Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Kumail Nanjiani Returns

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

Kumail Nanjiani (Night Thoughts, Eternals, The Big Sick) is an actor, writer, and comedian. Kumail returns to the Armchair Expert to discuss working out his foot trauma, addressing the plastic surgery rumors, and why the Schwarzenegger pump is better than sex. Kumail and Dax talk about the benefit of going towards what we perceive to be our limits, why the gym is the only place many men feel comfortable being physically intimate with one another, and wrestling with if he contributes to the discourse around men’s bodies that affected him as a kid. Kumail explains why learning to like himself has been more important than anything else, his belief that taking yourself too seriously is the death of comedy, and how long it took him to realize how sensitive he is.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Monica Mous. Hi. Today we have a returning guest. I think this is Camel's third appearance on the show.

He had a solo, he had Rob, he and Rob Men's Body episode. Rob Mac, as you'll hear. here. Which I still need to text him and find out. You do. I got to verify this claim. Shit. It's real.

I saw it online. Oh, it is. Yeah. Okay. Kumail Nangiani is an actor, a stand-up comedian, and a screenwriter. He was in the big sick, of course, Silicon Valley, Stuber, Eternals, the Lovebirds. And he has a stand-up special that is streaming right now on Hulu that I loved called Night Thoughts. Please enjoy our friend Kumal Nangiani.

He's an object Xxite. Your friend makes sparkly water? Nope. Do you know Ethan Soply? Yeah. You do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's a great guy, right? He's a great guy, yeah. He's magic. But he texts me out of the blue. He had a big body journey as well. He has the most impressive. He had the most impressive. He had the most impressive.

Yeah. Yeah, those before and afters. And I worked with him on without a paddle 21 years ago. He was probably down to 3.30 from 410. Four 10. That was his max. In Butterfly Effect, that movie, Monica's rejoining us for the listener. She squirted.

I did take the option to score it on Mike Kamel. Don't say that. Don't give in. This is how you hold on. I have to pick my battles here. Okay. Well, that one, though, that's not one of the ones you pick. It's not.

You'd be shocked. But Butterfly Effect. I don't know if you ever saw that movie. With Ashton? Exactly. Ethan was 4.10 in that. How tall is he? Like 6-2 max?

Yeah, he's big. He's probably 6-1 or 6-2. 4-10 is, you know. That's a massive amount of weight. I don't know where he's at now, but if you follow him on Instagram, he's like clearly in the 230 range. We used to go to the same gym, so I'd see it.

Is that how you know him? I know I'm just from being around. Being a famous actor. Kim and T. He did a movie called Unstoppable. With Denzel? The train movie? I don't know what that is.

Oh, there is. He's a very famous black actor. Oh, John David's dad. Yeah. So I think I'd met him through T.J. back then. We kind of stayed in touch. But then I would run into him at the gym. And I worked with his sister-in-law, Juliette Lewis.

Oh, yes. You know your stuff. Yeah. It's so good to see you. It's been a long time. I haven't seen you in a while. We've texted. But we haven't really seen you.

You look big. You look bad. What are you doing? Do you like it? Let's just start with Do you like it? I like it. When I hugged you, I felt it before I saw it. And did you like bounce off?

I'm worried people are like bouncing off. Emily says when I first did that, she was like, it's like having sex with the corner of a building. Yeah. And that's what it felt like hugging you. It was like trying to hug the corner of a building. Corner of a building. Yes, we text each other often.

You, Rob McElheny and I. Well, Rob Mac now. He changed his name. No, he did not. Legally changed his name. No, he didn't. Yep. In the credits, it says Rob Mac.

Wait. That's so helpful because I could never nail McElheny and I know. I know. I've never said it with confidence. My name is Nanjiani. Yeah. With McElheny, I don't know where to stress. Is it McElheny?

And I once said his name wrong on here and he texted me and he said, listen, this is how it works. After the C, if it's followed by a vowel, I'm checked out already. Right. I've already stopped paying attention. You want to know the rule? Like McDonald's, because it's the little C and then the consonant, that's Mac. I must have this wrong. If he changed his name to Mac.

Mick. Mick. Yeah, that's Mick. That's McDonald's. McDonald's. If there's a vowel. It's Mackleheny. I never knew that.

It's too much. I'm glad he went with Mac. That's wild that he did that. That's a huge identity shit. I believe he had a big press conference about it. Oh, he did. I don't think he had a conference, but I think there was a press release.

Okay. Wow. This is like Kirby was Baptista. Baptista. Well, it was hard. Yeah, she's great. What's it now? Kirby's now just Kirby.

Just one name Kirby? Yes, isn't it cool? She said she's second-guessed guested a bunch, but she's sticking with it. Just Kirby? Just Kirby. I think of Kirby as like Mario's buddy, the little cloud guy. I think of the vacuum cleaner from the 80s. I've never heard of that.

Beautiful machine. Heavy, heavy metal design. Vacuum cleaners in the 80s were gorgeous. They really were. Yeah, they were pretty. They weren't trying to be sleek. They were like, this is what I am. And even that very famous artists in New York who has a factory coots.

Oh. Some of his first work that got all the acclaim was just these loose light glass boxes with these vacuums in them. as they came from Sears. And those are worth millions. What was he saying? I have problems with this. To crawl into the mind of the artists. You have problems with objects being co-opted and called art.

Yeah. He didn't invent that vacuum cleaner. If he invented the vacuum cleaner and then put it in the box, that's fine. I used to be like that. And now I'm like, you know what? If anything gets a reaction, it can be art. So if they can articulate, like the big thing was a toilet seat hangarrow. on the wall. People were like, this is art. Well, in that context, I guess it is art. I'm not paying a million dollars for two vacuum chingers in a box of Lusite. But if you can get away with it, get away with it. But is this art. My foot. I bet to some people are there. Oh, that's true. My friend with the foot fetish.

We have a friend with a foot fetish. He does like that. Do you really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, feet is a thing. He's safe. He's married. There's no threat.

Yeah, there's no threat. But he is obsessed with Monica's feet. And he one time took a cheese grater to them. Yeah. And he really went at it. What do you? What do you go up to? What the fuck are you talking about?

He's safe. He just wants cheese grated in my feet. Your bar is so low, Monica. I know. I'm sorry. I have to take it where I can get it. Wait, was he getting the dry skin? Can you relate, though, Camille?

If like a girl wanted to do anything to my feet, I'm like, yes, thank you. But I didn't do it. I was receiving. I'm saying, I'm putting myself in your shoes. Oh. Literally. If a woman is interested in my feet, I'm just so flattered by that. I feel quite self-conscious about my feet.

I've been on set sometimes and they're like, all right, could you have your socks off for this? I'm like, I need a week's notice before you could do that. What do you do during the week to get them prepped? I have gotten pedicures. I've only gotten like two or three in my life. But it's such a good. It is heavenly. It has a bigger impact than it should.

It really makes you feel good. I got somebody who was massaging my jaw muscles today. And I started crying about my dead grandmother. I don't know what's stored over here. Like there's a lot going on in here, years of trauma right here. And so I'm like, I need to work this out. I just read something. Take it with a grain of salt.

I read it online. But it was explaining why the number was 67% of people have teeth loss nightmares or something with their teeth. I do. So it's the vast majority of people do. And the explanation is when you're very, very stressed, you clench your jaws a lot. And then when you go to sleep,

your brain's kind of figuring out why you're muscle so fatigued. That makes sense. So it's all about kind of clenching your jaw. And that's how it manifests itself at night, which is fascinating. I used to grind my teeth a lot. I have a mouth guard that I don't wear as often as I should. But honestly, massaging the jaw muscles has helped relieve that.

I once got Botox in my job. You did. I've heard about that. It was just keeping me up at night. When I was watching your stand-up special, I was really transfixed on what an incredible jaw line you have. And I was wondering, has getting jacked changed your jaw line? It has.

People think I got jaw implants or something. I have not. I have gotten no work done. All I did was I got Botox here. Yes. And then they were like, while you're here, you want to do your forehead too? And I did it. And I will never do it again.

Why not do it again? Because I could not move my eyebrows. and I have very expressive eyebrows and I had a job starting. I was going to act in something two months from then and I was just terrified what if I can't do it because what happens is if you can't make the faces, you stop feeling those things as well.

Yeah, they work both directions. And so that is really, I mean, you know, I've gotten micro-needling. I'm not a fucking monster. I want to make this clear. I don't have jaw implants. I guess I'll take it as a compliment. You and I are in the exact same situation,

which is when I saw your stand-up special and I saw that you addressed all this, I was like, oh my God. A, I love that this is happening. You're doing it in public. I've had these fantasies. Like, do I try to address a lot of this stuff you address in this stand-up special? You get some, not to get into it, you get some real unfair nonsense sometimes.

Well, thank you. Thank you. You should get into it. Yeah, I really do feel that. Okay. Well, great. But I will acknowledge, I'll be watching with my children, like parenthood we watch with them. And I'm going, oh, my God, dude, I look so different.

It looks like I got. some kind of jaw implant or something. There's something about your neck getting thicker. It changes your whole. It really does. Body fat goes down. I think that just changes the shape of your face. I had a friend today sent me a picture of us together from like 12 years ago.

And I was like, I look like a child. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, right out of the gates, Mani, for night thoughts, his stand-up special. Camel starts with like, okay, the muscles. What do you say? I say, don't be scared of the muscles. They can't hurt you.

They're decorative. Which is totally true. muscles are decorative. They haven't done an honest day. Work in their life. You've used them for nothing. I've used them for nothing except moving weight up and down 10 times. That is all they can do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you ever had the thought over the last six years or something? When I add up how many hours I've spent exercising, I have to admit I could have got a PhD in something. I mean, it's the most time I've committed to anything other than work. Wow. For me, it's going to be video games, then work, then working out. Probably. Probably. Yeah, but I work out still.

every day. I love it. I don't know how not to work out. If I'm stressed, like I had a rough day, three days ago, and I was like, I'm going to go work out because I cannot be around human beings right now. I'm certain I will feel at least marginally better than I currently do if I go do that thing. 100%. The only things that I know that I can do physically that make me feel better every single time working on and meditating. Sometimes it completely turns the day around. Sometimes it just helps three degrees, but it always 100% of the time helps. Okay. We do. just got into this like three episodes ago. It's so timely I saw your standup because I was saying to Monica, it's really hard to evaluate yourself from inside your own eyes, right? Of course. But there

are moments where I either see a picture or I see another dude that I can somehow acknowledge. That's my exact size. And I go, oh, I'm too big. I might look stupid. But then I go, but I'm not going to change because this is the result of this thing I have to do or I want to do or it gives me however much comfort or something about it. These are now just, the results. I was aiming for something for a while, but then the thing happened, and now it is a confusing experience. Do you have that? I do. I think the way people see me is not how I see myself. You know, when I started doing stand-up again, Emily was like, the biggest, weirdest thing for you is going to be people experience it differently on stage. So the shit you used to do, you can't really do

anymore. So when I was like skinny and I would do like fake arrogance, and now I can't do fake arrogance on stage because it comes off as real arrogance. So I can play with that because I do feel like I'm very self-aware about this. I did have a casting director. recently pull me aside and go you gotta bring this down because it does limit bring down the muscles

and how did you take that what thoughts sprung off from there also is it racist well I mean how much time you got I think there's some element of that

it's weird because there was some of that reaction to me getting buff and I can't not think that that was an aspect of it that like you know

stay in your lane kind of thing. Like that's not what we want from you kind of thing. I don't know. I can't guess to it. But it just feels like that's maybe a part of it. My reaction to the casting director saying that to me was at first it was panic. One I was like, have I missed out on parts because of this? And I can think of one situation where I did. But I get so much out of it. And so I have started, this is about a month ago, trying to work out differently because I do need it. And it's not doing cardio instead because the lifting of heavy weights does something for me. Like lifting big heavy things affects me, makes me feel my body differently.

And I enjoy that feeling too much. And I'll argue because I do both. So if I go hike six miles, I don't for the rest of the day have this great feeling in my body. I have kind of a tired feeling. My back's a little sore. When I have a great workout, I feel the fucking Schwarzenegger pump. I was just going to say the arm of Schwarzenegger pump. The pump is better than sex.

It is like just for all day long. Oh, you feel like all. It's like a little tight. Yeah, I love it. I'm addicted to it. Yeah, that's just the right amount. When you do a big workout in the next day, you got the doms, you know, you're like, oh, yeah. Last time we talked about rhabdo.

Oh, that's the dream. I've convinced myself I had it a couple times. I always think I have it. And I've not worked out. My favorite feeling, I mean, I don't know how you're listening to this, laying on a bench with a weight above my body that's like, if I lose focus and drop this, I am going to the hospital. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it forces me to get out of my body. I'm not thinking about my problems or the thing I said wrong at the party or whether this thing is going to get picked up or how that audition, whatever it is. I have to respect this weight right now because if I don't, I'm going to... It makes you present.

Yeah. Exactly, which for a lot of us is a big challenge. So that's what I get the most out of it is that I'm really right there staring at this thing. Same with meditation. It is the same thing. It's giving you presence. You should get into motorcycle racing.

That too does that same thing. thing. If you think about what you have to do tomorrow, you're going to go off the track. That's too scary. Okay. We'll work on that. It's one step too far. I'm going to add one thing. So I relate to all that. And then the other thing I do like about it and why I don't want to change my workout is so much of your life is so subjective. And these are just straight numbers. It's like, okay, I do 15 sets of this weight. And when I can't, I know I've declined. And when I exceed that or it's easy, it's an objective evaluation of myself every single day. That's such a huge part of it all through the pandemic. The only way I could progress

was in the gym. Nothing else was moving. But I could be like, I could lift this weight five times today. Last week, I could only lift it four times. So it's really being like, oh, I have made progress in this thing and it is verifiable and objective. That's a big part of it. It is. And just the feeling of doing something that you didn't think you were capable of doing. I think a lot of us limit ourselves all the time with like, I could do that. I can't do that. By the way, I love. Love Maru coffee. We love it. We love it here.

It's really good. Yes. I used to live right by it. ADHD. No. I bet a little bit. I feel it a little bit. I'm sorry.

I can't get up with that way. I'm sorry I said it. But we limit ourselves more than I think a lot of times the situation limits us or our environment limits us. So I think just being able to go past what you can see if to be your limits in any aspect of your life helps you do that in other aspects. Yes. I agree. And then it just builds. this kind of sustained confidence.

Well, we'll get into all the men of the other. I also have this thing. This is going to sound very arrogant. When I'm really feeling myself, I like just how I look in the mirror. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that, too. To your point, I put all these limits on myself.

It was like, all through my 20s, I was like, well, genetically, I don't have a six-pack. Some guys have them, which is true. There were kids in my school that just were jacked. 15-year-olds were six-packs, for sure. Because I didn't have that just out of the case with no effort. decided I genetically was incapable of that. So that's one cool reward.

It's like, oh, I'm capable of more things. But moving through the world as a dude with muscles, the reaction from other dudes is almost universal. And I love it. I love that men touch my arm and they squeeze me. I just love it. This is so funny because I was telling Emily about this. I was like, guys will comment on my body all the time. And she's like, they're hitting on him.

Like, they're not hitting on me. They're just commenting on my body. And then we were in New York for a few months. So you were out and about on the streets with more people. And she saw it happen like 35 times where just obviously guys who are not hitting on me, commenting on very specific parts of my body. It's so primitive. At the gym with dudes is the only time men can be physically intimate with other men.

Talking about, man, look at your quads, like spotting someone when they're squatting. You know, like right back there. Exactly. It's the only time. Oh, my God. It's like a standing spoon. It's the only time men feel comfortable being physically intimate. Unless a wrestling or some other sports.

All sports, in a sense, are like homoerotic. We're so starved for any kind of affection. You are. What would happen if that got cured for all men? That it was like, it's fine. You guys can just touch each other and hug and be affectionate. So much would be fixed. You're totally right.

Of course, I've been married almost 20 years, but people were like, did you get more attention from girls when you got buff? I was like, no. More from guys. Yes. Zero change in how women react. No, it's just for each other. I actually have the opposite question.

Did Emily feel like we got to talk about this? Because Dax did a show with his best friend, Aaron, and I was on it, and someone wrote in and said, my partner, my husband is starting to get really, really, really buff and going to the gym all the time and drinking protein shakes and doing all this and I'm uncomfortable with it. Well, one thing I want to ask is, was this woman upset about how,

buff he was getting or how much time and energy he was devoting to getting buff. Whoa. That's what we debated. So it was just a right in. So we couldn't ask any follow-up questions. Right. Because the obsession I get being like, hey, this is too much. Well, that was my point.

It's like, is he not available for his duties as a father, as a husband, as anything? If that's an issue, then that's obvious. If it's, I don't know this person, I'm afraid that this new version of them isn't going to love me. I can relate to that and I have a lot of sympathy for that. But there's so many reasons. For Emily, she did say she's like, if we went on a first day and you were this buff, I think there was something really wrong with you.

Right. Wow. Just because she knows me and has known me for over a decade that this happened, she was like, that's not going to come out. I really fucking agree. It's so green, dude. Yeah, we did spill. What are you drinking straight chlorophyll?

It's 22 hours of weird. We're just converting sunlight into food. It's a yummy macha. I don't like macha. It feels like falling face first on the ground. Camel is getting too. Yeah, people think it's grass. I think it tastes like gross grass.

Everyone's talking about Kumail's muscles and not dax as he's getting upset. What was that bad of an interview? It was like every time it was about you guys, set myself on fire or something. Oh my gosh. No, but this is interesting, I think. Emily understood that it meant since I was a little kid, I wanted to be a certain way and I wasn't. And now I get to be the way I wanted to be. And there's a lot to unpack there.

But she always trusted me to go on whatever journey I wanted. Now, there are times where she's like, I like the way you look right now. And it's generally not the biggest and most cut I've been. It's almost never that. It's like when I'm a little bit softer, she's like, I think to me this is the ideal male physique that I want. And that's how I know it's time to diet. That's my cue to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not trying to impress you, honey. I'm trying to impress other men. I already got you. I just wonder when you're allowed to say to your partner, you know, this is a bigger question. You marry someone or you fall in love with someone. and then they change.

People change over time. We all do. And is it okay to say, you know what? I don't like it. How would you feel about that if someone didn't like their partner gaining weight or something? No, I'm including all of them. Yeah, now that's very tricky. How do you do it?

And is it allowed, if you're hearing someone say a gaining weight, you'd be like, absolutely not. They're not allowed to say that. They have to accept you. But what's funny is both. attempts to address that would be veiled under the same thing, which would be health. Sure. Concern trolling. Yep.

Yeah. Oh, is that what it's called concern trolling? It's called concern trolling. We're like, are you okay? You're looking a little skinny or whatever. Internet is full of it. Interesting. Yeah.

So I've heard people try to act like what I'm doing is somehow not healthy. Obviously, there's a way to take it where it's not healthy, but you look very healthy. Nothing about you is like, oh, I'm concerned for this person. The one thing that I do think about and struggle with as public. figures is when I was a little kid and I would see buff men, it would upset me that I didn't look like that. And now am I contributing to men feeling bad about themselves? Little teenage boys feeling bad about themselves because the decision I made was very personal. But I do have to acknowledge the fact that as a public figure, I am out there and people do see, you know,

you Google me, the first five pictures are all shirtless. Is that making someone feel bad about themselves? That's interesting. Can I counter that? Sure, please. You're a brilliant improv artist. You're a hysterical comedian. If someone's watching you do comedy that aspires to do comedy and can't do it as good as you and they feel like shit, should you stop being really funny? I mean, literally, should you limit your potential in any domain because it might make someone else feel bad? No.

Should you write less good if you're a fucking author? No, that's crazy. You can't diminish your own self out of fear of what the fallout might be. you might also inspire, that might be 10% of the reaction and 90% of people might go on a health journey that makes them live 10 years longer. I've had a lot of people say that. For me, I always say like, just be healthy, of course, and just be the version of you that you can like. Often, it doesn't have to do anything with how you look or whatever. I'm obviously to be healthy.

That's good. But learning to love yourself, I think, is more important than anything. And for me, sadly, I have been on this journey of being. like I like myself and part of that has had to do with my body transformation. It's a little unavoidable and I wish it wasn't part of it, but I know it. Well, listen, you're exacting control and outcome on a world that is very hard to exact control and outcome. So that's very, it's very satisfying.

I have a real control thing. So I sort of have an obsessive personality and I'm very lucky in that I know it just doesn't go towards stuff that would ruin my life. You're not addicty. Not addicty, but I feel. it when I'm gambling. I feel that. The tiger. So I have to be very careful gambling. Like I can't really play.

Sometimes, you know, I don't really play sports. But if I'm like in any kind of competitive situation, I start to have that come out. You know where it gets awkward? Like, hey, dude, we're just playing a fucking board game. How are you at your video games? Are you yelling at people on the headsets and stuff? No. Are you anonymous when you play? Do you play? I don't play online anymore. You don't. Okay.

I only play with friends and I play with Emily. Emily and I play together. And with Emily, I've learned to sort of because she's like, be an asshole. You cannot talk to me like this. We are still married. Can you think of something you said to her at one point in the heat of a video game battle? Whenever I go, you got a, she's like, you can't say you got to me anymore. Like, honey, you got to. We'll just playing this game right now. And she's very good and we can hang, you know, but sometimes we play when we're high. Yeah, sure. And she'll be like, where are you? And I'm like, if you hit up on the controller, you got to know by now. And she's like,

Gotta stop saying gotta. I'm like, Honeymoon played this game for three fucking months. You're exasperated. Yeah, I do get that. Short views. It's just, you know, it's an intense situation. Sure, I get it. I'm trying to save the fucking planet right now.

That's right. I need you to know how to look up the map. Yeah, the game isn't called Get Groceries. Exactly. It's called a duty. Yeah, it's called a duty, man. We're saving the world from the Nazis right now. I can't teach you how to like unfold your map every five minutes.

Okay, so in my dream world, of the structure of this, like, I'd love to explore how we feel about it. And then I want to confront how other people feel as its own little piece. I love that. But to continue with it a little bit, because this takes up a lot of my thought, and I love checking in with you. I love talking to you about this because very few people want to get into it. Yeah, yeah.

Sandler one time told me, and I'll never forget it. I'd gotten in really good shape for this movie 20 years ago with Kristen called When in Rome, I played an underwear model and I had gotten in good shape. And he came up to me, he's like, Buff isn't funny, buddy. Just remember. I was like, yeah, God, right? And then we all know Carrot Top as a trope. I've heard that a lot.

I disagree with that. But what is Caratop as a trope? He's a for real bodybuilder. Oh, I didn't know that. Jacked. And people bring him up constantly, like, don't be a carrotop. You just hear Caratop a lot. Yeah, I know.

You hear Caratop a lot for many reasons. I've never heard about Caratop more. And I'm saying to the person, not anything about Caratop, do you think Caratop got less funny when he got buff? Or did you just never think Caratop was funny? There you go. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah. What do you think of that moment?

How's that? We can almost see his penis. Well, he's going to say his slacks are. They could come up a little bit. They could come up a team. I don't need to know that the carpet matches the draught. The mom's pubis is on full display. But I understand he wanted to show off the arrows.

Okay. But he got carried away. Now, here's the thing. The arrows. First of all, very nice body. It's not from me because, yes. It's too, it's the hugging the corner of the building thing again. But I think it's nice.

Now, looking at this for the first time, I can understand what they mean when they say, how can that guy be funny? It's because whoever created this body, not God, like who did this to themselves, is taking things very seriously. You have to take life very seriously to look like that. That's an interesting point.

And that's the only good point I've heard. about this exact thing. However, John Cena's very, very funny. He is like super jacked. And I think you can take certain parts of yourself seriously and not other parts. I truly don't think I'm less funny because I'm buffed. Because I think you have to always have a level of self-awareness. Like he has to understand that that's a little bit ridiculous.

A lot. Yeah. When I put my pictures out, I understood that it was a little bit ridiculous. I understand it's a little bit ridiculous that I am. now. So I think you have to have that level of awareness. It's when you take yourself too seriously, I think that is the death of comedy. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing that is the death of comedy is people wanting to be cool. Exactly. Comedians can be cool, but someone who wants to be cool and a comedian, I don't have any time for that. I agree. I will see, though, one aspect that is true is

generally comedy works best when you are put upon. Sure, low status. Exactly. So if Caratops stand there like that. And then his boss is denigrating him and he's a foot and a half shorter and is a mess. You kind of don't give a fuck. You're like, oh, if he wanted, he'd crush him. But you know what? Did you watch Peacemaker? Not to go back to John C. that again? Yes. Yes. He is the jackus guy in there. He's like a superhero. But he is put upon the whole time. That's true. But it required people with superpowers to outstatus him in a way. And he's so dumb. His stupidity is his Achilles. Right. So yes, we could play big dumb idiots. Like DC Cab.

Would be really fun to play on a big dumb idiot. I just don't think. I mean, you could, but you'd really have to suspend your disbelief. That's another. I mean, we know you're not a big dumb idiot. Are you saying John Sina is a big dumb idiot? No, I love John Sina. I love John Sina.

Great guess. Go check out that episode. So talented. You played a lot of dumb idiots at the beginning of your career. Yeah, you're very good at it. I mean, idiotocracy. That's such a great performance. Real dumb.

You're a real dumb idiot. You played a lot of them. You played a lot of them. I specialize in dummies, yeah. But I bet now... It'd be less fun. No, no. I bet it would be harder

because you now have shown yourself as your real self that is smart. And you have comedy specials that are smart. People know you as smart. It might be hard to be like, he's acting dumb. I think acting dumb is a difficult thing.

And a few people who are smart can do it. Adam Sandler is one of them. He's obviously very smart. Did you guys see Jay Kelly? Not yet. No. He's so good in it. Really?

Yeah. And not a dumb idiot at all. And if you know him, he's not a dumb idiot at all. But he's good at playing dumb idiots. Have you guys seen this movie called Twinless? It's a small movie came out this year. This actor, director, writer, wrote it, stars in it. And Dylan O'Brien.

Do you guys know who Dylan O'Brien is? Dylan O'Brien is a phenomenal actor. If you look him up, you'd be like, oh, that guy. He's like, you know, young guy, he's like 30. Very smart guy. Always plays smart guys. He plays a dumb guy in this. And it's an incredible performance.

And he's like subtly dumb. He's not comedy dumb. He's just dumb in ways people that you know. And so I was talking to him about it. I was like, how were you able to do this? Because that is something I think about a lot. I'd love to play a dumb guy. It's a very tricky thing to be able to do.

What was your trick to doing? So I think the key is you have to think you're much smarter than everyone you're talking to. Interesting. You have to be condescending as a dumb guy. Frito's like, are you stupid? He thought everyone was stupid. Wow. And that he was a genius.

Right. It's the Dunning Cougar effect. is. Yes. Oh, that's funny. That's a good half. The less you know, the more you think you know. It's like what they say to act drunk, you have to try and act sober.

Which that one alludes me a little bit. I've had to play drunk and I hate it. I've played drunk a few times and I think one of the keys I learned was what kind of drunk is this? Is it angry drunk? Is it happy drunk? Is it stupid drunk? Sloppy. And then you lean into that.

So if it's happy, you lean into the happy beyond like any kind of reasonable thing. Do you know what does a really good job? Evan Peters. Is he in Maryland? of Eastdown? Oh, I love that show he was in. There's a show where he plays drunk in one scene where he hits on his partner.

And it's a really remarkable scene because he goes through every kind of drunk person which is like the drunk person who's down on themselves. The drunk person who has too much confidence who's too sad. Emotional, yes. Yes. In all in one scene,

you see him do all those different kinds of drunk and it's a really, really great performance. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking the pockets of your jeans before doing laundry? Classic oversight.

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Like, oh, I've got to do this fucking thing. That's the thing I've learned in my relationship with Emily is that all the stuff that I hide from her, like I'm sad, I'm scared. often the anxiety of starting a new job, right? That was just mine. If I say it out loud, it makes it real. I say it to her and it actually takes its power away. That's the biggest thing I've learned. One, I do it as a way of apology like, hey, I'm in a weird place.

I'm starting this job on Tuesday and I'm a little bit nervous to work. Pretty certain they fucked up by casting me. That's where I'm feeling today. All I have to do is get to rap before they find out. Every set I go to, I think of Eric Stoltz getting fired from back to the future. That dude shot six. weeks. He shot six weeks. And then they fucking fired him. And he's collecting his boss as he's walking out. Everybody else has a job. The grip has a job. You're the only one who doesn't have a job.

Two hundred people. You're the main guy. And you're the only one who doesn't have a job. No, that's rough. And good for him. The fact that he can come back and be in Pulp Fiction and be like, fucking so stellar. Yeah. Okay. Now let's talk about the reaction. So what happened was I talk about this in the specials. But do you know Michael Rosenbaum? Do you guys know? I know very, very well. So I did his podcast and we talked about me. That's what it all came from is Rosenbaum's? Yeah, it came from Rosenbaum's podcast. And he felt so bad about it. I was like, dude, honestly, this is a fucking gift. Thank you. I know how to end my special now, you know? I didn't know. So it all started from that. What happened? He was talking about the heartbreak of Eternals and it sending him to

therapy. There was a big reaction backlash. And I understand them saying, the privilege of the bad reviews send you to therapy. And I talk about 4.15 minutes. Oh my God. Yeah, it was a lot. It's also, you know, men feel weird about going to therapy. There's a lot wrapped up in it. I'll give you all the gory details. I put those pictures out December of 2019 while I was shooting Eternals. I was going into

Christmas. We were going to shoot until February, but I was like, I don't know, this might be the only time I looked like this. I got two weeks off and pastries in London are really fucking good. I don't know if I'm ever going to look like this. So I asked the trainer and I was like, hey, get some baby oil. I'll get a Let's get these pictures going. Yeah, because I don't know if I'm ever going to look like this. Yeah, could be the last time of your entire life.

Yeah, so I wanted these pictures. I did it. I put the pictures out. Initially, the response was really, really, really good. But then what happened was in 2020, the pandemic happened in March. My wife and I took it very, very seriously. We didn't leave the house. She's got an immune condition.

So I was in a real bad place. Stills? Adult onset, Stills disease. And now she's been diagnosed with another thing, which turns out is probably a combination of those two. A lot of things were. finding out, not to this is a whole ADHD. We're finding out a lot about autoimmune diseases because of research into HIV.

Because when you have HIV and your immune system starts fucking up. So now there's a lot of research into this. And there's a lot of therapies for this that are way better. So Emily's on a new medication that has changed our lives. So we're in all the time. And on Christmas, we got this gingerbread house. We made it. It's just a picture of me sitting next to a gingerbread house that my wife took and we hadn't

seen a human being in a long. time. Now it's January 2021. And I think part of what happened is people were like, well, 2020 sucks, 2020 sucks. 2021 would be better. Now we're in 2021 and there's no vaccine in sight. And we still kind of leave the fucking house. So I think particularly January 2021, people were in a real fucking place and spraying it everywhere. I think I was one of the victims of this. I was watching The Crow with Brandon Lee, RIP. I'd taken an edible. I was high out of my mind watching this movie that I used to love as a kid, watching it now being like, do I still love it?

And a friend of mine texted me, he's like, I'm so sorry about what's going on online. First of all. Public service announcement to all friends. Never do that. No. Okay, so you posed this picture. I posted this picture a few weeks before.

So my friend texted me, I was like, what are you talking about? And he was like, oh, you don't know? So I go on Twitter and there are literally 10,000 responses. And it's that picture of me, and I'm just smiling with the thing. I'm high. And you could see the way I'm sitting.

I just look like I have a big job. jawline. And it's just people making fun of my appearance. Literally 10,000 comments. It's so hard. It fucking destroyed me because as a kid growing up, I was very insecure about my looks. And I've done all this work to move away from that. And this made me feel like a little kid. I'm watching this movie high out of my mind and this is happening.

And there were two full days of it sort of trending on Twitter. And it was like a big thing that people were just happy dunking on the way I looked physically. Gifts and memes were going around and all this. this stuff. Again, in the grand scheme of things, probably not a huge thing, but I was very aware of it. And so I would tell Emily, every day, I would check in with it. I was like, I'm not going to go on Twitter. I'd be like, is it still happening? She's like, yeah, it's still happening. It's still happening. Yeah, it's still happening. And I remember it took like two full days of that because I think people were

frustrated and needed to take it out. So that started with that one specific picture and then it went on to pictures of me being buff. It set off a cottage industry. It set off a cottage industry, calling me grotesque and monstrous. I talk about all this special now. So that, That was the big backlash January 2021. And I think like all these things, it has more to do with what they're going through than what I'm going through. But I really felt very singled out and attacked for that. Again, people have much bigger problems than this. But for me, it was a pretty intense thing.

Yes. So that was like the backlash to my transformation that ended up happening a little bit over a year after the initial pictures came out. Interesting. And you were also dealing, I'm sure, with had a turtles come out yet? No. At least you have that positive thing in your mind. Dude, that's basically your safety net during all this, right? The turtles kept me going all through pandemic where I was like, wait for this fucking thing to come on.

I'll be laughing. We'll talk about this body in three months. A hundred percent the entire time I was like, wait until this comes out. And part of that, it's totally my fault. I'd put too much into this thing that I should not have put anything into. I had a great time making that movie. Meaning you put too many expectations. Too many expectations.

It's going to change my career. We've had so many of the same moments. It's really wild. It's really wild thinking like you're from Pakistan, saw a guy get stabbed to death in the street when you were a kid. Shot. Shot, sorry. Seemingly, there'd be no parallels.

But I similarly had directed chips. It tested through the roof. They commissioned a sequel before it came out to write it. Dude. And it was you and Michael Pania. He's so good. And I got hired immediately by Warner Brothers to take over a Scooby-Doo. I'm getting asked to come fix some scrubs.

and maybe direct another thing. And I go, ah, the next 10 years of my life, I'm going to be writing and directing. I'm positive of that for like a year and a half. To the degree that's in my DNA that my identity is I'm a writer-director and I'm going to do this for the next decade. And even greedily, I'm like, yeah, no, get this on this and this on this. I've modeled out how much money I'm going to make in the next 10 years. This is exactly how I was.

And so in one Friday, I find out the 10-year game plan is gone. Did that movie not do well? No. Like, well, certainly the sequel's not getting made. All these other things and meanings, they just shrivel up. What we both did was build up this thing. Because we want safety. It is truly a devastating experience.

Yeah. It's my fault. I'm taking full responsibility. No one should feel bad for me. But I did plan out my entire life based on something. And that really changed on a Friday afternoon, which I think a lot of people suffer setbacks. But they're pretty dramatic in our business. That is pretty dramatic because people's lives change over.

You had signed on to do six Marvel movies. I'd sign around to do six Marvel movies, a video game and a theme park. Oh, my God. So, of course you thought the next decade of your life was that. The next decade of my life, I'm going to be doing those movies. And then between, you know, one for you, one for me. I'll do like little indie. So people think when they hear that, they understand me, think like, oh, boo, who, you

won't have that thing. But they're missing. The pain and hurt is my safety just vanished. It's not about being famous or whatever. It's just like, I knew what I was going to do for 10 years. As if I were a physician that knew I could do my job for the next 10 years. and I found out I can't. Especially for us, it's tricky.

One, we're getting to live our dreams and suddenly our dreams are getting bigger and now I'm going to get to do this. It's self-serving, but it really is. You're like, the purpose of my life is to make stuff and now I'm going to get to do it. How fucking exciting. And it happens with comedy guys, I think,

specifically where, you know, you hit and then you get a window, right? And sometimes that window closes. And when that window closes, you don't know if it's opening up again. It happens to actress, too. I mean, look at Brendan Fraser. So many years, he's,

He didn't and then he won a fucking Oscar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But that's rare. But that's why we love it so much because it is so brutal. And you generally get shown the door that never reopens. Exactly. Exactly.

It is brutal. I mean, we've picked a very difficult business to be in and a very vulnerable. You're naked. You know, if you write something, you direct something, you put it out there. You're like, here, this is the inside of my body. What will you do with it? And people are like, we don't like it. We will stab your spleen.

Well, it's also people forget that actors are very fragile. It's actually what makes the actor good. Pre-requisite. We're very sensitive. So sensitive. And it's a part of what makes acting doable. But then you become famous and people don't give a fuck. No, they don't.

And they think it's okay to tear you down. Yeah. Whatever, I understand. I think we're coming from the same place. I don't want one person to feel bad for me. No. You cannot feel bad for someone, but you also don't have to be a part of hurting them.

Well, that's become part of it now is this dunk session that goes on where people get very excited. Again, boo-hoo actors. But it is interesting. You're exactly right. Most actors are very sensitive. It took me years to understand that. And it wasn't until a few years ago that I was like, I was a sensitive 14-year-old and

now I'm a sensitive 40-whatever-year-old. Yeah, exactly. Yes. The only question mark I had when I heard the story is Emily was a practicing therapist for nine years or something. No, no, no. Six years? Yeah, I would say for six years.

She didn't Chicago. She didn't New York. That's it. Okay. North Carolina, the Chicago, the New York. Okay, great. But you were married to a therapist. Yeah, in the beginning. So the notion that it took you so long.

It was after Eternals came out. And you're like, I'm never going to work again. It wasn't even really that. It wasn't external circumstance. I understood it's my reaction to the external circumstance that's fucking me up. And I'm hurting myself by thinking the same thing over and over and over and over. I remember being on this flight, this might be too much information, but we're on a flight. we're doing like a world press tour for Eternals.

Being on this flight in first class, laying in the bed. Yes. I've got Wi-Fi and I'm just laying there refreshing rotten tomatoes over and I remember in that moment being like, this is not good for me. Not healthy. This is horrible. Yeah. By all accounts, you know, I'm in this awesome bed.

I just ate a full three-course meal on a fucking airplane flying to London. Right. You've made yourself miserable. This is the most miserable. Yeah, you took this chance to feel great and you made yourself miserable. What's great is even though you're not an addict, you've experienced what it's like when you're driving to the dealer's house and you're about to relapse, which is like, there's a bad idea. I know exactly the feeling you're talking about. Before you've made the mistake where you know you're about.

But you're in route to do it. Wow. What is that like? Can I ask you? What is that like? Because I think I know that feeling. Yes. The frontal lobe is going, don't do this.

It's going to end in four days, the wreckage. And then there's this body surge of endurance. I guess emanating from your reptilian brain that's just like, it's giving you a little hit of what's going to come. And it's like this battle between this very visceral feeling and then this intellectual debate. And for me, just that surge of endorphins wins. You go, I'm going to be really disappointed myself, but I also in 15 minutes, I'm not going to give a fuck about that disappointment. For a very short period of time. Exactly.

No, it all. You know, yeah, it never works. That's where the shame comes in after. Because you knew better. Yeah, you're like, I knew this was going to happen and I still did it and I can't stop. That is so powerlessness. When you're driving to the dealers and you're like, I know I shouldn't do this, but you're going. Were you ever able to turn around?

I have accomplished that maybe three or four times. It's been more that I'm at the bar. I decide, I'm already there. I'm with friends. You're at the bar. I'm at the bar and I decide, you know what, there's no way I'm going to go through

every Christmas without getting buzzed again. I make these really over-the-top declarations. Like, am I really going to live the rest of my life without getting buzzed at a bar Christmas with the Christmas lights on? You know, it's like, this is some essential right of mine that's been taken. And then I've started to build the case, and I have been able to leave there.

But if I've gotten in my car and I'm in route to the dealer, I'm going to get there. It's already decided. It's getting in the car. Oh, my God. That is really interesting. So, like, when you open up the phone, you're already in the car on the way. But it's weird because it's a negative feeling. But it does feel like a certain kind of self-harm that I had gotten addicted to.

There was an addiction to feeling that hurt, that anger at myself and everyone around me. It is like a very living feeling, you know, it's a very amazing. Because now this is another fun thing that comes from AA, which is self-aggrandizement and self-pity are the exact same sides of two points. Could not agree more. What feels like, oh, poor me is really indulgent in self-aggrandizing. It's like, A, you're too important in the planet. No one gives a fuck about your movie. No one knows.

You've elevated all this stuff. That was helpful for me to connect like, well, I would never be self-aggrandizing. I'm too ashamed to do that. I'll hide that even if I think that. But for some reason, I'll explore self-pity. and victimhood. And once I connected, like,

those are the same fucking thing, bro. I was able to largely curb the self-pity cycle. After all that stuff and going through therapy, and I talk about this and the special, for me,

the biggest project of the last few years has been trying to divorce my experience of making something from the result, from the reaction to it, right? Yes.

Ideally, I walk off set and I never think about it again. Now it's fucking impossible because a year and a half from now, you've got to be doing interviews talking about this thing, you know?

My stand-up special is not that because I really feel like I've made that. I fully control it. I live and die by it. With this, I'm dying by other people's mistakes as well. Yes. And so I've been doing work to cut off from that, but, and now this is going to sound like me

showing off a couple years ago, I got nominated for an Emmy. And the amount of happy that it made me, I just happened to be with my parents. I had not expected it at all. I woke up in the morning at 11 in New Jersey at my parents' house in my pajamas about to eat a delicious breakfast. And I have 100 text messages on my phone. And I'm like, guys, I just got nominated for an Emmy. The amount that it made me happy, I was like, oh,

I'm still stuck in this. It's still a trap. I mean, all day I was just replaying. This is so embarrassing. The moment when I saw I'm replaying like scrolling. I'm replaying saying it to my parents. And I understood I'm still stuck in that same fucking thing. That is probably the hardest part of being healthy about this experience, in my opinion, is turning down the praise.

You can't take the praise and turn down the negative. You either have to turn the whole thing off. And turning it off is impossible. I think you have to turn the volume down the best you can. I don't think Jonah would mind me saying this, but I was texting Jonah about us about to have Phil Stutz on his therapist. And we were going to have him on because I saw the dock and I was so moved by the doc. Yeah, I saw the doc. And I sent him this text going like, fuck, dude, that moment where you have the image of yourself, your shadow, this little kid.

And Stutz is like, he wants you to bring him along on this fun ride. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah. So I was texting with him and I was detecting this reservation. from his side about this praise I was giving. And then he just said it. And I thought it was so fucking cool. He's like, dude, I love this.

Weirdly, this is as bad for me as you saying. Very good self-awareness. Yes. And I'm like, dude, I strive to turn down praise when I don't see it in the immediate future. It's so true. He's exactly right. It's the same thing. But you know what's hard in our business, praise or bad reviews?

It's not just how we deal with it. It does affect our careers. It really does have a practical impact. I make a movie. It makes money. Suddenly, I get to do more movies. I make a movie, gets bad reviews, doesn't make money. Windows starts closing, you know.

So that's the hard thing for me to reconcile that. It's not just my reaction to it. My life is practically affected by the reaction. Absolutely. You're forgetting that you're capable of making your own stuff. You're actually in a rare group that's capable of making their own stuff that can do shows. You can get back to you. in control. And you should do that maybe more.

100%. I was talking to Mike Barbigli and I was like, you know, you and I kind of went in a way in completely opposite paths. He had his first movie that was a big success. And he was like, I'm just going to keep doing this. And I went and started doing other people's stuff. Yeah. Right. But I will say to, I think the division in my head has to be, yes, one is a practical outcome of what will be my income and what will be my opportunity. And that's true. That needs to be observed. but the stuff that's hurting me and making me ruminate is am I lovable if I'm a failure? Am I lovable if I'm not spectacular? Am I lovable if I'm not funny?

Am I lovable if I'm in bad shape? Am I lovable? Am I worthy of your attention and being seen by you if I'm not spectacular? I just talked to my mom this morning about this. And like that's my hurdle. I don't think I'm worth observing unless I'm spectacular. I think that's so true. I think the biggest thing we have to learn is that you inherently are worthy of

It's so hard to believe. It's everyone's hurdle. It is. It's not just you or you or actors. Everyone is doing everything they can to get the most loved. You are worthy of love. Regardless. Period.

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not so certain. That's the whole sentence, man. I know. You are worthy of love. Period.

I'm only now learning that I need to lean into the fear, you know. Like I've all my life been running away from pain and running away from fear and working out taught me. I got to chase the pain. And now I'm realizing I got to chase the fear. The things that scare me are the things I need to do. Okay. Now I want to theorize because I had some takeaways.

Again, I can't put too fun of a point on the fact that I really loved your special. Oh, thanks, buddy. It's called night thoughts. And boy, did you describe three of my seven nights a week. As sleep, Monica's heard it at nauseam. I think I have no anxiety. I don't have waking anxiety in general. I go to bed, 3 a.m.

Time to fucking think about something. don't care about once I'm awake. Exactly. Can I give one joke of years away? Because I think Monaco will love it. He wakes up and he writes down his stupid night thoughts. And one of them is, why do white people get all colors of eyes and hair? And everybody else always gets black eyes and black hair.

That's a very fair thought. Black people, Asian people, Hispanic people. We just get black eyes and black hair. I know. It is crazy when you pointed out. It's crazy. What is going on? I hate it.

It's not fair. It's adding to the unfairness. It's insane. Oh. Yeah. Now I'm going to be thinking about that. That joke has gotten a weird reaction a couple of times. Oh, has?

Yeah, like the comedy store. Somebody got angry at me and they got kicked out. Oh, what I said? Everybody needs to relax. Did a white person get mad or? Yeah, sure. Of course. Sure.

Sure, it was a white person. What does Joyce say? The Caucasian. Yeah. Like the audacity of Caucasians. The Caucasian. Wow. What was his objection?

You were saying that's racist. I was like, you know, he was very. He was playing in that scene. He was like, yeah, this is the racist. He was drunk. This is the night. This is the night when I'm drunk, I got racist. And he probably regretted it.

I don't know if he regretted it. Later, the security guy who kicked him out was like, he was trying to connect to me. But like, that guy's fucking racist, right? Oh, my God. It was like, no, get the fuck out. The security guy was white. Wow. I'm so glad you watched it.

Oh, I loved it. I loved it. When you get into the reaction, you kind of synthesize the reaction into five. I've really common threads that people were barking at you online about. And I've given this a ton of thought because I have a different version of it unrelated to muscles, which is I've been with Kristen for 20 years. And there have been hundreds of articles about why is she with this guy? What?

Really? List of top 10 hot girls with ugly guys. That is so disgusting. I've been dealing with that less now since the podcast. But for the first 12, 13 years we were together, there were hundreds of these lists of. ugly guys with hot girls and I'm always on it. The worst.

And my reaction was like, A, I'm so hurt and insecure when you say that. Then I'm defensive and arrogant. I'm like, go meet my other girlfriends. They've all been hot. Fuck you, right? I have this defensiveness. Yeah, sure. And then when I calm down, I really get into it.

And I'm like, you know what's so interesting? I think I know what's going on. And it's just beat into us in elementary school and in school, which is like, there's strata. You're born into them. someone shan't migrate north or south. It's disruptive to this whole system that we have been formatted in. And so I thought, because again, primarily girls aren't saying christen's with this ugly guy. Guys are saying chrins with this ugly guy.

They're threatened. And I think, shouldn't that be encouraging? Even if that's your conclusion like this four got this 10, isn't that life affirming and positive? Like, doesn't that say you could achieve any? I thought it would be comforting to dudes like me that are normal. I think it's the opposite. And I think that was some of the reaction to me getting buffed. Thank you.

Because I mapped on that. I get the muscles thing less than you do. I certainly see in the comments, dudes going so fucking roided out. Always if I'm with Kristen in a photo, then the guys come out hard. This roided out motherfucker. For the record, I'm not on steroids. Unless you count testosterone as a steroid, which I guess maybe technically is. I am on testosterone.

It's technically. Yeah, yeah. But I'm not on the other great ones I'd love to be on. If I was going to die in a month, I would be on all of them. I didn't get it at the same way you did. And I think it's a little bit because I'm 6-2. And then maybe white. Like you guys were talking about that.

I do think that's part of it for me is obviously in Bollywood guys are super jack and it's fine. But here it's like you're a nerd or you're like a car. Yeah. Yeah. What was that fucking incredible movie that took over Netflix I loved? Triple R. Those guys are fucking beefcakes. When I went to my trainer, I was like, I want to look like this guy.

From Triple R? No. This was a guy who's a big star still. His name's Ritik Roshin. He's super jacked. He's a great actor. He's got an extra thumb. That's like a thing a lot of Indian people have.

No. Really? Yeah, I don't mean like 40%. Exceptodactilia? Is that what it's going? I think so. It's a little like extra useless thumb. Yeah.

Sixth digit. Three thumbs up. Yeah. When he likes the movie, he can really communicate it. Okay, so really quick. Now we must acknowledge that we're guilty of the thing that hurts us, which is you and I know, this guy's a huge star. He's jacked.

Yeah, he's got an extra thumb. I don't mind saying that. This guy's an idol. He's gorgeous too, yeah. But that guy, should he ever come across this podcast, which he won't, he'll be hurt that we're talking on his third thumb. Or is it something he's super proud of? I don't know.

Because he could give a shocker. He could go, whatever a new shocker is. Oh, my God. Two and the big. It's four in this thing. No, he meant, no, I knew this was. He didn't mean the shocker. Oh, you did?

I just mispronounce it. Yeah. Yeah, the shocker. What's the other? The shock? Yeah, that's what I thought you were also. No, I mean, yeah, two in the pink, one in the stink, and then four thumbs on the quitoris.

Yeah, he probably wouldn't like this. Yeah, my guess is he wouldn't like this. Or maybe it would. So anyways, often when I'm feeling really sad and self-pitying and hurt, I have to recognize I too do it. Do what? I talk about people in a way that I don't think would hurt their feelings because they're so high status, I don't think they would care.

I know. We're wrong. I genuinely have been trying. to be better about it. Like if someone makes fun of, you know, oh, look at how much work this person got. I'm like, first of all, it's their fucking decision. And what upsets me about what you said about you and Kristen together is,

these parisocial things where people think they know someone's relationship or how someone actually feels about someone, I think it's so unhealthy. You don't know me. You don't know my life. People will be like, couple goals or whatever. I'm like, you don't know what our life is. You don't know what my relationship with my wife is. You have no fucking idea.

So people sort of build us up sometimes to be like, Oh, this is, you know. You're a dreamy couple. I totally get couples goals. People will say, like, if they have a breakup, I'll stop believing in love. I'm like, don't fucking do that. That's too much pressure for one. I am not anything.

We are truly nothing to you. This should not be any kind of standard or anything. I mean, what they don't see is how much work we're doing behind the scene. You know, I'm absolutely in love with enemy. With Emily, my favorite. You don't even know her name. I said enemy. My friend of me.

What they don't know is. is it's not always easy. It's very fulfilling and satisfying, but we've got to keep working on it. Two people coming together in any capacity. How is it happening? I got friends who are in throuples now. I'm like, what are you doing?

Do you guys know people? We watch couples therapy. And every time I watch it and there's a thruple or something, I'm like, guys, it's just too hard for two people. Three, you're making it exponentially more complicated. It is exponential. Yeah, it's like going from one kid to two. Because it's each pairing and then all three of you together. We only got one way.

this is like one way, two way, three ways, four ways. Well, add also, Kristen and I share an identity if we are out at a dinner party. We're literally this one identity that plays off each other and has stories. It's like, what is this shared identity of this trouble when they come to your dinner party? How could you not know, like if you're in a thruple, be like, you know what? I think this person loves that person a bit more than they love me. And that's got to be true, right? I mean, how is it possible that everyone loves everyone equally?

Well, I believe that's possible because I have two kids. That's different. It is different. I don't know. You made them. Yeah, you made them. Now, if you're in a trouble with your kid,

I'm going to move on. No, let's talk about trouble with my children. I didn't mean you. I meant like, when my children are enough in a trouble. One of them is going to feel very left out. Even that you said the other day, something like I took my best girl

to a concert, one of the kids. And I said, you can't say that. And he said, I have two best girls. And I said, nope, no one wants to hear that. So yes, I do think in the Rupples, the love changes. It's like we're close right now.

Now, we're close right now. But then the pain on the other person who's on the outside in that moment and trying to fight their way. That's too much. I can speak to a three way. I've been in some three ways in my youth. That feels easier to navigate in a relationship. And how were those?

Well, what I can own up to. I can't wait to bring it up. I know what I can own up to. And that is inevitably, I felt like, no, I wish it was just me and this person. Oh, really? Even in that, you got a best girl. Oh, they're best girls everywhere. It's like, it's great.

It's fun. It's exciting initially. And then just like, oh, I like how that person kisses more. Could you take a break? I have two options in front of me. I enjoy kissing this one more. Yeah. Also, they all have their own feelings about that as well.

Yeah, sure. So they're like, I like this person. Both the girls are probably like, I hope this dude leaves. Yeah. Right, there's so much going on. It just seems very complex. It's all complex. Being a person is so complicated.

Yeah, being a person is hard. You know when in True Detective in first season when Matthew McCona, he says consciousness was a mistake? I genuinely truly believe that. I think it was a big fucking mistake. A bug? It is a bug. I really think you think anybody intended all of this?

This was not the end game. This is a big mistake. The similarities is they just want to end in this thing. because also Monica's heard me say it. I fucking hate an encore. It drives me. Camela drives me insane. Oh my God.

I love that. Who did you go see with your best girl? Sabrina Carpenter. Yeah. Did you go? Yeah, I went. What day? I went on the, think, the first day on a Sunday.

We went Monday. You went Monday. Did you get arrested for being too hot? I don't know. Me neither. What an incredible show. She's so cool. She's so great because she's really funny and she like understands all that.

Like so many. take themselves too seriously and she doesn't. Well, we saw, this is kind of a sad story, I guess, but we saw Prince at the forum. He did like a whole month and tickets for 20 bucks no matter what. Parking was 40 bucks. He did eight fucking encore. Wow.

Eight? And we were like, I gotta get home. You left. And then he died. Ah, yeah. Good. Good for you. That's abusive.

Do you think maybe like you killed him? By leaving early? Cosmically, kind of. Yeah, he was like, I got to try more. or whatever it was purple fall Let's not say that He did this fucking thing Speaking of confidence in performing

He did not sing for the first 45 minutes He strutted around on stage as the band played He'd go up to the mic Start to sing and then walk away I am not exaggerating 45 minutes and he started singing And then in like an hour and he started playing Purple Rain

And he was like, no, you're not ready And he stopped playing Purple Rain Oh my God He sang a bunch of other songs It's like you going to set next week with no preparation. Yeah. He was trying something. You know, with the cameras on me, I'm like, you're not ready.

No. Well, Camel. I really loved it. I hope everyone checks it out. The material's great. You perform it well. But what is so satisfying for me is a hard compliment to take. You're such a genuinely beautiful person.

It's like very on display. No, Camel. Oh, you're so sweet. The whole time I'm watching, I just have the warmest, just loving feelings towards you. You're such a sweet. I know, that's why I'm like, who could be mean to you? Oh, yeah, that was the last thing I wanted to say on that. Some of these people aren't even real.

You have to remember that. Yeah, I know. It's troll farms in Russia who decided, let's pick up this guy. No one who knows you or has been around you could ever be mean. But you know what's funny is we both have this thing. We want muscles. We want this and that. And I'm blown away with it and I'm horny for the muscles as I'm watching it.

But it is the essence that's just Kamau that I'm so attracted to. It is so beautiful and thought. full and smart and conscious. With or without muscles. Yeah. The quintessential ingredient is still you. Oh, thank you. That's very sweet.

That's like the nicest. Sincerely, though. Yeah, I'm very proud of it because I didn't do stand up for so long. And when I started up again, I was like, all right, I'm going to give myself a year and a half to write an hour, perform it, record it. And then I'm going to take a break and see when I come back to it. So I really feel like at this point in my life at this age, this is the thing I want to say that's completely my own. And I feel like I did it to the best of my ability in this moment.

Who knows what happens next? But I'm proud of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, Camel, I love you. It's been too long since you were here. I hope you'll come back. Night Thoughts, December 19th on Hulu. It's fantastic. Thanks for coming. Thanks, buddy. Love you guys. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that up. so, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. Kumail. Kumail Nanjiani.

We just like him so much. We do. He's a sweet boy. He's so, he's a good boy. He is. Who was reminding me of him recently? Me? Oh, this is interesting.

I guess it borders on racist, but he has a similar sweet core that I think, Karin Sony has. And I don't know if somehow it's related, but it's a very specific sweetness. Yeah. Karin is very sweet. Yes. Yeah, I don't think it's racist because you don't think I have it. No.

Yeah. No, you have other great qualities. No, I don't even, I mean, I think it's a great quality. I love seeing it, but I don't like wish I had it. Yeah. I mean, there's so much. There's a lot of overlap between Karin, obviously, and Kamel, in that. They're both growing up one in Pakistan, one in India,

but both little guys that are really quite afraid of their environment. Yes. Karin hiding, you know, his sexuality and being terrified. And then Kamal seeing a guy get shot, you know. Yeah. And then leaving there. I don't know. I know.

There's some connective tissue. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of that, speaking of... Connective tissue? Trauma. Oh, Tuama. Tuama. I don't mean to correct to you, but Cuomo.

I can't believe I said that. It's so wrong. I know. When I was home in Georgia, I had a great time. And it was very, it was, but it was funny. Because I, sometimes I wonder, because I've been here a while, been here in L.A. Yes. That, like, I've made some stuff up in my head.

Oh, sure. Yes. You know? I relate. Yeah. And I'm like, am I being, like, hyperbolic about. some of this stuff or the way I remember it or was there racism or like maybe not actually I don't know you know I start like questioning it questioning it and I think it's good to question it like we have these ideas that are built and like maybe that's wrong and of course it's always going to be a little wrong because your memories shift and stuff and morph over time there's revisionist history great podcast yeah incredible but I was kind of so bad to say I was kind of relieved.

There was a couple moments where I was sort of affirmed that those things weren't imagined. Were not imagined. Yes. And I was talking to someone specifically who I'm very close to who was talking about, I have to be careful here, who was talking about their father-in-law. And I grew up with this person. This person knows me very well. Yeah, yeah.

And she, my friend, was taking. telling me just like how bad, how racist it's gotten in that house with this person, father-in-law. And I was like, and I said, I said, that's so weird because like, he knows me. Right. And she's like, yeah, well, you're an exception because you're rich and famous. And I was like, oh my God. And then there's another person in that person's life who's also Indian. And I said, what about this person?

And she was like, he's kind of an exception to just because he's been around. But there's still some weirdness. And I was like, wow. And when she said it, it was a light bulb for me. Because I was like, yes, that, me being an exception is like what's, like what's driven my entire life. Sure, sure, sure. I think it's part of what has driven me to be, to work so hard.

It's like across the board. It's just like, I have to be an exception. Yes, yes. Across the board. And I think that's then just bled into all areas of my life. Work and anything, relationships. I think that's an incredibly sound theory. But I would also suggest it's like it's some percentage of,

the pie because your parents are gangsters. Your genetics are awesome. You were going to be a go-getter wherever you grew up as well. And then, you know, I think if I were you, I would certainly feel this way because you can't afford to make room for the nuance. But I'd imagine you think like racist is one thing, right? It's just like this hatred of all people or whatever. But when we're watching that wonderful documentary, those bozo white nationalists, were sitting with this Indian woman and they're like, well, not you. And I think there's mass confusion within their own mind. I think they have like, they have a cartoonish archetype in their mind that they hate.

Yeah. Right. Whatever the characteristics they've assigned to this group that they hate. And then yet weirdly, I think they're open to when they meet someone of that group that's not displaying these archetypical archetype things they think they hate, then they go like, oh, well, I don't hate this one. Mm-hmm. So I think, like, it is, even racism is as complicated and nuanced and probably individual as every other opinion, like, full of contradictions.

Yeah. I think that's right. I just think that's the problem. Like, if they, the hope would be that if they met or knew someone of that race, that that would then shatter the racism. The whole, right. The paradigm. But I think they go, oh, this is an exception. This is an exception.

And then, but they're open to meeting three more exceptions that day. I know, but who cares if the overall, you know, I know what you mean. I mean, like, it's a spectrum probably. And Hitler's on one side, which is like Jews are genetically inferior. Right. They all suck no matter what I'm witnessing them do spectacular. Right. Like, you can't, they can't, you can't penetrate his level on that.

And then I'm just, I just think it's a crazy spectrum. And of course, how is anyone the other. group to know where this person's at? Like, how irrational are they in this opinion? Yeah. Well, it is definitely a huge spectrum and people make exceptions all the time. But I guess what has happened to me over my life is I used to be very, you know, I needed to be that exception for survival. But I was like really, I didn't care.

I didn't care about the other Indian people. As long as I got through, I was fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now I don't feel that. I'm like, fuck that. Like, you take all of us or you can't just, I'm not an exception. Right, right, right. I'm like everybody else.

You can't all a cart. Yeah, yeah. So, so it's, it's changed, I think, for me over as I have grown. It's interesting. There's so many, like, little minute, layers to all of it, you know? It's like I may learn that Israelis on the personality tests are the highest disagreeability of all the ethnicities, right? Like, this is a confirmed thing we've had experts on talking about. And then I might meet in Israeli that doesn't seem that disagreeable.

Yeah. And I, and then I have to make room for like, oh, right, sure. In general, they over-indexing this, but again, there's so much variety within this thing. I also have to go like, oh, yeah, I can't just assume they're all disagreeable. Right. Because there's, yeah, because. It's like I'm doing, I'm sure in ways that aren't like overtly racist or hostile or or with any sense of superiority, just like what I think I know about different groups. Yeah.

And then you have to constantly be making room for the individual. Well, racism is not about making, I mean, I guess making generalizations as a part of it. But it's the making generalizations that lead to a feeling of superiority or a feeling of hatred. So if you don't have those other pieces, it's, you know, less of, it's not as much of an issue, unless you're making all these assumptions about people that aren't true. But for the most part, that's the, that's the issue, right? It's like, oh, they're all like this. And so that's gross or bad or, you know. Yeah, I can give a personal example on my own. There are, I grew up around a couple different cultures. Some of these cultures definitely, there was an

increased machismo and what I thought was total disrespect for females. And I went, that's wrong. Not I'm better. So even within like superiority, it's such a broad word. Totally. It's like I definitely felt like what I was doing was right and what they were doing was wrong. Yep. Per my morals and ethics.

Yeah. But I at no point was like, I'm better than or I'm superior or if this person hadn't grown up in my household, they wouldn't be the same. It's just like, oh, I know this group of people. they're pretty fucking hyper masculine and aggressive and I'm not for that. Yeah. And yeah, it's really complicated. But I love what you were exploring at the beginning because my brother and I had like a really, really profound.

Well, first of all, we had this beautiful trip together right before Christmas. We went to New York together. And I have had the great luxury of going to New York a ton of times and getting to live in different areas of the city when I'm working. And there's a whole part of New York I love that. I don't think the tourists really knows. And I very much wanted my brother to see that side of it. Yeah.

Because he even said, like, why do you love New York so much? For him, it's Times Square in Central Park. And I'm like, well, yeah, that's a great. Like, those are great. But probably not worth going to multiple times. Yes. So we went and we were on this long. We walked everywhere.

We walked like 17 miles a day. And I think we were walking across the Brooklyn Bridge. And we were chatting. And I said, my brother's a great, great believer. As am I in that. Like, he's a vision board person. Uh-huh. And he imagines what he wants and he puts out into the world, these positive outcomes he wants.

And it's very effective for him. Manifesting. I love it. And he manifests it, right? Yeah. And he thinks positive thoughts. And he knows positivity begets positivity. And we're talking about confirmation bias.

Like, yeah, if you think everything's upward trending, you see the proof of the upward trending. And you ignore the downward trend. And then you don't get bogged down in that. Yeah. And I said to him, I said, you know what feels really unfair for me as I write this memoir. is any one of us have had every experience in childhood. I can really, I have the data or the plot points to create any story I wanted. Sure, sure, sure.

Because all I got to do is string together the 15 times this thing happened and I decide that was my childhood. And I said, Dave, I said, you know, I really been, I want to get this out of my system, the memoir. And the goal is when the memoir is done, I'm going to start looking back on my history a lot differently than I have. have been, which is I have to acknowledge, yeah, these things happen to you and I, but if we really added it up, that's probably was 0.03% of our experience on life. They're so hyper memorable because they were so dramatic and stuff. But in reality, we're looking at 99% of the time we had a damn good sitch. And I said, and I want to start constructing a different story about my back. I said, I think the same thing is true about looking forward. I think I need to apply it.

looking backwards. Now that I said it out loud, I like feel a commitment to like. That's good. I mean, really, you could. You could, you know, you could look at the 12 situations where someone discarded you and you could look at the 12 that they showed compassion to you because you were other. I bet you also received a lot of, I would hope, some teachers that recognize this girl's other and I want to make her feel inclusive. You know, like, I bet there was acts of generosity that, you know, those don't hurt in, and sticking your memory. but I bet they were there. For whatever reason, I am very aware of the cheerleaders and angels in my story.

Those are the main characters for sure. I have no questions about that. It's startling. I feel like so lucky in that. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. It's, I mean, no one gets to have a life like this without it.

You just don't. You have to have a lot of people who believe in you. You have to have a lot of support and luck. And not just from your family, from just like random people. Yeah. So yeah, it's, yeah,

when I was home, I saw my old cheerleading coach, which was so fun. And she, she, we were talking and I was like, God, how did,

how did you do that? Like, how did you make all of us 15-year-olds care so much about this thing? It became, it was life or death. It was like, if we didn't win, we were going to die. Yeah. You were at the Olympics in your life. Yes, we were all working together so hard.

A huge team of people. Yeah. And everyone was on the same page. And like she said, she said, I don't know. She was like, I don't. I think about that all the time too. you guys were so, like the dedicated, she too was sort of blown away by that. And she's been still, she's still, she runs a gym.

She's so successful in what she does. But she looks back on that too. And so there is just some like kind of some weird luck you get. Like I landed in that environment where you had to show up. There was no other option, but to be your best. Yeah, there's just so many lucky hearts. You're going to love Angela Duckworth's new book. I'm reading like a pre-copy of it.

Oh, fine. It's all about the power of situation. She hinted at it the last time she was here. She was like grit was all about individual willpower, determination, dedication, blah, blah, blah. And I think you might have remember she had a graduate student of hers that was kind of like, this is a little bit of bullshit. Right. Remember he kind of like call her out? And God bless her, she was like open enough to hear him out and start exploring.

And so yeah, like the last decade of her life post-Grit has been really opening itself up to the, the enormous impact of environment. Everything around you, and she points out, like, everything around you is objective, and then everything inside you is completely subjective, right? Totally, yeah. And, yeah, that thing you experienced on the team, you were a product of an environment. Yeah. Where each of you challenged each other and rose, and she said, you know,

yes, you can get born into terrible situations. Yes, you can have terrible parents. but you always have some situational agency. And I think if you recognize the power of the situation, you can put yourself in different situations. You'll respond accordingly. Yeah. I love it.

I'm loving it. I'm so, we should have her on to talk about it. Oh, we must. We must. Yeah. Okay, exciting. Okay, I'm pivoting because I have a really important question.

I can't wait to answer it. So what would you do if your bar of soap that you wash your hands with. Okay, it's hand soap, but it's a bar. Yeah. It flies out. Okay, yeah. Yeah.

And you like it. You like that soap a lot. Volcanic ash? No, that's from my body. Oh, okay. You're washing your hands and it flies out slippery. Yeah. Slibering one wet.

And lands directly into the toilet? No problem. Really? Not a problem. Wait, is there feces in the toilet? No, but. Yon? A little bit of yawn?

No. But it was. just flushed. Yeah. Like seconds before. Yeah, no one is going to like this, but this is a fact. Okay. Your kitchen sink is a thousand times more dangerous than your toilet bowl.

There is way more harmful, potential harmful bacteria in your sink. So if you dropped your hand soap in the sink, you wouldn't think anything of it. You'd rinse it off and wash it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting. I wash my soap sometimes, which feels insane. I guess that's like, to what extent is it self-cleaning and to what extent is it not? Where does the self-cleaning line get drawn?

Yeah, it's the demarcation. Yeah. But that wouldn't, that would be fine for me. You'd be fine. Absolutely. Wow. It's just water in there. And there's a little bit of your yon.

Residue, which is mostly antiseptic. Pooh-poo residue. Uh, duty. No, um, stool balls. Stool balls. Sweetheart, this is Easter egg for Armchair Anonymous coming up. So this happened to me, obviously. Yeah.

What did you do? I already know what you did. What do you think I did? You used it. I didn't. I don't even know you. I know. Like, I was staring at this.

So, you know, I have round. I have this soap. It's round. It's very cool. It looks like a stool ball, but it's white. It's begging to be slipped out of your hand for crying. I know. But I've used it enough that it's like, now it's just like a dome.

Like the bottom is full. And it's like it's half, cut in half. And, um, semi-hemisphere. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like slow motion. I saw it twirling in the air and then plop right in the middle of the toilet. And I, I looked at it for a while because I was like for a second. And, you know, this is kind of like when I thought the rat got in the kettle.

Like sometimes my brain goes a little haywire. Yeah, yeah. I was like, should I just flush it? Fuck up your hole. And then, yeah, I was like, no, I'm not. I can't. I can't flush it. that's bad for the toilet.

It'll clog. But I was like, but I don't want to put my hand in there. For some, I like really did not want to put my hand in. She was off brand for you. You'll get down. I know. Remember that one time? You know, what did you do?

Have I even, have I talked about it on here? I'm sure I did. When I first started my seizure medication. Yeah. And I. I had my morning BM. Yeah, yeah. It was like the first day

and I looked and it was in there. The medicine was. The capsule. The whole thing. The entire thing. Yeah, I do remember that. Well, that's what I needed to see. I had to see.

That's right. That's right. I do remember. Yeah. So you had to for your help. I had to. That's right. But this, for some of me,

and it was, it was flushed, but it was recently flushed. Uh-huh. I was like, I don't want to put my hand in there. And then I did. I feel like I'd just be able to get rid of the top layer of the soap and be done to fresh. I mean, that's, I, that's what my thought was.

It's like, should I just rinse it off? It's soap. It's self-cleaning. I just get this top layer off. But I was like, I don't believe in self-cleaning anymore all of a sudden. And I threw it in the garbage. I was going to say, my curiosity's killing me. How did you retrieve it?

Tongs from you? No, I put my hand in. But you did. Yeah, I didn't. I hated it. I didn't. I didn't want to, but I was like, I guess I have to. And I put my hand in and I grabbed it and I just threw it straight in the garbage.

And then I had to get another soap to clean my arm and my hand. There's a whole thing. It's kind of a Jonathan Haidt like moral. Moral dilemma. Moral dumbfounding dilemma because like, yeah, it's like technically and morally fine. Yeah. But it felt really wrong. Yeah, yeah.

So I had to throw it away. That makes me think of, I took Delta to breakfast on Sunday. I'm trying to think what topic brought up morals and ethics. Ooh. It was really fun to start exploring that with her. What is she? I mean, she's so ethical, I think. I do too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of innately, quite ethical. She is. Yeah. I don't know where she got it. Oh my God. I'm trying to think what topic came up and I was just like, yeah, you know, you get to pick what you think is moral or immoral. And I think she was asking like a right or wrong question, you know, and we got to explore it. Anyways, I just, it's so fun to be having deeper and deeper conversations with the kids as they get older.

I love that. Yeah. She was reading. She has a graphic. novel she got for Christmas. Uh-huh. You might have seen this. This was at my birthday dinner.

Wait, that's the, oh, I thought that was Kristen's. No. I don't even know who got it for. Carly. Oh, my sister. Yes. That makes so much more sense. Tell me, you were flummoxed?

Yes, because Kristen pulls out this book. And maybe I jumped in the conversation late because she said, Carly got this. It's about this. Carl and I thought it was for Kristen. And I was like, she got you a graphic novel. Like I did think that was weird. Off ran for sure.

Kind of like me putting my hand in the toilet. Yes. But now that I know it's how that makes so much more sense. Yeah, so we just had the sweetest conversation because there's some adult themes, I guess, in it. And she wanted to know if it was okay that she was reading these adult themes. Uh-huh. And she felt like maybe conflicted. And I said, your gut will tell you.

Yeah. Your gut will tell you when you're ready for things and when you're not ready for things. You just listen to your gut. There's no right or wrong or it's too early or too late. Your gut will tell you. So don't worry. You don't have to worry about what's right or wrong. Yeah.

You just have to feel what's right or wrong for you or when you're uncomfortable. And maybe even sometimes you're uncomfortable, but it's tolerable on comfort. Yeah. Yeah. She's so cute. We had a horrible situation where I, you know, she loves these maylegs, which I think

is also taking the world by storm. They're so cute. These little mice great characters. They're like little 3D printed No, they're cloth. Oh, they're cloth. Yeah, they're really cute. Okay. And you collect them and then you collect their little, you know, house, you know, little like appliances and

yeah, those. Oh, yeah, they're all over the house. They're so cute. I kind of feel like I wish I could have some. Yeah. But it feels like maybe. Well, you could definitely have some. You think a guy might be weirded out? This is kind of like the dipe conversation from 2020.

Oh, if you were wearing your diaper. If you were when you were 20, if you like met a girl at a bar and you hooked up. And then she said, I got to throw my diaper on before I go to bed. Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I think if you're cute, you pull it off. So I think you can pull that off for sure.

I just don't think there's an amount of. cuteness that gets to the dipe? Yeah, the dipe. Well, you know, we asked all the men in the in the pod and all the women were like, absolutely not. Yeah. And the men were like, yeah, how cute is she?

Yeah. I don't remember. You could kind of go like, oh, this is adorable. This girl. I mean, she can't be a child. You don't want to be, that's, that's, you got to be really clear about what's happening. You're with an adult.

Yeah. Then you find out this adult, where's night dives? Is it is efficient because it's not, okay, this was also part of it. It's not that she can't control her pee. No. Because all day long, she doesn't wear a diaper. It's just that she doesn't want to wake up in the night to go to the back.

To remind people, this stems from my game plan of starting to wear nighttime dipes. Exactly. So I didn't have to wake up and pee anymore. Yes. Yeah. And then people are like, what about when you're traveling? I'll get a fucking type when I go to that city. Like, that's the question.

Anyway, Maylegs. So they're really, really cute. And she wanted, one of the things on her list for her. her birthday, and Christmas was a doll house for her Maylex. And Kristen told me about this. And Kristen was like, she doesn't need, like, an official one. You can just get her some random one. And I was like, no.

A lot of a box. Yeah, yeah. Like, get her a shoe box. And I was like, absolutely not. If she wants the official one, she's getting it. Yeah. And so I go on the website, the USA website, Melek. and it's, I order what's there.

Uh-huh. Okay? And I'm excited and I tell her, it's coming. And then we go to Nashville and someone had got her one for Nashville, too. That's going to stay in Nashville. Okay, great. The one for her that I ordered arrived while I was gone. So I saw that it arrived, but I didn't see it, right?

So then we're in Nashville and she's like, oh, you know, look at this. And she was showing me the box. I was like, oh my God, it's so cute, exciting. Well, you'll have one for both houses. Yeah. And then I get home and I was like, this box looks tiny. Oh, okay, now I'm up to speak. Because I saw you guys unwrapping this yesterday or the day before.

A couple days ago, yeah. I was like, oh, no. But then I came, I was like, well, maybe you have to set it up. Maybe it expands. Yeah. The box looked too small, right? That was the is. Way too small.

And I got nervous because I just, she deserves the best. Well. Yes, she does. And I was like, oh, my God. And then I get, so I come into the house and you, I don't see her, but she's there, but I don't see her. And you're standing there. And you're like, what is that? And I was like, it's Delta's dollhouse, but I think there's something wrong.

I don't understand. It's so small. And I don't know. This is bad. And then she like pops her little head out. And it's like, it's going to be perfect. It's perfect. And I was like, I don't know, Delta.

It looks really small. And she was like, it doesn't matter if it's small. It's exactly right. And then of course, then I'm like, it better be a mansion dollhouse like for her. It has to be so perfect. And then we opened it. And it is wrong. I mean, it's, it's right.

It's what is available on the site. I looked it up. But like, so I don't know how you guys got that other one for Nashville because it's not on that USA site. I don't know either. I'm really conflicted about all this. No, I love it. So then it's not what I got her is a suit casa. So it's just this like small suitcase.

And, you know, and I, you know, she took it out and I was like, oh, you know, I responded very negatively. I was like, oh. You really yucked the, the potential yump. Yeah. I was like, ah, suit casa. What is this? And she was like, it's great. And she was like, this is perfect.

I need different kinds. And everyone has different size houses. So it's good. And I was like, oh, my God. This person is so sweet. Like, it's unbelievable. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. You now just jogged my memory of how we got on ethics.

Okay. She randomly said to me, me at Cafe 101, because I do. And I'm on the fence about this, but I do it. I let her order whatever she wants. I can't even relate to it, right? Like just the way we grew up versus like, you know, if she wants pancakes and she wants eggs, I'm like, yeah, go for it. Yeah. And she just out of nowhere, she said, Dad, do you want to tell me I can't order as much? I go, you know, here's my thing about you ordering too much. I don't care if you order too much. I can afford to buy it. I said, and I recognize that.

you have a lot of decision anxiety. And for me, it's very easy to solve that problem with another $6 order of pancakes. Yeah. But I do worry a lot that I'm setting you up for failure because you're going to grow up. You can't afford to fucking order whatever you want. And I feel like I get scared. I'm not preparing you for the world. The world.

And she said, okay, but is it wrong? That's how we got on it. Is it wrong? And I said, well, you know, there's a lot of wrong. rungs to this ladder. There's like legally what's right and wrong. I said there's there are morals we would all agree on. Don't kill, don't rape, don't steal, don't hurt other people. I said, and then there's this whole area where you have to decide what your own ethical code is. And one of mine is I try not to waste. Yeah. And I try to leave the world as I found it. And on a great day, I leave it a little better.

I said, do you notice you've never seen me ever leave something in the sink? It's a stupid moral of mine. just won't leave it worse than I found it. And she said, okay. And I said, so you have to decide if you feel guilty about wasting. Right. And it's personal. And it's up to you. I'm not going to sign you your morals. But that's what's kind of on the table. And she said, okay, okay, I want you to tell me, I think you're ordering too much. You're going to waste some in the future. And I said, okay and then she got a um to go box for her french fries we're never gonna eat these french fries i was i want to be like well hon this isn't the time these fucking things are never getting they're gonna sit in the fridge for fucking eight days and then i'm gonna throw them out but i just

had to kind of honor them so then we walked out with a uh i have eaten order french fries but anyways this little girl this fucking little girl she's too much she really is too much it's like a lot it's a lot it's overwhelming it's overwhelming Um, but I have, I have zero. Come for me in the comments. I won't read them. I have zero guilt about wasting food. I don't.

It's, it is kind of weird. It's like, why don't die? Well, you can make a lot of compelling arguments in all directions. So one of the arguments I make for myself when we are wasteful is like, We're wasting our money, but I'm putting it into the world. I don't think I should be sitting here and squirreling everything I have. So I just always remind myself, when I have kind of wasted money, well, I wasted it by giving some small business that money or some manufacturer, whatever.

So in that way, I'm like, well, that's not bad at all. In fact, the more we get out of my pocket and everyone else is that's the best, probably. And then no one's going to like this. They'll come from me in the comments. It is not a finite resource. It is, so there's growers making money. There's the grocery store that sold it. There's all these people in this chain that were employed.

And yes, if you want to zoom out as an unethical because someone's starving over there, yes. But that's a totally false argument because I can't get that food with that person over there. And if I don't waste it, it's not going to them. So it's just like it's a hypothetical that's not reality. Yeah. So I don't get bogged down in that. But the thing that gets me more a sponge. out and I can't tell it's just my own child and what's going on.

I was like, so this thing you're talking about, these toys. Maylegs, yeah. May legs. And then there's fugglers. Yeah, we talked about fugglers. And in my opinion, there's too many fugglers. You shouldn't have this many fugglers. And then I walk outside and I'm like, and I have seven cars I've collected over the

years. So, like, I'm not in a position to be critical. But I bought those cars. Yeah, but she didn't. This is why the good place was made. Exactly. Being ethical at all times is nearly impossible in our modern world. There's not to one person it's this and to another person it's that.

Like it's also why we're so divided. We all have such different ethics. And what we think, I mean, to me, yes, there are some things that are they're objectively wrong. And sometimes when I hear other people's talk and I'm like, you don't think that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like so startling. Yeah, yeah. But then, but I agree with you.

There's this middle portion that it really is very, very, very individual. Yes. Because weirdly, weirdly, for me, wasting is almost like, it's like a personal respect. Like when I am at a restaurant and I order something, I eat what I want to eat of it. And if I was like, I have to over. consume. Exactly. Yes, agreed. That's another one of my arguments. It's like to make yourself take on excess calories your body told you you don't want. Yeah. It's insane to make who happy. And just like, I don't want anymore. I should be okay with not wanting anymore. I don't, I, there's a gluttonous

element on the other side of it. Yes. That's like, I don't like the way that is in people. Mm-hmm. So I don't, I don't know. It's weird. Chris and I talk about this a lot because we get in a little debates about what is wasting, what's not. In my opinion is you have to also be very pinpointed about when is it waste. Once you've ordered it, it's done. Yeah, exactly. It's completely done. If you bought something from the store and you brought it back to your house and now you're keeping it in your house because you don't want to waste, that's a fantasy.

Some people eat it. Well, I'm just saying people will us. Yeah. We have just shit piling up because we would feel terribly guilty to throw it away. Stuff you can't donate. We do a lot of donate. But my point is always like, it's too late. If you want to cut back on waste, it's the buying of it.

Totally. Once you bought it, forget it. You might as well do whatever you want, whether you eat it or you throw it in the trash or you stick it in your ass or you light it on fire. It's irrelevant. It's that you bought it and now it'll be replaced with more manufacturing. Right. So that's done.

It happened the second. There's no wasting or not wasting it. It's over. Yeah. I'm also reading the Ezra Klein book, Abundance. And yeah, he gets into climate and a, and a really comprehensive all facets way, which I love, which is like you have different movements

within the environmental movement. And one of them is really just a judgment on consumerism. A lot of the environmental movement, people in it, what they really want is they think we made this in this pact with the devil years ago when became a consumeristic capitalist society, right? So what they really want is for us and not be that way.

Now, what are the odds the world's going to do that. That's not going to happen. But people are not going to go back to a pre-materialistic world. Right. He said, now you have another bigger group, which is like, there's clearly a lot of waste in the system, and there's a lot of resources being spent on stuff that shouldn't be spent on. Yeah. The problem is people don't agree on what those things are. I know. And then I think you get down to what I hope should be everyone's core value is like, my ethics aren't above yours. Right. They're mine. Yes. You got yours. That's a superiority. in the in the all-knowiness of thinking yours are the ones everyone should agree on.

What about like the want? Like what about like if someone's like, well, I'm allowed to like hurt this person. It's like that there should be some, right? Well, again, that's why there's ones that we actually all agree on. Everyone agrees that you shouldn't be allowed to assault people, kill people, rape, people steal from people. I guess those are laws. I guess that's when they become laws.

They're the Ten Commandments. They're like, you know, they've been agreed upon for quite a long time. And then this other batch, like as much as you're convicted about it, it's the, It's the other batch. It is funny, though, because I was, I am very materialistic. It's no secret. I like buying stuff. Yeah.

I like looking nice. I like, whatever. But I was at a store at home, a store I like. But I was looking around and all of a sudden I was just like, there's so much stuff. Crap. There's just stuff. Yeah, yeah. All just like random stuff everywhere.

What are we doing? Like I did have this like, what are we doing as a people? Yeah. Well, he brings that one up. He's like, of all these buckets, you've got fast fashion. Cement. Cement is an enormous emitter of carbon when it's made and it's, we need it for construction. It's like you certainly have one person saying, we don't need a fucking another football arena.

Yeah. The other one works. Yeah. Legit. I'm going looking at fast fashion and going, that shit's. You don't need that. Yeah. But I want, you know, like.

Totally. Well, it's hard, though, because it's like, there are sizes so many parts of this because fast fashion, for me, I'm like, okay, I'm against fast fashion, right? Because I can afford. Yes, exactly. It's a total privilege to have that point. So to me, I'm like, yes. You're a young poor girl.

You want an outfit, man. Of course you want an outfit. And you should be able to have it. That is also what I feel. So I'm like, ah, I'm so. conflicted about this because I do think there should be that available for people who don't have the privilege I have. Yet, then what I do is like, I think there should be some of those options. But I should not participate in it. Yeah. Since I don't have to. Exactly.

Like you do the things that you can do or that you're willing to do. Yeah, but the judgment is the problem. The across the board judgment is like not looking at any. nuance. We must all get a little looser on our grip of all in all this all you know, our definitive. It's left. It's right. All these different binaries are like guys life in its best outcome is like we tried to serve as five or six principles and we did we optimized all of them as much as we could. But they all took a hit along the way. I also I just think maybe a good resolution is to be more focused on you, how you walk through life. Yeah.

And if this thing that you're doing, yeah, just try to be the version of you that you think is ethical, moral, whatever. And I'm going to have. And stop looking outward. Don't tell a fucking single person about it. Live your life and you'll be appealing to people who want to model what you do. Be an example. Don't be a fucking preacher.

Yeah. Anyway. Camel. Yeah, Kumal. Where's he land on fast fashion? Did we get that out of them? I forgot to ask. He does not wear fast fashion.

He's very well-dressed. Yeah, he doesn't. But he's privileged. He doesn't have to. Unstoppable is a movie with Denzel. Sure is. And Chris Pine. And Ethan Soply.

Exactly. That's probably how we got. on the subject. Okay, I looked up how much the Coon's vacuum cleaner in the box is worth. A Jeff Coon's vacuum cleaner artwork's worth very significantly, with some new Hoover convertibles selling for millions, example, over four million at Sotheby's, over five million at Christie's, while smaller inspired or vintage models might fetch a few hundred to a few thousand dollars at places like eBay, showing the vast difference between collectible, fine art and regular

items. Okay, so his are in the million. I want to say that the one, my friend found the piece of. I don't know if I told that whole story in this episode. The reason I even know about these vacuums is a friend of mine worked for the insurance company that had insured them. And I know that the collection, I want to say there were three in this collection. I think at that time were $8 million. And this was 15 years ago.

Yeah. And there was a piece missing. Yeah. At some point, the art piece had been serviced or cleaned and a piece got lost. and then there was a claim laid on it. And so if we don't find this piece, the insurance company has to pay out $8 million, and my boy found the piece.

Oh, wow. He's like a sleuth. Wow. He has to go to New York and befriend all these art critics and find, get himself into this warehouse. Interesting. Wow. That is a cool looking vacuum, I have to say.

It's very cool. Yeah. But what's hilarious is all it is is the vacuum from the store in a loose light box That's where I have problems. That's where my ethics are drawn. Like I would not feel ethical putting an existing thing in a Lusite box and calling it my art. I would not feel ethical doing that. But Jeff is his own guy.

And it's beautiful. Something about it. I think it's ridiculous. And I look at it. And I like looking at it. Sure. Yeah. Okay.

So he said he had just gotten some massage on his jaw and then he was crying about his dead grandma. Oh, yeah. And then I looked at it. that experience. Do you? Um, nah. So my emotions are already avail. That's true. But I looked up our jaw muscles attached to emotion because also Elizabeth, lame, Elizabeth and Andy, that's dead. Nobody's listening, right? Um, she talks about how she can't have sex unless her jaw is like relaxed. Oh. Like it's like connected to like her horniness. Oh my God. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah. So is his job to massage those and keep them pliable? Well, I'm sure he does if he wants it. Like my only route to sex was relax mastoids. I feel like I'd become an expert on loosening mastoids. On loosening mastoid. Excuse me. That was disrespectful.

What did you say? I said masseuse. Oh, yeah. I want a massage therapist to reclaim that title the way women have reclaimed bitch and Black people have reclaimed. Yeah. We know where I'm going with everything. So, so I looked it up.

Yes, jaw muscles are directly linked to emotions, stress, anxiety, anger, and even happiness. Because jaw tension or relaxation through the body's fight or flight response and nervous system leading to clenching or a slack jaw. And this physical tension can also worsen emotional states creating a feedback loop. So that's cool. Yeah. Okay. You said 67% of people have teeth nightmares. Looks like 39 to 40% of people have dreams about their teeth falling out or rotting at least once, making it a very common nightmare theme.

Though rates of recurring dreams are lower, around 8 to 16%. These dreams are often linked to stress, anxiety, or feelings of powerlessness. But sometimes physical dental irritation, like teeth grinding during sleep can trigger them. Yeah, nearly four and ten adults have experienced teeth dreams. I'm so rare. I mean, I guess technically I'm in the majority of these are right, but like still. You just don't have that nightmare. I don't.

You must not carry a lot of tension in your jaw. I had always thought it was my orthodoxy history. Right, but it's actually your powerlessness history. Certainly. I hate powerlessness. Yeah. I had a dream last night that I was late. I was like, I was in Boca Raton. Okay.

And I had to get, no, was I in Boca Raton? I think so. And I looked at the clock. Is it Boca Raton or Boca Raton? I don't know. I think it might be Roton, but I'm not to be trusted. Maybe it is. Maybe we were saying it wrong in Detroit.

We say most things wrong in Detroit. Well, and I was there and I looked at the clock and the fact check was starting in 11 minutes. Oh, wait. Oh, you were in Boca Raton or Tan. And I had to get here in 11 minutes. I had to get to the airport. You can't do it in 11 minutes. And I was trying.

I was like trying to get my bags and I couldn't get to the right bag claim. And it was a lot. More than my teeth now, what is taken over my teeth is my goddamn phone. I'm always, it's always a flight. I always need to check if I can delay, like find another flight later because I'm not going to make it to the airport. And I cannot get my phone. Like every time I open my phone, I'm on a weird screen and I have a bug. It's like the old days on your computer when it gets taken over on AOL.

Yeah. Then you just fucking pop-up screens, everyone you could not. Oh, weird. He was going to throw your computer in the trash. Remember how it would just take over? It would get a virus and it was just done. Fucking viruses. Yeah.

Yeah. So in my dream, my phone, it always has this virus and I can't get to the internet to change my flight. And that now is, I'm having that one at least three times a month. Weird. Yeah. Huh. I think that might just be like having a pretty busy schedule.

Sure. I think. Yeah. Like, feeling like, what do I have today? So many things in my calendar and. Yeah.

Yeah. I get that. Okay. Was it Evan Peters and mayor of Easttown? Yeah. This was so, remember when he told us a lot of Indians have an extra thumb? Yeah.

It's true. Preaxial polydactylia. Oh, so this is specifically just the thumb. Yeah. My trauma. When he said that, I was like,

oh my God. Like, I, like, really kind of hated that. The thought of an extra thumb. On Indians specifically. It was like, oh, even more other. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, why?

Oh, that's the guy he was talking about. He is very handsome. Oh, my God. So for the listener, it's not what you think. It's not two individual thumbs. It's one thick thumb that then branches into two. Right. Tips.

Tips. Whoa. Dude. Wow, I've never seen that. And that's common in India. And what I love is he doesn't, he's proud of that. Yeah, he's not hiding it at all. He's a big movie star.

I know a very big movie star. It's got a hand thing and he hides it really, really well. Yeah. No, he's owning it, which I love. But it does stress me out. It does. And the thumb itself from the angle where you're looking at the palm, it definitely looks like a cute, like, Not a frog head, not a turtle head.

It does look like, like, imagine the gap between the two thumbs is a mouth. And then I see an eyeball on the top. Yeah, it kind of looks like Marcel the shell with seashores. Yeah, it's a little character. Yeah. He must, does he, do you think he has dexterity in it and he can? I hope. Well, he would have to, right?

But I wonder if he can make that move like a Pac-Man mouth. I think he can. Oh, wow. Now, while exact numbers for India are scarce, polydactylily, lily is noted. Oh, is that way your middle name's Lily? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What if I had it and they got it removed?

Because hold, notably more common in Indian populations, especially pre-axial polydealalal. Extra thumb, toe side. With some studies suggesting rates as high as 1 in 3,000 births in India, much higher than general global rates. Okay. A strong genetic component, it says, obviously. Duh.

Yeah. It also says, though, that a lot of people get it removed. Studies, they get it removed at, like, birth. Sure. Okay, that means 400,000 people in India have it. If it's 1,000 and 3,000. If that's right. If it's 1 in 3,000, 400,000, you could make a damn good living as the doctor who does this.

It's the second most common congenital hand disorder. What? What if I had that and they got it removed? You didn't. How do you know? Because you'd have a massive scar on your thumb. And to mine, I haven't inspected your thumb in great detail, but I think you would see. What if I just?

He screamed out loud. Oh. Oh, I'm so. That's okay. We all have our things. Every group has a thing. Well, no, it's like, it's fine. Yeah.

It just, I just was imagining growing up here with that. Oh. It was hard enough. You'd have to wear gloves or something. Well, would you rather be known as the girl that wears the glove or the girl with three thumbs? I don't know. As a kid, I know I'd rather be the guy who wore gloves. And you could just go, oh, my hands are really dry.

And the doctor makes me wear these gloves. As you get older, you're going to have to, like, pull your gloves off at some point. When you find your true love. Oh, my God. This is why I would, I would really, I would not. You'd be shut down for a good. Because you're very attractive and you're a real. catch and you're already mildly shut down.

So if we would throw in a third thumb, I think. Well, you know me, like I have a weird, again, like a self-hatred, I guess, but of like, if a freckle or like a mole, mainly even a freckle, like, pops up on my body, I, I, like, really can't handle it. I, like, have to dig it out. And it's, again. Because probably causing cancer. It's also a contradiction.

which is you love Delta's mole on her face, right? The most. Yeah, and freckles on other people. You love it. I know. It has nothing to do with other people. Yeah, I know. Nothing.

No, I'm going further. You actually like it in other people. Yeah, I think it's so cute. You hate it on yourself. Yeah, and like I have this freckle on this finger right here. You're always working on that. Yeah. It, like, it appeared in the last few years and I hate it.

That is so. I mean, I don't want to quite crazy. No, it is crazy. But it's bonkers. It's crazy. I know it's crazy. I'm like, how could I be so fixated? I like it.

You can see it? You just held it up so I could see it, Monica. I thought maybe it was invisible to everyone except me. Now I hate it even more. No, I like it. And everyone likes it. And sometimes I'm typing and I'm just like, ew. You have to think of it as a part of your constellation.

I don't want that. Okay. So. Maybe he's not wearing gloves. And then you'll be like, what happened? You get a new thumb? When I have that thumb finally come in, the Indian thumb. Oh, my God.

All right, that's it for Kamal. Okay. I love you. And everyone likes your freckles. So. Don't look at them. Don't zoom in. Guys, do not zoom in.

I want you to revisit hypnotism. He passed away. I know. Really sad. He was such a sweet. He was a really nice man. That story he told about the woman that loved him and he thought he needed erectile dysfunction medicine.

And she said, you don't need that. Let me take care of you. Do you remember they told that story? Oh, my God. It was the sweetest story. He told it was such tenderness. I know. I really, really liked him.

Go back in the archives. I get hypnotized. Yeah. It's pretty. And it kind of worked. We'll say it worked because he's passed. I'm going to get you hypnotized and the only goal of the hypnotism is to convince you that it worked the first time.

When you wake up, you're going to think the first hypnosis work. Exactly. All right. I love you. Follow armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey.