Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Maisie Williams

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

Maisie Williams (Game of Thrones, The New Look, Pistol) is an actor. Maisie joins the Armchair Expert to discuss how she connects with other young actors who achieve success early, how her relationship with doing press has evolved, and how she originally wanted to be a dancer. Maisie and Dax talk about what it’s like to be on a massive television show, having to learn to use a sword with her opposite hand, and growing up on a tv set. Maisie explains how the golden era of fashion happened during World War II, how early fashion designers contributed to movements like feminism, and what actors above 50 she’d want to date.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dak Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Lilly Padman. Hi. Hello. Hello. Hello. We have a very fun and youthful guest on today.

Yes, we do. Maisie Williams. Oh my God, I fell in love with her. Is Arya Stark? Maybe, I don't know. Tied for me with the hound. Oh, Arya, no, she's the best. She's the best, okay.

I like them both so much. Sure, I mean, there's so many good characters. The hound's great because he's a bad guy and he's good at times. That's a very infectious archetype for me. Well, Ari is the opposite. She's a good girl. She's a good girl, but she can be bad.

She's a naughty girl too. Ha ha ha ha. Well, Maisie's been ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha which tells the story of Christian Dior, Coco Chanel and their contemporaries. This show was made for Monica. Let's just call it what it is. This is Monica's show. It should have been called Monica's show. And it's timely because it was just Paris Fashion Week. Oh, perfect.

And do you wanna hear something? How long are they time that? If they were smart, they did. Yeah, they're pretty smart at Apple. Well, listen, the row had a show. Okay. The row show? Uh-huh, but they sent an email or in the invite

or whatever, they told people no social media. Oh, so what does that mean? So no one took pictures and posted, which like most of these shows, it's people have video and pictures and it's a whole. Do you think they took people's phone when they came in? They must have, because how would you control that?

Well, I think they just, it was like. You're entering into agreement by coming? What's it called? Like faith's honor system. Honor system, faith's friendship. And they got, they provided everyone with a very fancy pencil. Okay. Black rain pencil. Okay.

Black wing pencil. I did end up buying some after I heard about this because I needed that. Did you write with pencils? I do now. Oh, okay. And like a cool notebook for people to write notes and draw pictures.

Oh, so they were free to draw sketches of what they saw. Exactly. Well, Maisie's a veritable historian on fashion as well. She was probably invited. She knows her shit. Yeah. Please enjoy Maisie's a veritable historian on fashion as well. She was probably invited. She knows her shit. Yeah. Please enjoy Maisie Williams. He's an old Shakespeare.

He's an old Shakespeare. He's an old Shakespeare. He's an old Shakespeare. He's an old Shakespeare. He's an old Shakespeare. Hi, welcome. Happy to meet you. You too.

Thank you. Were you offered all the beverages? Yeah, I just visited the bar. I was just going to go to the bar. I was just going to go to the bar. I was just going to go to the bar. I was just going to go to the bar. I was just going to go to the bar. I was just going to go to the bar. I was just going to go to the bar. I was just going to go to the bar. I was just going to go to the bar. He's a hot churros friend Hi, welcome

Happy to meet you You too Thank you Were you offered all the beverages? Yeah, I just was kind of freaking out over this that looks like a beer but it's water And there's any beer? There'll be more growth change for the big picture Oh

Oh, you have a t-shirt? Are you a fan? Oh, come on Enough of that Have you ever met anyone who wasn't a fan? Yeah. Really? No. They were a lot.

You wasn't a fan. No, not a fan, just not seen it. But that's like two people in the whole world. Well, I don't know. There are a couple. But also, what a good litmus test. If they go like, oh right, I never saw it. I would go, wonderful, have a good life.

And then I would just turn around and walk. And you'd never see me. Or maybe you might like it. Do you like it when people don't know you? It is sometimes quite not. I feel like a lot of my friends are people who have no idea. Yeah, and that's kind of nice, some non-fan friends.

Yep, Monica's making this weird decision to not watch a certain boys show because she might date them and I think that's crazy Do you get it? I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me how you get it Well, I don't know everyone I've ever dated don't have a clue. They don't care. I get to introduce myself Yes, you get to win them over organically and you get to earn it, but I'm talking about the reverse Would you protect yourself from seeing let's say I met met you, you're gonna have to play along, I'm 62 years older than you. But somehow I charmed you at a place.

And then we exchanged numbers, and then we're gonna hang out. Then one of your friends was like, I know that dude, he was on parenthood. Do you think you would not be able to watch that show without it somehow poisoning the well? Yeah, I feel like then I would be like a little star stuck around my neck.

Exactly, and that is not good for dating. No. You're wrong. I'm on a roll of being wrong yesterday. So do you think that like if you charmed someone. Can you imagine? And then would you like it if you were kind of charmed a girl, you know that they hadn't seen something.

Would you find it kind of flattering that they went away and watched the whole thing? Here's what I think. And a lot of people wrestle with this. This is a debate that comes up in here all the time. And I think I can sum it up, although you're gonna be an anomaly for this because you didn't have the whole thing. Here's what I think. And a lot of people wrestle with this. This is a debate that comes up in here all the time. And I think I can sum it up, although you're gonna be an anomaly for this, because you didn't have the full experience.

But I think if you're someone who did just fine in high school dating, that kind of thing's not an issue for you. If you didn't attract the attention of any boys or girls, then this thing becomes a lot more complicated. So I'm not gonna assume that some Gale watch parenthood and now is in love with Crosby the character I played. And from where I sit, if I've expressed interest in you,

then one of the first things I'd wanna do is my homework is like, oh, what's the thing that was really important to you? What was a big chunk of your life? I'd like to make sure I know about that. That's you. Once you're dating, you can- Post-coital?

Yeah, four or five dates in. You can start the show, but not at the beginning. You don't understand about playing it cool. I know, I know, but I also do because I did okay in high school. Whatever, that was a long ago. How about this though, you meet a boy, you like each other. If you're interested in boys.

Both, that's great. Right, you meet a boy or a gal, it doesn't matter. You meet a human being, and there's sparky sparks flying. In learning about one another at dinner, you go like, well yeah, for 12 years of my life, I was very busy doing this thing. That's why I didn't go to school or whatever you say. And then the boy or girl runs off

and then they go and watch it. And they're like, we can't hang out. I have a lot of seasons of the show to get through. Yeah, I'll see you in six months. But what do you think about that? Does that not feel flattering? I could imagine me being a little flattered, but only if they didn't then pedestal the whole thing.

You know what I mean? Yes, if there's a huge power imbalance in any relationship and one person's a fan and in all of you, well, that's a deal breaker. But I think that person would be that way with her without watching the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they're either prone to that or not.

I'll do interviews in the very well intention, good morning America or whatever. Like, don't you just worship your wife? And I'm like, puke, no, that would be fucking really gross relationship. That's like not a matter, yeah. I thought she was like otherworldly or something. But you weren't a fan of hers before.

You were exactly the opposite. You didn't know her. Well, I wasn't not a fan. I hadn't seen Veronica Mars. Maybe that's why it worked. Exactly, you didn't go in with any expectation. Once you were together, then you saw the opposite. You didn't know how to work. Well, I wasn't not a fan. I hadn't seen Veronica Mars. Maybe that's why it worked. Exactly, you didn't go in with any expectation. Once you were together, then you saw the show and then you're like, oh, this is a good show.

True, but I think it would have worked both ways. I wouldn't have been peeing my pants because she was Ron Mars. You sometimes pee your pants. The name of the time I peed my pants, it was like three. Yeah, there are people. I don't want to say because sometimes they've come in here. Like Lisa Bonet, do you know who,

oh, you must know Lisa Bonet. I'm gonna ask you some questions in a minute and thank you for your pages. No, that's great, I love this. I think I'm in the phase of trying to win you over because you're young and I'm old and I'm insecure. Don't be insecure. Have you ever tended to elevate someone up to a level

that wasn't tenable? I don't know, there's like Beyonce. Sure. God, she's, yeah. I don't know, there's like Beyonce. Sure. She's, yeah. I think that I definitely get starstruck more than most famous people do. Right. But I do understand that everyone is just a person,

but I think that I'm kind of just awkward like that sometimes. But don't you think after like two months of dating and they pooped with the door open and they brush their teeth, don't you think it would wear off? Definitely. Oh, it would wear off on anyone. Yeah.

But it's just that immediate thing. And maybe it's more that whole thing of how I should be acting or should be feeling. And you're not in your body actually really at that moment, which is why you're getting so like, I can't believe this person is in front of me. But actually I think if I were to just like zip it in. Yeah, obviously they're just normal person.

Now that's a great point. So if the person's celebrity or their talent has the outcome of you feeling self-conscious, then yeah, you shouldn't do it. Is that what you think might happen? Is like, if you love this show, then you might find yourself being self-conscious. Like, I hope this goes well.

That's so me. It makes me thrown a little bit in myself. And then I'm like, oh, I feel like I'm getting further away from my own destiny here. It shakes your confidence. Yeah. And then you can't really be you. Exactly, like I wouldn't want to watch things, I wouldn't want to do things because it would just put me

in a place that was not as authentic as it was before. It wouldn't even provide. Do you think that's what it is? Yeah, I think that plays a part. Eventually, it would be so funny. Exactly, but that's why you just have to get through that first hump. Oh, bigger than me, I'm literally.

I'm a cop. I have an armchair theory on why your star struck. Okay, go for it, please. There's the obvious thing that you were really young when you started going to these things. But I think beyond that, if ever there was a show that was so physically removed from Hollywood, did you shoot that 10 months a year

or something? Depended on the season, but yeah, a lot of the air. And you're out in the fucking forest, right? You don't even know if people watch the show. It is not glamorous at all. So then you take an airplane ride, I'm guessing. You're nailing it. From a forest in Ireland or wherever the fuck y'all are.

And then you land in Hollywood and then you go to the Emmys and it occurs to you everyone in this town is obsessed with this thing and wasn't sure it's on. That's exactly it. I was so far removed from the glamour of this industry and the celebrity. And then that part of my life was so tiny and compared to how long we would spend making the show

and doing school and everything else, it felt like that was the reality and not the excitement side of it. Did you feel like when you were at the Emmys that you were like, somehow I've teleported to this thing that cannot be real? Definitely. I feel like I would just float through and just not really have any idea what was going on. I actually think back to those nights and I'm like, I just don't know really where I was. Disassociated.

Really. And I remember even after we won Best Show on the final season, we were all backstage during all the interviews and I just literally remembered being the whole time just like like a doe-eye. Yeah, fully in. And then it's like, we're all going to go out. And I was like, I think I just need to go home. This is really overwhelming. Also here's another guess I have about how abstract the experience was is acting's acting, whatever lines you're given in, whatever lines you're given and whatever show you're giving,

you're trying your hardest to do the best and then you need to feel connected to your same partner or not. Now then the show can have this otherworldly magic and it can be so big and impressive that I might feel a little disjunction between what I do in the woods, which is pretty simple. I like talk to people, I cry sometimes.

And then, and I'm asking what famous persons coming up to you at the Emmy's just going like, oh my God, Arya, you're the recipient of this global phenomena that's so expansive. Yet the reaction is directed at you and the work itself is not terribly unlike any other work you would do. Yeah, the preparation of at you in the work itself is not terribly unlike any other work you would do Yeah, the preparation of the time and the dedication and when something's got the distribution went to the screen actors Guild Awards and

It was crazy because it was the year of Jennifer Lawrence and she like shot past all of us and was like I love your show so much She's like the biggest star in the world. I mean still is, but that was unbelievable. Myself and Sophie were just like, oh my God. It's like the one person that we're all dying to see. And then she's like, I love your show. Stands on the red carpet, does her pose, and runs into the award ceremony. We were like, it was actually quite funny

because I went on the red carpet right after her. And obviously all the cameras will just take a picture of the general. It was my first moment where I was like, you're not as cool as people are saying you are. Are those events insane? Just bizarre. Now I think that they're so fun.

I don't know, my brain is closed over. Well, you've practiced. Yes, exactly. And now I think that I can just laugh at the absurdity of everyone standing in these insane dresses with fans sweating. Like, behind the scenes of it, I'm just like, this is brilliant. This is a movie in itself. But before I think I used to just really be very earnest with it

and think this is the most prestigious thing and the best night of my life and I should be so lucky. And now I just think it's silly. Yeah. There is a version that's highly enjoyable, but it's actually not the one you go in with thinking. What you just said, which again is more disjunction, this is supposed to feel like the most incredible thing in the world.

And yet I kind of have to poop and I'm a little hungry. Why haven't I transcended the human plane? Until you get to what you're at, which is, oh my God, this is so comical. And then you have friends and you know people. And then it can be enjoyable again, but it's true. You're like, when am I gonna feel like this is the best night of my life?

Yes. We interviewed Jenna Ortega last year. Do you know her? I mean, you know of her. Yeah, exactly. I heard that episode. Oh, you did? Oh, you've heard the show? Yes, yes, yes. Oh, wonderful. So the thing I really, really sympathized with her, because I had it on a much, much smaller level, but I had it,

which is everyone around you has this expectation that you should be feeling. Because we've all succumbed to the fantasy. So you're having it and you almost feel like you're letting everyone down around you that you're not elated. Do you have any of that? It's funny, I was speaking to my mom about coming on this press tour. She used to come on my press tours with me all the time. And I always used to talk about how they were the worst part of it for me. And I really didn't like it because exactly that I just feel like this is supposed to be a lot of fun And anyone would kill to do this and I can't help but just feel like really really tired

Really overwhelmed. I don't have any more answers to these questions like I'm not being funny I feel so false and then I'm like but in a week You're gonna be back in your life and you're gonna miss this, so you should really be lucky. You're mad at yourself. Yeah, I'm like fully. And then I was saying to her, I'm so excited for this presser,

I can't wait to see everyone. She's like, that's really funny to me because you used to hate that part. I was also a kid, but now I just feel like you can just ease into that a lot more. And it was really interesting listening to Gemma talking about it because I really could connect with those things, but I do feel like it's getting way easier now.

Yeah, once you accept it all, everything gets way more fun and manageable. The quicker you can get to that. Or I used to be so obsessed with my privacy. When paparazzi got Chris and I out, I was furious. I'm like, what is this? And drove me nuts. And now I just don't give a fuck.

Now you call them. I call them every time we leave the house. I just pray they'll put us in something. I have the nicest outfit on today. Come on. Yes, I just worked out. Please, photograph me. But you're in such a weird position

because you're so young, and yet you are more experienced than most of the older actors working. Kind of like the May Whitman thing. Where people think of you as a kid, but you're like, I've been working for longer than you. It's such a strange part of it. I still feel like there's so much that I don't know

and I still feel very green. And especially because of COVID and strike, I feel like starting all over again in a sense. You're very grounded. I'm impressed. Vertex not on. Oh, we don't know yet. We don't know yet. You definitely need 12 impressive minutes. You're very grounded. I'm impressed. Oh, verdicts not on an animal. We don't know yet. We could definitely do 12 impressive minutes.

She could start asking Rob for weird things. Once we get into an hour, we'll know. I had asked for a six bean salad. Is that around somewhere? But just in the sense that being on set, hitting your mark and all of those little technical things, I feel like a pro. This feels kind of good knowing what I'm doing. Good job, you're good at your job. Totally, and like being in my life. Yeah, Justine, if you notice the camera, you're blocked a little bit, and the camera guy's so happy and grateful for you.

Yeah, he like wipes the bead of sweat, and I'm like, you know, I've got you, don't worry about it. So that sort of thing is great. Otherwise, I just feel like I'm always learning from other actors, and I feel like I've done so much. But then I've been working with Ben Mendelsohn on this show, and he has been acting since he was like eight years old. So I'm like, OK, I know nothing, actually.

Well, how old is he? He's only got you by four years on the start. Yeah, true. You started at 12. He started at like 79 or something. Is everyone your 27? About to turn. So you're 26? Yeah. I have to imagine.

There's number of things. So let me get this straight. You're gonna turn 27, you must be. Yeah, you're still at an age where I have to believe everyone over 38 is just vaguely 50. Right? Yeah. Isn't that gotta be the case?

No. Like, you remember your teachers when we were kids? Yes. And how old are they in your mind? I know. 35, 40. Yeah, but they weren't. They were 24.

Oh, I know. So sad. They were? Yeah, kind of crazy. I feel like I'm getting way better at that actually. I have a brother who is in his mid 40s and then my mom is in her 60s. So I feel like I have a good barometer now

where I'm like, where do they fit? Are they older or younger than my brother? You can speak my language. You have some of my references, hopefully. It's quite crazy that you said at the beginning of this interview, like, I'm old. You are not old, I wanna go back. Okay, let's go back.

Yeah, you're not old. There is something insane about this town that's making you say these things and making you feel really insecure. It is insane. You wish that you were old and wise. Well, listen to me. There's still so much.

Wow, I love this. There is still so much left for you to learn. This is a great tongue lashing and I've earned it. So I just, I accept it. But it also makes me think of my new favorite quote. I just heard, I know this is probably the second time I've said it down here, but my therapist just told me this quote.

He saw hanging in someone's office and it was from a female prime minister of Israel I can't remember which one and it said don't be humble. You're not that great You're not that fucking wise I'm being fully honest there's a weird evolution you move through phases and you go like, all right, I couldn't date a 27 year old. That time has passed. And it's interesting to be incompatible in that way. And I don't even know why that crosses my mind,

but it does, like all growing up, I was either meeting women my age or they were older and I could date someone older. And now I've reached an age where it would be insane if you were dating this person. I just noticed it the way I noticed I'm older than all the coaches in the NFL now. It's like, oh yeah, here's another passage of person. I just notice it. The way I notice I'm older than all the coaches in the NFL now, it's like, oh yeah,

here's another passage of time. I think that's more what I was referencing. Yeah, right. It's changes to your options. I mean, you have zero options. Well, right. Just reminding you. But yeah, the older you get, it's like,

oh, that person's really cute. Oh. That ship sailed. They're 24. That's probably not. You get used to being like the youngest and you get used to, I'm so naive, I don't know anything,

and then you're all of a sudden like, well, I better grow up now. Because everyone else is around me. Do you happen to, I feel like you would for some reason, have you seen the show Colin from Accounting? No. Fuck. Damn.

It's a great Aussie show. Okay. And it's about a couple. There's a big old age gap. Is this new? Yes. Oh, I don't know it. Well, I think they're doing season two right now.

Oh my God, it was just recommended to us and we're like blowing through it. It's unbelievably charming and cute. But they talk nonstop about how discussing it is that they're together. Sure. That is funny. That's what you gotta do when that happens.

I feel like I've been recommended this before. How small are, I mean, how old are they? Yeah, she's two foot three and he's seven foot one. On the show, I think she's playing 29. They haven't said his age, but he seems to be my age. Okay, 49. But they're a real life couple. Oh, they're real life?

Yes, they're following on Instagram. I love them so much. That sounds brilliant. They're working through something on that. Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. They need to be together. They're chemistry and they're snap, snap, snap,

so intoxicating. It's perfect, yeah. Okay, let's go back to England, 1997. This is when Little Mazey arrives. Yes. Yes. Hi. And mom and dad are divorced at four months old?

Yeah. Yeah, so you're in my boat. You don't have any memories of your parents. No, I didn't know they even met. Okay, right, and you're not- In my mind. Pining for them to get reunited or anything? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Did you have a relationship with your dad? Yes, until the age of eight. Okay, we'll end that there. Yeah. Ha ha ha ha. The face said everything. The stepdad, a nice stepdad? Yeah, really lovely.

He gets a jackpot. Yeah, and you, no. No, no, I mean, well, the last one was really nice. Okay, cool. There were a couple of doozies in between though. Yeah, my mom had like a couple of boyfriends who were always great fun and I really loved them. And then she met my stepdad.

He was really lovely. This shouldn't be a compliment for a man, but it is. Any doodoo walks in, there's four kids on the scene already, and he embraces that. I just like that person. Yeah, that's true. It's a lot. We were, well, we were.

Yeah, yeah. He also had two kids of his own. And so we like blended our family. There were six of you? There were six of us. Wow. In a three bedroom were. Yeah, yeah. He also had two kids of his own and so we like blended our family. There were six of you? There were six of us. Wow. In a three bedroom house. Oh my lord.

Yeah, it was kind of crazy. You're the youngest of the four that you're biologically related to. Where were you with the other two? They were younger than me. My sister Amy, she was like, she still has eight months younger than me. And then my brother James was

two, three years younger than me. In what age were you and the family blended? Eight or nine. So the little girl who's eight months younger than me and then my brother James was two, three years younger than me. And what age were you when the family blended? Eight or nine. So the little girl who's eight months younger than you. Did you know her at school already? No, so they went to school with their mom. So they would come at the weekends and stuff. They wouldn't fully, fully blend.

Are they still together? No. I know. These things have. That's a bummer. I know. It is. Yeah, my mom, this is what I mean about age.

In her 60s, has started again, again. Is she on apps? Because my mom is banging apps. But her sister met her now partner on plenty more fish or something. Oh, wow. And they are perfect for each other. I feel like it's coming at some point.

Yes, have you talked to her about apps? Yeah, a little bit. She's like, no. Not doing it. She's got her dog, She also looks after my dog and she goes cold water swimming and she's like, that's it. That's what I do.

Hey, I love cold water swimming. So my mom was on the apps at 72. She was fucking busy. That's fine. Yeah. And she has a boyfriend now, like a new boyfriend. There we go. And they've been on a vacation together.

They've been together a year now. That's nice. It is. Okay, but back to England a vacation together, they've been together a year now. That's nice. It is. Okay, but back to England. How far out of London were you? You're in a town of 1,500 people, like tiny, yeah? Yeah, yeah. So the closest major city was a city called Bristol.

Do you ever watch Skins? I never watch. Do you ever listen to Porter's Head? Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure. Math Attack? I have EDM. Ooh, I'm striking out. Is that an EDM?

Sort of, yeah, yeah. There, where the railways were founded. Oh, really? I have an attack. I have an EDM. Striking out. Is that an EDM? Sort of, yeah, yeah. There, where the railways were founded. Oh, really? Isn't Bard King and Brunel icon legend? We love him. Buchalek, is it like Pastoral or is it Seaside? Seaside, import, export type situation.

Interesting. I lived 20 minutes outside of there. My dad lived in the city. My mom lived outside the city and I would do every other weekend with my dad up until the age of eight. But I wasn't, you know know conscious even at that point, right Mom was an administrator at a college in Bristol, I presume Yeah, I mean my mom's done all kinds of jobs, but that was the most prominent job that she had while I was growing up

Okay, so you originally wanted to be a dancer. Yes based on who was there someone you were looking up to or anything No, I never really had any idols I think people would talk about idols and then I would manufacture them into my life Yes. Based on who? Was there someone you were looking up to or anything? No, I never really had any idols. I think people would talk about idols and then I would manufacture them into my life. But I hadn't been shown a lot of things that I was like, that's what it is. It really came from within.

I loved to dance and that was just what I always wanted. Since I can remember, I've never wanted to do anything else. Really quick, did you not idolize your older sister? And I put you in a bad position. Yes, absolutely. Because I wanted to do anything my brother did. That'size your older sister? And I put you in a bad position. Yes, absolutely. Because I didn't want to do anything my brother did. That's true.

My sister had all the coolest clothes, had all the coolest friends, would show me all the coolest films as well. Played me Titanic. She's like, this can't be you, you're born. And just, yeah, ready for this. This is the greatest love story ever told. Yes, exactly, get ready for this.

So, yeah. This is Leonardo DiCaprio. He's the hottest guy I've ever lived. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, you're right. Oh my God. But she didn't dance. No, she didn't dance. She sang. We were all kind of guy I ever lived. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, you're right. Oh my God. But she didn't dance. No, she didn't dance.

She sang. We were all kind of... I would see. I would see, yeah. Okay, so you're dancing, and then maybe this is apocryphal, but Game of Thrones is your second audition of your life? Yes.

Okay, that's absurd. But tell me about the first and how did we even get to where we're gonna audition? I went to this local dance school, which was spoken about in the area as a really good one. And it was because the teachers were so amazing. It was called Susan Hill School of Dancing. Shout out.

Shout out. And her son, George, had been a professional dancer for years and so they really understood what it took to go to the next level. All the way. Yes. And they were really, really supportive of me. And they said, you should go to stage school and do this.

But my mum had no idea how, and so they helped us with everything. Gave me the audition piece, helped me burn music onto a CD. Worked with you on the sides. Exactly, did the whole thing. Have you bought them a nice Christmas present? Is a thank you at this point?

I actually have never got them a nice Christmas present as thank you. I am the worst person ever. You might need to get them a hot tub. Yeah. We're talking about your brother. We're still actually really in touch. George'm a little with you. You might need to get them a hot tub. Yeah. We'll talk about your brother. We're still actually really in touch. George has helped me with audition pieces

in the past for things that I've done in movies and stuff. I'm still close with them. Oh, that's nice. Which is nice. What was the first audition for? Oh, no, back up. If you could objectively say what your skill level as a dancer was out of 10.

Listen, passion, enthusiasm. Counts for a lot in this world. And magnetism was of 10. Listen, passion, enthusiasm. Counts were a lot in this world. And magnetism was a 10 for sure. But I had not been training as long as a lot of these kids had. Could you do the, what do you call it, toe point? Oh yeah. You could. Oh yeah, okay, I was good, like, you know.

Well, I don't know much. I did grade six ballet, which is the highest. I was in intermediate ballet. If you're being a professional dancer, you've done that by the time you're like 16. And I feel like I was just kind of getting to that point then. Did you see Billy Elliot when you were young?

Oh, actually, tell a lie. If I had an idol, it was Billy Elliot. It really was. Love that film. Love that film. One of my favorites. You're doing the ballet. Oh, did we get a kick out of the way

they were saying ballet here? Yes. Ballet. Ballet. Ballet. Okay, so the first audition, sorry. I don't go to the school. I don't go. Well, I got in, but it's too expensive. Okay. But I start doing all these other things, and I get an agent who sees me do acting and

says, you should do that instead. And so it starts getting me auditions for things. And I met Pip Hall, who is an incredible kids casting director in London, and she was casting for Nanny McPhee to the Big Bang. Nanny McPhee to the Big Bang. Yeah, did you ever watch Nanny McPhee? I didn't. Emma Thompson. Yeah, it was, I remember.

Get that on for the kids. I loved it. You guys are much closer in age. I saw a lot of them. You're not terribly close. Okay, sorry. Just stop. This is okay. And so I try to do Nani McPhee to the Big Bang.

And that was the first audition. And did you get nervous or was that easy for you? I used to get really nervous for auditions, more so than dancing. But it was kind of my process at the time. We would get to Reading on the train and then it's 20 minutes until we get to Paddington. And I would start freaking out and crying. Not like, loudly. I would just go really quiet.

My mom would be like, you feeling okay? And I'm like, no, this is so scary. I don't wanna do this. She's like, well, maybe we go through the lines and then we go through the lines. And I'm like, okay, I just need to be like silent now until we get to the audition and then we'd get there. And I was such a happy, bright kid.

Your eyes, I'm sitting here talking to you and they've already had three different levels of moisture in them. In the last like seven seconds of you. Is that? Very dynamic. You have the option of like eight centimeters diameter or 26 centimeters.

Yeah, they do that. Yeah. Ha ha ha ha. And that's genetic, those are your eyeballs. Yeah, and I think my mom at some point was like, is this really what she should be doing? Because with the dancing, it was never like that. But it was just part of it, I think.

It was just being judged in a way that made me feel a little more insecure than the dancing. I think with the dancing, it was never like that. But it was just part of it, I think. It was just being judged in a way that made me feel a little more insecure than the dancing. I think with the dancing, I was like, I don't actually care if you don't like it because it feels good. Whereas with the acting, it was like still very new where I was like, this sometimes feels really not great. I also think it's easier to make your body move

through muscle memory in a way you've practiced than it is to go control your voice and your delivery. Right, and the point is, is they go, can you do it differently now? And you go, well, maybe, but. Right, I've been practicing it this way for the last two days. Exactly. Yeah, and you did a ballet thing,

and they're like, all right, I'll do that as a jazz ensemble. Right, there's no one to it. I'll do that as a line dancer. You'll be like, I didn't practice that. Yes, nerve-wracking. Now, when you got Aria, the script, and I'll be like, I didn't practice that. Yes, nerve wrecking. Now, when you got Aria the script, and I'll be honest, we watched the pilot of the show and I was like,

I don't know, man, the brother and sister are fucking, they killed a kid. I don't know, we put it down for, I don't know, probably a year and a half and then finally enough people were talking about it, they were like, all right, let's go back. Then I got fully into it, but it's got a bit of shock value and I'm just curious, was mom at all concerned about the subject matter?

Not for reasons to not let me do it. We're very fortunate, lucky people, but not really from a place where opportunities come around that often and we had really been pushing for this. I just knew it was what I wanted to do and I was so lucky that my mom was down for me to do it. Did you feel a little bit safety netted by it being HBO? Because again, you could read the same. I had no idea who HBO were. You didn't.

I had a friend who's part of her family lived in the US and she was like, HBO is apparently good. And I was like, okay, well, that's good. Let me dig into this a little bit. Yeah, we're not cinema fans. We're not television fans. We're not aware of this world at all. There's things that had cut through. This is not the world that

we are familiar with. So it turned out to be the jackpot, but also had it been anything, had it been a tiny role on doctors, on BBC, we would have been like screaming the house back. Yeah, that makes sense. But it turned out to be this, which is like, I'm the rainbow. That's kind of ridiculous and insane. Yeah, there's like a handful of these. I always give the example, and I don't know why, and again, you didn't follow TV, so this would mean nothing to you,

but Ashton Kutcher's very first audition was that 70 show, and it ran for seven years and was syndicated. You might act your whole life and never get on a show that ended up getting syndicated, and sometimes that just happens Wait, so how old were you exactly? I forget I was 12 when I got the part like 11 when I was auditioning Oh, so maybe it was at this time of year as we approach your birthday. It was I have a tattoo to my own It's the 7th of August

2009 when I got the part. Oh, I love that you have that tattooed. That's lovely and it's 789 Which is key. I mean here you guys would would do 879, but you're wrong. You're right. I was just filling out a visa application today. Oh, did you do it wrong? Well, I was on the verge of doing it wrong, but luckily there was a drop down menu. And then I had to acknowledge we do do it wrong

because it makes no sense. It's not in ascending order here. Here I would say I was born 1,275 January 2nd. But if you think about it, I went month, day, year. It should go day, then months bigger, then years bigger. There is a logic to it, and I don't know how we ended up with this. Except it's sort of like the big bucket,

and then the smaller bucket, and then the biggest bucket. And then the less relevant bucket. It doesn't ascend, and it should. Yeah, but it's also because you guys say January 4th, January 5th, whereas we would say the 4th of January. So it makes sense already, because you're saying 4th of January, when you're doing it short hand,

you know, you're going 4th one. Well, what you've robbed yourself of is May the 4th be with you. Exactly. I actually had an ex-boyfriend who was born on May the 4th. And was he American or English? He was English, but it didn't make sense for us to be like 4th of May be with you. Hey, you were like totally wronged of that.

That's one thing to think about. Yeah, that's true. I wonder what things were missing by doing the wrong order. Not a lot. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. Where do you shoot the pilot? What country do you go to? Northern Ireland. Which was how far away from where you lived?

It took like 45 minutes on an airplane. So that's not bad at all. No, it was great. At the time it was the furthest away from my house that I've been. Actually, I tell you, I went Disneyland Paris. Ooh. You did. What do you rate it?

I've only been to Disney World and Disney World. I was in a push chair. But there's a really funny picture of me. Oh, you were in a what? A pram. Stroller. Oh, a stroller. Oh, oh, oh. I feel like I'm in a wheelchair.

Oh no. That's why I wanted to clarify. What did you enter? I was in a stroller. But there's this really funny picture of me next to Tigger and I look really really really happy. Oh! And were you like one?

I guess. Parents will really take their kids to Disney. I mean my mom and dad took me to Disney and those strollers. Yeah you're a blog. For years. What for? Yeah. It's beautiful because right out of the gate you're trying to Disney in those strollers. Yeah, you're a blob. For years. What for? Yeah. It's beautiful, because right out of the gate,

you're trying to give them everything you can. I know, it's sweet. It's really sweet. Totally wasted on them. Look, our kids went all around the world, and they don't have a single memory of any of it. They were in Cuba when they were fucking three and one. I know.

That is so funny. Yeah, what are you going to do? Did you feel at all lonely during any of that? Because everyone's a bit older than you? Not lonely. I was having one-on-one time with my mom, hanging out with Sophie, who has become my... How much older is she than you?

A year. Oh, okay. Okay. We got to stay in a hotel with a pool and a sauna and a spa. Yes. And we would go shopping with the Purdy. I was like, Mom, how much of that Purdy M do we have left? Because if we shop at Pizza Express again,

then we can go to Topshop and get more clothes. Now look, the show had so many incredible characters. But for sure yours is one of the ones. Like you really got, I don't want to say lucky, it's you. It was a very cool character. She's cool. She's got her needle. I love her needle.

I love her needle. And she's a tomboy. You're not supposed to say that, but in all my research, they kept saying it, so now I'm gonna say it. She's a tomboy. But yeah, it's like going against this frilly

kind of other side of it. You're counter-programming within it. The whole thing was kind of punk rock. She was. I only am now really realizing that, because I think people would say it a lot, but I was so disconnected from it. When House of the Dragon came out two years ago,

I rewatched Game of Thrones because I haven't watched it since it was televised. And there's some episodes that I haven't even seen. The last couple of series I didn't watch because it was just so bizarre. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna watch. What is this show? What is the thing you're really excited about?

And then I was like, oh, I really understand because I've watched a lot of television since. Oh, I really see how that's a special character. So I grew up watching Alien and Terminator 2. I loved Sarah Connor. I said to my friend while I was filming Game of Thrones, I was like, I want to do a character like that. And then my friend was like,

that's sort of like what you're doing. Yeah, you already are. Well, congratulations, because you've been doing it for four years. Right, right. And so I think now I can look at it and go, yeah, I just feel a sense of pride. Yeah, you're playing a badass, and a little badass.

It's also very Manly Portman professional. Very. Did you ever see that? I did. Yeah. Breakout role. I actually met her at a film festival once. It was a cool moment.

I could gauge a little bit that she knew who I was, so I was like, that's cool. And I was just so excited because of that kind of parallel. I love her, I love her career. Now, the only episode I wanna ask you about is it's kind of a cool distinction to have that you were in the longest fight scene that's ever existed in a movie or on television.

Wait, which one? From the Long Night episode. Oh, yeah. That's the longest battle scene in film until the kiss can die. My question is, A, what was that like? How many days did you shoot that? Were you completely lost in all the different bits

of action and what's it like to juggle something like that? So the prep on that was unbelievable. We had started filming in autumn the other day. We got to that episode in, I think it was like the February of the year after, and we shot for three months at nighttime. Oh my God. Yeah, I mean, I'm saying we.

I was there for a handful of nights compared to the crew that literally went nocturnal for three months and didn't see any of their family or children. It was a lot. Working on that show required so much more than just the average job for them. So we did a lot of prep. There was this whole rendered version of

the episode and so we all had the script and we all had this big meeting at the Winterfell Castle a couple of weekends in a row actually and they'd bring all the different actors in at different points and we just talked through the whole thing and then we had a big map of the castle and where everyone is it was kind of like a real battle you know we had the little people and Miguel our incredible director had it all in his mind and so there would be a lot of people. Like the little people. And Miguel, our incredible director, had it all in his mind. And so there would be a couple of weekends of these rehearsals. By the way, it's actually snowing at the time.

And so it's freezing out there. We also have all the fake snow and the fake fire. And then they just broke it down into the tiny little pieces. I had a couple of moments where I was working with Sophie when we're standing and looking at the start of the battle. And we're just looking out into darkness. Nothing, yeah. Kind of just messing around for most part.

And then there's a big fight thing that I do through one of the battlements. That was another bit I twist my ankle quite badly that day because I had to run away and they had all these fake bodies on the ground and it was super dark. So I like slipped on one of them and it happens. How about this? How would you compare your real life athleticism to arias? Oh, I was so much better when I was playing aria. I enjoy exercise for sure, but it's gotta be something that I love to do.

I'm using a little bit. Dancing. Yeah, right, I've gotta be doing something that's fun. And when I was doing that, I was loving learning the sword fighting, but I was like working with a team every single day. So it's different to getting up and being like, now we're gonna jog.

And you were using your left hand even though you're right handed, which is adorable. I was. Yeah, I know. I was right handed on a movie. Well, it didn't even say, but I was like- But you were left handed in real life? I'm left handed in real life. Love that.

Oh, thank you so much. Well done. I'm proud of it. Yeah, it's one of the coolest things. It's like being an elf kind of. But I- It's funny that you're proud of it. I am, I am. No, it's great.

It's like my dislike C.M., my left hand is. I know, but okay, I know, but- It's something I overcame. The world's designed for right handies. Oh, okay. Go ahead, go ahead. No, no, no. I get it, it's cool, because it's rare.

Of all people, you love rare. I love it. Remember the decision. I love that you're left-handed. I think it's a little funny that you personally are proud of it. I am, I am. That it's not something that you- A win's a win. that you personally are proud of it. I am. That it's not something that you did.

I win the win. Yeah, that's true. I guess let's just take what we can. Yeah, exactly. I certainly didn't earn it. I just was born this way, but I'll take it, you know. I get it. Okay, so back to the left.

I did this movie called Let's Go to Prison, and I was a career prisoner. I was constantly in and out of jail. And of course, because I am so proud of being left-handed, I'm like, that's a right-handed guy. Oh, God. I just arbitrarily decided, well, there's no way that guy of being left handed. I'm that's a right handed guy. Oh, God. Arbitrarily decided, well, there's no way that guy would be left. He's not artistic. He's like a crook.

I did not practice really at all. I just was, I'm going to be right handed. I'm in a scene with Will Arnett and Michael Shannon, who's scaring the shit out of us. And I go to casually take a bite of food with my right hand without ever practicing. I just immediately stab myself in the eye with a fork. I went to hit my mouth and I just went like, oh, fuck, I ruined a take. Was that kind of in character?

Like, was the character stupid? No, I was pretty cool. Oh, that's a tough guy. You should see that. I haven't seen it. I've kind of heard. I've seen a lot of your movies. Or maybe I should be flatter

because you're not gonna see that guy's movie. Exactly. I don't know which way to go. Did you ever do anything stupid to yourself because you weren't good with your left hand? Well, kind of. It was sort of a combination of people's fault. I don't want to say it was fully my fault, but there's a moment where I'm jabbing the hound in his chest plate

with my sword, and obviously it's like not going through because he's got armor on. And they wanted to get a nice close-up shot of the sword warping, but we need to use the real sword that doesn't warp as easily because it's the close shot and it's like... Yeah, money shot. Yeah, yeah. And I jabbed it in and then a combination of people,

it was a lot of curks, you know? And I'm like, I'm warping it. I'm trying to tell someone how I want to warp it while another person is saying, do you think that you could stab him and they move the tip of the sword? And where I'm trying to warp it, I flick the sword and crack my sword on the eyebrow.

And for the rest of the day, they have to like shoot me from the other side because I've got this huge egg on my... Really? It was so embarrassing. Like, you know when you can hear, everyone go like... Pfft.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was just like, don't cry, don't cry. Oh, God. And if you were using your right hand, maybe wouldn't have happened. I don't know, I think it probably still would have. I think that was actually just me. That's a great behind the scenes moment.

Like you have these scenes, you see them on shows, and you don't realize to your point, there's 65 fucking people involved in this one little thing. Someone's adjusting the collar on your shirt while this is going on. Not only are too many people talking, but all of a sudden you're like, who's pulling on me? Yeah, and they're like, oh, your mic packs on the floor.

You're like, okay, fine, go, go, go, go like, oh, your mic pack's on the floor. You're like, okay fine. Go, go, go. Someone's like dabbing some anti-sheen cloth on your face. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The wet sponge. Oh my god on that show. So we'd have all these neck rags. Because they were always sweaty. Yeah, we had to be dirty. Oh yeah. And oh man.

Glycerine, right? Is that what they're using? Yeah, and just fake mud. And Aria, she was so dirty. You were one of the dirtiest. For the longest time, too. They got the Emmy so well done. But they wanted every bit of skin that was ever shown. So if I wasn't wearing socks, then they were dirty like up to here on my ankles. All the way up to my elbows around my neck and my chest.

And then they put on this huge collar thing. And it was great. But oh my God. This is my bunch. I remember that so much because you're negotiating with them. You're like, just so you know, I don't know if you read the whole scene, but I never pull my pants up to my knee,

nor do I move in a way that that could ever happen. Yeah, I'm like, you're never gonna see it, please, please. Yes, yes. And then they have this stupid bag, they just keep blotting your clothes with the bag of dirt. Yeah, and it's like, did you like your lunch? Okay, well, let's put some more dirt on you now. Let's pig pin you and surround you in a cloud of dirt.

This is why acting is hard. People can act in their bedroom in a vacuum. A lot of people can. Self tape. Or even just, I think a person at home when they watch a movie, they think like, I could do that. But the thing is, is doing it and being believable and being in character when all that's happening.

When people are all around you and you're taken out of it to then click in so quickly. It's like acting natural while getting attacked by a swarm of bees. It's so much harder than people think that bees. By the way, whenever there's like the fake food on set, there are bees too. Right, and you're always like,

do I ignore that clearly this flies in shots? Just do I acknowledge that as a good actor or do I ignore it as a good actor? Yeah, do I want to interrupt the take even though I know that this is a ruined take? Yeah, maybe I can salvage it by acknowledging there's a fucking fly. Yeah, there we go.

Okay, to shift gears to something more emotional. When I track my life from 12, so 12, just to catch up to speed, is the highlight of my life. Seventh grade, I'm actually super cute. Eighth grade, it started to fade. By ninth grade, I'm a Cyclops. It goes to hell in a hand basket.

I could barely get myself to show up at school a lot of mornings There'd be like a huge pimple on my nose I'm like I cannot see Nicole Gates with this thing on my nose and the notion that I would have had to have gone Through puberty entirely on the most popular show the world seems very stressful to me I think that I am very blessed not to say that you weren't but my mum is so not a vain person at all. I'm vain I admit to it. I didn't mean to sound like that but she's the opposite. We don't talk about that because why would you? It's self-indulgent. Exactly and so I think that that really helped me out although it didn't stop those feelings but I really do appreciate that I maybe

didn't have the language to be able to describe that discomfort. I just knew it was uncomfortable. I think there was just an acceptance where I was like, well, this is just life. So this is how you're gonna feel. And I guess it's not until I've come out the other side and realized, no, that's what it's like when you're 16 or even up until like 21.

Well, that's a good point. Like you might have been crediting it to the experience, but it would just been that experience anyways. Is that what you're saying? That's what I think. Yes, but here's what I think would be tricky, is that is the exact period that you also try on some new identities in search of your own.

And so the fact that you're locked into this other identity has to be complicated. Right. It's not like you can fuck around with a new hairstyle. There's a lot of stuff you can't really fuck around with to figure out who you are. I know that it was really challenging, but I don't have anything else to compare it to.

Yeah. And I think it's so much better to ask someone who knows me. Like what was she dealing with at that time? Yeah, because I just really have a hard time being able to see it. You'd have to be able to imagine what quote normal was and then compare it to what you felt. I didn't love that I couldn't control my image.

I didn't love that even when I did control my image, everyone had something to say about it. I didn't love that I had to be photographed on camera even on the days where I didn't really want to be photographed on camera. But I loved meeting Emma Stone at the Screen Actors Guild Award. And it's sitting in first class and trying to sneak a champagne

when I was like 16. So... Pros and cons. Exactly. I think that I really just tried to get through it. And it's not until now... I kind of feel bad a little bit for who I was when I was younger because I just didn't know that it was gonna get so much better. I had so accepted that and squished myself so small

because of those uncomfortable things. And it's not until now that, yeah, I just think about that really earnest girl who was so confused and really thought, this is life and I gotta be grateful that I'm now just able to have so much more fun. You're probably denying a lot of your feelings. Then, completely.

Of course. Because of all these things, you'd be ungrateful, and this is great, and you'd stop being a baby, and blah, blah, blah, blah. So post-show, come 2019, did you have a phase where basically you lived out what it would have been like to be 16 and in the world? For sure.

The lockdown came pretty close after that point. I mean, I had a summer of amazing fun. I went to all the music festivals, not the Coachella's and the Glastonbury's, all of the small ones. I'm very good at being off-grid, not with the cameras and such. So, did all that, it was amazing.

Then there was a lockdown, and then it was kind of a little existential crisis, like most people went through. Yes, also mid-20s. Right. Yeah, and you were just trapped for your whole life, and then now, it's time to be free, and it's time to go explore, and then were just trapped for your whole life and then now it's time to be free and it's time to go explore And then you're stuck in your house. Yeah, but I did kind of love it though. I was a bit more worried about when it lifted

I was like, oh god, this is the best thing in my life. I'm expected to resume living Yeah, things started to lift and I got another job and I was like, okay There's a life outside of the show. Was that job pistol? Mm-hmm. And I guess that was the one thing I really wanted to ask you about other big game of thrones, just cause I'm kind of obsessed with Danny Boyle.

And I grew up loving the Sex Pistols. I love working with Danny. For this, I feel like the theme is chaos and anarchy, right? Yeah. And so creating that safe place for chaos and anarchy, who would get up on stage at the beginning of the day and we'll speak about the time, the place and get everyone really riled up

and then we'd shoot and party and it's like the middle of the lockdown and so we're in these clubs in London, fake partying with fake cigarettes and fake beer. And it just was so cathartic to like shout and scream and the boys played live music throughout the whole show and so we just got to wear these crazy hair and makeup, watch all these gigs.

You're like robbed of some things as a young actor, and then also you're gifted. So you got to kind of have the 80s punk experience. Right. And then get a paycheck on Friday. Exactly. That was a cool job where I was like, I feel like I'm sitting into this acting thing.

And now here's the question. So I did a lot of exploration of different identities, and I would like try out looks some felt right and some didn't I loved that so when you were in character of Jordan because she defined a whole aesthetic so when you were first in the get-up where you're like fuck. Yeah I think this is kind of kind of could do this in real life Yeah, for sure I was wearing all of this latex and these fake leather things and plastic PVC.

And I think before that, when it was COVID, I was wearing sweats the whole time. And then I was like, oh, this is so crazy. And then I was like, this feels fucking powerful. Yeah. Yeah, the thing that appealed to me about it, and I've said it at nauseam on here, is in a weird way, it's a complete rejection of the rules everyone else is playing by. And there is the perception that you're so confident that you don't need to go after the conventional validation.

And even though you're insecure, the outfit gives it to you, other people buy it, and then it reverse-engineers onto you. And you do feel confident. You're like, yeah, look at me, I'm walking around like a fucking freak. No one's braving up to do this. Walking on to set as Jordan, I was like,

this is how it feels to conduct yourself in this way. It just all comes right back at you. And I was like, all right, well, when this lockdown's done. Okay. Now we must talk about the new look. I'm hoping you know a lot of the history of this because I recently heard someone stand up set. I think it was Bill Burrs. About Chanel.

Yeah. Was it his? Uh-huh. Okay. So you're scared. Yeah. I'm not saying... Uh-uh. Billburs about Chanel yeah, was it is okay, so you're scared So the show that you're now in that comes out on a very auspicious day for us Valentine's Day our anniversary Oh my god amazing the new look which is on Apple Plus Okay set in World War two walk me through the history of this. Why is this the period by which we would want to look at? The shan. Yeah, yeah, you guys are gonna have to take over.

Oh, I'm so excited to watch this. Christian Dior. Coco Chanel. It's set during World War II, and it's a time in history that we've seen so many stories about, but it's crazy to think that this is also when the golden era of fashion is happening in Paris.

So Chanel at this point is the grand-dame of fashion. She's an icon and she's like the ruler of couture. Christian Dior is working for a designer called Lucien Alon. Lucien Alon will be played by John Malkovich. Ooh, the laugh. A million questions about that, but earmark. His younger sister, who is who I play, Catherine Dior, is part of the French resistance.

So Nazi-occupied Paris, Christian's working for Lucien Alon making money, bankrolling his sister, so his sister can be part of the French resistance. So Nazi occupied Paris, Christians working for Lucine Alon making money, bankrolling his sister. So his sister can be part of the resistance, staying his apartment, be safe, but go and do this very dangerous work. She gets captured and taken to the camps. This is all historically accurate.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, this happens. So his sister was in the resistance. Yeah. Resistance. Resistance. But even better. Resistance. And then all even better. Resistance. And all the while he's working with Lucine along

and then at some point while she's away, he decides he wants to start his own fashion house. And so this is kind of the story of how people survived during the war, how businesses survived during the war, how when the worst things in our lives happen to us, you can kind of push that into your work and create something which revolutionizes fashion. The New Look is one of the most revolutionary collections that there has ever been.

And it was called The New Look? Well it was coined by a journalist for Harper's Bazaar. She was called Carmel Snow. In our show, she's played by Glenn Close. Oh, legendary. Mike. Glenn Close, John Malkovich, sharing the screen for the first time since Dangerous Liaison. Oh!

I know. Ding, ding, ding, ding. Exciting. Oh, yeah. That's the backdrop. I'm thrilled. So it's a show about fashion. There's glamour, but you're seeing the real human story.

Do you all sit around the table with Cristobal Balenciaga and Pierre Cardin? All of these names, they grew up together in Paris. That's when it all started. And they would eat at Cafe de Flora? Yeah, apparently. Yeah, okay. Great, remember how much I wanted to eat? You are obsessed.

I am, it's legendary. I still want to go. We never did go. Oh, we did, we did, second day, okay. You had to like pull some strings. Yeah, I had to find someone that knew me in France. Wasn't the easiest task. I'm so excited for this show.

This is so up my, I mean, I am. I wanna say trailer. I was like, Monica, is it gonna have spray? Oh, I'm so excited. I love fashion. There we go. So how much do you know about this story? Only the thing we're not allowed to talk about.

Right, she's the only one that's had a buy-in. Oh, well that's fun. That's great. You're super into fashion. Yes. And we're gonna get to that. Now, the reason that I think I find my way into this show is to your point We've seen so many stories of the Nazis come in France falls in two seconds and they don't live under Nazi rule

Well, we never get into how the sausage is made during that time Like it's very curious to me how businesses still Functioned and how they had these Nazis around that is a very curious period if you imagine us being overthrown tomorrow by Russia But we're still allowed to do this podcast That's what was happening like it's weird. I mean we wouldn't be able to do this. They'd kill us We're on record now like in Putin right well, yeah, they would want to take it over and hear you saying actually I take it all back I love him. Yes. I just learned of some of his childhood traumas and I'm very Yeah, so it was a massive thing, you know.

Chanel closed shop. She said, that's it, we're not doing business. But Lucien long stayed open. And this is what this show really gets into, is that it's not black and white. It's very complicated, these stories. And there is right and there's wrong. There's truth and there's fiction, of course.

But there's what happened, and there's everyone's side of the story. There's nuance. There is, and that's what you can do in ten hours of television. You're right, even the thing we're not going to talk about. Pfft. The bottom line is no one in this conversation knows what it's like to be occupied within a week by the Third Reich. So how we all think we would act is just kind of a fantasy.

We're projecting the best version of ourselves, not the most scared, the most hungry, the most terrified. No one knows what they would do. It was a terrifying time for a lot of people, and we look back now and go, oh, this is the right and the wrong side. It's so obvious, a retro-spec. I think what the story does really well is dive into how complex that is.

When you're dealing with people that don't have the same rulebook as us. They have a whole different code of ethics. Exactly. It's kind of impossible for us to just be playing by our rule book. What if I could do it like this? No, someone's got a gun to your head.

That's not how we're doing it. You know that thing we're not allowed to talk about? Yeah. Two things, one, they shouldn't sue us because if they do, they're just taking money out of their own pocket. They're gonna get your money anyways. Right, so they might as well.

They might as well not. Exactly, just buy another bag and say sorry. It's penny wise and pound full. It's Pennywise and Poundful. That's right. Just steal a precious one. Also one good PR move, I studied PR. You have a degree. A good PR move for them would be to hire someone,

not Aryan, me. Indian, specifically maybe Indian. To maybe do a campaign. There we go, that's what they should do. It's like a good PR move, I'm just saying. It's a great counter punch. Tell me why, because I'm a Philistine, what was Christian Dior's proprietary genius?

What made him be able to compete with Chanel? I think that he, at the time, was not only an incredible artist, dressmaker, but he also knew business. He was putting influences in his dresses before we were doing that whole thing. It's like dressing people that are really controversial in Paris.

This is post-war, not controversial for those reasons, but people who are making headlines, he's taking them into couture. And it was that kind of thing that really disrupted the landscape at the time. Right, from my era, using punk rockers and stuff, Madonna being somebody you would bring into high fashion, all these kind of provocative moves. Exactly.

Also just beautiful tailoring. Yeah, and the new look. So during World War I, Chanel is taking away the corsets, giving women trousers, very progressive in terms of the feminist movement. This is also the controversy of it all. Do you all bring back courses, tiny waste, and lowers the hemlines again back to something a little... Elizabethan. Right, that's also another storyline

that's going on in the show. But he's trying to bring back this time before the war when things were opulent and when women didn't have to work. A fantasy nostalgia. But that silhouette that he coined, you'll see it everywhere. That's the one this was gonna ask They obviously wouldn't have your character in this show unless she played some kind of significant role in his

Journey right so how did she impact his voyage other than he was housing a criminal when she returned and survived I mean how anyone even kind of returns to life after going through something like that is obviously not without a lot of turmoil. But they grew up together in Granville and their parents had this incredible garden and lots of roses. Dior moved into perfume and he created this perfume that he ended up naming after her called Miss Dior. But Catherine speaks about smelling that perfume

for the first time, this is post-war, this is when she's back in Caliand and just trying to sort of scramble a life back together. And she spoke about smelling that perfume and for the first time since that really traumatic part of her life, feeling back in her body again and back to herself. And I think Dior was a gay man,

but at a time where I was not okay, Catherine always really accepted him for that, but he didn't have a lot of these female muses. It makes sense that the only woman in his life who he loved and adored this feminine energy was his sister Catherine. And so she became the original muse. When we think about fashion muses, think about the models of today. We think about these big billboards.

It's kind of nice to learn about this woman who was not a particularly glamorous woman. She was hardworking, tough, and a soldier. I just think that that's lost from a consciousness a little bit. It reminds me of Esther Perel talking about having grown up in, I think, Belgium in a community of Holocaust survivors and how what came to define who thrived and who it killed was who had accepted eroticism back into their life. And not in our colloquial interpretation of eroticism,

but just life. And like smelling those flowers or that perfume, it seems like a convenient story device, but literally that's what Esther Perl said, made the difference for people whether they thrived or not ever again. That's incredible. It's like, could they latch on to the sensual and could they latch on to the life?

Yeah. How much of this did you know prior to doing this and how much have you learned from doing it? I knew very, I knew about the collection, the new look. I'd always been fascinated by that silhouette and as someone who enjoyed fashion, I knew the impact of that collection, but I knew nothing about Catherine.

I knew nothing about Mr. Yor, I knew nothing about Catherine. I knew nothing about Mr. Yor. I knew nothing about Chanel. Todd Kessler, the showrunner of it. He comes from bloodlines, sopranos, and damages. So why is this his project? Well, I mean, Todd could probably speak about this better than I can, but when I got on a call with him, and what made me so excited about doing this show with him,

was he just came at it so organically. I think he first had this idea 20 years ago or something. I think he was sitting in a waiting room and there was this book on Dior's life. And I think he draws similarities between Dior's incredible life and career and tragic, very sudden passing. How old was he when he died? I think he was like in his 40s maybe. Yeah.

Now I'm seeming a little old, right? You're gonna take back that earlier comment. And then his late friend James Gandolfini and similar conversations that he had had that he was reading in Dior's memoir. And I just think that he had this moment where he was like, I don't know anything about fashion. I don't know anything about this world.

But what I do think I understand is this character Dior, and I think that I wanna read more. And then obviously this is the precipice of fashion as we know it now. It is wild that these brands that are still at the very apex are going on 80 years old. From that time. I'm sure Chanel's 100 years old.

I don't know how old Chanel is, but it's kind of wild. So you learned a lot of it from doing the show, but then you also supplemented, did you read anything? Is there anything cool I should read? Did you read The Christian Dior Biography or something? Yes, I think it's called Dior on Dior or Dior by Dior. That's a great little memoir that he's done. Oh, he wrote it himself? Yeah. Oh, wonderful.

There's this other incredible book which is called Miss Dior, and that's by Justine Picardie, and she does a full detail of Catherine's life. She also did one on Coco Chanel, which I've not read, but apparently very, very interesting. And then there are also these papers that were sealed shut post-war. There's like a whole legal process that's going on. And there's so much evidence and there's so many statements that a lot of things get redacted and they get sealed off. And there's a couple of papers that I think came to light recently. I think it was like maybe the 80s that have not been told on screen before.

And so I think a lot of this, Adam, has taken and put into our show. Maisie, you cannot tell that you didn't go to school. Yes, I agree. That is so flattering. Someone tell the Daily Mail that. Please. They said that. You ever been to school, so you're 14.

They shamed you? Yeah, it was so backhanded and bizarre, too. Such a great publication. I'm so shocked. Yeah, it was so backhanded and bizarre too. Such a great publication, I'm so shocked with it. Yeah, exactly. It's the only one I've ever sued and won. Oh my God, amazing. Yeah, yeah.

Can you tell me about it? Well, just that you can't print pictures of children in England, thank God. It's the one thing they have. And then they did that and then we were like, hey, you're not allowed to do that. We sued them in way one. I mean, you just do it so they'll stop.

You don't get anything. You get your legal fees. It's not like I got any money. But they. We see them in way one. I mean, you just do it so they'll stop. You don't get anything. You get your legal fees. It's not like I got any money. But they said you didn't go to school. Yeah, they just did a nice profile on me when I was 15 or 16, because I did leave and was homeschooled instead. And it's so not a bizarre thing,

but they just treated it. I think there's also a lot of classism, perhaps. I was gonna say, this feels a little more English. It's like had I been in a super wealthy family, a private school, and then taken out and homeschooled in a very bohemian way. Yeah. You know what I mean? Sure.

Like it would have been, oh, she's interesting. Posh. It was not that. You're just a junkyard dog. Right. And they were like, how will she ever fucking cope? Oh my God. Do you have insecurities at all about that? Not at all. No, I really didn't love

School so I think it was good to cut ties, but I think about it a lot if and when I have children I'm like, what will I do with them? because A lot of things in my history, although I wouldn't love to do it again Definitely made me a more interesting person. How far do you traumatize your children in order to make them interesting? I'm currently evaluating that hourly. There we go. You give your kids everything and you're like, you're never gonna be cool now.

Well, yeah, there's that and then also You do, you give them everything and then they don't get something for the first time in their entire life at 19 and they have zero fucking coping mechanism. Yeah, and then Xanax seems very appealing at that point. Boom, how else? There we go, that was viral. ["Spring Day"] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

I have two completely inane questions. One is, will you explain to me the cultural relevance of Doctor Who? This is like a very big thing in England, right? It is. Is there been multiple versions of it? Explain it to me. Yes. So Doctor Who is a character. Is he like James Bond?

I guess. He's like James Bond and he's on television and at a certain point he regenerates and becomes a new body. And he's just this massive franchise and there's all these crazy aliens that come back time and time again and it's like James Bond, you know what you're gonna get. But it is huge. I saw Louis through recently and I was so like, oh my god, I was looking through. My money don't jiggle jiggle right false

I've had a little alcohol beverage. I was like oh my god. You're doing your own things now if you want to interview me And then he's oh yeah, you're on dr. Who and I was thinking well not the first one that people go to but okay But it is. It's like an institution there, right? Seems to be one of the only ones that you guys have that hasn't really transferred here, right? Cause even we went mad for Downton Abbey and we've gone mad for these things,

but I guess there are fans of it, but it's not. It's more culty for fans here. I would say it's like that in the UK too. Oh really? Yeah, I think it's more culty. There was David Tennant's era that I watched growing up because it was like part of the UK too. Oh really? Yeah, I think it's more culty. There was David Tennant's era that I watched growing up because it was like part of the reboot, but it's an acquired taste.

Yeah, and is there an era that people unanimously agree is the high watermark for Doctor Who? Like if I were gonna check it out, which era should I be watching? David Tennant. That's the one. Of course. David T.

Broad Church. Oh, I love Broad Church. He's the main dude. He's so good. He's so good. You can't date him because you saw his shit. Yeah. He's not for me.

I'm too big of a fan. Although she said she would date Sean Penn who's 70 and you've seen all his steps and some of these people do. Yeah, who we setting you up with then? Sean Penn, who else was on your list? Pitt. Brad Pitt. Okay.

That's a givvy. Yeah, it's like what haven't I watched yet? Right, none of Brad Pitt's movies. I haven't seen anything of him. I just heard he's good. Wow. Birdie's good looking. Yeah. I haven't actually seen him,

but people think he's handsome. I've heard he's handsome. Yeah. He seems to be a synonym for Hottest Person Ever Live. So I'm inclined to believe people. I saw on Instagram a picture today of him and Gwyneth Paltrow when they were dating and they're like walking out of the street.

He has a cigarette hanging out of his mouth. I mean... He's so cool. He's still so cool. Would you date him? Now? Yeah, I mean, like where is the age break up for Brad Pitt? I think I would date some people his age, but I wouldn't date him.

Okay, not him. What about what? Too famous? Too hot, too nice, too famous, too rich. What is it? He's not your type. Too good in bed. I don't know what it is.

I guess, haven't met him, don't know yet. I think he'd make you feel very self-conscious. Yeah, I think, you know, if we're going down that, yeah. You know, we're going full circle now. I'd be like, actually, you know what, I can't. It's too much. You know what? I'd be like constantly thinking

about everyone else he's dating and being like, oh Jesus like But okay, I actually think of all people I would be the least self-conscious with him because he's so famous He really has his full pick besides you who you've said no to him. Yeah, you're on a very short list. Sorry, Brad. Keep shopping, bro. But everyone would say yes to him. So if he's saying, I really like you, I would really be able to take that to heart.

Yeah. Because he just has all the options and he's picking me. OK, then you don't feel this insecure. And you have nothing to offer Brad Pitt. You're not going to elevate his status. He must really like me. You don't have a cooler plane than him. There's nothing on the table. All you like me. Yeah. You don't have a cooler plane than him.

There's nothing on the table. Yeah, yeah. All you have is you, which he doesn't have. It's sort of a man's heart. Oh, no, it is. The one thing he doesn't have. Oh! This is so beautiful.

So who's the oldest actor you would date? I just want to get a barometer here. Can you think of a couple that are oldest health? Yeah, like Matthew McConaughey. Oh. That's a good pick. Yeah. Have you heard my McConaughey?

You don't have to shut your eyes. Yeah, okay. Close your eyes. Amazing, amazing, amazing. Just checked out the new look. Boy, you're dynamite, you're so good. Of course I liked you in the Game of Thrones, but who didn't?

This is way more you, your revolution. I'm old as fuck, but guess what? You'll never know it. It's still going. First of all, let's rate the impression before we get grossed out. It was very, very, but guess what? You'll never know it. It's still going. First of all, let's rate the impression before we get grossed out. It was very, very, very good. It was like he was in the room with me.

That's so nice. Oh, God. And guess what? He's back. You have the little whistle too. Well, I got a whole thing because Monica throws up when I do impersonation. So I cover up there.

Oh my God. I cover myself. It just won't stop. It's just crazy because I love that new. Once you click in, you just don't want to end. He my God. I cover myself. It just won't stop. It's just crazy. Oh my God. Cause I love my nails. Once you click in, you just don't want to end. It's so fun. I start channeling on me, I think.

I start thinking like him. Yeah. I had a post once, I was in Sedona sitting on a rock and I started talking like him. And then I was feeling what I know he would be feeling. And I came up with something that I wouldn't think of this thing. Yeah.

But I was like, yeah, I know. Sorry Monica, it's this time of the show. We're gonna do it again, that what's on the Instagram? Yes, because for me, I haven't seen it. For me, okay, for me, it's for her. But this just came into my head, he's like, this place makes me wanna meet the man upstairs, shake his hand, see how he's doing.

Doesn't that sound like this is so my money would wanna shake God's hand. It's a very left handed quality that you're showing us right now. Oh, oh, oh, oh. I'm very lucky. Oh, boy. Woo.

Thank you. There's no one who does it like you. Take that monocle. I'm happy that she said that to you. No, I don't think so. Yeah, I am. I just want you to be careful. Okay.

Tread lightly. Yeah, I just wanted to be really careful. He would okay. Tread lightly? Yeah, I just wanted him to be really careful. He would say tread lightly too. He would. Green latch. Okay, that's a good one. Some McConaughey's or anyone else. Yeah, that's a good one.

This is a fun game. Now I'm blanking. And to any older actor you didn't pick, it's just because Mizzie forgot you. Exactly. Except Brad. Who do you think that I should date? I'm in the market.

Okay. If that was the game, the first time I date someone older, they're an actor, it's making the headlines. Who was it? Oscar Isaac market. Okay. If that was the game the first time I date someone older They're an actor. It's making the headlines. Who is it Oscar Isaacs? Oh That's a great Yeah, he's great. He's phenomenal. Oh Sam Rockwell, he's married, but let's forget. Yeah, you know, this is a silly game We're not yeah, I'm from Sam Rockwell. Yeah. I would place you with him. Oh, cool. By your agent, that's who I would try to get

to call General West. I'm gonna write to my husband immediately. Keep an eye on his marriage. Put him on my Google Alo. I'll do one last one. He might be too serious for you. Okay. But artistically I want this for you, Mark Ruffalo.

Great. Great. No, I think he's not, I think he's more playful than we think. Yeah, did you guys watch Poor Thing? Yes. A, what a fucking movie. Back to our girl, Emma Stone.

Oh, perfect. The revelation. And then Ruffalo is just mind blowing. I have a podcast. We just did an episode on Poor Things. What was your takeaway? Well, so I have two girls I do it with. We all work in film and we talk about movies.

What's the name of it? Shout it out. Frank Film Club. Frank Film Club. With Miss Williams. Yes. Naturally. With Mark Ruffalo. So the girls absolutely loved,

loved, loved, loved his performance. And it's not that I didn't love it. I just felt like he felt uncomfortable playing that. And he did. He spoke out a lot about how sort of uncomfortable he was doing it because of the Misogyny or because of the accent the accent just purely the accent the character Sometimes I think movies are ruined because you're just looking at the actor behind

Trying to be like is this making you feel uncomfortable The fact that you even know he's American doing this a little bit because it could just be an English blow doing a buffoonish accent Exactly, but the girls they love love loved it But I just felt really uncomfortable for him and then he spoke out about being uncomfortable The point of all this is that I may have shot myself in the foot with Mark ever been This is ideal because you're probably the only right woman in the country Yeah, I'm actually just saying it to be hard to guess. Unobtainable.

Limited edition. Oh, we love it. I found that movie to be insanely profound. And again, I think it's part of me being an older guy. Right, cause you were just like, how can a woman have so much agency? Sorry, sorry. Obviously that is not my disposition,

but I thought it was among the most feminist movies I've ever seen in my life. Okay, cool. And I think it nailed on the head this thing that no one's really done yet in a movie. And I think we saw it, I hate to keep bringing it up, but if you've seen the Anthony Bourdain documentary, it was very present in there.

I think there's this terrible trope that is real where older men fall in love with younger women and they're attracted to their effervescence and their gait for life and whatever, their looseness and playfulness. And then the second they have it, they're so threatened by it. And they have to absolutely snuff it out

because they're so scared they can't keep it. And I don't know that I've ever seen that done as well as it was done in this movie. I see that all around, especially in this town. I see a lot of older dudes that tried to capture a butterfly in their fucking net, and then it drives them mad. Yeah. We're hoping for that with you.

Well, that's what's gonna, I am. You might ruin Sam Rockwell. I'm the butterfly. You imagine Momakane losing his shit over you. I'd love to watch that, just him devolve. It's interesting hearing that, because we're three girls and we talk about the movie and we just constantly speaking about her perspective, It's interesting hearing that because we're three girls and we talk about the movie and we just constantly speaking

about her perspective, but I love hearing that take because like we did not bring that up at all. And that's it, but we just love that the entire time she has full control and it's just this suggestion that the guy feels like he's kind of trapped this. But the whole time she is doing exactly what she wants, it just so happens that for a couple of pages of the movie, it seems to align with what he wants too.

And it's quite amazing. Willems character has great fear of her and even more Rami's character. They have such great fear of her joining this Lothario. And as an audience member, you have the fear. You're like, she's a child. This guy clearly has bad intentions. And then yes, quickly you realize like,

oh no, no, this gal will never be dominated by anybody, which is really incredible. But I think all of us succumbed to that immediate thought of like, oh no. Yeah, no. Young innocent girl, older man. I think probably 90% of the problems in the world derive from men's insecurity that they're not pleasing a woman.

I think if you chase down all the wars, all the building businesses, all the building bridges, all of it is about the fear that their dicks are too small, all these things just burbling under all of male culture. And I think that that was very on display in this movie as well. Wow. Yeah. Well, they're not, so. The war's coming. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Maisie, this has been really fun.

I love hearing your above 50 list. This could be maybe a runner we do. Yeah, we could keep... Yeah. Let's think about it. Why don't you text us when there's more people? Yes. Okay. There we go.

Would you feel better about it if I also had the young male actors say what old gales they would date? I don't even like the term old gals. Well, I'm saying old men. That's different. The way we look at older women in this country versus older men is so different. It's not comparable. It's a bad compliment.

Yeah. You're right. Also, I feel like we would be picking actors over 50 and we'd be picking actresses that are like barely 35. Exactly. It feels like there's a lot of damage control that comes with this segment. I'm actually also wearing it in my head currently.

No, you're safe. I don't live here. It's our fault. Stax is fault. Monica's right. Because, yes, silently, it's different. It's just different. It's how it is.

I'm in a day of 22 year old man. And I'm gonna balance this all out. Now is that a segment you'd rather have if we had older female actors in and we have some young bucks they wanna settle off with? I think our segments are doing, I think we're fine. We're fine, we don't need to add any more segments. Okay, green light.

All right, this has been so much fun. I want everyone to watch the new look. Monica's gonna absolutely explode. Wait, I'm gonna learn so much and enjoy it. I hope you love it. It's clearly a very high budget well-made show too. I mean, we're in fucking Paris in 1944. Okay, the new look, Apple Plus, Maisie, so much fun.

Come back. Yes, please come back. I will. I would love to. Okay, great. Yeah, when I get like cast in something again, there's a real reason. If not, I'll just come to chat. Yeah, we like people just coming to chat.

And I'm glad I caught you in the phase of your life where you don't mind doing press. Yes. The very last thing I have to say, this was the other name thing, was Arya became one of the most popular baby names during that show. And what's funny is Sodi Khaleesi,

one of my best friends named his daughter Khaleesi. Arya got out just fine. You're still pumped. I still love Khaleesi though. I donria got out just fine. Yeah. You're still pumped. I still love Khaleesi though. I don't really care if she met Molly. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, I still like her. But it took a turn.

It did. She's the only other person from the show we've interviewed. Amelia. Yeah. Amelia. We should have Sophie on. Love to have her on. She's from our new show soon, so.

You guys are still buddies, yeah? Yeah, it's her birthday soon, so. Oh. We're going out. Ooh, going out. Hollywood. Hollywood, one o'clock. All right, Dory, this has been so much fun. Good out. Hollywood. Hollywood, wine o'clock. All right.

Dory, this has been so much fun. Good luck with everything. Good luck with the new look. Tell me some more. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Stay tuned for the facts check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

Oh, what do we got here? Oh, I got a hunch. I know what it is. Can you guess it yourself? Minutri Mouse with maximum brain power. Is it our, oh, it's a Best Boy plaque? I think it's the Best Boy award. It's the Best Boy award.

Let's see it, unveil it. Uh, drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr represents Best Boy Award. Awarded to Jimmy Kimmel for being the best boy in the world. Oh my God, I love it. I don't even want to do that to him. Do we have multiples? No, just a lot. We take a picture and send it to him. No, he's got to receive it. Yeah, we can't keep the Best Boy Award.

I want to keep it. He earned it. I mean, we can order a second. They kept them molding for me. Yeah, imagine though, some expensive parts of the first one. Yeah, yeah. Was it 3D printed? No, I can order a second. They kept the molding for me. Yeah, imagine though, some expensive parts of the first one. Yeah, yeah. Was it 3D printed?

No, I had to give them pictures. That's the picture we took out there. And then I found some other angles so they could get everything shaped right. Wow. Well, we have to take a picture of the poster. Yeah, for sure. And I might have to drive over there or something.

Wow, great job, bro. Which is great, he won't even know. He doesn't know what it is. No, he has no clue that he's already been the best boy for months. And a very busy week for him, right? Is that, are the Oscars? Yeah, Sunday.

Sunday. So the Oscars were yesterday. Right, yeah. Do you think I should go on stage at the Oscars and present it to him? That'd be a great publicity stunt for armchair expert. Oh, right. All right, expert.

It came out weird. Armchair expert. Oh my God. Yeah, we need more visibility. Uh-huh, we got to up our profile. Yeah. What are impressions? We need impressions and repos and...

Engagement. Oh, engagement, that's the word I was looking for. Wow, Rob, this is really incredible. You see the beard? And it looks so good. The detail of the beard. Yeah, this is a rob. This is really incredible. You see the beard? I mean, it looks so good. The detail of the beard. Yeah, they did a great job with it. Oh my Lord.

Do you want to get a shout out to the company? Christian and Natalie at Just Us Monuments. Just Us Monuments. Cool. Fuck, this is gorgeous. I mean, I agree with you. It kills me to give this away. I know.

Because you know what we should have is we should have like a little, there's no room in here to do it, but like a hang up, put a little shelf up, and then have like a Mount Rushmore of vascos. Yes, can we do that? Yeah, let's do that. We got, we need some space, but we'll figure. Oh, we can put something there.

We can put a little shelf above that. I imagine if we go long enough, entering this room will be impossible for the guests. It really looks more and more like dagginale's on the sorcerer shop. Yeah, it does. Right, with all the, or my favorite kind of old school hardware stores where the

all vertical space is taken out. Yeah, the one right now in Western is incredible that way. Every square inch of the store has got merch on it. We can do a floating shelf on this above the picture of the planes. Oh, sure. And then that'll be perfect. That would be perfect, yeah.

Just below the about to collapse crawl space. Yeah. At a country. Yeah. Well, who was it that just walked in there like, boy, this has really become a dawn since my first. Bateman. Yeah. Who couldn't help but notice the strides that were made.

Well, you were saying you saw one of like a very, very, very old picture from like one of the first episodes where you're in the rolling chair. I'm in the Rob's rolling chair. And I'm two feet from the gas. Yeah. Oh my God. So weird. So awkward. It looks like an empty room at that point too.

It's just that desk and nothing else. it's so awkward. It looks like an empty room at that point too. It's just that desk and nothing else. It's so funny. It's really, it's cool. You know what it reminds me of? It's like, you know, over the course of a school year, your locker would get more and more shit in it, and then it almost pains you to tear it all down. This is like a locker that we just never have to turn in.

It just keeps accumulating. You're right, posters and junk. Debris. Yeah, I never had really the luxury of the locker experience. Why? Because our high school was so big that my locker was, I never had time to go to it. But you had a locker.

Yeah, but you had to like cross campus, you had like seven minutes and it was stressful. Take the tram from the airport. Basically, sometimes your locker, you know, it's often in a building you're not in and you can't go that way and then turn, it didn't make any sense. So I just carried all my books.

Everything you needed. Your go bag as they call it in the CIA. How many students? It split into two schools, but when we started, my class had 1,000 students. Your class? So the school had 4,000 students? At the beginning, yeah.

And then, yeah, a new school opened and half of the people went. Okay, so when you graduated, there were 2,000 students? Probably, yeah. That's outrageous. I think we were 2,000 students? Probably, yeah. That's outrageous. I think we were 1,200 all in. I think it was about 400 a grade. Although after I left,

and even when you were in Michigan with me, I drove you past there. And it's turned into a Amazon distribution center. It's so, and it's three times the size. They built over it and on it so much that when I look at it, I'm like, I don't even really know where you used to enter. Yeah. They just swallowed it up

like those cells that Bill was telling us about. Sus, ss, ss, ss, ss. What stories, so now that you're out and about, what stories do you find that you are telling now? Oh, I've told the rip in the time space continuum, the little girl. Oh, hi, Dax. Yeah, I've told about her.

I've talked about her a fair amount. Cause I had a dinner with Charlie and Eric. So that got to be a fun version. You know, you cater to your audience. And there was so much to select from over the seven days. So I noticed that that dinner, of course it's all comedy. I'm going straight comedy. And then I was talking to Aaron this morning on FaceTime.

And of course for Aaron, I knew the thing he'd relate most to, because we're from the same dirt road, is how much you and I did not, we were so scared. We weren't doing what we were supposed to be doing. We didn't know what value we were adding to anybody. And we just kept thinking like, why on earth did they let us come here?

So Aaron and I were laughing so hard about the notion that like the participants at each breakfast plus you and me. Yeah, I know. I talked about, I have told some people about that. And I forgot a piece that when we were at that fancy breakfast and totally didn't belong and were waiting to be, I feared introduced, I took the wrong person's napkin.

Oh, right. But it was the cute young billionaire. To me, it felt like a meat cute. Well, it was. It was the guy who owned the equivalent of Instacart and Postmates and Uber Eats. Like Total Market Dominance, he's a Titan. Yes.

But he was also young and in a sweatshirt. Yeah, he was like very stereotypical billionaire, like doesn't, because we were told to wear business formal. Yes, and we complied. We did, and he didn't, but he didn't have to, I guess. But it was his napkin you took. Yeah. So it was such a meet cute.

They put the two youngest people next to each other at the table, and then you stole his napkin. On accident. Do you think this was a misdemean cute? Maybe. He was cute. Yeah, he was.

Yeah. He exuded a confidence one has when they build something monumental. He did and he was being humble. Like he was explaining his thing to Bill and then everyone kept chiming in to like really tell him the truth about it. Which is like it's huge.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I did like that. But yeah, I took his napkin on accident because I grabbed from the wrong side. And then he had to like point to the other napkin. It was so embarrassing. Oh, but also cute. It's like, it's just so pretty woman.

We're like, you don't know what you're doing and you're using the wrong four. You're exposing your low station in life. Exactly. Yeah. Anyway, we. Exactly. Yeah. Anywho, we got distracted. Yeah. Best Boy Award.

Best Boy, what else? So you had dinner, any gossip from dinner? Of course, Eric and I argued for a while about the sim. Oh. Cause I said the point Bill made. Did I say it on the last fact check? So we had the audacity to ask Bill if he thought it was possible that we could be in a sim.

Right. And he said, there is so much data in the universe that there is no computer that would ever fit on a planet that could handle all the data that exists in the universe to be recreating it. And that the only way there would be a simulation is if this universe was a simulation from a much bigger universe somewhere else. Yeah, which makes sense.

Yeah, but Erica was really hung up on the notion that it could be tricking you and it doesn't really know all the data of the universe. And then when we point our telescope somewhere and start getting information, it's just kind of tricking us. And I was like, but that wouldn't hold up. It couldn't like do a random generated, none of it would logically flow.

We couldn't base any physics formulas. But can they wipe our memories and stuff? We don't know their powers. We don't know that we weren't born five minutes ago. And we don't know if they like can. And we think yesterday existed. Do something with our eyes and then we think we see something and we don't.

But we are in an observable reality and we are measuring all kinds of data from the reality and it's consistent. It's not like you measure that thing and it says it's six meters and then you measure the thing next to it and it says it's 26 meters and they're the same height. Like it's hugely consistent.

So they would have had to build the entire universe. I just think if they make a mistake, they can probably clean our memory, like they do in Harry Potter. Or Men in Black, my favorite franchise. Sure. Well, you already said Diagon Alley. I did. That was for you.

It's conceivable too, if we have microscopic elements that our universe is microscopic for another place. Right. That's what he's saying, is that it would have to be in a different universe, 10 exercise of ours to have a planet big enough that could house a thing big enough that could hold all the data and process it and be recreating it in a consistent logical way.

Yeah. But Eric, it's really funny, because when you just want to believe in something, it's very that Jonathan height thing where it's like, if your gut tells you something, all your logic really bears no influence on it. Confirmation bias. Yeah. I get it.

Like Eric likes the idea that it could be. So it doesn't really matter if someone 40 times smarter than us says why it couldn't be. Well, he's saying in theory, if there is a universe bigger, like it could, he's just saying that. It would require a different universe. Exactly. But we wouldn't know about that.

But Eric's fight was that this universe could create it. And I was like, if he says it can't, he knows everything about computing power. I think we have to defer to him on that point that it couldn't exist within this universe. Yeah, I mean. Now you're feeling a little bit too, cause you like the sim.

No, I just, I think it's okay to poke holes. Oh. Which Eric did. I think it is too. What I'm pointing out is that he would acknowledge that this person who says it's not possible in this universe is way smarter than him. And so he would never say like, Bill said this about AI, but I got a hunch AI doesn't work that way.

He would absolutely defer to Bill about that. Well, sure, yeah. But because he has an emotional connection with this idea about the Sim, he is able to disregard Bill's opinion and that's a very interesting human aspect. Well, it is, but I think it's because this is opinion. This isn't fact.

Like if he's asking about AI, there's facts. Like he's gonna take all Bill's facts and knowledge, but the SIM is unknowable. We don't know, no one knows. But I would argue it's a fact what Bill's saying about the size of the computer that would be required to hold all of the data that exists in the full universe.

I think that's not his opinions. He knows about computing and the... Yeah, for sure. But Eric's point is that we're being tricked so there's no way to know if we know that. Like it's so many layers. I could see... Like I would totally accept Eric going,

okay, great, then it's, yeah, it's a much bigger universe that has a planet on it that's the size of our universe that does have a computer that's that big and can hold all of it. But he didn't shift to that. Right. And so that's what I'm pointing out, which is very fascinating about humans, myself included.

You have an emotional feeling about something and you're able to even disregard someone who clearly has a much better guess than you do. Right. Yeah, we all do that I guess. Yeah, we're all guilty of it. I had something to tell you, some news. Hot news?

I thought maybe. What did you do last night? Let me help you jog your memory. Let's see, I had lunch with Kelly. So you hung out with your friend too yesterday. Yeah, I had a meeting for a couple hours and I was on the side of town that Uncle Grandpa lives on. My best friend, Tom Hansen.

Friend of the pod? Yes. It was great. We had a full three hours sitting in the kitchen just talking. Nice. And it was just beautiful. I cherished it. Great.

And, oh, and then I got home and the whole family started Love on the Spectrum. Oh, yeah. And as promised, it is the cutest show imaginable. It's so heartwarming. Yeah. Have you tried it yet? No. Yes's so heartwarming. Yeah. Have you tried it yet? No.

Yes, it's infectious. Good. Yeah. Well, this is for Maisie. Maisie. Yes. I got excited again listening to it because of all the fashion. Oh yeah, have you started the show?

Not yet. It's out now. Yes, it's out. I have to watch it. Oh, you know what Uncle Grandpa told me yesterday? What? He watched the movie Iron Claw that Jeremy Ellen White... And Zach I'm Ron. Yes. Have you seen it? No, I've just seen the previews.

Oh, he said it's really good. Really? Yeah. And I guess they're monsterly in it. Yeah, they look huge. Everyone's a monster because we got Roadhouse coming out. Have you been seen any of the previews for that? I saw on Jake's Instagram, yeah. And his physique is?

He's in shape. It's banging. I don't think, I mean, you can't do Roadhouse and not be, right? That's like the whole thing. Swayze was the first. Swayze's the first one. You had Arnold and you had Sly,

but they were like huge. Right. Swayze was the first of the Marvel body. Or like, you would believe he's still a gym, and in fact, he had been a gymnast. Patrick Swayze. Right. Swayze was the first of the Marvel body. Or like you would believe he's still a gym, and in fact he had been a gymnast, Patrick Swayze, and a football player. Yeah, great combo. He was a metropolitan man.

Wow. Yeah. Did you ever watch that show on Netflix, like your favorite movies, how they were made or something? No. And they did Dirty Dancing? Oh, such a good movie. And you know, they legendarily hated each other, which is really for, yes, yes, and they get dirty dancing. Oh, such a good movie. And you know, they, they legendarily hated each other,

which is really, yes, yes. And they get into that. Whoa. And they talk about that big scene where he had to run and jump off the stage and like be like a swan in the air. And he had the terrible leg injury from football, like multiple breaks and surgeries.

CTE. And he, mm. I mean, It is lagged. It's, hmm, it is like, it's CTE, it is like. Okay, what would that be? LTE or something,

leg trauma, that was something. And he just jumped over and over. And most, and they have all the footage. And most of the times he landed, he just collapsed. Ah.

Yeah. And he just kept going. Cause he's a gymnast. And gymnasts don't give a fuck. They don't quit. Go right through the pain. There was a super interesting, I know I think I've bring this don't go, they don't quit. go right through the pain. There was a super interesting, I know I think I've bring this up before,

but I don't know, I urge people to read it. I know why, because Ricky, our good friend, Ricky Glassman, he's had a bunch of different weird injuries and it sidelines him from exercising a lot. And then he gets depressed and he was sharing all this with me. And I was like, you really should check out, Lane Norton's got a lot of work on pain. And he just had a recent post,

if you go to at BioLane, and it has immense data on pain, and it's also counterintuitive. You just really wouldn't believe. What is it? How mental it is. It's a really, really mental thing. If you look at the broad data, if you compare people with tissue damage

and you compare people with pain, there's not much correlation. So there's a lot of people with compare people with tissue damage and you compare people with pain, there's not much correlation. So there's a lot of people with pain and no tissue damage, and there's a lot of people with tissue damage with no pain. So it's just a very fascinating field. I think there's a couple X percent that we should have one on. Yeah, I'd like to.

Because can't a lot of that have to do with just like pain receptors and how like maybe that differs a lot between people? Yes, but here's what I tried to explain to Lincoln. I think is a way people could relate to how subjective pain is. If you're on the playground playing and you wanna go tackle somebody,

you've decided like, I wanna bring them down and you run at them and you tackle them. And it doesn't hurt you. Now, if you're standing still and you're not expecting it and someone tackles you, the exact same amount of trauma and impact and concussion, all that stuff, it kills or you fall down the steps that kills, but when they're on the bar

and they wanna be spinning and they fall, they jump right back up cause they wanna do it. It's like, the mindset is like, yes, I'm gonna ignore this thing in pursuit of this other thing versus I expect comfort and now I have this trauma. These are like pretty much relatively the same level of trauma. That's interesting.

But because you chose to do one and didn't choose to do another, the response is light years different. It's very visible when you have kids. You witness it all the time. Like they'll be running and you're not looking at them and they hit the deck, but they wanted to be running and they just get up and they,

versus they're sitting there and their sister kicks them and then same part of the knee that they just fell on it and all of a sudden it's like, you know. That feels more like anger. When anger is involved, there's an emotional pain added. Yeah. Which then causes that to be very heightened. But I also think there's like, it's almost the Buddhist thing where it's like,

if there's an expectation of calm and pleasure. Yeah. That is interrupted with pain. Yeah. Versus there's an expectation of pain, there is no pain. Right, yeah, that's true. I wonder if also something physiological happens, like if you're on, I'm thinking about like the monkey bar,

like if you're learning how to do like some gymnastics or something, you know, you're gonna fall. So I wonder if your body is also, your muscles are working in a specific way. I mean, your brain controls all of that, right? So I'm sure. Your brain is entirely deciding what signals it's gonna send.

Yeah. The example I know very intimately, but you won't like is that like the times in my life where I was afraid someone's gonna beat me up. And I focused on the fact that I'm gonna get hurt by this person. And when they were hurting me, it hurt. Versus when I got in fights where it's like,

I just wanted to hurt that person. I was not thinking about anything about me. I was singularly focused on, I'm going to hurt that person. In those fights, I got hit just as much. You don't feel them at all. Like when you choose to be in a fight and you want to go after that person and hurt them, you don't feel any of the shit that happens to you.

If you get your nose broken like four hours later, it'll hurt, but your brain's in a complete, it's almost like your brain's like, it's in a zone that decommissions the other side. Whereas like, oh no, they're coming, they're gonna hurt me. You're already focused on the part that's gonna be painful. Yeah, I mean, it's like how moms lift cars up off of people.

When you're in certain modes, that you can handle things and do things that you can't normally do. Right. Yeah, it's interesting. So I think it's way more subjective than we wanna. Yeah. But the shit that's driving people nuts, but it's just the mass data, you can't ignore it.

Stretching does not reduce injury. Form doesn't produce injury. All these things that are like tenants of exercise. How can form not? Cause like if you're holding your back in a certain way. Yeah, you should read it. So they've done these enormous studies on everyone's forms and you're just as likely to hurt yourself

with great form as you are with bad form, which no one wants to hear. That's the thing that's pissing people the most off in the comments, but it's just straight data. It's not anyone's opinion. It's like, here are the 10,000 people that were studied. Here are the results of it.

The only thing that can reduce injury, quantifiably, that the data proves is warm-ups help. So if you start doing a light version of the exercise you're gonna do to get your heart rate up and get your blood flowing and get your body moving, but stretching won't reduce your risk. It's really fun to see something so inflammatory. It's kinda like the Malcolm Gladwell stuff.

But I guess, so these are all studies, they're like recent studies. Yeah. Because there's statistics, there's data that made people say it to begin with. So why is that data getting thrown out? I don't know if there was data. I think there's a lot of intuitive things

that make sense to people. Like of course, good form. Anatomically, your body moves this way. Of course, if you have your back rolled over during squats, that's gonna put more pressure on your neck. You know, like I think a lot of stuff's intuitive. I don't know that they studied it, but regardless, these are all metadata.

So it's like all of the studies that have been done on this topic, what do we see emerge from all of them? He is mostly dealing with meta analysis of data. Okay, amazing. How old is Ben Mendelsohn who is on her show? He's 54. We were saying he's also worked since he was a kid.

He's my sweet brother's age. She feels like she doesn't know anything when she's around him. 54 her. When I hear 54, I go, that's old. And then I go, oh, my brother's 54 now. And then it seems young. Yeah, of course.

I know. I bet 49 has been impacted for you by knowing me. For sure. I mean, you're like. I'm 49. When you are 50, I'm saying that will, I mean, I already have that with Eric. Like he's in his fifties.

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Well, yes, yes. Yeah. Well, in my meeting yesterday, I wore my Black Chuck Taylor Converse in my Levi's cuffed in a black shirt, the outfit I'm wearing currently. But black? This is the same outfit.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Yeah, I put it on in the afternoon yesterday and I'm still wearing it today. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, this is the exact outfit I wore in eighth grade every day. And then I'm like, I'm still trying to be a little boy, I think.

And does it look preposterous yet? Well, you know my theory about fashion a little bit. Oh, ding, ding, ding, fashion. Oh, yeah, yeah. I think we, like the moment we have like our first burst of confidence. You get stuck there. Yeah, you get stuck.

And then you're like recreating that fashion style for the rest of your life. So what is yours? So like I am, I'm drawn to a lot of feminine touches, like ruffles or like a pretty sleeve or like pink and things like that. I don't always go for it cause I counteract it cause I don't wanna walk around like a little girl. But I'm always drawn to it because I counteract it because I don't want to walk around like a little girl. But I'm always drawn to that and I always like it

and I think that's why. So what age for you was everything working? Oh four. Pfft. So it's not the moment you were feeling yourself. But like maybe. I bet you were feeling yourself before. I know.

I look at that little girl and she definitely seems pretty damn confident. And she looked cute. Like when I look at pictures, my mom dressed me cute. Ah, she had a little Barbie doll. She had a little doll. And it was cute. And then it took a turn,

because then she just started buying me stuff from goodies, which wasn't as cute. Okay. So I'm not trying to recreate that moment ever really. Clearly your mother was doing what all parents do, which is they were giving their child what they wanted. So my reverse engineering hunch is that your mother was in Savannah with these Indian parents.

And they probably weren't dressing her like a baby doll. Well, my grandma made all their clothes. Ooh, yeah. But she was good. I'm sure she was. She was good. She made me some dresses that were really cute. She ran an atelier in her.

Kind of. And we would go to the store, the fabric store, and we'd pick out like the fabric for my dress. But I think it's safe to assume she did for you what she wanted for herself. Yeah, I think most parents do that. But she didn't do that with goodies. I think they just got, they're just frugal.

Yeah, maybe they were like, oh, these clothes last six months. This little bitch is growing like a weed. Even though I wasn't, I stayed small. Yeah, you're virtually, you probably fit in that same outfit that's in that photo right there. That photo realistic painting.

Yeah. So for you, you're recreating the outfit when you were young. Which is interesting because really I'm recreating Beckham and in doing so I realized I'm really recreating myself from seventh grade. Yeah. I remember getting my first pair of Chuck Taylor's. It's like what skaters wore.

Sure. Before Vans was an option. I remember. And this is 85, like the skate boys started wearing these. And my brother was like, my brother got them, so I got them. And then you had to roll up your guest jeans so you could see your All Stars. These were the first pair of shoes. I had had a pair of Nike or two before that.

These were the first pair of shoes that I was like, yeah, found my personality. Like these are in keeping with who I am. Cause they weren't popular in the 80s at all. They were a skater shoe even. When you were in high school. Yeah, we were a very skater. I should go on my bangs out again oh my god

It's red locks. Oh, man favorite hairdo ever Yeah, probably not I might do it Don't want to have a show anymore You know they didn't let me have a show because I nodded my hair You know, they didn't let me have a show because I nodded my hair. Well, knowing that right now, like it would be a statement doing it now.

And it would be a statement that's like, why is it worth? Why is it worth it? Well, people would make it a statement. What is a statement? It would be a statement. No, a statement is you decide to make a statement. So I wouldn't be making a statement. Like I reject the notion of cultural appropriation

and I'm gonna prove it and stand up for this, for my right to do this. That's how it would be. It'd be like, oh, I'm gonna get my favorite hairstyle I ever had again. Now, other people would glean from that, but that's what I was doing. But I actually wouldn't be making a statement.

But if anyone is flying a Confederate flag right now, they might be doing it because they love fishing, but they're also, they're deciding that that is more important to them than what it flags to a bunch of people and it bums a bunch of people out. They're deciding their love of fishing is more important and that is a statement.

But do you think those are equivalent hairdos in the Confederate flag? I think having dreadlocks right now in 2024 is a white person is a no-go. It's been made clear. So to make that choice is making a very specific choice. It's not like having two braids down your hair that kind of looks a little indigenous.

Dreadlocks is so specific. It's not like, oh, it looks a little kind of appropriationy, but I'm not sure, but it's not like middle groundy. But I guess what you're saying is there is consensus that the Confederate flag, which it was the actual symbol to revolt against the North over slavery. So it's explicitly in support of slavery, the flag. There's no interpretation.

Well, for some people, they interpret it differently. But yeah. Well, that's just because maybe they don't know. No, I mean, I know people in the South who wanna fly it. They know the stuff and they wanna fly it because of their own culture. But there are kids that have been raised in a house that said that was a flag that represented states' rights.

And then their parents didn't go on to say what was the state right that everyone was fighting over. So there are kids that currently think that was a state's rights revolution. There are. But hairdo, I don't think is equivalent to the Confederate flag personally. And I don't think black people think it's equivalent.

I think some left white people think it is, but I don't really think there's black people. I think the Confederate flag and rage against the machine's lead singer, those are equivalent. It's still, it comes from black people, let me touch your hair, what's happening with your hair was a thing. It's not separate from race.

Like it is connected and it's connected to the history. But you're saying that some ethnicities have a singular right over a hairstyle and others can't have that hairstyle. I'm not saying can't, but I'm saying if you choose to, in the place we're at, you're making a decision despite a lot of people thinking that I mean, it's like-

To say a whole group of people can't have a hairstyle is an interesting proposition. A whole group of people can't say a word and I 100% believe that. Well, that word is a racial pejorative. It's hateful. But- You're wearing your hair in a certain way is not hateful.

The hairstyle is connected to a racist history. To an identity of black people. Yes. Yeah, 100%. It is most identified with specifically Bob Marley in Rosta culture. It was an identifying factor that was used as a negative. This group of people that's below us has hair like this

and does this and that hair is weird and I don't understand it, can I touch it? Well, hold on, someone who's just making their hair dreadlocked is not saying black people have weird hair and I wanna touch it. That's in the history though, that's part of it, the hair is a huge part of the history. That hairstyle certainly originated

in the black community, period, agree, absolutely agree. 100%, they originated that hairstyle. But the notion that they originated a hairstyle and that no one going forward in history can have that same hairstyle is A pretty extreme and interesting Proposition that there are hairstyles people can and cannot have there's no Hate behind that all the examples you're giving like the n-word in the Confederate flag Those are all symbols of hate Having a hairstyle that someone else invented is not a symbol of hate in any way.

I don't think that you could possibly make that argument. But it's still taking on a- It's taking some of their culture they invented. That they invented despite white people. Right, so- Like they did it in defiance, and then now you're deciding because it's convenient, not you, you as like white people,

it's convenient for, no, now I like it, I'm gonna have it. Well, no, because that assumed the person didn't like it. What you just said. You're making it so specific, you have to make it wrong. But I don't think culturally people didn't like dreadlocks. I don't think white supremacists had an opinion about dreadlocks. Yes, of course. They had an had an opinion about dreadlocks. Yes, of course. They had a opinion about black people for sure.

Yes, and that's connected. And so that's inferior. The question is, is if the black community invents something, does all of their inventions have to stay within their community or can they be used by other communities? That's the question. That's the real question.

Well, that's a question coming out of this. They invented hip-hop. They invented jazz. They invented hip hop, they invented jazz, they invented, white people invented the piano and the cello and the violin, and of course everyone can use the violin and the piano. Yeah, people who weren't marginalized is a different thing. But because the marginalized group invented something,

the premises no one else should use that invention. It's not, now we're gonna, we're talking very specifically about you bringing Dreadlocks back. Yes, so Dreadlocks is exactly this. So they invented a hairstyle. And so because they invented it, white people should never have it.

That's what the statement that's being made. White people who felt superior. Well, but that's not anyone right now. But that's where the history matters. It matters to all of this. For all generations going forward. So because one person hated dreadlocks. One person, all the whole culture is slavery.

Because 100% of white people hated dreadlocks in 1840. In 2024, when I don't even know 70% of white people don't hate black people at all, white people shouldn't use a hairstyle they invented. Maybe when there's absolutely zero systemic racism, everyone can have all the same stuff. But right now we're not there. Okay, so black people should have singular ownership

over the culture they create. I think it's case by case, it depends. Well, hip-hop's fine, right? We're fine with white people doing hip-hop. Yeah, I mean, yeah. And that was a villainized- Ish, ish, to be honest, I'm like, yes, and I think it depends. I don't think you can tell any kid on Planet Earth

if they want to rap, they can't rap, because someone else has a different- I'm not telling you can't. I'm just, we're talking about it. Yeah, and I'm saying, I'm not saying can't. You're making it so black and white. Well, it's very black and white if you say white people can't have dreadlocks.

I'm not saying can't. You can do whatever you want. My point is, whatever you do, if you decide to do that, there'll be consequences. It's saying something. And what you can say that it's not, but that's living in, not in reality and that not in this current time in this culture. And it's, and I don't care what anyone does, but if I see a white person with dreadlocks, I might think, Oh, they love that hairstyle.

And I also think they're, they shouldn't. They just know they've decided to prioritize them liking that hairstyle over a history that is not about them. Right. So in your scenario, I think you're saying that the white person has the dreadlocks and that potentially a black person would see that and feel offended or angry, and that they prioritize their love for the hairstyle

over having made the black person feel angry or offended. Or just like, yeah. Because if it's offending a white college student, tough shit. Oh yeah, I don't care about that. And so I guess where you and I, I think we're getting down to where we differ. I don't really think black people would see

a white guy with dreadlocks and feel. But we're not blacks, so we don't know. I'm telling you what I think. I getting down to where we differ. I don't really think black people would see a white guy with dreadlocks in feel. But we're not black, so we don't know. I'm telling you what I think. I know, but, okay. I'm not allowed to think that. But we don't know, what's the point? Well, I could start calling some black people and say like you saw a guy with dreadlocks,

would you be upset? I could start, I could do that, but it's my opinion with the black friends I have that I can't imagine they'd get upset or offended or think they were under attack if they saw someone, a white guy with dreadlocks. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think they'd get upset or offended or think they were under attack if they saw someone a white guy with redlocks. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think they're that fragile. I don't think it's fragile to Be offended by a hairdo. Yeah when it's connected to a whole bunch of other stuff

That's extrapolating it in such a specific way to just call it a hairdo hair in the black community is not It's not like Indian hair. It's very specific and it has been used against them a lot. And there's not products for them. And there's a lot there. It's not just as simple as like, I like the way this looks. So I think people can do it if they wanna do it, but I'm gonna see it and think they made a choice.

And I'm not gonna say like, you're they wanna do it, but I'm gonna see it and think they made a choice. And I'm not gonna say like you're bad because of it, but I'm gonna notice it just like if you wear a headdress, I'm gonna notice it too. I'm gonna be like, huh. I think it's a zone that the far left went too far. And I think it's kind of, I think it's one of the silly ones. I think there's really legitimate ones.

And I think that's a silly one. Okay. one of the silly ones. I think there's really legitimate ones. And I think that's a silly one. Okay. Okay. So who said, don't be humble, you're not that great. It was a female prime minister of Israel, Golda, mayor, M-E-I-R.

M-E-I-R. She was the fourth prime minister of Israel from 69 to 74. Do you like that quote? I love it. Yeah, it's a good one. It's a very good one. How old was Dior when he died?

He was quite young. Oh, this is a ding, ding, ding. Last night, Lincoln was telling me that they have to, they're doing a section on famous women in history. And she got assigned some Olympian. And then a classmate got Coco Chanel. Oh. And she swapped, she horse traded. Really? Oh, that is a ding, ding, ding.

So now she has Coco Chanel. Oh, cool. She's like, do you know her name was not even Coco Chanel? And she like, you know, she had some research on it. Okay, he was 52, Dior, when he died. Yeah, very well. Especially when we just talked about the fact that I'm 50-ish. Yeah. And the actor, he would have, Dior, when he died. Yeah, very well. Especially when you just talked about the fact

that I'm 50-ish. Yeah, and not close. In the actor, he would have been dead two years ago. Oh, Ben Mendelssohn. She can borrow my purse for a presentation. For the presentation. Yeah, if she wants. Okay, talk about making a statement

and being socially aware. So I would be nervous about her showing up with a Chanel. Oh, bag. Yeah, I think it's already, she's already got to really mind her P's and Q's about being pretty privileged. I see. Yeah, so I would probably advise her against that.

Okay. Oh, this is a funny conundrum. Okay. So we're on the way to school today and her birthday's approaching. And I said, what do you want for your birthday love? If is there anything you have been wanting? And she said, just I guess some Taylor Swift stuff.

She goes, but I don't really want anything. I'd rather maybe have an experience if you want to like give me an experience. It's great. Which already I love. Yes. It experience if you want to like give me an experience great, which already I love yes me 42 years to learn that experiences are better than objects. Yeah, I'm still not even there. I still look at cars I love items. Yeah, but but I'm aspiring to want to just ask for an experience for birthday at that age I liked that me too and then just last night we were laying in bed and she said, do you know that Taylor's concert

is going all the way through 2024 in Europe? And I was like, ooh, I wonder how much it'll make. So then we looked it up. And then so it's projected to make a billion. So coupled with last year, so that tour will have made $2 billion, which is incredible. Incredible.

Like it's conceivable this woman could amass like $30 billion. It'll be interesting to see if they hate that billionaire. But that's a side. Yeah, we've talked about it a little bit on Sankt. Oh, do you? Yeah, like what's the tipping point? But anyways, so she says this on the ride to school and then of course I was like,

could I find four days off, get tickets in another country and gift her that experience for her birthday. Well Anna and I literally just talked about this last night. We were looking at your schedule. We were trying to figure out because we really want to go to London to see it. Ah, London. But it doesn't match up with your dates. But if you guys are going to go, then that would be great for us. or dates, but if you guys are gonna go, then that would be great for us.

Okay, so I'm like, so now the big quandary starts. Mind you, I don't say any of this out loud, thank God. But I'm like, is that too much? Should a kid get a trip to Europe to see Taylor Swift? Like what impact does that have on her? Shouldn't there still be things she wants to do? I don't wanna give her everything before she's an adult. Fucking God forbid she tells someone at school

she flew to fucking Cologne, Germany to see Taylor Swift. I would hate that kid. Every kid would hate the kid. It would have to be, you'd have to make it. Like if we went to London, then it's like, we're there for like some days. We went for work. We could go for work and then make it all worth it.

That would be not a bad idea. But also then it's like a family trip and then that happens to be a day. Yes, yes, yes. But if you're going, if you're going just. Well, I was being realistic about my schedule and her school schedule, which is like the odds of me taking a week off when I already have a bunch of shit

already on the calendars, it seems very unlikely. So it seems more like we would fly directly to a place, be there for two days, see Taylor. So by the way, it just me and her. Mom already went with her in LA. So I would wanna go and not make a big thing out of it. But again, I sincerely don't know what the right call is. I'm leaning towards not, which is weird

because I could do it and it'd be really, really fun for both of us. And then what if we died in a meteor shower in two years and I was worrying about what impact this would have on her as an adult. Oh, but then you could have died because of that. Could die in root. And people would be like those people

that went down in the submarine. Exactly. They deserved it. I know. Who would spend that kind of money to go see Taylor Swift and Homburg? Yeah, I think, I don't know. I don't know what the answer is.

I don't either. Yeah, it's more like she's going on a trip with her dad. That's what I think. Like I don't need to see Taylor. I want to share that with my daughter. Right. TBD. I think we should just go to London.

Thank God she doesn't listen to the podcast. Thank God. Yeah. Anyhow, well, keep to London. Thank God she doesn't listen to the podcast. Thank God. Yeah. Anyhow, well, keep it deep. And that would be your pick. You've gone to London so much when you wanna go to a different city to see her. Well, there's all, she's also gonna be in Milan

while you guys are gone. So we've talked about that as well. Milan Rouge. Yes. I don't know, I just fucking, I love London. I love it so much. And then like maybe pop over to Paris. Would you live there?

Do you think you could live there? No, I can only live here. Oh, okay. Cause of the sunshine? I don't know why. I mean, it's currently gloomy. It is. We're expecting rain here at four o'clock.

I love other places. I love visiting, but I like living here. Yeah. It's a good place. Yeah, it is. It was funny though, because I like living here. Yeah, it's a good place. Yeah, it is. It was funny though, because we landed on Saturday, I walked to the bookstore, which I think I talked about. And this unwell person was like, I had- Hold on a second,

one of that's how it evolved, it went homeless, unhoused, and then just unwell. I don't know if he was unhoused. Okay. At all. He was unwell. He was unwell. It was hard to tell. He was definitely unwell because he was screaming at me.

And I was walking down the street and he was just like in my face screaming at me on Vermont. And it was really uncomfortable. What was he screaming? I had headphones in, so I was trying to just like look down and not make eye contact. Yes. So I don eye contact. Yes. So I don't know, but.

God knows. What if you had shit in your bathing suit? Oh, that's an Easter egg. That's an Easter egg. Yeah, anyway, we just have a lot of issues. He interacts with a lot on well folks. Yeah. It's just funny,

cause we had just come from India, right? Where there's so much poverty and there's a lot going on. But no one's on health. And there's chaos. Well, there are, but. I'm saying we didn't see. But no one was doing that to us there. That's a little bit of the point I was making.

Which is like, I don't know. I don't have pity. Oh, who's happy. And I don't have. Oh, no, I know. And I don't know that we have it better. I agree. I totally agree.

Because that's one metric you look at. It's like, yeah, there weren't a bunch of completely drugged out zombies crawling all over the sidewalk and screaming and fighting bird scooters there. We didn't see that. Well, remember, I even, I brought this up to Bill and you where, when we were in the revitalized slum, I was shocked at how there was no drug use.

Yeah, there was no apparent drug use. Yeah, and if that were here. We did ask him though, do you remember? He said drugs aren't really an issue. Yeah, and the penalties for drugs are insane-lies. Yes, but he was like, no one has that issue like the United States. Right, also the money, like the world market,

Yeah. You can only get cocaine so cheaply over to India. But it was just so interesting because if that were here and people are like in that environment, the, I mean. Yeah, but they did say they had an alcohol problem. But we, again, like I saw when I was in St. Petersburg in 1999, which I guess at that point is only eight years, nine years after the fall of the USSR,

we were driving in the morning to go see the Catherine's Palace. And there were hundreds and hundreds of men on the sidewalk at like 9 a.m. drinking out of vodka bottles. And they were bullets. It was like our drug issue. But it was just with alcohol. And there's just guys laying, leaning on every corner

of everything just pounding vodka. So obviously India's drinking problem isn't that bad. St. Petersburg was in 1999. Interesting. Yeah, love you. Love you. Love you.