Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Maria Sharapova

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

Maria Sharapova is a 5x Grand Slam-winning former professional tennis player, investor, and entrepreneur. Maria joins the Armchair Expert to discuss how her priorities changed after retiring from tennis, her experience as a child moving to the US from Russia, and where her strong work ethic came from. Maria and Dax talk about how isolating success can be, what it takes to be critical of yourself, and how they both approach conflict in their relationships. Maria explains how much pressure there is on individual athletes to perform at a high level, why she wants to be a voice for female empowerment, and her superstitions.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Rather, and I'm joined by the Duchess of Duluth. Hello there. Where you'll soon be. You'll be gracing Duluth with your royal presence. Are you watching the new Crown, by the way? Not yet. Yeah.

I need to get on it. You know what's fun is I watched that with Lincoln. Oh, so fun. Which is so good, and I'm so into the fact that at 10 she likes it so much. Yeah, because it's slow. It's slow and historical and everyone's old on it and she loves it. It's so exciting. Today's guest is Maria Sharapova. She is a five-time Grand Slam winning former professional tennis player, an investor, and an entrepreneur. And she has a book entitled Unstoppable, My Life So Far. She's a beast. It's so cool.

Like, it's fun when we have athletes on. Yeah. Because we just. Pale in comparison to them. Yeah. Yeah. But you feel so mortal around them, right? Yes.

Well, let's just start with the fact she arrived and we're the same size. Yeah. And I was like, oh, damn. Because one of my questions was going to be, or was, and I did ask, like, the showdowns with Serena when she's a 17-year-old. Yeah. That must be so intimidating. That's what I think the whole time. And then I meet her in person.

I'm like, I doubt she's intimidated by much. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Power house. Power house. Totally enjoyed it. I hope everyone else does as well.

Please enjoy Maria Sharapova. Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on a beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia. Made to travel. Oh my god! Did they tell you? That the toilet is without a doorknob. Yeah. Hi. Hi, nice to meet you. Well, let's see how tall you are.

Oh, this is wonderful. We're like eye to eye. How could I have not read that in my research? How tall are you? I'm 6'2". There we go. Nice. You know what's crazy?

I didn't even clock it when we shook hands, how tall you were. I guess everyone's taller than me, so I don't. I kind of get away with being super tall, but when I wear heels, it's like. Yeah. It's too much. How tall you were. I guess everyone's taller than me, so I don't. I kind of get away with being super tall. But when I wear heels, it's like... Yeah. It's too much. It's too much. Were you offered stuff to drink?

I'm fine. We can stop at any time if you decide you want. If you want to go into the house for 10 minutes and sit down and relax. I'm going to go work on your roof outside. We only have like an hour left of light out. I hate it. Is that true?

No, but kind of. Is someone going to change these rules? Didn't we vote on this? It's worse than that. We voted and we said we don't want to have it anymore. And then they told us, oh, it starts next year. So for two years we thought, and then we're like, well, this is the year. And then come to find out that vote was just to allow them to overturn it.

So is it coming into effect? I don't think it ever is. I don't think that vote we did means anything. Because that was three years ago that passed. I know, we've been just waiting. You're in Manhattan Beach. Yeah. Okay, so the commute for you here, miserable?

Be honest. I usually like to drive. But I looked at the map and I was like, there's no fucking way to drive today. Yeah, that's fair. Also going back to... I don't remember the last no fucking way. Yeah, that's fair. Also going back to- I don't remember last time I went this far, actually. Yeah, you should plan an entire weekend out of it

now that you're here. I planned an entire late afternoon out of this. Oh, good. So yeah, I scheduled a couple of meetings after. My friend is opening a store tonight. So I'm just going to do the whole thing. Can we recommend that you try a fun restaurant while you're over here or that's too much?

I would have said yes, but I don't have time yeah now you packed it so that would have been the only thing i would have liked to do yeah yeah let's go eat and perhaps drink yeah i have a driver well you fancy we should have had some wine for you here oh no that's fine you like wine or what's your drink doesn't well yeah yeah even if you don't drink it you do like it yeah yeah it's the experience but you have a 15 month old yeah i think he's 60 now i can't keep track we're just speaking with monica about how quickly it all goes yes and do you feel though when you get to leave that house and come here that even though normally it'd be a drag it's like a spring break.

I was just saying the guilt that you feel like leaving the house as a new era mom, going through my teens and my twenties and my early thirties. I was like, oh, I got this down. I'm this tough girl. I'm going to be okay leaving my child. Oh no. I leave the house and I think twice about it. Yeah. Like, what's the purpose of my trip? Is it really important? Your thought perspective just completely changes. But do you find this paradox you're stuck in? I forget who just posted about this, but whatever. It's well-worn.

But someone I like and respect was like, when I'm at work, I feel guilty I'm not with my child. When I'm with my child, I feel guilty I'm not pursuing my work. Absolutely. Yeah. 100% true. You cannot win. You can't win. No, it's like this balance. When was the last time we felt balanced? Yes. It's so gendered. If I'm at work, I'm like, woo, this is great. And then I'm being a dad. I'm like, I'm a great dad. There's no point. Don't you think if you're out of town for some days, you miss them, but also don't you feel like I should be back? Well, yes. I was stuck on a TV show. The hours were way too long and I was having a crisis. Like if this thing keeps going, I'm going to miss my kid's childhood. I did have the panic of that, but it wasn't the guilt that

I think moms experience. It's not like I had done something amoral. It was just, I'm providing in a way I got to figure out a different way to provide. Yeah. My whole perspective on work, on this sense of understanding what's more important than other things. Like I retired, we went into lockdown of COVID, then I was pregnant. And so, you know, I envisioned post retirement traveling around the world and experiencing these amazing cities from a different perspective. And then I gave birth to Theo, and then my world just revolves around him and work. And yeah, and I don't know when I'm going on vacation. I don't think I connected the dots between you retiring in 2020

and that, of course, we went right into quarantine. Do you think in some way I could imagine that helping a lot? Because you were probably so used to the routine and the training and the traveling and all that busyness. And then when you retire, it stops on a dime. It could have been overwhelming, but luckily everyone stopped on a dime. Do you think that helped? I'm not sure. I think there's always a part of your body and your mind that has to process a big change like that. And so whether it happens in light of a pandemic or whether it just happens because that's where life takes you, there's definitely a moment of reflection, of consideration, whether that was

the right choice. I played this one sport for over 25 years of my life. So I was committed. I was in it. It was my passion. It's where I found and searched for some of my greatest moments in life. It had to be most of your identity. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And when someone would ask whether I wanted to have dinner that evening, that thought of, well, how late is my dinner? Am I going to be as fresh the next morning if I didn't attend that dinner? You're constantly pushing your body and your mind to this next level.

And so one of the nice privileges in retirement is that you don't have to go there with your body that you don't have to go there with your body you don't have to go there with your mind but you can still apply the knowledge that you have of how far is it that you can take your body to without pushing it over the limit because as a professional athlete that's always on you're constantly pushing it and pushing it and so it's nice to just have a cold and be like well today i'm just gonna do some emails from bed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And not have to go perform in front of thousands of people. So that's been a nice change. But yes, you're absolutely right. The identity, understanding that you've had this platform for 10 months out of the year, you had a voice and beyond just being an athlete,

you attended a press conferences and you had so many different things going on. It dies down a little bit. And so what's that next version? It was very real for me. And I also appreciate that it's very real for someone that perhaps is coming off of school and finding their big next step in life and job. Or it's someone that's done one thing in their life and after several years decides that that's no longer their passion. So I could feel other people's dilemma and pain and reflection in my decision. I think there's a lot of contributing factors to why so many professional athletes

get very depressed post-career. But I would imagine one of them is you didn't have the capacity to be pursuing a bunch of other hobbies. It's so all-consuming what you were doing. I imagine when it's over, there's the obvious stuff, but then there's also like, well, I haven't been pursuing all this other stuff

that I'm going to fall back on. What's interesting about that is you only have so much time to dedicate to one craft. It was a single focus. It was the one thing that I just wanted to achieve and be great at every single day. But I also realized that it was only several hours of my day. How long am I able to go on the court and just give it all out? Probably three,

four hours, right? Then I'd go in the gym and then I'd have recovery and then I'd be in my hotel room. And so for those moments, when you are just dedicated to one thing and particularly in sports, it was so important to recover. And that's the one thing that this transition, finding the balance of what recovery looks like. Like if I played a night match at the US Open, I would take a nap come, you know, 1pm just before heading out to the courts, like 20, 30 minute nap. That was a must. Now, if I now, I mean, I don't tell anyone. You're ashamed of it, right? You're almost like, wait, I'm not supposed to be doing this. I'm supposed to be having lunch while on a Zoom call. So it's interesting the perception that

people have of a packed schedule now in order for you to look like you're busy. And the productivity is certainly not the same, but I had a lot of downtime. And as an athlete, you have a lot of downtime to spend with yourself and your mind. And so what can you do with that extra time? You ask yourself questions on what are these other passions or interests? And I was very curious as a young girl, and I learned that sport was more than just being a tennis player and having a racket and having a sponsor. It was about having a voice and actually inspiring people and bringing a message to the forefront. But it always came down to what I wanted to say with my racket. And the more that

I was able to say and the tougher that I was able to perform and the more that I won, the bigger my platform and the bigger my voice. And so that's why my focus onto this one sport was so important. Okay. Another thing I'd imagine I would have a hard time saying goodbye to, and this will be a very strange analogy, but I will say one of the great things about being an addict is you have a singular priority and there's something very comforting about that, that everything else gets downsized. Because I think so much of the anxiety of being alive is exactly what you described this morning. Like I'm going to be with the kid for this long and I'll be gone for that long. The anxiety of like making sure you're turning your focus into all the places you should and trying to decide that. Whereas when you have something like you were doing, it does give you

a great excuse that just like, Hey, this is what I'm doing for 10 months. Like if I didn't return your call, like we all know what I'm doing. I would imagine that's kind of a nice luxury. And fortunately in many ways, the sport found me, You know, my dad was a fan. Like, no one in my family had any strong sporting genes. Right. And I was just a little girl that would go with my dad as he had fun with his friends and played doubles on a public park court. And it wasn't that I had many other interests and this just happened, like, to flourish. It was, I just picked up a racket. You were three when you first picked up a racket yeah I started playing at four three sounds a little young well in fairness it said just you hit a tennis ball for the first time at four you you took maybe a lesson for the first maybe I

set my eyes on the ball yeah okay so you just went with your dad yeah casually my dad was a fan and I'd show up on the courts with him and my my mom was very young when she had me, so she was still in university. So as she was studying, I'd go with my father. I never went to kindergarten. So I was always around them and I was an only child. So all their eyes were on me and I was very well looked after. And they had just left their home, right? Because while your mom was pregnant with you, Chernobyl happened and they were at that time within 30 kilometers of Chernobyl. Yes. That's its that time within 30 kilometers of Chernobyl. Yes. That's its own unique childhood when you're growing up with parents that aren't at home.

It was a very different upbringing. I was born in Siberia because of Chernobyl explosion. Because my mom was pregnant with me, they were living 30 kilometers from the explosion in Belarus at the time. Have you considered this is why you're so tall? I mean, it's been mentioned a few times. Is your dad really tall or your mom? No one is as tall as I am. So it's definitely been a consideration. Like a superhero movie. You got the good gamma rays. And we fled to Siberia and that's where I was born. And then two years later, we moved down south to a little warmer town on the Black Sea. And then that's

where I started. And then at the age of five, my father and I flew to Florida and have lived in the U.S. since. Okay. So there's so much there. There's a lot. There has to be so much there. Ultimately, did you leave Sochi to go to Florida? Yes. You were in Sochi right before you left for Florida. So I went from palm trees to palm trees. So the visa your dad was able to obtain for you to go pursue tennis. Again, Wikipedia is wrong. You were five, not seven. I've read seven, whatever. It only allowed for you two to go. So mom couldn't join you for two years. My mom didn't join me for the first two years. I didn't see her for two years. How do we feel? What are the residual? Yeah. Like what does one pick up

from that? That's pretty traumatic for a little girl to not have mom for a couple of years. It's very interesting looking back at it because I'm now a mother of a 16 month old and I cannot imagine that type of separation. It was a world of unknown simply because visas were so difficult to get at that time, as they are now, by the way. But it just put so much emphasis on the fact that what an amazing gift that her husband and her daughter had the chance to go pursue a sport in the United States. So I think she looked at it from that perspective. And there's like a part of me that also thinks that we didn't have that direct connection with FaceTime and my dad didn't have

a cell phone. I didn't have a cell phone. So it was letters, like physical letters of writing to my mother. And not that it makes it easier or okay, but I think there was a sense of we will see each other. We don't know when that is, but I think if we had that daily seeing each other on video, it almost forms a closer bond and you constantly think, when am I going to see each other? So it feels like it could have been helpful, but it was challenging for my mother. There's something really profound about having children in re-examining your own life. Oh, absolutely.

Especially for trauma. Yeah. Being an only child and constantly being around them and seeing how supportive they were in all aspects of my life. We grew an incredible bond and also like interest levels. My father was very influential in sport and he pushed me to a certain extent and he was tough, but very fair. And my mother just came from a point of education and culture and any chance she got, even if it was in Sarasota, Florida, she would take me to the ballet there. It may have not been the best at the time, but she exposed me to different things in life that weren't just

hitting a tennis ball. That was one of her greatest gifts is she didn't really care if I was number one or 300 in the world. She wanted me to stay curious and to stay humble and to understand that hype is not real. Don't believe in it and work hard and the fruits of your label will eventually be seen in different forms. And it's not about being just number one in the world. Right. There's about three different stories happening in your life already at nine that are worthy of its own book. One would just be the life of a child prodigy tennis star, right? But the other one is immigrant family from the USSR going to Florida, mom arriving two years later. What culturally was happening when you

guys got there? Was there excitement? Was there apprehension? Completely different worldviews at that time. Yeah, I wrote an autobiography several years ago, and it was for exactly that reason, because I felt like this relationship to my father, especially in the first two years as an immigrant, was such a unique and special story. And we were lost, but we found comforts in our daily routines. And because we had a goal and we had a vision and I had a passion, I would wake up, the first thing I do is go get my racket and, Dad, let's eat breakfast fast so we can go out on the court at 6 a.m. that's all I wanted to do and so to have his guidance while we weren't financially stable at all with

$700 in our pocket as we landed in the United States it was the story we didn't speak English yeah you had to say my name in English. And my name in Russian is Masha. And when I came to the United States, they all called me Marsha. Oh, sure. Which I said, no, thank you. I'll do Maria. Okay. Wow.

So your real name's Masha. Masha, yeah. Oh, I like Masha. My hot. And I knew the basics. Oh, no. The animals. Uh-oh, where's this going?

The big breakthrough in my life was no girls like me in elementary school. And then when I got to junior high, my brother gave me a cool punk rock haircut, put me in the right clothes. Gave you a new name? My name was already Dax, so I was already there.

But Sasha, the most popular eighth grader, liked me and asked me out and it changed my whole life. And Sasha. So I had this really, it's a very, oh, it's very important.

This is almost it, Masha. I feel your energy coming through from that chair. By the way, the setup is very unique you have over here. I used the toilet just before starting this and Matt Damon's in the shower. I mean, a life-size cutout of Matt Damon. I don't know where else I'm going to find that again. Baby Monica right there. I think this is a once in a lifetime. It's a unique space.

Thank you. You're so welcome. That's like a weird clubhouse, isn't it? Yeah. There's some non-alcoholic beer. Off topic. On tap. Totally off topic.

No, that's exactly why I wanted to share that story of my life and my career on paper because it really was an amazing, beautiful chapter of my life that many of my fans, they didn't know all the details and the difficulties and how many people helped us along the way and how many people thought that we wouldn't make it and try to make it extremely difficult for myself. And how did we go through all those red lights and how did we find another path to keep going and the inspiration? That's why I loved writing it. Do you have memories of things being exciting when you got here? Like, I don't know, Burger King, the beach. Everything was larger. Okay,

right. Like a cookie jar was just larger, which I appreciate it because I have a huge sweet tooth. I just remember this large jar of animal cookies. It was probably from Costco or something. Yeah, big box stores. Those didn't exist. And even the dollar stores were probably my father's shop. Everything just came in XXL size. We were in Cuba not terribly long ago. I guess eight years ago, we were in Cuba and we befriended this young woman. And she had only left Cuba one time. I said, where did you go? And she said, I went to Russia. And I go, what did you think? And she goes, I just couldn't believe

how well everything worked. And I go, you need to come to the U.S. I was like, wait. Well, that's what a state of disrepair Cuba is. The electricity is going, even when we were there, the electricity is going out nonstop. The elevators don't work. Buildings are crumbling.

So she went there and she was like, this place is like a Swiss clock. Yeah. Everything felt cleaner. Just the roads, having five lanes on a freeway. Right. It was huge. And what'd your mom think? So my mom arrived and she just thought I had a really bad haircut.

And that was only because my father just. He was handling that? Wasn't very skillful. He was handling everything. And all the clothes I were wearing were completely mismatched. So she was like, I got to get my daughter back on track here. What did he do job-wise out here? Just a bunch of jobs, very random, piecing it together,

finding a few dollars here and a few dollars there. Could you feel the stress of it? Not at all. Well, because this is my hunch, and I don't want it to sound derogatory at all to Russia, but I would imagine even a low-income lifestyle in Florida might be still kind of more bells and whistles than it was back in Russia.

Yes, we were comfortable back home. We didn't have much, but we had enough. When I look back at my childhood in the first five, six years there, I didn't see anything wrong with it. I was a kid, and I had a great upbringing, When I look back at my childhood and the first five, six years there, I didn't see anything wrong with it. I was a kid and I had a great upbringing and I was with my parents and I ate yummy food and I had a few friends and I played a sport. I don't look back at it and think, oh, I desperately needed to get out of that situation. So I think the idea of going back to what we had wasn't so bad.

what we had wasn't so bad. When I think about the pressure that I most certainly must have had at some type of level or age, maybe I managed it better than others because I appreciated that if I go back to the beginnings that I had, that I would be okay and that I would be comfortable. My parents and particularly my father, who was my coach for many years, he didn't establish what success was or what level of success I needed to achieve in order for us to feel like we had made it. That's the greatest gift that he gave me is that it was about piecing a few days together of great practices and improvements and perhaps playing a tournament one weekend, losing to someone and then going to another tournament and beating that same person. He saw those as victories and he taught me those lessons. And so I would put all those scenarios in a bag and I'd hope that one day they would help me and that I'd pull those few tricks out and my improvements and my hard work and it would help me in a match scenario. Did school feel inanely frivolous to

you? I loved school. You loved it. I loved school. And how did you get on in school? Because you're obviously learning the language. I was mostly homeschooled. I attended a school at an academy in Florida. Is this part of IMG?

Yes. They had a school system? So they had a school system for athletes that traveled. Quickly, this is where Andre Agassi trained. Okay, yeah. Many, many athletes. And that was the goal. That's why they went to Florida

is to go to this incredible place. Yeah, I mean, it was just a training factory and it had school and several other sports. And the greatest part about that academy is that you had so many kids

that you could compete with. So you just immediately understood your level. You had girls and boys from all around the world that you were testing yourself against. Wait, why is Florida, is it just because of this IMG?

Now I'm remembering. That was the epicenter of academies of the sport. When someone says Florida and a tennis academy, that's immediately where everyone's mind goes. It's like Serena and Venus were also there. Yeah, exactly. Yes, Andre. Koto is there currently, right? No, I believe she trained or trains in France, but I could be wrong.

Okay, okay. You know, you guys are the exact same age. I know. We established that before. We Okay, okay. You know, you guys are the exact same age. I know, we established that before. We did, yes. I know, you've lived many more lives than me, so I feel a bit intimidated. Yeah, well, on the height and yeah.

Okay, well, you don't need to put your own spin on it. I love that you're the same age, because it's really. I know. Because I'm thinking of your life at seven. I was learning how to ride a bike in my garage. I still't know how to ride a bike by the way i'm not very good so on my way here i had a call with one of your dear friends adam grant oh we love that yes he's doing a book tour shortly so we're discussing something about that and he always laughs at me when i tell him that i'm not very sporty. He finds that very funny. He's like,

what do you mean you're not sporty? I was like, you do not want to see me ride a bicycle. How do you do with swimming? Because Monica also struggles with swimming. I swim okay, but like more in the Mediterranean than the pool. So with glass of rosé. Exactly. Were there any boyfriends along the way in this Florida? Not many. No, I was still really young. And then I started coming out to LA at like 11, 12. Okay.

So I was still young. There was a coach here that I started coming out to see and I'd come out every few months. I remember my father actually found this coach and he was making a little bit more money. And he said, and he was just collecting a few extra dollars and saying, when I have enough, we're going to buy a plane ticket to Los Angeles because you're going to go see this coach. And then I turn on the TV and I'd see like news of, I don't know, shootings. And I'd be like, oh no, that's in Hollywood somewhere. And is that where we're going, dad? And he's like, yes, but we're just going to see a tennis coach. I just remember being like, are you sure we want to go to Los Angeles? It's scary there.

And I love, ever since 12 years old, I've been basically living in California. Oh, really? I thought you were in Florida for the bulk of years old, I've been basically living in California. Oh, really? Yeah. I thought you were in Florida for the bulk of all this. I would still go back and forth. But you're at a camp and there's co-eds and they're away from a lot of supervision. I would imagine that there would be so many cute crushes happening. Everyone's too focused.

Is that it? We had a little apartment with my father. I did stay for like six months or something. And it was with other girls and they were much older than I was. That was actually quite a difficult period of my stays there because they didn't accept that I was good at one thing and that I was super focused and I wasn't part of the friends group. Okay, so this came as a great shock to us, but when we interviewed Sean White, we would have imagined everyone in the snowboard world

loved him and the skateboard world where he was a champion in both worlds. And he's like, no, nobody liked me. They hated that I was at the competition because I won them all the time. I see these other guys, they all seem to be friends. And it was a very isolating experience for him. That's exactly how it felt when I was in the dorm. I was young. I was there on a scholarship. I mean, we could not afford. It was 35 grand a year, right? And now it's, I was in the dorm. I was young. I was there on a scholarship. I mean, we could not afford. It was $35,000 a year, right? And now it's, I think, like three times as much. But yeah, at the time, it was probably that.

And my parents could definitely not afford that. And so I was so lucky that I had that scholarship and that I was able to board there for some time, but also just to be able to train. And I knew everyone that boarded there paid the fees. And everyone that boarded there paid the fees and everyone that boarded there also knew that I didn't pay the fees. And so it's kind of a sticky subject, right? Because you know, you're there with a purpose and a goal and you're so young, but I definitely felt that I was following a different road and that my path was different and that I had to stay focused. And as I look back, I think that was my strength because I was talented at the sport, but I was never the strongest physically.

I mean, tennis is a very physical sport. You know, I was lanky. I wasn't super coordinated. That's probably where my bike skills come in. But I had this ability to do this one thing over and over and not lose my focus and not lose my concentration. So the mental stability and resilience when things weren't working well, acceptance of a bad day or a bad match at that age, I think really helped me move forward and move quicker than some of the rest of my dorm mates. You're a wunderkind, right? At 13, you start competing in the 16-year-old class.

So your first kind of touch of glory is 13 and winning in a 16-year-old division, and then deciding to go professional after that at 14? Yes. Have you met a 14-year-old lately? I know in your own mind, you probably think you were so old, but have you talked to a 14-year-old lately? No, I appreciate that. They're babies. Yes. So there was a limit on how many tournaments you could play. So when you say I turned professional, it wasn't that I was playing like 20 tournaments a year. But I was playing girls that were in their 20s. She turned pro on her 14th birthday. And lost badly.

I remember that better than my birthday party. How did you take both the winning and the losing? Back then or general? Back then. I was tough on myself. Can I argue from what you've told me about your life? It's not like you have 25 friends that you're also celebrated in that world and you're going to go out to a pizza place and have a blast. This is what you do. This is virtually all you do, I'm imagining. Right. So when you lose and you've dedicated, you've really sacrificed the whole rest of your life for this thing. I have to imagine it's worse than when I would have lost. I don't know. I have always thought that losing, and perhaps that's a lesson that my dad taught me,

perhaps it's something that I learned along the way, but I think losing sets you up for winning. I think the lessons that you learn when you are not at your best is when you're doing your best work. I never thought that I was playing my best tennis when I was at the top of my sport or number one in the world. And mostly because those times there's a sense of confidence and fearlessness that when you're performing at that level, things are automatic in a way. And when you win a match, you high five your team and you kind of move on to the next. But it's when you lose that you go back to the drawing board, you huddle with your team, you have the tough conversations, you're in a vulnerable moment, particularly after losing, say, first round of a Grand Slam or even the final, which is one of the

toughest moments for an athlete in tennis because you're out there getting a runner-up trophy what other sport is the losing team out there or the losing individual getting a runner's up trophy while tens of thousands of people are watching you as you're crying and upset and sad and you know you've gone that far and yet it's the silver medal complex. Yes. Right? The people that get bronze are happier than me. In tennis, though, it's not silver medal.

It's you lost or you won. And that's worse than like— Zero-sum. Yeah. So that's to say that losing, as tough as it was, I appreciated the lessons that losing gave me. There's nothing to learn from a win virtually. Winnings, I don't want to say it's easy because it's not, but there were moments in my career when I would play so well and I would win a tournament, maybe two in a row, and I'd be on this winning streak that in a sense, I forgot how

to lose. It's very dangerous to forget how to lose because losing is an emotion that you have to go through on your own but also it's an acceptance with your team to tell them I played like crap and I lost for these reasons like you have to be honest you have to be so raw and are you ready for that and so when you haven't had that feeling of losing you've been on this winning streak. You lose the ability to walk through that gracefully. My theory on players that do really well for a big tournament, then perhaps another one, and then lose early, then it's very difficult to kind of get back on track because it takes a lot more work.

Like the self-examination, if that makes sense. Will you consult tape? Like, is it that detailed? It's as detailed as you want it to be. you have to decide for yourself what team member you want and you also have to pay for them yeah yeah yeah so it's like do you need a physical therapist do you need a fitness coach do you need a hitting partner do you need a mental coach do you need a chef those are your choices yeah whereas a team provides those and has those on hand and you tap into them. Right. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Sasha hated sand, the way it stuck to things for weeks.

So when Maddie shared a surf trip on Expedia Trip Planner, he hesitated. Then he added a hotel with a cliffside pool to the plan. And they both spent the week in the water. You were made to follow your whims. We were made to help find a place on the beach with a pool and a waterfall and a soaking tub and, of course, a great shower. Expedia. Made to travel. Would it be fair to say, though, that when you're looking at a winner, you're looking at somebody that has to have been honest with themselves? That it would be impossible to reach that height if you didn't have the ability to be critical and honest with yourself. It's got to be prerequisite. I think it's the best test of character. And that's not just about the athlete themselves, but also the team. I want to win with a coach that knows how to lose with me. I want to know that I can be in their presence and they can accept a tougher

version of Maria that's upset and perhaps not happy with how training has gone in the past few months or wants to see change or whatever it is like having a difficult conversation I want to choose a partner and a coach that is honest about it and accepts it and gives it back to me do you think that this ability to take an honest and thorough inventory of your play has transferred into your interpersonal relationships do you think you're good at acknowledging when you and your partner have a fight? Are you able to apply that same skill? Now we're getting into relationships now. That's what this show's all about, Maria.

I see. It's just a conversation. Yes. I'm not someone that says a lot. I don't speak all the time just to speak. I think I'm more thoughtful. It feels very Russian of you. Is that a kind of Russian characteristic? Probably. It's a great characteristic. I'm more of an observer. And then when I'm confident in what I want to say or I feel like I've done enough research about something and I have conviction in my thoughts, then I say it.

That's why I didn't think that I could be a good commentator because I don't just like to fill up the oxygen with words. I would say in America, it's so valued that you have an opinion and a point of view that you often just start expressing an opinion, hoping you will know what your opinion is by midway through.

You don't even know what it is. You're just saying stuff. It is so American right now. I think it's the problem with the world is that everyone feels that they have to have an opinion on absolutely everything and they have to say it loudly and everyone has to hear it. Yeah. Yeah, it's not interesting how you have to have.

That's what I'm finding. I don't know if challenging, but there's definitely this extra weight on everyone where you're put in a position to have something to say without really having the time to figure out what it is that you want to convey. Everyone has willingly become publishers of a newspaper, which is they have to fill their timeline, be it on Twitter or Instagram or wherever. They've got to fill it with content as if they're a magazine, but they don't have the time or a staff to actually put out the content. It's a skill. Well, they're running on an algorithm. Then it starts running your life. Yes.

That's my beef with social media. There's an external pressure of constantly having to show up for it so that there's relevance in this digital universe of your presence. Made up thing. This thing we made up. Yeah. It's crazy. And I never had anyone help with any things that I've done on social,

but I've definitely faced that pressure of, oh, if I don't post for a week, then no one's ever going to see my post when I do make that post. Right. Yes. Yes. But then you have to stay true to who you are and you have to beat to your own drum. Is that the saying? Yeah. Walk to the beat of your own drum. Sure. It's all in there. Beat your own drum, I think is is the common denominator. Of course, I got it wrong. Wait, relationships. We left that dangling. We left that dangling. Everyone has a different way of approaching conflict and conversations. And you're right, I have the same approach as I had in my career, where it's thoughtful, I give it some time, but I'm not very patient and I'm very stubborn. Yeah, me too. Me too. I want to get to the chase. I give it some time, but I'm not very patient and I'm very stubborn.

Yeah, me too. Me too. I want to get to the chase. I want to get there. And I can't imagine you're terribly afraid of confrontation because again, I don't think you could have gotten where you've gotten without having to have very difficult conversations with coaches and colleagues. No, I'm okay with it. You are, right? Yes, exactly. This is a high octane combo. I have the same one. Don't mind confrontation. Very impatient.

I think stubbornness leads you to several good things in life, like persistence and resilience. And when you have some type of feedback that's difficult, but you just get through it, you take it as it is and then just keep going. So I think it served me well, but in some instances in my career, I think was the deficit. There's so many highlights we could go through, but one I want to jump to is 04. So at 17 years old, you win your first Grand Slam, Wimbledon, 17 years old against Serena. Yes. Wow. Now that I've seen how tall you are, I have a little less of this question, but I can't imagine a more intimidating opponent at 17 in the finals at Wimbledon.

I need to know what was happening mentally. How were you regulating yourself? Were you intimidated? Do you have a zone you go to? How the fuck do you navigate that moment? There was so much on the line in that match one of the biggest reasons was because it was a wimbledon actually had just played serena a few months back at a tournament in miami and she easily won that match in two sets and it was the moment itself where i

really felt the weight it was the fact that wimbledon in my eyes growing up was the event, the tournament, the place where as a professional, you want to end up, you want those fringe doors to open to center court. And it did. And it just happened to be the final for me. And it's interesting. It was one of the first few times in my career as a young girl that I felt what it was like to be in the zone. You know, when athletes speak about being in the flow and in the zone, I had that moment in the middle of the tournament and it was in the fourth round.

And it's not that I had that much experience in these Grand Slam tournaments. Just two weeks before that was my first time getting to a quarterfinal at the French Open. Even though I lost, it was a huge victory. If the season had ended, that would have been an enormous... Great, right, right. I found myself in this flow state in the middle of the event playing against someone that also should

have beaten me, but I won that match so confidently and so routinely. And it felt like I was letting go of all the repetition that I put. I was letting go of any fear that I had and I just allowed the moment and my skill to shine through. Would you say there's a bit of magic involved? Like why it hits you when it hits you? You could prepare in the same way I'd imagine for a thousand matches. And it never works the same. Right. So there is some bizarre ethereal magic that takes over, right? To think how many things have to align and work for you to get to that moment.

And what a big, big deal it is. And I think it was also a gift that I'd never been in that position. And so as a 17-year-old, I was fearless because I didn't have any experience. I didn't have like, oh, I've been in this moment. All I had was just, I'm playing a phenomenal opponent that's achieved so much. And I'm playing in one of the biggest stages in sport. I forget about tennis. Yeah, exactly.

And I've been, because I was so young, on the cover of every paper every day since the fourth round of this tournament. And the British media ads, everything was just boiling to this moment. And if you can just only win this match, right? And I had horse blinders on. It was just me. It was just my opponent. And even though all those external factors that I just mentioned were present in every way, I didn't think about them at all. They were deep in the deep background. I woke up that morning. We stayed at a family's house. We rented the upper floor. It was like, I wanted to say bed and breakfast, but they didn't even give us breakfast. We rented two bedrooms.

And I remember I woke up with a bit of a cold and I was so upset because I didn't have a strong immune system. So of course I called my mom and I was like so upset. My dad's like, just have your oatmeal, have your strawberries. You know, you'll get to the courts, you'll have your warmup and you'll be completely fine. And I was completely fine. Yeah. So every time I've had a cold since, I look back to that moment, I think of my father's words, you're going to be fine. Yeah. Do you think maybe it was manifested, the cold a little bit? Because there's so much fear. Oh, I'm sure. The body showed a way.

The body was like a way out almost. I mean, probably. Yeah. Get me out of this. The body's like, this is so stressful. We're going to give you an excuse. Yeah, exactly. And I was like, no, I'm still showing up.

This was going to be an overall question, but I'm uniquely interested at this moment in time. When do you know you can win do you know you don't so you don't have a moment where you go i'm gonna win no you don't tennis isn't like that though because i feel like it could change too many opportunities yeah there's so many momentum swings and it's also that feeling everyone functions differently in those moments and scenarios but I was never a player that wanted to feel overly confident. I liked when my preparation wasn't exactly going

according to plan or when I wasn't my best physically because I'd get on the stage and like that first round match and I knew I had to put an extra. I didn't like that feeling of content, of feeling like, oh, things are going well. My chances are good. No, I was like, actually, no, I've had a pretty crap week. You know, and I got to bring it. And maybe it was just my defensive mechanism of functioning with opportunity like that.

But it's really how I went about almost every single event. It was very rare that I showed up and said, I'm feeling fantastic. I would never say that to my coach. Right. Okay. When you walk out and it's about to start, do you at any point think I'm opponent. Also, I'd like to do video analysis. So the older I got, the more video I had to watch and the more times I'd face these opponents. And it's very rare that you had like a 6-0 win to loss record. So there are definitely times where you lost to those opponents. And I'd love to look at those matches because those are real. Those were moments that

could happen and they could happen again. And also like my body language, I like to examine, did I show my opponent that this wasn't my day? Okay, maybe I wouldn't win today, but am I going to be there until the very last point? So they know and they feel that pressure that the match isn't over until they win the very last point. I love that tennis show on Netflix so much.

You're on it. Breakpoint. Yes, Breakpoint is so good. It's fun seeing everyone's feedback on it because I think it's the first time that a show has been done on the sport. And there are times where it's quite dark. Yeah.

And the one piece of feedback I've received is people hadn't really appreciated how dark and lonely it is. If I had to list in order the most mental games you know if it's not number one i feel like it's tied maybe with like golf too i see i see golfers what golfers go through over those three days and like they're ahead they're ahead they're ahead and then something just clicks they're nothing they don't not have the ability to do it. It's so clearly 100% mental. Do you think tennis is number one as far as being just mental, mental, mental?

I think you may have more opportunity because both golf and tennis, the schedules are so long. And this idea of constantly having to show up and having a responsibility and an average amount is probably like 19 to 20 tournaments a year. And when you're not playing a tournament, you're training. So the pressure of constantly having to perform at a high level and everything that comes with just being an athlete at an event, the sponsor responsibilities, the interviews, the press, you have a schedule of things at Formula One. I mean, what Lewis is doing ahead of a race.

I actually was in Miami and I saw some of his sponsor responsibilities and I just couldn't believe the amount of events and interviews. And the teams hosting parties that the sponsors are there and you got to be there at night and you got to be there in the morning. And then how do you wake up and want to do your job, beat someone? Yeah. Yeah. When so much of your energy is drained. I think it also just shows you when there is that individual and that star, right, that wins over and over, how special it is. Yes. Because of everything else that they've also had to be responsible for. Yeah, that's really true.

Not just the tennis part. Can we wrap up, Serena? Is that the greatest victory? Is that the most relief you've ever felt? It wasn't even relief. It was like, you're so young. You don't really even know the stakes of what you're doing in a weird way. It's strange being an athlete in the midst of their sport.

Because as much as you realize how special it is to hold the big trophies, it's almost like an artist that has to pass away or become older for everyone else and for themselves to acknowledge and realize what weight they had in that field. It's hard to be present in it. Because it's a cycle that just constantly continues. And I'm not saying that's great. It is what it is. And you can't get ahead of yourself. You can't think, oh, I'm just the Wimbledonledon champion you know like the barista still making coffee at your local coffee shop and you can't believe the hype yeah but that must be hard especially with your favorite approach which is i need to feel a little bit off a little bit underdoggy a little chaotic like i'm on the cliff

but when all the rock trembling a little bit are coming in and they're asking you to be on the cover of this that must be hard. Well, that's where your team comes in. That's where the no's are so important. That's when you need a bulldog at the gate saying, hey, I'm protecting here. You have to say no in order for better opportunities and for a powerful yes to come about. This is a subject that comes up often. Being a retired athlete is around female empowerment.

And what does that mean? And you have to establish what is it that you're passionate about from a young age, because you do have a platform and you do have a voice that you cannot take for granted when you're young. I mean, Billie Jean King came up to me, I was about 14 years old, and she said, what you do today, tomorrow, in 10 years ultimately sets up a path for the next generation, which is so powerful. I didn't realize the power of that message then. I certainly do now. But it's really important to also find other lanes because as a female athlete, there will be a point in your career where you will have to make decisions whether you want to continue or not because your body may be breaking down or you want to start a family or you just lose passion whatever the

reason what is it in your life that you're also curious and passionate about and that you want to know more and that you want to grow on and so you do have to say yes to opportunities like whether they are sponsors that can help grow you in another dimension. I think that's really valuable. It just has to be the right one. And it's very difficult to determine what the right partner is for you. It really is. When you were talking about your dad, he was your coach for a while. Was it complicated?

It's always complicated when dad's involved. Yeah, I bet. Right? Yeah. Of course. Well, you just said Lewis. Like Lewis at some point had to fire his father. Right.

I mean, I did too. At 21 years old. That's what I wanted to ask about. So my father was my coach from the very beginning for one reason, because we didn't have money for another option. Yeah. So the longer he was my coach, the more he knew about me and my game and knew what was best for me. And so that is what I appreciated is that there was no one else that knew my struggles and my challenges and my game and the belief that he had in me was exceptional. But he also knew how to challenge me in the right ways, which in the

dynamic of a father-daughter is very hard. How much do you push your child so that they get the most out of this, but they're not in a year or two saying, no, dad, you pushed me so much that I want to leave. So it's such a fine line. I'm already thinking about it as a parent. How tough are you in order to be in line and to be right, but also to make sure that they have a chance to make their own decisions. I still have an amazing relationship with my father and I value it because we went through this journey together and it was so unique. I imagine what would be hard about that is it's working. Even up till 21, like it's working. You're yielding results. You're ranked number one at 18. You know, you win the US Open, then you win the Australian. All this happens before you have to fire him. So

I would imagine it's not like you have the best case to make, like this isn't working. It's that I wanted to do it on my own. We got there as a team and we're a phenomenal team. And I felt mature enough to make that decision because I was comfortable with where my game was. I was comfortable with the other team that I had. And it was also, I wanted him to enjoy his life. He spent 20 years working and grinding and bringing in the best talent to help me grow and just being by my side all the time. And there was like a part of me that just wanted to repay him in a way that money doesn't. And I wanted him to have some freedom in his life. And, you know, he's like an adventure. He loves to bike and to hike. And I was like, go the mountain somewhere. Yeah.

He was fine with it. I think some part of me would also be like, hey, just be my dad now. Like, let me just be your daughter. You be my dad. I don't think I thought that that would ever be an issue for him. I knew that he would always be there as a dad. It was actually because I made that decision

after winning my third Grand Slam that I said, that he would always be there as a dad. It was actually because I made that decision after winning my third Grand Slam that I said, now is when I want to make the change. I was taking a huge chance. I wanted to prove something that was for me. And it was an ego check, I think, for both of us. For my father to be like, okay, I'll step away from my position as the leader of the team. And also for me, it's quite ballsy to be like, oh, everything's working, but I just want to do it my way now, dad. Yeah, let me fix something that's not broken at all. Yeah. We just want time to make a change. I mean, that happens all the time now, by the way.

It does. Well, I had a global question for you because we all watch these docs. You watch Tiger and you find out what his dad did. Verstappen and his father, Serena and Venus, their father. Do you think a kid can become a champion without that parent? A friend of ours, Charlie, he was a college football player. That was his life. He's got two boys. He's like, I just don't really think I have it in him to stay on them enough to make them champions. And then we were just thinking like, yeah, can you become one without that? What's interesting is there are many examples in the world of alternative sports, snowboarding, skateboarding, BMX, all this.

And my hunch there is that those kids all had to do it on their own because their parents weren't trying to fulfill any of their own fantasy of being in those roles. So they didn't even care, oh, you're going to do that thing. So we see it there, but we don't see it really in other sports. Do you think you can get a champion without being that kind of parent? I think you need somebody in your corner that is pushing you and protecting you. And they are very different roles. And I think when you are not perhaps connected to the child as a parent, the protection element is difficult to achieve at that level as a parent. I felt very much since becoming a mother, this wanting to be and wanting to do anything I could to be there for

my son because I want him to be under my wing and feel that he's safe and secure and happy. And I don't know if it's not someone that was with you from a young age and that has seen you grow up and that is just invested in you as a human being. It's, I think, hard to build a skill of being like a protective parent and playing that role. I haven't seen it often. Yeah. Do you know, did you have any peers? Like we just watched the Beckham documentary too. Yeah. It's like the dad's like over and again and again and again and again and again. And you wonder, could he have ever done it on his own gumption without the again and again?

And his dad loved soccer so much. So there's something vicarious that's happening with a lot of these parental figures where it works. Tiger's dad, he wanted to be a golfer. But what's so interesting about these parent characters is it's not that they knew what success looked like because they themselves have never reached it at that level right and so it's so interesting to watch them go through their sons or their daughter's journey and how do they handle it and how do they keep their egos in check? It's like a big. Yes.

So complicated. It's very, very complex. Your boy isn't old enough yet, but already ours are eight and 10. And anything spectacular that they do, you have to check yourself. Your first thought is like, yep, I'm doing a great job. I got him to do that. And then the other boy is like, you didn't have anything to do with this genetically or this way. And you know, fucking high-fiving yourself. My son made a owl sound and I was like, Oh my genius. Genius. He's gotta be that came from me. And then you go and it's because I read to him and I look

him in the eye. You take some ownership over their stuff. I love that feeling though. I was joking from the beginning because as I was cleaning like milk bottles, I just looked back at my career and thinking of all the sports drink bottles that I would clean after a day of practice. And I was like, it is as if my previous life has set me up for success. I've got this down. Repetition. How many diapers have you changed? It's all gone. More than Alexander. Putting him under the bus. So your career is spectacular.

You're a career Grand Slam winner. That sounds very fancy. It is very fancy. For people who don't maybe know that much about tennis. Okay, so right. There's a bunch of tournaments throughout the year. There's four majors. There's the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimb. Okay, so right. There's a bunch of tournaments throughout the year. There's four majors. There's the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon, and US Open. And if you were to win all of them in your career, that's called a career grand slam.

It could be a glam slam too. That'd be cool. Well, you know, I was already starting to say the next thing, which is a fun one, which is a golden grand slam, which is if you win an Olympic gold and a grand slam, you can be a golden grand slam. There's a lot of different. There's a lot of different. There's a lot of variety. Pick your own little holiday basket. But your career is spectacular. I am curious because you won silver in the London Olympics 2012.

And there's been all this wonderful social science about the plague of silver. People enjoy bronze. They like winning a bronze. They got to be up on the podium. I mean, I like bronze too for my house pictures. of silver. People enjoy bronze. They like winning a bronze. They got to be up on the podium. I mean, I like bronze too. For my house fixtures. Yeah, some nice waterworks bronze. Were you bummed that you won a silver in the Olympics? I guess that's my question.

It was the only Olympics that I competed in. Yeah, because you couldn't go to Beijing because you had your rotator cuff. Yes. And the first one after oneomaland was too late or too young. One of those. I don't even remember. I, of course, as an athlete. You want gold. You want gold.

I mean, I don't know. There's no other way to say it. A lay person would assume, myself included, if I won a silver in the Olympics, I would be on top of the world. But that's not the case. It's very well documented. Yeah. Like in tennis, it's either the champions trophy or that's it it's as if you weren't there yeah but there was huge significance in that the feeling of being part of like for a tennis player that plays so many events it does

almost take away the meaning of what the olympics is because you're just constantly going from one event to another. And although the majors are where you want to perform the best, the Olympics is at that level, but it's once in four years. So you move on to the next one. I won that silver medal and I think I had to fly somewhere in the US to play another tournament. So it's such a quick, I know it sounds crazy. You don't have time to wallow. You don't have time. Yeah. That's kind of a blessing. Yeah. In some ways. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of a blessing, yeah? In some ways. Yeah.

In other ways, it burbles up because you never processed it. You're like arguing with your husband. All of a sudden, the silver medal's burbling. Somewhere there dangling. Is it on display anywhere? No. If you come to my home, you wouldn't even know I play tennis. Well, that's nice and not tacky.

Her home was an architectural digest. It's gorgeous. Oh, you saw her house. Yeah, it's so beautiful. Thank you. I'm mad I didn't see it. You can see it. I'm going to check it out.

I'm nosy as a motherfucker. I mean, you did do your homework. You've got the stats right. But you can imagine where someone who does have a trophy case at home. Yes. You can imagine someone not putting their silver medal in it because it would remind them that they were mad. I guess. But tennis, I guess, like you said, it's sort of like basketball.

The U.S. basketball team, they just pop into the Olympics, it seems like. Then they pop out. They're back to their normal. And they'd certainly rather win the NBA finals. They just add a little extra weight to their suitcase. Yes. It's just an added thing. It's not the most important thing.

It is special, but you do move on very quickly. Just really quick. If I had the silver medal, that's how you'd have to knock on my front door. Oh, my gosh. It would be strapped to the front door and you'd have to use it to go. Use the knocker? Yes, it'd be the knocker. Or a door stopper.

That would be also good. You should dig it up and use it as a door stop. Sure. I mean, be my guest. You can borrow it. I would love to rent it off you and put it on. Put it in Sure. I mean, be my guest. You can borrow it. I would love to rent it off you and put it on. Put it in here with all our knickknacks. And your knickknacks.

It would look so good. Okay. Also interesting about your career, it's not new, but the level at which you did it was novel in that you were very, very busy with lots of business as well. You were the spokesperson. I think people always had racket contracts and sneakers, but you were doing fashion. You were doing products. You had what would otherwise be a very full-time job as a ambassador for brands. Did you enjoy all that? I loved it.

I could see if you were shy, it might be uncomfortable. So I was eager to learn. The amazing part about being in a room with big brands is that these are individuals that are very smart. They're the best of the best in marketing and advertisement, CFOs to CEOs. And it was like a free education on my day job. And there was a choice just to be the face of a brand and to show up to a Tiffany shoot or to a Porsche shoot. I mean, I worked with incredible brands and I would say to myself, why not use this opportunity to learn about the process?

Like what does it take to put together a fashion shoot? Who's putting this together? What are the pieces? What are the responsibilities? So when you show up to a shoot after knowing all this, you're not just clocking your time. You are understanding everything that goes on behind the scenes.

And that's what makes great events. That's what makes great product. So that's what I appreciated about those partnerships. But clearly it interested you, the business aspect. I acknowledge that tennis wouldn't be my entire life. And it's really hard to do that as an athlete because it is your universe and it's such a big part of your identity. And so you're afraid to realize that is a part of your life, but it's not all of you. Yeah, it would feel dangerous to acknowledge that.

Like you might lose your mojo. Exactly. I love the idea. I mean, when I would travel and they would still have those forms that you'd fill out, like your name and what's your occupation. Handwriting that I was an athlete brought so much joy to me. Yes. Like that was my identity.

But everything else that came with it, like meetings with the C-suite of Nike and incredible brands that made me want to get in the weeds of a business, that was fascinating. And when I'd have time and I would be injured and that would happen a lot just because I'm constantly an athlete and you're getting injured. Yeah, like free shoulder surgeries. I would be injured and that would happen a lot just because constantly an athlete and you're, you know, getting injured. You have free time besides the rehab and getting yourself back and staying in shape. You have time to learn. I wanted to get in the weeds of businesses because for some reason I realized that this would be like my life moving forward. I'm so fascinated. The ultimate rags to riches story. If you come from the Soviet Union with $700 and then you become the highest paid female athlete for 11 years in a row, what's the family's relationship with that abundance? It's so funny. I don't spend a lot on things that you think I spend on, like shoes. I like shoes,

but you go into my closet and you're like, what were the rest of the shoes? I don't have a lot of things in my house because aesthetically I just appreciate less. And so when I do buy, I don't buy cheaply. I definitely say that, but I buy well in a way that I will live with these things. Like I will wear these shoes for a long time and I will rinse and repeat them. And then I will buy a sofa that I'm going to reupholster in five years. And I'm going to keep that sofa because I made a conscious decision that this was the right one for me and it's going to live with me. So decisions that I make around money are around useful things. I love to travel. I genuinely love to explore and be uncomfortable

and be comfortable. I like to stay. I like to be comfortable. But I love like going down an alley and unexpectedly coming into an antique shop and finding that silver spoon that I'm never going to use. But it's just like that. You are really preaching to the choir. Oh, those little shops. And I love taking my friends on those journeys. I would only have two weeks of vacation every year, maybe 10 days.

So one week a year, I promised to my mom and to my friends that every November off season, I take them to an extravagant vacation. Nice. So when I started making money, I remember the first big moment, holiday moment was I went to the Amman in Phuket. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I must have gained. So I mean, all I ate was like sticky rice and white rice and this rice,

mango rice. How ironic you also worked with Amman, no? Yeah. I've become a wellness ambassador as they call it, which is a funny title, but I am curating retreats. I'm bringing in talent that I used to work with in my career, everything from recovery to breath work, to performance, working out, just like a holistic approach for their clients for three days. So that's why I mentioned Phuket because our first one is going to be in Phuket. Oh, it is? Yeah, in February, which is very exciting. And you're taking Monica and I. Are these just athletes or are we? No, they're inner athletes. Could definitely be. But you have cute stories of like you won Wimbledon and you had been to California so many times,

as you already said. And after Wimbledon, you went to California, but you stayed in a very nice hotel. It actually wasn't that it was so nice. It was definitely an upgrade from where we were staying before. I went back to my coach for training week after winning Wimbledon,

after taking a couple of days off. And my manager booked us into a different hotel and we show up at this hotel and it's very close to the ocean. You could hear the waves. It wasn't an ocean view. Hadn't made that much money yet. Parking lot view, but could hear the ocean.

But I could hear the ocean. And I went to the bathroom and there was a bath and there was like a yellow rubber duck. I called my manager and I said, I made it. I really made it. But this is what I'm talking about. So this is the cute part of your story and I hope, I made it. I really made it. But this is what I'm talking about. So this is the cute part of your story. And I hope you're grateful for it because a lot of the kids you

were playing tennis with at IMG, they were already rich. The parents were already sending them this $35,000. So when they made it, they like bought a house next to the house they already grew up in. There's really no sense of like, God damn it, there's rubber ducks in the tub. So I just want to know, did mom and dad, I mean, really came from a very modest background. Money is a very interesting dynamic when you go from having a little to a lot in a very quick turn around.

No middle ground. You don't learn to manage it slowly. No middle ground. And not only the relationship with money, but the dynamic of the relationship between your parents and yourself as a youngster and money. Yes, and you're giving your parents money. Exactly. Yeah, that's a unique dynamic for a child and parent.

And I have to say it is one of the greatest gifts that my parents gave me was they never had the desire to extravagantly spend the money that I provided for them. Well, they probably have the same fear of it that I do or anyone else. Perhaps, but it's so easy to spend. Yeah. It's so easy to be like, oh, that's a shiny car. And I'm not personally fascinated by those things, but I do appreciate like a great vacation with my friends. I love shiny cars. And I love treating them. Vacations are the place to spend. They're the experiences. That's what they say.

You leave your everyday world, your responsibilities. It's very rare that we get to slow down and reflect. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. Were you lonely on tour? It's a coin, right?

On one side of the coin, if you're on a team sport, you share the losses together, which is helpful. You share the victories together, which is less rewarding ego-wise, because it also shared. But probably for me, all comes out in the wash. I guess I'd prefer the team experience, but it's such a solitary sport. On that tour, are people friends or is the competition so tough? It's hard to make deep friendships. And that's coming from my own experience of being in it and being a part of it on a daily basis. It's just hard to say, let's go have a shrimp cocktail. And then tomorrow I just want to rip you apart. You need to protect your competitive edge. To have that mentality, I had difficulty with. And I realized that I had difficulty with that from a very early age.

When I would go to the courts, that was my office. It was the world where I would show up, I would perform and win or lose. I'd go home and I had my friends to call and my parents were there. That was enough and that was okay. But everyone is very different. So there are people on tour that are- I think so. Hailing around other players. I don't know how, you know, is it an acquaintance? Is it a friend? Is it someone that you're going to see when you retire?

I have a fantasy for you that in retirement, these people who have the same shared bizarre experience that really only they can relate to what you went through. I have a fantasy of you having friends like post-career that were also in it. I don't know why that seems appealing to me for you. Yeah, but we kind of forget it so quickly. When people remind me about the daily grinds and the responsibilities that I had when I was in it every single day, it seems like a long time ago. Because life takes you to new places and you have to show up for a new set of people and for now a child and new responsibilities. You adjust and you get into that role and you just go with it. I think it's hard though, because I understand why you have that dream for her. If that does happen, I'll call you and let you know. Everyone's fine.

They don't need to do anything I'm saying. But what I'm saying is like, in the same way I get enormous comfort from sitting in a room with other alcoholics that know exactly what the experience is. You don't have a ton of girlfriends you can sit down with and go like, it's fucking hard to be me and have a relationship. What's interesting is I feel like you can. Perhaps not on that level and intensity, but we all, wherever we are in our lives at different stages, we go through similar things. Yeah. I never felt that I would sit down with my girlfriend and that they wouldn't get it.

Right. Yeah. Like, that's not a girlfriend. Okay. I mean, your best friend is not someone who's been through many of your life experiences post being a kid. And he gets it. But those are the key ones. Like, I definitely need my best friend to know what that

childhood was like i guess maybe it's just me my limitations last question i want to ask you is as we said 19 years you played professionally you have a week off a year where you go to phuket what an enormous hole is left in your life afterwards now we know you filled it with the baby and you had covid do you think your entrepreneurship is what's there to take up that enormous focus and ambition is that what we've turned this dedication to yeah and i think the weaving thread is a mindset that I carried as an athlete. It got me to some of the greatest moments of my career and now tapping into those experiences and applying that mindset to the endeavors that I'm a part of now. One of

the things I've learned in the last couple of years is, as I've met founders, particularly female founders, is if you look at some of the stats, like Fortune 500 companies, 80% of the executive females have had a sporting background. Oh, really? Competitive sporting background. Oh, interesting. And so when someone says, oh, you've done one thing, how are you going to do it? It's not that. It's how do I apply the lessons that I learned and make them relative to what I'm doing now? And so my mindset and the world of performance mindset, something that I'm tapping into,

that I'm increasingly interested in because so many of the female entrepreneurs that I meet have had those backgrounds. Yeah, you're very engaged with other female entrepreneurs. Yeah, I'm getting a chance to learn about them and establishing what those ideas are and passing them on to others, especially younger females. Your previous life had such specific goals. They were given to you. Here's what the goal is. How do you define what your goals are now in business? Such a great question. It's different. When someone asked me what my five or 10 year plan was as an athlete, it was like,

well, I just want to win more Grand Slams. I want to be number one in the world. And in business, it's slightly different. It's also slightly different being in my mid thirties and being a mom and juggling several things. When I was a tennis, like, although you could say I had a lot of things on my plate, tennis was that one thing. And now there's several. And the goal is not about just one thing. It's

having a healthy balance between those things, being present, giving myself time, being a little bit more relaxed and not constantly on and having to expect these high things for my body and for myself, but growing. I mean, I've been deeply curious since a young age. I love to learn. I'm a sponge when it comes to like process and grind and getting inside of something in order to achieve greatness. And so business is something that I continue to work on. And there's so many things in business that I feel like I'm smart in a few and less so

in others. And so I want to improve the things that I'm not yet well-established in. There are much more abstract goals to set. Like, I guess you could go, I want to be number one in this market. Okay. That could be a goal. That's pretty hard, but you're probably not going to go like, oh, I want to make this amount of money, or I want the value of the company to be this amount. Like your goals now are going to get a lot more opaque. Yeah. And that's okay. I'm okay with that.

You are. Because it's such a 180 from what you had. It is. Again, you could visualize so easily. It was so prescriptive. And this is up to you to decide. What I like about this chapter is that you have time to form those goals. Whereas when you started something from a young age, that is the goal. That's what you're going to. It's almost determined

for you. And now I feel like I'm in a position to shape what that is. I mean, I would love to be able to mentor and touch and be part of young females' lives, to help them grow from school or their academic to their first job, or helping them decide what is the next chapter, emphasizing their great qualities and potential. There's so many female athletes that are at this junction in sport where they want to do more, but they don't know how, they don't know where, what resources are they tapping into, what's the team? I would love to be part of those individuals' journeys. That's lovely. more, but they don't know how, they don't know where, what resources are they tapping into? What's the team? I would love to be part of those individuals journeys. That's lovely.

Did you watch the Beckham doc? I have. I love documentaries. So good. We loved it. But towards the end, one of the other players said that athletes are addicts and that's their addiction. And then when ends like when it's retired I mean then you see like we keep talking about it Beckham with one mushroom at a time and it's like so crazy. Cleaning that fucking grill for an hour and a half. Yes and I wonder if you appreciated that quality by the way

Of course. I was like I looked over to Alexander I was like what? Do you see how his closet is organized? You don't dress as cool. You don't have the tattoos. At least you can fucking clean like him. I mean, he's British at least, right?

He is British. Yeah, that's halfway there. Yeah, I mean, there's still many things. Like I put my left shoe on first. Little tits. Habitual. Yes. All these quirky little things.

What's the most preposterous part of your old routine? Could you tell us the most embarrassing one? Oh. Did you have to turn a faucet on and off three times or anything weird? I didn't step on lines like when I could avoid them. Okay, good. I had my little routine in between points where I'd look at my strings, kind of like get my strings together. It was always, I did it 10 times or 10 strings or something.

Oh, I want to go back and watch this. It was like my little routine in between the points. But I think a routine like then becomes a habit and then just becomes, I can't live without doing this. But did you have like, I'm going to lose a match if I don't. Putting your left shoe on first is very specific. That's the kind of thing I like. You appreciated that one?

I did. The weirder, the better. I think that addiction thing was very accurate. Absolutely. Well, and most specifically, I think if you look at what an addiction is, it's using something externally to regulate how you feel internally. And that is the ultimate display of that. Yeah. In your case, like I'm going to control this stupid fucking bowl.

And that is how I will regulate everything emotional and internally yeah but there's been a lot of letting go which i think is a good i mean at least that's what i keep telling myself it's a good it'll probably come back up i'm sure when there's a bully in your kid's school yeah the old competitor will come up okay then the last thing i'm going to say is in your many entrepreneurial endeavors, the one that I don't know how you had the foresight to get involved with in 2014 is Supergoop. Supergoop is

the greatest sunblock of all time. I agree. It's fantastic. Oh, right. We can't call it sunblock. Sunscreen. I can't tell you. I enjoy putting it on more than like a moisturizer. It's the only one I've ever wanted to use. What a great plug for them. I have nothing to do do with them i don't own stock in it but uh it's a funny story oh tell me it was the first investment i ever made really wow yes all the

previous brand partnerships it was just like an annual deal retainer you know you get your check at the end of the year but you took equity yes This is the first time I had equity in the company at the time when they had less than 10 employees. Wow. And I almost knocked on Holly Thagard's door, who's the founder. And I just said, this is the only sunscreen that just doesn't get in the way of my sweat. And I don't have to rub my eyes and my eyes don't itch. And I said, listen, I don't know what position you're in financially. I don't want any money from you. I want to help you grow. I love your product. I've worn it for almost a year now. And if there's any way I can help grow this message. And she said, the only message I want to grow is that skin cancer is preventable. It's the one cancer that is preventable. And the way she positioned it was that, imagine that we had a cream to prevent breast cancer. Yes, that's so true.

And it completely changed my perception, and we got into business together. That's awesome. It is such a good product. Yeah, it's the only one I'm really willing to wear repeatedly. I fucking love it. It's so silky. I didn't know.

Here's what's confusing about it. She said silky. Yeah, it's silky. It goes on smooth. I think it's silky. I just didn't think that I'd hear that from you. Yeah, very silky. Yeah, it's silky. It goes on smooth. I think it's silky. I just didn't think that I'd hear that from you. Yeah, very silky. Okay.

Ironically, I'm also kind of obsessed with Victoria Beckham's face moisturizer that has a tint in it. These are these little flavors of me that I have. Wow. Okay. I'm learning a lot more. But I'm going to go even further with Supergoop. They should give me some equity. Okay.

If you look at the top toothpastes, personally, I'm a Crest 3D white guy. I like it. It's my preferred toothpaste. Do I think it's three standard deviations above the next best one? I don't. I think it might be at half standard deviation above. I mean, we don't even know what's in it probably. I don't know and I don't care.

My teeth are proof that it works. But I would say this super goop. It's like four standard deviations above second place. Right. I don't even know what second place would be, but yes. But it's astronomically better. It's like Sean White's old runs in the halfpipe. You're like, well, these guys aren't even doing the same sport as him.

Are you sure they're not paying you for this? Don't you think they should be? I mean, they're going to send you a nice gift package. I am so passionate about Supergoop. You know this about me, though, right? I'm going to tell Holly after this chat. I don't think I knew you loved it so much. I mean, I love it.

I ordered like five at a time. Whoa. And I hide them because my family likes them. You're going to get like a six pack. Okay. I like the big, you know, they have the big ones with the pump. They have a family pack. Yeah, that one's gorgeous.

Daddy Long Legs. Can we rename it? Can I have my own line there called Daddy Long Legs? You kept bringing up Colgate. What are you? Crest? Crest 3D White. And I do think there's a toothpaste that's for standard deviations. And it's so funny, the toothpaste she likes.

I don't want to be disparaging about any brand. You shouldn't get to toothpaste. Because I had to give an example of Crest. Yeah, and I couldn't not then think about the toothpaste. Take it somewhere else. Yeah. I don't want to say anything disparaging. It's the best toothpaste.

I may have just looked over to the sink. Because it's like literally inside the room to see what toothpaste is in there. She uses fucking baking soda toothpaste. Arm and hammer brand. Stop laughing. Her teeth look pretty good. Thank you. That's because your skin's brown and your white teeth pop.

You know you're getting a bump from your darkness. I mean, sorry to all other toothpaste, and this is gross for all you guys using other toothpaste. Every time I use other toothpaste, I get sometimes this weird stringy stuff in my mouth. What? And also, I get

mouth ulcers. It's the only toothpaste that does that because it has baking soda. Right. Anyway, give it a try. Report back. Maybe that will be your next investment. Sounds like it. They've been in the market for quite a while.

Okay, well, this has been a blast. Thank you for this session. Yeah, this was fun. It's so fun. I would have never in my wildest dreams been watching you play tennis. I will one day probably chat with you about toothpaste and super cool. I did not think we'd go there either.

I appreciate the curve ball. We take it all over. Is there any product you don't represent that you think is just stunning? What outfit are you wearing? Because you look really nice. Thank you. Thank you.

Is it the row? My God, you're so right. Shoes are the row. I know the row. This is actually the row. I know the row. This is actually the row. I really dressed it down today. It's the minimal. Mixed messages.

What are they calling it now? Quiet luxury. Quiet luxury. I actually hate that phrase. I liked it because Kristen just told me I was accomplishing it in New York. Oh, she did? Yeah, with my Burberry sweatshirt. Yeah, I have my Burberry sweatshirt.

I love her so much. Yeah. That's actually the opposite because... I'm now remembering she didn't say I had it. She was explaining her outfit. Oh, okay. That makes way more sense. Because yours is so clearly Burberry, and the whole point is that you don't necessarily know the brand.

It's quiet. Subtle, subtle. Subtle details. Alright. We did it. I hope you have a really fun evening away from your child and a driver. You'll get a drink. Find your way to a drink.

Get six or seven drinks. Be well. Thank you so much. Thank you. Next up is the fact check. I don't even care about facts. I just want to get in your pants. All right, let's start. Okay, we're in.

Happy birthday. We were gossiping. I don't want to make anyone feel like they missed out. But believe it or not, there is even stuff that can't be said. That's true. We even have another layer. Who could believe it? Yeah. Because we're so open.

Sure. It's almost your birthday. Okay. Well, hold on. We have stuff to go over. Okay. We had eventful weekends. Okay.

Right? Yep. Let's start with a trip, a best girlfriend's trip to the desert. Yes. I took a trip with Callie. We did a did did you drive in your no callie drove she did what kind of car does she have she has a hybrid electric hybrid volvo okay you should have taken it's a really nice i know it's a really nice it is a nice car

but it is not a c43 yeah well she well, she wanted to drive, I think. Okay. Well, yeah, she's getting away from that baby. She wants to feel independent. Yeah. Well, yeah. So Callie was trying a first night out. Yeah.

From her little one. Yeah. And so we did a one-night trip to Palm Springs. We stayed at a fun hotel, and the way there we went to the outlet mall. Which I cannot believe there's a Burberry outlet. I didn't think those brands had outlets. It's really

rare. Yeah, the legacy whatever we what do we call it? Luxury brand. LVN. What are the other conglomerates? I'm impressed you knew that. What one does Francois own? Does he own LVN What are the other conglomerates? I'm impressed you knew that What one does Francois own? Does he own LVN?

Francois Selma's Francois? Yeah He owns that? Oh he owns the whole group No I think he's accumulated What's it called? It's not LVN

YSL No that's YSL No, no, that's YSL I think there's another letter in it. Oh, maybe. See what you see. See and be seen. It's getting confused because it thinks I'm talking about

Louis Vuitton. You're talking about Salma Hayek's husband? Yeah, Francois what? Kiering? Kering? Penalt? Penalt? LVMH. LVMH.

There we go. LVMH. Okay. Hermes. Louis Vuitton. A ton. He owns Celine. Wait.

It's him? I can't believe. Yeah. He owns the biggest luxury brand conglomerate in the world. Hold your horses. Okay. He's the CEO luxury brand conglomerate in the world. Hold your horses. He's the CEO of K-Ring. K-Ring? Yeah, I don't see his name.

K-Ring's also a luxury company. Okay, so he's not LVMH. Okay. So K-Ring owns Gucci. Who? Balenciaga. Oh. Bottega Veneta. Bottega Veneta, YSL, Creed, and Alexander McQueen.

And I think Celine. Don't make him look up more stuff. I can't pronounce any of these words. Okay, so he owns another. Gucci. Keurig. Keurig. Keurig. Keurig. Keurig.

Keuring. There's an N. How do you spell it? K-E-R-I-N-G. Keuring. Celine is owned by LVMH. I just saw that. Oh, okay.

Anywho, yes, luxury brands galore. Yeah, and what percentage would you say the savings are? Is it half price? Is it 10%? Is it 30? It depends on, like, these shoes. So I'm wearing new shoes. Yeah.

They're Prada. There's a Prada outlet there. Wow. Sky's the limit. LVMH. Actually, I don't think it is. I'm going to tell Francois to buy Prada. Oh.

He's got to buy Burberry so I can get a discount. Wow. You guys are that close? No. But I did hang out with him in Paris and he did offer, he said, any store you want to go to of mine I'll give you a code and you

can get. It was a significant percentage of jobs. Wait, then yeah, you need that. So he needs to own Burberry so I can get the code for Burberry. Well, Gucci, I have shoes. Ugh. I could have had so much savings. Yeah, I have yet to find an item at Gucci that's like calls my name yet. They don't have much like street wear. Loafers.

Loafers. Yeah, I don't like loafers. I like clunkier stuff. Yeah. I love a loafer. Okay. Yes, it has Burberry and a lot of it is like last season stuff. Oh, I wouldn't know.

Or other seasons, same. Other previous seasons, so it's discounted. And then sometimes there's additional savings. Look, it's all still expensive because it's expensive brands. Yes, yes. But it is much cheaper than buying it off. I wish they did this with cars and motorcycles because that's my thing. I wish there was an outlet mall and you can go like, oh yeah,

they're selling Ford Raptor R's for $45,000 over there. It's like used car dealerships. That doesn't do it for me. But that's kind of similar. It's not. It's not similar. It's brand new. Yeah, you're right. The used market's the used market. Yeah, you're right because there's a used market for clothes

as well. RealReal. RealReal, that's right. Wow, you know so much. You knew kind of LVMH, and you do know RealReal. And I know Francois. Yeah, that's, yeah. This is kind of a ding, ding, ding, because Maria Sharapova, that's who this is for. Oh, perfect. Is a fashionista.

She was wearing. Head to toe. I think she was wearing all the row, or she was at least wearing. Head to row. She was adorned in Head to Roe. Speaking of, that's why I'm kind of like, is Francois going to give you a discount? Because you dated Ashley and she doesn't get discounts. That's probably more reason to not get a discount.

Although, no, not all my previous. If Carrie owned the Roe, we would have a discount. Yeah. And if Brie owned the Roe, we'd have a discount. We. And if Brie owned the row, we'd have a discount. We'd own a discount. We would own officially a discount. Wait, fuck. That's really true.

Yeah. I wish Carrie or Brie owned the row. Yeah, that would be. I'd be so excited for either of them. They both deserve it. Yeah. Maybe they'll start a fashion brand. Carrie would be great at it.

She's very entrepreneurial. Oh. Yeah, she owns an insurance company and she's on it. Yeah. She even hit me up. She's like, Ted Oh. Yeah, she owns an insurance company, and she's on it. Yeah. She even hit me up. She's like, Ted Seegers, let me know what insurance needs you. Oh, that's great. She got right on it.

I'm like, I don't have any employees or anything, so. That's great. Yeah. Unfortunately, I don't need her services. I know, for insurance. I know. I know. Anywho, you get to Palm Springs, you do some shopping, and are you guys shopping soulmates

in that you both want to be in the store the exact same amount of time? Because I feel like inevitably some person wants to be there longer than another person. We're really good at it. You are. Yeah. We've been doing it, I mean 10,000 hours plus together. Yeah, that's your hobby. That's your me in the sand dunes. Man, I wish

I had dated in the time of like the peak of my mall era. And I could just walk around with my boyfriend at the mall. My favorite thing was going to the 12 Oaks Mall with five boyfriends and cruising around and meeting a group of girls and then like eating at Burger King. Like I made out with a girl in the Burger King bathroom once at the mall. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was so fun.

But I mean more like I had a boyfriend then, and then that's how we hung out. Like, I guess what I'm saying is I wish I could go to the mall now on a date. With a partner. On a date. You should suggest that. It feels like they'd be like, you're a kid. That ship sailed. Yeah, and then now, like, what? We go into Hollister, and then he's waiting outside like my dad.

Oh, you think he was just waiting in the car to pick you up? Yeah. Okay, that's not much of a date. As much as a ride to the mall is what you're looking for. Can we go on a date to the mall? And you don't have to come in because I know you don't. In fact, don't. Don't come in.

I'm just going to end up annoying you because I'm going to be in there forever. And you just sit in the car and enjoy. Listen to music. Watch something on your iPhone. Yeah. You like to watch movies on your iPhone? Maybe that's how you start the whole conversation. Hey, Mark, do you like watching movies on your iPhone?

No, but you will? Perfect. That sounds great. Let's go to the mall on a day. You drop me off. I go shopping. I get so horny when I'm shopping. And then I come out and I'm yours

Seven hours later Maybe I'll try it out Okay Tell me how it goes But nothing we want to say I feel like that ride I know you want us That's okay there was none

Yeah I don't think so We talked a ton about family stuff Because I have a family thing happening right now. I don't know if I'm ready to talk about it. Okay. Well, I don't know. I more am afraid to talk about it because I don't know if they want me talking about it. Totally fair.

Yeah. Oh, but I do want to give you credit. Okay. Fine. I'll say. Okay. My grandfather's in the hospital. Fine. I'll say. Okay. My grandfather's in the hospital. Yeah.

He broke his hip and he had surgery and it's been a whole like kind of. It was really scary for everyone. Yeah. He hit his head and so there was blood everywhere and like the ambulance had to come. And he's, you know, he's really old And it's kind of like any day, you know, we're already like, I don't know, any day. And then this feels like, oh, it's definitely the end. This is the insane cruelty of all this, right? So, like, Barton, you'll remember this story.

Listener advisory, what's coming next. So, you might want to skip forward 30 seconds. I'll try to wrap it up in 30 seconds. So he's dying. He is in hospice. He is in a hospital bed in their room, my mom in his room. And my mom's like making them breakfast in the kitchen. And she hears, hon, hon, you're going to want to come in here.

And up to that point, his testicles had swelled up so huge. She said they were like grapefruit. And somehow they just ruptured and there was blood spurting from the bed all the way up and hitting the ceiling. And you're like, well, what do we do? You're in hospice. So technically, you're not allowed to get any medical service at that point that prolongs your, you've already declared it. I know. Like, what should we do?

They end up, same thing, you know, ambulance, huh? Well, now we probably have to pay for it. I don't know about insurance because it's hospice. We have to ask Carrie. You will have to ask her. Let's get her on the phone. And then get rushed there and end up getting this procedure to stop the bleeding and blah blah blah blah you know in retrospect she and i both thought out loud like that might have been the that might have been the

time to just let because i apparently bleeding that's kind of a peaceful way to go really yeah from your balls into the ceiling though well sure you're like you're seeing your virility right before you die wow it's hitting the ceiling that That's impressive. No, you can't. I know, I know. That's the thing. If it was somewhere else, maybe. No, but you can't. You can't, as a loved one, see that happening.

And not stop it. You can't. I know. And you think you're prepared. And you've already said we're in hospice. We already know we're counting down the days until you die. But then this weird thing pops up. And then you're kind of like, well, now what?

What's the game plan? As I've said in the past, the part that's the most uncomfortable for me, other than losing a loved one is just the anxiety of what is the right course of action? What's the most responsible thing? What's the most humane thing? What's all these things. And you just, it's so unknown and the hits keep on coming. But we both concluded, cause it got worse after that. It became less pleasant for him he was rotating through these you know positions on stuff so we were both like huh that might have been you know yeah in retrospect so my dad called or my dad sent me a text and said call me when you can

which is and we were about to start flightless bird and i was like oh god okay and and of course that to me is bad news and so when i called i was expecting just he died then there's so many feelings of like guilt so much guilt mixed in with all this because also what hard one i think for people to say out loud is like also sometimes relief well exactly so when the phone was ringing i had already established like okay he's calling to tell me that grandpa died so i'm like waiting for him to pick up and all of a sudden i got this like crazy rush of fear what if he's calling me to tell me somebody else has died like what if something else really bad happened and so when he said,

hey, so grandpa fell down and I was relieved. Sure. That it wasn't your mom or your brother. Yes. Or him with a bad. Yeah.

And I was like, oh my God. Well, there's naturally a priority list. But, oh, like it's just, it's just so much to hold.

Yeah. Now he's in all this pain and they can't give him too much pain medication because of his blood pressure. I can't believe he had a surgery. So then that was another piece. My dad was like, I guess he's going to have surgery tomorrow. And I said, what? Yeah. But for them it was the same thing.

He's in so much pain. Right. I guess we got to do a surgery that will try to help that. And probably he's committing to never standing up again before he dies if he doesn't get the operation. But he has some hope of being able to walk. I guess. It's just that everyone is forced to make these kind of crazy decisions. Yeah.

So then I was like, well, he's not going to make it through the surgery. Uh-huh. And so then the next morning I'm waiting to hear that call. Yeah. And I'm about to go to Palm Springs with Callie, and I'm also thinking, I'm like, what do I do? Do I come home right now? If I do come home right now, what does it do?

Yeah. How's that helping anything? Ugh. And so then my mom called and said he had the surgery healthy as a horse fine yeah yeah i mean he wasn't healthy as a horse i guess i kind of took it as that when she said it then turned then at like 8 p.m she she was like he still isn't woken up from anesthesia and he has 101 degree feverdegree fever. I was like, okay, this sounds really bad again. Like, what? But then now, I mean, he is awake, and he's okay. Healthy as a horse, they're saying.

I think the medical term they used was healthy as a equine. He's okay, but they're eventually, like, he'll come home, and it will be hospice, I think. Or this is a hack. This is an insurance hack. But this is weirdly how I got my father's palliative care paid for was he had, in addition to the heart disease and the cancer that was all over his body, he also had gout bad enough that his feet were swelled up and he couldn't walk. longer-term physical rehab place where he had his own room and like this dream scenario he would have never had elsewhere with the lie that he's undergoing some rehabilitation for his feet. So in a weird way, this might end up being a way to buy yourself time where you're not committing

to hospice, but you're getting some in-house care for the rehabilitation. Originally, my mom was first breaking down the surgery. She was like, well, he won't be home for a while because after the surgery, he'll have to go to this rehab place. So that was part of the plan. Again, in my head, I was thinking, for what? He's going to go to a rehab place? For what?

So he can jog again. What? But then when I talked to them yesterday, I think they are scratching that plan. Okay. He doesn't, he can't. Like he doesn't know, he can't speak English anymore. Oh, he can't. No, he only speaks Malayalam.

He only knows my grandmother, really? Like it's, and he just screams. It's like, it's not a good situation. He's not to be out in a different environment other than his own. Exactly. Anyway, all to say, it's been a kind of- Emotional. Couple days and weekend.

But then you did something very sweet. My mom texted me and said that you sent them flowers, my mom flowers, which was really kind. Did she like that I called her Nermy? Did she mention that? You didn't mention that part. Well, it's funny. Your dad did, though, angrily. Yeah, yeah.

That's my name. That's my name for you. You put her name out of your mouth. You said it wrong, and now that's your name. Oh, mine is Nermy. So his is Nermy. Oh, great. So he and I both have a name.

Yeah. Yeah, okay, good. There's no overlap. Yeah, well I I first I needed their address I wondered so I hit Neil up um but then I was like using my worst case estimate for what Neil might be so busy and when will he get back to me and I want to send these flowers so then I just did a google search and I got their address and then, you know, so, so then I just, I wanted to get them there Saturday, which was not possible. So I put in a rush order and everything, but it ended up being

Sunday. But regardless, I then wrote Neil back cause I didn't want, I wanted to alleviate him. So then I was just like, hopefully it's this. Cause I committed to what I found on the internet and then to my relief, he said, yeah, that's the right address. That was very sweet. Well, I was thinking about how sad you were. And then I thought, well, that's Nermy's dad. She's the daughter. She's probably however much more sad. Yeah.

And you can't do anything. You can't do anything. All you can do is let people know, like, hey, I see what you're going through in life and I'm sorry that's what's happening. Well, it was the right thing because I think it really. It gave her a little spring in her step. Yeah, it made her feel better. Best money I've spent in a year then. She want to take me to Lubbies?

Is it thank you? Even more. Yeah, Lubbies or Lubbies. Lubricants. My family's not good at that. Receiving. No, we're not good at. We're just not good at that. Receiving. No, we're not good at, we're just not good at emotions. Well, by the way, that crossed my mind.

Like, is this something she would prefer not to receive? Like, is this going to break her or something? Not even break, just like, again, I only know what I know. Yeah. Where I'm from, anyone would like to know someone's thinking about you. But I don't know if there was, you know, 6% of my brain that was like, she might feel like her privacy has been invaded, that it's none of my business, or that now she's self-conscious of this thing that's private.

Those are all options. And you're just trying to make a calculated gamble that it's the right thing. Yes. Well, it was. Oh, that's good. Even though it's not conventional. I think that's why it had the right thing. Yes. Well, it was. Oh, that's good. Even though it's not conventional. I think that's why it had such an impact because people don't do that.

Like no one else is doing that. No one else is. I didn't do it. Well, that's why I'm affected. You're all suffering, right? So it's not like her sister's going to do it to her. Her mom's not going to do it to her. It's just whatever.

Whoever's out of the Padman circle, that still cares about tour. It's just whatever. Whoever's out of the Padman circle that still cares about her. It's just really, really nice. And I bet a lot of people struggle with this. Like, I don't really know what to do. I don't know if I need to go. Right. I'm already going home in a couple weeks. Yeah, it seems a little crazy to go.

Unless, I know, but I guess it would be for me. Right. But then what am I getting? Yeah. That's hard. It is. You'll be able to go see him as he's recovering in a couple weeks. Well, that's my hope.

Yeah. But like, what if they take a crazy turn? Again, yeah, I guess it's more for me. That's right. You just decide what you're gonna wanna live with and you decide whether that's gonna haunt you or not. And I don't know why

it would given you're gonna go see him in a couple weeks. Well, it's only gonna haunt me if he dies. Yeah. But even at that point, he won't know. I know. So it's just whatever weight you decide to put on yourself i know about it i'm like do i feel like you have a great you don't have a great longing to see him

right now do you i have a i have a confusing feeling there is a sense of familial piety like this is what you're supposed to do i guess a little bit of that, but it's actually more, I mean, we were so close. Yeah, yeah. That if I'm there, like, he'll know. He'll feel. Yeah. Sure. And I do want him to have that.

And he's gonna. Anyway. Anyway, so that's that. But what about your weekend? Wait, hold on. Well, my life has ended because we finished couples therapy. I know. So life's over.

But luckily, Jet again. And then Jackie independently both said you need to watch Love Has Won. Have you heard of this doc? Elizabeth and Andy have talked about it. Yeah, it's wild. It's a cult thing too, right? It's a cult doc about Mother God. Right.

Yeah, and it is so out there already It's pretty wild Really? Yeah, we're hooked I love it You know me and cult docs Yes I've yet to see a cult doc

I didn't I wasn't grateful I spent the time on Okay Even when they're not great They're so great I love them I agree I started The Curse

Have you started that? Yeah, I've started that one. Okay. What's that? It's Nathan Fielder. Oh, right. Emma Stone. The trailers look incredible.

Yes. It's also so bizarre. I haven't finished the first episode, so no spoilers. It's really fascinating. Is it reality or scripted? It's scripted, but it's shot. It's like sat Is it reality or scripted? It's scripted But it's shot It's like satire about reality show

Kind of And white saviors It's really It's good I think I mean I'm not that far in Recommend Okay I'm on it

Alright well this is for Maria Great style I'm gonna give you a couple more Oh please I didn't do any updates. One is I went to Sphere on Friday. Huge update. With Eric, Molly, Jen, and Larry trailing.

Oh, fun. That's lovely. Larry and Jen, boy, what a special couple. Nice. Yeah, I feel so lucky to be spending time with them now. It was extraordinary that place is extraordinary it's tell me everything well i just was thinking like what's cool about is it's not something you would go to once the programming inside is going to change every

time there's a concert there right and the programming is so interesting and exciting like i'll want to keep going wow it. It's wild. There's points where like they make the whole, you're sitting where you'd be sitting if there was no sphere and it's all of Vegas around you, but it's really Vegas and there's cars moving. So you, you feel like you're completely outside in a parking lot watching YouTube play for a minute. And then you're in the desert and you're in like the prettiest part of the Vegas desert and it's everywhere. And you're like, and it's bright all of a sudden.

I was thinking if you're on drugs, that's probably a rough part of it. Yeah. Where it's like you're jamming to U2 and it's dark and trippy. And then all of a sudden you're, it's like high noon in the desert. You're probably like, oh fuck, I'm supposed to be asleep. Oh wow. I don't know. Also, there was a couple clearly on mandy mdma

okay that's what jethro calls it in england they call it mandy instead of molly and it makes more sense mandy mdma that's amazing yeah this couple was on hundreds of hits of mandy i guess they were standing the entire show making out oh for two hours i don't know how they didn't fuck like i'm blown away they didn't clothes didn't come off they were passionately standing and making out the whole time but is it unsettling no i loved it no not them the experience no no there were some some more i guess aggressive kind of poppy type things that were neon-y. Okay. Those weren't my favorite ones.

But then there was just like at the end, there was this incredible, you were underwater. Oh. The illusions they can create because it's completely a dome. They make it look dead square. Like all of a sudden, now you're in a rectangle room. Oh. And the dimensions, they've got it all worked out. I don't know how everywhere you sit, the illusions working work.

Because clearly the letters have to be different shapes and complying with that point of view. So the math of it is like mind-boggling. And then, of course, they can do it where you're looking up to almost infinity. And you can't tell that it's not going to infinity did you feel nauseous at all no did anyone no and like jen and kristen were both nervous it was going to be too much stimulation for them but it wasn't everyone was cool oh fuck you want me to name drop oh sure well remember did you end up watching the models doc yeah loved yeah and do you remember who i said my favorite was there was such a clear favorite for me chrissy turlington yep yeah she's

great we went down to the floor for the last third of it i was dancing right next to her the whole time wow that's she was there fun yeah great dancer oh great she was living up to the what you wanted her to be from the doc. Okay, great. It was great. Fun. There's people on the floor fucking out of their mind. And could anyone just go down to the floor or you had passed? I don't know how that worked.

We had some help from the folks at the Sphere. They were very, very nice and helpful to us. That's nice. Yes, we were very spoiled. I wonder who else is going to play there. I know. I can't wait to go back. It's so cool.

And the fact that there's 18,000 people and that's crazy. Why do you think my epilepsy would have held up? I think it would have been fine. Okay. I do. I do. They must be semi-conscious of the strobing-ness. But there were some practical strobing-ness at any concert.

There were some light strobes at some point. And then, yeah, it was great. It would have worked out great for me as all my favorite songs happened to be at the end. And it was while we were on the floor for dancing and stuff. Oh, great. And it was great. It was so much fun.

And then, that's not even the highlight of the musical weekend. Great. So then last night was Lily's birthday party at karaoke. Yes, I missed it, yeah. And they should rename karaoke to Taylor Swift. That's it. Because it was a 14-year-old's birthday party.

So there was like, I don't know, a dozen or 15 teenage girls. And every single song that was played was T-Swift. Did you sing? No. I wanted to. Yeah. And I was saying, this is not your time. Did you sing? No. I wanted to. Yeah. And I was saying, this is not your time. Oh, that's nice.

Yeah. Of course, first song is Lily singing Taylor Swift. Uh-huh. And I start reflecting on the fact that I met her when she was a seven-year-old little girl. I know, it's crazy. And then I'm crying. She's 14.

Oh, wow. Okay. Crying, first song, crying, Taylor Swift. Seeing how excited these girls are again about Taylor. It was eras all over again. Okay. Crying. First song, Crying, Taylor Swift. The scene how excited these girls are again about Taylor. It was eras all over again. Yes. And Lincoln and Dahlia sang a Taylor Swift song. So, of course, now I'm crying about that.

Oh, wow. And then Delta and Kristen sang a Frozen song. Oh, sweet. And you cried then. Of course. Because I'm like, I'm just so happy for Kristen that she got to sing that thing with her little girl. Yeah. What could be sweeter?

So special. I did not want to go. I don't want to go to a teenage birthday party in Koreatown on a Sunday night at 6 p.m. to do karaoke. Yeah. And by God, immediately I was having a great time. And it was so fun and heartwarming. Great. Great weekend for you.

Great weekend. Really great weekend. Really great stage on. Okay, Maria. Maria. I only have one fact. Okay, great. But it is a really important one.

It's a whopper. Because it's the one that everyone in Los Angeles can't stop talking about, including us. Which is, why do we still have daylight savings when we all voted years ago to get rid of it? Four years ago now? Now this is from NBCSanDiego.com. Why are we still changing our clocks for daylight saving time in the U.S.? Back in March 2022, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed the Sunshine Protection Act that would have made daylight savings time permanent starting in November 2023, which means Americans would stop switching their clocks back or forward twice a year.

The bill was stalled in the House and it expired. Oh, fuck. However, Senator Rubio reintroduced the Sunshine Protection Act of 2023 on March 2nd to make daylight savings time permanent across the nation. Okay, didn't Californians vote to remove daylight savings time in 2020? Yes, Californians did. So why are we still changing our clocks then? Prop 7, 2018, that prop passed by nearly 60% of the vote, giving the California legislator the ability to change daylight savings time. So that's the weird trick. We passed it, but all it did was give the legislator the ability to change it. Exactly.

That's what it says. Prop 7 didn't actually change daylight savings time. It just gave the state legislator the ability to actually change it if they earn a two-thirds vote on it and if the federal government already allows it. Oh, fuck. It's dependent on the federal government? Yep. Oh, jeez.

Why is Arizona able to just do it? You know, Arizona hasn't had it for decades. I don't get it. Yeah. I hate it. It is dark at 415. Yeah. I will say, though, I've been enjoying, because I wake up kind of early to meditate, and I really appreciate if there's some sunlight I can stare at.

You're my enemy. I know. I mean, I don't want it, but I have been finding the silver lining of it, which is when I meditate, it's not dark out. Oof. Boy, do I hate it. Anyway, that's the fact. That's the fact. And it's really— Tune in's the fact. That's the fact. And it's really.

Tune in for the fact check. The fact check. I'm glad you read that. So now my expectations will be in the toilet where they should have been for the last three years. Exactly. We were living on hope and it was wrong. Entirely. Well, we have one more week of regular episodes.

And then we have some fun end of year stuff. Yeah. Coming your way. Making it fun at the end of the year. And then we have a week off. And then we have some fun end of year stuff. Yeah. Coming your way. Making it fun at the end of the year. And then we have a week off and then we're back in Jan. For a whole new, a whole new year.

A whole new year. With some resolutions. Yes. Some commitments, some new commitments, some, some reflecting on the old ones. Yeah.

We need to write down what, or we guess we could just listen. To what we said. Yeah. I wonder if we achieved any. Actually, that's kind of fun what Or we guess we could just listen To what we said Yeah, yeah, I wonder if we achieved anything Actually, that's kind of fun Maybe we should play it Okay On our first episode back Oh my god

What? Let's go out with this The first one's gonna make you jealous Oh man But I need you to rest assured that you'll be taken care of, okay? Okay Oh, man. But I need you to rest assured that you'll be taken care of, okay? Okay. Oh, Dax. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, Dax. We listening to At Last Man. I'm so glad we got a chance to chop it up. I'm going to hit you up when I'm back. Oh, dad. That's incredible. I can't tell you how smiley I was when I got that. Now here's part two. Oh, my God.

Oh, yeah. Send it over there. I got somebody, too, for Monica. I got somebody. I got somebody. And please, Kristen, much love. My soul sister. Oh.

I mean, how do I move in with him? I just need to know how I immediately move in with him. God, he's incredible. Oh, my God. So, sister. So special. Oh, my God. I love it.

He's actually doing exactly what I'd hope someone with that superpower would do, which is just, like, let it rip all the time about nothing. Just send people messages. Oh man. Love it. Oh, John. Oh,

John. You changed our lives. He really did. He's like, he's a life changing person. Oh my God. All right. Well,

I love you. I love you.