Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Megan Rapinoe & Sue Bird

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

Sue Bird is a former WNBA basketball player and a five-time Olympic gold medalist. Megan Rapinoe is a former soccer player and an Olympic gold medalist. Sue and Megan join the Armchair Expert to discuss growing up in different socioeconomic cultures, whether or not parents should let their kids win against them, and the relationships between athletes on professional sports team. Sue, Megan, and Dax talk about how impactful their injuries were to their mental games, why sports are so addicting, and how much pride they had representing America in the Olympics. Sue and Megan explain what makes a win rewarding to them, how showing emotion is viewed in athletics, and how important storytelling is to growing a fanbase. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. We have two physical phenoms today as our experts. We sure do.

Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe. Sue of course is a WNBA champion and Olympic gold medalist. Megan is a two-time World Cup champion, Olympic gold medalist, and best-selling author. They've got a new podcast that's out on Wednesdays weekly called A Touch More, the podcast. So I encourage everyone to listen to that. This was very fun.

Couples are fun. They are fun. They are fun. And they have such a great rapport, and they're so interesting. Yeah, this was very fun. Couples are fun. They are fun, they are fun. And they have such a great rapport and they're so interesting and it's a subject we don't know that much about. And they have a great Rapinoe.

Ah ha ha. In addition to their rapport. Please enjoy Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe. We are supported by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. We, of course, have a gorgeous website that we designed, and by we, I mean Rob.

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in the show. Stay tuned. He's an old transfer. He's an old transfer. He's an old transfer. He's an old transfer. He's an old transfer. He's an old transfer. He's an old transfer. He's an old transfer. Oh my God.

Are you all right? Well, let's see if I can recover. I mean, that's a big one. That's the most egregious in seven years. Yeah, it happens. It happens. It will happen. But not today.

That was Sue and Megan. I know. Athletes have to be on time. Yeah. The coach will kill you. Yeah. Oh, God, that is true. It's like drilled in our existence.

Wait, let me take in your shirt, Love and Rocket. I just got it. Yeah, that's cool. I mean, I overpaid for it, but it's fine. Okay, I was listening to one of y'all's episodes and I thought for a second we were gonna have a huge issue between Monica and y'all. I can't wait. What is it?

Because one of their sponsors is The Row. Stop. But it's not that row. Okay. I was like, it is? Is it? I hope so. Are they sponsoring us?

Everyone's eyes just got huge. I would love to be sponsored by the Row. Me too. I think the Row you guys were promoting was some area of some town where there's lots of shops. Oh, down here there's a Row. I don't even know. I think it's like an area.

It was like, visit this and this. But when I first heard the Row, I was like, oh, Monica's gonna be really upset We love the road to though. Oh The twins sponsor anyone or give discounts or give a fuck with anyone honestly. No sure don't I sure don't I've heard about their friends and family discount. It's quite Minimal Oh even a friend or a family. I think they do have it probably just for Elizabeth Oh, Elizabeth, what's she paying?

She gets 10% off. 10%? 10%? I don't, it's not 10%. Oh, it's probably. But probably. If my siblings, you have a twin. I have a twin, yeah.

Oh, it's scary interviewing two people and learning so much about two different people. I'm like dating two people. Yeah, two in life. Not really, but. Rachel. Rachel, yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's weird. You guys are frater people. Yeah, two people. Not really, but. Rachel. Rachel, yeah. Okay.

Yeah, that's weird. You guys are fraternal. Yeah. If your twin sister Rachel started, that's not a good comp, because it's Elizabeth we're talking about. Right. You would expect to get way more than 10% off your sister,

right? I would expect it all for free. Yeah, free 99% for sure. I'm coming in there, and you need to tell everyone at every store in the world who I am, and I'm just like As if it's a closet. Yeah The sister's here! The sister's here everybody! It's like a secret shopper times a million

And you get the hem but it happens that day They get it all came out They need to be on site Correct No, I'm getting everything for free Aren't they so cool there? They're so elusive Do you like elusive or are you like that's too much? I mean obviously like the row but in so elusive. Do you like elusive or are you like, that's too much?

I mean, obviously like the row, but in general elusive. To a certain extent, but sometimes I'm like, well, how do you get it? You know, I guess that's the point. It's the work. I'm on the outside. Sometimes when it's too much, I mean like the restaurant situation,

talking about with reservations in New York sometimes. How long have you guys lived in New York? Just a year. I'm from there originally. Long Island. Long Island, yep. So it's like a coming home, which is really nice. Megan always wanted to live there, so I was like, great.

You're from Redding? Yeah. Okay, Redding's a vibe. Let's talk about Redding for a second. Have you been there? He's the only person that would say that. Oh yeah, yeah, I've been there for sure. I think when you think of California,

you think of LA and San Francisco and super progressive and liberal. But Redding's kind of blue collar. Yeah. It's not what people would think of with California. No, honestly, whenever I tell people from California, they're like, cool. And I'm like, not that one.

And then they go north and they're like, cool. And I'm like, not that either. They're like, what else is there? Do you surf, Redwoods or snowboarding? I know, Redding is really interesting because it's situated right on I-5, so it's this sort of throughway all up and down the West Coast.

In the meth pipeline. Totally, in the meth pipeline. Drug use is especially historically totally rampant, especially meth, but then it's right next to the Golden Triangle, which is the best weed in the world. But also gnarly shit happening in the Golden Triangle. It's progressive in the anarchist zero government kind of.

So it's like where hippies meet no government and you're like, what's happening here? Yeah, sovereign citizens meet hippies. And then there is also traditional granola hippie vibes going on in and around Redding. I think a lot of people go there to be left alone or have gone there to be left alone. But then it's also just a very normal conservative.

And there's like this evangelical church has gotten really big up there, Bethel, which I don't fuck with it all. And they have gotten into like conversion therapy and mysticism. And it's to me, bad news bears. And it's just a wild place. You have super fun eyes. That's just an earmark. Who are we having where we realize their magic power? It's just a wild place. You have super fun eyes. That's just an earmark.

Who are we having where we realize the magic power? Oh, it was Heidi Klum. Oh. Where the eyes are somehow a third mouth. They're very expressive. Would you agree as someone who stares in her eyes a lot? Her face is very expressive. Yeah, and the eyes almost can smile or something.

Yeah, no, you tell a lot with your facial expressions, for sure. I know, good and bad. Yeah. Same for me. Or like, it could be goofy, it could be kooky. Your face betrays you a lot? I mean, yeah. I don't think she minds people knowing that. Yeah, true, that's true.

Okay, so you're from a very huge family. Huge, yeah. What did mom and dad do in Reading? My mom was a waitress for the whole time we lived there. She actually just retired a couple years ago, Jack's Grill, which is like a really cool sort of simple steakhouse bar. It was one of the nicer restaurants, but it's not like nice.

It's saltines on the table. Yeah, no like white tablecloth or anything. And then my dad mostly worked in construction. And were they born in Redding or were they part of some diaspora hippie anarchists? Not even hippie anarchists. I honestly, I don't even know. The car broke down in Redding on the way up the five. of some diaspora hippie anarchists. Not even hippie anarchists. Honestly, I don't even know.

The car broke down in Redding on the way up the five. They were in San Diego and I was like, what happened? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when they got together, they moved to Carson City. I think my mom's mom was sick at the time. They went to take care of her. And then I don't know how they ended up in Redding. I still have a lot of questions of what happened there.

And then they never left. Okay, and then seven siblings, six siblings? You need a tree. It's like five or seven. Yes! My oldest sister's actually my aunt, it's my mom's youngest sister who she raised, and my youngest brother is my nephew,

it's my brother's child that my parents raised. Oh, wow. Okay, okay. I say seven, it's really five. Who cares? I just leave it out there for people. It's a big Christmas is what I'm imagining. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

How mysterious. Oh my God. She has one sister and she's like, whoa, what the fuck is this? Yeah, that's a big old change. No, it's great. Well, that's kind of what I'm hoping to establish is it does feel like opposites attract

in a lot of fun ways. Just learning the seven writing versus Long Island, Russian Jewish father, one older sister. What's the vibe in Long Island in 1980? What movie was it? Now and Then? Oh! It's kind of like that.

Like all the houses are the same. You can ride your bike everywhere. Like pretty chill, middle class. What little pocket of Long Island? Psi-Osset. So it's in Nassau County North Shore any other famous alumni Yeah, who Natalie Portman? Yeah, so Natalie was a year younger than I was

Yeah, she switched high schools. Yeah, she did you did yeah, so we only went to high school One or two years whoa how bizarre she came in right? I left like a year or two later But she had already been in the professional. Yeah, so she came into school. We're like, oh shit. That's the actress. Okay, great We can do a parallel with Caitlin right now. Yeah, that was the episode I listened to okay best ballplayer Were people gunning for her? No, no, they were excited. Yeah. Yeah, honestly the way she is now when you're around her almost unassuming Just kind of chill same thing. Obviously was just in a blockbuster movie, if you will, and just totally chill. Yeah.

I can't even explain it. I don't want to downplay who she was, but at the same time it was like, she wore sweats to school. Yeah. Just so chill. Just another kid. Just another kid.

She wasn't walking around like a movie star in ninth grade. Not at all. And you come into sports because your older sister is interested, yeah. What's the age gap there? Five years. Same. I have the same gap. It's a lot when you're younger.

Okay, so I'm going to project onto you. Okay. Did you have this experience where in your mind you were like, well, I'm the weakest, worst at everything in the world. And then I started competing with my peers, my age, and I was like, oh, I'm kind of strong. Like, because I'd only been wrestling with this dude five years older than me my whole life.

And then when I got around people my age, I was like, oh, I'm a good skateboarder. I thought I was a terrible skateboarder. No, not really. Okay, great. But only because we had very quickly different lanes. She's way smarter than I am. Academics was her thing.

She also played sports, but sports was my thing. So we didn't have a lot of competition in sports. I probably was beating her very early. So you had an older brother? Yeah. Yeah, it's different for boys, we weren't wrestling. It wasn't a physical. I beat him up at 14 when he was 19.

It was the greatest day of my life. That's how I felt when I first scored on my dad. Oh yeah. My dad's six three, I'm only five nine. So who knows what I was then, five foot. And when I finally scored on my dad while Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, my dad's six three, I'm only five nine. So who knows what I was then, five foot. And when I finally scored on my dad while we were just shooting at the park, that was a big day.

Okay, so this would be a good advice column moment for you. Parent-wise, so I struggle with this because I have two little girls and I play a lot of things with them. And I'm always like, how much am I gonna let them? I wanna give them the taste. Don't let them win. Oh my God, really? Don't let them win.

Don't let them win. Ever my God. Really? Ever? That's hardcore. Don't you think they should feel the win once so that they chase it? No, you want them to get it on their own. Cause when you earn that, that's yours forever. Wow, okay. I'm not saying if it was basketball,

it's not like you gotta block their shot crazy all the time. Every time, go to him every time. Yeah, to come and retumble them. But no, you don't have to let them. Yeah, this actually happens. Very sad. With Rachel and I and our older like, yeah, to come and retumble them. But no, you don't have to like let them. Yeah, this actually happened. Very sad. With Rachel and I and our older brother, Michael,

he kicked our ass in basketball. He's like 10 years old and that's like more, he's probably 15 years old. He's so much older than us. You don't even know, you still don't know anything about him. He's either my uncle or my son. Yeah, and that family. One of us, so we don't know.

And we played him like 2v1. We were probably 14 years old. He was barefoot in the street. He tore his feet up so bad, he had to put like maxi pads on his feet. And he kicked our ass. And he gloated about it. And we were just like, first of all, whatever, you're fucking grown man. You're gonna beat us.

But we were pissed. Like he could very easily let us win. We were just like, no. We had to try our hardest. I mean, we didn't beat him and I'm sure we took it out on some other kids at school. Probably took it out on our basketball team. Okay, here's where I'm doing it.

This feels right. They just started playing basketball. How old are they? Nine and 11. Okay. We'll play pig. We're not up to horse yet. We'll play pig.

A, I'm shooting close so they can make it. I'm not like out above the arc trying to make it. It's not a fun game if they have zero and they're pig every time. Go ahead. Not the move. I don't know. I don't know.

I'm like trying to think, when I play with my nieces, same, I don't shoot like deep threes, off the dribble. I'm not like doing that. Can I add, she has the best three point shooting percentage in NCAA history, I think. 48.4. Holy shit. That's an impossible three point percentage. NCAA history. I think 48.4. Holy shit. That's an impossible three-point percentage.

Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, played on good teams. No, that's not how that works. No, I'm joking. I know. That's not good because you're on it. Well, I don't think that would affect your percentage. I'll tell you why I shot well in college.

So I was injured in my freshman year, basically missed the whole year. So I really only played three years in college. And the fall of my sophomore year, it's very common in preseason, you have these 6 a.m. workouts. So I really only played three years in college. And the fall of my sophomore year, it's very common in pre-season, you have these 6 a.m. workouts. So we had them three times a week. After every 6 a.m. workout,

he would make me shoot threes. It wasn't crazy, like 30, 45 minutes, but like three times a week for two months, basically, yeah, me and a coach. And then he would watch. And I'm sure you don't have the actual metrics, but how much did your percentage change just from that exercise over the year? In shooting percentages, if it goes up 2% yeah, that's ginormous

I bet if you looked at my freshman year to my sophomore year I bet there was easily a 15% job Wow I was add that Jordan never ever scored more than 39% of his two-point shots somewhere in that range We love last dance somewhere in that range. You don't need them on. We love Last Dance, but not after dating you. You can't bring them on now. We already have Sue.

You can't bring them on. Embarrassing. But I'll tell you what, he didn't take it easy on me. I'm answering your question. Yeah. He was a pain in my ass, to be honest. You know, my kids aren't professional sports-bound either. So you're kind of like, what's the point of this?

Are we supposed to have fun? Well, at what age is that determined if they're gonna be professional sports-bound or not? And even a broader question that I think is really relevant is do you think the parent has to lead it or do you think the kid has to lead it? I'm of the opinion that the kid's gonna demonstrate that that's for them or not.

I agree. You do agree? Yeah, 100%. I think that's both of our experiences. There's of course times where they're tired, or they're being little shits or whatever, and you're like, no, these are things that are important. My parents were always like, you guys lead, but the one thing they were like, you're gonna try hard. If we half-assed or something, they're like, no, these are things that are important. My parents were always like, you guys lead,

but the one thing they were like, you're gonna try hard. If we half-assed or something, they were like, oh no, no, no. We're not putting all this time and effort in for that. And there's certain life things that you've gotta teach your kids, but I think in general, it kinda shows itself. In kindergarten, we were like busting kids' ass. Like kindergarten, we're the most athletic kids

in kindergarten. Like from a young age, you're probably gonna be showing some signs of athletic talent and aptitude, just like if you were, you know. Music, anything. Yeah, exactly. But your family in particular, they were committing a ton of time. They were driving you like two and a half hours to go compete somewhere. Sacramento.

Sacramento. In the Bay Area. Yeah, so I guess when they do show that interest, you're just there to support I drive them five hours They honestly had very frank conversations with us of like if you two want to do this great We'll sacrifice our whole life for this no problem No, they were like we'll do this, but we're not gonna be dragging you through it

They made that very clear and we were like, no, we wanna do it. And they were like, okay, let's go. How did the competition between you and Rachel play out? I think when we were younger, it was in a play sense. We just played everything together all the time. I think we made it similar to your relationship with your older brother.

It was like, we made each other better because we could go without any insecurity as hard as we wanted at each other. And we played one-on-one baseball, one-on-one football, one-on-one basketball, one wanted out each other. And we played one on one baseball, one on one football, one on one basketball, one on one. Like we played one on one. Ghost runners go hard. I love a good ghost runner. You're batting and running and hitting all at the same time. And we didn't really have that jealousy of each other. We more so were like, we're playing this together. We always

played different positions. We went through different times where like, she was a lot better than me. Pretty much until midway through high school. I feel like I hit puberty kind of later. She was always much better and more confident. Midway through high school, maybe like my junior year, I feel like I grew and grew into myself. But we were both great.

The best two of your team in high school? Yeah, of our team. How about when you went to Portland? Portland was a little bit more difficult, honestly, for both of us. We both had a lot of injuries. Rachel was severely anemic her freshman year and she didn't know it and it was undiagnosed.

So it was kind of like a shame on her thing of like, you're not working hard enough or you're not fit. But really she was severely anemic. So all through her first year, it was really difficult. And were they able to treat that really quickly? Yeah, she had to get iron infusion. She was in like the cancer ward, getting like bags of iron.

Yeah, it was really crazy. Her levels were at like one and two, her hemoglobin levels, it was really bad. She actually went a season before I did. So I deferred my first season because I was playing in the Youth World Cup. So she played a season before, and then I came came she was really struggling with her anemia. I was playing and then my sophomore year and junior year I was out with knee injuries.

Her junior and senior year, sophomore and junior year, she was out. So we really only played together basically our senior season which was great. She played forward and I was a winger and we had a lot of fun together. But it was hard because we were kind of parallel pathing was a winger and we had a lot of fun together But it was hard because we were kind of parallel pathing these really difficult things and we were trying to figure ourselves out and had no language to do that We're twins and the world's comparison when it comes to twins is Difficult no matter what you're always gonna be compared to each other because it's like how are the twins? How are the babies? It's such a story for people totally want to know everything

Yeah And so it was I, hard for both of us in ways to really understand and navigate that. And now, like 20 years later, we're starting to talk about it, so it's good. That's good. Well, you're like a married couple in that you have a shared identity,

way more than just normal siblings do. Totally. How does that compound coming out, does it? Well, it compounded it because I outed us both to my mom. Oh! Let me tell you how I compounded that. Oh, okay. Yeah, honest.

You put it in the compounder? Yeah, I have a tendency to be spontaneous in the best of ways, but it's also really impulsive, so I'm working on integrating that. Also, just what if your mom asks you, is Rachel also getting you it? It's your eyes. Your eyes. Your eyes did a whole thing?

I think it was your mouth too this time. Yeah. Came right out of my mouth. I just honestly thought my mom would be like, well, obviously we know. When I figured it out for myself, I was like, oh my God, this is kind of embarrassing, Megan. This is really obvious.

So I didn't really have the struggle with it. And so when I told my mom, I think it was just hard for her in the beginning. This is not the dream that she saw. Not that it was bad, it was just, she was like unprepared for it. And I was like, well, Rachel's gay too. Obviously this is fine.

And we're both doing it. Oh my God. Fine, it's normal. That was tougher and I think she struggled with it a little bit more and she was kind of struggling with her religious views and she was kind of struggling with her religious views, and she was in this sort of evangelical, fake progressive church that was honestly just kind of hateful

and really conversion therapy vibe. So I think she was really struggling and struggling to find herself, and then I outed her to my mom. So I'm really sorry, Rachel. I'm still sorry to this day for that. Well, my intuition would be that you would come out to Rachel first, and then also I could see

where you'd come out to her last because of this shared identity thing. Yeah, it was almost like we were kind of figuring ourselves out at the same time. It's like when you're so close, you can't see it. And so we were both doing it at the same time, and it was confusing, and we both went to college for the first time, and it was like we were in Portland,

it's so progressive compared to Reading. Everything was just new, coming from such a small place. Is it interesting for you that you had this shared identity and in some ways you two have a shared identity, also very public shared identity. It's like in some ways you've hopped. Yeah, I know. How does that?

Yeah, I know I'm codependent, I'm working on it. I'm a serial monogamous, I know. But we just have I'm codependent, I'm working on it. I'm a real monogamous, I know. But we just have patterns, right? Yeah, totally. We talk about this a lot, I think especially since we've both retired. I think when we were both playing, it was just naturally separated.

Now we have to work really hard to have separate realms, and it's been hard, and we're figuring that out. It's really only a year into both of us being retired. No, this seems like one of the most dangerous situations possible, because I have a few friends that are either married to professional athletes, or I know a couple. Almost universally, retirement's rough for so many reasons, and maybe you'll tell us about them. But if you just take the schedule, your whole life is scheduled.

And has been for decades, and then it's not. That's so disruptive. Very. I know, honestly, we just interviewed Alex Morgan recently. She also retired. And she brought up this one element about showering. So to really make your point about scheduling, when you're an athlete, your shower is built in.

You're showering after the game. You're showering after practice. You really don't have to think about showering. And now, all of a sudden, it was like 24 hours are going by and I'm like, I haven't showered. So even down to the shower, it's disruptive and this change is disruptive.

And you build on top of it, or many athletes build on top of it, then their own weird routine that is kind of superstitious and control oriented, right? So it's like also this other thing was scaffold on top of it, but the foundation has disappeared. So now your own little weird rituals too are probably changing.

Yeah. It's like, you kind of have to be a little psycho to be a professional athlete. You have to have that routine. The routine is great cause it's so structured, but it's also really unhealthy in a lot of ways because you're forcing yourself to do the exact same thing every day.

They disguise it with words like discipline. Right. Yeah. But it's really like crazy. Yeah. It's control. Oh, very. What I would imagine is it's a great distraction from your whole life.

Like it's a bubble you enter at a certain time of the day. Totally. And you can only focus on a single thing and ignore all the childhood stuff. You're rewarded for things that aren't necessarily going to help you in your personal life. Yeah. I feel like when you retire, you have to come face to face

with that in a big way. Or at least I did. Yeah. And then the other thing I hear is really disorienting is being the member of a team. I think from the outside, I remember I watched a great doc on Brett Favre and he got very depressed after retirement and all these things happened. And people would think it's like, oh, they missed the attention.

And it's like, that's not it at all. They miss a purpose. They miss the team. I hear is the big thing. Very safe on a team. I always say teams are so interesting because you will simultaneously know who your teammates are dating. For us, I'm like,

I know when my teammates have their period, who needs a tampon? And then at the same time, I don't even know if all my teammates had siblings. I don't know if I know their hometowns all the time. So yeah, you're like simultaneously so intimate and then also not. But it is really safe because that intimacy is automatic

Once someone comes on your team, that's it You are in lockstep you got each other's back if they got traded the next day You'd be like see ya and you wouldn't think twice Oh, it's a shared goal and yeah, it's like driving the entire and it connects you in these really wonderful ways But I think to your point when you don't have that it's been such a safe place. In some ways, it shows up as family. By the way, even with all this intimacy, the differences, you do have very real relationships with your teammates, too.

The ones you click with do become family. Whether it's the end of a season or retirement, all of a sudden you go your separate ways, and then you just might not see them for months and months and months. Yeah, this is the most literal manifestation of in-group, out-group tribalism, which is like, you're a team, you're a group.

It is you against everyone, not even figuratively. It's you against the world. And how about when they depart and you see them again as a competitor? Oof. That feels awful and sad. It's not. Really?

Yeah, if anything, if it's someone you're cool with, you can't wait to go out to dinner with them. And then when you're on the court or the field, whatever, you just do it. You compartmentalize very well with that. This is exactly the thing that you were talking about that maybe isn't great for life. This level of being able to compartmentalize to such a degree is great in sport, but in life... Tough. Not great. Not so great. It just doesn't work in life that way. To compartmentalize your emotions and the things that you want,

you have to ask different questions. Even to your point about attention, it's not necessarily the missed attention. It's the very clear value structure for yourself of like, where do I find my worth? In sports, it's like if you're doing X, Y, and Z. It's a meritocracy. Yeah, it is a meritocracy like you know I have to do this this this this in this in order to do this and then if I do that

then I'm gonna be valued and I feel good about myself and everybody else feels good and then when you stop playing it's like well where do you find your value my sister asked me that the other day. How do you even evaluate yourself? Yeah she was like where do you find your value? I don't know. I literally was like, I don't think I know yet. Because what is life? Assists and goals. Yeah, I'm like, I don't really know. I'm starting to figure out what kind of things I like

or even just our relationship to working out and our bodies. Those questions have always just had answers. And now it's like we're having to answer all these questions. And for us, we played for a long time. So it's also coming at this time in life. You're 43, about to be 44, I'm 39. It's already the sort of second coming of the existential crisis anyways.

And so it's all coming at that time. And now you're like, well, what even is life? You guys should remodel an apartment and have two kids right at the same time. We did the apartment. The kids were holding on for now. But the other part that I would just add to that is, for me especially, you go from never having your needs in the forefront. I got very comfortable like my needs don't matter.

The team's needs matter. As long as I'm servicing that, this machine works and then my value gets shown. Right. And then I get rewarded. And then you go into your real life and you're like, I have to tell you what my needs are? How do you do that? How do you do that? How do I do that? What are they?

Yeah, so at 43, well, I retired at 41. I was like, how do I tell even Megan what my needs are? I don't know how to do this. Are you guys in couples therapy? Oh, yeah. With Orna? No, I love the show though. We do love the show.

We love it. The hair. I don't know how that disheveled and that perfect all at the same time. I'm like, is it wrapped up and braided? It just comes in with something new. I wonder if there's a method though. I wanna see, is it like a big, wild, like a pizza dough, like do you whap,

and then it just. Sometimes she just has one part of her hair. Yeah. It's always perfect, never been the same way twice. Nope. Oh, so true. Oh, we love a couple's therapy. There should be an Instagram account for Orna's hair.

Oh my God. If there isn't already, I've never searched. We gotta talk to Netflix about that. Exactly. We gotta talk to him. Okay, so you're coming from a much different childhood than you are. Maybe use names for people who are.

That would have been smart. Sue and Megan are coming from much different childhoods. For our listeners. I'm not talking about Monica. Yet it's funny as I read your guys' path through high school and then college. There are these weird overlaps. I would imagine there's this confusing amount of shared experience and completely different experience. I even look at the injuries. Your ACL injury comes in what, sophomore year? Freshman year.

Freshman year, Sue's ACL injury. and then Megan, you start getting ACL injuries. Now, is everyone just getting ACL injuries at the time, or is it suspicious that you guys go down? No, everybody is. Everyone is. Very common. Very common. To me, that might be the hardest part of doing this.

You're mentally convincing yourself you're immortal and invulnerable and all these things. And when one of those pops up, I have to imagine it's way worse mentally than it is physically. Yeah. You're dependent on your body in a way that you have no control over. And we always talk about, control the controllables. There's so many cliches in sports. But some of them are true, and you do. You try to control as much as you can.

So maybe you eat right, you sleep, you work out a certain way, you make sure you're strong, and yet you still have no control over it. And yet you're totally dependent on it because if you tear your ACL, you hurt your finger, whatever it is, you can't play and there's your livelihood. But it really didn't stress me out till later in my career. It didn't. Because what I would hate to find out as I'm starting, like college, the ride's really just starting. Ooh, I'm vulnerable to that. Am I always going to be vulnerable to that? Can I still exert? Can vulnerable to that? Can I still exert? Can I ignore that?

Can I convince myself it's actually now been repaired and it's stronger? How does one navigate all those thoughts? I mean, in my experience, tearing my ACL my freshman year is the best thing that could have happened to me. Oh, plot twist. Yeah, it woke me up in a way. I think I was very talented, obviously. You don't go to UConn if you're not talented. But I needed something that was going to wake me up

to really put me on a track where, like, I need to work harder. It was just a reset that I needed. Physically, I was young enough, and, you know, you're a little ignorant. You're like, okay, I'll fix this. It'll be fine. I'll move on. You don't understand the magnitude of it. So you're lucky. I was 18 years old. Like, I don't fucking know. When I look back, by far the best thing that could have happened, like I said,

it just put me on this other track of focus that I really needed. And now I'm not taking it for granted. I'm actually focused on this, what people call a craft now, I wouldn't have called it then, but you're focused on your craft, you're trying to get better,

I'm doing the shooting workouts at 6 a.m., I'm not complaining about it. It just put me in a whole other place. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. We are supported by Airbnb. You know, some trips are just better in an Airbnb. When you've got a group together, especially when it's been like a while

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What a blast. It was so, so fun. And it was so, so fun. And it was so nice for all of us to be in an Airbnb over other options because we could all hang out in the living room. Cook together. Yes, be in one spot. Just getting coffee in the morning all together is so fun.

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and specific instructions for people's murders. This podcast is the true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those who lives were in danger. And it turns out convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more Exhibit C Truecrime shows like Morbid early and ad free right now by joining Wondry+. Check out Exhibit C in the Wondry Morbid early and ad free right now by joining Wandery Plus. Check out Exhibit C in the Wandery app for all your True Crime listening. Was the work to be done a strength training in a way that would protect the knee or was

it playing a different game? For me it was more mental. Basically I went from a relaxed version of myself to an incredibly focused version of myself. Okay. I could see almost getting addicted to that. Yeah, it's like a way of life. Coming out of an injury stronger.

Well, they think about for Sean White, how much of that's part of his story. Like getting counted out, huge face injury, almost dead, Olympics looming. Okay, now I have the fuel in the system. I need a story, ultimately, is what's fucking crazy about our brains. We can lock onto this story,

and it's got a heroic outcome. You can find another gear. How did yours manifest itself? I feel the same in that I am, what'd you say? Megan. Megan. No, you're dead right. You're dead right. You're dead right. I feel the same in that I am, what'd you say? Megan. Megan. No, you're dead right. You're dead right. You're dead right.

I feel the same in that I'm really thankful that happened. So it happened after my freshman year, beginning of my sophomore year, five or 10 games in. I had a great freshman year. I knew I was good, but I think that year in college against the best competition, we won my freshman year, we won national championship. You couldn't tell me shit.

I was like, I'm the bomb. This is gonna happen every year. Yeah, I'm like, I'm the shit. I'm so arrogant, my head's big. I'm just like struttin' into my sophomore year. And then got injured. Even that injury, similar to what you're saying, physically I'm like, oh, I got this.

I'm gonna get back quicker than anyone. Kind of like still in that same mindset. And then I did it again a year later. And I was like, okay, I get it. I'm not get back quicker than anyone, kind of like still in that same mindset. And then I did it again a year later. And I was like, okay, I get it. I'm not in charge. I'm fully not in charge here. I think it took me out of myself and gave me this sense. And I have more language for it now

than I would have back then. And this is how I've approached all my injuries since then. It's like, this is part of it. You don't get to control everything. You're not in charge of everything, you're not God. You do what you can, you control what you can control. You can work really hard and set yourself up. But ultimately sports, the fittest you are,

the closer you are to an injury. The better you are and the more fit you are, I feel like you're always on that razor's edge. Well, cause you're playing as hard as you possibly can. You're playing as hard as you can, you're working as hard as you can, you're as fittest. You're pushing the limits. Yeah, you're pushing the limits. You're always kind that razor's edge. Well, because you're playing as hard as you possibly can. You're playing as hard as you can. You're working as hard as you can. You're pushing the limits. Yeah, you're pushing the limits.

You're always kind of right there. That's a risk that you take. I tore my ACL. Again, when I was 30, I obviously tore my Achilles. At the end of my career, literally the last step I took, I tore my Achilles. Yeah, Achilles. Did you feel it go up your back?

Yeah, yeah. It was so gross. I was like the classic, who kicked me? I was like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. I was leaving. I was like, I'm leaving. I was already leaving. Yeah, God.

When I was young, I feel like it gave me this perspective that was just like, this is part of it. This is life. It's an opportunity. Could we call it a surrender? Yeah, definitely. Like a surrender to reality. Yeah, but there's also like an opportunity.

So I've had probably eight lower extremity surgeries, six on my knee, one on each of my hips, and each one you're a little different after. You can never go back. So that's the surrender part. It's really hard to let go of the previous version of yourself as an athlete and try to now create a new. But once you do surrender and once you get comfortable, I think,

with whatever this new adaptation is going to be, you're like, oh, it might be better. And then you get comfortable, I think, with whatever this new adaptation's gonna be, you're like, oh, it might be better. And then you get a little psycho about that. And then you get a little addicted to that. Exactly, yeah, I can see that. You have both won titles and championships and medals in different domains, be it high school, college, Olympics, FIFA, all these.

How would we rank these? And do you guys agree with the elation? Because I know I talk to a lot of comedians who we all agree, it just didn't get better than when we were performing for free at a theater without any expectation. That was really the most fun it ever was. Pure.

Yeah, and I'm just curious, Olympics feels special, national teams feel special, all these things feel special. Is there a way to rank them? And do you agree on the ranking? Oh, that's a tough one. I feel like I could rank yours. No, I don't know. The most special, special one,

because it was my first, was my gold medal in 2012. That was my first world championship. We had been in the World Cup final the year before we lost. And then obviously 2019, for a lot of different reasons, was I feel like the crown jewel in my career. But that one, because it was my first, it was special. I'm, you know, an American kid, obsessed with the Olympics since I was little.

Oh, and back to the injury part. A lot of people don't talk about, the Olympics is so stressful because if you get injured, that's it, you don't get to participate. It's not a season where you're like, oh, I'm out for a couple weeks or a couple months and I'll get back. I've had teammates that have torn their ACLs

or done something right before the Olympics and then you just don't get the chance. Yeah. It's like the Olympics. I hope you're great in four years. That better separate. Yeah. Again. Again.

And it might have passed you up. Are you able to integrate that sense of doing it for your country? Is that part of the high? Definitely. And that definition I think has changed over time as I became more educated about the history of America and what I was standing up for and just who I am in America as a woman, as a gay woman, what that means. But I always took an incredible amount of pride

to be able to represent America. It's not always the version of America that everybody else wants to talk about or some people don't wanna talk about. Certainly after kneeling with Colin Kaepernick, that was a different sense, but I always took a lot of pride in being like, oh no, I'm American too. Yeah, exactly.

This is also America. I'm representing America. I mean, you guys always had that. I feel like women's basketball just intersects with every sort of ism possible, but I always took a lot of pride in being like, well, I'm American too. Yeah. Right, right, right. For sure.

And how about for you? I'm like going back and forth in my head on what I want to pick here. I think for me it is the Olympics. That's probably the tippy top. And that's because there was no WNBA for me growing up. So yes, I wanted to get a college scholarship and that was kind of the immediate goal. But then it was the Olympics. That to me was you've made it.

You're an Olympian. You heard about people going overseas, which I obviously did. But you know, I'm not 15 dreaming about going overseas to play basketball. I'm 15 dreaming about being an Olympian. You heard about people going overseas, which I obviously did, but you know, I'm not 15 dreaming about going overseas to play basketball. I'm 15 dreaming about being an Olympian. So to achieve that, for that reason, it's kind of hard to beat, but I am jacking between what makes something more rewarding.

Is it the stakes? Is it what you're representing? Is it the expectations? I've been on teams where we weren't picked to win, and then we did. And there's something special and different about that. But I've also been on teams where we weren't picked to win and then we did and there's something special and different about that. I've also been on teams that were expected and we did and there's something special about that. I think to answer it's the Olympics. You can find pride in both because when you're

the team that's expected to win there's more pressure. Oh it's hard. Yeah yeah when you're the underdog it's like however far you get people are gonna pump. Sometimes it's just a relief to win. Like I think in those situations at the Olympics, certainly for you guys, the expectation is perfection. And so once you get there, you're like, well thank God we didn't fucking lose because that'd be terrible.

Did Monica already brag and tell you she's a two time state champion cheerleader? I did not tell them. Monica. I kept that to myself. Yeah, what's up? High flyer. I'm glad it's coming up now. Yeah, high flyer. I got you girl. Thank you. I'm your wing man. We won. Yeah, high flyer. I got you girl. Thank you.

I'm your wing man. We won back to back and the first year we were totally underdogs and it was just pure happiness. Pure joy. It was so special, it was so great. And then the next year we were supposed to win and it was like down to one point and it was pure relief. Which also felt amazing but there were two

completely different feelings and it's wild. As an outsider, I would want the first. Because the other one seems like relief is not a great feeling to chase. You know, it kind of implies that things are pretty shitty before we got to the relief. It's scary. It's just like an abatement of fear, really. You're also trying to recreate something from the year before, and that's a trap. Yeah, totally. You're like, but last year, guys,

we did it like this, and this happened. Or last year, we did it like that. And it's a total trap that everybody, when they're trying to repeat, falls into. To the relief point, there also is something special about being able to be like, oh no, I am who you thought I was, the best. Yeah.

Like, there is some, it's like, at the end of the day, I'm still an American, so I'm like, oh no, I am the best in the world. Yeah. There is something about it's like at the end of the day, I'm still an American, so I'm like, oh no, I am the best in the world. You know? There is something about proving that to yourself. And when you are on those teams that have those expectations and you get to look around and just be like, oh no, we are who we thought we were.

That is special too, but there's something just unexpected and a surprise about winning when you weren't expected. That's just a different kind of special, I think. What tropes from male sports got grafted on to female sports that didn't work? I kind of think of, we just had an expert on talking about medically how we've not basically studied women. So we find out, oh wow, guess what?

You guys are twice as sensitive to ambient. Oops. You know, all these things pop up. Yeah, they used to just like give us Ambien. And I'm like, I mean, I'm gonna take it, but like also. Also I'm gonna wake up at Rite Aid buying something. None of my male friends are doing this on Ambien. What's going on?

I'm also gonna stay up for 30 minutes, obviously, to see what's going on here, but. Try to find my place in space and time. Ambien was a crazy, that was a crazy time period in America. I never knew Ambien was real. I never knew Ambien was real. They would like give it to us on planes. People were peeing in aisles. It was, yeah. What a gross. I never had an ambient train. They would like give it to us on planes.

People were peeing in aisles. Yeah. What a draw. We went crazy for it for a minute. But do you think there's been things because so much of this famous coaching and these famous approaches, they originated in male sports,

and which ones of them are like ill fitting and have proved to be, that's actually not how we perform best. A big part of what happens and what gets overlaid is that if it doesn't look and feel exactly like men's sports, which of course it isn't because it's women's sports, then it's lesser. Everything is just automatically like, it's not going to be entertaining,

it's not going to be fun, it's not going to make money, nobody likes it, Nobody wants to watch. And it's like, that's actually just not true. Women's sports, there's a ton of similarities because it's sports, but it is a different business. It's a different fan base, different business model. Things aren't exactly the same. If you go the business route for the WNBA, a big mistake was we took the NBA CBA.

2003, I think, is when we first became independent. The NBA actually owned the entire WNBA up until 2003, and then it went to individual team ownership, which is more the model we're all familiar with now. That's how NBA is now. So WNBA goes individual, so we now have to have a collective bargaining agreement. And we basically just took the NBAs and like copy pasted it.

And it's like, oh, that doesn't fit. We didn't really get to change that until our last one, which was 2019. What was ill fitting about it? Certain ways in which free agency was gonna work, certain ways in which the salary cap was gonna work, certain rules. Well, one big one is that we didn't have maternity leave.

So like that's different. Yeah, right. And that's the most obvious and most glaring. And then there's other smaller ways in which our league didn't get to have fun, free agency. NBA, what do we all love about the off season? The free agency. Where are these people going to go? We were limited. The drama of it all.

Yeah, it just didn't work for our league. So there's like a business part to it. I think there is like a medical part, right? Nutrition. The way we lift, the way we work out. We've always been following male guidelines and we're obviously different. I feel like where you're going, correct me if I'm wrong, is are we being coached in a way? Yeah I think there's this kind of alpha dominance model. There's fun coaches. We interviewed this Seattle Seahawks coach and he's an anomaly and that's not his approach. There are ways that I talk to

other dudes that I don't speak to women that way. I just think there are differences in how we communicate and how we're gonna excel best. And I imagine you just inherited a bunch of these, whatever worked for these legendary coaches. So I've played for men, I've played for women. There's always been this unspoken understanding, or not understanding, maybe like a knowing, that like the women coaches are more emotional.

Right. And that's been a negative. From the outside or internally on the team? Even internally. Like, oh, I don't want to play for her. Like, she's just so much more emotional. Meanwhile, they're not. Men are more emotional. And throwing stuff and having tantrums

and not being able to control their emotions or name their emotions. It's just anger. But to your point, it's like I think now we're finally getting to a place where we're questioning that. Like, oh, is that bad? Right. Because women are, in my experience, are more collaborative. We do like to do things together.

Emotionally intelligent. Yeah, emotionally intelligent. And we take that into consideration. You look each other in the eyes when you talk. You don't need to go on a walk and look at other people. Yeah, I think the egos are different in women's sports than the hard men's. They exist. Yeah, yeah.

They exist. I'm not trying to say anything. They exist. But I think it shows itself differently. Yeah. And we've always used the male model for judgment on those things. And I think it's starting to shift. And you're starting to see coaches.

I'm not super familiar with what the Seahawks coach was saying, but I think in women's basketball, you're starting to find coaches that are looking to do it differently. The notion that you would have one coaching strategy for the white kid whose dad was also the quarterback at Stanford who has arrived and then now this other kid from the inner city who's black who didn't have a dad and hates male figures for good reason but we're going to treat these two the same you know one who's like had respect for authority for a good reason he had a great authoritarian above him looking out for him and another you know how on earth do you have one strategy that's

going to motivate both of these kids in the same way? And I think he's really taking into account that. I had a coach where we had a player who was dyslexic and she totally changed how she drew up plays, how she described things. I think to your point, it's like meeting somebody where they are. Yeah, I mean, is your goal to break a person

and get them to follow your strategy or is it to figure out what would help them best excel? I have a lot more respect for coaches that can adapt versus the ones like, this is how I do it, I've had success this way, you fit me. You meet me here. Yeah, you guys will come and go, I'll be here and this is my show.

I think historically there's been also the vibe with coaches that they're the boss and the players work for them. And it's like, no, we're all coworkers. Your job is to lead the team and make decisions. And there's certain decisions that are your job that aren't my job as a player. But also I don't work for you.

We're all working in an organization together. We can all respect each other and give each other the space to have different ideas or to disagree or whatever it is. I think historically with men and women's sports, there's also the added layer of sexism and then if there's sexual abuse that happens or sexual harassment or just like the vibes of it, there's all of that happening as well.

But I think even with men, just the sort of abuse that happens, they're just like, I'm gonna tell you what to do no matter what. And it's a privilege for you to be here. And it's like, no, they're here because they're just as talented, probably more talented than you are and we're all working

together to do this. Yeah like Bobby Knight throwing chairs at people and stuff it's just like well that's hysterical. Yeah seriously. Oh my god. Emotional. We did just have a psychologist on that was saying men are allowed to share their emotions but in sport that's the only place a man is allowed to cry with happiness or cry with disappointment. Or hug each other or show physical affection to each other. Yeah, they do that weird patting. Yeah, you can tell they have this little window to be intimate with each other like, oh, squeeze, squeeze.

Like, thank you. We started on homoeroticism in male sports. It's strong. It's there. Yeah. How old is the WNBA? I should know that. It's like 28-ish years. It's there. Yeah. How old is the WNBA? I should know that. It's like 28-ish years.

Okay, it's still so new. Since 97, yeah. Well, even when you were saying you didn't grow up with it, so the Olympics was the big goal, I was like, oh, that's weird, because I felt like for basketball, the Olympics isn't, but for men's basketball, I mean, I'm sure it's still great,

but for them, I feel like that's like an extra. Well, their version was more like, I'm gonna go be famous on a team, then I'll come together as this all-star party group. Money skews it. Icing on the cake to go do something for the purity of it. That was the finish line for a female. Yeah, I think the men do take a lot of pride

when they play on the Olympic team, but their decision to do it, it's totally different. Yes, they're flying there first class, and they're at a very nice place. They don't even stay in the camp, it's totally different. Yes, they're flying their first class. They're at a very nice place. They don't even stay in the camp, I don't think. Yeah, we don't. So, USA basketball, men's and women's, it's one thing. So, we do everything together.

Oh, you do? Yeah. And do you like men's basketball? I do, I'm a big fan. Who were you most pumped to be in a camp with? Like, before? Yeah, yeah. So, I'm like 23 years old, I'd never met Allen Iverson.

Oh, yeah. So I was like, well, he's kinda cool. Some of my favorite memories were just on the bus going to probably opening ceremony or something, and the whole time he was just like, name a sport, give me a month, I'll be an Olympian. Oh, that's so cool. Name it, we were like, swimming.

He was like, give me a month. Because that's how insane of an athlete he is, to be honest. Wow. And so gorgeous, holy cow. Yeah, I know. Honestly, spending time with all of them. I could go down the list, we have good times. I think what I like most about

the Olympic men's basketball team is these guys, they're all the best on their teams. They all have huge egos. They're all just like Mr. Man out there. And then they get there and the hierarchy shows itself. And I'm like, oh, I like it. I like the drama. I like the drama.

Psychologically, it's interesting. It's really interesting, because they're all good enough to play. And then you get in the game and it's like, oh no, this is Steph LeBron and KD. Or you get in the game and it's Asia Stewie. And really those two were the best. 2004 Athens Olympics is the one I'm referencing

with Allen Iverson, LeBron, D. Wade, Mello are on that team. They didn't play a lot. No. Crazy. I was on the team with Diana Taurasi. We were kind of the young bucks. We didn't play a lot. So the five of us were just like every night like what the fuck? This is fucking bullshit. How many minutes do you get tonight? Olympics sucks. Yeah, it's an interesting experience. I love the drama. I mean, I'm here for all drama. That's why I love the movie The Departed.

Forget the movie itself. Because you take like the eight biggest movie stars in the world and put them in scenes together and you're like, ooh, who am I gonna look at? Yeah. And for my money, I was like, fucking Jack Nicholson. I'm a huge Leo fan, but I'm sorry. They're in a two shot and like all eyes on Jack Nicholson.

Ooh, it's tasty. I know. I know, I'm like. We're hierarchy creatures. We love it. I like to see it all play out. Now, one of the other things I imagine, maybe you guys have thought a lot about this, because you are part owners of different sports teams now, there was the tropes of the sport itself

and then maybe the coaching and these different things, but also the spectator experience has always been very male, right? Some military dudes are going to fly in, we're going to send the jets over the thing, we're going to have some sexy cheerleaders. Clearly, the whole entertainment package is to appeal to men. And I don't know how much thought ever went into like, what would the WNBA viewers that are female getting other than the game? Is that part of the thing that's been left out?

Yeah. So interestingly, the New York Liberty, who are in the WMB finals now, they moved to Brooklyn a couple years ago, so they had to change their mascot up, and they have Ellie the Elephant. I think it's like short for Ellis Island or something like that. This mascot has tapped into something,

I think in terms of spectators, fans, the connective. Arguably, Ellie is like bigger than the players. That's not really, but... She was just on stage with Justin Timberlake in terms of spectators, fans, the connective. So it's like, arguably, Ellie is like bigger than the players. That's not really, but she was just on stage with Justin Timberlake when he performed at Barclays. Was on stage when Missy and Sierra came through, performed with Sierra. So the show, when you go to the game,

is very much about the game and very much about Ellie. People go for Ellie. And I think that speaks to women's basketball fans. If you see her perform, you'll understand what I'm saying. I must. I need to check it out. She's twerking and dancing. She'll do like a Beyonce set. She's like, this is my show.

The football team that Natalie's an investor in here has done such a great job is like, the experience is incredibly fun. And they're sold out and it's a party. And they've like figured out how to make that whole experience, not just the game, really deliver what they would want. Yeah. I think too, men's sports has not always been an actually safe place for a lot of people to go.

If you think about an NFL game. You can say the Raiders. Yeah. Yeah. Or the Cowboys or anybody else, you know, take 2016, 17, 18, and you are a queer person trying to go to the game. You're, you know, a black family trying to go to the game.

Maybe it's just not always the safest place for you. And it's very much marketed like this is who we are. It's jets flying over. It's explicit conservative patriotism. And for women's sporting events, I think this has always been true. Basically, it's like, don't be racist, misogynistic, sexist, or homophobic.

That's the rules, period. And then have fun. Bring your friends, bring your family. Be queer, be black, be whatever you wanna be, and just come and enjoy the sport that's being played. Without getting knifed in the parking lot? I, as a tall, strong white dude have been afraid to go to a lot of these games,

just to include myself in that. Yeah, it's aggressive, it's hyper masculine, there's a lot of alcohol. Drunk. It's drunk, there's people fighting. All the men felt emasculated by the physiques of the players. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, traditionally I think women's sports

has just had its own fan base for a very long time And I think as women's sports has gotten more popular over the last five six seven years People are coming to the games because they want to support something bigger Yeah, you know who's suffering equal pay issues in her own job is like, you know what? I'm going to the soccer game critics would probably go I guess they would parallel it with like, I'm gonna vote for that person because they're black or they're female and they would go, you need to vote for them on their character or this or that.

It feels adjacent to that. It's where a critic might go like, it's gotta be about the sport, it shouldn't be about the movement around it or the vibe around it. But I would argue, what has made NFL so popular is it is that, it's the same thing. It has this culture.

They're the ones doing identity politics. I'm gonna do my fan rundown. The way I see it is that it's the same thing. It has this culture. They're the ones doing identity politics. I'm gonna do my fan rundown. The way I see it is this, in sports, there's like three buckets of fans. There's the diehards, they love the sport. They're in no matter what, doesn't matter. They're doing their own stats. They're traveling to road games.

Then there's the people that don't give a shit. And that's okay too. There's people that don't like certain sports and they just don't care, you'll never get them. And then there's the bigger bucket, which is the casual fan. And I think for women's sports, we've had a really hard time tapping into the casual fan at times. And that's what you're seeing in this rise.

It's the more casual fan where it doesn't have to just be about the game. For some, it is. For some, it's not. I remember when the Sounders, which is the MLS team in Seattle, when they started to get really big and they averaged, I think, like a league best. Yeah, they're 40,000 a game. It's like 40,000 a game. They're selling it. A while.

And so I went to a game and the first thing I noticed was, okay, everybody's got the scarf on. People love a scarf in soccer. We'll get to that in a second. In group. In group. That's right. They were doing a tailgate thing.

Then we got to the game and a large percentage of the people around me clearly did not know the rules. Right. And then I was like, what is happening here? And I was like, oh, you're a part of something. There's a community. So for some it's that. And so I just think that casual bucket, who cares where they're going?

Something touched them and they're going. And women's sports is finally tapping into that. Because for a while we were just the punchline. So the casual fan was like, why do I go to a WNBA game? They're making fun of it on SNL. Right. That's all changing. I might as well go to a baseball game.

Yeah, it's cool to be at an NBA game. It's cool to be at an NFL game. They don't care about the sport either. I'm so that. I'll end up at one or two baseball games a year, maybe a football game, maybe a basketball game. And I am going because sitting outside and eating a hot dog at Dodger Stadium in the summertime

Awesome. It's just incredible. The game is so boring and slow like you You're not gonna miss shit. You can talk a lot every now and then you're like, oh fuck we're standing up. Everyone's standing up Home run It's just an event. It's a fun thing to do. Change up your weekend Yeah, and then I go to a hockey game and I'm like, this game's spectacular, why don't I watch it? It's so fast in person. And then I just went recently to LAFC and I was like,

this game is so dynamic in person and so fast. I don't know why they can't capture that yet perfectly on camera, but I'm like, oh, this is incredible. And same thing, the soccer movement is, I think the movement of movements in sports. It feels like people have a sense that it hasn't been defined yet and they can have ownership.

Yeah. Right? I think there's some of that. It's a real sort of counterculture vibe. Sounders have that definitely here in LAFC, the chanting, it's like all the football fans have been captured, the baseball fans have been captured. It's classic America sports. And this is like, ooh, it's a little subversive.

Right. I think we like that. But soccer's always been that way. So I played soccer as a kid and I hated jocks. I didn't like football players or any of that stuff. But I played soccer because it was like a punk rock thing to do. Yeah. It's always kind of had that vibe and I'm glad to see it's like carrying into the professional side. Yeah, it's fun.

It's a cool vibe with all the supporters groups and they're yelling and they got the flags and the flares and the T-Pos and it's crazy. And the scarves. And the scarves, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't know why. Yeah, there's a whole section at the LFC game. The tickets exist just for this union of people. No one else can buy them.

The supporter group people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like Mad Max. They're banging on trash cans and they sing the entire time. Yeah, it's crazy. It's quite incredible. Yeah. OK, so how long ago do you decide to start the podcast? It started during the pandemic just on Instagram Live because we were like, we know what the people need.

Us drinking. Us drinking and fucking around. That's sort of the ultimate origin story. But then we did a couple of live shows and those were just fun. Like the Women's Final Four. Tell me more, like what was this? Like a bar restaurant, sell tickets, the fans come,

and then we get up there and we kind of do like a version of a live podcast basically. With a guest or without a guest? Usually with guests. And you have a list of topics you're gonna go through. And how many did you set out to do and how many did you end up doing? We're pretty good, we'll go long.

Okay, yeah, yeah. That's kind of our, I feel like we're learning. Oh yeah, I can, yeah, I can. We're pretty good. We'll go long. Okay, yeah, yeah. That's kind of our, I feel like we're, Oh yeah, can you act, can you act? We don't know how to not go long. Yeah, same. Yeah. But we're at certain events that beg for certain topics to be talked about.

Yeah. It's not like as much leeway. We're at the final four, we're talking about basketball. We're talking about that. I missed one thing I want to talk about before the podcast. You guys met in Rio at the 2016 Olympics? Mm-hmm. Wow.

Okay, but you were in a separate village with the basketball players? Yeah, so we met at the Nike house, I think. Getting free shoes. Yeah. This is Dax's dream. He's always talking about falling in love at the Olympics. Yeah.

As athletes. Thanks for painting it in such a positive light. I think about fucking. Fucking. Well, that's what the village. Yeah. I mean. Because everyone's. Everybody's in such good shape. You're's what the village. Yeah. Because everyone's.

Everybody's in amazing shape. You're just never gonna see. I always say it's the one place you go, to be honest, to feel like shit about yourself because everybody looks. Even better. So good, yeah, like you think you look good and then you see like a track and field athlete.

Yeah. Yeah, and you're like holy fuck. And you're like, oh yeah. Have you ever done a sit up? Like what's happening? Because we're obviously in shape, but we're not worried about one tenth of a second. Right, exactly.

And that's a different kind of shape. Well, that's my favorite part of watching the Olympics is, oh, this activity gives you that body. That's fascinating. All the female volleyball players, sand volleyball, all look the same. All the sprinters look the same. All the soccer players,

like this is when we first started dating. I was actually, like I said earlier, I'm only 5'9". In my world, I'm tiny. Yeah. I'm in the back, in the middle seat, always in the car. Like always. I just took that on as my identity.

Then we got together and her teammates were like, she's huge. Yeah. She's a freak. Shops on Fursuit. Where'd you get this dress? Literally. And it was interesting because I was like,

oh, as a soccer player, you have to be of a certain height and build, because you have to run. You're not gonna be 6'8". You have to be able to run. If you can't run fast, you can't play. Right. And run forever.

Forever, literally. For 40 minutes straight. So you guys were at the Nike store. The Nike house. People do houses. Oh, tell me more. USA has a house. Nike has a house.

I'm sure Adidas has a house. Is it a party house for mingling? It's more like a place to go, because the Olympics are kind of wild, and for the athletes, you're in the village, you don't really get to see your family, they can't come in the village. So a lot of brands, a lot of different people

will have these houses, which is really just a place you can go and bring your family, see your people, hang out. They'll have events, or they'll have food, or they'll have a little shopping section, or sometimes they'll throw a party, and it's kind of these multi-use spaces that's like a landing spot. Like you're setting up here

for the Olympics kind of deal. And you were both there, who were you with? Teammates or family? I was with my teammates. Our team had already gone out. We like bombed out of the Olympics. Yeah, we lost. I think you were there socially.

Yeah, I was just hanging out. Licking your wounds and getting free vodka Red Bulls. Yeah, literally. A lot of my teammates, we weren't even in Rio for our games. The soccer travels all over, so we hadn't even gone to Rio yet. Most of my teammates, it was pretty devastating loss. We did terrible.

They were like, we're going home. This is awful. And I was like, well, I'm going to drown myself in Rio and I'm going to have myself a ball. There was like six or seven of us that went down there. It was great. So you had not met before. We're in the same agency, not the same agent,

and we both play in Seattle in our professional team. We knew of each other, we had met once. But what the Olympics really marked was like, this is dumb, we're both in Seattle, why aren't we friends and hanging out? Why aren't our teams hanging out? Right. This is stupid, and that's really how it started.

Okay, and then so you're chatting at this party, you're going, oh, it's crazy, we don't hang out, we both live in Seattle. How quickly though are you going like, I'm acting like we should be friends for this greater purpose of our Seattle kinship. Are you gonna tell them? I was dating someone at the time.

Okay. Yeah, so that. Complicated things. Dating is a, thank you. I was engaged to someone at the time. I know, I'm like dating. I was engaged to someone at the time and yeah, we were going through a little bit

of a rough patch, and that wasn't gonna work, and then obviously meeting Sue, it just became very clear that. Queer, clear. Clearly clear. Clearly clear, yeah. A four-audence. Yeah, then it escalated.

Ah, okay. After I broke up with. Real fun. I broke up with my fiance at the time, and then we started talking. Yeah. Okay. And then quickly, thick as thieves, do we become inseparable pretty fast?

You know how lesbians are all... Well, I have heard a great joke. Yeah. I do love the one joke. What is it? They already know it. What do lesbians bring on a second date? A U-Haul.

A U-Haul. What do gay dudes bring on a second date? What second date? Oh. It doesn't have to be like another gay dude. And it was like poppers? you bring a truck. What do gay dudes bring on a second date? What second date? Oh. Yeah. Cause we're like another gay dude? And there's like poppers? I don't know.

Another gay dude? Bloom? That's a good joke. Oh yeah. That's true form. Those jokes exist for a reason. When they hit a truth. Yeah.

It is what it is. Was it coordinated about retiring at the same time, roughly? It's not, right? You had done 20 years with Seattle. That's crazy. Is that a record in the WNBA? Were you the longest time, roughly. It's not right. You had done 20 years with Seattle. That's crazy. Is that a record in the WNBA? Were you the longest playing?

Maybe. Definitely up there. Yeah, you and Diana probably. And Megan, you played for a very long time as well. Yeah. And so that just timed out kind of perfectly, I guess. It did. And then collectively, do you start talking about like,

what are we gonna do now with the remaining 45 years of our lives? What the fuck do we do now? And both what are we gonna do now with the remaining 45 years of our lives? What the fuck do we do now? And both people are scared probably. Yeah, it was my favorite Derek Jeter quote when he retired. He was like, oh, I went from being an old man to a young man. Cause when you're 41 in sports, you're old as fuck.

And they treat you that way and they talk about your age and they ask you what you're gonna do. As soon as you hit 30, they're like, and get on the old retirement conversation. Yeah. Wow. And then the minute you retire, like, oh are you gonna do next? Retirement conversation. Wow. And then the minute you retire, like, oh, I'm young again. This is great.

I'm not the oldest one at dinners. This is amazing. You're right. There's a Formula One race car driver named Fernando Alonso. He's 43. In every lap that he's on TV, they're talking about that he's 43. And I'm like excited he's 43,

because I'm 49. I'm like, you go get it, old timer. Yeah. I'm like, just let him live. He, old timer. Yeah. Just let him live. He's just driving his car. Just let him live. In any other career trajectory, he'd be like mid-level right now, about to get his big shit

coming at 50. So what's interesting about that is you're in your late 30s, early 40s, but you're at an expert level in your career. But now you get to go into this, what we call the real world. And we do have an expertise that's unique. We hit that level of our career, but we're young again. And I think that's really where we are and that's what makes what we're doing exciting. Like whether it's the podcast or the other business ventures that we're in.

We have an expert level, but we're still pretty young. You have time. Yeah, that's a great way to frame it because it's very hopeful and there's so much opportunity when you're young. There's like so much to come. Whereas most people, you're 40, you're in your track. That's pretty much that. This is it. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. With the podcast, what was so, and even our production company that we started and wanting

to like get into media and content, storytelling is the most important thing, whether it's writers and their books or journalists, storytelling, what's happening in the world or storytelling and narrating around sports. And women's sports has had such a lack of storytelling, understanding, conversation, a lack of nuance. And we've lived, you say it all the time, in a very non-arrogant way, like we really are the experts. We've lived through this crazy period of basically the last 25 years,

where now we're at this period in sports where basically all the money's like, okay, fine, women's sports, we're gonna do it. It seems like it's a good thing. And now there's all this money coming in and there's all this interest and there's all these eyeballs and stories need to be told. We are really in a position.

It's like we know all the stories, we know where all the bodies are buried. If we don't know it personally, we know the person who does know it personally. We've lived it all. We've understood how we've gotten to this moment. So I think with the podcast and with our production company, we really feel like we're in this position

to like narrate all the history, but also this is how we should be talking about women's sports. This is how it's different from men's sports. Cause we also know men's sports. We're huge fans of men's sports for our whole lives. And we've had so much, whether it's the last dance or just Watching it for so long. We have so much information about it

This is so exciting for us and why we even want to do this because as you guys know It's a lot of work to like A mic and prepare and tell these stories and do this narration all the time show up half hour late. It's hard It's a really exciting time, I think, for both of us. And what excites both of us about it is we really know what it is and how the story should be told to bring more people in. Because we're like, this is amazing here. Women's sports is incredible.

Sports are incredible. It's one of the most vulnerable things you can watch someone do live is to try their very hardest with their physical body in tandem with other people and try to achieve this goal. And somebody's trying to stop you. And somebody's trying to stop you. And somebody's trying to do the same thing.

We'll talk about story. Sports is the ultimate story. The objective's very clear, the stakes are baked in. I don't watch a lot of sports, but I watch every single sports documentary. I don't think there's one I haven't seen. I love them all, because the second it starts, I know what the stakes are.

I know what the goal is. I know what defeat looks like. Sports stories are so human, whether you're climbing the face of El Capitan, which none of us can do. You can, like, understand the story of what Alex is doing up there. Yeah.

You know, or watching Power of the Dream, like, your guys' documentary, how they basically saved America. You understand what's happening, and you can feel yourself in that. It is so trite. Yeah, you know are watching power of the dream like you guys documented how they basically saved America you understand What's happening and you can feel yourself in that it is so trite? It's like I shouldn't even say it because it's so stupid to say but it really is so true that representation matters Yeah, it really matters. I just got this Barbie sent to me. Yeah, we saw This morning is in the USA today

They sent it to me. I was like, oh! They sent it to me and I was like, whoa. I had friends over for dinner and I was like, you guys, look at this Barbie. It's so great. I literally said that and I was like, it's crazy that I never could say that growing up. I could never say, hey guys,

look at this Barbie that looks like me. It's so powerful to feel part of the group. Sue, you have a Barbie coming up, right? Yeah, yeah, it came out. It came out! So exciting! You can go to the ding ding ding here. You brought a Barbie, she is a Barbie.

Do you want one? Yeah, I always joke my Barbie has better knees than I do. I'm like low key jealous, they made her bionic. I'm like damn. Oh, that's exciting. I need that technology. No, it really does matter. I feel like that's what's so cool about women's sports.

It's to see it be it. It's like, yeah, you're talking about gay women and black women and queer women and straight women and white women. It's like, there's a million things going on in here and everybody can find their place in it. I think it goes even beyond that because I think the hardcore,

misogynistic male defenders of male sports would probably say, no, no, golf is intrinsically interesting and the NFL is intrinsically interesting. But if you look at the viewership, it's say, no, no, golf is intrinsically interesting and the NFL is intrinsically interesting. But if you look at the viewership, it's like, no, no, you need Tiger Woods to show up. He's a person whose story we get fascinated on in a quadruple sports. Drive to Survive comes out and we learn the personalities

of these race car drivers. That was me. Yeah, same, I didn't like it before. I was like, am I an F1 super fan? Yes, she is. She is. I am. They am I an F1 super fan? Yes, she is. Because they gave us the protagonist. And then it 4X'd in America, F1. There's so many elements, but it's also like,

shamefully, I know Cheryl Miller. That's who I knew. I just know she's great. I didn't get to see her be great, really. I didn't see any college basketball games of hers. I just know her stats. And I go, oh, those are fucking wild. But you need these kind of breakthrough superstars

that ignite interest in these sports. The sports themselves aren't- Nothing's intrinsically interesting. It's all the story around it. It's all the history around it. It's all of the little things that pull you in. That's why I love the Olympics so much. Cause they show you the pre-story,

and especially how it used to be, where it was like it's coming on at prime time. They show you the story, and then you watch that person go and run around the track. Do you guys watch Sprint before the Olympics? Yeah! And I'm like, oh, I care more about this than anything in the world.

I'm locked in. Yeah. Sha'Carri, I love you. I wanna see you win. All of those things matter, and then you're invested in it. And then, yeah, I love you. I wanna see you win. All of those things matter. And then you're invested in it. And then yeah, sports are sports. They're fun and it's an event to go to.

Like a concert or a comedy show or the farmer's market or you go to sports. It's like, this is something that we're doing for entertainment. I think there's something that you always say that's like, not every sport is for every person. You said baseball was boring, but you say maybe go on time and enjoy it,

or you don't go at all and you don't love it, and you say, I'm literally stealing this for you, but it's like, but you don't shit on baseball every day. You don't spend all of your time. It's not threatening my identity. Right, you're not spending all of your time on the platform that you have to make sure everybody knows you hate baseball.

Yeah, and it has no value, and it's not worth it. And that's what people do to women's sports. So it's like, you don't have to even come to the most popular ones that you'll probably like. You don't even have to do that. But why do you have to shit on it? Why do you have to take that down? Why is it threatening?

That's the point. It's okay if you like one thing better than another. I would argue that, and I can't really pull like an exact example, but I might argue that, I'm not gonna argue this, someone might say men's tennis is more, what, athletic, exciting than women's tennis. And yet, aren't there people that prefer women's tennis?

Yeah, so it is just the preference. And then back to what Megan said. Women's basketball is a great example. We don't dunk. We have to deal with this all the time. You guys don't dunk, it's boring. You don't dunk, it's boring. Oh, that's the big complaint?

Yes. Oh, I'm not in the silo enough. I don't hate the W in it, so I don't know. I love that. But it's like, you constantly have to answer that, but it's like, okay, you don't like it, that's fine. But what she said, why do you feel the need to shit on it? Because that shitting on it has infested

and gotten in the veins of the cultural cache of it all. What's your armchair explanation for this? You could just go misogyny, great. For basketball, I have one. Oh, great. That's very specific to basketball. Okay, great, I want to hear it. Okay, so different from some other sports,

particularly team sports, a lot of men, boys, play basketball. Uh-huh. Yes, that's really. They play it on the park, they play it in gym class, they play it on their teams, in elementary school, middle school, so on and so forth, and they think they're good. And what do men a lot of times do, in my experience, is they're constantly sizing the women's basketball players up, and so they're so forth, and they think they're good. And what do men a lot of times do in my experience

is they're constantly sizing the women's basketball players up. And so they're looking like, I could do that. I could beat you. And that is their way of flexing that they could do it and therefore it doesn't have value. Yes. So that happens a lot, and I think it's because basketball is just such a popular sport in our country.

I can't even tell you how much I encounter that. Yeah, no one's mad at women swimming. Because no one thinks they're a good swimmer. No one thinks they're a good swimmer. Soccer, Megan doesn't get this. Rare, if ever. Does she have a guy come up to her and be like, I could take you?

Whereas this is like, well, if it's not an actual one-on-one game, it's a game of horse. Do dudes do that to you a lot? All the time. I'm constantly, now a lot of times it's friendly. They're not being jerks. It's like a friendly banter. maybe we're out at a bar, I don't know what it is, but it happens all the time.

And I'm smaller. Sometimes, it's someone who maybe did have a good high school career, maybe played D2, D3. And I always say, it's always my, I'm like, if I had your body, I'm like, you'd be looking at the highest paid player in the NBA. Yeah. Yeah. It's just that I don't, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Because there are six, seven. I'm not six, four, two, 12. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's just that I don't, you know? Yeah, yeah. I'm not 6'4", I'm 2'21". Yeah. Anyways. That's a really good take, how easily men feel emasculated. Definitely. And it just became the thing to shit on.

Yeah, because I had a hot take in defense of men. It was about Taylor Swift. And it was about a very common male thing to happen was, when women would find out she had given her road staff like 18 million dollars or something which is by all accounts a radical gesture we kept hearing this became a topic remember this men would be telling their girlfriends like well yeah she makes a billion of course she can give 18 million like they couldn't latch on to how cool it was she had done that I was

like why is that the reaction I really need to understand what's going on in their body when they choose, I gotta bash this. And I was like, oh, I think they're like, my girlfriend and my wife loves this woman. I can't really compete with anything she does. I'm not a singer. And now she's really generous. Well, I'd be generous too if I had a billion dollars.

It's like this weird- Did you put it down? Yes, it's like somehow they're less because Taylor had this generosity and they have to point out, well, it's not very generous. I would give someone that too if I had a billion dollars. And also another one. Yeah.

And also Elon Musk is doing what he's doing with his billions of dollars. Yes, I know. Not to say that all men are Elon Musk, but we have questions. But it's like, what is going on? Why is that the standard reaction? I've been at dinners.

We've been at dinners with close friends, and some of them are married couples, men, women. And there was this one topic that went around of who's the best shooter. And by the way, a lot of my friends are former athletes also, basketball players, the women are. And their husbands didn't play in college, but they played. I've seen them play, they're decent.

And we went around the table, who's the best shooter at the table? I didn't get picked first Despite the stats or it was well, okay. Yeah, I guess we have to pick Sue first and I just don't know Yeah, I'm not even gonna go in the Steph Curry route if you have Reggie Miller Yeah, Jason kid not even the best of the best but like would ever say, well, I guess we have to put Jason first. Because Steph Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, yeah. They'd be like, oh, of course guys, yeah.

LeBron even. So you could argue LeBron's not the greatest shooter of all time. Anyone could make that argument. And yet they would still be like, oh, LeBron's first. And I was just looking around and I was like, guys. Get real. What are we doing here?

Let's go to this three point line right now. What's it gonna take for women in general? It's like, what's it going to take? Men's ball, women's ball, volleyball, beach ball, picket? Let's go to this three point line right now. What's happening? For women in general, it's like, what's it going to take? Men's ball, women's ball, volleyball, beach ball, picket. Let's go. I think there is something about, and I think this generally happens in equality conversations,

but there is something about women getting more rights that feels threatening. And it's like, no one's taking your rights away, men. No one's doing that. That's not inequality that we're having more rights. Or the same rights. Yeah, we're just trying to get the ones you already have. Yeah.

Yes, I agree, but I'll add, if I can give my most generous good faith explanation, is these guys already feel like they can't get a woman, and they had some path in the 50s. Like, well, if I go get a job and I earn some money, I'm gonna end up with one. And I think it's a little bit more of the insecurity of like, if they don't need me, will I ever have anyone?

If I can be the most generous, I think a fear is driving it of like, well, if they don't need me, why would they be with me? Less than maybe, well, in practice, it would be, I don't want them to have it, so they do need me. But it's just hard to really figure out what's going on in the person. Like, what fear is actually happening that they're behaving in a way that's repugnant? Well, I do think there's something that's generally happening in America with the falsehood of the American dream of if you work hard and do X, Y, and Z, then you'll get X, Y,

and Z. Whether that's in a job, which is not true anymore. There used to be a path forward, and then corporations got greedy and are blaming it on immigrants that now you can't have this pathway to have a job and have a life and success because other people are taking it. It's like really corporate profits have gone up crazy. So there's that part. But then there's also this part of, oh, you're a guy. These are the things that you deserve.

You're entitled to a woman. And it's like, no, nobody's entitled to anybody else. Women don't not need men. Obviously not every woman is a gay woman. Otherwise that would be a problem. But like, you're not entitled to this other person. So what are you bringing to them? What are they bringing to you?

The relationship is just becoming more equal. Men I think have historically been told, be hyper masculine, do these things, don't show any emotion. And they are going through a crisis. Yeah. We're asking for something a little different. Yeah. And I also am kind of like, and that's not our emotional labor to hold. That's men. You guys have to take that on yourself and figure that out We have to do that for ourselves while fighting against the threat that is inequality I think men are going through a crisis I feel that and I see that and I am empathetic to that and also

Oh, yeah figured it out like under the boot so you guys can do it Yeah, and I think the needs to come from men Yeah, people who have figured it out to help these boys and you me and you Yeah, we're together doing it. Yeah You guys are so much fun. Yeah I really like you I'm even extra ashamed that I thought it was 11 because I would have loved another 20 minutes with you both What's the name your podcast a touch more a touch more? I listen to it You guys have a very, very good flow and dynamic

that's really good for this space. Thank you. We're learning. We're figuring it out. Yeah. So many questions for you guys. We're still learning. Yeah.

The interviewing is probably where, as two people interviewing one person, that's a dance we're getting. That's a hard thing. It's really hard and we've had to take the route. Two people really can't do it. If you're trying to come up with some grand arc, it's really kind of quite hard to do it that way.

Great, we're figuring that out. And then one other tip was just, we have found that too, it's really helpful that Monica hasn't saw the movie or read the book or done the thing because she's the audience. And if we're getting to Esoteric, the guests and I, she's like, whoa, you guys missed a chapter or something. Like, what are you talking?

No one's going to follow this, so we're gonna have to. You need like an outsider's eyes on it almost at times. Yeah, one time I couldn't help myself and I had to watch Fargo, season five. I had to, I couldn't stop. And then during the interview I was panicked because I was like, I don't think this is good. I don't know because I watched it

and I don't have the point for me to be objective anymore. That's a good point. And then I hope you guys will make docs. Are you gonna make docs with your media company? I think so, yeah. We got a couple of cool things coming out. We adapted a book, CLEET CUTE. The show is gonna be called Playing the Field.

Okay. Yes, our Tapscott who did College Lives of Sex Girls, New Girls. She's the college girl. Yeah, sorry, Sex Lives of College. And the College Lives of Sexy Girls. Listen, honestly, one and the same. Yeah, I'm the same.

You guys know. She's our show runner, so we're really excited about that one. And then we have like a reality show coming up. Oh good. Yeah, we're excited. Okay, so you're not gonna be sitting around. We'll be shooting schedule, schedules in your future.

We have lots of schedules. Google Docs and calendars. Google Docs. Jesus, we shall be inserted in the calendar. Yeah, literally. Maybe. Wild out here in these normal worlds. Well Sue and Megan, this has been so much fun.

I hope you come back when you have one of these projects up and running to promote, because I want more time with you guys. Definitely come back. You're wonderful, and I liked it. Thanks for having us. Thank you. And maybe let your daughters win in horse.

I think I changed my mind. Real time update. I've been stewing over here now. Lock them every time. I know where I got you. I'm like, are they really college don't know. Real time update. I've been stewing over here now. Block them every time. I know where I got you. I'm like, are they really college bound? No, fuck, that's a new situation. Give them some affirmation.

Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at. Okay, full disclaimer to the Armchairs. It would feel dishonest to not say, we attempted to talk about the election. You wanna go back? Well, no, it just didn't go well. I would say that we tried,

and of course it's on our minds the most, and that seems like the topic we would be talking about, but we tried and it just, it didn't go well. So we're gonna skip that. Yeah. And so it might be a short fact check, I guess is all I'm saying. There's really no other details going on.

It was election, election, election. Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. Couple weeks ago, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was and it's still on our minds. It's still lingering. And hope everyone's doing okay out there. Me too.

So Sue and Megan, very fun. Very, very, very fun. Oh, okay. So I made the mistake of saying that the friends and family discount from the row is like they don't get stuff for free. Yeah, you said it was small, right? Yeah, it's small.

That's what I heard. Like a five or 10%. No, I don't know a percentage. You didn't commit to any numbers. Yeah, I didn't commit to any numbers. This is what I heard through the grapevine, but I don't know it's small. Like a five or 10%. That's what I heard. No, I don't know a percentage. You didn't commit to any numbers. Yeah, I didn't commit to any numbers. This is what I heard through the grapevine, but I don't know it for sure. Okay. And there's obviously no information on that,

on the internet. Like, I don't know if Elizabeth Olsen's getting stuff for free. I hope she is. She must be, but they also, do you, well, let me ask you this. Do you think they're gifting to celebrities? No.

Or they don't need to? I don't think they gift gifting to celebrities? No. Or they don't need to? I don't think they gift. They definitely like, people will wear their stuff to red carpet things, but they don't get to keep it. They don't get to keep it. God.

I know. They should let, there's a couple people they should let keep it. Cate Blanchett. Can't we let her keep it? I would love that for her. She deserves it. I wonder who they would do it for.

No one. Wait, that reminds me. We're seeing a performance right now that is so off the charts. Good. What is it? Well, first of all, we're watching season two of The Diplomat.

Oh, nice. Which is great. And Carrie Russell. Love her. We had her on, friend of the pod, she's in the archives. She drank a couple beers, which is so cool. She's our only guest who slammed a couple beers while she was there.

Yeah, right. That I recall. Could be wrong. Yeah. She's so consistently awesome, but that's not the one. Oh! I know who I want to applaud. Okay.

Are you watching Escape from Dannemore? No, I'm not the one. Oh, I know who I want to applaud. Okay. Are you watching Escape from Dannemore? No, I'm not. Okay, we missed the boat. Oh no. Big time. And I hate to admit this, but I loved, what's the other show, Ben's other show that we love?

Severance, my God. We love Severance so much. I'm obsessed with Severance to the degree where I was like, you know what, Escape from Dannemore is probably excellent because he directed all that as well. Not all of it, but he did the same thing as he's doing on Severance. It's phenomenal.

And Patricia Arquette is like next level as this woman. And I found out a bunch of behind the scenes stuff. She gained and lost 50 pounds during production. Oh my gosh. Her look, the way it changes, she is so dialed into this person. The show's phenomenal. I didn't even realize Benicio Del Toro is one of the leads. He's awesome.

What an enigma. What is he doing? Why doesn't he work? How, I need to talk to him and understand. He works when he wants. And he works the hell out of it when he does. He's so fucking interesting. And then Paul Dano's fantastic.

Everyone's, it's a great, great show that we missed. I think because it was on Showtime, that's my explanation, but now it's on Netflix. You see, it's like, it was number two. Okay, I'll have to check it out. I've had this, I was about to say it must be so rewarding, but I've had this with Chips, where all of a sudden Chips was climbing

up to number one or two in movies, and it come out years before, it's such a fun thing. I wonder from Ben's perspective, what it's like to have this show that was out 10 years ago that's like number two on Netflix. Oh yeah, how fun. And probably more people are seeing it now than ever saw it in its first run.

I am gonna watch it, I need a new show. To be able to play Alabama Worley at one point in her life, you don't know that character, do you? True romance. True romance, Alabama Worley, unbelievable. Ooh, and now to he play this character? What a gap between those two characters. Also, we haven't had her,

but we have interviewed David Arquette, her brother. And that didn't help her. He's in the archives. Yeah, he's in the archives, check him out. Just like Carrie Russell. Just like a minute or two, yeah. A minute or two with Carrie Russell and. Oh right, they're all.

Actually, that David Arquette interview is a beautiful interview. It is, it is. He is a very special person. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna watch that. Wait, why'd we get on subject of Friends and Family Discount? Elizabeth Olsen, Kate Blanchett.

Actors that should get free Roe merchandise. Yeah. Yeah. So add Patty Arquette to the list. I think Elizabeth gets free stuff. merchandise. Yeah. Yeah. So add Patty Arquette to the list. I think Elizabeth gets free stuff. I hope so. Yeah, I think she probably does. If she wears it, might be an act of rebellion.

No, she supports her sisters. Yeah, they love each other probably. Anyway, so I don't want it to come off like they're not generous. Oh, okay. Because I don't know about their generosity. So you didn't get the real number or anything. You just, in general, you want to say

maybe it is a really nice one. Maybe it's 90%. You know, if you followed a bunch of car accounts like I do on Instagram, you would have heard Porsche recently ended their friends and family discount for employees. Really? Yes, and the number was staggering

because Porsches are generally hard to get. for employees. Really? Yes, and the number was staggering because Porsches are generally hard to get. There's not a bunch of them at the dealership. You gotta order one, you gotta wait and all this stuff. So everyone that can get one, those executives, they all get one, because they're ultimately end up being worth more. But it was in the tens of millions of dollars

that they saved on the bottom line by getting rid of that. They're like, no more cheap Porsches for people who work here. Really? That makes me kind of sad though. They put in the time, they're representing their company. It makes me sad too because also I grew up in a family

that had the GM discount, which was relevant. Although often it was the same as whatever sale they were running, but in general it was good. But I will say it's a slightly different business model, which is GM's making millions and millions of cars. Porsche's making a very finite amount of cars. True. And so at some point if you go like,

well, I don't know what the percentage was, but let's say 8% of our cars are just going to our own employees at this discount. This is untenable. I guess so. I think they decided it was untenable. That's interesting. Because I also wonder how many people can,

like how many people aren't getting Porsches that would have got them? Probably not that many. Well, right, these are highly paid German employees of Porsche. The Germans pay well. They pay their folks good. Well, no, sorry, I guess I mean like,

because like they're giving these, in their head, they're giving these Porsches away to their employees. Yes. And it's not good because other people. It can't be a business that just builds cars for their employees at no profit. But are people who would buy a Porsche, not their employees, regular people who would buy a Porsche,

are they not able to buy the Porsche? Well, I think it's that it's a supply issue with Porsche. Okay, so yes. If it were like Tesla where they can make 100,000 a month, they'd go, no problem. They'd turn the dial up on the machine. Right, okay. But I think they're having like supply issues

and then they're going like, okay, well we're selling a significant percentage of these to our own employees at this cut throw. That's not a dream car for me. None of them. Porsche is not. What about like the four doors? None of those appeal to you?

They look very pretty, but it doesn't feel like it's my personality. So the one that I have been bouncing around about is I don't think their electric cars are selling well. The Taycans. Which are the only electric car I've ever driven that I loved. Where I was like, oh, I love this car.

Forget electric, non-electric, this is a phenomenal car. Bill Gates recommended it, that was the one. And then I reviewed one on Top Gear and I loved it. So that planted a seed. Then they came out, Monica, with a fucking shooting brake style, a seed. Then they came out Monica with a fucking shooting break style, a wagon. So they make a Taycan now in a wagon profile. An electric?

Yes, and you know I love station wagons. You do. And they're really discounted. Really? Like shockingly discounted right now. And so for about six weeks, I spent at least 20 minutes of my day talking myself out of buying a Taycan station wagon.

I'm like, oh, these are, I'll give you my argument when I'm convincing myself. Well, they're practically free. I mean, I think they're half off right now. It's such a good value. Also, I should have an electric car. It'd be great if I reduced my carbon foot point a little, do a little bit.

These are all like, now it sounds like I've got like a ethical cause on my hands, right? You're on a moral high ground. I'm on a moral crusade to buy this car. And then I go, no, no, Dex, you don't need another car. You don't even have time to drive another car. It would be another vehicle sitting here that needs to be maintained and serviced,

and you don't want that. That's not gonna up your enjoyment of life. Wow, that's good. But then an hour later, I'm like, God, I saw one in red, I should really get one that's a wagon in red. Also, I mean, it's probably good to get the electric car now while it's half off.

Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Well my next car is definitely going to be electric. Okay. Well you should think about getting a Taycan, Taycan station wagon, yeah. It's not really on brand for me. What part? Station wagon. Cause you're not cool?

I think you're very cool. I'm not cool enough to drive a station wagon. Oh, I don't, I don't, you know, we disagree on your coolness. Thanks. I think you can pull off Shave Side. I think an AMG's for you. An AMG is for me because it's a sedan.

Ultimately, it's a chic sedan. For you because it just landed in your lap and you started driving and you're like, yeah, I feel great in this. I don't think you would have gone to the dealership and picked that out. I wouldn't have picked an AMG. Right.

I would have picked. The normal sedan. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it turns out you're definitely pulling off an AMG. And when I hear you start your car down the block, I'm like, what a badass. But all I'm doing is pressing a button.

I know, but it's rumbles. Oh, wow. Yeah. Anyway, I do. Do you like the sound of it when it starts? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm just wondering if that even appeals to you.

Is that part of the visceral thing? I kind of don't hear it anymore. I don't care, yeah. When I first was doing it, I was embarrassed. Right. It's too loud for you. And now it was really loud. It felt a little toxic.

A little toxic. A little toxic. But now I don't even hear it, which is interesting, because it's not like it went down. People still can hear it. I just can't. When I start my AMG wagon, I have a full 30 seconds of euphoria.

I'm like, the way that low rumbles is so pleasing. The other day I was somewhere and some car was driving by and it was so loud. Obnoxiously loud. And I was so angry about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It felt so disturbing and so entitled. Like, why do you get to,

why do you feel like you can ruin everyone's day? Because that person loves that sound. So they're not thinking you don't love the sound. They're assuming you love the sound, they love the sound. Do you think most people love like extremely loud sounds? I don't know what most people think. I know that me and my guy friends all love the sound of an AMG.

We love the sound of- This is like times, this is not like the sound of an AMG. Right. This is times 4,000. I think the best example everyone can relate to is a Harley. That's also a very polarizing sound for people. Very loud, too loud.

I remember my judge going on and on for like 20 minutes of how annoyed he is at this group that rides by his house and there's like 50 of them. He's like, you know, how much attention do these guys need? You know, he's like really going, they're all solid points. And at the end of it, I just it, I would have felt fraudulent. I go, I know I'm one of those guys, I love that sound. And I love when I hear a pack of bikes go by.

I just love it. To each their own is the same, I think. To each their own. Oh, okay, she mentioned, Megan mentioned her sister who was sick, she had like really bad anemia. And she said her hemoglobin levels were like one or two, and that sounded really bad, but I also didn't know what normal levels are.

Yes, for men, they should be between 13.2 to 16.6. Okay. And for women, 11.6 to 15. Okay. So there's some overlap. 13 to 15 is some male-female overlap. Mm-hmm, exactly. That's one of the side effects that can happen to people

on testosterone replacement therapy. Oh, really? Their hemoglobin can get too high. Eric's had this. Mine's never, that's never been a side effect I had, luckily. But for's never, that's never been a side effect I had luckily, but for some people that can happen and then the solution is? Donuts.

Donate blood. Oh. You go donate some blood and then it lowers it all to normal. Oh wow, that's cool. Okay, speaking of medicines, I started my statin. Oh you did, congratulations. When did you start it? Thank you.

How many days ago? Probably a week ago at this point. Okay. Maybe a little more than that. You're not feeling any? Feeling fine. Yeah, I don't think you can feel any difference. Yeah, you can have, there's like,

you're supposed to look out for leg numbness. Okay. Which I don't. And muscle pain? Yeah, like maybe muscle stuff, I don't know. I haven't felt In muscle pain? Yeah, like maybe muscle, so I don't know. I haven't felt anything like that. I do think my appetite has gone down.

I think that's the stress. Of our life? Yeah, the last week. But I also, I looked it up and it is a side effect. Really? Yeah, it can be a appetite suppressant or like a, it makes you feel full. You know that's- Oh my God, it's like-

Ozymphic. I was going to say it's like over the counter. Well, it's not over the counter, but- Yeah. It feels like another- And I'm only taking half right now. I hope my doctor doesn't hear this. Okay, see where that gets you.

But Dr. Richard Isaacson said I could start with half. I had my first, did I already brag about this? My last hormone labs, which were like a month ago. And they were perfect. Well, I was under the cholesterol by a like, I've never been on, I haven't been under since I've been getting it checked. Right, that's great.

Oh my, I didn't think this was a possibility. Yeah, it's surprising, because you eat so much red meat. I know, but it's really not that. It's like your genetics. Well genetics is a huge thing, but red meat can really affect it and it can bring it down a ton if you cut it out. But for you, I guess it doesn't matter.

Yeah, my N1 experiment of having been vegan for a year and my cholesterol didn't move at all. Callie's mom went vegan and it completely fixed her cholesterol. Oh really? Yeah, I think that happens for people. I think if people don't have the genetic disposition where it's like they're just naturally high,

which my whole family has been naturally high. When I did it with diet, it didn't really do anything. I can have a lot of fiber, it doesn't really do much. So the red yeast, and then now I'm on a new, instead of a statin, which blocks it somehow, there's a way to block the absorption. So I'm on a different one that blocks absorption. And how's that going?

Really good. I mean, I had gotten myself to where I was already just teetering unhealthy, but this put me into like positively healthy. Wow, that's great. Yeah, thank you Dr. Richard Isaacson. It's really helping us out. Yeah, my internist asked if he could get enrolled

in that study. And so did my mom. Oh, yeah, it's a hot study. Yeah, it's the hot study to be in in 2024. It is. Ellie the elephant they were talking about is the mascot. In New York. Yeah, and I did look her up. She does look really cool.

And she does twerk and she dances and she like flips her hair. She's very cool. Well, funny enough, I would have never known anything about Ellie the Elephant, except for when I was in New York a couple of weeks ago, I was watching the news and there was a whole thing about Ellie the Elephant.

And I was like, oh my God, this is the thing they're talking about. The city is obsessed with Ellie the Elephant. She was on the nightly news. Wow. Is Sue, does she have the record for the longest player in the WNBA? She's one of Sue and Diana Tarassi. As of October, 2024, Sue Bird led the all time list of games played in Women's

National Basketball Association. Let's see what that number is. Bird played 580 games for the franchise. Okay. Diana, as of September, had the second at 565. Mm-hmm. But maybe... You could be in longer.

Uh-huh, true. And played less games. True. Yeah, you could have an injury and be out for a season. You're still, true. And played less games. True. Yeah, you could have an injury and be out for a season and you're still, that's a year you were in the WNBA, but you were out 50 games. Definitely, but I think this is how they quantify it.

Well, that's cool. Yep. That's it for Sue and Megan, not many facts, just fun. A lot of fun, light on facts. Heavy on fun. Heavy on fun. And heavy on information, it is really cool to have these women who represent women's sports and know a lot about it, the inside and obvious,

like objectively and subjectively, I would say. Yeah. And Sue said that you could let the girls win at basketball. She turned a corner on that. She switched mid-interview. She did. I wonder if when she left, she was like, well, now I regret switching, actually.

Yeah, she's been back and forth since then. I think the key was, I think she would keep her original opinion if your child had expressed a goal to end up in a professional sport. I think the turning point was me saying, they're not in route to any professional organization. Yeah. So what's the point?

What's the point? Yeah. I agree. All right. I love you. Love you. Bye. Love you.

Bye. Love you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

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