Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Mel Robbins (on the Let Them Theory)

Episode Date: November 12, 2025

Mel Robbins (The Let Them Theory, The High 5 Habit, The 5 Second Rule) is a podcast host, entrepreneur, and best-selling author. Mel joins the Armchair Expert to discuss feeling every day in college like the only one who couldn’t make it work, how the human brain is wired to avoid what’s hard, and all the attributions kids make growing up in an unsafe environment. Mel and Dax talk about the reason getting out of bed when you don’t feel like it is a skill, why we are one decision away from a different life, and the fact that there’s always an excuse not to do something. Mel explains when she began course correcting her life one five-second interval at a time, the reality that there’s no amount of talking yourself out of what’s meant for you, and The Let Them Theory.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Buck Roger Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman, Donkey Mule, Padman. Oh, wow. people are going to be thrilled about today's guests they sure are so popular and for good reason that's right mel robbins mel robbins is a creator and entrepreneur a best-selling author

and podcast host her books include the let them theory biggest book of the year huge all genres Wow. Over six million copies sold. Whoa. Yeah, it's like sapiens. Oh, like sapiens. The Bible's got her by a few. The high five habit and the five second rule.

And of course, the Mel Robbins podcast where she talks to, to be honest, many of the same people we do. Some crossover. Yeah. She has a lot of great experts on. And she has a great understanding and ability to communicate some pretty hard topics scientifically. She's a great layperson intermediary. That's right. Yes, she's a badass.

I love her. She's from Michigan. Please enjoy Mel Robbins. This episode of Armchair Expert is presented by Apple Pay. You know, holiday shopping can be a hassle, but Apple Pay makes it so much easier. Whether you're shopping online or in store, look for the Apple Pay button or contactless symbol at checkout. No more digging for your wallet or filling out long online checkout forms.

It works at millions of places, including. stores, websites, and apps. This means you can spend less time at checkout and more time finding the perfect gifts. Pay the Apple way. Terms apply. Are you by Killington by chance by chance?

45 minutes. I live in Vermont. Being Michiganders, if we wanted to go to a real ski hill. Boing Mountain, baby. Well, Boing the Mountain, Shanny Creek. That's your area. Muskegan? Yeah, Muskegan. But if you wanted a real 6,000 feet of vertical. In Michigan? Exactly. There isn't any

in Michigan. The closest is Killington. The closest 6,000 foot peak is Killington? Yeah. Well, you've really done your geography research. Well, as a kid, I was into snowboarding. Wait, hold on. Did you have a snurfer? Tell me about a snuffer. Oh, please.

You don't know what a snor is. Tell me what a snor is. Oh, my God. I might know, but it's not ringing about. Dude, I think it might have been invented in Muskegon, Michigan. Okay. It was a one-way ticket to a broken neck. Basically, it was like a board like this.

Uh-huh. And then it had two grippy things on the feet. And you would literally stand on it like this. Yeah. So far you're describing a snowboard. Oh, it had this train. I had a rope. I know exactly what you're saying.

And your feet were not even attached. That's right. It was basically a sled you would stand up on with a cord. Yes, I did do that before. So that was a snurfer. I didn't know that was the name. Yeah, it's called a snurfer. It makes sense they've married snow and surfing.

Yes, exactly. And then you could take that, I don't know if it was called sex wax back then, but growing up in Muskegon, it was all sand dunes right into Lake Michigan, kind of like Cape Cod, a lot of people. Silver Lake, sleeping bare dunes. And so you would wax that sucker up or put some Crisco on it if you couldn't afford the wax, which is what we did. then right down the same.

We have a tiny age gap, and this is where snowboarding came to be when I was like in seventh grade. So we would take the snowboards to the sand dunes as well and get towed up by a four-wheeler and then go down. Oh, I love that idea, four-wheeler towing you up. So you're adventurous. Yes. When you grew up in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere, you've got to make your own fun. You're in the middle of a field drinking. Yes, sure.

Like hoping whoever owns it doesn't come out in their tractor or their snowmobile with a shot. Shotgun. Field parties. Yes, field parties. So my guess is we had a semi-similar cultural upbringing. What were mom and dad doing in Muskegon? There's not a ton of employment there, is there? No, there's not. It had a big company called Seal Power. Then that kind of went somewhere else in like a lot of industry in Michigan. It was very much tied to automotive. And so lots of spring manufacturers and machinists, and then it got very ag and rural right after that. So my mom, for quite a while was stay at home and took care of us and also did a ton of volunteering. She grew up on a huge farm in Buffalo, New York. Her favorite thing to do, we would go to the farmer's market. And she knew everybody's name. I mean, we would go to those outdoor stalls, and I would be eight years old, like, can we just pick out the patty pan squash for crying out loud?

Do we have to talk to Fred about his dog and about his 15 grandkids? She just was incredibly engaged in the community, and my dad was an orthopedic surgeon. I'm going to get all the facts wrong, but you're going to get them correct after this. So this was in the prime of Muskegon, Tammy, Faye Baker. Oh, yeah. They were like the claim to fame to Muskegon, which is not a great claim to fame. I don't think she was there, but I think they were from there. Got it.

And so it was a much bigger, more booming kind of town in the 70s. Well, would you say the population was then? God, I'm going to guess. I don't even know. This is not a good question. 100,000, 200. I don't know. This is not a good question.

literally have no idea. But so the cool thing about my dad is that this was before minute clinics. When you grew up in a small town, the town doesn't work unless everybody works in it. So my dad was on city council. My mom was engaged in just about every community activity you could be involved in. My dad was the hometown doc for both the football team. And he was also the hometown dock for the Muskegon Lumberjacks. Do you think friends of yours were so embarrassed when they went to the hospital? It was like your dad walked in like, oh my God, I got you. show him this thing on my. When you're an orthopedic surgeon and you've got a femur sticking out of a leg, you're not embarrassed. You're dying to see a doctor, right? True. But here's what

happened. Since there were no minute clinics, if your dad's a dock in a small town, your kitchen becomes a minute clinic. Sure, sure, sure. So people were constantly coming by and you'd have a cup of coffee. So tell me about what's going on with your neck. What happened to your ankle? Yes. Like that kind of thing. And then I used to watch him for the Muskegon Lumberjacks, which was the Farm League for the Pittsburgh Penguins, he would come after work and he'd be all dressed up and we'd be in the MC Walker Arena and people with their cowbells and the hockey thing. And then one of the guys would get busted up because they'd throw the mitts off and start fighting.

My dad would be shuffling out there in his little loafers to stitch somebody up on ice because they didn't want to go back there. And so I just grew up, but sounds like you as well, just in this sense that every, you Everybody's got a role to play. And being engaged with other people, caring about other people, being involved in your community is just something I witnessed. You know, I just had this interesting experience where I've been here for 30 years in L.A. And then we have since built a place in a small town outside of Nashville and we spent the whole summer there. And just the simplest thing occurred to me.

It's like, I can't tailgate somebody here. I'm going to see them at the gas station tomorrow. Right? Like, I can't flip anyone off. And just that simple awareness of like, oh, right, you're not anonymous here. And that's a very abstract but powerful thing that a big city gives you is like anonymity. And with that anonymity, behavior kind of erupts that otherwise maybe one end. And even if you don't have a lofty sense of community, which I don't, just the simple fact that you will be held accountable and you're not anonymous and your behavior is being seen and you'll have to account for it is like a very powerful force. I agree with you. Then I totally lost sight of because I've just been here for so long. How big was the town

that you grew up in? Oh boy, another question I have no answer. I'm going to guess. Small, medium big. Medium, right? Duluth? 35, $40,000 is going to be my guess.

Yeah, probably. So small to medium. Atlanta suburb. A suburb. Big mall. Definitely community base. You don't get a mall with under $30,000, I don't think. It has a fall festival.

Everyone goes. I was in the parade. Yes. It was very community base. Well, I think there's this dual thing that I've reflected. on a lot, which is number one, there's this sense of being connected to something and the sense of being known and the sense of whether you call it conscientiousness, that your behavior actually

impacts other people. You'll be observed. Yes. So whether you're positively impacted because you want a good reputation or you just don't want to get in trouble, it has an impact on you stopping to think about how your behavior impacts others. But it also, for me anyway, as I started to grow up, I don't know about you guys, but you start to have this sense, like, get me the hell out of it. Well, right. That's the flip side of the coin is that I have to play by these rules because I'm not anonymous and I'm accountable. And what if I don't like the rules, right? Like, what if I'm not in concert with the mores of this small town?

Then I need to go somewhere else, which I did. Mixed with your identity gets kind of cemented and everyone knows you. And so it's hard to break out of that when everyone has already put you in. in one spot. So you have to almost leave to create your next one. Yes, or at least that's what we tell ourselves. That's what we tell ourselves. Right? That kind of, I need the clean slate. I got to get out of here. I want to reinvent myself. I think it's real. Like, I have friends coming in town tomorrow from home. All my best friends from home. They're all coming. It's so fun. I'm so excited. But it is so funny when we all get back together. Everyone resumes. They're coming here where

I live, where I'm building a house. We're going to fall back. into our old hierarchical pattern. Like, I know it. It just will happen regardless. But my question for you is, is there discomfort in that? Because I, too, resume my role, but I get nostalgic and I love it. I'm like, oh, right, I'm the jester and I'm supposed to be crazy and I like it. Now in this life, I'm kind of responsible.

I don't dislike it. It's just interesting. I am playing a different role here that I play in my daily life. There is something safe about it, I will say. There's something like, oh, this is like, will always exist. You know how to do this. It's like when you get back on skis and, oh, yeah, I know how to do this. I know how to play with this role.

I mean, you're probably better snowboarder than I am, so it takes me a couple runs. Okay, so what seems obvious probably because dad was a doctor, but school has to be really valued in your house, maybe even asymmetric to your surroundings. The fact that you go to Dartmouth, I can't imagine is a really popular destination. I was the first person in my high school to ever go there. Yeah. And I was a great student, but terrible study habits.

so I'm like one of these people that can somehow just ace a test, but I can't write a paper. We learn later at 47 why that is, but we'll hear a mark that. Exactly. And so I just crushed the SATs. What did I get? What did I get? Well, for me, this is crushing. I got a 1440. That's great. Yes. So like an 800 on the math. Wow, perfect score on math. And so it literally made me go, oh, let's get out of here. You're going to go to Western, you're going to Central, or you're going to go to State, or if you're lucky, you go to you, Mish. So I'm like, I'm going somewhere else.

and so we loaded up the car and we took a road trip and we went to all the big schools in the east. I had no idea that so many of these schools are actually in the city. And so we go to all these premier schools and it was kind of like one city experience after another and I'm like, this doesn't feel like college. And then we get to Dartmouth.

It was a gorgeous day. I knew nothing about the school. It's in New Hampshire. It's in Hanover, New Hampshire. Beautiful blue bird sky. Beautiful green. There's dogs. running around, people throwing a frisbee.

I get out and I'm like, this is college. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I fight early. I got in and I was at. And I always say to our kids, if I had applied now, I'd never get in. Sure. Geographic diversity. You're talking 1986. Nobody had ever applied for my school. Great on paper. Yeah. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Were you always going to pursue a law degree?

No. No. No. No. I thought I would become a doctor and cure cancer. Okay. And then I took one chemistry class and said, I can't. can't do this and smoke weed. And so I think I'm not going to become a doctor. Right. And then I dabbled and I got a history and a film and a women's studies triple major. Wow. The history one's a great transfer for law, right? They have a lot of reading. I guess. But I was the queen of all-nighters. I look back on my ears at Dartmouth and I feel like I squandered that experience because I was in what I would call peak dysfunction.

What did that look like? Constant drinking. It looked like being in a relationship for a year and then starting to feel anxious again because I realize now, looking back, now that I've put all the pieces together through a tremendous amount of work, is that with undiagnosed ADHD, with undiagnosed dyslexia, and with past trauma that I had no idea had happened, I lived in a constant state of being in fighter flight. Yeah, like arousal state of Oh, just like on edge all the time. And I was trying so hard to do what I was supposed to do, whether it's get up and get to class.

It felt impossible. I would go to the stacks, and I would be so intense. Okay, I've got my books. I'm going to sit down. It's a week before exams, and I've barely been able to make it to class. I've got some of the assignments in, and then I would sit down, and it was as if my stomach growling was at vise.

volume 100, I could hear you two idiots chattering over in the corner. No, a lot of these of them are they're going to get together in the class. Exactly. And I've gone to the place where you're supposed to study, not the popular, like, place to chat in the library. And I just constantly felt like I was the only person who couldn't make it work. Every day of college, I had that nightmare. You know the nightmare? Maybe you don't have this one where you're in a dream. and it's finals week. And you realize that you have signed up for a class that you've never gone to.

Monica still has the dream and just talked about it on a past episode. Yeah, mine's different. I always feel pretty prepared in that way. Mine is that I realize I am a credit short. Oh, okay. And I can't graduate and everyone's graduated. And I'm like, oh, my God, I didn't finish.

And now I got to take this other class. How did I not do that? Yes. Question about the trauma. Yeah. You said you later realized it was trauma. Is that because you didn't remember it or something happened that you didn't know should be labeled trauma that you now know should be labeled trauma? Excellent question.

I didn't remember it. I had had this incident when I was in the fourth grade up in northern Michigan where we were on a big ski vacation. We were a new family. We had been hosted by some other families and all the kids were in a big bunk room. And I was in a bottom bunk. I was probably fourth grade. Okay. So 10.

And I was sound asleep. When you're asleep, you are safe. And I remember waking up in the middle of the night, and there was an older kid on top of me. And it was a very confusing experience because it's going to sound weird. There was something that felt good about it, but scary about it, but I'm a fourth grader. Yeah. I don't know what's happening. And I immediately, I guess I call it possuming, where you kind of go like this.

Submit, yeah. And I don't even know what happened next. I just remember rolling over, and then I looked to my right, and my right. my baby brother was sleeping in the other bunk bed, and I thought I need to be quiet because I don't want this person to do anything to him. Yeah, yeah. And then it was over. And you probably disassociated.

100%. And pulled the covers over my head. To this day, you guys, I sleep with a pillow over my head and I burrow. I think it's still a response to this feeling of that experience being frozen in my body. And so the next morning, I stayed in bed hidden. until all the kids left and you hear the clamoring downstairs and they go all off to ski and I think I'm safe and I come down the stairs and I see the parents in there

and my mom says, how'd you sleep? And I immediately wanted to say something to her. Right, but you can't. I saw the kid. And what's interesting is that you guys have had Gabor Mattae. He said something to me. You know when somebody says something to you

that it's almost like they take a wedge, and then a sledge hammer and it splits you in half. Yeah, he has that ability. He looked at me and said, Mel, the trauma isn't what happened. Yes, that was a terrible thing that happened. The trauma was that you as a child

actually kept it to yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you didn't have the ability to get the help that you needed. And when he explained that, And it made me really reflect on how, you know, a lot of us have that kind of lone wolf syndrome. I got to do it myself.

Nobody's going to help anyway. Nobody understands that there is that through line. And the other thing that was a major through line is I realize that I think one of the reasons why to this day, it's still hard for me to get out of bed. There are people that can spring out of bed. First of all, they're weirdos. I don't know who the hell is why I would like that. But for me, every morning, even on a good day,

I still have that response. Arrested kind of. Yes. And of course, the higher cortisol levels being a woman and all that kind of stuff doesn't necessarily help. But it is very helpful to me to understand that there are things that you experience in life that might be out of your control. But when you start to understand some of the settings, whether it's in your body or in your emotional temperament or in the way your mindset is, that if you understand some of these settings, that there are small adjustments that you can make

so you don't personalize it. Because I used to lay in bed in the morning and be like, I'm a loser, why do I feel this way? Something bad's going to happen. And it would just send my day this way. And what I've now learned is that I can have that feeling and not add anything to it and go, oh, there it is again. Let's get the fuck up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the chorus of judgment that follows the observation that then becomes its own way worse condition. Yes. There's like this disappointment and judgment that I feel this way. I'm broke and I'm defective. I shouldn't be this way. I'm lazy.

I'm all these things. Yeah. And then the self-flagellation. What a fucking waste of energy. But so many of us do it. I mean, do you do that in the morning? Oh. Yeah.

I love to sleep. I never want to get out. The sleep is good. But do you have that negative thing in the morning? I actually don't think I punish myself. But I do have, I'm like, I don't want to get out. I don't want to start. Because once I start, then it's like, okay, then we have all the stuff.

stuff we have to do, it feels overwhelming. Yes. So I don't want to start, but I don't blame. I'm not like I'm lazy. I'm more just like, God, my life is overwhelming. I'm aware of that. We have different. Mine is you're a piece of shit.

You're lazy. You're a fucking coward. It's all stuff I would not say to my worst enemy. Unbelievable that our own minds will do this. I just hate myself. Do you still hate yourself? No, no, no. I've really gotten way, way, way, way better.

But for a big chunk of my life, probably what gets coupled of that And I wonder if this is the case for you, which is it ends up being this motivator. And then I rely on it. And that becomes like my workflow. So it's like, how do you uncouple this thing that has gotten you to take these chances that you otherwise want it or get yourself out of bed? Now, I've come to believe and have proof of it that. No, no, I can do all this stuff without that. It was just a fear I had.

I just had done it that way for so long that I got nervous that's how it had to be done. I think it's a great question. And if I really try to distill the thing that you were just saying, you are talking about two different things. At least that's what I heard. So one is that there is some value for some people in the berating and what you would call the negative emotion, the negative motivation. And while that's true, I do think that there's a lot of research that's been done to say that that sort of berating. isn't actually motivating at all and that you can decouple things and go, oh, that thing looks cool and I'm scared of it. And now I'm going to talk to myself differently to do it. But the second

thing that I think is deeper and what you're really touching on is that in terms of the motivational circuitry inside of us, we don't really understand it. And the person that explained it to me the best was Dr. K, the Healthy Gamer guy. He's unbelievable. Okay, don't know him. Oh, my, you have to get him on. He is so fantastic. He was a guy that got like a two, three in college, came from a family where everybody needed to be a doctor, and then he'll have to tell you the story, but he ends up applying 93 times, like to medical school, gets in, and then gets his clinical training at Harvard's McLean Hospital. And he specialized in gaming addictions. And so now what he does, trains other therapists on treating people who have gaming addictions, and he does a ton of stuff

on Twitch. So he's so freaking cool. But here's what he basically said. The human brain is wired to move towards what's easy. That's why we lay in bed. Yeah, we avoid discomfort. Completely. And it's not even a void.

We're wired to move away from it. Yeah. And since we don't understand that pain is part of the process, we're always stepping on the break when we could be stepping on the gas. And so he basically said, until the. a situation gets more painful than where you are, you actually will not change. For example, you know, we've had a long journey with sobriety. A lot of the experts that I spoke to in particular in researching the work for the let them theory all kept saying people don't get

sober until being drunk is harder than doing the thing that you need to do that you've been avoiding. And same thing is true about weight, about being motivated at school. You don't actually have that moment where you're like positively, I'm inspired to change. What typically happens is you get to the point where you're like, I am so sick and tired of this shit that I'm willing to go against my own wiring and move toward this thing I've been talking myself out of. Because staying here hurts more. I think one of the other mistakes that we make in life, both with ourselves and with the people that we care about, is that we tend to be very judgy. And it seems so easy when you're looking at somebody else, oh, it would be so easy for you to just do this thing.

Don't buy the cigarettes. Yes. And the truth is, I think we forget that if you take, for example, kids that are in a classroom, who is the hardest working kid in a classroom? It's not the kid who's getting A's. It's the kid who's failing. Because they're sitting in a classroom knowing that they're not able to thrive. They're sitting there knowing that there is this potential that they cannot reach. You know how challenging that is? Yeah. And yet I've made so many mistakes as a parent

where I'll just come marching in like some know-it-all and tell our son, you know, you better get off the Xbox if you want to. As if he is some idiot that doesn't know that you need to kind of put in more of the work. He's playing Xbox because he's good at it. That's why he's not doing school because it's hard. Yeah, right, right, right.

It's pretty simple. So now I'm working against the actual laws of motivation, and now I'm shaming him. We're incentive creatures and now you're asking him to not be an incentive creature. Speaking of that, I was just thinking about

how we were both saying how we wake up and we have different motivations, I guess. You wake up and you're like, I'm bad. You used to. I just want to say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, you wake up and your thought is I'm bad. So your day is about proving you're good.

And my waking up is I'm not good enough. Ooh. So my day is about. I'm good enough, working a ton. It is all about how you wake up and see yourself and you spend the day trying to prove that wrong. And it's so exhausting for everyone. Yes.

You know, the other thing that's interesting about mornings and, you know, again, look into this because I would love to find the study on this. But there's a huge moment for a lot of people that grew up in very chaotic or abusive households or have all kinds of adverse things that have happened to them with the actual experience of waking up. Because if you as a child were waking up in a household

where you're like, okay, who's downstairs? Are they drunk? Like what's going to go down? Yeah, yeah. Is it broken glass on the floor in the kitchen? Yes, yes. You have a lived experience of waking up in a threatening state emotionally or physically.

That's true. A lot of adults have this kind of legacy from that and don't understand why there is this feeling of dread or this feeling of I'm not enough. For me, I would wake up and my experience was somebody's mad at me. I've done something wrong. Gosh, okay, this is phenomenal right here because my brother and I have been bonding a lot lately over this. My brother has it worse than me. He and I have the same thing.

I'm trying to break myself of it because it drives my kids bonkers, rightly so. Which is like, I'm always in trouble. If someone's unhappy, I'm like, are you okay? My first thought is that I do something. My baseline is, am I in trouble, did I do something? And my brother has it so bad. It's easy for me to see it in him. And I've had to confront it myself and my kids are also great communicators.

Did you actually talk to Gabor about this? No. Okay, so can I just like lay something on you? Yeah, I want to hear one here. Clearly I'm not a therapist. We're just armchair experts sitting. We're two peers chatting about what we've learned in life. So one of the things that might be interesting for you to experiment with,

because the language that we use as a kid is I'm the problem. I learned this from Dr. Paul Conti from Stanford, and he's the guy that wrote the big book about trauma. He was Lady Gaga's psychiatrist. He's unbelievable. Not the body keeps the score. No, no, okay. I can remember who wrote that book, but Dr. Paul Conti at Stanford.

He basically said that the human being has such an unbelievably mesmerizingly intelligent design. Like, if you really just think about, how does a human being go from a blob, just the encoding to grow into, it's unbelievable. No, I'm driving my kids just going, I'm often, I'll say to them, I'm like, we're just one of the monkeys, guys, but somehow look at all this shit we made. It's unbelievable. We're on an overpass. What is cement? How do we? It's bonkers.

It's incredible. But there's one gap that's actually a very cruel thing that happens in childhood development. that is called attribution. Meaning, when you're a little kid and shit's going sideways around you, you do not have the development yet of something that they call attribution, which means as a little kid,

if mom or dad comes home and they throw something, and you're like this, you don't have the ability to attribute that behavior out there. Because something that happened at work. Yes. You attribute it to hear. It's my fault. So the I did something bad

is the language that gets developed when you're in that developmental window as a kid. And now I want to add in one more thing that's been helpful for me. Because this is tied to your safety. And now all the people around you are out of control or the sounds out of control or their mood's out of control or the beer can is getting cracked. And now shit's going to go sideways. Or a big one for people is the wheels on the driveway. The way the car pulls into the driveway is very telling. The way the door shuts.

How long does it take the person to get to the door? front door. Yes. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare. This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. Bonnie, I can't believe it's almost the holidays.

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is we now think we have to do something to make it okay for everybody else. Mm-hmm. Did you have tics and superstitions as a kid? How did you know that? Yeah, because I had insane tics. Not ticks, but superstitions. Right, because you can't control the uncontrollable, so you start devising different mechanisms, which you can control.

Simple stuff. Scuff your heel, you got to do it on the other side. Everything's got to be even. I had to do every single thing twice. I developed all these, like, if I can check that and I can hear that thing, then everything's going to be cool. But they're all superstitions. Like, if I can complete these tasks, I will have some impact over this scenario.

And when I look at when it was at its peak, it was also at the peak of the worst stepdad, right? So it's quite obvious to me. Superstitions and tics, I think they're bedfellows. And I'm curious. So you did. You had a lot of superstitions. Yeah. I think so.

No tics. But also my family was superstitious. Yeah. She's got the built-in Indian thing where it's like a New Year's, if everyone's not present, there will not be good health to everybody. Like there's a lot of built-in cultural. And the year together. So it's like, oh, God. You have to do that.

There was a prayer I did a night that I invented. Do you still do it? I don't do it anymore. What is the prayer? That's a sign of growth. I want to hear the prayer. What is the prayer? No, I can't say it.

I'm superstitious about that. Really? It'll avoid it out. It's basically just these are the things I pray that won't happen. So it is all fear-based kind of. And then what's interesting is isn't there research that since your mind is literally not a storage unit, it's a processor and a spotlight, that focusing on what you don't want to have happen? actually has your mind look for it more?

Oh, 100%, yeah. And there's like categories, like natural disasters and kidnappers and robbers is a category. There's an age. I go say like my family will live up to this age. It was a whole thing. I would have to do that at night. And if I didn't, of course, everyone's dead.

Isn't that kind of sad if you stop and think about it? A little girl laying in bed, the weight of the world and all this stuff that you're feeling and how, we try to negotiate with ourselves. I was so afraid of just getting killed. Yes. I don't know what it was if it was Poltergeist, if it was Fantasy Island. I don't know what it was that got in my little brain.

But so for my superstition, I developed this thing that I was convinced that that fucking clown from Poltergeist was under my bed and was going to pull me under it, that I had exactly three steps to flip off the light, hop, hop, hop on the bed. Yep, in order to be safe, but then I couldn't get off the bed all night. See, I would call that a tick. That's a tick? I would call that because it is a physical behavior you have been active. Like in the OCD sense, you have an obsession about the clown, the compulsion is this thing.

I think that's a tick, in essence. It could be, but I'll tell you, to this day, I'm going to admit something to you. There are times, especially as a 57-year-old woman who has to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, I will have that experience of having to get up, and I will literally lay under the sheets. Chris's sound asleep next to me. Dogs don't even wake up when I stir. And I try to go back to sleep because I do not want to get out of bed because I know there will be... Not polter guys, because I now am not dumb, Monica.

I have a bed that does not have space under it, so it actually hits the floor. So you figured it out. But as I go around the bed and into the bathroom, you have to put your head. hand around the wall to turn on the switch. I'd say nine times out of ten, as I go to reach my hand around, I have a visualization that there is a creepy-ass alien hand that comes and grabs my hand. And I have to, as a 57-year-old grown-ass woman, say to myself, there's no hand, Mel. Just like walk past it.

It's like a brain fart that tortures me. I don't know how to get rid of it. What is that? Do you have anything like that? I'm really admitting that I'm insane right now. I relate in an adjacent thing, which is the phenomenon of the shoe's going to drop. That's the thing I wish I could rid myself of that I still struggle with. Give me an example of a recent time.

Just the moment I acknowledge things are nice and I'm grateful, pretty immediately there's a little swell of fear that somehow it's all going to get taken away. We'd be up there recording when we recorded up there. And I'm like, someone's going to knock on the door and go like, we're so sorry, big mistake. This show isn't big. You're not making a living. This is not real. The shoe is going to drop thing is probably, I don't want to say the last, but it's one of the things I would love to say goodbye to that I can't figure out how.

I don't know how. But to me, a demon hand around a corner is a little bit of the shoe. Like, there's something lurking always that's going to take away, anything that's good. The thing that sucks about it is that if you really unpack that experience of the what if or the other shoe is going to drop, or I can't let things get too good, or I can't be too happy. And so you hold space over here for, oh, but something might go wrong. Don't allow yourself to really relax into this. It's really sad.

It is. And it's complicated. I think it's dynamic. It's not one thing. I think it's related to what we've been talking about. I do. I was just thinking of how clever your subconscious is and how unaware of it you are and how it is trying to protect you at all times.

But the way it tries to protect you is obviously damaging. in a lot of ways. And I was like, the most helpful thing that the subconscious could give us is it should have to show its math. Like my kids right now in fifth grade, if she does an equation, she has to show how she got to here.

So it's like when I just have an impulse, like, you know what, I should go buy this great coat. I already decided I'm going to feel good when I do it. I should be able to glance and go like, how did we get to here where I need to buy a new coat? I'd like to see the math of it. Like I just would love to know how the subconscious

is creating all these bizarre, motivations for us that it believes is going to soften some more help us. A couple things that I wanted to say about all the stuff that we've been talking about the other shoe is that I used to live in deep fear of everything going sideways, losing it all, not being worth anything. And one of the things that I'm really grateful for is that all of the success that you see came after almost losing everything that matters. Like this happened very late in life for me. At the age of 41, I almost lost our house, my marriage, our family almost got torn apart.

So, Boston College law degree, practices law in New York City, doesn't love that. Actually becomes the CNN correspondent during the Zimmerman trial. Things are going great. She can move between these occupations. Husband has started a pizza restaurant. Well, you do your homework, dad. I try to. You have children.

Everything should be honky dory. 2008 meltdown. Lose the restaurant. You can't get out of bed. You drink too much. You want to get divorced. You hate your marriage, you hate your career, you hate everything. So it's 2008, which was a lousy year for a lot of people, and we found ourselves $800,000 in debt.

We didn't have that money to begin with. That was the home equity line. That was credit cards. That was factoring against the receipts. Home equity out of a house that's no longer worth what it was when you got. Correct. And friends and family had invested. Yeah.

And it wasn't like they were trying to fail. You got one open, things were going sideways. You got friends and family involved. You're in a small community. Three kids under the age of 10. leans on the house, bills piled sky high. I've lost my job. And in these moments, it's so much easier to be angry.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And your husband, I would lay in bed in the morning and be like, hate my life, hate my husband. What the hell? I didn't have anything to do with this. That is the beginning. How severe is the drinking just because I'm an addict? I want to know what's happening during this time.

Oh, I would say probably four to five Manhattons a night. Okay, great. You're getting bombed every night. Every night. I would be in a chair like that all. although not that nice. In our living room, Chris and I would have been fighting. The drinking would start after the kids went to bed, time to check out.

You want to know how to know when you're failing at parenting? How? I like him most embarrassed to tell you this. But our kids would wake us up after missing the bus. Yeah, that's right. Here's the thing. Nobody wakes up and says, you know what? Today I think I'm going to fuck up my life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not how it works. And what happens is you slowly start to make decisions that aren't really on center. You start sliding with your own character and values. Yeah, yeah. And you start betting on a dream and a fantasy instead of living in reality. And you don't want to face what's not working. And so you keep ignoring it.

And it's a self-fueling cycle. Yes. So the worst you feel, the more you're doing that. Correct. And by the way, there are also things. happen in life that aren't fair or out of your control, a global recession. The fact that there were six nor'easters that year, meaning the restaurant closed six weekends in a row. Now I understand looking back. I didn't understand anything about the mind or body. I didn't understand anything

about the way that anxiety or your mindset or your nervous system or stress can really become chronic. And then when your amygdala takes over and you're venting and venting and venting, you are now creating this pattern in your brain. And that means I can now look back with compassion. But if you're in that state where it's woe is me and you're angry at the world, you're afraid as hell, and the problems are real. But you also now are compromised.

And so the simple things that change everything feel impossible. I never thought I'd be the kind of person that couldn't actually get out of bed. I never thought I would be that far in debt. I never thought I'd be screaming at my husband, Chris, all the time. I never thought I'd isolate that much. Yeah. And so it just became this own negative loop.

And that's the beginning of the massive change that you see now 16 years later. It was the worst moment of my life. And when you come that close to blowing up your whole life, if you manage to pull yourself out of it and climb out of that hole, you don't fucking forget what that feels like. Yeah, you don't. What was the first crack? Like, what was the thread you pulled that you then build upon?

The reason why I am the person I am today is because I learned how to get out of bed on the mornings I didn't feel like it. Getting out of bed when you don't feel like it is a skill because the skill that we're talking about is learning how to ignore your feelings and do what needs to be done. Yeah, break down from when you have the thought and what gets in the way between the thought and the action and then I'll set us up for 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. I didn't know any of the science then, but I was drunk watching television, and I was having a talk with myself. It was a Monday night in February 2008, and Chris was nowhere to be seen because he was a smart guy. You don't want to be near the bitch. He's got a couple of bourbons in. Because there's something about Midwest and bourbon that also brings out like the, oh. Yeah, I was a jack-in diet person myself. There you go. I just love the term drunk and watching TV

because I spent thousands of hours drunk watching TV. And I'm having a pep talk with myself. And I'm like, that's it. Tomorrow, it's the new you. Tomorrow, Mel, you have got to call your parents. You have to open the bills. You haven't looked at your bills in like six months or something. No, I just left it on the counter. Dude, I unplugged the phone.

Sure. Because it was collectors calling. You know, tomorrow you have to look for a job. Tomorrow you have to be nice to Chris. Tomorrow you got to get those kids on the bus. Tomorrow, you got to stop drinking. Tomorrow, when that alarm rings, you can't fucking lay there. You have to get out of bed.

and it was an intervention from God or the universe. This rocket chip went across the television screen at the end of a commercial. It gave me the stupidest idea. And the idea was, that's it. Tomorrow, when the alarm rings, you are going to launch yourself out of bed like a rocket. You're going to move so fast. You won't be in that bed. You don't have time to think about it.

Correct. Now, it was the bourbon, probably. Or it was God. But, you know, it's just one of these moments, you guys, that could have so easily come and gone. Yes, yeah. And they're all around. you. I really believe your one decision away from a different life. I also think in those moments, you have to right size your goals in a sense.

I'm sure for months you are like, I've got to get 800 grand. I got to get so far down the road. And then just adjusting like, no, no, tomorrow we're going to wake up and we're going to pull up the classified. So that's all. We're not getting 800 grand tomorrow. We're just going to wake up. We're just going to get out of best. Starting to right size your goals, I think is also helpful. But here's one of the things that I think a lot about. And I think you do. a phenomenal job in your conversations.

And that's, you can know what to do. And it just, it really, like, I can put myself right back to what it felt like, how scary it was. Yeah, powerless. And the other thing is, this is not the world's most amazing story. People go bankrupt every day. People struggle with addiction every day. People lose their housing all the time.

It was still so paralyzing. and to also feel like you're letting your kids down. When you pull your kids out of town soccer because you can't pay for it, when you walk them out of a grocery store because your check card just bounced again and you have to leave the groceries there, there is a level of I am really failing

that you don't forget. And I knew what I needed to do. And this is the trap that everybody's in. I knew I needed a job. I knew Chris was trying as hard as he was, and it wasn't helping. I knew the kids needed me to show up. I knew the drinking wasn't helping. I knew isolating wasn't helping, but I could not make myself do it.

And I think in those moments where you're deeply stuck, it's not the knowing and not knowing that's the problem. It's that you have no hope. You are so discouraged and you convince yourself that it doesn't matter, that it doesn't matter if I get out of bed, because these problems are so big, you surrender because you're discouraged. And so I've come to believe not only based on my own personal experience, but also based on all of the work that I do professionally,

that the single biggest thing that stands in anybody's way isn't knowledge and isn't action, it's a lack of hope. It's this sense that it's not going to work. It worked for Dax or it worked for Monica or it's not going to work for me. That crushing sense that why would I get out of bed? What's the point? What's the point? That's what you're actually battling.

And for some reason, that Tuesday morning, when the alarm ring, it's sort of like this amazing symbol for any moment in your life where there's this little piece inside you that's like, speak up, break up, get out of bed, start the podcast, quit the job. That little inspiration is there. And so the alarm rings. That's the alarm from your soul. That's the alarm from your DNA. I choose to believe that people want to thrive, they're wired to thrive, that that is in there as much as we bury it

with discouragement and a lack of hope. I immediately remembered that dumb rocket launch thing, whether it was a hangover, it was cold and dark, it's February, it's out of Boston. I made a fatal mistake, and it's the mistake everybody makes. I hesitated and started to think about whether or not I felt like getting out of bed.

Yeah. That's the mistake. there's this five-second window that defines your whole life. It's this moment where you pause and hesitate. And in this five-second window where you move from this moment of inspiration and knowing and motivation or confidence or whatever you want to call it, and you hesitate and you start to consider, well, how do I feel about doing it? You move from this bias towards action to a bias towards thinking. And inside this hesitation comes all the anxiety, all the self-doubt, all of the patterns, and all of the reasons. There's always an excuse not to do something. And that morning,

you guys, I felt my hand reaching for the snooze button because the thoughts were like, why am I getting out of bed? It's dark. I don't feel like it. Also, I don't have to do. I don't want to. And I just started counting backwards, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and I stood up. And that was the moment that changed my life, and it didn't change my life overnight. What happened is over time, counting 5-4-3-2-1, like 73 times a day, 5-4-3-2-1, put down the bourbon. 5-4-3-2-1, pick up the phone and call somebody and tell them I need a job. Five-four-three-one, take a deep breath and don't yell at Chris. I started course-correcting, and I started interrupting the feelings. You're doing CBT and you don't even know. Exactly. So that's 0-8, and your TED Talk is what year?

Three years later. How do we get to the TED Talk? For three years, I am in blocking and tackling mode in my life. It's one, five-second decision at a time. Force directing. I get two or three jobs right out of the gate, just picking up money. My husband's stepping out of the restaurant business and is a shell of himself shattered because he feels like he's lost everybody's money and he's failed as a dad and as a husband and struggling with alcoholism.

So I'm like, all right, it's on me. I just want to take a second. There's a lot going on, man. Yeah, it's overwhelming. Yeah. Everyone's deal with some fucking shit. Thank God Chris is like the kindest, most amazing human on the... I mean, the man is now a death dula.

Whoa. And he leads men's retreats and he's a holotropic breathwork instructor and a Buddhist. It's really annoying for a control freak like me. Sure. A college roommate calls and says, hey, somebody's putting on some event in San Francisco. They want a speaker that can talk about career change. And you've changed your career a lot.

So I thought about you. That's not a compliment, by the way. Right, right. You can say you're someone that can't stick with anything. I thought of you. Now, meanwhile, nobody really knows anything about how much we've been struggling. I've never told anybody except for Chris about this 5, 4, 3, 2,1 thing. Because I kind of feel like maybe God gave me a secret trick, and it's magic.

Yeah. Well, here comes to superstition. Yeah, like, all enchanted. You know, like, you can do this thing. Exactly. Only I'm controlling myself. And they said they don't pay, but they're offering two tickets to San Francisco and two nights at the St. Regis Hotel. Now, by the way, guys, we're still $800,000 in debt.

We still have liens on the house. So it is in that moment that I say yes, not thinking about the fact that I have to give a speech because I've never given a speech on a stage before because it sounds like a free vacation. My parents come and visit. We get out there. And it's only when we step on the stage that I'm like, oh, my God, there's people here. Right, right. If you watch that TEDx talk, look closely at a minute.

And I have that neck rash that people get on a few bars. I have a high-be kind of panic hives. And this thing was not about the five-second rule. I just made up a bunch of stuff about how to achieve your goals. I forgot how to end it. And I have this moment where I look out at the audience, minute 19, and there's this distinct pause. And I have that, like, I just poop my pants expression.

And I say, oh, there's this thing I do. I call it the five-second rule. Oh, yeah, like out of a panic. The moment you have an instinct to act, you got to move within five seconds, so your brain will kill it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. If you have questions, here's my email address, and I left the stage.

It was later edited out, luckily. I had to write to them. Yes. It's not advisable to give your email on a TED Talk. Oh, I thought you meant. This is also one of the first ever TEDx conferences ever, and you want to know full circle moment. I'm going to San Francisco on Monday to speak at Salesforce's Dreamforce conference, and I just

realized I will be back in that auditorium for the first time. Oh, no kidding. That is giving that speech in 2011. You might blurt out another nugget. Yes. Let's hope you panic. You do well when you panic. Very much so.

So a year goes by and nothing happens. And then they put that talk online. So now it's 2012. Now another year goes by and it starts to go viral on Facebook. So now we're talking in 2013, you guys. I am busy working a full-time job. Chris is working on his sobriety. He is working on starting his next chapter.

He is getting certified in these things. he's doing his own healing. Our family is finally starting to feel, okay, we're paying our bills. We are starting to get the liens off the house. Like, this is not glamorous. It's just functional. It's functional.

And keep in mind, this is five years, no, six years since discovering this 5, 4, 3,2 one trick. I'm just a normal person in my life. And people start to call and ask me if I will come do that talk. And I'm like, what talk? I don't even know it's online. Okay, right. And they're like, wait, you were in San Francisco?

And they're like, no, no, I saw it in Facebook. Facebook. It's on Facebook. And then people start to write to me from all over the world. Mel, I've lost 100 pounds using 54321. Wow. No, 54321 is the single most effective thing in sobriety circles, in addiction. Great, because I was going to ask this at the very end.

But it's interesting that it already was happening. How are you with your self-esteem and your own issues able to receive that kind of information. I have always felt, without this sounding like I am some super stuck up full of herself, I feel the weight of responsibility for being the messenger of something that is really not truly about me, but it's in service of something else. I've had more than a thousand people write to us. The first time it happened was in 2016 to say that they had stopped themselves from committing suicide by remembering 5-4-3-2-1 and reaching out for help. Amazing.

And we've heard from so many medical professionals who have reached out in clinical settings about how this is so effective with kids for OCD, it's so effective in treating addiction, it's so effective for treatment-resistant depression because so much of what you have to do. And my husband, Chris, is somebody who has struggled with treatment-reistant depression. resistant depression. I think one of the reasons why he's alive is he does meaningful work and he meditates every day and he exercises every day and he's of service and he has figured out how to build a habit of not allowing that heaviness to lie to him. You know with CBT therapy and DBT therapy and all of it, it is really about the action going first and the action

creating the new neuropathways and the new habits and the new belief systems, because the action, if you're getting out of bed or you're exercising or you're engaged in the community or you're paying your bills on time, the action proves that you're not the person that you used to be. Yeah, it's the counterfactual to your dumb narrative. Correct. And so I just happened to be the person that got the message that this little 5,4, 321 countdown technique helps you override that bias of really thinking you need to feel a certain way

before you do the things that you do. Yeah. I'm sure you also don't feel fraudulent because you didn't. You experienced it and you were like, this works. I mean, you did make it up, but you had proof of it. But what I didn't know, Monica, is I didn't know why it worked. And so as people started to write to me, what I didn't feel equipped to do was to explain why. And at this point, I had an incredible job.

as a legal and social commentator on CNN, and I had access to all these incredible experts around the world. And so when you email somebody, hey, I'm Mel Robbins, worked for CNN, they're like, oh, yeah, I'll talk to you about habits. And so I then took on this project, not because I thought I'd write a book, but because I didn't know how to answer people's emails.

Right, right, right, right. Because I was working full time. I'd come home at night, I'd put our three kids to bed, and then I would open up the inbox or the messages on Facebook, and there were all of these messages from people around the world saying,

I saw that thing and, you know, I have a question. I'm like, I don't know how to answer that. Let me go talk to an expert. And so I started just to be able to talk to people and provide more resources to investigate why does this thing work. It sounds like you rose to the occasion that was given to you. I had a therapist who said people change in life for two different reasons. One is you want something and you are willing to change to get the thing you want.

What also can happen to people is you can be given something and you have to change to keep it, or you will lose it. And this weirdly just feels like it sits in that camp. All of a sudden, unbeknownst to you, without any game plan to be in this position, you find yourself in a position where people are asking you a lot of questions and relying on you and you're like, okay, I got to have the goods to warrant this. Yeah, and I also have a responsibility if I've put something out in the world that people are using to be able to explain to people why it works.

The thing for me is I didn't know that there was a business around this. Because I'm still trying to pay my bills. What I love about what you said is that you have to kind of rise to the occasion to keep the things that you want. What I wanted to keep was my sanity, my house, my family, my marriage. The most fundamental, yes. But also, I'll add in, though, we have the illusion that the degree from Dartmouth and the law degree and the income will give us self-esteem. And then if we're lucky enough, we discovered that esteemable acts give us self-esteem. So all this interaction with people who need help and service actually are creating real self-esteem for you.

So, like, sure, you don't have the other shit, but I would argue you're getting the thing that is hardest to get in the most valuable. So I think you're also experiencing something probably pretty revelatory in your life at that moment. I think the other thing, though, is I was starting to see myself change and become something. that I was starting to like and that I was starting to respect, not necessarily because of my interactions with other people, but because of my ability to be calmer at home, my ability to work through the anger, my ability to start to connect the dots on things in the past that were really still impacting me now in ways that I wasn't proud of. And so the more I started to become proud of the kind of person that I was

in terms of just the little things. Getting up on time, getting the kids to school, taking better care of my body, curbing the drinking, being kinder in my marriage, doing work on myself, looking in the mirror

instead of constantly pointing the finger out at the world or other people, lassoing my jealousy. Like I used to be such a freak of jealousy. If I saw somebody else winning, I felt like it meant I was loose. I think it's a very Michigan thing. When I go home, yes, when I go home and I love Michigan.

But when I go home, I'm like, oh, culturally there's a thing where it's like almost every story someone tells like this person who thought they had so much status tried to fuck with me and I said, fuck you and I walked. I'm like, almost every story ends with. And I told them to suck my dick. And you're like, wow, okay, pervasive less than feeling. I think that's true. Everywhere. I think it's human. You should spend a little time.

I think it's. What about in this city? This city has a lot of it. It's interesting about that, although we did not have the swing state thing, because I remember growing up in Michigan. It's why the politics being so divisive today is so confusing, because when you grow up in a state like Michigan, everybody seemed to kind of believe in the same things. It was so middle of the road. Right. No one was extreme at all. Oh, my God, no. Yeah. It's so confusing to see the way things are now. And I personally think it's a giant illusion.

But I think a lot of that's gotten worse because come September, October, November. anybody that lives in Michigan is just the entire phone and television and it's all political ads from the coasts yeah yeah yeah yeah and so people also have that entrenched sense of stop talking down to me stop telling me what to think and i could just make a historical argument which is this isn't silicon valley it's not like the brain trust moved there for employment this is the people from the south in kentucky moved up for labor jobs and then we had unions so it's like the union against the man. There's a lot of built-in cultural pride, real stuff that has driven this proletariat pride

and fuck the brass. It's a town of industry. I had a lot of that in me, I think. Yeah, me too. I think a little dose is good. Yeah, I'm like, fuck you. Like, I literally would love my best friend, but by God, if she were renovating her kitchen. Fuck that bitch.

And then she put in the marble. Did she say on Pinterest more? You know, and you're like, holding it. together and then, you know, I don't know if you've ever had that tour where somebody takes you on the tour of their house and they give you the wine and you're like shaking it like this and you got that look on your face. This looks like a restoration hardware store. And then if you're like me, you hold it together, but then you're so immature that you get in the car and you turn to your poor spouse and you're like, why couldn't you be in finance? What's wrong with you?

Why didn't you care about people? But you don't have that anymore. You do. Oh, I don't anymore. Because I now understand the fundamental rules about life. Exactly. That nobody can actually take something from you like that. The person standing in your way is you. Other people aren't blocking your way. They're actually showing you the way of what's possible. Yeah, life's unfair, and yes, people have unfair advantages.

But you will never, ever, ever, ever be able to convince me that a person with their attitude and their action cannot change their fortune, their circumstances, their mindset, their health, their kitchen, their profession. Yeah. Mine would rear itself in I would be evaluating what actors while I was in my nine years of trying to get an acting job. It was like, well, that person sucks. They don't deserve it. Yes. Under all that, now I realize, I don't think I'm good enough to do it. I mean, that's the reality is like I'm afraid I'm not good enough to get work.

That's my big fear. Well, I didn't start a podcast because I saw everybody else. I was like, oh, Dax and Monica are you doing it. What am I going to say? Fucking Jay Shetty, Monk. What am I going to say? I literally talked myself out of it for three years because I was just in that zone that it's already taken. Somebody beat me to it.

I'm too late. The world is scarce. There's not enough. This is very important to talk about an unpack because I do believe this sense that somebody's beaten you to it or because somebody else is doing it in their way. You now can't do it in your way. That this is one of the single biggest things that we do. to ourselves, and it is complete fiction. Whatever thing you think can't be done, someone's going to do it next week.

And here's what's worse. If you actually have a dream, it cannot be buried and it will haunt you for the rest of your life because it's meant for you. And so there is no amount of talking yourself out of that marathon you want to run or going back to nursing school or writing music or starting a podcast or writing the cookbook that you've always wanted to do, that dream is going to haunt you until the day that you die. And it is there because it is there to wake up something inside you. And your job is not to question it. It is to move toward it. And for too long, I turned other people into the problem. And I used other

people as the reason why I couldn't do the things that I wanted to do. Either they were going to judge me or they were going to do this or they've already done it or there's not enough room or they're going to think I copied them. And other people don't need to be a problem in your life. Yeah. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. But also, I feel like so much of it is the goal of the dream. Tell me more. If the dream is to do a podcast, you can do that. If the dream is to have the most successful podcast, that's when you're like, oh, well, I have nothing to say.

Oh, it's already too full. And, oh, there's no space for me. But if it's just for the process of doing it, that's why this show works. Because when we started, we did not think of it as a business. This was never going to be a business. It was a side project. That's honestly how you should start a podcast because most podcasts make no money.

Exactly. And we didn't think we're going to, and we didn't care. That wasn't the thing. It wasn't the goal, and that's how it happened. If the goal is success for anything or, like, the most successful, that's too much. No one's going to pursue something like that. You can't. You just have to decide, what do I want to just spend my days doing?

Nothing's going to get in the way of that. Yeah. And AA, we say we're in the show up and work business, not in the results business. It's like in keeping with that. Do the thing you have control over, which is make the podcast. Or go back to school or write the book. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes. Hike the Appalachian Trail.

Even thinking about it the way that you did, Monica, that the point of doing the thing is not the thing. It's that in doing it, there is something that comes alive in you. There is something about you that becomes interesting and interested again. It is a way to tap into a sense of vitality that I think is core to the human experience. Like, we are designed to grow and to change our whole lives. Our whole bodies are designed that way. And so when somebody says to me, I feel stuck, I'm like, great, that's a sign of something.

Just like when you're thirsty, it's a sign that you need water. When you're hungry, it's a sign that you need food. When you're lonely, it's a sign you need connection. When you're stuck, it is a signal from the DNA in your body that you are missing a fundamental element of the human experience, which is growth. And the way that you solve the experience that's very normal of being stuck is not to try to figure out your purpose. it's to literally just take on a project that helps you learn something. Yeah. And to grow a little bit.

And then in that, you bump into the next thing. You write the five-second book in 2015? 17. It becomes a big bestseller. And then you ultimately stumble upon the let them theory. Now, I was exposed to this by my wife and I both listened to books on tape out loud to go to sleep. And kind of just whoever starts at first, we're going to stuck with that one. So she was, of course, first in on this book, and she was listening to it next to me.

And so I was hearing it a lot. And, of course, my first thought was, and you're the first to acknowledge all this. This theory works and overlaps perfectly with Buddhism, with stoicism. There's a ton of AA in it, the serenity prayer. Yeah. Well, let's hear the theory for people who haven't heard it. Oh, great. So the fastest way to feel less stress, gain control, and have more peace in your life is to stop trying to control and change other people.

and let them be who they are, let them say what they're going to say, let them do what they're going to do, and take all that power back and focus on what you're going to say do in response. I mean, this is Victor Frankl's work, man, search for meaning, it's stoicism. Very Al-Anon. Yes, we've turned it into a modern tool, because the thing for me is, especially being married to a Buddhist, if you're somebody that tends to gruff the wheel of life,

somebody telling you to let go doesn't work. because when somebody tells me to let it go, I'm like, but I don't want to lose. I'm holding on because I'm pissed off about this. What do you mean I have to let it go? I don't want to surrender. And so what I love about let them and then let me, because it's four words. First you say let them. And that's a boundary that you set between you and other people and you in the outside world.

Any psychologist will tell you that the single biggest form of stress in your life is other people, because they're super annoying. Unpredictable. Unpredictable. Opin predictable. Opinions. They don't meet our expectations. They're offensive.

They're this. Unreliable. All of it. But the more you focus time and energy on things you can't control, the more out of control you feel. It just backfires. And so for years, I've known this, but I've never been able to apply it.

Talk about your son's prom. I think that's what sets off this journey. It does, but I have been on this journey for years. Okay. I have been trying to be less controlling. I have written articles about not caring about what people think. And then somebody that I'm close to says, is something that upsets me, and then all I do is care about what they think.

So I'll get upset about traffic or I'll be mad about something else. And then I can't remember what Seneca said and how to be stoic because I'm already stressed out. I'm back in the amygdala. You can't even access. Knowing what to do just makes you smart. The real superpower in life is how do you apply it in a moment where you're actually in amygdala land. So what happened for me is we've all said the words let them probably 10,000 times in our life. but this was a moment

where I was your typical mom we've all been at a high school dance with a mother and I was that mother because I'm trying to get the Christmas photo and I want the tie just right she's got to have a corsage yeah I buy the corsage even though the date doesn't want one

then we get to the photo thing yeah the date then has her own corsage and then we have a crusade like I don't even know her and then it's raining and then the kids want to go outside and then I'm like but we haven't taken the family photo and our daughter who lives out here in L.A. and happened to have very long almond-shaped nails at the time,

reaches over and grabs my bicep, piercing, basically, the skin through the shirt, and starts squeezing. And so there was something about the pressure here. Snapped you out of your... Oh, and her gritty, like, mom, you're being annoying. Right. Let them.

And she started saying, let them, let them, let them, like it was a chorus in a song. And I just felt my shoulders drop. And even though I've even talked about this concept, why do I care about this? Let them. What a novel way. But here's the interesting thing. So I started talking about it. We did a podcast episode about it. It explodes. And I'm like, oh my God, I've got to write a book. It's another 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 moment. And I'm also feeling like, I've seen this once in my life. And it's not like I'm like, I've got a unbelievable bestseller.

It's like, this is something that needs to be put in the world at a moment where the world is spinning off its access. And there is this unprecedented feeling of overwhelm and fear and darkness. And I can't control what's happening. My kids are full of anxiety. AI is coming. The headlines are terrifying. And so people are then shrinking and we're gaslighting ourselves and saying because this feels out of control, I have no control, which is not true. You have so much control and so much power if you recognize that you do and you act accordingly. And so I wrote the first manuscript. It was horrible. Okay. Because the whole thing was like, let them, let them, let them, let them, let them, let them. Yeah, how many times can you say? Oh my God. And there was a lot of research in it,

but I knew something was missing. And my daughter who had been working for a big cybersecurity firm, and so she's like an Excel spreadsheet on legs. Her brain is like that. She was home. The one thing in life that she knew that she never wanted to do was work with me. And she had just quit her job and had gone backpacking through Asia for five months alone, which is her dream, mother's worst nightmare. Yep. But she came back, broke, moved in with mom and dad. Oh, huh.

What a blessing. Yes. Because it turns out I have a dream, too. And my dream was to always have a family business. Because you know what those are. And so I said, Dura, listen, you need money. I need research help. You don't even have to talk to me.

You can talk to this person in our company. How about you take four weeks, and I want you to really analyze, not what people love about this. Because now all of a sudden, this has exploded already. Therapists are writing articles. We're inundated with questions about it. People are taking it on. I love it. You don't have to read the book.

You don't have to buy the book. You will be able to use this just listening to this. And that's what I love the most. You can explain it to your kids. You can explain it to anybody. It's all of ours because it is a modern version of the truth about life. It belongs to no one and everybody. And so she came back in 36 hours with a 28-page color-coded Excel spreadsheet with drop-down tabs.

Does she do methamphetamine? I literally said to her with. Dex, I said, how much Adderall did you take? And she said, you can't write the book. And I said, why? She said, because people are saying they love it, because you feel superior. You know, when you start saying, let them, and you realize your siblings never call you back, You're the one that makes all the plant.

Let my siblings. Of course, the let them part, you rise above, you feel the superiority. That's helping you detach from emotion. But then you're sitting with the reality. And the reality for a lot of us is I'm in a job where I don't feel appreciated. I am in a family where I make a lot of effort and I don't feel it's returned. I have friends that I don't feel reach out. Yeah, you saw friends on a vacation on Instagram and you got resentful.

The first step was like, yeah, let them be on the trip. And then the second part, I have to give credit to my co-author Sawyer. She said there has to be a second part because people are lonely. And there is no way, Mom, you can put something out in the world that makes people superior and lonely. There has to be a second part. And I'm like, well, what the hell is the second part? She said, well, let me.

It's where you then have to prompt yourself. That power in relationships and all change comes from you. It's not about managing and changing other people. If you don't like what you see in the world or in your relationships, stop trying to change everybody else. Yeah, there's two variables. You only have control over one of the variables. Yes, and it's you. So I like how you say, though, it's like if I want to be on that trip, I need to get my business life under control so that I think I have the freedom.

I need to reach out more. I need to get myself there if that's what I want. Because what happens when you say the let me part is you are forced to question what are my values. So let's take the example of family. because my favorite thing about the let them theory is it doesn't actually cut off relationships. It forces you to operate with acceptance, which creates a space for actual connection. We've been so busy trying to change and control one another, especially in families and marriages and friendships, that we're not actually loving each other. And what I have learned in using let them and let me is that I deeply value family.

I deeply value my 29-year marriage with Chris. I deeply value my connection with my kids and my friends. If I value it, then it's on me. And I had to come to terms with the fact that I was a very tit-for-tat person. Like, we all have friends that keep score. I did this. I've invited you three times. You're not inviting me.

I keep calling my brother. He never calls me. Well, let him. And now let me ask myself, does family matter to me? Yeah, what are my values? Because regardless of what theirs are, it doesn't matter. And then that way, you're reaching out not out of obligation. You're reaching out not in order to keep score.

You're reaching out not because you think you should. You're reaching out because you want to. Because it makes you feel like a good sister. It makes you feel like a good mother. It's who do you want to be in this life? Yes. And the same thing's true about the world around us. Like the stuff that's going on in the headlines, it's already happening.

And so let them isn't just allow it. Let them is radical acceptance because it forced. you to recognize the truth of what's happening. And then you say, let me ask myself, what do I value? And where do I want to put my time in energy in terms of trying to change things for the better? Yeah, it marries so concisely two of my favorite tenets of AA. One is acceptance is the answer to all of our problems, right? And that fuck, it's painfully true.

I think people's hurdle and barrier with let them is they associate it with surrender. If I say, let them be rude or let them, you know, whatever thing you've decided, that somehow that's a surrender. But I would argue you need to walk that further down the path. So if you don't do that and you continue to resent and have poison in your belly about this person, that's victory? You actually have to question what is victory. If surrenders defeat, what is victory? You being agitated all the time and consumed with what everyone else should be doing? That can't be victory.

So let's just start by like, we've got to define what victory is. Victory for me is peace and serenity. So it's not a surrender to me to get to peace and surrender to me. It's actually the outcome. It's the opposite. I want to unpack real quick because I think this is one of the most important things and ways you can use it. And that is, how do you use this with people that are very challenging or very disrespectful? Because the fact is it's easy on Instagram to write about cutting people off.

But most of us have somebody in our families that are very challenging. Probably multiple people. Yes, and we don't want to cut them off. We just wish that we could get along. We wish there wasn't so much tension. And one of the most beautiful things about the let them theory is that it forces you, perhaps for the first time, to see people as they are and as they're not. If you have somebody in your family who has a narcissistic personality style, they've been like this forever. You don't need to brace going into family interactions because you're going to let them.

You already know it. You already know it. And part of the tension comes from you wishing it were different and hoping it's going to be different. Yeah, a different expectation. Yes. So when you align yourself with reality and not fantasy, you now have literally leveraged all the research every psychologist talks about, which is just not feeding it. Let them. I know what I'm walking into.

Now, let me make sure that I've checked my energy. Let me decide what conversations I engage in, how much time I give or not. How long do I want to be around it? How long do I want to be around it? Let me also just remind myself, why am I going? I'm going because family does matter. And I'm going because it's important that I go to this, even though that person's going to be there because it just creates more, whatever.

And I'm more powerful than that person anyway. And so that's one really important thing. And the other thing that's really important that people really, when you recognize that you're like, oh, my God, is that it doesn't mean you're allowing disrespectful behavior. when you say let them and somebody is being verbally abusive at work, you're not allowing it. You're recognizing that this is what this is. And you're also recognizing you don't change disrespect by trying to change the person who's doing it to you. You change disrespect by respecting yourself enough to get out of that job or to have different

boundaries in that relationship. So many of the relationship problems, particularly in dating, are because you literally excuse away behavior and live in a fantasy about who this person is instead of accepting the reality that the way that people treat you is how they feel about you.

And they're not going to change because people only change when they're ready to change for themselves. You're the one who has to change if the relationship is going to change. So I love this because it forces you to recognize what's in your control and recognize the reality

of the situation you're in and also recognize that the power to change it is not with them, it's with you. Right. If you continue to stay the course with how you respond, you're going to get the same outcome at infinitum. That's just how it is. There's two of you, you interact in this manner, and they're not going to change. So unless you want the same outcome for eternity, you only have one option. And the fact is, somebody who's bad for your mental health is not your soulmate. And there's a lot of explaining a way that we do of really crappy behavior.

instead of forcing ourselves to see somebody as they are and as they're not, and then ask ourselves, is this enough for me? This is also in keeping with limitations. I think something that's helped me a ton is understanding people's limitations and thinking of them as that. It's not that they don't want it. They can't. If you start thinking about people's character defects as they actually can't change them,

it is very liberating because there's nothing you can do to get them there. It's an impossibility. And it's also not personal. Exactly. This is who this person is. Exactly. And they react like this with everybody. So I get to choose how much time personally I spend on this.

I had a moment of this in my 20s. I had to do this with a dude I loved. This really good friend, fuck this girl that I had been like tragically in love. We had this terrible breakup. It was just a messy, unresolved, most chaotic breakup I ever had. And then I find out one of my best friends is falking her and is in love with her. and I'm, like, really upset about it. And I'm not going to be friends with him anymore.

And I just had this moment in my 20s where I was like, I think it can help you just actually accurately evaluate the whole thing, which is like, okay, this is who he is. He's going to fuck my ex-girlfriends. Do I enjoy hanging with him enough that it offsets that? If I accept that that's it forever, would I still choose to be friends with him and just to have no expectations of him in that regard?

And I was like, yeah, I like hanging out with him enough. and I don't really, because I've decided I don't feel like powerless or a victim, and it's just like, I evaluated it. Yeah, he's flawed in this way. It'll probably be more in the future. But does it offset how much I like being around him? Yeah. So I just need to be around him with appropriate expectations. This dude's probably going to do this again.

What I love about this is that it's the perfect example that illustrates that people do whatever they're doing. They fuck whoever they fuck. They think whatever they think. They believe whatever they believe, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're just doing their life. We're the ones that torture ourselves with all the weight of the expectation and the burden and all this stuff over here. And that example illustrates that you basically got on that teeter-totter and you said, what do I want to give weight to? And you recognize I do actually have power here.

I don't have to hate this guy because society tells me I have to. I could actually just say, okay, this is who this guy is. Do I still want in? And I do. Yeah. So it's on me. And you also could have said, and I don't. Yeah, absolutely.

Of course our options. Yeah, if his personality was a little less good, I would have said I don't. But, you know, talk about me. He had the leverage. He is so fun to be around. I need to have the right expectations. But that's an empowered choice. Yes, exactly.

And what's also interesting is people in your life probably questioned you because they couldn't understand. You're like, let them, let them question you. They don't have to understand your decisions because your decisions are not for somebody else. That's right. If I can have a relationship with this that no longer causes me this angst, I'm up for it. And again, there are other things that, no. I would have been like, yeah, I'm out, or they're not even that fun to offset that. But, yeah, I think you can be taught this lesson in a really hard way.

My example is, like, my father when he was dying of cancer, he also had gout. He had so much going on in heart disease. He had gout. He had the small cell car. It's like an old rusty car in Michigan winter. Everything's leaking out on the highway. I said he needed to frame off restoration, like just dump everything. But anyways, he is in bed the last three months with the gout because his feet were so swelled up.

He expressed a desire to get out of bed before he dies at the way. this cancer. So there's a specific diet one should be on, right? And I was monitoring that and I left the hospital to go do something. And I came back and they were clearing this fucking, he had a big bacon cheeseburger while I was gone. And I was livid, right? I'm like, damn, what the fuck?

You want to get out of bed? You say to eat a fucking bacon cheeseburger the second I leave. We got in this terrible fight, wasted this very finite amount of time I had with him. And after his dad, I was like, what a waste of my time. My dad was a dude who would eat bacon cheeseburgers when you turned your back. That's why I ended up in this situation. He wasn't going to hit the fucking finish line become a different dude?

Yeah. What was I thinking? I still had the illusion, right, that I could make him this person that would make him healthy. You were scared. Yeah. And then my stepdad started dying of cancer

and I went into going like, whatever this motherfucker wants to do as illogical as it is or counterproductive to his health, we're going to go cool. You know, one of the coolest things about this, at least for me, in terms of now having used it all day long,

using it my marriage with our three adult kids. In using Let Them and Let Me, you reverse the wiring of what you actually put weight on. And you start to recognize how much power you have in your own life when you really focus on showing up in a way that makes you feel proud of yourself. You're not always going to get it right. But if you know your intentions, you clean up your messes, you recognize that other people, most people are not trying to hurt you. Most people are not trying to piss you off. It's really allowed me to operate with a level of grace and peace and compassion. And one of the other major things is Chris and I have been together for 30 years and through a lot of ups and downs.

And I heard somebody once say, second marriages are amazing. And I think they are, especially if it's with the same person. And when you really learn how to show up in a relationship, whether it's with your parents or yourself or your partner or your kids, and you can create this space of acceptance, seeing people exactly as they are like the story with your dad. My dad's the kind of guy that just hammered a cheeseburger with bacon when you turn around. The second I left the room.

Right? And then you're like, let him. That's who he is. I get to choose whether or not I love this person that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If he had changed at the very end, that else would have been sad. It's like, why did you do this earlier? Literally after he's died, I was like, good for him.

I'm glad to eat that fucking cheeseburger. He didn't have anything else. else going on. He should have eaten a thousand cheese burgers. He wasn't going to reverse this. Yeah. Well, Mel, you're wonderful. You're so fun. And you do Michigan, very proud. And I do feel a kinship with you, a sibling kinship. I think it's awesome. I'm such a fan. Are you guys? Well, I wish you luck with everything. And everyone truly, truly, truly should read, let them. What a success. 6.2 million. It's the best selling. It was the best selling of any genre on Amazon last year. It's the best-selling help book of all time. It's fucking awesome. I'm so happy for you. You know what I'm happy about?

I'm just happy people at this moment in time are interested in reading or listening to something that will help them not turn away from life, but actually turn back toward it. That, to me, is a very hopeful thing. And I'm also thrilled for your success because it means that people that don't have a lot of time are making time to listen to a show

that reminds them of their better nature and that also connects them to the resources, tools, and experts that help them tap into it. So I'm grateful that you do what you do. Thank you. This has been wonderful. Thanks so much for coming. Come back. Yeah, come back to here. Please come to Boston.

Say something crazy at the end, so that'll be your next book. Oh, what the fuck? Always pull your three times. I don't know. I just say. Hi there, this is Hermium Permian. If you like that, you're going to love the fact check with Miss Monica. Where'd those shoes come from?

I ordered these. Anna and I ordered these. Well, she got black ones. Okay. But, um, so they arrived at Honest's house, so she brought them today. Oh. But I was wearing other shoes, but Kristen is going to wear them to her thing. She's going to wear the shoes you were just in.

Yeah. Oh, my God. A midday shoe swap. It just happened. Now, that's an interesting proposition because you're putting on shoes that are warm with someone else's foot warmth. Mm. Mm. cool do you think they were damp at all did you sweat in them at all i i was wearing socks oh okay then

that's not going to be an issue but it still might be i don't think so she loves my sweat i doubt you're sweating through your socks and getting the shoe damp do you think i doubt too because guess what i'm freezing pop off your shoe no now this i took my socks off for these how come um i don't know oh okay interesting decided to because um these are smaller Okay. So, like, the other shoes are, which is why they fit her. They're a little bit, a tiny bit big on me. So a sock is nice.

It fills it out. Surely. She didn't wear a sock. She went raw dog. Yeah. On the warm damp loafer. Yeah. What a gangster.

My sweat is great. But how would you feel about putting on a warm damp shoe? If it was hers, I'd be fine. Well, that reminds me that this was so unfortunate. But we were shooting to get chips greenlit. We made like a self-financed five-minute kind of trailer for it. Like sizzle. A sizzle reel.

So no permits out in the middle of Angeles Forest. We only had one set of leathers between us or the leathers had to match. Whatever the case was. Leathers, tell people what letters are. Full leathers that you would ride in at the racetrack. It's the suit that motorcyclists wear. Yeah, it's like from chin down to your ankles. Yeah.

And, you know, it was hot as Hades, and I had been filming a bunch, and then DeCastro had to get into my leather. That's tough. I mean, that might be the hardest core thing I've ever seen anyone do is get into wet leathers. Yeah, you don't want that. You want red leather, yellow leather. Red leather, yellow leather. But, yes, when I go to the track, it's always very, very hot. And in between sessions, when I pull that thing off, it is just like someone sprayed a hose in there.

Yeah. So as sweaty as I've ever been, is in that suit. I bet. I mean, tight leather, yeah. Yeah, what are you going to do? It's like Ross's pants. Some people will understand that. He had loud pants, right?

Do I know this? He had these black leather pants. And they were squeaky and loud? Too tight, right? They got too tight. Okay. He took them off to go to the bathroom and he couldn't get them back on and he was on a date. Oh, why did he take him all the way off to go to the bathroom?

I think he did it to air. It was so tight and he had to air him, air. out interesting motivation okay and then he couldn't get him back on and he calls joey and joey tells asked if there's any like you know lotion or anything lubricant yep and then he he tries and no you know won't come on and then he says joey recommends that he make himself a pair of pace pants pace pants well i'm skipping some stuff how did it resolve it didn't spoiler he had to come out holding his pants in front of his privates and and um the date ended. Did you see any skin in that? Because in these sitcoms, you almost never see any skin.

I think he's wearing underwear. Was it exciting to see, uh, swimmer's legs? Gosh. Schwimmer's ear. You know what's funny is I don't remember that being exciting because the comedy was just so good. It was so front and center that it inoculated you from PQ's. He was so good at physical comedy on that show. Didn't get that much, uh, one day. I didn't get much credit. I think when I'm, like, terminal and I announce I'll be in hospice, you know, and I've just got some months to, you know, be on drugs and lay in a bed. I might consume the whole thing then.

I might be saving it to the very end, which would, that's maybe the best way to view it. Like the last thing you saw before you died. Yeah. Oh, okay. So he's got a, thankfully he's got a very long button up shirt on. So it's covering and masking a lot of his private. Yeah. And do you see the paste?

I do. And I go straight to the leg. Because I'm not, the comedy isn't so present. Mind you, listener, Rob has put a picture up of the scene. Yeah. So I go straight to the legs. But you do look at that and you go, this is something comedic's happening. Yeah.

Yeah. Of course. And it was. It was hilarious. Indeed it was. This was a New Year's episode, resolutions. How much would you pay to be able to watch it all with a clean slate? Oh, great question.

Thank you. Oh, my God. 45 mil. $45 million. Okay. Yeah. What if there was a procedure? That's a good, that's a fun thought experiment.

There's a procedure that can pinpoint a memory and erase it just so you can re-consume something. But I guess in doing that, you would erase the wonderful feelings you had surrounding that. I would never be able to do that because the reason memories are impactful is because they're perfect storms. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're hitting you at the right time and right moment to be impactful. So if I erased it and then I started it again now, I might be like,

collapsed if we remove those. Exactly. This is a black mirror. Yeah. Interesting. And then what happens, like what happens to the interview we did with Jennifer Aniston and Lisa Kudrow? Like they don't get erased.

They still exist on it in our reality. That's strange. Okay. Yeah. And in fact, when you would listen back, you'd be like, I don't even know that girl. I don't even know what that reference is about yourself. You're like, what's she talking about when she said, you ran down?

I would I say she because it's still me. You'd be looking at you. Yeah. And you're like, she. But you had a couple, you dropped a couple of references, one about Ross running down the street or something. And he was mob. He was mob. I mean, he was mugged, mugged, thank you.

Yeah, by a mob. But not really just one. By Phoebe. Bivey was a mugger in her youth. She had a tough childhood. Oh, wow. That's unexpected from what I little I know about the archetype of Phoebe. I would erase the jinx and then rewatch it.

Ooh. But again, that was like so fun at a certain time. Well, that's what's interesting. Can you erase just the content and not the feeling of laying on the couch in the old house and watching it? Because I'd like to hold on to that, but just like I don't know what we're watching. I just remember it being fun. I think it's too tricky. You have to, it's all or nothing.

So in that case, there's nothing I would want to remove and start over. Six cents? Maybe Harry Potter. There you go. I wish I could reread. Although, like, again, I'm older now. Maybe it wouldn't have the same impact. It wouldn't.

You know, Larry Trilling is on, I guess what would be this week's episode of Mom's Car. Uh-huh. And Larry Trilling is really, well, he has impeccable taste. and so he's made lists of movies. He made a list of 100 movies that he thinks people should see. Great, I want it. You should, Eric got it from him,

and he's been going through it with Lily. And he's like, this is the greatest list. Like, everyone should have this list. So when I was interviewing him, I was like, I wanted to talk about lists and I wanted to name like five of the best this and that. And he said, well, I have a very specific criteria for what I say makes.

I'm not saying they're the best. best cinematic movies i'm not saying they're historically this but he had this criteria it was really interesting and he has an overarching theory that like you have a sweet spot between 15 and 22 where the movies you see in that period as you're like forming your identity are going to have a weight and a resonance that no other films will ever have yeah um i mean not for me mine goes a little bit younger but still but yeah whatever maybe for boys instead you guys are ahead of us a little bit and maybe you in particular were when did you have when did you have when did you get your menstrual cycle i'm trying to think of a tactful way to ask that um my flies ever there

is a tag for the first arrival of the flies yeah was um seven no uh i was in seventh grade so 12 so i was 12 okay yeah so i think that's on the earlier side i do too and what what old were what old were you what age were you when um goodwill hunting goodwill hunting came out uh eighth grade so right on after you were yeah you were you were burbling yeah my hormones were yes so one of his things is like what cultural relevance did it have like did it kind of take over culture in some way but just the seminal things what made me think of that so yes my my hunch is given my conversation with larry that even for me as hard as it is to imagine that if i saw raising arizona for the first time in my 50s, it's simply not going to be, again, I was in probably seventh grade when I saw

Raising Arizona. It's not going to have the same impact. What is this world here? Yeah, I think if you removed me watching either friends or Goodwill Hunting, if you removed both of those, I disappear. I'm not a person. You also got to consider the devil's advocate. Maybe you would be like the CEO of Snapchat.

I'm already the CEO. of a big company, and I feel good about it. I guess there's a version where your life is better without it. I don't think so. You don't think it might have set the bar so high with your boyfriends? No, I don't. I think it taught me what I want. And also, for me, better.

Better is an interesting word. I don't think there's a way my life could be better. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are ways that could be different and equally good. Or easier. Sure, maybe, yeah.

There are, yeah, there are different paths that are probably equally good. Yeah. But I don't think my life could be better, no. Very, very lucky and happy. I don't think mine could be better either. I was thinking of regrets the other day. Mm-hmm. And I generally don't have them.

Yeah. And then I thought of, I have a single regret. Ooh, share. And it's that I wish I could love, I wish I could have loved my dad as much while he was alive as I do now. And I wonder if that's a common regret for people who lose parents. I'm sure it is. Like I've made a ton of mistakes and I've hurt people and I've done bad things. And they're not regrets.

Really? No, they're like, I am. I'm sad they happen, but I feel like they had to happen. Like, they had to happen. If I don't fuck enough people over, I don't feel guilty enough and shame-rendled enough to get soap. You know, like if I just, if I have an addiction that has no wreckage, then somehow I don't end up sober. And I could really evaluate my whole life that way. It's like if I don't make those mistakes, I don't end up.

Yes, that's right. But there's nothing about not loving my dad while he's alive as much as I do now that took me in any direction I needed to be taken. nor do I think it, you know, I don't see any benefit whatsoever other than I could have given him a lot more. There's just no way to know. That's why regrets are problematic. Like, there's no point in going down that road because you don't know. Also, like, you did love him a lot. Oh, I did.

I did. Yeah, maybe now it's that you, it's just now that he's gone, you don't have the hard, the hard, the hard, the hard. relationship part is over. Yeah. And the hard part about him are over. The challenges are gone. So yeah, you're going to, you're going to think of him in a much different way. But when he's here and real, he's a real person with real issues.

That's 100% true. Obviously, like, your memory is rose-colored in a very generous, kind way. Yeah. But I have realized things through being a parent. Mm-hmm. that have changed what I think about them. I've just realized a lot of stuff that I know even that same person that it was challenging, I would have just, I feel like I'd have a lot more grace with and understanding and less judgment.

I don't think I was so judgmental of it. Oh, my God. Just shamefully judgmental of him. Yeah. So I think the things that I've like learned over the last 12 years, You have changed dramatically, my overarching opinion of them. Yeah, but you wouldn't have been able to have that without having kids, probably. But that's the sadness.

Like, I think if he had lived long enough, I could have gotten to this point. Right. Well, then that's not a regret. That's a wish. That's a sadness. You wish he could have lived long enough for you. Yeah, I guess I can't regret not learning a lesson that only having kids in time will teach you. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. But it is regrettable, I guess. I understand. Yeah. Do you have any regrets? Um, I don't know if I believe in them.

Like, I have fleeting regret. Like, you know, things will come through my brain that I'm like, I wish I didn't do that or I wish, you know, whatever. But, um, but as a, on a, as a whole at this stage, I don't think so because, again, everything informs who you are and I don't think I, would be the same person yes if um life hadn't gone this way i hadn't made all these decisions made all these mistakes yeah whatever yeah and i again i like my life i like who i am too so i yes sorry not sorry sorry not sorry not even sorry not sorry um reese speaking of yeah uh witherspoon i guess yes reese witherspoon for for those who have been asked How the challenge, she gave me a challenge on air.

Yeah. And I told her I would do it. Yeah, yeah. And then a lot of people have been texting and asking, how's that going? Did you do it? Are you doing it? And I said, well, look, she didn't give me her phone number. Uh-huh.

So I don't really have to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then got a little text this morning. And it was a check. And it was like, how are we doing on the challenge? Yes, it was she. Remind people, what was it? want a month you had to do?

So I kind of forget. I feel like it was a lot. It was like three. It was three in the next month, I think. Yeah. No, no, no. In the next three months, maybe. I mean, I don't remember.

Okay. But we should probably get the rules if we're going to try to. We probably do need the rules. She texted, she said she liked the episode, which was really lovely. Let's see what she said. Yeah, let's find out. You know what I'm going to ask. Oh, wow.

Yeah. She's a taskmaster. She is. Yeah, it's very type A. She says, have you asked? anyone out in the past few weeks, question mark, hashtag accountable. Oh, no. I loved it.

This is also what I love about her. Like, she's no nonsense. She is, she. She's going to get it done. She's going to get it done. And it reminded me. You're going to be married by Christmas, all thanks to Reese Witherspoon. Literally, it reminded me when we had Mindy on.

I forgot about this. Okay. We had Mindy on and Mindy said Reese, because they worked together on that movie. Reese was like kind of the one that told Mindy, like, kind of shitter get off the pot my words not neither of those with kits oh okay because Mindy was like

maybe I don't know and Reese was kind of like it do it now yeah do it if you want to do it you need to do it now and she did pull the trigger and then she won't stop Reese is all these Indian girls fairy godmother oh wow I didn't even realize the I didn't put together the pattern

yeah she is our white fairy godmother and making moves yeah wow She walks the walk. It was in the next three months. I want you to ask out three different people. Okay. There we go.

So I feel like I have some time. Because I think I would have thrown a flag at three in one month. That's too ambitious. I can't agree to that. You know, the odds of you just running into three strangers that you would want to go on a date with in a month, that's a high. That's too high. You'd have to be, we'll be the perfect place for that. Maru.

For me, Maru is a good start. For me, New York City. When I'm in New York City, do you feel this way in New York City? When I'm in New York City, I think, well, I was single once in New York City while doing baby mama. And it was so fun because you just meet so many people walking around and it's so social. And I think that would be my spot. You were excited to fuck. Like, I like fucking, yeah.

No, I know. But I'm just saying like I, this is for meeting. This is for like. I still need to like the person I was going to. No, you don't. Okay. In some cases, I didn't have to. But if I'm like going to meet someone socially and then.

chat all night and then end up in that position, I'm not, I'm not suffering through, I'm not that type of degenerate, sex addict. Sure. I'm like, you know, elevated, elevated sex addict. Yeah, I need to, I need to, there needs to be some personality spark happening. I just like, I already, I already feel like, oh, New York, I can't do New York because they live in New York. Oh, yes, no, this was a hypothetical.

Where do we think it would be easiest to meet three hot people in? In a month. Right, but I'm saying I wouldn't even ask, but I wouldn't even do this with them because like it's already a non-starter. They live there. I know. But I said, okay, so I did tell her, and this is true. There was a, I did chat with someone very briefly at outside of a coffee shop, not Maru.

Yeah. And this was someone who liked the show. Yeah. So they were talking to me. And they were cute. And I thought like, this person. person is cute. Yeah.

Maybe this is the time. I know I'm supposed to do this. Is this the time? But then I, I don't know how we got to this, but this person doesn't live nearby. Meaning they just live in a different part of the city? No. Oh, okay. They don't, it's not like they live in Santa Monica.

Which, that's a long distance relationship. I know. I know. Exactly. And this was even, this is further than that. Okay. And I was like, oh, you know, no. So I didn't do it.

And I also did get kind of self-conscious because I was like talking, you know, I was like talking and asking questions. And then he was like, well, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to take up your day. And I was like, oh, my God. He's like annoyed. I'm talking to him. Are you kidding? That was his insecurity. I feel like he was like ready to be done talking.

Oh, you have this backwards. I think he was ready to be done talking. He's like, oh, my God. She doesn't want to talk to me. I've already talked to her. She probably deals with this all the time. I'm going to relieve, I'm going to give her an out. What did you say?

I was like engaging. Yeah. So what did you say after he said that? I said, oh, you know, no, it was really nice. It was nice to talk to you. Okay. Say it to me. I'm you.

You're him. Okay. Well, no, like have, I don't want to take up your time or anything. Hold on. Was that his delivering? He's looking at his phone? I think. I don't think he was looking at his phone.

I kind of feel like. No. You left that out. He wasn't a dick. Okay. But I say it again. Say it again. Okay.

Yeah, I don't want to take up your time. You're not taking up my time. I got to go, though. Oh, okay, so I'm taking up your time. Then in that case, you should go. Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah.

But I won't say that. The last part or the part I said. The last part that you said. But the part I said was what you needed to say. The first part was good. The second part was defensive. No, that's because he turned on me. I know.

He had turned on me. And then I was like, no, you had that one. You misread that one. I'm not sure. Okay. There's no, again, like regrets, there's no way to know. Okay, well, hold on. This guy's out of the, he completely off.

Because if he listens to the show, maybe he's hearing this. I know, I hope not. Oh, my God, he's probably so aroused right now. He's probably married. I didn't ask that part. Okay. Was he wearing, you didn't look? I don't, I do forget to look.

Yeah, I never look either. Yeah. I'm bad at looking at that rings. Yeah. Anyway, I just, I think it's harder than people think. I think it's harder than you think. I think it's harder than Reese thinks. I did tell Reese.

I said, look, if you come across anyone in their 30s, send them my number. And then I said, or older. I'm not confident. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. No, you're very, you're intermittently competent. I know. It's confusing for everyone. You're not going to take my advice, but I already know what the hack is for you.

What? It's so simple because I witness it all the time. The second you decide the person's not an option for you, you have unbridled confidence. Yeah. So literally you have a mental trick that you have to play to yourself, which is like you're chatting with that guy and you just have to go like oh he's married and completely unavailable and then the side of you that is like bullishly confident would come out okay and then you guys would be on a date in marina del Rey you need seafood no so i think i was confident in that exchange

until until he didn't want to talk to me anymore then i was like oh my god this is so embarrassing. I think he was being polite and insecure. Keep the logical part of your brain sift through that. He came up to you to chat. No, we didn't come up. He just turned. Right. He engaged you. Yeah. Okay. You didn't engage him. No, I didn't. He engaged you. And so do you think you can really mount an argument that you're so boring in 30 seconds that he went from wanting to engage you to like, oh, God, get me out of this? That seems you would have to acknowledge. He wanted to say he was a fan, which he did okay and then he's like mission accomplished yeah because then I start oh what's your name

I start engaging so really I did start engaging he was just kind of like I do that uh-huh he was just being polite though what he was just being polite by saying that he didn't want to take your time it's very obvious that's what happened you guys weren't there neither you were there no but I don't believe and I think your logic could get you there that someone engaged with you and tired of it in 20 seconds, as opposed to you got insecure, oh, I'm fanning out, and this girl doesn't really want to talk.

And she's just being polite, and I'm putting in her a bad position. But he also kind of wasn't fanning out. Like, he was at first, he was like, oh, Monica, I love your show. I love, I listen to a lot of episodes. But he was also doing this kind of, like, like, he wasn't that interested.

So he's a playboy. Maybe. Maybe. Anyway, I guess I have three people. I got to engage with this. It's really reminding me of Monica and Jess. Of course. Obviously.

That's the last time I got challenged like this. And it worked. You did a bunch of stuff. I did do more. I did do more. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard.

Is it possible? I feel like I'm like trying to comb a tiger's hair right now. Like I want to comb this tiger's hair. She's a tiger has a knife. in her hair and I want to comb it out. I know. And I'm really afraid to get bit too. Because you don't want to get fit in the tiger.

I'm a nice tiger. Is it possible that you're taking this too seriously? Taking what? The whole thing. Like it's not that big of a deal. Like you ask someone out. Maybe it's good. Maybe it's not.

It's a two hour dinner. Like it's all in all, it's not a big deal. Like maybe just you have a little more lightness about it. Like it to me it feels like this. heavy rock that's on your shoulder doing this thing as opposed to like it's not that big you know it's like you could have maybe a sense of humor about it and it could be lighter oh oh the claws are retracting your comb is like well so i got to get this gum i got to get the gum out of your hair you're pulling you know you're yanking i got to get the gum out and it's not going to feel

great the whole time yeah and and guess what sometimes when you yank some tiger's hair they're They're going to get their claws out. Yeah. Okay. Now, what do you think of that? I think you have a point. Okay. I do think you haven't been rejected in a long time.

I don't think you've been rejected. Yes, I have. In life, many times. Every time. Can you? I almost have it. I almost have the gum. Can you tell me a time in the last 10 years that you asked someone out and they said, no, thank you.

Yes. But they have had a girlfriend. Okay, that doesn't count. I didn't. That doesn't count. Um, no, but I've had dates that you didn't like. Right, but also like I think they, I mean, not that I didn't like, but that I didn't really want to keep pursuing, but they didn't either. Well, look, you went on some dates and they weren't for you.

Who rejected you? He didn't really reject me, but the, I did go. on a date with... But you didn't like them. I didn't. Yeah. But... So that's not rejection.

But it still feels like it. I don't want to... Okay. We can stop. He also, I think at the same time that I was becoming uninterested, was becoming uninterested. Great. So that's a mutual.

That's not rejection. It still feels like rejection, though. But it wasn't because you rejected him. Well, it was mutual. yeah it was yeah so that's not i just don't think that's rejection you guys went on a date he said yes you went on a date or two and it and you guys weren't for each other that that's not rejection i know for me it feels like it's okay i honor that so i know this is my ish that i actually this came up recently not in not in connection at all to dating i find it very hard

hard knowing someone doesn't like me. Not necessarily, not attraction wise. Yes, not even romantic. Just like if someone is mad at me or if someone decides they don't like me. Yeah. Sometimes it's fine. If I know the reason, even if I probably disagree with the reason, I actually, especially if I disagree with the reason, then it is easy for me.

You accept it. I can accept it. Yeah, same. But when there's ire toward me that I can't understand, it really bothers me. Right. And I had therapy recently about an interaction. Uh-huh. And where I was like, this person just hates me.

And it is so uncomfortable for me. Uh-huh. And, you know, we had to sort of get to the bottom of it. And a lot of it is for me, like, if someone doesn't like me, then they'll exclude me from their club or their safe space, their area. Uh-huh. And I'll be alone and I'll be dead. Like, it's like it becomes safety so fast. Existential.

Yes. And, you know, she had to be, remind me. She got her comb out. Yes. Her comb is so gentle. Yeah, yeah. Well, she's a professional. And I'm a talk show host.

She uses, like, really good spray. And I don't even. She's got a great detain. I don't feel it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I... It's probably Lola V. Yeah.

And I'm a boy trying to get nuts out of the girl's hair. And I'm just not... You're doing a good job. Yeah, I mean... So she basically was like, you know, you have to remember is the person or the club or the thing that you're going to be excluded from when you want to be in. Right. And no is the answer. Like, no, I don't need acceptance from that person because I don't agree with that person on most things or I don't like the way that person operates or the people there are around.

No, I don't want to be in that club. Yes. I don't want to be a member of any group that doesn't want me. Right. But see, I normally have the opposite thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would never be the member of a club that would have me. Yeah, yeah.

I'm so used to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have to transition into, yeah, I don't want to be in that relationship anyway. I don't want to. So why do I want them to want me? Yes, yes, yes. So it's, you know, but it is safety and it is old. It's very old.

So it's a rewiring. Yeah. I do with the same thing, but it's more physical, you know. What do you mean? Like I, my work over the last 10 years has been. no one's going to try to physically hurt you. You don't have to protect yourself. Yeah.

And it's very hard to break. It's so hard. And we got into another layer of this. I have to be careful about what I say. Okay. But I do. Rob and I already think it's both about us. It is.

It's about the you. I do think I have a habit in general in my life, whether it's in, any kind of relationship, work, I put so much in, like, really give it my all, completely. And I do it subconsciously. It is not on purpose, but it's definitely subconsciously because I am trying to secure my place. Like, well, I put in this. You want to make yourself indispensable in every situation. I put in this.

So obviously they can't get wrong. rid of me or I've given all of this so obviously they can't get rid of me and that's not how life works it still happens I think that's even part of your protector thing which is a part of my protecting they'll need me because I protect them and they've noticed it yes and and that's not how life works and people don't owe you anything again I'm not doing it on purpose of course yeah I totally get it it's all in your subconscious yes but no one owes you anything. And so sometimes the people that you've, you know, thought in your head you've made

yourself indispensable or you've made, you've created a loyalty that must not be broken. Sometimes it does get broken. And then I am left feeling like so confused, so upended. Yeah. Like, and then, you know, there's this phrase, how could you after all I've done? for you. Right. And so we, you know, I wrote that phrase down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, I don't want to be a person that thinks like that. I don't want to think all, after all I've done for you. I don't want to be someone with strings attached. I think that's like the worst way to

relation with people. So I really need to be careful and watch myself because I, I don't mean to do it, but I think it happens. Right, right, right. I think it's common, which is why I'm saying it. And I think it's important to monitor. And she brought up the Allen on phrase, give for free and for fun. And I was like, yeah, that's like, you've got to remember that. And it's important. I do think I've had this is a very weird statement, but I do think I have the privilege and advantage.

Like, your friends were also really great students that went to a great college, who all got professional jobs and were largely quite. responsible. Yeah. And my friends were like regularly letting me down and fucking my girlfriend. And I was doing the same shit to them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think earlier in my 20s, I had to get a little better at like, yeah, I just going to love them.

Like, that's just how it's going to be. And, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like I do. Like I, in the moment, that is what it feels like.

Yes. It feels like it's giving for fun and for free. And then you start making your case. Your court case. You're stepping up to the stand. Yeah. And so that's the moment to remember it. Like that's not why you did any of this.

And they're making these decisions because of this. Yeah. And it's not about me. And that's it. Okay. So it's been, yeah, it was an interesting realization. I do think there is a little bit of a fairy tale we tell ourselves, which is like, this is permanent.

Yeah. I've invested and it's permanent. And it's not. Relationships are like sobriety. It's a daily choice. Yeah. And you just get that day. Yeah.

And it's not going to inoculate you in three weeks the work you did today. You know, if you don't do it on that day. So it's like, yeah, relationships are very much. I think I want them to be like, well, good. I prove myself. And now we're good forever. Yeah, exactly. And that's just not how they are.

They're living and dynamic and changing. Yeah. And it's kind of every day. I know. And you have to decide who gets that energy of yours, like who, yeah, yeah. And probably, like, expectations help a lot in that scenario. Yeah, it's hard. But also I do think I...

There's not a stitch of gum in that main now. You got it all about. I think I got it out. And it is like, you're not even feeling that I'm running the comb through. This tiger got its own gum out. Yeah, okay. Oh, I do want hairplay. Sure.

Yeah, nice. All right, let's do some facts. Okay. Okay, Mel. So, you said that the closest, like, high peak to Michigan is Killington. Another place I've been in, like. Okay, what do we count as, like, high peak? I'm going to say over 6,000.

Oh, okay. Okay. This is not. Is Killington even over 6,000? I think it is. Oh, I don't know. Rob, can you look? 4,229.

Okay, so we're not even close to six. We're going to have to make it 4,000 then I guess is the cutoff. Because when you Google it, like closest high mountain peak to Michigan, it says Mount Arvon. Where's that? Canada. In the UP. But it's only 2,000 feet. 22,000 feet.

Yeah, that's not going to cut it. Yeah. And there's skiing in the UP, and it's better than it is in the lower peninsula. In the LP? It's not, it's not a 25-minute run down the mountain. Do they call the L-P? Never. Oh, wow.

Yeah, they just call it Michigan. And if you're stuck in the UP, you have to distinguish that you're saying, I'm in the UP. Okay, well, now. As is appropriate. 99% of the population lives in the LP. So, okay, I just looked up all 50 state high point. in the U.S. and how to visit them. Okay, Alaska has.

Oh, let me, Denali. Yeah. And let me guess these. Okay. I'm going to say Denali is, I want to say, between 18 to 20,000 feet. 20,000. 20,000, 310. Good job.

Okay, great, great, great, great. Okay, California, we have a big one. Yes. In the southern Sierra Nevada. Sierra Nevada. Near Cress. Yeah, I'm going to say up there we get to 12-9 or 13. Mount Whitney, 14,498.

14-4. It's pretty good. Okay, okay. Okay. Colorado has Mount Albert. I'm going to go with 15-8. No, 14. Oh, wow.

14, 433. We're getting lower. So California's is. Yeah. I think Washington's got a 16,000 footer. I'm only seeing, I see Mount Rainier. Mount Rainier. 14,411 feet.

Oh, wow. So nothing's gotten into 16 yet. Yeah. Other than Denali. Yeah, we're getting. This is going down. Oh, we're getting smaller and smaller. Yeah, we have a Wyoming.

Wait, California of the second highest. California, too shay. I know. We got the ocean. We got the sand dunes. We got the beach. We got the snow. We got it all.

We got the lowest point in America, in Death Valley. Oh, wow. And the highest point in the contiguous USA. Wow, that's cool. Congratulations, California. Mount Hood. You know Mount Hood. Absolutely.

I think that's in the 13s. 11. Aye. Yeah. So embarrassing. Pugh. Really embarrassing. Wait, closest to Michigan.

Okay. No. Is New Hampshire close? Nope. Well, similar distance. Vermont. Oh, okay. Well, we're looking at an 11-hour car ride either way. Mount Washington is 6,288. That's in New Hampshire. What if they got scheme there? They probably do. And I do think it's, because when we go to Killington, you go through Canada. We would go up through Canada,

then down Niagara, and then over. We wouldn't go through Pennsylvania. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay. All right. You did a good job saying interesting. I know that's not interesting. Do you, whether we went the northern and southern route. Oh, I thought it was really interesting. And you did a really good convincing job of saying interesting. Oh, here's Michigan, Mount Arvon, 1,9 feet. It's not even 2,000. Georgia has a higher one.

Well, it's your highest. Stone Mountain? No, it's... 900 feet. It's called Brastown Bald. Well, probably in the northeast, getting into the smokey. Yeah, it's in the Blue Ridge. 4,784 feet.

That's nice. That's killing in size. Pretty nice. I don't think they're skiing. there. Um, all right. Well, that was a fun game. Yeah. Tammy Faye Baker, was she from Muskegon. Is that what you say? How do you say? Muskegon. Okay. No. Uh-oh. Okay. She's not at all. She's from Minnesota. Same death. But maybe she moved there. Hold on. Let's see. Her husband was born there.

Oh. Jim Baker? Ah, yes, Jim Baker in 1940. Okay. In Muskegon? Muskegon, Michigan. Okay, great. That answers that. He probably brought her there.

Yeah, maybe. What a team those two. Yeah. You're not old enough to really have been seeing them on TV all the time as kids, right? No. No. Yeah. But I saw the movie.

Oh, there's a movie about? Remember? Oh, who's in it? You loved it. I love it. Yeah. With my favorite movie. Jessica Chastain.

That was a good movie. That's a good. That was a great movie. Chest ain't can do anything. Oh, she's so good. She is. Okay. The population of Muskegan in the 90s I looked up was approximately 44,000.

Yeah, pretty big. Yeah. And then the population, there's a lot of populations up top of Duluth, my hometown, is 31,000. I think I guess 30,000 for your town. You probably guessed right around there, yeah. Having never been there, just. Just getting a sense of what was available to you commercially, food and shopping. Food and shopping.

And then adding that I never heard of it before I met you. Right. Because if you had heard of it, you would have got higher. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I looked up what the percentage of people is that identify as morning people. Oh, okay.

Because, you know, she doesn't want to get out of bed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And neither do I. Yeah. I hate getting out of bed. It's a genetic. thing there's a marker for it really yeah there are six human chronotypes not just morning larks and night owls oh there's more oh wow there's morning type evening type highly active

type daytime sleepy type daytime type moderately active type these sound like um descriptions for like a depends like when you're like are you moderately active are you a night owl it does Um, I kind of, I like this, though, because I'm not a morning type or an evening type. Right. I guess I'm a daytime type. Yeah. And I'm a daytime sleepy type.

Yeah. You're a sleepy type. Okay, but it says that 15, approximately 15% of the population identifies as morning people, Larks. That's it? Yeah. I don't have thought out how it was higher. Well, the majority around 70% percent. are intermediate types and the remaining 15 are evening types, night owl.

What do you? Fucking night owl, but it's changed with age. But my whole life, I do so well going to bed at 2 a.m. and waking up at 10 a.m. Right. Anytime I had an option for that schedule, that was my schedule. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like I'm best sleeping at 11. Like my body wants to go to bed at 11. And wake up at nine? Yeah. Right. Or 10 or 11. Sure. Or 5 p.m. for supper, just in time for suppy.

Who wrote the body keeps the score? That's Bessel van der Kolk. I feel bad for all these people whose books I know, but I don't know their names. Well, it's hard to remember. When you say that name, my brain goes, we're never getting that one. Don't even try. Don't waste any time. Like I know to quit.

You're giving up immediately. Absolutely. Well, you couldn't even say it. Bessel van der Kolk. That's hard. Yeah, that's hard. I did, you brought up a brief history of intelligence. Yeah.

And I was proud of myself because I knew immediately Max Bennett. Yeah, that's great. And I don't. And we had him and I loved him and I remember his history. He was great. But the name is hard. I wonder, it probably has to do with interacting with the edit more and maybe I like see the name more or something. or I've at minimally, I've heard it more.

I could be wrong about, this is my own interpretation of what happened. Yeah. With me and reading. Okay. I cannot say there's any studies to back this up. This is just what feels like happened. All the words were completely obscure to me. Yeah.

I couldn't sound things out. I couldn't look at the letters. They didn't translate to phonetic sounds for me. So I just couldn't, it gives me staring at it. I mean, like, it means nothing. But I think slowly over time, I memorized every word in its totality. Right. Like when I see a word, I see the whole thing.

Yeah, yeah. And I know what it is. Yeah. Through just tons of practice. I know what they look like as a unit, not a bunch of little units making the word, but as its own unit. Yeah. Names are a new thing. And I haven't memorized it in its totality.

And I can't really sound it or look at it. Yeah, that makes sense. That's my current excuse. It might just be I'm lazy and I don't care about people. I don't think it's that. But that, yeah, names are brand new unless they're Dax Shepherd. Or Monica Padman. Rob Hollis.

But even Hollis is problematic. It's going to be problematic until Rob dies. All right. Well, that's all my facts. Okay, great. Killington's sub 5,000. That was a hard one for you to take. But Duluth was 30,000.

So it's a push. All right. Love you. Love you. Follow Armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app. or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey

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