Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Michael Calvey (on being wrongfully imprisoned in Russia)

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

Michael Calvey (Odyssey Moscow: One American's Journey from Russia Optimist to Prisoner of the State) is an investor, businessman, and author. Michael joins the Armchair Expert to discuss how the Soviet Union existed when he climbed the the matterhorn but had fallen by the time he came down, learning that contact lenses freeze inside one’s eyes in Russian temperatures, and being an early tech investor in the Russian during its big recession. Michael and Dax talk about his apartment being deliberately set on fire by rivals, being raided and arrested by armed men in the middle of the night, and feeling betrayed by believing so much in a country that wrongly imprisoned him. Michael explains discovering he had a malignant tumor in his leg while behind bars, what the average Russian citizen thinks of Putin, and why writing this book was both cathartic and cheaper than therapy.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert, I'm Dan Shepard, I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi.

This is a crazy story today. Really crazy. Crazy story. How often do you talk to a man that was imprisoned in Russia wrongly? Not that often. Only a couple times. That was my first.

You're up to a couple times. Michael Calvi is an investor and an entrepreneur and he was in Russia from almost the beginning of their foray into capitalism. And he was very well established and very, very successful. And then something went wrong. And he has a thrilling book called Odyssey Moscow, One American's Journey from Russia Optimist

to Prisoner of the State. Wild. There's a nail biter. Please enjoy Michael Kelvey. He's an armchair expert. He's an armchair expert. He's an armchair expert. By the way, I love the vans, like high school days.

Yeah, really brings you back, doesn't it? Yeah, awesome. Where did you grow up? Oklahoma? Oklahoma. And were roughly the same age? I think so, yeah. Born in 67.

Okay, born in 75. So skateboarding, did it come to Oklahoma before you graduated? I wasn't a skateboarder though, because I played basketball. Easy thing to break a wrist and lose a season. That's true, as someone who broke a wrist. Yeah, I can attest to that. What did your parents do in Oklahoma? My dad was an engineer.

Both my parents grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and that's where I was born. So the reason I don't have an Oklahoma accent, I was raised by parents from the mid, mid Midwest. But they say your peers are who give you your accent, right? I think that's right. No second generation English kids have English accent. That's probably true, but I also moved abroad at the age of 23,

so I've lived most of my life in Europe and Russia basically. What is an Oklahoma accent? It's kind of a southern accent. Oh it is? It depends on who you're talking to, I guess. Well remember we just had on G.M.E. Marsden. Little Jimmy Marsden. Little Jimmy Marsden.

Yeah, I listened to that. That was a great episode. Oh, you heard that? Yes, I did. Because he was an Oklahoman? Not only because of that Yeah, I listened to that, that was a great episode. Oh, you heard that? Yes, I did. Because he was an Oklahoman? Not only because of that, but I listened to it and I thought, well, there you have it. He doesn't have an accent, though.

He has a charm. He does have a unique way of speaking. Yeah, you're right. Oh my God, I'm just realizing that my Sriracha sauce, you had already seen that. I had a big Sriracha sauce disaster about 20 minutes ago, but I've largely recovered until I just looked at my. I hope it was worth it.

Okay, so you graduate from college, I'm guessing, 89? Exactly. From University of Oklahoma? University of Oklahoma. And what was your degree in? It was in computer science and business, basically. And did you know you wanted to go to Wall Street? I thought, and this sounds hilarious in hindsight,

I thought I was gonna go pursue a political career. I was like the class president, and adults sounds hilarious in hindsight, I thought I was gonna go pursue a political career. I was like the class president, and adults would say to me, you know, we could really use a guy like you, and I'll help you out. When I was going to University of Oklahoma, it was partly, I wouldn't say for that reason, but it also seemed like a natural thing to do.

But I met someone who was the older brother of one of my friends when I was in college, who had worked on Wall Street, and just sort of over Christmas, he came back and was telling stories and I thought, you know, I want to live in New York and do that. So I got a job working there. I wanted to do something adventurous

and I had job offers from Exxon and Chevron and the typical oil companies that my dad, to them they were like deities. I mean, they were the venerable, most respected institutions on planet earth from his perspective. So when I said I have no interest in a pension plan and a career, I want to do something that's more swashbuckling and fun,

and especially Solomon Brothers, where I worked, where another of your guests, Michael Lewis. Michael Lewis, yeah. The liar's poker. Came out when I was there. I of course didn't know that. I'd been there for four months or something like that

when the book came out. You just missed him then. No, we gotta take two seconds on that. So you were working there after it had come out? I was working when the book came out. You just missed him then. No, we gotta take two seconds on that. So you were working there after it had come out? I was working there when it came out. When it came out. Did you immediately go read it? Of course. They called a meeting of the entire firm.

There was like this giant conference room that could sit 1500 people. So we're all there, I have no idea what it's about. And the senior management of the firm that you only see rarely came in and you could just see there was like steam coming from their ears. And they basically were saying a book is coming out tomorrow and it's full of lies and slander. And if any of you come into the press, you're fired. Don't even think about buying the book.

We all of course went out and bought the book immediately. Of course. Best marketing possible. And be dead honest, you were 21 or 21. I loved it, of course. Yeah, I was working in a different part. I was working in the corporate finance team So we were like the ugly little brother of the traders who were the swashbucklers but there were not strippers walking through the corporate finance department

Sad for you That would almost be maddening if I was one floor away from this party I'm reading about Thumping on the ceiling or something like that. In 91 you end up going to Russia. And how does that come about? It was really an accident. I wanted to go to business school. I got into the school that I dreamed about. But I thought that it would be nice to spend a year living

abroad. And I had an opportunity to go work for Salomon Brothers London office. And a week before I moved, the guy who was going to hire me left to join this institution called the EBRD, a bank that was like the World Bank Group that was set up to invest in the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe. It's called the European Bank for Reconstruction Development. It's owned by 50 different governments around the world including

the US government but mostly European governments. It was set up to invest in the Soviet Union. My boss knew that I was an oil and gas and energy investment specialist at the time. There was apparently a lot of oil in the Soviet Union so he basically said why don't you just come here for a year and then you can go back to business school. So I did. And let's remind people of context. So 89 the wall comes down.

Right. We're talking 91. And how quickly did all of the Soviet block break apart? Four months later. So in fact, the week before I started actual work, I took a backpacking and climbing trip around Europe and I was going to climb the Matterhorn with my best friend and we pull into Zermatt and I see in the newspaper that there's been a coup in Moscow and Gorbachev was

arrested by the KGB. So I thought oh there's not going to be any investments, maybe my job is at risk or whatever, when do we climb the Matterhorn? By the time we come back down to Zermatt three days later the headline shows Yeltsin standing on a tank, coup is collapsing, and it set in motion some forces that just became unstoppable. And four months later, the Soviet Union ceased to exist. I went to Moscow for the first time, I rushed for the first time a month later. The customs forms still said the Soviet Union because they didn't have time yet to print all the documents.

Yeah. So historically, you really are among a handful of the first Americans that are arriving post-communism. Yeah, there were obviously scholars and people who studied Russian. I didn't have any Russian or Eastern European ethnic roots. I didn't study it in college. You would see Red Dawn, I'm sure. The Schwarzenegger film. Did you speak Russian?

No, I didn't at the time. I do now. I mean, even an American can learn a language in 30 years. I don't at the time. I do now. I mean even an American can learn a language in 30 years So you got there and you already had a job have they already sorted how seen and all that at first I was living in London, but traveling there once or twice a month and then moved there full-time in 94 But I remember my first trip I spent a couple days in Moscow and then flew straight to Siberia where this oil project was when I got off the airplane It was minus 48 degrees.

And I had contact lenses at the time. And that's when I learned that contact lenses are mostly water because the contact lenses started to freeze. So you had to kind of close your eyes and just briefly open them. So it was almost like being under strobe lights in a nightclub.

Oh, this is miserable. Yeah, freezing cold. It was not love at first sight. I mean, it was fascination at first sight in Moscow. The people were kind of scowling on the outside. Everything was brown and gray. They just like Americans. They loved Americans.

Oh, really? Their view was not that they lost the Cold War, but they just chose to change sides. Join the winning team. They rejected communism and they thought that if they became more democratic, they would quickly become as prosperous as people in the West. It was ridiculous, almost the admiration that the young Americans like us felt and the respect, even though we were 25 years old, and especially within the investment and finance area, we were some of the most experienced people in the

whole country at 25 or 26 years old. I also quickly realized, even though on the exterior Russians can be quite harsh that when you scratch through the initial surface they're the most hospitable, generous, loyal friends that anyone can have and they also have their own unique sense of humor which I love. If I told you some Russian jokes you probably wouldn't laugh. I don't know I'm dark maybe I was. And I made some really good friends. I did fall in love with the country, and I still do, despite everything that happened to me much later, love most things about Russia.

Would it be fair to draw a comparison to them as such a large-scale societal trauma that it would be similar to what's great about folks with tons of trauma, where I come from? Yeah, it's a very stay the fuck away from me, but then when you're on the inside, there's a level of loyalty that really doesn't exist with highly functional people. Certainly what happened after the fall of the Soviet Union was traumatic. Anybody who

would have been over 25 years old saw complete economic devastation. We freak out in America when there's a recession, and the recession means that there's like two quarters in a row where GDP falls by at least 0.1%. In the first eight years that I was working on investments in Russia, the GDP fell by 75%. Twice the scale of the Great Depression. Oh my God. And what's the unemployment rate? Unemployment wasn't so high, but underemployment was rampant. You had people with PhDs or engineers and other things who were working as street cleaners.

There's this legendary department store right off of Red Square that's called Goom and this magnificent 19th century building, like a palace that's turned into a department store. It's sort of like Saks Fifth Avenue. And when I first arrived in January, 1992, the first floor had some shops selling Levi's blue jeans and handful of other things. But the second and third floors were just old people

selling their silver or carpet or whatever they had for money and it was heartbreaking. But for young people, it was the opportunity of a lifetime because Russians needed everything. There was pent up demand for everything. And people who could quickly figure out that if you could go to Berlin, you could buy such and such a thing,

drive back to Moscow and sell it at double the price. And how are people paying for it if they didn't have any money? They had rubles, there was hyperinflation, the rubles devaluing constantly, but it was still there. So you could also make money doing that, trading the currencies. It rewarded people who were super fast on their feet. Great time for hustlers. And it also, though, was a totally lawless time.

I mean, if you lived in Russia under the Yeltsin period, it was a time of great hope. I remember it was just a couple months after I went to Russia for the first time. Yeltsin was invited by the US to come speak to a joint session of Congress. And I think it's the longest standing ovation any foreign leader has ever had.

I mean, it was just such a feeling of the Cold War's over. Our bitterest enemy has come here. It was spine tingling and excitement. And we felt like we were there at the ground level. Now, when did they devise the plan? Because everything was state owned. It goes from minerals to gas and oil, and they devise a plan that they're going to issue shares in all these different sectors to the citizens. When did that happen? It was a good plan on paper.

It happened sort of in 1993 and 1994. At first they gave every Russian citizen a coupon that you could use to bid for shares that were being privatized. If you worked at an enterprise, you would get shares in it automatically for free. A certain amount was reserved for the workers. That was very fair on paper,

but if you worked for Gazprom or for another big oil company, your shares in the company might've been worth $50,000 overnight. If you worked at the State Institute of Geology that serviced them, you got nothing. It turned out to be horribly uneven. And then clever men borrowed tons of foreign money and they just bought up all these shares.

The managers of those companies, some of them were inscrupulous. They would not pay their workers on time and then offer to buy their shares at a deeply discounted price. And people had no idea what is this piece of paper? Is this a share or whatever? So they would sell it for pennies on the dollar. Because I would think a lot of people would be curious how these oligarchs came to be. How on earth did a handful of people end up with the predominant ownership? Some was that, some happened later when in 1996 there was gonna be another big election.

That was the one when there was an initial blowback from some of these reforms, like when they freed up prices and let companies set prices themselves and there was a massive inflation and it was very hard for people. So probably the majority of people in the country started to not support this path. But at the same time,

there was a fear about going back to communism. So the 1996 election felt like it was a make or break election for the country. And in hindsight, the West made a mistake by turning a blind eye. Yeltsin used all sorts of manipulative tactics to win the election. He even had American political advisors coming in

and propagandistic TV programs and other things like that. They really helped to rehabilitate his image. He went from like a 10% approval rating to 52% just in time for the election and defeated the communist candidate. And then we can get into how Yeltsin then created Putin, but we'll table that for a minute, because that's some years down the road. When do you move there? I moved there in 94. What's the just living situation? It was crazy. I was living in an apartment building initially that was

built by the Ministry of Defense for people that worked there. It was a brick building that would look like a housing project if it was in a major US city, but a brick building as opposed to a concrete slab building was considered a luxury in Moscow at the time. So I was just renting it for a while. It was a mix of hilarious adventures, crazy nightlife for a young single man in Moscow. We got bars right away, right? Yes, some legendary bars and clubs, metal detectors at the doors, mafia guys in one corner, a couple of Americans in the other. It was exciting and it was fun. And we did feel like we were participating

in something that was historic as well, but it was also great fun. Sometimes it was hardship, but it was hardship that kind of makes you laugh in hindsight. I mean, going to a hotel in the North of Russia where the heating doesn't work and I'm in bed with my full overcoat on and a fur Russian hat,

and I can see my breath. Yeah. I had a Russian friend who was among these nouveau riche Russian guys who made money quickly. It was so proud. He bought the first Range Rover in the country. And so he had a party at his apartment and he planned to drive up and whatever. So at the appointed hour, he doesn't show up and a half an hour later, an hour later,

and finally comes into his apartment and his face is bright red. And he explains that his car had been stolen on the way in from the dealership. So he had stopped at the parking garage and he got out of the car to like put in the code and while he did that someone jumped in the Range Rover and drove off right in front of his eyes. I remember his watching a 60 minutes segment around that time. The advice was if you're getting pulled over you must race to the police station or race to the military out. Because if you get out of the car you cannot trust who's behind you. I had my American driver's license and you're supposed to have an international license to drive there and so I was just

driving myself and the police would pull you over. They look at my license and he would say that's an American license not a international but the Russian word for international is Mezhdenorod, and so my American license word said sex M, I would point to the M and say, oh no, this is an American international license. They'd be like, oh okay, that's fine. I like whatever, so. Yeah, so you had to be agile, you had to lie a little bit.

You had to figure out how to work within the system you were in. You say in the book the caviar is free. Basically, yeah. And Pizza Hut is like where you would take your first date. You really want to impress a date. Pizza Hut. Pizza Hut is a really cool place to go. But you can just be dumping caviar in the trash for free basically. Tablespoons of caviar on your scrambled eggs. Wow. That is wild. Does

your family like come home? What are you doing? They thought that I was a bit strange when I went to New York, and then when I went to London, very strange. Moscow, they almost thought maybe there was a mix-up at the hospital when he was born. Yeah, I'd be scared. You co-found the company. Like a venture capital firm, basically.

We were investing in everything from beer brewing, chocolate, mineral water. We had a forestry business. We made good money doing that. Mobile phones, we invested in the company that had the mobile phones that were like the size of a shoe or something like that. It grew from 2000 subscribers to 100 million and it was the first Russian company to go public

on the New York Stock Exchange. So we had some really lucky early things that helped us get through the crises and the crashes. But what really made our name was investing in Russian technologies. In 1998, Russia defaulted on its debt and devalu and the crashes. But where we really made our name was investing in Russian technologies. In 1998, Russia defaulted on its debt and devalued its currency. Most people wrote it off.

One of my investors told me, Mike, let's face it, Russia's like the Titanic, it's sunk. It's at the bottom of the ocean. It'll never come up. But the people who stuck it out, and especially the people who doubled down at that time, ended up making a fortune. There was like a 10 year period from 1998 to 2008,

which were the golden years in Russia. And you get into one company that ends up being basically Amazon, Google and Uber all in one company. Yandex is the Google of Russia. It's one of the most innovative companies in the world. We invested $2 million. It was the only money that the company ever raised. It was a consortium that invested a total of 5 million,

but we put in the biggest amount and we led the whole investment. At the time, the company ever raised. It was a consortium that invested a total of five million, but we put in the biggest amount and we led the whole investment. At the time, the company's monthly revenues were about $1,000, but they had this core group of 30 or 40 just genius people who were absolutely devoted to it. And the product was fanatically popular among every Russian using it.

It worked much better than Yahoo or any of the other search engines and things that worked at the time. This was before even Google emerged as the leading search engine here. It took them about five years to break even, but they only burned about a million dollars a year. After the internet bubble burst, Google was created

and they did come, they were entering Russia, but they weren't getting that much traction, so they thought they would buy Yandex. So they offered to buy for $100 million. We said no, and they came back six months later and offered 250 million. And then we would have they came back six months later and offered $250 million. And then we would have made 15 times our money or something like that. And so some of the other investors in that 5 million consortium really wanted to sell. But my partner, Yelena

Veshensava, who really led that investment for us and the founders of the company believed that the company would be worth billions and it was way too early to sell. So we had to veto the sale. Some of the other investors tried to sue us. But anyway, you fast forward seven or eight years and the company goes public on NASDAQ with a $10 billion valuation. And all those people who were suing us were showing up on CNBC and Bloomberg

and boasting about having been early investors. Yeah. That is wild. It is. I probably would have been someone who said sell early. Bird in the hand. I know. Okay, so over the next 29 years,

this company has $2.8 billion invested in 80 different companies. You're wildly successful. You guys are among the most successful Westerners in the country. Are you sitting in Moscow at any point during this going like, well, this would be rad if I was in Switzerland Are you enjoying it? I loved it

I had so many good friends including a number of expats Americans who moved there at the same time as I did but also more and more Russian friends the kind of people that I was working with I had two main groups of People are influenced the tech people we were all wearing like sneakers t-shirts It felt not dissimilar to what it would feel like investing in California. Silicon Valley, yeah. So young people, not interested in politics at all. It was just really stimulating

because they were doing exciting stuff. Our firm was being recognized not just for success in Russia but as one of the global leaders in tech investing. And at one point we raised a billion dollar fund in three days where I just flew to London, New York and San Francisco and investors flew from all over the world to me to basically pitch me to take their money, convince me how they could help us besides just the money.

But I also had a separate group of friends and influences. I was lucky to invite a partner who was a cosmonaut and one of the most famous people in Russia, Alexey Leonov. He's the first human being to ever walk in space outside of a spacecraft in 1965. And then in 1975, he went into space a second time as the head of the Apollo-Soyuz mission, which was when the American capsules docked together with the Soviet capsule and he opened the hatch

and in front of World TV, he reached across and shook the hand of the American astronaut and pulled him in. That astronaut turned out to be Tom Stafford from Oklahoma, the most famous person probably ever from Oklahoma. Don't tell that to James Marsden. Or Brad Pitt was born there. No, no, no, Missouri.

Oh, he was born but then grew up. Well, they don't have their statues in the state Capitol yet. But it's funny, you know, I told my mom, she never quite understood what I was doing, and it was all a bit... Dad, I was telling, we just raised a billion-dollar fund in three days, and she kind of rolled her eyes and like, when are you coming back to Oklahoma?

But then one day, there's a knock on her door just a few days before Christmas and she comes to the door and it's General Tom Stafford. And he says, you must be Mike Calvi's mom. I'm just here to give him his Christmas present and remind him we're having lunch on Friday. She doesn't even know what to say but she runs to the phone and she calls me immediately

and says, I'm so proud of you. You gotta put it in their world. Yeah, a billion dollars isn't enough, my God. But the astronaut. And you meet Julia? Yes, exactly. You get married, you have two boys and a girl. Russian? She's Russian and we met in Moscow

after I lived there for just a couple years. Julia is amazing and especially what we went through later and how just absolutely rock solid she is. She's just an incredible woman. Okay, so let's talk about this business deal you get involved with. It involves a bank and there's a merger. Well, they're mostly investing in tech companies,

but we also had some investments in banking or financial service, mostly online banks or apps. We had one investment in a traditional retail bank that was working in the Far East, and they took a decision to merge with another bank. And just before that merger took place, the guys that own the other bank did a bunch of transactions to loan money

to their friends or other things that all went into default immediately. And we realized they had just stripped money out of the bank just beforehand. And you're gonna assume all that debt now. Right, so now the debt's there, and the central bank of Russia, which is like their Federal Reserve is starting to investigate. It's two guys. And we tried to negotiate some sort

of a compromise or settlement. They were insisting on getting control of the bank. The only way to stop that was to start litigation against them in London, which is what the merger agreement said. That's when they started to try to take countermeasures to get us to either drop the suit or give them control or sell them the bank. There were a lot of threats and aggressive. They did get control. They were blocking us out of the actual bank buildings. And really quick, these gentlemen, use that term loosely, what's their background? What's the line between gangsters and businessmen? There were young guys, like mid-30s at the time.

I was already 50 years old. And the people of my age who lived through the 1990s in Russia were mostly involved in some kind of disputes and learned by the time we were 30 that everybody loses from disputes like that. And certainly when I had conflicts with Russian oligarchs before, but in those days, relationship between the US and Russia was much stronger.

The government was not going to let something... You had a lot of leverage. We were also just very useful because what we were doing was really useful for the economy. Through my friend, the cosmonaut, he knew governors across the whole country, and the president, he was very well known. And so we were always able to navigate our interests. But what I didn't appreciate is that younger guys who hadn't lived through all that didn't realize yet that everybody loses from disasters. And they were well connected.

They had some very good friends in the different parts of the Russian government and they were desperate. I think they realized that if they didn't get control, the Russian central bank itself would probably put them in jail. Because the Russian central bank was essentially supporting us and they're the regulator for that sector. I also though was not naive when was essentially supporting us and they're the regulator for that sector. I also though was not naive when they started making threats that they were going to try to retaliate by making criminal allegations or things like that.

I took the threat seriously and I consulted with some friends of mine and senior levels in the Russian government and they all basically said these guys are low level con men. You should stand your ground and also no one's going to arrest a prominent international investor without a proper investigation. Yeah, you were an investor in the number one tech company. Also, you have a bank investment, which is the number one online banking in all of Russia. It'd be like somebody came to the United States and was the founding investor in Google, Amazon, and Facebook.

Yeah, Peter Thiel. Yeah. Peter Thiel's probably going to have a voice in some. You'd think twice or three times. You better have your shit together. I'm taking it seriously. I'm trying to negotiate. I'm trying to explain to the guys, look, this is also a bank. Banks are fragile. If the public learns of this conflict, the depositors are all going to take their money out. The bank will go bankrupt. There'll be nothing left to fight over.

Let's find some compromise. There was one time we were going to have a meeting for dinner. It's like five o'clock in the afternoon and I get a text saying Mike There's a fire in your apartment building So I race there and I see the top floor of my building where I just bought an apartment It's being renovated was supposed to be finished like a week later is on fire and the fire is just on the roof right above My apartment so it literally destroys my apartment and almost nothing else in the building. And the two guys who caused the fire

were some contractors from Belarus who fled the country two hours after the incident happened. So very suspicious. And I go straight to this meeting with the guys who were quick to say, this had nothing to do with us, but it was very stressful. It was a very aggressive meeting where they were making threats to destroy our entire

fund and other things like that. So it was not like I didn't see something coming, but I overestimated the rationality of the system. I kept thinking, what I do is so useful for Russia and for its economy, and I believed in Russia. I was going around the world convincing investors to share my optimism because my experience in Russia had been so encouraging overall.

So 2019, you're in your apartment, you're just woken up. I've flown there just for a special negotiation. By that time, the relations had really broken down with these other guys, but I kept saying, look, a war is not good for anybody. Let's find a compromise. We need to meet and sort this out. So they invite me to meet on February 14th.

I fly to Moscow. Wait, and where were you? You were here? I was in Switzerland. I'm living at that time in Switzerland in London, but still going to Russia three times a month. So I fly on the 12th. I get a text the next day from one of the two guys.

Are you in Moscow? Is it still good for tomorrow? Yes. So I wake up February 14th to the sound of some pounding on my door and I always sleep with earplugs I have for 20 years So at first it didn't really wake me up and then I kind of thought that most might be the neighbors walk over towards The door and I realized it's not just someone it's probably six people pounding on the door

And I'm standing there just wearing shorts and nothing else and I don't know what to do when suddenly the door bursts open, and 12 men, including half of them with guns drawn, come charging into the room, screaming at me to put my hands in the air. I know immediately that it's related to this case, but still, just adrenaline, I can't speak for a few minutes. I asked them to let me get dressed, so I put on some jeans and a shirt.

My fingers are shaking, so I do the buttons wrong finally heart rate comes down a little bit and I'm able to ask them some questions and that began this really pretty harsh ordeal now there's like a 30 something I guess detective the investigative committee the Slesvnyi Komiteet is like the FBI it's part of a triangle of institutions that's headed by the FSB, which is the old KGB basically. So there's also the prosecutor's office and then the investigators. So you got a guy in the house

and he's just rifling through your stuff in front of you and he's looking at pictures and he finds a picture of your son when he's four and he has a black eye and he's saying, oh, are you also a child abuser? You're also guilty of that. And I just sat there with my jaw open thinking, how could you even ask that? as a black guy and he's saying, oh, are you also a child abuser? You're also guilty of that. And I just sat there with my jaw open thinking,

how could you even ask that? The moment there for me that would be so infuriating is I'm now in a dynamic where this dipshit gets to come in and just start accusing me randomly of stuff. Just rifling through your personal photos. I'm trying to rationalize things. I keep thinking, okay, they're just sending me a brutal message

to back off and give up control of this bank. I didn't think they were seriously planning to launch a criminal investigation over something that never happened. This was only six years ago? Yeah. Oh my God. So you get taken into the office

where they're gonna ask you a visiting question. Which is like George Orwell's 1984, the Ministry of Truth. It's a very Soviet era building. Very Soviet era building, like linoleum floors and long corridors with just these dark doors. Every horror flashback we see in American television about this period.

Now really quick, I think is relevant, is a lawyer that worked with the company, with your fund, he did arrive on the scene in your apartment because they had also raided your offices. That's right. And he says basically to you, right, this is Pearl Harbor. Exactly, I thought,

now that's a really good metaphor actually. Sneak attack, which succeeded in its objectives, I guess, but just in the same way, there's a way to fight back. It's gonna get worse. He basically says, there's a system in place and we're gonna fight and win. Are you getting a sense of what the accusations from the two bozos are?

I knew what they were accusing us of and they just had it all wrong. So when they first interrogations, I just said, look, I wasn't involved in that episode that you're talking about, but here's what I know about the facts of it. And if you go to this person and that company and this other company,

they'll have all the documents on this, which will show that what you're suspecting here was a super profitable transaction for the bank, which benefited the bank. We didn't get anything from it. Good luck. They did. Later, I heard they were horrified

because they thought that it was a slam dunk case. Now, were these two guys connected somehow with somebody at the RBS or? FSB. FSB. They were well connected in the government. I'm not sure about the FSB beforehand, but they were able to get the right people to support them. And I understand that ultimately it was approved by Putin, you know, any like high profile

arrest. You guys can't believe the degree of micromanagement in the country and how many decisions go to his desk because people are afraid to do anything. If you haven't gotten his approval, you can get blamed later. So they come to him and there's no papers or documents or anything like that. And he'll either say, okay, I approve or I don't approve. And sometimes he'll scribble on a piece of paper,

I approve or something like that. But basically they told him, and I learned this only in hindsight, that I was the biggest financial backer for Russia's opposition. So I was like financing the people trying to overthrow Putin, which was not true. We were never involved in politics. Did these two guys convince them the FBS? I'm going to get it right. Is that right?

FSB. That's all right. You're such a happy person to not know those accurate. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. This is Nick. And this is Jack. We're best friends, ex-finance guys, and resident 90s experts. And every week on our podcast, The Best Idea Yet, we're bringing you the untold stories behind your favorite products. For instance, can you guess which billion dollar fashion company went viral thanks to

a rhinestone-covered tracksuit? Or which cartoon turned four turtles into a global toy empire by accident? It started as a joke. Last one. Which cold beverage was so hated by Starbucks they actually ended up acquiring it? Spoiler! The Frappuccino. Howard Schultz apparently thought cold coffee was super lame, and then he bought it.

From Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to Juicy Couture to the Orange Mocha Frappuccino. Join us every week to learn how your favorite things got made. Follow the best idea yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. And if this podcast lasts longer than 45 minutes, call your doctor. Ha ha ha. ["The Ghetto"] Were these two guys so convincing when they told the FSB the allegations against you that they bought in, or was it always corrupt from the get-go

and we're gonna fuck this guy because he's trying to fuck us, and let's fuck him? I think even those two individuals believed that where there was smoke, there was fire. Maybe they thought there was fuck us, and let's fuck him. I think even those two individuals believed that where there was smoke, there was fire. Maybe they thought there was something there, but they were desperate guys.

They didn't do something radical. They were going to go to jail. In hindsight, I underestimated what measures a desperate person will go through, but also how much the geopolitical situation had changed and how being an American was no longer an asset, it was a liability. So Putin was very ready to believe by that point

that an American would really be an evil bastard who would be there to try to overthrow him when in fact I was doing things that were super useful for the country. Well, he's fully a paranoid at this point. You'd think they'd like take five minutes to look into it. Exactly, exactly. If they had just read the central bank's own audit report,

they had done an eight month audit and issued a 1400 page audit report, they had done an eight-month audit and issued a 1400-page audit ruling, which essentially blamed our opponents for everything that was going on at the bank. So if they had just read that document, they would have realized that it was a boomerang that was going to come back to haunt them. But, you know, you just painted a picture of the prison of his own making, which is when you are that harsh on everybody, as you say, of course, they have to get you to sign

off on everything. So you have created a situation where it's back on everybody, as you say, of course, they have to get you to sign off on everything. So you have created a situation where it's back to communism, it's centralized power, centralized decision-making. His first two terms in office, he was surrounded by people who were his previous peers and who knew him in a way that they could offer frank and honest feedback, but over the course of 20 plus years,

those people have all retired and the ones around him now think of him as God and no one's gonna ever give him any critical feedback. Well, he's also demonstrated his will a lot over the last 20 years. When he just arrived from St. Petersburg, that hadn't happened. So they also are inheriting what they now know about him.

That's true. Okay, so you get there, you're put in a jail cell originally with two other guys and there's just a fucking hole on the ground. Yeah, the smell of which cannot be described. Oh my god. And the place, it's probably like a 50 year old prison which is not that old but old enough. The smell of, imagine like a locker room standing on top of a sewer. I once shot a movie in Jolie at that prison, and we had scenes in the showers,

and just standing in the showers, I was like, ugh, the fucking horrors. It's permeated in the place. So this is after an entire day of interrogation and then being driven around for probably six hours in Moscow in handcuffs in the back of a prison convoy truck in the dark, and we get to this place that I gather is a small temporary prison.

And they put me in a cell, it must be midnight, maybe early morning. Take my belt and shoelaces and everything else, so no self-harm. Put me in a cell with these two guys and one of them comes up to me, he's like this big barrel-chested Russian guy, introduces himself. His name is Sasha, I say my name is Michael And he goes, oh, you're not Russian. Where are you from? And I said, I'm American. He goes, no fucking way.

He's like, a real one? Oh, that's so fucking cool. And then he goes, what's the source of your misery? And I'm like, oh my God, that's a very deep question. And then I realized that's Russian for what are you in for? And I didn't even know at that point. So he takes my piece of paper from the investigative committee, which says I'm being investigated for fraud of exceptionally large scale.

And he goes, that's so cool. And he goes, how much was it? And then I'm thinking, oh God, so I didn't want to tell him, but the dispute was over two and a half billion rubles, which is like $35 million. So I said it was two and a half million. So I had a thousand times less. And he was still like two and a half million,

which is like $35,000. He's like, wow, that is so good. Turns to the other less and he was still like, two and a half million, which is like 35,000. And she's like, wow, that is okay. Turns to the other guy and he goes, respect. And the other guy was a young Chechen guy who was there for armed robbery. He was the age of my oldest son. And he hardly said anything, but occasionally he would stand up and yell out the windows

in the Chechen language. So the Chechens are very violent people, proud of their warrior codes and history, but in the prisons they are their own kind of untouchable. But they were nice and the big guy, Sasha, was giving me advice and then going on and chatting all night. Everything's great until you have to watch Sasha take a dump in the hole in the floor.

Oh no. It's like all going well until Sasha's like, you know what, I gotta go to the bathroom. Oh my God. What are you thinking? Are you like, I'm dead? What is happening in your head? I keep thinking decision makers in Russia

have gotta be pretty rational. This has gotta be so self damaging that this is gonna be one night in prison and I'll probably be home tomorrow night. I didn't know what they were saying about me, so the information blackout was one of the worst things about the first four or five days I go at the court the next morning and there were probably a hundred journalists Paparazzi TV crews CNN BBC

So I realized this is global news and is it safe to assume they wanted that that wouldn't happen if they didn't want it in The courtroom it was only Russian state TV But going in and out you could see the foreign journalists and others as well I guess what I'm saying is they probably could have arrested you quite discreetly only Russian state TV, but going in and out, you could see the foreign journalists and others as well. I guess what I'm saying is they probably could have arrested you quite discreetly. They couldn't have arrested me quite discreetly because of the position I had in the investment community

and other things. I could imagine interpreting that if it were me, like the government wants us up. They want to say, we're going to prosecute this guy. I think the FSB has such control. They don't give a damn about any of that. They have their own people inside every courthouse. They have their phones on the desk of every judge in the country that has no numbers on

it. You get incoming calls from the FSB curators in the courthouse. And if you don't do what the caller says, you'll be in prison yourself very soon. So the degree of institutionalized control that they have, of course, they're not interested in most cases. There's another ministry called the Interior Ministry, which where the whole police force work. So normal criminals, thieves, killers, are usually investigated by the MVD, the Interior Ministry.

They're like the CIA and the FBI combined. Could be political or economic. I didn't really know any of this. I mean, at the time, it was such a foreign thing to me. I kept thinking this is a brutal negotiating message. When I finally had the first interrogation, not by the investigative committee, but by the FSB people directly,

they were basically saying, you need to admit that you're guilty and then we can make a deal. And I said, I'm ready to make a deal right now. It's about this bank, let's just agree. We can give up control of the bank, we can do whatever, but I'm not going to admit guilt to a crime that never happened.

And they were like, suit yourself. So I kept imagining, okay, up control of the bank, we can do whatever, but I'm not going to admit guilt to a crime that never happened." And they were like, suit yourself. So I kept imagining, okay, they're going to put me into a prison or someplace where there's going to be really violent or aggressive people that are there specifically to make me want to admit guilt or do whatever I can to get out as soon as possible. And they send me to a prison called Matroska Tishina, which is a place just notorious with misery in Russia. And I didn't see it except from the inside, because when you're driven inside a convoy

truck there's no windows or anything like that. Imagine what it looked like from the outside. And you get immediately put in cell 609? There's three days when I was in a solitary confinement, but that's when they were doing also blood tests, making sure I don't have any disease. But that's also when they were ramping up the interrogations and some intimidation. So then they tell me they're gonna move me to my permanent cell and they tell me

to sit around 10 o'clock at night. In that prison, the lights go out at 10.30. They don't ever go completely out because there's like a eye on the wall for monitoring all the cells. I started imagining they're doing this on purpose just before lights out and then there's gonna be a really hard incident coming up.

And they tell me to get my stuff out. I'm still wearing the same clothes I'd thrown on five days earlier that morning. I finally had buttoned my shirt upright, but besides that, it was the same stuff I was wearing. How much contact are you having with counsel? I'd had one meeting with my lawyer in the prison since then.

There were the two hearings in court where they sent me there where I was able to speak with my lawyers, and that was it. One of the guards, though, felt sorry for me, and he gave me a newspaper where there was a two-page spread about my case and having read that I already started to feel better because I realized that even the newspapers that are controlled indirectly by the Russian Presidents Administration were writing good things about me and at the top there were very

prominent people in the Russian business community and even a minister in the government saying that this case needs to get sorted out quickly, it's very damaging for the investment climate. And they were basically saying, Mike is an honest guy, he's done a lot of great things for Russia. And if you read the substance, you'd realize why the people who were oppressing me were doing it. I was encouraged by that, but still very scared.

And your lawyer, is his tones shifting? Is he not talked enough where he realizes, oh, this is going to be bigger? He was very frank and upfront that when you're dealing with the FSB, they're never wrong. They'll never admit a mistake. He described it to me saying, it's like a car with six gears going forward and none in reverse.

In the people in this prison, there's been no acquittals. That's the history. Zero acquittals. Yeah. This is so scary. What about your family? I had any contact with them. And actually there were three times

throughout the whole episode that I really cried openly. And one was during those five days when I was in the solitary confinement, I start to write a letter to my family to give to my lawyer. And as I'm writing it, I am imagining my kids and my wife sitting there reading it crying, worrying about me and I'm trying to reassure them that guards are all following the rules but as I'm writing this and imagining a reaction I just couldn't stop from crying. You get assigned on what day to your?

Day five. So the guards come and collect me. All I have is my prison issued stuff which is an iron bowl, it looks like a dog pail for water, and a tablespoon, and a teacup, a bar of soap, and a towel that's like the size of a restaurant table napkin. I rolled all that stuff up in a mattress that's like a little bit thicker than a yoga mat,

but it's an actual cloth mattress that's 20 years old, and you can imagine. All the things that it's seen. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I roll that up under my arm. They're taking me up these stairs and in the stairs there's a button they press

and a siren goes off and I call it in the book the psycho stairs because the Alfred Hitchcock psycho, you know the shower scene with that screeching, you know, knife that creepy thing. Imagine that except for even louder and creepier. That's basically what the siren sounded like going up these stairs. So my heart is pounding and they come to the sixth floor

and cell 604, knock on the door three times and open the door and I see seven men standing inside a space that's smaller than this studio here. And my heart stops for a second, but then they see me and they face a smile and they say, Michael. And the guards shoved me in the room and the door shuts I put my mattress on the one empty bunk

It's an eight-man cell and the light goes out, but it's still sort of dim But anyway, one of the guys says look come let's sit at the tail There's like a little picnic table they pours tea and these little rubber or plastic cups and they all start to introduce themselves You know, I'm Andre. I'm Grisha, I'm Saanich. The last guy says, look, in this cell, everybody's a decent person. Oh my God. Everything's gonna be okay.

And I was just like, yeah. Wow. And the best part of my book is the story of our comradery in that cell. These were not the hardened criminals or killers that I was expecting. They were really decent guys. One was a deputy minister of culture of Russia.

One was a general in the Russian army. One was a famous young computer hacker. Who I'm sure was working for the state at some point, no? Well, he missed his chance to make a deal. The usual story with hackers is the FSB will crack down on them and arrest them and then make them a deal or proposal, come work for us or you can go to jail and they all go work for the FSB basically. And then three guys who owned construction companies.

There was one guy among them initially who was a drug dealer that was later moved out pretty quickly. He was a great guy too though, great sense of humor actually. I can't say whether the guys were all innocent of the crimes they were accused of. Some were accused of corruption. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. If they were, it was arbitrary. Why would they be singled out?

It was probably because some bureaucrat was being attacked. I know two of them were there because they were not the main target. They were being pressured to testify against the person who was the main target and they refused to do so. Okay, again, I'm going to go back to 60 minutes. I've seen so many segments on Russia over the years, but one of them was this interesting figure of the most impacted major at all Russian universities is government administration, which is extremely telling.

All young men in college are chasing money. And so for us, if you want money, you're not going to work for the government. But there, if you want money, you'd be good to be in the government. There are parts of the government in Russia, like the tax ministry or the central bank or the ministry of finance, where the people are super professional. You look at their budget, they're really, really good.

But the security structures, which is these blocks, people point to their shoulders when they refer to them because they wear shoulder boards in their uniforms. The FSB is the apex predator within the system. It's actually a very prestigious thing for young people to get recruited in and go do because you suddenly become very powerful, you become very useful to your friends and family. I think most of them are also patriotic,

but they grow very cynical and it's obviously known for deep corruption as well. But it's not only about corruption. Corruption is part of it. They think that life is corrupt, life is cynical. They think that all businessmen are guilty of crimes too. Why should only businessmen be wealthy and not us? We're doing patriotic work to defend the country.

And I think the promotion system there depends on the people who are willing to do the most ruthless stuff following orders for their superior. So if you want to progress within that system, you have to show that you're willing to be absolutely brutal towards people. That's what breeds a very toxic atmosphere. So you're in that cell for four months? For two months.

And what is your optimism, your attitude? What's your sense of, oh, this is going to be worse than I thought? Where are you at? I had the president of the United States calling, the president of Russia saying you need to let Mike out. That didn't help, unfortunately, at all. It was Trump. That was when Trump was there, yeah.

I'm surprised that didn't work. But I had this big fund with an army of lawyers supporting me. I had senior people in the Russian government that self-supporting me. My cellmates didn't have any of that. And there was one guy there, Andre, who had been there for three years already,

hadn't been tried or convicted of anything. I mean, you're literally guilty until proven innocent. And he wasn't even the target. He was being pressed to testify against the guy who was the target, and he refused to do so. And while I was there in those two months, he had his trial. He was given a 15-year sentence. The guy had two daughters,

one of whom was born when he was there. So his wife was pregnant when he was arrested. So he'd only seen his three year old daughter once on the other side of a glass screen. He came back from the trial, realizing he wasn't gonna be able to hug his daughters till their 15th birthday. The guy was just totally shattered.

The day he was heading off to the trial, he and I both woke up earlier than everybody. There was a TV in the cell that showed just the Russian state channels. But there was one channel that in the morning doesn't have programming, but it always just shows that nature scenes. Maybe it had been in California,

but it was some sort of sea, rocks. There were seals swimming around. Everybody else in the cell is asleep and the sound is off. And he's just there staring at the TV. He's got a tear in his eye and I can imagine him thinking, if I ever get out of here, I'm never going to take for granted the things that are the most beautiful in life.

Yeah. When he came back, it was really devastating. But at the same time, there was some hilarious banter or jokes. The guys were all learning English. Swear words first. Swear words 101. We had a competition about whose swear words were better between Russian and English.

Afterwards, they were kind of like, yeah, English is much cooler than I thought. Oh. The times that I have made friendships under duress, those are really, really profound friendships. Especially when you're expecting the exact opposite. But just to see those guys' courage and support

for each other, when you go from something that you expect to be scary and maybe even violent and it turned out to find decent people, it is inspiring. Everybody was reading different things, trying to make the best of the bad circumstances. I kept thinking that I was gonna get out soon. On the TV, half of the commercials were from companies that I helped to start and found

and develop. Whenever some new company would have something on TV, they'd be like, Mike, is that your company too? I'd be like, yeah, that's one of our companies. Oh my god. And they also kept saying, how is it possible that our country could arrest someone like you who's done all this?

We were able to get newspapers once I got into that cell and I was being written about in the papers almost every day. Emotionally, did you feel so betrayed? You know, when you're committed to some ideology or a religion and then you find out that God doesn't exist or maybe it wasn't that extreme, but I believed in Russia. I wasn't naive. I saw political situation was changing.

I saw what the FSB was doing in some other cases, but I kind of thought those are all people involved in politics, it's oligarchs who are involved in those corrupt privatizations you were referring to, Dax, earlier. Surely that couldn't happen to me. Only when you see the face of it up front and you realize how cynical the system is.

But that's heartbreaking for someone who believed so deeply. Yeah, I did feel betrayed by Russia. I had done so much to help this country. I believed in it. I was very proud of having kids who were half Russian. I was raising them to be equally proud of their Russian and American heritage.

And it just felt so self-damaging. There was one guy who said in the newspaper when I was sitting in a prison, a very prominent businessman in Russia said, if the CIA wanted to design a special operation to discredit and undermine the Russian economy, they could not have come up with a better program than to have Michael Calvi arrested.

What I learned later, when I got out of house arrest, so I was two months there, then two years under house arrest, and then I was able to go out and meet some of the people who had been supporting me, and then they told me exactly what happened. Two weeks after I was arrested, so I was still in Matroska Tishana in cell 604, there was a decisive meeting in the Kremlin.

Some of the people who were supporting me were there. Some of the people supporting my opponents were there. Putin listened to both sides and realized they had made a mistake. So he told them to take me out of prison and treat me with respect, but also then to dig and find evidence of a crime, don't lose face,

and try to make some sort of a deal with the Americans and get something out of it. So I didn't know that at the time. The goal was to find you guilty of something, so they had a justification for having pulled you in in the first place. But if it had been exposed that this was completely fabricated charges, they couldn't live with that.

That would discredit the whole system. Exactly. The legitimacy of the whole system depends on those security structures being perceived to be absolutely. Airtime. Yeah. Tell me about the trial. So were you awaiting trial for two years?

Yeah, then I was under house arrest for two years. It's not like COVID where you could go out for a jog or go to the grocery store. You're literally able to leave the apartment only escorted by a prison official. Is your family allowed to come? My family was allowed to come. I was given a special phone with buttons,

but it was put with a chip in it so that everything was monitored. My apartment had video and audio surveillance equipment installed by the FSB. So it was like being in a fishbowl. The only people I was allowed to call or text were my wife and three kids, my mom, brother, and sisters, and my lawyers, and that was it.

So I couldn't Zoom with friends. I was totally isolated from any friends, any contact whatsoever for two years. Internet and Wi-Fi were disabled. I couldn't stream anything. We could watch DVDs. This was in 2020 at this point? It was from 2019 till 2021.

So it was through the COVID period as well. Was that comforting at all? Well, at least everyone else is fucked. Yeah. Well, I was being brought once a week from my apartment to the investigative committee during the whole COVID period for some further interrogations or other case related stuff. And at the entrance, there was a guy with one of these

like wands that would measure your temperature. And I would always glance at it and it would have a number that did not resemble a human being's temperature either in Celsius or Fahrenheit. It'd be like 12.7 or 56.3 or something like that. So after like the third month of this, I kind of lean over to the guy and whisper, I says, does that thing even work? And he goes, apparently not.

Oh my God. But there was a classic Russian bureaucratic, like they just follow the procedure, but it's just a show basically. It doesn't mean anything. They just don't want to stick out. Okay, so tumor first or trial first? Tumor first.

I had had what I thought was a normal lipoma, like a fatty tissue or whatever, the back of my thigh. My British doctor had said, it's a harmless lipoma. You can have it removed if it bothers you cosmetically. I said, yeah, I'll do it, but I'm kind of busy right now. And underneath your shorts, it didn't really bother me that much. Anyway, then under house arrest,

you got nothing else to do when you're awake for 16 hours a day, except read and exercise. So I'm exercising a lot and my legs getting, I'm thinking, my legs are getting stronger, but I noticed the lump getting stronger too. I thought maybe it's related to the exercise I'm doing. It starts getting bigger and bigger. I'm asking to get permission to go see a doctor

and they hem and hob at it. Finally, after a few months, I get permission to go see a doctor who takes a quick look at it and says, that is not a normal lymphoma. So he orders a surgery to remove it the very next day. And when the surgeon comes out, he says, look, I'm seeing some of these things.

I'm afraid it looks like a malignant tumor. And I thought it couldn't be malignant, it's been in my leg for three years. If it was, I'd be dead. But they sent away, did a biopsy, and it was a grade one liposarcoma. It was the size of a pear. Oh my God.

But the good news is it hadn't yet metastasized, and so the tissue around the tumor was clean. I still did radiation therapy, but it was a bit surreal. And you couldn't do an MRI because you had the ankle bracelet? And the ankle bracelet, exactly. So they were able to do some like ultrasounds and things like that, but not the MRIs. Mine a little bit blind. Oh my god. But it was yet another thing. It felt like fate was definitely conspiring against me. Two years is a very long time. What was the nadir of that experience? It just kept going on and on. I kept thinking it'll be out in three months.

There was a deal being worked on in March, April of 2020. Couple months after that was gonna be May, 2020, the 75th anniversary of the end of World War II. And Putin had invited a number of world leaders to Moscow, including Trump, to celebrate the old alliance from World War II that defeated the Nazis. Some friends and supporters of mine were pushing an amnesty,

and it would be the kind of thing that Putin likes to do before some grand event like that, make a humanitarian gesture. It would have been a way for them to say, well, he was guilty, but we're letting him out in the spirit of 1945 and our alliance. And there would have been a face-saving way

to end the story, but then COVID hit in March. All the leaders canceled the visit, so there was no PR value from him.aving way to end the story. But then COVID hit in March, all the leaders canceled the visit. So there was no PR value from it. We had to kind of go back to. So there were things like that that were just constant. Get your hopes up. Meanwhile, your business is thriving in Russia. Yeah.

It made me wonder why I work so hard all those years. But the most profitable years we ever had were the two years when I was away. Wow. Among our investments were two companies we had invested in 10, 15 years earlier, which went public during that time when the U.S. and the market values went up dramatically. Talk about a very hard and real example of like, oh, I can't buy my way. This money's useless. Yes, exactly.

But you know, also, especially when I was still in the prison, it's kind of like an onion and you peel it back and you say, okay, well, this thing that's on the outside, like money, I'll give that up if I have to. What's in the very middle of the onion is your family, you want your kids to respect you as an honest man. You know, you don't want to go down as a criminal and unethical. What is in that very middle part?

So I had already mentally shaved off the outer layers of the onion. It was like, if I get out of this, I have to give up all my money. But you have your dignity in your kid's eyes. If the kids are healthy and happy, then the onion, it was like, if I get out of this, I have to give up all my money. But you have your dignity in your kids' eyes. If I have that thing on the inside, if the kids are healthy and happy, then the rest, okay, let's see what I can get back

from the rest of it. Yeah. I'm fast forwarding ahead, but in any way, like someone who does survive a real bout of cancer, has it given you a kind of new view of life and a new gratitude and a new appreciation? Well, the cancer and the case together, absolutely. I remember Andre looking at that TV and the scene. You have to live every day and appreciate new appreciation. Well, the cancer and the case together, absolutely. I remember Andre looking at that TV and the scene.

You have to live every day and appreciate every day. It's a cliche and it's so hard to forget it when you get stuck in your busy life and your routine and your plans. But when you go through a combination experience like that. Well, you think you're planning all these pillars that you really anchor your safety and your identity to. And one of the pillars, yeah, is your health.

And one of the pillars is financial. One of them is your freedom. And you remove those, and I just imagine it gets quite threatening, just your identity. Yeah, just existentially. But you know what was also really nice is seeing the reaction of your friends. Almost all of my friends proved to be really, really good

friends during that time. So when I was not there to be able to help my family, they stepped up. It's almost like going to your own funeral, seeing who shows up and who you can really count on. That was in the inner side of what's most important life. And knowing you'll come out of that with that was a very reassuring epiphany. So what was the trial like? If you've ever read Franz Kafka, it was just like that. It was a farce. We decided that I would give testimony at the very beginning because it's kind of a complicated case. It's a repo, which you know, people who worked on Wall Street, it was just like that. It was a farce. We decided that I would give testimony at the very beginning, because it's kind of a complicated case.

It's a repo, which, you know, people who worked on Wall Street, it happens 100,000 times a day, but to a judge and many journalists, it's a very complicated thing. So I was gonna give testimony at the very beginning to explain the basic outline of what happened, refer to various expert opinions,

and my lawyers prepped me. So I gave the testimony, and then when the prosecutor stands up to cross examine me, she says, is your name Michael Calvi? I said, yes. And she goes, okay, no further questions, your honor. So then everyone in the courtroom just burst out laughing

and realized that they have no questions that they can ask. Is there a juror? How is it structured? No, it's not a jury, it's just a judge. The judge decides. Are there no jury trials in Russia? There are some, it's very rare. The expert appraiser who was appointed by the prosecutors to come in and give an opinion

about this concluded that the bank made like a four billion ruble profit on the transaction that they were accusing me of. So there should have been enough to disqualify the case immediately. The prosecutor just lets all the testimony come. Even the witnesses for the prosecution were saying there was no crime. What in the world? And at the very end, the prosecutor stands up and says in her closing arguments during this entire trial Not a single witness testified that a crime took place and that just shows what a well-organized group of criminals

We're dealing with here, but then she proceeded to say but on the other hand these people have done important and valuable work for the Russian economy They've created many jobs. And so we think they should be given just a probationary or suspended sentence. She turned to me to smile as if to say, you have no idea how lucky you are and how rare that is that you're getting off the hook without jail time. And I leave the courtroom, I'm getting texts.

By that time, I was able to communicate by phone. My British and American friends were all saying, I'm so sorry, because they went across the news wires immediately. So to be convicted of a crime that never happened is so unjust. My Russian friends were texting me saying, Congratulations, man, you did it! You did the impossible.

There's like mission impossible, basically. Yeah. That shows such a difference of the way the two countries operate. Okay, you pretty quickly divest everything from Russia. Well, I get permission to leave finally, another four months later, five months later, and I leave in January 2022, a very stressful day. If you saw the film Argo about when they got the guys out of Tehran, it felt like that on the airplane.

It was a huge relief to be back with my family. But I had promised my lawyers that I would go back at least once to register and then leave again. I don't know. least once to register and then leave again. I don't know. I went to see my family, I went to see some friends and close business partners, I went to visit my kids in their schools, because they're in college already and at their dorms,

which I'd missed out on for three years, high school graduations and a lot of stuff like that. So I was trying to catch up on that, but I started to worry that if I don't go back, my colleagues who were also caught up in the same case and had suspended sentences like me might get sent to prison again. But you also know of the many stories

of people who've returned to Russia. Right, so I saw people in the State Department who were saying, do not go back. And I'm like, but if I don't go back and four people go to prison because of that, how will I look at myself in the mirror every day? Oh. I check with my lawyers, I check with various people

and they're like, look, the same system that allowed you to leave, it's still there, so you can probably come back, quickly register, and then leave. Oh my God, if you're my dad, I am so mad. So I'm weighing the pros and cons, and I kind of come down on the side that I have to go back, I cannot live with myself

if I don't go back and then my colleagues get arrested because of that, what a cowardly thing to do. Living comfortably in my home in London would be unbearable. So I buy tickets to go back February 23rd, 2022, with my wife who has aged parents in Moscow. That was the time when you needed COVID PCR tests or whatever and I'm literally in a taxi going from my home

to Geneva airport, and I get the email with my COVID results saying I'm COVID positive. Oh, yes. So my wife and I spend five minutes conferring she's negative. Her parents are waiting for her. So we decide, okay, she's gonna fly anyway. We stop the taxi at the nearest town

and I take a train back home, and she goes on to the airport. And she goes onto the airport and she wakes me up in the morning, 6 a.m. saying, have you seen the news? No, that night Russia invaded Ukraine and the Russia-Ukraine war started. That night. That night. So my wife flew there and literally that same very night,

it's a whole horror show of the Russian-Ukrainian war. So if I had gone back, it's quite possible that they would not have let me leave and I might still be there today. It was an incredible stroke of good luck and my wife flew back three days later and was able to come out and so obviously haven't been back in Russia since then. And then ultimately you guys got out of business wise which was very costly. Yeah, the war obviously makes everything that happened to me seem absolutely trivial and tiny in comparison. It's one of the worst human tragedies, not just for Ukrainians, especially for Ukrainians,

but also for Russians. I mean, how many hundreds of thousands of young Russian men's lives destroyed huge refugee exodus? Almost zero training, half the people they're sending over there. And it's literally like World War I trench warfare, but now with drones. It's just absolutely brutal conditions. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Okay, so in the wake of this whole experience, when you look back and you reflect, what red flags had you ignored? I mean, writing the book was very cathartic in that respect, because I had a lot of time to think about what you're on. I started off with a diary of the two months that I was in prison, which I felt was just

such a unique lens into Russian society that itself tells a story of an entire book. But when I started sharing that with friends of mine who were journalists, they encouraged me to tell the story of how I came there in the first place and why I was so optimistic. But it also gave me a chance to reflect on everything I got wrong. It's not like we were blind or naive. We were just biased because of our immediate environs and also the people that we dealt with.

If you would have spent time with the young entrepreneurs that we were backing, you could not have been an honest person and concluded that Russia was worse off than during the time of their parents or grandparents generation. If you imagine what their Soviet grandparents lived through in their lives and saw these young people with their iPhones and t-shirts... Going on dates to Pizza Hut. Well, by that time Moscow had amazing restaurants, fantastic theaters and culture. The parks were amazing and clean. Even from when I first moved there in the Yeltsin period, the housing had been totally broken down and people were not being paid.

So things had improved materially for almost everybody in the country. The average wage was eight times higher than what it was back at that time. It felt like economically the place was better off. But also in terms of people's access to information in the world the people I was Dealing with we're just leading much better lives than their grandparents So what I didn't appreciate was how deep the security services control over people's lives had become the FSB's Control over life in Russia today is way deeper than it was at the time of the KGB because of technology manipulate people's information and the degree of control they have inside all the big institutions of the

country. And when you come up face to face with the people, you really see how cynical they are. Probably patriotic too, but cynical, corrupt and ruthless. When you were seeing other businessmen get arrested throughout your three decades there, what were you telling yourself? Some of them were oligarchs who had behaved really badly towards us at the time. So I was thinking, well, I'm not surprised that that guy got taken down because he was pretty corrupt himself. And I didn't shed tears when some of those people were arrested. I also felt like the Yeltsin era was so chaotic that they needed a swing of the pendulum towards greater

state control. I just didn't anticipate what it would mean to go to a system that was controlled by an institution like the FSB with a president who comes from that institution. It's not just him. It's a cast of people who really believe that they are the anointed ones and they're a brotherhood who are loyal to each other. They're charged to run this society and they think the best way is with total information

and control. They're paranoid, they're cynical, they think everybody in the world is also cynical. They don't hate the CIA, they admire it, but they don't believe in people's movements or things like that. But ultimately they're paranoid and conspiratorial. The traditional toast that they would have at a party is death to traders. Instead of saying cheers over there,

it's death to traders. Do you regret doing so much, like when you say that technology is part of the reason that they're able to do this monitoring, you're kind of a part of it. I don't, but. But I should. No, no, no.

The reason is that the companies that we help to create do empower people to get information for themselves instead of relying on state TV or something else like that so through Yandex even now if you put in Alexei Navalny You're gonna get videos from him as an opposition figure or something else like that. So now After the war Yandex is also controlled directly by the state or by state affiliated people, but it's better than the situation would have been had it never existed.

The companies that succeeded the most from that technology area were ones that were very meritocratic from the beginning. They were anti-hierarchy. They were like tech companies anywhere in the world where if the leader of the company has a stupid or bad idea, everybody in the company should feel free to criticize it or say it's wrong. So when you think about it, it's actually the exact opposite of the FSB and the exact opposite of the system which Putin has created. So you had this kind of

bottom-up thing that was happening while there was the top-down thing. When it came to the major geopolitical conflict that happened, it was very obvious which side was going to win. But the fact that those success stories did exist, there's a generation of people that saw the success of those that learned from that culture, and it's still there. So it's kind of like seeds that are underground, but at some point those seeds will come out and flourish again.

They also improved lives of people, right? So you can say Russians are our enemies, but if you invest in businesses that improve people's lives, I don't think you can feel bad about it. Now, it's rare that I would get to ask somebody who spent 30 years there for a temperature reading on this, so I don't want to miss out on this. My first question is really, what is the average citizen? Think of Putin. Like, I think we find ourselves in an interesting situation, but we have the luxury of art being disseminated across the globe, right? So I'm watching Saturday Night Live last weekend. The first sketch is this hilarious roasting of Trump.

So I go minimally, maybe people around the world know that it's not like we're here pumped. We're sending a message through our art. What is the average citizen of Russia do you think? And I want you to break it down socio-economically. I imagine there's a difference. Yeah, there's a difference. Yeah, there was a fantastic TV program in the Yeltsin era. So however corrupt it was, there was a flourishing of different TV platforms and other things, and it was modeled off of the spitting image was the UK one with like the dolls,

was a political satire making fun of the British politicians. Yeah, with puppets. So there was one in Russian called Kukly, and they skewered in a funny way that was respectful, but humor is one of the most powerful ways to convey essential truths. And there was one episode, it was after the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko in London, who was a KGB officer who became in their eyes a traitor. He was killed with polonium in London, this huge scandal.

But anyway, on this Kukli episode, it's Putin, he's meeting with someone, and Putin says, would you like some tea? Because the guy was apparently poisoned through polonium in his tea. Putin like slides the teacup across the table, and the guy's shaking. He's like, no sir, no, no, no, no.

Like runs out of the room. And I think a week later, Kukli's license was canceled. It was the last episode that they showed. So there was a whole slippery slope of those little moments when things started to change and the direction going the opposite way. But what do the citizens think? Do they love Putin?

No, I think there's three broad groups. There's an opposition category that's probably 15 to 20%. They're like ideologically opposed to Putin. Are they mostly young people? Not only, but mostly young people. And that's where the biggest number of refugees has been since the war, people who just decided to leave. Probably between half a million and a million Russians

left since the war, but there's still quite a few people like that inside Russia. But if you stand up and protest, or you go to a protest meeting, now you go straight to jail. It's easy for people in the US to say, why aren't more people protesting? There's a second group that's probably also like 20% that are people that are passively supporting the regime. They probably wish to see

Russia is more globally connected and friendly with the West, but they also are very grieved by things that the West has done like the Iraq war, Afghanistan. After things like that, they will never be convinced that NATO is a defensive alliance. They see the pressure from the West to bring neighboring countries into NATO. There are people like that. Essentially, they're Europeans who wish that Russia would be part of Europe. They long for the days when they could travel to Europe, but they feel a little bit sympathetic to maybe Putin's view. And then there's the, I would say, 60 percent. Some people refer to it as the swamp, but it's essentially people who are classic Russians mostly living in small towns. They get a lot of their

information from state TV. They would say that those are the rules of the jungle. He's a tough son of a bitch. If you come from a gang and the gang has certain rules, you break those rules, you expect to pay the price. So that's kind of the way they would look at it. I would say they're mostly people that if they were given a choice to vote against everyone, they probably would. They mostly wouldn't say that they're political, but they're very Russian. They don't believe that Russia belongs in the West.

They think that Russia is different from everything else. They're Slavic. They don't believe that the neighboring countries around Russia really have the right to be independent because it was all part of the Russian empire. There's some from within that that are ideologically believing, but most are people that don't spend a lot of time

thinking about it. They care more about their job. Their living standards have improved in the last 20 years, especially the older people in that segment don't wanna go back to the early 1990s again, so they would be nervous about political change. You can go into a lot more detailed segmentation within that. What would you guess Putin's personal wealth to be? I don't think if you're Putin you need to own that much because you can control everything that

you can see. Because there's these rumors right that go around. He's the wealthiest guy in the world. Yeah. He could be if he wanted to be. He could push a button and become the wealthiest guy in the world by Saturday, it could be if he wanted to be he could push a button and become the wealthiest guy In the world by Saturday, but that's not to say he has there's a lot of people who've made immense fortunes under his rule and Maybe they've said to him whenever you would like your 50% just let me know but no one knows I think that he's got everything he could possibly want He doesn't need to think about having assets because he basically controls everything. Is the average citizen there aware of the grift? Russians probably tend to think that everybody is corrupt in the world and it's natural for

leaders. In the czars times, regional governors didn't get salaries because they were expected to enrich themselves off of official business. Corruption was just enshrined as part of the business model. What do you think the average Russian stance on the invasion is? When you say average Russian, that's like saying, what does the average American think about Trump, right? Well, I would say 50% hates him and 50% loves him.

Russia's not quite that binary, but maybe there's people who are more nuanced. The people from within the business elite mostly believe that the war was a big strategic mistake, but the West provoked Russia into it by promising NATO membership, and they would welcome any end to the war. Putin has a lot of room to end the war and declare victory because of his control over Russian media and information. There's a couple of red lines that he has,

but I think Zelensky has much less room for maneuver. Having mobilized this country to fight what seemed like an unwinnable fight and fighting it to a stalemate on the basis of no compromise, total victory, we're gonna get back all of our land. It's very difficult to pivot from that and say, okay, now let's find a compromise.

Well, there's also a principle at play. The Russians have no, well, I guess their principle is they were gonna to join NATO. But the principle for Zelensky is you invaded us, so you can leave and that's when it's over. If they compromise with Russia now, this is not going to be the end of the story. If you're left without security guarantees, they're going to come back and for Europe it's an issue too. You have countries like the Baltics, which could be deeply vulnerable, maybe not to invasion, but to coercion and threats and other things like that.

Yeah, if you're the neighboring countries to Ukraine and they go down, and we know what Putin's ultimate goal is, he is completely humiliated by the collapse of the Soviet Union and he would very much like to have a full Soviet Union again. I think he's very Hitler-esque in his desire to reassemble the empire. I understand why you would say there's some resemblances to Nazi Germany. I don't agree with you completely.

I think the Hitler analogy is always dangerous. I'm not saying he's gonna commit genocide. I'm saying he felt very dishonored by his country's. He did, that's absolutely true. But I also think when he first came to power, he imagined Russia as a European country and thought that by the end of his reign, Russia would be firmly anchored in Europe. He just thought he'd be able to do it on terms that would restore, quote unquote, Russian greatness.

If you remember, during the Iraq war, it wasn't just Putin who was opposing it, it was also Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schroeder. Oh, yeah, yeah, we should not have gone to. You know, him standing up or whatever with these. So there was a series of things that happened also in the bigger world that made him reappraise and think that America is hypocritical and doesn't follow the same laws that it often tries to force. And I think there's some truth to that.

But the other side is that many of these countries that were part of the former Soviet Union, they may love the Russian language, they may love Russian culture and literature, but they look at Moscow as a source of misery. And that's something that most Russians don't appreciate. Most Russians would say, look, we were the biggest victims of the communists. More Russians were sent to the Gulag than any other nationality from the former Soviet Union. So don't blame us.

It was the communists, or it was Stalin, who was a Georgian, not Russian. But for people in Ukraine or other places like that, they look at it as, you know, Moscow. They're arrogant, they've been the source of misery for us. And if we have a choice to pursue a European future, that's what we really wanna do. So that's essentially what the conflict is. I think that we contributed to the problem

through some of these mistakes like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and it was a mistake, I think, to try to offer Ukraine to be in NATO because Russia would inevitably view that as a provocation. But even if we didn't do that, I think there would have been a war anyway between Russia and Ukraine. He wants Ukraine back, period.

He can hang it on NATO, but he already went into Crimea before there was the NATO threat. Yeah, I'm not gonna try to argue with you or change your mind about Putin, but that happened in 2014 after an uprising which was a genuine people's uprising against the Russian favored leader Yanukovych and in favor of wanting Ukraine to be part of Europe. But there was a deal that was reached at the end of a long street movement. It was signed off on by the US, Russia, Germany, others.

And basically the protesters reneged on that. They forced Yanukovych out immediately anyway. And I think that was among the things which were like the red lines for Putin, where he then thought, I just cannot deal with the West anymore. There are bitter enemies. Another moment was the killing of Gaddafi in Libya

was a person he would have known by the people's uprising. So he just developed this view that the West, these are neo-con regime changers and they're coming after me. They're coming after us. And I can understand part of that. But I also think he just fails to understand that he did more to create Ukrainian nationalism than any other human being.

The more he talks about them being not a people, the more the Ukrainians are like, we are and get the hell out of here. So I do think that there was an inevitable conflict brewing up by the Ukrainians desire to pursue a European future and by Putin's view of that as something that was anathema. Existential to Russia. Yeah. Okay, so what is the path forward for Russia?

How does Russia rebuild any kind of good faith that they're a great business partner, that they're trusted geopolitically? Second question of that, aren't there several of these oligarchs who have now lost hundreds of billions of dollars? I'm shocked there hasn't been a coup to assassinate him by these people.

Again, if you understand the degree of control of the FSB and the fact that that's the ruling cast, the oligarchs and people like that are not in the ruling cast. They operate and live at the pleasure of the FSB and every one of them know that at any time, what happened to me could happen to any one of them. So the chance of a palace coup or something like that,

I think is close to zero. Got it. I hate what a terrible example of how totalitarianism works quite well. With modern technology. And even seeing like in our own country, the notion that, and I'm not on the rooftops about Trump, but the notion of disbarring lawyers

from visiting state property, getting hundreds of millions in free legal services from other law firms. I mean, some of these things are so Russian. The way the lawyers have snapped into line blows my fucking mind. The universities almost did and they just barely decided to

no fight. But that was questionable. I could see where Harvard was going to bug and I was like, he doesn't even have the tools at his disposal that say Putin has. And I'm already really discouraged by how quickly people fall in line with a real threat. You're right to be concerned about it because it's what separates us from countries like Russia. We should keep things in perspective and realize we're a million miles from that. We do have courts that are mostly independent and they've even in the last four months have proven themselves to be maybe controversial in some cases, but to be pretty good. And we have a press that reports on things transparently.

So I'm confident in our institutions that we're going to get through this, but it's going to be a stress test and it's not 100% guaranteed that we'll come through it as sound as we are. I think the system will win, but I've been shocked with some of the hits and injuries the system did already with Stan. I'm happy to hear you say that. We had a lot of fights in the beginning of this.

I love that look you just gave him right now. That was an I told you so. It was a little bit of an I told you so. One thing I do agree with though, I agree with Trump about the need for urgent negotiations to end the Russia Ukraine war. Time is not on Ukraine's side. If your goal is not to punish Russia, but to save an independent Ukraine, there should be negotiations as urgently and as immediately as possible.

And Ukraine needs help to do that because like I said, Zelensky has made himself into a corner and he needs cover to be able to make a reasonable compromise. So to me, the question is, how do you end the war between Russia and Ukraine permanently so that Ukraine survives as an independent, secure nation where both sides can declare victory? And I think there is a scope to do that, but we're a long way from it.

It may not happen this year, but there's a way for Ukraine to accept the loss of some land without recognizing it as Russian territory, but agreeing that they'll never try to take it back. For the U.S. to take NATO membership off the table, but provide some equivalent type of security guarantees for Ukraine to be fortified military. It's already the fourth most powerful military in the world today, Ukraine's. And their military manufacturing capacity is by far the biggest in Europe, and for there to be a path for Ukraine to be a member of the European Union. If that happened it would be a game-changer. Russia would not have agreed to that prior to the war, but I think there's a chance they could agree

to something like that today. And even if it meant a loss of 20% of Ukraine's territory, if they come out of it with a path towards European Union membership, then I think the kids of those Ukrainians who died or sacrificed will have achieved nothing. So I think it would be a strategic victory for Ukraine, even though it's a massive human and economic defeat for both sides. This is the kind of war that both sides are the losers from. They're both worse off.

It was a disaster from the very beginning. Oh boy. Well, what a thing you've lived through, Michael. I encourage everyone to read Odyssey Moscow, One American's Journey from Russia to Prisoner of the State. I'm glad you got out alive because that's literally always on the table.

Thanks, it is great to be here. It was very cathartic to write the book and cheaper than having a therapist. You should still probably, you know, I don't know, dabble. I think that in some ways you can write about something with more honesty than you could even talk because you have time to think about it and you really can process your thoughts.

And when I was especially under house arrest being monitored all the time, I had so much time to process all this that it was actually very healthy for me to do this and write a book in an honest way. And it's been a great way to also draw a line into that 30 years of my life and move forward to the future.

Who's gonna read the audio book? There's a wonderful voice actor named Arthur Moray who did it, so it's on Audible now. He did a great job. I narrated the epilogue and the acknowledgments section, but he made a great effort to pronounce all the Russian words, right? But his voice is much more beautiful than mine.

Yeah, but I do wonder if you would have started crying trying to read that out loud. We've had a lot of actors on who have written books. Yeah. And now they're going to read it. Some of the moments like Andrei's sentencing and things like that I probably would not have been able to get through. Do you think that there's a chance you have a little bit of Stockholm Syndrome around

Russia? Well, you may say that because of some of my... I'm more of an analyst than an activist by nature. I'm not like a political activist for one party. My business has been about analyzing things very objectively. I may be too empathetic and that I'm willing to see the other guy's or person's point of view.

In my 57 years, I lived 23 years in the United States and 34 years abroad. So I also see how people look at Americans. I see all the great things about America that makes us all proud to be Americans, but also the things that and 34 years abroad. So I also see how people look at Americans. I see all the great things about America that makes us all proud to be Americans, but also the things that we've screwed up. It's a long list. I think when I look at Russia, it's the same thing.

I also have a huge admiration for Russian people, even today. Of course, even though I wouldn't go there, it would be unsafe very much for me to go back. And I hate the system that controls the country, but I still love Russian people. I love so many things about their culture, about their sense of humor.

It's maybe the only example of ruthlessness or harshness combined with sentimentality and generosity. It's a strange mix, but for me, it's already very dear. I tell myself I understand through reading lots of Dotsievsky and loving it. There's some detached borderline sociopathic humor that I really respond to. They're just very genuine, which makes them good friends.

When you do something bad or wrong, they tell you there's no superficial nicety. When you ask a Russian friend, how are you doing? They're not going to say, fine. That's not a word that comes after that. It's usually, huh, my back is killing me or my sister's not talking to me. The truth comes out.

Exactly, yeah. Yeah, no sugarcoating. Oh, well, Michael, this has been incredibly interesting. Thank you so much for coming to talk about the book. Yeah, you guys have fascinating jobs. You get people from so many different backgrounds. We had a sex expert earlier today. She goes, are you doing anyone next?

I go, yeah, a guy was in a fucking Russian prison. It's like, what a span in one day. I was looking at the books around the room. Learning about parts of the vagina earlier today and then now this. Yeah, it is a wild job, you're right. No, it's the greatest. It room. Learning about parts of the vagina earlier today, and then now this. It is a wild job, you're right. No, it's the greatest. It is.

All right, be well. Thank you both very much. Stay tuned for the Fact Check. It's where the party's at. Oh, you're wearing the same shirt. Oh. You guys are wearing a very cute Ted Sears shirt, which I also own and will wear soon. Good colors, right?

Great colors. Yeah, I love the color. Back to your shirt though, which is much cooler. The Camel Cigarette shirt for people who are listening. Yeah, I'm trying to think, I guess if I wanted to put it in terms of fast food. Sure. If only if you liked this comp.

Like let's say Aaron and I always ate at Wendy's or McDonald's. And then he went only rallies. That's not a good comp. No. Really only Popeyes. My mom loves Popeyes. Popeyes is delicious.

Why? Are you trying to say it's bad? Oh, I love, wait. No, Popeyes is delicious. I love Popeyes. Popeyes is delicious. Why? Are you trying to say it's bad? Oh, I love, wait, what's bad? I love Popeyes. I am trying to make an analogy that way. Which is, I can agree, arbitrary. You're already breathing burning tobacco into your lungs. Might as well add some fiberglass crystals or whatever.

Oh, sure. The menthol provides some beaver anus and whatever else. This is how it kind of happened when I started Newports. I had the bar and everyone is such a cigarette bummer and hot. It is flat out annoying. I mean, I had to go through a whole nother pack just bumming cigarettes every time I was working. Because you got all these bozos who don't really smoke,

so they're not carrying a pack of cigarettes, but when they drink they like to have cigarettes. And so they ask the bar owner. Well, yeah, slash bartender. Yeah. Slash fellow drunk at the bar. You did it all. I was a man of many.

You were a client, you were a customer, a proprietor, a server, and an owner. One of my friends, I was commenting on it one night, and I'm like, these motherfuckers. And was bombing the cigarettes, he goes, dude, no one asked me for cigarettes in your bar because everyone's white. And this particular friend was a Mexican dude.

He goes, don't you ever notice when you hang out at the bar down the street, which I frequented a lot, which I was about the only white person that hung out there, mostly Mexican and black people, no one ever bombed one off me because no one wanted a camel. Oh, interesting. Yeah.

So I decided I just started enjoying them and I'm like, this would be the only frugal decision you've ever made in your life. Soon after I started smoking them and it was very true. No one you got a cigarette? Yeah, it's a Newport I said that all the time Nevermind. I'll pass. Yeah. Yeah, no cigarettes. I'm not even a smoker. Yeah, so I was like, oh my god. This is awesome, but This is not long after We sold a bar and now I'm only hanging out at the bars where people smoke Newport. So, you know, didn't work out.

And then I was already hooked on the fiberglass and all that. There was also Monica, as you as you become more and more saturated as an addict, it's harder to keep bumping it into a novel direction. And so you're smoking, you know, when you're getting drunk for the night like you're smoking two packs of cigarettes in like eight hours. And if you were doing drugs, like soon as drugs were in the mix,

we would always switch to Newport. You would add menthol into the mix. Cause the cooling. Just cause it was different and you were doing something different and you just kinda, you needed something novel. So Newports were always in rotation. Newports were great with cocaine.

Yes, great pair. I think I would like those, cause I like tingly menthol. Menthol, yeah. Yeah, it's almost, you can almost trick yourself that it's a little bit healthy. Yeah, healthy. It's the preferred cigarette of koala bears,

cause they eat eucalyptus. And they have chlamydia. And they have chlamydia, but don't mix up metaphors here. That's not the same, they're not connected. Honestly, Newport smugglers have chlamydia more. No. No. Now that you brought it up, I've always wondered,

I heard this a long time ago, did they ban menthol cigarettes in California? I think so. I think so. What the fuck are people doing? Yeah, they have to. This is a big Newport state. I don't even understand that because like.

Well, Newport, California is probably named after Newport, California. Oh my God. You're supposed to think about like the beach and fresh air, I think. And it had like those little orange lines on it. They almost seemed like maybe there was supposed to be sunshine.

There was a lot of beach commercials. They are banned, 2022. Yeah, so I mean, I know people tend to adjust, but I don't know how. Newports are named after the seaport city of Newport, Rhode Island. Oh, that makes more sense. East Coast. still maritime.

Yeah, I can picture the ads now. Definitely East Coast. Get on a fishing boat, go out for that long. Oh, catch a couple of scrubs. Find a white squall or two. Ha! Yeah, it says it has a spinnaker sail. That's the logo.

Yes, it is a sail. Sure is. I'm trying to think, what were the backup menthols? Cool was in the mix, K.O. Cool, Salem, and Marlboro had one. Gone. All the menthols are banned. And Camel, it says Camel.

Camel had a menthol, yeah. Okay. That came way later. I, you know, unfortunately I have to kind of thank them for this because this is what also banned Wintergreen Dip. This was a part of the whole sweeping no-flavored tobacco. And so I was having to get them smuggled in by my father-in-law or I was always inconveniencing someone

to get them for another state for me. And it helped because when I- You've dipped it again? Yeah, I've been dipped in a year and a half. It's been that long, okay. I've dipped twice on the bus. Well, that doesn't count. It doesn't count at all.

Right. And you were with me one time. I dipped just on the last leg of our grocery store, too. I needed to do some. I remember you decided to have one. And then I also did when I drove back from Nashville, I picked up a little tin. Do your kids care about you vaping?

They're not vocal about it if they do. Oh, and by the way, I find vapes every month in my house. That are, and they are not yours. Oh, they're not yours, okay. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. We have discussions about, but it's, yeah, do as I say, not as I do. Right, which doesn't work.

I don't know where to go with it. I'm just like, you're not allowed to do it. And I'm like, you can't do it in the house. That's absurd. Which, for the record, Aaron was allowed to smoke in his house from eighth grade. In eighth grade, we were allowed to just casually bang darts at the table.

Well, that's what you can say. Like, I'm too far gone, but you're not. I think they need- You're salvageable. I think so, yeah, so you can't. And so far, no one likes it and it's always a friend's. Sure. But-

That's what I used to say about drinking. I mean, if it was a- Did you get caught drinking? And what did your parents- No, I would just be like, oh, I went to this party People were drinking and you were too you were saying to this to them while drunk no no no no no Like after the fact like I was always like playing a game with them like I'm gonna be honest to a degree

Yes, you trust me. Yes. Yes now Did you ever come home drunk and have to talk to them? I never came home drunk. You didn't, you just would spend the night out. In high school, yeah, I would always be out. Uh-huh, and around. Apparently my brother, ooh, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I will.

When my brother was living with my parents, as an adult, he, I guess twice, came home so drunk. Shit-faced. Yes, and acting crazy. Oh, wow. He, I guess twice, came home so drunk. Shit-faced. Yes, and acting crazy. Oh, wow. He claims he, and maybe, maybe. That spike? Yes, yes.

He said for one of them, he was like, I really think something happened. Straight women aren't dosing. Who's wasting their drugs on them? That's what we always waste in drugs. Oh, I see, I see. Because we used to say that to any of our friends that we go like you just got shit-faced There's no other like someone would be like I had to have been roofied. We're like no one is wasting their roofies on you

Unless they're gonna follow you home for like their shits and giggles watch you stumble, but yeah Or you drank out of somebody a girl's drink. There you go. That could happen. Or someone accidentally spiked the wrong drink. I fucking hate people. Could also. Right?

I know, it's so horrible. When Ruthie just did a trip to Nashville with her girlfriends, a fun trip over Mother's Day weekend. None of them are mothers, they're partying. And I was like, can't believe I'm saying this, but please keep an eye on your drinks. I'm like, I just keep, it comes up in my feed for some reason.

I'm like, oh boy. We just had an armchair anonymous story of a girl who. You did. Yeah. On her big trip she won to go on a cruise. Backstreet Boys cruise. Oh, she had that as an adult. Jesus!

Which is great. Some actor had a story who had been sober and his story of why he relapsed was he was kidnapped in Palm Springs and they made him do an eight ball. And I remember Tom Arnold and I were together when we heard that story. That's a great story. And we were like,

please show us the men that are, want to get rid of their eight balls so bad that they kidnap someone and force them to snort. It's true. You must abide by the rules of drugs. Sure. To some degree. But anyway, he was great.

He was out of his mind apparently, and he was scared, and they made everyone scared. Okay, but the police weren't called. No, he was great. He was out of his mind apparently, and he made everyone scared. Okay, but the police weren't called. No, no, no. ["Armchair Expert Theme"] Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. ["Armchair Expert Theme"]

I don't know why that immediately triggered this memory of being up at Bree's house in the summertime and I used to get hammered with her dad and her brother like every night. And these things can turn right? Like somehow toughness comes up, blah, blah, blah. And then these two rightly so decided, we're both taking you. And we had a huge wrestling match in the middle of the night. It was me versus the father and son, and they definitely got the best of me by the end of it.

And then you gotta wake up the next morning, we all eat breakfast, and we all know we had a, like, a kind of cross the line tumble last night and they feel great because they beat me sure I just imagine Bree like looking out the window No, I think they heard like furniture and stuff getting smashed around the room at like 330 in the morning Anyway, anywhoo well update we did not know, be relieved to know we did not tackle the hiking trail on our electric motorcycles. You didn't because you were too tired, Aaron? I have a different explanation.

Tell me. Well, we had a glorious dinner. Eric, Nate, Weekly, and I, and we, I don't know, that was a 10, man. It was? Look, I mean, it sounds repetitive, by the way. So fun, food was delicious. Honest or no? No honest.

Okay. No honest. And then we had taken a very special car I have that I rarely ever, ever drive. And on the way home, we took kind of the scenic route, so there'd be lots of twists and turns. And there was a dude in a Mustang that wanted to party with us. Not as in an aggressive way, I just think he was pumped about the car and he wanted to...

And someone else was going fast. That's how it happens. So we had a little action through Griffith Park that was very hair raising and exciting. We ditched him, the competitor. Oh yeah, he was. I know, you don't care. But that definitely satiated my adventure spirit. Great.

Like we got home, I was like, yeah, we conquered something. It was great. We left him in the dust. We felt brave when we went to bed. So we didn't end up going, and also probably saved by the enormous week we had. I was just too afraid to be tired the next day.

TBD though, we still have tonight and tomorrow night. Oh, fingers crossed. I was on a walk and I heard some really loud rumblings outside and I thought it was you guys, but it wasn't. I always tend to, first I eye roll, that's my immediate reaction, can't help it. So selfish and loud. Yep, like, oh fuck this person.

And then I'm like, oh, but it might be Dax. And then I look and then it's not. And then I have compassion for that person. And I'm like, oh, that's somebody else's friend. That's nice. Okay, so I feel overwhelmed. Okay, great. Congratulations. By the world.

Tell me. So I don't know. I mean, I know we talk about this a lot, but social media is feeling so intense. What is it doing? Cause we have different algorithms. Yeah, I mean. is feeling so intense. What is it doing? Because we have different algorithms. Yeah, I mean. Nothing's happening in mine.

What? I mean, yeah, I'm like, there's so much stuff about what's happening in LA, and I'm like, oh God, and then immediately it's like, all these people died in a plane crash. Well, India ding ding ding. In India, and I'm like, oh my God, like, it's just like a nonstop, it's like all these people died in a plane crash. Well, India. In India. And I'm like, oh my God.

Like it's just like a nonstop, it's horrible. And then I put that down and then I turn on Mountain Head. The film Mountain Head. The movie Mountain Head, which Easter egg, we have somebody on who's in that movie upcoming. So I wanted to watch it and it. It scared you too much. It was so intense.

And it is about all these tech guys who basically like decide they wanna control the world. Yeah, yeah. And everything gets so out of hand. They release a product that gets away from them immediately. Yes. And then they just decide to kind of maybe embrace

where it's gonna take them. Yeah, and like they're all horrible. They're such disgusting pieces of shit. And I'm like, but it's like, it's too real, but it's like too intense. And then I try to take a break to go to Instagram and then that's horrible and that's horrible and that's really real. And then I was up so late.

With anxiety? I guess. And I even took magnesium and it didn't work. Yeah, what, magnesium? Yeah, the hard stuff. That's like Spain I am. I even had a warm glass of milk. That's supposed to knock you right out.

Magnesium does make people sleepy. Yeah, I think it's part of it. But it doesn't make, I guess, me sleepy. Have you ever tried searching some playful, fun stuff on Instagram? Try to change your algorithm a little? You can also reset your algorithm, which I've done once. I'm big on Corey Feldman. I know you've been there. Oh, sure, I've done once. I'm big on Corey Feldman.

I know you've been there. Oh, sure, we've discussed that. He disappeared for a long, well, actually, you know what? That might be a different kind of anxiety. Sad. Yeah. Especially for us. That might cause more anxiety.

Nevermind. I like the babies that are adults. Like the cast of the, and not him, but the cast of The office, but they're babies I love Babies, you don't like that. I love the Trump one Trump It's really funny like to picture him as a baby. There's something about it that I find to be extra funny It's very it is funny, but I just like don't want him in my you don't want more of yeah

I just I just I want more Steve Carell as a baby. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Have you ever seen Christopher Walken as a baby? either of you as a baby? No, and I'm actually, I'm a little upset about it.

Sure. You know, they have Rogan and Theo Vaughn as babies. Yeah, I've seen Theo Vaughn as a baby, and he's so cute. He has Theo's haircut. They make them so cute. It's so fun. Yeah, it's crazy AI knows exactly what cute is.

Yes. Because all of the creations are so cute. If it's an animal, if it's a baby. I know, like John Tretourne, there's severance. Isn't it funny, like we probably can't, through our own restriction, even describe what a cute baby is or a good looking person. You're just kinda not allowed to do it.

It's also hard to do, I think. Yeah, it's just interesting that AI can look at our lives as it exists online, and they immediately go, we know what you think is cute, it's this. Yeah, I know you're right. And you know too. You know when you see it. But like, I don't know if I could describe cute baby. I'm making a broader observation that as we move away from like,

it's just become completely un-PC to talk about people's looks. It's like somehow anti-progressive or something to be talking about looks. Do you agree? Yeah, probably, yeah. Yeah, and so it's not like anti-progressive or something to be talking about looks, do you agree? Yeah, probably, yeah. Yeah, and so it's not like there's gonna be a big verbal record. If you go back to the 80s, people just spoke very,

like, Brooke Shields is so hot because of this or whatever the hell they did. But even this stuff we won't say out loud, it can, it knows. Yeah, I guess I know what you mean, but I think it's almost deeper and that they do know they know something That we don't like they know what a cute baby is and I can't really put words to it Other than like I love it when they're chubby

Their faces I can't I mean I do know when I see a cute baby and when I see one I don't think It's very cute, but I don't think I can I don't think when I see one I don't think it's very cute. But I don't think I can, I don't think I could look and be like, oh, it's because of this. Yeah, this one's making me sick because of this. Have you ever told someone like, no, you really are lucky that you have a cute baby? Yes. Yeah, and then I have too. My cousin just had a baby and I'm like, oh my god You're so lucky that you have a cute baby and she's like I'm pretty sure you would have told me if he wasn't cute and I'm like

No, you would know. I don't know how to think so. No, you wouldn't know. But then I was like you just said like oh he's got a good grip. I was. Look at all that hair. Right, yeah. There's plenty of stuff to say. There's stuff to say. Also, you just lie.

You just say like, oh my God, so cute. Yes, and even an ugly baby is quite cute. Exactly. And there's something kind of cute even about the baby being kind of ugly. Yeah. Speaking of cute babies, I saw something so cute this morning.

Not ugly babies, cute babies. I saw something so cute this morning not ugly babies cute babies Yes, being very clear my friend from high school She posted this Series of stories about her baby. I guess her babies maybe like two she is so so cute, but she was like posting all these pictures of Drawings the baby had drawn or colored and it was all brown like everything was But she was like, posting all these pictures of drawings the baby had drawn or colored, and it was all brown.

Like everything was brown. And she was like, can you guess what her favorite color is? And then it's just like so many pictures of brown. And then she said, but the reason is so cute. And then she played this video and she said, what's your favorite color? And she says, brown. And she said said, what's your favorite color? And she says, brown. And she said, why is it your favorite color?

Oh, I'm sorry, I should say this baby is half Asian. And so she said, my eyes are brown, my hair is brown. Like she liked that about herself. Which was so sweet. And she said, what do you call yourself? And she said, what do you call yourself? And she said, Brown Elsa. Oh, Brown Elsa. It was so, it really made my heart melt

and I DM'd her and I said, I love this so much. And she said, she's so proud of it. I hope she never stops. Yeah, I do too. Anyway, I just thought that was heartwarming. That was nice. I like to hear it. Should we do some facts?

Sure. Okay, some facts? Sure. Okay, some facts for Michael Calvi. Fact number one. When you say couple, do you really mean two? Yeah, I don't have a lot. I wasn't gonna be honest, but I am gonna be honest that I'm not through the episode. So there might be some facts left on the table.

Okay, that's okay. But we've had a busy couple weeks and hanging on by the way. Just barely hanging on. Just barely. Okay, an Oklahoma accent. What does it sound like, you might wonder? Yeah, I am curious. Features both the Midlands and Southern dialects,

often described as a milder Southern twang or a Midland accent with a bit of southern influence You might hear a light drawl dropped ing sounds and the use of y'all Okay, now I'm gonna play a little so there's rough instead of roof and there's crick instead of Creek Hey, all my name is Damien and I'm from Oklahoma Hey y'all, my name is Damien and I'm from Oklahoma. Hey y'all. Really great station. With the exception of the five years I was in the Marines and my first year in TV, I've lived here my whole life. I've lived everywhere from the small towns to the...

Does Oklahoma City count as a big city? And today I'm going to teach you how to talk like an Okie. Wow. So the first thing you'll notice about the way we talk is that none of our words have OU in them. We mainly replace OU, boomer, with ER. For example, you would never hear an Oklahoma mom say, go and get your shoes on. Instead, you'd hear your mom say,

go and get your shoes on. We say that. And if you don't listen to her, you will end up in the ER. Also, very important, none of our words end in ing. For example, you'll never hear me say, I'm forecasting great weather for getting outside this weekend. Instead, you'll hear me say, I'm forecasting great weather for getting outside this weekend. Another thing that you'll never hear in Oklahoma are words that end in ow.

For example, instead of having pillows and windows, in Oklahoma we have pillows and windows. That one's triggering for you. Well that's great. That's a... In Oklahoma, our preferred beverage is sweet tea. But here we make it one word, sweet tea. And if you want it to sound extra oaky,'d say, hey darling, you want some sweet tea? He winked. Oh, he did? Okay, that's part of the Oklahoman charm. Okay, to me, it just sounds completely Southern. To me, it sounds Southern light.

Like if I think of the most extreme Appalachian accent, maybe, and we're gonna give that a 10, this to me is like a three or four. And then what was really interesting is you and I interviewed someone recently from Duluth. Georgia? Yeah. Yeah, we did.

From Armature Anonymous, that was so exciting. Yeah, and I was sitting there, I didn't call it out, but I'm sitting there listening to both of you, and I'm like, yeah, neither of you have an accent, which is so interesting. Suburban. So it's like, even when you say Oklahoma, I bet if you, and I'm like, yeah, neither of you have an accent, which is so interesting. Suburban. So it's like, even when you say Oklahoma, I bet if you're in some spots in Oklahoma City, you don't.

And then even where I lived in Michigan, people had a bit, a lot of those. Right, but you don't. Because so many Kentucky migrants in that big migration. And I have a bunch of them, and I have some Southern things. You have a bunch, you have words that give you away, but you don't overall sound very Midwestern. But when you were at this particular beach

called Blood Beach, a couple towns over, a lot of fights there, that's why it's called Blood Beach, the dudes that were hanging out there in cut-off jean shorts and drinking Mountain Dew and a V10 issues with no laces. They're full Southern. It's almost was like this way to be more masculine where I grew up.

Yeah. Yeah, it's like if you were, this thing I always talk about is like, if you embrace that you're white trash, which is like your only defense, I applaud it. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you all think I suck and I'm gonna lean into it. I think you'd go even further.

So it was very socioeconomically broken down in where I grew up. Some kids that were like, are you from the South? No, I'm just, I'm poor. Yeah, poor. Remember when you were a kid to be, I don't know if you ever had that fear, but being poor was a tear, that was a thing.

They're poor. They're poor. It gave you such humiliation to be poor. I didn't have that, but I did have, I want the things that these other people have, but I didn't associate it with being poor, because we weren't. So I guess that's why.

Yeah, and probably most people at your school in Duluth weren't poor either, pretty up, middle class area. I had friends growing up. The fact that your mall doesn't have a food court and it has restaurants, I mean that's an indicator. That was not there when I was growing up. It's really gone up, huh, since you. Yeah, and that's also in a town over.

But Gwinnett Place Mall was the mall, and it was indoor, and there was a food court. Okay,winnett Place Mall was the mall and it was indoor and there was a food court. Okay, good. Sparrow's Pizza. Oh yeah, all the Panda Express. But I don't remember what I was going to say. Okay, great. That's fine. You don't always have to remember. So the definition of a recession, a period of temporary economic decline during which trade and industrial activity are reduced, generally identified by a fall in GDP in two

successive quarters. That's what he said. He said two successive quarters, but he said 0.01. Officially marks a recession. Yeah. Isn't there also something with employment rate that's got to be one of the indices? Oh, a recession is not officially declared until after the fact. While there's no single agreed upon definition, economists generally use the two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth rule of thumb.

Okay, it seems like there should be a real definition. That's annoying. Econ is annoying. Like they try to make it so complex. Yeah, I think it is complex. Well, some things aren't, but they make it. They don't have to be, but they've made it complex. It's not Buddhist.

It's not. There's just so many forces that predict the outcome of the economy. It's true. It's a complex system. It is a complex system. Okay, I looked up who has the longest standing ovation in Congress because he said it was-

Yeltsin? Yes. It's not here. Every time I Google it, what comes up, it keeps, everything that's coming up is about Netanyahu. I guess he got like a huge standing ovation. Uh-huh, and pissed off Biden. Yeah, exactly.

It caused all this controversy. It says he got 28 standing ovations in 47 minutes. Okay. So that's a lot of sitting and standing. Yeah, people were on their feet. Yeah. I wonder what it was, the Churchills, when he came famously, that would be a good comp.

I know, how long was Churchills' longest standing ovvation for Congress. Ovation has to be related to ovaries. Ovulation. Ovulation, ovaries, ovum. Oh, maybe. I'd love to have a linguist. The most notable standing ovation likely occurred

during his address in 1941 where he spoke for 32 minutes. Maybe they stood the whole time. We will fight on sea, we will fight in the air. Probably that speech. Doesn't say how long, 30 minutes. You're never gonna watch that doc. Such a bummer. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, but you're right. Oh, and then I looked at Peter Thiel's investments. Cause you said it would be the equivalent basically. Yeah, I'm throwing Peter Thiel in prison. Wide range of ventures, including Palantir. It says a big data company. Okay. And startups like Airbnb, Stripe and SpaceX.

He's also involved in Founders Fund, a venture capital firm that is back companies like SpaceX and Palantir I think he also did Tesla well SpaceX he's done a few Elon things. I think he was involved with the company. He sold to PayPal Yeah, it says PayPal LinkedIn and Facebook. Oh, yeah, yeah Facebook He made a couple bucks on that one. Likely, yes. Yeah.

Yeah, PayPal. Those are the big whammies. Those are the big ones. Yeah. This is funny, does venture capitalists as rock stars is just a new phenomenon that was created by the internet in the 90s. Yeah. It didn't even exist.

Silicon Valley. There's no like famous VC people from the 70s or 80s. I know. Or early 90s. Yeah, it's true. Because the payoff wasn't there. Companies didn't 100X back then. GM would slowly gain market share and Coca-Cola would slowly gain market share.

No one, you didn't have these 10,000X returns. Like the first Facebook people, first in on Facebook, they're like in the 10,000. But like Microsoft. But again, that's 90s, that's part of their first tech boom. Yeah. And so that's when it's born. Oh, you're saying even then, yeah.

Yeah, but like pre 90, oh yes, because Microsoft's 1975. Yeah, your birthday. Yeah, 9-Eleven, best Porsche ever. Yeah, but it's like- 9-Eleven Turbo, I'm sorry, 9-Eleven Turbo. Most people don't hear 9-Eleven and think positive thoughts. They should. They need to take a ride in a Porsche 9-Eleven.

Okay, great. A rebrand. All right, that's it. All right, love you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey.