Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Michael Lewis (on the gambling epidemic)

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

Michael Lewis (Who is Government: The Untold Story of Public Service, Against the Rules, The Big Short) is a best-selling writer, journalist, and podcast host. Michael joins the Armchair Expert to discuss his dad’s advice to not waste his education to figure out what he wanted to do for a living, incredible insider art stories from being the stock boy of the Wildensteins’ private collection, and learning that the world is a conspiracy of people who understand economics. Michael and Dax talk about diving headfirst into the bleeding edge of Wall Street in the 80s, getting in trouble (but not fired) for writing an article in the Wall Street Journal claiming that everyone in his firm was overpaid, and how Chevy Chase’s dad convinced him to write his first book. Michael explains being wired to live the life you want versus one the world wants you to, hating the feeling of not telling the reader everything that’s important regardless of the consequences, and taking on the predatory sports gambling epidemic with his podcast Against the Rules.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Expert's on, expert. Oh wow, that was kind of cheerleading move you did. Thank you.

I'm Randy Shepherd and I'm joined by Lily Padme. Oh. It's an honor to announce our guests today. I'm Randy Shepherd and I'm joined by Lily Padme. Oh. It's an honor to announce our guest today. Oh, one of our radical thinkers. Yes. Michael Lewis. Michael is a bestselling author and podcaster. His books, The Fifth Risk, Flash Boys, The Big Short,

Reddit, loved it moneyball the blind side He has a awesome podcast out currently you could listen immediately called against the rules and this season is all about This pretty troubling gambling epidemic among young men Yeah, and we talk a great length about that in addition to you know all of his other great work I mean this person wrote Moneyball and the Big Short two of my favorite movies of all time Yeah, and we've left one out which is this great Wallstreet book that started it all liar Yeah, good job. You're I'm editing it, but also your you've become a real brain trust Thank you, but I can't take credit for that. I'm editing it. But also you're, you've become a real brain trust.

Thank you, but I can't take credit for that. I was editing it this morning. Okay. You are? Okay. All right, please enjoy Michael Lewis. We are supported by Squarespace. And boy, do we have a gorgeous website.

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Until May 31st, save up to $100 in rebates on select Toyo tires. Find a Toyo Tread Experts dealer near you at treadexperts.ca slash locations. From tires to auto repair, we're always there. TreadExperts.ca. He's an upchair expert. He's an upchair expert. He's an upchair expert. I just walked around the corner to your local pharmacy, Allah Boots Pharmacy, and he said,

what are you doing in our neighborhood? I said, I'm doing Dax Shepard's podcast. And he goes, I love that podcast. That guy's funny. And his wife's even funnier. That's true. She's better looking. she's more talented. I'm still having a great life in her shadow.

And there's still plenty of light over here. You get enough attention. I do, and the more she gets, the better for me. Yes. It's lovely, that's right, get a picture with her. I'll hold the camera. But also, you never walk into a dinner party and everybody just wants to talk to you, and that's good.

That's really good, because I was on TV and had a girlfriend for nine years, and it drove me mad that we would go places and people would be meeting her for the fifth time and introducing themselves. And I'm like, this fucking sucks for her. I don't know how she does this. And for you.

No one's really winning. I'm like, well, this is miserable. You've just made this person I love feel very insignificant and I don't know how she's gonna deal with this, because I think it's gonna just get worse for a while. I just read the book, I love it. Oh, thanks. So you have a circuitous path to writing,

which is you are from New Orleans, yeah? Yeah. And you go to Princeton, and you do art history. And when you started that major, had it not occurred to you, there's no employment after. Like I majored in anthro, but I knew I'll never be employed as an anthropologist. But you probably had the same experience I did.

You went into a class and you went, oh my God, this is interesting. Yes, and I had the freedom to do that. A lot of people don't. So I did too. And I not only had the freedom, I had a father who said, don't you dare waste your Princeton education trying to figure out

what you're gonna do for a living. How to make money. Yeah, he said, don't go to study economics because you're going to do for a living. How to make money. Yeah. He said, don't go to study economics because you want to work on Wall Street or that kind of stuff. He says, such a waste. And your dad was a lawyer.

He was. Does he fit the form of most lawyers where they absolutely hate their fucking job? Yeah. Yeah. He ran a law firm. He's still alive. He's still great. Good for you.

My parents are still living in the house I grew up in. I'm going to go back in two weeks. You know you're going to live to 100. What a freedom you have. I'm not going to wood for you. I still stay in my I'm gonna go back in two weeks. You know you're gonna live to 100. What a freedom you have. I'll knock on wood for you. I still stay in my bedroom from when I was six years old. So I had not only the freedom, but also a dad who had said,

don't screw it up by succumbing to this pressure. I knew that it wasn't a path to fame and fortune, but I didn't know what it was. But you were on fire for it. I was so excited. I lived for that feeling. And you had a bit of focus on archeology as well? A little bit. You've done some homework. Well, I tried to. To get out of Princeton, you have to write a thesis. I live for that feeling. And you had a bit of focus on archeology as well? A little bit.

You've done some homework. Well, I try to. To get out of Princeton, you have to write a thesis. And it's not trivial. Yours was 160 pages. What, 90? It was like 60,000 words. It's like a book.

It was narrow. I really cared about it. It was about the way Donatello used classical sources. And serendipitously, I had access to unpublished research about what Donatello would have seen. We know all kinds of stuff that's been dug up since then that he didn't know. So I could recreate the picture he had

of what Romans and Greeks were doing and think about what he saw and how he used it in his sculpture. And it had this feeling like I'm doing something no one's done before. Yeah, so exciting. When I got so immersed in something, I became a different kind of student.

I was a mediocre student when I had to do lots of shallow stuff, when it was just deep dive and get it down on paper, I became excellent. And for the first time really in my academic career. And I thought, oh, it means I wanna be an art historian. And that is when the archeologist who supervised the project said, they know jobs. Yeah, this is the most you're gonna do right now pretty much.

Actually in the thesis meeting, I must have been have been thinking oh I'm a good writer because I said to him what did you think about the writing? He said put it this way never try to make a living at it like you're not that good a writer. Oh. That's where I was in my head when I got out of college I like I don't know what I'm gonna do the professor says I'm not a very good writer he thought I was a thinker which was funny because I never thought I'd had a thought. Yeah, I was unaware of that. If you caught me there, age 21, graduating from Princeton, you'd have said, poor Michael, he has no plan.

People would have said, oh, he's charming. We like having him around. I have a lot of friends who are gonna be successful. You might get invited to some fun barbecues. Oh, definitely. That was never a problem. It was like I captured some people's imagination, but no one saw use in me.

But I got in my head, shit, if I'm not gonna be an artist or anything, I wanna write books, I wanna do that again. So that started that early. Okay, because my chronology for you, you do go get a job working for an art appraiser in New York or something, right? Wildenstein, you know the Wildenstein Gallery?

I do not. You know it because of, they call it the Tiger Lady or the Lion Lady who had all the plastic surgery. She was Jocelyn Wildenstein. She was the wife of the heir to the gallery. And I actually knew her or had met her. I was the stock boy at Wildenstein. It was just like, get the pictures from the vaults

and bring them out to show the clients. In this place, it might still be the world's most valuable private collection of art. When I was there, I mean, they had 64 Fragonards. They had 10 Cezanne's no one had ever seen. It started as Jewish rag merchants, end of 1800s, and on the streets of Paris, would trade rags with Impressionist painters.

And then they smuggled all this stuff out. Wow. During World War II, there's a whole story about collaboration with the Germans to get their stuff out. So that stuff was in there and I was the stock boy. Okay, so I had a rare experience where I knew a dude through sobriety

who was an art dealer and he drove a Carrera GT, he had like 15 incredible cars, I went to his house, he had a Magritte hanging on the wall, he subsequently was evading the law. What I found out is that that whole world is rife with con artists. There's so many people that sell art they don't actually own.

It's a very willy-nilly world, right? I feel like it needs an expose. I've thought that for a long time. That's more true of the contemporary art world than it is of the world of old master paintings or even the Impressionists. But still, there was a whole class of person who would come in and look at what might be a Raphael

to say it was a Raphael. And they were paid by the gallery to determine what it was. And all the incentive in the market is to say, it is, it is, it is. Of course. And you saw with this Leonardo that sold for $400 million two years ago. You must've seen this, this picture,

it was found by a New York dealer in a Louisiana auction house and bought for like $4,000. And it had been in a house six blocks from where I grew up for like 50 years. A New Orleans family had bought it at auction in England. Is it real? It ended up being bought by the bad dude in Saudi Arabia for I think $450 million and instantly discredited.

And it's sort of like maybe Leonardo might have seen this at some point. Oh my God. Did they get their money back? No, because it hasn't been so totally discredited. There's enough to be in a court case? There's a difference between a fake and a forgery, right? A forgery is something that is consciously pretending

to be something like you and I went and painted a Leonardo and tried to pass it off. That's an actual fraud. That's fraud. There's intention. This is misattribution. It's probably like school of, but the Louvre had a Leonardo show. The guy at the Louvre is sort of like the man, declined to include it in it. And it's just vanished. Nobody knows where it is.

Oh my God. So that kind of thing happens quite a bit. And of course when the buyers are Russian oligarchs and they're sticking in shipping containers and nobody's gonna see them again, they're just marks because yes, you may get shot if they find out, but nobody's gonna know what you did. I had in a movie, I wrote a plot line about a guy

who he wants to travel with $30 million undetected. So he has a mandria on that. He just folds up and do a backpack. You know, like it's a very cool transfer of wealth, these things, it's like how else does one hold $400 million and travel with it, but you can. But if you have a stolen work of art, you've got something that really isn't vendable,

you're not gonna be able to sell that. Right. You get the pleasure out of it, but that's all you're gonna get out of it. You get to tell your mobster buddies come over and look at this. That you have that. Can I tell one Wiltonstein story? Because this was an amazing story.

They questioned it at the time when I was there. I was only there six months. But I had a free run of the whole place because I was a stock boy. So I spent all my time looking at paintings no one knew existed. And sculptures. There was a time when Daniel Wildenstein, since deceased, the grandson of the guy who founded it, comes rolling in from Paris and he says bring me the Houdon. Now Houdon was a very famous comes rolling in from Paris and he says bring me the Houdon. Now Houdon was a very famous enlightenment sculptor. He did the busts you know of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and Voltaire. He managed to get all the leaders of the day. They're these magnificent realistic things and everybody thought they were all known. You'd open a book on Houdon you'd see all of them and to our knowledge we did not own a Houdon and so nobody knows what he's

talking about. And finally gets really upset and did not own a Houdon. And so nobody knows what he's talking about. And finally gets really upset and he marches into the elevator and motions everyone to come with him, goes down to the basement, pulls out this massive shitty plaster bust of his father, of George Willenstein, I think his name was, takes a hammer and a chisel, goes boom, it opens up. And inside is a Houdon of Mirabeau,

who was the triple agent in the French Revolution and who had Smallpox this face was all scarred and this thing was unknown to anybody They had smuggled it out of Paris and gotten it to New York. Whoa now it's known it's sold I don't know who bought it, but it was like he put a ten million dollar price tag on it and eventually it's sold Yeah, there was that kind of stuff going on You're kind of watching as they pull the Jade mascot of the burial site. Like you're getting to see the artifact

when it's first discovered in a way. Watching it come out of the plaster, that's cool. That must have been so cool as an art person to be in it like that. There was nothing to do all day because the only people who came through every now and then a billionaire would come through. And every now and then the other people who would come through

were the museum directors. And there was a guy named Tom Hoving, who was a very famous director of the Metropolitan Museum. And another guy named Everett Fahey, who ran the Frick Museum. They were just world class observers of paintings. And they would come through and I'd be left alone with them. I just told, show them whatever they want to see. Fahey, I loved him. Both of them have died since. But Fahy came through and I got to kinda know him because he came through a few times. And one time he looks at me and he goes, you have any friends who are interested

in Renaissance painting? I said, yeah, actually my dad is, he's obsessed with it. He says, this isn't very expensive. They have a couple of pictures here and I don't think they know what they have. Oh really? Wow. My father owns them.

No way! Yes, my father bought them. Because you were like, hey dad, fucking pick these up on the market. Yeah, some insider trading.! Yes, my father bought them. Cause you were like, hey dad, fucking pick these up on the market. Yeah, some insider trading. Oh wow, insider trading. Wow, I love that. Well, I mean, they sold it knowingly.

Yeah! He said, these are gems, these are interesting pictures, they're not very expensive, one was $40,000. I mean, they cost something. Yeah. What do you think they're valued at today? He has a Saint Jerome in the wilderness bashing himself in the chest with a rock.

The idea is to ward off sexual thoughts. Age-old struggle. Not an obvious thing to go and take a rock to yourself. But it's by Fiorenzo di Lorenzo, who is the master of Perugino, master of Raphael. And it's an amazing picture. He bought it for, I don't know, $100,000 or something, and it's a million dollar project. Anyway. That's great.

That's so cool I want to get into art Be careful as it warns you Here's the problem, the original point this seems like this should be a good book in the art market And I'm sure for someone else there is I have so much trouble caring about The people the people who are the victims are a billionaire collector It's just so hard to get worked up about the characters. The Saudi dude got ripped off for $450 million.

I'm kind of like, cool, I'm glad the money's here or not. Yeah, kind of rooting for the guy who ripped him off. Did you ever want to steal one? That's all I would be thinking about. I'm like, I got to get a replica to replace it. You know, that's very funny you say that because, I swear to you, that thought never crossed my mind. No.

This is the first thing I thought. I mean, it's so funny. They must smell that and keep people like that out. Yeah. But that thought never crossed my mind. What did cross my mind, this is a strange story for whatever reason. My father told me two things growing up about careers. He wasn't unhappy with being a lawyer exactly.

It just wasn't a passion project. What he was was a very gifted administrator. And so he ran the law firm. He would also end up running businesses that the law firm were entangled with. He did a lot of different kind of administrative things. He ran a big hospital for a stretch, but he said the problem with the law, unless you're a litigator, litigators love their jobs. They're performers.

They're actors in the court. He said, you're dealing with other people's problems and other people's problems are just not that interesting. You're also dealing with people on the worst version of themselves. They are in trouble, they are desperate, they are scared. You're not catching any of these people on their best day. You're catching families that are fighting over money

and it's nasty. Yeah, it's all ugly. So he kind of scared me off the law and things like the law. But for some reason he said, never take a job where you have to wear a blue suit. I think what he was thinking was banking. I don't know what he was thinking. But he had something in his head job where you have to wear a blue suit. I think what he was thinking was banking. I don't know what he was thinking.

But he had something in his head about if you have to wear a blue suit. And I thought, well, that's never gonna happen. But when I got to the Wildenstein Art Gallery, the rule was the stock boy had to wear a blue suit. And all I had was like seersucker from New Orleans. And I just wore it. And they started yelling at me, go get a blue suit.

And I said, I don't own a blue suit. It was a knock down drag out fight. And finally they took me by the hand over to the Bloomingdale's Young Men's Department and bought me a blue suit. And so the one thing I did do that was kind of squirrely was when I quit, I went in the morning before they opened and I left the blue suit on the sidewalk

in front of the place. Wow. As an act of like, I don't know what. Upper middle class protest. Yeah. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Very brave. Very brave. Very brave. Okay, so after a bit of like, I don't know what, upper middle class protests. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Very brave. Very brave. Very brave.

OK, so after a bit of this, you do realize I'm going to need to make a living. And you decide to go to the London School of Economics. That was a bank shot, because I had a girlfriend at the time who was getting out of college, and she really wanted to go to the London School of Economics. OK, great. And you wanted to be with her.

Yeah, so I followed her. And I also had the thought, the world is a conspiracy of people who understand the language of economics. All these classmates of mine in college seemed to throw away their college lives studying something they didn't care about, but in exchange they got a pass. They got a pass to wander the halls of Goldman Sachs. They could talk that language. And I thought I'm gonna go learn that language just to go learn that language. I was suspicious. And I had one class in microeconomics when I was a senior that I took pass fail so I didn't have to do very much work so I could

focus on my thesis and I remember thinking why didn't I realize this was interesting. I stayed away from it because all these people I disapproved of were studying it rather than going and seeing what it was and actually some of this is really an interesting way to see the world. Oh when I learned of in combination with your Vanity Fair article and this great frontline about the meltdown, when I learned about the complexities of the credit default swap and about the instruments that no one at the firm understands except for three people, that is fascinating.

That's finance. So that wasn't even this. This was like, what's the difference between a compliment and a substitute in the marketplace? Or when prices go up, what happens to demand and supply? Like Adam Smith. Yeah was Adam Smith 101. I thought wow markets are fascinating. They're like a living organism They're cool. They are cool and one school of economics gave me a chance to play catch-up They had a program where they put you through their whole undergraduate program in a year and you got a masters in year two My father in his wisdom he called the Lewis family. And this is the joy of being raised with privilege.

He said, as long as you're doing something, I will cover your expenses for the first three years out of college. Oh, love that. So I was working as the art dealer, but I didn't get paid very much. I actually became a woodworker, as an apprentice for six months.

And then I went to the one school of economics for two years. And that was, in a lot of ways of ways transformative that's where I started publishing stuff I started submitting things Willie and Ily to magazines and the British are much more receptive than Americans to amateurs it's not who are you they just read it and go wow I like this. That's almost counterintuitive to me I think of Britain as being much more steeped in social hierarchies and prestige. That's true but there are many fields

that we treat as professions that they treat as crafts. Yeah. Or guilds. You don't have to go to journalism school. You're just writing. Yeah, I have a great friend in Britain who's a journalist. And yeah, he didn't go to it. And he's incredible.

No one cares if you wrote for the school newspaper. All they care about is does the piece work. OK, so the writing started then. That's where it started. So then you go and you trade bonds or you sell bonds. I mean, it's a wild story. You have a cousin in London who's kind of aristocracy. She married into it.

New Orleanians understand this language more than anybody on earth. She's my first cousin once removed. Yeah, no one knows what that is. I never understood this. Which means she's my mother's first cousin. She married Baron Patrick von Stauffenberg. Fucking A, let's go.

He is the nephew, you know the von Stauffenberg who put the bomb onto Hitler's table? No. Yes, his uncle was the one who tried to assassinate Hitler. Whoa, that's a cool one. And he's great, they were great. I got to London and they had dinner parties and I would be the young person they would invite over

to amuse the older people. One day she says, I got an extra seat at a dinner and it's in St. James's Palace. It was hundreds of people, but the Queen Mother was coming and she said you can meet the Queen Mother and I thought why not? You know is the Queen Mother just the Queen the Queen's mother She was Queen Elizabeth's mother, okay great and I was sat between two women both of whose husbands ran Solomon Brothers London office and at the end of it one of them said Whatever you're doing you stop doing you ought to come work for my husband come work at Solomon Brothers London office and at the end of it one of them said Whatever you're doing you stop doing you ought to come work for my husband come work at Solomon Brothers

Which I can read between the lines of charm the fuck out of these the fix was in at that point I went over and had interviews, but it was kind of like whatever everybody seemed to like me out right when I walked in The door and then I got offered this job. We talked about learning the secret language of what's really going on So yeah, that's how it happens By the way, you talk about learning the secret language of what's really going on. It's like, yeah, that's how it happens. If your wife says hire them, they will. So this is really true. It masquerades as a pure meritocracy.

The first break is not pure meritocracy. Mm-mm, no. I had that point in my head. I was getting out of school, and at this point, the Lewis Plan was over. I had to make a living. I was publishing stuff, but I was being paid so poorly. You couldn't live on it. And I thought this when I got out of college, when I started to write stuff that didn't get published.

Have lots of experiences. Writers have this problem, they just become writers, and then they don't know anything but writing, and that gets very boring, and you write books about being a writer. Plays acting as well. You've been pretending to be other people since you're 18. You didn't get any real experience to pull off.

Yeah, you're playing a factory worker, you never even worked. How do you enter into that space? Yeah, that's right. You don't have to rely heavily on imagination. And a bag of tricks, probably. So I thought, and still think, whenever you have a chance to have meaningful life experience

that isn't writing, have it, it will inform the writing. And it gets harder and harder to do that. You're typed as the writer. Yeah, the more successful you are, it almost hinders you in that way. True, because you don't have to do it. A lot of interesting stuff happens because you have to do it. But I thought of Wall Street, not only is it going to pay me a bunch of money, but this

could be interesting to write about. No, to peek behind the curtain of this culture, which is elusive, how could you not be intrigued to see what's happening back there? It was Wall Street in the 80s. Yes. Nobody quite understood what had just happened. Why were young people who had just come out of college being paid the equivalent of $100,000 or something to start when they clearly didn't know anything?

Like, what was that all about? It was also true that serious quantitative ability was starting to get valued. So this was the moment where they're starting to grab people out of like the physics department at MIT and it was just happening in our place. We were the bleeding edge of that. And as chance had it, it wasn't just that I got a job on Wall Street. At that moment, the firm I joined, Solomon Brothers,

was making more money than all the other Wall Street firms combined. What had happened is there's been an explosion in indebtedness in the society. The government was borrowing lots of money. There was the invention of mortgage bonds. When did those get invented? Late 70s, early 80s?

But the market was exploding and Solomon brothers had historically been this place was kind of a sleepy backwater But they're really shrewd Traders of bonds and bonds were always thought to be like that's not where the money is stocks are where the money is Yeah, and all of a sudden bonds were where the money was and what happened in that place was the best story on Wall Street An atomic bomb of money. Yeah, and a crazy place that, although when I got to it, had become a public corporation. They had sold stock in themselves. They had pretty recently been just a private partnership.

And the behavior in the place was like the behavior you would have in a private men's club, where nobody was ever gonna see what happened there. And it was literally every third day, some stripper would come in, take off all their clothes on the desk. Yeah. Dudes are throwing spitballs at each other. I mean, everyone's acting like they're 13, right? And it was literally every third day some stripper would come in take off all her clothes on the desk These are throwing spitballs at each other. I mean everyone's acting like they're 13, right? Yeah

Buying too much food just to show off the material was fantastic. Yeah What about coke? How much were you seeing coke? I need a little more coke in this story It's a coke or quail ouds. I hesitate to come the Coke. Because I'm pretty naive about drugs. Oh you are. Alcohol's great, I never really needed anything more. But we would agree it was all fueled by Coke. It was fueled by almost like a gambling addiction. But that's what you saw, it's this compulsive behavior. People were betting money for the firm

and when they weren't betting money for the firm, they were betting with each other on anything they could bet on. Liars poker. Dice, one thing after another. Horses, sports. It was just constant gambling. And I got my problems, but that's not one of them.

I don't care about it. But it was fun to watch and fun to describe. They let in all kinds of characters. It wasn't cookie cutter people. Former Navy fighter pilots and former professional athletes and people who just come off the street and shouted their way into a job. It was hustlers. That's an energetic vibe. Very energetic. In some ways I love that part of the place. Yeah I bet it would be intoxicating just to be

involved in it. It was. It was also intoxicating because I was by their standards kind of an intellectual. I had gone to Princeton. I had a master's. I thought all the time about things. You know about art. Yeah that kind of stuff. Triggering stuff. Andiggering stuff. And so there was a training class for six months where it was not like teachers from out of the place. It was the actual traders paraded through and you could ask them anything.

And I was the guy who always had his hand in the air and was grilling them, trying to understand what they did. I got to master the subject because they let me do it. Yeah. It's a moment I don't have anymore. I know what goes on on Wall Street a little bit, but at the time I felt like I knew more about what was going on on Wall Street than anybody.

And so much of this stuff is brand new. Everything's been digitized. That's right. The young person is learning it and the old people don't know it. It was absolutely thrilling for about a year and a half. And then I hit some cliff. All of a sudden there wasn't that much to learn

and what I was supposed to be doing is selling people stuff they shouldn't buy. And you're surrounded by toxic human beings who are in a nosedive. I remember just going home at night and staring at the ceiling thing. I can't believe I just did that. You did a bad, bad thing and I was rewarded for it.

I was successful. I was in the loan office and my clients were people who were managing billions of dollars. It wasn't widows and orphans, but my job was to get them to do stuff They probably shouldn't do or sometimes they should do it, but mostly not yeah and in a funny way This is a little crude it was to get them to take the other side of bets that our own traders were making So these are not good bets. That's what's fucking wild as you learn about how all these banks work They're playing every single side of it. They used to be. With some tiny margin.

That's right. It's like in your podcast, the guy who figured out on a New York Knicks versus Lakers game, the odds in New York are gonna be different because they're biased by loving the Knicks and then the Lakers betters are gonna be biased. So the spread in those two places,

there's something to be made there. There's like a point off. Yeah, that's right. You bet the Knicks in Los Angeles and the Lakers in New York. And you're gonna win. Or at least you're not gonna lose. Get different point spreads in point off. Yeah, that's right. You bet the Knicks in Los Angeles and the Lakers in New York. And you're gonna win. Or at least you're not gonna lose. Get different point spreads in different places.

Yeah. I got to a point where I was faking it. And when I started to fake it, I started to do less work at work and started to write more articles about what was going on at work. And I got in trouble. I was wondering the fallout,

because it's nonfiction, you're using everyone's names. This is what happened. I wrote a article for the Wall Street Journal's op-ed page saying everybody on Wall Street was overpaid Jump at the bottom of it. It said my name and I was an associate at Solomon Brothers in London Oh, yeah, this is how delusional a 24 year old is though. I remember thinking it's so cool I was thinking I'd come in the boss would go'd go, man, you have an article in the Wall Street Journal.

No. That's not what they said. You thought everyone had your same primary desire, which is to be a published writer. I get to work. The guy who's the husband of the woman, the guy who hired me, who ran the whole Solomon Brothers is waiting for me at my desk. I really liked him. And he looked so sad. Oh. Oh.

And kind of gray. And he said, Michael, what have you done? He said, I've been up all night. And I said, why? And he said. You're reading my article? Yeah, we're gonna read it. Because it's so good.

Because you love my article so much. And he said, no, we had an emergency board member meeting because of the article. And I said, oh. Very oddly, there were a bunch of reasons that they didn't want to fire me It would have looked horrible if they fired you'd be like a whistleblower. No, that wasn't it at all What was it? I had stumbled into the second or third most profitable client the firm had who I didn't do anything useful for they were just amused that I was there and I would tell them the things I was gonna write the guy said I don't need any advice from people like

you if you just tell me what you're saying that will be useful enough and I'll funnel all my business through you is Jacob Rothschild the Rothschild the guys who ran his money and they became so big that I was just a money machine all I was was not offensive to them I wasn't trying to sell them things they shouldn't buy and they were gonna buy something they call or sell something. And they let us make money off them. It was really pretty funny because I was 24. They refused to talk to anybody else in the firm.

Oh, I love this move. So extremely important people, including the CEO, would come to London and want to meet them because, my God, they're there, the second biggest client of the firm. And they would say, no, thank you. We just want to talk to Michael. Wow. This is awesome. So in a way, no thank you, we just want to talk to Michael. Wow. This is awesome.

So in a way, they made me possible. They protected me. So the guy wasn't going to fire me. His name was Charlie McFay. Great guy. He says, we got to find a way this doesn't ever happen again. You can't write.

He said, it's what I love to do. And I'm going to keep doing it. And he goes, could you find another name? Oh. And I said, that's not a problem. And I don't know why it popped into my head. I said, what if I use my mother's maiden name? Diana Bleaker Monroe. So I wrote some things under the name of Diana Bleaker. Oh. Interesting

because now we've changed genders. I wonder what that does to the reception. That's what he said. He said, this is perfect because none of these people around here are gonna think a girl's a guy. Right. Exact quote. He said, no one will think about it. It never would say Solomon. It would just say Diana Bleecker is whatever. Now The New Republic then was a pretty hot magazine Michael Kinsley was an editor of Genius. Michael Kinsley who published some of my first pieces, some of them under the name of Diana Bleecker He refused to just let it sit at that So he would put the bottom of the article Diana Bleecker is a pseudonym. One day I got home

And I got a landline call. I pick up the phone and the actor Chevy Chase, his dad was named Ned Chase, and Ned Chase was a prominent non-fiction editor at Simon & Schuster. Oh wow. He said who he was. I can't remember if he told me that Chevy was his son. He did.

Yeah. He was guaranteed that he did do that. He definitely did. He might have. And he said, I just figured out you're Diana B he did. Yeah. We can always guarantee that he did do that. Let me help you out, he definitely did. He might have. And he said, I just figured out you're Diana Bleeker. Ah. He said, and you really need to write a book. And at that point I thought, you'll pay me to write a book?

I'm outta here. It had to be a pay cut though. Oh, well a huge pay cut, but I wasn't even thinking that. It's as long as I can live on it. So I remember this, it would have been like September of 1987, because I realized at that point I got to stay till January because my bonus will hit my bank account in January so I got to fake this until January. Once a month I would fly back to New York to bring

clients to the Chicago Exchange or to go hobnob with the people on the New York trading floor and I had with me a notepad out when the stock market crash of October 1987 happened. And I was just wandering the Solomon Brothers trading floor, writing what ended up being a chapter in the book. And I was already thinking, I got a book in this. Yeah. Funny that nobody is like, Michael, what are you writing?

So that happened right before that. And then I told them I was leaving in January of 88, and the book appears in the fall of 89. There's one other funny little footnote. They were charming in their way. They were crude, crude, socially unacceptable, misogynist. But if any one of these guys was sitting here, you would like them. You would say, Michael, you're an asshole for having sold them out. That's a real guy. You shouldn't have done that. They were not phony slick investment bankers. They were like street hustlers. And I was very

fond of them. Not all of them were that way, but a lot of them were that way. So you've seen this chick has just written a book about Facebook called Careless People has just come out and Facebook has sued her and she's not even allowed to go on television to talk about her book. And she signed some sort of non-disparagement agreement

when she was leaving Facebook. So she can never talk about it now and they have to pull the books to the shelf. Because people like you have made everyone else wise. Something like that. So I didn't sign anything. And not only had I not signed anything, I told them I'm quitting to go write a book.

And I'm going to write a book about Wall Street. Why not tell them, right? And some big shots brought me into a room and asked me what are they paying you? And I said, I think it's like $40,000 vans. They had just given me like $160,000 bonus. And that was like for them chump changes, like said, I think it's like $40,000 vans. They'd just given me like $160,000 bonus. And that was like for them chump changes,

like next year it's gonna be $400,000. Oh my God. They brought me in a room and the tone was they were troubled. They were really worried about my mental health. They thought I was screwing up my life by leaving what they thought was a sure fortune to go write a book.

Who was gonna read a book. Right. They cared about my well-being. I'm a regret saying this because it'll come back to haunt me. I have said it a few times, I don't think I've ever said it publicly. One of the guys, and he was extremely senior in the firm, said, Michael, we think you could run the firm one day.

Oh my gosh. And I remember thinking, you're out of your fucking mind. I can hardly show up, I can't brag myself to work. Then I run the firm one day, but they thought highly enough of me in that moment. They just cared. Well, how intriguing you must have been to them too. Oh my God.

I don't know. I think so because you all seemingly have the same goal, which is like, let's make a bunch of fucking money and let's make it for our clients. And to see someone have gotten to the place they're all desiring to be and to leave is just very intriguing. Well, it was weird. This is Bradley from your podcast. To go be a Rhodes Scholar, that's so intriguing. Instead of going to

the Knicks right away. David Robinson, instead of going right to the Spurs, goes into the Navy. Roger Staubach does the same thing for the Cowboys. Some people go on Mormon missions. Fucking Tillman. Yeah, people do that kind of thing. It's far more noble than anything I did to go and fight for your country. Yeah, yeah. But to be wired so that you're insisting on living your life instead of the life

the world wants you to live. And that sounds like, oh, of course you live your life. But actually, there are always incentives to do stuff that you really don't particularly wanna do. You just get on an exit and you're on that road. And it takes a great deal of effort to exit it. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. I'm Indra Varma and in the latest season of The Spy Who,

we open the file on Hardy Amis, the spy who dressed the Queen. Fashion designer Hardy Amis is a star of Savile Row, dressing Hollywood actors, sports heroes and royalty. But in the shadows, Amis plays a central role in Operation Ratweek, a campaign of assassination in Nazi-occupied Belgium during World War II, his instincts extending far beyond the cut of a suit. As the Allies prepare to invade Belgium, one man, Prosper De Zieta, the man with the missing

finger, slips through their grasp and aids German intelligence in hunting down British agents. The question is, can Amy's tailor plan sharp enough to find De Zieta? Follow The Spy Who on the Wondry app, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Or you can binge the full season of The Spy Who Dressed the Queen early and ad-free with Wondry+. I'm F.'Hirsh.

I'm Peter Frankipan. And in our podcast Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we're talking about Joseph Stalin, a murderous dictator who saved the world from another murderous dictator. The man who defeated Hitler, but also the man who oversaw the deaths of millions of his own people. How did he get away with it and why is he so popular in Russia today?

He is such a singular character for the scale of his brutality, for the psychopathic desire for power. What do you think Peter? I'm not completely convinced about the glories of the socialist revolution but we're going to take Stalin from the streets of Gori in Georgia right the way through to the centre of power as Russia transforms into the Soviet Union and then into a global superpower and to see how Stalin did it, how he got away with it and what his legacies look like today. Follow Legacy Now wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wondrary Plus.

Lamont Jones's world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County PA, a chilling true story of corruption and cover-ups that begins as one man's search for answers but soon reveals a disturbing pattern. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many, and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County PA pulls back

the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story, it's happening right now. Follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County PA early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names, about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your

podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. This is a byproduct of first being raised with incredible privilege so I don't fear starvation. So that's a necessary condition there. But it's also a byproduct of first being raised with incredible privilege so I don't fear starvation. So that's a necessary condition there. But it's also a byproduct of being from New Orleans and being raised in a pretty happy, very kind of family-oriented environment where you didn't get measured by your success,

except in sports. But nobody knew what anybody else's dad did for a living. Or kid. And- That's unique. A value system was a little different. But I knew what happiness felt like. I also a living or kid. Yeah. That's unique. A value system was a little different, but I knew what happiness felt like. I also think New Orleans, New Orleanians,

whatever you call them, I think they also value personality more than other places. What is really rewarded is openness to other people, openness to casual social interaction. Being entertaining is highly valued, but it isn't highly valued in a very self-conscious way. It's just appreciated and encouraged. Yeah, yeah. To be a character is cool.

Yeah. Okay, so the book comes out, it's very successful. It is one of the seminal works from that time. It goes right to the top of the New York Times bestseller list. Wow. And I'm nobody, and I'm 28. All of a sudden, I have a career. People are telling me I'm a born writer, which comes as news to anybody who ever taught me. Yeah, you should send that to the professor. Or the English teachers throughout time.

It was like, I always had problems. And so it is a curious situation to be in. So my one follow-up question, because now that is 30, however many years. That was 1989. 36 years in the Review Mirror. And I imagine you have a similar dissonance that Oliver Stone has where Wall Street,

although it's supposed to be a cautionary tale, was very inspiring to a lot of people to actually get into Wall Street. How do you take the fact that many people read Liar's Poker as a how-to? They want more tips. So this was a great lesson to me about how people read books.

They read the book they wanna read. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a letter after I wrote The Big Short from a very intelligent, very serious, very upset Oxford Don, a philosophy, I saved it, I don't remember his name, saying, "'You were responsible once for diverting "'all this young talent to Wall Street.

"'I thought you might have learned your lesson, "'but you've now done it again with The Big Short, and you really ought to take responsibility for what your readers do with your books. And I'm not unsympathetic to the criticism. Maybe I should take more responsibility for the consequences of the books. However, if I do that, the books are gonna suck.

Also, the person who wants to read The Big Short and get that message is in search of that message and will find it somewhere else. And I just talked to us the other day, it's like JD Salinger cannot take responsibility for two assassins holding his book. I'm sorry that those people felt inclined. John Lennon's assassin was reading the book

at the scene of the crime. There's been a suspicious amount of people that have found the inspiration to assassinate people. Now I read that book as one of my favorites. I certainly didn't get that message. No. Yes, Bill Gates's favorite book. He started Microsoft. But it's not on JD's. He can't fucking decide how people are gonna... And it isn't that every young person who read the book said, no I want to go work on Wall Street. Because I've had plenty people say, I read it and I hear what you thought it might have done

and did that for me. It demystified it for me and I thought I don't really need to go do that. I'm gonna go do what I'm gonna go do. So I had plenty of people say that, but I've had more people say, it's why I went to Wall Street. But those people would have found some other reason. Exactly, I do think there's an appeal to it. I get it, it's like if you're a young dude,

it's the closest you can get to have a career that is playing a video game. You chase points, more points, you're in a constant state of dopamine and reward center being triggered and all the addiction things. I get it. People who wanna live at 11, that's the spot for you.

Yeah, you get to play a video game with a stripper on your desk. Yes, while eating too much guacamole that you've ordered. No, that's right. Yeah, yeah. I think there was this other thing. Books have dog whistles. And sometimes you don't realize what the dog whistle is

until you say, oh my God, look at all these dogs running because of the book. And the dog whistle is until you say, oh my God, look at all these dogs running because of the book. And the dog whistle for this book was, I persuade the reader, because it's true, that I don't know anything. Art history major, yeah, I studied economics, but that doesn't teach you how to make money on Wall Street. I get to Wall Street, yeah, I learn intellectually how these markets work, but I know nothing I say to you is going to cause you to go get rich.

And if I knew something, I go to our trader And tell him to do it and make money for the firm There's almost no way that what I'm saying has actual financial value and yet the world is paying me a fortune for it There are lots of young men sitting at American universities who think I don't know anything And no one's ever going to pay me to do anything because I don't know anything but look He doesn't know anything. Yeah look, he doesn't know anything. And they paid him a fortune. This is the place for me. I'm just like him.

Or Hollywood. Yeah. There's a lot of options. Or I'm just like him. I identify with you. And wow, it pays to be that. And so that happened a lot. I do wanna talk for a second about, big short,

because I have the enormous pleasure, and I want to thank you to your face, to getting an issue of Vanity Fair, where you started writing in 09, and reading the article that led to that book. Or maybe that was an excerpt. It was Portfolio Magazine. Is that what it was?

It was a kind of NAS Magazine, but the Big Short starts when an editor of Portfolio calls me and says, you wanna revisit. And I said, nobody will talk to me. I am just toxic. If anybody sees me on a trading floor, anybody who brought me in is gonna get fired. Who's the guy who rattled the automotive industry

with a safety glass? Ralph Nader? Yes, he'll be like the Ralph Nader of finance. I just thought I'm toxic. But however, I sensed that the things that had gone wrong in these big Wall Street firms had their origins in my experience at Solomon Brothers and that this was kind of the end of a story that I had written the beginning of. And then I started just trying, calling some of the guys who had lost all the money for

the Wall Street firms. And they were individual traders who had lost like $10 billion. For me it was unthinkable because the place I left, the Wall Street firm had such an informational advantage in the market, they seemed to just win every time. And I thought that was gonna happen forever. Somehow the Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley and Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, had become the dumb money at the table.

I thought that's the story. Well, AIG the most. AIG too. They were selling the credit defaults They were selling all these people were selling insurance And I just want to say to people really quick a credit default swap it basically is in concept I own a million shares of General Motors I want to make sure I have a little insurance in case it ever goes out of business that I don't get wiped out

So that's a credit default swap, but you actually don't have to own a million dollars of stock This is the fucking major hiccup in the premise of this product. So I can say, I wanna insure 10 million shares of Berkshire Hathaway and then launch some scandal. I could buy fire insurance on your house. Now what incentive does that create? That you want my house to burn down. I want your house to burn down.

That's an insane product. There is a wonderful New Yorker writer named Casey Sepp who wrote a book about Harper Lee and In this book she creates the book that Harper Lee was trying to create when she got blocked And it's about a minister in the south who bought life insurance policies on other people and then murdered them Made a huge living yeah, yeah, You should not be able to buy insurance policies on things you don't own. Exactly.

Or lives that aren't yours. That's right. However, Wall Street creates this product where you can buy insurance policies on securities you don't own. And they're astronomical, people should know. So it's like the factor of I can insure a million dollars worth of stock I don't own

for very little amount of money. The returns were astronomical. It's pennies on the dollar. I can buy a billion dollars insurance for a few million dollars on these bonds that are never gonna go bad. And Lehman Brothers, which people own credit default swaps on Lehman Brothers, started as a rumor

that took down the firm. That's right. So they create all these incentives to destroy all these companies. But it dovetails nicely into the fact that you started when mortgage-back bonds happened because now we have all these mortgage bundles that were being sold all over the place.

And you buy shirts on them even if you didn't own the things. And so I wander back into Wall Street for Portfolio Magazine and I start calling some of these traders and they wanna talk to me. That's when I thought, Christ, I might be able to do this because I can get that side of the story. And it turned out they wanted to talk to me because Liar's Poker was why they were on Wall Street. After about 10 of these, it was like I created the financial crisis with this book. Stories need structure. And there were two aha moments.

One is, oh, they were the dumb money. Who's the smart money? Michael Burry. Yeah. That's among the most interesting stories I've ever read. It's such an amazing personal story encased in this kind of world event, but the notion that you have a man who has a wandering eye or a lazy eye and believes that's why he's a glass eye even better. And that's why he's not social and that's why he explains all of his awkwardness with all of his relationships through this glass eye and then he's a fucking surgeon training to be a neurologist and then starts trading and he's the only person willing to sit down and read the actual loan applications and then wins and has a son who clearly is autistic then takes the test and as he's saying my son does not have autism and he's getting

100% I mean what a fucking story. There was this cliche on Wall Street when I was there, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, and he was actually the one-eyed man who was king in the land of the blind. And there's this other thing about him. It wasn't until the movie came out that I understood it. Christian Bale plays him in the movie. Christian Bale nailed him so unbelievably exactly

on the screen, and I had the thought, I could not have described to Christian Bale what he needed to do to play that role. How did that happen? So Christian Bale finally confessed to me what he'd done. Michael Berry said, Christian Bale called me up and said he wanted to spend the day with me,

and it was the weirdest day I've ever had in my life. But Christian Bale came and studied him for a day. He was you on the trading floor. That's right, and asked for his clothes at the end of the day. So Michael Berry shipped him his clothes, so he so he wore his clothes. But Christian Bale figured out that all the weird mannerisms he said it all came from him breathing in the wrong places in sentences. If you try this if you if you do this all of a sudden you're herky jerky in all kinds

of odd ways and he's told Adam McKay the director as long as I'm breathing in the wrong place I will reproduce this guy's physical. He is the best living actor I'll be on record saying he's impossibly good. There's something about when someone is really good at what they do there's a simplicity to it everything slows down for them when he said that I actually thought first I'm ashamed that I spent a year with Michael Berry and I did not notice that. You wouldn't have been able to pinpoint that. It was his breathing that was wild. I just hated to notice things

and I never noticed that, but yes, it's true. And then I thought when I go write about people, I'm gonna try to spend a little time pretending I'm Christian Bale and asking myself if I'm Christian Bale, how do I play him? If I had to be him. Yeah. What are the physicalities?

Even funnier as a protocol is you call the subject and you go, I wanna do a piece on you, but first I'm gonna send actor Christian Bale in for a couple hours and then I'm gonna meet with Christian then I'm gonna come talk to you. It's a very unconventional approach I have to writing, but you will be sitting with Christian Bale first. I have this assistant, spend a couple hours with you

just to tell me how to describe you. The movie's so good. Were you so happy with it? Yes. More than happy, I was shocked he pulled it off. I thought it was undoable. I didn't see how you made it. People buy stuff all the time they're never gonna make. I thought this is one of those.

It's incredible. But he had to get really creative. And he nailed it and it's got real relevance now. I think that event, the financial crisis, speaks to this moment in our politics right now. The anger it created, and it was a justifiable anger. All of a sudden, we go from a society where everybody's at least willing to at least pretend to believe that it's capitalism and we're all living by the same rules. It's fair, but it's harsh. Then all of a sudden, no, these rich people are not

playing by the same rules. If I fail, I fail. If they fail, the government comes in and not only bails them out, but enables them to keep paying themselves huge sums of money when what they did caused enormous harm to me. They should at least be out of business. Down to if you were on a line making SUVs for General Motors that hit you.

It just really knew no boundaries, that crisis. It radicalized a lot of people. Yeah, and it's funny, because you can read about savings and loans scandal, Milken, right after you wrote Liar's Poker, and you kind of think, oh, okay, we identified this thing we must be aware of, but then it resurfaces in 2008, and you go, okay.

And then what you really have to admit is, this impulse is never going anywhere. It'll be whack-a-mole for eternity. This is the nature of people. I think that's right. And it'll have different shapes over your lifetime, but you're going to witness these things every 15, 20 years. And that's kind of the reality on this planet.

That's my cynical takeaway. But if you think about what came out of that event, the Tea Party, which morphs into Trump. Tea Party even into QAnon. Yeah. And Bitcoin, which is a reaction to the mistrust of the institutions and the governments. I remember when I was reporting the book, one of the obstacles I faced was that the smart people who'd been on the right side, and it often tried to do the right thing. They didn't just make the bet, or in one case, before they made the bet, they went to the

Wall Street Journal, they went to the FBI, they went to the SEC, and nobody wanted to hear about it. They made the bet sort of more in sorrow went to the FBI, they went to the SEC, and nobody wanted to hear about it. They made the bet sort of more in sorrow than in greed, but they were terrified that the society's gonna wake up and it's gonna have to turn on someone, and they're gonna turn on me, because I made all this money out of it. And getting the subjects comfortable with me coming in

and talking to them to write about them in a way that was gonna make them very prominent made them very nervous. Yeah, you're saying, wait, somehow this guy made a billion dollars during this? Like the two guys? Those two guys were the most sensitive. Yeah, I bet. They seemed like such sweethearts. Two young guys in the garage in Berkeley.

Yes. Now, what wasn't in the book, it was the one time in my career, I regret allowing a subject to tell me, we'll tell you everything, but there's one thing you have to keep out. Dome has ever done it to me before, but I thought in this, but there's one thing you have to keep out. Dome has ever done it to me before, but I thought in this case, I should do it, it was worth it. His father was the vice chairman of Lehman Brothers.

He and his father had this argument while they were making the bet, because the father had funded the firm. Like the father would say, Lehman Brothers would never do such things. And Lehman Brothers would never be in this position. And the son saying, no, your firm's actually corrupt. It got very heated.

If you were ever gonna turn this into a different kind of drama, that father-son thing, it'd kill me, I couldn't use it. Yeah. That would be very frustrating to be telling this whole story and to be leaving out such a compelling part of it. I hate the feeling that I haven't told the reader

everything I think is important. Yeah, or I mean, you know. It was the one time I felt, this is kind of important, the reader should know this, but that was the only time. I have moments like that in my life. I remember I stopped blurbing books like 20 years ago because someone I had a social connection with asked me to blur the book. I didn't like the book. I could not do it. So I was lying on the back of the book. I said I'm just never doing this again. So I'm never gonna do this again either. If I can't include all

of it, it was worth it but uncomfortable. We cut stuff in here that any guest wants cut. And our feeling is generally more just like, oh what a bummer, that's a really good spot, and they're too nervous about this. How often does that happen? One in five, one in 10. There are very few times, but there have been times that I've pushed back.

There's a reason why this is important to keep in. Can we please- Yeah, most often it's heartbreaking because they're worried about the reaction and it's so clear that the reaction would be very positive and supportive. And human. And it's just like, you don't see

that this is actually great. It's never like, oh damn, we don't have a juicy thing. It's just like, oh man, you don't know that this is actually quite endearing about you. So this is very funny you say this because universally, when I write a book, the main characters are a little upset with me because I don't give anybody any editorial control and they read it when it comes out and they call, we have a conversation,

they don't feel betrayed exactly, that's not right, they feel like I have exposed them. They feel very vulnerable. They feel naked and they're upset that they're naked. And then what happens is people appreciate them. Yes. And their best friend calls and says, that's you. And they realize my best friend knows that's me and still loves me.

And so everything's okay. And then they forget that they were ever naked. And then they forget they were ever upset. I don't write books about people I don't feel some sympathy for. This is not a hostile act. Yeah, yeah. I know exactly what you're saying.

People don't know how other people see them, and they think they're managing the situation, and they aren't. I know that you are seeing me right now in some way slightly different than I would see myself if I was sitting there describing myself, and it would make me uncomfortable to know what you were saying. Of course. But it's okay.

As we say in AA, it's none of your business. What he thinks of me? It's actually none of your business. Okay, would you agree that, I guess it's five seasons, not four, but this season of your podcast Against the Rules. So we took on sports gambling as a way to talk about the society really, but it's a really interesting situation and it's an awkward thing to take on because everybody who might take it on

is being paid by the sports gambling companies. There's not a lot of honest stuff about it. And I've had friends who gamble on sports or who are friends with the people who own DraftKings and FanDuel or whatever, whose opinion about the industry has changed because of the podcast. So that I've noticed.

And I was just at this past weekend, the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference. It's like the Moneyball Conference. And it's 3,000 nerds in a room and a lot of GMs of sports teams. And it's been overrun already by DraftKings and FanDuel. And so there are all these people from DraftKings and FanDuel.

And it felt like I was the stink bomb in the room. They didn't have any panels on the subject, but it's clear that this is an uncomfortable. It's kind of like exposing CTE. Or smoking and cancer. People get pissed off, because there's a lot of money at stake already. Oh yeah.

Those two companies are 30, $40 billion companies. It is sinister what we're doing to young men right now. It's not just with sports gambling. We're creating young male anger at a fantastic rate. If you were to set out to create as much young male anger as you could, we're doing a great job. Let's take away manual labor jobs.

Let's take away the trades. Let's stop sending them to college. Let's get that suicide rate up. Let's tell them they're evil from the minute they walk in the classroom when they're in first grade. And then let's create an industry that preys on young male overconfidence. In testosterone, in rites of passage,

and acts of bravery. Yes, and that has, with unbelievable precision, the ability to identify people who don't know what they're doing and get them to do as much of it as possible. Yes. At the same time, they can, with great precision, identify the very, very, very few people

who actually know what they're doing when they're betting on sports and kick them out of the casino. Yes! It's diabolical. Those algorithms, they can go, oh, this guy's too good of a gambler. He actually is making edge bets,

the bets that have positive expected value. He knows something about golfers that we don't know. We can't take the bet. And he's gone. So they just say you can't do this? Yeah. We got a pro gambler who knew what he was doing to give us his bets to place,

and we participated a little bit so it was legal, and we got booted out everywhere in a matter of four or five bets. Even where we'd lost money, because they could identify that the bet, even though the bet lost, it was a smart bet. That's like a bar that's only letting alcoholics in. You gotta prove you're an alcoholic first.

Literally. And then anyone who can manage their drinking, you get the fuck out of here. That's exactly right. If you're just gonna drink water, we don't want you get the fuck out of here. That's exactly right. If you're just gonna drink water, we don't want you. Yeah, we want fucking addicts in the air. How can this be legal?

Well, let's go through it. Can we start? I was really fascinated with Dan Juan. He's a great character. So Dan Juan started studying fans, which no one had really ever studied. And I think the reigning opinion of people who attended sporting events was a certain type of person.

And through his studies, he found out, well, you know, you'd be surprised to find out that fans, they donate more money, they're more politically active, they have higher GPAs. They're not the group you think they are. No, they're socially engaged, but they are not rational. Right. So now we get into that kind of Danny Kahneman take on these guys, which is what happens to someone's thinking when they're a fan? I mean, it's motivated reasoning. You will systematically think your team

is going to do better than you should think or your favorite players. You got one half your brain in a really irrational space already because you are a fan. Well, I like when he puts it so simply, like just the original proposition is, come spend two hours with us. There's a 50% chance that you're gonna be very upset

at the end of this and it costs a lot of money. You see the bias right there. Any rational person would be like, no, those are terrible odds if I'm gonna spend a bunch of money. When you introduce gambling into this mind, it's already a mind that thinks it knows things it doesn't know.

It gets into the superstitions. And I myself just did this. I went to a Detroit Lions game, the one they lost in the playoffs, and I hadn't been to a game all year, and I went, and it was like a big deal. They lost, and I'm like, it's because I hugged the coach. He didn't want to hug me.

He's like, why did I have to hug that fucking guy? Because he's on TV? I had this whole story, I'm like, all Detroit hates my guts. I'm kind of buying it. It's funny what gets studied by academics and what doesn't, and as he points out, the fan was just sitting there waiting to be studied.

It's such an important character in American life, but pinheads like me generally don't like sports. People were just turning a blind eye to it because they thought it was not worthy of attention. And for our podcast, it's worthy of attention just to establish the brain space in which this gambling industry is gonna enter. Because they are targeting fans.

The targeting fans. That's why it's very important to understand right out of the gates that a fan is doing some irrational thinking. So most people who bet are a fan of the thing. That's surprising to me already. I would assume most people who get into sports betting aren't fans, so they could be sort of objective. There are some who do that. And they're kicked off.

Overwhelmingly they are fans. Wow. Yes. So what happened in this country is that back in 1992, Senator Bill Bradley, former New York Nick, had passed a federal law that forbid states from legalizing sports gambling. They didn't have it already. And that grandfathered in Nevada, for example.

Maybe Atlantic City. No, they didn't. Oh, they didn't have a sports book there. Then what happens is because Atlantic City's not grand, for they don't have it, New Jersey gets upset, they can't do it. And Chris Christie, it, New Jersey gets upset they can't do it. And Chris Christie, governor of New Jersey, launches what seems to be a quixotic and feudal

lawsuit to try to overturn Bradley's law. It succeeds in 2018. In 2018, the Supreme Court says this law is unconstitutional. It's up to the states. Any state that wants to legalize sports betting can. Since then, 38 states have legalized it. Which created all kinds of weird natural experiments like Alabama doesn't, Mississippi does,

and suicide rates go up in Mississippi, and savings rates go down in Mississippi. You can see the effects of all that stuff. My own personal story, I got to have dinner one time with Ted Olson. So did I. And I find him to be one of the most impressive people I've ever had a dinner with.

And what's so interesting to me about Ted Olson is he was the lawyer that argued in front of Supreme Court that Citizens United is what it was called. So he has this one thing on his record that us on the left would fucking hate, which he made corporations humans. And at the restaurant, the bus boy comes over, starts crying and says, thank you so much,

I got to marry the love of my life because of you. And then he's on the other side and gets rid of DOMA. You're like, fucking here's complicated life for you. And so brilliant. And he's the lawyer Chris Christie hires to argue the Supreme Court case. Oh wow. Right?

I mean, this is the reality of life. Well, he's just a good lawyer. But he cared deeply about DOMA. He felt like that was a huge violation. But did he care about DOMA. He felt like that was a huge violation. But did he care about DOMA, or did he care about winning a hard case? No, he truly said this is an injustice, and believed that, and it was a liberty issue,

and he believes in liberty. And sometimes liberty falls on your side, and liberty falls on the other side. Yeah, that's true. You make a very good point in asking that question, because I had dinner with him too, and we interviewed him. I really, really liked him.

He's damn likable. He's from the South. He died. He died? He died three months ago. Oh, I didn't know that. And he died right after I had dinner with him, like two weeks after I had dinner with him.

But I asked him, I was just curious, you're the most famous constitutional... Most successful. ... argued the most cases before the Supreme Court. What's the strategy here? You're not just taking anything that comes in the door. And he would say that one is is I don't want to argue something I don't myself believe but also if I think this is a non-starter, it's a waste of time So he's also picking cases. He's looking at the Supreme Court. He has the Supreme Court wired

He knows what they think about things He's picking the things that he thinks are gonna succeed and he had an odd premonition that sports gambling would work One element of this that I heard in the podcast which is fascinating is someone comparing some Definition is is this a game of luck or a game of skill because tournaments are not illegal the reason we have two huge Corporations in the middle of this business that are not Las Vegas casinos draft kings and fan duel Proceeding the legalization of sports gambling there was a fight to legalize preceding the legalization of sports gambling, there was a fight to legalize Fantasy Sports,

and they were two Fantasy Sports companies. And Fantasy Sports looks a lot like gambling. You're entering competitions, and you buy in and you win money, and they went state to state, these two companies, with very shrewd lobbyists, and persuaded a lot of states that this was not gambling because it was a game of skill.

But poker's a game of skill, and it's a game of skill and it's gambling. Yes, so it's blackjack. It's a slippery slope and where they had success was especially where there weren't Native American tribes to oppose them. We'll get to California, but that has a lot to do with California, right? California and Florida are both places where the tribes were very powerful and they had the right to have gambling on the reservation. They didn't want anybody doing anything like gambling off the reservation.

That's right. And anyone who lives in California, every time these props come up, you see these are very heavily funded. Because you have casinos on one side and you have the tribes on the other. You see more of those commercials than anything else. That's right. Okay, so the Supreme Court says states can't. And the states are starved of revenue

and they're looking for new sources of revenue. They want to believe. And FanDuel and DraftKings lead the charge and legalize sports, gambling in lots of places with state regulation. But if you interview the state regulators, they basically say they're running circles around us. The state regulator in Ohio was very funny.

We interviewed him. He said, my teenage son is getting pizza boxes with free sports bets attached to it from these companies and I'm the regulator. Yeah. And now I gotta go, okay, no more on pizza boxes. Oh my. You're whack-a-mole-ing. With your Uberber ride you get a free sports bed. And so they're enticing young people Yeah, but it's not a lot on the salads

California where sports betting has not been legalized Nevertheless, the vast majority of the boys in my son's high school class are betting on sports. So they are both underage and in a state where it's illegal. He was like, yeah, I can do this, here's the app. You find ways to get around the restrictions and you just do it. So we actually did an episode where I gave him $5,000 and put a GoPro on his head basically, or a wire on him,

and said, let's go see how smart you are, and we're gonna learn why you shouldn't be doing this. I inoculated him, just like handing him a box of cigarettes and saying, you gotta smoke the whole box. Or a fifth of whiskey, you don't get to get up until you finish it. And it was really interesting to see him figure out what was going on.

For me, it's obvious, right? I was on Wall Street, I know a lot of people in that world. I know that if Draft Kings or FanDuel are trying to get me to do something, I shouldn't do it. Yes, you enter life as I do, which is you're in Las Vegas, and you see they've built a glass pyramid in the desert,

and you must go, I guess, the people gambling don't win, right? You just acknowledge the reality of, there's systems at play that are much more complicated than I could ever be as an individual, and I have to acknowledge that enormous asymmetric. It's true in all markets. If you're gonna teach a trader, someone who's going to trade anything, one thing,

you teach them the idea of adverse selection. That if someone is finding you to trade with you, it's quite likely that person knows something you don't know. Yes. Or to expand on this, if there's a market price for something, there's all this information in that market price. And a bet, like a money line or a point spread is a market price on a sporting event Unless you know

Something that the market doesn't know and you better know why you know something the market doesn't know because the market knows a lot You are disadvantaged that the market knows stuff. You don't know So the person on the other side of the bet likely knows something you don't know. That's your baseline So there are I know them professional sports gamblers who know that golfer A is better on this kind of course than the market knows and is gonna over perform at this tournament because this kind of course suits him. Or fraternity brother knows that his fraternity brother who's on the basketball team has just agreed to miss the first free throw in the basketball game this weekend.

There is inside information that is useful. If you have that, go for it. I mean, this is not advice. If you're endorsing it. No, not endorsing it. If you have to gamble. If you have to gamble, try to know something. Yeah, you should know something.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. armchair expert, if you dare. Once this happens and the Supreme Court allows this, you go to Vegas and you talk to some veteran bookmakers. What has the impact of this been on Vegas? And what are the people in Vegas saying? Vegas was not ready for the change. FanDuel and DraftKings has this huge advantage over the Las Vegas casinos who have sports books.

Their business model was more like a tech company, the FanDuel and DraftKings, more like a social media company. They knew everything about the behavior of their fantasy players. They knew what their weaknesses were, what vices they could be encouraged to indulge in, who would make what kind of bet, and the fantasy sports companies knew everything. That was their business model, knowing about their customers. That's a new idea for Las Vegas. I mean they know the high rollers, they know it in a very general way, but they don't know how to take someone who is engaged in two-legged

parlays and turn them into someone who will make even worse three-legged parlay bets. It is nefarious. Yeah. It's just straight nefarious. It's like payday loan type shit. Imagine Prohibition ends in the 1930s and there's a liquor company that actually

has incredibly detailed information on how to get addicts to drink. They have your whole history pre-Prohibition. Yeah, that's right. They have every drink you ever had. This guy can't say no to rye. That's right and they show up on your doorstep. And give it to you for free. And start to get you going again. Yeah. Jesus. Get you off that wagon. That liquor company has this huge advantage and that's the advantage that Van Dool and Draft Kings

have. What about the mules and the runners? Once I found my character the professional sports gambler Rufus Peabody is his name. He's among the smartest sports gamblers on the planet. He's been making a very good living out of it for 15 years. What is a very good living? Millions of dollars a year. Millions of dollars. Oh, I thought you said billions.

And he works his ass off. He really does have edges in the marketplace and it's not easy. But part of his problem is that in the old world, the Vegas casinos would take his bets. In the new world, fan duel and draft kings won't. They figure out he knows what he's doing and they don't want the bets. So to get his bets down, he has to hire networks of people like his mother.

They're professional people. Well, he's gotta trust them. He has to trust them and they have to be smart at disguising the bets so that if you're actually a professional mule, you're actually placing these bets for Rufus, you do things like make stupid bets occasionally so that they don't detect.

So you don't look so pro. So you gotta trick the algorithm. This is wild. You live in New York, you bet on the Knicks. You do that for a little bit so that they classify you as dumb better and then you come in a lot of smart bets. So our producer in the podcast, Lydia Jean Cot, who Who one doesn't know the difference between a basketball and football and two is such a nervous Nellie around money and risk would never go

Into a casino. That's too scary kind of thing Rufus gave Lydia Jean a hundred hundred fifty thousand I can't remember lots of dollars to place bets with and she was running Offered credit cards because they thought someone had stolen them because there was all this money coming through the bank account. She has been banned from I think every sports book in the country and has been told you're never welcome here again. The funny moment was there was one sports book, MGM, so one of the Vegas sports books, took her first bets, the smart bets. The bets actually lost, so she lost a bunch of money right away on golf,

like tens of thousands of dollars. They thought, oh, dumb high roller. They misidentified her. They weren't good at figuring out those bets were smart. They wanted to make her VIP. They got in touch with her and they gave her free tickets to Charlie XCX. And she calls and she says,

this has been the most miserable experience of my life. I don't wanna be doing this. When can I stop? Cornice all levels are through the roof. Now I can go see Charlie and Madison Square Garden. And she was so excited, but she made the mistake of continuing to place bets. And the day of the concert, they called and said, we're taking away the tickets. They took away the tickets?

Those bastards. Oh my God. Stunning bastards. Broke her heart. I should have bought her tickets. Well, I was just going to say, you're wealthy. I should have bought her tickets. Well, I was just going to say you should have bought her tickets. So funny, I should have bought her tickets, but I was thinking, this is such a great end to the story, I'm just going to leave it at that.

That's crazy, they can do that? I want to hear her tears. You have your priorities straight. How does the VIP status work on these online things and how is that turbocharging the addiction? If you get to be a VIP, you have a problem. I was talking to a bunch of people who manage large sums of money for like university endowments and pension funds

and all the rest. People who are giving money to Wall Street people to invest for them. And they asked me, if you were interviewing a Wall Street investor to decide whether to trust them with your money, what question would you ask? And I said, I'd ask, have you ever been a VIP at a sports book?

Because if you're a VIP at a sports book, you're exactly the kind of person who should not be investing money. They have identified you are bad with money, you are gonna be a long-term cash cow for them, make a lot of stupid bets, and yeah, we'll all frame it as, I can afford to lose this, it's just fun for me.

It's recreational for me to lose a million bucks. In this pool of VIPs are lots of people who can't afford to lose the money. And they don't make the distinction. One of our sports gamblers wanted to see how badly the big sports books would behave. He started to behave like an addict and would say things like,

I just need another line of credit that my wife doesn't see. Let me in in the game. And they would say things like, you can't put this in writing. Just tell me over the phone and we'll get you the line of credit. I would say that if you manage to get yourself

designated a VIP, it's an embarrassment. It's not a compliment. Ooh. Oh boy. I wanna thank California publicly, and I wanna acknowledge my own stupidity as a fan. So I see this Jake Paul fight with Mike Tyson. I grew up watching Mike Tyson knock guys out.

I know the one thing that doesn't decline as you get older as a boxer is your knockout punch. We watched George Foreman drop Michael Moore, very late age. I'm like, this kid's never fought. So I see that Mike Tyson knocking them out plays three to one. I'm like, I have to make this bet. I sign on to one of these sites. I can't even remember which go to places bet you can't.

And I'm like, I can't it's because I'm in California, but I didn't even know that. Oh, so I'm pissed. Then I'm like, I can't? It's because I'm in California. But I didn't even know that. Oh. So I'm pissed. Then I go away to Hawaii that weekend. I can't make a bet in Hawaii. I don't know what to do. You have a real problem with gambling in Hawaii. It's one of the couple states that have moral objections.

Good for them. So I go down there and I've got to take some side bets with human beings. I end up getting $300 on the table. And of course he loses and he doesn't knock out Jake Paul. I was like, thank God, California didn't take my bet. I was like, I think I was willing to go like 10 grand on it. And he goes, I'm a fan of Mike Tyson.

I don't even think about the fact that, okay, Jake Paul's the one with the career that's building. He knows something I don't know about this fight. I just get rid of all my rational thinking. And now I just wanna thank California for not taking my bet. Do you think the fight was rigged? What I think is that there are a couple of slow motion exchanges that are impossible for

me to believe because Tyson does his Bob. He's done this a thousand times. This is muscle memory. Soon as he ducks and misses that you're getting the right uppercut and you see him start to throw it and then he doesn't throw it. Oh. Now I'm not gonna say publicly, I don't want to get sued, but I'm saying that doesn't make any fucking sense to me. This is a guy that's thrown that exact move hundreds of times with crazy outcome and he just stops and he's in the middle of the movement and he stops and I'm like, that doesn't look right.

Do you think if you said what you were maybe about to say that you would get sued? It's just your opinion. I don't think you could get sued for that. I wonder if I say Jake Paul fixed that fight. In your opinion. Yeah, what's the difference? When you say your opinion, it's still slander, isn't it? No.

I have no information. Let's try it. Let's give it a whirl. I don't know if that's the way to get your legal advice. I think if you say allegedly, would you say allegedly after everything? All I'm saying is I witnessed some of the fight that does not make sense to me. Do you have an opinion on it? I don't.

Do you watch it? No. I'm not a huge boxing guy. Okay, great. I don't like seeing people get hit. I remember when I was a kid, I went to a camp where you were forced to box, and I remember the first fight I got in and I wailed on some kid. I hated it.

Like I just stopped. I don't want to beat him up. And then the second fight, someone got in and wailed on me. I thought, I like this even less. Exactly. So where is the fun? You're like, there's a lose-lose. Where is the fun here?

Okay, so how is California, I guess we're six, seven years into this experiment, you already mentioned Alabama and Mississippi, but is California experiencing less of some of the fallout from this as other places? I don't know. The tribes have succeeded in preventing gambling from being legalized. But as I say, my son, 17 years old,

and he's on the apps and he's gambling. Well, just paint me a little bit of a picture of how bad it is, and then I wanna go into what you taught your son and what we can maybe advise other people that are listening to, adhere to. Young men who take to sports gambling become addicts at a rate of about 8%. Charlie Baker, former governor of Massachusetts,

is the new head of the NCAA. When he became head of the NCAA, he went and did a kind of listening tour of colleges because he wanted to see what was going on in sports on campuses, and he thought he was gonna find one thing and he found another. He found an epidemic of athletes being harassed by their fellow students gamblers.

And the harassment was like death threats. You miss this free throw or you're dead. Or just tell me now something that I know that I can bet on. It was so bad that he did a survey and found that 60% of the boys on college campuses were sports gambling. I think that is probably missing.

What is an even bigger story, which is I don't think there's a high school in America where there isn't basically a sports gambling ring. It's part of being a boy. It's just becoming what you do. Of course, for most people, it's not gonna have much effect and it'll be fine. 92%. Yeah.

But it's a machine for creating lots and lots of addicts. And it's a particularly cruel addiction. We interviewed someone with a gambling addiction. Roy Toy. Yeah, the famous chef. And what was illuminating to me as an addict was, I've never done an eight ball of Coke, felt like shit, and thought, oh, I could do another eight ball of Coke

and that would get me out of this. It has the most unique trap, this addiction, which is like there's the illusion of getting even and then exiting. So everyone has a fairy tale. Just wanna fucking get even and then I'll stop. There's no getting even in coke, thank God, because maybe I'd still be trapped there.

It leads you to oblivion. It leads you to the end. It leads you to ruin. And I kind of thought one way that reform is going to happen, it's gonna be some high profile person's child. Yeah, we're gonna wait till then. Because that's happened in England. I don't want to tell you who it is,

but I do know a person who's very prominent there, whose son has just not committed suicide, but close, who's bankrupted himself, and the dad realizing this is outrageous, and is going to work politically to constrain the gambling industry. In the UK and Australia, there are things to learn from them.

They're way ahead of us and they're much less prone to making stupid bets. It's interesting. We are uniquely stupid. We're not inoculated. It's like smallpox just hit us. Yes. And I might be wrong about this.

Maybe this is all just gonna go away and this new vice will be assimilated into the culture and we'll all be fine But I do think it's more likely that we're gonna be living with an epidemic. It's silent You don't see it with drug addicts. You see them this just someone on his phone doing stuff You've got a casino in your pocket So I think we're gonna wake up and go what have we done here to a half generation of young men The question is like what do you do then? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have a child, what do you do?

It's a question I think a lot of parents ask themselves about a lot of things. How do I protect my child from this thing? He's out there in a predatory environment. It's essentially a predatory business. As was the mortgage thing. As was the mortgage thing, but my child was not gonna buy credit to false swaps.

No, but just, I remember my initial reaction to the 08 meltdown was like, all these people that couldn't afford these houses went and bought these Fucking houses because they believed it was gonna go up 20% a year and I blamed them and then I learned how they were approached Refinance how they were encouraged by a house outside of the thing. I know this was a calculated coordinated Effort to get all these people they abused vulnerable people as they always do. That's right I actually do think that if you have a boy that you need to have not just the sex talk,

you have to have the gambling talk. So yeah, what did you do with your son? Walker, who is a senior in high school. And a Texas Ranger. Famously a Texas Ranger. Or an Oakland A. But I said first, you're this thing sports gaming. He goes, yeah, we're all doing it.

He was not yet, but all of his friends were. He was circling. I went and taught his English class and there were like 30 kids there and he asked during the class, can you raise your hand if you're gambling on sports? All but one of the boys. None of the girls.

So, but he said, yeah, I'm tempted. I think I know some things here, especially with hoops. He's a hoops player. He knows about the Golden State Warriors. So I said, here, I'm gonna give you $5,000 and you're gonna wear a wire and we're gonna just follow you. I'm gonna stay out of it.

I'm not gonna parent you. The producers may a little bit, but you're gonna just explain why you're doing what you're doing and you can keep the winnings. What I thought was gonna happen is he was gonna vaporize the $5,000 and it was gonna be humiliating

and the humiliation would be the antidote. He would learn how little he knew and that the things he thought he knew he didn't know, and how complicated this market was, and how this market was trying to get him to do stuff he shouldn't do. That's not what happened. Oh no.

Oh no. He drank the Vita whiskey and he was like, that's great, let's do this again tomorrow. He made a million dollars. He didn't throw up, he didn't get hungover. I don't wanna ruin the episode for the listener. The episode, it turned out so beautifully, what actually did happen, he got the lesson the episode for the listener. The episode, it turned out so beautifully, what actually did happen,

he got the lesson and he got the money. And how that happened, I would rather people just listen to the episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. I am gonna listen. Well, I'm really delighted you took this on. Yeah.

But now you do have a book coming out. I do. Who is government? The Untold Story of Public Service. What is this about? I got really interested in the federal government during Trump won. I thought it was just comic material. Trump had fired his whole transition team the day after the election, 500 and something people.

There were a thousand people inside the Obama administration who had spent six months preparing sort of a course on how the federal government works for whoever won. And Trump said the course is irrelevant. He literally said, I can learn everything I need to know in two hours. That's quite a feat. Very smart man. Beautiful mind. He's a, I can learn everything I need to know in two hours. That's quite a feat. Very smart man. Beautiful mind. He's a beautiful mind. But I thought this is comic material.

I'll go get the briefings. Starting with how the nuclear weapons are run. The people who were gonna give that briefing, they couldn't give me all the classified stuff, but they were kind of grateful. It's like, we work so hard. We wanted someone to read this. Could someone just hear this?

But the reception was called the fifth risk. To that book was so positive that I thought I might wanna want to read this. Could someone just hear this? But the reception, it was called The Fifth Risk, to that book was so positive that I thought, I might want to do more of this if it proves useful. Another thing that happened was, at the very end of the book, I did one deep dive into the life of a single civil servant and the story was literature. The material was so good,

I thought I should have done more of that. So, a year and a bit ago, I was on a hiking trail with the then opinion editor of the Washington Post David Shipley And I said, you know what we should do. I can't do it's too complicated an institution. The government is huge It's massive. They're 2.3 million employees. I said, let me go hire six writers I love people who just I know make everything fun on the page I along with the six of them will parachute into the government Everybody can find their story and you can run it as a series running into the election.

Just to remind everybody what these people do. And the series was called Who is Government? The pieces were so good and things you just wouldn't expect. I give you one that's not mine. Casey Sepp, New Yorker writer, found a character in the Veterans Administration named Ron Walters. No one's ever heard of him. No one would have ever heard of him. Who took over the National Cemeteries 20 years ago. And the national

cemeteries is where we bury our veterans. And when he took it over, they had kind of mediocre customer satisfaction. The families of the people who were burying their dead had mixed feelings about how the operation was run. There's now at the University of Michigan that measures consumer satisfaction across our society, like it's not just private companies, but also government agencies. And so you can find out how the Department of Agriculture is doing, but you can also find out

how Amazon and FedEx is doing. Ron Walters turned this enterprise into the enterprise with the highest customer satisfaction in the entire country. And you think about, why do we have a country? What are the things the country does? Mostly, we're better off in a country because it helps keep us safe,

but it preserves certain values. And if we don't honor our war dead, it's ugly. And that this man has come in and honored the war dead. Quite moving. And not ask for a dollar, more than like his civil service pay, and not ask for anybody to write an article about him he was very wary it's story after story like this and the idea of some know-nothing rolling in with a chainsaw and saying you're all waste fraud and abuse when some of these

people are the best among us and it take a 20 years of their life to make their whole thing it's obscene so it turns out that the book is very timely. I wrote the last piece of it after the election, but all of it mostly was written last June. And it's Dave Eggers and Kamau Bell and John Lanchester and Casey Sepp and Sarah Vowell. You've seen the Incredibles? She was the voice of violet in the Incredibles. She's a wonderful historian too. And Geraldine Brooks, the Australian novelist. Really gifted writers. Each piece is so different from the next. The Incredibles. She's a wonderful historian too. Geraldine Brooks, the Australian novelist. Really gifted writers, each piece is so different from the next.

So it'll be fun. It's a way to have a conversation about this. Yeah. Okay, great. So listen to Against the Rules, but then also get Who is Government? The Untold Story of Public Service. Michael Lewis, you're very, very charming and interesting.

I love being with you guys. I've really enjoyed having you. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, thanks for the interview. How are you doing my friend? I really enjoyed it. Hi there, this is Hermiam Permian. If you like that, you're going to love the fact check with Ms. Monica. I am launching a competing religion to Quakerism. Oh, to Quakerism. And I'm using spices too.

Dax, why don't you at least do herbs? I'm gonna use spices too to confuse people. Okay, and what are your spices? Shining, prancing, intriguing. That's bad. Captivating, energizing, sprinkling, could also be sparkling. Okay, these are all.

This is like an extroverts religion. Yeah, this is about, this is so outward. This is great. And it's so performative. Shining, prancing, intriguing, captivating, this is a way of life. Intriguing is not good. Yeah, well if you're using it specifically in the SLA way.

Yeah, that's what it is. No, things that are intriguing aren't inherently, it's just been used in that. Things that are intriguing, but you're saying these as verbs. But you can be intriguing in many ways other than romantic or sessual. Okay.

Mine's also easier to memorize, right? Cause you probably already have mine memorized and you probably don't off the top of your dome have the original spices memorized. I think I do. because you probably already have mine memorized and you probably don't off the top of your dome have the original spices memorized. I think I do. Stewardship, service. Oh, you're going, okay, you're just kind of

making a mess of it now, okay. What, that's true. But you gotta go S-P-I-C-E-E-S. Well, no, I don't. Okay. God. You and your rules. Service, stewardship. Service, stewardship, community, peace. Oh, good job.

What's E and I? Integrity, integrity was I. It was. Yes. How many have I done? You need one more. You need an E. Equity, equality.

I did it. Good job. Now yours, shining, prancing, spit takes. No, no, that was Pete. Okay, shining, prancing, intriguing, celebration. Captivating. Captivating. Egg on your face.

Energizing. Energizing and sparkles. Sprinkling. Oh, sprinkling. Okay, so mine's not easier to remember. Okay. Okay, well that's cool. Your cult, you're gonna have that.

Okay, do you wanna talk about, because you were waiting patiently for me to listen to the Malcolm Gladwell episode called Rogan Intervention? Joe Rogan Intervention. Joe Rogan Intervention. It's on, it's revisionist history. And the new season's great so far. There's also a couple really good episodes

about George Floyd. Oh, and RFK or whatever. Yeah, there's an episode before the Joe Rogan Intervention about, called the RFK Junior Problem. Oh. That leads sort of into the Joe Rogan intervention. And, God, that Malcolm Gladwell. What a gift he has.

He's so good. What an incredible episode. I thought, yes, okay, so the episode is, starts off kind of calling out Joe Rogan a little bit about his interview with RFK Jr. And not really, and like the difference between an interview and a conversation, it really just deep dives into what is a good interview.

Versus a conversation between friends, yeah. Interviewing is a real skill. It is different from conversation. And it is like, yeah, they play a clip where Malcolm is being interviewed by Michael Gervais and Malcolm starts crying talking about his dad. Yeah. But what led there was so nothing.

Like it was very simple. It was, and I was like, yeah, it's complicated and it's simple getting like real emotion out of someone. So there's this string of back and forth where RFK. RFK Jr. He claims that the Spanish flu, he's got three whammies in a row, Spanish flu that people didn't die from the virus,

that in fact they died from this bacterial infection. And that- Fauci signs off on it. That Fauci agrees with him, this conclusion. And then that what the Spanish flu really was, was a backfiring of a vaccine. And so, yeah, Joe's like, he is skeptical at first. He's like, you know, according to what

and what's the documentation? And he finds the article from Fauci. Then there's some like, you know, at least Malcolm's conclusion is that neither of them really understood the difference between a primary and a secondary cause of death. So, you know, what's he to do if he doesn't know that? Right. Right.

Like an average person could misread that conclusion. And then when he gets into the vaccine thing, now he's just, you know, now you're in this weird position where this guy's saying there are articles, but you don't have them. And I just wonder, I was trying to just, I was trying to delineate how ours is different. I guess really the only difference is

the people we have on are truly experts in the field they're talking about. But likewise, we can only push back so much because it's not our field. Well, right, but I guess if we're gonna have someone controversial on, which we don't do that often actually, but if we do, like before we had Andrew on, there was a conversation we had that was like,

if we're gonna have him on, we're going to have to have all the conversations and push back. So to me, it's that. It's like, you can't have someone like that on who's extremely controversial and says all kinds of stuff and not be prepared to really push back. Yeah.

The statement that that was a vaccine that killed 100 million people. Right. Yeah, of course I'm in bed, like that's one of the few issues I'm pretty vocal about, you know, I'm very pro-vaccine. Although I have a little bit I've had, I understood people who didn't want the COVID vaccine more than

maybe someone who's so pro-vaccine that I am was. I understand it's your body and you ultimately get to decide what you put in your body. That piece of it I totally get. But I want wanna hear your conclusions because I, and maybe this is a bad habit of mine. I keep trying to zoom out and figure out what's really going on.

You know, like that's my great curiosity. You've got like two intelligent people. Who? Joe and RFK. They're not dum-dums, either of them. They're both intelligent people. And then you wonder, why is it does that story appeal to them? That there's like, there's been a conspiracy,

it's vaccines, that's the Spanish flu is really vaccines. Why are two intelligent people drawn to that conclusion? Well, I don't know if Joe is, I don't know if that's his conclusion. Yeah, I don't know either. He seems skeptical in his defense while he was hearing it. Yeah, I don't know what he thinks but RFK jr. But must believe it. I mean I he's sincere about it. Yeah, so So then I just I try to figure out what's going on under it and even

Broader why is it so appealing to people? Like a vast, you know, like a very large amount of people are drawn to that. And my conclusion is, I think if you feel very left out and excluded, that like there's this group of people in the country that are living this great life and you feel excluded by that. It's almost like you feel like they have some secret shit.

Like they have some secret. Why are they succeeding at this level and enjoying all of this prosperity and opportunity and I'm not, they're not more valuable than me, they're not smarter than me, there must be some kind of conspiracy just in general. You know what I'm saying? Like there must be something dirty going on

that all these people have all this shit and then all these other people don't. But it's not those aren't the, it's not poor people who are anti-vaccine. In fact, it's mostly very, very privileged people who are anti-vaccine. Well, that is what's weird. But well, there's two, I think there's two really big buckets. There's the, um, whole foods, super liberal, probably elite group.

And then there was the fuck no, that's got trackers in it. That's, you know, Biden trying to control me. That's like the anti Bill Gates faction. So I think there is two really big factions. Yeah, but I tend to think the people who, I mean, it just in my experience, the people who are the most vocal in leading the charge are not poor people.

When you have so much privilege and access to the Brazil nut that might have, that's $14 per nut that might have this special benefit, they wanna go that route, and then that's natural and all of these things. But I think most people believe doctors, they like believe the system, right? That doctors pretty much know what they're doing,

that when the baby is born, it needs these things and they're just gonna go do these things. And they don't have to question every single thing that comes in, also because they don't have time or energy to question it. They're living their lives. Well, yeah, I think the last time I looked, like 83% of the country had gotten at least the first round of the vaccine for COVID.

So despite whatever you were hearing in the pushback, the vast, vast majority of the people did. So yeah, I agree, most people just do. Most people are vaccinated, thank God, most, you know. But I'm, I get just curious why that thing that sounds pretty far-fetched to me doesn't sound far-fetched to an intelligent person. And I guess my conclusion is,

if you already think the system's rigged, like if you're already suspicious that there's some kind of weird unfairness happening, I have to imagine you're more open to that. Yeah. If your kind of baseline assumption is like something crooked's going on. I know, but I don't think that's the majority of those people. I know, but I don't think that's the majority of those people.

I really don't. I mean, definitely not RFK, he's a Kennedy. But he's the black sheep Kennedy. Like that's how I set him in that category. It's like the other Kennedys had a much different trajectory than him. Trajectory, but not, he was privileged. Oh, fully.

And like, marriage Cheryl Hine. But even like a privileged person could feel like the least privileged among the, I don't know. Yeah, but that to me is like, so kind of part of, I guess, sort of this bigger thing, right, like, you're so privileged and insular that you think you have it bad.

Yeah. Like, look, and then that then it's also, look, if he's just a random person on earth, I don't care, right? But he's in charge. Well now, yeah. Not at the time of that conversation. I think when he had RFK Jr. on, I think was during the election.

I don't know. Do we know? Rob, can you check? June, 2024. June, 2024. He was running for president at that time. Right, right. Rob, can you check? June 2024. June 2024. He was running for president at that time. Right, right.

Yes, exactly, he was a nominee. Yeah, so he's saying like, this is my platform. Yeah, yeah. And then there's a bigger, then there's a really fun, and I wonder where we both land on it. There's the bigger issue of like, this spectrum between journalists and comedians with podcasts.

And then their obligations as such, right? Yeah. Like a journalist has a whole code of ethics and vetting sources and all this kind of stuff. And there's tons of conspiracy theory podcasts, you know, there's nuts. No one gives a shit. What people are really worried about is that he has a huge audience. Yes, of course.

Yeah. So it's just interesting. It's like, that's a very relevant variable and how upset someone is that there's just a comedian talking about conspiracy theories. But he's not a, his podcast isn't a comedy podcast. He's a comedian. No, yeah. I'm just saying he's a comedian. He's not a journalist. He's not a politician or a doctor. But his show is a show where ideas are explored. It's not a laugh riot.

I mean, I'm sure there are funny episodes or whatever, but it is there to explore ideas. Maybe he thinks he is being responsible with it. Well, I assume he does, because I think he's a principled guy with integrity, and he just happens to those. So I believe the experts we have on, and he believes the experts he has on.

Well, I don't know though. And then, you don't know. We wouldn't have him on to come talk about anti-germ theory. Yeah, because I don't believe in him. Exactly. But I don't think, I don't know that Joe Rogan does. I think he is like, come talk about your thing. Let's talk about it.

But then he himself isn't equipped to really have that conversation with this person who's powerful. You know, in the episode before when they're talking about RFK, you know, he doesn't believe in Louis Pasteur's germ theory. He doesn't believe that. He believes in the opposite thing. And so does Woody Harrelson. Like there, and so yes, it's not, to me, it's like-

See, I think it'd be easy and convenient if you could write the people off as dumb, but I don't think you can do that. So then the question is how do smart people have the courage to go against 99.9% of biologists who think a certain way. I don't think it's courage. I think it is a long time of not having your feet

on the ground, that you're able to explore all these different options for life and the world and the way it works and who's in charge and who's not in charge. I do think it's like checking yourself on how quote normal your life is in comparison. I think most of these peoples aren't. Yeah, I just think there's a baseline distrust of systems.

The government, healthcare, doctors, universities, like all of these institutions. It didn't used to be. It's becoming more and more. Yeah, it's hard to know chicken or the egg where there are that many people and now there's just an outlet. I don't know.

I don't know. Well, we do know because measles is back now. It wasn't. People are now, these things are coming back that were gone. There's that whole episode about the rotavirus and the vaccine for that, which they've like, you know, RFK and them have said is bad.

And it is like single-handedly saving- To millions of infants from diarrhea, dying of diarrhea. Than any other vaccine. It's so reckless. It is, it's just reckless. But anyways, I remain really curious, like what is, why, as a smart person, how do they look at that? Look at like the tens of millions of kids,

just in India that have been saved from the rotovacs. I wanna like understand how that gets shoved aside in your 13 cases of maybe not even verifiable side effects, takes charge over tens of millions of people. I know. And there's gotta be something interesting there. There also might be a part of a lot of humans that want to be the exception,

you know, it's almost like the opposite side of the coin to like exceptionalism, like I'm different from everyone else. Well, that's what I'm saying. It is a kind of a display of courage. I am not afraid to go against the grain and to march to the beat of my own drum and all these other you know individual tropes that we love

The great episode most importantly no matter how you fall on it I think like my my headline of that episode to you my original feedback was Malcolm's genius for the way he unravels a story is so proprietary and unique and stimulating. Yeah. It's just so... He's such a good storyteller. The way he flips, it's like he flips channels back and forth to different stories and then the way he weaves them ultimately together is so impressive. Great show. Revisionist history. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

Okay, let's see here. We talk art, art with Michael. Let's talk about some art. We're gonna do from Wikipedia. Let's talk about art, baby. The list of most expensive paintings. Okay, according to Wikipedia. The Salvador Mundi is the most expensive,

450 million adjusted 577. But this is the one that he talks about that a lot of people say, a lot of people discredit. Oh really? Yeah. That's a very unimpressive painting to me. It's Da Vinci. I mean, we love Da Vinci, but I'm not impressed. That doesn't say 570 million to me.

1500 though. That's when say 570 million to me. 1500 though. That's when it was painted? Yeah. 1500. The, yeah, attribution is pretty disputed. Then we have interchange. The Mona Lisa, obviously we just need to say it's never been sold.

Yeah, yeah, these are paintings sold. Yeah, that would be billions of dollars. Probably, yeah, I assume. Yes, interchange is a cooning. Ooh, okay, that's more my speed, Monica. Yeah, it's nice, it's nice. It was 300 million, adjusted 398. That was sold by the David Geffen Foundation.

It still blows my mind there's objects that are worth a half a billion dollars. I know. Well, there are cars. I think the most expensive car is about 75 million for a Ferrari GTO. Really? The third is a Cezanne, the card players. That was 250 adjusted 349.

Oh, I like it. It's like two cowboys. I like that one. Yeah, they're about to shoot each other. That's my story. I don't think so, I think they're playing cards. One of them's always cheating. There's always a cheat in these cowboy card games.

Why are they cowboys? Well, the guy's got a cowboy hat on. He's wearing like an Abe Lincoln hat. It's kind of a mix between a stove pop stove pipe and a cowboy hat. Stove top stuffing? Okay, then we have- Stofer stove top stuffing.

Paul Gauguin called- Gauguin. Is it Gauguin? Yeah. Okay, Gauguin. Nafé fa et biopo translates to when will you marry? Okay, I like that one. I like her dress. 210, adjust to 279.

Her feet are a little mangled like mine. Right, she has a lot of time. Have I told you this? That I'm now describing my foot as a comb over? Because the long toe has now moved over to fill the gap of the baby toe. Oh wow. So it looks like Trump's hair now. Yeah. Oh my God. I have a fucking comb over on my feet. Oh wow.

That may come up on Kimmel tonight, but it happened here first. We tend to talk about my feet a lot. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, you're doing Kimmel tonight and I'm going to Beyonce tonight. What a night.

Star-studded night. What a night. Jackson Pollock is next, number 17A. I think that's Jackson Pollock. Incorrect. Um, number 17A, 200 million, adjusted to 65. Oh, 200 mil? Mm-hmm.

Okay, I'm allowed to say Pollock, did you know that? Cause I'm 12.5% Polak. Because my kids are 25% Polak. It's like the Natalie. But no. Then we have a Gustav Klimt, Washer Schlangen II. That's 100. What a name, Washer Schlangen.

Oh wow, this is like. That's a fever dream. Women, naked women, two naked women. Oh I see a breast, I see butt cheeks. But they have long hair. Yeah. This is cool. And flowers in between them, they're like maybe on a,

oh there's like four women in that photo, or in that painting. Where's the other two? You can see if you look at the faces, top, middle, then to the right we've got two broads, and then on the bottom we've got a broad. Wow, yeah. Yeah. This guy was having a hell of an afternoon.

This is fun. Well, I want this one because I like art of women. You do, that's your niche. So I wonder if I can buy it. It was sold for 183.8 million, adjusted to 48. So I just gotta save up. Quarter bill. Mark Rothko is next. 183.8 million, adjusted to 48. So I just gotta save up. Quarter bill. Mark Rothko is next.

Number six, violet, green, and red. Now this is pretty much just squares. Yeah, good for him for being so successful with the squares. I do like it though, it's pleasing. I do too, I do too. Beats the hell out of that Da Vinci. Salador Moonbeam. Dump. Oh my too, I do too. Beats the hell out of that Da Vinci. Salador Moonbeam. Dump.

Oh my God, have some respect. It isn't worth 500 bucks. You're me today. I don't even trust the providence of that. Well, we don't, people don't. Count me in that group. Next is a Rembrandt pendant portraits of Merton Suomon and Uptjen Koepet.

All the people in these Rembrandt photos look like they have syphilis. Like their faces are red and weird. Like look at her nose is red as hell. What do you mean? You're the least observant person I know. I love this. You can't see her red.

I mean, it's not about nuts. I'm staring at it I don't see it as bright red like a clown nose. Oh, I do it's like it's gonna fall off And then the guy on the left he's like he's suspiciously rosy cheek to like pink But that's very like that's very close to real life skin. I think all these people were like they had all kinds of parasites and Terrible back then don't you think no you can wash your face or brush your teeth Yeah, but white people's skin is disgusting. No is pink your skin is pink I don't have blotches of blood on my face No, she's got like a huge sore on her nose.

All these people look like they have scabies or. Oh my, you're like so, is this because you're nervous about Kimmel? You're being so. I'm latching out at these people from the past. Oh my God, you're right. Oh, geez, I'm impressed you admitted that. Yeah, she has a fucking, this woman will be dead within the month. No, no, you're, oh, I'm impressed you admitted that. Yeah, she has a fucking, this woman will be dead

within a month. No, no, you're, oh, okay. She's dying of something. First off, you're overreacting. Is it that she was blowing her nose so much? She does. See, this is why you shouldn't blow your nose. She's not, she does have a red, this area of her nose,

this nostril is red. Is diseased, yeah. She blew her nose, she had a cold. No, she has a real, like a bubonic plague. Black death is on her nose. You know what? Tell me. And this chap on the left, he's like 18, he's gonna die within the month as well.

Oh my, you need to stop. These people are long gone, Monica. You are not being respectful of the dead or the living. No, or the painted. Also, don't fuck sheep. If you're in the audience. What? What? That's how humans got syphilis, fucking sheep.

This sounds like RFK. No, look that up. Are you sure? Yeah. Rob, can you look it up? I can't type that into my browser. Rob, can you look it up? I can't type that into my browser. I think the reason I couldn't see it at first,

we're looking, for people who are listening, we are looking on the big TV screen at these pictures and I'm not wearing my glasses. And I think that makes me a better person. I know. I really do, because now look. We have a history of this. Then I zoomed.

We were watching an interview with somebody one time and their tongue was so big. And you thought I was a bad person for observing that their tongue didn't fit in their mouth. I thought it was a little, you guys were being mean. Listen, I didn't say like the person was a jerk or anything. It was just like, wow, they really have to wrestle their tongue. And you made some jokes.

What were the jokes? I don't remember any jokes. Yeah, about this person's tongue being very big. I was just observing, wow, this whale of a- You think you could ever observe something and not make a joke about it? I'm not sure. Yeah. There's no scientific evidence to support the claim that syphilis originated from sheep.

Thank you so much for looking back. It likely was brought to Europe by Columbus' crew. Columbus, they were sheep fuckers. It does say that. Yeah, that part's true. This is how conspiracies start. Well, no, but you're kind of like, this could all seem like pageantry so that we could demonstrate we're above that because you just pushed back, then we looked it up,

then turns out I'm wrong. It's not from fucking sheep, continue on. Okay, anyway, I just think it's best if none of us were glasses. Okay, I think that's all for the paintings. Okay, great. There's a lot of money up there. Okay, first cousin once removed.

Someone who's related to you as a first cousin, but is in a different generation. Specifically, they are the child of your first cousin or your parents' first cousin. Think of it as a first cousin who was a generation removed from you. So that's a tricky one for me because I have Mandy and Kelly

who would be, they'd fall under this category. I thought they were your cousins. They are, but they're my dad's cousin's children. But here's what makes it tricky. I'm gonna tell you why it's complicated. There's only two bloodlines. Because my grandpa's brother married my grandma's sister and had Mandy and Kelly's mom.

Oh. So they're like double first cousins, I think is what they called themselves. And so because of that proximity, I'm actually not, I'm like it's same blood level as would be if it were my brother, you know. Huh. But they were your dad's cousin's kids.

Yeah. Your first cousin once removed is supposed to be your dad's cousin. But that's interesting, the two bloodlines thing, isn't it? Yeah, that is. Yeah. Okay, who is Jacob Rothschild? Big business guy.

Nathaniel Charles Jacob Rothschild, 4th Baron Rothschild, was a British hereditary peer investment banker and member of the Rothschild banking family. Rothschild is a hard one. I can see you trying to not bring it up over there. Rothschild banking family. Rothschild is a hard one. I can see you trying to not bring it up over there. Rothschild? Rothschild? Rothschild. I was thinking, I wasn't trying to not bring it up.

I was just thinking about that there, the Rothschilds are the center of many, many age-old conspiracies. And then I was thinking, oh, this is related to what I was saying earlier. Because I think when people acquire great wealth, they amass great wealth, all of a sudden, they're somehow running the world and they're cheating.

So like the Rothschilds are the center of all this, that book I read, The Behold the Pell Horse. They're kind of like, they're crucial players in the Illuminati theory. Like they themselves believe it or people believe it about them? People think the Rothschilds have run the world order. Rothschilds.

Rothschild. See? Johns Hopkins. It is a Johns Hopkins situation. It is a regular old Johns Hopkins right here. Okay, the book Careless People is by Sarah Wynn-William. Are people from New Orleans called New Orleanians? Yes.

Assassinations due to J.D. Salinger's book. Oh, here we go. Many murder cases throughout its time. Mark David Chapman, who had an obsession with the book, murdered John Lennon. Also John Hinckley, who attempted to assassinate Ronald Reagan. Gut shot.

Was thought to be obsessed with the books as well. There are many other people whose murders or attempted murders are thought to be connected to The Catcher in the Rye, such as Lee Harvey Oswald's assassination of JFK and Robert John Bardo, the man who killed Rebecca Schaeffer. It says Holden Caulfield might have some criminal potential as well, having similar traits of killers. Yeah, I That's my favorite book because you're a killer because I like to kill people and I do think it captures very well a

feeling of not fitting in or feeling different different in a way that's going to prevent you from Integrating the way everyone else seems to be integrating. Yeah. And I think that's on the ladder to that. Yeah, it's a slippery slope to incel. Like a soft landing is punk rock music, but you could follow it further. Yeah, I think a lot of these people in basements

who are, what are they called? Incels? Yeah, I said inc cells, but something else. Basement dwellers? No. Rat people. Chosen. Chodes?

No, it's constant. Jesus. God. Just go on Kimmel already. Get this over with. Chodes. It's cause something like abstinent, like not chosen abstinence, but something like that.

Celebit? No. What if I became an incel because I started doing research? Involuntary celibates? Yeah, that's it I think. Involuntary celibacy. To think is just where the term incel comes from.

Just like the long term. Oh, that's what it comes from. I never knew that. It's an acronym-ish. It's actually a portmanteau. It's what? A portmanteau. That's what it means when you take two parts of two words

and put them together. A portmanteau? Yeah, you ever heard that? Oh my God. A portmanteau. A Natalie portmanteau. That 2. A Natalie Portman 2. That's like if Natalie Portman had a Fu Manchu, you would call that Natalie Portman 2.

Heterosexual men who blame women in society for their lack of romantic success. That's not gonna get it done, boys. I wouldn't say it's the best route. No, no. Yeah, I mean, could you make yourself any less appealing? I know, that's the irony of the whole thing. I know.

It's the double edged sword that people can come together on the internet and find each other in a great way, and then they can find each other in a terrible way. Cause these dudes, there were always dudes that couldn't get laid in their basement. Yeah. In their mom's basement. But they were mainly watching TV.

Right, but they couldn't commiserate and feel bad for themselves and become victims. Those other guys who were in the basement just watching TV, now they seem hot. Yeah, just the lazy guys. Yeah. Do you think sex robots will cure this? Um, no.

Like if all these incels get a really good sex robot, will they not be so hostile anymore? No, because they still want the power over women. Like they don't want women to be more powerful than them. And so the sex robot isn't gonna fix that. Well, the sex robot won't be more powerful than them. They'll be in charge. I know, but they'll still be real women in the world.

Yeah, I just wonder if it's like, if you video game it, they'll be distracted with that. I mean, they can masturbate these, it's not like... They wanna move their hips and hump. That's a primal desire to do a humping. They do, on the couch. They just hump their couch. Yeah, I'm watching a show where the woman just

masturbated by humping a big pillow. Yeah. I just got envious of female anatomy. Sure. I understand. I couldn't hump a pillow to completion. I bet there is something you could put it in and get off. Pillows everywhere. You check into a hotel room, and if you can just hump a pillow, that's great.

But why do you think that's better than jacking yourself up? Because it's somebody else. You're not, exactly. You're not providing the friction. I see. There's no like dual signals going on, like you're trying to ignore your hand.

Yeah, I'm surprised they haven't invented like a mechanical hand. They have. Okay, yeah. I think it's called a flesh light. Oh, a flesh light, yeah, that like a mechanical hand. They have. Okay, yeah. I think it's called a flesh light. Oh, a flesh light, yeah, that's a... I've thought about it. Oh yeah, that's a thing.

I've thought about it, and you know what has prevented me from ever trying one? The cleanup. Ew. That's disgusting. I don't wanna deal with a machine that I'm humping. Also, don't you have to hold the flashlight? Presumably, yeah, yeah.

I think the hand, like... It's just a mannequin hand? Yeah, you can like connect it to the wall. Oh, well I got a suction cup. No, like it's plug-in, but it's a long cord. So if you're in bed, you don't have to touch it. I tried to hump numerous times the toilet paper roll, which was always, it never worked,

but it always called to me, because it was a circle. Okay. All right. I don't think I want to know anymore. Okay. You've got a boundary. Yeah. Casey Sepp's book on Harper Lee, Furious Hours, Murder, Fraud, and the Last Trial of Harper Lee.

Okay. The tiger lady, he mentioned this tiger lady, he said tiger lady or lion lady who he mentioned this tiger lady. He said tiger lady or lion lady who got all that plastic surgery, do you remember her? Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it was tiger lady. Jocelyn Wildenstein.

I wonder how much money that costs. Well, she had a high profile divorce from billionaire art dealer. Ding, ding, ding. Oh my God. And businessman Alec Wildenstein, cat-like facial appearance. She, oh she passed away in December.

She went through all nine lives? Wow. She has two children. Oh, okay, now I'm sorry. That was a pretty good one. Okay, let's see if it says here. Oh my God, her yearly telephone bill was $60,000 and food and wine cost $547,000. This is in the like settlement, divorce settlement?

I guess. She received $2.5 billion in the divorce settlement. Oh my Lord. Yeah. That's outrageous. Yeah. She could own almost all those paintings. But. That's outrageous. Yeah. She could own almost all those paintings.

But then she went bankrupt. She went bankrupt. How the fuck did she lose 2.5 bill? She had a lot of... Well, that's not in surgery. Well, some of it is. Maybe a mill. Yeah.

Oh, three apartments in Trump Tower were repossessed in 2020. Oh my God, she ran through two and a half billion. I don't know why I'm surprised a woman who turned herself into a cat also wasn't great with money, but it still shocks me to lose that much money. Yeah, she was Swiss. I'm glad she's Swiss. They need something. You never hear anything bad about the Swiss. They're always been neutral

They've got great chocolate and skiing Great banking. Yeah, we need something on them. And this is a start. That's true. Oh Okay, did Ted Olson argue the most cases in front of the Supreme Court? so there's like a list of from lone descent, of US Supreme Court top advocates. Number one is Lawrence G. Wallace, 157 arguments. Whoa.

Yeah. Then there's, number two is an unknown advocate. Okay. Wants to go by unknown. Three. What a mensch. Three is Edwin Needler, 143. Four, Michael Dreeben, 106.

Five, Paul Clement, I've heard that name. 92. Six, Carter Phillips, 86. Seven, Erwin Griswold, 83. Ted is 13 on this list. Okay. My claim wasn't that he had argued the most, but I thought he was maybe the most victorious.

But I bet some of those names are from like people in the 1800s that were there every other day. Back when it was in the basement, it was kind of a joke. Kangaroo court. I don't know. That's mean again. I was sad.

Do you ever read like this? Like you're Stevie Wonder playing the piano. No. He said he passed. I know. That really bummed me out. I feel very lucky that I had a dinner with him. I felt really kind of weird in that moment. You did.

Because I knew that was new, like you were finding out. Yeah, and I always had this fantasy we would interview him someday because I really, really enjoyed the dinner I had with him. Yeah, so I felt, felt like. What'd you feel?

Like I should feel stupid? I'm delirious. Okay, we've been at this for a while. Okay. You don't know how you felt. I will, no, I just felt like, what if you cried? Like what if you like got really needed to take a break? When that would have been fine, of course, but.

No. Yeah. Not if I need to take a break. We have a guest. We can't invite guests on it. And then I go, I need to take a break. If you find out that I die in the middle of an interview, I hope you take a break. That'll mean I have witnessed you get killed in the middle of an interview, I hope you take the pick. That'll mean I have witnessed you get killed

in the middle of the interview. You're never not in the interview. Or have a heart attack. Okay. I will have to take a break, yeah, to start chest compressions. Or what if an email comes in with my AIDS test? Oh boy, we're gonna get in hot, hot water this episode.

Unarable, cut it, dump it. Dump it. All right, that's it. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you.

Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you.

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