Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Noah Hawley (Fargo Week)

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

Noah Hawley (Fargo, Lucy in the Sky, Legion) is a screenwriter, director, and producer. Noah concludes Fargo Week and joins the Armchair Expert to discuss how he balances the tone of comedy and violence, how having a fraternal twin has influenced his writing, and where his version of masculinity comes from. Noah and Dax talk about the importance of mentorship, why it’s important to share in decision-making, and why people don’t like to ask for advice. Noah talks about his awkward breakfast with the Coen Brothers, what the concept of “failing up” is, and how much he loves the creative process. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Modest Mouse. Hi there. Hi. Jacques-Marie Marge. Jacques-Marie, she's, Yomani's in her Jacques-Marie Marge new sunglasses looking very cool. Yeah, and if you want to hear more, which I know you do, listen to the fact check. How could you resist?

Try not to skip forward all the way to the fact check right now because you're so hot to hear about these Jacques-Marie marriage. Today, to finish out Fargo Week, to close strong. And you heard the reverence that both of the actors we spoke to this week have for this man, Noah Hawley. Wow. He is the creator and the showrunner and the screenwriter and the director of Fargo. He's so outrageously talented. He's also a novelist.

We'll get into this. Maybe that was prolific writer. No, we had R.L. Stine. I guess he sets the bar pretty high for prolificness. I'm just saying. Oh, quantity. Quantity. I see.

The fact that Noah wrote six novels while he was writing several different TV shows seems impossible. That is a lot. But you probably love him from Fargo. He also created and ran Legion, Lucy in the Sky, My Generation, The Usuals. His books, just to name a few, The Anthem, Before the Fall, and The Good Father. And of course, season five of FX's Fargo is out now, which you probably have already consumed. And if not, I'm so jealous. Noah is so smart.

This is such an interesting episode. Yeah, he definitely felt more like when we interview a professor from Harvard. Yes, it doesn't feel esoteric, which sometimes is the fear when we have showrunners or directors on. It doesn't feel like that at all. He's just an all-around polymath. Hardcore. Please enjoy Noah Hawley. Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on a beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. He's an armchair expert.

He's an armchair expert. Welcome. Thanks for being here. Hi, Monica. Nice to meet you. I would ask if you're always up this early, but with the noise, I would imagine it's hard to ever sleep. Well, I am up this early. We don't ever record this early.

This is unique. I appreciate you changing it up. We did this one other time. Do you remember when we had Monica and I crashed my visor the other day? Yeah. Was it like a shirt? I don't remember, but yes, you crashed. It was an expert, I don't remember, but yes, you can. It was an expert. We were willing to do it at like seven in the morning

and I used to live a thousand feet that way through this gated neighborhood. And I have this electric bike and I'm coming over this hill, it's pitch black, it's like six in the morning and I'm flying on this electric bike and right as I cross the hill, there's a car coming. So I swerved to the right

and then immediately there's a park. It's like a set piece happening in real life. So this one went much easier. I'm so glad. I don't want anyone injured in the making of this part. No injuries yet. I'm not a big believer in suffering for art. I think it's misguided and macho thing.

I agree. Yeah, that's actually a really great first topic because I look around me and I hear these horror stories. I'm not going to name names. Well, I'm going to name some names and then we're going to cut them out. I hear these experiences of these different directors. I have to acknowledge that the work is fucking great.

Yeah. It's so disheartening. I'm like, is that the only way? But I mean, clearly it's not. But do you ever succumb to that fear? Like, God, can you do it as a nice guy? Yeah, you can do it as a nice guyumb to that fear like god can you do it as a nice guy yeah you can do it as a nice guy there's no reason you can't do it as a nice guy and there's no reason you can't just do your best work and go home to your family yeah and i've certainly been exposed to the other side of it of people who believe that the drama has to exist off

the screen as well as on the screen and i I think that's completely inefficient. I don't think it buys you anything really other than trauma. And I read the 800 page book on the making of 2001 A Space Odyssey. I don't know if you read that at all. I haven't. Please save me the 800 pages. Well, I read it. Two people almost died. You know, when they put the ape makeup on, you've got about three minutes of air. No way. Oh, wow. And the same with the space helmets. So they almost killed a couple of actors because Kubrick was like, keep rolling. And so I read this 800 page book while I was making Lucy in the Sky. And I thought, well, if anyone wrote a book about this movie, they'd say they made the movie and that would be the book. Because it was just, we just showed up every day. We made the movie and I think all the energy's on the screen.

But then again, you know, 2001 Space Odyssey, it's a masterpiece. Of course. Yeah. I feel like it's an excuse to just be horrible. Like, I need this. I've earned it. I'm not sure. Well, let's put it this way.

There's like a level of dedication and perfectionism that exists probably for Fincher, who's willing to do 78 takes. I admire what he's doing. And then in that process, people are likely going to suffer. And then that's when I start going like, fuck, do I have it in me? But there's a difference, I think, between what you're calling suffering and what David does. I mean, yes, it's a lot of takes within the energy of the day, but it's not. Almost dying in a gorilla mask. Psychological manipulation and melodramas off the screen. And Ridley Scott, who I'm working with on this Alien series, told me a story about when he made Alien,

he would always have an AD or something jump out at the actors at some point during the day and scream in there to scare the crap out of them. You know what I mean? Because as a young director, he thought that that energy was required to keep the level of fear up on the set. As an older man, he knows it's called acting. You don't need to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's some pretty famous Dustin Hoffman quotes about that similarly. He had stayed up all night long for Marathon Man, and then he got around another actor, and he said, you know, that's a fine approach, but also you could act. Right, right. Which is what you've been paid to do. world and what I always love about them is that they can be really grounded and real but they know what movie they're in they know that it's a slightly heightened tone and sometimes you get the more methody American actors and it's hard for them to keep in mind that there's comedy in here yes there's violence coming yes we're facing these forces of darkness but the tone is elevated and the Brits are so good at the energy of denial versus acceptance. Well, it's almost built in culturally, right?

They're just not easily riled. Right. It's almost like as a cultural pride. They're sipping tea as bombs are cascading down. Right. And the fun is to just keep increasing the pressure until they crack. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. This is very early for me, so I'm a little out of my sorts, but I know stuff about you already within like the first two minutes you're sitting here. Okay, tell me. Okay. You're pretty hypervigilant. Is that a fair assessment? Vigilant in terms of being aware of my surroundings.

Yeah, I pay attention. Yeah, yeah. Me too. I'm aware. And a lot of it in comedy is it's all material, right? So you say something and then 10 minutes later, if I don't remember it, I can't bring it back. Pay it off. Yeah. But I'm also a dad. So you're always like, that's a sharp corner. Right. How old are your kids? Well, they're older now. I have a 16 and an 11 year old.

Are they in school in Austin? They are. Did they start here in LA in school? My daughter did a year here, but I've only really ever lived in LA maybe three years total over the 20 years of my career. I started in San Francisco and then I came down to LA and I worked on the show Bones for a couple of years, but then I got my own show and then we filmed it in New York and then we moved to Austin and then somewhere around the first season of Fargo, I had this panic that we were doing it wrong. Like we'd retired to Austin and we needed to get back. So we moved back to LA.

My wife was pregnant. And within like four months, they picked up Fargo. And then we moved to Canada. To shoot there. And my wife says that I was making Fargo and she was living it. So kids in school, you know, 40 below zero. In the great north. Yeah.

But you're from New York. I grew up, yeah, in the West Village. I got to say, well, I'm just a hyper Fargo fan, okay? Like, I talk about it on here all the time. I just could not be more blown away, particularly with season five, for many reasons. A, it's just the most incredible season. But then also, I find it so impressive that, by my estimation, that season five could possibly be the best season so far. It's like its own unique triumph. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And my hope was that if

I was going to do another one, that the only acceptable review was Back and Better Than Ever. It sort of concentrated Fargo this year. The episodes are really tight and short. There's a lot of suspense and energy to it. It's not as philosophical a season as some of the early ones. Last year, set in 1950, 23 main characters, 60-minute episodes, which was a triumph in my mind for different reasons. But coming back this time, I really thought, you know, as a viewer, I was feeling a little overwhelmed by the volume of story within a show. It's hard to know what that critical mass is. And I think when you're inside of it, you certainly aren't the best to evaluate. Not that

I'm agreeing with your criticism of it or anything. Just it's hard to know critical mass in that. When is it fatiguing? It is. And my motto is, what else can I get away with? And so you want to push the envelopes. And certainly going into a fourth year of Fargo, it's sort of what haven't we done going into a fifth season and going back to the movie, feeling like we've finally earned the right to engage directly with the movie Fargo. It did just create a story that was super streamlined and was really fun. The trick of it was there's a lot of comedy in the scripts. And then the moment that you make it real and you bring in the violence, and especially the domestic violence, managing that tone becomes a lot trickier.

Yeah, I even heard an inside thing I want to know about later to that exact point of when have we dipped into a hole we shan't climb out of is quite a task. Yeah, and you see that Coen Brothers tone, it requires a sort of narrower bandwidth. You can't descend into farce and still maintain the drama and the violence, and you can't get too brutal and still maintain the comedy. So you're always trying to adjust where you are. of different almost genres yet a cohesive tone i think that's the most artful tightrope walk one does and so few people do it successfully like if you look at all the pulp fiction knockoffs that came it's like he too is a master of you're laughing at this violence scorsese you're laughing

at the mailman being shoved in the oven but there's a handful yeah if you look at the show you know a lot of it has to do with where music is and what music is. And if you're managing multiple tones, you can't score the comedy or you'll lose the drama and you can't score the drama. Otherwise, the comedy goes away. And so it becomes very tricky sometimes to figure out where the cue goes and what the cue should be. And this season, especially with Juno and the suspense and the sense,

because she is this creative problem solver. I talk with Jeff Russo, the composer, about creating this sort of like, there she goes again, like scheming kind of cue that can come in at certain moments. She's in MacGyver mode. Yeah, that reminds you that there's something playful that's happening here. But if you overuse it, then it pulls the teeth out of the suspense. It's a complicated dance that goes all the way from script to the locked cut. Yeah, it's very, very precise. Have you gained confidence over this amount of time?

Like when you started season one, I assume it was more of like, oh God, are we about to do something crazy? And now it's gotten a lot of validation over time. I assume you've gotten more confident? Yeah. You know, it was such a terrible idea to adapt Fargo, the movie, that it was actually pretty liberating to feel like, well, two people are going to watch this and one of them is going to hate watch it. But the other thing was that under the auspices of making a Coen Brothers movie, I could get away with things that I couldn't get away with if it was just me. So I could say like, well, it's not that I want a 10 minute parable sequence.

Right. Right. But it is a Coen Brothers movie. So it feels like that's in the cinematic language of their storytelling. You're also inheriting an audience in a sense that has already declared a tone they love. So there's also a lot of benefit to it, I'd imagine. But I want to skip back. So when I asked to get you on here, it was of a fan of Fargo, right?

And then, of course, I was also aware of Legion. And then in researching you yesterday, I really didn't understand the brunt of what you've been up to for the last 15 years. You've written six novels. You've created five TV shows, maybe six. You've done features. You've written many features. It's bonkers. But I have to say the thing that almost answered the most for me to learn about you was, I think we're in this really incredible year of

feminist product and the best I've ever seen. The most obvious is Barbie. That was this year, and that was phenomenal. But I don't know if you saw Poor Things. Yes. But fucking Poor Things. I'm like, wow, they articulated this thing that men have in the most elegant and incredible way. It's so brutally honest. It's the Anthony Bourdain story. And then this season of Fargo is so feminist in the most delightful way.

So I'm reading about you and finding out like, oh, your mother was a very outspoken activist, feminist activist, talking about sexual abuse, talking about incest, writing books, speaking around the world. And then I thought, okay, this kind of adds up for me how you pulled off such a feminist point of view in this season. So I want to go back to New York, growing up with that mother. And also, buckle up, Monica. He's an, well, not identical.

Are you and Alexi identical? Fraternal. Fraternal twin. And his brother created The Rookie. His brother has created a few TV shows. Wow. Yes. Okay.

So this is all the insanely exciting stuff I learned yesterday. But can we talk about what life in Manhattan was like with that mom and a twin brother? Yeah. I mean, I grew up in Manhattan in the 70s and 80s. And my mother was a writer. Her mother had been a writer. Her mother who had emigrated from Ukraine when she was five years old and never had more than an eighth grade education. She ended up as the assistant to Walter Lippman, who ran the New York World and was a very famous essayist at the time. And she was a playwright and she moved in that sort of Maxwell Anderson circle. And then she had my mother and my mother's first book. It was a children's book. It was called A Child's Guide to Freud. Perfect. Primer. And it was an illustrated Oedipal complex story. This is Billy. He wants to sleep with his mother

and kill his father. That was a quite hip thing in 1964, whenever she published it. And she was born in 37, right? So she was... Yeah. So my parents, they were just before the baby boomer all the hippie stuff like we tried the commune thing early on but my parents ended up the grown-ups at the commune which is not driving the school bus with no headlights but somebody's got to be on the roof with the flashlight and right so we were in the west village in the late 70s my mother who had been an incest survivor she wrote this this book, Kiss Daddy Goodnight. And she sent the proposal to a lot of publishers.

And they said, well, it's a fascinating subject, but it's just so rare. Oh, my God. Right, right. So I've talked about me molested on here. As a dude in 2020, found that to be one of the most impossible things to talk about publicly. So where does this woman, born in 1937, have the gall to admit she has been a victim of incest? Because that's got to be the single most taboo topic. Well, certainly it was. It's something that people don't want to talk about. And at that

time, as I said, it's so rare, quote unquote. You know, but I think part of it was being in the New York second wave feminism environment, knowing the Andrea Dworkins and Susan Brown Millers and Gloria Steinem's. And there's a certain empowerment, I think, that comes from seeing other people telling their stories. And she was tough, my mom. She had a great sense of humor, and she pushed hard on things. And she didn't have a college education either. She never made it past high school. And so her whole thing was, I'm just asking a question. And so she did that book and book on domestic violence, book on kids in private psych hospitals. And it was always just like, well, bringing the audience in for, help me figure this out. If it's a crime to do it to the neighbor's kid, why isn't it a crime to do

it to your own kid? Right. That was the premise. This idea of incest survivor was very political at the time. Political in the sense that there was a criminal element to it, right? And there was this sense of consequences. But what survivor meant to her was you had survived it and you had moved on. And then what was born in the aftermath of that book was the self-help industry, which came up in the 80s and had a lot to do with incest. Once everyone realized, oh, it's not that rare, then surviving became this thing that you did for your whole life.

It became a self-help thing, not we need to change the laws. And so that was always the element in our house was that it was never this touchy-feely thing. It was always like, well, we need to treat people better and we need the loss to reflect that. Well, now as adults, you and I can appreciate how brave and incredible that that was the road she took. But I can also imagine as the son and a young kid being pretty embarrassed that this is mom's work. I don't remember feeling that. When you're a boy raised by a feminist mother, I mean, our parents sort of train us anyway, right? You

always think that your parents are normal. That's what normality is. And because this was happening before adolescence for me, you don't have that same kind of embarrassment. If I'd been 13 and suddenly those issues were in front of me, it would have been a different environment, I think. But instead, it just seemed normal. She would have these instant survivors coming through and interview them. It was a speak out. So there was people telling their own stories, and she'd pay each of them a dollar. So there was some contract, some rights thing, and they would just tell their stories. I certainly wasn't in the room for those stories being told, but I was there for the meals. I was there for the friends that she made during that process. And yeah, if you look at Fargo, Fargo is a female show. It's Frances

McDormand. Alien is a female movie. It's Sigourney Weaver. And so the power of orienting me as a storyteller, I can't overestimate the impact of that. I have a similar mother. Minimally, I saw modeled a woman being capable of absolutely anything. And I think that's really impactful. You know, it was such a positive thing. That said, that survival, that idea that you had that experience and moved on from it didn't prove to be psychologically true for her.

Do you know what I mean? I don't think for anyone, right? Yeah, and so my parents were sort of madman generation. So it was smoking, it was drinking, and that stuff catches up with you. And she became, in the back half of her life, a sort of more frightened person, and she was an alcoholic. It was catching up with her. Yeah.

So part of what I've done in this year of Fargo, because there's always a character in Fargo who is denying reality to themselves. Just like Bill Macy in the movie. He did this terrible thing. He was doing everything he could to stay away from it psychologically. He wouldn't even admit it to himself. And so those characters like Kirsten Dunst's character, Martin Freeman's character, the denial of reality is always tragic for everyone around them. And Juno's character is very similar, right? Even though she's fun protecting everyone, she's still not really admitting what happened to her. And so a big part of the season was differentiating her from those earlier characters and having her face the abuse that she suffered so that she could heal from it and then happily ever

after for the people around her, potentially. I didn't notice the parallel until you just said it, but in a weird way, it's almost the same device as like Bourne, where he doesn't know why he's got all these skills. Right. And we get that same sense from her when we meet her like, oh, she has this bizarre skill set that seems pretty inexplicable as a woman at the PTA meeting. Right. Does she know? And it's funny that it can be self-imposed, that device.

Yeah. And it's not that she's actually ignorant of her past. It really is. Well, I don't want to go back there. And if I admit it, this life that I've built is going to go away. And so I'm going to do everything I can to pretend it's not happening for as long as possible. It endangers her husband, it endangers her child. But because she's such a fun and mischievous character, we don't ever go like, this is the world's worst mom. Right? She's been so reckless with everyone she loves. But what I love is that she teaches her daughter how to be prepared without teaching her to be afraid, which I think is a really critical thing because there's too much fear in our world. But it's good to be prepared for things, just not to live in fear of them. How does being a twin, because twins pop up all over the place in your work. There's a lot of brother stuff, yeah.

Yeah, but even the notion that Ewan McGregor is playing an identical twin in one season, and then you have twins in a few different. You have the Kitchen brothers in the second year. And then outside of the Fargo universe, in your book, The Good Father. Yes. year. And then outside of the Fargo universe, in your book, The Good Father, he suspects his son has killed somebody. He newly has twins, isn't that right? Right, he does. And then the punch has brothers in it. Do you have? I have an older brother, so I have the most little brother complex you've ever seen. He's five years older, so I was convinced I was terrible at everything. I just

lived to be invited to anything he did. But we have a shared identity yet at the same time. Because of the chaos in our house, I was just writing about it this weekend. We looked at each other at some point in life and thought, oh, right, everyone's nuts, right? You see it, and it's you and I, and it's us against the world. And that's a bond that's pretty bonkers. We're not twins, but I do have that thing. Yes, it's certainly formative. And what you don't really have as a twin is personal space. I married a woman who's an only child and she'd be happy to never be alone again. I relish my privacy because I spent 18, 20 years not necessarily sharing a room, but definitely sharing a life. Same high school, same college. I was going to be a musician and I played guitar and sang and he

played drums and we had a band. And so there was this segue when it's time to choose a college. It's like, well, we want to keep that going. The band together. Yeah. So we went to the same college. Was he a poli-sci major as well? There were no majors at Sarah Lawrence where we went. Don't you have a degree in political science? I have a lovely BA from Sarah Lawrence. I don't know what you would necessarily say it's in, but I did study a lot of political science there. And then, you know, we went to New York to try to be rock stars or whatever. But then there did come a point in my mid twenties, because it's not just my brother in the band, there's these other filthy penniless men, right? And you're just like, I kind of feel like I want to do I'd never really known anything else. And so I took a trip to San Francisco, and I was just like, you mean it can just be beautiful someplace, and the bridge

is orange, and I moved there. People are paragliding off of things. Yeah, and really just sort of established my own thing for a decade. I was publishing, and my brother had started doing some screenwriting, trying to break into that. And then my first book was Optioned by Paramount. And I ended up adapting it for them, among other projects that got set up. And so we were suddenly on a parallel track. It's pretty comical, really. Back to the wife, because I too married an only child. I'm going to make some guesses. Do you love to shut the door in the bedroom and she leaves it open? Let me see. You mean when we're in there or? Yeah. Just for me, I want that fucking door shut because my brother had access to me at all times

and just took whatever he wanted from me. And I'm like a big, I want the door shut. I think it's more of the mom thing. I think it's more of the, I would shut the door, but then what if the kids need something in the night, you know? And it's like, well, they're a little bit old now. I think they can figure that out. Do you like sharing food from your plate with her? Yeah. I don't mind that. night, you know? And it's like, well, they're a little bit old now. I think they can figure that out. Do you like sharing food from your plate with her? Yeah, I don't mind that. Oh, you do? No, I don't mind that.

And then Sarah Lawrence, did you watch the doc on Sarah Lawrence? I did. What? Well, it was just the setting. I hate to make it a Sarah Lawrence doc because it's unfair to Sarah Lawrence. It is, but wasn't it in the title? Yeah, which is so unfair, but yeah. What did you think of that doc? Monica and I loved it. It's a wild story. It's a unicorn, which is why those things

like Wild Wild Country, it's so tabloid and the behavior of that man was so crazy. But to be fair to my alma mater, the vast majority of that story- And to Bill Lawrence. Yeah, the vast majority of that story happened in New York City, outside of the school. None of it was even on campus. Had nothing to do with the school. Yeah. My fascination with that was. Maybe remind people or tell people.

Oh, yeah. So there is a man gets out of prison. His child is going to school at Sarah Lawrence. He moves in to her apartment. She is sharing that with four or five other kids. And slowly over the course of him living there, he grooms all of them to become members of really a cult. And then he takes them out into the city and they live in an apartment and they just have the most destructive dystopian existence. And for me, I was like, we're so much more vulnerable

mentally than we ever want to acknowledge. And it's just below the surface. Like when you see what the people would endure through that weird psychological manipulation of this person, and even really incredibly smart people. The one gal was a doctor. I looked at that and I was like, oh, it's so scary in that we all are very vulnerable. Yeah, and it started as a New York magazine piece that I read. And of course, if you're a certain level in Hollywood, everyone's always calling you to say, do you want

to do something with this? And the thing about that story for me, for all its salaciousness is I need something positive. You need a triumph. I made this movie, Lucy in the Sky, which was a fictionalized version of this sort of diaper astronaut story. I don't know the diaper astronaut. Well, it was this woman who had gone to space and she had started this affair with this other astronaut. At the space station? Back at NASA.

Oh, sorry. Back on Earth. It's like on a meet cute. You know, he had basically, it hadn't lasted long. And then he had gotten involved with this other woman. And so the female astronaut in question had driven across the country to confront the two of them with some half-cocked kidnapping scheme. And the story had been that she'd worn a diaper for the drive. Now that's ringing a bell.

She was in such a hurry. And so what I was interested in doing was taking a tabloid story, which, as we know, is a story that robs people of their dignity. Right. And I was like, let's give her dignity back because the reality is she was just a very troubled woman who had these big feelings and didn't know what to do with them. So when I looked at that Sarah Lawrence story, I was just like, well, I don't see what the upside is. Who am I rooting for in this story? It's just a tale of mass destruction, really. It's a heartbreaking story as a parent of these children with such promise in their future who are totally derailed by a predatory criminal. Narcissist. Yeah. I guess my interest in it is

the exact interest I have in the Stanford prison experiment. You know, I'm preoccupied with how people dominate other people. I think that's my primary focus and who's going to try to dominate me and know where the potholes are. Wow, this is interesting. How does someone fall into this? Just psychologically, I found it very interesting and terrifying. Yeah, because it doesn't seem possible. We tell ourselves. It's so transparent. Why would you? It's not like he's an attractive man. And he's coming in. He's somebody's dad. So I guess he has authority.

But at 18, 19, are we really that intimidated by adults at that point? I think you are lost. Searching. Yeah. And he's purporting to have had this extraordinary life as maybe a CIA agent or something. So he's really activated their own sense of romance and what life could be. I mean, there's just a lot going on there.

It's not like he's just a bozo that showed up, took his shirt off, and he had followers. Right. Charisma is a real thing. We see it. Certainly we see it in this town.

I mean, it's sort of the business of an actor to be charismatic. I hope you're feeling it right now or I'm powerless. I mean, it's a good thing there's at least four feet separating us.

Certainly in our politics, we're feeling the power of charisma. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Sasha hated sand, the way it stuck to things for weeks. So when Maddie shared a surf trip on Expedia Trip Planner, he hesitated. Then he added a hotel with a cliffside pool to the plan. And they both spent the week in the water. You were made to follow your whims.

We were made to help find a place on the beach with a pool and a waterfall and a soaking tub. And of course, a great shower. Expedia. Made to travel. Going back to the band in New York. So I just have some guesses here because there's these interesting gaps. Was your dad around? I just have to ask that. My dad was around until my 30s. He had been an actor in New York. They met because she went to a play that he was in. And when he had kids, he went out and got a job and worked first at United Press International and then was part of the birth of cable television, worked at the first satellite news network. But he was in sales and he would travel first the country and then the world. And ultimately,

he went to work for Westinghouse and traveled the world trying to sell country music, television, and the Nashville Network to the Japanese. Oh, wow. Did he succeed in that endeavor? Yeah, yeah. But it also gave me a real sense of personal responsibility. He realized that he had to provide for his family. And he was such a great partner for my mom. And you see it reflected in the work. You see it reflected in the Wayne character, the husband, this exploration of masculinity. Yes. And being able to not be threatened by a woman who's dominant and strong and engaged. Wayne's a guy, he's got a car dealership. He brings home the money, but she's just better at the decisions.

And his mother, again, it makes total sense he's married her. Very strong mother. And it's like, he just wants to play floor hockey in his socks and watch Real Housewives. Like he doesn't need to be the boss of everything. I mean, I feel the same way. I am a boss. I get to make so many decisions. Then when I go home, I'm like, why do I have to be the boss here too? I don't need to, I don't want to. You talked about power and dominance and this idea of having to impose your will on others. And sometimes it literally will come out of anxiety for people of like, I need to have my way. Otherwise I'm not settled or comfortable. And I think the more that you can

share the decision-making or accede some control, the healthier a person you are. Yeah. Yeah. So back to New York, I too had this moment where I was two years out of high school. I was living in a flat in Detroit with three other dudes. And then I had this moment of like, oh, you're going to look up in 30 years and be in this flat. And I had this insatiable drive to not do that and then moved out here by myself and was insanely lonely. And in that loneliness started writing because it was like my only escape. And I'm curious what was happening in San Francisco. You were a paralegal there? Yeah, I had started in New York. In New York, I worked for the Legal Aid Society and Family Court. And so I was one of two paralegals for like 40 attorneys doing abuse and neglect cases,

termination of parental rights cases, and juvenile delinquency cases. So both civil and criminal rights cases and juvenile delinquency cases. So both civil and criminal trials in a New York family court, you're really such a band-aid in that. And there were attorneys who had worked there for so long that a child who had come in as a neglect case and then a termination of parental rights case was now a parent whose child was coming in. You know what I mean? They were watching the entire cycle. And they had to switch, which they represent. And it was so demoralizing for people. And I was there for four years in New York.

And that's where I started writing fiction, really as a way to kind of process the stress of that and the emotion of it. And then when I moved to San Francisco, I looked for similar work, but they didn't really have that kind of paid work in San Francisco. So yeah, I went to work for some law firm that represented Shell Oil Company. Okay, but so you're in San Francisco. Conspiracy of Tall Man's your first book. That's 98. How long had you been in San Francisco before that book gets published? It was like three years. San Francisco had such a great writing community. And there was this group

called the Writers Grotto there, which had been started by these six writers, including Ethan Kanan and Poe Bronson, who basically just didn't want to write in their kitchens anymore. So they just rented office space. And when I published, I ended up meeting them and then becoming part of that group. We had 21 writers and filmmakers with their own offices in this old converted dog and cat hospital. It was a sort of dream come true. We had handball on the roof and we played basketball and there was always someone to have lunch with. And if you wanted to write a piece that you thought would be good for Esquire,

you could find the guy who wrote for Esquire. And it's the opposite of the Hollywood competitive nature. It was a very collaborative and warm place. And I was there for eight or nine years. San Francisco was interesting because it was the only place I've ever lived where people make you feel like a loser for being successful. Right. It like mirrors Sweden in that way. Yeah. You sort of show up at the party and everyone's like, what have you been up to? And you're like, well, the book's coming out and I'm writing a feature or whatever. And it's like

you're holding up a mirror. It's what my wife calls the velvet rut. It's a lifestyle town and you can wake up one morning and you're 45. So is it safe to say you had a similar version of what happened in New York there? I don't want to say I outgrew it, but the Hollywood work really took off. I was single and I was like, well, there's nothing really holding me back from seeing where this wants to go. And I had written, I think, three TV pilots by that point. And I thought, well, if any of these ever gets picked up, I need to know how to make a show. And so I came down here for this pilot staffing season

that we used to have when all we had was broadcast television. Is this in 04? Yeah. I did the rounds, and I had some options of what to work on. But I went to work on Bones because Hart Hansen, the creator, said you're going to learn how to produce a show here. And he was good to his word. Yeah. options of what to work on, but I went to work on Bones because Hart Hansen, the creator, said, you're going to learn how to produce a show here. And he was good to his word. Yeah. So you do Bones for three years. Then you write another novel, The Punch. Then you

create, I guess, The Unusuals in 09. Then in 2010, you create My Generation. Then 2012, The Good Father. Fargo starts in 2014. Which means 2013 for the writing of it etc yeah can we just for one second flight publicly warren littlefield because warren was producing this project i had and i immediately fell so in love with him and then i was delighted in my research to find out that you're really involved with fargo because of Warren. Is that safe to say? He calls John Landgret at FX and pitches your version to him. And just as a slight digression, I always offer to anyone who writes don't belong here that to ask you for help would be to acknowledge that. This last year, I found myself calling two people for advice and at 48, that was the first time. Well, get out of your own way, man. I mean, you know what I'm saying? I'm pushy that way, I guess. All I'm saying is I don't think it actually comes from arrogance. I

think it comes from total self. No, no, I don't think it comes from arrogance at all. I think people either get overwhelmed or they don't take me seriously. They think I'm just being nice. Yeah, they don't want to put you out. They're codependent maybe. But if someone offers me, you're going to hear from me. And even now, I tracked down David Fincher a couple of years ago because I thought, oh, he could answer this question for me. And we'd shared a DP, Eric Mezzerschmidt. I was like, can you put me in touch with him? And then David was the nicest guy. Now I keep in touch with him. And if I have a question or just want to see him, mentorship is such a critical part of understanding. to understand what the network's thinking, I can ask both of those guys. And they've seen it from opposite sides of the table. But yes, Warren is the nicest guy who, if you need him to go full New Jersey, he will go full New Jersey. Well, and he, by the way, full circle payoff, he proves the

opposite of what we were suggesting, that you have to be an asshole to be enormously effective and successful. He's like David Carradine in fucking Kung Fu. This sweet man is going to take my hand and walk me across the finish line. How's this going to unfold? I know, but he's so savvy. I've learned a lot from him. So much of what my job is just creative problem solving, whether it's on the page or in a production. And Warren and I are similar. Rarely is the answer to yell. But if the answer is to yell, who should yell? Should Warren yell or should I yell? If I yell, it means something different. And so the more you can be unemotional, even if it's emotional for you, but to look at it strategically. And he is such a great mentor for that, where he's like, okay, calm down. We're not going to do that.

Here's what we can do that's going to be effective. So you don't really have trouble, even though you are around a lot of stories of women being abused, basically. You don't really have a problem with men. It doesn't sound like trusting men. No, I'm not alpha in that way. Although what I always found was that alpha is not really alpha. Go on. This is a topic Monica and I talk about.

I just find it, yeah. Well, you know, it's an interesting thing about leadership, right? Is that the loudest guy isn't necessarily the leader in the room. And I was never the pushiest. I was just always going to do my thing. And it was part of the twin thing also, right?

Is that my mom did an interview with us when we were five because she was a writer. And so she taped us. And my brother was on there saying, he's going to be better than me at everything. And whatever I do, he's going to follow me around. He's going to be better than me at everything. And I was just saying at five years old, I was like, well, I just want to do my thing. You know, I just want to be good at what I'm good at. And I've had that mindset ever since, really, which is I'm just going to do my thing. And it's amazing if you look like you know what

you're doing, how people just kind of fall in. It's kind of the George Washington approach. Say less and just keep marching and people will slowly go, oh, this one's not full of shit. Let's hop behind. Yeah. And it's leadership the right way, which is there's no insecurity to it. So many bosses, they have that imposter syndrome and they tend to take it out on people because they don't feel like they deserve what they've got or that their ideas are great, but they're in a position of power. And I just feel like to have a healthy sense of yourself and respect for others is the best way to lead. It's portrayed always as the like hyper-masculine chest pounding, but I don't think that's what an alpha is. Yeah.

I always like to confuse my peers in Hollywood by reaching out to them. You know, like when Ryan Murphy and I started competing in the awards in the same category, we were both at FX. I was called him up and said, let's have lunch. And he seemed very confused by that. You know what I mean?

What's my angle? Yeah. I reached out to Sonny who does Beef. I love the show. Good luck. And people are so grateful to have a human moment. Also, and I say this often, of all the different roles in Hollywood, I

think the one that really deserves the very most respect is Showrunner. I think it's the hardest, most all-encompassing. You need so many different skill sets. I think it's so impressive when people do it successfully. And of course you should all be friends because no one else really knows what you're going through. There's so much solidarity there, I'd imagine. Once you break through that awkward work competitor's phony facade.

Well, and it's such a complicated word that it's almost meaningless to people. You know, when you say showrunner, one of the things that I don't like about it is there's no art in that word. Yes, it sounds very managerial. It feels like the guy at the air traffic control versus the artistry of the writing and the filmmaking, etc. But especially the bigger showrunners, every time you go into production, you're the CEO of a $70 million production, $100 million, $150 million production. If you're Greg Berlanti or Ryan Murphy, you know, you're talking about a billion dollars of capital that you're managing for these companies. And as a result, you have relationships with the Ted Sarandoses or the Zaslavs or Iger in a way that

sort of transcends, I make a television show. And you can use that power to elevate other voices and all those things. But the collective sense, when I was at ABC Studios and we were doing My Generation, I had offices in the old animation building. And I had come from this collective of writers and filmmakers. And in the old animation building, nobody talked to each other. You pass people in the hall, they didn't really look you in the eye. And I thought, if we all collaborated, we could take over the studio. So maybe that's on purpose, I guess.

Yeah, perhaps. Okay, let's talk about directing. What's the first time you direct? Is it on Fargo? No, I did a short film. When I first was working down here, Fox Searchlight had a program called Search Lab. I don't know if it ran more than a year or two. Peter Rice was in charge of Searchlight at the time, and it was basically a new director development program,

a sort of cheap way to give a little bit of money to some directors and see if they did something interesting. And so I made a short film for them, was my first directing. But then I didn't get behind the camera again until Fargo. I want to applaud you, and it's almost maddening, but you direct one and two of season five. The first episode is

fucking unreal the set piece starting with her exiting the car and going into the gas station shot selection and how you're telling the story and what piece we see it's fucking really annoyingly masterful i hope you're so proud of that episode it's's spectacular. I am very, very proud of it. And on some level, also proud of the decisions that we made that made it possible to shoot that in four days or whatever it was. We found an airstrip that had been abandoned. We built the gas station. We created a controllable situation.

I don't storyboard everything to death, but I did map out where the camera move should be. And one of the things I'm proudest of is the simul action. Because sometimes you don't have the shot where you're like, well, she's going into the bathroom. But I have the shot where Lamorne slides down. But then in the background, you see her going into the room. And then we can connect those shots, which is the Coen brothers. They're super economical. Oh, my God, is it good can connect those shots, which is the Coen brothers. They're super economical. Oh, my God, is it good.

It's so, so impressive. You know, I was heading into set the third morning, and I was able to sort of quickly cut some stuff together. And there's a moment in the sequence now where she runs in, and she stops because she sees this Bisquick on the shelf. And that wasn't in the script. And so on that third morning, I called my AD, and I was like, I need boxes of Bisquick on the shelf. And that wasn't in the script. And so on that third morning, I called my AD and I was like, I need boxes of Bisquick. And then I need these newspaper inserts that say the most important meal of the day. Yes. So the art department scrambling, we're in

production. We're like, we're going to have those by 3 p.m. This is film and TV making. Like you have this enormous machine and quite often you're waiting for a piece of paper. Right. What I realized while I was making it was it wasn't emotional yet. Like we needed that piece that was really going to make it emotional for the audience, which I think elevates it beyond just bullets flying. Right. This is going to be an esoteric question that'll bore everyone.

But when you're writing, you know you're going to direct the thing. Do you find that you get incredibly detailed about each step? How are you managing what's on the page and what you end up going to shoot? I write it so you can see it. Rather than just saying in action lines, the action, it will say close up on, it will say angle on. It specifies visually the story. Well, now we're looking at the object on the table and now we're looking at her looking at the object on the table. And I do that for a couple of reasons. One, I just think as you're reading it, you're really seeing it. And the other thing

is I don't direct all of them. And when I hand you a script and it says close up here, probably you should get a close up here. Are you watching stuff in that same way? I guess I find that writing's the thing that'll take me out more than any probably other piece. Yeah. If they start breaking their own rules. You certainly need a character logic. And a big part of Fargo, right, is it says it's a true story. And so we can avail ourselves to coincidence and randomness and elements like that that don't always fall into fictional stories that you watch. that don't always fall into fictional stories that you watch. You know, the UFO is an example of the deus ex machina that you would be like, really?

If it was just a fictional show? But that's what happened, guys. And people might not even know the genesis of this that the Coen brothers realized at some point. You can write this is a true story, but it doesn't have to be that that was like some kind of weird breakthrough creatively. Well, and I've had so many conversations

with FX and MGM Legal about so many things, but they have never once said you can't say something's true when it's not. So that seemed like the most obvious premise to contest. Now, because the show, each season is completely different. You're basically launching a new television show every year you're introducing all new characters nothing is a given everything has to be earned all over again it's literally five different television shows thus far in one correct so that is daunting and the odds of success are low if you created 20 shows if you are a fucking babe ruth four of them might

run a few seasons right the notion that you have to do it anew every time is incredible but at the same time maybe liberating i'm curious to keep everything fresh and novel and to keep you inspired to write what are the pros and cons of this what you're really trying to create is a state of mind and it's a fascinating elastic thing. When I first went into pitch FX, my version of Fargo, I said, why is the movie called Fargo? It takes place in Minnesota. Except that the word Fargo is so evocative of a place, right? What Joel and Ethan called Siberia with family restaurants.

And after the movie, it now has come to mean a type of true crime story that isn't true, where truth is stranger than fiction. And so that state of mind, the word Fargo, has come to have this expansive meaning. And my job is just to really sort of say, okay, well, if in year one, it can be a kind of one-to-one car salesman, insurance salesman, where it kills the wife, not kidnap the, you know, with a kind of marge gunderson parallel all right it can be that but in season two can it be this 1979 crime epic about the death of the

family business and the rise of corporate america or in season three can it be this kind of like rivalry story of these two brothers that also through david thules's character explores sort of the post-corporate billionaire status. And then, of course, in the fourth year, 1950, really a story about assimilation and what it means to be an American. Yeah, every time it just feels like, what makes it Fargo? Other than a sort of tone of voice, the fact that there's always a crime, the fact that it's always basically decent people against cynicism and corruption. But it is liberating because the beats that you need, the decency, the catharsis of the ending,

you're like, I need to get there. I don't know how I'm going to get there this time. Yeah. I heard you say that this show couldn't have ever been a multi-season show in that the big happy ending at the end of Fargo the movie is life will return to normal. Sanity will resume. And so in that way, it's almost intrinsically precludes you from having a second season. But it did cross my mind while I was researching. Has it ever been talked about that you could

actually bounce back and almost do second seasons of previous seasons? I did talk to FX at one point. of previous seasons. I did talk to FX at one point. I was like, does it have to be 10 hours? Because I could do two hours with Billy. I could see revisiting that character, but I don't think we want to build a whole thing about it. And FX, they just don't want to be in the movie business.

You know, and Warren Littlefield did say to me as we were coming out of our second season, Patrick Wilson is so amazing in it. He's like, the Lou Solverson show, we got to do it. And I was like, I know, but then it's not Fargo. Then it's not a true story. Now it breaks that wall. So as much as I would love to watch that show or maybe even make that show, I couldn't do it and be consistent with the mindset. I was making a movie called The Judge and Billy Bob was leaving that movie to start Fargo oh yeah and he's like you know i gotta go up to um wherever the hell you guys shot calgary he's like oh yeah i'm gonna

be up there for it and i'm like what are you doing fargo and i'm like hmm back to your this is a terrible idea i was like well i guess you're a great start the fact that they've reached out to you he legitimized us for for sure. A thousand percent. I mean, that first scene between he and Colin Hanks. Yes. Where he's talking to him in a way that only Billy Bob can talk to somebody. Billy was such a get for us. And I had written that first script, went to meet with him.

And he had called Joel and Ethan and said, is this real? Is this bullshit? And I offered to talk him through the story, the season. He's like, no, I don't need that. Proof's on the page. And they're in, so I'm in. That really went a long way because obviously if he's going to do it, clearly qualitatively, we must be in the running with the Coens. Yes. This is a totally sidebar. My daughters are nine and and ten the ten-year-old just recently i was watching like grand budapest on a family vacation and she sat down next to me and she was like why is this so weird and i go oh well wes anderson's got these elaborate sets and there's these big

oners and they you know i'm sorry explain to her the mechanics of what makes wes anderson wes anderson so she got totally infected by it we ended up watching like seven wes Anderson movies together. And then we were sitting around at dinner not too long ago. And she said, so Wes Anderson's the best director. And I said, he is a fantastic director, but if we're talking best for me, it's probably Coen brothers and Quentin and mom starts saying these things. And she's like Coen brothers. And I was like, what could I watch with them and so last week we all as a family watched Raising Arizona and I can't explain to you my elation of watching them feel the same thing I felt because I think I saw it at probably 12 and I was like what's going on in this movie why does it look like this why is it so interesting but so those two I mean I gotta say I've gotten auditioned

for them a few times, which was so rewarding. But the privilege of getting to be able to pick up the phone and call them, I imagine, is lovely. Yeah. You know, I like to say that I have a low resting heart rate, but those guys, it's amazing. Does it fuck with you? Hell yeah. Like, give me some enthusiasm. I haven't had a lot of interactions with them.

But, you know, I've had a couple of good meals. I went by the place in Tribeca. They were editing whatever it was. And they'll say, like, you're still making that thing, you know? Right, right, right. They're not precious. I've also had, like, the world's most uncomfortable breakfast with them where it's like, they're not talking. Because they don't need to. They're just fine. They say all their words on the screen. Yeah. I just feel like I'm abusing my access. They hate me in this moment. This last time I did send Joel

an email and I said, I hear you need a new pool, so I'm going to make another Fargo. They're great. The first time I met them in person, at the very end of the meal, I said, you know, would it be okay if I called you to talk

about how you guys make a movie? And they look so horrified at that. I never followed up. I never bothered, you know. It's almost better for your own personal narrative because you ultimately did this on your own. They could have held your hand and guided you through it. And then the reward of that would have been diminished. Well, it's such a privilege if you think about the level of trust and the fact that they read that first script, and they watched that first episode, and they said, we hate imitation, but it felt like you were channeling us. They got excited. They engaged with the script, that motel scene, the do you have pets scene. They sent me a punch up, added some stuff, which was super exciting. Yeah, to receive pages that you're going to incorporate into your script from the Coen

brothers is one of those few moments in life. Yeah, it was thrilling. And then I don't know if they've ever watched another episode. I don't know. Right, right. Who would know? But on some level, that could be good, right? I imagine we're all projecting a lot of preciousness about that movie that they actually don't have. I bet some part of them is like, yeah, go ahead. Well, I've also had the thought, because every time we launch one, we would usually do a premiere event in New York.

And I would always go, and there's bus ads and subway ads. And I was like, how weird must it be for them, this movie they made in the 80s, to see, A, more marketing than that movie ever got, you know, 40 years later. I hope it feels cool for them. I'm sure it does. It has to. They're still relevant. Yeah. Okay.

How do you decide? So I don't know if every season, but certainly several of the seasons have some sprinkle of sci-fi, supernatural, otherworldly. And I personally don't love sci-fi, which breaks my heart because I'm so into your writing and what you do. I'm wanting to become obsessed with Legion and it's just a little out of my space. But with all that said, to me, it's the most perfect sprinkling of it. It's very palatable to me. It's just enough that I kind of dig it.

I love that the Swede might have been alive for the last 300 years. I don't know if that was the intention of that flashback, but it seems to me he's been alive for a few hundred years. And I'm like, I'm in. One character, give it to me. This guy's somehow a warlock. I love it. Are you inclined to add more of it or less of it? How do you figure out what percentage will have that magic in it? I mean, it kind of depends. But when I look at the Coen's work, I see a lot of these characters that I describe as sort of elemental, where you feel like maybe they've always been out there. Whether it's Anton Chigurh or the Lone Biker of the Apocalypse from Raising Arizona. The Warthog from now.

Yeah, yeah. Particularly. Cruel to the littler things. Exactly. Even the start of A Serious Man, which starts in the shtetl and it's the debunk and the whole Schrodinger's cat thing about is he alive or is he dead. So the first year with Billy Bob's character, I just had this feeling, I think maybe not literally him, but whatever he is, has always been blowing through the American landscape. He represents uncivility and sort of similar thought about David Thewlis in season three. I mean,

he's the sort of Faustian character who comes in and tempts you, and it doesn't manifest in season three in any real way other than it feels like part of it to me. Obviously, the UFO element in the second season, the Coens made that movie with Billy, the man who wasn't there, and there's a UFO in that. And for me, that came out of, all right, it's 1979. We've had Watergate. We've had all these assassinations. The conspiracy really does go all the way to the top. Watch the sky. American citizens had become so distrustful and the conspiracies were real. So there was that sense. I did find a late 70s state trooper from that region who says he saw a UFO. I mean, it just felt like we could get away

with it. Yeah. And then the Swede now. You know, and you'll see he's very much involved in the end game of the show this season. This idea of sin eating that was introduced in his story, which is, God bless the rich, they're always looking for a loophole. So it used to be that, you know, if you're a rich man who sinned,

that on your deathbed, you could give a guy two coins and he would eat food from your body and drink the wine, then your sins would pass on to him and you would go to heaven and he would go to hell. There is that idea baked into it, which, again, this season is very much about debt, both financial debt, but also the things we owe to each other. And Munch has a very kind of biblical sense of eye for eye and so all those elements the sort of old world elements it does feel very Cohen to me Roy Tillman this is my favorite role I've seen Jon Hamm and other than madmen I'm so fucking into the way he did every single thing it's hugely impressive I'm curious how you again it's a percentages thing you clearly

have your own politics you have your own assessment of the world you might have views on the billionaires and this and that and debt collectors but the salient observation of this whole season that i loved so much was lorraine the mom is having a showdown with roy tillman and this is great because this is like the most powerful woman we've seen. She takes no shit. This guy takes no shit. He's a fucking misogynist. What's going to happen in her line?

And to me, this is a real send up of the libertarian perspective, which is like, so you want all the freedom and none of the responsibility. So you want to be a baby. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God,

did that just fucking gut punch. There's something so truthful about that. Not only does he want to be a baby. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God, that just fucking gut punch. There's something so truthful about that. Not only does he want to be a baby, he's fighting for his right to be a baby. He's fighting for his right to be a baby. Yeah. Obviously, you don't want to deny your own point of view. And you also don't want to be heavy handed. Or is it even conscious when you decide how much of your own stances you're going to let in?

No, let's call a thing what it is, really. In my mind, in writing this season, I feel like everyone on the screen is a Republican. That was sort of what I was going into it with, which was like, I don't want to have a political conversation, but I want to talk about responsibility that we have to each other in a society. This idea of Minnesota nice, which is the comic conceit of the movie Fargo, which is that when people have to be forced to be nice and that all they're going to be is nice, they don't know how to let off steam and they just kind of break at a certain point. The passive aggression of it. But of course, in our modern moment, there's nothing passive going on. And that's why the

season starts with a melee at a school board meetings. Like people have stopped being nice. I sort of want to look at Lorraine 10 years ago, she would have been the villain as the Koch brother capitalist Republican. But then now we have this other thing we call Republican, which is this sort of alt-right gun-toting, Bible-pumping. Yeah, sovereign citizen. I reject everything. And so it's interesting to put those two in conflict because on some level they're on the same side. Yeah. One's only relatively better than the other. Lorraine jokes. She's like, are you here to raise money for the new roof for the orphanage or whatever? And he's like, I'm going to fight the orphans for sport kind of guy.

So neither of them like the orphans, you know, neither of them believe in handouts to people. Yes. But she's saying, all right, but I mean, you just want to be a baby. I feel I have a responsibility to keep civilization intact. And yeah, I'm going to get rich doing it, but I don't think we should all just do what we want all the time. It is, it's this crazy Tiger King by Christianity that is just sort of inherently contradictory, it seems. Fargo says it's a true story, but what is a true story? It's either a story or it's true, right, on some level. And starting in season three, where I really wanted to kind of deconstruct that idea, coincided perfectly with the rise of this alternative facts mindset in America. And I'll never forget watching Newt Gingrich during the 2016 convention saying like, well, crime is up all over the nation.

And the news anchor was like, well, actually it's down. And he's like, well, people feel like it's up. And that's a fact. That's also a fact, right? And that idea that your feelings are facts, just like my facts are facts, it would be funny if it weren't so crazy. And what is that if not Kafka or the Coen brothers? So it's not politics in my mind. It's just you can't not talk about it if you're going to make a Coen brothers movie about that region and crime and sheriffs and all that. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

I think this would be helpful. Talk about mentoring. I think the more we're honest about the kind of struggle, therein lies the actual advice. You have no advice to give when you're talking about how great the show is you wrote in season five. I can't learn much from that. Like, okay, be great. But you've had a ton of setbacks, too.

You've written features that were going that didn't materialize, right? Some big ones. And I wonder, what is your strategy for navigating the many, many heartbreaks that go along? Because if you just have a perfunctory knowledge of you, you're like, oh, everything's been a home run. But in fact, it hasn't. You've probably had as much heartbreak as success. And how do you navigate that? Yeah. I mean, I was going to make a Star Trek movie with Cate Blanchett. Right. I mean, that's-

And Rami Malek. I'm thinking of that. Could have had that. Right. How do you let that go? The best advice I can give you is don't take it personally. Someone doesn't like your script, it's not you. They're not saying they don't like you.

Someone doesn't make your pilot, someone doesn't greenlight your film, or they release your film but they don't promote it, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, yeah, I've had a ton of frustration and setbacks. And when My Generation was canceled, when a show is canceled after its second episode airs and you're still shooting. How's morale on set on that day? It was interesting because I had talked to go back

to Warren Littlefield to him about it. And there is this sense of, so Napoleon on the battlefield, the emperor of France, next day he's on an island, nothing to do. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. To go from being emperor of France to nothing to do, that is a very weird day, right?

Yes, yes. Because your adrenaline, your energy level, the amount of multitasking that you're in the middle of. It's cocaine, let's be honest. And then suddenly to pull that plug and to be home going, well, what am I going to do next? And your identity. Yeah, it can be very disconcerting and undermining of your sense of confidence, your sense of self. What Fargo has afforded me is a sense of arrival and security. You know, even if the Star Trek movie doesn't go or a film I wrote doesn't do well, I'm not in danger of falling back down to

the bottom. Right, right, right. You've internalized that. Yeah. It's less impactful in that way. And I also, as I said, what else can I get away with? I mean, Fox Searchlight made Lucy in the Sky. It didn't do well for them. It's going to exist forever. It's the movie that I wanted it to be. So, ha ha, at the end of the day. I had a friend friend say to me go back to the playground and talk to fifth grade dags and tell him you directed a movie at warner brothers with motorcycles and car chases do you think he's gonna ask what did it do at the box exactly focus on what the fifth grader be like what the fuck really we grew up and do that i've sold two shows to fx neither of them been made i've sold six features to studios only one of them have been made. I've sold six features to studios. Only one of them's been made.

And I think there's an impulse and you finally, because it's impossible to sell something. Then you sell it. And then as you're watching it lose traction, your instinct is to fight harder and figure out how to make that. And certainly there are success stories where people did, they followed it for 10 years to the end

and it was great. But I think the more you can go like, then let's write the next thing. then let's write the next thing. Then let's write the next thing. Yeah, I have two things to say to that. One is, you know, I used to joke that there's a proud tradition in Hollywood of failing up and I want in.

Because it's like, there's worse things than having written the best pilot that didn't get made, right? People know. Or making the best pilot that didn't get picked up to series. It's a ladder. Every step that you climb on,

even if it ends in failure, quote unquote, you're still up a rung. So I think that that is really important. And then I forgot the other thing I was going to say. Right. Yeah. I just think it's easy to get married to stuff. And I think the quicker in this. Oh, well, that's the other thing, which is, I remember a writer said to me once, I just want to have published a book. And I was like, well, that's a past tense goal. You can't want to have done something. It has to be, what am I doing today? And that's always the thing for me is that I love the creative process so much that every

morning I get up and it's like, what am I working on today? What am I thinking about today? And it's so helpful, you know, if you've written a script and you've sent it out and you're waiting on a read, if you can be working on something else, it's so much less stressful. As long as you're engaged in the art, you're always feeling good. Even at the end of the day, if it was a struggle, you didn't get that many pages today, but you were in it. The more you can live in process. Yeah.

Have you befriended Stephen Conrad by chance? I've met him. You guys have a very similar thing happening. The musician, the writing, the directing. He's a funny guy. I like him. Did you see The Patriot? The Patriot? I did, yeah. Whoa, what a funny guy. I like him. Did you see the... Patriot?

The Patriot? I did, yeah. Whoa, what a fucking show. I really liked it. There's a thing that we're thinking about collaborating on, actually. You Zoom with him, it's in a room full of guitars. He's authentic, man. Talk about a low resting heart rate.

You cannot agitate that guy. Yes. It's good to be a calm presence is a good thing. Yeah, it can bring down the temperature all around you. Well, this has been awesome. I'm so glad you squoze us in. We were told you're flying off somewhere. Are you going home?

I was going to fly back today, but ice storms in Texas, they don't know how to de-ice a runway, I don't think. So I'm going to wait till tomorrow, I think, is what I'm going to do. Great, great, great. We'll have a nice lunch. We'll take it easy today. Chill day. Okay, wonderful.

Anyone who's not watching season five of Fargo, you're missing the boat. And I'll add, you do not need to have seen any of the other Fargos. That's how it works. This could be the first season you ever saw. But also go back and watch all the Fargos because they're all amazing. But in any order. Start anywhere. Inevitably, if you watch season five, you will be going back. I rest assured

that'll happen. So awesome to get to meet you. You too. I'm very grateful you're making shit, because it's amusing me to no end. I'll keep going. You keep trying, Legion. I think it'll hook you. My wife and I last night were like, okay. A, we're just maddened with the wait for the next episode.

And yeah, when I was researching you, I was like, we need to give Legion another crack. It's not a two-device show. You kind of got to be in it. It's surreal and comedic in that way. But also, I try to make things that you want to rewatch. And if you can surprise people, if you do something unexpected,

they put down the other device. Because so much that we watch these days, you're on your phone, you're going, well, he's the killer. And you know what I mean? Like mean like you know we're so sophisticated i mean my son's 11 and he games and watches bob's burgers at the same time right he listens to an audiobook and reads a graphic novel at the same time that makes my brain want to explode well you know there's this great book the weirdest people on earth joseph henry and it talks about how physiologically learning to read change the structure of our brain permanently if you're

in the west we've relegated areas of our brains that used to pick up on other things to reading it's abstract and complex and i have to imagine similarly like your son other people i couldn't do that i can't even listen to fucking music and read a book. I can't listen to music and do my research. I got a tunnel vision or I'm out to sea. And I do imagine the structure of the brain is going to keep up with this weird. Yeah, I mean, I talked to a psychiatrist who said ADD is actually the best version of your brain for the modern world. The ability to multitask. There's that great line in that last Ghostbusters movie, overstimulation calms me. And that's my son, right? It's like he goes crazy when there's not

enough stimulation. Now his underwear is all over the place and you got to be able to executive function. But he's actually great at learning quickly, multiple sources coming at him at the same time. And that's the world we live in. Yeah. Okay. Well, Noah, what a pleasure to meet you. I hope I bump into you in Austin, my second favorite place on earth. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Come on down. Do you ever get down there and get in the medicinal waters of Barton Springs? Of course. Oh, I'm there every trip. The polar bear plunge on New Year's Day is... Oh, I should trek down for that. You float there and you're just trying to envision the year, what you're going to do, how's it going to go. And yeah, it's important to have those moments.

I was there in October and I did my first night swim there. I didn't even realize they were open at night. Yeah, 9 p.m. or something like that. What a magical experience that is, nighttime at Barton Springs. It is, yeah. All right, be well. Good luck with everything. Everyone watch Fargo.

Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong hi hi cool sweater thank you it's striped go ahead and say it no i'm not gonna say it this time why i loved when you did that i know i know you want you wanted me to and i just i can't repeat like that okay it is from london london it kind of has a smell right now like um gamey wool no like it got some aromas on it food aroma would you take a sweater like that off when you go to the toilet no if you're at home no okay you wouldn't be nervous that it like it would absorb some smell no no i feel like like I cooked a chicken or something and it got on my hair. Okay.

Were you wearing it last night when you cooked bolognese? No, but it was hanging. Oh. Okay, and you got a new sweater. Oh, my God. Look at this fun sweater. Yes. It's very fun.

It's very cute. It's loud. It's so loud. George saw it and was like, oh, that's for Dax. Oh, that's really funny. I mean, I love it. I love it on you like, oh, that's for Dax. Oh, that's really funny. I mean, I love it. I love it on you. I think you should wear it every day.

Do you think I look cute in it? I do. I really like it. I would never see it. And think that's Dax? Right. I mean, it's very him. It's very him.

But his point was, and I like it, he's like, it's the perfect sweater for you because it's cute and playful. But then you have your sleeves up and there's like some scary tattoos coming out. He's like, it's a fun mix. Because it almost looks like Hello Kitty. Or Mario Brothers. Right. Like, look at the back.

Has, look at those clouds and the mushroom. There's a teddy bear on front and it says Gucci Endorphin. It's an incredible sweater. I would never buy it for myself. It's like one of the craziest out of nowhere gifts. It's beautiful though. Yeah, I really like it. I like playful.

It's fun to get new sweaters. You know, I like my Babar's sweater. Cute, see? Well, I have a story to tell. Oh, okay, great. Since I saw you, since we recorded, I had a middle of the night scare. So I woke up at 3 a.m. and there was a smell in the apartment. Not like the smell that's

currently on my sweater. Okay, not bolognese. A smell that smelled like fire. It was a fire smell. Would you wake up and say, oh Lord, it's a fire? No. Okay up and say oh lord it's a fire no okay remember that video no it's a woman on the news and she's explaining how her house was on fire oh she's like i got up to drink a cold pop walked into the kitchen said oh jesus it's a fire oh i have not heard that yeah she references the lord six or seven times in this story about her house burning down it's pretty great wow well, yeah, I went to the oven. Everything's off. Did you do a candle sweep?

Sweep for candles? Yeah, exactly. Nothing. Then I go back. I close my eyes again, but I still smell it. Something's up. Right. Something's up.

That only stinks. So then I remember I have a heater under the floor with the floor grate. Very traditional California bungalow style. Yes. In these old ass apartments, they don't have central cooling or heating. And often what they offer you is for air conditioning, just a box in the wall. And for heating, a floor. Fire.

Literally. It's just like a pilot light. It's just a fire down there. It heats up a big piece of metal that then radiates heat up. Yeah. Fire. Literally. It's just like a pilot light. It's just a fire down there. It heats up a big piece of metal that then radiates heat up. Yeah. Through the grate. It's so antiquated. I know, but I will say this.

Say what you'll say. Remember when I was living at your house during COVID? Yeah. You were elsewhere and Erin and I were quarantining. Yeah. And it was March, so it was chilly. And I got to use it. Preferable is central heating, obviously.

I do like walking by the source of the heat and being able to feel the heat coming out of there. It's almost like a fireplace. Yeah, but it just feels like. You just gotta frame it right. Well, no, because it feels like it's bad for you. Okay, yeah. Like there's carbon monoxide. Exactly.

That's fair. I realized, oh gosh, it's probably that. It's probably dust or something is getting burnt. But then I remembered a couple weeks before I was doing something in my bathroom. I forget what, like makeup. And I think a cap or something, maybe it was the back of an ear, something small flew off and it went in the grate i thought i was like oh fuck where'd that thing go i don't see it anywhere shit it maybe went down that grate oh well i can't

care about that but then this fire smell is happening and i think oh fuck whatever that was is getting burnt alive yeah so i go and i look and i see there's a hair tie in there and i was like oh it was the hair it was a hair tie that flew off and got in there which is very confusing because the holes are so tiny and it's great how how that happened but okay i'll it's gonna burn it's gonna cause a huge fire i have to get this out this is three in the morning oh boy um how am i gonna get it out i can only imagine what you're actually seeing because i know you have terrible vision in high light with a full night's rest so low light on three hours of sleep you must have just been seeing like looking through a bowl of mayonnaise at everything that is what it felt like because there's two grates and they overlap.

And so it's a magic eye when you're looking like it's like it makes you nauseous, distorts everything. Your eye doesn't know what plane to focus on. Yeah. So but I see this hair tie in there and I got to get it out. And so I'm like scouring the apartment for, I remembered I just got my dry cleaning done. Perfect timing to have those wire hangers. Cause I normally, I don't have wire hangers, but then I remember lady came and she threw them all out. Okay. She knows you, mommy doesn't want those.

Yeah. She knows about that. So I'm looking for another tall apparatus. I don't have anything. And I go into the coat closet and there is one wire hanger hanging a basket from high up. Perfect. I see it. I get a stool. Shocked you saw it, but you did. Me too. Thank God it was a miracle. And I got it down.

I unravel it. I make a tiny, like a little hook to grab it. I go, I'm sticking it in. It's impossible to see. It is so confusing. You're not using a flashlight nor your phone to illuminate into the grate. I have the light on. That's not enough.

As I recall, you have flashlights though. I'm recalling that you do. Actually, Eric got me a flashlight but i don't believe in it i don't think i put it it's like fancy so okay so it's probably not charged yeah okay okay so i put it in i'm trying with like all my might yes to get this hair tie and it will not grab and i realize it's not even moving this hair tie. Right. Do you start considering that it's already been melted to the face of the heating apparatus?

A hundred percent. It melted. It's stuck. Welded. Yeah. And so I'm just trying to scrape it. It won't come up. I can hardly get the thing in and out at this point.

So then I just have to turn off the heat. It's freezing. And then I get the fire extinguisher and I put it by my bed. And you just wish for the best. Yeah. Then the next day in the light of day, it's not a hair tie. It was just a piece of metal, Nope. Part of the heater itself. The total construction of it?

Yep. Oh, no. So you were trying to pry off a piece of metal that was welded to it. Yeah, and it wasn't even an open circle. It was a solid circle. Oh, boy. Yeah. In the harsh light of day.

Yeah. Oh, that's a drag. It was rough. And so I still don't know what the smell was. I think it's just dust accumulates on those things. And then like the dust itself starts burning a bit. That's how it was in my old apartment that had the same heater.

I know, but it was extra. And then I'd have to pull the whole grate off and dust on the inside of it. And then the smell would go away. Well, that was another thing. I couldn't, the grate- Wouldn't come up. Won't come up. There's not even any screws. Ooh, that was another thing. I couldn't, the grate. Wouldn't come up. Won't come up.

There's not even any screws. Oof. That's really bad. I want to inspect this thing. I now see this as a challenge for myself to get that grate up. Oh, okay. I don't care if I've got to break apart the hardwood floor or the pry bar. Oh, okay.

It's coming up. Gotta dust. You gotta dust. Gotta dust. Anyway, so that was a bad evening. Yeah, that's a bummer. It's just, it felt very- Did you have a hard time falling back asleep?

I felt very Fargo. I felt like her. You did. You felt like Dot, Dorothy. I felt like Dot, Dorothy, who's also home alone. Yeah, home alone, Dorothy Lyon. And I felt like her, but then to no avail. Oh, that's frustrating.

Yeah. Okay, your yesterday, I know you want to talk about. This was a big day for you. What part? Well. My hike? No. Oh.

What happened on your hike? Oh, my goodness. The most important thing that, well, the Lyons loss was absolutely soul crushing. That's what I'm talking about. I don't want to talk about it quite yet. Oh, you care that much that fast. Yes, because I have loved sporting teams and lost. I know what that feels like.

I've been rooting for the Lakers and they lose. I've been rooting for the Pistons and they've lost. This was such an emotional event for Detroit. We have not been to the Super Bowl since 57. Right. That's 67 years. The team has been a laughingstock for 67 years. The city needed it so much.

If the 49ers lose, San Francisco is still one of the coolest cities in the country and they got fucking Silicon Valley and whatever. You know, like, they're not struggling. Detroit has had a rough go. Sure, that's true.

This is, like, I wanted it so bad for the people in Detroit. I see that. I was looking at all their, there was quite a few Detroit fans in that audience.

Like, a shot in native and was like, God, I can't believe how many people are from Detroit. And I'm like, yeah,

people have gone into debt to go to this game. Yeah. Because they want to see the Lions come back. Yeah. So really, I just was heartbroken. And it'd been one thing if it started and they just weren't as good as the 49ers the whole time and they lost. I even think that's one version that would have been sad.

But this was, they had it. It was their game. All they had to do is kick this fucking field goal to go up by 17 points. Instead, they decide on a fourth down to run it and try to get seven points instead of three. And they didn't get it. The 49ers got the ball on like the 20-yard line at that point.

And then they, is that how it worked? No, it couldn't work that way. Point is, that changed everything. They got greedy and they didn't take the three points and then they completely collapsed mentally all of a sudden three four passes in a row that were right in the person's chest and hands got dropped there's a fumble it just collapsed like to watch the mental collapse and it was interesting because there are a lot of rookies on the team that are really good. And so the first half of the broadcast when they're destroying is all about how great these rookies are, how energized they are, what a gift to the team is. But then you see the flip

side of the coin on rookies, which is like mentally, they haven't been there a bunch of times. They could not get back on track. And you just watch this wonderful thing get squandered for the last two quarters. Now for the upside of my day, I only hike with people. That's not true. I sometimes hike by myself. I mostly hike with people and I have not gone to the tippity top of Griffith by myself. So I usually go to the observatory and then beyond that, all told it's six-mile hike. And I decided yesterday, I went on a hike, and I was like, oh, I'm by myself. I can go as fast as I can humanly go. I'm going to time myself and see how quick I can do this. Okay.

It normally takes two and a half hours to do the six miles. So I left at 11.33 a.m. At 11.53, I was standing at the observatory. I was like, ooh, I got to the top of the observatory in 20 minutes. That was boogieing.m. at 1153. I was standing at the observatory. I was like, Oh, I got to the top of the observatory 20 minutes. That's what that was boogieing. Yeah. Then I got to the very pinnacle. It had taken me 45 minutes and then it only took me 40 minutes to come down. So I did the entire thing in an hour and 25 minutes, which is normally two and a half hours. It's the hardest I've ever worked out in my life. Coming down the last two thirds after I'd like exerted myself and I was jogging down

a lot of it at the end, I went out to lunch. I was like, had such a runner's high or something. I started fantasizing about my next tattoo and how I want it to look and where I'm going to place it. What are you? I got a hunch it's going to anger you somehow. Oh boy. What is it?

What is it? I'm going to get J2C. That's cute. Thank you. It's also hilarious because it's Capricorn. Your chart is, you're moving up. You don't want to acknowledge it. Well, it's Capricorn and Cancer.

Oh, right. But it's astrology, I'm saying. You're now tattooing astrology to your body. So your percentage, you can't deny it. You also brought it up in an interview today. You're at 34. That may or may not be true. I'll accept that.

But obviously it's not a tattoo about my astrological sign. It's an Aaron tattoo. I have a bazillion tattoos and I don't have any for Aaron. This longest lasting friendship I've ever had. Yeah. And I very much want. And for people who don't know, I know everyone already knows, but Aaron and I are the very

most exclusive club in the world, which is J2C. January 2nd, Capricorn. July 2nd, Cancer. J2C is very exclusive. Oh my God. So exclusive. I mean, I can't imagine a more exclusive club. Yes, I can.

A24, A24. How convenient. That's cool. A24V. Okay, A24V. That's me and Dave Chappelle. Try to join that club. The problem with that club is what makes ours cool is we're six months apart, yet we have the same J-2-C.

Oh, my God. And we're different signs. Dave Chappelle and I are so many years apart. No, I mean. Whatever. My club's so cool. Okay, go. The point is I was really getting creative, and I'm like, I want the inside of the J to be the blue crow feathers. I want the 2 to be mammal fur.

I don't know whether that's leopard or chimp or cheetah or something. And then I want the C to be scales of a beautiful fish. Oh, fish. Okay, good. Can you just please stop? So be scales of a beautiful fish. Oh, fish. Okay, good. Can you just please stop? So birds, mammals, and fish. Don't make it a snake. No, there's not going to be any snakes.

I guess you're right. People do get snake skin. And scales. But fish scales look really pretty in tattoos. Iridescent. Feathers and scales are like the prettiest things in tattoos. That's why they're so present on people. People have a lot of fish. But at any rate the point of all that is and i really got distracted with

the placement like do i want it on the right side of my neck you're gonna do on your neck just below my adam's apple and then on this side do i want it on my left pec my right pick and then in my sternum do i want it along my hip my so i'm just like playing with all the many different placements of it. And then I realize, oh, you're timing yourself to make this quick. Like at this point I've stopped jogging and I'm just fantasizing about this tattoo that I totally forgot my mission at one point for like three or four minutes and then commenced running. But I was tore up. It felt so great to push myself that hard i was so proud of averaging almost five miles an hour through the whole thing so physically was like uh my biggest physical challenge i think to date was yesterday and i'm 49 yeah that's cool yeah um your back has

a tattoo right yeah yeah i just forgot about it yeah but i forget about it too i can't imagine it for some reason you want to see yeah it's so weird because i can't either it's funny you bring this up because when i was thinking about the placement i was like oh something on my back i'm like i literally was like oh god i have one on my back that i i haven't seen in 20 years but it's makes more sense that you yeah yeah up top uptivity it's a good size tattoo to forget about. I guess I would understand that you would forget. People don't look at their backs a lot. Especially in the back of their neck is even probably the hardest spot to see.

But we're all in saunas and bathing suits and stuff all the time, and I forgot. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah. It's kind of sad. I don't think I would forget if you had huge fly tattoos. It's not sad. I mean, no, the reason I said that because I don't think you should get a tattoo on your front.

Okay. Too much? I just, it's a clean area. I feel you. I know what you're saying. But think about on Beckham. Is there any of them that you don't like? I don't even, I can't, I don't know.

You're not sure. But listen, I was going to say that out loud. Yeah. And then I thought, I think he has one on his back. I can't even remember or know. Right, right. So then maybe the same thing would happen on the front. Listen, I understand why you're saying it.

And I have a similar inclination, which is I like my tattoos more because there is so much blank space without them. They actually make me appreciate and notice. So I agree with you. I like having big swaths of like, no, no, they don't exist there. Yeah. Why don't you get it on your like wrist or something?

I've already taken out my wrist. Oh, I thought about my hand too. I kind of want it on the- Oh, that's nice. This was another location I was considering a lot. Your palm? No, they don't really work there. Has anyone ever done that?

People get it, but they get worn off. Oh, yeah. Yeah. In fact, I was warned that this one on my knuckle wouldn't stick around. Why don't you get it here on your other arm? Because again, I like that this arm's kind of blank and this one's full. I don't want two sleeves. Then just add it to that big sleeve.

Yeah, but I don't know. No, no, no. I knew that this was not going to. I don't think though you, if I had pitched you this, I don't think you think you would have liked this. Be honest. You already had. You already had something. I think here. But like have liked this. Be honest. You already had something. Something. I had to hear.

But like all of this. I mean, yeah, sleeves scare me, I will say. Yeah, you would have said don't get a sleeve. I know, but I- But now that I have one, you don't mind it, right? Well, now you already have it. Too late. So you might, I guess, keep going there, but don't start on a new location.

Okay, so then you finish your hike yeah yeah yeah i finished my hike and um i had a personal record for the plunge it was a day of personal records and i was delighted because i'm 49 it excites me so much that you're in the best ship of your life yeah i think i did it is the fastest I could have ever done it in my 49 years. And I'm very proud of myself for that. You should be. That's great. Yeah. I love that.

Oh, is Aaron going to get the tattoo also? Well, so I'm not going to tell him. I'm just going to get it. And then I'm going to see if he wants to get one too. He has tattoos, right? He just has one. Oh. He got one when we were all young and we were all getting them and then he stopped and i kind of like that about him because he was living in a world he was riding with a bunch of different biker gangs and owned a bar in downtown nigeria

and for whatever reason he didn't which i think is cool of him what is his do you know his initials amw right here aaron Matthew. Michael Weakley. Okay. Michael Weakley. I told him he put the strong in Weakley. Oh. Since 1975, putting the strong in Weakley. Huh.

That's, okay, because Callie, Callie has her name, too. Well, she has watch, her last name. Oh, that's cute. Is it in the shape of a watch or anything? It's not, but it's on her wrist. Where a watch would go. Yeah. Yeah. I have a ding, ding, ding.

Okay. What is it? San Francisco, 49ers, went to the Super Bowl. Noah Hawley, he went to, he lived in San Francisco. Oh, he lived in San Francisco. And he was saying San Francisco is the only place you get shamed for success there. But I thought it was funny because we had Billy Joe on who said the exact same thing. Right.

Also about San Francisco. Yeah, yeah. We have two people who have now attested to that. Yeah. It's interesting. It is interesting. It's the culture there. Yeah.

That's how Scandinavia is too. I know. Yeah. It's so interesting. Yeah. Anyway, but yeah. I think Minnesota is that way too because of the Scandinavian-ness. Like Peter was telling me they didn't know what to do when the Vikings went to the Super Bowl.

Like they knew they were supposed to have a parade, but it kind of went against everything they believe in. Like they don't believe in a big, really celebrating people and raising people up too high. Right. So they're in a tricky situation. Huh. That's also a ding, ding, ding, Minnesota nice. It is. Fargo.

Is it the first episode with the gas station? Yes, it is the first episode. That has the gas station set piece. Yes. The diaper astronaut, her name is Lisa Nowak. And if people don't remember, I certainly didn't until I was reading about it. And then I did recall it a little bit. But this astronaut wanted to go see her ex-boyfriend.

a little bit but this astronaut wanted to go see her ex-boyfriend and she drove straight through from the midwest or east coast all the way to the west coast and wore diapers so she could go into the bathroom in her diapers and not stop to go to the bathroom yeah 14 hour cross-country drive she's also the first astronaut ever to be arrested. That's shocking, because those 60s astronauts were wild guys. She wanted to confront the new flame of her former lover. Yeah, and the way the story broke when it happened was very tabloid foddery. Yeah. That was the whole thing. He wanted to sort of give her some dignity back.

Also, like, revenge is a dish best served cold. You already know my stance on diapers. So to me, I was like, this person's a genius. Yeah, but also just like maybe don't like try to take your anger down in life. Because this could be you. This could be me? No, no. Anybody. Yeah, cautionary tale when this could be you. This could be me? No, no. Anybody.

Yeah, cautionary tale when revenge is driving you. Did she want revenge? Well, she wanted to confront the lover of a heck. I mean, that's all very, yeah. Revengey? Yeah, vengeful. Vengeful. Anywho, so just try not to do that.

Yeah. Inaction is often the best action one can take. A.A., pause when agitated. P.W.A. Pause when agitated. one can take. It is. Hey, pause when agitated. PWA. Pause when agitated. That's good. It's really good. This was in 2007 also. Her diaper drive? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

You missed an opportunity to call the movie Diaper Drive. That's true. Yeah. It was from Houston. She had a steel mallet, a BB gun, a four-inch knife, and large trash bags. Oh, boy. Making her a diaper astronaut is silly. She was

not well. Yeah. Mentally, and then was gonna try to go kill someone, it seems. Well, from the tools that were brought. Or build her an ADU. What about the trash bags that's to put all the scrap lumber or take out the mess when you're building

that ADU additional dwelling unit if you don't live in California yeah ADUs are very common here very popular you have some guest house we'd call them in the rest of the country you have two ADUs on this property.

I guess you could say that. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to think of a garage as an ADU, but it certainly is. Okay, Fox Search Lab, that's a program he did. It started in 2001. It was still going in 2012.

That's what I'm pulling up here as the last update. Maybe when it ended? My guess is it ended in 2012 or 2013. Yeah. Fox Searchlight was the very first place to ever buy a script from me. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, the one I was sued over. Right.

Yeah. Okay, now the pivot. Okay. Sexual abuse. Yeah. I. Now the pivot. Okay. Sexual abuse. Yeah. I looked up some stats. Again, it's so hard. These incest stats.

Oh, right. Because his mom wrote about, yeah. They're so hard because so much isn't reported. Like it's like the most they think. Under. Under reported. they think, like underreported. But according to rain.org,

child sexual abuse is an underreported crime, making it difficult to know its true impact. Many survivors wait to report child sexual abuse, particularly when it has been committed by a family member or never reported at all. Although statistics vary, research suggests of sexual abuse victims that come to law enforcement's attention, more than a quarter are victimized by a family member, while 60% are abused by someone else in their social network. The majority of juvenile victims know the perpetrator, and approximately 34% of perpetrators in cases of child sexual abuse are family members.

Oh, man. This is really upsetting. upsetting yeah that's rough it's weird to have gratitude like a deep gratitude that a neighbor molested me like if it were my uncle or something oh my god i just feel like it would make it that much harder to report too impossible well i didn't even report the neighbor so yeah I would have never reported my uncle. And then if you imagine whatever things I immediately inherited about the world being a dangerous place, I didn't also have to acknowledge that people I love and trust will hurt me. I mean, that feels like an even, I just was like, the whole outside world is dangerous

and I don't trust anyone in the outside world. But I still had my family. And to have that stolen from you as well is downright catastrophic. And I feel terrible for anyone who's had that. Yeah. And I think it's, again, not I think. That's what we're learning. It's so much more common than we think.

So much stuff's more common. I think it That's what we're learning. It's so much more common than we think. So much stuff's more common. I think it was body keeps score. I say it in here a lot, and I get the stats. I'm sure at this point I'm way off. But I want to say it was that 25% of couples have physical violence in the relationship. It was like a staggering number where you're like, well, fuck, man. That means I know several couples that are physically violent towards each other. Yeah. Well, ding, ding, man. That means I know several couples that are physically violent towards each other. Yeah.

Well, ding, ding, ding. Scary ding, ding, ding. Duck, duck, goose. Yeah, so duck, duck, goose. Let's label it a duck, duck, goose. Because I hung out with your children yesterday. Uh-huh. Did you beat them?

I did not abuse them. But we went on a shopping spree. Uh-huh. Fun auntie Montyty it was really fun delta was all decked out in her new outfit you got her today and she had to stop right before she entered school and she was like lincoln can you make my pants tighter and then lincoln got in there and used a little stretchy thing and she like got her all sewn up and i was like look at this good big sister yeah they're such a good little pair. I mean, I know it's different when they're with

their parents, of course, but yeah, they're a good duo. They weren't fighting or anything like that. They're a great dynamic because they have completely different skill sets. Yeah. And together they make a really competent little duo. Yeah. So we went to Target and then we went to Zara. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was really, really sweet and fun. The problem was the upstairs of Zara, the air conditioning was out. It was so hot. Oh, boy.

It was so hot. Wow. I normally, I don't feel that. Yeah, you don't get hot. I don't get hot. And so it was feeling like a little panicky. Scary, yeah. Soul cycle.

A little bit because I don't really feel that feeling. And I was like, oh my God, I can't really breathe in here. Right. Overheating. Yeah. And then, yeah, the- Well, the poor staff. Yeah, exactly.

I was talking to them and they were like, oh my God, it's been like this for 48 hours. Like, ugh. But anyway, yeah, so that was a fun little girls trip. They had a blast. Good. I'm glad. We decided, because it was for Christmas that it got delayed and delayed, but then we thought maybe that's a fun time for us to do it.

Better deals. Better deals. Post-Christmas, oh, these are slashing prices. Everything must go. And then you've already got your Christmas presents, so you know you already have stuff. You fill in the holes. Yep. What didn't you get?

It is the cool move. Yeah. So I think that might be the new plan. The new protocol. Let's see what else I have. He just said a lot of really wonderful things. He said, well, we sort of just talked about it with a diaper astronaut, but tabloid stories rob people of their dignity. I thought that was a really

interesting way of phrasing it. I had never heard it like that. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. I was in this tricky situation and I generally don't, you know, I have a policy not to really shit on anyone's projects in this business we're in because I know how hard it is but my girls got turned on to this kid dance show okay like a reality show okay and they were watching it and I was like god I don't like this show and I don't like they're watching it was like dance moms and it was like, God, I don't like this show. And I don't like they're watching. It was like dance moms. And it was like pitting the moms against the teacher. And then the teacher had them come out in like crazy sexy clothes for seven-year-olds and gyrating the hips. And some of these parents were uncomfortable. And then the teacher was a bit nuts and was telling them,

it was nuts. And it was just just kind of a trash fest, right? And I was like, how am I going to approach this? So it ended. They watched a few episodes. I didn't stop them. And I said, what do you think of that show? And they're like, it's entertaining or whatever. And I said, something about that show

makes me feel protective of the people on it. And I think they're being exploited. I don't think anyone on that show shined. And I think the producers knew that they were doing it. And I think it was really manipulative. And I think it just preyed upon some desperate people who maybe needed a little bit of money and were willing to do a show with their children. And they were both like, yeah, you're right. Everyone seemed bad.

Yeah. And I was delighted. And then they stopped watching it. Yeah. I mean, I think it's good to teach kids about exploitation. Yeah. It's not something I think. It's not obvious.

Yeah, it's not obvious. And in fact, while it was irritating me for the first two episodes it was on in the background, I wasn't even quite clear about why I hated my kids watching this show. But I was like, this is tabloids. This is like pointing at the bearded lady or the monkey man. You know, it's just like if you make assholes out of rich, privileged people, I don't mind. Like, I don't watch any of the housewife shows, but I think it gets pretty catty and gnarly. But I'm like, yeah, these are all like rich people that didn't need the money. But I'm like, yeah, these are all like rich people that didn't need the money.

If they want to be on display doing this, like I don't feel like anyone's being victimized or preyed upon. There's no desperation there. So it doesn't bother me. But there is certain like just combing a trailer park. There could be desperation in another way, though. For sure. And there probably is. Yeah. But I guess, you know, that one doesn't bother me as much.

Yeah. is yeah but i guess you know that one doesn't bother me as much yeah it's like single moms trying to scrape by and can get free dance lessons if they let their kid be filmed that seems pretty fucking gross yeah oh uh we talked about the sarah lawrence documentary and then we said it's not fair to call it that yeah not fair to sarah lawrence but also not fair to bill lawrence bill lawrence for people who don't know is a big showrunner out here in Hollywood. Created Scrubs. Created Scrubs, created Cougar Town. He's an exec producer on Ted Lasso, I noticed.

Another big hit for him. I was very delighted. He happens to be one of the nicest guys I've ever met in show business. He seems so cool. Yeah, he's a very, very nice guy. ever met in show business. He seems so cool. Yeah. He's a very, very nice guy. There's also like all these stories about he kept seasons of shows going far longer than he wanted to, just so that everyone could keep getting paid. Yeah. He's a good, good guy. Yeah. But yeah, he's of the Sarah Lawrence family. He has a great grandparent started or something.

Family tree. Family tree, Henry Louis Gates, Jacques-Marie mage jacques marie mage jacques marie mage the glasses oh okay that is i don't know that i'm ever gonna know the name of those glasses jacques marie mage he has three french words in a row okay well well guess what happened? Did you get a pair? Jacques-Marie Raj. I got a pair. What's the acronym for it? J-M... J-M-M. J-M-M. Can we call them those? No, we gotta call them Jacques-Marie Maj. They're so fancy and that they deserve it. Where are they? I would

like to evaluate them. I wore them yesterday. Oh, yeah? You saw them for a second. Okay. You love them. Oh, they are here. Yeah, they're here. Oh, gosh. I have to tell you, I'm a little worried. Why? That when I put these on, you need to have a positive reaction, okay? Well, do we want to enter a phase of our friendship where you don't know if I'm telling you the truth or not?

Well, I... You had one bad experience. I know, but... And I think that should buy you confirmation that all the other positive ones, which they've all been positive besides this, were truthful. That's fine. But I own these. It's done. Yes.

But you were wearing my glasses. You weren't wearing a pair you had picked out. I know. That's fine. It's fine. But it was a strong reaction. It was a strong reaction. I just said those aren't for you.

Yeah. Those are not good for you. Yeah. Yeah, you did. You did say that. But it was, it felt mean. Oh my goodness. So these are my actual.

What's it called? What if I don't like something? I told you, we already talked about this. Well, this I own. It's too late. You can just be like, great. Oh no. But now you're going to say.

So great is. Great is. Great is. I hate it. It's too late. You can just be like, great. Oh, no. But now you're going to say. So great is. Great is. Great is. I hate it. Is a push. Again, if it's just like we're at a store and we're trying stuff on, you don't love it. Right. I'll say, oh, I prefer that other pair.

That's how I would handle that. OK. I prefer that other pair. It looks a little wide for your face. OK. Right. Right. It looks.

Remember that? Right. Yeah. It's a little. The blue is a little dark on your skin. Yeah. OK. Yeah. OK. Great. The man helped. And we tried on a bunch of stuff. And Liz was there. It looks, remember that? The blue is a little dark on your skin. The man helped and we tried on a bunch of stuff and Liz was there and I like them. So I feel good about it.

But these are my, and they're very limited. Like my sweater? They're very cool right now before they're even on your face. I love the deep ledge on the top of them. Me too. Yeah, it's really cool. They only make, I think like 300 and something of each silhouette of combination like yeah they have a certain amount of each it's engraved i don't see where of like what number this is but then they stopped making it after that

let me take my headphones off limited edition collector's item. Those look awesome. Do you like them? Yeah, they're awesome. Do you like them, Rob? Yeah, they look great. They look great. It's a trigger word now. Oh, no, those are super cool. I like them a lot. And you know I'm sincere because I'll tell you if they don't look good.

You'll say, it's a little wide for your face. Yeah, it's wide for your face. I love them. They're great. They're beautiful. They only sell them in Los Angeles right now. Oh, my gosh. I know.

They gave you all the top buzzwords. It was a no-brainer. They had you salvating. Yeah, I had a fun shopping day on Saturday and Sunday with the girls. But on Saturday, I got my glasses. You and Liz made some moves? Yeah, we went to this fancy store. Atelier.

Sort of an atelier. We went to a fancy store. I'm not going to say the name of it because I think on Synced we'll probably talk about something that happened there. Okay. I don't want to. A Pretty Woman episode? Sort of. TBD.

Not TBD. Easter egg. All right. Well, that is it for Noah, and that's it for Fargo Week. Sort of. TBD. Not TBD, Easter egg. All right. Well, that is it for Noah and that's it for Fargo Week. Fun week. I'm so glad we did that. Me too. So fun. I hope people are watching. Yes, me too. All right. Love you. Love you.