Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Nurture vs Nurture: Family #12: Denise & Ryan

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

Dr. Mogel speaks with family #12: Denise and Ryan and answers the question: Will our children hate us if we disagree about how to raise them? She also teaches us a new concept: Jimi Halloween. Make sure to subscribe to weekly episodes, dropping every Tuesday only on the Nurture vs Nurture feed. Just search “Nurture vs Nurture” on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Or visit bit.ly/wendymogel. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, arm cherries. We just wanted to say that this episode of Nurture vs. Nurture is on our feed today because it's back season two. Woohoo! Yahoo! But future episodes will be on the feed for Nurture vs. Nurture. So if you want to continue listening to the rest of the season, which is spectacular, please head over to Nurture vs. Nurture and subscribe and do other things. Testimonials. Great reviews. Right, positive reviews. But until then, please enjoy this first episode of season two

for Nurture vs. Nurture. Welcome, beloved nurturers. Today, we're going to California to meet Denise and Ryan, a homemaker and a pipeline inspector who started their family when they were teenagers. Their kids are now 14 and 9, and they proudly wave a family flag of humor. Mom and dad's chronic sore spot? Not being teen parents, not financial issues, but how to parent when their philosophies differ. If Denise came home with a C, her sweet dad said, it's okay, you're still good, you still passed.

If Ryan got in trouble for skateboarding instead of studying, he got a tough punishment along with a reminder that boys don't cry. Denise and Ryan's straight-A student son just came home with an F in geometry. Mom blames herself. Dad blames his son's laziness. During our conversation, we came up with a context for Ryan's dilemma, and Denise adopts a catchphrase. That's all it took. Today's new words teach us how Japanese

youth challenged themselves on Halloween and about an ancient use of the tambourine. First, a disclaimer. What you are about to listen to is not a professional counseling session. Each episode is a one-time conversation and the advice I offer does not constitute psychological treatment or serve as a substitute for professional diagnosis, intervention, or behavioral health care. In order to protect their privacy, our guests have been given pseudonyms and some personal details have been changed. If you have concerns about your child's well-being or your own, seek out guidance from a medical or mental health professional. Good places to start? Your child's pediatrician, the counseling

staff at your child's school, and the American Psychological Association's comprehensive guide to finding resources in your state. And now, on to the fun. We got this. One day we'll look back and laugh, but in the meantime, we got this. We got this. We got this. In the meantime, we got this. We got this. We got this. We got this.

Good morning. Hi, Ryan. Good morning. Good morning, Michelle. Thank you both for joining me this morning. Thank you. Here's what I know. You have a son, Anthony, who is 14, and Taylor is 9. She's in third grade. He is in ninth grade. And you met and got together when you were teenagers. Anthony was born when you were 17, Denise, and Ryan, you were 19.

Correct. Yes, correct. And the big issue that comes up between you, it sounds pretty consistently, the two things that jumped out to me are, one, you're very different philosophies of parenting. And two, everybody in the family loves humor and you have comedy nights in your house. So let's start with your perception of the problem in your different philosophies. And you described it so beautifully in your application, but I'd like to hear you describe it again. Okay. So I guess the difference is, I think it's called a parenting with consciousness or

something. I'm not sure exactly what it's called, but I'm more the gentle parent. I'm just not so hard and stubborn and stick to one thing and consequences. And I'm very easygoing. I think the way I was raised was very laxed. It wasn't a very strict household at all. And I feel like I am kind of going that route as well. But the biggest bump and difference is that my husband is completely opposite. That's why you picked him, but we will get to that. It was a smart move. Yeah, he was raised in a way more strict household. It was night and day. So this is where we're at. Obviously, being teen parents, that's another can of worms that was added to our mix. But that's just been our biggest struggle is just overcoming our differences in parenting styles. They're night and day different. And we're trying to just meet somewhere in the middle. And we haven't found

that yet. We haven't been able to just get that middle ground. Ryan, describe. I think she's pretty spot on. I mean, there's quite a bit of differences of, I guess, our parenting techniques. I do see it even from my parents and then my in-laws, obviously. So it is kind of a constant struggle between us. I do believe in having a lot of structure and responsibility just for the future values that my kids will have once we aren't around. Whoa. Okay. So we already have you gone here. Once you're not around, finish your thought, please. The future values. I guess I just, I'm always trying to think a bit forward for them. I was brought up learning how to be responsible at an early age and not always having to rely on somebody and being able to have some sort of

independency. So I try to implement that with my kids. And I know sometimes my wife likes to be a bit more lax. And it's not to say that I don't believe I'm super strict all the time. I do have some moments where I feel like I am lax and I give them time or I guess moments to come back to do a chore or something like that. But I feel like it should be done in a quicker manner. Quicker. Okay, let's get to it. Let's do it in a quicker manner. What is all this mushy stuff going on? Yeah. How are they doing? Tell me. Do you have a parent-teacher conference or Anthony's in ninth grade now on

his report card, they put a little sentence in that they pick from a whole set of sentences. What are they saying about Anthony? About him, it's always been consistent. He's a little genius. Oh, excuse me. He is? Uh-huh. What sort of genius? Well, he's very creative. He got diagnosed with ADHD in the third grade. That's creativity. Yes. And he's an awesome writer. He's a super reader. His grades were doing amazing.

Up until COVID hit, he got way more lazy. He was at home, different environment. I have to interrupt you just to cheer for Anthony for a minute. The boys had a really hard time with virtual school. So we can call it lazy or we can see that this brilliant child's neurons were not firing the way they were when he's in the classroom with the energy of the classroom, the excitement he has about learning. And so they felt isolated. They felt discouraged. They started spending a lot more time playing video games. Parents got aggravated with them. And we saw the boys slip a little bit. So he's back in full-time in-person

school. He is back full-time, but he hasn't caught up yet. He just failed geometry. He's never had an F ever. Yeah. So he just failed his first class. But I also feel like that was my fault. I took the blame for that because I wasn't as on top of him as I used to be because my husband would always tell me like, you can't hold his hand for the rest of his life. You have to let him go and let him learn on his own. And you can't sit there and be the rest of his life. You have to let him go and let him learn on his own. And you can't sit there and be right next to him on top of his schoolwork with him. And so I kind of took a backseat a little bit and I let him fail, which really hurt him. He cried when the report cards came out.

Good. Yeah. So I felt like as much as that hurt me, I do feel like he needed that. He has the inattentive type, so he's always in daydreaming and it's hard for him to stay focused on the task. But video games, I mean, he'll focus on that all day. Yeah. And I want to say one thing about ADHD or just ADD. It is a combination of difficulty focusing on things that are dull or too difficult and hyper-focus on the things that these children and adults love. And it's tricky with a kind of conventional

school curriculum, which most school curricula are. And once something comes in, like geometry, perfect example, sometimes it's algebra two. These kids, where things have come so easily to them, well, sweetheart, at least you didn't fail. This is fine. Don't be upset. Go outside and play. You didn't quite say that. And this is an opportunity for you to mature as a stakeholder. And I'm really specifically choosing that word because I don't

want you to sit on top of him, and I don't want you to shame him, but you and the brilliant Anthony get to grow up right now about accountability. And this is where you and Ryan really get to balance each other because as your children become teenagers and become more emotional and in some ways more reckless and careless and sloppy and rude, this is going to be a chance for Ryan to figure out how to do a kind of ballet. to figure out how to do a kind of ballet, and I'm using that word really intentionally, that I'll bet nobody in his house did with him when he was growing up. It's an exciting pivot point, that F that he got. I'm happy about it. He's not. Nobody else is. And Ryan, I go back to what you said about their future. What kind of values are we raising them with? Talk to me, either or both of you, about Taylor and how she is adjusting, what the teachers are saying about her.

I wanted to add really quick before we jump to Taylor. So Anthony is also in theater, and he thrives in that environment. He surprised us because we went to two of his plays already. The script to memorize all that, it comes easy to him, which we were both surprised, Ryan and I, because we were like, where is all this when it comes to the harder stuff? But anything that is creative, artsy, he is so good in that environment. It surprised us that he took off with these scripts that were, I was nervous for him because I'm like, he has so many lines he's going to forget.

Not once did he mess up. He did such an amazing job. So yeah, I just wanted to add that. I want to stay with that again for a moment. Any music, does he sing? Does he dance? Does he play an instrument? He plays the guitar.

The guitar. The guitar. Either of you play an instrument or like to sing or like to dance. So Denise is shaking her head. No, Ryan is not shaking his head. Karaoke. I'll take anything here. Ryan, do you love music?

I'm obsessed with music. I love music. I mean, I think all of us in do you love music? Oh, I'm obsessed with music. I love music. I mean, I think all of us in this household love music. I think my horizons with music is vast. I love classical, reggae, underground hip-hop, metal, everything. I love it all. And I think more of my son right now is definitely taking to the musical like that I have. My daughter loves music as well, but she's just like any other young little girl.

She's very into the pop scene music, which there's no issue with that. My son loves playing the guitar right now. He's thriving with that. It's surprised me how good he's doing with it. He's doing awesome with it. Yeah, it's nice to see. And this is particularly precious and beautiful as he becomes a teenager. Middle school, the first two years of high school, and then if there's college pressure the last two years of high school, you're in for the really challenging stretch here to share music with your son. For the two of you to have this piece, and the way you described your love of music from classical to, did you call it underground hip-hop, underground rap?

Yeah. range with this boy who is creative, a performer, astonished his mother by the number of lines he was able to memorize and present. Was it a musical, the play that he was in? Yeah, so he's done two. He's done Annie, which that's the one he had the most lines in. And he sung too in that one, which was funny because we've never heard him sing before. And then he did Trap. It's kind of like a documentary type was funny because we've never heard him sing before. And then he did Trap. It's kind of like a documentary type of play. I've never heard of it before, but they actually, the school just got nominated for Best Play in the County. Whoa.

Yeah. So next month they're doing this award thing. Hopefully they win. But he just, I mean, him and the theater kids, they're vibing and thriving. So the theater kids are, and this is so valuable, and it can happen in sports. The difference with sports is you win or you lose the game. And you do have your team, and it's a wonderful brotherhood or sisterhood. But in theater, But in theater, kids who often feel like we don't fit in a super conventional pecking order of status and glory, they have so much joy with each other.

And there's a tremendous amount of hanging out in theater. It's a little different than sitting on the bench in sports because you're there with your people and it's relaxed. So, at the same time, he needs to do his geometry homework. And this is an interesting role for you, Denise, to help guide him without sitting on top of him. Is this very confident about talking to people, all young person? Is he willing to talk to his teacher to get some support with the geometry concepts that are not quite making it through right now? So I have asked him many times to ask for help. They have after school tutoring. I don't know what it is about it. He just doesn't feel comfortable. He likes his teacher. He said his teacher is not strict or anything, but he doesn't ask for help. I think it's hard for him to accept the fact that he's not a little genius in geometry. He's a little genius in

everything else, but he struggles with math. And it's been something that he struggled with since he was young. And ironically, Taylor is the exact same way. They are both super readers. They love writing. They love literature. But when it comes to math, they struggle hard. So I think it's more of a shame, maybe, or an embarrassment. I'm not sure what it is. He just will not ask for help when it comes to geometry. But he does cry and gets emotional when he gets that F or he fails a test. But I'm like, there's so much help and resources out there. Take advantage of them. But I'm not sure why he doesn't do that. What is your theory, Ryan?

I guess just to be right to the point, I think he's just lazy when it comes to geometry. I think obviously it's human nature. We all want to take the road less traveled. And with him, he doesn't like math. I guess if he doesn't get the answer or the equation right away, I think a part of the emotion that he shows for crying is not that he got the F, it's the consequence. Video games are going to get taken away. Something's going to become more strict with his parents as in less TV or whatever it may be.

I think that's where the emotion comes from. There's been plenty of times we've seen a report card and he's just like, oh, yeah, like, I guess I must have forgot a couple assignments. He's writing a good script. My grades slip. He will definitely come up with quite a bit of excuses. And I've told him plenty of times, I don't care to hear an excuse to add, I guess, on top of the math thing. I've told them

plenty of times before. Me as a kid in school, I did really good up until a point where I felt like I just didn't care about school anymore. So I did enough just to get by, but I had my dad and my mom always on my case about school, but I did just enough to graduate. Me now as an adult, knowing that part, if I would have been a bit more concentrated in school, it would have been a lot better for me. But just pure laziness, not wanting to do anything. I was big into skateboarding at his age. That's all I ever wanted to do. Oh, does he skateboard? No. He doesn't have an athletic bone in his body, skateboard? No. He doesn't have an athletic bone in his body, which I think is another struggle with Ryan because he is all about sports. He is obsessed with sports just as much as he's obsessed

with music. And our son does not hold that interest with sports at all. Des Taylor? Not with sports. No, she's more artsy. Same. I feel like they're twins just five years apart. Yeah. They're the same people. So I want you to add the word yet is the opposite of what you want to have some independence. And so we do not know where this is going. He may skateboard. He may find a sport very different than the sports that you played as a child, Ryan. The approach to the math of he's lazy, he's not applying himself. Look at all those lines he memorized.

Look at all the song lyrics he knows. Look at how he's playing the guitar. This is a person so overflowing with talent. And if he just could sit down and concentrate a little bit on this geometry, he could pop the bubble and it could be great. Not true. And it's not laziness. But right now, no one in the family has an idea about how to get through this log jam. His geometry teacher, is this a person that would be accessible

for a conversation from either of you? And I don't care which one it is, but I don't think it should be both because teachers these days are a little bit intimidated, exhausted by and resentful of how dopey parents are and how overwhelmed parents are and their parents themselves and they're overwhelmed themselves. So we want to be extremely humble and respectful. Which one of you is good in those kind of conversations with a teacher? I would say I am mostly just because when it comes to school

across the board, it's just me. Not for anything more than just my husband works out of town Monday through Friday, so he's only home on the weekends, which everything with school falls on me by default. Okay, so you're out of town for work. How far away are you, Ryan? It's always changing. It depends on job sites, location. So for the last two months, I've been working in Santa Barbara. And you live in Bakersfield. Correct.

But for the last year and a half, possibly two, I was home pretty much every night. It always changes just depending on work location. So one of the occupational hazards of this kind of schedule is it puts you in a position you wouldn't choose, which is a little bit 1950s dad, wait until your father comes home and then there are going to be the punishments. And divorce dad, which is, I'm full of fun and music and delight, and I missed you guys so much. Let's have a great time and not deal with any of these sticky, icky problems.

So the role is a little bit narrowed to things you might not choose. Do you have contact with the children during the week when you're away? Various times. So it's always either when I'm talking to my wife on the phone throughout the workday, getting off, or there's random times where I'll text my son either a song or a reply to a video or something like that. Same thing with my daughter. It kind of varies, a video or something like that. Same thing with my daughter. It kind of varies, I guess, conversations throughout the day. My work schedule is kind of a bit hectic lately. So I've had state representatives on job sites, the VPs of companies. So I've been pulled left and right, up and down. So even my wife will tell you the last couple of weeks for us have been a bit of minimal conversations throughout the workday.

So it does get tough to conversate even just on a daily basis sometimes. What is your job? I am a contract inspector for a utility company out in California. Whoa. Okay. So you are keeping things flowing. You are making sure that things are connected and that the infrastructure remains intact. Correct. One approach to staying connected with your family

is asynchronous. So you don't necessarily have to talk to them. And I see parents trying to do this all the time when a parent is out of town. Let's have FaceTime with daddy and the child is busy in the middle of something else. Or let's have FaceTime with grandparents. And part of why humans love each other is that we have this feeling of, oh, she would get a kick out of that. Something that happens to you in your day. Or, oh, this would tickle that person. And you can send a text, a three-second video, an image, and these are teeny little love bombs

where it shows a nine-year-old girl that her revered and powerful dad is thinking about her and what she's interested in. And certainly between father and son, true as well with father and daughter, but father and son, as they enter the teenage years and they start getting more obnoxious, sometimes that connection between the two of you can get a little frayed, especially if you're under stress. Ryan, your job is sounding really stressful to me right now. Just keeping at least the state of California flowing and functioning. And any piece of music you hear, anything, and this is true when you pick children up at the end of the

day and carpool, instead of saying to them, how was your day? Which can feel a little bit like, how was your day? And is your geometry teacher a little more pleased with you than she was before, buddy? To say, I thought of you today, when? And then you just mention one of their interests or passions, no matter how shallow. And this is that connection. It causes them to grow and to flourish. Nurture versus Nurture will be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I'm a therapist. I see a therapist myself. We live in a confusing, wild world. How to see straight? How to negotiate the rivalry between your inner critic and denial? By spending time with someone who offers perspective on your troubles and helps

you see your strengths. How much and how well you've already gotten through tough stuff. In our world, therapy is an essential for your life toolkit. But how to find the right person? They're all booked up. It's hard to ask around. People don't share this information the way they do the name of their dog groomer or haircutter. and you want your sessions to be convenient and to fit your budget, let me introduce you to BetterHelp, an easy access, flexible therapy resource that's entirely online. When you sign up with BetterHelp, you fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist. If you want to switch to someone new, BetterHelp makes the transition easy. Our listeners get 10% off the first month with the discount code NURTURE. You can get started today at betterhelp.com

slash nurture. Leave old baggage behind, get to know yourself in new and surprising ways, put a new lens on the future, Do it now. We keep learning more about how ingredients and products we use on our bodies are not safe or healthful. Oh no, we seek products that do the job and have a pleasing scent and nice looking packaging. Enter option anxiety. Which shampoo? Which conditioner? When I received my box of Vegamore products, I smiled. The containers are a beautiful shade of soft, rosy buff. Then I used them. The products have all the good features. No parabens, phthalates, not tested on animals. The serum glides right on your scalp and then disappears. The mousse looks like whipped cream. The shampoo and conditioner are great on bubble, glide, rinse out, and shine. Give yourself peace of mind, clean ingredient hair care, beauty routine simplicity. For a limited time, Nurture vs. Nurture listeners get 20% off their first order order by going to vegamor.com slash nurture and using the code nurture at checkout. That's V-E-G-A-M-O-U-R.com slash nurture, code nurture to save 20% on your first order.

So your schedule, it sounds like, has exacerbated the problem of two different sets of values. You both nodded your head a little bit when I said, wait until your father gets home. So you're home on the weekends, Ryan, is that the case? Correct. So is he supposed to clamp down on stuff then, or do you want to protect the children from his terrifying wrath? The latter, for sure. What's funny is I love that you said that when he comes home, it's like all the fun stuff. It's more of like, OK, dad's coming home.

Like we have to make sure that all our ducks are lined up in a row because he's going to crack the whip. And I love that you gave him that advice with trying to connect a little more because I do wish that he would do that more often. Okay, I'm going to stop you right here in a second because the one whose responses to the children you can change is you. And yes, of course you wish he would do that more often, and he may or he may not, but we are going to look at him as quite magnificent right now. He's working his butt off to support this family. Neither of you had full and complete teenage years. You both had stuff with your own families. You both used the word lax about your family. And Ryan, the little bit you described about your growing up years, it was tough. There were tough things going on.

So when he does, do those things like connect with the children. What you can do is enjoy it and then do the things to connect with him yourself that you know he would appreciate. Ryan, is it lonely on the road? Yeah, quite a bit. What do you appreciate from Denise that happens when you're gone? I mean, obviously her taking care of the kids, the house, everything. She's done an exceptional job of raising our children while I am away at work. She's great. Yeah. This is tenderness. This is emotion. This is a man speaking directly from his heart about his appreciation for his wife. And when you offer little tips and guidance for how he could do better, it instead of Ryan slapping himself on the side of the face and

saying, oh, thank you, wise Denise, who knows so much about parenting. Now I know just what to do. It's similar to Anthony thinking, ah, I'll just go to the teacher and maybe she can help me with algebra. What was I thinking? I've got this person who's a master of algebra and I'm not taking advantage of it. Yeah, you're right. And I do not mean to beat you up right now because you have huge responsibility. Who do you get to talk to during the week with dark humor about what's going on with a pandemic, with a husband, with a very heavy-duty essential worker on a grand scale level job, and one preteen and one full teen. How do you get to just comfort and delight and relieve yourself of all of this responsibility

at tiny moments during the week? Do the two of you text each other things that make the other one laugh? Oh, yes. Good. Tell me what. Tell me what. I think what's funny is like our actual marriage relationship is super, super strong. Like we are best friends, number one.

I feel like I've known him my whole life. Like we were raised together, essentially. We grew up together. And thank goodness we grew together and not apart because we're not the same people we are today than we were when we were teenagers, when we became parents. I go to him for everything and he does the same people we are today than we were when we were teenagers, when we became parents. I go to him for everything and he does the same to me, but I don't have another source that I talk to. I actually just scheduled my first therapy session of my life. I noticed that I was so under stress.

I'm used to being the one that everybody comes to even in my family. I'm one of five children and Everybody comes to me my mom my parents are my dad both So I just take it all in take it all in take it all in so finally I realized I'm under so much stress when I had a shingles outbreak is what? Yes That's what it took for me to step back and say, wow, I'm doing so much. I need another source. But I think that as far as me and Ryan go, like we're strong and I don't know how we got to this place where we're just, we're so strong together, but our parenting styles are

just so different. And it sounds very, I guess, fake or whatever, but that is the only thing we fight about. Like our parenting is with what we just cannot agree on. We're pretty good and on track with everything else. Like we work so well together when it comes to the kids. I'm just like, don't be so hard. I would love for him to be the fun dad that I had, but I know that's my mistake is I'm looking for my dad in him and he's not my dad. And I need to remember that. And we're kind of glad he's not your dad. Yeah. Because your dad, as much of a cheerleader as he was, as much of a sweetheart, did not have the kind of strength, leadership, clarity, and

I'm going to call it competence muscle that your husband has. And you are shaking your head yes. I agree. I agree. Yeah. Every marriage is a mixed marriage, and it's a phrase that's usually used about religion. But in parenting style, I want one that toes the line more and the other one that sees things from the children's point of view and has lots of heart about it. So this is a great combination. I don't want to change it, but I do want for the children to see the two of you not just enjoying them because they're fun kids. They're developing beautifully. They have all kinds of interests. They kind of don't have any problems. They will. I guarantee it. That's how it goes. Everything is a phase. The good stuff is a phase and the

bad stuff is a phase. And they're getting to the age where there's going to be more challenging stuff. I want both of you to take some tender and aggressive care of yourselves. Ryan, how long will you be doing the schedule of out of town and in town for your work? Is it permanent? Is it because of the situation with utilities in California right now? I would probably say it's permanent. The last two years was the very first time I was home every day. Because of the pandemic? No, actually, the pandemic really didn't hurt my work. I think, if anything, it kind of made us more busy. A lot of work was able to be performed. So that was a good part.

It was just work location. I was able to work on the high-speed rail project that's in the Central Valley, so that kept me close to home. Like I had told my wife when that first job started was, be grateful, don't get too used to me being home like this, because it's very rare for me to be home each and every day for two years. There was a moment with work where I spent about a year away from home working back east in New York. So I only came home, I want to say it was maybe three or four times within a year. The work schedule is kind of always out of town. And we've done great with, I guess, my work schedule and family and all that and keeping our marriage alive and working and thriving.

But the plan is to hopefully get a position where I can be home more often. But until that moment comes, it will always be working on the road. And when you're away, do you listen to your music? What do you do to shift your mental state from Denise is not doing enough about the geometry problem, or I miss my folks, I miss my family, or I'm here by myself. What do you do to fill in the atmosphere, fill in the space? So it's either just conversations, either having dinner with coworkers, or if I do have enough sunlight, I try to get out and play some golf. That or just sit in a hotel room and watch movies. And are any of the movies that you watch movies that would interest the theater lover, Anthony? Do you ever watch the same movies? lover, Anthony. Do you ever watch the same movies?

Yeah. So I'm big into thrillers, action movies, just like any, I guess, typical dad. I've taken them to quite a bit of those. We have a great love for comic movies, the superheroes. So me as a kid, I loved it. I kind of brought my son along with me into that love and he's surpassed me in knowledge, love for comics. So it's gotten to a point where I can't even keep up with him on how much he knows with comics and all that good stuff. So that's one thing that we do love to do anytime there's a new comic superhero movie that comes out. We try to make that date to go out the first night when it comes out and watch it as a family. And to treat his knowledge and just his general expertise and enthusiasm about those characters and those movies with awe and honor. That what a cool thing that you share. And it also populates the world that you share with him. When you're on the road, that the two of you have a family that is all of these characters. And to talk about them as though they are, they're larger than life, so it's not too hard. But it's like with small children, when you're reading them bedtime stories, you talk about the characters and their emotions

and their choices. And I know, Ryan, that you're very interested in the values that the children develop. And this is one way, and you don't want to get too pious or boring about it, but listening to you talk, I don't think you ever would, to talk about the superhero's choices in terms of, oh, why do you think he did that? Or what do you think he'll do next? Or was that a good choice? And you just play around inside the movie, and then you're together when you're not together. I gotcha. And for you at home, Denise, it doesn't sound like you're in need of a third person to share it all with. Certainly, everybody should be in therapy.

Everybody, all the time, their whole lives. The world is crazy right now. And it is not necessarily a therapist that you pay for, but usually that's the way it works best because it's all organized for you and they're trained to do specifically that. But that this friendship between the two of you is one of the most important nutrients for children to see both their parents' alliance and their parents enjoying their lives. Because this is what motivates them to want to be parents themselves one day. And then they're going to provide you with grandchildren. And that's the best human relationship there is, because you have a common enemy. It's totally great. So what do the children see you doing, Denise, that doesn't have to do with all the details of running the household and making sure they're at their

activities and staying on top of all the household running stuff? The only thing they see me doing, which is the only thing I do, is I go to yoga a lot. I work out a lot. Yeah. So I'm always trying to implement that within themselves as well, like how important it is not to lose weight or to get a certain body type for health. I'm always trying to stress the importance of get out, get moving. It's so healthy for you and make better eating choices. Like obviously the pandemic, as I'm always trying to stress the importance of get out, get moving. It's so healthy for you and make better eating choices. Like obviously the pandemic, as I'm sure with everybody else, they gain weight and they both noticed it. They both said something about it. And I'm like, OK, let's get back on track.

Let's do this. Let's work out together. Let's do yoga in the living room. Something that we can get moving, even dancing. I'll put on music and we'll dance. But besides working out, that's all they see me doing and cleaning and yeah, running around, taking them to their afterschool stuff, tailors and Girl Scouts. And she loves that. I'm going to stop you at Girl Scouts because it's such a good example. It's similar to Ryan and Anthony in the superhero movies because Anthony knows a little bit more than

Ryan at this point about the details and all the characteristics of the superheroes. Yeah. Taylor is learning things in Girl Scouts that you don't know. Right. Can you give me an example of something she's taught you or something that was intriguing or surprising or wow? So I'm always at the meetings. So I usually learn with her. Great.

Love that. Yeah, I never leave her. But they just got done with autism awareness. They learned about disabilities. They learned about what they look like, how sometimes people can have disabilities that you can't physically see. So they learned all about that. They just got done with that. And yeah, she loves, she loves being a Girl Scout. She loves it because she always beats me up about not giving her a sister. And she always tells me like, why can't you and dad give me a sister? And I'm like,

that ship has sailed. We're done. But with her Girl Scouts, I always tell her they have this sisterhood within themselves. And so I think that's why she's thriving in Girl Scouts, because it's a bunch of girls, and they're all around her age, and they get to do these fun camping trips and learn these new things. She loves that aspect. She's way more social than Anthony is. Anthony's a little more isolated. He loves his own company. Taylor is very much, I want to talk to everybody. I want to be the center of attention. She's our little wild card. Anthony likes to be the center of attention with the script. Yeah.

When somebody's written the lines, he is so happy to perform it and also to master his songs on the guitar. And Taylor is a more gregarious person and her battery gets charged in the company of other people. And that rubs off on both of you. So she brings that sparkle home, that social sparkle. And it can be nutritious for you at the end of your hard days, Denise, to hear about the breaking news from the classroom. One role you can sort of keep an eye on avoiding is the three best friends, the three kids at home while the captain of the ship is out captaining the ship. Do either of the children go into your bedroom without knocking on the door? Do you ever close the door of the bedroom? That's funny that you brought that up.

I don't know what it is about closed doors that I don't like. My door is always open. What about when you're changing your clothes, lady? Oh, I'll go in the bathroom with the door closed. Okay. Do they come into the bathroom without knocking? Not if I'm in the bathroom. Good. Okay. So you have mastered that. I want you to pat yourself on the back. You did that. They learned that boundary. So if you close your bedroom door, does it feel like you're closing your heart to the little orphan angels? Exactly. Spot on. I feel like I'm shutting them out. I struggle with that. I struggle with closing the door. And then sometimes Ryan just wants to watch TV with the door closed. Yep. Yeah. He likes his privacy. He likes the door closed. And I feel like the kids are going to feel kind of isolated or I don't know what it is. I don't know where that comes from. I just, I always like the door open. Okay. I'm going to tell you where it comes from. I have a hunch. So you said something about people have always come to you for guidance and for help.

And I immediately started thinking about boundaries because you're tired and you are doing a lot and these kids are going to get harder. They're great right now. They're going to get harder. You need muscle, oxygen, and Ryan put it so beautifully when he said, I like to get out in the sun and play a little golf and be in the sunshine when I can. Yeah. For you to have time, and even the yoga, it's everybody, let's do yoga. And I know you go to your own yoga class, and I'm very happy you're going to therapy. It should be quite enlightening and a good adventure. And you will be nervous, but you won't be nervous after the first time, just like you were nervous about talking to me today, and I don't think you're nervous right now.

But the closed door is a symbol, so you don't literally have to close your door, but probably maybe. door is a symbol, so you don't literally have to close your door, but probably maybe. And they won't be used to it because they're a little bit used to seeing you like a lovey or a stuffed animal, like a slight emotional support dog. And how much better than a cold, icy, whatever Taylor is learning in Girl Scouts about mental disorders and people who don't have any touch with their emotions. You have so much that it's wearing you a little bit thin. to realize that just as we want both the children to be able to say to their friends, not now, not here, maybe not ever, when somebody's crossing their boundaries, we want you to be able to say that to them. Yeah. And Ryan is shaking his head. Because that is something I struggle with.

I have no boundaries with nobody. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Not true, but you would like to have a little bit more. Tell me any recent example where you were hesitant to do it, but you set a boundary with someone and the world didn't come to an end and they didn't spread it all over social media and you weren't canceled. When it comes to the kids, because I have a perfect example with the kids.

Okay. So I never cared about them eating in their rooms. It never bothered me. I would always get upset about finding crumbs and stuff on the floor afterwards, but it never bothered me. But one day I just had enough of the food on the floor and crumbs. And so finally I said no more. Like I had like a meltdown and I'm like, we're done. Like no more eating in the rooms. Like you guys can only eat in the kitchen.

And the both of them were like, okay. And I never had to tell them again. Like, so my husband and I have a running, we were laughing about it because I'm like, wow, that's all it took. I'm like, that's all it took was for me to just say it one time. And I'm learning how to, I guess, build boundaries and make boundaries. Cause I feel like with everybody in my life, I'm very open and ready for them. Like I'm ready when you need me, but I do stop and think like, besides Ryan, he is always there for me. Besides him,

I do tend to stop and think, who's there for me? Like who asked how I'm doing? So that's something that I'm trying to get better at. And I want you to write down on a piece of paper at some point today, that's all it took. Because your mind is so active, very similar to Anthony, who it's that ADD, very, very quick firing mind. And so you think and then you overthink and then you beat yourself up a little bit and I have to be completely available. And you know each person's needs in such depth. and you know each person's needs in such depth. And to be a little dumber and a little simpler and a little thicker in how you think about things, because all you needed to say is no more food in the bedrooms.

And then there was no more food in the bedrooms. I think it's because that's how I was raised. Just there's no rules. And so even something like that, I struggled with telling them no food for so long because I didn't want to deal with the constant reminders or whatever came with it. So finally, when I had enough of it,

it was, that's it, that's all it took. And yeah, I needed to just write, that's all it took. And I think that you can each take tips from the other. So rather than reminding Ryan that it would be a good idea to say, I love you every five minutes to the children, that you can see his consistency and his high expectations and his firmness, and that he can see with you the very comprehensive picture of the children's emotional needs. And it really is such a nice combination, your styles. And rather than worrying about changing the other person, to think about what's coming ahead, which is they are going to be bigger, messier, moodier, and they're going

to be ups and downs like this shocking first F, which is great. It is great for everybody because Anthony now has to come up with a plan of what he's going to do rather than anybody sitting on him, shaming him or telling him he's lazy. And every child at some point has this kind of stumble and that's how we learn to walk and then we learn to run. It has been so delightful to talk to the two of you today. Thank you for sharing your family with me. Thank you for coming on the show. Enjoy the music. Enjoy the golf. Enjoy the yoga.

Enjoy comedy night. Yes. night. What the world needs right now is non-snarky, but lively humor. And what a foursome you are in that domain. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Bye-bye. Bye. Last season, we learned the Japanese word echatori, A-G-E-O-T-O-R-I, the feeling you have when you get a haircut that makes you look worse than before the haircut. Since then, I've learned that elevating the most ordinary human experiences has become a modern Japanese tradition. Starting a decade ago, a subculture called Jimmy Halloween, J-I-M-I, which translates to mundane Halloween, developed for adult office workers who wanted to celebrate the holiday but felt silly or uncomfortable in witch

or zombie costumes. The solution? Target a specific but universal everyday experience and turn it into a flashbulb moment of performance art illustrated with ordinary clothes, props, and a sign worn around your neck that describes what you represent. Here are some examples. Person whose glasses fogged up from a hot drink. Person who stocked up on things that they already had. Student who came to see if she passed the test to get into Takarazuka Music School and mother of student who came to see if her daughter passed the test to get into Takarazuka Music School. Person who grabbed a basket but bought fewer items than they thought they would. Person who washed their hands and dried them off on their clothes. I chose this

concept because Jimmy Halloween represents so much. A way to carry childhood pleasures into adulthood. A way to turn the tiny indignities of everyday life into the sublime. And a way to satisfy the grown-up desire to be silly. The gatherings at Jimmy Halloween celebrations grow larger each year. I'm not surprised. The family we met today loves comedy and music. Ryan quickly cited his favorites, classical, reggae, underground, hip-hop, metal. Music has served as a life raft for humans since the beginning of time. If you are even vaguely familiar with the Bible stories, you know the highlights. There was an exodus of the Jews from slavery in Pharaoh's Egypt. Had to get out fast. No time for the bread to rise. We commemorate Moses' courageous

leadership every year at Passover Seders by eating matzah, unleavened bread. After God split the Red Sea and let the Jews pass through, the sea closed back up. But what happened next is not often talked about. Safe on the shore, Moses' sister Miriam took out her timbrels, an instrument similar to a drum on a frame or a tambourine, and led all the women in celebration through song and dance. Thinking music would be essential for survival on a perilous journey to the promised land, Miriam packed the timbrels in her go-bag. Good planning. All for now, thank you for joining us today.