Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Olivia Munn

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

Olivia Munn (Your Friend and Neighbors, The Newsroom, The Daily Show) is an actor and advocate. Olivia joins the Armchair Expert to discuss accepting that a messy home with kids is not a sign of failure, the story of her family’s exodus from Vietnam, and the endearing best friend dynamic between her husband and her mom. Olivia and Dax talk about feeling powerful for other people by overcoming abuse at home, inventing her own language just so she could cheat in math, and not regretting sticking to her instincts despite its effects on her career. Olivia explains following the fragility of appearance in Your Friends and Neighbors, how life or death problems streamline your priorities, and why we so often spend our time in positions that are comfortable over those that are right.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dak Shepard, I'm joined by Monica Lilly-Padman. Hi. Hi, welcome.

Someone on an Armchairchair anonymous recently said MVP. I was struck by the big mistake my parents made by not giving my middle name a V. For Ronika. Yeah, or Victoria. Yeah, or Vince. Yeah, I would take it. Or Victor.

To have MVP. Monica Victor Padman. Ooh, I like that. That's strong. Victor. For victory. Today's guest is strong. Yes. That was an elegant segue. Yeah, nice. Olivia Mun guest is strong. Yes. That was an elegant segue.

Yeah, nice. Olivia Munn is here today. She is an actor and an activist. She was on Newsroom, one of my favorite shows of all time. Great show. Magic Mike, The Predator, X-Men Apocalypse, The Daily Show, and she is currently on the hit show

on Apple TV+. I love this show. I got so sucked in. Your friends and neighbors. So check out your friends and neighbors. It's out now on Apple TV Plus. Please enjoy Olivia Munn. We are supported by Airbnb.

Oh, I love Airbnb. We love Airbnb. We use it nonstop. We traveled. Most memorable. Exactly, we've traveled the whole country and the world. Yes. We've been on tours and stayed exclusively at them. It've traveled the whole country and the world. Yes. We've been on tours and stayed exclusively at them.

It's so fun. So much cozier. Yeah. You really feel like you're kind of a resident- Yeah. Of wherever you're visiting. Because some trips are better in an Airbnb. Kingston Buskers Rendezvous is back.

Starting July 10th, come to downtown Kingston for this crowd-wowing festival and enjoy four days of jugglers, musicians, acrobats, comedians, and more. Talented performers from all over the world can't wait to entertain you all weekend long. It all starts on Thursday, July 10th, with performances right in the heart of Downtown Kingston. And don't miss Buskers After Dark, the Friday Night Fire Show.

For more information, go to downtownkingston.ca. He's an up-chair expert. He's an up-chair expert. He's an up-chair expert. Save it for the podcast. I want to know that I've heard anyone say I have. You know someone who does Kristen. Oh, no, no, I know people. I just have never heard anyone. Save it.

Save it. Oh, we're in. Now we're in. I don't think I've ever heard someone say that at the beginning, which I love. Auditory and light. And light sensitivity. And light. So these are sensory issues, right? That's what we call them broadly.

And so tell me bright lights. Bright lights, for sure. I'm just kidding. Yeah. No, it's specific things. Like if I go into a room and it's really bright, John does a great impersonation of me that when he did it, I was like, oh yeah, that does sound like me.

He opens the door and walks in and goes, oh my God, these lights are so bright. What's going on? You're so crazy. That's my reaction. And you make a character assessment at the end of it. I'm just like, what's wrong with you? You would have to be crazy. Like, do you need all these lights on?

He's like, it's literally just the overheads. But auditory sensitivity is certain sounds. And it's always been like that since I was really little. A doctor said that to my mom, took me to like a psychiatrist because I just would really have a hard time with it. And especially in schools where they're all It's always been like that since I was really little. A doctor said that to my mom, took me to like a psychiatrist cause I just would really have a hard time with it. And especially in schools where they're all fluorescent light.

Uniquely harsh, the elementary school lighting. Yeah, oh my gosh. Malls. I never understand mall lighting is so bad and it's very fluorescent. And when you're trying on stuff, the lighting's so bad. I've never understood that. It doesn't help you purchase clothes.

Yes. If you guys want me to purchase your clothes, give us some soft lighting. Perfect lighting. Give me a ring light. Yeah. Let me see how I look. It's a big flaw in the system.

So Kristen has many of these. The biggest offender is should there be two different songs playing within earshot of each other? Still short circuit. It's interesting when you have a partner, I think you're knee-jerk jerk because look, we love our partners, but we're also stuck with our partners. We're going to travel hip to hip with them

throughout our whole life. So if they're constantly agitated by something, you immediately forecast the rest, I immediately forecast the rest of my life. Well, that's gonna happen a lot. Can't you kind of... Can you overcome this? Knowing John, he likes helping me, he likes that I have a weird thing. Well, that's gonna happen a lot. Can't you kind of... Can you overcome this? Knowing John, he likes helping me.

He likes that I have a weird thing. He thinks it's very funny. Endearing? Maybe endearing. Like he's gonna protect you from it. His male protectiveness comes out. Yeah, he likes to be protective and of value when it comes to certain things

like making me comfortable or happy, but also just his personality, he finds it very funny. It's just something for him to work with. Yes. Basically, right? It's fodder for some thoughts. We went on a drive from New York to Montreal once, and he wanted to put on music. I was like, no, because I often can sit in silence

for hours in a drive. I started listening to podcasts. Your Guys was the one that got me into listening to podcasts, truly. That's nice. That makes me very happy. I love how you know so much. And so it's not just a question, answer, question, answer. It's like listening in on somebody's conversation.

So I could do that for a very long time, and I could not listen to other people's podcasts. Only sometimes, sometimes, what I told you before, there may be a person on whose voice is hard for me. And I would skip that episode or not listen to you guys for a minute. So I was like, okay, kind of got out of the- Now they're inviting these kind of voices on.

Wait, can we pinpoint what it is about their voices? Is it mine? No, I love your voice. No, no, no, it's the dynamic between the two of you. You could have not like your voice and get more than three episodes. No, yours is there, you come in very like, hey, so I'm just gonna point this thing out.

So you're driving everyone nuts. For some reason, I can listen to the same song. One time I did that drive to Montreal. I have really close friends there. It was like a four or five hour drive, but I listened to the same song over and over and over again. I like to do that.

Because it feels comfortable and I know it is. Do you watch movies over and over again? Yes. Yeah, so this is a big anxiety thing. This is Monica's favorite thing is to watch the same film 13, 14 times in like a quarter. Yeah. And then we keep seeing all these Instagram psychology tips

and one of them is that's super common for people with anxiety. Well, I have dealt with a lot of anxiety. Well, this is what I wanna get to. So you wouldn't remember the first time we met, but I do, which was at, I think dealt with a lot of anxiety. Well, this is what I want to get to. So you wouldn't remember the first time we met, but I do, which was at, I think, the Soho house at like a CAA type party. It was like an agency party, and I hadn't met you.

And you and I kind of bumped into each other at the bar and, by my recollection, had an explosive exchange of ideas. And I've referenced you many times on here. In that conversation, you were telling me that you had this something, trichinemia, whatever it is. Trichotillomania. Where you would pull your eyebrows. Eyelashes. Eyelashes.

But the trichotillomania, specifically people pulling hair. So it could be hair out of the top of your head. Cause there's a sensation, it's probably not even real, but I'll feel like, oh, this eyelash feels like it's gonna come out, even though it's not. And then when you pull it, there was a quick second of pain. Yeah. And then there's a. And then when you pull it, there was a quick second of pain. Yeah.

And then there's a satisfaction and then immediate regret. What a short lived high. It is, but we have a lot of hair, you know, but then I was dating Chris Pine at the time. We've come to love. He is amazing. We were recently at the SNL 50 and we're in the airport lounge together.

And it was so great to catch up. He's just the best. So there was a paparazzi shot of he and I, and it was the first time I was in the tabloids. I was on G4, and I was going to some very small event. It was like for weed. I think when it was just trying to be legalized. To promote it or to stop it?

It's yous. Promote it. Oh, yeah, okay. What side of the aisle are you on? Oh, I had asked the costume on this daily show I hosted, what is the ugliest dress you have? And they found this blue, old prom dress with big pom poms on the side.

And I was like, ooh, wonder if I can make it into the worst best dress list. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I did. And I couldn't believe it worked. The fact that I was like, they know who I am to even put me on this list. Right.

It was very exciting. Talk about silver lining. You get a worst dress and be like, yeah, I'm worthy of a worst dress. So I had left Chris's apartment. Hopefully, I don't think he'd mind me telling any of the story, but I'd left Chris's apartment and there were paparazzi outside his house because he had been in Star Trek and all this

and I didn't recognize it. My wallet was like a little bit bigger. It's like a little kind of wallet clutch and they caught photos of me. I was like, oh my God. And when it got out and one of my friends was like, hey You're dating Chris pine and then I did the horrible thing which was to read the comments and this is back in the day At the time you don't know that it's bad. Yeah, and they were like, I think she set this up

Who's carrying a clutch during the day? That began my trick of telemania. Oh, that was the beginning. That was the very beginning. I don't know why when we were chatting back at that party that I thought this was maybe a childhood thing, because I was certainly telling you about my tics, I would imagine. Yeah, we did talk about that.

Yeah, and OCD, you were the one who, and I credit you for this all the time, you go, well, you know what OCD is all about. Control. Yeah, but I didn't. I just knew the term OCD. Well, because you know, other people like to be like, I'm OCD and they say that in a way of like bragging about how organized and clean they are.

That's OCDP, cause we had an expert on it. Oh really? She told us. We got in big trouble on here. OCDE, OCD, egotistical. Oh, you know, OCDP. Yeah, the distinction, which is quite interesting, is if your actions are in alignment

with your overall morals, that's not OCD. So like I'm a neat freak, you think being neat is the correct way to do it. You think being clean is godly. So that's not OCD. OCD is like you have a compulsion to do things that are not in alignment with who you are. Procrastination is really connected to OCD and OCD has a lot of connections to hoarders. So when you've ever watched that show, Hoarders, there will be one cabinet or one area that still looks really perfect.

Oh. Because that's who I really am. That's what I'm heading towards. Yes, it's saying to yourself and saying to others, no, no, no, I'm really organized here. Realizing that connection made me stop myself from living like that. And so I would work really hard to clean it up. Now having children, it's impossible.

That's right. The other day I cleaned up everything while John was out with Malcolm and I'm not exaggerating within 10 minutes. It was a mess again. That was hard for me at first because I felt like a failure as a mother and as someone who's supposed to take care of their home.

Then I just was like, this just means a life well lived. They're here to teach you these last lessons that were impossible to learn. So my big thing is maintenance. You should be a good steward of the things you have. If you're lucky enough to have them, they should be in good condition. And just within two years,

every single thing in the house is destroyed. And then you have to go, that doesn't matter at all. What matters is that these kids had a blast growing up in this house, and if I kept it perfect and nothing was damaged, that would just be a different kind of childhood. That trade-off's not worth it. The thing that I focus on is I want him to take

physical risks and be brave. And I know you know that, because your daughters were on motorcycles so young. And it was hard at first to convince John, because John's family, they just didn't do anything. and be brave. And I know you know that because your daughters were on motorcycles so young. Yeah. And it was hard at first to convince John because John's family, they just didn't do anything. You know like the really low beams at the park that's literally six inches off the ground.

Right, right. He's like, Malcolm, come on, let's get off of that. I'm like, what? One time Malcolm walked up the slide like the bottom to the top. The correct way, if you're a daredevil. All of done. He goes, hey, Malcolm, we don't go up the slide like that.

But is that about rules? That almost sounds more about rules than about- No, I think it's for safety. Really? Like John was really big on safety. They can be complimentary. Like one is for decorum, but decorum is generally safer. So we both grew up with a lot of rules.

My mom was a very strict tiger mom. My stepfather was in the military. John's parents are baby boomers generation. And they kept their home really organized, I think emotionally and with a schedule. And John says that his friends would always kind of feel safe there because there was the structure, even though he had another friend who he would go to their apartment and just do the craziest shit. So he felt a lot of safety in that.

So I think that he also likes doing that. I've had to talk to him about that. And I had heard something, and when I say I've heard something, it means something came up on my Instagram. Sure. John says it, I'm like, so I heard this psychiatrist,

or the psychiatrist told me, and he was like, where did you hear it? Did you go to a psychiatrist? I said, I'm like, it was, yes, I.G. But it said something like, it was important for fathers to show physical risks and physical capabilities. Our job is play.

Yes, because it makes them feel more brave and confident in their own skills. But you know, I grew up doing martial arts, taekwondo and cheerleading. Oh, I love it. I know, when I heard you were a cheerleader early on, I was like, I know a little bit about how you grew up. It's a common language.

Yes, exactly. I think you could say that, anyone that was a ballerina, like you know that life, that's a certain kind of life. Right. But I think people on the outside of cheerleading don't understand, like we do all know about ballerinas, but not everyone knows about cheerleaders. Right. Yeah.

They should watch cheer. Great show. Were you competition cheerleader? I was high school cheerleading, but in Japan we competed in all of Far East Asia. Wow. So there's big competitions and I tried out my ninth grade year and usually ninth graders almost always make JV,

but I made varsity that year. Nice. I had moved to this new school in Japan a few years before. I had a really hard time assimilating. Was it an expat school or was it all Japanese kids? It's a military school. Oh, right, right. But we compete with all the Japanese schools too.

Can we beat them at anything? Well, we beat them eventually. You did? Okay. Okay, oh wow. So I had no friends and it was really hard. It was like eighth grade and I would look at people who had a lot of friends and the cheerleaders did. So I went to the library.

I got a book on cheerleading and how to cheerlead it. It taught you how to do like a herky. Uh-huh. There's a book on it. Yeah. I'm surprised you didn't do that. That sounds very you. It does sound like me.

Read in your garage. I would feel like I should write one. You should. That'd be so cute. So then I tried out and I made varsity. Varsity goes and competes. And our first year we got third place. Okay. And our first year we got third place. Okay.

And the second year we got first place. And it was a big upset. We were toe to toe with this other school that we had already heard was like the tough school. They were another military school. They weren't one of the Japanese or Guam schools. I don't know if this is racist, but when I think Japanese, I think synchronization.

And work ethic. Yes, yes. They got a lot of qualities that would lend themselves to. And they're lighter, so then tumbling or throwing them into air. But one of the girls came from America that same year. She'd been a cheerleader there and they were incorporating like dance.

Hip hop-y. Hip hop-y. So she brought the music and everybody else had the regular cheers. And so we had this element. But this cheer team we had already heard was tough in a way, like a little bit more street. And so they didn't mind fighting.

Oh wow. Yeah, our cheerleading coach, after we won, we were so excited, she goes, we're ordering pizza and staying inside because we've already gotten word that they're on the streets looking for you. Oh wow, this is like a football team. This is exciting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were looking for us. And so we stayed inside and celebrated. But yeah, it was a big deal. Well, we've jumped to one of the more exotic chapters of your life, which is living in Japan, but let's start in Oklahoma. Your mother comes to Oklahoma in 1975. This is the 50th anniversary

of her fleeing Saigon this year. Her own story is quite interesting, right, in that she is Chinese ethnically, but lived in Vietnam. Yeah, we're Chinese. We have a little bit of Vietnamese in our bloodline, but yeah, there was a big Chinatown in Saigon. And like what happens in most war-torn countries, missionaries come and spread the word of God.

And so then they had met the head of a Christian university and they had sponsored them to come to America. And it was my grandmother and her nine children. Was she the first to be Christian in her family? So none of them were Christian. They just played the game. Played the game. I did too to go to Cedar Point.

Oh yeah. I went to a couple of youth meetings just to go on the Cedar Point trip. I have twin uncles and they loved David Hasselhoff. They saved enough money and they snuck money in from Vietnam and they were able to buy like a Trans Am and a Corvette. Did they too come to Oklahoma? They all came into Oklahoma.

Okay. They loved growing their hair out long, like David Hasselhoff. I love these guys. They're fucking vets and Trans Ams and long hair. They smoke cigarettes? No. Oh, bummer.

But they did bodybuilding competitions. Oh my God, I love them. What are their names? Uncle what and what? Ty and Fu. Ty and Fu. Ty and Fu, my bros Ty and Fu are coming over. We're gonna bang some weights. I know, and they have like these sepia colored photos

of them oiled up and just jacked. Send me those. I would love to send you those. Is that because that was what America was to them and what it represented? That's why I like it so much. I love the fantasy of being somewhere else and you look at this other place that was on TV

and it's a fake version of the place, but you actually come and enact the fake version, which is great. It's like talk about creating your own reality. I love it. So then they start going to church. Cause that's where they asked you? Well, at the Christian university too.

Yeah. Well, they owed Jesus. Yeah. And so now they're at this Christian university and they gotta go to church all the time. And then the president of the Christian university said, hey, you need to be more clean cut. You need to cut your hair.

And that was a big no-no for them. And they're just so smart and clever. And they went and they found a picture of Jesus Christ with his long ass hair. And they showed it to her and they said, well, and then she let them keep. Ah, yeah, that's a good counter when you can bring in the top dog. Yeah, there's no top or dog.

You know, top dog has long hair. Awfully hypocritical to say cut your hair. Didn't he create us in his image? Isn't that the premise of this whole thing? Exactly. How does your mom meet your dad, Winston? She was introduced to him through a mutual friend. Did she already speak English?

Yeah, they had been learning English. So Saigon was a very wealthy city. That's why you'll meet a lot of Vietnamese people who are here, they'll tell you stories about how their family was so wealthy, which is I think while there was an invasion. And so wealthy schools would teach English and Vietnamese and Chinese and French.

My uncles speak French. How old was your mom when she came here? 20. There's a Halcyon moment in Saigon where it's like a very sexy, cool, thriving city that's very French. Of course. In the early seventies.

Like the Montreal of Asia. Yeah, the Montreal of Asia. I mean, they loved it there. What's so incredible about my family and my mother is that on that day 50 years ago they got onto a ship and left the only country and home they ever knew and they were never going to come back. My grandfather stayed back because he was going to dig up his gold. So back then they would bury all their stuff and sometimes they'd bury them with people who passed away and are buried into their

caskets. So now you gotta do a little grave robbing to get your gold back. So he was like, I gotta go get my gold, I'll see you there. And then they got a letter, however much time later that he had passed. Yeah, so he never got to come over. There's a fable in there, sticking around for gold and missing your family,

trading your family for gold. That is better. That is advice. I'm sure he was at a maracas time. But why'd they leave? Because Saigon was invaded. There was this great documentary called like the last days of Saigon or spinal days of Saigon. Because the agrarian revolution was certainly going to take

out all the people that were landowners or had been wealthy. They were enemy number one. It was not safe. Of Ho Chi Minh. Yeah. And there's five of you. So my mom married my husband. Sorry.

No, hold on right now. I tell you. Because that's really my husband, sorry. No, hold on right now. Can I tell you? Because that's really everything I think. That was so Freudian. Because you're referring to the second husband, right? In that moment? No, I will not refer to any of them.

My mom is so close with John, his best friend. When I went through all the surgeries for breast cancer, my mom was like, I'm gonna come and help you, but my mom drives me crazy. She is always on YouTube, on her phone, listening on full volume, which I can tell you is so hard for me and so many times like, mom, can you just turn it down?

It's really, really difficult. So she shuffles away to her bedroom. My daughter, who's eight months old, when she was really young, brand new into the world, she'd be holding her while she's asleep and she has on her leg, full volume, YouTube, Vietnamese news. When I say news, I mean, it's just a guy talking

about what he's read. What he saw on Instagram that day. I interviewed a doctor today. I saw it in my feed. It seems like you can't really throw stones at us. It's all you get here. I didn't say I didn't believe him. So then my mom was wanting to come and I said,

I don't need her to come. Do you want her? And John said, yes. And they hang out. John makes an actual paper to pen list of all the movies he wants to watch with my mom. They watch everything. He loves her.

They hang out. They're cackling. Do you think you'll ever walk in and they'll be kissing? No, but they're often on the couch watching a Korean movie, sharing the same blanket. Oh, wonderful. And they probably like to commiserate about you too, because I like to do this with Kristen's dad.

And it's gonna be positive. There's a fun dynamic with you made this girl, I'm now with her forever. There's a lot of fertile ground for us. So one, when I had Malcolm, I couldn't produce breast milk. I could do like a bottle a day, not even. So I had spent all this time pumping and I put it on the counter

because you're supposed to keep it room temperature because you can use it within a certain amount of time. So I come over and I look and I'm like, mom, where's my breast milk? And she has that look on her face like, eww, and I went, what? What did you do? And she goes, I thought it was to be thrown away,

so I threw it away. And I went like, mom! You know, I did that thing that you talk to your mom, like, mom, I can't believe you did that. I'm so angry at you. You have no idea. Start crying. And I'm like, this is everything.

And it takes me all day long. And this is the only way I bond with Malcolm. And then she looks at me and goes, John threw away the dog food. And I was like, what? And I got like, you know, just food for dogs or this gourmet dog food that has to be in the refrigerator. I know all about it.

And she just threw him under the bus. And then another time, she disappointed me, made me mad about something. And then she went to John and said, hey, Olivia's mad at me. She told you to put on the humidifier. I noticed you didn't put on humidifier. So when I pointed out to Olivia, just know you are in trouble.

She's like being forthcoming that I'm gonna tell on you. And then John came up to me and said, hey, your mom said this, so I need you to really act like you're so mad so that she ends up feeling bad. So then John does it. I'm like, I cannot believe you. There's only a few things I asked for you and I just reamed into him. We look over at my mom and she's like this.

She loved it. She's smiling. Did not face her. It happened exactly the way she wanted it to. So John loves it again. He likes the weird things in people. I appreciate that about him. We're so similar.

I talk to my mom like that. My mom also watches YouTube constantly and it drives me nuts. I know, I've always thought that you and I'd be very good friends. I've listened to this a lot. I've always wanted us to run into each other, but it hasn't happened. I know, I've always thought that you and I would be very good friends. I've listened to this a lot. I've always wanted us to run into each other but it hasn't happened.

Monica will scream from her bedroom, Mom, I want a sandwich. No, not currently. I did used to do that and then now it's so seeped into her. It's like Stockholm syndrome. When I arrived, she's like, here's your sandwich. Trying to be ahead of the pain. Yeah, my mom cooks a lot.

She cooks for John all the time. She'll text him and be like, what do you want for dinner? It's a love language. I could see being really charmed by a mother-in-law like you're offering. I think that would be fun. But so mom and dad met and then are you the only child out of that union?

There was first my sister. How much older? She's two years older. And when I was six months old, my mom discovered my dad was cheating on her. She had taken his suit jacket to the dry cleaners and was emptying the pockets and found two movie ticket stubs. Oh, this is very movie-esque.

It's also very 80s. It is. Two movie ticket stubs. She found a receipt for a taxi cab. He never drove in a taxi cab. To his credit, he admitted it. And then she kicked him out. And it was with a woman he played bridge with. Very sexy.

Yeah. Very sexy. A year and a half later, she marries the next guy. Oh, so they were done forever. So no second chance. That's it. Hard line in the sand. There may be more going on.

He called her and begged her to come back. And she did. And then as she tells me, there was one night where she can hear him crying in bed. And she's like, what are you crying about? And he's like, I just miss her. And he was like, I'm confused. And I don't know what in bed. And she's like, what are you crying about? And he's like, I just miss her. And he was like, I'm confused and I don't know what to do. And she was like, no, that's done.

I mean, I hate that this is my takeaway, but part of me is like, why didn't he just lie? Not about the first one, but about the crying. You could be crying about anything. There's a point you want to be caught. Maybe he was evaluating whether he wanted to be with the bridge lady or your mom. The bridge lady.

Bridge babe. I think there are quite a few people, and I think it's predominantly men, that I've experienced and seen in my lifetime that can't deal with the guilt of ending the relationship. So they want to do something where you say, I'm done. Yeah, I think that's more of a guy's move. And also to just kind of detach, stonewall,

hope that the woman finally goes, this is not fulfilling. Yeah. Okay, now here's another bonding moment for us. So yeah, my first stepdad showed up around four, or maybe they started dating when I was four and they were married at five or something. I'm not a fan of the first.

Same. Yeah, tell me about this dude. Just a bad guy. He was Air Force and really abusive and lived with a lot of fear. I realized later in life that I was creating a lot of issues in relationships and I would be quick to fight

because my equilibrium was very off. Everyone has anxiety on a level one to 10. One being, I'm gonna be late for work, where are my keys? And 10 being my entire family is burning alive in a house and I can't get them out. Mine was a consistent nine. And so as I go into life,

something that could bother me as a one or two is super high up on that anxiety list. And I would just create these fights because it felt normal. And it was a really bad time in my life. There was this one time where I had decided that I'm not going to talk to him anymore. What age do you think this was? This was at 15. I also had to call him dad early.

Eww, it was one of his things. It is one of those things, you get it. That's a control mechanism. Yeah, titles are really hard for me. Do we dare tackle this? This is very dangerous, but I'm gonna just be dead honest. I can imagine, especially in the 70s and 80s, white dudes having an idea of what an Asian immigrant woman's gonna be,

which is gonna be very subservient, and I'm gonna be the boss, and getting into the relationship, and no relationship's ultimately like that, even if on the outside appearance it has that flavor. and getting into the relationship, and no relationship's ultimately like that, even if on the outside appearance it has that flavor. Do you think there's any validity to that? Yeah, well his first wife was Chinese.

They had two children together, who just happened to be the same age as my sister and I, very Brady Bunches. And my mom and his first wife definitely fell into the stereotype of- Yeah, subservience. Yeah. By the way, what a fucking gross thing to desire.

I know. To have somebody just wait on you. Yeah, I want someone to be subservient. And you know, it's not my mom. Her second husband, my current stepfather, is amazing. When I was 16, it was the first time I got to see my mother in control. But yeah, I had to call him dad, and I hated that. It's a small thing, but you know when you have friends

and you have kids and when you're close to them, you're like, hey, it's your uncle Dax, it's just your friend. I do not like when you call somebody an aunt or uncle who is not blood. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay. Or they have godparents.

We call them uncle Kevin and auntie Stevie and that's it. That's where it ends. Yes, and I had friends who'd be like, I'm your auntie, whatever. Or John will introduce one of his friends and be like, this is your uncle. I don't say it, but I don't like it. You don't like it. Now, how do you feel about this? This is the dynamic that's happening in my house,

which is my best friend Aaron Weakley is here, is my son. He's called me dad since we were 12. And so he's my daughter's brother. And they call him their brother Aaron. Like emotionally, not actually. Emotionally, yes. Well, yeah, physiologically, he can't be my child, because I'm only six months older. That doesn't bother me. Okay, good.

So their brother is 49, about to turn 50. But I agree with that. I also feel on the opposite end, as someone who is like an aunt-like figure in many kids' lives, I don't like being referred to as an aunt when I'm not their actual aunt. Yeah, you get it. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I'm aunt when I'm not their actual aunt. Yeah. You get it.

Yeah, I'm like, that's not the right word. To his kids, the Delta and Lincoln. Well, we have other word. Like, I'm her soulmate. Well, that is extreme, by the way. And we are. Wait, Kristen's soulmate or the children's? Delta's my soulmate.

Well, Delta is very... Soulmate-y. Very, yes. Because I started working with them when Delta was three months old. And I was taking care of her and she is my soul mate. Well, I'm happy that you found your soul mate. I know, but yeah, aunt, it's not the right word,

but I don't really know what the right word is. I dated somebody who was Filipino. In Filipino culture, there was always auntie and uncle. Same with Indians. Yeah, and I'd be like, is it real? I have to be like, is blood? And they're like, no, no. And you're like, okay, okay.

Yeah. I wanna know, blood or not. You were triggered. I was triggered. What is the reality I'm living in? Is that a blood relative? Yeah, it makes a difference though. Okay, so this dude though,

he first took you guys to Utah. And you were in Utah for what, maybe three or four years? Three years at Hill Air Force Base in Utah. But were you sad to leave Oklahoma? Did you pine for it? Yeah, so my grandmother and grandfather, my dad's parents, my grandmother is the kindest person you'd ever meet. in Utah. But were you sad to leave Oklahoma? Did you pine for it? Yeah. So my grandmother and grandfather, my dad's parents, my grandmother is the kindest person you'd ever meet.

And they were with us all the time. My mom loved them. They loved my mom. And they took care of us a lot. So leaving that was really scary and made me sad. And the first time we were there was in kindergarten. So we went really young. The abuse had started and I was already really fearful.

So being there away from my grandparents, the people who kept me safe. And I noticed that my mother didn't feel that she had the power to do anything. My mother, when I asked her how she could have been with that dude, she was driven almost solely by the shame of, there's no way I can fail at this a second time.

That it was such a powerful force. I think that when she had two children, there was this feeling of, how do I support them? Being married to someone that has a steady income was important. It was so far back, but I remember it clear as day. There was this one time, all the kids got a sled for Christmas and we were in Utah where it snows a lot.

And my older brother, Jimmy, who was just one of those kids that parents probably get annoyed with, my stepdad was like, I made this for you guys. I took me all this time to make it. And Jimmy was looking and he goes, you didn't make this. Yes, I did. And he looks again, he's looking around and goes, you didn't make this.

And then he beat the shit out of him on Christmas day. He didn't make it, did he? No, he couldn't have done that. Jimmy knew him enough. There was no shed for him. There was no area that he made this at. I felt powerless. That became the point in my life

where I became such a fighter. Going back to the story of when I had decided to stop calling him dad or talking to him at all when I was 15, I had done it for a while. And then finally I was walking up the stairs and he was walking down the stairs. And I just kept looking down at the stairs and he stops me and he says, I'm sick and tired of you not talking to me.

And then I looked at him, I rolled my eyes and kept walking and he grabs me and he turns me around and he slaps me so hard that my head hit one of the framed family photos that went up along the staircase and like cut my eye. I remember looking at him with tears coming down, but not sad tears, but pain tears. And then just rolled my eyes again.

He had this look of like, what the fuck? Well, I know what the look is. Oh, I'm gonna have to kill her to dominate her. And it was so piercing, but mine was piercing back to him. of like, what the fuck? Well, I know what the look is. Oh, I'm gonna have to kill her to dominate her. And it was so piercing, but mine was piercing back to him. That solidified for me that there's a lot of power in fighting back. And so in my life, I would fight back a lot,

sometimes to my own detriment. Same, same, same. Yeah. Well, it's hard to remember you're not a kid. You'll be an adult and you realize, oh, I'm behaving as if I'm 15. I have no choice over my behaving as if I'm 15. I have no choice over my surrounding and who I'm around.

Well, because memories don't know time. When something happens to you, you go right back to being eight years old. You go right back to being 15. And the reactions that you had then feel applicable to what you're going through in that moment. Well, and they were required and saved you and needed. And then, yeah, at some point, they're probably not needed.

But yeah, if you have been afraid of someone, there's nothing quite as satisfying as having been afraid of somebody for a very long time and then getting to the point where you declare you're no longer afraid of them. Or even, I don't mind what the outcome of this is. I think I was just born like this. I just always wanted to fight back.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Today is the worst day of Abby's life. The 17-year-old cradles her newborn son in her arms. They all saw much. I loved him. They didn't have to take him from me. Between 1945 and the early 1970s, families shipped their pregnant teenage daughters to maternity homes and forced them to secretly place their babies for adoption. In hidden corners across America, it's still happening. My parents had me locked up in the godparent home against my will. They worked with them to manipulate me and to steal my son away from me. The Godparent Home is the brainchild of controversial preacher Jerry Falwell, the father of the modern evangelical right

and the founder of Liberty University. Where powerful men emboldened by their faith determine who gets to be a parent and who must give their child away. Follow Liberty Lost on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Nick. And this is Jack. We're best friends, ex-finance guys, and resident 90s experts. And every week on our podcast, The Best Idea Yet, we're bringing you the untold stories behind your favorite products.

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And if this podcast lasts longer than 45 minutes, call your doctor. Do you have an obsession with justice? Obsessed with justice. What's right is right. What's wrong is wrong. And when people get it wrong, it's so difficult for me. Especially when it happens personally. I remember working on a show and one of the other actors was telling me something that they thought

was really unfair. And I would go and speak to the top guy and I'd be like, hey, this is happening. And it wasn't even my fight. Right. And then I would kind of get chastised for it. And then he would do it again. By the third time or so, I thought,

oh, he's abusing this. He knows that I will get it done, but he doesn't have to take the fall or any of it. Yes. And so that's where the justice thing has also bit me in the ass. Yeah, me too. Big time sheriffs all over the place here.

Additionally, we're wrong a lot. Or it's 60% unjust and it's 40% just. And if I try on their glasses, I go, oh, I see why they acted like this. Because I think within the sense of justice, you have to also be doing a lot of character assessment and you do a lot of contribution error syndrome. Like you make some kind of decisions about who they are,

which explains this injustice. And then now we're like in judgment and all these other things. Whenever a friend asks me for advice, the first thing I ask is, what is it you want? Let's just get to that part, and then we can like backtrack from there, but what is it you want? And it always begins with understanding

and sensitivity to the other person. Yeah. Given that was the environment you were living in, what kind of kid were you on all the rungs? And then we ultimately, we moved back to Oklahoma for junior and senior year, which sounds like quite an endeavor if you've been in Japan for the last 10 years or seven years. Yeah, it was hard.

Yeah. So where were you at in the social hierarchy? What was your position? Because I'm going to say a lot of super gorgeous people will say they wear wall flowers in high school. It's very hard to believe for most people, I think. Yeah, I was not a wallflower, and I was never an ugly duckling.

When I got to school, at this point, and I think it's probably the abuse that had happened to me growing up, I loved Disney, and I wanted to almost feel childlike, but I was also grown up in my head, so I would buy like a button-up shirt that had the whole Disney gang coming out the side. It was mature.

And I got to this school and there were some boys that noticed me and that brought down the ire of the girls. Yeah. You were the new gal and all the guys were interested. And so they were like, who's this bitch? Not all the guys, but one of the popular guys or two. That's all you need too, to really shake things up in a school.

And I got letters like you're a slut. And it was really, really difficult for me. It got to a place where I started wearing baggy clothes. My sister had a Metallica shirt. I go, this is cool. They're gonna think that I'm into this stuff and I'm tough. But the thing is, I was pretty tough. I was doing martial arts since I was four. And I have older siblings. That was the fourth of five.

So I was fighting with them a lot. And we got physical. And I, at this point, was eating lunch by myself outside. And then they all came up to me, and I was sitting in this outdoor area where there's like these cement steps, and I was sitting on the steps, and here they walk up, five or six of them.

They were like, we think you're a slut. And I was like, why do you think that? What have I ever done? I've never even kissed a boy at this point. Like, what are you talking about? We must have different definitions of slut. And then they just reamed me over it. And then finally, I was just so tired of it.

I got up and I said, let's go. And they're like, go where? And I was like, let's fight. It's gonna be hard unless you guys come on one-on-one. So I'd prefer one-on-one, but let's go. Just that confidence. It's so embarrassing when I think about now, but I got into my karate stance.

Good for you. Very like karate kid where they're like, let's go. And I was just ready to grapple. And then they stopped and turned away. And it wasn't until the next year when I was varsity cheerleader and homecoming princess, really turned it around. And they wrote me a letter saying sorry for everything.

Oh wow. See, here's the problem. You get rewarded for these moments. I like that about myself. It solidifies your choices were effective. Yep, and then that somehow is now stitched into your identity and then now weirdly, I was manifesting those situations

because I like it about myself. I don't back down or I stand up for people. And then that's just a dangerous road to be on where my identity is kind of dependent on me proving my bravery a lot. Yeah, well also what has happened to me is when I've needed to advocate for myself, or speak up for myself, or try to correct a narrative, that thing comes up in me, which is the negative things that my stepfather would say. Even though as a kid I fought back,

you can't say that to a kid without them thinking that. And you can't abuse a kid without them thinking that they're worthless. And you can't abuse a kid without them thinking that they're worthless. And you can't see your mother powerless without you feeling also powerless. So I felt really powerful for other people. If I was part of an overarching theme, like Asian hate or the Me Too movement,

I'm like, yes, I can do this. But if it's me personally, the feeling of worthlessness. And when you're fighting on behalf of other people, you can see things a little more objectively. And when it's you, it's easy to say like, well, maybe they're right. Maybe whatever they're saying that you know is wrong, but are they wrong?

It just starts this chatter. But the truth is I always wanted, and I still do, I wanna defend myself against things. This runs the risk of offending you and I hope it doesn't. I think I see in you a similarity that I have. When I started getting attention from like high status girls and they were generally older than me, there's never been a sweeter nectar to me

than the approval of the opposite sex if they're- High status. High status. Do you have that at all? It would be the opposite sex if they're... High status. High status. Do you have that at all? It would be the opposite. It would be getting the respect from women. Oh. For people my same age, older women that I respect, because those are the people who targeted me.

Okay, that makes more sense. But you were smart. You got great grades. Yeah, I worked hard to get the grades. My siblings are very, very, very smart. My sister's partner for law firm. My younger brother just became a physicist in France. And they're just brilliant.

And I was not like that with them because I had a stepsister who's the same age as me. She would always be in every honors class, every AP class. And so my mom would be like, you have to. Yeah, what's going on here? And especially being Asian, like, well, you have to. Yeah, what's going on here? And especially being Asian, she's like, you have to.

What a shameful event. So I worked really, really hard and I got really good at cheating. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't suspect you, so that's good. Yeah, me either. Yeah, it's a good twist.

The energy that it took for me to come up with my own way to cheat, I could have learned the stuff. Sure. Like I came up with the whole alphabet of dashes and dots for math formulations. And I would put it on the chalkboard in between classes when the teacher had gone for a break. I would literally be able to read the dashes.

Oh wow, yeah, that is far more complicated than probably. Yeah, because that is what an equation is. It's just like, it's symbols. Symbols representing quantities. But I couldn't remember it, I had to look at it. Again, I'm putting myself into a high stress situation. Which you like. Which felt comfortable.

I didn't like it. You felt at home there. I think unconsciously I just kept doing that. I like chaos to some degree. I mean, John and I will happily gossip about other people's chaos. We're just like, oh my God. One time we were doing that drive from Montreal,

he goes, okay, let's crisis PR this couple. And we spent the whole time and it was so much fun. Sometimes something will come up in the press about them. I'm like, what do you think? And he was like, I mean, we already worked it out and I think that they have no path forward. He's like, they can keep doing this, but it's not gonna help them.

Oh my God. Do you watch Couples Therapy? I love that show. It's the best. I wish they did it all the time. Year round. People need therapy year round. I know. It's interesting because some people

get so obvious what they're doing and you're like, can you not see this? Yeah, like the narcissist. But then you have to go, and it's so obvious what I'm doing. The humiliating part of watching that show, which I love, is like, yeah, and so are you. And so is everyone. Everyone's participating in the cycle.

There's some unavoidable patterns. I was with a therapist once where I'm like, and then what am I supposed to do? And he's like, well, what do you think you're supposed to do? Finally, I was like, no, no, no, you are the expert. You tell me what to do. Yes, that's why I'm paying you. And they would just be like, no, but this is your journey.

I'm like, my journey brought me to your fucking couch. Yeah, my journey wants answers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want some tools. And then finally I found one who doesn't tell me what to do, but gives me the scenarios. Like you could do this, this, or this. Yeah. Yes.

But don't you think this is representative out of that space? It transcends the therapy space. You've been on, especially I'd imagine like the newsroom. Three seasons, you have a bunch of different directors come through and you're in the makeup trailer and you're talking about who likes the director and who doesn't.

And this was my experience on Parenthood and there's so many of us to hear from. And it's like, oh yeah, there's no way to direct people. Every time a new director comes in, eight of us love the person, four people hate the person. There's someone that's the perfect therapy for. On the newsroom specifically with the directors coming in and out, there was a director.

So first season, I got a lot of love for my performance on that. I loved you on it. Yeah, I loved that show so much. That means so much. I loved that show so much. And I was happy for you, because I think we also have a similar pattern of coming out of reality in brackets, having a chip on my shoulder. What's it like to act? I'm like, I was acting, I'm punk.

Yeah, I was a host. And when I went to The Daily Show, which was a huge jump to have Jon Stewart give me'm like, I was acting, I'm punk. Yeah, I was a host. And when I went to The Daily Show, which was a huge jump to have Jon Stewart give me that call, that was acting too. Yeah. But on the newsroom, second season, I had realized, because a lot of the directors were doing this, they kind of focus on me, even though I'm like,

I got such great response, like, what are you fucking with me for? My interpretation was that they wanted to come in and be like, oh, I'm working with this person, and I'm going to put my little imprint on this character. And there was one director who came in multiple times. There was a storyline where my character and Tom Sadowski's character are dating and falling in love. He kept trying to force me to carry that storyline only on my side. Like I'm in the middle of working and I've got this new Bloomberg machine and I'm so excited. And he's like, can you look at him and smile? And I'm like, why? She's busy

doing this. Or can you stop and snuggle up to him or flirt with him? Or can you give him a kiss? And I'm like, this is in the middle of working. There was one time where my character finds out that he's done insider trading with some information I got him. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? This is insane. And they're like, I don't think that you're that angry with him. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? This is insane. And they're like, I don't think that you're that angry with him. It's kind of funny. Oh my God.

Insider trading is kind of funny. Yeah. Yeah. I just fought back so much. And then it got to this place where there was one scene and I was like, no. He said, look, it's my job as a director to see all the different colors of the rainbow.

You are looking at only one color, and I don't think you realize how you're coming off. And I said, how am I coming off? And he said, really forceful and strong. And I said, great, that's what I wanted. And walked away. And then I got a knock on my trailer from one of the producers.

And they said, hey, I see that there's an issue and I've heard from the director, there's a bit of an issue and you guys are kind of butting heads. And I was like, this is what's going on. Why am I being- You can go talk to him. Yeah, and I'll tell you,

I was happy with what I did instead because I would have been the one. People would have been like, oh, look at her character. Look how she's playing it. They wouldn't even care if I even said it was him. So I just stayed to my convictions. And then afterwards I was on the one yard line for the movie and my manager calls me and says,

hey, you're gonna get the role. But first, I guess there's another director who they know. And he says that on the newsroom, you were late all the time and really combative. Oh, he threw late in. Oh, my God. Added a little sprinkle. It was at Sunset Gower. I lived seven minutes from there.

I was never late. And I was like, I know who this is. He just was trying to bash me. And I told my reps, please tell the directors this. And then I still got the role. But I will always remember that just because of our conflicts of how we approached a role. Your creative differences.

He wanted to ruin my chances of getting anything else. Yeah. Yeah, that's a dark impulse. It's just this business is so hard because everyone's trying to make their mark. Everyone's trying to get credit. That director on the show wants something different so they can point to and say, like, that's my work.

I'm the reason that X, Y, and Z happened as hard. Obviously, when you start in this business, there is the hope of making your mark and getting to a certain place. But this kind of dynamic that I had experienced for so long has really changed the way that I think about my career and what I want. And I truly just want to do great work that I'm happy with.

And I want to live an easy, happy life. I don't need to get to the next echelon. You turned down Deadpool? Oh, wow, wow. You get X-Men at the same time or was it an either or? It was X-Men after that. Deadpool, they wanted me for the wife, and Simon Kinberg reached out,

and Ryan Reynolds sent me an email. At that time, the stuff I was getting offered was always, the female character wouldn't exist if the male character didn't exist. And Ryan sent a strong pitch for it, but that's the whole thing of the morality thing. I was like, nope, I'm only going for these types of roles. Yeah, Deadpool became a huge hit.

Yeah, and just a great hit. Yeah. Huge hit. And just a great movie. Yeah, it's all across the board. It's a big win. A big win for them. It's a big win for them. I mean, it's gone on a million times. They have so many sequels to that.

And possibly they keep getting better too. But you can't feel too bad about that because you had a reason and that reason was real. It wasn't like they didn't offer you enough money. Okay, well, or not. No, no, no, no, no. I heard Amanda Seyfried say the other day that she turned down some big role. I don't know which one it was,

but it was a really big movie. And she was like, but I don't regret it because that's what I needed to do for that time in my life. Yeah. It's because I'd made decisions based off of this thing in me that was like, nope. I didn't really think through those. That's why I think on certain things that I've done,

I'm like, what was I thinking? What was I trying to prove? I made a lot of my decisions coming from a place of feeling less than. Now, of course I knew you had had breast cancer. Because I had told you guys. But I guess I hadn't realized until today, until I was learning more about it,

is that you had gotten a negative mammogram, you had gotten a negative ultrasound, you were negative for the BRCA gene, and then you took this test. It's called the Lifetime Risk Assessment Test. It's for breast cancer. It's free, it's online, it takes minutes. You don't even have to put your email in.

So it's a questionnaire. Yeah, it asks you like, have you had children? How old were you when you had your first child? How old were you when you had your period? Anybody else in your family have cancer, breast cancer? And then it gives you this percentage and anything above 20% is considered high risk. You were 37?

37.3. What even prompted you taking that? My doctor, Dr. Taya Salibadi, she is an icon. There's no other doctor that I know that's like her. She is so proactive. She spends so much time with you. And she says, I do this thing called a lifetime risk assessment test.

And my score came out high. And so she said, go get an MRI. When I had come out about this test and it just reached so many places around the world. The test went up by 4,000% people taking the test. And she called me crying and saying, this has been my mission for my whole life. I knew that it wasn't something that people knew about,

but I had no idea it was like such a passion of hers and how much it would save my life and so many others. Yeah. Once you go and get an MRI, just for starters, I guess I'm shocked that you have to get to MRI level before that would be discovered. But once you get an MRI, what do they find? So I go in and the radiologist calls me that same day

and he says, I think there's something on your right breast and I want you to go get an ultrasound. So then I go get the ultrasound and then the doctor there is saying, I think I found two more. So then they go go in right now to get a biopsy. And they were concerned because with breast cancer, they think of your breast as a quadrant. So imagine an X right through it. And if you have multiple tumors in one section, that's not as abnormal.

But now mine was multi quadrant and multifocal is multiple ones. So multi-quadrant, multifocal. Oh, wow. So I get the biopsy and they said, let me take a few days to get it back to you. And Dr. Taiz Ali-Badi's office called and said, come in to see her. She was like, it's cancer, it's stage one

and it's not normal for it to be in this many areas. So I'm gonna guess that it's in your other one too. And I had called different friends of mine who were doctors around the world. So I was just like, tell me something good. And they were like, there's no way it's bilateral. It's so unique and you're too young. And then my surgical oncologist went back

to my original MRI and he said, I think there's something there. And then they had me do an MRI biopsy, which is like you're lying down on this machine and you go into this thing and they kind of position it, they circle and the robot goes in and takes it and comes back out. Then they call and they said it is bilateral,

multifocal, multi-quadrant breast cancer. Now really quick, I do imagine most people who get a diagnosis have felt some kind of symptoms. I must have been such a shock. You couldn't have been feeling. No, no, no, no, not at that place. That's almost scarier. Yes, it's very scary.

Because then you're like, God, my body won't even tell me. So scary. You know, like when you realize how lucky you are, but you're still so scared. The aftermath. Yeah, if you're about to fall in front of a bus and someone rescues you,

sure you have that attitude. You're like, fuck. But then you're also going through the panic of you can see what that was. And also, did this come out of my breast and gone to anywhere else in my body? and someone rescues you, sure you have that too, but then you're also going through the panic of you can see what that was. And also did this come out of my breast and gone to anywhere else in my body? And you already had Malcolm.

I had Malcolm, he had just been here. So now the stakes are a million times higher. Like I've not valued my life at all until I had kids. Yeah, and after they did my double mastectomy, they do this thing called margins, where they take the tumor and they have the tissue and they look to see how far out it goes before they clear margins.

So they go like, oh, you had clear margins after X amount of- Centimeters or something? Exactly. So they ended up finding a tangerine size section of more cancer. This just happened to a friend of mine where it's like, she went in for one thing, they got in there and then lo and behold, it had grown all the way up

into her arm. Oh my gosh. And it was enormous. How are they not catching this earlier? You know, mammograms are amazing. They have saved countless lives, but they're not perfect. Yeah. That's why Dr. Alibadeh talks a lot about AI in the medical field.

She's like, they can spot it way, way before a doctor can with the naked eye. And with mine, it's a fast moving, aggressive kind of cancer. So there is a reason why it was all over. And I wouldn't have another mammogram for a year because I just had it. I don't know how much it would have spread like your friend,

what stage you would be at. And that determines your path forward or counting days. There's so many people who are given this diagnosis and don't have the opportunity to fight. They literally are given a calendar and don't have the opportunity to fight. They literally are given a calendar and been like, here are your days left. And I'm just so grateful that there was a path forward for me.

Yeah. Did you have to do chemo at all after? No, because it didn't make it to my lymph nodes. And specifically because I opted for a full double mastectomy with both breasts. So some people do lumpectomies. It's a much easier procedure. But because I had so much, I wanted to be really aggressive double mastectomy with both breasts. So some people do lumpectomies. It's a much easier procedure, but because I had so much, I wanted to be really aggressive

and I didn't have to do radiation either because when you do lumpectomy, you've got to do radiation at least. When I was taking my dad to chemo, I was expecting to walk into this chemo facility and see a bunch of people like my dad, heavy smoker men. He was almost always the only man in there and it was just all young women.

And I was just like, oh my God, this is so much more epidemic than I gave it credit for. And it's young. I remember going into so many doctor's appointments, there's so many. And after my surgeries, I go into the oncology section. It's shocking how many people you see that are sickly like actually look sick.

Yeah. It stops you in your tracks. And especially when you're somebody going through it, you're looking at what could be you. You're on the same highway and they're at like a different exit. Yeah. And I'm like, fuck, am I gonna be exiting on their exit?

Yeah, yeah. It's getting younger and younger, breast cancer. There's like a new wave of cancers that are affecting younger people, and it's so scary. It is scary, and I think that's why early detection matters so much. And you've had five operations as a result of this? Yeah, I had a lymph node dissection to check my lymph nodes.

I had a nipple delay. It's elective, but it gives me a better shot of keeping my nipples because when you do a mastectomy, you cut through like blood vessels and that is bringing oxygen to your nipples. So they do this special surgery. I'm gonna say it wrong, but like you're doing something to the blood vessels

to open them up and make them stronger. You do it 10 days before your mastectomy. And that way it's like, you have a better shot, which worked for me. Then I had the double mastectomy. Then I had reconstructive surgery and then the medicine that I was on had to reduce my ovary hormone production. This is where they force you into menopause. Yeah I'm still on another medication that's why I have that rash on my leg and I've had hives and I have exhaustion and that's why also I spend a lot of time in bed and on the couch, but I'm really trying to like,

just ignore it and be like, it doesn't matter and keep pushing forward. But the one that I first took was Lupron. It's a monthly shot and it's a bully. I had to take that for egg freezing. I did egg freezing, I don't remember it, but I guess it would make sense because it messes with your ovaries.

Yeah. How many eggs did you get, do you mind me asking? No, of course I did it twice. I did not have good results. I had two eggs the first round and seven the second round. So I have nine total. It was not a great experience for me. I mean, I'm glad I got what I got.

Which doctor did you use? I went through USC, the Keck. Dr. Kevorkian. Have you heard of him? It was one of those things I was like, well, do I do it again? Do I do it again? Like, how many times do I do this to accumulate all these eggs? And then things that was like, well, do I do it again? Do I do it again? Like how many times do I do this

to like accumulate all these eggs? And then I was just like, you know, this is it. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. We got 10. I don't know, nine. I decided to do an ophorectomy, which is a procedure that takes out my ovaries,

which put me immediately into a surgical menopause. Anaheserectomy? I also had a hysterectomy. I had my uterus and fallopian tubes taken out. I just want to mitigate the risk that I get cancer somewhere else. And those are big places to get cancer. And if I had any signs of HPV on my cervix,

I would have taken that out too. But if you take out your cervix, you have a higher chance of prolapse when you get older. That kind of makes sense. It's kind of like the tether holding everything up at the top. It's like the cap. When you have a double mastectomy,

your breast implants have to be circular because when you have an augmentation, they can do like Kylie Jenner just talked about, it's a tear drop half under, half over the muscle, it's a whole thing, which makes it look natural. But if it's oval and if it turns, then you've got the oval going horizontal, right? Sure, sure.

So they have to do round so that they can spin in place if they need to spin. In the event that spinning's required. Yeah, that I'm break dancing. They usually have to go larger than what you would ever want because you have to fill up with breast tissue and all of that, right? If not, they're going to just kind of hang down. And so I had begged my surgeon, go as small as you can.

You can sometimes see the implant through your skin. It kind of looks like this pulling wrinkling kind of thing. But I was like, I don't care. I don't care. And John wouldn't care. So I was like, I just don't care. And so he told me that he was in surgery and he put the smallest one in and they turned to his assistant. He said, I think we can go smaller. Because the last thing I said as I was going into that surgery was please go smaller. Actually, the last last thing, John has this video of me. I had just read a book on Jackie O and I was talking about Jackie O, she had so much anxiety.

She just had... She just lived this hard life. And I turned to the anesthesiologist and I go, you look like you don't have anxiety. Like, you look like you're pretty good. And then John was like, oh my God, so he starts recording. And as they're wheeling me out, I was like, hey, I'll see you later. And John was like, bye, I love you.

And I went like this. And I just threw up the peace sign. I was like, hey, I'll see you later. And John was like, bye, I love you. And I went like this. And I just threw up the peace sign. I was like, deuces, I'm out. I'm out. I'm high and I'm out. Gosh. So are you on like the creams and stuff

that everyone who's talking about menopause now is saying like we all need to be doing? Well, she can't, right? Exactly. But there are a lot of things that I can do to combat the symptoms of menopause. I can't put hormones in my body. Like testosterone, there are a lot of things that I can do to combat the symptoms of menopause. I can't put hormones in my body. Like testosterone, there's a testosterone in our body that turns into estrogen and that can really exhaust me to have that depleted. And I can get aches and pains and

I get hot flashes and the chill, which is kind of a cold flash. Yeah, ugh. And then the medicine can give me like hives and rashes. At first, I was so frustrated with it. Last year, tried this medication. So angry, I had the shortest fuse. Yeah, irritable. Everything that I was mad about, I would say is justified,

but normally I'd be like, oh, this is annoying. It was like, this is not okay. Unacceptable. Yeah, so mad. On our flight home after having our daughter, I broke down crying and I hadn't really said this to John because I hold a lot of stuff like that in. Well, you gotta be strong

or people will take advantage of you. Yeah, and I remember just looking at him and I was like, can we talk? And I just broke down crying. I said, I am in so much pain. I don't know how to stop. And I said, I don't like being angry, but I feel it all the time.

He's like, do you ever feel happy? Because it seems like you've been happy. Like when our daughter's born, I go, yes, yes, yes. There are times when I'm happy. But even when I was happy, I felt like I had my hand on a door and there was a monster trying to get in at any moment. So even though I was happy, it was ever present.

And that's why anything could set me off. And so then I said, I don't think I can do this anymore. I think I'm going to have to roll the dice and hope that it doesn't come back. Because you're supposed to take this for five years. And he said, let's think about this. Let's go to your oncologist. And then she brought me onto another medication that gave me full blown anxiety, like physical anxiety. I couldn't take full breaths. So then I have decided to go back to exhaustion. Okay.

That's the lesser of all evils. We had an expert on it. She told us that the percentage of women who attempt suicide is the highest during perimenopause. Wow. Because of that, cause there's like so much happening with your hormones and anger and no one knows that that's what's happening.

My postpartum was extremely difficult. On a scale of one to 10, I'd put it at 100 and I'm not kidding. I'd wake up every day at 4 a.m. gasping for air and feel tightness in my chest all day long and I felt like I was not even dying. Like the feeling if you get if you're afraid, that's what I felt like all day long and I felt like I was not even dying. Like the feeling if you get, if you're afraid, that's what I felt like all day long. And I found out later, cause I couldn't make breast milk as I told you guys. So I decided to stop completely.

It's so much process. Yeah, it's just guilt. Exactly. Self-hatred. Yeah, and I was like, I'm getting given formula and I'm gonna be happy about that and fuck everyone else who's telling me that I can only feed my baby with one certain way.

Every mother should do whatever they need to do to feed their babies and not feel any guilt. But when you stop breastfeeding, your hormones drop. And if you wean off like a lot of people do, it's not gonna hit you. But I went from breastfeeding, even if it was a little bit, to not. And that's what spun me into my spiral.

And I didn't even talk about it. And it also goes into another topic, which is when you open yourself up to people asking you questions or speculating on your life, it's like, how much did you share? And then are you allowed to share, but then expect privacy at the same time? Right, right, right.

Yes, that's the dance you're doing. I wanna be open with you, but I want to control the reaction to my openness. It's also like with your relapse, you know, you talk about it so much on the show and then you've gone through something so personal that you had a lot of shame about. And you're like, do I talk about this?

Am I ready to talk about this? When do I talk about this? Do I owe this to anybody? I've already invited them in, I've already talked about this so much. Yeah, I think I had already crossed that bridge, which is why it felt like I didn't really have a choice. Yeah.

If I were to have any integrity, I couldn't be receiving all the praise for it. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. You said something to me, and I was with Bradley in Paris. Uh-huh. You said something to me then that really opened my mind in a different way. It stays with me, and I think about it often. You're talking about addiction and how at one point you were going from girl to girl, you're dating a new girl, a new girl, and you had this epiphany or maybe somebody told you that you keep looking for this

high of something new and you are chalking it up to, but I want a new experience and I want to experience new things in the world, in the life, but you are not getting a new experience. It's the same experience. Over and over and over. Over and over you're just putting in a different person. Yeah, it's the illusion of novelty. Exactly, and you said, what I've never done before is stay in a relationship for X amount of years. What I've never done is walk my daughter through the park. That trip where we saw each other,

Kristen was about to have Lincoln in March, and we were there in January. So it was like, oh, this'll be the very last time I can go see a buddy in another country. It was that kind of trip. And I don't think that we knew that she was pregnant or I don't think it was in the world that she was pregnant.

No, probably not. So I remember when you said that and I thought, oh, that's right. Like when you're doing the same things, you think that you're doing something different but it's the same experience. And then at some point I'd heard that you guys had the baby and it really impacted me.

You were imagining yourself, but I think that's a big part is like, can you imagine yourself doing something different? And if you've already set your mind on, I do this, you're only going to do that. Yeah, and drinking had that too, is like I'd be at the bar and I've gone there to have a novel experience.

I've had my normal day, now I wanna go have a fun drinking day. And I'm at the bar and I'm reading the fucking label on the Budweiser bottle for the millionth time because I'm bored. And I'm like, oh yeah, there's nothing novel about it. If anything, it guarantees that I'll never do anything differently again.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, that's delightful. That made me so happy. Oh, I'm happy. You liked that. Okay, let's talk about friends and neighbors. I love it.

You do? It's fucking awesome. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it. You do? It's fucking awesome. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's so good. Thank you so much. And then I'm wondering, do you have this thought too? It's like, I love it. It's about the 1%.

Everyone has a perfect house. Everyone's got a rad car. They're a member of a club and the whole nine. And I find myself uniquely interested, or I think it's uniquely interested because I know a lot of rich people now. And yes, the happiness didn't tick up. The themes of our show about how money doesn't buy happiness

and how just a complete blind ambition can upend this constructs of wealth and privilege or loyalty or religious beliefs. You are just blinded by something you want. We all have experienced that. And so I think in that people can connect too, but the overarching kind of world that we're in, it's meant to be a peek into a world

that most people can't see. Well, what I like about it is it has a second gear. It was explored in White Lotus too, which is it's really crazy to have both the realization and the knowledge that it doesn't feel good, and an insatiable desire to protect yourself from losing it. That's what's so fascinating to me as the second part, because you and Jon Hamm's characters

are both in this situation where you're on the verge of losing your access to this world, which you've already been disillusioned by. We know it in Jon's narration at the beginning. He just talks about the treadmill and it's so familiar to everyone. You get the promotion and you constantly move to places to make yourself poor again.

And then you're finally at the place where you're not poor. So he's disillusioned, he knows, and yet he can't lose it. And then you're getting divorced. You were married to a rich dude. Yeah, and my character is the only person who wasn't born into wealth. The way that Jonathan Tropper explained it to me when I first spoke with him about it,

he said, these people are the ones who go to the right high school, go to the right Ivy League college because their parents went to that same Ivy League college. And because their dad knows this hedge fund guy, you get to have this really great job with this hedge fund. Everything is set up for success for them. Then you get the big home,

then you get the big vacation home, then you get this car and that car and this watch. And there's this fragility of appearance that people aren't acknowledging when they have everything and how quickly it can slip away. And my character and John's character is really examining how far someone will go when they lose it all in order to get it all back.

And my character, I thought it was interesting because she's come from a blue collar upbringing. So she knows how to live without this. But now that she does, you can't go back. They always say that in their 20s, you're figuring things out, but you're off the mark. By your 30s, you're finding yourself, and by the 40s, you got it.

And I wish that wasn't as true as it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With my children, I want them to have struggles because that's the only way to learn. However, I want to be able to tell them, hey, don't spend as much time on relationships as I did. Fuck that. Like, it's not gonna, but then you know they need to.

But I think if I was given more of a heads up, I think I would have made different choices and the lessons wouldn't have taken so long. I don't know though. I guess there's no way to know, but I don't think so. I think someone can tell you everything and you just gotta do it. You are right about that,

but I like to think I would've done things differently. No, I'm so stubborn. I know that even if I had a time machine and I personally went back to Dax at 28 and told him a truth, 28-year-old Dax would not give a fuck. You wouldn't be you without those things. That's the irony of all of it.

That's how you get to the place you're at. This is in the same vein of everything happens for a reason, which I strongly do not believe in. Yeah, I'm not a fan of that. Yeah, I don't believe in that either. Yeah, and so some people, like, when I've been in relationships for too long and I've had friends go,

but that's how much time you needed to, like, figure things out. And I go, fuck that, I actually knew a year in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my own personal drama led me to stay in that. And that is something that I think that if I had been aware of what childhood trauma does to you earlier,

I would have made different decisions because I know people who make the decision I wish I would have made. So it's clearly possible. Yes, I, throughout this entire interview, another projection I'm making onto you. I love it. Is I think you have a huge fear of the other shoe dropping.

Yes. And I have that too. When it's happy, that's weirdly the most dangerous time for me. When there really is a villain, which I've been hyper vigilant and preparing for, I've been practicing that. I know how to handle that, but happiness is like,

oh, I know what's next. Every time I was happy. Something bad comes. Yes, and I think that's as hard to shake and maybe even harder to shake than the whole financial insecurity thing. That's a rough one. 100%.

When I was diagnosed, I didn't realize this until a year afterwards or so. When I got the diagnosis, immediately the negative thoughts in my head, I dropped all of that because when you are diagnosed with cancer, you have one job. And streamlines your priorities pretty quickly, right?

That's all your mind is thinking about. How do I get through this? How do I get through this? How do I live? How do I survive? Because there's no way to climb Everest with extra baggage on your shoulders. And I'm like, oh, now that I got to the other side, I can't imagine picking it back up. However, your old behaviors and old thoughts

and patterns creep in. Years ago, I was in this almost plane crash situation. And I was on The Daily Show. And I remember I got back to The Daily Show like a few days later, and I was telling John this story. And he was like, what did you do in that moment? And I saw the flight attendant drop to her knees crying, holding on as the plane was shaking.

They're like the parents on a flight. If they start crying, you know you're really fucked. The oxygen things come down. It was the whole thing. The platinum package. Mm-hmm, yeah. Extreme fear unlocked. And then I kept saying to myself, I don't want to die.

I don't want to be in a plane crash. And then it was like, oh wait, I don't have an option. This is happening. And then the first thing I did was I had a Blackberry and I removed the battery from the phone because we were above the water. And I thought when we get into the water, I want to be able to put my phone back together to call for help. Wow. Wow.

Yeah, and John- Yeah, that's some real clear thinking. And he knew I had a lot of anxiety because I had talked to him about it. And he said, you see, when it mattered most, you didn't have anxiety, you didn't panic. And I was like, oh my God, when it mattered most, I didn't panic. We suffer, you know, we suffer in our imagination more than we suffer in real life. Yeah, we were just talking about this with someone else. Anxiety is about the future. You can't have anxiety in the present. When you are dealing with something that's right now,

there's no anxiety, you're just dealing. Yeah. You just handle your business. So that's what cancer did for me. I could not think about, it was literally one step at a time. Right. So when I have the thoughts that creep in, I think very quickly, let it go.

Yeah, back to the whole money thing, someone could easily make an argument that yes, me waiting for the shoe to drop, I made it drop. Like I don't think it's a coincidence I relapsed shortly after the money thing. It was like, I don't trust this. This is too good to be true. Again, none of this would ever be conscious,

but it's just interesting that I kind of orchestrated a shoe dropping. It's a self-sabotage. It's like, I can't lose it. So you kind of push the limit to see, can I? I already know it's going to happen, so let me do it now. Why sit here and be anxious about it happening? Let's just get there fast.

Let's have the fight, let's have the confrontation. Okay, the last thing I wanna talk about, because I did not put in enough time on your friends and neighbors. I really, really love it. So it's examining the haves and the have-nots, and also the one percenters and the insanity of it, and then trying to hold onto it even if you know like,

that's all so fertile and juicy. The other thing that I find maddening is Jon Hamm's character. He and his wife have become divorced, which let's give Amanda P to shout out. I think she's so fucking great at it. Your guys' scenes are so fun and the dynamic that you guys have to play

where you're his new girlfriend and she's the ex, all that stuff is so good. And I'm glad that you guys have a play where you're his new girlfriend and she's the ex. All that stuff is so good. And I'm glad that you guys have a relationship. We connected right away. She's radical. She's so cool. I love her. But he just is marching through life and he's vindicated. She cheated on me.

Can't fucking stop saying it. She fucked another guy. This is the guy who fucked my wife. And I'm watching that and it's maddening to me. Why? Because the notion that the only explanation for a divorce would be someone fucked somebody ignores all of the things that really should cause a divorce

in my opinion. Like were they completely isolated? Were they not meeting your needs? Were they not communicative? Were you alone with this person? All of these many elements, but it goes back to the sense of justice and I have my plot point, I have my court case,

which is she fucked somebody. And if I have that, I don't have to even evaluate, why did she fuck somebody? Did I play any role in that? Am I complacent in that at all? Yeah, there are a lot more complications in any dynamic like that. My mom told me a long time ago

that she wishes that she had not let my father come back. He already made this decision. And she even agreed, she's like, look, there were dynamics with us that didn't work for a marriage. And she didn't tell me until literally last year when we were talking about one of my close friends who she knows very well was going through a breakup

and she wanted to get him back. And we were talking about it and my friend was there and she said something that she'd never said to me before, which I think would have been so impactful, not just in relationships but friendships and work and everything. She said, when someone has told you they want to break up, you have to let them go because they have already decided their life would be better without you.

When you put yourself in their positions, instead of being like, you don't want to end this friendship, you don't want to end this relationship, you're casting the wrong person, or you guys want me, and what are you thinking? You've lost your mind, you're not thinking straight, or this is who I can be, or I can change myself. It's too late.

You have to think about it from their position. Usually when someone does something, whatever it is, especially ending a relationship, a friendship, they have already done the thought process. This isn't a split second decision. This is the verdict, not the court trial. Yes. When people have already decided that their life would be better without you, that is

a big, big thing that they're saying. That is true and it is totally valid, but Kristen and I years ago, we were asking people, would you rather your husband or your wife cheat on you or drive your kids while they're drunk? I mean, cheat on you. You would hope that would be the answer. What did most people say? Most people chose drive the kids drunk. That is rough.

That is so rough. And to me that put into perspective a little bit. I think if you listed 10 things you wanted in a partner, it'd be funny, intelligent, dependable, faithful. And as you found yourself in a marriage with them 10 years later, it's shocking to me that people like eight of those things completely disappear, go unnurtured, unfixed, and they'll live with that. And that's fine. They can accept that. But then this other thing happens, which is also on the list, fidelity.

And that is something that can't be overlooked, can't be worked out. I definitely understand what you're saying, because all of that under that umbrella is coming from some kind of pain or insecurity. Insecurity, yeah. But also a feeling of not being safe. I don't think we're giving enough credit to that.

We're all just trying to have safety. And so the idea that someone could cheat or fall out of love with you, but actually love and relationships are very tenuous is scary. For sure. It makes you feel very unsafe. But in this show, your friends and neighbors, at one point John asks his ex-wife if she's okay.

Simply are you okay? He can observe that she's really rattled. And she basically says in our entire marriage, you never asked me if I was okay one time. And so for me, if I get to pick whether Kristen fucked somebody and he never knew about it in Atlanta, versus she never asked me if I was okay for 10 years, I would definitely pick her fucking someone in Atlanta.

That moment I thought was interesting too, when I was reading the scripts, it's like, you never asked me. And I always think, well, I mean, even in real life, I've had that in relationships, like, well, you never asked me this. I'm like, is that a thing? Then you tell me that you want me to talk to you about this. Exactly, I can't read your mind.

And I'll adjust. Yeah, and also what I think is important, you know, the other day I said that about something in my past that was coming up in the present, and I was like, well, you've never asked me more about this. He clocked in, he's like, oh my God, I'm sorry in the present and I was like, well, you've never asked me more about this. He clocked in and he's like, oh my God, I'm sorry, because I wanted to receive it from you

and I wanted to be there to listen to everything. And I was like, yeah, but I need you to ask me more questions about it, to kind of open it up. Give the ball rolling, yes, help me. And he didn't realize that. And so now he brings it up in just random moments, but he can't read my mind.

Yeah. So you were saying, well,, but he can't read my mind. Yeah. So you're saying, well, yeah, he hasn't been for this long, but I'm saying she allowed it to go this long. You should have said, that's a need I have, please meet it. Yeah. Yeah, and if she stated it and he didn't address it, which is often happens in relationships. I just think it's interesting what we're willing

to overlook and what we're not. Yeah. I know people have gotten divorced, they hated their partner for like six years and then one of them cheated and then they're out. I'm like, well, you should be out, but you should have been out six years ago. Sometimes maybe it just gave them the excuse.

Yeah. Like someone needs to have a big break in morals so you can say, this is not okay. We need a blow for the scene. It's hard, it's hard to just be like, we're not good anymore. That's a really hard thing for people to come to terms with. I think it's much easier to be like,

yeah, this big bad thing happened. I've thought about why I would stay in uncomfortable situations for so long, even if I was actively talking about how miserable I was. It's kind of like our posture. When you hunch over, if somebody tells you to sit up straight and you try to sit up straight, it's kind of hard on your muscles and you're like,

this feels weird, this doesn't feel right. So you naturally wanna go like this because this is more comfortable. But as you slouch and you're in this more comfortable position because you haven't strengthened your back muscles, you will keep hunching over and over and over. And as you get older, you'll keep hunching over. So to do the more uncomfortable thing

is the right thing to do. But we so often spend our time in things that are comfortable. In the short term. In the short term. It's crazy how much of our life is governed by avoiding just a bit of discomfort. Yeah, it's really true.

Well, this has been spectacular. This is so much fun. I have been listening to you guys for years. I have to say, I love your new space. Oh, thank you. It's very, very pretty. But you miss the attic? No. Oh, thank you. It's very, very pretty. But you missed the attic? No.

Oh, good. I thought there was a bug coming. I thought it was going the other way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Visually, the attic was a lot for me to take in. Well, thank you for coming to this therapy session. Yeah, thanks for having us. The door is right there.

We appreciate it. You can see yourself now. Please take some Pellegrino. Well, I'm so delighted there's a season two because I love your show and you're fantastic on it. All right, Olivia, adore you. Come back. Yes, come back.

Okay, tomorrow? Tomorrow. Come back in an hour. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica comes in and tells us what was wrong. It's the last day of school. Oh my gosh.

Did you wake up with a spring in your step? Yeah, I did. I woke up like it was the last day of school and I was like, maybe I'll wear a wacky outfit. Sometimes you wear a wacky outfit. Yeah. Like you wear pajamas to school. Yes.

I thought about wearing my pajamas, but then I thought, no, I'm gonna probably go get lunch after the, I'm gonna be free. And I don't think I should wear pajamas to wherever I go. What if I go to some set tower? Oh, afterwards, and you don't want, well, also cool. It could be- You know that broad, she's,'s she wears pajamas like she's eccentric

That's what people Yeah, you like always wore pajamas to Sunset Tower. I need I have an update for people the hotel Cancelled my reservation. They did. Yes. What how did it all? Shake out word. I'm just I have to double double check to make sure that the credit card charge is removed, but they did cancel it. And I am very, very, very appreciative. I feel that I can return to Rosewood as I like. Happy guest.

As a very happy guest. So that was really nice. I feel guilty because I have a sense the show might be connected to that. Oh, uh-huh. Potentially it got back. Uh-huh, yeah, and you don't wanna wield your powers. Right, well. Selfishly.

I do want to, but I don't think it's fair for other people. Well, this is the age old debate. Yeah. It's, this is like canceling prom because some people didn't get invited. It's like. That just hurt. One person got refunded is better

than no people got refunded. I agree. Right? I also think maybe this is just a twisted way for me to feel good about it. But I do think when things like this happen, sometimes it's a lesson for whoever is on the other side of this,

because you really, you don't know who anyone is, who you're fucking with. You don't know who they will be. You don't know anything about them. So you should just always treat people as if they have a podcast. Yes, so I too woke up with that excitement, but also so many things to do to leave in the bus.

Well, people don't even know what's going on. So we're going on our summer. We have a summer kind of break. I'm going in the bus up to Idaho. Yeah. And so there's a ton of packing that goes on in the bus. And I've been completely not involved because we've been working so much.

So today we finish and now I do all the bus loading that the family's been doing for two weeks, I'll do in a few hours, because now I've decided I'm definitely leaving tonight. Cool. I'm very, very excited about being behind the wheel of the bus. I mean, I just can't wait.

Especially, you know my favorite thing about the bus is I'm completely unaccountable and I love it. What do you mean? I'm driving a bus, so it's like, I can't respond to an email, I can't respond to a text, I can't be asked to do anything because I can't do more than just drive the bus. And my mental disposition is such that

I need that kind of an excuse to really feel totally free. Let's go like, oh, this is all I'm doing. Looking at scenery go by. What'd you do last night? I did watch a little more last night of my sexy show. Okay. Now my friend who told me about the sexy show,

who I wasn't outing, said I could out her. Really? Yes. She wants to be known as the curator of sexy shows. Yes, Kate Mara. Kate Mara, yeah. Kate taught me about this sexy show, and we've been discussing it a lot.

Taught me. What kind of discussions do you have? Mainly like, I don't like doing this, because I don't want to be negative. But I mainly, we send voice notes, and I mainly say, this show is bad, but I like it. I wanna keep watching it.

It's kind of messing with my identity because I don't consider myself someone who hate watches things. I guess I understand it, but it's not my MO. I've only had a couple of those. You had a couple? There's a movie that we hate so much that we committed to watching it once a year.

We haven't upheld that commitment, but we did watch it many, many times, and it's on a certain day of the year we're supposed to watch it. You did that? Yeah, so I have one, and then of course the room you're watching in on the joke.

Yeah, but even that, like I can only, I can't, I'm not someone who can keep going back to that, like fun for one time. Right. But that's good, because there's too many good things to watch that I haven't watched. Yeah.

But here we are. Yeah. Even though no one is redeemable, like I don't like either of the two main characters. Do they have sex once an episode? Is it like a procedural in that you're gonna get a shoot out in a cop show? Every five minutes. Every five minutes?

I mean, there's multiple couples. So there's multiple sex scenes. Wow, do you have a favorite couple? In season two, what I just started, there's a professor storyline made for me. And he is hot and he has an accent. He kind of looks like a foreign Bradley Cooper. He could be Bradley's foreign cousin.

His foreign doppelganger? Yeah. From what country? Easter egg. I'm not good at that. Okay. Not England though? I think so.

Oh, you're not even good. You can't even say if it's an English accent. For some reason, I think they're French based off of like maybe one of the episodes I was half watching, but he sounds English. Oh. So I don't know. It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. He's a professor. Absolutely doesn't matter. He speaks the original language. He's a Welsh actor. Welsh. matter. He speaks the original language. He's a Welsh actor. Welsh. There you go. That makes sense.

Sure, Great Britain. It reminded me, I don't know if I should say this. Okay. I like really, I guess today it's like pant off. Yeah, sure. We're saying everything. Last day of school. This is last day of school.

Yeah, you gotta tell your crush, you like him, your best friend, you love them. Okay, it reminded me that this crazy thing happened in college. There was a professor, there were two professors, a man and a woman. Sounds like the beginning of a riddle. Yeah.

And they were new the year that I, my freshman year, they came in to the theater department. One was an acting teacher and one was also in the theater department, but I don't know. In what capacity? Exactly, I forget. Like he taught some something else. I had all my classes with the woman

because I was an actor. And we also had a grad program that had like 10 or 12 whatever MFA students. They were young, obviously. To me, they were old. But in the middle of the year, one of the MFA students had an affair with the male professor.

And the female professor. Mm-hmm. And the female professor found out. Oh. And they're all like, she's in her class. Yeah. It was so dramatic. And I might be making this part up. I don't think I am.

I think I knew. Before it came out. Because you saw secret stuff happening between them. I had an in with one of the MFA students. She knew because she was friends with the girl. Yes, yes, yes. And she told us. What's your ethical position?

Let's say this is a grad student. So let's say this is a 23 year old lady or 22 year old woman. And let's say there's a 23 year old lady or 22 year old woman. And let's say the visiting professor was 30. Right. What are your ethics on this? You mean like morally age-wise? Well, just the whole situation.

I mean, age-wise is not as much of an issue. It's immaterial? Yes, the issue is- Position of power? Position of power breach. Yeah. Mixed with he's married and has children. I didn't know that part.

Oh, they're married, sorry. The two teachers? Yes, oh that was a huge. No, I thought it was just like a new professor. No, the two teachers were married. They were married. They came in together. Oh no.

And they had two children. Then the people that heard me say, what's the morals of this think I'm insane? No, of course this is problematic. They were married. Okay. And then he had an affair with one of the MFA students and then this MFA student is in class with the wife.

Oh wow, hard to get an A in that. Hard to get an A and then there was like, I feel like there was like a rumor that like the teacher had a gun. was like, I feel like there was like a rumor that like the teacher had a gun. I mean, I feel nervous talking about this because these are still people. And your details are like,

you're not super certain on it. I think you just said that one of the teachers had a gun. Is that what you were about to say? Yeah. I mean, that sounds. Listen, that was part, there was like a gun in her car. Like she started going, obviously, obviously, the female professor started going a little crazy

because of this, understandably. Yeah. And, but look, it was complicated. The MFA student, people are gonna be mad at me for saying this, was wonderful. Like she was such a nice person. She was so lovely. Oh sure, you don't have to be mean to have an affair.

Yeah, but people think that. And also like, okay, how do I say this? He was hot. That's another one of your faces I'd be able to say. If there were flashcards and it just had pictures of your face, I could say what was going on. I would, the face you just showed would be like,

figure out which details she's gonna let out in this next sentence. Yeah, that's right. You were like running through, okay. Cause I'm trying to. So he was hot. He was hot, the professor. The woman,

I felt like he was taking advantage of her. Of the student or the wife? Well, I guess both, but the student. I know in my heart, she felt so like, this hot person likes me and that's hard to resist. Anyway, it was just, it's kind of all heartbreaking, but it was dramatic and I hate, it was fun. Sure, yeah, drama is fun.

In the drama department of all places. Yes, gossip's fun, we're kind of hardwired to like it. And me and my friend who knew about it were really like, you know, keeping our, it was such an interesting thing to sort of follow. Yeah, that's another weird thing we enjoy, unfortunately, is like, if we are in on a secret, most people aren't, we all like that.

Why do we like that? I know, because I guess you're on the inside circle of something, maybe there's status somehow attached to it. Or trust, you feel trusted. Yeah, trusted brand. Very trusted brand. We were trusted, we didn't tell anyone, except now I'm telling a lot of people.

Right, but that was many years ago and everything was probably, how did it end? Yours, you tell me. You don't know. The students stayed and got her masters. That you think they got a divorce during that semester? It was my senior year, this all happened. So I don't know what happened after that.

My guess is they got a divorce and she shot him. Oh my God. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. That's not funny. No, it's not funny. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Okay, pivoting. I saw something funny. I mean, not that I want to give him any attention, but I did see, oh, I meant to save it, but I didn't. Fuck. It was a video of Trump talking about his very rich friend who's on the both fat shot.

Have you seen this? Oh, I've sent that meme to people because it's got a quote from him. Yeah, he's like his friend who's super rich, but he says really three terrible things about his friend. Like most of his employees hate him. He's on that fat drug. He keeps calling it the fat shot.

The fat shot. And it's working for him, but he says like three negative things about his friend. Let's see if I can find it. If you had a friend that described you that way. Oh. Trying to explain the weight loss drug disparity, cause that one's just so obvious.

And in a way that only Trump can take a listen to, it's not one. I mean, I'll tell you a story, a friend of mine who's a business man, very, very, very top guy. Most of you would have heard of him. Top guy. A highly neurotic, brilliant businessman, seriously overweight. Seriously overweight. And he takes the fat shot drug. He takes the fat shot drug. And he called me up and he said, President, he used to call me Donald, now he calls me President.

Nice respect, but he's a rough guy, smart guy. Can I ask you a question? What? I'm in London and I just paid for this damn fat drug I take. I said, it's not working. He said, he said- I said it's not working. I just paid $88 and in New York, I pay $1,300.

What the hell is going on? What? By the way, can you imagine if you were friends with the president? Like I have these ethical dilemmas. I have access to people and I would never, we interviewed Mayor Garcetti. And when we left, he said, here's my phone number.

Of course, I would never ever reach out to our mayor with any personal problem at all. And the notion that I'd be friends with the president and I gotta get the president on the phone. I'm in England right now and I just spent $88 on my medication and I spent 1300. Like bringing that small personal grievance to the president's attention is hysterical.

Well, this is a very rough guy. He's a rough guy, he's a neurotic, severely overweight. Whatever he said, seriously. Seriously overweight. I was happy I was able to laugh because I did spend a lot of time yesterday being very angry at the current state. Administration.

Of this administration. I probably will have to cut this because I don't wanna put anyone in danger, but I was very upset yesterday based on some information I got about the current situation here with deportations. But then I was able to laugh at his, he's just so ridiculous.

He's so ridiculous. My mom, I texted my parents about this update and there was a whole flurry back and forth and my mom referred to Trump as DT. Oh, that's what she calls him? I guess, that's the first time I've seen that. She has a nickname. And I got stressed out.

You didn't like it, what would you want her to call him? Just Trump? Yeah, like red. What about Maria, the orange president? If she said that, would that be? That's also fine. But I prefer Trump because DT feels too like, this is YouTube. Inside.

Yeah, she's too YouTube-y. Yeah, she's YouTube generation. And then my dad responded by also calling him DT as a joke. I guess they're doing it as a family. He was, no, his was a joke. Okay. Okay.

It's so weird. God, role reversals. Like it's so weird, my mom being on YouTube like this. Yes, and you thinking she's on it too much? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Like I need to police her screen time. Yes, yes, and you do. I do, it doesn't work because I don't have power.

I had to have a very serious sit down with my mom about her news consumption to her credit, because I also have the opinion your parents are never gonna change. It's always a waste of every syllable. I know. And it's just tension you don't need. Yeah.

But with this sad, my mom was in a state that I felt warranted for her to offer this unsolicited advice. Anyway, she took it and she has like cut her news consumption by like 90%. She's so much happier, it's crazy. I've seen these studies pop up where it's like, they have the empirical data that consuming more news

is worse for your mental health. Like it's directly, yeah. Of course. But it is interesting, we've had a few people on who've referenced older people on YouTube. And it's been like a clicking with me that this is a thing, they're all on YouTube. I bet the growth is exploding,

because they're retiring, your mom just retired, they have time and they have this phone in their hand and now they're figuring it out and good for them. Or dogs, new tricks. I think what's interesting is people are really in the micro details of everything that happens in this country. Like you hear about at some minute,

any convenience store, any state. Now I'm following Iran, Israel really closely. I read everything I can about it that comes out, trying to figure out like what is the overarching game plan. And I'm finding my friends are largely not interested in that. Yeah. And I'm a little, I guess judgmental.

I'm like, this one has real end life on planet earth repercussions. Things affect people differently. I think it's okay to pick your battles. I'm following accounts that like they've, they're on their 11th post about what's gonna happen to the prices of gas in California. And granted, yeah, it's,

we have way too much fucking tax on our gas. It's insane. It's gonna go to eight dollars. And it only punishes poor people. It doesn't, the rich people are gonna go fuck, they're in an electric car. So bad policy, I'm against it. But the notion that you'd have 10 posts about gas prices

and you're not even interested in like a nuclear country at war with one that has expressed a desire to, it's like, there's something very, very dramatic happening and I don't think people are. But they might not be getting served that information. They just might not even know, like, oh, there's, yeah, there's something happening, but I don't really know.

That's my kind of point is like, we're so navel gaze-y. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't make the algorithm. It doesn't make the... That's why everything's fucked up. Yeah. This is the problem. He does create so much craziness

that you don't know where to look and you get overwhelmed. And that's what I'm always kind of raising, that's what I'm trying to raise a flag as like, it's pageantry and it's performative and people are falling for it. Yeah, but it's also not, cause he has people who, like he is, he just says, he doesn't know, he's just saying stuff, he's just saying

what the person next to him is telling him to say. Well, I think he's really great at dropping little bombs that he knows the liberals will wind up the whole machine about. I think he's definitely in on that. He knows how he's playing that. Oh no, for sure, but I'm saying he, but he doesn't really care.

Like do I think he personally cares about immigrants in this country? No, he knows it riles people up. He definitely recognizes, this is the point I keep making, and again, anyone's being deported. I'm not trying to minimize it. It's absolutely horrible.

But it's all symbolic. It's not a net increase in our deportations. Correct. And he knows we can't deport all these people that work in all these industries. Like he also understands the finances of it. He knows about farming, he knows about service and hotels. So now he's in a weird position

where he's trying to backtrack some and it's confusing. Well, he wants both. He wants to put on a play where his base says, yeah, he's going harder than anyone's going after him, which is just not true. But Stephen Miller is not him. I guess that's, he like has people in charge that have real conviction about the thing itself.

And that's what's scary, you know, cause I don't know. Yeah, those underlings will have a longer attention span than him. Exactly. Anywho, back to my mom real quick, because I just spoke ill of her. I love her. I love her. Nermy is the best.

She really is. She's a Southern woman. I love that about her. Southern belle. She is. But listen, I've been thinking about her because we do so much revisionist history in our head about our families and especially our parents, I think. We do so much revisionist history in our head

about our families and especially our parents, I think. And I had all of a sudden this like memory pop up. I don't know how it happened, but I, maybe because ER, AIDS, you know, all of that, I remember that my mom and I used to watch it a lot. Together, yeah, in her bed. And then I was like, oh yeah, we used to watch like HGTV, all the shows, and we used to watch all these things, and then I would make her scratch my arm,

and she would just scratch my arm for so long. And it's so, and I do have, which is so clear, it's unfair. I have this idea that there was like no affection. Uh-huh. But there obviously there was. Yeah. And I think that's really not good. That I forgot. I've done the same to my father.

It's so bad. Oh, and I, when I was home last, I got, you know, I took some old pictures and there's like this picture and I framed it, it's of my mom and with her little baby me and she's like kissing me and she's so affectionate. And I was like. Oh, she loved her little Monica. I know, she still does.

Yeah. It's just very like, you know, you can't trust anything we think. I know. And it's so unfair to everyone in our lives, basically. It's so unfair. I know, I've been trying to think of, as much time as I spend writing in my book,

I spend time thinking of the four word I have to write. Yeah. Because I need to say, like, these are 20 stories of literally 1 million. Yeah. And 999,000 of them were so fun and lovely and beautiful. And, but that's not what stories are made of. They're made of these 20 things I'm gonna tell you.

But it's in general, it's so unfair to my mom and my dad. I know. Because I'm just taking out the interesting bits that happened to be kind of dramatic. Yeah. And the fast bulk of all of it, it was just unadulterated love. Yeah, I know.

And I'm so lucky. Minimally, both of my parents were wild about me. Yeah. And some people can't say that. A lot of people. Yeah. It's very upsetting. I feel bad, I feel really guilty. Good.

Keep watching your show. My sexy show. Yeah, that's stick, focus on that. Okay. Yeah. Someone has a bad mom in that show. Two bad moms. Sure, they're usually a target.

Exactly. I know, I know, I know. So unfair. I know, no good deed. God, all right. Wanna do some facties? Yeah, let's do some facts. All right. Okay, so I looked up why know, I know. So unfair. I know, no good deed. God, all right. Wanna do some facties? Yeah, let's do some facts. All right.

Okay, so I looked up why malls are lit like that. A grievance. Your grievance, yeah. A grievance we all have. Universal grievance. See, when you made it more specific, it made sense. It didn't make sense until you said the changing rooms. Yeah, when you're trying on clothes.

When I use a mall, I'm picturing the big corridor you're walking down, not the stores. Well, it's basically this exact same lighting, and I don't understand that at all. Maybe, how about this is reverse psychology. They want you to feel so ugly that you're like, I have to buy this thing to make myself feel better, and I need something to cover up how ugly

Morphia because what is the incentive to make everyone look bad? I don't know everything's a science now Isn't it like they must know you well it might be part of why malls are shutting down all over the country There aren't very many indoor malls well. I think that's online read That's that's but even the Well, I think that's online, that's... But even the malls, I think, that live are outdoor. Although they still have indoor dressing. Okay, there's a common perception that some malls have poor or unflattering lighting.

And there are several reasons why this might be the case. Strategic design choices, Creating a specific atmosphere. Some retailers, especially those in high-end fashion or those aiming for a luxurious feel, deliberately use dim lighting. No, that's the whole point is that. Oh, this is a good one. Encouraging impulse buys.

Dim lighting can also subtly influence shoppers to prioritize pleasure over practicality, leading to more impulse purchases. I don't understand this, because it's not dim. They're saying it's low light. Yeah. Because that makes you feel romantic slash daring,

throwing caution to the wind, tomorrow never comes vibes. Mm-hmm, exactly. I don't buy that. Yeah, it's a, okay. I can't remember being in a dark changing room. No, never. Fitting rooms, many shoppers report that fitting room lighting can be particularly unflattering,

often due to poorly positioned or harsh overhead lighting that casts unflattering shadows. Okay, so we still don't know why. You just read what you said. Now it's been substantiated. Yep. Yep. Yep. I mean, I then my leading theory is not the cause,

but the effect is that malls are shutting down all over the country. And if they just fix this lighting, I wonder what would happen. You gotta wonder. It's definitely a cost saving strategy. The lighting. Yeah, cheaper to have the shitty standard lights.

Okay, she said OCD overlaps with hoarding. She said OCD overlaps with hoarding. It says yes, they can overlap, but they are distinct conditions. It says hoarding can be a symptom of OCD and can exist as a separate disorder. If you guys missed the OCD episode, that was a really fantastic episode.

Absolutely. And we recommend you go back in the archives. Take a gander, take a stroll. Some have estimated that up to one in four with OCD also struggle with compulsive hoarding. That's a high percentage. I DM'd Olivia to ask her to send a picture of her uncles greased up.

Oh yeah. She didn't respond. Okay. Okay, so let the record reflect. I certainly wanna see that picture. I know. The doc, last days, she said it was called last days of Saigon or Final Days of Saigon.

It's called Last Days in Vietnam. Okay. If you wanna check that out. Okay. Okay, she said Amanda Seyfried turned down a big role and then she said, you know, she doesn't regret it because this is where she was in her life. Now I'm seeing an interview of her talking about

how she turned down, she turned down Guardians of the Galaxy. Who did? Amanda Seyfried. Oh, okay. So I think that's the role she's talking about. Okay, okay. And spoiler, ding, ding, ding. That's all I could say.

Oh my goodness. Easter egg. It's an Easter egg. That was a good one, because I could say. Oh my goodness. Easter egg. It's an Easter egg. That was a good one, because I didn't even know what you were talking about. But do you now? Now I do. It's an Easter egg for an upcoming episode. But also, hold on, I'm gonna play a little bit.

Where a special outfit will be worn. Oh yeah, oh my God, oh my God. Soon we forget. I know. Anyway, it was Guardians of the Galaxy. Great. Oh, the lifetime risk assessment test for breast cancer is at, it's on her Instagram, in her bio,

but it's also magview.com slash bis dash risk dash calculator. If you Google it, just go to the MagView one. Okay, I don't have to take it. I was gonna do it, I don't know how long it is. Yeah, yeah, you should do it. I mean, I'm gonna do it for sure, but I was gonna do it on here. So I just heard someone else's story,

and I just, what I don't like about these stories is, you think it would be detected, but it doesn't get detected. It's really scary. It's a miracle some of these people end up getting detected. It does seem like this is fast because there's just a little questionnaire,

then family history, and then you get your results. Wow, it's crazy that they could know that much off of. I know. I did look up young cancer on the rise. What'd you find? And of course it is. Why are a growing number of young people under 50 being diagnosed with over a dozen forms of cancer around the world?

The trend is especially worrying in women, according to statistics released in January 2025 by the American Cancer Society, which found that cancer incident rates in women under 50 are now 82% higher than their male counterparts, up from 51% in 2002. They said there's no single smoking gun. Environmental exposure or multiple exposures. Yeah. Microbiome. Bad microbiome. Okay, nipple delay surgery. The nipple delay surgery is a procedure performed before nipples sparing mastectomy to improve the blood supply to the nipple areola complex, the NAC. It involves a small incision to separate the NAC from the breast tissue, cutting some of

the connections to small blood vessels. This allows the vessels in the skin to enlarge and strengthen, ensuring a more robust blood supply to the nipple when the mastectomy is performed. She had that. Oh, Kylie Jenner, she mentioned Kylie Jenner because Kylie just came out and told everyone about her breast augmentation. She said she has 445 CC, moderate profile,

half under the muscle, silicone Garth Fisher, hope this helps LOL. Wow, that's a lot of information. Yeah. That's a very specific procedure. Exactly. Beverly Hills. That sounded like a coffee order in Beverly Hills.

I know. Yeah. Okay. Now, oh, Jonathan Tropper is the writer of her show. Jonathan Tropper wrote, This Is Where I Leave You. You were in that movie. I was in one of his, I was in his, I think his first movie that got made.

This Is Where I Leave You. No, How to Talk to a Widower, Everything Changes. Oh, those are books. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry. But no. But no, but still no. Actually, maybe movie, he wrote Banshee,

or I don't know, anyway. Great movie, great book. I read the book before I even knew you. Oh really? And before I saw the movie. Yep. All right. Dems the facts? That is it. All right, love you. Oh really? And before I saw the movie. Ah. Yep. All right. Dems the facts?

That is it. All right, love you. Love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey.