Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Olivia Wilde

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

Olivia Wilde (The Invite, Booksmart, and Don’t Worry Darling) is a director, actor, and filmmaker. Olivia joins Armchair Expert to discuss being raised by war-correspondent parents, growing up too fast on the Georgetown campus, and finding her footing at boarding school. Olivia and Dax talk about learning the wrong lessons in LA audition rooms, leaving The OC to chase movies, and making the jump from directing music videos to Booksmart. Olivia explains why the most personal work is usually the best work, how parenting teaches patience and humility, and why we need to relearn the art of disagreement.Check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds: https://www.allstate.com/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hello. And today we have Olivia Wilde. Olivia Wilde. I'm such a fan. Yes, me too.

I've talked about her a lot on here. I think she's such a gangster director. She directed, Don't worry, darling. The name. The name alludes you a few times in this episode. That I never get right in the interview. Book Smart. She also directed it was incredible.

And then as an act. actor Tron, Cowboys and Aliens' House. And she's a new movie out, her third movie that she's directed, called The Invite, which you and I saw. Love. And we fucking love it so much. And we're doing a little The Invite Week. So this is guest one of The Invite Week.

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takes me he's an alternative ex good Oh, come on now I'm sorry. Hi, he's so nice to meet you. We have so many friends in common. I know.

Start the list. Barb. Barb. Who's Barb? Barb is an incredible hair. No. A terrible dog we have.

I hated that dog. I hated that. Art's the fucking best. Barb. She was so adorable. She had never done the Met. And then she came with me. I was like, this is the whole reason I'm here.

And you looked incredible, by the way. It was all barb. And she was like really giddy. I bet. It's a huge deal. She's a hairstylist. Hair stylist. She's very good.

She got into your mermaid? She has. She's gotten in there many times. You know, Monica was an herbal essence mermaid in a commercial. With the orgasmic, did you have to have like an orgasm? I did not have to have an orgasm. I was a mermaid in the commercial. Oh, you actually a mermaid?

to swim and I don't really know how to swim, so that was bad. Wait. We don't know if I can swim. You don't love it or you don't know how. It's somewhere in between. Olivia, I've observed her swimming, not to not believe women, but she has swam in front of me several times. I'm, okay. You're not confident.

I'm not confident. And I do think if I jumped in, I would drown. Right. You need to be prepared. If I'm already in, I can, like, get across the pool. Right. Right. But the jumping in, I don't want to do that.

So you never swim for fun. It's not like, I'm going to go swimming. Never. Wow. But I do like a pool. I like to like be by the pool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pool culture.

Yeah. This is like how I like skiing. I don't like to ski. I like to apprae ski. You like Aprae pool. That's right. Wait, what's a pre ski? Apre ski is like drinking culture basically.

Yeah. Go to the lodge. It's the lodge life. Yeah, yeah. And it's all the stuff. the actual sport. You know, now that you're saying it, you're reminding my father, who was a drunk, but did get sober when I was in ninth grade.

He got into skiing for a minute because he had a wife who was in a skiing. But really? Yeah, he just loved it, yeah, because he would get all of his gear and then go straight to the bar. Oh, yeah. It's just visit him coming off the slopes. Yeah. It's like golf. I think people golf so they can drink.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what they call it?

That's the golf culture, I understand. I need to start by saying I'm like beyond thrilled that you responded to my Instagram message. I was so flattered that you responded. Right into those DMs. I sent Monica a screen grab immediately and I was like, you are not going to believe it. You what's so funny is I took a screenshot of it too, which I showed Kristen. Because I thought it was so authentic. It was so sweet.

People assume that someone in your position doesn't do any of that. That someone, there's a whole team. No, he doesn't. That's why it is flattering. Very flattering. Oh, oh, me. I thought you were referring to yourself. No, no.

No, no. But yeah, I'm making assumptions. I'm like, you're like a bona fide tour now and you don't need to do press. And there's no reason you're going to say yes. But I'm just going to tell you that I have been for whatever reason, really cheering from afar. I appreciate that. From Booksmart. Speaking of our other mutual friend, Katie.

Katie. Katie, so per bet. Katie wrote Book Smart and don't worry, darling. Yes. Yes. And she's just the best. She's now basically running Netflix. I know.

She is. She's like the in-house writer, producer, extraordinaire, and she's a genius. She is a genius. Yeah. Yeah, so I saw that, don't worry, darling. And Monica and I both. We had a field day with that movie, right? Yeah.

We were so into that movie. And there was so much accomplished in it, visually, story-wise, acting, all of it, the swing, the execution. I was like, this bitch. fucking direct. She can direct. And then we saw the invite. We got to see it. And then I went ballistic.

I don't know if Edward shared with you my feedback from it. He just said that you enjoyed it, which made me so happy. I immediately was like, this is a Mike Nichols movie. This woman made a Mike Nichols movie. Wow. That's so kind of you. That's my actual dream review. And it's definitely the best thing I've ever made.

It's great. I'm so proud of it. It proves everything we've all been taught from the beginning, which is like the more personal something is, the better. Specificity, making something personal, authenticity, taking risk, all those things, and doing something for the process rather than the result. Yes.

All of the ingredients to a great experience that I had known, but only now do I fully understand why that's so valuable. This is a challenge. This is a play. and how will this play be riveting on screen and why aren't I watching it in a theater? Exactly. That's always a question I think. When something is an adaptation,

which this was originally a play, I think the question is always why adapt, why make it a movie, or if it's a book? Like, why not just leave this as a great book? And I think it has to be that the medium you are adapting it into has to be taken advantage of. So, like, what can you show in a film that you can't show on stage

and then you better take advantage of that or else we'd all just like to sit and watch a good. great play. Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf was the kind of North Star for me in terms of inspiration because Mike Nichols took this play written by Edward Albee that had been done to great success on Broadway. Everyone loved this play. Probably isn't the one to fuck with. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's high risk right out of the games. Exactly. And he decided to shoot it in a way that made it so visceral, so kind of emotionally vivid and really bold choices, really making you feel like you were. were getting, in their case, like, drunker with the characters.

The cinematography really kind of took you on this journey, which, you know, sounds so hokey, but it is a real challenge when you're never leaving one set, which, of course, that movie is also in one house. And we were so inspired by that. So the whole crew, we took a lot of cues from Mike Nichols in every way. It was a reminder that we could be just as ambitious with a single set, single location film as you would with an action movie. So we had this extraordinary cinematographer, Adam Newport Barra, who also shoots the studio, and that's where I met him. He's crushing it there.

And shot Club Kid, which is Jordan Firstman's movie that just got bought a can. Adam is just incredible. And then we had this extraordinary production designer, Jade Healy. She's just one of the best. She had done Marriage Story. She had done lots of films that showed that she could turn a space into a character. And so Adam, Jade, and I put our head, And we were like, okay, how the fuck do we make a movie that takes place in one room not boring?

And it became about using architecture to become a barrier in between people, using mirrors a lot, using glass, and creating a very designed approach so that then when I brought the cast in there, I could say like, go nuts, just have fun. Right. We have figured out how to do all this. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's so good.

But we'll get into even more detail. Yeah, yeah. But let's start in New York City. You're a little tiny baby. You're brought home from a hospital to New York City, but you're quickly whisked away to D.C. to Georgetown? Pretty quickly. When I was five, we moved to D.C. Yeah. Where did you live in Manhattan up till five? Upper West Side.

Okay. 93rd and Central Park West. Do you have any memories? I can't tell if I've made them up. I like to pretend that I remember one thing just to traumatize my mom because when I was three, we were walking around Central Park and a flasher. Sure. Yeah. And I definitely don't remember it, but I like to just say to her like, I don't know,

I guess ever since that day, I haven't really gotten over it. Set you on a trajectory, really. Yeah. Yeah. Still kind of deal. But no, my memories are probably all informed by photographs and stories. My sister and I like to also like steal each other's memories. You know, you do that with siblings?

Yep, yep, yep, yep. I'm so curious about how our kids who have photos of every moment of their lives. Yeah. will react to that. Will they have clearer memories or worse memories of their childhoods? Well, I think objectively there'll be more proof one way or another. I'll be more proof, but does that stop us from having to remember anything? Or still creating the story that you want to have?

Right. But you will be able to like check the tapes. Exactly. I think about this with my kids. I'm like, okay, well, let's just start with the fact that they're going to resent something I did. Yeah. They have to. They can't be on planned earth and not reflect on something I could have done better.

Yeah. And I'm always like, what's the thing they're going to pick? Because I'm calling bullshit already in my head. I'm already defensive. Like, whatever thing they think they're going to launch on me. But I will say, the thing that's been sweet, if you had this with your kids where you're looking at old videos, you go to find one picture.

And then all of a sudden, you're in the warm hole of watching Delta say insane stuff. Our littlest one always was saying the craziest stuff. And what is nice, I've benefited from this, the girls will watch it. It's hard to find a video of us where I'm not dancing with them when they're a little baby. Like, I just held them and danced with them. You can't find a photo where they're not strapped to my chest. So I do think that's helped me in that they do go like, oh, wow, yeah, you were clearly always doing the thing, which I like because that would be my whole that they think.

And they will feel like they remember that, even if they don't really have memories of being like one strapped to your chest. They don't think they do, which is so nice. Yeah, they see that they were laughing and giggling as a little baby and I'm dancing around. My parents took pictures as though it was like the 18th century. Every photo looks like it was taken underwater with like a tin type. I don't know why. A daguerreotype. They really did not document enough.

And so we have a few pictures and that all my memories are really based around those photos. And then I feel like I started to remember things, I guess, around like four or five. But, oh, my kids love looking at old videos of themselves. And it's funny because Otis, who's 12. His sister is nine. and everything she does annoys him now, but he has this interesting, like, love for the baby videos of her. Oh, interesting.

He just will sit and watch videos of her and smile. And I'm like, huh, so you do love her. And I have to, like, I have a whole file already. So when he's like, Mom, I hate her, I hate, I can be like, look, look, look, look. Her steps, you remember? Yeah. And when she couldn't pronounce ketchup, you loved that. Yeah, he's like, I love her so much.

There should be some sort of experiment where there's a kid and the mom takes videos of all the good moments and the dad takes videos of all the bad moments. Maybe it's two kids, okay? I have to work. Identical twins. It's always got to be identical twins. It's always got to be against twins.

And if the person that's always getting the bad moments, if they remember their childhood worse than the person who's always getting the good moments. Because when we were little, it was only just like happy pictures of birthdays. Right. Yeah. Vacations. Yeah.

Random happy moments. Yeah. Yeah. Now you could definitely get someone like falling down. And we have proof of them being shitty. So another great thing is like Delta watches and she's like, oh, wow, I was a handful. And we're like, oh, yeah, we loved it. But my God, you were a handful.

That's good. It's good that they can do that. Otis likes to do something where he frowns, even if he's having a great time. The second he senses the camera, he'll do a sad face because he thinks it's really funny that the record of his childhood will look like he was like horribly. He can snap into a frown so quickly. And I'm like, Otis, come on. The pictures thing, okay, could be a little telling because I have both envy and perhaps not envy,

because mom and dad, Andrew and Leslie, are gangsters, the cockburns. They are. They're both journalists, right? I'll tell you something, and there's no way you would know this, it's pronounced Coburn, which I want you to imagine being a kid. Well, of course, I'm curious what it's like to be a young girl with the last thing. It's spelled Cockburn. You're claiming it's Coburn?

It's a Scottish name. Okay. And it is very much like boy named Sue. You know what I mean? Like in character building. I think it's important. We should all give our kids devastating middle names. Yeah, yeah.

Just so that you can grow up with like something to be totally bullied for. Were people burning you for that last name? But I think it was an early important lesson in laughing along, not in a way that was like giving into the bullies in a way. I don't know. I thought it was funny too. I was like, oh, I get it. It's a funny name. That's funny.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not just cock. I mean, there's a burn. There's a verb. It's a painful verb. Yeah. You're hoping it's from Rugburn, but it could be a pan. Yeah, it really could.

It was never. Or a diss. Exactly. Oh. I hear it as like a dis, a burn. Oh, okay. Yeah, there's that too. And it's up for grabs on who.

Is it worse if you're a girl or boy, like to my brother get it worse? He's nine years younger than you? He's nine years younger. And so life was nicer nine years later, a little bit, right? We've gotten marginally better every... I don't know. Have we? Have we?

Well, I'm basing it on. I see kids living out loud every version of themselves in the elementary school. My kids go to and they're not getting destroyed over it. That's true. Incrementally better. In the late 70s, I promise. So that seems better to me. But then again, I don't know just because we're in L.A.

and I'm not in Detroit anymore. But no, my buddy's kids, they're nicer boys. I think having last name looks like Cockburn in any city. in any decade. It's too easy. Yeah. It's going to, in fact, it's kind of comforting, too. It is.

It's like no matter how evolve we get, if your last name's Cockburn, you're going to take it early. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, no, I was so proud to be a part of my family because I come from multiple generations of journalists. And so I grew up with my grandmother, my grandfather, my uncles, my dad, my cousins. Everybody was a journalist on my dad's side. and my mom has this really interesting family too.

They're shipping people? Yes. From Hillsborough. Yes. Very impressive. So she grew up with money, yeah? She did. Yes.

My mom grew up and couldn't be more different from my dad's childhood. My dad grew up in Ireland, had polio as a kid along with his two brothers. They lived a completely, I mean, the two childhoods of my parents. When I have done, like, deep therapy on this, it's been so interesting to think, like, what did they find in common? Right. Well, it seems like this ferocious appetite for the world in documenting and investigating it. Speaking truth to power.

I think they both have a very strong sense of questioning authority and telling stories and... Justice. Yeah, justice. And going to places nobody else wants to go. Yeah. And just living outside the box. And they both do it. I mean, my parents when I was little were work correspondence working in.

working in the most dangerous places in the world, and they'd both go to Baghdad on either the same job or on separate jobs, and they'd go on separate planes, and then, like, stay in separate hotels and meet in the middle of the night. Oh, rendezvous. Ronde boo. Just sexy stuff. And then, like, put on their bulletproof vests and go out to work.

They lived a very cool life, which now I sometimes think about, you know when you come back from shooting a movie, and at first you get home and it's a little bit of, like, shell shock, because you're like, whoa, you come from a set environment, and then you come home, and there's always a day of adjustment of, like, remembering this world. And I think about how crazy,

it must have been from my parents. I come back from, like, Afghanistan. Oh, my God. To me being like, where are my ballet shoes? They must have been like, wow, this is a big change. I've seen a lot of your mom's work because she's both a producer on 60 Minutes and Frontline. I've seen many of her front lines.

Yeah. I love Frontline. Yeah, me too. She did extraordinary things. And my mom was the first Western journalist to interview Saddam Hussein's sons. Basically, her thing was that she could get an interview with people who would not talk to Western journalists. And do you think because they were underestimating her? Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like leveraging that. Oh, yeah. She would also go to places that were more dangerous than other people. And she would sneak a camera under a burqa to go into a place. She was incredibly bold. and she had a lot of respect for the people she was interviewing. I mean, there were some questionable people she was interviewing that she wouldn't agree with,

but she had respect for the process and was incredibly well researched and just very, very curious and smart. And I think that kind of curiosity they both have, and we grew up in this household where it was all about asking questions. And I think that had a really great effect on us. She probably had on a platter, she could have had a kind of comfortable life in San Francisco with rich parents. I think so, though, you know, we live in a patriarchal society. And I think as a woman born in the 50s, she felt that, yeah, there's probably a life she could have chosen that was way different and maybe comfortable, but not at all taking advantage of her intelligence and her skills. And so she left. She was one of the first women at Yale.

Second class ever. Exactly. Women as ever. And she went and then she studied anthropology and she graduated early, went and lived in Kenya for a year. Wow. Then went to grad school in London. Psychoanalyze her. What was going on with her?

I think it was proving herself. Yeah. She was the youngest of three kids. And my grandfather was a wonderful guy, but very old-fashioned. And it wasn't like she was going to take over the company. That wasn't something that a woman was going to. to be given the opportunity to do. So I think she was proving that she could forge her own path

and that she was capable of much more than just being a wife. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She then ironically got married really young, which is funny because I think she was like, I'm not going to be a wife and then, like, married my dad at like 24. But in a way that was really rebellious because he was not the guy my grandparents had envisioned at all. I mean, he was basically the opposite.

He was Irish. She came from no money. It came from this socialist family of journalists who were just very, very, very bold. And yet the families came together beautifully and ended up really blending and loving each other. How was it decided whether they would live in Ireland or live in the U.S.? I don't know if they ever thought they'd live there? Because you spent summers in Ireland, right? Oh, yeah.

We spent like every time we weren't in school, we were there, which was great. And I actually, as a kid, felt just as Irish as American. Wow. And you have dual citizenship. I have dual, yeah. I actually have triple. British Irish. Well, don't brag.

Yeah. You know? Let's just cap it at Irish. Were you in Northern or Southern Ireland? Southern Ireland. So it's a Republic of Ireland, very, very different. Yes. Yes.

Especially then. Did you come back home with the accents? I'd come back with an hour. I mean, how insufferable. It's embarrassing. Just the worst. It must have been so annoying. And I feel like my sister still does it.

I mean, she'll kill me. She comes back. She lives in London now, but anytime she comes back from Ireland. I'm like, oh, no. Don't worry. We're not doing this. But my parents did a great job of making us feel culturally, very connected to our Irish roots. Also, when you're a kid, I think your personality is forged in the summer.

Yes, absolutely. Like, that's who you are. There is an Irish rascallyness. Yes. I just don't know what else to call it, but where I'm from would be white trashness. But in a prideful, wonderful way. Oh, absolutely. I mean, when you are a country who were the victims of such unbelievable oppression,

for hundreds of years. And really, they tried to wipe out the Irish. They were treated horrifically. And I think that will never leave the Irish spirit. There is a survivor. You see it in like the Australians, too. That's why they're such badasses. They have this.

A little chip on their shoulder. Chip on their shoulders. You can't really mess with us. Like, we will survive anything. And I think the Irish have that. And it's a great attitude you see in all Irish artists, too. Like I ended up going to acting school there. in Dublin when I was older.

And I loved that the attitude towards acting in Dublin was so humble. Like, you go see a play in Dublin and then you'd go have a drink with whoever's the play afterwards. You're like a tradesman. It's a tradesman.

You're a crafts tradesman. You're not a star. No. And it's like humiliating to even think about it that way. And I think there's a respect for things much bigger than yourself. For instance, like we come from this little

fishing village. And for a long time in that village, the fisherman didn't learn to swim. You'd love it. Oh, my God. I couldn't be so accurate. And the idea behind it was that if the ocean wanted you, it would take you. And now, you know, it's different times.

People learn to swim. And luckily, far fewer people are drowning from this. But I always thought there's this respect for things more powerful than yourself, this understanding that like the ocean and nature. And then there's just a humility to people there that I really deeply respect. Okay, now. So the upside of your parents is like, oh, I'd love to have. parents that interesting, that engaged, always bringing home topics.

But also, these are very involved in their own life's parents. Yes. So, like, when you said the picture's like, I'm not shocked. There's not a ton of pictures. Yeah. What's the tradeoff? They're pretty self-consumed, I'd imagine, to have those careers. You know, they were, but they did something that I try to learn from where they were very

social people and they brought a lot of that to our house. So it felt like this kind of salon all the time. You know, there were all these interesting people around and they brought us into that. Sit down and have a conversation or listen to this conversation or be a part of this. So we felt connected to their work and their lives because they took us seriously as little people that bridge the gap between these very full careers that did take them away a lot and being at home, that they incorporated their lives into the home life in a way that I have to remember to do all the time. Sometimes I think people think you have kids. And so that means that when you're with your kids, like you don't go out. You just hang out with your kids.

Yeah, yeah. But I read this interesting thing about how your kids learned to socialize from you. So observing your social life is an important thing. And so you have to, like, bring them to things and kind of like bring the party home. We just had an expert last week I was talking about, yeah, this phenomenon of the last 40 years where it's like most kids had to go with their parents to the hardware store. They had to go with their parents to work on a day and sit their board. Yes. Like the amount of times you had to.

And then just comparing that with hunting and gathering. society who are almost always, you're not joining the kid's world, the kids joining your world. Yes. Yeah. And they're learning so much. I see my 13-year-old all the time just eavesdropping on me and my friends. And I love it and I don't care, but I can see how interested she is and what's going on. And it's so great. And she's learning so much from the way you interact. I used to crawl under the dining room table and like lay down under the dining room table during their dinner parties and just listen to the hum. And just listen to the home. and listen to their conversations

and think that they didn't know I was there, although, of course, they did. I wasn't very good at, like, crawling quietly. But I think it's true, and every time I see how close my kids are to their friends, I feel so proud that we have modeled for them this idea of your tribe, your friendship community is being super important.

Yeah. Now, with all that said, did you ever long for, did you have a friend whose mom was always at home when you got home from school and she had made shit? Oh, totally. I also used to watch like sitcoms and almost fetishize the suburban environment because we lived in the city. The whole idea of what felt like the nuclear family at home and parents home every night eating dinner with your parents. It was so foreign to us.

Right. And so I used to just watch hours of sitcoms and just think like, well, I want that. And I did have a friend whose house I spent a ton of time at whose family was really sweet to me. And it was the opposite dynamic is mine. But of course, all my friends wanted. my parents. Yes, exactly. My girlfriends would just sit with my mom

and she would take them seriously and take their dreams seriously. And that was kind of the superpower she had. For me, when I was young and I was like, I want to be an actress. It wasn't like, okay, sweetie, every little girl wants to be an actress. It was like, okay, where do you want to study?

What career do you admire? You need to then watch these great movies with these great actors, like took us seriously. What's the game plan? Yeah, and just in a way that just reflected a kind of respect and a different way of thinking that I think a lot of my friends weren't finding in their home. So they'd come over just to feel that vibe. Yeah. Do you think maybe though you could have been adult too young? Were you like precocious and do you think

you maybe missed out on some? Oh, I thought at like 12, I was like, why am I still hanging out with all these like children? Right. I need my own apartment. Do you like older dudes? Oh, yeah. Like how bad? Oh, I mean, I grew up basically on the Georgetown. campus, which is a terrible thing. What a smorgas for. And I would just walk around and try to make up different majors that I could say that I would have. And I don't even think I looked older. I just in my head. I was like, obviously very mature.

But I remember when I had braces when I was 13, I told orthodontists he had to take them off because it made me look young. Yeah. And he's like, you're 13. You're young. Yeah. But I know I was like getting tattoos at 13. I was a terror.

They sent me to boarding school because I was a terror. Okay. I was going to ask about boarding school because. Because again, it's hard on to get judgmental here. I have a friend who just don't, no, no, I just, I have a friend who just told me he sent his kid to boarding school. And I'm like, I can't comprehend it. Yeah, well, I can't either.

Like, I'm already in in inact that they're leaving in five years. I know. What are you talking about sending them out now? So I just can't relate. And I recognize it was a totally different time. But anyways, how did you end up in boarding school? It's just so funny because, like, I went to boarding school and I would never send my kids to boarding school.

Yeah, there you know. Which is no disrespect to the people doing it. And like my sister's setting her kids, I think they love it. I mean, her one son is there. The daughter will probably go and they love it. I had a hard time. My sister went, my brother went after me. My brother went to my-

She's five years older than you? She's five years older. And he's nine years younger. Yeah. My mom had kids in her 20s, 30s and 40s. Wow. So funny to run the whole gamut of like experiences with motherhood in different decades. You guys all had such different childhoods probably.

Completely different. Yeah, because I'm sure your mom, after 14 years of experience with your brother. Totally different. But I think, okay, boarding school, here's my take on it. What did you do that had landed you there? What kind of naughtiness were you up to? The way my mom describes, I didn't think she said I would have, like, torn the wallpaper from the walls. I was just so completely uncontrollable.

I mean, I don't want to say uncontrollable because I wasn't, there are far worse cases than mine. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save. you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your gas gauge before hitting the road. You genuinely thought you could make it.

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I was cagey. And I couldn't, I mean, there was no curfew that I would take seriously. Were you partying? Was it boys? Was it shoplifting? It was partying, but not in a, like, drugs and alcohol way. It was like, I couldn't understand. that if there was a concert, like, so at D.C. was a big music town.

Sure. And so there was the 930 Club, which was an iconic music venue. And the idea that I wouldn't be allowed to, like, go see any show I wanted and stay out and go and hang out, I couldn't fathom that kind of boundary. Yeah. And I like to think that it was me just, like, wanting to plug into everything a little too early. But really, as a parent, they must have just been like, she's going to get herself in trouble. Yeah. She's going to end up pregnant or in jail.

I'm really happy that I went away because I think I just would have grown up way, way, way, way, way too fast. Also, D.C., it was a fun town, but for a 12, 13-year-old who thought she was 24, probably not the safest place. I will say, too, I remember Kristen and I went to, like, the correspondence dinner, I don't know what it was, eight years ago, 10 years ago, whatever it was. But I had not been there since I was in high school and went to the 930 club. And then on an earlier trip with my mom where we stayed at this last. like fucking gunshot motel across the street from a greasy people. Like, it was a shithole. Marion Barry was freaking crack on TV.

And he's the mayor. Yeah, we had the highest crime rate in the country. Yeah, so I think when people go there now, it's that same chasm between New York when I was a kid and now. So you go to New York and it's like it's like Disneyland. You feel like you're in Europe. It's so clean and beautiful. Every storefront's nice. But yeah, DC used to be a shithole.

Now it's so nice when we were there for that correspondence thing. I'm like, this place is Eden. It's so nice, despite what Trump likes to say. It is incredibly nice now. And I think that it was also a time where it was impossible to, like, track your kids. It was, like, checking in from the pay phone, which, by the way, now when I think about

how much we used pay phones, like the idea, for me, it's just like the bacteria. Ew. That's what I think about. It's like how often we were just, like, snuggling up against the phone. You could smell it, too. You could smell it.

You first got on it, the receiver's smell. Yeah, this is gross. And then 10 minutes later, you're like holding up against your cheek. You've forgotten everything. Checking your picture. Smoking your picture. It's touching the thing.

Pager, Bravo, too. Oh, the Pager. Yeah, I loved it. But I went to a boarding school, it was very nice. So I didn't get sent to, like, reform school. I went to a boarding school that had this unbelievable theater department, which to me was extremely exciting. In D.C. I went to GDS, Georgetown Day School.

It's a great school. The theater was, like, in a gym. They did their best. But Handover, where I went to high school, had a main stage theater, several black box theaters, studio theaters. They had a student theater producer program so you could learn to produce plays. I produced like 12 plays in a year.

Oh my God. It was like college. Like college. I was so lucky. And this is in Massachusetts? It's like beautiful. It's beautiful like Jeffersonian architecture in the suburbs. You can imagine it.

This attracts. This is like global, right? Yes. It's like a very fancy private. It's very fancy. Did you have crazy classmates? I did have crazy classmates. I mean, it was a lot of people who've all gone on to do very impressive.

things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say most of the people there, they were very focused on, like, going to Ivy's and becoming, like, Titans of Industry. I found my home kind of with the theater kids. Do you covet any of that wealth? Clearly, people are taking, like, private jets to Aspen for spring break and shit. Well, the cool thing about boarding schools is it does equalize that.

So even though you'd hear someone, they had crazy, opulent lifestyles. But in boarding school, we were all in shitty dorm rooms. And it was like, this really puts us all in the same boat. And it was co-ed? It was co-ed. So you could have lovers. Oh, yeah. It was all about like making out in the stacks.

But now I'm like, do they even have libraries anymore? What do you do? Where do you make out? They're also designing all these places to be safer against sexual abuse, which is a good thing. But it really hampers how much. Yeah, where do you make out? We were trying to get more of that. Yeah, we just had an expert on the architect.

Yeah, yeah, like book stocks that are low. Oh, my God. All doors have a windows. You can be caught and be observed from a hallway. It's all great stuff. Wow. But again, where on earth is one? Where does this one?

Where does that go out? Exactly. You can't do it at home. But it's amazing how kids will find a way. Of course. Isn't that nuts? Like, we're all just animals. We are.

We are. And it was like, you know, you had to leave your door open and sign people in. But everyone was escaping in the middle of the night and running across campus. It was all that. So you liked it. Then you got accepted to bard. Yes. But you delayed.

to delay delay. Oh, yeah. I deferred for like three years. I met someone later in life who had been there when I was there who said that I was the most requested roommate because they knew that I was never going to show up. Oh, my God, that's funny. So it was like, oh, you're going to get a two-room single. Yeah. So you were kind of a legend and you didn't even go. Yeah. Of course, now I'd love to go. What sounds better than college now? It's the best. Read books and then talk about them in groups. Debate in class. Oh, it's so good. I would pay a lot of money. And you can. And you can. going in retirement back. What would you study?

Probably physics. Oh, cool. What did you study when you were there? Anthropology. Oh, very cool. Yeah, that was really fun. I have a fantasy of just picking up degrees as I'm an old man. I tell myself I would study neuroscience, but I think that would involve such a foundation

of like mathematics and science that would take maybe like 18 years of college to get me a degree. Well, that would be the beauty of it. Like, you could just take classes. You could skip organic chemistry. You'd be like, fuck that. I don't care. I'm not going to practice. You can take like everything online.

All those classes are online now, which is amazing. Yeah, but it's all about being in that classroom. Yeah. I love any opportunity to sit with people and debate things and talk about like any kind of book club, movie club. Yeah. I have this fantasy about starting a debate club, like debate club dinners. Because I think we've lost the skill of disagreement. Yes.

And like discourse. And my favorite thing was debate in school because You had to learn to argue. That's right. Other person's opinion you take. Which is such a great skill. So don't anything be fun if you came to debate club dinner and under your plate was your position that you had to argue.

And it is probably something that you don't believe at all. But you now have to argue that. I love that. Oh my God, I love it. Will you invite us? Let's do it, yes. I am committing fully to this dinner party. Me too.

Because my hobby is forcing myself to mount a really solid argument for something. I don't agree with. I love it. I go, okay, I feel this way. Now, I have to sincerely imagine I feel the other way. Yes. And most of the time, if I take the time to flesh that out, I recognize everyone has a pretty cohesive opinion and they're pretty well-intentioned and I just disagree on the best route there. I do think that's how we have to respect each other. It's like this notion that we're not friends because we don't agree on something or that we can't talk or that I can't have you as a all that stuff is so corrosive and wrong. It's only becoming worse with social media and everything

because I think now there's this curated socializing that's happening across generations. We don't gather if we don't know who we're going to be with and what their opinions are and what will be discussed and we can be reassured we will all have the same opinion. Yes, we're safe. There's no real kind of randomness

that allows for the opportunity for you to be in a conversation. with someone who disagrees and for that to be kind of great. Yeah. And also, I also think just as an ethos, people think their goal is to end their conversation and convince the other person to think like them. And I would just urge and beg people. It's like, actually, it's so much more rewarding to leave a conversation with a totally different.

We just had someone on. We had a schizophrenic on who tried to kill his father. Wow. And prior to that conversation, I had such a hard and fast opinion. I'm like, all these people who are schizophrenic or any of these bipolar, like, take your fucking medicine. Why does everyone go off their medicine and then go on these big, you know, and it's just frustration with that. And then through talking to this person for two hours, I was like, oh, I totally get it. And I definitely acknowledge there are a lot of people that maybe

the medicine's not the solution for them. Or it's yet one of a thing. I don't know. I love going, whoa, I won 80 on that. Yes. And that's lovely. I think that curiosity is such an incredible trait that you have and that it is something that if we can just get people to see the value in it, Like you said, it's not about convincing, but it is about learning. And it can be super frustrating when it comes to many things. But like when it comes to politics these days, it's frustrating because you feel the stakes are so high. Yes, you're convinced. If you lose this, someone's dying.

Yes. And that's just not the context for a good conversation. Everyone's arousal setting is just like fucking pinned and cortisoled out. Debate dinner is good because if you're handed your topic or your stance, then you can really do it without emotion. Exactly. And like go hard on it. So if I had to do like the moon landing was faked. Right. And you had to be like, listen, the flag was waving. Exactly. Or like you just think of like all the things you've heard. But then really have to dig in. Yes. It allows for it to become an exercise that I think just works a muscle that we've lost. 100%. I love that. I think it would be.

I'm in. Me too. That's how we started our friendship. Debating. We did kind of put a pause on some of the debates. It got to everything. political, everything. Yeah, we had to. Well, again, things get emotional. The closer you are with someone, the more stakes, as you said, and like the more emotions come into play where it's like, you don't even trust me or you don't hear me. Yeah. That's the sweet part of the motivation, underpinning it is we don't think if someone thinks differently than us, that we can coexist or love each other or be there for each other or be friends. So it starts getting scary. Like, wait, you think that about that? Can we even be friends is what you're thinking, which is preposterous. But I think that's where we've gone.

That's what I think when my kids argue with me over something, as opposed to, I think we were raised, or at least I was with like a don't talk back rule. And for me, it's like, oh, they're learning on us how to debate, how to argue with people out in the world. So if they say like, well, I don't want to brush my teeth or I don't want to do my homework or whatever it is, as opposed to like, do as you're told, Yeah, yeah. It's like, let's train them to be better. So sometimes I'll be like, you've got to make a better argument than that. Yeah.

So we're the same. I'm constantly like, I'll lay something out. I know they're not going to like it. Yeah. And I go, okay, counterpoints. I always go counterpoints. Love that. I really think that even the hormonal spikes that cause them to be more volatile,

that that is the training ground for later conflict. So that it's like, okay, I'm glad it's me you're arguing with because. You know, I love it. you. Exactly. And I think about that, particularly, I think it happens to boys too, but for girls being around like 13 and then there's this idea that you become enemies with your mom. Now, my mom and I definitely had some battles, but I'm kind of relishing the opportunity to have this. And Daisy's only nine and she's like the nicest person in the world and she's her to have this. But I think of it as like, yes, let me train you in this. I'm not going to tell you not to argue, but I'm going to make

you better at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I reject. that they have to do a certain. I loved my mom the whole goddamn ride. That's good. I was delightful to her. My father's, my poor father has to deal with all the generic. I know, I know.

Yeah, but boys definitely, I just took Otis to Japan, just us for a week for spring break. And it was like the best week of my life. I was like, I didn't know it. Couples trip could be so delightful. It was really sweet because I realized he was giving me, like some activities

were definitely for me. We went like meditated at a temple with a monk, which is not something he would have suggested. God bless him. He got through that at 12. He did it. He came and, like, meditated and learned. Afterwards, I was like, did you love it? He's like, I mean, no, but I can tell you about it. You could never get a dude to do that.

No. On a trip with a dude on a vacation, if he didn't want to meditate, if he went, you'd hear about it the whole fucking. Yeah, I'd be like, I did this for you. Yeah, you owe me. We also just laughed so hard. He's really into manga, and we went and took a class, like drawing class, manga class. What's manga tell me?

Oh, like Japanese anime drawing. The class was entirely Japanese, and we were pissing ourselves laughing. Sure. Like, trying, like crying, like hiding our faces and looking. Every time we caught eyes, we just laughed so hard. And at one point we had to draw each other, which was the funniest thing in the world

because he drew me in a way that was so hilariously weird. And I drew, I thought, like a perfect depiction of him, but I'm not at all good at drawing. And we were laughing so. hard. He knew that that was me doing an activity that he loved. He felt so, I think, like, just really seen and respected. But then at the end of the day, every day I'd be like, okay, Rose and Thorne, like, what was your favorite part of the day? And he would surprise me by saying, like, I liked walking through the cherry blossoms with you. That was really fun. And I was like, what? Like, in L.A., he would

never be like, oh, mom, I'd love to go for a stroll in the park. But it was like a whole different, on the other side of the world, when it's just us, the rules were all different. And he also just kept spontaneously grabbing me and hugging me, and you like, I love you so much. And I was so happy. I was just, like, flying high the entire time. Did you always know you wanted them? Yes.

You did. I didn't, like, fantasize about motherhood in the way that a lot of my friends did, but I did always know I wanted kids. I didn't realize how fun it was going to be, though. It's way better than I could have possibly imagined. And I think every stage of it, I love more than the last age.

Now, of course, when we look at those old videos of them as babies. I know the babies. And I was working a lot when they were really little, and I'm like just destroyed with guilt about that as like so many of us are. But I didn't realize that it was a friendship that was so deep, it's so profound and so fun. That is different than what I imagined it would be. Yeah.

I think for me it just exposes a lot of the limits I have given relationships. Really? Because they're just a product of my undying commitment and devotion in unconditional love. And I do wonder how many of my relationships could have been, and not just even romantically, just if you treated people the way you treat kids, I do wonder what the sky is. That's so interesting. For relationships. Just don't think you can.

It's a biological. Yeah, I don't know that you can. Yeah. But it does, it introduces you to your own capacity for love, patience, empathy, forgiveness, All of these things. Selflessness I didn't think I possessed. Yeah. I think I was pretty honest about my selfishness.

And so I was like, I don't really know I saw this level of it coming. Also, it humbles you so completely, like brings you to your knees in such a real way that I think that is something that just makes you definitely a better person. But in relationships, being humbled is a very important thing to have been humbled. Yeah. And I think to understand your own frailty. We all need to. But parenting does it different. Okay.

We have to get back to the overarching story of your career. I'm going to ask you the questions Leslie asked you, which is after you do the acting school in Ireland, and you come back and you get yourself on the O.C. Which is really quick. Yeah. And before then, I was a casting intern. And it's so funny.

I wonder if you ever came into our office. It's highly possible. So many of my friends now, I like served coffee. What would you also read or no? Oh, I would read. I mean, that was a little bit higher than my pay grade. If I was really lucky, if other people weren't in the office, maybe I'd get to read. But I was really low.

I would bring you coffee and water, and I would kind of keep the sign-in sheet and, like, just be behind my boss at all times. And she was Mally Finn. She was one of the best casting directors in the business, hardcore. She did everything from like Titanic to David Gordon Green movies to like 8 Mile to The Matrix to Elephant. And I got to just observe and learn everything in that office. That was in L.A. That was in L.A.

First, when I was 16, I came out for a summer and I worked for her for like four weeks as an intern. And then I came back when I graduated high school and worked again. I was like, can I do another summer working for you? And most cast directors will not let actors be interns. Because you're like a spy. You could easily like steal material. I don't know. And you can just feel that you want to be auditioning.

She was like, you should go and auditioning. audition. And I went and got this pilot, which was for the show called Skin, that was a very short-lived show on Fox. But it was like a ridiculous experience because it was like my first audition for a pilot. Then I got it. Then it got to take down. Is this when you were wearing the wool turtleneck? And she was like, you got to get realistic about your fucking outfit. Yes. I came from like a Northeast boarding school. So I was dressed like a professor. There was like a lot of corduroy and wool. And she was like, what? First of it was 95 degrees and I took two city buses to work.

Oh my God. I'm going to ask. I have to ask it and I know it's going to be so hard to answer, but you're so beautiful. Oh, thanks. You're so beautiful that. Were you trying to downplay that you were fucking beautiful? No, because I did not feel beautiful at all. In fact, coming to L.A., I don't know.

Does anyone get to this town and feel beautiful? I was like, this is crazy. The first waiting room I sat in as an actress, I was like, ah, I got a good. go. This is a different species. I think that it took me a while to understand that what made me, I guess we all kind of go on this journey, but like what made me different was good and I didn't need to try to make myself look like the other girls, but I really felt unattractive. You did. I was like, they all really knew how to dress. And again, the aforementioned turtle neck is indicative of what my vibe was. I dressed like Johnny Lee Hooker. I wore a lot of vintage. I look back

I'm like, you were cool, girl, but at a time. I know. It sounds cool. But it's hard to get on, though, see show when you're dressing like. Yeah. And my boss, Malie, was like, what are you doing? Go change before you go to your audition. But I also saw the bad side of that where we had girls come into the office to audition where she would turn them around and be like, no. She'd say, did you think I was a male casting director? Actresses would show up in outfits clearly designed for male directors. Some casting couch. Yeah. And we had directors who would be really unspecific about what they were looking for just so they could meet every hot actress in LA. And we were like having to read hundreds of girls and then none of them were right for it because he didn't know what he wanted.

So I learned the bad side of that really quick. I definitely just felt such imposter syndrome. And I remember a casting director early on when I went to an audition told me I had a pie face. Oh, tell me what that means. But she kind of said it in a way that sounded like she was trying to be nice. Oh, you got a pie face. She said something like, you'll be fine. And you've got, I think she might have said apple pie, pumpkin.

There was maybe a flavor attached to the pie. But I think she was trying to say something nice. I took it as like a hideous. Flat face. Maybe it was apple pie and it meant all-American. Yes, maybe that's what she was saying. That seems. But I just felt, oh my God, when I think about the drawer of push-up bras that I had for auditions

because I thought maybe that will help. And it doesn't. And it's so sad. Being a 19-year-old going to auditions is rough. and you're just like driving to the deep valley to go to this reading with like a thousand other girls. I was inclined to think you might be like Lake Bell, who I worked with on the show forever and we're friends. Yes, I love Lake. And what I realize is that Lake is so hot her whole life that she liked to date ugly guys.

Like, you know you're so hot. She did not say it like that. No, I called her out on it. I'm like, I think you, like, you know it's cool that you'll date ugly guys. And she's like, she kind of knows. And I'm like, that's like, that's like, that's like. you know you're so hot that you don't even need the validation of the hot guy. Would you date the hot guy or the ugly guys?

It's been a real range. It's a real smorgas for. I think you're quick. I'm really hard to figure out the common denominator. I felt like such an outsider always because as a kid, I would go between the States and Ireland and Ireland, obviously super weird outsider. American kid showing up in the summer is weirdo outsider. Then back in the States, I felt like an outsider because I just felt like we were different.

Family was different. Coming back and forth, different. Then boarding school, total fucking. weirdo. I felt, again, even just with clothes. I, like, had never seen such preppy clothes. I felt like an outsider there at the N.A. So I never had the thing of, like, I'm so attractive that I... I'll date a three because it looks punk rock. Just to even it out. Yeah. That's not why she did it. That's really funny. We'll call her in the fact check. Their personalities were good. And so, yeah, she's not just going to date somewhat hot just so that she feels hotter. She doesn't need to feel hot. She wasn't

I'm trying to compensate for something through. She was not susceptible to a higher status person validating her, which is a real unique. So that is a date people she really like. Yes. Who often you're like, wow, that's cool. She's with that too. Right. I was calling like it is.

Don't look into her. I love it. I mean. I am in my head. But does anyone, it's an impossible? Wow. I mean, talk about humbling. I think about all of our friends who went through that cattle call experience.

And I'm like, it's actually great because being rejected that much does something very good to your character. Yeah. If you live. If you live. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. You live. You are not unscathed. And what's great is we all have our unique version of why it was terrible.

And it can't be all true, right? So my issue was I would go to the commercial audition. And it's like, that dude's bald. That guy's overweight. I'm not goofy enough yet I'm a comedian. So this is what I'm supposed to get. I don't look goofy enough to play the guy at the muffler shop. It's crazy.

Then I might go to the attractive shit. I'm like, I am not nearly good looking like these guys are. I thought like that too. Caught in between categories. I wasn't character-looking enough and I wasn't handsome enough. I'm like, what are we going to do with this? Yeah. And then you realize that that is exactly what makes you so special.

Takes a long time. Yeah, if you're lucky. Yeah. Okay, so who though were you at that time wanting to be career-wise? Did you have a North Star? I wanted to be Catherine Keener, which is why I got the job as a casting intern because I read that she had been a casting intern. So I was like, I will emulate that experience.

Yeah, yeah. And I still want to be Catherine Keener. She's a good role model. Have you become friends with her? No. Have you ever met her? I met her once. And I think I said something like, oh, I've modeled my life.

She was like, okay. Here's a compliment you'll never be able to accept. Exactly. You don't have one. he was supposed to say in return. And she was very sweet to me. So you wouldn't be like in indie movies and do cool things? Yes, completely.

Okay, so then when you get on the OC, were you like grateful, but this is the opposite of what I'm trying to do? It was funny because this is very classic me. To not understand what I'm getting into and then be in it, I had no idea how big that show was when I joined because I think I joined the second season. Josh Schwartz was like,

do you want to come and do the show? Well, first he said, do you want to come play a bartender? because we had a lot of musical taste overlaps, like we knew each other through that kind of world. And I remember I was talking about music a lot. And then he said, come play a bartender because we'll have real musicians are going to come on the show and perform in the bar, the bait shop.

That was the sales pitch. Yeah. And I was like, absolutely. And as a joke, I was like, only if I get to make out with Misha Barton. And he went, who told you? Oh, my God. For real? I was like, Josh, I'm in.

But it was so fun. Everyone was so great. We had all these amazing musicians around and it was so fun, but I did not know how big the show was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And after the first episode aired, I was like, wait, what is this? And I remember Adam describing at the time, anytime he could like sense teenagers in any place he was crossing the street to get around to walk around anybody who might be young. And I quickly understood what that meant.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you interface with Ben McKenzie at all? Yes, I loved. He was so sweet. to me. We met him for the first time a couple weeks ago. He was a crypto expert. He was on our experts. Yeah, he's really smart. And I left that going, I think that's the smartest actor I've ever met. Yeah, he always was. He was always very unactory. Yes. It just felt like he, in the best way, was doing it for fun. Yeah. Which is great. He belongs in the Austin State Assembly. That's his heritage.

Like, he's supposed to be doing that. Yeah. Okay. So then you quickly get on, or by my estimation, pretty quickly. You get on House. Right. Were you replacing Jen Morrison? Not really replacing. Also joining a show late. Season four maybe? Season three.

Okay. It was like expanding the cast. And then we were all on it together. That show had such wide reach in a way that I had no idea. And even now, anywhere I am on the planet, there's a house fan. So I've never liked one of those medical shows. And I loved House. Yeah.

Because I love Hugh Leroy. The whole thing was just that. Were you fucking smitten with him? Is he smittenworthy in real life? He is so smittenworthy. Smitworthy. No, he's so smart. He's like a crime novelist.

He's had all these careers. Yeah, and a motorcyclist. I loved him on Jeeves and Worcester, and he had done all sorts of interesting comedy in the English comedy theater world that I was obsessed with. Meeting him, oh, I mean, the dreamiest dreamboat, and so gracious, and had all these kids around him, really.

that he was so sweet and encouraging. And we spent a lot of time together. I mean, that show... We did, like, 19-hour days. I think the show went eight years. I did, I think, four years. Four years. And then I started doing movies in the off-season.

I had a deal with them where I would get paid less, but it meant I could go do movies. Yeah. It was really nice of them to let me do that, but I knew I couldn't stay. And it was because the hours were... I mean, poor Hugh. The dialogue he had to fucking mess.

He had my favorite quote about acting with an accent. Someone said, what is it like acting with an accent on that show? And he said, it's like everyone else is playing with a tennis racket and I have a salmon. It's so perfectly like evocative. He's so good. I learned a lot from him. And yeah, we were good, but we're buddies. He's the coolest.

You got to get him to the debate dinner that we've committed to. Yeah, yeah. It would be fun. Amazing. Now, okay, so you booked a pilot, then you booked. booked the OC, then you booked this. You are booking. Well, there's like stuff in between, you know. I went back to New York. I did like an off-Broadway play and I did indie movies. While I was doing the OC, I did this Nick Kesevedi's movie called Alpha Dog, which kind of had a lot of the people

from our generation in it. That movie was crazy because it was about a murder that had happened in LA only a few years before. It was a real story. And the real guy was on the run. And the movie initially ended with like, he is the youngest person on the FBI Most Wanted list. And by the time the movie came out, I think they had found him in Brazil. Whoa. And then they reshot the ending to incorporate his capture. Wild experience. Well, also Nick Cassavetti.

So this dream you had of being like Catherine Keener, this is the right vehicle. But did it deliver to your romantic notion of it? Yes, I loved it. I felt the experience of being on the O.C. And being on the set of Alpha Dog, and I was like, I want to do movies. You want that. And so they very kindly offered me a chance to stay on the O.C. were to leave and I left to go make zero money.

Yeah. So you're booking stuff. I was super lucky. I was super lucky. No, I mean, I think I still have imposter syndrome. Maybe it's starting to wear off. Well, yeah, I would hope. I think that I was gaining confidence, though, by that point.

I think I started like I was earning my stripes. But at that point, House really changed things. She did Tron on the off season, and then she did Cowboys and Aliens. Oh, yeah. This is like moving and chugging. Once you were in Cowboys and Aliens, I was like, okay, I'm now aware. Making Space in my mind, there's a new movie star. That's nice.

In a way, if Cowboys and Aliens had done what they thought it was going to do. By the way, you and I have had a very shared experience, which is rare, which is I did his movies, Zethora. Oh, yes. Fabro. Yes. It's the best movie I'm in. It's a phenomenal movie. So good.

Everyone's like, well, everyone just wait for the $500 million to arrive. Exactly. And it just never came. So you and I are probably in the only two underperforming Fabro movies. Totally. And also, like, Tron, they thought it was going to be like the biggest thing that it had ever been. I think it's very healthy to have these experiences because it just showed me that nobody knows anything. You don't know what's going to work and you better love the experience of doing it.

Cowboys and Aliens had every brilliant person in it. And Favreau is so good and we were produced by Spielberg and Ron Howard. And it didn't work. And yet the experience was the most fun I've ever had. Was it? Oh, good. Yeah, it was like riding horses with. Daniel Craig was Han Solo. Yeah, it was literally Harrison Ford and Daniel Craig and me and Sam Rockwell, who became one of my best friends. A lot of champ, huh? Yeah, truly the best human being we have. And Paul Dano, another amazing guy who, when I was a casting intern, he was the only really nice actor who would come in and not bitch at me for the fact that they were waiting too long for their audition. Everyone else treated me like low-level staff, except Paul Dano, the nicest person in the world.

Then being able to work with him on Cowboys and Aliens, we just had the best time, Walt Goggins. Oh, my God. Walked hogg and saved my life on that movie. What happened? He did. I had a very bad horse accident and he saved me. Basically, we were galloping across. I've ridden horses my whole life.

I have a lot of confidence with riding English style, but this was Western different. And we were at that point, like two months in and we'd gotten real cocky with it. And we were pretty competitive. Oh, boy. And it was me and Daniel Craig and Harrison Ford galloping like full sprint across the desert. Oh, boy. with like 40 horses behind us. Oh my God.

And it was like, we were like leading the charge to fight the aliens or whatever. And, you know. Whatever we were doing in that movie. We got to a part where I could see ahead of us that there was a large ditch, like a six foot ditch. And I was like, this horse is going to jump that ditch. And I'm on this western saddle, no helmet

because I'm playing like an old-timey lady. Yeah. Spoiler, I was actually an alien. Oh. You find out of it yet. I know everyone's seen it, but still. So sure enough, this horse, jumps and bucks me off in the craziest way.

I felt if I hit my head and my back and I was laying, but unfortunately I was on the other side of this kind of lip of dirt. So meaning that the 40 horses behind me couldn't see me. No. And there was a lot of dust. No. And I remember having my ear to the ground and I could hear it, and it sounded like thunder like they were coming towards me.

And I had the thought, it sounds so dramatic, but I thought it'll be quick. Yeah. It'll be like pulverized applesauce out. Oh. And I was waiting for it. it to happen and then Walt Gagans had seen it ahead of him and in a split second thought to turn his horse sideways right in front of me and let everyone kind of bash into him. And he's a great writer

so he was able to handle that and people split the two sides around us thinking he had just like gone insane but he was protecting my body on the ground. And so I owe him my life. It's crazy. Wow. He's a real life hero. He is. He didn't even bring that up when he was on the show. He's probably done it to so many people. He saves so many hot women.

He probably saves three women on his way here. He does not save men. That's what people don't know about him. He lets them go. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. Okay, so I guess I want to fast forward now to Book Smart because we've had you for a while already, even though it feels like five minutes. I know things lead up to it, right? You direct a music video for a band, I don't know, but then you do a chili peppers.

So, yeah, I did Edward Sharp with Magnetic Zero. There we go. And then the Chili Peppers was my first big gig, which I only got because a brilliant director named Mark Romantic, who is all-time music video director King. He also directs movies and television shows, but he famously directed many nine-inch nails videos, Michael Jackson. He's the top. The Scream video, which is still the most expensive music video ever made, Michael and Janet.

But he was supposed to do the Chili Pepper's video and then he was directing me in a show. We did a New York called Vinyl and HBO show, also short-lived. Also, one that everyone was like, this is gonna be like. Also, the second thing you did with Juno Temple? Yes.

I'm obsessed with her. Love Juno. What a fucking powerhouse. Oh, has always been. Since she was like 16, and I met her on Year 1 and knew that she was going to be a superstar. Then we did vinyl.

Mark Romantic directing an episode of vinyl. Here's me talking about how I just want to direct, decides to throw me his gig on the Chili Peppers video. He's like, you should do it. I'm going to tell them they should hire you instead. He gets me that job. I go direct that, time of my life. And then I took myself seriously.

I was like, okay, I want to do more. And directed a short film. You did the glamour thing, right? Exactly. Through a grant, which is the only way people can really get going is through some sort of grant program. Then Book Smart came about and I was so lucky. Do you have a real point of view?

I mean, I guess it's as simple as that. How did you get to that point that quickly? Probably the most valuable acting lesson I learned from working for Mallifin, my casting director boss, was that the person who got the role was one who made the choice. Someone who came in and with a choice, a choice that risked being the wrong choice, but a perspective on the scene. And people who came in and just tried to be sort of vague. Give you what you want.

They never got the job. So I had learned this lesson that made a lot of sense to me. And I think with directing, it felt the same. Tarantino says, make the movie only you can make. And I think it's really true. It's like, don't even try to please everyone. Make it really specific. Because it's going to be your obsession for several years.

You're going to be married to this process and you have to really, really love it and have something to say. And I think with Booksmart, I felt so passionate about telling a story about shame and judgment in high school and female friendships and the intensity of that platonic love. I felt like I had so much to say that it, felt effortless in a way because it just felt like a place to put all these stories and opinions and ideas. And I think that all the high school movies that I grew up loving, I mean, really

Book Smart was really heavily influenced by both Days and Confused in the Breakfast Club, which those two movies really raised me. What's nice about it is there is a, this kind of came up with the invite, too. There is a shared language of when it comes to high school and adolescents that people are are very fluent in. So you only have to reference certain things. For instance, a high school bathroom and, like, stalls. All you have to do is, like, show that. And people are like, I got it.

Yeah. I got it. I know why that's scary. I get everything involved. And there's that shorthand with the audience. And I think that's why something like a high school movie happens with anything that's like, okay, buddy cop movie, hospital show, relationship movie. There is a sense of like, got it. There's a shorthand.

Short hand. It was like an opportunity. to lovingly poke on everyone's trauma from adolescence. And it was, ugh. Did you have a soulmate in the boarding school that got you through? I've always had very close friendships and really always had like a group of girls that were my sisters. And certainly in boarding school, I had a tight group. Also, we lived together.

I mean, you couldn't have gotten closer. And before then, I had my ride or die. And I still have those relationships. So I think I was pulling a lot from that. I also formed this incredible friendship with Katie Silberman who wrote the film. And we really felt like the two characters. So much of those characters is modeled after our dynamic. And Beanie and Caitlin were starring in the film.

And they would often just say that they would look over at us and sort of be. Check in with what they're playing. It was like a film about friendship being made by people in this intense friendship. And it was wonderful. It's so good. It's in the 90s. I covet this. I've never been in a movie that had 90s.

some plus rotten tomatoes. Oh, I mean, I also made one that has like a 35. Yeah, that's all I make. Yeah, yeah. If they're about 40, I did something wrong. Alas, you made it for $6 million. It made $25 million. This is fucking premium start.

Thank you, darling. Don't worry, darling. That would have been a better title. It's always been a hard. Don't worry, darling. That one, it's a major departure from that. Totally. That.

And so what inspires that? I love psychological thrillers. Name a few of your favorites. I mean, Hitchcock as the master of all psychological thrillers, I love Vertigo. It was always my top. But then I grew up loving The Sixth Sense. I also loved Stephen. Seven?

I loved Seven. That's our movie. Best of all time. Silence of the Lambs. I had a library in my room when I was a kid of all, like, horror fiction. Like, I loved scary stories, ghost stories. I, as a kid, loved, like, Tales from the Crypt. Yeah.

I love that creepy little guy. I loved goosebumps, like those kind of books. I always had a fascination with that genre, and I was fascinated by the kind of like early rumblings of the manosphere. Oh, yeah, it was kind of in-cell-inspired, right? It was like the beginning of the in-cell culture. Disturbed by in-cell culture meeting technology in a way that I was like, ooh, somebody could take advantage of that and put us back into this time.

And obviously as a metaphor for what's happening, which is like putting ourselves back into an era where women are stripped of all rights. And I think it preceded. I wasn't really thinking about trad wife culture yet because that wasn't happening. It kind of popped during late COVID. Yeah, exactly. And this was smack in the middle, November of 2020 or September or something. Yes, exactly. Okay, so the fun things about this, well, I just loved it.

We had this extraordinary crew like Maddie Leiboutique who shot that movie is such a gangster. we made that movie for $30 million. It looks like a $100 million movie because of him. And because of Katie Byron, our production designer, we were also shooting in Palm Springs and in L.A. on stage, but during lockdown, it was crazy that we were even outside. And this crew worked so hard on this movie together. And it was this Herculane effort to build this world and this time.

And for me, getting to do car chases and a six, Porsche and it was just like a catnip, catnip. I mean, I really just want to shoot car chases. I really just want to get hired to do like Fast the Furious 27. Most exciting thing for me on Don't Worried Darling was that the stunt team, who were our stunt drivers, I realized at one point that I wanted them to be in the movie because we were about to go hire actors. The stunt guys were going to double the actors to drive.

And I was like, why don't you guys just be in the movie? Yeah. And they were all so excited. and they gave it everything. I had to keep reminding them that they didn't have to hide their faces. You know, stunt guys hide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Femously, that's what they do.

And they were all so brilliant, and they gave these great performances. And I was so happy when the stunts category was added for the academy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the whole business is built on their backs. That's a fucking movie, by the way, fall guy. Oh, I love it. Do my kids have watched it 25 times?

I think it's a perfect film. And then the director of that film was our stunt coordinator on Tron, David Leach, and taught me many things, including what to do if you ever fall off a high bridge or building. I'm going to tell you guys right now because it's important. You have to make yourself into like a tilted line. Put yourself at an angle because if you go straight down,

your spine will shoot up through your brain. Because we were shooting on a really high bridge and he's like, okay, if you fall off. And I was like, what? And he's like, if you fall off, just try to land at an angle. And I always think about it. That feels impossible. Collect yourself. Take a minute.

Learn a lot about aerodynamics. Okay. I'm fine. Yeah. Pull your toes. Yeah, point your toes at an angle. But I love stunts. I loved shooting those stunt sequences.

Oh, blowing stuff up. Anytime I was at work and I was like, are you kidding? It's the best. They need to blow up the 6th Street Bridge. Fuck. You think you're an adrenaline junkie? Yes. Okay.

Maybe from your parents. Yes, totally. The idea of like, are you really alive if you're not experiencing something at like full tilt? Okay. Now, I went back and some of the stuff I read was you doing press around. the time of thank you darling. Don't worry, darling. I like this retitle.

No. Why is it thank you, darling? Thank you, darling. It's much more gracious. I've been doing a good job until now. Don't worry, darling. And you impress everyone so much. And then it all falls apart.

Yeah. Isn't that the fun part for you though? It's like when will I fall off the balance beam? And now I'm off. Yeah, yeah. I'm all at an angle. Okay, don't worry, darling. Yeah.

At the time, I could tell you were sick of talking about. Like, people are making a big deal of the sex stuff. Yes. But I'm here to tell you that was great stuff. It was worthy of talking about, like, Monica and I, we both saw it. We were like, oh, do you like? Yeah, I loved it. Almost on Q, the dining room table scene?

Oh, yeah, we loved it. I had wanted to shoot. That was like a scene in my head for so long, the idea of basically turning the idea of, like, a feast into like. Yes. Like, I love food so much. It's really just me bringing food into every possible scene. I think the notion of, like, showing up to the. the table. Like you're going to devour.

Yeah. Yes, it's wonderful. And I also was really passionate about like showing you like female pleasure. I wanted it to be about that. But obviously, yes, it overtook the conversation in a way that was a bummer because there was so much else to talk about. But here's a fascinating conversation. There is some tricky obscurity with feminism and sexuality in film because clearly women were objectified for a long, long time. And then clearly that's a cause to confront. And then also like Feminists are fucking sexual. You want to see sexual fantasies.

Yeah. There can be this weird balancing act, I feel like if you're feminists, like, are you betraying feminism by having nudity, which I don't, I reject? Right, of course. But there's some weird tension there about how you do the female-driven, sexy fucking movie, which I want you to do without any stress. Well, I know we both love Esther Perel. Yeah.

And I love how she writes about how there's nothing very politically a correct. about eroticism. She talks about women's sexual fantasies and allowing for them to veer into a territory that is not something that you would necessarily ever experience in real life or that you feel is like politically correct in how you think things should be. But your curiosity, your imagination is allowed to veer into that territory. You might want a power dynamic in your life. Exactly. They want a different power dynamic when it's time to find. And I love that she writes about how like it's so important to let your mind go to these places. And Jillian, and Anderson compiled an incredible book of female fantasies called Want, which is a book of

anonymous fantasies from women around the world. And all you learn about the woman at the end of each fantasy is like what they do, where they live in, if they have kids or not. And it's a lot of, like, powerful women who have fantasies about being objectified. Yes. As there are these powerful men. Yes. I made a movie about BDSM culture last year, and I learned so much about that. And it is all, like super powerful men who on their lunch break go to the dungeon. It is true that when it comes to sexuality in film, this question of like, are you making the problem worse by showing women in any way? Is nudity and female nudity a part of the problem or solution?

And this has been written about for many decades. And Gloria Steinem wrote about like self-objectification. There's so much to think about with it. And I think it's the way it's done is always what. makes the difference. But I think for a long time, we weren't even seeing female orgasms in movies. It wasn't a part of it. It was all about the man. So I think even that feels a completely unrealistic female orgasm, which is Michael Doug is such plowing you from behind about any warm up. And two minutes later, you're screaming and actually. Yeah. It's really training men

unfairly. Yeah. Slam a girl against the wall. Terrible. Terrible expectations. Yeah. She's like, buckle up for the orgasms. She's like, thank you. This is all I need. But at the same time, movies are allowed to be a fantasy and kind of the idea of it. It should be your fantasy, by the way. We just need both parties making their fantasies. So it's equal. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't want to see males get rid of their fantasy or females. Exactly. I want everyone to like explore a little bit more. And I think for that movie, I was like, I just really want to focus on it being about female pleasure and that that was actually part of this male kink. This world was about men who have created a utopian society for themselves. And I was like, well, what happens to female pleasure within that? These were topics that were very interesting to explore. They had to be explored.

That's fascinating. Okay, now I have directed Kristen in scenes with a male lover. Yeah. And I'm fine with it. I think for the male lover, Josh D'Mell in this case. Oh, I love Josh D'Urne. He's the sweetest guy. He's perfect to have your wife hook up with him something.

Yes, he is. But I remember just being like, I felt like I needed to be extra smart about that dynamic. To make her feel. An actor has been brought in to make out with my wife and I'm directing the thing. Yes. Did you feel any of that weirdness? Oh, and don't worry, darling. Yeah.

No, no. That wasn't tricky. Okay. My thing is, and maybe this comes from being such a theater nerd as a kid is like, once you're kind of in that dynamic of making something, making a play or a movie, like everybody becomes part of the same effort to just like make it as good as it can be. And I feel like that eliminates a lot of the anxiety

that exists in a regular sort of dynamic. I do think that particularly when you're directing it, I remember we had to have the camera spun around very slowly during the scene or she's on the table. And Maddie, the DP and I are just standing at the camera. And we're like, is that glass in the way? Fuck the glass is in the way. Move the glass.

No, okay, get away for the glass. Like we're just looking at what can be seen. I think that any sort of weirdness and nerves around what's actually happening are eliminated by the obsessive focus on the shot. And like making it work. And I was so happy with how it was all looking and feeling. I felt so proud. I was just like, we fucking nailed that. We're not in like the 1940s anymore.

Our kissing. I do appreciate when people really go for it. Well, you can feel, think about it. We can remember these incredible, like the fucking Tom Cruise, Kelly, Top Gun, Makeout Senior. you're like, let's go. I mean, nine and a half weeks was a huge influence. You can feel real passion, just like you can feel any emotion. And like you said, like the stunts we try to make them as real as possible, why wouldn't we go for it?

Yeah. I think as long as everyone feels great, then it's awesome. That's the nuance of the whole thing. That's the nuance of the whole thing. Because when you're friends, it can be so funny. Like Sam Rockwell and I, we did this movie called Better Living Through Chemistry where we had to have the craziest sex scenes. It was like a montage. And it was so funny.

Like, we would just cry laughing because we were two good buddies. Yeah. The idea of thinking of each other in a sexual way was just so ludicrous. So I think sometimes it's harder when you're best friends. You were talking about when you got to direct one of the incredible things was recognizing, oh, you can design these situations differently. Yes. And in particular, you were talking about a closed set.

So there's an illusion of a closed set. Right. Historically, which means they're going to clear out everyone that doesn't have to be. in the scene, and then you're going to rehearse in private, and then you're going to have a minimal crew to film the whole thing. But in your experience... So often, it was not really a closed set.

And there's all these little sneaky monitors that are around. Like, there's a monitor on the sound cart that just always mysteriously stays on. And it was when we were shooting Book Smart, we're shooting a scene with Caitlin Deaver and Diana Silvers, and they were in a bathroom together, and it's like a sexy scene. And I was so fiercely protective of them.

Of course, I shut down every monitor. And then we had an amazing crew, but people don't realize that a close set can be even more closed and can really be closed. And in the defense of the crew, let's also be honest, all of its white noise,

like they got to run cable, then they got to throw the dolly. It's not even like, they're not paying attention to any of the scenes. So they don't even know that they've wandered into one that's sensitive. Exactly. Yeah.

They're like, I don't know what's going on. It depends on the comfort of the actor, too, because I did this movie last year with Cooper Hoffman, this Gregorocky movie that basically I play a Dominatrix in that one. It's called I Want Your Sex. And that movie, I would, like, get up in the middle of the scene, basically naked and walk around to the monitor and be like, hey, guys, do you guys think?

Because I just felt comfortable with it and I at that point had no nerves about it. So some actors are like, it's fine, I don't care. And they can feel like it's weirder if everyone gets weird, which is a thing for some people. So it's like based on what they want. But I do believe that the value of being an actor who has turned into a director is that you can empathize with every part of the experience from when it's cold and they're the only freezing. ones that everyone else has thick winter coats on to the sex scenes, to bringing them in too early, to not giving them enough time to prepare. So I like to think that that's like the value of having been in their shoes is that I can make particularly sex scenes a little less weird.

I have a quick question about that movie. Well, it's funny. I had drinks with Katie recently. And she was talking about, I guess maybe we were talking about fame sick Lena's book or something. And we were talking about how things get very blown out of. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She specifically referenced that movie. She was like, it was so crazy because there was all this stuff around it and all this crazy, quote, drama that was not real. Yeah. And she, as the writer, was like, I don't understand how to tell people that it's not real. Yeah. And you're at the center of a lot of that. How did you handle? Were you like, I hate everyone? You come to realize that it is so far from reality because it's about clickbait.

It's about selling tabloids. And, okay, a long, long time ago, I remember Jen Garner giving me advice when I was just a baby actor, and she said the thing about this business is that you get unwillingly sort of cast in the soap opera of the media. Once they cast you as your character,

that is your character. And that is the narrative. And it really has nothing to do with you, but it exists. And they will keep it on the way that, you know, one life to live, stay on for 150 years. And that was such a great advice because it allowed me to understand the separation between reality and what the media presents. And I think we all have lacked like critical

thinking when observing tabloid stuff because you're like, oh, snap. It's also, by the way, the world is so overwhelmingly difficult and grim. And when you can sink into a juicy tabloid soap opera, it's a lot more fun than thinking about how difficult the world is. And so I I was aware that we had been kind of turned into this tornado of drama that had so little to do with reality. Yeah. And that nothing was going to change that. Like at one point our crew wrote this letter, like this beautiful letter, basically said. That's what Katie said.

Signed by the entire crew being like none of this shit that you're saying in the press is real. Like there was no fighting. There was no drama. And we all had this great time. And the crew did that on their own. Yeah. And like, nobody cared. Exactly.

Because it doesn't fit the narrative that's being set. It's not as fun. I know, but it drives me a mess. Oh, yes. It's maddening. And I think that having a healthy understanding of what that is and that it's a machine and just understanding that is essential, I think, to surviving in this business. But for that movie, the heartbreak for me was that the crew had worked so hard on this

movie. And we were so proud of it. And we, like, never got to talk about the movie. Yeah. Because it was always this, like, other stuff that was just fictional drama that titillated people. And, I mean, I get it. Like, shit's rough. It was COVID.

Yeah, it's true. They wanted juicy stuff. It was hard. Life is hard and tabloids feel like junk food and you're like, don't tell me that it's not good for me. Like, let me eat it. I don't care. Don't tell me that the flavor isn't real flavor. Yeah, it's artificial flavor.

It's so good. It's red dye. Don't talk about the red dye. Just let me enjoy my twizzlers. I have the moment where I'm at an airport and I look at the cover of a magazine and it says Ashton and Mila are getting divorced. And then I literally go. I was with them three weeks ago. They seemed really good.

Could this be true? It's on the cover of a magazine. Right. Because on the cover, it must have some... Yeah, like, did I miss something? Right. They're fine. They've always been fine.

I know. They're just not going to get to... It's also, it's impossible for them to keep up with the need for so many more stories. I mean, these tablet people have to come up with something every five minutes. They're in the same content inferno that we all are. Yeah. Yeah. You've got to shovel it in there.

Exactly. Okay. Okay, so the premise of the invite, it just got tastier and tastier. Because thank God I didn't know anything about it, which is lovely. That's good. So at first I'm just like, okay, I'm meeting this couple. It's you and Seth. Yes.

Seth Rogen. Seth Rogen. We love Seth. But it starts with a quote. What is the, it's an Oscar Wild quote about being married. Yes. One should always be in love. That is the reason one should never marry, which is very cynical.

I put that quote in there because it, I think, represents the perspective. We were talking about earlier of like a director having a perspective that you feel. I like quotes that contextualize the kind of director's perspective. It's like the same thing when you read a book that starts with a quote. I'm like, all right, I see your kind of. Yeah, your vibe. And the movie is both romantic and cynical, I would argue. It's both romantic and cynical.

And then also, because it's Oscar Wild, it's like an astute observation that's also clever and funny. So you go like, oh, I can kind of say this rough thing, but I'm also putting it in a package. is that it's still fun. Yes. Yeah, so we meet you guys. And although I'm not in one of those relationships, I'm so aware of how easily all relationships fall into this. Yes.

And that relationship being one that has, I would argue, slid into a kind of rhythm of resentment and a complete inability to hear or see one another. Yes. And you are just sort of coasting along on like inertia and obligation. And your partner now somehow is the cause of every malady you have. Like you're not responsible anymore for any of your suffering. Completely.

You should fully on your partner. Yep. That's where we start. And that's so fucking funny and you're immediately great. You guys are so good together. Do you know him? I knew him only a little bit. When he asked me to come and do the studio and I came and did an episode and we had so much fun together,

he reminded me that I had actually screen tested for Knocked Up. Oh. Oh, wow. A hundred and seventy thousand years earlier. Great movie. And I was like, oh my God, that was our first time acting together. And I'd been a fan of his forever. But we'd never really gotten to play.

And so the studio was immediately so fun. And we recognized something in each other right away. We were like, wait a minute. We have a real fun time finding a rhythm with each other. You're after a similar thing, maybe? Maybe. Yeah. There's a similar goal to the way we approach it.

And he's a genius for so many reasons. He's so sensitive to the audience's experience. He can feel what the audience is feeling at any moment. So putting this movie together with him, he was so helpful in reminding us at all times as we kind of workshop this script together of how the audience would be feeling. And within a scene that you're improvising with him,

he can feel where it needs to go. And it was so fun. But like, the thing that I'm so proud of is that everyone knows that's a genius. Everyone knows he's one of the funniest people, smartest people, so stylish. This movie, I feel very proud. of him in the way that he, I think, has shown an additional dimension, which I call

Sad Dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's so good at playing someone who's kind of hit midlife and it didn't work out for him. He plays a guy who was in a band. He didn't work out. He didn't work out at the beginning of his life. Yeah, and he's living off his parents legacy. Like a real fucking loser.

He feels an incredible imposter syndrome within his relationship, within his life. He lives in the apartment that he grew up in, his parents' house. He's bottomed out and he's reached this kind of like numb space that he has decided to settle into and he may settle into and live in forever. His wife, who I play, has hit a similar place of dissatisfaction with life, but is way more anxious about it. I was going to say it is the yin and yang you often see play out, which is like the dude just bals out. Yes, surrender. And then the woman gets so much. anxiety and it's trying to control every fucking thing.

No one's prospering in this dynamic. And then we meet the neighbors, which are played by Edward Norton and Penelope Cruz. Yes. I mean, Penelope Cruz. She's so powerful and she's so beautiful. Oh. And so. Why does she look like that?

I know. It's unfair. Do you know she has a twin sister? No. Identical or fraternal. Go stay who are them? Ferturnal. I don't want to get that wrong.

We'll check. But she just has this incredible warmth to her and this power. But I've never felt anything like it. I mean, I knew that I was in love with her, but it really was taken to new heights. All of us. And the chemistry that she's able to create with a house plant, like she can do anything. But she and Seth genuinely had amazing chemistry. It was so fun.

Everybody on set. Because one cool thing about this movie is we should. shot it in order. The crew was more invested than they typically are because they were watching it play out. So they were like, oh, oh, what's going to oh, oh, no. They would watch the rehearsals and, like, clap at the end

rehearsals, like kids watching a theater production done in several different bits. Like, they were so invested. Everyone was feeling like, wait a minute, Seth and Penelope are in love. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was. And maybe they were. They were in love, and you heard it here first. It was so extraordinary

to see the parents. of two very different actors just like, boom, clicking. And, man, I mean, she just is unlike anyone else. The fact that she wanted to do the movie, I felt like I was being punked. Yeah. Tell me, how did you get her and how intimidated were you to guide her? First of all, on our Zoom that we had, she read the script written by Rashida Jones and she loved the script.

It was also based on a Spanish movie? Yes. It was based on a Spanish movie called The People Upstairs, which in Spanish was called Sentimental, and that was based on a play. And this play turned into a movie in Spain. It was also made into a movie in South Korea, in Germany, in Italy, in France. It's a very universal premise. We got sexy neighbors upstairs.

They're coming over for dinner. What will happen? How will you handle that if your marriage is falling apart? I love the idea that every culture has this basic question, and every movie is very different. And so Rashida and Will wrote the English version. And then we approached it in this really fun way, which I'd never done before. It was always my dream to shoot it in order, shoot it on film, workshop the script together as a unit, the writers and the cast for two weeks before we shot the film.

And then to continue workshopping it as we were filming. That's sort of like high-intensity adrenaline that I love, the risk involved was that we would, I suppose, go off the rails and lose the tether of the story. And yet with these people, I knew we were safe because we had some of the best storytellers in the business putting their heads together. And I loved that we were taking big leaps. And we were making it more and more specific. So like, we would approach every scene and think, how can we make that more personal and more specific and more unexpected? I mean, the example I think about a lot is that big little lie show. When we got into that twisted relationship with Alexander Scars Guard and Nicole

Kidman, I've never been in that dynamic. But what I could sense was, oh, this is the real dynamic. There was a level of specificity. And the way the pattern and the cycle went was like, oh, I get the trap of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can see how people are trapped in this. And it's just through how specific it really was. Yes, I think that's when the actors are allowed to infuse. real experience into the performance into the characters. And that takes writers who are really open to a process that is not traditional. Because we were taking the script far from its original structure and making it more and more specific to these actors and their choices.

We were thinking about it as we went. We were very careful to make sure that everything set up in an authentic way what was coming next and that everything that happened would all. only happened based on what had happened before it. So like we would finish a scene and then say, okay, well, then tomorrow's scene, we have to rewrite it because it would never happen that way anymore. Right.

Because we've already crossed that boundary. We played that beat, so now we have to do something different. So it was like constantly engaging in the process of workshopping the script as we went along. We didn't know how it ended a week before we shot it. Whoa. We had an idea of the intention of how we wanted to end, but the way we wanted to do it, Seth and I felt really strongly

that we would actually not say very much in the end. And anyone who's ever been through an experience that sort of creates an eruption, a conflict in a relationship, knows that sometimes the speechlessness is the most devastating feeling, which we were so passionate about the idea, like people who are very quick to be snarky,

you know things have shifted when they actually can't say anything. If you can be speechless, like some shit's hit the fan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because fighting, you're still engaged. Yes. You're fighting. You're at least fighting for it. in some way, but when you're done talking, you've resigned. You're done now.

Yeah, exactly. This pause on the battlefield and it's like, oh, no, this is different. So we were able to do that because we had this group of unbelievable. I mean, I've never felt anything like this dynamic. And I can't believe that I got to act with them, which was not the original plan. I was not supposed to be in the movie. I was putting all these ideas in front of the cast of actresses who could play this part and all incredible people. And they kept like not getting back or like not answering, not coming up with the decision together. And I was like, well, guys, we got to figure it out. And then they got together.

And then they came to me and they're like, we want you to do it. The three other actors. And I was like, yeah, right. Weirdly, I had the confidence to direct Edward Norton, but the idea of like acting with Edward and Penelope. I was like, are you kidding me? I can't. Not me.

And Edward was the one who was like, you obviously are telling the story for a reason. Yeah. And maybe you need to play this character. But who do you think you were in that quartet? Like, who am I in real life? Who are you really? I am a combination of all four of them, for sure. I have the kind of like resistance to social situations like Seth's character.

The idea of a surprise dinner party in my house is my personal hell. Okay. But I have some of the like people pleasing anxiety of Angela. In my dreams, I want to be like Penelope's character. So I think I have the aspiration to have the kind of wisdom of Penelope's character. And then Edwards' character. has this incredible ability to have reinvented himself and this kind of almost infant-like openness, this sweet kind of openness to change, which is something that as I've

gotten older, I've learned. I'm a combo of all four, I think. Now, there's a very fine line between a mutiny and collaboration. Yeah. Because Edward was telling me how much of it you guys all did together, basically. And so I'm imagining myself directing that. boy, I want just the right amount of them helping. And then it has to be a singular vision.

I do believe a director has to bring to bear us. And I think actors want that. They want to feel there's someone driving the ship. So how are you navigating the line? It's like, okay, that's enough ideas for the day. I know what I want. You guys might not think this is the thing, but I know that this is what I want. They were all incredibly respectful of that exact thing, of the need for it to all.

You'd be deferred to ultimately. So they would give me many ideas and then allow me to kind of say that one feels right. That not so good. Is that hard for you to say that one's not the best? It's interesting. I think initially I just wanted everyone to feel really comfortable giving me every idea. It was like giving me everything, opening it up. But then I knew by the time we shot, I was like, at this point, I'm going to start kind of pruning the multiple ideas and say like, we're going there.

But they also really respected that and would say like, what do you think? What do you want? I mean, it was so surreal for me the first day. Edward was like, what do you think? How do you think I should approach this moment? I was like, oh my God. All I could see was like primal fear. Yeah.

You're so good. They're all such professionals that they just understood that I had a very, very clear vision. It was not specific to how things would play out in scenes at all. I knew that was going to be a full discovery. But I did have like the intentions always in my head. And so they would check in to be like, is that fitting the intention that you have for it? Does that feel right? And that was so, so professional of them to always kind of know that.

They're all filmmakers, too. I mean, they're all directors. So that helps. It was so far from a mutiny. It was a complete collaboration. I've never felt anything like it. It was like we were all in rhythm with each other. I hope Edward tells you the story,

but he'll probably be overly humble about it, so I actually want to tell it, was there's a scene where his character tells a story. His backstory. His backstory. It's so good. And he came up with that entirely on his own, and I didn't hear that until we were rolling cameras

because there was nothing there before. And we needed a ramp and a moment. emotional ramp to take us from one place to another in the movie. And to shift the weather in the room. Edward said, I have an idea. I want to tell story. And he said, do you want to know what it is? And I said, don't tell me because I want to hear it on camera, which he couldn't believe,

especially because we were rolling film, didn't have a lot of money. And I said, just tell me, like, roughly how long so I know what kind of mag I need on the cameras. He was like, do you think maybe you could have two cameras that day, put them on you in set so we can film your real reactions? and I had no idea where he was going to go with it. And he started telling the story that was so different than anything I could have imagined. And I just burst out crying, thinking about this.

He was telling the story. It was so powerful. And he's so good. He's so convincing. You're like, good. This is a real story that's happened to you. I believe it. And Seth is having his completely different reaction, which is perfect for his character.

It was such a gift. And now that's one of my favorite scenes in the movie. Oh, it's incredible. And everyone was doing that. Esther Perel's very present. in this movie. Esther was our consultant on the film. Okay.

I mean, there's even direct quotes that Penelope is saying. Oh, yes. Esther's whole perspective is like her. Yes. Penelope basically plays Esther. Yeah. Had they had a friendship prior to this? No, I introduced them.

Well, they feel perfectly matched for one. Oh, my gosh. I know. That's the podcast that I need. I need them to link up forever and ever. Penelby had heard of Esther, but she had never met her. And then I introduced them on Zoom, and it was fire. and Penelope and Esther then had long conversations about the character.

And every time they had a conversation, Penelope's character would get more specific. And I could feel her like slowly like morphing. Because Penelope in the movie is not at all Penelope in real life. She is just such a good actress that you'd believe that's exactly her. She is the sweetest, most kind of adorable, giggly, hilarious. But she's not Esther. And that is a huge testament to her talent.

And those direct quotes you're talking about, really they became like goalposts in the film that we were kind of working around these philosophies that we cared so deeply about that we wanted to be able to hit. So it was like making sure we could justify getting to that place in the conversation. So the whole idea of, yeah, you can have a new relationship with the same person. When I first heard her say that in a TED talk, whatever was, almost 20 years ago, that blew my mind. I had never even considered that concept. It's so beautiful. It is, yeah. This relationship is over.

You may have another one or you may go your own separate ways. Right. But a new one or no one is what's next. And allowing for that, that maybe that's something that can allow people to change within a relationship and let go of resentment for maybe things that have happened or the person you just don't want to be anymore and that you're allowed to reintroduce yourself to each other and decide, are you in love with who your person is today? Exactly. Would you like to meet them where they are now?

have a relationship with them now. Yeah. It's so hard for people. Yes. Of course it's hard. It's hard because I think it takes a lot of courage to get rid of that resentment that is in some ways convenient because it takes away the agency to have responsibility in your own life. It's much easier to be like, ugh, this is old ball and shame.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone's in a relationship that the only flaw is the other person. Exactly. We were just talking about this last night. So many people have this notion that there are not two people doing the exact same thing. I mean, Esther talks about people come to couples therapy like they're doing drop-off. Yeah.

Fix this person, please. Thank you. And she's like, uh-uh, this is a 50-50 thing. This is a system that you guys are both in. Yes. And you're both playing roles in this system. I mean, mating in captivity. That book, when Esther released a 20 years ago, because now it's a 20-year anniversary.

And she's reissued it with a new forward. And it's fascinating. And I think it's required reading for anybody in relationships. Or just listen to her podcast, too, which is so mind-blowing the way she can just drop in to these most horrific scenarios that couples deal with and like navigate it perfectly. Did you hear the one she did about the guy who's in love with his AI? Oh, yeah. So I started listening to that one.

It was recommended to me. And I was having a hard time understanding the guy of the rough connection. Anyways, but yeah. It's wild. And it's so crazy that Spike Jones made her whatever was 15 years ago. Which you were in. I play the like nightmare date with a human that really makes him think it'd be better to be with an AI. Yeah, it might just be easier.

Yeah. Push him over the end. Yeah, he's like, nah, I choose my phone. But I think that the way Esther takes that relationship apart, and by the end of the podcast episode, you actually think you're listening to a couple on a couch because she keeps inviting the AI to share. Stop.

She's like, Astrid. She's so fucking open-minded the way she approaches this whole thing. Yes, that's the thing. It's open-minded. I know. Like, my answer seems to be like, dude, as convenient as this is, you got to have a human partner. But she's curious about, is he getting what he needs?

But when I asked her about it, she said, people can live without sex, they can't live without touch. And that that guy, when she asked him, what do you miss about having Astrid be human? And he said, I just want to cuddle on the couch and watch Netflix. Yeah, I mean, this is so relatable. So relatable. And that's the thing.

The universal experience of like, how do we survive in relationships? That's what's been so interesting about taking this movie out now to audiences is people connect with it that I didn't expect to connect with it. like young people. We're all middle-aged people in this movie. There's like 17-year-olds watching the movie and they're like, oh, that's me, that is me. And I'm like, what? Yeah.

I was talking to these college kids and they were like, yeah, I felt really relevant. I'm like, really? That's fascinating. Now, were you nervous at all that this is going to open up so many questions about your stance on marriage? Are you open to that? I'm interested in all those questions. And what was really fun is that everyone making the movie has completely different kind of relationship histories. And Seth and I, as the main couple in the film, you know, Seth has been with Lauren

for 20 years. They are doing it their own way in a way that I just so respect. They respect each other as individuals. They admire the hell out of each other. They are best friends, but they still have this really sexy dynamic. They're nailing it. It was really interesting to put him in a relationship that only made him more clear on why he was so in love with his wife and why. He was like, Oh my God. People live like this. Bickering and not having sex, which he couldn't believe that people don't have sex. He was like, what do you mean?

This is science fiction. I think all of us were like pouring our own experiences into the pot in a way that was like therapy. Yeah. I think the most romantic movie I've ever seen, or I cried the hardest of. And it was because I had broken up with the girls with for nine years and then I saw the movie. But Eternal Sunshine and the Span was mine. It's really just the one exchange where they're deciding whether or not. not they're going to be together again. She's like, I'm going to do this and you're going to get

annoyed. And I'm going to do this and you're going to do this. And he goes, okay. And I'm like, oh, fuck. I could have just said okay. I could have, like, loved that and honored and appreciated that. I went into this whole zone where it's like, oh, yeah, I met Bree when I was broke and we were in the tent with the light. Like, we had that relationship. Now I have money and I'm famous. Like, well, I ever have anything that's that genuine? So in a weird, way that movie made me deeply sad. Oh, devastating. I could relate to that. Like, yeah, okay, I'll take all that, you know. Right. Right. So did yours give you any sadness at the end? Because you're a couple, well, we can't avoid the end, but you know, there's hope in your story.

Well, it's actually interesting you see it that way because it's sort of ambiguous by the side. And the audiences we've taken it to so far, I do a little poll at the end in the Q&A, and it's been 50-50 every time. I had an argument with someone about the end. I was like, no, I disagree. with you. That it's hopeful. Yeah. Yes. And Seth and I disagreed

when we were filming it. He was like, ride or die felt like these people are together forever. He was so sure of it. But isn't it so obviously. Well, it's also reflective of all of us in the room.

Totally. I believe, fuck, I've been doing this for 19 years. There have been periods where it's like, I wouldn't have bet on us. Yes.

And then here we are. But you've also had breakups that you're like, yeah, that ran. That should have been the end. Exactly.

Yeah, that was the end. And that, for me, is how I was like, that's done. Often when we see breakups in movies, it's devastating in a way that makes us afraid in life of ever seeing an ending as maybe a healthy result. Right. And we don't have a lot of movies about a divorce that should happen. I remember I'm amazing that Mrs. Delfire was made in the 90s and it ends with them not getting back together. Yes. You think the whole movie like, okay, it's hot.

This is going to work. And the ending is just like, no, but they actually find a way to live separately, really happily. And I think that was very bold for that time. But it's still something people are uncomfortable with, particularly when there's kids involved. There's still this idea that like, no, no, no, you make it work no matter what. And 50% of marriages end. So clearly there's a lot of people coming to a different conclusion. But can we kind of change the conversation around it?

But what's interesting is that now I've watched the movie so many times. that I, at the end, sometimes I've started to feel like maybe I have hope. I'm like, oh, am I changing my opinion based on how I feel today? But offering the opportunity to end a relationship allows for you to make the choice to be in the relationship. And I think that is very astaire. This is a choice. And if people take away the obligation to be there and the resentment and the paperwork, and it's like, get rid of all that.

That's all easily undone. You can get rid of that. You're allowed to leave. So if you're here, make the choice to be here and actually be here or don't. And maybe that's okay. That's also okay. But also we have a good time pressure testing this relationship they're observing from upstairs. Yes.

That seems like a blast. Seems great. But then, which I like is you're truthful enough to go like, oh yeah, and then that has problems. All of this shit has problems. Yeah, conflict isn't the problem. It's the inability to be honest about it and resolve it. So we wanted to show an example of like rupture and. repair.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not saying, like, you're only happy if you never fight. It's how you fight, how you recover from the fight, and fighting is actually really healthy if it's honest. And you're not letting this resentment build up over time and secrets and all those things that come if you don't communicate. There's also this delightful thing. And I think a lot of people thought this about Brie and I, by the way, because we were

an open relationship all nine years. And I also think there's this thing. When you meet the couple that seems to be totally fine with everything, they're so intelligent. They have thought through everything and they're unaffected. buy all this. When you get to see those people affected. Yes. It's really rewarding. It kind of confirms this hunch we have that no, no one can transcend those feelings. Now, I'm on the other side of that debate, right? Which is like, no, we really did. And it was really fine. And I know everyone thought we were full of shit. Well, it's also very threatening to people to present the

idea that it's possible to be. That you could just love each other. Yeah. They don't even want to let that in to the room. Well, because they know they've experienced jealousy before. And it's just such a dark feeling. The best thing I've ever heard about jealousy is that if you take, I'm ruining a Buddhist adage, but it's that if you take the ego out of jealousy, you're left with admiration. I think about it all the time. That's lovely. The other one is if you take the ego out of anger, you're left with determination.

So it's not about eliminating the feeling. It's transforming it by removing the ego from it, which is so hard to do. But it's like, if you're jealous of somebody, it's usually because you actually admire. You recognize that they have an offering people would like. Also, another thing that's really from mating and captivity from Esther's book is the recognition of the third. She calls it the shadow of the third, which is that when you're in a relationship with someone, it's important to recognize the opportunity they have to be with someone else.

And that's not a bad thing. It actually keeps the erotic charge alive. If you remove that, then you lose this kind of separateness that is important. You've traded safety, what you think is safety, for death. Exactly. But the idea of like acknowledging maybe if jealousy is just a useful way to be like, you are desirable and you desire others and that's actually a charge. I don't want you to lose.

I don't want you to not have that. Polyamory is a whole other step in that direction. I'm critical. I'm just like, I want to see this workout. Right. I know how hard one relationship is. I don't know. That's the thing.

For me, it sounds exhausting. Yeah, our thing was like, if I never know about something, I don't care. That's amazing. And that worked great for us. Until it didn't. I always have to say that. But nine years is a long long. I don't think that is the reason I feel guilt-free framing it that way is that just wasn't.

It wasn't the thing that ended us. Yeah, which people would probably assume. Yeah. Think of how many couples were so happy when you guys broke up. Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. They're like, yes, I knew it. See? Yeah.

We talk about also the concept of compersion in the movie, which is also. What's compersion? Compersion is experiencing joy within your partner's joy. And we're using specifically in terms of like sexuality. So they say they transferred jealousy into compersion, the idea of if you are being sexually pleased and that I'm experiencing it because you are.

Seth and my characters, we're like, what on earth? We can't imagine. But I think that this whole point of this is we stop recognizing our partners as whole people and we stop recognizing ourselves as whole people. And I want people to leave the movie feeling like, am I blaming my partner for all my unhappiness? Am I fully realized whole person?

Have I really thought about myself in that way? Not just someone who completes someone else or someone who needs to be completed. Do I recognize my person as a separate person? And I think that would be a healthy thing to put out there. A good line of thinking. That's useful. I feel like with comedy, my favorite kind of laugh is the laugh of someone recognizing themselves and the sense of like, oh my God, I thought I was the only one.

And you can hear it in the theater when they're like, ah, ha, ha. And it's like, that's the best because it takes the shame out of an experience. And you get the sense that people are less alone. And they're just like, we're getting to laugh at how ridiculous we all are. And the movie is really just having fun with that. It's like, look, we're all just awkward humans attempting to relate to each other. It's impossible.

Olivia, I have had you for so long. We really. This is your second of the day. Oh, that's okay. Thank you so much. Oh, such a joy. I think you're so good. I'm so excited to watch all the movies you'll make.

Thanks. Yeah, I'm really a huge fan. I'm so grateful. And I feel like when I heard that you guys liked it, it was very exciting because I think there's this feeling of like very, very funny, talented people can be very critical of comedies. Sure. So it meant a lot to me when I heard you liked it. It's so good. It comes out June 26th.

June 26th in New York and LA. 6262. Kind of cool, right? 626262. I wish that was like a hidden clue. It was like a Taylor Swift thing where like... You could unlock for them. The coordinates will lead you to a show.

No, it's New York and L.A., June 26th. And then it goes wider from there. So it's fully wide July 10th. Okay, July 10th. Great. Get your 4th of July blackouts done. Yeah, yeah. And then when you're just thinking like, I've got to tighten it up this summer.

Maybe I'll go to a movie instead. of blacking out tonight. I also think it's a great date night movie, and I think it's a great double date movie. And my fantasy is that people will swing afterwards. You'll go and swing. But people will think, like, who's the other fun couple you know to go see it with and then have dinner and talk and argue? It'll spark so much conversation.

That's my fantasy. Oh, yeah, yeah. It really well. It's great. I think that's assured. Olivia, this has been a blast. I'm so grateful you said yes. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having.

And the next movie you direct, we'll do it again. Sweet. Deal. Thank you. Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong. Thank you, Rob. Moved my coffee over. Oh, he's a very thoughtful boy. Very nice.

We did something earlier. We tested a theory. Oh, yeah. We were between recordings and I hate to admit to this, but I was very tired. And then I just, soon as the episode was over, I just laid down on the carpet face down in the studio. And then I said if I were on railroad tracks and now as unconscious, non-responsive, could you move me off the railroad tracks? Yeah. And I said, of course. Yeah, you were like, no problem. And then I said, okay, give it a shot. I want to tread lightly here.

I want to be honest, but I also don't want to hurt your feelings. Go ahead. I was like, is she even trying to lift me up? Fuck. I knew I wasn't going anywhere. Like from when you first gave it your first thrust, you went for it. And I didn't move at all and I didn't come off the ground at all. It was weird.

I was like, oh, she's not even going to be able to get me an inch off these tracks. Like, you know, I gave up immediately. It was really pretty bad. It was pretty bad. I really, like, could not get you to move at all. And I wasn't doing anything sneaky. I was just laying there. I know.

You're so heavy. Yes. And then we went up to see Lincoln in the gym. Yeah. And you said, but you kept saying, which I think is hilarious as you're like, it's fine, though, because you get super strength. I do. I'm like, when we're really in this position, I'm going to get super strength. I know.

You're certain of it. And I'm nervous a lot of people think they hear about the one story from the 50s where a mom lifted a car off a baby or whatever. It happens so often. The moms always can. lift the car off the kids. But yeah, you're so confident. You're not even worried. I'm not.

Which is, that scares me. Well, I mean. Lincoln did better. She, no, but I also want to say something. Okay. I was like, well, if we're really doing this like for real roleplay, I can't do for real what I would do because I would just be yanking your arm like out of its socket. And I knew I couldn't.

So I couldn't give it my full. I also didn't want to scrape up your whole face. I was on carpet, but okay. Yeah, but actually. Oh, rug burn. Okay. And I know that and I know you'd be upset if I scraped. Oh, my God.

You don't know anything. I wouldn't be upset. I wouldn't even acknowledge my face was scraped. I almost, I couldn't admit I was tired. What are you talking about? I wouldn't have been like, oh, Monica. Would you, you think you'd ever hear me do that? Of course.

I mean, it happened five minutes later. We were upset. Oh, shit. You make a great point. But that's my child. Either it hurt you. So then we asked her to do it. She really got in the most.

She didn't do what I did, which was half strength. She thought about it a little. Maybe it's from her 18 months of jiu-suitzoo, yeah. But she immediately thought to just grab one arm and get me rolling. Like don't try to lift me, but roll me. I did say before we went up there, I said it was hard because you were on your stomach and I would want you on your back. But you got to get me on my back by the chance.

And then, yeah, Lincoln was so keen to impress you that she was running into me, like not looking where her feet were going. and she got my side of my side skin, which is very tender, in between the rubber mat and her fucking tennis shoe sole. Yeah. And it felt like she ripped all the skin off my sides. And I did say, ow, the second time. Because I was like.

You said, Al the first time when you said, oh, that's the second. And you did have a. I was like, stop that. That's two for two. Yeah. And I was like, this is why I only went half strange. I lost that one. But it really did hurt.

I know. I'm sure it did. But listen, if you're on the railroad tracks, I'm going to, you won't feel it because you'll be non-responsive, as you said. But you're going to be very injured after that. What have you said? You're going to be very happy with where you wake up. You're not going to be on the tracks. After Monica tried for a few times, I was like, that's it.

I'm in three pieces. Like, I was also making the stakes hikes. I was going. I know. That was really scary. I hated that. You know what, though? I would die too, because I wouldn't give up. You'd have to give up. No, I wouldn't. I would just keep. You'd stay there. I would know by superhuman strength what happened at the last minute. In the movies, it always happens at the last minute. It does. Yeah. So I would be like, it's okay. It's going to happen at the last minute. And then we both get dead. This does remind me of, and I know you've heard it, but Aaron and I's death pack, which is, If I die first, he's obligated as the funeral. The funeral will be held at a railroad crossing.

Oh, yeah. And he's going to put me in a full Superman outfit and then put me in a chair and tie me with rope to the chair. And then when the train's coming, you're like, it's no problem. It's Superman. He'll get out of those ropes. And then I just get smashed. It would be such a good joke.

No, it's a bad. It's so funny visually. Well, in this case, you've already been hit by. I think you need a plan B in case you do die by railroad track. Oh, I would then need a different. Yeah, we have to go to. We have backup plans for that, actually. You know, there's three different scenarios.

Oh, my God. I hate this. You know, the dream is we die at the same time. Oh, I don't like this. And then in our funeral week, we have opposing cannons that are 100 yards apart. Yeah. Again, we're in superhero outfits. Yeah.

And they explode the cannons and we're flying. I am through the air. You're like, it's a bird. It's a bird. We would look like superheroes in our capes and everything flying. Sure. But then we would collide midair. Yeah.

And then we would just fall like wet sacks of cement. Mm-hmm. So what a joke that would be so funny. So funny. Yeah, really funny stuff. Oh my gosh. So funny. Yeah.

The whole family would be laughing, I think. They'd be laughing so hard. So you fly across, your dead body fly across the air and collide. She got latched into the air and smack into air and then tumbled to the ground. And then everyone just turns and gets back in their car and leave. I hope. But then somebody has to like clean that up. No, and leave it out for the scavengers for the jackals and the coyotes.

Just had a brainstorm. Okay. You get, you can on your license elect to donate your body to science and to organ donation. Would you donate your corpse that get eaten by a polar bear? Well, have they taken my organs out and given them to people? Sure. Then yeah. Yeah, wouldn't that be great?

Well, I don't know if it would be great, but I just don't care. Yeah, like I'll stoke the polar bear. It's like you want to add at the zoo. And then they just throw this, they throw your corpse in there. That's such a sweet gift to that polar bear. I mean, yeah, I don't really care about the vessel, you know, afterwards. But I do want to give my organs to people. This is a fun topic because we just watched that crazy documentary about the woman.

I haven't seen it yet. He was faking a pregnancy, Moonschowson. I know. Do we want to spoil it for people? No, just, I guess this is inadvertently. Anyways, at the end of the thing, which we watch with the family, the kids were asking me about, like, how do they kill people when you get sentenced to death? And I was like, well, you've got electric chair, I think is still functional maybe in a state or two. Lethal injection, most common.

And then firing squad still. this comes up in an episode too soon oh right I probably made the same point in that episode which is that's my pick by far I think that's crazy well I'll tell you why the bullets moving faster than the speed of sound did you know that's actually the bang you're hearing in a gun you're hearing some bang from the gunpowder but the big bang is when it breaks the sound barrier oh isn't that cool that is cool

So you're standing there. The bullets traveling faster than the speed of sound. You would never even hear the gun go off. You'd be standing there like thinking like, oh, this sucks. This is how I'm going to go. And then that's that. You're not watching someone hit a syringe to initiate the lethal injection. You're not watching a guy go over to that fucking archaic switch on the wall for the electric chair.

I just hate it all. I hate it. Yeah. I hate it. It was fun for me because the kids are now. I mean, you'll remember right. High school is probably the first place they have you debate the death penalty, as I recall. Yeah, I don't remember the first.

It's a very like, it's a perfect philosophical debate to launch onto young minds. Yeah. And I had a very specific opinion in high school that I don't now have. Me too. Oh, interesting. So were you pro-death penalty in high school? Yeah, so what changed your mind? I just learned about the world.

I mean, one is I've learned, well, too many people. could be innocent. Uh-huh. I'm too afraid of that. Yeah. I recognize that there is less choice in the matter than I used to think. Like, I used to just think, like, everyone was making these bad decisions and bad choices. Everyone in the same child as you did, and then they made the decision with your brain.

Exactly. Yeah. It's like, oh, no. Like, all of this is a crapshoot, and sometimes things happen. Yeah. And, yeah, if I do it, I've made a choice. Right. Right, right, right, right.

And a bad one. And maybe I should be killed for that. Yeah. But I can't. I can't. People don't have that same faculty. Yeah. So I'm just against it.

Mine was fiscal. So my whole point in when I was a senior, I remember debating people often about it was, okay, we're spending $30,000 a year to keep someone incarcerated. So this man has just butchered this family. And we're going to go spend $30,000 a year to keep this. used to shit alive when we could be giving that 30,000 to like the fucking inner city kid who's got no leg up. I was just like why of our limited resources? Why on earth do we honor this fucking person?

But what changed my mind is I learned that almost all death row inmates will exhaust all of the legal moves they can make. So they're entitled to X amount of appeals. They can do clemency declarations, all this stuff. all told, I forget the number exactly, but all told the average legal expense incurred from someone on death row by the time they put them to death is like over a million dollars.

And the second I heard that, I was like, okay, well then my normal objection doesn't even make sense. That's even more money we're spending on the monster who murdered everyone. And I did always object to the notion of killing someone to show that killing's wrong. It just always felt like a flawed premise. Yeah, it just felt like, how can that be a premise?

Yeah. But if I were right, like if you got sentenced to death, they knew it was the person. Yeah. And they killed them the next day. Mm-hmm. I think I would be in favor of not spending $450,000 on a person who butchered someone's family over the other people that could benefit from it. It's hard.

It is. I just. Also, there's some cases where I forget, case we were just watching and they weren't getting the death penalty. And I was like, what's weird is this person is in so much discomfort with their psychosis and their mental health issues. It feels almost more torturous to keep this person alive for another 35 years to suffer in prison. I used to also say that. I used to say like, I think it's worse for them to be in prison. Like if they, if you really want punishment, death isn't really a punishment for them.

If you want them to suffer. Yeah. But so I used to also say that. I, now no longer really feel like that. Like I don't think suffer. Yeah, exactly. I don't really want anyone to suffer on this earth. Yeah, I don't want to hurt the people that hurt people. Yeah. I just want to keep them away from everyone.

Everyone, yeah. Which I guess some people would say then, yeah, remove the room. I just, I can't. Like, I can't get on board with. It's messy. The bottom line is it's so fucking messy because I'm of the same opinion as you are. And then I just, we just interviewed someone who it's like the fucking person was out for five days on parole after raping a bunch of other people and fucking breaks into it.

It's like, then there's that. So it's like, ah, it's so inconvenient. I know. It is. And that's why the people who want them thrown away forever, they have, you know, everyone's got a, we've got a bunch of innocent people that didn't belong there or their circumstances we're going to land in there no matter what. So we have a healthy dose of people we can point to for that.

And then the people on the other side are going to have a really healthy dose of the people that were let out and then immediately killed more people. I know. It's just if you, unfortunately, you have to choose the lesser of, what do you want this country to be against people who are innocent in jail or people who are guilty out and like. Killing innocent people sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah. It's just, I think that's more, to me, the solution is more about that.

Each side admitting that than one side or the other getting their way. It's just like, let's, let's just all acknowledge. This is fucking really messy. And it's not great when the person that could have been better doesn't get to be. You can see that. If you're on the, you know, throw away the key side of the argument, even they would be able to acknowledge for the person who got out and turned their life around and never hurt anyone again. It would be a shame to keep that person. You know, like everyone could admit what's going on on both sides and start with the notion like whatever solution we agree upon, it's going to be very far from perfect.

And we have to accept that to some degree. Yes, I think we do. But, you know, I am not like, I'm a pretty fearful person. Mm-hmm. And I also think that's where people who, well, there's two, there's a lot of variables, but I think fearful people are often for it. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Because it's like, just get rid of them. Get rid of them. Let's get them down the toilet. Doesn't matter. The tiny chance that they could come out and do something like, no. Not worth it. So I think that's also part of why I used to want it. I'm just like, no, that's like a bad guy.

Why wouldn't you just kill them? Yeah, let's just get rid of that. And now I'm like, I don't know, maybe I'm just less scared. Mm-hmm. I'm not scared at all. Oh, wow. Congratulations. That was quick.

It was really quick. I didn't even see all the baby steps. It just like went from fearful to not fearful at all. No, I just... You should write a book on how to overcome fear. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. I've overcome a lot of fear, I think. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Not, I'm not cured. Yeah. But I think a healthy dose fear is okay. But... Whatever you're doing is great for everyone. I think it's great. But anyhow, I just don't... Well, what do they, what do the kids say?

Did you ask them about this? Well, that's why it became a conversation. because I was interested and fascinated with the notion that Lincoln was very much like, yeah, that person should probably get. He did. Yeah. I was like, oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about that, you know.

Yeah. And then I got to save my whole journey with my opinion on it. You know, but I did think, I left it thinking like, I wonder if that's just a more natural conclusion for kids or when you're young. Exactly. Exactly. But again, because life is a little more black and white when you're young. Yeah, they're good and bad.

And you see such a, you can't have the nuance and the exposure to, like, other people's experiences and how people got where they got and all of that. And they're tiny and scared. Of course. Yeah, it's scary. But my parents watched it. I haven't watched it yet, but they, we were chatting on the phone last week and they're like, have you seen this thing?

You shouldn't watch it. This is what happens. I was like, oh my God. Okay. You shouldn't watch it. You know, she was like, she's being sentenced to death. And I was like, oof. Like, I, that was my reaction.

I was like, ooh. And she said, as she should. Uh-huh. And I was like, look, I get, I get it. It's dark. It's about as. It's as dark as you can get. Yeah.

It is. I mean, it's. Dear Zachary, still much worse. But it's on the, it's on the far end of the spectrum. Should the mom did it? The woman had, like, killed her husband. And then the friend came to make like a video to pass on to their child. And while he's making this like video trying to, he's a documentary in his friend.

And as he's trying to build this whole story of his life so that the kid will know who his dad is, he starts kind of realizing that the wife killed him. Right. And then this custody battle ensues. And then the end she kills a kid. herself family. It's so brutal. And I, and it's like,

yeah, it's also the guy who, um, put his kids in the water tower, killed them, put them in the water tower. Do you know that?

I don't know about that guy. Just like, what is happening out there? It is. It's, it's perfect. Anyway, um,

so they told me and then she was, you know, happy that she was, that was her sentence. Yeah. And I was like, and, you know, yeah, different opinions. And I respect. I get it.

Uh-huh. But then. And I always want to say this because I think a common response is like, what if you're, let me be clear. If someone fucks with my family, I want them dead. Yeah, me too. I'm not claiming that I wouldn't personally want them and be happy if they were killed. I agree.

Anyone who hurt my family. I agree. But I think societally, we can do better than what we individually would want. I also am for like, obviously, I'm not like, this woman should never get out of prison. I'm like, she should never have the ability to get out. Like, it's not, I don't, but I don't feel unsafe knowing she's in there for life. Like, I'm not. Right.

You know? She weirdly was the person that I was like, is it more torturous? Yeah. Like, this person is in such a fucking totally different reality than everyone. else is that I just don't, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how this person recovers in any way. I mean, you also have to look at the like, that woman has children, right? Yeah, that she didn't raise or have anything to do with.

Sure. But I just mean that person has children. And that, regardless of how fucking horrific their parent is, you are passing down trauma. by murdering them. And they're already so fucked up, I'm sure. They're already the kids in town whose mom did this thing. They already had like the biggest uphill battle. Yeah, yeah.

And then you add this. And it's just like it's not just the one person. Like there are repercussions. And I just wish we could just like get ahead of all of this mental illness. Yes, that would be great. But back to. I don't know. I don't really know how to say it. I know what I feel about it. And I know I can feel it very strongly that part of our problem is people have not admitted what's possible to themselves. They want perfection. They want a policy. They want a law. They want some government action. That's just going to be perfect that people won't get accidentally shot and people won't, you know. And I think the more you have that view of the world, the less you can compromise or be flexible because you believe in a fairy tale.

You believe there's a version that's going to be, there's not going to be a version where we police citizens, which has to be done that shit's not going to go sideways. Yeah. It's just, that's the reality of it. That is the real. So let's work backwards on our solution with what's all admitting this first. It can still be worked and it should to minimize the wreckage and the accidents

and the things like that. And there are things. I think when people are, well, people are upset for a million reasons, but when people are upset, it's because they feel there isn't enough being done prevention-wise for things. Yes, things go wrong and things will always. Yeah. But when it's like repeated or it's the same thing happening over and over again or there's issue, you know.

Yeah, when it is the results of a system that's flawed and it's producing those results, then, yeah, you've got to tinker with the system. Yeah. But I'm saying even when we, when AI design. the system, right? Where it is the most efficient best in that event. You know, these Waymoes are still going to crash. Yeah.

Right? They are. There's no, there's no world in which vehicles aren't going to crash, even when robots are driving them. Yeah. So, I don't know. I don't know what I'm trying to say other than I just think it, it creates a situation where you could never meet in the middle

because you think something's possible that's not possible on. Both sides. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Want to do some facts? Want to fack about it?

Yeah. Let's do some facts. Sorry, Olivia, that this was so death-heavy. Real downy, huh? I mean, look, we just, we interviewed someone yesterday with a fucking crazy story. I really hope everyone listens to that one. It is so inspiring. And it is so, I guess that it's like, how can you hear that story?

I mean, he wasn't on death row. But like, he could have been. He could have been. And how can you hear that? And also hear this person, like speaking, being brilliant. Yeah. And think, like, that's someone to throw away. Like, it's very.

It's a great counterfactual to all the. It's, yeah. There were a few in there. There were, he, I mean, I guess we'll save it for. Oh, will it come out when we're not doing a fact check? Probably. Damn. Well, we should say that.

So we're doing a little fun thing this summer. Oh, yes, yes, yes. We are going to, we asked you guys what some of your favorite old fact checks were, some classics. Some blast from the past. Perhaps some origins of lexicon. Exactly. Who knows how you catch up at this? Peabody.

Yeah. So we're going to rerun some old fact checks this summer. Yeah. Curated by the arm cherry's favorite fact checks. Yeah. So sorry, you won't get facts for the next little bit. Yeah. And that's when we get back, though, we'll have so many stories for you.

Too many stories. Just way too many stories. All right, Olivia. Origin of Cockburn last name. Uh-huh. The last name has Scottish origin. But it pulls from the British word cock. meaning C-O-C-C, meaning wild bird and burner, meaning brook or stream.

Oh, wild bird on a wild stream. Peaceful. Where did Olivia's mom, Leslie Cockburn, sneak a camera under her clothes? What other high-prol interviews has she done? She smuggled contraband video cassettes after Afghanistan passed the Taliban by strapping it under National Traditional Afghan Robs in 96. The video cassettes contain interviews and footage of the regime that were strictly forbidden by the government and the UN. Wow. Other notable research projects or interviews include Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein's son, and deep investigative work on Escobar.

Whoa. Oh, I could have a dinner with her. Definitely. What number of female student at Yale was her mom? She was in the first class that included women at Yale. She was one of the first 570 female graduates of the class of 1974. What season did Olivia join the OC, two? How many years did she do on House 5?

Wow. That's long. Speaking medical jargon. That'll burn you up. Yeah. Does Penelope Cruz have an identical twin? Online it says that she has a younger sister of three years who looks very similar. They're often mistaken for twins but are not.

Who is this? Penelope Cruz. Oh. But. Maybe they fooled Olivia. Yeah, that would be weird if... Is she younger? Unless she does not have a...

Oh, my God, our name's Monica. Oh, wow. Monica Cruz? Wow, then Olivia got duped. We should tell her. They do look extremely alike, but she does look older. She looks different. And old...

I don't know older or younger, but I do know different. But, I mean, look at the... I would not think they were twins. I will say they're... features do look very. Look at if you, I, if you isolate the tip of their nose and stuff. Yeah, in their mouth and their eyes. Which is funny because they do objectively have the same features. And yet, oh, wait, wait, wait, Rob, that's a different submission. Are you sure that's not still her on the right? No, that's not her. But they could definitely be twins. Here they are again.

Okay, I mean, that's them younger. Yeah, go back to the first one, Rob. I, I, I, they're, Well, the first one's from now, clearly. Right. But what I was going to say, Monica, is despite the fact that they do have very similar features, they have come together in a completely different way. Yeah, but that's how twins do it to differentiate. Same piece is different. Like they've done their hair differently and it's a different, one of them's dyed their hair. Side part, middle part.

And different color hair. Mm-hmm. I have a special feeling about Penelope that I've had for 30 years. Yeah. Join the rest of the world. I know. She's imagine being her twin. That would suck.

I'd rather imagine being Javier Bardem than her twin. Who's also a fucking stone cold fox. I want to be her. That's the three way of all three ways right there. That's the dream three way. Ding, ding, ding, ding. She is the most beautiful person alive. Oh, she's something else.

Crazy. If I got to be her, all I would do is look in the mirror. Like if I got to spend a week in her body, I would be in front of the mirror the entire time. If you got to temporarily be here. Yeah, one week in Penelope Cruz. What would I do? Oh, we, Jess and I played this game a lot. Like, if we could switch bodies, what will we do?

And he, you know, he's pretty nasty. So he has some ideas. No, he wants to just take my body out on the town. Yeah, really, to get it going. Yeah. And I was like, oh, my God. Once I get back in my body, oh. You're going to be sore.

I'll be so sore. And have so many diseases. I'll have so many diseases. What are you going to do when you're in his body? I'm going to reach ball. I'm going to reach tall things. Yeah. Go play pickup basketball.

Yeah, exactly. You're not going to masturbate with his penis? No, I will. Yeah, right? I am curious what that feels like. Yes, of course. But I don't. I think step one for anyone that switches bodies into the other gender,

step one should be immediately that. I just, but I only want to do that. I don't want to have sex with a man or a woman in his body. Right, right. I just want to masturbate and see what it feels like to have a penis. Yeah. But mainly reach tall things and play some basketball. Sure.

Complain about your back. Or yeah, I mean, they'll give me a lot of gratitude, probably, for the things short people have that I, you know, take for granted. Right. Okay. What is the Esther Perel AI Therapy episode? The episode title is My AI Loves Me Better Than Anyone Ever Could. Ooh.

Dangerous. sentence for you to read. Dangerous. Just looking at her again. Yeah. How can you stop? I can't, clearly. What a couple.

I was going to say, I don't, I reject what I'm about to say because I don't like when people do any otas. Yeah. But I don't know how they don't just stare at each other. Like, hon, let's go in the living room. There's good light in there. And let's just look at each other. People do that.

They say that about you and Kristen? No, but they have some fantasy of what the relationship. Oh, but your life is. Yeah, so I'm not trying to perpetuate that, but at the same time, I feel like that couple, they could just stand in the living room nude and be so entertained. And also apparently he's so nice. Yeah. Remember someone told us a really good story about him? Who was it?

Was it a chef or something? No, and they were at a pub and he was there and they were all hanging out and then some girl was getting kind of. Yeah, and he walked someone back to their apartment. I love him and I love her. Great couple. Great couple alert. Couple goals. All right.

All right. Love you.