Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Orna Guralnik (Couples Therapy)

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

Orna Guralnik (Couples Therapy) is a clinical psychologist and therapist. Orna joins the Armchair Expert to discuss why therapists often keep details of their private lives from their patients, why she felt like she had to code switch when talking to different groups of people, and how psychoanalysis differs from other forms of therapy. Orna and Dax discuss what systems thinking is, what being in a relationship with someone with dissociation is like, and the relational dynamics of the younger generation. Orna explains why she still has optimistic view of the world, how a person’s perception of someone can change when you know their story, and how her work affects her own personal relationships. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Rather, I'm joined by Modest Mouse. We have the most special guest today. I can't believe this happened to us. Some people in the comments sensed the Easter egg, which I didn't mind at all because they were as excited as we were about it.

Our very favorite therapist from our favorite show, which is called Couples Therapy, our doctor in residence on couples therapy, Orna Guralnik. Orna's here. Orna, oh my God, what a thrill this was. I wish I could measure how much brain space I give to Orna, how much I think about her and her advice

and her abilities. I want her advice. Me too. Yeah. Spoiler, we did the right thing and we didn't take up this interview asking person, and her advice and her abilities. I want her advice. Me too. Spoiler, we did the right thing and we didn't take up this interview asking personal advice. But it was tempting.

Sometimes it came out a little bit. Yeah, a little bit happened. Right out of the gates, I think. Okay, Orna is a clinical psychologist and a psychoanalyst. She is on the faculty at NYU Postdoctoral Institute for Psychoanalysis and at the National Institute and a psychoanalyst. She is on the faculty at NYU Postdoctoral Institute for Psychoanalysis and at the National Institute

for the Psychotherapies. Season four premieres tomorrow on Paramount Plus with Showtime, Couples Therapy Season Four. We've seen it, it's spectacular. It's so good. So please enjoy Orna Guralnik. He's an uptrends man. He's an uptrends man.

He's an uptrends man. Is that Nico? You're who I've been waiting to meet,iko. There's a fox in the attic. It's a wolf, not a fox. No, she's a fox. She's a wolf. Hi, sweet wolf. She's a wolf in fox clothing, which is a rare.

Almost never occurs. She's actually a human in a wolf's clothing. Hi, I'm Dax. Nice to meet you. We're so excited. Thank you for inviting me. A human in a wolf's clothing. Hi. Hi. I'm Dax. Nice to meet you. We're so excited. I brought a fam.

If you can indulge us with your... But you're on par with Nico for me, so I'm gonna take my moment because I'm getting a nice push against my body. She's smiling. She's smiling. Do you say, Mom, I have a friend? How old is Nico? Nico's almost eight.

Nico, why are we showing him getting friendly like this? She's got the energy, but she's almost eight. Her face is so youthful. Oh, another friend is here. Honey, look at you. Hello, guys, here. Nico's here.

Hello. Hello. Oh, small girl, excuse me, big personality. You're very popular. Very. Nico's a- Kind of like the dog in Anatomy of a Fall. Yeah, you're very popular.

Was that dog's name Nico? No, but just- Oh, yes, holding a lot of secrets. Oh, thank you. Hi, Monica. Hi, it's so nice to meet you. I'm thrilled to have you. Yeah, you're in the right place.

It's only once in a while we have someone that is in something we consume, you know, pathologically. Yeah, yeah, because there's only so many shows. So it's like once in a while, someone from our very favorite show comes and it's extra exciting. Well, if Nico needs anything, I'm in the house. If she needs a potty break, I'm happy to take her out.

Have a wonderful time, I can't wait to hear it. Hi, Mommy. Hi, Lydie. Hi. You have fun on your trip? So much fun. Have a wonderful time, you guys. Love you.

Love you. Mommy, how was your two days? It was fine. It was fine? Yeah. I had a little bit of a meltdown, I have a big update for you. Oh my goodness.

Yeah. Involving the people on the sidewalk? No. Okay. I haven't seen that. Oh, actually, I do have an update. So I've been. I'm curious. What's happening?

I've been going on runs, and there's a group of people who stand in the middle of the sidewalk for an hour. That's obviously a place they've decided to congregate. And talk? And talk. And it's a lot of people, a lot of dogs, and they don't move when you're coming,

when you're running down the street. And it's been making me crazy. And Dax suggested I take another route. That's the obvious, like, but. I hit her with the surrender prayer for me. Yeah, I take another route. This might fall into the category of things I cannot change.

It's the obvious solution. Yes, but you don't want P.O.C. I don't, I don't. You want to fight. Actually, I don't want It's the obvious solution. Yes, but you don't want the obvious. I don't, I don't. You want to fight. Actually, I don't want to fight because I would- You just want the world to change. I do want the world to change. And to be fair, to me,

the other route would require the run to be a lot harder. Cause it's all outside. Ah, so you're just lazy. Hi, oh no, this is awful, this is awful. You know what's amazing is you're getting to do something you don't actually do on the show, which is like you run right at it. I'm gonna solve all this in eight minutes, not 10 weeks.

No, no, no, I did change, I changed my time. There we go. That's not the update. The update is that I know I've talked about it on here, so my passive aggressive hope was that maybe it would get back to them. I don't care if they stay in there, I just want them to step out of the way

when people are coming. Anyway, one of our friends knows one of the people standing there. As you might guess from your reaction, and I had a certain one, it's been a polarizing topic in the comments. Oh, it has. Oh, it has.

I don't need the irony. There's a lot of Team Monogam, there's a lot of people going, you know. Saying what? That I should run in the street? No, more what I brought up, which is like, if you look at it from a utilitarian point of view,

it's like, you know what, you're one person, there are 10 people communing, this is just measurably more effort. More effort for them to not. For 10 people to adjust what they're doing versus the one person, right? Even though what they're doing is- Also, if they're standing and talking with their dogs,

it's probably a nice thing. Community. Yeah. But in the middle of the sidewalk where everyone's walking? Sidewalk. Okay. Do you think the sidewalk is for standing and taking the things-

Orna, I need you on mic for this. Yeah. This is huge. This is huge. This is huge. For analysis here. Of an ever evolving crisis here. This has been like a situation.

Yeah, for a couple days. There's always a situation. This should cue you into our level of privilege that this is the enormous issue in our combined life. It's symbolic. Enormously. She is a minority. This is the majority.

Right, there's minority also. I mean, I didn't even think about that. All right, I need to readjust. Okay. There we go. Reorient yourself. You forgot I was a minority in this world. And specifically from Georgia, so from the South, I think that group does represent something a little bigger.

So the group needs to immediately move. No, they don't need to move, they don't need to stop congregating, they just need to take one step out of the way when someone is coming through. I just can't imagine someone running at me and me just staring at them and not moving. I've had to move, I mean, maybe this is a minority thing.

I have to move my whole life. I move around people. There's also an interesting dynamic that you live in New York and we live in LA, which has its own cultures about moving about. What is the culture here? You know what's funny is I think- If you're in the car, you never stop.

Right, you try to run everyone down, you have this illusion of anonymity in it, and so you behave in a way that you would never on the sidewalk. That's fascinating. Which in New York is not true. The pedestrians totally rule. Yeah. Yes.

And it's incredibly democratizing. Even if you're a billionaire, you have to walk on that same sidewalk. Now, what do you make- In New York, if it was crowded, if someone did that, people would freak out. If someone did what? If they couldn't get through.

You're constantly in situations where you have to maneuver around everything, whether it's the city drilling into the street for the hundredth time. That's true. Or like a line for something for a show or a bus. I mean, you're constantly maneuvering around a lot of people and you just adjust, you just move around.

You're just cool with it. There's also the randomly seven, 800 bags of trash. Like it's trash day and now there's a mountain of trash in the evening. Yeah. I'm not being disparaging. It's just a reality of the logistics of the city. I haven't noticed the trash.

You haven't. No. You're probably not out late enough. Now I know something about you. I'm out early. First of all, I wanna ask a quick question about headphones. I'm just curious, you don't have to wear them, or you could. I don't want to wear them. Great, I was curious,

because it would not feel nice, and you're like, I don't want that feeling. I never wear headphones on interviews and stuff like that. Oh, you don't? I don't understand why people do it actually. I could tell you. Tell me. From my point of view. Yeah. It eliminates and reduces the stimuli

to just your voice and Monica's. So it's a very kind of focusing auditory experience for me, which a lot of people don't need. I don't need that. I have super focus and I actually like to hear all the ambient so it feels real. If I'm too in the headphones, I'm like, wait, am I in reality?

Is this pretend? Right. It kind of makes you self-conscious of what you're hearing or overly aware of it. It's just super focused. I don't need the super focus. I have my own bizarre dissociative focus. I don't need more of that.

I wanna feel in reality. I like it. Okay, so when did you move to New York? 1990. From Israel? Yeah, I was born in the States. Oh. I was born in Georgia.

Oh my gosh. No. No, I was born in DC and lived in Georgia. What part? Actually, I was born in the States. Oh. I was born in Georgia. Oh my gosh. No, I was born in D.C. and lived in Georgia. What part? Actually I was born in D.C. I don't know. Atlanta. I don't know the neighborhood in Atlanta. Yeah. Moved to Israel when I was seven.

My parents are Israeli and I lived in Europe. I lived in all sorts of places, but came back to the United States in 1990 for grad school. At NYU. Went to grad school at Einstein, which is in the Bronx. Okay. I did NYU later when I did psychoanalytic training. And I wanted to actually start

with more of an umbrella question. There's obviously numerous reasons why a therapist keeps their private life private. I mean, you could list them, but there's quite obvious ones. There's like, it's a pretty important place for boundaries. Can you tell me what your- Assumption is? Yeah. My assumption of why that wall should exist

to some degree, I think that knowing a lot about you distracts the person to some degree, and probably you are unavoidably drawn to make comparison. Like if you have children and I have children and I'm dealing with something, like I'm gonna start using a lot of shortcuts, like you know and you understand. I'm gonna be incorporating you a lot more

than probably is fruitful. Is that some of it? That's a lot of it. When you know too much about another person, at least some of us feel inclined to then start taking care of them. Oh, yeah. It takes the focus away from you, as you were saying,

whether it's comparison or caretaking or assumptions that, oh, I'm gay, they're straight, they're gonna judge me. It brings a lot of extra data into the room that gets in the way. It's why you have a therapist, sort of, to have it be a third party. Yeah, and then there's that thing called transference.

You want the option for there to be somewhat of a blank screen so that you can project all sorts of things that you don't know and assume about your therapist, and that's part of the work. That's like really interesting. Yeah, I would imagine too, I could easily hear some details and now ascribe an archetype to you that is already triggering to me,

or resembles some parent or some teacher or whatever the thing is. Or you'll hear some details and it will rob you of an archetype that you really needed to work on. Let's say you wanted to think that your therapist is a bigot and then you find out actually they're married to a person very different from them and it kind of ruins the fantasy. So given that, do you have certain reservations and misgivings about doing press

and letting people get to know you and doing interviews? And doing the show. Right. Let's start with that. First of all, I do keep certain boundaries, even when I do press and I have people do profiles on me and I did draw certain boundaries that I thought would be just too much for my patients. But I think it's cost my patients something,

the fact that I'm more of a public figure, that they know more about me. Has anyone said anything? It's interesting. Patients that have been with me since before I became this kind of public figure, they've said all sorts of things, lots of things, yes. They've said, they've suffered.

They've carried a certain burden, but it became part of the work as most things are. People that joined my practice since I've been doing it, it's just like a given. Okay, it would be impossible that you're not experiencing a lot of the things. And actor experiences when they become known and the people in their life,

it's a very triggering experience because the first knee jerk fear is like, well, I won't be as important as this new status or they're going to a status that I will get left behind. So that's the story. So then the confirmation bias kind of takes over and they look for only signs that that's happening. And I think it can dramatically affect. So yeah, I would imagine some patients of yours are probably like, what am I? She's now on TV and she's everywhere. Yes. I think many patients have had that question and it keeps coming up.

If I have to, let's say cancel a session or now I'm traveling, certain patients will be like, oh, of course you're leaving me or canceling my session because Hollywood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So have you figured out an incredible technique to mitigate that? Because I could sure benefit from that.

My real work, my real life is my practice. I love doing the show and I love everything I've learned from it and it's a really interesting world to visit, but my real life is my practice. That's where my heart is. That's what I really, really love doing. Yeah, that's your real identity. I mean, everything is real, but that's my home.

That's what I care about the most. When patients bring up these kinds of questions, it's an opportunity for me to check in with myself and see, am I still following what really matters to me? Am I getting distracted? So I welcome it when people bring things up. You're right, because it has a power that's very hard to observe.

Right, there's a draw to the public and to press and all of that in a certain kind of world of its own. And it's great to have a real check-in when people say, are you too busy for me? And I'm like, let me think about that. Let me be honest about that. First of all, with myself. So I encourage my patients to call me on it

if that's what it feels like. Yeah, given that, are you comfortable telling me about where you're from and all that? Yeah. Okay, good. So seven years old? Thanks for asking. Yeah, because I guess let me even be more transparent.

We interview people, Robert Sapolsky, we interview. I don't know anyone. Okay. That's like the most embarrassing thing. I don't know anyone. That's wonderful. He's not a celebrity, he's just like an intellectual guy. I don't know anyone. That's wonderful. He's not a celebrity. He's just like an intellectual guy.

He is incredible. Eric Lander, head of Broad Institute at MIT. People who study things that are really, really complex and they have this enormous brain that they bring to bear on it. And then what I also think is kind of interesting is very few of them, I think they take for granted the thing that interested them was innately interesting

and they're not really curious so much about why that was a comforting pursuit. So I'm most always interested when I talk to people of like how we think we ended up here and why that looked like a comfortable. You're thinking like an analyst. Okay. So I'm wondering, I would be guessing, but moving a lot, all those dynamics and being in group, out group and how are people thinking and being very incentivized to understand how people think. Was that happening? Totally. I was always with one foot in a culture and one foot out. My first language was English

and my parents spoke Hebrew between them. And I was the only Jew in my first elementary school. I was always navigating a few different cultures at the same time. And like you're saying, trying to figure it out. Do you find that you would code switch? We maybe call it code switching and then you even get curious. Do I even know, could it get a little fragmented in a way?

It's certainly helped with creating what we call kind of in jargon, multiple self-states. So I have all sorts of self-states, you know, when I'm speaking Hebrew and I'm with my peers, I have a certain slang and a certain way of being that's me. And then when I switch to English and speak with my colleagues, I'm a different part of myself. So I code switch a lot. And I think when I was a younger person, there was some confusion about, wait, what part is authentic? What part is real? Where is my real home? Over time, you figure it out and you find that you're living

in the in-between and it's all different versions. Yeah, do you figure it out or you just get comfortable? You go, oh yeah, I'm all these things and that's just fine. I'm all these things. It's not always fine, but I'm all these things. I think in a way, switching between all these different options has become sort of my life project in the sense that when you work with couples really what you're trying to do both as a therapist and what you're trying to teach people to do is to hold

multiple perspectives in mind. You have a version of what happened, the person next to you has a very different version of what happened and they might actually be totally valid. And there's also my version looking from the outside. So there's validity to all of it and there's interest in the tension between. So it's become kind of my life project, living multiplicity. These are my politics as well. So I made it work somehow.

On the show, you do get to see that because what I love about the show is we see you with your mentor. With Virginia. Yeah, who seems amazing and then you're with your other colleagues and then we see you in practice and you are a bit different in each of the surroundings

which is cool and it is what we all do. Aren't we all? You're right, it's really fascinating for ease of generic title. You're the boss in the room. You sit in the seat and then you go sit in this other seat and it's like, oh, it's a circle. So then this is more egalitarian. And then yes, there's this kind of advisor role and we get to, yes, see you

take on these different layers in the hierarchy, which is fun. Now you got your PhD in the 90s. There were options on the table at that time, right? CBT's already an approach and a lot of these things are approaches. So why specifically psychoanalysis? And I think it would be helpful for you to explain to us. To describe the difference. And maybe the evolution from Freud psychoanalyzing until now. Awesome.

Really? Yeah, yeah. In an article you wrote that I read, you gave us a really concise layout of that. Oh, that's fun. Should I start more with theoretically or should I start about my own journey? Yeah, tell me about your journey because you're taking an intro to psych at some point.

Right, my intro to psych was not in college. My intro to psych was as a teenager. I had, let's say, a very active teenage life, tumultuous, wild. And I got really, really lucky where my parents, who were clueless, but they somehow found this incredible analyst for me who changed my life. At what age? 16. I started reading Freud and Mnuchin and Artie Lang and my whole world just opened up. That's really my introduction to the field.

And it tremendously helped me understand myself, my family, what's happening in the world, all this mess of feelings that a teenager experiences, it all started to make more sense. And it was already a very psychoanalytic or psychodynamic approach. That's what helped me. Now just to divert and say a few words about what's the difference. So some therapies are aimed at very direct problem-solving. That's when you have

behavioral therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy where you target a problem and you analyze what leads to a certain behavior, how do you eliminate it, what leads to certain distorted thoughts and how do you confront them logically. You can include all sorts of things like EMDR, all sorts of other more physiological based ways to, let's say, calm anxiety or regulate emotion. All very helpful techniques of solving problems and dealing with more or less the here and now. Psychoanalysis takes somewhat of a different approach where the primary assumption, first of all, is that we're guided by deeply unconscious forces. And those are really interesting and really impactful to discover. There are all these different psychoanalytic techniques that basically open up a space of exploration internally,

where you make sense of much deeper layers of what's motivating you and what's motivating the world around you. And that can include like early, early experiences in your life that shaped your way of thinking. It can include ways that your mind is driven by all sorts of impulses that society doesn't allow you to think about and you repress or dissociate from and psychoanalysis helps you find a language for and something that myself and my peers have been very busy with is also ways in which all sorts of socio-cultural factors come into us and shape how we feel and think and we're not used to thinking about it consciously. That's what your article I read was about.

That's the piece in the Times probably. Yeah, about the impact of BLM and Me Too materializing in these relationships. So I think people understand this intuitively. We talked about it just now. When Monica sees this group on the street and they're all the hegemonic group, that means many things.

It means the immediate thing, which is it's an obstacle, and then it means potentially other things from the subconscious. You had to mention it. I didn't even clock that as a factor, but I know her so well. You would have within five minutes of talking, probably. You didn't have much time with me to get there.

I don't know. I don't know. I think if I wasn't quote white, probably I would have been more sensitive to that. I didn't think about it. I didn't think about it until he said that. Good for you. And I still don't know if it, well.

You're gonna star. Yeah, she don't wanna give me a star either. I don't know for sure. At least to think about it. At least for it to be one of the dimensions. I can give a personal antidote, which is just generally I get along so well with our nine-year-old.

We have a very nice symbiotic flow. Boy? Girl, both girls. And the nine-year-old's very much like my wife, so I have a lot of practice. And then similarly the 11 year old's like me, and she does very well with her. So we rarely have a thing.

And we're laying in bed and we're debating whether this math problem we did the day before, the answer was this or that. And I said no, it was this. And she said no, it was not, it was this. You said that. That's what it was. She said no, you said the answer was this. And I said, no, it was not. It was this. You said that. That's what it was. She said, no, you said the answer was this.

And I said, well, no, I would have never said that because this times this is that. So I would have said that. And now we're getting into the weeds and we are now arguing about what I said and what I didn't say. And it's uncharacteristic. And I go to bed that night and I'm like,

that was out of the blue. And then the next day I said to her, honey, I'm so sorry, you stumbled into my primal fear of being dyslexic and stupid. And so it's so important to me that you know I'm smart and I got that right. And I was just emotionally so activated by that, but it's from when I was your age and I'm so sorry.

And it doesn't matter what I said and probably you're right or whatever, but that's from when I was your age, and I'm so sorry, and it doesn't matter what I said, and probably you're right or whatever, but that's what was happening. So it's like, yes, she and I are having, on the surface, we're debating whether I said this or that. But actually something quite profound is happening for you. Yes, and the stakes are high. If there's anyone I want to appear to be smart

in front of, it's my children. Of course. So that would be my subconscious, right? Yes. Does it frustrate you? I get a little frustrated because we do interview people that practice many different approaches to this. Are you annoyed by the techniques being pitted against each other? Cause I feel like, what are we talking about?

There's like, is a jog great or is lifting weights great or is Pilates great? All these things are probably beneficial health wise. I agree with you. There is a way in which I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about these shorter term techniques. First of all, there's the way in which managed care has taken over medicine and the mental health field and has demanded a certain level of superficiality

that I find really troubling. Like they want results and they want a timeline. I don't know what they mean by results. at a certain level of superficiality that I find really troubling. Like they want results and they want a timeline. I don't know what they mean by results. Like stop complaining and just be quiet, medicate yourself and just stop complaining. That's not results for a psychoanalyst. A lot of the complaining is about things

that should be complained about and need deep addressing. So in that sense, I have a bit of a chip about shorter term techniques. And there are CBT techniques that can be incredibly useful. And sometimes you do need quick and short-term solutions for things. But as a way of living, I'm pro the examined life. Take your time, slowness, go deep. I guess I'm suggesting it's all a false dichotomy, which is you could be doing that work and you could also assemble a toolkit

for these acute periods where that's appropriate. That's the tool to pull out at that moment. Yeah, and I refer to cognitive behavioral therapists or to EMDR. I like working with people that work that way. It's just funny to see tribalism percolate up in something so like. Right, I think when it's tribalism,

that's just ego, it's not interesting. Now, take us from Freud's kind of primary concept with the subconscious and then where we're at now. In terms of like psychoanalytic thinking? Yeah. Fun questions. Thank you. So Freud, he introduced a few hugely important revolutionary concepts.

First of all, the idea that we are governed by many forces of motivation that we are unaware of. Just the fact that we're governed by an unconscious was like a huge revolution. We all now take it for granted, but that was huge. And this is like Victorian era, when everything is about just regulating behavior, corsets, and then he introduced the importance

of sexuality as like a driving force, libido sexuality, that it's already alive and kicking in children, that children are motivated by all sorts of sexual fantasies. These were all very big concepts that again, we take it for granted now, but it was huge. Yeah, and dangerous.

And needing to be regulated. We're always regulating sexuality. Society is always super panicky, anxious about sexuality and all about regulation. I find uniquely here, but maybe not uniquely. We're pretty high. We're particularly good at it in America. Yeah, we're high on the spectrum.

And then came people after Freud, like the Kleinians, the British object relation school that started looking not only at drives like sexuality or aggression, but they started looking at early childhood and what happened, for example, between mothers and babies. It doesn't have to be mothers, but they particularly looked at mothers and really early experiences even at the breast where what we like to think of as these beautific moments of bliss between mother and baby actually they hold within them huge dramas. You remember from raising your kids, the baby can be blissfully happy and then 20

minutes later they're wet and hungry and they're like screaming and the world is ending. Worst and best day of their life within 20 minutes. Yeah. The great mom that was there a minute ago, the great dad that was there a minute ago are now the most hated object in the world because they're not able to supply the food fast enough, they're cold, or they're, I don't know, busy on the phone. And those switches between love and hate and between those extreme ways of being are where we all start. And whether the caretakers are going to do a good job of mitigating that kind of daily

crisis is going to shape what we expect for the rest of life. Is the world going to help me when I'm in need or is the world just basically abandoning and sucky? Is this the birth of attachment theory? Yes, for example, attachment theory and all sorts of other ways that we learn to organize our inner world. It's attachment theory, it's the kind of defenses we will use, psychological defenses. A lot gets organized early in life. So that's kind of the object relations school. Then came all the American schools, like the ego psych schools, I gotta get into that.

Blow right through that. Yeah. But then came a very important American school, which is the interpersonal school, which really focused on the quality of relationships, both between caregivers and growing children, but also just generally between people, and how the quality of the relationship shapes the inner world, which is a very American way of thinking, in a good way. I'm not being critical here. And that changed psychoanalysis a lot. The Europeans are still kind of dragging behind on that. And nowadays, there's what we call the relational school

which applies all of that into how we conduct therapy. So we changed from the caricature of the analyst as this kind of remote blank screen that like sits there behind the couch and says nothing scribbling. And if you say to your classical analyst, well, you hate me, the analyst will say, well, what makes you think that?

It must be about your father. So nowadays we don't do that. We involve ourselves more in the sense of, well, what have I done that gives you that feeling right now? Let me bring myself in here as part of what's going on in the room. How am I contributing to what's going on in the room? I'm not like an omniscient know-it-all analyst communing with God and delivering interpretations,

but I'm part of what's going on in the room and I'll take responsibility. So that's where we are now. Do you only do couples? I see individuals. I love the work with individuals. I like the combination. Yeah, the couples are so fascinating.

Yeah. I would like you to tell me what systems thinking is, because I know that's a big aspect of this. Right. Systems thinking is super important when you work with couples and when you work with groups. The idea with systems thinking is that we each bring into the world a set of inclinations

and traits and characteristics, but then when you're joining some kind of group or system, it could be a group of two, it could be a team, it could be a family. The system needs all sorts of things from its members. Like it needs someone to volunteer leadership capabilities. It needs someone to be the caretaker. It needs someone to be the critic.

We need all these functions. When you join a system, the system calls upon its members to volunteer certain functions. And we're each more and less inclined to volunteer certain things, but it will change depending on what team we join. Like with some teams, you'll find yourself, oh, I'm kind of a leader here. And with some teams, you're like, actually, I'm a follower

because there's someone else that's doing it differently and better than me now. So when you work with a couple, you try to understand how they're each drawn into certain roles based on what the couple as a system needs. So it's a very different way of thinking about, let's say a crisis that a couple goes through. You're trying to understand what's going on with the system, with a unit as a whole that leads them to this crisis. How did they each take this role?

When you're raising kids, there are certain things that need to happen and not everyone can do everything. What I was gonna suggest as an example that people I think experience most strongly is they go out into their adult life and they kind of gravitate toward a system that they wanted and then they return home for the holidays and you can feel yourself click into the role

you were ascribed in that situation and you're like, no, no, no, no, I don't want this role anymore. I feel like that's when people are really aware of it. Yes. And that's why around the holidays, I cannot go on vacation. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. If you dare. Moni, what do you think is your role? In my family? Yeah.

Well, I'm about to go home. I'm going home tonight and I'm already anxious. How are you feeling? Already. Where's home? Georgia, they're still there. And I was with them also a couple of weeks ago and I have an incredible therapist as well. And I got back from there and I was like,

I can't shed this. We talk about it so much and it's still here. What's happening? If they don't know how to do something or they ask a million questions, like there's always a million questions. Like, okay, so when we were at the. Can I add so you know, they both moved here from India.

Yes, but my mom grew up. They being parents. Yes, my parents, but my mom grew up. They being parents. Yes, my parents, but my mom grew up here. She came when she was six. And so they came to my hotel and they call and they're like, is it this hotel? And I was like, yeah, that's the hotel I sent you, yes. They're like, okay, well, it's gonna be 30 minutes.

Great, then they call again 30 minutes later. We're here, what about parking? Just park. Park your car. Yeah, like I have done a lot of- Don't leave it in drive. Do not leave it in drive when you get out. That one's not gonna work. And I've done a lot of work on this,

so I was like, don't get mad. Yeah, they don't know where to park, it's fine. Just valet, valet's easy. You can just drive right up and give them the car. Okay. Okay, bye, you know's easy. You can just drive right up and give them the car. Okay. Like, okay, bye. You know, and then they come, everything's great when we're there. And then they're getting ready to leave.

And my dad is like, what about the valet? I was like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean? What's the problem? These are easy things, but there's a million questions because of their anxiety. Speaking of role, is it also because you're born here, you're the one that knows and they get to lean on you?

Yes. Well, and it's dangerous actually, if they expose how out of step they are with what everyone else knows. For me. They're exposing their otherness. That's how I think my subconscious is working, right? As always when we're at the dinner,

if I perceive that my dad doesn't know how to pronounce something, I feel like I have to be the one to order it because I don't want anyone- To translate, to mitigate. Yeah, to not draw attention to the fact that we're different. You're so wonderfully different though, by the way.

I know, I know, I know logically. I just wanted to add that. And he doesn't consciously have any of this. For him, he's just like, I wanna know about the valet. I just wanted to add that. And he doesn't consciously have any of this. For him, he's just like, I want to know about the valet. I've made it this existential thing where, how is he living without me, essentially? You're to answer all his questions.

But can I ask you, speaking of systems thinking, when you're not around, he probably knows how to deal with the valet. Exactly. He's quite successful. Yeah. They are both totally functioning. That's a systems thing. And that's what my therapist is always Yeah, they are both totally functioning.

And that's what my therapist is always like. They are fine. They're living, they're successful, they're doing just fine. But I've made it, if they don't know how to go deal with the valet, they're gonna die. I made it so extreme in my head, because I have a ton of anxiety too.

And I think their anxiety makes me angry because that's where I got this. You're the reason I have this. It's like one silly thing. Again, it's symbolic of everything. I get it. Oh, I get it. It's intense. I totally get it.

Parental, these family arrangements. And then my brother's just there, doesn't care. Cause he's not the girl. He's got a great role in the system. Eight years younger than me. He's got what? He's got a great role in the system. What's his role? He doesn't have to deal with any of the shit and he's not the girl. He's got a great role in the system. He's second, eight years younger than me. He's got what? He's got a great role in the system. What's his role? He doesn't have to deal with any of the shit,

and he's just hanging. Sometimes I look at him and I think, why aren't you feeling this kind of stress that I'm feeling? But that's my issue. Yeah. Oh, anyway, I forgot. Oh yeah, holidays. And systems, trying to evaluate.

I think what's interesting, we've had a systems expert. Talking about systems in general. They're very interesting. They are perfectly designed to produce the outcome you're observing. You have to almost work backwards with systems, right? It's like, no, no, this is the outcome they produce to think that this system will produce a different outcome. We already know what the system produces. Yes. You have done a lot of work on disassociation. Maybe we could dig in a little bit of what that means for people.

I think it's very common. It's a spectrum. The one I'm not familiar with that seems like a sister state is depersonalization. I don't know what that is. Generally dissociation, going back to Freud, you really introduce the concept of repression. That if there's something you don't wanna know

about yourself or something happened to you, you repress it, meaning it happened, you registered it, and then you push it out of mind. You forget. That was in quotes. That was in quotes. Dissociation is a different model of mind. It's when things happen that are either traumatic or to some degree something you can't tolerate, you either don't process it, you kind of leave it hanging and not fully comprehend what it means, or you shunt it towards a part of the psyche that is not your main part of your personality.

You kind of keep it to the side to a part that's kind of not me. That not me over there just registered all those bad things that were happening over there, but I'm not gonna pay attention to it because the me that needs to keep functioning is moving ahead in the world. That almost happened to someone else.

Cause to take that on would be too much. Exactly. So there are many ways to dissociate. Some extreme ways would be multiple personality, what we call dissociative identity disorder. You really shunt parts of the psyche to the side and they develop like a whole world of their own. And this one is so extreme that there's almost a lack of awareness that the other states exist, right?

Right, one of the ways that we think about multiple personality is that one part of the psyche doesn't even know about these other personalities or there's amnesia for what the other personalities are going through. I treat people with multiple or DID. Yeah. Well this season we have someone that's approaching that.

Yes, Alexis, he has a dissociative disorder. And to the degree where he doesn't remember the arguments he's having with his partner. Yes, Alexis, what happens to him is he's very afraid of his own rage and there are all sorts of reasons why. And when he gets triggered and gets enraged or triggered into like a trauma zone, he really switches and becomes a very different kind of person who can defend

himself, who can sort of defend himself more. Yeah, he's trying globally. He's actually making much more pain for himself. Right. That one is hard to watch. And going back to depersonalization, when people depersonalize what happens to them is is, in a way, they sort of remove themselves from what's happening. They either really numb out the feeling or they kind of leave their body

and look at what's happening from the ceiling. Okay, that's what I relate to. You do? Yeah. Having gone through experiences where I go like, okay, we're gonna not pay attention. This is gonna exist. I can observe it,

but I'm gonna be over here distracting myself with my own thoughts and fantasies. And this will end at some point and then I'll rejoin. Yeah, I've had a lot of those experiences. Interesting. So I really relate to that one. I guess I would have thought that was dissociation. It is dissociation.

When we call it depersonalization is when you suddenly find yourself feeling like, actually this doesn't feel real, it feels like a movie. Yeah. That's depersonalization. Or I can't feel the things that are happening to my body, which I know are happening. That's depersonalization. When it's mild, it can be a superpower,

but when it's not mild, it's extremely uncomfortable. And it works. I have done it in the past when it wasn't necessary. Yeah. Do you wanna say something about it? Like that would be a good idea. I was molested, so that was an experience. As a kid?

Yeah, as a kid. There was a lot of violent step dads in the mix, addiction galore, I'm an addict, I've done weird shit. I think it was a very useful tool as I was walking into a crack house in downtown Detroit at four in the morning going, well, this is dangerous for him. Right, but I'm just like floating.

Yes, I am. And I will have the thing I want at some point here in the near future and then I'll rejoin him. And when your actions aren't matching your identity, what you think of yourself as and your actions are not matching up, I think that is common, right? Where you just separate.

Yeah, what is that specifically? Is that the same? When your actions don't match what you say, that could be simply hypocrisy. Right, right. There could just be bad behavior. We have plenty of people like that in the government, but when you're in a way splitting yourself,

when there's a part that's almost zombie-like doing something and your mind is over here, that's dissociation. Specific example would be like when I was a thief, when I was an addict, oh, we were at a person's house. That person was nice. And then I noticed they had extra drugs and then I stole from them and I go, we don't do this. Right. And so there's a disconnect while that dirty business happens. So I'm trying to artfully hit pause on the experience

so I don't have to take on the reality of my behavior in that moment. That's a really great way to describe dissociation. Being in a relationship with someone like that, like in this season. Like Kazimara and Alexis. Yes, feels so heavy. I hate impossible.

He doesn't have memories that the other person has that are painful and aggressive and hurt them, but they don't even know that they did it. It just feels so epic. Yeah, it is epic. I mean, you saw the two of them. What they had going for them is their deep psychological insight into all of this.

And first of all, their profound love for each other. They were in process of working on this stuff. Alexis knew and wanted to get better at it. They were incredible couple to work with. Yeah, I bet. I want to earmark that case because it actually got kind of personal to you and we saw maybe one of your bad word for it, but Achilles. Yes.

Because of course, as a show, you're the hero of our story. So it's interesting to have a pretty insatiable desire to know about you. And there's not a lot of info for us. Well, there is. There is and there isn't. I don't know your history. I don't know about your children. I learn you're from Israel or spent time, you know, little nuggets here and there.

But a lead character normally would have had kind of an introduction where we get the backstory and then we take a journey with them. So it's part of the fun of watching it is you yourself as the lead character of a story we watch is a mystery to us, which is very, go ahead. I have to respond to that. First of all, it's uncomfortable. Just characterologically, but the therapist in a way is to some degree the lead character in a therapy, but also not at all. I'm doing the work. I'm the theory. I was really unspecific in what I was talking about.

There's the reality of what's happening that happens to get captured. And there you're right. You're not the hero of that. Yeah. Then there's a documentary series. That's another thing. I guess I'm less connected to that. As you should be. I'm almost letting you into the perspective of the viewer. That would be hard for you

to probably touch, which is I turn on my television, there's a program presented to me, the couples change, one person stays consistent, the blueprint of my brain for story is that's my lead character, that's my hero. Now that's not the reality of what's happening in the room at all, I'm not suggesting that. Right. This is great, this is uncomfortable, right?

Yeah. What about it is uncomfortable? I can guess. Well first of all, I'm not, look, people go into the profession of being a therapist or an analyst because they're actually quite private. Yeah, yeah. I like being private. I like the story being someone else.

I don't like the idea of me being the main character, but I also have a theoretical belief. I understand what you're saying, but you're joining me not in being myself. You're joining me as the viewer. You're coming with me on this journey to understand how to think, how to listen, not me personally. We're together, we're thinking about what is this human thing, this human journey we're on. If I had used the word guide instead of hero,

would that be less? Triggering. Mm, I don't know. It probably feels like you're dishonoring, really dishonoring what's happening by claiming to be the hero of it. I'm channeling what I've learned to do. And you are, and I would feel that exact same way.

I would think, no, no, no, no, no, don't suggest. I'm the lead of a show. I would think, no, no, no, no, no, don't suggest. I'm the lead of a show. I think you're just saying though, it's human curiosity that takes over a little bit because we are learning so much about the couples. We know everything about these couples. And you're learning how to think like an analyst. Exactly, and then I think human curiosity

starts coming into play where you do start thinking like, what's Orna's deal? But I think that curiosity goes down. Mostly when we talk about it, I don't know if it's come back to me, we talk about couple therapy all the time. I've been on multiple first dates that I bring it up. Like, have you watched this?

You should watch this. It's a prerequisite almost. But everything we're talking about are the things that are arising within the couples, but then how you handle it is part of the conversation. So I think what your hope is is happening. We are taking in how to approach these different conversations.

I'm talking about this vague concept of story. I'm acutely aware of story and the power of story and what we do in the format we somehow innately acquire or just were born with, right? Archetypes and story. We understand the world through story. I mean, even my dog does, honestly. I think a mammal does.

I would agree. Like, wait, you did this, why? Where are we going? And there's an arc here. It's how we're computing this reality we're in. See, multiple things are happening at once is really what it is. It's like you're having your real life experience.

The couples are having their very real experience and they are immediate story where we meet them. We know there's a problem. This is very archetypal. We're gonna slay the dragon together. But unfortunately you're the dragon slayer a little bit in that. I'm gonna be interested in you.

I wanna know about you. I watch you and I'm very drawn to you. I appreciate what you do. And then of course I want to know everything about you. Yeah. So the Achilles heel with Kazimara and Alexis, you were referring to like my savior fantasy. Yes, which by the way, I was so glad you labeled it that

because I suffer from that as well. If I feel like there's someone to be protected, I'm there. So you have a touch of that, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you pick the right profession for it. Right. But I can't imagine it's universal among psychoanalysts.

Yeah, I think it is. You do. I mean, not everyone. I could see someone actually having just an innate desire to solve problems. How about that? And in that case, it's maybe they don't even have that hero complex part of it. Those probably will go more towards CBT. Ah, interesting.

Manual driven, evidence based, you do A, B happens. A little more mechanical. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. I hope I'm not offending anyone. No, I don't think so. I said mechanical, you didn't. Maybe I offended somebody.

So we're almost to the show, which is you have a practice, you've had it for years, you also teach at NYU. Had you been aware of Mating in Captivity? Yes, of the book. And the podcast? Yeah, our podcast has a different name. It might have a different name. Oh, I think you're right.

It has a different name, but yeah, Esther Perel. We've interviewed her a couple times, I adore her to no end. She's awesome. Where should we begin? Where should we begin? Where should we begin, yeah. I heard that.

I love it in the same way I love couples therapy. And in a weird way, I'm gonna compare it to AA, which is this person has a very similar problem I have, and I'm hearing them out loud talk about it, but I'm not getting defensive because it's not aimed at me. I have this little bit of arm's length to recognize and relate and hear solution that may or may not work.

But it was no one pointing a finger at me and saying, so it doesn't trigger any of my defensiveness. I'm so much more open to hearing it when it's not personal to me. And I think listening to Where Should We Begin had that power where it's like, wow, I'm getting to hear her say things to these people that if it were directed at me, I probably would get defensive, but I can hear it

because I'm not in the room, and it's a huge gift. That's a good way of thinking of one of the reasons this works. I think that's why the show is, we'll get to why it's so comforting, but I'm just curious, I have to imagine there were reservations, and is this something that should be consumed by people,

or should this remain private? Big reservations. First of all, as you know, generally when you do therapy, there's this really, really intense firewall of confidentiality. I never talk to people about my patients ever. It's really sacred. And the feeling is that without that frame, it's not going to work. That's like the basic of trust. And then the idea of doing a documentary where you're completely letting go of that. It's like, what's left?

Can you even do therapy? Does it even feel like therapy? So that was a big concern. And is it ethical when people are consenting to it? Do they know what they're consenting to? We had a lot of reservations, a lot. Are they going to be honest? I mean, that's a huge...

Is it going to work? Are they going to be honest? Performative. It's a huge. Is it going to work? Are they going to be honest? Performative. It's just going to be fake. There were many reservations and then not to mention that people told me this is absolutely going to ruin your career. I had like a good career, like what are you doing? People are going to hate you.

And there were many, many fears and reservations, but it turned out that it's definitely different doing it without the frame of confidentiality, but there was so much else going on there that created a different kind of holding and frame for the participants that it worked. Well, I would argue what happens in there often happens in this room, which is people have an awareness

that this will ultimately land in millions of people's laps, but also they forget that regularly, and I forget that. I'm forgetting that right now. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. Seems almost impossible, but then when you're experiencing it, you're like, oh no, it is quite possible. But you originally were just coming on as an advisor,

is that accurate? Yes, my first degree I did in film, and I was like, oh, this sounds like a really interesting project, but I'm worried because they're gonna find someone who's gonna botch the job, and they're gonna portray the therapist as this narcissistic person. And I'm like, Oh my God, let me see if I can influence how they're

going to do it. Oh, interesting. So it kind of started as an effort for you to protect. This the field, the field itself. And then I started talking with Elise and with Josh, the directors, and they're just such amazing people, Their ethics, their creativity, the way they think of documentary, and we talked so much about the parallels between documentary filmmaking and psychoanalysis,

and probably also what you do here. There are many, many parallels, and it just became suddenly a really exciting project. And it required a lot of trust from you, because I will say, I give them an A plus on not being ever exploitative. They're amazing. Which is very, very hard to do.

It's not an easy task. You could even set out with great intentions but that doesn't mean it's not. It's so clean. We've been doing this for years now. I've witnessed them in certain very key moments when there's let's say a certain kind of pressure from the network or test moments

where it was like, are they gonna go for commercial or are they gonna go for ethics? And they always went for ethics. Always. And if any of us had any concern, ethics was always the top, top, top. They're amazing people. Because I would guess, and I didn't even know this

until I started researching you, but that you do do more than the couples we see. There are other couples that we don't follow them. And I would imagine in that situation, there were some that would be quote great for TV. Do people apply? They have a whole recruiting casting arm. They interview thousands and thousands of couples.

I imagine every single couple across all seasons has been incredible. Incredible. I can't believe you've interviewed thousands and thousands of couples. I imagine. Every single couple across all seasons has been incredible. Incredible. Even though there's issues that span across every single couple, they're all so specifically juicy. Oh, it's so good. And very lovable people.

Yes, you love every single one. Even at first, sometimes you don't. Right. I think that's part of the gift of the show is that you can see how you can even feel repulsed by someone, but if you really take the time to listen, you're gonna love them. All right, so now we're at the show and I have now a million questions.

There's just a lot of things you exhibit that I really have a hard time believing someone's capable of it. So, okay, and we will not name names. We better edit stuff out when we talk about the show because I don't want to get sued. We talked about one person and we had to cut it because that's how we might get sued.

Oh my God. Would we, if we said something disparaging about? Well, I was specifically labeling somebody with a condition. I think that could be liable. Because that could impact their- This is someone from our show? Yeah, yeah, previous season. And that could obviously impact someone's employment and everything else.

We can do this without making it specific to anyone. It starts with a question of maybe do you even believe in certain labels? Because the thing I'm astounded by with you is I will often watch someone in the couple's dynamic and I will say, oh, this person's clearly a narcissist. Okay. When someone's a narcissist, now there's a known pattern that we expect. I want that generally woman out of that situation. My

protectiveness. You really seem to resist getting stuck on a label and assuming there's a predictable pattern that needs to be interrupted. How on earth do you do that? Do you believe in labels? Do you believe there are people that are X, Y, or Z? I have like a complex response to that. I think diagnostic labels are sometimes good as quick shortcuts to capture a bunch of information, but they always leave out a huge amount of who the person is. And similar to what we were saying earlier about systems, that systems can call out certain qualities in people. You can be in a certain environment that will, let's say, call out for a lot of

narcissism and you can be in a different kind of environment that is very safe or supportive and somebody that you thought was really a terrible malignant narcissist suddenly becomes like completely capable of caring and seeing another person. Okay, right. So there's a really deep belief in the system. But it's also deep belief in humanity.

We're all very complex and we're capable of a lot, a lot of different ways we can all be. You're telling me a little bit, you've been a thief, you've been different ways. We can all be, you're telling me a little bit, you've been a thief, you've been an addict, you've been this, you've been that, and now you're like. A dad. A dad and like, full of goodwill, I can feel it. Oh, if I were AI and I was a probabilistic predictor,

yeah, I'm not in any of these situations. But do you at all have to fight? The inclination to diagnose. I don't have to fight it. I just know I can diagnose. I've been a diagnostician earlier in life. That's how I got myself through grad school. I did thousands of diagnostic interviews

and I can diagnose a person like that. And sometimes it's useful when you have to triage, when you have to make a quick decision, okay, does this person need to be hospitalized? I can do that very quickly and it can be very useful. And sometimes when I work with people, I can say to myself, okay, narcissism or schizoid or something like that. But it's a temporary station on the way to being a more full, whole person to use narcissism. If someone has really intense narcissistic defenses, there are techniques that we have nowadays to help the person through that stuck way of organizing their psyche towards the capacity to actually see another

person. Another way I might label what I think I observe is like, you have a kind of endless optimism in the whole. I do. I have really strong optimism. I'm romantic. I believe in a better world despite what's happening right now. I believe Israel and Palestine can find a way.

I do. Well, you have to. You have to. You can work backwards. Yeah. I'm going to pee my pants. Oh, wonderful. This never happens.

The second time this has happened in six years. The first time, yeah, six and a half years. Okay. I'll be right back. Goodbye. I'll go too. You have to go. No. Oh, okay. I'll drink some coffee. I'll drink my coffee.

No, no, no. I'm good. I'm a camel. A Mediterranean camel. Oh, okay. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Okay, thanks for bearing with us. Well, that's our first time ever of all three of us having to go to the bathroom at one time. Oh man, I'm so sorry. That was really unique. I never have to pee. Am I making you all nervous?

No, maybe. Well, there is, of course, when we see how observant you are, it'd be crazy to not assume that when we chat, you're probably going to see the reality of what we are. Which is awesome. Well, yeah, I feel kind of- I'm liking you a lot. Oh, good.

Okay, so I understand the resisting the labels and it not even being useful, but I also think we are intuitively pattern recognition machines. I agree. That is useful. Useful and in Achilles or no? I don't think it's in Achilles. What I was trying to say is not that diagnostic labels are not useful, they're stations on the way to something better.

They help you organize information, they help you see a pattern. Let's use another thing, not narcissism. If I see that someone is organized around what we call like a schizoid personality organization. What's that? The tendency to retreat from too much social stimuli and kind of encapsulate one in a very insular

personality organization. Closed off, not too much feeling. That's people's way of defending against too muchness. It's not my place to say it, but that would be the couple this season, Rex and Joey maybe. Yeah. Yes. I know. Yes. against too muchness. It's not my place to say it, but that would be the couple this season, Rex and Joey maybe. Yeah.

Yes. I know. But then, yeah, I won't spoil. As a clinician, it's helpful to identify those patterns so you're not wasting your efforts treating someone as if they're suffering from bipolarity. It helps, like if you realize someone is bipolar or has that inclination to be intensely consumed

by really intense shifts in mood, it's really helpful to know it. It doesn't define everything. But you have a bit of a playbook. Yes. You minimally know what stuff will set them off. Right, exactly. Yes, if someone is bipolar, you know to understand

if they're showing up and they're looking disheveled for a few weeks, you're like, okay. Or on a ramp up. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. By on a ramp up. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. By the way, I imagine that's exactly what would keep your job kind of endlessly interesting, is you're adjusting and react, or not reacting,

we had like a better word for react, we don't wanna react, we wanna, what is it? Respond. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. That's good. I said a no-no word. So yeah, you wanna respond accordingly,

and I bet that it keeps it almost endlessly novel. Yeah. So yeah, two things are happening. It's like one is there is this pattern and that's observable, but then there's all this novelty intermixed. And all these diagnostic entities, you can think of them as just ways that a person figured out how to organize themselves, whether it's because they were born with an inclination to go that way or things happen to them,

but a person is capable of much more than just that. And that's why a therapist is there. You have taken me personally, Monica and I have talked about it, Monica as well, it's like, you have with your endless optimism and hope, there are people that I wrote off in many seasons and we get to episode eight and I'm like,

God, yeah, they're a fucking suffering person, like all of us. And I'm so glad she was patient. I wouldn't have been. And now I'm here. Thank you for bringing me along with you. Yeah, if one of us is like few episodes ahead and then the other person be like,

oh, this person is doing this. Normally it'd be like, just wait. Monica generally is going like, oh, this person is doing this. Normally it would be like, just wait, just wait. Monica generally is going like, oh, well just wait till episode seven. It's beautiful. I feel that this is gonna sound very braggy, but I feel that a little bit about this show will have people in

and people have preconceived notions about a lot of these people. And I think what's nice about it is when you really get to hear someone and hear their story, you like them. Agree. It's the same with all these people. They come in and I'm like, ooh,

and then I miss those people on the next season. It's nice. What I can tell you just from my experience sitting here is that you guys are doing the thing that for example an analyst does. I feel like you're offering a lot of negative space in terms of poetry, like you're really curious and you're giving a lot of space to think and talk.

It's a particular kind of interview. You're not sitting here with your agenda, but you're curious, curious and opening a space and I feel like, oh, I'm enjoying this. Yeah. By the way, I bet that also parallels being a new therapist and being one that's been doing it for a while.

Yes, at the beginning out of fear, I think that also parallels being a new therapist and being one that's been doing it for a while. Yes, at the beginning, out of fear, I think I did drive a more linear line through all this. And then over time, when I was very confident and comfortable, something arose that was much greater than the thing I was aiming at. And then learning to trust that as its own skillset. That's what an analyst does. Should we trade jobs for a couple weeks?

What's your job like? You're seeing it. Yeah, this is my job. This looks like fun. Yeah, right? Yeah. Just a whirlwind of really fun, interesting people cycle through. The one thing I, but we're doing it right now. So my wife and I are watching season five.

Four. And I feel like I'm already gonna know the answer to this. And it's no, but do you have a belief that everyone can be a couple? Cause often I go, oh, I know why they're attracted to each other, but this is really a match made in hell. And I think they both be better off finding someone that, do you enter it with a belief that everyone can make it if they do the work, or are there times where you feel like

you have to help them exit this peacefully? I generally don't feel like it's my job to make that decision unless there's like a really abusive situation where I feel like people get kind of caught in the addiction of abuse and then I feel like my job is to at least try to help them break that but that's rare most people are not caught in that and even people who are temporarily caught in that, they want help. They want to get out of it. And then I try. But other than those cycles of S&M abuse and mutual destruction, it's not my job to say

who should stay together or who not. I'm going to help you try to stay together and bring out the best in you, the best version of what you can be. And I'm not here to levy a verdict. Right, people are incredible. They do all sorts of really amazingly surprising things, who they choose to be with and why, and what couples end up having like a long, long, long marriage

that you never would have predicted, and others you thought they're a match made in heaven and they break up. People are unpredictable, thank God. Well, we even talk about like the success rate for arranged marriages. You have to take that on board too. That's a reality. Right. I can't predict what's going to work or not. I try to help people just make the best of what they want to do. Yeah, it sounds like it's an incredibly

low percentage and that kind of makes sense because there's some self-filtration process that they would end up in front of you in the first place. That you've definitely weeded out some sector that's on some hell bent collision course. They're not looking for help. But on the occasions where it has happened, do you ever break the bond of the system? Do you do it in the room or have you had to sidebar

a member of the couple and say, I'm worried about you? And does that feel like a betrayal of the, if that has happened? That's a really good question. It's kind of a technique question. You're asking a technique question, right? Not about the show. Correct.

In general. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, we're dipping in and out. I rarely see people separately. I like to see couples together because of my strong leaning on systems thinking, but once in a while I've had situations where I've asked one person

to actually leave the room so I can talk to one person and talk to them really face-to-face head-on about how abusive they're being and I didn't want to humiliate them in front of their partner. So I've had that. I've had situations where I felt like someone is really not at all acknowledging the degree to which their alcoholism is getting in the way of anything that could be possible in the room. And again, not to humiliate them, I would have their partner leave the room and talk to them directly.

But most of the time I try to keep it in the room. Yeah, so you have this incredible optimism and understanding, and then also you have this very sexy set of boundaries and directness. Now this is where I think there's a little bit of the Israeli in there. Totally. When they're highly disagreeable group in our societal studies.

Is it easier for you to be direct like that? Yes, it's totally an Israeli thing. Yeah. It's very, very cool. I'm like really impressed the way you wrangle some tigers. That's Israeli. Have you ever been to Israel? No, I haven't.

Everyone's like that. It's all wrangling tigers. Well, we have a lot of sociologists on and we'll talk about these different indexes across culturally and we all have these fun things and a fear of power. You know, Brazil is very high in their fear. Israel has zero fear of power. America is close. So I think it's really fascinating these different cultural differences.

Yeah, the patience you have with some of these people. What season was it? It was a Jewish couple. Michael and Michal. Yes, yes. And I ended up loving them. I loved her. I know.

Let's be honest, her. Yes, but at first. Both of them. At both of them. Yeah, but at first, she was a lot. She was coming in hot. Yeah, she was coming in hot. Yes, very.

And I was. You're a loser and you don't like, you know, it's like blatantly going, I'm like a loser. Yeah. So that's a rough first cell. And I was so impressed by you not immediately jumping on her, I was like, get her out of here, like I would not be able to handle this.

So I do think you and probably couples therapists in general have to have an extreme level of patience? And then also, do you think you care a lot? How do I ask this? Like, do you care a ton about justice? Yes. Not in the world, but like my running thing, that's a justice issue for me.

I'm way too easily triggered by quote injustices, not real heavy injustices. Those are fine. No, those are way worse. But my guess is most people have a problem with that. Pull pot, you get a pass. These fucking people on the sidewalk. Well, everyone's just a person, you know, I don't know.

But no, so I would guess that it's actually a little lower because some of the people in your office are committing these quote injustices a lot. Like even that, even that example of just straight up, like you're a loser, to me that's horrible. You can't talk to someone like that. And that's my own trigger. I would assume you don't have that or you turn it off.

It's a good question. I mean, if you saw with Ping and Will, did you see Ping and Will? Yes, yep. I confronted her very harshly about the way she was talking to Will. That's true. I don't know if I can figure out the rule here

or how it works for me. It's some kind of gut feeling. With Michal, I could sense that with all the, I'm gonna use a label, like histrionic suffering, I could sense her suffering under and that she needed to be calmed down. She was like a fussy baby. And telling her to stop wasn't gonna work.

She needed to trust you. Yes, I needed to build trust. In the moment that was the salient knockout punch, my wife was watching this and heard this in a way I've never heard, you said, and that's your anxiety. Yes, exactly. That was the moment I thought all that goodwill got you to the point where you could say,

and that is your anxiety. And that's why you're suffering from it, because it's in you. Yes, which I had to say many times, it wasn't that open to that, but eventually, yes. You really brought her there. It was really beautiful to watch. So I have different triggers.

I don't necessarily watch it and think something's unjust. I also go to the person who is generically subservient in this. And then I'm more curious. Why does that please you? You have found yourself in this situation. Well, that's systemic thinking. Okay, right. Yes.

Okay. Yeah. Cause I'm like, no one's a victim. No one woke up, that's systemic thinking. Okay, right. Okay, yeah. Because I'm like, no one's a victim. No one woke up. Here's your partner. Fuck you, deal with it. So we're all getting something out of us and trying to figure out why is this soothing to me is interesting.

I agree. That was the most interesting piece of in the first season, there's a couple that we've referenced before. Again, upon first glance, the male seems to be very controlling, let's say that. But actually what me and Dax ended up talking about a ton was what was she getting out of the relationship? That was way more interesting actually.

And she was getting a lot. Yeah. Oh, okay. Let's talk about the throuple. They're not a throuple. Oh, so sorry. They're a polycule. A poly what?

Polycule. Cule. Polycule. Polycule. Cule. Polycule. Polycule. Yeah. A threeple is when all three are. Oh, they're all engaged with each other. Sexually intimately involved, they're not.

Great distinction, and I didn't mean to screw that up. Now, full disclosure, I was in an open relationship for nine years. It was lovely, but our rules was like, I want you to like me, so I'm just gonna say, we met cheating on people. When I was 21, she was 20. I very much loved her.

I said, I think if this is one of the requirements for you and I to make it long-term, I'm afraid we're gonna break up over this. And I don't want to. I would like to have a baby with you. I wanna stay together and we've demonstrated we're bad at this. What about that?

We demonstrated we're bad at monogamy. We both were cheating on, yes, we're bad at monogamy. Like, let's call this what it is. And then many, many talks. Our arrangement was basically, I don't really care if something happens and I don't know about it. I have no desire to hear about it, and that was the thing. So that worked pretty darn good for us.

There was evolutions over the course of nine years. All that to say, the Pali scenario seems so complicated because you have three relationships happening. You have like the two individual relationships that are happening and then their collective relationship. And they all have other relationships. Yeah. And now I'm gonna expose my old foggy puritanicalism.

I have a hard time watching it going, guys, this is not tenable. I know. I have a pessimism about how tenable that is. Again, it's almost impossible for two humans to cohabitate. It's so hard and it's not just, it's twice as hard. It's a permutation math equation. It's actually like nine times harder. There's some math there.

And so has that even been hard for you or does that challenge your optimism? Or you seem to be very optimistic even about the polyandry life? Polyandry, I love that. I fucked that up. The poly life. That just means women I think who have multiple partners, polyandry.

I'm learning from patients and participants about the world of non-monogamous different kind of social structures. My patients and the participants on the world of non-monogamous, different kind of social structures. My patients and the participants on the show, in a certain way, they're my teachers. The way I'm thinking about it, what I've come to this far is when you're in this kind of poly arrangement, there are heavy prices to pay, certain kinds of safety, possessiveness that we all have. We like to know what's ours.

This is my toy. Am I the most special? There are all sorts of things that most of us want and need. But what I'm also learning is several things. They're gaining what they've said to me many times, more love, more joy, more sex. They've got more. As an addict, that sounds very appealing.

It sounds appealing. I mean, so I'm joining you, whatever works for you, as long as people are not getting hurt too much, as long as truth is being preserved in a certain way, you're respecting each other's contracts. I'm learning with you how this goes. And I don't know, I don't have a conclusion. Right. You did at one point this season have sessions with the two unique pairs within. They wanted it. Oh, they did? They wanted it. Oh, they did?

They wanted it like that. Would that have been an instinct of yours? My instinct is always who's my unit? If this is the system, I'll meet all three of you, but they taught me that it's not necessarily the three of them that is the unit. They have this kind of other map. Yeah, they're dancing around this term primary partner.

Yeah. And there's some hesitation on one person to declare a primary partnership. It was really interesting, but I also, this is not what you're asking, but I'm just going there. Please. There's a way in which I've come to think about all these new structures of relationship as a way that the younger generation is organizing in response to the big things that are happening now, like climate crisis.

Interesting. And ways that the general social structures have collapsed. They're looking for new ways to be. They're looking for how can we live as a community that is not about each tiny little unit circling the wagons around our little unit and everyone else is an enemy. They're doing something that I find really interesting and politically interesting.

Inclusivity. Inclusivity in a big way. Yeah, that's a very interesting take on it. It's almost like I see the generation before me, I see their approach, I see the outcome, I see the system and the results of the system. So maybe I'm rejecting all parts of the system or many parts of the system.

And this one would be the most fundamental for minimally our American history. The family unit. Yeah. Family values. They're looking at us and they're like, you guys suck. What have you left us? Yeah, what are you preaching about?

You're either telling me how to live life? You're either together and you hate each other. No, I'll tell you a new thing. Yeah, you're either together, but you hate each other. Yeah. Or you're divorced. Yeah. Congrats. Things are zero if we fuck this up. And then one of you is gonna be so poor, you're gonna be homeless, and then who's gonna support you?

Yeah. Yeah. But it's hard though, because I love that. I love this idea of inclusivity and do what you want and make your own arrangement. It's not do what you want. They don't live do what you want and make your own arrangement. It's not do what you want. They don't live do what you want. Well, within the rules that they build.

Right, they're very conscious of ethics and of respect. But it's a new arrangement that they've created. And I'm for that. But then you see these sessions and you see this unfold and it is hard not to watch and think, but we're just humans at the end of the day who want, yes, to feel special, to feel picked, to feel like someone's person and only person. These very primal things are sprouting up within the new

arrangement. Right, although humans, I mean if we think not only with Western eyes, humans have all sorts of social structures. Bedouins live very differently. Yeah, historically, 95% of the time we've been here as a species, we were not monogamous. We have much, much proof in the archeological record that generally high status people had multiple partners and wives and it was communal. So yeah, it is new.

But then why did monogamy evolve? Well, there's a ton of people who are anti-monogamy that'll tell you a lot of it is transference of property. Yeah, it has ties with capitalism. Yes, and the ability to join families, join alliances, the control of I'm putting this daughter with that king's son, the Catholic church. Okay, so maybe I shouldn't say why did monogamy evolve.

Why did jealousy within these constructs evolve if we didn't even really. Then we get into another thing that we don't have anymore is a really clearly defined hierarchical order of the group we're in, which would have been a hundred members. So all this anxiety we have about where we are on the status ladder would have been assigned and defined.

You actually wouldn't have spent much time thinking about it. You would have said, Oh, I'm gamma in this situation. There's no aspiring to hire. I'm here. So in a bizarre way, like things were much more defined, but here in this individual, you could be the highest status person in America in 10 years. You could be the lowest status. We don't know.

And then we look for all these symbols to alleviate our anxiety about that hierarchical status. And some of those involve a single partner and the most desired and all these symbols to alleviate our anxiety about that hierarchical status. And some of those involve a single partner and the most desired and all these different things. So I definitely think it's cultural. I don't think it's primitive or biological. Agree. It's complicated and that's why they're very devoted

to study relational dynamics. People who live in these alternative arrangements, they put so much work into how to relate. It's so much work. Yeah. People think it's just an easy way out. It's hard. No, no, no. It's way more work than like a couple.

Yeah. The one in particular on the show this season, I'm looking at, I'm like, oh my God, it's two wives is what it is. It's hard enough to just be with one person and you're just doubling that. It's a lot of emotional labor. Yes. I guess I wanna end with the thing that I think is the biggest gift of the show. At least for us and a lot of other couples

I know that watch it. It is so comforting to see that it is hard, that it's not a fairy tale, that it's a lot of work, it's a lot of communication, it's a lot of thoughtfulness of where you're trying to go. You won't just get there. The simple fact that every single patient you've had on the show, one person wants more sex and one wants less. I mean, that's what's universal in a couple.

Totally. That's comforting. Yeah. You just, admittedly you go like, oh yeah, this is normal. They're all different. Radically different and all the same thing. That's the comfort of AA is like, I'm not alone. Knowing you're not alone is so deeply comforting. And I think you really put on display

how much you can tackle these things. Your hopefulness is really quite infectious. I think that's my summation of why. Well, as a single person, I'll say I watch it and I think that's my summation of why. Well, as a single person, I'll say I watch it and I think, whoa. Maybe not. Maybe it's, it is still hopeful. It's like, maybe this is fine, my situation.

Because you always want what you don't have. You're walking around feeling like I'm missing this piece. And that's the reality of it, being in a couple. It's work. Yes. Okay, I have one last personal question for you, which is spending your days in your emotional energy, wading through all of this, how has that impacted your own life in partnering?

My life and partnering. Meaning in your personal life, does it have an impact on for you partnering up with somebody? Well, let me first talk about life in general. Okay. I have a close friend, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner.

I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not a partner. I'm not a partner, I'm not every day. I love the people I work with. I feel so lucky to be doing what I'm doing. I get to care about people, to develop trust.

To be trusted is one of the most beautiful feelings. It's beautiful for people to give me their trust and to show up for that. It's an incredible thing, but it's also really heavy. I carry within me a lot of difficult stories, a lot of pain. You're a cop in a way. Yeah.

Who sees it all. Who sees so much. Luckily I see other things than what cops see. But an inordinate amount that a human's probably not designed to observe. It's hard. And I guess if I applied that to relationships, it's a mixed thing.

I know a lot about human relationships and I know a lot about myself in human relationships so I can be very wise in certain ways. But I think I've developed, and I think a lot of analysts are like that, I've developed a certain kind of remove that is probably not easy for people who are romantically close to me and not easy for friends.

There's a certain level of like, I've seen it all, I know. Right. Yeah. Been there, done that. I know how this is gonna play out. I'll add, there's the housekeeper who doesn't clean their own house. I was a car prepper for 14 years and I had the dirtiest car in the world.

I'm not gonna wash my car after I've been washing cars. So I can imagine also a little bit of a fatigue. It's all day and then you walk into your kitchen and you're like, oh, fuck it, now I gotta do this for me now. I know, yeah, there's some of that. But I think the remove is probably the, that's what Ayel and I often talk about.

Whoever's really in our lives and close to us have to suffer that. Yeah, well Ornon, this has been so wonderful. For me too, really. You guys are awesome. Oh, thank you. You're awesome. Oh, thank you. You're awesome. Really, really awesome. Yeah, talk about privilege,

like to fall in love with someone on TV and then actually get to sit with them. Yeah, it was a joke at first. We were like, do you think we could ever have Orla on the show? Yeah, so this is a huge first. So yeah, it's really nice. Very, very exciting. Thank you.

I love this show so much. Monica loves this show so much. The new season is out on the 31st. Do you know where it streams now? I'm a little confused by that. It used to be on Showtime, but they didn't have it anymore. It's on Showtime, which is now Paramount Plus.

Oh, okay, great. It's on Paramount Plus. Not the new season, but they're showing other seasons on other platforms, I think on- Hulu or something. TV and- Oh, okay. It's on some airplanes.

I know a lot of people- Definitely on them. That's how I discovered it. I know. Shout out to our friend Jed them. That's how I discovered it. I know. Shout out to our friend Jedidiah Jenkins. We were interviewing him and he proselytized about how we have to be watching couples therapy

and then ironically I was on a flight. Three days later I'm scrolling through, I'm like, oh, there's that thing. Watch two, got to my hotel room. Okay, must find out what's gonna happen. Once you start, there is no stopping. Cannot recommend it enough. It's so comforting whether you're in a relationship or not,

but I find it enormously comforting. I hope we get to do this again. Nico, great job. Nico's here for the listener. If you do watch Couples Therapy and you know about Nico the dog, Nico joined us and was a very good girl. Yeah.

Very good. Look at her. Look at her. Look at her. You know at first I think, cause you said can I bring Nico or someone reached out to us and we were like of course and then I thought stupidly,

I'm like oh I wonder if Nico is a comfort dog and then I read enough interviews about you that actually Nico has a tremendous separation anxiety. So here you have a, I was like talk about that you can just can't endlessly find your way into these situations. Like your dog is a patient. separation anxiety. So here you have it. I was like, talk about that you can just can't endlessly find your way into these situations. Like your dog is a patient.

My patients make so much fun of me about my dog having separation anxiety. Aw. Nico knew that she was being talked about, so now she's showing up. Yeah. Okay, so much fun. Adore you.

Everyone watch season four of Couples couples therapy on the 31st. Next up is the fact that I don't even care about facts I just wanna get into your pants. Wow. I kinda put this on for you. I love it. I just took out my super filthy. You didn't wear that on the airplane?

No. Lincoln was wearing hers, so we got plenty of attention. You were wrapping. Yeah. Oh, you were recording here last. Charlie. I can always tell with your headset volume. Yeah.

Yeah, my long sleeve t-shirt that I've been in for 25 hours was so filthy. So I had to quickly put on- Stains? Yeah, stains everywhere. That kind of off-white color, not a great choice for an airplane ride. And then I quickly grabbed a shirt and I thought, God, I'm wearing my Taylor Swift shirt for you.

Wow, I love it. I don't have that one. I don't have it in black. Oh, you have it in white? Yeah. I do too. How many, oh my God. Okay, first of all, before you reveal too much, remember we aren't editing.

Yeah, oh, right, right, right, right. So be careful what you say. And I'm a little loopy, yeah, so this could be a high risk scenario. Be careful what you say, be careful what you wish for. Okay, well, I already got what I wish for. Oh. But boy, was it eventful. I. Well, I already got what I wish for. Oh.

But boy, was it eventful. I mean, did you already hear any of the drama? No, you texted Rob and I on Friday, right? On Friday, and you said, hey, you're supposed to be home yesterday. And so you said, hey, due to a crazy chain of events, I won't be home till Tuesday at three. So we need to record at five, whatever.

And I had an idea, I thought I knew what happened. Okay, hit me with what your theory is. I thought, oh no. Because I would imagine this could have traveled through the pod by this point. Well, I thought, oh no. Well, oh my God, I already wanna edit.

You're so stressed. I'm so stressed. Okay. Okay, the next day you sent connections in. Yeah. So I knew nothing like so bad was happening. Right, right, I wasn't in the hospital. Well, though you could play connections in the hospital.

I would be so mad if you were in the hospital and I didn't know. Right, and I just was playing connections like you have now. Yeah, exactly. But you were playing connections and you said, I'm in France, I'm sending this from France. So blah, blah, blah.

And I thought, oh, I know what happened. Okay, what do you think? The Portugal concert was for next weekend. Oh, that's a good pick. And France is this weekend. So I've rerouted. So you had to pivot. Okay, it's a good pick. And France is this weekend. So I've rerouted. So you had to pivot. Okay, it's much worse than that. Oh my God.

And we're not editing, so this is gonna be a tricky story to tell, but. Okay. For reasons it'll become obvious. Okay, so Thursday morning, Lincoln and I get up. We're so excited. I cannot express how excited we both were for two whole weeks leading up to this.

It's like the most excited we've been about anything ever. So we are on it, we leave early, we ride the motorcycle to the airport. We're there so early. I've got the bags like fucking bungee, not bungee, but ratchet strapped to the side of the motorcycle. Oh my God.

Carry on only, we said, so that we could ride the motorcycle. Smart. We get there, we're high fiving, we're already celebrating. We're supposed to be there two hours early. We're there two hours and 15 minutes early. Wow.

Checking in on a United flight. Okay. Which is supposed to go from LA to, fuck now, I can't even remember where we were. We had a layover. Washington DC. Oh my God, yes, we were flying to Washington DC and then from DC direct to Lisbon.

So we're checking in, I'm feeling so good, we're so happy, and she's scanning Lincoln's passport. And she does it like five times in a row. And she looks at me and she goes, there's a problem with your daughter's passport. It's expired. And my whole soul left my body. Oh no.

Because this isn't something you can solve. Right, you can just buy another ticket. And we are only, like the way this is gonna shake out with everything going perfectly is we're gonna get there Friday afternoon and then we're gonna have Friday night and then Saturday is the concert. Okay, okay.

It's 11.35 after, I don't even know what time it is. And Lincoln immediately starts crying, as you'd expect. Of course, of course. This isn't like, this isn't Disneyland. It's not Disneyland and there's nothing to replace it with. I have this immediate thought of like, oh, what now? What do we do?

How do we salvage this? There's no salvaging it because it's Taylor Swift. And it's Saturday. And like, there wasn't a bunch of other flights even in the best case scenario. We don't have a passport. So I immediately call like everyone I know that might know someone that has like a fixer.

Yeah. And also trying to act like to Lincoln we're gonna solve this. Oh you are? And in my mind, we're not gonna solve this. Oh you were, you were like it's done. No, because how am I gonna get a passport in the next few hours then return

and hope there's a flight that night that gets us in it. Was there a Sunday show also? You could like maybe try to get tickets. No, there's no Sunday show. It's Saturday, that's it. Saturday or bus? Yes, and like so many things are going through my mind. It's like, this isn't gonna work, but I can act like,

we're gonna just keep trying. And also what would be a backup plan? So I'm also like filing through, do we go to Orlando? No, you know, again, nothing's gonna, what we're gonna do and I know we're gonna, we're gonna drive home and have the worst weekend of our life, because we, we're so excited. So, I basically get on the phone with a fixer.

The fixer says, I can pull a bunch of strings, it's so much money, and I can get you an appointment at 10 a.m. on Friday. That's the earliest. And I'm like, that is not gonna help. And he's like, that's all that can be done. And I'm like, goodbye. I go, let's go Lincoln.

I strap the luggage back to the motorcycle. We then race to the federal building on Wilshire. In like kind of Santa Monica? In Santa, yes. Wilshire in the 405. That far from the airport, okay. But a mess, it's like Traffic City, like we get up there, we walk in,

well we don't walk in, you're not allowed to walk in there. Okay. All right, this is part of the story that's gonna get dicey. The fixer part wasn't already dicey. Well it didn't work. It didn't work, it didn't work. We- Whatever, this is the reality.

We get up there. God, I don't wanna get anyone in trouble. Do you know, oh, okay. Bottom line, let's just say this. A complete miracle happened. I was able to enter there, but you need both parents. You can't get a passport for your kid without both parents because that could be a parent like stealing the kit.

So I am like calling Kristen, you know she won't answer. I text her, this is kind of emergency, you really need to answer. Luckily, she then FaceTimed me. I go, you need to get to the federal building right now and get her birth certificate from home, which I don't even know if we know where that's at, right? God bless Kristen, I don't know how, we know where that's at, right? God bless Kristen.

I don't know how, she was in a rehearsal for Reefer Madness in a theater and she- In Hollywood. In Hollywood and she squealed up to the federal building like 24 minutes later. Wow. With the birth certificate. Oh my God.

Long story short, we walk out of there at 3 p.m. with a fucking passport. And now I'm like, how do we get, I find a flight that leaves at 7 p.m. that goes to London, that then goes to Paris, that then goes to Lisbon. That was the France. Wow. So now we have like four plus hours in the airport.

We got there at 11, the flight's at seven. We had this trip to the federal building, but you know, it's a long day. Yeah. Now a really nice icing cherry on the cake was, we're checking in and I hear Lincoln go, "'Hi, Lauren!' I look behind me, Lauren Graham're checking in and I hear Lincoln go, hi, Lauren. I look behind me, Lauren Graham's checking in for a flight.

I'm like, oh my God. I'm like, you're not gonna believe, where are you going? I go, no, you're not gonna believe this. We didn't have a password. You know, I go through the whole story. So we hung out with Lauren and Sam Pancake for two of the hours, which was really, really fun.

What's Sam Pancake? Sam Pancake's a great actor and one of Lauren's best friends, and he's super funny and wonderful. Oh. And they were going to Scotland together or something. Oh, fun. So, whatever, we kill another three hours in the airport,

and then we fly to London, then we fly to Paris, then we fly to Lisbon, and we get in at basically one in the morning on Friday night. So all told, we only lost 12 hours. Okay, not bad. Not terrible. I mean, I really, up until. Wow.

Like when we landed in Lisbon, I've never felt like I pulled off the impossible. Yes. More than any other moment in my life. Wow. Oh, the stakes in my life. Wow. Oh, the stakes were so high. So. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad it worked out.

Yikes. Oh, God. No passport. You're like this. That's so sad. Yeah, this is done. Oh. So then Saturday, we were like, are we gonna walk around a bit? But we were fucked from the day before. And also adrenaline dump for those three hours

before we got the passport, the riding the motorcycle. How was she? How was she during all of this? Well, I'll tell you, she cried intermittently, but she had her shit together and then it was time to get on the motorcycle. She was all business. And then when we got to the thing

and found out you couldn't go inside that building, she started bawling. Yeah. Kind of the perfect time imaginable. Oh. Yeah, sure, sure. Yes. So, but we were like, you know what?

We're not gonna be ambitious on Saturday. We woke up, we went down to the pool, we took a swim. The whole hotel is Swifties. Oh, I missed the best part. When we got in at 1230 or whatever, when we pulled up to our hotel, we found out she was staying at our hotel. No, stop! When we got in at 1230 or whatever, when we pulled up to our hotel, we found out she was staying at our hotel.

No, stop! So Lincoln stayed on the balcony of our room waiting for the police motorcade to bring her back, which she saw. So Lincoln was like screaming from the balcony. Oh, that is so. I'm like, girl, play it cool, you gotta play it cool, because if we pump into her,

you can't be like fucking hollering and stuff. Of course she can, Of course she can. Of course she can. Now, if we have any shot of getting like invited to lunch with her or something, we gotta be like huge fan, but I'm not gonna freak you out. No, Taylor loves kids.

I saw a video of her like, you know, head down trying to walk out of a building. Everyone's screaming at her. And then there was a little kid and she turned around and went and hugged the little kid. So you gotta use these powers while you can. Okay, okay, I just, I had bigger fantasies. I'm like, we're gonna bump into her

and we're gonna have lunch with her or something. This was my fantasy. Anyways, so everyone at the hotel is Swifties. Wow. So it's really fun already. Everyone's like, are you here to see Taylor Swift? So all the little girls are talking, right? And I'm the only dad there, as you would imagine.

It's just like a bunch of moms with their daughters and I'm at the pool. And then we go to the show and this is, now listen, we like winks. Okay. I'll let you decide. Oh no! Oh God.

In fact, I know we're not editing and we're in a little bit of a time crunch, but I am gonna try to quickly just send you one video while I tell you about... The show kicks off. You know better than anyone, you've already been, it's incredible, right? I'm in all pink, I should say.

I got a full pink outfit so that I'm, because you have to go as an album, as you already know, and Lincoln wanted me to go as a lover, and so I had a whole outfit, so I was head to toe pink. Okay, let's see if this video went through. Because to my knowledge, this song has never been played at a Taylor Swift show. Okay, hold. Crank the volume.

Say you'll remember me, staring in the night, staring at the stars and saying, baby, you're missing all of me. You're losing cheese. Say you'll see me, I can't keep it, it's just a new love. I'm staring at the sky and said, baby, the most amazing thing I've ever seen. Say you'll see me, I can't keep it. It's just a dream. Wildest dream. That's my song that she wrote about me,

if I need to remind the listeners. You do, you do need to. He's so tall and handsome as hell. He's so bad, but he does it so well. When she fucking played Wildest Dreams, I lost my mind. Okay. Cause she doesn't play that song. That's what I've been told.

Well, that's okay. So I'm not gonna look it up. Cause I don't want to ruin it. To destroy my fantasy. Was she playing that as one of the secret songs? Because you know, she plays two secret songs at each show. Okay. Oh, it wasn't acoustic.

It was not acoustic. She played a bunch of songs off of the- TTPD. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Department. But she also does two secret- Rob, can you look up the two secret songs from this Portugal show?

I'm curious. Oh, okay. Okay, cause she also played, so my three favorite songs are Wildest Dreams, Lavender. Yeah, yep. Wait, did she play that one you saw? Yes, that's in the set. I mean, okay, I don't know how to handle this.

And then Willow. That's in there too? Yeah, Lav haze, yes, okay, so. But I gotta set up just really quickly. Of course, my joke for two months has been that she's going to play wildest, because I tell my children that she wrote this song about me.

I know. It's like a long standing thing that Taylor Swift has written a song about your dad. And fucking by God, she pulled that out and Lincoln was like, she didn't play that in LA. I'm like, duh. Okay, I think that could be true. I don't really think.

And I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I mean, I don't think. I got, okay. This is, clearly I'm joking. No, I'm not. I'll be very clear right now I'm joking. But I did let my imagination wander. Of course. And I was like, what if she's a goddamn huge fan

of the podcast? I know. Just because she won't do it doesn't mean she's not a huge fan. And I was talking about going to the show and I've also talked a million times about the songs about me. I don't really think that happened,

but I let myself for like 1% of my brain fantasize that that was what was happening and that she loves winking too, like Wynna. Yeah, Wynna's been winking. People love to wink, this is my conclusion. People do love to wink. I have a feeling if she was a fan, it would have got to us,

even if she didn't wanna come on the show. She's not a fan. I don't really think that. Yes, I mean mean maybe one day. She could be though, why couldn't she be? We don't hear about everyone that. So often we have a guest come in and all of a sudden they tell us they love the show

and that blows our mind. It's shocking. But I do think she sort of makes it known. I think one time she wrote a note to Alison Roman. Okay. That's huge. It is huge, but that's not to say she's writing a note to every single person she likes. That's huge. It is huge, but that's not to say she's writing up to every single person she likes.

That's true. Also, Elson's more of an underdog. That me should be much more followers than me. Okay, okay. Did you figure it out, Rob? That wasn't one of the surprise songs. Okay, what were they? The Tortured Poets Department, spoken intro,

contains elements of Now That We Don't Talk, and You're On Your Own Kid. Okay. Yeah. Okay, cool. Ah, it delivered for me though. Wasn't it so good? I got those three songs.

Yes, it's so long. It was, I looked, it was, I think, three hours and 30 or three hours and 40 minutes. Yeah. But in reality, it only felt like an hour and 45, and we didn't have seats. I think three hours and 30 or three hours and 40 minutes. But in reality, it only felt like an hour and 45. And we didn't have seats. We were standing the entire time. Were you on the floor?

Yeah. Oh, got it. Cool. I exchanged bracelets with people. You did? Yes, of course. I brought bracelets back for the people that worked at the hotel

because they couldn't go to the show. That's nice. Yeah, I got into the spirit of it. It was really fun. Isn't the energy so special? It is, it totally is. I was crying. I didn't cry as much as I thought I might

because I was pretty busy dancing. Oh sure. Although I did cry a little bit while I was dancing. Oh gosh. Because at one point we were really dancing, Lincoln and I. It was so fun. Aw, that's so fun.

So it was- Try not to clear your throat. I normally cut those. Oh, okay. It's gonna be hard because I'm a little bit of a mess right now. Okay, so I'll just speed through the rest. Then Sunday, we decided we're gonna walk Lisbon,

all of Lisbon, which we damn near did. We walked miles and miles and miles and miles. We took a tuk-tuk ride. Oh, ding ding ding. Yeah, did a tuk-tuk tour of the city, and then had them drop us at this big castle. And then I said to Lincoln, Lincoln was all over the map. She's just like me, she's such a control freak.

And I said to her, I'm gonna ask you to really roll the dice and trust that I can walk from this castle back to our hotel and I'm not gonna look at the map or anything. Wow. And it was all twisty crazy, you know, Portuguese, Lisbonese streets.

And I walked us straight to the hotel. Wow. And she declared, I'm gonna trust you now for your directions forever. I'm sure that'll change on the next trip. But it was great. It was such a medal of honor. Valor.

What a moment. We walked, I was so proud of her, cause she's 11. But she walked the entire time. She walked, I bet we walked 10 miles, 12 miles. Yeah. Did you guys eat anything yummy? McDonald's that night, that was our big reward.

You know what's funny is of course you don't wanna take your kids to McDonald's, because you're in another country and you wanna try something fun. But then I was remembering when I went to Germany with my mom in high school, all I wanted to do was eat a fucking McDonald's. I wanna do so bad, she let me once,

but it was a battle and I'm like, I'm gonna do it, we're gonna eat at McDonald's. It's the nicest McDonald's I've ever been to in my life. Did they have Portuguese items? Not that I noticed. No, it was pretty standard McDonald's fare. Okay. And then Monday, we'd already walked the city.

We were like, oh, let's go explore this park. So we explored the park. And then I was like, I really wanna ride a moped around this city, a scooter. And she's like, look it up, see if there is one. There was one like 0.1 miles away. We walk into this place, Eurocar, they've got like 20 motorcycles you can rent.

10 minutes later, we're driving away, they got helmets. And then we ripped through Lisbon all day on a motorcycle. Nice. A scooter day on a motorcycle. Nice. A scooter, like a 250. Like it went pretty fast. Nice. Yeah, so scootered all day yesterday and then had to wake up at 3 a.m.

to get in the car at four to be at the airport for our 6 a.m. flight to Germany and then three hour layover. All that to say, I got up at a.m. flight to Germany and then three hour layover. All that to say, I got up at three. Sure. Which is- Three yesterday? Which was 6 p.m. yesterday. Got it, got it.

Yeah. Rob, did you get us a best boy statue? They sent another one. Oh! They sent us a second one, because they heard our shout out. Oh! Oh, that's so cute!

Good eye! Well, of course I- I lost you at the motor scooter. Your eyes started wandering, you were realizing there was new items in the attic. I'm like, what is she looking at? I'm like, what is she looking at? Well, they start talking about the CCs.

That was probably where you went. You went a-wandering. I don't know about that. All right, well, that's so fun. Yes, it was incredible. So special. Really special. I'm glad you made it there.

Unreal. I mean, that's the most adrenaline I've had in some time. That's the time. I think it took a year and a half off my life, which I think is worth it. It's a good trade. I think it's worth it because it was with your daughter, but I also don't like you saying that

because I have death on the mind because of Six Feet Under. You've continued on. I've continued on. Because the last fact check check you were like, I remember why I stopped watching it, cause of all the death. Yes.

Which made me fearful that you were then gonna bail out. No, I'm... What? It sounded like you burped. No. Oh, I got scared. Did I? I might have, I just had a big chug of alcohol.

You did have a big drink. Yeah. Big slurp. Anywho, so yeah, I am on season two now and something really bad happened. What? I found out a spoiler. Oh, yeah.

I'm sure. It's like the most famous ending of a TV show. Is that what it was, the spoiler? So in the flightless bird episode, we play scenes of our favorite episodes and so David's episode is that finale and he shows it, but I hadn't seen it yet, so it didn't matter, it didn't spoil anything.

Okay. I just was like, oh, this does seem sad or whatever, but I didn't, it didn't bother me. But then I was editing that episode and I decided to go back and watch it again. Oh. The scene. Okay, and then that viewing. Turns out there's a huge spoiler in that.

Yeah, yeah. I haven't even seen it. I haven't seen the last season. I think I watched the first three seasons. Got it. But I do know what happened. I think most people know what happened. Well, I don't want to spoil it for anyone. Okay, yeah, who's just starting it.

Yeah, so that was sad. Oh, last thing. I watched the bookie on the flight home, Sebastian's show. Yeah. I love it. Great. It's fantastic. Nice.

Yeah, I can't wait to see the next, yeah, he's filming the second season right now. I think so. Yeah. Cool. I think so. Yeah. Cool. I was delighted. Love that.

What time do you think you're gonna go to bed? What's your plan? Well, we have two tomorrow, two guests tomorrow. So yeah, I have a little bit of anxiety that might, I'm so upside down. Because right as we about to, you know, we semi got adjusted there, where like we woke up at 8.30 and it felt kind of normal,

to immediately then wake up at three, which didn't match anything. So now we're waking up at 7 p.m. last night. Yeah. Here in America land. Yeah. So I'm like, fuck, now we're flipping it completely upside down. So I just So I'm like, fuck, now we're flipping it completely upside down.

So I just, I'm hopeful that I, my fantasy, my dream is that I can go to bed at 8 p.m. and sleep till 7 a.m. till I take the kids to school. If I can somehow manage to get 11 hours, I feel like I'll be good. That'll be good. But I'm a little anxious that my clock has adjusted to that other place.

I think you can do it. Okay. I appreciate your optimism. Okay, there's not very many facts, which is good, because we'll keep it short so you can go to bed. But this is for Orna. What a joy to meet Orna. Oh my God, we have been wanting it for so long. We willed it.

She's better in real life, which I was nervous. She's so comfortable in her practice and you get to see such a privileged side of her. Yeah. Right, that only her patients would. So I don't know, but in person, way over delivered for me. Do you wanna know a BTS that you might not know

or maybe I told you? Oh no, yeah, tell me. I almost started crying in the beginning of that episode when we were talking about. The sidewalk? The sidewalk. Because that was also the day, yeah, you found out some bad news that day.

The day before, yeah. The day before, right, right, right, right. Is coming up on another episode. Yeah. Listeners will hear more about that on another episode. Right, so there's a lot happening. I was just like, I was not doing great that day. I was a little like, anything could cause tears.

And then, and- So when you were editing, did you start crying? No, because I'm better now. Yeah. I think I've had the experience of where I was watching myself in parenthood in a scene that I was sad in, and I got sad hearing myself sad.

Like, I mirrored myself. That's interesting. I mean, okay, so when I was editing it back, of course everyone's just being so playful. It's fun. It's totally fun and fine. And of course no one knows that I'm feeling fragile. Right, I had no clue.

Right, and obviously she doesn't. And I didn't feel like I should start with that energy. You would have felt a little unprofessional. Yes, exactly. So, what I really didn't wanna do is cry and then make her feel bad. That she had like contributed to me crying. Yes, that's the guess.

I'm trying to imagine if I came onto any kind of show and one of the hosts started crying right at the beginning because of me. That'd be hard to recover from. I'd feel really guilty. Well, good thing I didn't do it. Yeah, good job. Generally you should express your feelings,

but I'm really glad you didn't. Because that's too much if you make the host cry. I mean, I would have pivoted smartly and made it about only you, right? Like that I was just accepted by you. But she would have known, she had the same opinion as me, so. And it actually, it wasn't the opinion,

I mean, it was the opinion, of course, but it was that I- I don't think you could have soft-pedaled your way out of that. I was the opinion, of course, but it was that I. I don't think you got a soft pedal to your way out of that. If you started crying right after she said something, and you go, no, it's about him. If anyone could have handled it, it would have been her.

Well, exactly. Well, true. That is, I did contemplate. She's unflappable. Like, I mean, she's a therapist. Precession. Exactly. We've done that to other therapists. Yeah, we have. With Wendy. It's gone great. Yeah, I like it. Precession. Exactly. We've done that to other therapists. Yeah, we have. With Wendy. It's gone great.

Yeah, I like it. Me too. I kind of want to launder to get into that a little bit. I know, but I think that's why, because she started it just fun as a guest, not as a therapist, which is correct, right? Yes.

And then, and I think I was expecting a therapist. And then I felt a little combined attack a little bit. And I wasn't in the head space for that. Right, right. It was a big moment. That's BTS. Memorable. I don't think, if you go back and listen,

I don't think you'll hear it. I think I do a good job. Okay, great. And you didn't, to answer the question, you didn't go like, okay, now I'm gonna let this out as you were editing. No. You didn't get taken back to that feeling.

I didn't, but I did feel like, God, they really are ganging up. Mm. So, anywho, that's that. Okay, so you said polyandry, and then you- She corrected me. Well, she kinda laughed, and then you said, oh yeah, polyandry is just when a woman

has more than one husband, and that's right. Right. Yeah. There was only one example of that in anthropology, and I wanna say it was in, the Andes or the Himalayas, it was some really high up, snowy, high elevation place, or that was the system that made the most sense. Cause they needed more men to keep them warm. Well.

In a pile. I guess it's, I can't remember the details of why that environment demanded that arrangement. Sure. But anyways, there was a group, had an ethnography done on them that was. Yeah, well there's a few research about polygamy in the world

and it's mostly confined to a few regions. Only about 2% of the global population lives in polygamous households. And in the vast majority of countries, that share is under 0.5%. So it's most often found in Sub-Saharan Africa. Okay. West and Central Africa, including...

The dudes in the Middle East have a lot of wives. Yeah, they got many, many wives. Burkina Faso, Mali, Nigeria, and these countries' polygamy is legal, at least to some extent. Muslims in Africa are more likely than Christians to live in this type of arrangement. Many of the countries that permit polygamy

have Muslim majorities, and the practice is rare in many of them. Fewer than 1% of Muslim men live with more than one spouse in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran, and Egypt. All countries. What about Saudi Arabia? Polygamy is also legal in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates.

UAE. No, no edits, so I get nervous. But these were not included in the study due to data limitations. Says the Jewish Torah and Christian Old Testament refer to several instances of accepted plural marriages, including by Abraham, Jacob and David. Anywho, okay.

One in five, this is interesting. One in five US adults believe that polygamy is morally acceptable. Mm, one in five. Mm-hmm. Yet only practiced by 0.5. It says this share has almost tripled since the question was first asked in 2003.

But it's still among the least accepted behaviors. Interesting. Very. She mentioned the Bedouin people, and yes, they live in polygamous society with a patriarchal system. Okay. But there was some really specific nomenclature

she hit me with, The actual group on the, because I think I called them a threple. Which was a no no. You did, so did I, that was wrong. And then the word is polycule. You misheard it as poly-cue. Okay, poly-cule. Uh-huh, C-U-L-E.

Oh. Well, P-O-L-Y C-U-L-E. Right. What if I thought that's a poly kill? The poly silent. But yeah, so that's, cause a throuple is real, but that's when everyone's in a relationship. Right, and an exclusive relationship

to those three people. I think. Yeah, the poly kill, they were, Kill. people. I think. Yeah, the Poly-Q, they were. Cuel. Cuel, very cuel. Mm. They were. No edits.

Ha ha, they were free to mess about as much as they wanted in any direction. They had other partners outside of the Poly-Q. That's right. Yeah, guys watch this show. Oh my god. Oh baby. Oh my god. What a season. Yeah. Guys, watch this show. Oh my God. Oh baby. Oh my God. What a season.

Seriously. Okay, Eric Lander, you mentioned, I thought you said Road Institute, but I think you said Broad Institute, which is correct. But I misheard it. But yeah, but spelled weirdly. B-R-O-A-D, I think. Oh, okay, maybe that's not too, silent poly.

Poly silent on that. That's not spelled. Okay, great. Let's see here, attachment theory. Talk about attachment theory for a second. That's fun. Yeah. Well, you tell me what you think your theory,

your attachment is, okay? Oh, are you gonna give me a list? Mm-hmm. Oh, great. Secure attachment. A toddler who is securely attached to his or her parent or other familiar caregiver will explore freely while the caregiver is present, typically engages with strangers and is often visibly freely while the caregiver is present, typically engages

with strangers, and is often visibly upset when the caregiver departs and is generally happy to see the caregiver return. The extent of exploration and of distress are affected, however, by the child's temperamental makeup and by situational factors as well as by attachment status. A child's attachment is largely influenced by their primary caregiver's sensitivity to their needs. Parents who consistently or almost always respond to their child's needs will create securely attached children. Such children are certain that their parents

will be responsive to their needs and communications. Securely attached children are best able to explore when they have the knowledge of a secure base to return to in times of need. Oh God. I'm so stressed out. Normally I would have cut half of this. Okay, I think that was pretty good.

I feel attached. Was that what you're asking? There's secure attachment. There's anxious ambivalent attachment. There's anxious avoidant and dismissive avoidant. Okay, I think I'm gonna go with secure. There's also disorganized and disoriented. Oh.

I think I have anxious. You're anxious. Anxious attachment. Oh, okay. Did your mom work when you were a baby? Yeah. Okay. My mom, I had the luxury of pros and cons. She didn't work until I was three. So I had her attention all day long,

although I was colicky and she wanted to kill me for the first year. She gave you corn syrup. Well, caro syrup for nourishment. Oh, caro syrup. And then an opiate to get me to shut the fuck up. That was adorable. She was in here and just, she remembered the name of it,

but she didn't really ever explore what it was. Right. Remember when we looked it up. It was like, oh, is this an eyedropper full of opium? Oh no, oh my gosh. Also, it's impressive that your height. I often think that I probably was destined to be like six, five or something. Yeah.

So the first- As tall as Max. Oh, shut up. Oh dear you. I'm talking about being ganged up on. Yeah. What were we talking about? Anxious attachment. Oh yeah, yeah.

But I wandered around and I talked to adults and stuff. Right. I explored. Yeah, a child with an anxious, ambivalent pattern of attachment will typically explore little in the strange situation and is often wary of strangers, even when the parent is present.

When the caregiver departs, the child is often highly distressed, showing behavior such as crying or screaming. The child is generally ambivalent when the caregiver returns. Huh, that's interesting. Yeah. Well, that's what Gabor was. He was ambivalent when he was reunited with his mom.

Oh, right. This will sound apocryphal, and I can only tell you what I've been told my whole life. So we lived in the country, and I would play in my sandbox most of the day with my Tonka trucks, and we had a German Shepherd named Dog, which you've heard this.

It was our neighbor's dog, and then we ended up, he slept at our house, he would only go home to eat, and finally they brought the dog dish over. And so, and we always called him Dog, because we didn't know his real name. He'd just be like, Dog's here. Best dog we ever had, German Shepherd. So he would stay out there in the sandbox with me

while I played, and my mom would do chores around the house, and she looked out the window, and I was not in the sandbox. So she went out in the backyard, and I was not in the backyard. Oh my God, dog ate you. And the driveway was very long, like, it had to be an eighth of a mile long.

It was in the country country and we shared a driveway with a couple other people, little dirt driveway. And my mom's like looking all through the backyard and she hears honking, tons of honking. Oh no. And she runs in the front and she just follows all this honking. She runs down the driveway and I am in the middle,

oh, oddly it's actually called Middle Road, we lived off of Middle Road. I am in the center of Middle Road, there's a bunch of traffic backed up in both directions, and Dog is with me, I'm playing with a Tonka truck in the road. No! Yes, and anytime someone tries to get out of their car to help the baby out of the street, Dog goes bananas

and chases them back to their car. And then just goes around in a circle of me. And then my mom comes out there and picks me up. And takes me to. Oh no, that's so scary. Should we be fucking losing your kid in the country? We like lived in the country. And then finding them in the middle of the road.

In the road, your worst nightmare. That is my worst nightmare, yeah. By the way, it like lived in the country. And then finding them in the middle of the road. In the road, your worst nightmare. That is my worst nightmare, yeah. By the way, it must have taken me, I don't know how much she's claiming she looked up to me down the road. That would have taken you an hour. It would have taken me so long to get from the backyard down to this road.

And you probably forgot your truck and had to go back and get it and then walk back over. Maybe dog carried me. Maybe rode him like a horse. Maybe he took me down there. What a good dog though, right? Yeah, sweet dog. We love the dog.

Ding, ding, ding. What? I almost called her Wina. Orna, Orna brought her dog. Oh my God, that's the most important thing. Nico. Were we talking about it in the episode at all? Yes.

That's, I mean, other than Mack, that might be my second favorite dog I've? Yes. That's, I mean, other than Mac, that might be my second favorite dog I've ever met. That's my favorite dog. It was a person. I know, and it was really chill and it smelled good. And smiled a lot. Yeah, I know, and it was so fluffy.

She would just smile up a storm if you pet her. I know, and remember she had an anxious attachment? Yeah, she has. Oh, yes. She has separation anxiety. Yeah, there wasn't a firm attachment somehow. Oh, she was really cute. If I found that dog, I would have a dog. You'd be a dog owner.

Yeah. Now, okay. I think anyone would. I mean, that dog was really something. Yeah, you'd have to really hate dogs not to want that dog, Nico. I didn't know you had it. How many dogs did you have?

Just, well, I had that dog. And then my dad, when I was in about fifth grade, got married for a year or so. And he bought a house and I think he was gonna do the whole thing. Sure. And he bought a Newfoundland. Oh, you like those.

Yeah, because of this dog. Oh. His name was McKeever. And McKeever was the cheapest dog from this litter because, by the way, the stepmom wanted a Newfoundland for whatever reason. Got it. She had some affinity for Newfoundland.

They had picture books in their house in Traverse City of Newfoundland. Anyways, this one was cheapest because what they told us was the mom sat on his tail when he was a puppy, so he didn't have a tail. And he was so fluffy. I would walk him in my dad's neighborhood and all the little kids thought we had a bear.

Everyone in the neighborhood thought we had an actual bear. Oh, he looks so much like a bear. But yeah, the dog was not well taken care of while we were not there on every other weekend. Yeah. So I have a real sad spot in my heart for new fees. Very much McKeever. And then that makes me love new fees.

They're so sweet. Those dogs, yeah. They're really big, aren't they? Oh yeah, Bear, you said. He was 160 pounds. And their job, you know how the St. Bernards would find alpiners and bring them brandy, they had a little thing of brandy around their neck,

and they would lay on them. Do you know this? That's what St. Bernards are, they're avalanche dogs. They would rescue people that were stranded while out in the. Rob, who sent that? Who sent? Oh my God, that was kind of really good.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. I fell for it. Ha ha ha ha ha. Just us monuments. Newfoundlands are the water version of that. Got it. So they would swim out when there were shipwrecks and men would put their arms around those Newfoundlands are the water version of that. Got it. So they would swim out when there were shipwrecks and men would put their arms around those Newfoundlands

and they would swim them all the way to shore. That could be a good dog for me since my swimming is not great. Oh, you'd be free to drown all you want. Wow. Yes. Okay, I'll consider. Although the St. Bernard does have booze around its neck.

I like that. I'm pretty capable of getting my own booze though. Well, it would be nice though if your dog brought you booze. It would be. Yeah. It would be nice. You need booze way more than you need rescuing from drowning. That's a certain- For now, yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Maybe as you age, you'll switch to a new one. Okay. So that was that. Dogs. Nico. Nico, love Nico. Really, really cute dog. I, oh, I did look up, there are multiple theories about why humans have become monogamous.

And one that is interesting is that men, okay, I'm gonna read this. Okay. I'm gonna try to read this. Okay. The brains of infants, humans, were larger than previous generations and required more attention and lactation

from their mothers, resulting in females being less readily available to mate again after giving birth. Males in the group are basically sitting around waiting to mate with the female. It would therefore pay for the man to kill the infant so he can mate with the female. As the fathers would want their offspring to survive,

they would nurture and protect them as necessary by pairing up. I mean. A different man would come in. This is what lions do. When a lion, don't look at the statue. I won't, I'm ready to listen. Okay, when a lion overthrows a pride

and becomes the new alpha, the first thing he does is kill all the kittens in the litter. Yeah. So that all the chicks will go into estrus. And so it is believed that that happened when invaders came into human villages and whatnot, that they would also want to get everyone pregnant as quick as possible. But a dad would never kill his own offspring

to get the mother to go back into. But a dad would never kill his own offspring to get the mother to go back into Esther that defeats the whole purpose. Because then it's still, I know, then you're still killing offspring. Yeah, so I think they're referring to competing males would be incentivized to do that. Maybe.

I don't really believe it anyway. Yeah. There's like a health theory. Okay. Reducing like diseases spreading. Oh, where'd all these come from? Any of these- This is from CNN Health. CNN Health, okay.

Well, in Anthro, we learned it was just an economic system. Right. And so as economies changed, people went to single family dwellings. There's all these mini property ownership, passing of property. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's a combo of so many things.

Because I think health must play some, or maybe not health, but something deeper has to be playing some sort of part in this, because I feel like we would just not care that much. I mean, I guess a lot of people don't care that much. Well, but even in ones that were polygamist, there was a very rigid system in place.

Like a male got access to many other females, but the lower ranking males didn't have families. Yeah. So it wasn't like willy-nilly. It was very controlled, even though it seemingly is, like just go hook up with people. Even when it was polygamy, I don't think it like just go hook up with people. Even when it was polygamy, I don't think it was just go hook up with people.

Yeah, well, I just looked up, is infidelity common in Europe? Denmark, close to 46% of people admit to sleeping with someone else outside of the marriage. Infidelity is relatively common in Europe. Oh, infidelity rates by country 2024, World Population Review. There are several countries in which cheating

is relatively common. Thailand is an outlier, but it is also at the top of the list. More than half of the people in Thailand who are married admit to committing infidelity at least once during the course of their marriage. Over the week. Pfft. Pfft.

It sounded like you said their week. I might have. Oh God. Okay, then infidelity is relatively common in Europe. In some situations, there might be relationships where people are allowed to sleep with other people outside of the marriage in Denmark, close to 46%, when I said.

Germany and Italy are not far behind, where 45% of people who are married in both of these countries admit to committing infidelity. Belgium, Norway, and France also have infidelity rates that are 40% or higher. Interesting. Is the US of A on that list? The US.

I feel like you'd have a hard time getting people to admit to that here. Here, exactly, which is why I think. I think half of people, I think that's still roughly what happens here. Yeah. I just don't know if I would believe that people would admit to it here.

Yeah, this is kind of a tricky chart. Let's see. U.S. World Health and Report, is that what you said it was? It's worldpopulationreview.com. Okay, worldpopulationreview.com. Greenland has the lowest reported infidelity rate. Well, there's nobody there to cheat with.

What's how spouses are most likely to cheat with a friend? Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, yeah. Anywho. Oh, there was one, sorry. Yeah, guys. Shit. There's been a lot.

That's kinda it. All right. Well, Orna wasn't dropping tons of stats on us. No, of course not. No, she was dropping her knowledge. unique, dialed in. God, she's so cool.

She's so cool. God, is she cool? She looked really cool. I know. She didn't give a fuck about approval. No, seemingly not, but also seem fun. I know. I really got a hunch like, oh yeah,

she'd be a fun person to have dinner with. Do you wanna know something since you've been gone? Yeah. I've had a chicken burrito from Arowan every day. Oh, by the way, your skin looks great. Oh my gosh, my skin has pretty much fully peeled. You're completely molted. I've molted.

Yeah, do you feel baby-like? Yeah, parts feel baby-like. Remember it was only some parts of the face. We're gonna be baby-like? I kind of wish we had just done the whole face. Yeah, you went through the torture of it all. Yeah. Why not do the whole thing?

I agree. But I might, now that I like it, I'm nervous I'm gonna get a little addicted to it. Oh, how often can you do it? I'm not so sure. What will the dermis tolerate? I don't know, but I kinda wanna find out. Oh wow. Yeah.

Okay. So I think. You gotta really get our guest schedule ironed out before you commit to these. I know, I know, tell me about it. But maybe I won't care, like, it'll become such an obsession. But you were telling me about what your diet was.

You ate a bunch of what? Oh, Arowan chicken burritos. Oh really? What are those? 30, 40 bucks? They're $20. Oh my God, please. I know.

I was not, I would have probably caught that. Oh yeah. Sorry, I forgot to not ask you anything like that. Okay. You know what else we did? We were all hanging out on this weekend, friends, and I told Eric that, and he said, how much are those smoothies again?

Some of the smoothies there are insanely expensive. Yeah, I don't wanna misrepresent the place, but I do think I had a friend that was telling me he was going there and getting these $36. If you get the add-ons going and stuff. Exactly, so that's what we were testing. Just based on Postmates, maybe if you go there, you could do even more damage.

But we picked the most expensive smoothie, which was like 26.50, I think. Wow, base. Base. And then we did a whole bunch of add-ons and I think we got it to $45. Yeah, yeah, okay, great. Then my claim wasn't clear.

I didn't order it to be clear. I, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just wanted to see. But the chicken burrito's so good. Is it? Yes, and it has a cilantro rice and the perfect amount of cheese. And it is a soft spinach tortilla. Oh. It's so good.

You want one right now, I can throw it. I already had one today. Oh, you already did? Yeah. Have you had two in one day yet? No. Okay. Well, today might be that day. Maybe. All right, I can throw. I already have one today. Oh, you already did? Yeah. Have you had two in one day yet? No. Okay, well today might be that day. Maybe. All right, I love you.

Welcome back. Thank you, great to see you. You too. What's funny is it only feels like five days since you saw me, but it feels like three and a half weeks. You know when you have those trips? Yeah, it feels like I haven't seen you in a long time. Okay, right, but the passport fiasco?

Oh, yeah. That was like two weeks ago for us. Yes, totally. Yeah, so long ago. You crammed in so much. All right. All right, love you. Love you. ["Sweet Home Alone"]