Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Part 10: Monica & Jess Love Each Other with Dax & Kristen

Episode Date: April 15, 2020

In Part 10: Monica and Jess love each other, M and J chat with Kristen and Dax for their final episode. The four discuss what Monica and Jess learned from the experience, how they've grown and the things they can't un-learn after this journey. Monica talks about a newfound relationship to her narrative and Jess has a growing acceptance of addiction. Dax wonders what the big take-aways have been, Kristen praises M and J's vulnerability and the four verbally "write" their relationship manuals. Monica and Jess say farewell to this adventure and hello to whatever's next. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Monica, a.k.a. Miniature Mouse. I love boys, but I don't have one. And in fact, I've never had one. I could probably count on two hands how many dates I've been on in my entire life. And I decided it's time to change that. Hi, I'm Jess, and I love boys too. And in the opposite way of Monica, I can't count on all the hands in America how many people I've had sex with. And yet, I still don't have a boyfriend. And I want one. And I'm Dax, and I love Monica and Jess in so many

ways. They don't have partners. And that is a huge mystery to me because they're both incredibly attractive, so fun, so smart, and have so much to offer. So what we decided to do is examine these unhealthy patterns and bring in experts and outsiders to help critique us, advise us, guide us, pretty much call bullshit on us so that we can find the romantic companion that we're looking for. We started this thinking it was going to be just cute little dating challenges that we would go on and talk about and laugh about. Turns out it is very hard to be vulnerable in real time in public. Yes! I'm so excited! We're so live. We romanticize pathological love.

One to ten. How much do you want love? Go. You can't even get the sentence out. I would just eat around it. It's a little selfish. Why do I want something? And then why have I designed a defense? We must put the chum in the water for the sharks to come, buddy. Monica's like, so apparently I have to join Raya this week.

He likes fucking. You don't even have a kiss, a handhold, anything. Your frontal lobe is just in the way. Push-up bra, low-cut top. That's what you should be doing. You masturbate every night. Rob's too uncomfortable for this. So please enjoy part 10, our final

episode. Monica and Jess love each other with Dax and Kristen. We are supported by Athletic Greens. Yummy. Yummy. We love it. It's an all-in-one daily nutritional beverage for improved health and peak performance. Super easy. You just

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single best thing you can do for your health and success this year. I can't stress this enough. Jump over to athleticgreens.com slash Monica and claim my special offer today. Get a 20 serving pack for free valued at $79 with your first purchase. You can also claim this offer in the UK EU using the same URL. That's athletic like, Jess don't like boys. He loves boys. Monica and Jess, you know they don't like boys. They love boys. Okay, Jessica. Jessica.

Part 10 finale. We did it. We did it. We sure did. Can you believe it? I can't. I really can't. What a huge part of my life this last five months.

Yeah, we started this. When was our first recording? We started it. End of November. Oh, wow. End of November. Yeah. End of November and it is April. Yeah. End of November and

it is April. Yeah. And it has been a journey. I listened back to those first episodes and I was still banging five or six guys a week. And now you're locked in your bedroom. And I can't masturbate. I know. 90 days. I can't wait to hear about that. But I will introduce our guests, our parental unit. Kristen and Dax are here with us today. Hello. Hi, guys. To wrap up this baby. Has the corona thing, do you feel like you had expectations for what it was going to be and then corona interrupted that?

Like, did you feel like you were going to have more sense of closure at the end of 10 challenges or that there'd be some concrete feeling? I think I, at the beginning, thought that like, oh, by the end of this, we're going to have boyfriends or something's going to have massively changed. Pregnant. Exactly. But what I'm learning is just this is such a slow process and working on yourself is a slow process and you can't hope for X, Y, or Z to be a result. You just have to enjoy the slow growth. And we have, like, when you think about the beginning, I was saying the other day that I've been on more dates over this six month period than I have, I think in my whole life. Sure. That's a lot of change. Yeah. That's what we, well, you and I were talking about it a little bit a couple of days ago that maybe you don't have like the emotional component where you feel emotionally like,

well, I don't know if I've changed. But then when you look on paper at your actual actions and your deeds, you go, oh no, I inarguably have changed and I've done a bunch of stuff I never would have done. And you've had moments where like, you notice the hot guy on the street, which is interesting. Like things have happened. And we were talking to our friend,

Anna the other day, who is also dating. And she was looking at a picture of somebody. That had been sent to her. That had been sent to her that had been sent to her and she was making a large judgment about that person why'd he send that i can't believe it wasn't sexual in nature no no it wasn't sexual but she didn't like that he sent it and i looked at it and i was like huh i think at the beginning of this i would have been in her exact same position.

And I would have thought like, why is everyone behaving the way they're behaving? Like just on edge about everything. And I saw it and I was like, he's just being him. And you don't have to take it. But people can't change who they are fundamentally. That was a big takeaway for me is, you know, I went on that virtual date a couple weeks ago. And I think I talked about this a little bit on last week's episode. But I went on that virtual date and he was a serial monogamist.

And we were talking about that. And normally those conversations would have really disrupted my equilibrium because I would have felt like, oh, my God, I got to then act like I've had relationships or avoid this conversation because I don't want to say that I haven't had a relationship, a serious relationship. And I was just like, yeah, you know, what's that like? Because I've never experienced that. So I don't know what it feels like to be in that position. And it didn't feel scary to say. It just felt like, yeah, well, that's my history.

And there's nothing I can do about that. But that was so vulnerable of you to even own it and say, I'm going to say it out loud that I don't know what that's like. And I'm going to ask a question. Yeah, I think it was vulnerable, but it was also just an acceptance of the fact that there's no getting around the fact that I'm me and my history is my history. And whoever I end up with is gonna learn that and is going to have to be okay with it. So I have to be okay with it. Well, it's interesting because it's, it's so much easier to rush to judgment about people because you think that like your lane is the lane of like, well, I wouldn't have sent that picture.

So that makes me feel funny things. Why did he do that? But if you're coming to terms with the fact that you're going to ask someone to accept you as you, you're also becoming the person that's less quick to rush to judgment of like, ew, why'd he set that picture? Because you're saying, wait, I'm asking for this from someone that I'm going to meet. Like, just accept me as me. I have idiosyncrasies. I'm different a little bit and the same in many ways. But it's like because you're asking for it, you're also more willing to give it.

Yeah, and willing to take it on yourself. Like, if you want other people to accept you, you have to accept you. Well, to me, it really reminds me of so many different people who get sober and then they enter the dating world and they have that same anxiety of like, oh, I'm going to go on this date and I have to tell them when they ask for something to drink. Oh, by the way, I don't drink. This is going to be a big issue for this person. And then just the more people they say that to, then you don't really give a fuck.

You're like, yeah, so I don't drink. And that's that. The irony is the more I go on these dates and the more I say to people, you know, I haven't dated anyone. The less that becomes true, the more dates I'm actually going on, the less I have to then say it because it's becoming less and less true. We can't even take a goddamn walk in fucking Los Feliz without you bumping into all your boyfriends. I'm telling you. She went on two dates last week during this. But like at the beginning of the quarantine,

she came over to drop something off when I was staying at her apartment. And then I said, well, I'll walk you back to the house. And we were walking six feet apart. And then we get like 12 feet. And here's a guy she was supposed to go on a date with, but couldn't because of quarantine. And then now she's on another walking date

with a different dude. I was like, look at your messy life. This is hilarious. I've never experienced that juggling. So exciting. Can I say that one, this show turned out even better than I was expecting. And I had high expectations because I have so much confidence in you, Monica and Jess, but it turned out even better. I'm elated with how wonderful it is. Just really well put together, first and foremost, like right from when it begins and then you guys launch into it and you're getting this really nice mix of like these great professionals. I'm really happy that you guys reached out. And again, we're vulnerable and ask for help because there's all these great perspectives, but then it keeps coming back to you too.

So there's this common thread through all of it. It's just all incredible. I'm so impressed with it. And I'm just really proud of both of you. So I wanted to say that. Thank you. Secondly, my curiosity is if you had to pick a single biggest moment throughout this that you feel like you really confronted and now have come to accept

something about yourselves, like a growth moment, like what five months ago, how did you think about yourself? And what was the most resonant thing that came out of this? Because I would just want to add one thing. Listening to you guys and understanding what you're attempting. Of course, it just goes through my sobriety filter, but it's so much easier with sobriety because it's life or death. It's like, take this person's advice. Here's an expert. They've done it. They're telling you to do this.

And if you don't do it, you might die. Whereas this, it's like I listened to Dr. Alex talk to both of you, and I'm like, gosh, he's giving such brilliant advice. But there's not a ton of stakes for you guys to take it. It's not like your life ends if you don't. It's just to get something more out of life. So I just think it's harder what you guys are doing. With all that said, I'm curious what are the things that both individually you think. And then I want to hear what each other thinks that the other one learned.

Oh, guessing games. Reindeer games. Mixed messages. Mixed messages. Mixed messages. Well, first of all, I do feel so grateful for this show because it, like AA, you're held accountable by other people. We are held accountable by all of our listeners. I'm so grateful for that. The giving the phone number challenge,

and it was the day before. And I was like, oh my God, I didn't do it. It felt like I was letting everyone down. Your community? Yes, that I promised that I was going to commit. And so I just had to do that. And it's so good to be held accountable. I will get back to your question. I've heard from a few people that they're like, I want a challenge. Give me a challenge. And I hope that people pair up and they say, okay, for two months, we're going to give each other challenges and we're going to hold each other accountable so we can get what we want or learn something. Did you ever discuss the fact that you actually Marco Polo'd me and said you didn't think you could get it done and you asked maybe we should install a punishment or a consequence

for not accomplishing the challenge and I said absolutely not. I know you were like no you have to do it and I was like well I can't it's the last day and then to do it. And I was like, well, I can't. It's the last day. And then I did it. You did it. Okay. So what personal growth? Is that what you said? Yeah.

Like what is the truth you learned about yourself that maybe you're not, you can't go back now? Well, everyone knows I'm 43 now and I can't go back from that. It's so sexy to be 43. I know. I'm jealous. It is. I wish you could see it as how beautiful it is. There's so many things. So many things I learned from her too, through me, which was so helpful.

With Monica sitting next to me, I almost took some of the advice they were giving her even more than my own. You know, when Esther Perel said to her, it doesn't matter where you are, if you're on a mountaintop or eating coffee or, you know, or in a cavern, or if the guy's hot or if the guy's not hot, if you don't want to be there, it's all a waste of time. Even if you're eating coffee. Yeah. Eating coffee for sure. Eating coffee. I'm still messing up my metaphors. You should publish a book. I know there's about about 100 now. But if your mindset is not there, it doesn't matter who's in front of you. You don't want to be there.

And that goblin telling her all those years, you're safe, you don't need this, go hang out with your friends. You know, thank you, goblin, but I don't need you anymore and I'm going to go do this thing that's uncomfortable was mind-blowing. You know, when Patty even said, you know, Patty was in our most controversial, she definitely was thousands of thousands of comments about her. I'll plead the fifth on a lot of what they said. But when she told me you're a beta Jess, you need to go out with an alpha. As much as I thought I knew that because the three boyfriends I have had were alphas. I thought I was an alpha in the streets and beta in the bed, but I'm both. Sheets, sheets, sheets. What?

You missed a great opportunity to rhyme. That's all part of the proverbs in that. No, I still make mistakes. See, I miss jokes. I'm so bad. So when she told me I'm a beta, you want to be pursued. I pursued everyone that I have never been with. The only relationships I've had

were these guys that I was taking a back seat and that's not wrong. You know, you've said a million times to you, Kristen, in your last five relationships, you were the alpha and they were the beta. I thought I was the alpha because I have a lot of alpha tendencies, but I think in my heart, in my soul, I would prefer to be a beta. And I, like my previous relationships, I've never dated anyone like Dax in my life. And I never thought I would. And my previous relationships, not only was I in the driver's seat, my ex-boyfriends were not even in the passenger seat. They were in the trunk. They were in the trunk of the relationship. They were hanging on to the back of the vehicle. A hundred percent. And I was like, we'll meet you there. And I didn't know why it

wasn't working, but it was because there was this discontent. There was this feeling of turbulence in my body because I wasn't letting anyone else step up and take care of me. And when I started dating Dax, like, you know, we're polar opposites and everything about it is wonderful and everything about it is difficult. But he is, by definition and example, an alpha. And I have realized throughout my how long have we been together? Thirteen years. Almost. Yeah.

Twelve and a half. Oh, twelve. Oh, twelve and a half. Twelve and a half. Almost thirteen. That I am so much more comfortable leaning on an alpha and that I can still have alpha tendencies, but it's just, it's so different.

And I realized like, oh wow, I had been confused this whole time and now I'm finally comfortable and I finally feel safe. I would describe us as co-dominant. Like there is dominant and recessive and then some genes are co-dominant so they can switch back and forth and i don't think that i'm alpha and you're beta per se i think it

switches a lot but i also had been in relationships where i was driving the boat and that's not a great thing for me either we needed to be co-dominators. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't think, I don't know these labels of like, I mean, not to go against what Patty said, but I just think once you box things up, like alpha, beta, and I'm this, and I'm this, you can lose track of yourself because we're all of the things at any given moment. And it's okay to know like in this relationship,

I prefer to be this, or I'm happy to let this person take the lead. Right. Is a different thing than I need someone to take over or I need to be controlled. But I heard what I wanted to hear from Patty and it helped me. Like, Dr. Drew called me bipolar and there's a lot of spaghetti thrown on the wall on this in the show, but I loved everything people said. There's a way of seeing yourself in all of these comments. These people are very good at what they do. Yeah. I think a big takeaway I have is we got a lot of conflicting advice, you know, like one guest would come on and say, don't have sex for a while. Like Harry,

you know, like Harry is don't just having sex to have sex. And then you have Dan who comes on and is like, you have phone sex right now. Yeah. We got some conflicting advice, but I loved that because it really made us experiment with all the different types of things and see what works for us. At the end of the day, I was just thinking, oh, there is no right answer. There is no right answer to this. There's just different avenues and different things you can try and see what feels good in your own body and mind and heart. But other than that, that's all you can do. Harry isn't the perfect right answer for every single person. Patty is not the right answer for every single person. Even Esther

isn't like you just you take the things that work and you leave the things that don't. And it's kind of a beautiful metaphor, I think, for relationships in general, which is you take in the things that are happy and good. And maybe what I learned from Dan is there's a price of admission and you have to let some of those things go. I'm so glad you're saying this because this has been my mantra about life in general forever. And I'm so at peace with receiving solicited or unsolicited advice. I love it about relationships, about how I could be better in business, about parenting, especially because when you get into the parenting world, it's like, don't give advice, do give, I need advice. Don't, you know,

if there's a whole thing, but I am personally have found so much strength in going, I want everything because I'm not beholden to any of it, but I want to know all the information. So tell me that I should be having sex all the time. Tell me that I should not have sex for a while, like all of it. And then you really get to know yourself. You get to see everything and then choose what you want. But you don't you don't say like, oh, I don't need that advice because you might you might even need that advice to confirm that it's not the advice you need. Yeah. One of my biggest takeaways was my demonstrization. Is that a word of the advice you need. Yeah. One of my biggest takeaways was my demonstraison.

Is that a word? Of the word addiction. I hated that word so much. And it was very hard for me to hear it from Dax. But once it comes up over and over with different people and the way they describe the word differently, the word fizzled a bit. And I came to peace with that word a little bit more.

That was probably the biggest lesson. I still am not ready to make an addict or no addict or go to a meeting or this or that. But that was a huge takeaway for me of the word and making it not so scary. Well, even listening to Dr. Alex go through you going back and forth from Sweden at five and not having someone to regulate your emotions with you and just recognizing like, oh, yeah, when you bake a cake with these ingredients, you get this kind of outcome. That's certainly the ingredients I was baked with. I don't feel any real guilt about it. It's like, yeah, yeah, you molest a kid and you have all these traumas and you do this X, Y, and Z, 80% chance you're going to have some addictive qualities so that you can regulate your own emotions. And if anything, you should feel compassion for yourself that no one helped you learn to regulate. Yeah. And when Monica looked at me and laughed and said, I guess me and you have to go to an SLAA meeting, my mind was blown.

There was no way that I ever thought that me and Monica would be that similar. We might not have to go to a meeting or go to a meeting, but it doesn't matter. It's that underlying it, her avoidance and my over-sexualization are so, so similar. And it was just, it was like a, like a light drop, light drop moment, like a light bulb moment. No, good Lord.

Both work. We are supported by Policy Genius. There are things we each look back on and think, gosh, I really got that wrong. You know, like I used to wear so many tank tops under T-shirts, but the tank top would show underneath. But then there was still some stomach showing up. There was a lot going on and it was it was not right. We're always going to get things wrong. That's just the way it goes. But there are also things we can get right on the first try,

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Better get home insurance right. We are supported by Best Fiends. Best Fiends. We love Best Fiends. We've been playing it a lot lately because we've been home and need a break from the monotony of what's been going on.

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she basically was saying, you are also avoiding. I'm avoiding, but you are too. Even though when we put it in these separate cams, like, oh, Jess just runs at it and he's hypersexual and he's this and that. Really, you're avoiding too. You're avoiding intimacy in the exact same way that I'm avoiding intimacy. We both are. It can look so different different but it's the exact same thing one small thing that I can't unlearn at this point is like he said it so it was so in passing it was just a small thing that Dan said he basically said like you're not gonna be attractive to everybody he was just talking in general and he was just yeah, you're for some people and you're not for some people. And then he moved on. And I was like, huh, that goes against every bone

in my body because I want to be everyone's number one. I want to be beautiful to everyone. I want to be perfect to everyone. And I even manipulate myself subconsciously to fit whoever's in front of me to become that for them. And I was like, oh, yeah, I guess I'm just not going to be that for some people. And that's OK. Your vulnerability talking about your relationship with Kristen and feeling replaceable was amazing. amazing. And, you know, I couldn't help but think, do you ever think subconsciously your relationship with Dax and Kristen is making you not want to go out and leave this really, really comfortable nest? Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't know if it's them specifically. It's just that my life feels full and happy and fun and good.

And yeah, like I was on the phone with my best friend who lives far away and is by herself right now during this COVID. And she had just gone through a really, really intense breakup before she moved in January and it was really intense and she was in love with him and they broke up because she got a job in a different country and she's been dating since she got there and I've been asking like how's it going how's it going she's like going on a lot of dates and having sex and having fun but she's like yeah i mean it's fine it's fun i'm but i'm still hung up on let's call him steve ronda and we've used so many names and then i spoke to her yesterday and she was like you know this whole thing has really made me realize I'm, I'm exhausted and I'm done holding a space for him. And I want, I want someone. I think it's so hard to say that it feels pathetic. I've avoided saying that my

whole life. I've always said like, I want someone who makes me better. I want someone who challenges me. I don't want just someone there. And I still believe that because I get annoyed with people easily. So I don't think I could have just a person around, but it's really powerful to say, I want someone and I want to share this experience with a buddy and it can't be that person. It can't be Steve. So I have to remove that person from the equation so I can open up my life. And in that way, I relate to her and that I do. I have so much going on.

That's great. It prohibits me from having to sit and think, do I want someone? Right. Well, on that topic, I would play this game a lot on sets where I try to get people their opinion on this. Now, I'm of the opinion and a lot of people aren't, but I'm of the opinion that if you put me on a deserted island with anybody, I would love them. I don't care.

a deserted island with anybody, I would love them. I don't care. If you're on an island with nobody, but this person, you would come to rely on the person. You'd come to have jokes with the person. You'd come to see the beauty of that person when not competing with everyone else. And I just think that humans can love each other. I think we all get like option fatigue. It's like going to the grocery store is something better. And I just think that like, and we've talked about it on the other show and here a bit, but like Kristen and I was not what my previous two things were, where I wasn't thunderstruck. It was different priorities at a different age. And then all that other stuff that I was nervous wasn't there presented itself.

I think a lot of people are really stuck in the quagmire of, is this the right person? Decision fatigue is very, very real. As someone who suffers from anxiety, decision fatigue is so huge. And then you get to a point where you can't decide. And when my anxiety is super high, it will be a small decision. Like I cannot actually decide what to make for dinner. I can see all the ingredients. I know the people in this household. I know their dietary restrictions. I cannot choose. And that's all decision fatigue and anxiety. And I think that does definitely translate to people because I think we underestimate how much companionship feeds our

soul. Like, you know, we need water, air, food, but companionship is one of them. And this is not to speak to the enigmas that are like, I just want to be by myself. That's also fine. But for the vast majority of us, companionship is really, really important. And you can find it with almost anyone if you choose to invest in them. I mean, I agree, but I agree and I disagree. And I have a personal problem in general with this idea that everyone's blanketly one thing. Like I feel that some relationships are deeper and I mean, this just goes into my feeling replaceable right theory it's like i don't like that anyone could come in and be your best friend or be your wife or be you know like i feel that certain relationships should be and are deeper but they're deeper because you make the choice to invest in someone.

They're deeper because both people have made the choice. Like we, Dax and I have made the choice to love each other through a lot of bullshit, you know, of things that we dislike about one another. But it's not that I could replace him with anyone. It's that I've made a personal commitment and I have enough integrity to stick to that commitment that we're going to work this out. to be Monica's perfect friend. You guys through the years have been committed to one another as friends. And then the result of that is all this special stuff that emanates from that. You know, that you guys have put the time in and you've made the commitment to each other.

And all that specialness is really the benefit of the decision, you know? Yeah. Which is a huge, another lesson I learned is why are we putting confinements on these relationships? Why does this have to be called a date? Why does this have to be called friends with benefits? Why does this have to be called out of your league? What is it?

You know, I've learned all of these things that I had these compartments for everyone. And it came out that I had this friends with benefits guy for four years. We just had sex and never dated. And now I'm talking to him and we're having, you know, conversations about life. And I was like, oh, that was a four year relationship. But because we were friends with benefits, it didn't mean anything. That was a relationship. This confinement of these boxes we want to put on things and what they mean is a huge issue and great to learn. Part of it is repetition. In a podcast format like this, when you're talking to new people each time, you start to realize what your narrative is almost verbatim. And it's annoying.

You say the same story almost verbatim every time to each new person. And after a while, it's like, oh, my God. Like you're even eye rolling it yourself starting to say it. Like, okay, yeah, I grew up in Georgia and I didn't – and no one liked me. Oh, my God. I lost my virginity at 30. Maybe that's the trick. Yeah, like we're able to hear your own story in a way that normally you can't?

A thousand percent. Yes, and it took time. The first time, it's like, we're talking about it, and it feels like a big reveal. Like, okay, so this boy didn't like that my parents worked at Dairy Queen. Oh, my God, that's so scary to say. It's so intense. And then after the fourth time, you're pulling your hair out, trying to get through the narrative to get to the advice. But you start to realize it starts to fade.

The narrative starts to fade the more you say it. It just starts the power lessons. Maybe you guys invented a new form of therapy. And I'm being very serious about this. Like maybe you invented a new form of therapy, which is say your narrative out loud to someone, to the mirror, whatever, and then say it again and then say it again and say it until you want to puke. Until you get sick of it. Until you get so sick of it that you're like, I cannot have, this cannot be my narrative anymore.

The narrative is us explaining why we're unique to somebody and why this, the steps we're taking in our actions have happened because we were the victim of this unique circumstance. And then at a certain point you just go like, Oh, whatever. Yeah. Just do the shit. And I'm sure, I mean, it's like, I know Jess is starting to talk and I'm like, I know like, okay, next five minutes is this. And same for me. You just start to.

The next five minutes is this. But it's, and by the way, we have it on our show too oh yeah it's the same thing where it's like oh i'll start complaining about my dad and i'm like get over it already the guy gave you lots of hugs and it could have been worse and i do think there's a trick in that it being a different person you're talking to because they are hearing it for the first time it's important for you to say it because it is it's why you're there but just on a personal insides note it just starts to feel like oh this is so silly and you can go i just don't want that anymore yeah i mean sometimes dax and i we talk about when we talk to people you can tell some people are in love with their story. Oh, yeah. And for me, when you're on the outside, and you can pick up on the fact that someone's in

love with their story, it's gross. Yeah, it feels real indulgent. It does. It's unattractive. Yeah, for me, anyway, when I'm privy to somebody else who's in love with their story. And so it has been a good magnifying glass on our own stories and how we're sort of in love with our own and how we can't be. It doesn't take away that we've all been through stuff. It doesn't mean those things aren't relevant to the way we behave and all of that. But to feel like this is me because of X, Y, and Z from my past. You just gave it a lot less power. Yeah.

You guys, because of this, it took all the power away from those super hard things to say. Like I, the Dairy Queen incident, or like, oh, that's so, it doesn't have any fizz anymore. It doesn't have any lightning anymore. I'll add the real danger of it too, is that when you tell people that story, you're presenting a theory, and then you've got to confirm that it's correct.

So it's like you're stuck in a loop that you're destined to just confirm because if you don't confirm it, then that story you keep telling everyone has no relevance. That's true. But it's becoming uncorrect for you guys because you're getting outside your comfort zone. And the girl who had the Dairy Queen incident wouldn't give her phone number to people and wouldn't or sex sex oh my god I know guys are we gonna talk about the sexting what was the last sign off because he sprayed on his camera and sent you a picture oh do you still have that no No. Is it like, I'm cuddling you now? No.

Do you want a cigarette? That was exactly what you would think. I'm cuddling you now. I'm reading you a story. Oh, what a bone pill on a sex. No, no, no. This was after Netflix right now. I was just curious, the wind down of like when you're there at those peak exchanges.

KB really wants it to be i'm gonna make you some sandwiches well i i want to know if the wind down is similar to the actual physical interaction when it winds down or when it's on i think you should sex a stranger and see yeah and see where it because it sounds like you're gonna take it to an interesting level why don't you sex each other? You can still do that. Esther Perel would tell you guys to sex each other. Also, Esther Perel would say have a separate email just about sexting back and forth. Nothing about planning.

Nothing about kids. Nothing about scheduling. Nothing about times. We don't email about any of that stuff anyway. way like the thing I heard coming up a lot with you Monica that I was curious if you accept or believe in is it's what I would hope for you is just like the evaluation is that something you're considering doing less of evaluating whether this is a sustainable interaction because to me yeah you can do things that don't lead to anything and it just doesn't fucking matter. I have.

It has made me consider that I have to give people longer or more of a chance or just say yes. Just say yes to the date as opposed to thinking, do I want to go on a date with that person? Do I want to talk to them? Like, just do it and have that hour, hour and a half and see if that hour and hour and a half was pleasurable. I mean, that's another thing we learned is like, was that moment fun? And if that moment was fun, maybe you can have another moment. And if that moment's fun, maybe you can have another moment. This idea of like looking to the end of the line, like, is this going to be my husband?

Yes, I've definitely internalized that and definitely thought like, that's not working. That's not going to work. Have you owned your wanting? Like, like taking it from fantasy to physical of like, I'm not going to put a ring on anything, but I see someone, I want that you can have a perfectly consensual interaction and experience with someone. And have you like, have you found yourself looking at anybody, whether it's a picture of someone you see or someone on the street or, you know, it's hard. Would you want to have sex with the guy you phone sexted? Yeah. And yes, I think, yes. I mean, like there's been moments where I've, there are people on the street. I've noticed, I've noticed in a way that I haven't, I'm not used to noticing. And I think

that came from your challenge you gave, which was giving the phone number because I had to turn on Didn't it start as give your undies to somebody? It landed first, first volley. No, it wasn't give your undies to someone it was leave your undies somewhere just to feel like you did something undercover sexually like leave your undie like red undies hanging out of a trash can like in a bar or something you know what's funny though i was so appalled by that i was so appalled and then when I was on my date where I was by myself wearing my sexy outfit the best at the bar I went to the bathroom to pee and I was like should I like that that thought entered my brain as something I could do because you put on this because weirdly I think that sexy outfit

really did something for you because it allowed you to own your wanting a little bit and like let's go patty i could give someone a treat they could find my cute little undies in this trash can and just be like what vixen left these i know it was a co-ed bathroom it was it wasn't a co-ed it was a oh it wasn't oh god co-ed would be both a women. Oh, my bad. It was a women, so I did say what's the point of it. Oh, you'd have to toss him in the men's, yeah. Yeah, and I was too afraid to do that.

Because what if I open the door and there is a man in there? You throw him in his face. Yeah. You could knock. It could have been Allison Janney's husband because they were there at that bar and everyone made a big to-do about it. Anyway, so yes, I think it's turned on a switch of my eyes are more open and it happened for giving my phone number because I had to find a person. And I had no other option but to start looking like, who could it be? And I think that

has lingered a bit so that's good yeah like remember we were on that we had a shoot we did a shoot for hello bello and there was a guy on that shoot who was not so not ugly ps. He gave PQs. Pussy quivers. And I really thought, I was like, would I have noticed it before? I don't know. He was so attractive that I probably would have. But I was like aware of him kind of a lot during the day. I'm like, I wonder where he is. And is he going to come by?

It is fun. Then he left. I didn't see him. And then I did look up. You were also his boss, which was a little tricky. I was his boss that day. And then I looked up his phone number on the call sheet. You didn't tell me that. I looked him up on Instagram and then I looked up his phone number on the call sheet.

And I thought, should I text him? But Jess said no. So I did. Yeah. Hi, I'm your director from the other day. Oh, texting. No, you've got to DM someone. Don't text someone.

How'd you get my number? No, you've got to DM them. Well, she's the director. She'd have the call sheet. It's a little dicey because if a male director texts a gal from the call sheet, that would be a little rough. I know. I agree. But I'm just a miniature mouse.

Yeah. I want you to, but it is interesting. It's not. And it was, to be honest, it's a little fantasy. But when does fantasy turn into reality? That could have turned into a reality if I made it. But it's a fantasy if I only, if I'm thinking about him on my own and I'm looking at his Instagram and, but it turns into reality if I text him.

Right. Or if I reach out. You could throw something into his DMs and just be like, hey, stumbled onto your Instagram. We worked on the Hello Bello shoot together. I was your boss. Do you want more employment? I do. I do.

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the experience I had when the nice people at day has sent me their new and improved plant-based frozen pizza. It is so good. I really was not prepared for it because I was kind of like, okay, meatless, vegan. It'll probably be fine, but it was so good. The crust is amazing. The cheese is good. Yes. I like the meatless supreme pizza. We had that one the other day with the girls and everyone. We just like devoured it. What do you like? The vegetable one. Oh, yum. So no dairy, no meat, no soy, no gluten. Frozen, super easy to make. It's no wonder that day is the number one plant based pizza.

And guess who loves plant based pizzas? You last time day offered up some free pizzas to our lovely fans. You jumped on it, grabbing all those pizzas almost instantly. Well, good news are doing it again. Just visit day of foods dot com slash Monica for a free pizza coupon while supplies last. That's d-a-i-y-a foods.com slash monica. And remember the guy from, there was, we also all together had an incident at a little restaurant where we were all eating together and this guy came up and he was-

Can we say his name? I forget what it was. Drew. This guy named Drew came up and- That was his name? Yeah. At Fred 62? Yeah.

Yeah. He was so cute. He was so- 6'2", dark. Stunning. We failed you. We failed you. Because he came up and said, I'm

such a fan of the podcast, I just have to tell you guys. And he was very nervous and seemed so sweet and was being so vulnerable and was like, I don't do this, but I just, it's really influenced my life. I'm really happy to meet you. And we all,

our jaws were on the table because of his face, the way that it was shaped. I felt a collective soul hover. And we all, our jaws were on the table because of his face and the way that it was shaped. I've never felt a collective, like soul hover. And we were all just not listening to him, just looking at him. And then you guys shook his hand and then he walked away.

And then I think all three of us were like, God damn it. Why didn't we say, Drew, are you single? Yes. And you told me to run after him. Yes, I said, go, go, go see if he's still here. If he's single because we dropped the ball, you told me to run after him. Yes, I said go, go, go. See if he's still here.

If he's single because we dropped the ball. We're supposed to be wingmen. If that dude's single, there's some other thing going on. Don't say that. We're single. Anybody could be single. Anybody could be single. That's literally the opposite of why we're doing this show.

He could be a widow. You don't know? Guys, just because you're not in a relationship doesn't mean you're not hot or attractive or worthy of other people. Of course not. I'm saying a dude as gorgeous as that in L.A., if he's single, he's choosing to be single. So all I hear is that we are that. You're saying he has options. He could say—

He has all the options. Right, but that doesn't mean he's taking any of them. He could have great sex with beautiful women all the time and be like, no, that was great sex. But nothing. He's obviously likes a quality podcast. Maybe he would like a quality female. And maybe he would most definitely want to date Monica. That is not.

I was not talking about Jess or Monica when I just said that guy's got, he's got all the options. I take it back. I regret it. I apologize. By the way, what I said is if, if he's single, he's got other things going on. And guess what? Both of you have other things going on. You're both hot and available. And when I look at you and I go, you're single, but you don't want to be, there's something else going on because you guys have all the options. That's true. I'm saying the exact same thing about him that I say about you're single, but you don't want to be, there's something else going on because you guys have all the options. That's true. I'm saying the exact same thing about him that I say about you two. You know what I find really interesting is that you two are, you're talking about all

of this vulnerable stuff to literally millions of people. You're not dating anyone. You're essentially dating millions of people. You're not dating anyone. You're essentially dating millions of people. You're in a relationship with the people who are listening to this podcast because you're practicing honesty, vulnerability, talking about your narrative, being sickened by your narrative, by your narrative, evolving, changing, taking in new advice. That is what a relationship is. The subject is that you're struggling to do it with one person. But the irony is you're actually doing it with millions of people. You're having an open, honest relationship with this entire community right now. And I just feel that deserves some acknowledgement because that is far, far harder than doing it with one person sitting next to them on the couch.

You guys have accomplished so much. And now I hope that it seems like a small task to have to accomplish this with just one. Yeah. Yeah. That's very sweet. Thank you. There's nothing more universal than love, sex, and relationships. And I knew that going in, but I had no idea of the impact that you can affect black, white, 90, 80, gay, straight. We have 90-year-old listeners? Probably. And 80-year-old listeners. And 80. Big difference. Big difference. 90 and 80. They're not hearing a ton of it, but they're getting some of it and what they hear they like.

But it's love, sex, and relationships, but it's not love, sex, and relationships. It's personal exploration. And that is universal. Fun to learn about yourself. Yeah. It can be a sludge. It can be painful, but it's good. Dax, you and I have had some really honest discussions and they are hard pill to swallow. We can, you and I are by my, what I believe that you and I have not had much success when

we talk about relationships. Or addiction. Or addiction. The root of all this is that Dax thinks you have some addiction. Yes. And after 10 episodes where we're in and out of talking about addiction and Dr. Alex basically said we both have some addiction. Do you think you do? I think I do.

I will say that. I believe her. I always have thought that about myself. But my issue has always been that first step, that my life is not unmanageable. And I see a lot of addiction, and I've learned more and more about my addiction throughout the show, yes. And so, yeah, I'm already so tempted to jump in on that. I want to go in an AA way. What is unmanageable?

My life. What is your definition of unmanageable? My life. What is your definition of unmanageable? Oh, my definition is never missing rent, never missing work, always paying your bills, not having parking tickets, showing up on time, never being late, having good relationships, being fun in bed, meeting new people, being present, a good listener, amiable, likable, not a narcissist. Yeah. So there are people, I'm in a meeting with several of them that ran fortune 500 companies. What go ahead. You, you've, you can say this about anything you can say, you know, you've said this too many times. I don't, you you're saying what you told me not to

do. Don't compare yourself to anyone, Jess. No, no. What I'm saying is you can design a definition of manageability to be anything you want. It's a very broad word. I like my manageability. That's great. I'm just saying there are people who are running the biggest companies in the world. I don't think success and money. I don't think success. No, no. You're saying I didn't miss my rent. I didn't get parking tickets. I didn't. These were all like physical things that many people are juggling. Now, do they have total control of being present? Did they have a choice in whether they're doing something? The absence of choice could be seen as not manageable. Yeah. I hear what you're

saying. You know, I said, I don't want this to be about addiction. It should be about us, but you're right. I mean, it's just about us. It's about us growing and learning. Yeah. At one point you said, I'm just nervous. This is turning into like more of a therapy thing. And I was like, that is what it is. Relationships are just the output of all the stuff that's going on with you adds up to what you then put out to other people. Yeah.

So it's important to look inward on those things. Well, that's our own personal psychology where we're at with different addictions, struggles, hurdles. to other people. So it's important to look inward on that. Our own personal psychology, where we're at with different addictions, struggles, hurdles manifest itself in who we like, why we like them, why we feel validated by those people. Like you can't divorce out any of these things is all I'm saying.

It's like every time you started talking, those people without Monica, without them even knowing much about you, one of the first things they say is like being attracted to people that are unavailable. I say that too. You do say that, but I heard. Full ownership of that. I know you do.

But what I was saying was neat is that some people got to that before you even got to tell them that. Like that given who you are and what they knew about you, they would be able to predict that you're probably attracted to people that are totally not available. Yeah. And so when you recognize, Oh, I'm predictable too,

which is a kind of humbling. Who do we have on? And I was like, I think it was Dr. Drew. I was like, Oh my God, we're just all so predictable.

It's almost embarrassing. I agree. I experience embarrassment when I recognize that I am as cliche as any other person. And then I just do X, Y, and Z as anyone on the outside would be able to predict. Any one of those experts you had would be able to predict most of the stuff I do. I find embarrassing. I think I have so much autonomy and I'm so smart that I think about what I choose and that I'm ahead of it

and I'm making hard decisions. I'm just making the decisions you'd expect me to make. Exactly. I know. It's so true. But a lot's happened. I mean, when we started this, I just lost his dad.

I developed epilepsy i mean we have really really gone on a journey i'm so grateful to you yeah i'm grateful for being on the ride with me how do you think i handled this opportunity did you do a good job yes you did a good job thanks monica you need to hear that you did a good job you and i are very similar so chris and i just discovered the other day i'm like if i work for six hours like i leave the house and i when i walk in the door i go thanks so much for watching the kids while i was gone like thanks for allowing me to go to work she doesn't care she's like yeah i don't you don't need to thank me for that and for watching my own kid the love language thing is embarrassingly true like I want

verbal validation a lot I want to be told I'm a good boy and I did a good job I want to be seen for what I anything I do I want to be recognized for and Kristen doesn't need me to say anything she needs me to do some acts of kindness, offer to make her tea. And it's so crazy to me because I don't want anyone to make me tea because I want to be self-sufficient. I think that's what's appealing about me. So, in fact, her love language makes me feel unattractive, and she doesn't need my love language. Well, yeah.

That's dangerous. And also I find we have polar opposite love languages because your love language actually makes me feel patronized. Like when you come home and, and say, thanks for watching the kids. I'm like, I don't need anyone to thank me for watching my children. That to me, it feels almost passive aggressive or something, but that's not what I'm thanking you for. I'm thanking you for allowing me to go do something I wanted to do that. I can't do guilt free unless I know you're watching, but I can't get there immediately. Cause it's not my love language. The same way you can't get

there. The same way like we tell the story all the time, but like in the beginning of our relationship, when I'd say, would you give me a cup of water? And you were like, who does this bitch think she is? But I was like, but you were already getting up and I want, I want to get you a cup of water when I'm up. And isn't that what we've, isn't that what we've agreed to? Like, I'm not going to offer that to a stranger on the street, but I offer it to you because we decided to put a ring on it. Isn't that a perk we get, but we just have opposite love languages. Well, our daughters seem to be taking after you because they both sit on the couch all day long and say, can someone get me water? That's true. But they also take after you because when I give one of them a compliment, the other one says, it makes me feel terrible when you give her a compliment.

It makes me feel really left out. And I'm like, well, then do something that earns a compliment. Earn a compliment. But I think that's one of the things that we struggle with is that we could both do better. I know I could do way better at noticing times when I'm happy with you. I don't have to be exhilarated or thrilled, but just little things you do and verbalizing them and saying, thanks so much for doing that. And I've told Monica like four or five times how impressed I am with her that she went and did her own show and it turned out so fantastic.

She's like, oh, okay. But I need a ton of out. I'm not, I, I know what you're saying, but it's not the same as yours. I don't need somebody to say it's not, I don't need anyone to say your podcast is good or you did a good job on the podcast. I need someone to say, oh my God, you worked so hard on that podcast and I see it. Got it. That's the difference. Especially this podcast is irrelevant to sort of what I'm talking about. But for ours, I need to know that, you know, that I'm doing so much work for us. Yeah. Not for me.

And I need a lot of credit. I need a ton of credit for that. But it's not. Did I do a good job on this podcast? Let's write a little bit of our manual right now. Yeah. Adam Grant, who we've had on Armchair, says we should be writing manuals for each other because nobody just knows what other people need. And his was in a workplace environment. But yeah, in life,

we should be writing manuals. So I say that. And I also say what doesn't work for me is when I feel that there are ultimatums on the table. That will never get a positive result if there is an ultimatum on the table. I would agree that my negative is an ultimatum. Like ultimatums or threats make me feel unsafe. But what makes me feel safe and loved is my highest value in life is the team, like the community. Team is maybe the wrong word, but the community, our tribe, like making sure the tribe is working

like a well-oiled machine and the exchange of efforts and not necessarily words, not thank yous. But yeah, like as silly as if we both need a coffee or a tea in the morning and I make your coffee and you make my tea and we exchange it. That to me is one of the most loving things, even though neither of us actually went out of our way because you would have had to make your own coffee and I would have had to make my own tea. And I don't need it to be sacrificial, but I do like, oh, I'll go in and do this for someone. And then I see they've done something for me.

Physical actions of helpfulness is how I feel most loved. This is hard. I don't know. This is difficult. The first thing that popped in my mind was I feel loved and validated. This is funny that when I feel unique unique that i have something to offer that no one else can here's this amazing parallel between you two and it stems from well again we i think we said it on the first episode yeah so uh monica's proclivities tend to be like she

can provide a service for people that no one else could provide and that makes her indispensable and she won't be excluded and i think because you weren't included in so many other circles in life you weren't straight you weren't this and that you have red hair it's a very similar thing which is like i need something that's indispensable What makes me feel scared and lonely is abandonment, not calling me, not reaching out. Yeah. Abandonment is at the root of so much of all of us. Dad? Yeah, mine is kind of verbal praise, verbal… Words of affirmation. Words of affirmation. Thank you.

Yeah. Words of affirmation. It's, it's an, it's annoying to me that I can recognize I grew up in a house where self-sufficiency was the number one way you showed you loved somebody so that you weren't a drag on somebody. Cause we all had so much on our plate and that that was an act of love, was not requiring anything from anybody. And to know that and for that not to remove the emotional weight of it is frustrating. To recognize that that's what's going on and I'm smart enough to know that, yet generally an act of kindness to me makes me feel like I'm a drag on you and I'm showing you I don't love you. And then conversely, you needing me to do something for you, I receive as you don't love me, that you would value your own needs above mine. And that the fact that I still

interpret them that way, even with full knowledge of the history and how flawed it is, is very frustrating. Yeah. And I wish that I could, you know, take a pill to resolve that. But it is physically and emotionally painful when it happens. But for a second, right? And then now that you have the tools, you can talk yourself down. Yes. And I think through practice, it gets easier.

And remember that you're not in that household with any of those people anymore. You're in a completely new scenario where there are new components and new communicators and we have a different way that works for us. Oh, yeah. And I'm in the unique position where I'm also around my sister a ton still. And she has the same programming I do. And to watch us fight over who would make the other person a sandwich is clearly insane. But there we are and we're doing it. And yeah, that's just a little bit demoralizing that you can't just unplug from the history. that you can't just unplug from the history? I mean, I think that's a good lesson because I think a lot of people, and we talked about this with Dr. Alex a little bit, a lot of people feel like, well, I tried that and it doesn't work.

Right, right. And that's not the, our instincts are our instincts. They are 30, in Jess's case, 43 years old. And we're kidding ourselves if we think those are going to go away they're not if you get tools when you have the instinct you can say oh that's happening because of this and it takes a minute it takes a minute to say oh that's happening because of this okay that's annoying okay I'm annoyed but that's why it's happening. And then you can move forward. But the thing is still there.

That's just we are what she said, nothing but basically a pile of old habits. And so the acknowledgement is the big win. Yeah. Or it is something as simple as we walked to the new house yesterday and Kristen said, how did this this lot get ruined on the gate? I said, I wonder how that broke. How do you think it broke? And I heard you're not handling the realm of our life. You're supposed to be handling.

And truly what my intention was is that he knows a lot about metal and tools. And this is a big metal broken latch. And I wonder how it broke. Do you have any insights? A, so we can know because I own the property as well. Yeah. It's my domain as well. But also because you like tools and metal and.

Well, what was sweet is you were just trying to engage something that I would like so I was embarrassed by my reaction to the question but then I was proud that the rest of the walk home I thought not how can I prevent Kristen from saying stuff like that I thought I gotta remember it's that painful when I say this cupboard's a fucking mess. Yeah. But, but I can now having had that small interaction with you and then you talked it out with me and said, sorry, I'm hearing that you think I'm not doing a good job. And I was like, whoa, oh, oh, that's so not my intention. I can now know that next time when you open the medicine cabinet and the kids Tylenol falls out, you're not saying you need to do more work. You're just observing something.

And what's something that maybe scares you? What's something in your manual that we shouldn't do? So my most dangerous mental place is I'm not seen. No one cares about me or values me. And I don't need anyone. And that's not like you guys both brought up ultimatums I'm not threatening in those situations I am sincerely saying this hurts so much I'd rather be by myself well I guess it's probably goes back to what Jess was saying which is like I've determined what's appealing about me and if someone doesn't want

to enjoy those aspects of me, then I don't know what the point of it is. I'm going to have a good time. Let's have some conversations. Let's unpack things. Let's have provocative opinions and theories. And that's what I think my value proposition is. So if someone's not using any of what I think my value proposition is,

I'm not being seen for what I think is valuable about me. I mean, ultimately it's my work to do. It's to, instead of waiting until I'm like, I'm going to go live by myself, I need to have the courage to point out the little bumps along the way that pile up into a mountain. Right. There are definitely things that I can do that would make this marriage better by hearing this. And then I also want to add as a caveat, you're raising children and being a good partner in whatever the business is. And I know you don't, you don't have those as your like top couple that you want to be valued. But as just as we're talking in love languages, like when I see you with the kids,

like there's never been a stronger desire I have for you. Like what Esther talks about, like when you see your partner do X, you feel desire. And like when you're taking care of the kids and handling them and playing with them, it's like a peak desire for me. Aphrodisia.

Big time, Big time. We really went off. Of course. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard and rewarding. And this has been such a fun journey. Thank you, everyone who's gone on it with us. I've had a blast and we showed up and I think we should be proud of ourselves. Oh, also we want to just do a very big public thank you to Bob Murbach for our unbelievable theme song. We love it, Bob. A lot of people were complaining at how much of an earworm it is. And that's the best compliment. Yes. we got some covers.

Ooh, yeah, we really did. I love you, Bob. You're the reason. You're the reason for all of it. I think the only disappointment is that you guys aren't fucking at the end of this. I think that's what everyone was kind of hoping would somehow happen. That's true.

And I feel very grateful to you and to you and to you. Thanks for joining us. This journey was about loving others. And really, we just learned to love ourselves more. And that's the big takeaway. We love you guys. I love you so much. Thank you so much. don't like boys Monica loves boys Jess don't like Jess don't like boys He loves

boys Monica and Jess You know they don't like boys They love boys