Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Part 4: Monica & Jess Love Therapy with Harry the Therapist

Episode Date: March 4, 2020

In Part 4: Monica and Jess Love Therapy with Harry the Therapist, M and J invite Harry - Kristen and Dax's couples therapist, to the attic. Harry specializes in both personal and couples therapy and Kristen and Dax have credited Harry for giving them the tools for relationship longevity. But today he brings his expertise to Monica and Jess's love lives. Harry wonders if Monica has any unresolved parental issues and he encourages Jess to listen to his small inner voice. He provides a few Harry rules for approaching a forever relationship and reminds M and J that we are all a work in progress. Monica and Jess talk about their challenges from last week and the realization that these challenges have nothing to do with the other person - it’s all about personal growth. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Monica, aka Miniature Mouse. I love boys. But I don't have one. And in fact, I've never had one. I could probably count on two hands how many dates I've been on in my entire life. And I decided it's time to change that. Hi, I'm Jess, and I love boys too. And in the opposite way of Monica, I can't count on all the hands in America how many people I've had sex with. And yet, I

still don't have a boyfriend. And I want one. And I'm Dax, and I love Monica and Jess in so many ways. They don't have partners. And that is a huge mystery to me because they're both incredibly attractive, so fun, so smart, and have so much to offer. So what we decided to do is examine these unhealthy patterns and bring in experts and outsiders to help critique us, advise us, guide us, pretty much call bullshit on us so that we can find the romantic companion that we're looking for. We started this thinking it was going to be just cute little dating challenges that we would go on and talk about and laugh about. Turns out it is very hard to be vulnerable in real time in public. Yes! I'm so excited! You're so lying.

We romanticize pathological love. One to ten. How much do you want love? Go. You can't even get the sentence out. I would just eat around it. It's a little selfish. Why do I want something and then Go. You can't even get the sentence out. I would just eat around it. It's a little selfish. Why do I want something? And then why have I designed a defense? We must put the chum in the water for the sharks to come, buddy.

Monica's like, so apparently I have to join Raya this week. He likes fucking. You don't even have a kiss, a handheld, anything. Your frontal lobe is just in the way. Push-up bra, low-cut top. That's what you should be doing. I masturbate every night. Rob's too uncomfortable for this.

Please enjoy part four, Monica and Jess Love Therapy, with Harry the Therapist. Monica don't like, Monica don't like boys. Monica loves boys. Jess don't like, Jess don't like boys. He loves boys. Monica and Jess, you know they don't like boys. They love boys. Okay, so hi. Welcome back to Monica and Jess Love Boys, part four. Yeah.

We'll get into our challenges to be fair and to be open and honest. The last time we recorded was a month ago. Yes. So we've had a month to complete our last challenge, and we'll talk about that a little bit. But I want to introduce our guest for today. We have a very special, he's rolling his eyes, guest, the resident armchair therapist, Harry. Harry is a therapist here in Los Angeles. You've heard of him because Dax and Kristen talk about him ad nauseum and how he's changed the trajectory of their relationship. And so we commandeered Harry for this podcast so that we could get some real knowledgeable insight

on all the things we've been talking about. Okay. So Jess, what was your challenge last week or last month my challenge was to put on both of my apps that i'm only looking for a relationship so changing all of the other parameters of it and to change my age parameters so i could only see 37 to 50 year olds right i like both of those yeah that was on grinder and tinder those are from Kristen. Yeah. Those are Kristen's challenges. Very good. Lots of people looking for serious commitments on Grindr. See, in my day, we had nothing but alcoholism. So. Right. We still have that. Yes. That's right. I know you do. And it was interesting. And I told them this. I did not like the first day. I was like, this is horrible. And the second day I was like, look at this guy. Oh, he has a kid, a 10 year old kid, and we're supposed to hang out.

And that was really nice. Talked to a couple other guys. And then unfortunately, my dad got very, very, very sick and he passed over the Christmas break. Yeah. So I haven't had sex or dated in two months. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

Two? Yeah. It's since, you know, December 1st-ish, everything. Yeah. So a little over a month. I got that wrong. A little over a month. That felt like two months.

It felt like two years. For someone who loves that, it felt like forever, actually. It's only been a month. Lots of feelings about that. I mean, really, that something happened in my life and i didn't turn to that i think that's great i liked that i'm sorry about the motivation but yes but i'm i'm instantly curious i mean and does it settle down a little bit inside the anxiety yes yeah i felt really know, the last two weeks of his life were very rapid and I was there every single day and I showed up and I quit drinking and I held his hand and I made my family laugh and I did errands for them. It was just very, and he moaned and knew I was there and said, he grabbed my hand and said, I love you and all these nice things. Yeah, your focus shifted.

Yeah, it did. I'm glad you were able to be there like that. Yeah. They just called me 10 minutes ago to pick up his ashes, too, which I did not like that phone call. So it's all happening. But I felt very complete and I felt like I showed up as much as I could and I was there and I don't have a lot of regrets at all. You know, he was going to be put in a home and we, the day before we were going to put him in a home, he died. So I'm glad he fell asleep at my step-mom's and everything was, um,

there's a nice bow to it. And if there can be one, yeah, there can be, yeah, there can be. Really zapping me. I've had these conversations with my daughter lately because I'm an old dad. So yeah, I think it's what you manage to do. And he managed to do as well as just to put things out there where you're actually talking about what's happening. Yeah. And a lot of times we don't. And then it's horrific and blindsiding and devastating. And you don't get to say something or hear something you absolutely need to hear. And I think that's far worse.

The nicest thing you've said is that you feel good about what you did. I do. Because I'm an old man and you think about it long, long after they're gone. Yes. Whether you did or didn't show up. And I almost feel too good sometimes where someone will send me a text or a picture and I go, should I be feeling worse?

Yeah. Am I suffering enough? Exactly. That's a long one. That's a whole other subject. But grief is weird that way. Yeah, very. It's crowded here at the center of the universe and I was here first.

Yeah. And so we think there's like somebody keeping score. Right. No. You got a thermostat and it will kick on and kick off and you'll find a song lyric, a conversation, and suddenly up comes this huge wave of grief. And then it'll go away and you say, is there something wrong with me? Am I over this already? Right.

No, you're just not going to get more than you can handle. That's nice. Especially since you showed up. I love that. The fact that you feel good, that's going to mean more and more and more to you. Thank you. Yeah. Yay.

What about yours? Yeah. How was your month? So you had one month to do what? I had one month. You went out with 47 men. That's right. No.

I wish. Yeah, that's Jess's dream challenge for me. My challenge given by Kristen was to give somebody my phone number in person, which I've never done in my life. How not 2020. Exactly. And I was so terrified. This was not coming easy to me. And there were a couple opportunities. We were going to go to this Christmas party. Jess and I were going to go together. And we thought, oh, there

will definitely be people there that I could talk to and potentially do this. But then, of course, I canceled on that. I canceled on other things where there were opportunities. Then I went home for the holidays and removed it off the table. I can't do it at home. So then I got back still procrastinating. And yesterday, yesterday was the deadline. And the night before I went to bed and I thought, oh my God, I didn't do it. I did not do it. And I am not someone who is comfortable with I am not someone who is comfortable with not achieving the goal or doing what I set out to do or meeting a commitment. That does not sit well with me. But I was just like, it's the last day. And I didn't do it.

And I went to bed and I had four nightmares about it. I had four separate nightmares about different scenarios where I was trying to give my number away and I couldn't. And one of them. You couldn't do it or it wasn't accepted or what? So in the first one, I was sitting with a friend and this guy came up and he was chatting and I gave him my phone number. And then it went well. But then about 10 minutes later, he came back and he was really upset that I had given it to him. And he really had come over to talk to my friend and he didn't want.

Oh, my God. He did not want my phone number. That was the first dream. And then I think they spiraled from there. I don't really remember the details of the others, but along those lines of it just went badly. And so I woke up and I texted Jess and I said, oh, my gosh, it's the last day. Should we go to a bar tonight? Should I try to do this?

And ultimately I thought, no, it's not going to happen. Let's come up with some sort of penalty system for the fact that I didn't. Right. And then I put it out of my head. I went to get pancakes at this restaurant in our neighborhood. My waiter was this guy that I had met before at that restaurant. He used to be a host there. And we had had a conversation once before when I was just waiting.

And he was very nice, very cute. And we talked about the neighborhood. He had just moved into the neighborhood. Whatever. This was months ago. And then I sit down and he's my waiter. And I thought, oh boy, I think this is the universe. Maybe there is a God. Yep, exactly.

Who hates me. Correct. Correct. Exactly as I predicted. Anyway. Yeah. And so it was like, I have to. And so we were chatting and I said, hey, weren't you the host and he said yeah yes we've met we've had a conversation before and he was like yeah and you're from the south and so am I and I said yeah and you live around here right and he said yeah and I said you know if you ever want to get happy hours sometime in the neighborhood you know I'd like to do that and he was like yes absolutely and I said okay so I'll leave you my phone number I know right down to the wire right down and it wasn't that I I mean I was the night before like I'm just gonna have to find a random person on the street and just throw them my phone

number even though that wasn't I don't think that was the idea. It wasn't the idea or the rule actually. But so, yeah. And so it sort of happened also in a way that was good. It was a cute person that I had talked to before that I already was like, oh, that's a person that's interesting. Probably not going to humiliate me. Exactly. So, so I did it.

It was, I felt so proud of myself. I was so proud of you. I was so proud of you. I was at work and I was like smiling for two hours. This must feel really good for her. Yes. It was so interesting. I had so many thoughts on it immediately. It felt so good having nothing to do with him.

Oh, is that profound? Yes. Yeah. And nothing to do with the fact that would he text me? Would he not? That wasn't even in my realm of consideration. It was just that, oh, wow, I just did something that I thought I could truly not do. And I did it. And it was just jumping this hurdle that felt really, really good. Yeah. It's just not about the other person, is it? No, what's profound there is, no, it's not.

It's really about us. It's all, yeah. That's, you know, unless I feel somehow useful, I don't know how to show up and be there. Mm-hmm. You know? And your dream is fascinating to me. Why'd you give me this?

I mean, what the fuck? What? Ooh. I know. But that's about you on some deep level. Oh, for sure. And talking to yourself, saying, you know, no one's going to want to. You're wrong, by the way.

Yeah. I'm going to be very hetero. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Jesus, I'm sitting right here. In the dream, specifically the part about I came here to see your friend. Yes.

Is, I mean, I've lived that I have lived that multiple times growing up, I felt. And so that is just ingrained in me that if we're in a group situation, I'm not going to be the shiny person or I'm not going to be the person that when they come up, they want to talk to. I've just always felt that. And of course, it came up in this dream when I'm on this deadline to do this thing, which I hadn't thought about that aspect in a long time. And actually, it came up maybe a year ago, probably right around a year ago. I was at a birthday party with Kristen and another friend and, you know, you know, girls and guys, but you'll do this before you go to a party

where you, you decide, you put goals on it. Like we're going to meet our boyfriend tonight or we're going to, you know, like, yes, you do. Yes. I know now. We do this thing where you're getting ready and you're getting all hyped up and it's like, oh, tonight's the night where you're going to hook up or have fun or I don't know. There's like this layer that gets put on it that becomes. Expectations. An expectation. An expectation. And I just over time have gotten a little allergic to that because every time I go in

with that expectation, it never gets fulfilled. And so that was happening in this circumstance. And, um, cause we were like, well, who's going to be there? Are there going to be any guys there, like new people? And then Kristen was like, oh, well, there's this one guy and he's really great. And, and my other friend is single as well. So we go there and then Kristen is talking to him and then she comes back and is like, okay, so, and it becomes this whole charade of like, who's going to go talk to him. Who's going to end up with this person. And he's clueless. And he's clueless to the whole thing. Yes. And I am immediately just so and so quickly bowed out and thought, I'm done with this.

I'm not getting involved in this. This makes me feel lower than ever that it's me up against another person. In competition. You're a good friend. Am I a good friend? Right. And then not getting chosen, like not feeling chosen is really hard for me. And the dream, the dream has a sense

of being rejected. Definitely. Like, well, why did you even, you know, think? I mean, triangulation like that is often rooted in childhood, like really early. Parents, siblings, things that happen that give you the idea that you're the odd man out or the different person or you don't fit or you don't belong or, you know. Well, I felt that growing up just being Indian and Georgia. But maybe it was even before that. I don't know. It could have been family stuff. Maybe it was even before that. I don't know.

It could have been family stuff, but because I feel like my therapist has also dug a little bit in that realm. Of course she has. Hell yes. She wouldn't be a good therapist if she didn't. There you go. But I don't know that we found any fruit there as far as, or maybe we just didn't get far enough, but the relationship with them and where maybe some of that stems from. Get her, get her. Get her. Yeah, no, the first instinct is kind of a little bit of an Electra thing, possibly,

that I don't think my daughter and I are like this, and I don't think she'll mind, but there's that level of closeness. But then when you're really close, you know, to the parent and then you gradually realize you can't have them, that they're not, whether it's Oedipal or Electra or whatever, it's the sense of really having a terrible crush kind of on a parent. There's nothing sexual about that. There's nothing sexual about it, but you remember when daddy's, that daddy's face itched, that he smelled different. You remember waiting for him to come home when you're three or four or five, your daddy's girl, and you come running across the carpet so happy and so on. And then you sort of realize, yeah, but these people have their relationship and the adult world and I don't fit.

And it can be a little crushing sometimes. Interesting. It's actually a pretty common, you know, the edible thing for boys, but it's a pretty common thing to talk about. And it's been, Freud was wrong about so much, we forget he was right about a few things. Right. And that one is, is, it pops up a lot. That's interesting. The dream kind of says, what makes you think? Take this back. Right. That just hits that nerve for me. I'm like, hmm. Interesting.

Well, that's funny because there are a lot of the things you just said that are true. I mean, I definitely have specific memories of being excited for. That's called being a little girl. Yeah, exactly. I wasn't one, but I've known a few. Yeah. Because that's an infatuation. I mean, it's where you begin to really get that sense of being enthralled with someone else.

Well, that is incredibly fascinating because I mean, I'm 100 percent for sure someone who fantasizes, has infatuations and wants things I can't have like times a billion. So we're getting there. That's, but I never ever would have thought that because I'm fairly close with my parents, but I'm, I never was someone who was super, super close. You were three. How do I say, how can I say never? Yeah. I think that part of our lives is almost traumatic. I think a lot of people have a kind of PTSD about early childhood. The intensity of your tantrums, of your losses, of your broken heart, of losing things and pets. And there's some stuff that's just, we don't know how to process it. And we start smothering it with whatever the world tells us we're supposed to be.

And then when we get in relationships or really want somebody or want to have one, that piece of us comes back, that desperately needy, confused, hurt kid. And the adult me would never know what to do with that. So I'd get out the scotch. Right. But it just is like, what is this craziness? What is this? Why can't I just say, let's go to a movie? Why is everything so excruciating? And a lot of it's because we're remembering or superimposing. And so you might say, you know, that dream is almost a part of you saying, hey, you've already decided. Yeah. Oh, boy.

But I love what you said, that you got that sense of I did this because it wasn't about him. That's fine. Maybe you'll go out with this guy and it'll be great and that's fine. But this was about overcoming those old tapes that aren't accurate. Were they accurate when you were five? Yes. You can't have your mom or your dad. Right, right.

There might be a sibling that your parents favor in some ways over you and you have to adjust to the fact that that's true. But in this instance, you overcame a bunch of old tapes that aren't relevant, and you felt it. Yeah. That's very cool. And I think you did that, too, with your dad. I think you overcame something old there. Yeah.

Yeah. That's exciting stuff. In Monica's reference, this is my question. Have you heard of, I don't know, a sexual or relationship anorexia kind of thing where you stay away from something for that long, for 15, 20 years? It is called sexual anorexia. Really? Yeah. And are there trop stumbling across pornography when you weren't old enough to understand why it would be under my grandfather's sink.

Interesting. And that can make you inconsistent with pursuing sex. So people get almost promiscuous and then kind of anorexic or one or the other. As opposed to just, oh, this is cool. This is a safe scenario for me to open myself up and have a sexual relationship. Yeah. Let's be honest. How many people do you know that do that easily?

You know a lot of people who tell themselves they're doing it easily. Exactly. But if you've had 370 partners in the last year or something, it might be a little excessive. Yeah. And if you haven't been on a date in a while, why? And it's very rarely, like you say, it's not the other person. It's never the other person. It's not even 2020. It's we're carrying ghosts around. We carry our history. I might've asked you this, but do you

ever think you weren't dating or having sex because you just weren't good at it and you really love doing things you're good at? I think you have asked me that. I mean, you're good at? I think you have asked me that. I mean, I, yes and no. Yes. At the, when I was younger and I liked boys and I, there were, there wasn't a reciprocation because of X, Y, or Z. I was like, well, these things are out of my control. I can't do anything about this. So I can't put energy here because this doesn't bear any fruit. So I'm going to have to put energy in other areas, which is interesting because we just had Ronan Farrow on armchair and he had brought up the best boy in the world syndrome. Yes, this phenomenon that gay boys often fall into where they have to be perfect in all

the realms of their life and they have to get straight A's where they have to be perfect in all the realms of their life. And they have to get straight A's and they have to be hot. And, you know, their bodies have to be perfect. They have all the things they can control. Yes. They do. Yes. Because there's this huge element that they can't control.

And I totally can connect with that as well. I think women have gone through a version of that for a long time. Yeah. So much of it feels like it's out of your hands and you're letting other people make the decisions about you and whether you're worthy or valuable or attractive or any of that. And so when the answer you feel like you're getting is no to all those, just out of self preservation, you take a left turn and say, okay, so I'm not valuable there,

but I am valuable here. I'm valuable at work and I'm, you know, and so I will put my energy there. I mean, I think that is part of what. Yeah. And I wonder if being sort of externally referenced isn't the problem that whether someone else is interested in us dictates whether we're worthwhile. I mean, even Buddha in his own way was saying there's no outside answer to an inside problem. And we do. I mean, we seek the immediate fix, the pills, the drugs, the sex, the entertainment, the, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a mistake a lot of us make where we let other people dictate our self-worth. I think little's a mistake a lot of us make where we let other people dictate our self-worth.

I think little kids have almost no choice. They just don't. I mean, it's the way it is. Somewhere along the way, we're supposed to start figuring out that what we think of ourselves is more important. I mean, I care what people think of me. I just care what I think of me more. And if you make me choose, I'm going to try to do what I'm okay with. She doesn't have a lot of that, though.

Like, you might have. I don't think you have as much as you think. I agree, just in knowing you a great period of time. You may feel like that, but you're pretty spot on. Oh, I totally am. You got brass ovaries, girl. I do. I do. But again, in the realms where I feel confident, you all see me in those spaces. Like you see me in all the spaces where I do know my worth. I've tested it and I know the boundaries of it. So you see that, but you don't see me out trying to give someone my phone number. Which would be testing it.

Three to five guys or six or seven guys that you've gone out with are all handsome and they've all been interested in you and you just kind of are flippant about it, you know, because what they think about you isn't going to change the way you think, which I think is admirable. When I have, you know, a good looking guy or someone that is interested in me, I definitely like, well, I don't, I don't really see it, but I'm going to give it a chance like i'm just like oh what do you need what do you you know i just definitely bend over backwards a little bit like i joke that like if i date a vegan you know that i eat quinoa and if i date an outdoorsy guy i camp and if i date a black guy i get pulled over

you know it's like my thing i'm like how do you like your eggs what he's like what do you want to order i'm like what do you want me to want to order like i mean so you don't have that at all which i don't have that i'm dating you guys 13 and 14 years younger and i'm paying for things i'm like i don't have that kind of money i want this approval that is addictive yes and i think you do a version of that which is the person that's on your arm you think is a reflection of you yes so you need that person to be like if it's a really handsome person but you're not super interested for you there's still points in the fact that he's handsome because you think like I'll grow to like his personality. Yeah. His absence of character is weirdly charming.

He loves Satan, cool. I don't know a lot about Satan, but I'll look it into it. I never liked animals anyway. Yes, but I think it's because you think your proximity to them elevates you. But you're describing something that's kind of that oxytocin hit that sort of bonding hormone and testosterone hit and it's really addicting and that crush i know just that never goes away even when you're old enough and smart enough to not act on it it's

that that vibe is just amazing yeah when you meet somebody and there's a little sparkle butterfly yeah and i talked about that too And it's very addicting. Yeah. I know now, though, that that's not what I'm going for. But I just want a little bit of it. Somebody once said that immature love is I love how you make me feel. Which is funny because in my head, I'm like, yeah, that's good. That's right. But that's not right.

That's not what we should be seeking, right? You don't sound like you get high. No, you don't. You don't let yourself get high on it. Well, I don't get to that point. No. You're right. I don't let myself get high on it. Well, I don't get to that point. No, I don't let myself really get there. I mean, I did. I did at some point. But again, like I said, I had a couple instances in life when I had all of that.

It was not reciprocated. And then that feeling was so crushing and so powerful that at some point my body got conditioned to just not do it. Your body is not conditioned. My brain is conditioned. It's probably more like. Not to risk it. So you go to the fantasies you can control. 100%.

Yeah. That's why their porn shops exist for guys and stuff too. The number one bestselling books in America are women's romance novels. That's what I call female porn. Yeah. Outlander, you know, Fifty Shades of Grey. I definitely had best little boy syndrome, whatever that, best boy in the world. Oh my God.

I knew my whole life that I was different. I was adapting on double time against my straight counterparts. I always felt 15 years time against my straight counterparts. I always felt 15 years behind all my straight friends. I made sure I was good at basketball. I made sure I was funny. I made sure that maybe, you know, I could sing. I made sure that they were not looking at this thing that I knew was there for so long. And that gets exhausting. And that leads to like addiction and drinking and over-sexualization. And I remember I was at the Groundlings for seven years with, I was verbally gay, but I didn't have,

don't think about it because I was at the Groundlings. I was doing this thing. Soon as I got cut, I cried for three months and I got a perfect body and I tried steroids and I started having sex. And I, and I was like, like, I'm not good enough to be an actor. I'm not funny enough. Let's sit on a dick. I'm joking, but I did, man. There's a sense of control, but not just validation. There's a sense of control.

Also, girls, it's not safe for them to do that. I'm a 6'5", 225-pound guy. It is most definitely not. girls it's not safe for them to do that i'm a six five two hundred twenty five pounds no it is it is most definitely no right you know i am surprised of how many hookups i've had going into strangers houses and them coming to my house thousands and not one has ever been um dangerous or scary or anything the most dangerous thing is you get to their house and they're not who they say they are and they block you or whatever. Right. And I wasted the gas. That gas money. Very easy to control.

Very impersonal. You both have control issues that you manifest in different ways. You're both extremely smart, so you can bullshit yourself. But I loved having a boyfriend, though. I loved it. You have such a softness. That's the most appealing part of you I loved it and I felt like I was

I didn't have to always care about myself Oh god that's so boring I was romantic And I never cheated I love monogamy and all these things I mean I've only had three boyfriends But I act out whether it's drinking Or lots of sex because I'm just like

Restless I only work 18 hours a week. Which I actually do think is a real factor. Time. Time. Yeah. Like, well, honestly, because you think about your dad, that took up time. Yes.

It took up time and space and energy. It connected you to something outside of yourself in a meaningful way, not in a masturbatory way. And there's a difference. Man. It was the to something outside of yourself in a meaningful way, not in a masturbatory way. And there's a difference. Man, it was the first time I texted Dax. I go, this is the first time in my life that I felt this is what healthy self-esteem feels like. Wow. He goes, yeah, it's not a real cocaine, but it's like a nice big spinach salad, Jess. And it was true. It was like, you know, when you eat a big spinach salad,

it's like, that was filling but where's that high and i didn't have it but i left every every time i would be at his house for 10 hours and i'd come home and i'm like there's this there's the little voice it's a quiet voice it's not this high i just said you did a good job today and it was i don't want to cry but it was like so good it was felt really good you approved approved of you. You approved of you. Yes. You didn't go outside to get us to do it. And I know that little voice.

It's been keeping me alive for a long time and sober 34 years. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's so powerful. That's so true. Yeah, you approved of you. And in most cases, you rely on somebody else to approve of you. I like the way you describe that.

It's a quiet sense of, no, this is the way it should be. And it's not as loud as The Temptations. No. And being sober a long time doesn't change that. I'm still crazy. It's not as loud, but it's meaningful and constant. And it just kind of puts your back on track. We are supported by Policy Genius.

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I had one the other day, actually. It's small, faint. This woman keeps coming up to me at my restaurant and wants me to write with her. And I'm just like, no, I'm not. And then she's been compounding me and she has this pilot she wants me to help her with. It's about a restaurant and I won't tell too much about it, but she wanted my input on it and she won't let up because I've been so healthy lately through my dad. I haven't been drinking and all this stuff. I have a clearer head. And this little voice said, I think you should do this. I think this is the year that you do something that you've never done before. There's such a quiet voice.

It's actually called the still small voice. Quite spiritual. It might have been your little voice to say I should make do this podcast or something when you were like, you should give this a try. It's my small tiny voice. It's a little baby voice. Do you guys know Joseph Campbell's work at all?

Not well enough. I mean, the books are really dense, but just the old Bill Moyers thing on PBS is still brilliant. Even though it's cheesy, it's from 1984. It holds up great. And he just talks about myth and fairy tales and folk tales and religions and how they actually tell emotional truths about us. And he talks about the call of the hero that you just get this little quiet voice that says, hey, come over here into

the woods in the myth, right? Or the fairy tale. And the guy says, no, I can't. Everybody says, no one ever should go from the village into the woods. And yeah, but you're different. Come on. And the hero does it. And then suddenly there's this huge, terrifying adventure with monsters and witches and whatever. And he emerges with a wisdom or an idea or a something to bring back because he's been changed. Prometheus steals the fire and comes back. And that's what James Joyce, I think, called the mono myth. And these things are cool because they're about us. When you get that little push, the Irish call it the wind at your back, but when you get that little push and you go, I think I'll try a novel. I think I'll do this. I think we'll do that. And your whole life changes. How many times do we ignore that little push? I think we do.

I think a lot. Yeah, definitely. And not even all of us listen. A lot of us will never even hear it. But I've come to believe, and I'm 71, I've come to believe we've all got it. It's just that we miss it. He called it refusing the call. And he says, you're only going to get a couple of times where it's loud enough. A friend of mine used to say the most powerful prayer in the world and i'm not particularly religious but the most powerful player in the world is what do you want me to do and then stop thinking go out water your garden do something else otherwise we're on somebody else's journey we're in somebody else's novel we're in somebody else's movie you know someone else is telling us if we did okay.

That's the really two or three really powerful things about your dad. But that thing that says, no, you know, I like what I'm doing here. And that's giving birth to this idea of maybe I'll try this or maybe I'll try that. That's very cool. Or what you're saying, that little sense of victory that I overcame that fear to go ahead and do this. And it's fine. We're given our power away all the time and don't even know it. And I guess, how can we train ourselves to hear that voice? Or not even for us, but for the audience, you know? I think so many people put that voice away or don't know how to

hear it or don't know. We may start getting talked out of that childhood when we get civilized. I don't know. But that's what meditation is for. And I'm not 100% that, but creativity, musicianship, writing poetry, reading poetry, and being creative. I'm really lately thinking about me being gay. I think about it a lot, which I never really did in my 20s and 30s, was way more not talking about it. I'm this and that, and this is a small part of me.

This is not a big part of me. And lately, my whole family, maybe 35 people, everyone is married and have kids, and I'm the only person I'm trying to figure out at 43 what is me and what is this thing I put up to be okay this kind of shield oh I love that question yes you know what part is Jess to his core and what part is this like this magical shiny thing that I put up my whole life since I've been eight years old to make people like me. If it's to make people like you, it's not you. Yeah. And now I'm trying to keep things I like and I'm trying to be authentic. And I'm like, but I'm not want to be funny, but I also want to be transparent. But, and Dex says this all the

time. He thought certain things that they loved about him. No, no one gives a fuck that you drive good and that you can beat people up. And I'm trying to think that maybe the things people like about me, not because I'm provocative and I'm sexual and all these things that I thought were like- You made them your identity. Yes, I'm trying to figure out what part it was an act.

I took the Landmark Forum many, many, many years ago. And there's an act that we come up with when we're young. And I'm trying to separate them. And it's really an interesting exercise to see what part is like truly me or genetics or this or that and upbringing and great. And one part is like, you don't have to do that anymore, Jess. I think that's middle age. You know, I don't really want to that anymore, Jess. I think that's middle age. I think.

You know, I don't really want to be 20 again. I was batshit crazy. Yeah. I really don't. I'd want to be 33 again, though. I don't want. I was still crazy. Somewhere around 38 to 40.

Yeah. I thought, I get this. I get it. Somewhere I got sober at 36. And somewhere in that ballpark, something snapped in. Yeah. That that's not authentic. This is. That's not, this is.

Just that awareness of which way you want to go in the maze. And I read something, Carl Rogers was a psychologist that was big in the early 60s. He was kind of one of the dads of the humanistic existential theory and stuff and being present in the room with people to be a good therapist. And he said, we are in the process of becoming a person. And yeah, there's no finish line. This is just an ongoing process. And we assume it's over when I check out, but we don't even know that. He also said about relationships that the most, I hope I don't screw this up too bad,

the most powerful thing in the world is to give someone everything they need to destroy you and they do not choose to use it. I dropped the book. I mean, just literally, it was like an electric shock. I just got chills. I made me think of your NDA that you did or didn't sign. There's an ongoing debate of whether or not

I've signed an NDA with Dax and Kristen. I think no, and he thinks no. I don't think they have one. Exactly, exactly. I think there was an idea that never got executed, but that's for another round. I think when we look at relationships, and now we're completely on the ground of personal opinion,

but we forget that you're pursuing someone with whom you can be that vulnerable. Right. And they go, okay, that's okay. We've both been turned off by people that are vulnerable too soon. Well, needy. Not vulnerable. There's a difference. There's a difference.

Yeah, you're right. It's a hard difference to find. But when, like when you talk about that voice where you're tending to your dad or the way you've been after and you go, I like this. I think the word I used when I finally plugged in was I think I respect myself. I've never understood how to love myself. I don't get that. And with my history, that's not surprising. But yeah, not bad, man.

That's a good feeling to have. And when you're looking at the last act, not bad. If it's checking out tomorrow, I would still have to say not bad, man. That's a good feeling to have. And when you're looking at the last act, not bad. If it's checking out tomorrow, I would still have to say not bad. And Harry, what do you think the line is between needy and vulnerable? Oh, yeah, that's a tough one. It's very tough. But I think everyone struggles with that because especially in these relationships at the beginning or even on these dates and stuff, you do feel like you have to put on a thing because you don't want to seem too needy. You want to seem independent, you know, but ultimately the

goal is, is to, to get to, if you can't get to some level of vulnerability, then you don't want to stay with, you should be auditioning me, not me. I'd really be a letdown, but you need to be auditioning the other guy and you need to be, is this a person? It's poker. I put down a card and I wait and see what you put down. And we match. And if you dump your whole life story on the first or second date, you just screwed the whole thing up. Right. Right. The whole goal is that we gradually learn, yes, you really are stable. You're reliable. You show up when you say you will. You're not popping four Vicodin when we're going to a wedding.

You know, there's a sense. And then you kind of go, all right, I think I can trust you with this about me. And when you do that and the other person goes, so? Sometimes if I see people that have burned out several therapists or can't trust anybody because they're celebrities or whatever, I'll say, before you leave, tell me one secret you've never told anyone, ever. People will almost always do it. And something changes. Because what they get back from me is, yeah, I've heard that before. Or let me tell you one of mine.

It's the fifth step in the 12-step programs. And you tell your whole history to somebody. And he just came right back with something that was on that was just as off the wall. And you go, what am I doing? It's confession in a sense. But the other person has to literally be someone you trust and they don't choose to use it against you at all. And that's both what we're seeking and what we're terrified of. So we'd rather sabotage our relationships, sexualize them, not have them, than run the risk of what you described, which is I started to open up to that level, gave my power away and got

shut down. We all do. But I'm the center of the universe. That hurts when it happens to me. I don't care about you. Not right now. But when, though? Is that when you're together? Is that six months? Is that boyfriend-girlfriend? Is that boyfriends? All I can tell you is when I see people swiping on Tinder or you are evaluating whether you want to screw somebody, you have just wrecked the entire idea. That has nothing to do with it.

Even my grandma from Nevada used to say the candle that burns the hottest burns out the quickest. If you're really hot for somebody, this ain't going anywhere. Oh, yeah. And the other one I use is if you feel like you've known her forever, you probably have. What does that mean? It means I married my mother the first time. Oh, interesting. And about six years in, sobered up and went, oh, Christ, what have I done? Oh, wow.

That's very interesting. The guy that withheld from you, I'd be very interested in knowing how much like your father he might have been inside. Maybe. Maybe? Just maybe? Maybe, just maybe. You look a little stricken. Yeah. On some level, I would have punched you if you said I was marrying my mother. But it was a kind of narcissistic woman from another country. And I was head over heels, gave my power away. And then when I sobered up, I thought, what? What? My God, what am I doing?

I'm chasing somebody who's just constitutionally not able to be there. And that's why I picked her. We picked these people. And I'm going back to the three relationships you said you had that didn't really last. By the way, most people have a few that don't last. It's another one we hate to face. It's a fact, right? But were any of those people the same pattern? The first one was my first boyfriend of all, and he was 13 years younger and he and he we felt i felt like he had come out when he was 11 and he was like 19 or something it was really this thing that i felt like i was 15 years

old and writing so in a sense he was almost more okay with it yes okay so we you know i flowers and go to dates it was like my first time at 35 years old feeling that second one how long did that last three months that's limerence. That's I love how you make me feel. It's not a bad thing. It's the best drug in the world. It's the best time I've done them all. But it's not going to last more than two or three months on the low side and tops 18 months to two years on the high side. It's usually a few months. And so people in high school and in their twenties will date somebody for two or three months. And when the limerence wears off, they go, you changed or they cheat or they do something stupid instead of looking to develop

this i just got sweats right now because i was embarrassed that it lasts three months i know it's such a weird feeling oh but uh yeah but it was my first ever boyfriend at 35 so i felt At 35. So I felt, I felt shame. I felt like, and he was 18 and I was 35. But I liked that he was more okay. Yeah, he had been out. And so it sort of normalized it for you. I know, it did. Which I think is kind of sweet. I don't mean to knock that.

But to realize that when that limerence begins to wear off, we go looking for someone else to give it to us. Most men will generally sexualize it more, gay or straight, than women do. Women romanticize it more. He cheated on me and it was over and it was... It's devastating. But we haven't taken the time to be vulnerable to the person that we can trust like that. We jumped in to do it. And it's so tempting because it feels so good.

Right. So if we're not looking for the way someone makes you feel, what's the antidote to the way they make me feel? Respect. This person is a great person. Terrific way to start. I mean, I'm not saying this saying I have the perfect marriage, but we've been together 30 years and we do pretty well with this stuff. She puts up with a lot of crap.

I'm batshit. And it's easy for me to recognize that she's a bitch. It's not so easy for me to recognize that I'm difficult. Of course. But both of us are good at doing that and respecting, I should look at my part of this. And so I did exactly that. This is someone I really like, intelligent, interested in a lot of the same things I respect. And I'm going to see where this goes.

And as the weeks and months go by, open up more, open up more, open up more. And she's put up with a lot of crap, but we're still here. What I kind of want to know is like that first six month rules and like things that like- Oh, you want some rules? No, not rules. Okay, some rules. I'd like some rules. Uncle Harry rule, you don't sleep with somebody for at least five weeks or so. Really? You go out no more than maybe three times a week. You don't hang on the phone for seven hours a night and say, I feel like I've known you forever because that means you have.

And you let it develop slowly so that you can be the one to say, I don't think this is right for me. As opposed to wait around to see what they think of you. Yeah. Whether you're going to be judged, whether he's not going to take your number or he's going to be mad that you gave it. Yeah. You evaluate me. You watch and let the relationship, the friendship develop to kind of see. The other piece, the flirtation, the sexuality, the touching somebody,

I recommend putting that off. But there's nothing wrong with going out with somebody once or twice and saying, I just think you're amazing. I think you're really attractive and really interesting, and I'm hoping that we can make this work. So you're off the hook, but you're actually in a way more vulnerable. You're told the truth instead of trying to find out if you want to have sex. Sex actually screws us up for being objective and human. Yeah, and definitely escalates that infatuation factor. Completely. No more logic. You're drunk. You're drunk. You're drunk. I like that rule. I kind of like that rule, too.

Yeah, you would like that rule. Bingo. But it's actually a really good idea. But the answer to that question is the still small voice. It's that little thing in you that says, I feel really good about how I did that. As opposed to, did he like me? Does she want to have sex with me? No. It should be, yeah, that was a really nice conversation.

That's a really smart person. So yes, I respect myself for how I dealt with it and the person I'm talking to. I want to see them again. My only relationship that actually went as far as it did was I didn't have sex for six or seven dates, which was unheard of, you know? And I-

How long did that one last? A year, 15 months. But you know something, when you're, you started late as it were, right? Right. But when you're first dating, that's really normal. People in high school, you see, they've been going out all senior year

was that rare couple, which is like five months. Yeah, it's true. That seemed like forever. Yeah. People would go out, sleep together, two, three weeks later, you drop them five months. Yeah, it's true. That seemed like forever. People would go out, sleep together. Two, three weeks later, you drop them, cheat on them, find somebody else. It's just chaos, right?

So then in your 20s, they have relationships. They try to make them last a year, 18 months, two years, breaks up again. And then by the end of our 20s, we're usually so sick of that, that we start trying a trial marriage or a first marriage or some kind of commitment. But we still don't really realize what we're usually so sick of that that we start trying a trial marriage or a first marriage or some kind of commitment but we still don't really realize what we're committing to we're just saying i won't see other people yeah but you're committing to growth trying to help

each other grow challenge each other and kristen and dax do that very very well yeah they challenge each other all the time yeah i mean you don't have to be that you know yeah they're really annoying Yeah. And if you have two adult human beings that are strong and have their own lives, they're going to clash. Exactly. And you're going to have a pattern that I always kind of draw like the sign for the universe, the endless, because it's really not one person's fault or the other's. It just happens when you try to bring the ends of the magnets together and they won't quite close because it's the wrong ends.

And so that force pops up and keeps pushing you apart and you have to come back and take another try at putting it back together. And that's what the struggling is about. It's about looking for an end to whatever that conflict is. But what you generally find is that it's almost the same conflict over and over and over. Yeah. When you watch it from the outside, that's clear as a bell. It's harder to see it in your relationship, but when you go to have one, you want to realize we're in this because we're rubbing each other wrong,

because it's producing growth, because it's making me mature, because it's activating that voice in my head that says, I feel really good about how I did that. Yeah. That's why you're with this person, because he or she is doing the same thing. And that works, that lasts. The other stuff, no. Yeah. That's why you're with this person, because he or she is doing the same thing. And that works.

That lasts. The other stuff, no. Yeah. We all know intellectually that it doesn't. When you get to be my age, you know. Right. What are some more rules? Well, not having sex for five weeks or so, not opening up too quickly, letting somebody know you're attracted and interested in them because nobody deserves to be twisting in the wind of their own neurosis about whether it's okay.

But that's not the same as, hey, you want to get it on? I just had a fantasy about you. That's just stupid. The second we sexualize it to that degree, we're going to scare you and we're going to make you go, all right, nevermind. I don't need a self. Well, that's, I just did this. I'm not going to mention any names, but this guy pushed the date to two hours, three hours, came back to my house. I said, I told him up front, I didn't want to have sex. And we ended up having sex. I never saw him again on my account. I did. I want to slow this down. I already done that. I've done that a lot, but I think I hurt his feelings. I don't like this. I don't want to see him again. And he's still calling me and texting me. And I... Why should you feel bad that he would not respect your boundaries?

Exactly. I don't think he heard... Well, he heard what he wanted to hear, but I made two or three attempts to end that date. But what if it had been something that says, no, all right, I get that. I can respect that. Most young guys, straight guys, right, would respect you more for saying yes yeah yeah not less and anybody who genuinely cares about you will be mildly disappointed but completely understand eight months into my last relationship he said do you remember our fifth fourth or fifth date we were making out and we were gonna have sex and you left he's like no one's ever done that before and it was like i know it's still a kind of a game kind of, I didn't know if it was a game or not.

I have the real truth to this story is that I wasn't ready for sex, but they took it. No one's ever done that before. And it's such a small thing, but it was like, I, if I did that more on a global level or more because I believed in it rather than play a game, you know. It's just, I would like this to work. And this is actually the best chance. Yes, you're attractive. Yes. You find me attractive.

That's fun. But let's not screw this thing up. Yeah, slow burn. Yeah. Yeah, because if it burns hot, it burns out. Yeah. It's true. Because mature love is I have decided to love who you are.

Yeah. Now, here's true. Because mature love is I have decided to love who you are. Yeah. Now, here's a big shocker. Sometimes loving who you are means I can't have you. Sometimes. You're married to somebody else. It's inappropriate. The age difference is too great. There's some reason why I recognize that I'd probably not be able to stay.

And it's something you want because you want to have kids, and you're 35, and blah, blah, blah. You are your sister's keeper, so I also have to sometimes go, it's not right for you, and run the risk of hurting you. I give men that advice sometimes, and every one of them said that the woman eventually, after being really upset,

eventually communicated to say, thank you for being honest. You really saved me a whole lot of pain and trouble as the clock was ticking and stuff. Yeah. Are we conscious of each other and are we here to grow? And most of the time, no. I'm here to avoid being hurt.

I'm just horny. I'm scared. We're not actually here to improve each other's lives. And that's love. That's what it is. But, you know, my ego doesn't always get what it wants. That's okay. That's hard.

Growing up's a bitch. You're just in the process, trying to become a person. When I feel addict-y, I can say that, I want. And when I'm not, it feels so great. My sponsor used to say, I have an ongoing obsession with I mean mine more now. That nails it. Yeah. Yeah.

Someone said to me, I watched a rehab show where, I think it was Dr. Drew, he goes, what triggers you to drink? And she goes, people, places, and things. Oh my God, that's great. That is great. Sobriety, I mean, that's a whole nother topic. For me, I've always, I mean, I've talked about it with Dax for years and years and years. It's very easy for me to wrap my sobriety in a diet rather than, you know, quitting drinking for three months because I want to be healthy is very attainable for me.

But quitting drinking for three months because I think I have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol is very difficult for me. And it stems into the sex. I think I have a poo poo platter of a little bit of everything as far as sex and approval. And none of them have ever gotten really me in trouble, you know, but it was it. That's another fortunate. Yeah. You're also physically big, which helps. Yeah, for sure. But also with your dad, all that stuff, I think, you know, that would have been a moment if you were in an unhealthy place. Yes. That you would have turned. For sure. To any of those things to give you just a spike of good feelings amidst like some bad feelings. But you didn't do that. And that might be a little that hitting bottom thing that addicts talk about.

Right. You know, and you realize that this is just not working and it motivates you. And then it's just, how do you sustain that? Right. And I'm pretty sure that Dax would say the same thing that I'm going to say, which is you're thinking about it all wrong. If you think three months, six months, one year, 40 years, in my case, it's been 34. It's been today.

And when the old timers would say, I'm just like you, congratulations on your 90 days, I've got today too. I thought, what a bunch of crap. It didn't seem real, but it's 100% real. The demon is still there. Absolutely still there every single day. Every time I've had a surgery, every St. Patrick's Day. Yeah.

It's there. And so I just don't do it today. And I'm, you know, at this day, I'm pretty damn sure about the immediate future. Yeah. But, you know, who knows in five or 10 years? I'm not taking that for granted, so I don't do it today. And that's helpful for relationships, too. And these patterns we're in.

Absolutely. Patterns we're in of, yeah, the same thing's still there and it's really not going to go away. The thing that's stopping me, the thing that's making you want to go on 10 dates, like these things are, we can force ourselves to break these patterns and do things to get outside the box, but that's a fight that's going to be happening probably for the rest of my life. You're in the process of becoming a person. And if you're a little phobic about certain things or a little anxious, you're going to have issues with anxiety and other things or depression or

whatever your thing is. We all do. Everybody does. And it's stunning to realize that what is extremely rare is to not have emotional and mental problems of different kinds. And some of it is genetics. We didn't even touch on that. But the tendency to be obsessive compulsive and anxious about it is almost always connected with the kind of behavior you're struggling against. It's not completely causal, but when I was a kid, I had all these things of tearing the hair out of the back of my head and patterns and habits, and we didn't have name for them

in 1960. Yeah. That was just the way boys were. Monica and Jess Love Boys is supported by BetterHelp Online Counseling. So life is tough. Life throws you some things. I just got thrown something recently, a medical condition, and it came out of nowhere, really threw me for a loop. And the first thing I thought was, I got to get into my therapist ASAP because everything's tied together, your physical health, your mental health, it affects everything. We could all use help when we're feeling down, but may not know exactly where to go for it. And BetterHelp is

available for you. BetterHelp offers licensed counselors who specialize in issues including depression and anxiety, as well as complicated relationships, family relationships, sleeping, grief, stress, trauma, anger, the list goes on. You can connect privately with a counselor through text, chat, phone, and and video calls it's so easy very convenient because i know people get sort of hung up on like i don't know how to do it or i don't want to go through my insurance exactly lots of things to get hung up on but this is a super direct line easy way you can get help on your own time at your own pace at an affordable rate monica and just love boys listeners will get 10% off their first

month with the discount code MONICA. That's betterhelp.com slash MONICA. Why not get help? Betterhelp.com slash MONICA. We are supported by Roman. Jess, if you had to guess on average how many days people in the U.S. have to wait to see a doctor, what would you guess? A week and a half to two weeks. Americans have to wait around 29 days to see a doctor in major U.S. cities. And so if you're dealing with any condition, one being erectile dysfunction, you need treatment ASAP. You can't wait 29 days. So that's why our friends at Roman have spent years building a digital platform that can connect you with a doctor licensed in your state all from the comfort of your home. You can connect you with a doctor licensed in your state

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with free two-day shipping. You get free unlimited follow-ups with your doctor anytime you have questions or you want to adjust your treatment plan. This is amazing. There should be less shame in all this. There has to be less shame and more access to treatment. I think people just push it away and mute that button.

And no, you have to address it. And it doesn't need to stop your sexual activity or your life. With Roman, there are no commitments. You can cancel anytime. So if you're struggling with ED, go to GetRoman.com slash Monica for a free online visit and free two-day shipping. That's GetRoman.com slash Monica for a free online visit and free two-day shipping. you know when my dad died he i now have all of this stuff and i sent her a letter that i wrote to my dad because i moved to america and my dad lived in sweden still so i would have to i would

send letters to him and i was 11 years old and three times in this letter i mentioned my weight oh i go i'm 110 pounds dad i was 11 years old i'm eating too much meat i'm sorry i i know i it was yeah it's my parents definitely had some issues with food but to see that 11 year old kid apologize for being 110 pounds was like it made me laugh but it's heartbreaking also it's heartbreaking because it's carried into the need for the validation that you're not fat and that you've got a ripped body and you're a perfect guy and all this crap which he still carries i mean and that's not limited to gay men i most women wrestle with that stuff definitely i mean that breakup and and losing myself for maybe a year and a half of crying for four or five hours a day.

Why was it so devastating for me, do you think? A lot of what we do, we do because of attachment. What happened to us with our parents at a young age, you know, and you're much more in touch with some of these anxieties and whatever. And you've got, you know, Monica's got hers pretty well in Tupperware, where she's not letting them out very much. So there's part of me that just wants to go in, you know. There are reasons for that that have to do with attachment.

And when you, sometimes when you trace your childhood back, and I know you've had some therapy, you look for that and you say, why did that kid feel so bad? Why was it his father he apologized to? Why was his father so obsessed with the wig? Something about him and his vanity or his perception, and you got sucked into trying to make him okay with who you are. And that may go all the way back to four or five, which is what I was saying earlier, that a lot of what we go through is almost like a post-traumatic stress

flashback. And that's why we suddenly just feel like the ground is opening up from anxiety or whatever. But when you're young, you're not far enough away to see that. And you can't remember it. Most of us don't remember very much until we're close to 30, about our early childhood. At my age, I can remember now, you know, being on horseback, the desert, the heat on the back of my neck, It's all as vivid as if it just happened yesterday. Little things like that. Well, it's so funny because the other day, Jess came over and we were talking and I was like, oh, we're going to have Harry on. And he's like, great. I feel like, I don't know, I'm just a little nervous. I'm nervous that this relationship podcast is turning more into a about us podcast. And I was like, that's what relationships are.

They're just about us and all of the shit that we are dealing with. And finding the common thread. So even in our conversation or when you're trying to start a new relationship that's beginning friendship or and or. And I don't think there's a major difference between a friendship that becomes sexual and a deep friendship. There shouldn't be. Yeah, I like that.

Right? There shouldn't be. But to do that, I have to be willing to have these kinds of exchanges with those people before I sleep with them and get nuts. If anybody wants to do that on the first and second day, to flip back to that question, that's pretty needy. I don't know if you can hear me. I don't know even if I'm going to say this the right way. But as we get to know each other over time, when there's that element, you release a little I do, you do, I do. We build trust and then we go, shall we go to the next level?

I mean, it sounds formal, but it's not. It's just slowing down. And, you know, I said that once to a woman who was just a total romance addict. She said, well, nobody would ever get laid. Yeah, well. And I said considerably less. But in your case, that might not be bad. What do you want is where I would go.

It's time to ask yourself, really, it would almost be my assignment, what do I actually want? You come off sometimes just like you're the WeHo guy, you know, that's funny and acerbic. But you're much, much gentler, much deeper, and you've been through some things lately that are deep. You're quite vulnerable. My sense is that you probably want something a whole lot deeper. It's just I don't quite know how to get it. Stop wasting your time on someone who doesn't understand that.

Right. Period. Hence the age parameters and hence the, you know. How old are you now? 43. I would make under 35 the breaking one. Right. I'm open to anything.

I think that this is kind of a perfect time in my life after my dad died that I am kind of a new little baby Phoenix. I don't have to be the old Jess anymore. I feel very fresh starty. I feel 2020. I do. I don't know what that means yet. Don't overthink that. Yeah, that's good. It's good. Sometimes people, when they lose their parents will say, uh, I'm an orphan and I've, I had a very different relationship with mine, but, but I'm always a little stunned by that. And then I realized that it's because we carry way down deep, these unfinished wounds, all of us. And then I realized that it's because we carry way down deep these unfinished wounds,

all of us. And I don't go a day where I don't think about my parents and my father's been dead since 1983 and my mother since 99, 20 years. And you think about it and the older you get, the more you do. And I realized, you know, if you still in those deep fantasies and thoughts and mythologies that we carry, if you're still that little girl that can't quite get someone's attention or whatever, if you're still that little boy who's like, I'm sorry, I ate too much. Well, no wonder we can't make our relationships work. And if we can't find a way of sharing that like we are doing, if you can't find a way of sharing that with somebody that you want to be intimate with, how are we ever going to have a good marriage?

Or let alone even find a way of sharing that with somebody that you want to be intimate with, how are we ever going to have a good marriage? Or let alone even find a partner. What if you've done this work and these people that we are meeting haven't? Some of them haven't. And you'll find out if you don't jump on Tinder and get in bed with them. But if you're with somebody for three or four weeks and you haven't had sex and you begin to just watch their behavior, this guy you're talking about where you said, I don't want to have sex, who pushed that. That would pretty much be strike three to me for pretty much anybody. Not respecting whatever place you were in for whatever reason is a pretty big red flag. Yeah, that's a damn red flag.

And on a damn first date? Yeah. You know? So you're looking to evaluate me, not to be evaluated by someone else. And I completely get people get horny. They get lonely. They have their own needs. They have their own childhood. You're looking to evaluate me, not to be evaluated by someone else. And I completely get people get horny. They get lonely. They have their own needs.

They have their own childhood. None of that's judgment. But if you're not able to hear me enough when I'm being vulnerable, I'm not going to see you again. If I have slept with you, that terrifies me. That's painful. That's abandonment fear. That can make me cry for a year. But if I haven't slept with you, I can say,

I don't want to see you again. That's not how we approach it. Please don't reject me doesn't get you the closeness you're looking for. You didn't feel, you set a boundary that wasn't respected and still isn't okay. And I think it's important that you can say that. I think it's important that we can all say that. What do you want, Monica? What do you want? I want a partner that challenges me. And I want- That's what we need. That's what we need. But what I want to get out of my way is the wanting the thing I can't have. That is a pattern.

And that is, it's a pattern and it's a defense mechanism. It's a way to occupy my brain yes and let myself off the hook because the risk is minimal exactly there's no real risk actually if you take a bunch of partners off the table just it's the same game yeah i'm doing the impossible going see it never works for me well we exactly we've seen so in this all these episodes later we're noticing way more like we come across as opposites, but it's all the same. It's all the same. And down deep, it's the same for all of us.

We're terrified of abandonment, terrified of engulfment too, losing ourselves. Yeah. I just, you know, this pattern, wanting something I couldn't have has led me to just a beautiful, profound place. It's worked out, which almost is to my detriment in some ways in these relationship categories, because I'm like, well, it did work out for me in this lane and my career lane or this or this. So it might work out for me here. Like I almost have a crutch to stand on in some ways, which I need to. Yeah. Good insight. Yeah. I need to get rid of that because they're not the same. This relationship thing. It's not the same journey. It's not the same purpose. I remember I was doing a group of, with like 30 people up in the mountains,

we did two straight days of therapy. But I remember this one woman who hadn't said very much finally started crying and said, I'm never falling in love with anyone's potential ever again. So I'm not sure, but I call it estrogen arrogance. If you think of us as a project, this guy's going to be great when I polish him. Right. Right?

You may be setting yourself up over and over and over again. Well, I don't think, I actually actually I don't think I have that. In fact, I think I have the opposite of that, which is another bad extreme where I want something perfect now. I don't want to fix a person. But I'm chasing the unavailable and saying I want something perfect now. Yes. I know this is working. No, no. It's interesting because another thing this this brilliant woman therapist said to me a million years ago was, you remember Groucho Marx, the comedian?

Yeah. And with the cigars and, you know, he said once I would never join a club that would have me as a member. Yeah. And she said, you have the Groucho. And I was just really upset with her. But I was going after narcissistic, unavailable people. And I'm going, how come nothing ever works out? Yeah, exactly.

And sometimes female commitment phobia is just chasing the unavailable or inappropriate guy and saying, you know, I just can't have a boyfriend. Yeah. Well, who are you choosing? Who's your picker choosing? Right. Why am I choosing? And if I'm literally deliberately choosing people I can't have, then that's the enemy.

Well, that's definitely for me a pattern for sure, because I've had a few circumstances where I've had, you know, I've entered into it like I normally do where there's just fancy, like a teacher or something, which I've had multiple crushes on teachers. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. And now I got you. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty cliche. I mean. No, it's not cliche, but it's not at all uncommon. Yeah. If you've had a father that might have, you know, felt in some way disconnected or that was not resolved, then, or sometimes if you have one that's too close. I know. But that's pretty common. Powers and aphrodisiac for women.

So therapists, lawyers, doctors, professors. Yeah. There is that feeling that comes out. Yeah. I definitely do have that. But there's been times where I've had crushes and fantasies and it's felt at a distance like it always does. And then something will happen where like I'll get to know them or something. And then it becomes a little more real or they start flirting back or something. And then it immediately turns to, oh no, you are

no longer attractive to me. If you think I'm attractive, you're not what I thought you were. You can't be attractive if you think I'm attractive. It's super self-loathing and bad, but it is similar to that club member thing. Yeah, it is similar to that. It also reminds me a little of maybe of it's not what you wanted. When someone responds that isn't in your fantasy, they're in a different movie. Right. They're in their movie. Exactly. So you're the hot little interesting thing that I've, you know, then all of a sudden

you go, eh. Yeah, you're ruining my movie. You're ruining my movie. Yeah. My movie is this authority figures just thinks I'm great. So maybe I want mentoring. I want a surrogate dad. I want to heal something that's left over from God knows what. But whatever it is, it's powerful. And when I drag you into my movie, it's kind of gross. It doesn't feel right. Yeah, it disrupts the fantasy. But it's not necessarily bad that you don't want that, that you shut that down. The mistake might be letting your picker go for the person that's the unavailable and inappropriate, which is, I think, really what it is. Yeah. That's in a sense, as smart as you are, that's a defense mechanism.

Yeah. Then it's their fault. Yeah, it's their fault. It's definitely their fault. It's definitely their fault. Okay. Well, Harry, moving forward now, what do you think? No, I'm totally hooked now. Let's just do another hour. I think I got a number now. Textbook? No, no, you're in a really good place. It's like- I feel like-

Yeah, there's some pieces that have kind of clicked together for you. My thinking is that you had those moments, those intermittent moments of recognizing that higher self, that bodhisattva, that part of you that's got a handle on wisdom. And that's what you should be doing. You should be back to meditating twice a day. You should be writing poetry, doing anything, both of you really, that takes you into you instead of looking to the outside for any kind of answer. Thank you. My sponsor used to say the first time you feel serenity you're going to think you're bored and my god he was actually sort of right as the drama kind of tapered off

i started to think what am i going to do with myself today yeah and then you kind of get to a place where you go i'm going to write that play. But then I usually watch Real World Road Rules Challenge. I'm watching the challenge. That's the next step, though. Maybe I had an idea I wanted to be loved by being an actor, but what if what I want to do is something different from that? That's a huge one for me. That was rooted more in what you touched with your father. What if I want to find some way of being more real, more present?

And that's what that is about. I don't know what that means professionally yet, but that's not important. It's figuring out right now what feels like, yes, I'm in that pocket. I know this is right. I can feel it. This is the place I wanna come from.

We can't avoid pain. I mean, we're all in different movies, so we screw up. And marriages can hurt and relationships can hurt, of course, but we can minimize that by just being a lot more centered in ourselves. What's our challenges? Okay, yeah, give us some challenges. Well, that actually was one in a sense, which is it's that idea of going in there and staying in there

and seeing where that takes you. You've touched on it already. That's what I meant about being in a good box. You kind of know that there's something you could write, and you've been avoiding that. And you kind of know that there's something you could write and you've been avoiding that. And you kind of know that there's a way of listening to yourself that you haven't been doing. But sometimes after trauma, after hitting bottom, you sort of sober up and start working a program and then you go back to acting out kind of thing. Well, I act out when I'm having fun.

Like when good things happen to me or when I'm happy, I want to go one step further. My sponsor said the only thing more dangerous to an alcoholic than failure is success. Yes. And I definitely am that guy. Success is so crippling for people sometimes. Wow.

It's difficult. It's really easy to envy from a distance, but it's phenomenal pressure. There's something you have wanted to do, thought about doing. You might have touched on it when you talked about this woman. But there's something you've thought about doing and you keep postponing, avoiding not doing. There's something right in front of you. And I don't know what it is because we haven't had enough time to find it.

But sometimes it's as simple as start playing guitar. Sometimes it's learning a language. But there's something on that bucket list that just internal, because you want it, that's something you want. Not about how you look. Not about whether someone's approving of you. There's something right there. And you probably just keep pushing it away and pushing it away. So by next week.

Meditate twice a day, even if it's 420 minutes or something, half an hour. And journal. And the journal can just be morning pages. All you're doing is just writing general thoughts. But what you're listening for is that little voice you articulated that's almost quiet, almost a whisper, that was satisfied, that said it was the right direction. You want to hone in on that. Sometimes you're actually touching pieces of your own childhood or yourself. Sometimes you're getting in touch with that 11-year-old boy, except you're telling him he's fine the way he is. Do you meditate for whatever amount, 20, 30 minutes,

and then write? And then just write. Okay. Because the goal is not to judge or make it commercial. The goal is to see what comes out when you kind of quiet your mind for a while, and then just write something down, see what it says. I just want to point you in because something important is happening. I like that. And then maybe when we resume that you can tell us if and when you were able to tap into that little voice and what it said. Right. My only fear is to feel like when I'm writing it because I have this thing, it's going to

be, I want it to be good. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. The goal is to make a quiet space and then see whatever comes out. And it doesn't really matter. The goal is to get the monkey mind, that chattering monkey in our heads out of the way so that you're just emotionally present. You do it when you're talking sometimes. And you do it when you're close to your emotions.

And I'm really interested in how that might link to why you cried for so long. when you're talking sometimes and you do it when you're close to your emotions, you know, and that, I'm really interested in how that might link to why you cried for so long. It does. I don't know exactly how, but I guarantee you

that not going there links to what, what a lot of that grief was about. I think those two things connect and that's as much as I want to give away. Oh,

I like it. Okay, my challenge. You're tougher. You stay hidden more than justice. Yeah, that's true. Very. I'm inclined to think the stuff we were talking about, about pursuing the unavailable and how you, the place that you got where you kind of see that it's an excuse of sorts.

You know, what do you actually want? You said, I want a partner who would challenge me. Yeah. And you don't pursue people who will become partners and challenge you. Because I get the other piece, this same wonderful woman therapist said that I was talking about everybody in the 70s sleeping around and saying we should be casual. And I'm like, I can't do that. I don't know why. It just does not.

And I thought she was going to tell me why I had all my sex hangups. I'm sitting, I can't do that. I don't know why, it just does not. And I thought she was gonna tell me why I had all my sex hangups. I'm sitting on my LA Rams shirt. And she said, I know, Harry, it's like using someone else's body to masturbate, isn't it? I completely understand why that has no appeal. Yeah, yeah. But why do I want something?

And then why have I designed a defense? Very intellectual, very smart defense, but it's a defense. The fantasy's safer. I control the fantasy. Yeah, exactly. Do you ever write the fantasies down? Have you ever made a list of men you fantasized about and looked for common threats? No. That's your assignment. Oh, boy. And a little bit of the same idea, like sitting quietly and then writing. Yeah. If you want to meditate, great. It doesn't hurt anybody.

It's been proven to change the brain over two or three years. It really works. But the point is to create a space where you get the thinking, the stuckness, and the patterns out of the way. And you just write down, like you said, in passing, you know, professors. That's not uncommon. But what is it I'm seeking? Because that's the little girl. Yeah. it I'm seeking? Because that's the little girl. What is she seeking? You know, and I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect one of the

reasons you keep repeating it is you're not listening to her. Or am I listening to her too much? I don't know. But my gut feeling is like the similar feeling, really my gut feeling is that if you hang in there, you might start to see that when you pay attention to that part of yourself, that deep, vulnerable part of yourself, and you're taking care of him or her, you're a lot more likely to choose someone else who would be kind. My question for you for her is technically where is she going to meet these people? She works 70 hours a week and she thinks that these people aren't around kind of thing. So. And I work with my best friends who I then just, yeah, we're all in a big blender together and I don't have to go searching for fulfillment. Yeah. And I wouldn't want to, I mean, it's a trite word to say workaholic, but it's it, I've definitely done that. And it gives you these long stretches of time where you almost don't know you have needs or that you're in pain.

It does. And when I was in my 20s, I went through a year and a half, I think, working really hard for a publishing company. And a friend of mine gave me a necklace that was like this cheesy gold necklace. It was pretty too large. Just said available and said, I just want you to wear that. You know, when you go out to industry things or something, of course I could not, would not do it. But I think it sort of made me realize I was walking around saying there are no pretty women in Los Angeles and there's a drunken fool.

Right. But I honest to God, didn't see anyone. Exactly. I was shut down. You, I think you asked earlier about sexually anorexic. I think I was, And I was shut down that it was there so that I didn't even have to battle with it. Yes. And if you're working 70 hours a week, you very well might be doing that. Is once it got down to the wire and I felt like, okay, here we are. I absolutely have to find somebody. There was a switch that got flipped that I think so many people are able to do all the time. This is how they operate through life, which is, okay, where are they? Something that was off was just immediately active.

That's a great catch. Yeah. Yes. And just, okay, who's it going to be? Who's cute? Who do I have energy with? And I'm never thinking those things. I never thought that way back then at all. I'm almost actively not thinking those things. I think it takes, that was a part of the idea for the challenge. I think it takes effort to suppress the sexuality, the need to belong, the wanting to open up. I think we actually do want those things all the time. And so most of our psychological constipation is about suppressing it. I work six-hour shifts at my restaurant, and all six hours, me and the girls are constantly walking by each other and telling everyone

what table and what position guy is hot. And I love him. I love 15 P three. I love 54 P five. It's funny, but it is that thing. Like I'm never not looking. You're always looking.

And in that way, it's a game. So it it's like it's a fun thing you do at work so everyone has that button pressed of eyes open not every tentacles well in in the game in the game version or in the challenge version the tentacles are out of like okay okay the feelers are out. Don't you like those tentacles a little? It was so foreign. I just, it felt so new and I did like it. I was like, oh, this is what people do. They go to a bar and they are looking. Yes. And I'm not. And it feels different. It's not bad that you look at it that way. Maybe it's just who you are. But you can't let yourself hide from everybody or yourself. Yeah.

And I think if you listen to that piece of you, maybe you'll get a little clearer about what you want. Yeah. Get those tentacles out. Tentacles. I love how smart you are. Now I'm going to have to listen to all your podcasts. Oh, yay. We want to see how this ends.

I know. Yeah, I how this ends. I know. Yeah, I want to know. I know. Somebody's going to have to let me know. We will. We'll keep you updated. All right. Well, Harry, thank you so much for coming.

Thank you. This was fantastic and helpful. And as Jess said, the relationships are just tied to us, to our own issues and our own everything. And I'm a great believer in monogamy, and I've had lots of arguments with my clients about it. And I'm a believer in marriage, but I'm really a believer in the fact that a big part of being together is to be challenged, taught something. When I divorced the first time, I wasn't sure I would remarry because it's so painful to

divorce. And then I saw that my friends that were out partying or just avoiding commitments and so on seemed to be stuck. They had their feet in cement. They never grew emotionally. And I thought, I don't want that. I'd rather just try to choose more wisely, which I fortunately did so that I keep learning something. And hopefully I'm beneficial to my wife and she learned something too. Thank you so much. Thank you, Harry. Thank you. Thank you for asking me.