Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Part 7: Monica & Jess Love Goblins with Esther Perel

Episode Date: March 25, 2020

In Part 7: Monica & Jess Love Goblins with Esther Perel, M and J are thrilled to welcome psychotherapist, Esther Perel to the attic. Esther makes the distinction between love and desire and she reminds them that having a lot of sex with many partners is equivalent to avoiding sex- both are methods to avoid rejection. Esther encourages Monica to let go of the goblin on her shoulder and she removes the phrase "losing feelings for" from the relationship vocabulary. The three talk about "want" vs. "should" and Esther is intrigued by Jess's interactions with "out of my league guy". Esther does exercises with M and J on how to spark desire and she gently tells them if they don't let go of their narratives, regardless of who they date, they will always be dating their narrative. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Monica, aka Miniature Mouse. I love boys. But I don't have one. And in fact, I've never had one. I could probably count on two hands how many dates I've been on in my entire life, and I decided it's time to change that. decided, it's time to change that. Hi, I'm Jess, and I love boys too. And in the opposite way of Monica, I can't count on all the hands in America how many people I've had sex with. And yet, I still don't have a boyfriend. And I want one. And I'm Dax, and I love Monica and Jess in so many ways. They don't have partners. And that is a huge mystery to me because they're both incredibly attractive, so fun, so smart, and have so much to offer. So what we decided to do is examine these unhealthy patterns and bring in experts and outsiders to help critique us, advise us, guide us, pretty much call bullshit on us so that we can find the romantic companion that we're looking for. We started this thinking it was gonna be just cute,

little dating challenges that we would go on and talk about and laugh about. Turns out it is very hard to be vulnerable in real time in public. Yes, I'm so excited! You are so lying. We romanticize pathological love. One to 10, how much do you want love?

Go, you can't even get the sentence out. I would just eat around it. It's a little selfish. Why do I want something and then why have I designed a defense? We must put the chum in the water for the sharks to come, buddy. Monica's like, so apparently I have to join Raya this week. He likes fucking.

You don't even have a kiss, a handhold, anything. Your frontal lobe is just in the way. Push-up bra, low-cut top. That's what you should be doing. I masturbate every night. Rob's too uncomfortable for this. Please enjoy part seven, Monica and Jess Love Goblins with Esther Perel. We are supported by Policy Genius. If there's one thing humans aren't great at, it's predicting the future. Just take a look around. No amount of crystal balls, fortune cookies, or tea leaves could predict what the world we're living in right now. But unpredictability is also what keeps life interesting. The trick is to enjoy the ride

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mix and match to find you savings. So if you haven't found a play-by-play breakdown of your future inside a crystal ball or cookie, that's okay. Protect the things you've worked hard for and get home insurance with Policy Genius. In just a few minutes, you can find your best price and apply at policygenius.com. Policy Genius. We'll always get the future wrong. Better get home insurance right. Those boys, Monica and Jess, you know they don't like boys.

They love boys. Welcome to part seven of Monica and Jess Love Boys. We're nearing the end. I'm sad a little. Well, we're nearing the end of this. That doesn't mean we're near the end of our growth. That's true. Okay, Jess, so your challenge from last week.

Sam works out at my gym and I've known him for five years. And Patty, the millionaire matchmaker. We challenged the idea of out of your league and what that meant. And I thought that this person was out of my league. Through discussion, she told me to ask him out. And I said, there's no way. And I asked him to dinner and he said yes. And we had an amazing time.

It was very, very fun. And my insecurity thinks that he didn't think it was a date because I've known him for five years. And I didn't think it was not a date. But the conversation went from fun to serious to fun. There was no lapses. He's on a very big diet. Halfway through, he goes, I'm having so much fun. I'm going to have a drink. And I go, awesome. Let's have a drink. And the date lasted two hours, quote unquote date. And we left and we hugged and I left. And I thought, I don't think anyone really is out of my league is what I took out of it. And I don't think anyone really is out of my league,

is what I took out of it, and I don't think he thought it was a date. Yeah, you called me after, and these are the words you used. Friends zoned, he didn't think it was a date. I've known him for five years, and since then, we've gone to breakfast and played Settlers of Catan with other friends. He loves this podcast. We talk about it a lot now that this is in live time. And I think he admires me. And I think he thinks I'm funny and a great communicator.

And he loves how open I am and how vulnerable. And I don't think he's attracted to me. And I've dated enough guys and have enough sex to think that I think I have a good radar on that. And this is where me and Monica have a little bit- Disagree. And I get a little defensive. On what? You said there is no the one, it's the one you pick. I love that you said that. And I think in a straight relationship, in heteronormative things, when it's time for kids and it's time

for marriage, I think that, I'm not saying all straight people, they make choices that are less to do with a physical attraction. And I don't have that as much and I don't see that as much in the gay community. And I think I would know if Sam was attracted to me. I think he would flirt with me. I think I would know what that feels like. Unless he actually is more taken with you and he feels more vulnerable and therefore his attraction to you is a little bit more fraught and therefore he's holding back i think that it is much easier for many gay men to be out there with their attractions and their excitements when the

emotional investment is very low. And when it gets higher, it becomes a little more scary. You start to experience the fear of rejection, etc., etc., and then you wait. So I don't know that I would say he's not attracted. I have no clue. But I may say that if he likes you, being attracted to you may be slightly more scary. And I would say vice versa from you. But because you've repeated three times how it's very clear to him that this was not a date.

Like, why do you need to emphasize so much the frame? Because it shapes the expectations. That way we know exactly what this is supposed to be and we don't have to mix the metaphors. And, you know, it was what it was. You had an enjoyable time. You spent time together. You've seen each other again. And who knows?

I don't know anything about this man. But certainly for you, that in itself is already special, unusual for where you've been lately. It did feel special and it felt fun even last night with four of us playing games. There is a way I act around him that makes him laugh that I enjoy and I feel like I am myself around him when on other dates or other experiences I have put on an act or I've changed who I am. Yeah, it felt good being myself, regardless of the end result, I guess. I would say especially because of the end result. Not regardless of, especially because the end result is not the end.

It actually is evolving. You're seeing him again. You play with him. You meet him for breakfast. You're slowly weaving something, however thin a thread it is. So it wasn't just a hookup or whatever you call them. We still call them that. I never know if the vocabulary changes so fast.

Well, our listeners can now hear your wonderful voice. We have our guest, Esther Perel, on today. We don't know what to do. We're over the moon. We have our guest, Esther Perel, on today. We're just, we don't know what to do. We're over the moon. We're so excited. Yeah, so thank you so much for being here. It's a treat to be back. So my challenge was, given by Patti, the millionaire matchmaker, was to dress provocatively on a date, on a second date.

And she wanted it to be with the trainer who was the date that Jess set me up, our arranged marriage dates. And we have been texting and it seemed like, okay, this makes sense for me to go on a second date with him. So great. And what was interesting is this person is the only person of the guys I've gone out with through this experience that knows about this experience. And I have to say, I felt so relieved by that, by the fact that he knew. And I told him, I said, hey, so my challenge this week is to dress provocatively. So just prepare to have your mind blown. And he laughed and he said, okay, great. And so we were

going to go out. And then I rescheduled because that's what I do. And then I went out of town for eight days or something. Can I ask you something? Yes. You reschedule in order to what? It is what you do for what? It's just because I hold this dread over all of these things. I mean, really, I think it's just like I have this fear of rejection ultimately. So it's this dread of that. And rescheduling is just a delay. It's just like, give me another day where I don't have to experience that. So I do it a lot.

We joke that it's my thing. But, you know, the interesting thing is I'm not sure that his thing is any different from yours. He does it his own way. You can avoid being with people in order not to be rejected or you can have a certain way of being with people and consume them in full amounts and you swallow and then you spit

and you actually are also dealing with the fear of rejection but I just know that it may look different but that doesn't mean that you are dealing with a different 100 fear I think you're right and I think that's a lot of people's fear right like just fear of rejection is really common I think that's what's happening when I'm like I'll do that tomorrow instead. Or I'll just like push it to its limit. But the rescheduling in this case was a little bit of that, as it always is. But also there was a real reason.

We were launching this podcast the next morning. And I felt that I needed to be like present that night in case things were going to come up. What do you know about this fear for you? The fear of rejection? night in case things were going to come up. What do you know about this fear for you? The fear of rejection? So I grew up an Indian girl in Georgia, and I felt that no one was attracted to me that I wanted reciprocation from. I mean, that was confirmed a few times early on in my life. And then I just let every other experience like fall into that narrative. And I know that's where a lot of that comes from is just this, I felt like there was nothing I

could do about that. You know, it was my, the color of my skin, it's my external. And so there was rejection early on. And I felt like I don't want to experience that ever again. And so I kind of turned some switches off because of that. And this is meant to turn some of those back on again. And it was the same if it was men from any type of backgrounds? Or was it actually, was it even from the men? Or was it also from the girlfriends and the women and the girls that you

used to hang out with that experience that people from other backgrounds that minority members have about attraction and how it measures up with the standard of beauty in a dominant society and how one internalizes the rejection or the look as not being desirable,

not being attractive. It's a familiar story. And it's sometimes it's the men or the boys that you wanted them to look at you. But sometimes it's also the girls that you were hanging with. I'm being completely just curious. Yeah. Well, probably both. It was the wanting to be so American. By the way, I was really American. My mom grew up in Georgia, too. She's Indian, but they moved when she was six. So she also grew up in Georgia. It wasn't like my house was very cultural at all. It was very Americanized. But I still felt so I just felt like it felt different. I felt like my skin was giving me away. And it was betraying me. It was like saying I was different when I didn't want to be or I felt like I'm not I'm just like all these people. But yeah. And have you learned to accept it? To even cherish it? Have you learned to not feel anymore that the moment you walk in, you have no choice over who you are except the projection and the negative prejudice that people have about you because of it?

Yeah, I think I'm... It pains me just listening, you know? I know. If someone else was telling this story to me, I would feel the same way. Yeah. I mean, it was a lot of that. And as you said, I hung out. And I was very well liked.

I had a lot of friends. And I was on the cheerleading. It has nothing to do with that. Clearly. It has nothing to do. That's the sad part of it. And for all, did people even know you felt this way? No. See, that's the thing.

It's a it's a it's a secret pain that you carry and if you told them they wouldn't know what you're talking about and if i was able to articulate it i wouldn't have because that would be even more proof to the fact that there was some separation i know i think about that all the time now that we're doing this podcast and we're talking so openly about all of this stuff. I mean, of course, all my best friends who are still my best friends from that time. I always think like they must be listening to this and think like, what? We had the best time and we did have the best time.

But I was always sort of holding this. My question to both of you would be just as a star is like, what have you learned in those six episodes about yourself? Actually, less interested in what you tried per se as to what you learned about yourself through the trying. Where are you at now? I've slowed down. You know, we went out to dinner last night and she goes, do you think that waiter's hot? And I go, I didn't even look at him. Which never, I mean, Jess's catchphrase is, I love him. He says it about anyone that's walking

by and the waiter came up and I noticed, I was like, he's attractive. And I was waiting for Jess to say it and he didn't and he didn't and he didn't. And so I asked him, I said, do you love him? And he was like, oh, I didn't even notice. I didn't even notice him. And instead, what was I doing instead? I was watching her eyes and listening to Monica about her story. And I was in the moment. Right.

I've slowed down a lot through this experience. And I think it's this podcast plus my dad dying has made me be a little bit more appreciative. And I mean, it might be trite but that i'm enough you know that like whatever is going on or how i feel is going to be enough i think my energy in my 30s and even maybe a year ago was this it was just like i need i want i want i'm gonna i'm gonna have sex i want to do this i'm gonna they don't like me desperation over over texting getting a perfect body you know it's been a wild ride did your father recognize you yes he's always recognized me i get my open-mindedness from him he's just a very transparent great communicator and was in love with me from the moment I was born

and never didn't tell me and didn't bat an eye when I was gay. And he was... It's okay. He's with you. And you're with him at this moment. I had a table two days ago, and she came in, I'm a waiter, and she had a beanie on and she goes, this is my last day of chemo.

And I just cried with her at the table and just like your light is so huge. And we just had a moment and then I had to go into the bathroom. I haven't cried in a while over this. It's interesting how it comes. First of all, it doesn't even have to be commented on. If you were telling a story right now where you were laughing, you wouldn't be explaining why you're laughing. True.

It's an amazing thing how when we grieve and we remember and we're sad and the tears accompany the sadness, which is completely normal, we suddenly feel like we need to explain. You have nothing to explain, you know? And at the same time, I was thinking, where did this hunger of yours come from? This sense that every person, everything that moves

should be recognizing you so that you know you matter, you exist, you're important, you're desirable. If you know. Growing up different, feeling that there was this underlining thing that I was different, that I had to make everything else great. I had to prove myself that I was funny and smart and a good basketball player and straight A's. And my parents got a divorce at four, so I wanted to make my mom happy. And then I would live with my dad and then I would live with my mom. And then I was this. And then I lost my virginity at 30.

So I had so much to make up for all these things and these feelings that people had when they were 16 and 17, 18. I had to make up for all of it. And I was having sex constantly and I needed approval. And I wanted people to like me for my looks and not my personality. Because they had done the opposite for so long. Correct. Don't you find it interesting that you mentioned I lost my virginity as a way to highlight the most important or a very important developmental stage in your sexual story? And we name it by what you lost?

I find that a very interesting statement. Do you see other developmental stages by what you lost? I find that a very interesting statement. Do you see other developmental stages by what I lost? Or do we typically say what I gained, what I discovered, what I acquired? I acquired some penises. Oh, God. What made you wait so long?

Fear. I didn't feel ready. I didn't know what gay sex was. I didn't know what douching was. I didn't know any of these things that the gay community did. I was terrified. Have you loved? Yes.

I have had three boyfriends. I feel like I loved two of them. And we talk about the last one, Greg, a lot because we lived together and we shared a dog and I felt so normal. And with that breakup, I talk about this a lot too, is I cried for over a year. You both felt loved and lovable, but you both struggled to feel desirable. And you struggled with your desires. That's not the same. Yeah, exactly.

That's actually a really interesting distinction. That is exactly true. I would have said that I didn't feel lovable, but I think you're right. I did feel lovable because I had many friends, a good relationship with my parents. And yeah, so I think you're right. Yeah, so I think you're right Monica and Jess Love Boys is supported by Daya Jess is unavailable right now So I have another friend stepping in today Hello, and I love Daya

Zach Shepard who loves Daya Do you like surprises? Yeah, like presents? Yeah Oh, I love them You've given me a lot of great surprises It's the best Oh, they're the best.

The experience you had when I gave you a gift is just like the one I had when the people at Daiya sent me their new and improved plant-based frozen pizza. I was not prepared. Girl, I was with you and I wasn't prepared either. They're so good. We ate the hell out of those Daiya pizzas. I must have had one and a half pizzas in one sitting. They sent me the meatless supreme pizza and I loved it.

Which one did you like? I liked the thin crust. That thin crust blew my mind. It has this Daiya mozzarella style shreds, which they sprinkle on top and they melt so perfectly. It's so good. No dairy, no meat, no soy, no gluten. It's frozen.

It's so easy to make. It's no wonder that Daiya is the number one plant-based pizza. When I want to eat plant-based, good options can be really limited, especially when it comes to pizza. But now not only can I enjoy one of my favorite meals completely plant-based, but the taste is outstanding. All around better than I expected. Try one and see for yourself. And for fans of our show, Daya is going to hook you up with a free plant-based frozen pizza. Just visit dayafoods.com slash monica for a free pizza coupon while supplies last. That's d-a-i-y-a foods dot com slash monica. This is interesting that you brought up that word because my therapist, I saw my therapist this morning, and I was telling her about last week's challenge. So I ended up having to go to the bar by myself last night in my outfit because of a series of events that did not lead me to be able to go on the second date. And it was the day before, and I was like, got to do something.

So I put on my outfit, and I went to to the bar and I had a drink by myself there. And my therapist today said, agree or disagree with Patty, whatever you take from that. The goal there, which I do agree with, is you allowing yourself to be the object of desire. Because I think you've taken that off the table for a long time and I think she's right and I think you're right I think this is about not feeling desirable but also one way to define desire is to own the wanting it's actually not just about being wanted desirable but about owning the wanting and when you go in that outfit yeah the issue is not can i attract someone the issue is how do i attract myself first of all does this sit inside of me as I own this? I bring this with me and not I need your validation in order to know it exists. Yeah, exactly.

Which you also have in common in that sense. So it's really more, do I live with the sense that I can own my desires? That if I want someone, it won't be thwarted necessarily. In and of itself, I can say, I want this person, I want you, and trust that I am wantable in return, and that you may or may not want me, but it's not going to make me then think that I am not desirable. The reaction. The reaction. Yeah. It's one thing to say the other person wasn't interested in me. They're not attracted, they're not turned on, they're not desiring of me. But it's not the same as turning that into therefore I am undesirable.

I know that seems to be linked. Okay, that's given a tremendous amount of power to the outside. I know. I feel like we both do that. I have, over time, gotten kind of exhausted by that. And I think I just sort of threw my hands up and just thought subconsciously, I'm going to shut that off so that I don't have to deal with this. I don't have to deal with feeling unwanted or feeling like no matter what I do, the person I want isn't going to want it or like me. And so eventually it was like, I'm just not dealing with that. And I'm just going to be me out in the world. Since I've done that,

I feel good. Like I feel confident in my day to day. I feel happy. But I do recognize I'm missing this huge component and this big part of life that I want. I've almost traded one in for the other. The first thing is to actually be able to admit that you want it. Yeah. You know, and to own it. Just say, I want to feel confident. I don't want to be constantly measuring myself and all of that. But I would like to have a different kind of relationship in my life.

I have the friends. I have close friendships. I have close relationships. I have close friendships. I have close relationships. I have my family. But I would love to have that other, more intimate, loving, you know, whichever level of loving, by the way. It doesn't mean marriage, children. It's like, it's just I want to feel my heart, you know.

Can you think you want it, though, when you really don't? No. See, if you think I should want it. Like, my question will always be, do you want it or do you think you really don't? No. See, if you think I should want it, like my question will always be, do you want it or do you think you should want it? Do you really miss it? When you talk about your father, I don't have to ask you if you think you should miss your father. I see you missing your father. You long for him. Your heart goes out. You remember him. You see him right now as you're talking to me. If you tell me, I think I want a boyfriend,

what I do know is that you've had a very painful heartbreak, that you cried for a year, and that some of that heartbreak often lingers inside of us. So that when you say, I don't want this, I will not just take it as a given. I wouldn't take it as a given with Monica. I would say to you, tell me more. Is it really because at this moment you have no interest? Well, I'm actually asking for her more because she hasn't had a relationship. So she wants something that she doesn't know she had. That's why I know I want it. I know that there's a peace not in place. And again, I agree with you. I'm not saying I want to get married. I want to have children. I don't know if I want either of those things, to be honest. But I would like to know love. Yes. And it's a scary thing to say for anybody. Just so you understand, regardless of your particular history or story,

it's a scary thing to say because when I say that, I open myself up to the world and it feels like, ooh, it's vulnerable. It's scary. It's like I'm naked out there with a different kind of nakedness. It's an emotional nakedness. I would like to know love. That's it. And there is no age for this. And there is no size for this. And there is no race for this. This is a human wish. Yeah. You know, the thought that just came up for me was

that I can imagine Monica experiencing around love what you felt around sex. You were 30 years old, and you probably asked yourself all the time what's wrong with me i haven't known it i'm not normal this is and she's experiencing the same thing around love she's had i assume you've had sexual experiences and but there is that other thing she says what's with me how come i'm whatever age i am wherever i am in my life i've never known that how come what does it say about me? I want to feel, you know, and we use the word normal as in to say, I want to have had access to that experience that I think all other people have that should be part of my life. You did it around sex and she did it around love.

Right. And I sometimes do feel, am I incapable of it? There's also a fear connected to that of what if I'm not capable of giving myself in that way or accepting it from somebody else or I don't know. I think it's an absolutely normal fear to have when you haven't had the experience. Part of the, am I normal is, and if I haven't had the experience yeah part of the am i normal is and if i haven't had it then maybe i'm not right maybe there's something about me yeah you know and you can ask it around sex and you can ask it around love but the the issue about you know wanting to attribute this to you now what every challenge has really tried to make you do at this point is deal with a piece of the obstacle.

Yeah. Right? What stands in the way? And how do you set yourself up in situations that may be more conducive? You know? And I'm curious, which one do you think has been most helpful so far? Which one has yielded the most information for you? Having to give someone my phone number in person definitely had to start looking actively. My eyes were truly open in a new way where I was like, okay, who's it going to be?

Who's the person going to be that I'm attracted enough to to give my phone number to? I never tell myself that out in the world. I'm never out at a bar and like, huh, I wonder if there's anyone I could give my phone number to. I'm never thinking that. But I had to start thinking like that for this challenge. And that was pretty enlightening to see basically just how many people I'm missing in life. That's one of the bigger takeaways I've gotten. So what you know is that you've been for quite a few years now, primarily organized in what you don't want. And you've organized your whole

your whole being in this domain around protection. Yes. Making sure you don't get hurt, making sure you don't get refused, making sure you don't get refused, making sure you don't, don't, don't. And that the most important challenges will be the ones that are not about what I don't want, but what I want. A wish, a dream is an aspiration for something that you want. It's never for something that you don't want. It's a good linguistic distinction. And in the realm of desire, that's ever, ever more so. I have this workshop online, it's called Rekindling Desire, where I am continuously playing with this definition that desire is to own the wanting. It is a claim. It says,

I want. That is the word desire. But you are so busy with, you know, being wanted or not being wanted that I don't know that you even know what you want. You've been completely organized in the other direction. So I'm thinking all the time of what are the multiple ways that you can make statements about what is it I want. Not what I should. Yeah. Not what I should want.

Not what people expect from me. Not what is safe. But actually what is bold, what is daring, what is aspirational, what really expresses a wish. And giving your phone number included that. It's an active verb. That's true. Now, that said, in the realm of desire, you will find that some people have an active desire. They are the initiators. They are the strivers.

And some people have a receptive desire or what is called responsive desire. It doesn't just suddenly live inside of them and ignite itself on its own. It is responsive to a situation and to a circumstance. But when you go on a date or when you go and you just even live in a situation where suddenly somebody catches your attention, you are so busy focusing on your fears that you're having a relationship with this little thing that sits on top of your shoulder that says, be careful, don't, watch out, you don't know,

you don't even know, do that, you know. And say to this one, you've been really nice to me, protector of mine, you've been so sweet. For 32 years, you've made sure. But, you know, I think I'm okay. I don't need you in this way. And this one is going to convince you. No, no, no.

You need me badly. You need me bad. You don't know how dangerous and cruel the world can be. You're going to give all this power to people the moment you love. You give power to others and they can hurt you. And this is part of love. Yes, it is. Love doesn't come without loss and doesn't come without fear, but it comes with a lot of other things too. You know, I would want you to invite another one to

sit on the other side. You need that other one that just has a dialogue here and says, would you please be quiet for a moment and just turn off this volume. Let me even be here and enjoy the situation. See what happens. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. You mentioned aggressive. She is so aggressive at work.

She gets stuff done. You know, she is this powerful thing when it comes to success. So how can we take that same energy? Yeah. It's a fascinating thing so first of all i want to play with the word aggressive because it can so instantly be missing a misunderstood so oh i like the i like it when it connects to the word agir in french or in latin which is actually to act ah okay meaning to strive to initiate have a drive, in that sense aggressive.

And it's not uncommon for people to have an ample amount of that energy in many areas of their life and to tread thin in the romantic or intimate sphere of their life. It's just, you know, even people who have solid friendships, so it's not like they don't think that they, that's why i really want to separate the loved and desired yeah and why you know i could have had a whole thing about rekindling intimacy but the interesting thing was that i noticed that i was working with people who have intimacy you have intimate friendships yeah the the piece that is challenging for you is not

that it is the erotic sensual sexual desire part it is yeah and once we have separated those and of course they're interdependent but we really name it for what it is it then it's not i'm afraid of closeness you're not yeah i'm afraid of intimacy you're not I'm afraid of closeness. You're not. Yeah, exactly. I'm afraid of intimacy. You're not. I'm afraid of commitment. You're not. Neither are you. You have solid friends.

See, it's very easy to want to say you people have fear of commitment, fear of intimacy. No, you have all of these things. What you may not have is the integration of the sexuality and the intimacy, of the love and the desire, of the sensuality and the closeness.

It's that. Yeah. And I think before I give challenges, I first want to really be sure that I have the right definition of what's at stake. Otherwise. What's the point? No, they'll be interesting, but it's not sure that it hits the spot. Right. Right.

How do you break someone's patterns of their story about themselves? You know, I tell myself, my narratives are so thick. Give me a few. All three of my boyfriends broke up with me because they lost interest in me physically. And the people that I want to date and like and are attracted to aren't attracted to my looks. The boyfriends have broke up with me because they lost feelings. And the guys that I like aren't attracted to aren't attracted to my looks. The boyfriends have broke up with me because they lost feelings, and the guys that I like aren't attracted to me. And I've said that over.

Okay. I'm sick of myself. So help me understand it a little bit more, right? Pick one of the boyfriends, the one that's most significant for this conversation. The last one. Okay. And what happened?

Our relationship was at a 9-10. Never went down. It was a high. He moved in. It was sex often. It was holding hands in public. It was meeting the parents. It was sharing the dog. It was so fun. At two or three months before he broke up with me. How long were you together? We were together, I think, 11 months. Then we got back together for three months before he broke up with me. How long were you together? We were together, I think, 11 months. Then we got back together for three months. So maybe 15. Two or three months before we broke up,

he broke up with me. He looked at me and goes, I'm losing feelings for you. And my heart dropped. And, you know, Dak says, that's the day I should have said, great, I appreciate your honesty. I'm going to go work on myself

and maybe we'll, you know, we can reconvene some other time. But instead, I got closer and needier and I bought him a bike. I went to my boyfriend for my boyfriend problems. It was not a good move. And then that lasted another three months because I think he felt bad. And then we broke up in September. I'm losing feelings. What did that mean?

Looking back, I think it meant life settled down. It started becoming where life should sit at a six or seven feelings wise. And it was becoming a little routine. And he was 13 years younger than me. And I was his first love. So he felt what probably normal people feel. And I think how it manifested for him is he wasn't as attracted to me and he wanted to go have an open relationship or have someone else come in for a threesome. And that hurt my feelings.

How old was he? I was 38 and he was 25. Okay. So that statement. First of all, I'm losing feelings. No, you're not losing feelings. You may still have the same depth of feelings, but you may not be as instantly ready to jump the person

and feel like you can't resist and the minute they're in front of you, you have to tear their clothes off. It's that. And I think what first happened here is a complete misinterpretation of what was happening. So he misinterpreted it and then you misinterpreted it too. You know, the intensity shifts and if you want to maintain that interest, it needs to be cultivated.

You cultivate desire. It's not just some endless source that just springs out like that in the most unanticipated spontaneous way you know he wanted it to be super spontaneous and i tend to think in a long-term relationship whatever is going to just happen already has right and he wanted it to just happen i should just be in front of it and if it doesn't just then it means that i don't love you anymore and this is so puerile this is really very very young as a way of thinking okay i was ready for more i wanted because he moved in and i thought this is we're going to make this if any of these patches or low points in our relationship we're going to fix it right it's not even low i didn't think it was

low either he felt this and i wanted to say this is just normal because i have had a relationship before but you gotta touch the stove and see it's hot but then you took that and instead of keeping it with he's really young still i'm his first he has a sense of what one should be feeling and if you're not feeling that in the moment then something must be missing etc etc you know and it's this whole thing and what happens then is that you personalized it then you made it not about him but about you that's the sad piece here is that it may have had very little to do with you i mean you're important but not that important sorry yeah we all are we all think it had it wasn't about you but because it played into a story that you had about yourself if i was really attractive

then he would have continued to be irresistibly drawn to me at all times without the passage of time having any significance and that's too bad bad because it didn't belong to you. And so now the question becomes, you know it. I don't think I'm the first person to say it to you. But how do you believe it? Yes, yes, yes, totally. Actually, yes, you know. How do you believe it exactly?

How do you believe it? How do we believe it exactly? How do you believe it? How do we believe these things? We are supported by Helix Sleep. I love my Helix mattress. You won't shut up about it. It is so comfortable. It's customized to me because I like a medium firmness. I don't like it too soft or too firm. I like medium. And I sleep on my side. Some people sleep on their stomach. Some people sleep on their back.

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give you a refund super easy. Go check it out for yourself. Go to helixsleep.com slash monica. Take their two-minute sleep quiz and they'll match you to a mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. And right now, Helix is offering up to $200 off all mattress orders for our listeners at helixsleep.com slash Monica. Let me try something with you. Okay. I'm going to ask this to both of you. It's actually an exercise in rekindling desire too.

I am most drawn to my partner or partners when, not just I'm most drawn to my partner or partners when? Not just I'm most attracted sexually, but I am most drawn to my partner when? What would you say? I'm most drawn to my partner when he, she, they, whatever. Go. Just shoot a bunch. When I admire them and I respect them and I want to be more like them. And when they touch me.

Any particular way? Grab my hair or grab my knee or, you know, wrestle with my shoulders or be physical. It doesn't have to be sexual as much, but just I see you and I'm going to grab you. And I love that. And they ground me. Yes. The knee, the shoulder, the neck. It's the bony handles.

When they ground me, they anchor me with their touch. I am most drawn to my partner when? Definitely when they're doing something I can't. And that I look up to, that I admire, that I am intrigued by. I think that I admire, but also, to be honest, just generally, if it's something I can't do, I am drawn to that. I'm drawn to touch, but nurturing touch. Feeling safe. And given to. Yeah maybe I mean there's also some like really like I'm drawn to

humor maybe first and foremost perfect I'm drawn to my partner when I admire them when they do something that I can't do when they touch me when I feel't do. When they touch me. When I feel seen by them. When they ground me. When they make me laugh. You've got the main ones, by the way. It's not like there's a test here. When they make me see the world differently. When they challenge.

When they challenge me. This question to me, I've taken it to 20-something countries around the world. It's a fascinating question because it is remarkably similar everywhere. There's only one answer that is gender specific and that's when she says

I'm drawn to him when he plays with the kids. I have yet to hear that in the other direction. But the number one is I'm drawn to my partner when I admire them, when I look up to them, when they are on stage, at the piano, on the horse, doing something that they are confident about, whatever it is, and they are radiant. Yep. Okay? This is the number one turn on.

It is. It's confidence. And that has very little to do i've i mean i go thousands and thousands of people and nobody's giving me body parts i wanted to but i didn't go ahead i like big noses and i like lots of hair correct but you may be with somebody who has the hair and the big noses and if you're not drawn to them in that moment, none of that will matter. That's the important piece. Arousal and desire is not the same.

Right. But I just wanted everyone to know I like body parts. Lovely. Many of us do. But the interesting piece is that when I ask about drawn to, people somehow know the distinction that even when the body parts are there,

if they're not drawn to the person. Yep. True. Right? For men too, right? Everybody. Confidence is the number one. Number two has to do with surprise.

When I see the world from a different angle, when I'm challenged, when you do something I can't do, when you take me to a different place in my mind or with my senses, it's the surprise. It's the unknown. It's the active engagement with the unknown. Number three is often when we've been apart. It's everything that has to do with how absence and longing fuel desire. Interesting. And number four often has to do with jealousy and when I see my partner to the gaze of others.

Oh, yeah. And I'm not just looking at my boyfriend, my girlfriend, my hubby, my partner, the gaze of others. Oh, yeah. And I'm not just looking at my boyfriend, my girlfriend, my hubby, my partner, my lover, but I see them as a person in their own erotic autonomy. And pretty much across the globe, I hear the same thing. And the reason I'm saying this is because what it says to me is to suggest a theory of desire in which I want you more so when you actually are in your own element, when you are rather self-sufficient, when you are in your bubble, when you are doing that thing that I can't do.

At that moment, you don't need me. Oh, wow. And if you don't need me, I am not saddled with a certain type of emotional responsibility toward you, which gives me then the freedom to want you. It's amazing. Wow. If the partner, if somebody needs you, you will take care of them. You will respond with love, with care, with worry, with, you know, responsibility. But that's not the same as desire. take care of them you will respond with love with care with worry with you know responsibility but that's not the same as desire desire it needs to live in a space that is a lot more free

and unselfconscious and free from the burdens of caretaking and once i began to look at it like that i understood that there are a few terms that need to be defined love Love is one, desire is another. They relate, love and desire, they relate but they also conflict. And herein lies the mystery of eroticism. That's number one. Number two, desire and turn on or arousal are not the same. Some people start from a place of desire. I'm drawn to you, I'm interested in you, I want to be with you. And then comes the arousal. Some people start with the arousal. I'm turned down. I see I'm in the club. I'm in the bar. I'm on the, you know, and then may or may not follow the desire. A lot of people who have responsive desire don't start because they're in the mood. They start because somebody else is in the mood who is seducing them and talking them into it in a nice way that makes them be willing to engage and we call it willingness right from the place of let

me see i'm not into it right now but i'm open right and that's going to be part of what you will have to do is instead of having the 10 messages in your head that say why not there needs to be another voice that just simply says maybe I'm willing because you're no longer the little girl in Georgia that needs to continuously be protected and make sure that she never wants anything because that way she will never be disappointed right and then the other thing is that when when you see that other person and this is for the sustaining of it and this is what your third boyfriend there didn't have, is that when I see this person in their element,

doing the thing that they're good at, interested in, in their passion, you know, that's it. It's a way of continuing to see someone that you think you already know as still momentarily somewhat elusive and somewhat mysterious. That's what draws you to them. Because the question is, how do you maintain desire over time? Momentarily somewhat elusive and somewhat mysterious. That's what draws you to them. Because the question is how do you maintain desire over time? What is this élan, this movement that makes me want you? Is the fact that I never have you.

And I never have you and I know it ever more so when you're in your own space doing your own thing. And that's where you, with your focus on the body, you cut yourself short. You really, in a way, are trapped in thinking, and then you're going to have major issues when you start losing your hair. I'm on Propecia. I'll lose boners, but I won't lose hair. You're too much thinking that it's the physicality. You can be in front of someone who is massively

attractive to you if you don't have the desire if you shut down nothing will happen it's not what the other person is as much as what you allow yourself to see you are who you love not who loves you no it's both end you love yourself more when loves you? No, it's both ends. You love yourself more when you are loved by others. People feed us, people nurture us. That's exactly why you both love the touch. We are held by others. We are held up by others.

And sometimes when we collapse, we need the hands of others to pick us up just underneath so we don't hit the floor. Such is the beauty of the relationships we're in, friends and lovers. No, it's not just it's mine, but it's the degree of dependence. If your experience of validation is so intense that it fully resides on the other side, then when you don't get it, you collapse. You need some of yours that blends in with what you get from others. Right. And vice versa. I have a lot of friends who've been in relationships forever. They're married. And I think it's interesting. And I think the distinction is really good because I think the instinct is to say,

he doesn't love me anymore. Or maybe even them thinking that, like, oh, I don't know if I love her anymore when really it's the desire is what's fading out and that needs to maybe be relinked or something like that. Well, it needs to be fed. It needs to be fed, fueled, recultivated, rekindled, whichever verb you want to use. Desire is not just something that sits there,

stays as an independent source of energy that you just tap into at all times right people continue to love each other you know when i did rekindling desire which was the now that you've read mating in captivity the book what do you do yes how does one maintain this thing right because both of you are saying i want to be in a relationship. And a lot of people are in a relationship and they say, how do I maintain the intensity, the desire, the aliveness in my relationship? So it's two different stages in life, right?

And for those people, I would say, you know, the interesting questions I had is why does sex fade so often, even for people who love each other as much as ever because it's a false assumption that if I desire you less it means I love you less it's not true some people deeply care for each other and yet the desire fades so that was one question I had for the rekindling desire my second one was why does good intimacy not necessarily guarantee good sex, despite what people want to think? Why does sex make babies and babies spell erotic disaster in couples? When you love, how does it feel? And when you desire, how is it different?

And why is it that the forbidden is so erotic? And what is the difference between sex and eroticism? And all of that I then put into the workshop. And so the first thing is, you know, to understand that what seemed at one point to be spontaneous never was that spontaneous. Meaning, there's always a plot. It's just that in the beginning, even if you're on an app, you're getting all turned on by the swipe. You're getting all turned on by how you're getting ready, if you're on an app, you're getting all turned on by the swipe.

You're getting all turned on by how you're getting ready, where you're going to go, where you're going to meet, what you're going to talk about, if you're going to talk about anything. You're telling a plot, a story in your head. Of course, when you arrive, you're turned on. When you live with somebody, the story is in front of you. The turn on has to come from a number of things that create energy in you. The turn on has to come from a number of things that create energy in you. The first thing about desire and about eroticism is energy. And everybody knows energy that puts you to sleep, energy that wakes you up, energy that makes you sit on a couch like this. Right now I'm slouched, I'm on a couch, I'm relaxed, you know, it's cozy, comfortable, nothing's going to happen in this

position. Right. But if I sit up and I lean forward and I look at the two of you and I am alert, now I'm curious. Now I'm intentional. Now I'm waiting for things to happen and generating things to happen. That's a very different energy. Many people live in a relationship where that energy no longer appears. And when they tell you, in the beginning, we used to talk all the time. It's not just that they talk is that their bodies were leaning toward each other with curiosity,

with attention, with interest. I promise you they were not spending their time on their phone while they were having their first dates. They were paying attention. That is part of the energy for desire. You know, and this would be a question I would ask you. I turn myself off when? How do you shut yourself down? Oh. And that's not the same as what turns me off is. Uh-huh.

And he turns me off when? Right. So, I turn myself off, people will say, when I start thinking that, you know, I'm wearing the wrong clothes and I become all self-critical in the midst of sitting there. When I start to do the emails and look at my phone instead of the person that's in front of me. When I think it's never going to work and I go into my whole defeatist speech literally as I'm sitting there. Well, this is interesting because I have the, what I would say, and it's tied to this issue

I've had my whole life, which is this real cop out into fantasy. And it was an easy way for me to sort of do what other people were doing in a fake way. So when, weirdly, I turn myself off when the fantasy becomes real sometimes. So I have the fantasy of?

I mean, I guess it's truly it's the fantasy of someone who I felt like I couldn't have. who I felt like I couldn't have, when that proves to be not true, when I'm sitting in front of them and we're talking and oh, maybe I could have, that doesn't sit well with me. I turn myself off in those circumstances. This thing that I thought was above me is not above me. But in your fantasy, you're not rejected. No. Nobody's ever rejected in their fantasies. You're correct. Yep. In the fantasy, the person who are least likely for you to be able to catch their attention wants you so badly that you didn't even know it. And no matter how many times you say no, they will consistently, persistently continue to pursue you because they want to have you. And therefore, you are going to play out in fantasy the opposite of your fear of rejection.

You're irresistible. But how come in reality, like it could be the same person, like I've had a couple teacher fantasies. I'm drawn to people who are in a position of power. And if those people validate me, it automatically elevates me. Right. They have power because they're teachers, but also I admire them. I idealize them. It's not any teacher. And the person that I idealize, I elevate. And if that person then is attracted to me, then they elevate me. But why don't I like that feeling? I should like feeling elevated, right?

Yes. But I don't. It disproves the thing. Because in reality, it's scary to give somebody so much power and then to live with the fear that if they don't take you along with them, if they don't stay interested or that they may be interested today, but if they only knew you a little bit more, by tomorrow they will know better. Yeah. And that your insecurity will take the better of you. And they will realize that you are not nearly what they saw at first or what you managed to pretend to make them believe that you are that you're not really. It seems now obvious that that would have been a self-defense, even though I've never put two and two together before. That's what happens.

But, you know, it's the Groucho Marx thing. Like, I don't want to be a part of a club that would have me. But what does that statement mean? It's a powerful statement. It is. That says, I want you to want me so that I could want myself. could want myself but if you really want me then ultimately you must be semi-blind or not wear your glasses today or be more of a fool because if you were really smart and really as idealistic as I think you are you would never want me in the first place and you would know better even if you find out the next day that's exactly right like you are not what I thought you were if you like me

because if you like me you should only see what I see. And that means not good enough. Right. Right. That's the script that needs to be challenged. Yeah. You know, and that means that you reinterpret the word confidence. Confidence is not that you're perfect and that you're irresistible and that you are flawless.

Confidence is, as my friend Terry Reel so beautifully says, it's our ability to see ourselves as flawed individuals and still hold yourself in high regard. I think I have that. Do you? I do. I think you do have that too, actually. All my boyfriends, I was myself right off the beginning. I mean, I remember my second boyfriend, Tim.

What? You also, also part of your narrative is that you bend to the people. We'll talk about that. But the first date with Tim, we were out in Venice and I was moving all my drinks around and putting iced tea and putting sweetener in, and then I had a beer. So it was the guy that you- No, that was Greg. That was the first.

This is this two ago. And I'm moving all my stuff around, and I was just being Jess, and he goes, hey, are you an addict? And I go, oh, my God, like, this is insane and also super funny. And we hit it off, and either if I am an addict or not regardless it was just i i realized oh you're being yourself on this first date which was very good and i feel like i have done that continuously yes and monica is right throughout the dating process slowly but surely you know the joke is i become what i feel like i they want to be. In order not to lose them, I will lose a part of me. Exactly.

I don't want to lose them. These relationships have grounded me. These relationships have made me feel better about myself. These relationships have calmed down my manias a little bit. So I give them that power when I'm becoming a better self, and I put it on them instead of giving myself credit for it. What I'm hearing you say is that, tell me if I hear this correct, is that in order not to lose them, you will try to be what they want you to be.

Sometimes, yes. I innately can't help being myself. I'm a large presence, I feel. But when I hear Greg come home and I was watching a trashy TV show, he'd come up the stairs and I would turn the TV off and start doing push-ups. Oh, jeez. I didn't know that. Are you drawn to the guy that you just went for dinner with? Sam is great on paper. When I leave the gym, though, I'm not thinking about Sam.

And I don't know if I like him or i want him to like me but this is the first time where i don't have these butterflies these these lightning bolts for sam but that is probably the healthiest that's another yes because that's a whole other thing you know the view is every relationship starts hot and it only it only has one direction to go and that's down cold you start off with this butterflies where did people get that idea some relationships start like that movies yes i know of course and some relationships start completely different they start lukewarm they start in a friendship they start in start in a state of ambivalence. They start in a, this is so different from what I've had usually.

So many other ways to start. The narratives of desire are way more diverse than the way that we lock ourselves into this, you know, very few scripts. So you meet this person. And this time, no, you're not leaving. And you know, which usually lasts about three days for you anyway so what does it tell you this time you have this thing that is slowly slowly kind of entering under your skin in a very gentle way you know and uh there's something tender about it there's something funny kind there's something actually uh not performative about it. It's more relaxed.

It's low-key a little bit. And even if it's I want him to like me, that's an interesting thing. How come? Why him? And why is that so important? I don't know why him. We've been talking about him for a while now because it was this person that I've been around for five years at the gym that was just a guy. And you usually don't have people that you know, friends that become boyfriends or people that you have a different, much more sexualized interest in.

I think it's neat for you to finally have an alternative script in your relational life. Here, the desire doesn't start from you know i saw this this big nose or this big hair or whatever the thing that just turned me i went i swiped i first fucked then i met the person then i found out their name then we went maybe for dinner or get out of my mind why are you in my mind you know in this instance it's like and I'm not particularly in a rush and I have no idea. And I'm a little bit unsettled because it's not the usual and I'm not completely in my game because my game works on different principles. And yet there's something like about this thing. And if I do too about it.

Yes, I have the same reaction, the same feeling of like, this feels more hearty, nourishing, like real. Actually, I think that your challenge is to listen to this thing with him together. Oh my God. Oh Jesus, I'm leaving. Because it's so exposing, right? Because it's another way. Because he doesn't know any of these feelings. And I see this guy.

That's one way to tell him. But I don't know what these feelings are, what they are. That's right. You tell him I have no idea. I just found myself saying this stuff to this woman who I've never met. And she made me put this in front of you because she was trying to take me out of my habitual pattern and the way that I have known to control the narrative. And in this instance, I don't know it. I don't.

And so she said, listen, do it with him. At best, you'll both look at each other and say, we're meant to be friends. And at other version, it will be when maybe she saw something or sensed something that we didn't even know was there. This is awful. I'm so thrilled. I mean, I'm horrified about what you're going to give me, but I think this is fantastic.

Because you're right. At the end of the day, what would be the worst case scenario? He goes, you're amazing, Jess. And yes, we'll be friends. But we already are. And also, this is something you already feel. So you really have nothing to lose. I guess my insecurity is telling me if someone's ambivalent about me, I'm definitely ambivalent.

That's not a turn on that he's not a track but you don't know i also know how blunt he is and he told a guy once i could never fall in love with you that was his quote and also you're saying you don't know he might not know yet but he knows he likes spending time with you you know you like spending time with him that is like given you guys hang out and you like hanging out so no but you can put it on me you can you, you know you like spending time with him. That is like given you guys hang out and you like hanging out. No, but you can put it on me. You can say this, you know, this crazy woman and I have to do it because it's the show. I would never do this.

And you can say, if you're going to be blunt to the point of painful, please spare me. I don't want to know it. I will know from what you don't say as much as I will know from what you say. But actually, it's not about what you have to say. The exercise is for me. The exercise is for me to tell you I'm in unknown territory. This is off, and yet it feels nice. It does.

And I don't have a manic feeling about him. I don't have butterflies for him. I don't leave many, many guys in my looking. They haven't texted me. This and that, that thing. Text me back. I don't have any of that with this guy. I think it's because with those guys, you feel better than them. So if they're not texting you, you're like, why aren't they texting me? What's happening here? wow with sam you don't feel like that i don't in fact this whole thing started because you felt like he was out of your league so you're not gonna be like why isn't he texting me you know right on right on i didn't even realize you see her story about the groucho Marx you have your version you're doing a parallel track of

the same thing you find people who don't threaten you you find people who if they don't want you no big loss you find people that you don't have to experience the vulnerability of will they accept me will they value me and so when do you have one time on an equal playing field, or even you admire him, or you look up to him, or you thought he was out of your league, then suddenly your issues of self-worth are entering the picture. And I think self-worth is part of any time you want someone

and you're not sure if they want you. And even if you're with a steady partner, you want to know if they want you as much as you want them, if they still love you as much, if they still attract. I don't think this thing goes away. I'm 30 plus years with the same person. I think these things, but I consider those things not problems. I consider them the fuel of love and passion and desire. There's a level of that insecurity that is very important. If you constantly make yourself in situations where you are uber confident

because the other people don't matter to you as much, you never get to experience the real nourishment that comes. You get to experience the manic state, the ravenousness. I have to have, I have to have, but the moment I've had, I need more because there's a bottomless pit.

This is a very different experience. This is actually more about desire and less about arousal. Yeah. So, I turn myself off, you have. Now I want to hear, I turn myself on. I turn myself on when and by. It's not the same

as what turns me on is or you turn me on when. Hmm. I turn myself on when? You could do it with him. One, one. This is how I do it in The Kindling Desire. You say a sentence, you say a sentence.

I turn myself on. I awaken myself when? I turn myself on when I feel very healthy. I turn myself on when I feel productive. I turn myself on when I feel seen. I turn myself on when I feel I have something to offer. I turn myself on. Oh, it's about the, I want to say it's about the other person.

It's really difficult when I turn myself on because there's plenty of things that turn me on. But I can't say those. If you are shut down, the other person can do anything. If there's no one at the reception desk, the thing falls flat. You're right. So it's tempting to want to say when you, when they, when he, when she. But in fact, if you are not receptive, if you are self-critical, if you are feeling numb, if you are shut down, if you are in protective mode, the other person can do anything you fantasize about, like you described before. You will shut down and nothing will happen.

That's why I want you to really see how much of desire is something that you own. So the I turn myself on, I awaken myself, I elicit my desire is not just purely sexual. It becomes sexualized, but it starts with an erotic energy of aliveness, vitality, vibrancy, life force. When I do something useful, when I'm meaningful, when I matter, when I'm important, there needs to be a vessel first that feels those things. And within there, the sexual energy takes place. Otherwise, you can do what you do and you can have sex with loads of people. But you could just as well say, I am basically using an anti-anxiety. You understand? Yeah, I do.

The act of sex can represent a lot of things that have very little to do with sexuality and pleasure. I mean, it was like, it was a gym, and then it was going to the bank, and then it was a hookup at 1.30, and then it was this at 2. I mean, it was part of my day like it was... So when I think about rekindling desire, when I think about how you integrate desire as part of the fabric of your relationships, sex is a piece of it, but you can do the act sex and it has many other meanings that have very little to do

with what I consider is part of sexual health, which is the beautiful integration between safety and pleasure. And I've had plenty of sex. And then this new thing that you're teaching me that I'm literally going through in the moment is different and I feels different and it is exciting. So we've got your challenge. You meet Sam and you tell him, I don't even know how I got to talking about you. You know, but it followed the previous challenge. And then I just realized there's something that I'm enjoying here. It's really unsettling.

It's uncomfortable. It's slightly, you know, it's on this perilous edge between fear and fascination. It's, you know. And this lady made me do it. Because the erotic, it's that real combination between anxiety and excitement, between fear and pleasure. It lives on that space. And that's why you're going to just tell him, I don't know myself.

I just know that there's something here that I really appreciate. And I just wanted you to know. Now we go to you. But it has to be something in which you bring your assertiveness. Your assertiveness is what is what Jess described when he says look how she's so a go-getter and so able to go and want and claim and when it has to do with work but she does none of that when it has to do with work, but she does none of that when it has to do with intimacy. Is there someone in your life that you know has been waiting for you to notice that they are looking at you? There was one person, but then I went on a date with him via this. And what

happened? We went on a date. It was nice. What does that mean? We went on a date and it was nice. Both sentences to me are like... Not great. We went for drinks. No, no, I'm not asking you if you had chocolate milk or a beer. I know. Come on. I know, but we just chatted.

But you chatted with this guy for many times before. But because you didn't have the frame date, it was perfectly pleasant. Well, we didn't chat that many times before. But the fact that you were on a date made you constantly check, how is it going? I hate this. Why am I here? I shouldn't be doing this. This is boring.

So what you turned yourself off the entire time you were there. Yeah. All right. So your challenge is to basically don't go to a bar. The majority of dates should be done in motion. It's a crazy thing for people to sit across the table and interview each other as if they're at a job interview, rather than go and experience something together. I agree.

Go take a bike trip, go see a show, go listen to live music, go walk around, move. First of all, you'll be in parallel. And you don't spend there frozen seated looking at each other waiting for something to say something interesting. And then just say, we went out last time or we had to drink last time. And I think in your head, don't say this to him. I basically managed to torpedo the whole thing. There was no chance that this thing could be pleasant. don't say this to him. I basically managed to torpedo the whole thing. There was no chance that this thing could be pleasant.

I'm not talking about this guy becoming your boyfriend or anything. I'm just saying pleasant. Your challenge is to have an experience with someone that is pleasant. Pick your guy, but the exercise is for you to go and to not let the frame undermine you. Because this thing is called a date. Right. It now has to fulfill a mission. And you're not going to let that mission be fulfilled

because you're going to be talking to your little one here is going to the entire time tell you all the ways in which this is never going to work. Right. I'm not saying you should pump yourself up and say, this is going to be the be end of my life. I'm just saying you should pump yourself up and say this is going to be the end of my life. I'm just saying pleasant. Pleasant for me is without this negative infusion that undermines you and brings the entire history of your relational life with you. That's the goal. Because everything you've done in your challenges, even when you sat there with your very revealing clothes and all of that, you sat there thinking, what the hell am I doing?

This is ridiculous. The whole time. You can do. This is the same way that people have sex and feel nothing. So you were doing sexy things while you are constantly undermining yourself in a defeatist way. There's no way that this can be enjoyable. And sexual health is safety and pleasure. If there is no pleasure, there's no desire.

Okay. Well, this is also interesting because it's reminiscent of what Dr. Drew was saying to me about stop putting confines on all of this. He's like, just go be with people. But then our challenges had nothing to do with that. So this is good. I mean, you can say to the person, I'm on a challenge. And this woman, she told me that when my little voice here starts to defy me and tell me how this is going to be miserable, it's going to be unbearable, it's never going to work. And it's certainly it's not going to be pleasurable and what the hell am I doing here?

That I have to first turn attention, turn off the volume and just say, excuse me, but you're not invited here tonight. I'm actually having a nice time. Would you mind letting me be 32 because I'm not anymore at 13 in Georgia? So if I talk to myself on a date, that's what's happening. I just like, heads up, if I talk to myself, my shoulder, and so like there's a little miniature goblin there, a little goblin. Exactly, exactly.

But you make fun of it, you know, and you just say, she just asked me to make sure that the goblin is taken care of because otherwise we're not going to have a good time, you and I. The exercise is not in who you're with. Yeah. Not even in what you do. You have done six different things, but you've done them all with the same mentality. Yeah, you're right.

Your frame of mind has been the same in every one of those situations. It doesn't matter if you would be drinking tea or dressed in a décolleté. You are sitting with the same mindset. I am saying pick the situation you want. The challenge for you is the mindset. It's the narrative that accompanies you. It's like you're going on a date with a story. And that story is dictating your entire interaction.

Yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter who you're with because the story prevails. I know so many people with stories, whatever there is. Yeah, everyone has their own. And they love them. And the majority of advice is given about changing the situation. But if you can have 10 situations with the same story, the story prevails. Goblin is the person you want to address.

You want to say, you've been there. You've been kind to me. You took care of me. You made sure that I didn't get hurt 10 times before, but I'm ready. I'm ready to, even if I'm hurt,

I can handle it. Yeah, yeah. You're going on a date, not with the person, but with the story. Yeah. And you want to now switch it so that you can be on a date

with another person and not with your history. I love it. God. Oh, Esther, you did it again. You blew our minds again. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. This was so helpful. We're so grateful. We'll let you know how it goes. Yeah. I'm very curious. Thank you very much.

And everyone, please check out Rekindling Desire Workshop. So you can be hands-on with all of this stuff. So Rekindling Desire is on estherperel.com. Okay. And with that, the monthly newsletter and blog where I go deeper into a lot of these things, including a lot of the situations that we described today are on my YouTube series called Moments.

Ah, okay, great. So I basically am addressing many of these issues on multiple different platforms in different formats. Wonderful. But it's all with the idea of helping you create thriving relationships, deal with your fears, experience desire, redefine healthy sexuality, and have a full life. That's what we want. Thank you so much. All right, thank you.

My pleasure.