Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Part 9: Monica & Jess love Love Addiction with Dr. Alex Katehakis

Episode Date: April 8, 2020

In Part 9: Monica & Jess love Love Addiction, M and J chat with author and the Clinical Director of Center for Healthy Sex in Los Angeles, Dr. Alex Katehakis. Dr. Alex talks about the tenants of unmanageability and addiction. Monica wonders if you can be a love addict who’s never fallen in love and Jess asks questions about post relationship nostalgia. Dr. Alex declares both Monica and Jess have some dissociative tendencies in relationships and adhere to fantasy as an outlet. Monica expresses her fears of being replaceable and Dr.Alex thinks Jess uses sex to mitigate anxiety. The three talk about childhood abandonment and how that has trickled into adulthood and she gives both Monica and Jess 90 day challenges to take into the world. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Monica, aka Miniature Mouse. I love boys. But I don't have one. And in fact, I've never had one. I could probably count on two hands how many dates I've been on in my entire life. And I decided it's time to change that. Hi, I'm Jess, and I love boys too. And in the opposite way of Monica, I can't count on all the hands in America how many people I've had sex with. And yet, I

still don't have a boyfriend. And I want one. And I'm Dax, and I love Monica and Jess in so many ways. They don't have partners. And that is a huge mystery to me because they're both incredibly attractive, so fun, so smart, and have so much to offer. So what we decided to do is examine these unhealthy patterns and bring in experts and outsiders to help critique us, advise us, guide us, pretty much call bullshit on us so that we can find the romantic companion that we're looking for. We started this thinking it was gonna be just cute, little dating challenges that we would go on and talk about and laugh about. Turns out it is very hard to be vulnerable

in real time in public. Yes, I'm so excited! You are so lying. We romanticize pathological love. One to 10, how much do you want love? Go, you can't even get the sentence out. I would just eat around it. It's a little selfish.

Why do I want something, and then why have I designed a defense? We must put the chum in the water for the sharks to come, buddy. Monica's like, so apparently I have to join Raya this week. He likes f**king. You don't even have a kiss, a handhold, anything. Your frontal lobe is just in the way. Push-up bra, low-cut top. That's what you should be doing.

I masturbate every night. Rob's too uncomfortable for this. Please enjoy part nine, Monica and Jess love love addiction with Dr. Alex Katahakis. Jess don't like, Jess don't like boys. He loves boys. Monica and Jess, you know they don't like boys. They love boys. All right, guys, we did it. We had some technical difficulties as is the new normal but that's okay we're here we're part nine of monica and jess love boys our second to last episode and this is

truly this is our last episode with a real expert next week will be our parents, Kristen and Dax, and it will be more of a recap of our journey. So this is our last real ep, and we are so excited because we have an amazing guest that I'm sure many people remember from Armchair Expert, Dr. Alex Katahakis. We're so grateful. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. I mean, from the get-go, Rob and I were talking about who we should have on, and your name popped up immediately because you know so much about this world and the idiosyncrasies of it. And so we are really excited to get your input.

I guess first, though, we should do a follow-up of our challenges from last week, which Dan Savage gave us. And my challenge, he made a really, really interesting point. He said women operate often subconsciously and consciously out of fear in dating situations. And that's a very real thing and a very necessary thing because women can get physically overpowered and have often been put in situations where they feel powerless and, you know, all of these things that add up to us putting a lot of walls up before we are able to get physical. And he was noting that in the gay community, which Jess is gay, that they don't have that as much, especially in the male gay community.

They don't really have that. So for me, he wanted me to have a sleazy interaction to start with a sleazy interaction. Oh, wow. Yes. Oh my God. I am so excited, by the way. I'm freaking out. So his challenge to me was to have phone sex or sex texting interaction with someone. And he was like maybe someone from an app, basically a stranger and so I did that and I'm not gonna tell for this person's sake and privacy and consent I'm not going to say anything about who that person was or how I found that person

but I did it and it was it was really fun it was really fun it It was really fun. It felt exciting. It felt titillating. It felt safe. Like I did not feel scared, which I thought I was going to. I thought I was going to have a lot of fear around it. I was, of course, very nervous to get that interaction going. But yeah, I mean, I was thinking like, if from day one, we started

this, if someone said at some point, your challenge is going to be to have phone sext or sexting, like active sexting with a stranger. I mean, I would have just been like, you couldn't pay me a million dollars. I would never do it. And I did. So what had you taking the challenge? Is it just because you felt like you had to? Or was there something intriguing about it? Good question. I mean, I think both. I mean, I'm so type A, I'm so rule follower E, that there's not going to be a piece of homework that I don't turn in properly. So there's that where once it was assigned, it was like, okay, I'm going to have to figure out a way to do this. That's the way I felt after every challenge, by the way.

Like every single one has been like, oh boy, all right, I guess I'll figure out how to do it. Like none of them have been easy. Do you think the previous challenges made this one easier for you? I think so. I think they have been building on each other and maybe not even in that the challenges have been building. I think confidence has been building, you know, and this idea that like, I can do it. I can do all these things that seemed impossible. They're not. And I think that's more what it is it's just like jumping these

hurdles and getting on the other side of it and saying like oh I did it so it makes it feel like whatever challenge comes I could probably do that too it's been a very interesting ride but yeah it was fun and it was intense and it was a hundred it was not a kid glove right exchange it was intense and it was a hundred. It was not a kid glove exchange. It was a full blown exchange. Did you get horny? Yes. That's awesome. Yeah, it was fun. It was, it was, it was really fun. Can you imagine contacting this person again?

again yes and that was sort of a part of it a lot of the exchange was talking about the future not like we're going to be in a relationship but just like when we get to be together I want to do this I see so there was a lot of like projection to the future which at first I was like, oh, oh, no, like that felt scary. That felt like an expectation. But then I was like, who cares? And also because of this quarantine, the stay in place, I don't even know when that will be. I don't need to worry about that. I'll just be present. And I was able to do that. I mean, how did you leave it with the person? It was left with a little bit of an ellipses of like next time or there's some open endedness. It did not feel like an open and shut. How much of this did you feel was, was there a point where you forgot about the show and you were 100% present? Or was it always like a part of this is because I have to do it?

When it was starting, it was like, okay, I have to do this. I have to do this. But once I was in it, I mean, this was also like over an hour. That's a long time. Yeah, it was a long time. And so maybe it was hanging over my head that this is for the show,

but I wasn't actively aware of that during. But as soon as it was done, I was like, okay. I felt like I checked it off the list a bit but i was still like oh that was fun and exciting and i did it and i'm glad it's done and all of these challenges that you checked off the list even though it's one step forward maybe a half step back you're still a half step better every single time. Like there is no fucking way you would have done this four months ago. No way. No way at all. It seems to me one of the big victories in this for you, Monica, was what you said about,

I don't have to get uptight about the future because, hey, we're all in self-quarantine. And taking that pressure off of yourself is a really good reminder that when you start to date people live, that it doesn't have to be a type A checklist. It's just a momentary experience. Exactly. It's just about, well, let me just see what this is like. And it doesn't really have a meaning or a grade to it. Jess, what about your challenge? Jess, what about your challenge? So my challenge was, long story short, Dr. Alex, for me, I've had a four-year sexual relationship with a guy named Archer. For four years, all we've had is sex.

But throughout all the years, I've realized this guy's kind of cool and I've liked him at a certain point. He's kind of this and that. And I was like, this guy is always in my life still. And Dan was like, that's a relationship, whatever you want to consider it. He said, so why don't you have a date with him? He also said had phone sex. But I said, I'll try that. But he is at his parents in Pennsylvania and he's quarantined. And I would rather have a real date.

So we had an hour and a half date yesterday. And it was really, really awesome. And it's so interesting that we lead with sex when both of us are kind of these guys that are working on ourselves. And the conversation was about his parents and how COVID is affecting his self-isolation and how he doesn't want to Zoom with his friends because all they do is talk about COVID. Then we started talking about us. And it was really nice to hear he zooms therapy twice a week. And he basically said, now that I've heard a little bit of your podcast, and now that I've worked on myself, I wasn't open to meeting you four years ago.

Oh, wow. I came and I moved out here from the East Coast and left all my friends and left my family to open this startup business, which he now is a CEO of. And he goes, I wasn't open to it. And I see that now. And I go, well, that's really honest of you. I appreciate that. So it was really a beautiful time. I smiled at the end of it. And I kind of like him. But the thing that I like about him is that I don't need him, which is really, really awesome. All my exes that they whatever happened, I'm like, I need, I need, I need, but this guy has been in my life for four years and he's never been mine.

So I don't care. And that has grown into something that's very, you know, Esther Perel talks about, and so do you about love that real love is like, I want the best for you. So when I hung up with him, I was like, I really like this guy, and I might never be with him. And that's okay. So how has that changed your orientation then towards the more compulsive ways that you have sex? And what have you learned about what that sexual compulsivity does for you? Well, I've learned through all of this, that it was a time in my life where it was serving purpose, whether that was anxiety or whether that was need for attention or whatever it was.

But I don't have that as much anymore. When you say anymore, you mean since you've been doing this podcast or? Just life. Just life. Okay. I probably might have it once COVID is done. I'm definitely going to hook up with guys again. It's not out of my body, but I've said it on many times now, since all of this is happening, it has slowed down a lot. Right. But also I have to say,

I noticed when we were setting up and you couldn't quite get your mic and everything working that your anxiety kind of went through the roof, that you had a hard time just regulating yourself and knowing that this was going to be okay. And Rob is awesome. I mean, but yet your arousal system started to get pretty hot, like a very short fuse. And I can't help but wonder how much you use sex, even when you say, well, I'm going to probably hook up after this, because it's how you manage your anxiety and how you've always managed it. Sure. Oh, not just that. I mean, food, booze. I mean, we have a lot of discussions about this addiction thing, and I definitely fall on a higher scale of addiction than most people. I do not have secrets, though, and I don't have shame about my life as much. And

yeah, it's a touchy subject for me, definitely. This is, I mean, a huge reason why we think you're specifically able to have these conversations with us because addiction comes up, and not even addiction, OCD, these mechanisms we're using to regulate have come up throughout this podcast and in our lives. It just comes up in our lives and conversation all the time. And I know you know so much about love addiction and sex addiction and addiction in general that I do think it's all very relevant to the way we both behave. So my question is specifically in this sex and love way, is it only labeled an addiction if there are consequences? You know, it's such a funny word, and a lot of people rail against that word.

Addiction literally is defined as a strong predilection for something. And I think in the addiction circles, like the world of 12-step, it's when people feel demoralization, when they feel like they have all this unmanageability and messes in their lives. And for people that are higher functioning, those messes can be much more subtle. Like, I just can't put together an intimate relationship, but I don't care because I'm a modern woman or a modern man, and I don't need that. And that's a choice today. I mean, there's no one correct way to live. So if somebody wants to be serial monogamous, or they want to just be, you know, multisexual, pansexual, you name it, then that's okay. It's just a question of what do you want? And I think that's what's been so lovely about this podcast for the two of you is that you started to question, well, what am I doing and what do I actually want? And that's a hard question to answer, especially when you've become so adaptive in your strategies for how you manage in life. And so five years from now, Monica, do you want to be

living alone and having, you know, texting sex with people? That would be fine if you do. And just five years from now, do you still want to be having anonymous sex with guys? Or can you imagine a life with Archer or someone like that, where you're having a different experience of yourself? That's all. So it's not judgmental, it's not, you know, normative, it's just what do you want? That helps a lot, because you're right, that word addiction is very triggering for most people, because it's a black or white thing. On the first episode of this podcast, Dax looked at me, and he goes, what if you were? And then I am, do you look less of me? And the more I talk about it, the more I

am open to that. I am open to it because it is just a word. And I think there's a wide range of addicts, I guess. There is. And that's the thing about addiction. It's not a one size fits all situation. Everybody does their addiction in different ways. But people have a commonality underlying all of it, where they might feel isolated or alone, or like they can't get certain parts of their lives together. And that's where I think people helping people is enormously helpful. It's tricky, because I do think we all we want camps, like we want I'm an addict, or I'm not an addict but I think there is this sense that if you come to terms with the fact that maybe you are that there there there

needs to be some steps to get out of that sure and I think it's worth trying it on for size because I think you know we could say that for you Monica you, you're avoidant. You're love avoidant. Yes. Right? And just as sex addicted, you can use those constructs as a way to think about something, but it doesn't mean that you have to collapse down into it and that it's a shaming or finger wagging construct either. It's like, well, what if I tried that on and what does it mean? And what are the things I can do or use of that system to help me start to change in ways that are fundamentally important to me? And I think for you, Monica, you were saying that it was scary for you. And Dan was pointing out to something

that I think is more evolutionary and less psychological, that women do have to be protective. We can be penetrated. We can be overpowered. And if you experience any kind of bullying at all as a child, you already have those defenses set up and they've become quite strong over time. But when you can call forth your adult self and say, wait a minute, pleasure can be fun. And I can do it in a way that's safe. and say, wait a minute, pleasure can be fun. And I can do it in a way that's safe. And that was really kind of sexy and hot. And what would happen if you put that together with somebody,

you know, if you went on an active date, like the guy you went on the date with, was he attractive to you in any way? Yeah, he is. He is. I mean, I do this thing, which I'm really trying to break out of, which is it's hard for me to say like, yes, yes, he's attractive without saying a hundred other things like, but there's this about him or there's this, you know, it's hard to not evaluate the whole person or try to look 10 years down the line. I mean, I'm really actively trying hard to not do that. That's a good idea. But it is my instinct. It is definitely my instinct.

That's all of your control and all that analysis is very, very controlling. And it's a defense against vulnerability as opposed to what if I just take this one date at a time and see and notice how do I feel in relation to this person? Definitely. And I wonder if that will eventually become second nature or if I'm always going to have to remind myself. Either way, I think it's okay if I have to remind myself, which as of right now I do. I still have to remind myself. But when I started this, I was not even at that point. I wasn't even at the point where I could be aware of it, remind myself to get out of it, and then move forward.

This working on yourself is such a slow process. It is a slow process, right? And it is a mindfulness practice because the inverse of that would be just noticing your anxiety and saying, wow, my knee-jerk reaction is to go hook up with somebody and lunge at sex to make this feeling go away. And what if I just took a deep breath and I didn't do that? What else might I do? These are mindfulness practices. What else might I do? Yeah.

These are mindfulness practices. When you brought up sex addiction to me, I would maybe think I'm more of a love addict in the sense of the despair. You know, I have my question for you during this time is this thing that I'm suffering with, which I've had for a couple of years now, which is nostalgia. You know, I had to send a couple pictures to my best friend's Eric. So I had to go through my computer and I saw hundreds of pictures of, which is nostalgia. I had to send a couple of pictures to my best friend's Eric. So I had to go through my computer and I saw hundreds of pictures of me and my ex. And it was just this overwhelming nostalgia and this addict-y way of just thinking of that it was perfect. And it wasn't. And I wanted to reach out to him and I wanted to send him all these pictures.

And I've done that for many, many years with this guy, Greg. What do you think, especially now when people are probably reaching out to their exes because it's wartime? Oh, yeah, exactly. What is your thoughts about nostalgia? What are you hoping for? What do you imagine is going to happen in your perfect life? He's going to miss it, too. I'm on his mind all the time when I'm thinking about him.

I send him these pictures, and it puts him in emotional quicksand. This thing is like, it's been four years and you want, you know, my ex, he was the best. I don't know what I think about, but it's,

it goes on for like an hour or so. Yeah. But that is also dissociative. And that's a fantasy track that is dissociative. You're not present at all. And you're creating this sort of epically proportionate soap opera about something that's just not real. And you can spend all of your time in that and not in dealing with the awkwardness and the uncomfortability of getting to know somebody in real time. Right. in real time. So you're creating something that's not real. And there's also power and control in that, I think, Jess. There's power that I'm wanted. Somebody is in quicksand because they want me so badly and they miss me. And that sounds like an old, old wound to me,

this desire to be loved and wanted and held and cared for. Yeah. And then there's also this idea of reciprocity though. You are in that hour, you're an emotional quicksand. And so you feel like, well, I hope he feels the same way because we're the same. You want these feelings of equality with him or you don't want to feel like he's better than you or he's moved on or he's in a different place. And so you want these feelings of equality with him, or you don't want to feel like he's better than you, or he's moved on, or he's in a different place. And so you want him to be in the same place you're in, which, yeah. Right. And I have a lot of shame about that as far as that this person for four years later still holds this part in my brain and my mind that I wish wasn't there. Yeah. And you're right. That is sort of

quintessentially love addiction, just holding onto the fantasy of somebody in actuality you really don't want to be with, which is why you broke up or they broke up. And you know they're not real, but it's a placeholder for being able to escape into when being in the present or being in your body or being in your anxiety or being alone in your house for whatever it is now, 30 days, it's just too uncomfortable to bear. Yeah. I wondered about that too with love addiction because we've talked about this before. All of us have talked separately about this before, but I have so much fantasy. I've always had so much fantasy in my life. And even even I mean, this is so

embarrassing to say, but I will say it because I guess this is what we do here. But when I was first assigned this sexting phone sex challenge, I had like an immediate plan that was me connecting with a person who I have a fantasy about. But there's a real connection to this person in my brain. I was fantasizing about the idea of doing this with that person. And I was like, maybe I could find a way to do that. And then I told Jess I was like I want to with X person right and he was like classic fantasy and I was like oh my god that's right I hadn't even put two and two together that I was doing that and that it was never going to be a reality that I was going to do that with this person. And I guess, can you be a love addict who hasn't been in love? Sure. Yeah, because the love addict is in love with the idea of being in love. It can be with anybody. It can be really even a same-sex person. If you're not gay,

if you're a woman, you can be love addicted to another female who you wish you could be like, or you imagine she's so cool, or you like the way she dresses, or she's got success in some ways. And you can aggrandize her in your head. So yes, because I think it becomes a barrier to actually loving. Because actual love is really slow. It's very analog. You're also having to deal with a person's humanity. You know, if they've got food in their teeth or bad breath on some day, or it's not the intensity

that you were talking about, Jess, that is embedded in the Greg fantasy. Well, I know now that that was an infatuation. I don't even know if it was love, to be honest. Right. But love addictive fantasies are somehow, you know, torrid and amazing and intense. And I think we have moments of that in love relationships for sure. We have moments of, you know, great, hot, amazing sex and moments of deep love and moments of joy and laughter. But it's not a happily ever after story. That's just a lie that we've been told collectively. It's hard work, as you said, Monica. It's a lot of work to really start to get

to know yourself and why you do what you do and to be mindful about it and say, oh, wow, there's that analysis again. Well, there's my anxiety and I want to lunge at some person. It's like, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do something different and see what might emerge that might be unique in this moment here. So that's about loving yourself, taking yourself on, getting to know yourself deeply so that then you start to have the confidence to be vulnerable enough to bring that to another person who actually can hold your heart and your being in kind that's not going to trash it or make fun of you or bully you or some other nonsense. Yeah. I mean, that's what's almost ironic about some of these fantasies, for me anyway,

these fantasies, these people, they're all people who I would probably feel scared to, like, I would be mortified if I had food in my teeth in front of. You know, like, I'd be scared to be human around. I want to be perfect. That might be your challenge. You have to go out on a date with kale in your teeth. but these fantasies these people that you put on pedestals that you want them in in a similar way that jess was saying he he wants greg to be in the quicksand like i want that person to see me like i see them right but do you see how controlling that is and how and how that that eradicates your humanity yeah your beauty, your imperfection.

And it's so interesting because when we started this podcast, Rob was kind of directing us and there were technical issues and there's something really sort of sloppy and imperfect about it, but we have no problem with that, right? Because we trust that something is going to emerge out of this conversation and it's going to to come together, and it's going to click, and it's going to be really cool and amazing. And yet, when it comes to just kind of hanging out with some person, some guy, presumably for you, you don't trust that either music's going to be made or it's not. And that's what chemistry is. And you might have a nice time with somebody but that's that or you might just feel like you're you know amazingly turned on by them and super excited yeah and just let it be and see what happens it's like you're saying you need a white shirt like you've got on

this nice white shirt and you can go try on 50 white shirts and they're never quite right or tailored and at some point it's like just just pick a fucking shirt. Just take a shirt. It's good enough. Put it on and go. Right. Yeah. We are supported by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep knows that everyone is individual. We're not all the same. We're one of a kind. And it designs its mattresses specifically for our body types and sleep preferences. How do you like your mattress, Jess? Nice and firm. And I sleep half on my back and half on my side. Nice. Yeah, I like a medium and I'm a side sleeper, but also sometimes a stomach sleeper. So when I took the quiz,

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my life is 100% supported by Postmates. I order food using Postmates so, so often. I've said this before, but I have Postmates a DVD player once because it's raining outside. I needed to watch the movie that night. I woke up in the morning and I said, I am watching The Favorite tonight. So I Postmates a DVD player and that's how reliant I am on it. Apart from DVD players, they also mainly do food delivery. And I order food all the time. We ordered food yesterday. We had blood sews. You ordered it to your house and I ordered it to mine and we ate it over virtual chat. Yes, it was really fun.

So fun. They deliver food from every restaurant I can even think of. It doesn't just deliver burgers and sushi. They make life easier with grocery delivery and pretty much whatever I can think of delivery. So no more trips to the store. no more late night fast food runs. Just download Postmates on iOS or Android, find your favorites, and get anything you want delivered within the hour. For a limited time, Postmates is giving our listeners $100 of free delivery credit for your first seven days. Guys, do this. To start your free deliveries, download the app and use code LOVEBOYS.

That's code LOVEBOYS for $100 of free delivery credit with no minimum purchase for your first seven days when you download the Postmates app. Anything you need, anytime you need it, Postmate it. I have a question because you brought up me being, which I think is absolutely accurate, me being avoidant and maybe the opposite, that is addictive. What are these categories of pattern, I guess, that people fall into? Well, a lot of times, you know, if we use, again, this particular system of thinking about things, you know, the love addict lives in fantasy, particular system of thinking about things. The love addict lives in fantasy, lives in fantasy about the ideal person. And it's a way to not have to get out of their comfort zone, out of their avoidance actually, out of your home, out of your just little world and go connect with real live

human beings. So the love addict, love avoidant are sort of flip sides of the same coin. They're in love with the idea of being love instead of really being in love with another human being. And they serve each other and, you know, staying safe. And that's sort of the name of the whole game is all stay safe. And some love addicts really start to get involved in relationships with people that are patently unavailable. And they tell themselves that they have more of a capacity for intimacy and they really do want to be in a relationship. But it's like, I'm always picking guys that are unavailable. And it's like, well,

that's because you really can't connect with somebody. You have as much difficulty with intimacy as they do. Right. Right. So what are the outs? I mean, I know you said like, if you find yourself in these patterns, what do we do? Well, I think you're both starting to do it. You're both starting to, you've identified the patterns and then you're starting to take what they say in the program is contrary action. Like that feels really uncomfortable. So I have to go do that thing. And it's in that, that you bump up against your defenses and your fears and you start to see like, well, that wasn't so bad. It's like, you know, the first time you heard about French kissing, like what was your reaction to that? Do you remember?

I thought it was a food. You thought it was a food. You thought French kissing was a food. What about you? How old were you, Monica, when you first heard about it? Maybe age six or seven. Yeah. Well, that's generally when kids hear about it, like seven or eight years old. And generally their reaction is like, oh my God, that's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. Like, why would you want someone's wet tongue in your mouth? Yeah. Right? It's just nasty. And then by the time you get to be 13, 14 years old, all your friends are doing it. So you think, well, I'm going to try this on. And you settle yourself down and you try it and it's a little

weird and freaky, but eventually you start to really like it. And so what was previously gross and disgusting, all of a sudden is kind of hot and something that you want to do all the time. And that's how we grow developmentally when it comes to sex and relationships. So whether we're talking about sex, Monica, for you, or intimacy, Jess, for you, which is really being relational with somebody, these are awkward, difficult, squeamish sort of feelings that as adults, we have to tolerate in order to grow and change. And that's true for anything. And if you were going to learn Mandarin Chinese, you'd be like, oh my God, my head's killing me. I can't do it. My anxiety is going up. And yet if you settle yourself down and you

just pay attention, eventually you'll be able to say, you know, I'd like to, I'd like an order of egg roll in Chinese, right? Yeah. Yeah. But what's funny is, so you're, you're walking us through this timeline of, you know, you learn about it, it's gross. And then you hit 13, 14 and you try it for everyone, but I'll, I can only speak for me. There's like roadblocks, right? So like at 13, 14, when try it for everyone. But I can only speak for me. There's like roadblocks, right? So like at 13, 14, when everyone, you know, at my school, it was if you could unwrap

a Starburst wrapper with your tongue, everyone said you were a good kisser. That was like a whole thing. And, you know, I remember everyone was talking about that and it was like kissing and people were kissing under the bleachers and it was like starting to become a thing. And and then that was the age where I felt the most rejected, where I felt like I liked people and they didn't like me back or I wanted to try it, but nobody wanted to try it with me.

And so once these roadblocks start getting in the way of this trajectory, I think it derails. Sure. That's what happens. I mean, there's a developmental delay. And I was talking to somebody earlier this morning, actually, about this, who is gay and who comes from a certain ethnicity, and just about how being gay was a sin in his culture and how he didn't really come out to his parents until he was 27. And then, you know, instead of having a normal developmental trajectory as a 14-year-old boy who gets to have a crush on a boy and then go to the equivalent of prom with the boy and sort of, quote, normally date, it gets shut down.

And then by the time he's out of college, man, he's like off to the races, right? He's kind of catching up and making up for lost time because he's sort of developmentally sexually immature at that point. So yeah, we can get stunted in our sexual growth and development. And then we spend a lot of our adulthood trying to unravel it and make up for that time. I mean, that is our story. Right. Both of you in different ways. Look, you know, this is one of those millions of paradoxes and being a human being, but we all need validation. We're not meant to

do this alone. We need to know that, yeah, that looks good or that sounds right. Or wow, you know, maybe you can tweak this a little bit here or there. We need feedback. And yet, if we are solely reliant on it, then we become crippled. And if we're completely needless and wantless, then we really become crippled in a different way, where we feel isolated and alone, lonely, unlovable, damaged, you name it. And so striking a balance where you've become hyper-independent, Monica, where I don't need anybody. I can have success and do everything on my own. I'm a straight-A student and super capable. Doesn't make a space for someone to desire and to compliment you and

to want you. So it's enormously brave of the two of you because you're making yourself so vulnerable. It's like you're doing therapy in front of millions of people. And it's enormously brave of the two of you because you're making yourself so vulnerable. It's like you're doing therapy in front of millions of people. And it's also a good sort of compass for you to say that these are the same kind of conversations you want to have with someone you're dating, someone you're just getting to know. To go on a first date with someone, Monica, and say to them, you know what? I've never done this before. I'm really nervous right now. Yeah. Yes. And thank you for just kind of tolerating my quirkiness or goofiness and- Oh, wow. Right? Just be- That takes such confidence saying that.

But you're doing it on air. That's my point. I know. Yeah, it's true because I also, I had a date this week, another date that someone reached out and we'd had a virtual happy hour. And he reached out because of I don't know if it was this show or armchair or whatever, but he knows my story and he has had many relationships. And in another circumstance, I would have been very scared during that conversation and even at the beginning of this I went on a date and someone was talking about their relationship history and then they were asking me about mine and I was very scared to answer truthfully and even just at the end of this I just said as we were talking i was like well you know i i haven't had any real serious relationships so i don't know about this and i just like said that

very plainly that's awesome and it does feel a little bit like a cop-out because he already knew i wasn't telling him something he didn't know but it still felt okay saying it and just being – I mean, because there's really nothing I – there's nothing I can do about that. That's who I am. That's my history. And all we can do is change the future. Right. Right. So that willingness to be authentic, to be transparent, to say this is just who I am, like I have brown hair and brown eyes. Oh, well, that's just how it is.

It's incredibly liberating. And there's a lack of perfectionism in that too, that you just get to be, you know, messy and who you are and not invent some, you know, romantic past. Yeah. I think the more you do that, the easier it's going to get for you also. I mean, I can never lie about my age anymore on these apps because I've said I'm 43 100,000 times. It's true. Oh, my God. That's true. Wow. I hadn't thought about that. Because when we started this, I was begging Jess to put his actual age on these things. And he truly physically could not do it. Wow. But I have a couple more questions

just about like your field of work and relationships in general. Because we talked a little bit with Dr. Drew about attachments and early attachments and stuff. And I wonder if you have any thoughts on these early attachments we form and how they manifest in our lives as we grow. Sure. And, you know, it's different for everybody because, you know, you, as I recall,

have a story of being rejected and bullied also. Is that correct? And I would definitely not call it bullying, but I just grew up in a very white town. Right. I mean, there was a couple instances of getting picked on that felt huge to me, of course. Not that I think I was alone in getting picked on or that white kids weren't also getting picked on. But I ran in a very white circle. And so I stood out, I think, as different. Yeah. Different. Right, right. And that can be shaming in and of itself, right? That feeling of being different.

Yeah. And so, and what about you? Is there any trauma in your background, Jess? Like infancy, childhood? Oh, yeah. Divorce at four years old. My mom moved to LA and my dad took me to live to Sweden. And then there's some addiction in my family as well.

So at four, he took you from your mother? My mom had an addiction issue. I see. She had 22 and my dad took me away from her and moved to Sweden with me because he played basketball there. And then that sobered my mom up actually. And she's had an amazing life since. Right. And do you know what shape she was in when she was pregnant with you or when you were born? Was she drinking and using? No, she wasn't. So she started being bad when she was 13, 14, met my dad, kind of became good again during pregnancy was good. And then 23 years old and I'm born and she goes back to her old bad

habits. Sure, right. So there's an example of a young mother who's probably very dysregulated to begin with, right? She's got her own challenges, and then she gets pregnant, and her ability to attune to the infant is probably not optimal, we can put it that way. infant is probably not optimal, we can put it that way. And her anxiety then gets literally downloaded into the nervous system of the infant. And that's the intergenerational transmission of even alcoholism, if you will, because people that are alcoholic almost always tell you they drink because of their anxiety. It's the social lubricant, they call it. So that's the way that some of these things can get passed down or that addiction quote gets passed down is that if we can't regulate ourselves and we don't have a caregiver that can really attune to the infant's

most nuanced and exquisitely sort of micro needs that mothers read instinctually, and they're not repaired with great regularity, you're going to get a child that is anxious or depressed or dysregulated in some ways. And as that kid grows up, if this persists, or there is a divorce, and there's more anxiety, you know, kids find drugs, alcohol, sex, you name it, to make themselves feel better with. And I think what happened for you, Monica, is that you just shut down because you felt rejected, you felt other, you felt shameful.

So you just shut that down and you overcompensated with your intellect, right? That's the way that you got through. But the problem is that these become adaptive strategies in our brains and in our nervous systems. And so we are nothing but a series of habits for the most part anyway. So these things that previously served to protect us all of a sudden start to become like an albatross because we keep doing it over and over and over again.

And in some ways, it's, quote, who we become. Because we keep doing it over and over and over again. And in some ways, it's, quote, who we become. So these things can get set up early, early on in the, you know, typically, this is very gender biased, but typically the mother-infant dyad, when the mother is doing her best to attune to that infant, to regulate that infant. And sometimes mothers and infants can't really find their timing with each other. So you get a chronically fussy baby or a chronically difficult baby because the mother herself is so upset and anxious. And it's like a catch-22. The more anxious she is,

the more anxious the infant gets, the difficult it is to soothe the infant. And then the infant, you know, at its worst will dissociate at some point. And then you've got very, very deep structural long-term problems if that happens. Yeah. I definitely pushed it all away. Like I love telling people I had a great childhood because I had two sets of families. But the truth of the matter is from four to seven when I was flying back and forth between Sweden and L.A., I would cry for three or four days by myself in the airplane at five years old. When my mom driving me to LAX to go on a plane by myself at five years old, trying to grab the steering wheel and change it and screaming at her that I don't want to leave.

Right. I mean, this is a six-year-old Jess, which is like, I could cry right now just thinking about, because I loved my whole life saying how great they are. And they are great. And I learned so much and they've given me so much. But you don't even know how that six-year-old feeling affected me. That's right. I mean, that is profound abandonment and separation anxiety. And a child that age needs a parent to rub their chest and rub your back and hold you and tell you it's going to be okay. All of that regulating you didn't get. You were just

sort of thrown in this tube and shuttled back and forth across the ocean. And I didn't know until I was 20 why I was even taken away. Oh, yeah. Wow. So I had no idea. And then I found out that my mom wouldn't sleep for a month after while I was in Sweden crying every day. Right. So there's terror in that also. And that terror could have been dissociated at some point. And then all of those affective feelings get acted out in the mime language of sex. You know, love me, want me, don't leave me. I'm not going to get too connected to people because I'll be abandoned. I mean, the whole story plays out in the sexual behaviors.

Yeah. And why I cried so much over Greg. Of course. Someone left me again. And maybe why you're so afraid to get into a committed relationship with someone because they could leave you and break your heart again. Yeah. And do you think we do this thing? I don't know if Jess specifically did it, but I kind of feel like, like you said, we're just sort of this series

of habits. And we're also the feelings that we're always feeling, we're looking for confirmation that those are right, or those are correct. So do you think Jess perhaps was building an environment in which he was setting, for lack of a better word, setting himself up to get abandoned with Greg? Yeah. I mean, these are unconscious mechanisms that drive any addiction, whatever it is. It's just, as I said, it's adaptive strategy. It's like being a rat on a wheel. So yes, he doesn't really connect with anybody because it's too painful. That's deep in the body. I mean, the deep unconscious is in the body. It's in the nervous system. And so that's why for you to become intimate with someone, to start to risk falling in love, it's going to be challenging and scary

because they could put you on a plane and send you to Sweden metaphorically. Right? Yeah. And that is too terrifying. You're going to have to maybe stop hooking up and start dating and start really in earnest declaring that you want to have a love relationship with someone, a committed relationship of some sort. And maybe, you know, I don't know what you want. But let's say you even want to get married and have a family. I mean, is that a desire you have? Or is that that's just something I'm making up? No, it's a small one, but it's not a big one. I believe in

like when Dan was talking about short term relationships, and long term, I just I want to just let it happen. I'm fine with whatever, to be honest. Well, that's important, I think, too, because that leaves you more open. But whatever happens, you have to have a desire for that to happen, which means you're going to have to cut out the extracurricular extraneous activities because energetically, you always have the back door open. Yeah, that's true. As opposed to saying, I'm stopping these behaviors. I could have made a joke there, but I didn't. Well.

I mean, it's interesting with this abandonment element, which I think so many people, even if they don't think they're operating out of some level of abandonment, they are because some of these things get passed down. Like, I don't feel any abandonment at all from my parents. Right. Your story is different. They're still together. And I never, ever had any fear that they would not be there to pick me up from,

you know, I never had that. But my mother had a very real abandonment experience at a young age. And I feel that that has had a trickle down effect or something as well, because I think I also, I mean, even in life, I mean, take it out of relationships, although we shouldn't, because I'm sure this is going to be a huge issue once I get in one, which is I constantly feel replaceable. It's a pattern I've been in for so long, probably from when I was a kid. And I have it in friendships I have it intensely where I it and it and it becomes quicksand as we were referring to earlier like it is all consuming and that I feel that someone's come in someone shiny and new and is here to replace me and that's capable of

happening because I'm replaceable and all of that I think is tied into abandonment and I do think sometimes I test I test people in that way like are you going to are you going to and then they in some ways do but it's because I put them in that position. It's not really fair to them. And I have this sense and fear that that is going to be the last huge hurdle for me in a serious relationship. Right. So that is sort of your core issue. It sounds like that profound insecurity that somehow, you know, on a deep level, you're not enough or not lovable, that you're disposable, actually. And I think that's a deep investigation for you to see where does that come from? I don't know where it originates, but I do know that at some point

at a young age, I became very adaptive and malleable to other people's personalities. Like I felt that I was good at recognizing quickly what they needed and wanted, and I could be that. Oh, wow. What did that do for you? Why did you feel like you had to do that? I mean, I think just to secure the relationships, become indispensable. Like even in my relationship with Kristen, we've been living together now because I had my seizure. We've been living together for like five weeks. So we've been like in tight quarters and already everyone's emotions I know in general are high. But we have a new assistant who's wonderful and totally special and incredibly helpful. And I love her. But I

was feeling a lot of these feelings of feeling replaceable. And I mean, from an objective standpoint, I know that I'm not doing that job anymore. So she's not replacing me. It's not even that I were like fighting for the same. There's none of that. But the fact that she's there and I'm there, I'm like evaluating how much attention she's getting versus me or how much, quote, love she's getting versus me. quote love she's getting versus me and it just like throws my whole every my homeostasis like completely out of whack and what I was realizing definitely at the beginning of our relation my relationship with Kristen because I was her assistant well I was the nanny and then her assistant stuff definitely at the beginning like I did what I always do, which is I saw, oh, she needs this. She needs a person to

come in and help her with this and do this. And I was that. And now our relationship has changed and morphed and evolved. And I'm not that person for her anymore. And I think that feels destabilizing a little bit because that was my in to feeling completely needed. So it might be interesting for you, if you haven't already, to ask her what you mean to her. Yeah, we've talked and she, of course, was perfect and handled it perfectly and really helped me see that that relationship is permanent or she's trying to help me see that. Right. I was going to say, do you believe her?

Can you hold on to that? I believe her 95%, but there is this 5% and it's not because of her. That's just me. So when that 5% comes up in relation to the new assistant and Kristen, I think in that moment,

you have to say to yourself, you know what? She loves me and I'm not going anywhere and I'm good enough. And this is when you have to start to affirm yourself and exercise self-compassion with yourself, because this is where your sense of self seems to slip. It's sort of like a sieve where it drains out. And you're going to have to shore that up internally to remind yourself that you are lovable and desirable and you're not replaceable. You are not a Dixie cup, right? You have a long-term relationship with this woman and her husband and her family. You actually mean something to them and you

denigrate that. And when you denigrate it, then you will choose guys that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy where they will just kind of use you and get rid of you because you don't think that much of yourself. Or you're so scared and worried that you're going to be left that that is an abandonment issue, by the way. It's not the same brand as Jess's, but it's still a lack of, we could call it a lack of self-esteem and a lack of the ability to have a solid sense of yourself. And there has to be a point where we have to do that for ourselves, right? I mean, we have a community, we have our friends, but not always do we have the opportunity to go to the person that you feel that with and get that validation. That's right. You know, that's a luxury. So yeah.

So it is an inside job. Exactly. Yeah. Right. And so you have to be your best man and woman in the field. You've got to be there and say, notice like, huh, there's that weird little insecure part of me that feels like that girl that nobody wanted to kiss under the bleachers. And wait a minute, I'm an adult woman. I have a great relationship with this woman. She loves me. She cares about me. I'm going to ask that voice just to be quiet or leave me alone or just lock it outside.

Yeah. And what I was really trying to do during that time was every time I would feel something negative, I would try to remind myself of, oh, what is the thing that has happened today that has confirmed that she does love me, not that she doesn't love me. Right, good. Or that she doesn't care about me. Instead, I'll pick something to confirm

that she does care about me because those are all over the place too. But my brain is obviously focusing on the ones that prove that I'm not important anymore. Right. And that's a little obsessive and that ties to the love addiction fantasy channel also. Oh, interesting. Those are kind of in the same department. So you want to be careful about those obsessive kind of looping thoughts. Yeah. Oh, I have them all the time.

So those are all in service of staying out of your feeling, which is like, huh, I feel vulnerable right now. Maybe I need to go ask her for a hug, right? Maybe I need to say, I'm feeling a little funky today. Can we have a cup of tea together? Like whatever you need to feel connected is more vulnerable again. And you know, what's lovely about what you're talking about with this relationship is that you're practicing intimacy with her, which is translatable to a love relationship. Yeah. You would be doing this with a mate also. Exactly. We are supported by Billy. Billy is a women's razor that I love.

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Go to article.com slash monica and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com slash monica to get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Do it. Do it. I know so many people struggle with jealousy in such a huge way in these relationships. And I do think all of that, the root of all that is abandonment, is feeling replaceable, is all these things. Right. So instead of going to our partner and

saying, you know what, I feel scared right now that you think someone else is prettier than me or sexier than me, or that maybe you don't love me today. And could you just give me a hug and tell me everything's going to be okay? They instead get really wildly jealous and start to do all sorts of crazy, very unattractive things usually. Yes. Yeah, that's the cycle where you're then perpetuating the unattractiveness and making it real. Right. You look like a crazy woman and the guy's like, oh, I don't want to be with her. She's nuts. When really you're just scared and you can't be vulnerable to talk about it. But I will say in that, I need this, I need that can come across as needy as well. And that's why I always say to go to other people, go to your therapist, or go to me, or go to someone

else, because sometimes it's, you're not going to be able to go to the person that is doing this to you to fix it. Well, it depends. Because one of the purposes of a love relationship is secure functioning. And our person is the person who can best regulate us. Obviously, if you're jealous 24-7, you've got some work to do. But if on occasion that happens, you should be able to go to your mate and say, this is coming up for me and you know this is an issue for me and I just need you in this moment. That doesn't mean that you're simpering and needy and constantly saying, how do I look? And am I okay? And annoying,

but it is a function of how we co-regulate each other, how we can help each other become secure in love relationships. I think that's helpful because we talk about this on Armchair Expert a lot, the fine line between vulnerability and neediness. I get scared sometimes when we talk about that, that we're encouraging people to else to prop you up so that you feel good about yourself all the time, that is a problem. Versus, you know, you're standing on your own two feet, you feel solid internally, but you're a human being. And sometimes you get scared, or you're angry, or you're hurt, or you're upset. And you want to go to your partner because your partner is your your best friend and they're the person that can most make you feel better. Yeah. I feel like you should be my matchmaker. Like you have some hot gay guy you're working with and you just happen to schedule us at the same time. And I run into him. There's the fantasy. But that's a fantasy. In the lobby. And one of his issues is that he's embarrassed how big his penis is. Jess, you're doing it right now. That's right. Exhibit A.

Exhibit A fantasy. Yeah. So there it went. Yeah. Your relationships with everyone. The relationship you have with your parents. The relationships you have with your friends. And your intimate partners.

There's through lines throughout all of them. And it's important to kind of look at those through lines because it tells you so much about you and not about the other people. It's so easy to say like, that person's making me feel like this. That person's making me feel like this as opposed to noting, oh, I feel like this a lot. I feel replaceable a lot. Right. But there is also some truth to some people bring out the best in us and some people bring out the worst in us. And so you want to be around people and you want to choose mates that bring out the better part of you. That's why there are corny sayings like this is my better half because we bring out the best in each other. You know, you hear people talk about their muse, the person that inspires them to paint or write or to be better in the world. That's what we want. This idea, I mean, I guess this all ties into

the abandonment thing, but just in your actual relationships that you've had. I mean, almost in the same way that I do with people to feel close to them, like adjust yourself a bit. With Greg, you changed your eating habits. When he came in, you changed the channel because you didn't want him to know what you were watching. You try to adapt yourself to them. And I wonder if that's connected to the abandonment. Yes. You know, Greg was vegan and then I was vegan. And then Greg liked hiking and then now I like hiking.

And I think that there is something that I liked learning about these people. And Tim was a camper and we used to camp and Tim loved art. And so I learned how to cook with Tim. And Tim, you know, loved art. And like, so I learned how to cook with Tim. Like there are certain things that I joke about I become, but I actually loved that. I liked being in a relationship to not be myself because I get in trouble with myself. What do you mean by that? When you say you get in trouble with yourself? I act out.

I'm mischievous. I've, Dr. Drew said I have a bit of manias and manic stuff and drugs and alcohol and sex. And when I find these people that love me and I love them, I love slowing down and I love learning from someone else. And I truly think all of my short term relationships were positive. But the problem with that is that that's a form of borrowed functioning. And without having- that down, well, without it's not my term, actually, it's someone else's term. But by doing that, you don't really function on your own. So in between these relationships, you're sexually compulsive, until you land on someone who sort of saves you and in parlance

of the 12 step program, they become your higher power. And there's a lack of responsibility in that for you, where you're not really taking dominion over yourself and saying, wow, I'm really going to address this compulsivity once and for all. I'm actually going to go work on AA program or an SCA program or something and see what happens if I were to dig into these 12 steps and look at what goes on for me that I cannot regulate myself, that it's either things or isms or I've got to find the safe harbor of a relationship because that's a big ask of someone, you know, that you're getting into a relationship with me and, wow,

whew, I'm so relieved because I feel safe here and I feel more regulated, but that's a lot of responsibility for somebody to take on because in your words, I don't trust myself. Yeah. Yes. That's a lot to take in and that's, yeah. I haven't heard that before. That's very interesting, this idea of borrowed functioning. Because I think when you have relationships where you're functioning well and you're highly functioning, you can tell yourself, so I do that. I'm capable of that because I did it, as opposed to looking at the whole picture, which may be in these chunks. I don't know. Well, also that I rely on my partner. My partner helps me do certain things as opposed to I need to be in relationship because that keeps me stable. It's got like the guardrails on the

bowling alley. And when I don't have those guardrails on the bowling alley, I'm rolling gutter balls all the time. Yeah. I have a problem with the, I don't know, the black and whiteness of it. I'm triggered by that because of my family and my friends and my work. And I have such a great community. So I don't want it to, I guess, come across that I'm unstable in my downtime. Well, I didn't hear that you're not stable at all. It sounds like you have done a tremendous amount of work and that a lot of this is in your rearview mirror so that you are getting more solid and stable. But you want to be careful about some of those

kind of anxious, maniacal tendencies and using substances or people, whether it's a relationship or a hookup, you know, to manage that. Or drugs or alcohol. Yeah, sure. All of it. Yeah.

It's interesting. It's also interesting. It's also most people I know are regulating somehow. And there are these conventional ways that we all know of alcohol, drugs, sex, love. But I also feel that everyone's doing it to an extent. Of course. If you have a stressful week and you have a glass of wine or you have a drink, big deal. If you can't sleep and you masturbate and you go to sleep, big deal. It's when it becomes compulsive, when it's the only way that you have to manage something, then you no longer have a choice. It's a must. And that's really when it tips over into addiction.

Right. Yeah. That's the distinction that I think is important because I think people have a hard time recognizing the difference between when it's a must and when it's a- A choice. Sure, I want that. Yeah. when it's a must and when it's a choice. Sure, I want that. So Jess, we should go to an SLA meeting together, sounds like. Wow. Are you giving us challenges, Monica? Self-made challenges. I'm all about those meetings. The hard part for me is the first step,

though, which is to admit that my life is unmanageable when I don't think it is. And that's a hard one. Sure. Well, I think it's probably become more manageable over time because a lot of these behaviors are just starting to age out of some of the behaviors is what's happening. And now you're down to kind of the core of, well, who am I? What do I want? What am I looking for? And I think,

you know, there's something nice about what you're saying about, well, I'm just open to short-term, long-term, but there's also something noncommittal about that, that I want to challenge you about. Okay. Because as long as you're noncommittal, you don't really have to say or declare, this is what I'm doing. This is where I'm headed. That's true. And I worry about that. This is what I want. Yeah, exactly. That's what I worry about for you because it's too laissez-faire in a way. Yeah, yeah. But the reason why I feel that way is because I don't think you can look for a

long-term relationship. I think they happen. I think they happen when two people are on the same page. They have similar goals and they have great communication. Sure. But you have to declare that you want that. I do want that. Okay. So I think that's helpful to say, I want a committed relationship with someone. I do. A stable life, a life where you can imagine, well, if we can ever imagine again, traveling together and having fun and building a life with somebody, which can be really fun and rich and super challenging also. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like both of you deserve to have that experience. Yeah. I think so too. I also think the STR, LTR thing is really important and good and healthy and helpful to remember. But I will say, Jess, I don't think you have that problem. I don't think you have the problem where when you meet someone,

you're deciding in the first five minutes whether or not you're going to marry them. I have that problem. So it's helpful to me to hear a long-term relationship is just a short-term relationship that never ended. That's helpful to me because I a long-term relationship is just a short-term relationship that never ended. That's helpful to me because I stumble on that. But you don't stumble on that. I think you stumble on the opposite problem, which is this is what I am committed to. This is what I want. I will be completely honest. I talk about all these four guys that have dumped me.

And I've dumped 30 40 50 guys sure and I never talk about that oh so I think I'm a little bit of a liar you know maybe even that there are a lot of people that have been interested in me that I just end and I never have those discussions it's always this poor me just of these four guys in my life it's just a distinction that I came up with right now because I wanted to say like yes I see the best in everyone, Monica, you don't. That was what my mind says. And then honestly, that's a lie. Because there's plenty of people that have tried to date me that I say no to. That's where you cut people off and your fear of intimacy. And they're not good enough. Like you're always finding some little thing that's not quite right for you.

And that's where my distinction right now that I'm coming with in the moment was that I am like Monica. Because I was always saying, I'm not like Monica. I'm not like Monica. Because I like everything about, but I like everything about those four guys. That's only four of them. But I've done this dismissive, oh, I don't like the way they eat, dozens of times. And I never talk about it. Right. Well, sometimes sex addiction can be the flip side of love addiction also,

because the sex addicts are usually love avoidant. And the love addicts, you know, are, you know, it's not about sex, it's all about the fantasy of the perfect one. So this is where they dovetail together, for sure. You know, these things become, it's just a way to stay safe in what we know, but it can get very lonely and isolated whether you're not dating at all or you're having compulsive sex with five people a day. Both of those can be quite lonely.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why they're similar. I mean, I think one thing, which I'm sure we'll touch on next week, is we started this by saying, like the whole premise of it is Jess and I are opposites. And I think really what we've the main takeaway is that we're the same.

Right. And that so many of us are the same. Yeah. It may look a little different. It may look extremely different. But as soon as you start peeling away the layers a little bit, like, it's just the same stuff. Yeah, for everyone. Okay, so we'll need our final challenge. Okay. Oh, my God, final one. Yeah. Well, let's see where to start. So I think for Jess, it would be just no hookup sex for the next six months.

Like just stopping. Wow. Really? I mean, I love that challenge, but I feel like it's not fair because of this, what we're living in. But six months is a long fucking time. That's right. But if you really, really want to make a commitment to looking at these issues, nobody's ever died from not ejaculating for six months, by the way. Oh, I can't jerk off.

Well, what if you had six months celibacy? What would that be like for you? I jerk off three times a day. Yeah, well, that's all part of the compulsivity, I think. No, it's COVID. No. Listen to her, Jess. He's making big eyes right now. You tell me what you want me to do, and I'll do it. Okay, so why don't we do this?

Why don't we say 90 days of celibacy? No porn, no masturbation, no guys, no nothing for 90 days. That's better than six months. Much better. Of course. But now am I allowed to chat and have virtual to chat with people to get to know them? Yeah, of course. That's what I want you to do. I want you to get to know people. I want you to have conversations with guys. I want you to think about what do I like? What don't I like? It would be great for you to start to make a list of the qualities that you want in a partner, you know, all the non-sexual things that you can do. And I think journaling also, because you're probably going to go through some withdrawal symptoms by not ejaculating,

masturbating, looking at porn, just get rid of all of it for 90 days. Oh my God. Wow. This is amazing because this is our last challenge. So it can be longer term. Our other ones have had to, you know, you had to complete within the week or two weeks or something. But this is convenient, Monica.

I know. Look how convenient that is. Okay. I'm deeply afraid. And I also do see me getting withdrawals and I will, uh, get, I will start journeying a little bit more and I am committed a hundred percent to no porn and no masturbating for 90. And of course, no sex. I just think that'll be a lot easier in this, in this climate right now for 90 days. You might put a filter on your computer to help you not look at the porn and all that and you know get support get program support or people support okay thank you so much yes and monica so how often have you been going on dates

well since we started this much more because they've been baked in like i said i went on a date this week and that was not a challenge that was was extra. No, you went on two. You also went on, oh, the walking one was a date, right? Oh, that one wasn't a planned date. So you shared two non-planned dates, which is amazing. That's great. Yeah. So I would say for you also in the next 90 days that you keep up the dating at a good pace because my concern for you was with this ending keep up the dating at a good pace. Because my concern for you was, you know, with this ending, then the dating would just start to fall off. Yeah.

And so, and you also need to go on repeat dates now. You need to go out with the same person more than once. I've done that for with a couple people, but I've not gone out on more than two. Right. Okay. So can you imagine going further with that guy? And again, it's really hard to make physical contact because of the situation we're in. So I sort of love this Victorian dating where you're like six feet apart walking down the street. Exactly. But I wonder at what point it would be appropriate to start to have some sexy talk with that guy via text

that you like, that you have an experience of getting closer with. You could be honest with him and say, look, my whole sex life and dating life is just a big experiment right now because I've never done any of this before. And I don't want you to feel like you're a science experiment, but I like you. I enjoy hanging out with you. And so what if the next thing happens? And check it out with him and see. Yeah. Yeah. But I think you should continue on your sexting expeditions and on your dating expeditions. And the thing is that you want to start to make contact with the people that you're having dates with.

So you start to put the intimacy and the sexuality together. Okay. Because you don't want to keep them separate. I wouldn't want you to start like sexting wildly with anonymous guys. And then you've got another problem because you're not actually connecting with anybody. Right, right, right, right. That makes sense. So while Jess is in celibacy for 90 days, you should be actively dating, starting to be sexual with the people that you're dating in whatever form that can take and moving closer into having

this experience of yourself. All right. There has been a part of me that's like, yeah, I've made all these big changes. And then thinking about a month from now and wondering like, I wonder how sticky it will be. So this is good for this to be the final challenge. Right. Is it for 90 days? For 90 days.

I think it's that you have to talk to these guys more. You have to get more involved. You've got to keep doing more of what you were doing. So if you're going on a date a week, then you need to continue that for 90 days. And it doesn't matter whether it's now the same guy for 90 days. That would be amazing. with that guy for 90 days, whether he's the one or not, right? It's like the white shirt, just put it on and go and see what happens. So you can have the experience because sometimes, you know, it's like Archer. It's like all of a sudden there's that saying that what you're looking for is always within a mile of your house. You know, it's like you're looking for your partner and it's like, oh, I've known him for four years. Or this guy, I'm not sure if he's the one, but after 30, 60, 90 days, it's like, wow, I really like him. Who knew? Yeah. All right. This has been an amazing journey and you're so awesome. Thank you so much.

Thank you both. Thank you so much. This was so helpful. I think this is extraordinarily brave and courageous of both of you. And I imagine a lot of people are getting help listening to you. I hope so. The best compliment I receive is people who are, who've been married for 20 years. And then they say, I'm still learning so much. Ah, yeah. That's been really, really helpful. Because again, and I think this is something we're learning in general about the

world right now is how similar we all are, how vulnerable we all are, how no one gets a free ride. Like everyone is struggling. Everyone's doing this thing and trying to be a person. And it's hard to be a person. Right. And even the people whose marriages look perfect or the experts who seem to know everything they know. I had a teacher years ago say to me, as a sex therapist, never let people think you're having the best sex in the house because you're not, right? Because your relationship shifts and changes. And it's just not realistic to think that. So that is about our common humanity. And that's more of what you need to keep embracing. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, thank you, Dr. Alex. Thank you both.

Thank you. Bye.