Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Patric Gagne (on sociopathy)

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

Patric Gagne (Sociopath: A Memoir) is a psychologist and author. Patric joins the Armchair Expert to discuss being a diagnosed sociopath, how sociopathy exists on a spectrum, and having to lean on her mother’s moral compass as a child. Patric and Dax talk about what it’s like to have to mask your true feelings, how everyone needs a different playbook for their lives, and the relationship between sociopathy and anxiety. Patric explains why she became so interested in other people’s lives, how she eventually found love, and finding empathy and strong feelings for pets. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by a miniature mouse. This is the weirdest intro we've ever done. In six and a half years, we've never sat side by side in an intro. That's true. Yeah, you're across from me.

I mean, we've done some side by sides. I don't trust this angle. You don't trust? That's a ding, ding, ding. You cannot help but side eye me during this. Yeah, you think I'm like angry? Well, side eyes are tricky. Do you think side eyes mean mean girl?

Do you think it means I'm gonna bite you? Plotting. Plotting. Yeah, I think plotting. Okay, this is among the most interesting interviews we've ever done. Rare. I didn't ever think in my life I would meet someone that was open about being diagnosed

as a sociopath and then add on to that. They also have a PhD in research psychology. And so our guest today, Patrick Gagne, is a psychologist and a diagnosed sociopath. And she has a book out that is so interesting called Sociopath, a Memoir. She's written in the New York Times and she's incredibly interesting. What a privilege to get to talk to someone in that position. Yes just truly truly fascinating. I think you will love it as well. So please enjoy Patrick Gagney. This ad for Fizz is only 25 seconds long but we had to pay for 30. Those leftover five seconds shouldn't just disappear, right?

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Certain conditions apply, details at phys.ca. He's an arm transfer. He's an arm transfer. He's an arm transfer. How are you? Very well. Nice to meet you. I'm Max.

Nice to meet you. Hi. I'm Monica. Hi. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Hi. I'm David.

Nice to meet you. Hi. I'm David. Nice to meet you. Hi, Monica. Hi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. I have stuff for you guys. Oh, stuff. We love stuff. Oh my gosh, good things.

What the heck is this? I'm from the South. I don't show up anywhere unprepared. Oh, I love it. Without something in my hand. Oh my god, best of classic cars. This is a very nice present. What?

What does yours say, history of wine? Fashion. Fashion. Fashion. Fashion. Fashion. Fashion. Fashion something in my hand. Oh my god, best of classic car. This is a very nice present. What?

What did you say? A history of wine? Fashion. Oh my gosh. That is so sweet. That makes me think you've heard the show or you have really good research people around you. It's a little bit of both.

OK. I've listened to a couple. I'm not a podcast person. Yeah. But what I found when all of the requests started coming in was my friends were saying, oh, you should listen, you should listen. And I thought, you know, I'm actually not going to. I want to come in without a lot of knowledge. I don't want to have any preconceived ideas of what's going on.

Totally. But I've heard enough that I know what you guys are into. Where do you live currently? I live in Florida. You still do? Well, I lived here forever. And we were fortunate in that my husband, he works in Texas, so he was able to work remotely.

And we were in this house in Westwood that I loved, but we were expanding our family. So we already knew we wanted to go. My dad lives in what is essentially a retirement community. So we bought a house two doors down from his thinking, we'll just slip it. And we got him squared away. We put everything in boxes.

I think we were scheduled to leave the following week and then the lockdowns with the pandemic happened. So not only do we live in Florida, but we live in a retirement community. And it's so bad wild. Now, okay, this is a fantasy of mine based, and I'll tell you entirely why, well, two experiences.

One was I went with my friend Trevor in fifth grade to go see his grandparents in Arizona from Detroit, and they had a golf cart, and we were allowed to drive the golf cart around. There was shuffleboard, and I remember thinking, this is it. It is. All right, I'm gonna say something,

and then I'm gonna contradict myself immediately. What I'm first gonna say is this is gonna be one of the most unique opportunities of my life as an interviewer in that I've never ever interviewed someone who identifies as a sociopath and has been diagnosed as such. I bet you have. Well, that's how I'm gonna contradict myself.

Then of course, learning about it from your book, and I am curious where this number comes from, but in the book it says 5% of Americans are sociopathic. So at the same time, I'm acknowledging certainly within 800 people, if those are the numbers I've interviewed 40 of them, and maybe it overindexes even in the fields I've talked to people. I have no idea. I think order wise, I'd love to A, find out where that number comes from, but B,

I want you to explain it to us so we don't enter into your personal story hanging onto a lot of the stereotypes I think probably I walked in with and people will walk in with. So first and foremost, where do we think that number comes from? It's the go-to number for research. I think the last place I saw it actually referenced

was the Cleveland Clinic. And here's what you need to understand about that number. Psychopathy and sociopathy tend to be conflated. The psychology field has a habit of changing the name of a disorder once it becomes too stigmatizing. Which is understandable. It's like whack-a-mole. Right, but that really becomes tricky

when you're dealing with research, and especially with sociopathy, because they have more recently, again, because of stigma, decided to reclassify sociopathy as secondary psychopathy. Oh God, that sounds way worse. god that sounds way worse. It didn't have a phase of anti-social. Here's the thing with antisocial personality disorder. A lot of the claims are sociopathy was replaced by antisocial personality disorder. What they're not telling you is you cannot diagnose sociopathy using the criteria for antisocial personality disorder. The criteria for antisocial personality disorder is separate from the criteria

for sociopathy, just like you cannot diagnose someone who's antisocial using criteria set forth with sociopathy. So although they are very similar, they're not the same, and I can speak to that from experience in that when you're looking at someone with antisocial personality disorder, it's going to be someone who has no impulse control and tends to make the same mistakes over and over again without the ability to evolve. They're going to have that juvenile record that's a mile long. They're going to have a difficult time keeping a job, staying in school, they're going to have an adult criminal record. In fact, one of the criteria for antisocial personality disorder, in order

to give someone that diagnosis, there needs to be evidence of conduct disorder, which is something that you assign mostly to children, the kids that are acting out, but acting out in a way that's particularly problematic. Yes. Or just excessive expulsions. They'll take that into account because they understand some people are going to take pity on a kid and not send them to juvie just to spare them that stigma. So they're looking for evidence like that. So vandalism, violence within the classroom, expulsion suspensions, etc.

I didn't have any of that. Violence in the classroom. But not reported. And you need evidence of in order to have that diagnosis. Gotcha. And that's kind of what sparked my interest when I started asking, who says that all sociopaths act this way? They don't.

Reading about it made me see so many parallels about so many different things and really asked myself, what are we really focusing on when we label these things? Because as I read your story, weirdly the outcome of your behavior and my behavior as an addict,

some of it's identical. We're not even measuring you and I by the outcome of our behavior, but we're really trying to figure out why we behave that way, which is fascinating. And even some of the outcome of your behavior would also mirror some of the things in other neurodivergent things like autism,

like maybe this lack of being able to see emotions on other people and this empathy. So it's this big stew of overlapping outcomes, but hopefully we're trying to track down the causality of all these things. And that's why conversations like this are so important because I'm so glad you said that because I would like to say that,

but the perception of sociopathy as it stands today, I would never wanna say the struggle with sociopathy is similar to the struggle with addiction because members of that community are going to push back rightly so because they don't understand the nuance of the disorder. And that's so key here is so many of the destructive behaviors I committed, the motivation for it was not malice. It was not intent to harm, it wasn't callous disregard for others. Nucidism. No, it was- Right, discomfort alleviated by a behavior.

Yes, at the time I couldn't explain why. Certainly when I was a child, all I knew was I felt this compulsion, do it, do it, do it, and then I would do it and it would go away and I didn't question it. I just knew this bad behavior makes the pressure go away and the way to continue to give myself these prescriptions, I'm just gonna have to slide under the radar because I don't wanna be othered. I see what that does. There was another kid in my class,

I remember he threw a desk through a window. Yeah, that's a red flag. Obviously, it's a lot happening. Yeah, he probably had trauma though. I just think everything's trauma. 100%. And I just remember thinking, okay, so I won't be doing that

because every adult descended on the classroom, rightfully so. And I just remember, yeah, I can't do that. Right, we're gonna have to come in a little softer than that approach. And also say selfishly, there is a laziness in me that is bummed as we get more compassionate for everyone, as we should, that is the goal.

We're kind of running out of like, sociopath, we all agreed, like, yeah, we can definitely just say like, oh, that person's a sociopath. You know, they're bad, they're evil. And then I hear your story, I'm like, no. It's another thing you're fucking born with that you have to wrestle with.

And my God, now I can't, at least in good conscience. And I'm like, what the fuck is left? I guess we'll have monster as this kind of fictitious, bad, evil Hitler person. And then everything else we're gonna have to be a little more understanding of. But we all know. Because here's the thing,

that reputation as evil is earned. There is a small percentage of the sociopathic personality who does commit these atrocious crimes. Like the Ted Bundy example, although I personally don't happen to think Ted Bundy was sociopathic, but it's that general bias. But make no mistake, sociopathy is a perilous mental disorder.

The traits associated aren't great. So I don't want this to be a we should all. Invite them all into your home. No, it's not that. Put a sign in your front yard, sociopaths welcome. 100%. Free food. Just like any disorder, sociopaths welcome. A hundred percent. Free food. Just like any disorder, sociopathy appears to exist on a spectrum. It speaks to the individual's ability to get the help that they need.

The destructive behavior that I began doing as early as I can remember, that was an unconscious coping mechanism that ultimately developed into a lifestyle that I was subsequently able to address because I'm a white woman of privilege. I had access to education. I had access to therapist. And a diagnosis. Yes, everything. So many people don't have that.

Well, that's what I like about your book. Your book isn't a call for America to open up their arms and offer free drinks to sociopaths. It's actually to help sociopaths. Yeah. Like I hope you're reading this book and you're identifying with it. And if you're identifying with it,

I'm gonna roll out some tools and how I have come to live a life that is free. Okay, so really quick, is there anything structurally we can observe in an fMRI that would show us the sociopathic brain? Is there any mechanistic things associated with it? I have been told that there is, and I've read some research studies on,

but it hasn't been reviewed enough for me to say yes, this is the thing that you should do, and this is where you should go, and this is how you can see the difference between someone who has psychopathy, sociopathy versus neurotypical. But they do exist, I've read the studies on how they are attempting

to advance different testings that involve brain scans and an actual look into how the different parts of the brain are affected by sociopathy and psychopathy. Psychopathy is believed to be the result of brain abnormalities that make it impossible for someone to move through complex emotional development. While these people are born with the so-called inherent emotions, joy, sadness, surprise, disgust, they're not able to progress through the social emotions.

Those are empathy, love, things that you teach children as they develop. These are psychopaths. Psychopaths. Yes. And there is not a general consensus on what those abnormalities are. Some believe it's an issue within the amygdala

that processes emotional reaction to memory. And others believe the psychopath has the inability to process oxytocin. The love chemical. Correct, and trust building. But there isn't that consensus. And that is something that I'm really hoping they'll receive more attention and finances to,

yeah, for research. Sociopaths, however, don't appear to suffer from those biological impediments. So while they can learn the social emotions, they just learn them differently. In the book, I describe it as an emotional learning disability, because that's what it felt like.

I remember seeing my sister internalize. My mother would come and say, well, we don't want to do that because that's bad and you don't want your teachers to get upset. And I remember my sister, oh no, that sounds awful to her. The thought of them being upset. Upset at her or her letting someone down. And I just remember being like, I don't care.

I don't want to go out and harm these teachers, but I don't care. I don't wanna go out and harm these teachers, but I don't care. I don't care. But also the understanding very quickly that that response is not met favorably. Right, you're smart enough to pick up social cues. This is a side note, and it's not psychopathy or sociopathy,

but they did a retrospect on the original Rain Man, who the movie was based on. Savant syndrome, right? Yes, and this guy who lives in Utah, and they had an interview from him like 25 years earlier, and then they went and revisited him, and he kinda hangs in the Salt Lake City library. He's read every single book in there,

and Leslie Stahl sits with him, and on this go around with him, he's like, "'Hi, Leslie,' and he seems to have developed "'all these kind of things that he didn't have 20 years prior and she says to the dad, it seems like he's really kind of grown. And he said, don't confuse that. He's just very smart and he's learned that if he smiles, you smile better. He has picked up over time through practice a set of skills, but his brain hasn't changed.

He is not processing your facial expressions the way, you know, that was an example of someone just picking up the skill set. And it's a great example because so many people like to talk about the sociopath mask, right? You know, like you can't trust the sociopath mask, they all always have masks on. And to a large extent, that's very true. But my sociopathic mask isn't much different

than the mask that most people. Yeah, don't we all do that? Yes. Everything's a fucking spectrum. And everyone has that front-facing personality that they put on just to exist in the world. Make life easy. The lubricant.

The difference is the sociopathic mask is always seen as something nefarious, when in reality, it's just a necessity. I understand that if I come in here and I have a flat affect, and I start asking blunt invasive questions. You're not gonna love it or maybe you would. I'm gonna, we're gonna do that.

You had a nice turn in this New York Times interview and I was like, now we're fucking getting somewhere. You said that and she said, I would like to see the interviewer. I don't know if it was a man or a man. I kinda wanna see that. He said that? Yeah, like let it rip, take off the mask basically.

Well, he asked me if I thought that being an interviewer was- Manipulative. I said, I don't know, is it? He wanted me to ask him questions about it. And it was a very fun turn of events. It was. You said, because otherwise I'm quiet,

I ask invasive questions, I stare, my effect is low. And then he invited you, and you basically just said, why do you interview people? Do you feel like you are manipulated for your job? And then there was some defensiveness, you called that out, no problem, because you don't give a fuck. He didn't like that.

It was really fun, and it went somewhere really fun. So anyways, I was like, oh, I'm so up for that at some point. But I guess, let's start at the beginning. You, at least in the book, say at seven years old, you have basically two emotions. You have anger and happiness. The inherent emotions which I learned later, there are more, and I'm remiss

because I should be able to just list them out by now, but I can't, I always forget. But it's happiness, sadness, disgust, surprise, and there's three or four more that are inherent emotions from the jump. Everyone has these emotions, including psychopaths. The ones you can remember feeling the most would be anger and happiness.

And then the rest of the time, you're feeling just very, very flat. Correct. Are you disassociated at all? I don't feel disassociated because I'm very present. I just feel, back then, I would have described it as nothingness. Now, I would describe it as tranquil.

Content. Kind of. What you're aspiring as tranquil. Content. Kind of. What you're aspiring to do. Yes. Meditation. The stress for me came from other people's expectations of me to emote the way they were emoting. And the stress wasn't, oh, I need to make these people happy.

It was if I don't do what they are expecting of me, I'm going to be outed. And then life as I know it will cease to exist. I won't be able to get and do and have the things that I want because someone's always gonna be keeping an eye on me. Yeah, your otherness would exclude you from any kind of life. Correct.

I assume it's a spectrum of intensity, right? I guess some people would have a very flat reaction to a murder potentially in front of them. Is it a spectrum like that? I think the spectrum is more in how difficult it is to learn the social emotion. So socialization is what every parent does for their kid. Typical socialization techniques didn't work for me.

It just didn't make any sense. It didn't land. Well, you want to do this because so-and-so will get her feelings hurt if you don't go to a party. It's like, okay, but I don't want to go to this. And why would she get her feelings hurt? But that just feels like boundaries. That doesn't make sense. Inherent boundaries or something. There are so

many overlapping themes to your point that yeah, it does sound like boundaries. But to me, it was, I couldn't understand propriety. Like we should do this. And the shame. I didn't have any shame about anything. Or guilt. Right. So I think the spectrum taps into how difficult it is for someone to eventually learn those social emotions and it is possible for someone with sociopathy, they just learn them differently. And you need a system, ultimately. And that's gonna be one of my last questions

is the coin that is sociopathy as is addiction. Like, I'm delighted to have it. Every part I like about myself is also related to that. We'll wrap up with that one, but in practice, the thing that interests me at the beginning of your story is this, you call it pressure. I guess as an addict, I would call it discomfort. Sure.

And you started discovering young, you would steal things. That would relieve this discomfort or this pressure. You stabbed a classmate in the head with a pencil. Oh. I think that's a good, salacious, interesting one. Yeah, I'm curious about that one. I wanna hear about that. The pressure had been building, and discomfort is a good word for it.

I think pressure is what I sort of latched onto as a kid. A need to regulate, we could agree on that, right? Yes, but neurotypical regulation techniques did not apply. I couldn't make myself feel better the way that other people made themselves feel better. I just remember being a kid sitting behind a little girl in school and I looked up and she had barrettes in her hair and I felt this, take that barrette,

you're gonna feel better. It didn't make any sense and yet I knew it was accurate. I should have started there, it didn't start with the stabbing, but yes, that's the first time you feel the relief. And little transgressions like that usually did the trick. But on this day, when I assaulted this child, I had been doing a lot of little transgressions

and they weren't working and I could feel it. As a kid, you're like, what's gonna happen, what's gonna happen, what's gonna happen, what's gonna happen. But as a kid, I had a harder time talking myself through it. There was a little girl standing next to me and she had just been getting on my nerves, as they do. And I bent down and she kicked my backpack

and when she did, she knocked out my pencil box that was full of pencils and then I just remember picking up a pencil and stabbing her in the head with it. Wow. And I remember what was problematic, other than the obvious, was it wasn't just the pressure that disappeared,

it was replaced by this euphoria. Yes. And I knew enough to know that ain't great. This is untenable. We're gonna run out of heads to stab and I already kicked out of here quickly. So you did know that though, so that's interesting. You knew this isn't good, that I like it.

I always knew right from wrong. Cognitive, it wasn't internal. That's the difference. That's part of one of the erroneous stereotypes is, oh, sociopaths don't know the difference between right and wrong. Oh, yes they do. Also, you hear sociopaths track highly empathetic, actually, if you go by the Paul Bloom definition, that actually they're quite good at knowing

what you are thinking and needing to hear from them. Because they've spent a lifetime mirroring. We're a paradox. Yes. Yeah. So of course as a parent, you're a parent, I cannot help but think about what mom's going through. So you're in a good situation at the beginning of this.

Dad is a successful music executive. You guys live in a nice place in San Francisco and there's tools at your disposal, I presume. Mom has the bandwidth to observe you and she's slowly detecting some things. She finds the box of stolen shit. How do I ask this? You have love for your mother, clearly, it's in the book.

Are you aware of her concern and panic about your behavior and what does that do to you? Are you detecting like this woman I love, my main resource in life. I'm dependent on them They're scared for me. Should I be but you don't have fear really? No, okay so the way I internalize that is I really relied on my mother to be my moral compass because I Understood I didn't have one. I didn't always

Understand social cues so I really relied on her to sort of help me navigate the more nuanced parts of social emotions that I didn't understand, like behavior aside. And I remember thinking, if my mom turns on me, and by turns on me, I mean- Exclude you or reject you? No, because she would never have done that. But if she starts to give me the look, if she starts to perceive me as uh-oh, then I'm not going to be able to rely on her as my moral compass anymore. It was selfishly motivated. It was I need to do what I need to do to pacify her because if I don't, I'm not going to be able to rely on her as a compass. I would watch her reactions to things

and be like, okay, so that's what you do when you're presented with this information check. I got that. That's how you wanna respond if somebody says this. I really turned to her and my sister for these different masks to wear so that I would be presenting appropriately. And we were living in a time when mental health wasn't a thing. We hardly had words or tools for anxiety and depression

or addiction, much less sociopathy. So my mom did the best she could, but she didn't know what she was dealing with. I would imagine she's watching you two things. You go to a birthday party when you're a little kid and all the girls fall asleep, not a birthday party, a sleepover, sorry. I think it was a birthday party, sleepover.

Okay, hybrid. And all the girls go to sleep and then you're like, okay, well, I'm bored and I'd like to explore the house. And now you're exploring their house. And then you decide, fuck, I do wanna be at home. My mom said I could come home if I want. So you just leave in first grade and you walk through San Francisco

and then you go into someone's garage and you go in their car. And by the time you arrive to mom, this has gotta be a moment for her where she goes, okay, there was some stealing, there's this. I see she's not really bonding with the other kids. She's probably very just afraid you're gonna be lonely. But now I think this is a moment where it shifts gears,

where she has to actually be pretty concerned about your safety, because you don't seem to have the fears that a normal kid would have that would keep them from roaming San Francisco in the middle of the night. Is that when she gets the scaredest? Unfortunately for her, she wasn't taking my behavior as a sign that something was wrong with

me. She was internalizing it, that there was something wrong with her. Of course. That she had somehow done something wrong, that she was to blame. So she felt all that shame and guilt. What am I doing that is causing this child to do that? And she was so emotional about it. That again, I remember being very, okay,

I knew that wasn't the right thing to do, but I wasn't expecting it to result in this level of emotional reaction. You couldn't have predicted that. I think a normal kid would have, and I'm using that term recently. But no, it didn't even register that this would be a problem.

Now here's the fantasy liberating part of your condition, which I found intriguing, is you go out, it's the first time you've been out in the middle of the night in San Francisco and you're like, this is awesome, why aren't people out all the time? It's like, totally different vibe, garage doors are open, I can explore. Some aspect of that I'm envious of,

it's like very liberating. That's so the opposite. Yeah, it's like literally what I'm reading, I am kind of making you relative to Monica. Well, this is like, there is a spectrum, these two are like on the complete opposite ends of this. I'd be so scared. I just remember that walk and subsequent walks like it,

feeling like it was a spa visit. All the pressure evaporated. I think that was because when I was alone, I could just drop the mask. It was late at night, no one was gonna ask me what I was doing, and if they did, I would have spun a story and taken off. I could just be myself. And I think that's what I was resonating with in that walk.

I loved the idea of all these people in their houses and all of the garage doors open. So it was these glimpses into lives that I could just walk up and look at like I was in a gallery. Like you hit pause on mankind. Exactly right. Yeah, I've kind of wanted to do that.

That's a fantasy. Yeah. We had a mall, hit pause and then go like snoop around people's purses and trying to figure out like detective what is going on. I want to avoid inadvertently projecting or linking what you're saying into something that's really not transferable. But I guess my curiosity is you're intelligent, you're aware murders happen, yeah?

You're aware that the world's dangerous or not? Now or then? Then. I'm trying to figure out if it's you know the world's dangerous, but you just don't give a fuck. Or that your immediate thing is so compelling that that just gets silenced. There's something to be said with cognitive knowledge and emotional knowledge.

Big time, yeah. And I think that's what was going on. Cognitively did I understand that this was maybe not the safest choice, smartest choice? Sure. But if it doesn't hit you emotionally, and we've all been there. The amygdala doesn't fire from that information. Correct. We all know the things we shouldn't be doing.

How about when you know the guy or girl is wrong for you, but it's the emotion that causes you to move forward in this relationship, even though your brain is, it's the same thing when there's no emotional connection. Or when you sit down and eat two cheese pizzas, like the brain knows you're gonna regret this, but you're like, yeah, also, emotionally I'm gonna eat this fucking thing.

Fear is fully emotional. You're right, you can know like, I should be scared, but that doesn't do anything. That's nothing. It's just what's in your body that's causing you to stop or run. And those constructs are important. They help keep the collective you safe.

Something does shift when you are moving through the world without fear. You tend to attract less danger. And of course, this is junk science. But yeah, my father used to say to me, kid, you can get anywhere in life with a confident stride in a walkie talkie. And I never forgot that. Because if you're not consumed with those things, if you're not moving through the world or really held up on fear, yeah, chances are I can just walk up and get what I need and walk out and we're fine.

Yeah, yeah, you don't smell like a victim. There's no fear to detect on you. I don't know why I'm just thinking of this, but did you see Men in Black, one of my favorite movies? Will Smith passes that test, remember all the guys are shooting at the monsters? And he's like, no, that dude's just doing pushups, I wouldn't want him coming in the gym and killing me.

But this little girl, she's seven, she's reading quantum physics. 100%. That makes me think of that scene. Yeah. Okay, so at 11, I think would be the next fast forward. Tell me about Florida and the tour of the prison and you actually get an idea of what you maybe have.

Is that the first time? I think it was the first time it really was presented to me. I can't believe that I hadn't come across that word at some point, but I don't think that it was presented to me definitively. And this is something too, I think with my personality type, I've told this story to people

dozens of times over the years. And every time I do it's, wait, what? You went to a prison in the middle of the night? And it took a while for me to remember to say, I need to preface this with, I know this isn't normal, but my uncle worked there, he was a graveyard shift correctional officer. And I had always had a fixation with Alcatraz and I think just criminal behavior, which is almost

certainly an unconscious trying to figure things out for myself. So he invited us to this prison. He could only do it after hours. And I just remember walking through and seeing all of these men and hearing another guard say, all these people are sociopaths. What's that? It's someone who doesn't learn from their mistakes, doesn't feel badly about what they did, does the same stuff over and over again. And said, if I left my wallet on the table right here

and walked out. He was like, would you go through it? And inside I'm like, fuck yeah, I'd go through it. I'm like, no, right, you wouldn't because you're not a sociopath. And if you did, Yes. I'm like, fuck yeah, I'd go through it. I'm like, no, right, you wouldn't because you're not a sociopath. And if you did, would you feel bad? Yeah, I'd feel terrible.

I'd feel so bad, who would do something like that? But I'm like, no, I wouldn't feel bad at all. And he's like, they wouldn't. Got real concrete. Yes. Okay, now your story is you got invited, but as I hear it, it's hard for me not to imagine that your mother didn't orchestrate this.

I'm not kidding. That she had some fear that you might end up in jail and that you needed to be scared straight. Because you think you're a good lie detector. She would pass a lie detector. If you asked her that question, she would say, absolutely not. It never factored into my decision making for one second.

So if she did set that up, it was latent. It was good. But you can see from the outside, like knowing what she's going through, you end up on this very bizarre field trip that no one gets to take. And the explanation sure is plausible, but to me it feels more like,

if I were the parent of a child that was really worried was gonna end up incarcerated, I might wanna let them see what that looks like. Do you know that has never occurred to me, but I'll leave here and ask her. Yeah. I remember her being as excited about it as I was. And I just remember seeing all these men

and the guards saying that they couldn't look at us. They had to keep their heads down. And we were two little girls and a woman just walking through this male prison. And I just found that power displacement so otherworldly. You know the word you wanna say. Say the word you wanna say. I don't know the word, I promise. What did you think it was? that power displacement so otherworldly. You know the word you wanna say. Say the word you wanna say.

I don't know the word, I promise. What did you think it was? Something positive. Exhilarating is what I, yeah. Exhilarating, yeah. I couldn't think of that word, but that's what it was. Right, because you still gotta hide. Even though you're out in the open,

I'm sure you have a lot of muscle memory of hiding. It's less hiding and more, I still have to mask. You have an awareness right now that you want to be truthful and not scare everyone out of your experience. You're still walking some tightrope. Right. I don't know that you'll ever shake that in life. You know enough to put it through the filter,

which is like, wow, what I really wanna say is like, that prison made me horny. Let's say that's the word. You're like, that's gonna be a little too much. Let's go to an eight on that, but still have my intention to be known. Again though, that's everyone. I don're like, that's gonna be a little too much. Let's go to an eight on math, but still have my intention to be known. Again though, that's everyone.

I don't think everyone's adjusting slightly to whatever's in front of them. Maybe I'm a sociopath, I don't know. Well, when you're reading it, I am doing that. I'm like, am I a sociopath? Because a lot of the stuff I can relate to, A, I have some criminality in my background, but I feel deeply, deeply sad

when I hurt someone's feelings. I did keep coming back to that. I'm like, no, and I can think of times this week. I do have that. And your book answered it for me. But one of my curiosities, a lot of my behavior that seemed to be sociopathic, or certainly I didn't care about the consequences,

my motivation was the world has been unjust to me. I am the recipient of violence and alcoholism and all this stuff. I didn't get a fair shake and people aren't playing by the rules with me. And so I'm not obligated to play by the rules either. And in fact, I'm going to write the justice scales. When I'm trying to conceptualize your experience, I did wonder is any of that at play? But I don't think it is. I think it's a completely different thing again with the same outcome, but I had a pretty bulletproof, wasn't a fair shake for me,

so I'll take whatever the fuck I can get. I don't remember feeling that way at all as a kid. It's tricky for me to equate it to other mental disorders because sociopathy as it stands now, people don't want to be associated with this bad word. It definitely needs a rebrand. Yeah, it really does. And maybe not secondary, it's psychopathy. That is not a good. Jesus. No, when I heard that, I was like,

guys, I'm not sure we. Didn't mail it. Did not mail it. Not sure we stuck the landing on this one. But I felt this compulsion. I remember one time seeing, I can't remember what it was, but it was like, okay, well, you gotta take that because it's right there.

And it's like, I don't really feel like taking it. I'm just tired. Meaning stealing something or taking ships? Stealing something. Okay, yeah. You gotta just take it because you can get ahead of it. It's kind of like taking the Xanax before the anxiety kicks in.

Just do it and then you won't even have to worry about it today. Or if you do, you won't have to worry about it until later. So some of it wasn't rooted in anger or grievance. It was more, I don't want to do this, but the opportunity has presented itself, and I need to take every opportunity I can. But I do remember feeling that later in life,

particularly when I was dating my then boyfriend, now husband, and he was very much trying to keep me to play within the lines, but I noticed he didn't play in the lines. And that's fine. We can have an open conversation about it. But I remember feeling, if you're not gonna play within the lines, you fucking think I'm gonna play in the line?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember stealing a car and just feeling exactly what you just described, which is fuck you. Yeah, yeah, look at me. I'm gonna do this and I'm not gonna feel the least bit bad about it, and I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna fall asleep next to you

and it's gonna be like, oh. Oh wow, yeah. That almost seems like growth though. You wanted to get even with it. It does, it does. You cared enough about. It's more emotional. Yes, it was the unjustness of it. Here I am working really hard to understand myself

and really hone in on my motivations and I'm keeping track and I'm trying to stay ahead of my prescriptions and this motherfucker's out here doing anything he wants to left, right and center. And it's like, oh, but his stuff doesn't count because he's not a sociopath. And it's like, it does count. And also it doesn't, just like my wife can drink wine.

There are things that aren't fair for me that are fair for her because I am this very specific person. So I do have to have a different playbook. Correct, but drinking wine isn't illegal or against the law or morally inappropriate. There were some things that he was doing. That's a lie, what you just told. How come you can tell a lie, but I can't tell a lie? But could I argue maybe because if he tells one lie,

it's not gonna lead to this other. The outcome will be different from his life. If I fuck some stranger and my wife fucks a stranger, those are different outcomes. I'll then fuck a thousand strangers in the next three years. She won't. So we do have a different playbook. That's true. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

If you dare. You're a good student, clearly. We shared this in common. We both are Bruins. Oh, wow. Really? And I think we probably were there at the same time. I graduated in 2000.

Yes. You did too? Yes. We were roaming the campus at the same time. How do we get to UCLA with all these things happening? Wait, how does it get di, is that later? So we're at a prison and you get a sense, okay, I have that.

I know I'm different and there it is. That's the name of it. And then does that send you off to explore or not yet? Not yet. I was still trying to figure out what I could do to keep myself in check. When I was younger, I started experimenting with smaller acts of controlled deviance.

Like as a preventative measure as opposed to a it's too late measure? I didn't have the awareness that that's what I was doing because for so long I felt very tethered to my mother as my moral compass. I'm gonna do the things that she tells me to do and no more, that's what's gonna keep me in line. But as I started to become harder to handle

and she has such an emotional range, I realized this isn't gonna work. She's really starting to suffer based on what she perceives as her failures. Those arguments are getting more and more volatile. So I made a decision, I can't tell my mom the truth anymore about anything, I'm gonna have to go this alone. It's just too painful.

And also she wasn't helpful to me. Yeah, by the way, I just thought about it in a way that I would think about it and not how you would think about it. Yes, no, it was selfish. This is not working for me. So I decided to go it alone. And one of the things that I remembered thinking was

I don't have this tether anymore, I can't rely on it. So I'm gonna have to sort don't have this tether anymore, I can't rely on it. So I'm going to have to sort of create my own tether. And one of the ways I'm going to do that is by lying. Whereas before I tried to be honest about everything because I thought I had to in order to stay tethered to my mother. Then I started lying about everything and I remember feeling so safe. And I remember thinking, everyone says the truth shall set you free, but that was never

the case for me. It always had the opposite effect. For me, lying was like a superpower I'd never been able to use. It was so easy. It was so effortless. Not, I didn't steal from you and secretly pocketing cash, but I could lie about the destructive behaviors that I was engaging and to keep the pressure at bay. And then I could take care of myself.

I would cut school, I would break into houses that were for sale and just spend time in them. And the argument I kept having was, none of these things are hurting other people. They weren't vandalizing things. No, I wasn't. And I was very mindful about that. I'm not in here destroying or causing pain

to anyone or anything. So who's to say it's bad? Oh, well, it's bad because you shouldn't be skipping school. Why? And being able to lie about that was like getting to wear a big blanket. I don't have to justify anything. What's weird is it's almost the exact same relief people feel when they finally stop lying,

which is like, oh, I don't have to hide anymore. Yes, but again, the motivation, the sociopath is always perceived as this nefarious liar. Like, I'm going to tell you this so that she'll trust me so that you won't notice. I was manipulating but not to harm someone or to get something from someone. I was manipulating so that I could continue to engage in these acts of deviance without getting caught so that I could take care of myself.

So I would follow strangers around and I would watch them through their windows and then I would just go home and get in bed. I didn't take anything or vandalize property. How did sex and substances, what is the stereotypical association with those two things? Because the temperance of both are driven a lot by fear, which you don't have, and then the societal pressure to not be a slut or whatever the thing is.

Did you find that you were more experimental because you didn't have any of those regulators on you? Yes and no. I remember having an early sexual experience that by any neurotypical definition would have been perceived as perfect. This is a person who cared about me. This was a person who cared about the experience for me.

And I remember the physical element being great, but there was no emotional connection. And I remember feeling more displaced in that moment than I ever had. It was, oh, if this is what is expected of me, I'm clearly broken in some way. I don't have this emotional connection that everybody talks about. And it was very clearly expected of me. I was back to the drawing board where I had to make a choice. Do I lie and say, I felt all of it, or do I never see this person again?

And I chose the latter. Well, if ever there was a kind of societal construct, it revolves that whole thing. Very much on one level, we're just an animal here to reproduce like all others, but what's built on top of that is so dense. Gosh, and so problematic and complicated, especially for women. So this guy that you had sex with

in the quote perfect scenario, you said he cared about you. Did you care about him? I did, but... And what does that even really mean, I guess? What you say in the book, no butterflies, no feelings of romanticness. about him? I did, but. And what does that even really mean, I guess? When you say in the book, no butterflies, no feelings of romanticness, none of those things you see in a movie.

It was very cognitive. This is a good person, a kind person. He seems to love me a lot. I did not have those feelings of love, but I remember telling him I loved him back because at the time I thought this is all I have so maybe I love you, but my love doesn't match your love, but does that mean it doesn't count? I didn't really have the tools to navigate that. Was it just this callous disregard? I don't care about this person at all. No. But I did not have those feelings of love and when I had my oldest and I didn't have those overwhelming feelings of love, I think

unconsciously a lot of us are sort of waiting to have that moment that everyone else has. whether it's a wedding or a baby being born or a graduation, these big life moments where everyone else is excited. Even though I know it's not gonna happen, some part of me has always held out hope that maybe- That'll be the time. This'll be the time.

Yeah. So when that wasn't the time sexually, I remember thinking, well, I'm just fucked, literally, and just. Yeah. And I just figured, how am I gonna have a relationship with anybody? I didn't know if I was capable.

Certainly does not come naturally to me. You have to get annoyed much easier with a romantic partner because if you spend a lot of time with humans, they're annoying. And if you don't have that deep storybook romantic fantasy in your head about justifying it, I don't know how else you overlook just the general annoyance of other people.

As a sociopath, I am just as interested in non-sociopaths as non-sociopaths seem to be with me. And that was something that I really discovered when I started to get my doctorate. That was selfishly motivated. I wanted to find out more about my personality type and others like me. I didn't give a shit about anything else and yet once I started learning about all of the other personality types I became very

interested and I think that this is something I always felt and it's why I used to love to go out at night and just look through people's windows and watch their lives playing out. To me it was like a movie. I'm so interested in all the color that you, the collective you, experience in like a movie. I'm so interested in all the color that you, the collective you, experience in your emotional world. I don't know that I want it for myself, but I'm fascinated by it. And so do I find other people annoying?

Certainly people are annoying, but I am more interested, I find, than I am annoyed. Right, so the incentive structure is still there. It's just your fascination with them that keeps you tolerant because you're interested enough to stick around and check it out. All right, you must be an incredible student that you get into UCLA out of high school.

No, I was a terrible student. Did you go to community college? Did you go to SMC? I went to a school in Florida and then I transferred over. I was a transfer as well. Wow. Wow. Yes. That's crazy.

Yeah, okay, so you go to UCLA and it's there that we start understanding, exploring, you now have a therapist. Okay, so I just wanna touch on one quick thing. I was a terrible student because it didn't ever occur to me that I needed to have good grades for anything and I remember being a junior in high school or maybe even a senior and having somebody say, you need good grades to get into school. And it was the first time it occurred to me. And it's not even like I made this assumption because I'm sure if I had

thought about it, I wouldn't have, but it was, yeah, you go to kindergarten, then you get into elementary school, you go to elementary school, you go to middle school, middle school, high school, high school, college. That's how it goes. And I say, no dumb ass, you actually have to get good grades. And I just remember feeling, oh man, but I think that speaks to this personality type where there's no real game plan as to how I'm gonna do these things. I figured out I need good grades,

I need to find a way to get them quickly. So you get into UCLA and is that where you get a therapist? Towards the end of being at UCLA is when my dad was pretty insistent that I start seeing somebody. And how soon before they, I feel like that would be a hard thing for a therapist to bring up. I brought it up.

I'd already been looking things up and it's so interesting now that I'm mentioning this. Quick segue, with the eclipse today, I was in a hotel, I've never stayed in this hotel before and I went outside by the pool area to see the eclipse today, I was in a hotel. I've never stayed in this hotel before. And I went outside by the pool area to see the eclipse. And I was the only person out by the pool. And as I looked up, I realized that building looks familiar. And this particular hotel backs up to my college apartment

where I first started doing the research for sociopathy. Really? I could literally put my hand on the wall. And it was such an interesting moment. I can't believe I'm standing here on the other for sociopathy. Really? I could literally put my hand on the wall and it was such an interesting moment. I can't believe I'm standing here on the other side of the wall. That was my bedroom right there. I just happened to be put in this hotel

and I just happened to go outside during this eclipse. What an interesting space to be able to experience. So as you learn about your condition, both through you major in it, you get a PhD in it, the only thing I compare to is I have a friend who very late in life discovered they were on the spectrum and they just kind of Rewound through their life. They're like, all right, I say I like shorts because they're comfortable, but I really can only wear shorts Okay, that's part of that taking an inventory of their life through a new lens and things are starting to make sense more Did you have that experience as you started studying?

100%. So when I heard about the term in my class, I remember feeling relief. If this is what I am, that means there's a name for what I am, there's going to be research on it, there are at least enough people to justify a whole personality type. So surely there's a treatment plan too, so I'm just going to go find it." And then it became evident that there was no treatment plan and there was very little research. So when I went to see my therapist, I was very upfront about it. This is what I think is happening. Here are the reasons that I think they're happening and let's start from there. Because I didn't want to go in hiding anything

or being cagey because what a waste of time that would have been. So it was pretty quick. Now, despite the fact you say in the book, and boy, do I relate to this, like I should have been arrested so many times, it's crazy. You never got caught, you stole cars, you broke into people's houses,

you really didn't have any of those conventional consequences. But I'm curious, even though you weren't taking on the emotional weight of having disappointed people or hurt people, was there an amount of wreckage accumulating in your life that was an incentive to try to find a treatment for this? The notion that you were in search of some treatment plan for this, to me implies there was some wreckage accumulating or something that would incentivize you having treatment. Not wreckage.

It was more logic for me. I remember feeling, this isn't tenable. I will get caught eventually. And contrary to popular belief, I recognize that being in a functioning society is a great thing. And it was something that I wanted to be a part of. I recognized that I wanted a relationship. I wanted a

house with a picket fence. I wanted to make dinners on Sundays and listen to jazz and I had these images in my head and one of them came from a house that I saw when I was young. I remember seeing this man and his, I assume, wife and they had a baby. They were opening a bottle of wine and I just remember thinking, that's what I want. What I wanted was normal, but I don't think I understood that at the time. I remember having this conversation with myself, which was, you're gonna need to decide

how you want to deal with this. No answer is wrong, just what do you wanna do? And the thought that came to mind was, I wanna do the same more. It's exhausting and it's isolating. I want to take steps to find healthier coping mechanisms so that I'm not having to rely on these largely criminal, anti-social, this is not sustainable.

Got you. And what were the tools you cobbled together? And I know Dave plays a role in this. how did you put together a system for yourself? The prescriptions helped a lot at first. So there's medication? No, my behavioral prescriptions. I wish there was medication. These prescriptive behaviors worked a lot at first, but like a regular prescription,

I started weaning myself off of them. Can you give some examples of what those were? So I'm very aware that these are not normal behaviors, but I restricted myself to stalking and breaking into homes. I said no more car theft because that's, yeah. Okay, yes. Okay, got it. So stalking was allowed and breaking in, B and E.

For me. This is kind of like SLA where you set your own definition of sobriety. Correct. So I've decided that these things are perfectly fine. Again, cognitively I knew they weren't. They weren't improvement. Well, when I went to the library and I looked up stalking,

I saw that stalking was largely based again on motivation. You're stalking someone with the intent of scaring them or harming them and I was like, well, I'm not doing that. So this is fine. I would follow people, I would watch them. I would follow them home, I would watch them. Would you get busted with people like, what the fuck? Never. Didn't I just see you at 7-Eleven?

When I was like 12, I got busted by somebody walking down the sidewalk. And it was, hey, what are you doing? And I remember turning around and really leaning into my lack of fear. When I stepped forward, it registered on the guy's face, oh, this is a child, because I stepped into what had to have been the moon.

And I remember going, shh, we're playing hide and seek. And running, knowing full well how. Fucked up. That was kind of scary. He would have had a gun. He would have shot. Seriously. I remember that moment, those little streaks of like, I like the fact that I'm not scared.

And if I had been caught later in life, I would have had some innocuous reasons. I would have made sure it didn't feel scary to that person. And then I started sort of weaning myself off. If I was doing it three times a week, I would start doing it two times a week and then one time a week. But then I noticed that in weaning myself off, the pressure would start to build.

So I would sort of try to supplement that with cognitive behavioral interventions really, really worked for me. And I feel that it would be beneficial to anyone who is on the mild to moderate side of the sociopathic spectrum because it's the behavior you want to address first. Because when you look at sociopathic diagnostics, it's all rooted in behavior. But the behavior is just a reaction to what's going on up here. And I've always found that to be troublesome because if you're a sociopathic diagnostics, it's all rooted in behavior, but the behavior is just a reaction to what's going on up here.

And I've always found that to be troublesome because if you're only judging someone based on their behavior, you're never going to get to the root cause of it. I tried to eliminate the behavior using journaling. So when I would be on my lowest, quote unquote, dose of prescription, I would start to write, I want to go out and break into someone's house because if I don't, I'm afraid I'll hurt someone. And then it was a reframe based on logic. Well, you've never hurt someone other than when you were very young, you have managed to curb these impulses both with and without prescriptions, the odds of that happening

are low. So just these thoughts, counter thoughts. And then also analysis, talk therapy. Once the behavior had stopped, I was able to sit with that discomfort and then explore that discomfort. And that was really, really helpful to not just stop the behavior, but reframe the whole picture and come up with different coping mechanisms for what was essentially anxiety related to the fact that I didn't feel the way I was quote unquote supposed to.

That's one of my big questions. What is the relationship between sociopathy and anxiety? Because on the outside, I would think you'd be completely free of anxiety. Anxiety related to things like what people think, or am I gonna get this wrong, or am I gonna be in trouble. What I was able to figure out was that my anxiety, and this tracks

with a lot of the research, one of the first researchers to really dig into this hypothesized that sociopathic behavior was related to emotional conflict and inner frustration. And I really landed on that because it was this feeling that I was supposed to be feeling a certain way and then if I didn't, I was going to be removed from my social comforts and this feeling that I had to act a certain way, I had to keep the mask on. This is like a closeted gay person. I have thought about that multiple times.

One of my closest friends is gay and he said the same thing and I said, you can can say it but I promise you I go out there and I start equating. I'll do it for you. Thank you. I play it fast and loose with these compers. Amazing. The sociopathic perception as it exists today is horrible so nobody wants to be called that but it's exactly how I felt. I have to act this way otherwise I will not be given access to these things that I really should be allowed to have access to. Once the element of, who says you're supposed to act that way? Why don't you just start telling people,

hey, I'm a sociopath and it's not what you think it is. Once I sort of realized that, the anxiety was all gone. Wow, so this is you kind of stepping into the truth. When does this happen? Does it start with Dave? Probably. And he didn't run out the happen? Does it start with Dave? Probably. And he didn't run out the door. It really started with my father. He's the one that sent you there.

Yes, look, my father is colorful. Sure. And he has a very high tolerance for pathology. Well, he's in the music business. Yeah, and it's sort of a prerequisite. So with my father, it was always, you can tell me anything and we're gonna find a solution.

With David, it was more, you can tell me anything and we're gonna find a solution with David It was more you can tell me anything, but I'm not gonna help you get out of trouble We're gonna stop you from putting yourself in situations where you get into trouble So it really started with my dad giving me the space to say I don't feel things like that and I don't have shame I don't connect to people the way that everybody else connects and yet Everyone is always always expecting me to have these emotional reactions. And I'm tired.

I just wanna be alone all the time. And some of that, what you spoke to before, you acting out because you were angry, you suffered all of this and now you're gonna, you know. Take what's mine. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were some of that creeping in. Well, how could you not resent the you?

Right. And I guarantee you that this is what drives other sociopathic behavior. The darker, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely, because again, I had everything. I had all of these resources and people and relationships. You had that you were born in a one bedroom trailer

with six other kids. Yes. Now you're on a different path altogether. Correct. And so what's interesting is that moment where your father is accepting of this news, of course my first thought would be, oh, I would feel acceptance,

but actually I imagine you didn't feel acceptance, but you cognitively knew, well, he didn't reject me. Correct. So like the story I've been telling myself that I can't exist as myself without being rejected might have some holes in it. Less rejection, because I didn't really ever care

about rejection, but just prevent it. You can't participate anymore. Correct, yeah. Yes. The velvet rope is off limits to you. My goal was to work in the prison system. You're never gonna get to do that. You're never gonna get to be a lawyer.

You're never gonna get to have any of these things. So it was more that. That makes sense. So dad, you're like, okay, he's a chink in the logic you've assembled. And then Dave is another step in maybe a different direction. And then the two of you cobbled together

some kind of strategic stuff. It was really me and my therapist seeing what worked and seeing what didn't because there is no treatment plan for sociopathy. In fact, one of the reasons why it's rarely diagnosed is because the sort of unspoken understanding in the prison system and the juvenile delinquent system is as soon as a kid is diagnosed as antisocial or an

adult as sociopathic or psychopathic, they're considered irredeemable. There's not going to be any treatment plan because they've already written it off. So it was really just us trying to figure out based on my experience of things and what worked for me and what didn't, what's the best way. But the number one thing that was the most beneficial to me was normalization, not of behavior, but of feeling or lack thereof. Once it was, hey, you know what? I don't feel anything and that's fine. Right, right, right. Then your anxiety was gone. You had to practice. I had to practice. I don't practice anymore.

Right. And I thought this was really interesting. There is a commonly held belief that a therapist should be extremely empathetic and emotionally invested. How did your approach differ and what do you think is the strengths and the weaknesses of being a therapist who is on the sociopathies scale? I remember sitting in clinical practicum with someone else who was talking about how they were seeing someone that they didn't like. I can't remember the exact example, but it's like,

she talks about getting her nails done all the time, and I can't stand people to get their nails done all the time. But I just thought, how the fuck do you factor into this? You're not there to co-sign what this person's doing. And I remember a lot of work spent on helping people withstand their patient's transference, which is what the patient projects onto their therapist.

So you're not really mad at me, you're mad at your mother, and you're projecting that onto me, and how we deal with this in therapy is for me to observe that and say, hey, I'm noticing the feelings you're having about me right now sort of resemble what we talked about last week. But the problem is a lot of times therapists,

as soon as that hits them, they get defensive and angry. And so they have to find ways to compartmentalize their own emotions so that their emotions don't usurp those of their patients. I remember being like, I'm all set on this. So when patients would like let it rip on you with some transference, you were unruffled. Completely, but interested, observant.

Hey, are you noticing that you just called me a bitch, but that's the same thing you used to call your mom, as opposed to, I can't believe this woman just called me a bitch. I didn't have those reactions. You could see objectively. Right, I was a volunteer grief counselor here and there, and showing up at places where people had just been

through absolutely agonizing, traumatizing events and being able to go in and sit and allow them to tell me everything in detail and they didn't have to worry that I might start crying. You know, as a therapist, if you get emotional, you get emotional, but how I perceive that as problematic is if I start crying while you tell me your story, you're gonna immediately wanna care take,

or you're gonna immediately wanna make me feel better about the story you're telling me, and they don't have to worry about me. I'm a vessel, I'm not going to react to anything. You can tell me anything. I'm not gonna judge you for it. I'm not going to have my own emotional reaction that matches yours.

Well, that's a sidebar. You found that as you've now moved through the world being very upfront about being a sociopath, people start telling you really crazy, random stuff. Like a guy at a party said, I think about killing my wife all the time. I've even explored through a friend if they knew somebody.

Wow. What do you say to that? I am like stifling a laugh. That's such a wild thing to hit with. Because it's wild, yes. I remember really leaning in and asking, oh wow, yeah, tell me about that. Wanting them to feel just very comfortable, easy breezy.

Now, the reason you know that is because it was discussed in an interview and what did not get discussed was my reaction after the fact. And what I noticed is that a lot of people were very angry at me for not doing more to protect. Intervene. And yet, who's to say I didn't? I actually did.

The reason that I kept that man speaking is because I wanted to find out where he lived. I wanted to know his wife's name. Tell me how you wanna do it. Like, oh, tell me about her, she sounds awful. And I got him to tell me all these things so that when I left the party, I called every single person I could think of in law enforcement. I said, Hey, this guy has been saying this. He's been doing

that. And I remember stalking this woman to make sure that she was okay. But what was interesting to me is that by virtue of my sociopathic diagnosis, this woman heard this man say this at a party and she did nothing. When in fact, that's not true, but that assumption is automatically made because of my diagnosis. Well, I can even gnarlier on that.

There's a paradox there, which is the person that was as judgmental of you is the exact person that no one would ever tell anything to. So they're not doing more either. They're just never getting the truth. Again, the parallel I saw was like, that's why I love AA, is you can go in there and every one of us is a scumbag.

We've all done all the shit. And as a place where you can be fucking honest and no one's there to feel morally superior to anyone else. It's such a breath of fresh air. Like I couldn't have made it to 49 without that place because of that. I had too much stuff to unload that I needed other people to be able to handle and not be judgmental of.

So I personally see the value in that. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We got to circle into Dave and how you did find a version of love that evolved through Dave and then also having kids. David. David. He hates Dave. Oh, that's so funny. We have a friend named David who also hates Dave.

So at one time my father's Dave, my brother's Dave, and my stepdad was Dave. So one was David, one was Dave, one was Barton, had to go by his last name. Obviously the last Dave, my stepdad, had to go by Barton. But that's how it was decided. I don't really know that any of them had a preference other than we had to distinguish them.

Okay, so David, how do you come to experience something that you would label your version of love, or how did that grow? Well, we met when I was 14, so really young, and I'm grateful for that because I don't think that we would have been a match later, but I remember at that time I felt very isolated. I was looking for a buddy to kind of bounce stuff off of,

and in that moment he just happened to come into my life and he was that buddy. I could tell him anything and he didn't judge me for it. He just took it in and rolled with it. And he looked at my actions objectively and he would let me know if he didn't think something was a good idea, but it was not met with any type of negativity. So we dated for a summer, you know, I'm 14 years old, but it was so matter of fact, my feelings about him when I met him.

I remember thinking, my name is Patrick. I am attending this summer camp. I just met the guy I'm gonna marry. I'm gonna have pizza for dinner later. I remember writing it in my journal, but it didn't feel like what all of the girls that I knew, oh, you know, this romantic love, and I know I'm just gonna marry him.

It wasn't that, it was very matter of fact. You just sit around wondering if he was thinking about you or talking about you. No, and so when we broke up, it was more like a, that's weird, I really thought I was gonna marry that guy. So strange. I never had a feeling like that before, and it was so pronounced.

I wonder what that was, because that was so true in the way it came through. But we never really lost touch. And he went one way and went the other. And I lived an entire lifetime before we got back together. And when we did, we had this wonderful honeymoon period. And then reality set in, which is I have this personality disorder and I'm really struggling with some things. And David really had a hard time not taking it personally. So for him it was, I don't emote the same way he does, therefore I don't care about him as much as he cares about me. And everything was seen sort of through a very egocentric lens, not

in the sense that he was in the wrong, but I think it's a very relatable feeling. If you go in for a big hug and the person doesn't want a big hug, your instant reaction is, oh, I guess she doesn't like me very much. But I'm just not that person, but I've never been that person. So that was a struggle.

It's you have to take yourself out of this equation. In order for you and I to work, you have to see that you are one type of person, I am one type of person. We love and demonstrate that love very differently. Neither way is right or wrong, it's just different. And if you were expecting that one day you are going to fix me, we should just stop.

No, it's just not. The irony is that's all relationships. And that's what I've heard, yeah. It's just that it's so clear here and there's no arguing like, okay, you have this personality disorder. It's almost helpful. Exactly. You're never gonna get what you want. You either accept that and we move forward. But I think when you have this neurotypical relationship, there is this fantasy belief that no, you will end up manipulating them.

Yeah, and we have limitations too. Of course. In the exact same way that also cannot be transcended. That's why I wrote this book because there are so many relatable elements to this. And I think that if the sociopathic camp and the non-sociopathic camp could just drop it for a second and get together and sort of talk, you would see how much we could learn from one another. But with David, he did have an argument, but you're doing illegal shit,

and it's my job to protect you. It always came from a place of morality. The things you're doing are immoral and I need to help you stop doing those things. So he had that really effective logical argument that was tough to push back on. But ultimately I need to wanna stop doing these things for myself.

I would've just said the things you're doing are illegal and are gonna end up getting you incarcerated. I would not argue with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's leave morals out of it for you. Yeah, again, he's using an argument that works in his brain. Italian Catholic, Italian Catholic. Oh, this is great.

Talk about, pull her into the spectrum. Yeah. Emotional all the time. And big emotions. How did the children, so you already touched on it. You have a child and you're not feeling those feelings you see on TV or read about in books. Does that scare you at all? You don't get scared.

I was pissed. Cause that was your last ditch effort. That's my last one. Yeah. I was so angry at myself for allowing even the tiniest bit of light to shine through. Come home. You should have known, and because you put your faith

even slightly in that, this kid's gonna suffer because now you're pissed off and I was so angry but then once that anger subsided it was oh you know what I just need to get to know his personality and again the curiosity the oh look at how he does this stuff and processes these things it's so interesting and then it was effortless after that. So many women talk about the baby stage, like, oh, I just, I love the baby stage, I wish we could go back to the baby stage.

No, I like having someone who can tell me what's going on, what's wrong, what they're feeling. I think my personality was definitely working against me in terms of a baby's crying and you have to figure out why. I don't know. I can't read this. Yeah, if there's any responsibility that feels uniquely centered in empathy,

it is that one. You're unhappy, what is it? Did David need to be a little more involved? He was so involved, and I'm really grateful because he was. The interpreter. Yeah, he was. And then once I was able to see enough

of those interpretations, then I caught on. You could log them. Yes. Were you afraid at all before you had your kids that those compulsions would arise in the same way or that you might wanna hurt them or any of that? I was so grateful that I did not have those feelings, but I do know that they exist.

My bridge to empathy started with sociopathy. So the idea that there are other women who are afraid of potentially hurting their kids, I can extend that bridge because I know what it's like to have an impulse to do something that I know I don't really wanna do. Okay, my last question is, do you have gratitude for your sociopathy

and do you have resentment? I really have so much gratitude for my sociopathy and the opportunities I was given to not just experience it but also observe it and come to understand it because one of the reasons why I wrote this book is because I'm trying to not discount the harmful extreme types, but to just include all of the other not so harmful extreme types, but to just include all of the other

not-so-harmful extreme types. To let people understand, this personality type can be used destructively, but can also be used constructively. I see my friends grapple with guilt, and I'm really glad that I don't. I see my friends grapple with shame. I have a friend who I don't know that she'll ever get out of the shame spiral that she's in every day over things that I perceive to be so trivial. Like who gives a shit? It's okay. You shouldn't be suffering from this self-loathing for what? And I never had that, that I can recall.

So I have so much gratitude. I do wish that I was able to connect with people. People tend to judge sociopaths because they don't connect to others. Sociopaths don't connect because they can't connect to others. And that is a big distinction. Don't and can't, one implies a choice.

Yeah. Exactly. And that was hard for me. I remember graduating and having everybody coming up to me, aren't you excited, aren't you excited? Aren't you excited? And I just didn't internalize any of that. But I wanted to be excited.

I wanted to have those feelings. I see other people and how they're experiencing it. And it was very isolating. No, I'm not. And how do I explain this to you? You're coming in and you're so excited for me. I can't make you understand I don't have that. That happens with neurotypical people.

Makes me think immediately of Wednesday. Oh, Jenna Ortega. Jenna Ortega. She has this enormous meteoric rise and this obvious talent, and everyone around her is so excited in the pressure of internalizing that excitement. It's not possible.

It's interesting that you should bring up Jenna Ortega and Wednesday, because people ask a lot about sociopaths in pop culture and how they're portrayed in cinema and television. How do I feel about that? And I've always been frustrated by these one-dimensional characters. And I said, but one has recently risen to the surface and it's Wednesday. That's so true. You understand that Wednesday Adams checks every single box on the sociopathic checklist,

but she's also capable of developing close relationships. I understand that Wednesday Adams checks every single box on the sociopathic checklist, but she's also capable of developing close relationships. She does it differently, but she does it. She loves her parents. She's sad when her pet is taken from her. It's not your typical pet, but she's sad nonetheless. She's loyal. She goes all in for her friends.

And what people don't understand is that is sensationalized for sure but that is a far more complete picture of the sociopathic composite. It's not just the bad stuff, it's all this other stuff too. When I saw that I was really happy. A, I love that show, it's one of my favorite shows and to me it seems so obvious why so many women would love that character because it's completely liberated from people pleasing societal pressures on women to make everyone feel comfortable all the time. And so many women would love that character because it's completely liberated from people-pleasing societal pressures on women to make everyone feel comfortable all the time. And you can tell all neurotypical women

are feeling the weight of that all the time and they're looking at this person going like, could I really just maybe do exactly what I want and not have to fucking worry about how it's impacting everyone around me? Children too, I can't tell you how much joy it brought me this Halloween to see all of these children, not just wearing her costumes,

but taking on her personality. Sure. I remember looking at one of them and smiling, and she just. Good for her, stone-faced you. Went all in, committed, and I was thinking, I'm so happy that you have chosen this emotional outlier as your Halloween hero, and you are completely all in. that you have chosen this emotional outlier

as your Halloween hero and you are completely all in. It's also how I introduced the subject matter to my children. They have a peripheral understanding, a working knowledge of the work I do and the book that I wrote. But when we sat down to watch Wednesday, I just let them watch. They connected the dots. They're like, mommy, this is like you.

Really? And I was like, yes. I'm the blonde version of her. Yes, surely I'm not going quite as extreme as she is, but it's a really interesting cocktail of cold and warmth that she has. And it really is true. You just reminded me, and I'm glad you just brought it up, because you said in the book,

it's very common for sociopaths to have the feelings we would expect for them to have about humans for pets. Yes. What is the explanation of that? I can't tell you. There's been some research where some of the most prolific serial killers have had very intense bonds with their animals.

And certainly there is also research that indicates that early psychopathic behavior typically presents in early mutilation of animals, torture of animals, and I'm not discounting that, but these are two truths that cannot be held. You can't say that this person is a psychopath, therefore they're completely incapable of any type of bond. They're harming these people, and yet the feelings they have about their pets

is insurmountable emotionally to them. There needs to be more research to connect those dots. Also, there's probably some temptation to weave in any observation as being a part of the ism, which also could have nothing to do with it. So I have my own armchair theory about people who love animals a lot. Some people push back on this, but I have found it interesting that if people have had really complicated relationships with parents that are very pluralistic or hard to figure out

their real motives, the joy of being able to give love to something that's not gonna try to manipulate you back, we do want to send love and that it's just too high risk for a lot of people who have been in situations where they're just exploited every time they do that, that of course this thing would appeal to you. It's a completely non-manipulative creature that you're able to share love with without any fear of it being leveraged against you.

And I could apply that to someone dealing with sociopathy or psychopathy. You still want to love something, but you can't do it in the way everyone else would accept it. And here's this very non-complicated furry thing that you can pick up and hold. It might not even be part of the condition, but also make sense for the condition. I don't know.

They're not gonna judge either. So you have all of these antisocial tendencies. You have flat affect. You don't ever have to wear a mask around your animals. I have noticed that for me, dogs are tricky because dogs- They're empathic. Yes. And they really want to show you how much they love you all the time.

And I have struggled with that. And I try to be mindful. You had a Ferret. I love that Ferret. But see, she was so mischievous. You have cats. She was a little shit too. Oh, God.

She was such a thief. She would go out the door. They are the ultimate thieves. Years after she died, I found treasure troves behind the couches and she would gnaw the heads off of our Barbie dolls and drag them down the hall to whatever trove that she had decided she was going to put it.

We'd never see it again, but they love shiny objects. So anything gold, silver, if you left it out, it would be gone. It's gone. She'd take it. Erin had two ferrets and he'd have to pick up the couch like once a week to find everything in the house that was missing. Oh my God.

So do you like cats too? I do. For all the reasons I don't like cats, you like cats. I'm sure, they don't care. They're indifferent to you. They're indifferent. They will eat your body within 24 hours of death. 100%.

We just learned this. 100%. Yeah, meal's a meal. They're not sentimental. They don't care. They're not like, this person wouldn't care, they're dead. And I have the meanest catalyzed. I shouldn't tell this story, but I'm going to.

Yeah, do it. Take the mask off, whatever. I was bored and there was this plea for a foster, for kittens, kittens, can we need somebody to foster kittens? And I've never fostered, but I was like, all right, what am I doing? That's even the scale. Yeah, sure.

This'll buy me something. Yeah, so I bring these kittens home and they don am I doing? That's even the scale. Yeah, sure. This will buy me something. Yeah. So I bring these kittens home and they don't have their mother, their mother's gone. And one by one, they just start dying. And I'm taking them to the rescue place and I'm rushing them like something's wrong, something's wrong.

And every time I did, I was met with like, yeah, it happens. Like you're not even gonna try to save. And I remember one kitten was crying, obviously, in pain. And I rushed to the rescue. They took the kitten back. And I heard the kitten in pain and pain. And then it just stopped. And I'm like, you just killed that cat.

And the guy came out and he goes, sometimes these things happen. And I just was like, got it, pal. So there was one cat left, black cat. And I was like, you're not dying on my watch. So I took him to my vet. I got him pumped full of every vitamin, mineral, antibiotic known to man.

And I watched over him and got him to a point where he was stable and then kept waiting for the rescue to call. They didn't call. And then finally, six months later, they call and he kept waiting for the rescue to call. They didn't call and then finally six months later, they call and he's sitting in my lap purring. I have the rescue on the phone and they're like, hi, we're calling about the last foster kitten.

They said the other ones died. What happened to him? And I was like, he's dead. Oh, wow. Well, I mean, look. Cause they said we want you to bring him in for a checkup. And I was like, you're not getting your hands on this cat. Yeah.

The last thing, what intrusive question would you want to ask? What I would ask you? Yeah. Oh man. We don't have to do this, but I'm curious. I know we don't. No.

I would want to know what was your worst behavioral choice? Oh, sure, sure, sure. Well, I tried to rob 7-Eleven. How'd that go? It didn't go well. I kept my helmet on and I had a prop gun. I told him to give me the money and he goes, fuck you.

Clearly this poor guy had been probably robbed several times. Somehow he knew I wasn't the shooting kind. And then I panicked and raced out of there and I had to put a handkerchief over the license plate on my motorcycle. But I don't even know that that's the worst one. That one just comes to mind where I could have gone to jail for sure over that. And a student at UCLA. While you were a student? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my motorcycle. But I don't even know that that's the worst one. That one just comes to mind where I could have gone to jail for sure over that.

And a student at UCLA. While you were a student? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Was this the 7-Eleven in Westwood? No, this was the 7-Eleven at Wilshire in probably seventh-ish in Santa Monica. And I specifically went there

because I never went to that one. I always went to the one at like 20th in Santa Monica Boulevard. So many, terrible, endless. I'm just curious because that would be my deep dive. Talk to me about everything. And it's tricky, because these invasive questions, people don't want to answer,

or they want to take a beat before they answer, and I get that. But actually, if we were at a dinner party, I actually would live for this. I'm virtually doing the same thing you do. Which is like, great, great, great, let's get into the trauma. What happened in childhood?

Something happened, what happened? I'm almost bored by anything short of that. It's interesting, especially when it comes to destructive behavior, because to your point, you knew that what you were doing was wrong. I covered my license plate. But my understanding is nothing exists in that moment between the behavior and what's on the other side, which is the alcohol or the drugs or whatever it is you're after, but there is something that exists in that it's almost like the

trapeze where you let go of one and you haven't quite made it to the next. That's the part I want to explore. Because there's so much in that moment when you were in that 7-Eleven and the guys screamed, fuck you. There's so much more in there that was happening and I would want to dig into all of that. Well, that was one that really reeked

of my sense of justice. I was obsessed with this movie Thief by Michael Mann. My pattern was I would get hammered, my girlfriend would go to bed, I'd get even more hammered, I'd watch Thief, and then I'd become obsessed with the notion of like, I deserve to have money and I don't know how to get it and I'm gonna take it.

I just have to be willing to do it and I'm a fucking pussy if I don't do it and you're a coward and all this stuff about being a boy too and not tough enough or brave enough. And I would just whip myself into this lather of like what a fucking scared little boy I was if I didn't go just take what I know I want. And I'd be hammered and I would just make these decisions.

Like now is the time. So you don't get the money, you leave the 7-Eleven. The headline's the 7-Eleven. The real story is the fact that I didn't T-bone a car and die riding my motorcycle, because now I'm like adrenaline through the roof. I'm running away from a 7-Eleven I just tried to rob. Him saying fuck you is a little sobering.

Now I'm racing away from 7-Eleven. I've got about, I don't know, 12 blocks to go. And part of my brain's screaming, don't drive erratically, you'll get pulled over. The other part is like fuck everything, get home and get off the street and get into your bed and lock the door and let's hope that nothing ever comes of this.

And so that ride home's probably the most dangerous aspect of the story. I was riding as if I was already being chased by the cops. See, that's so interesting, because what I interpret is that there was some part of you that wanted to be chased by the cops. You had no control over your addiction, but if they had picked you up and put you in a jail cell,

you would have had no choice. They would have controlled it for me. Yeah, because the drive out, when you know that you're basically putting a target on yourself by driving that way. Well, yes, but I don't think I wanted to get arrested. I don't think it was conscious. Yeah, yeah. I'm doing something that's counter to the goal

of not getting arrested to get into a detail. The plan was I would get that money, I would drive a block, I would rip the bandana off the license plate because clearly if I'm driving through Santa Monica at two in the morning with a bandana over my license plate, I'm gonna get pulled over. So part of the plan was to,

the second I was out of frame of any cameras or anything, I was gonna get that bandana off. But then once I was on the bike, we're like, nope, stopping for the bandana is more risk. We just have to go a million miles an hour and get off the fucking street. And what is that expression? The mind is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master.

And I think that your mind was probably acting as a really great servant in that moment, where it was doing the things that your logic was telling you to do. But I remember there is a scene when I made the decision to jump out of this second or third floor balcony at UCLA. And I knew I wasn't gonna die.

But I remember afterwards, this fleeting thought is, I was hoping I'd break a leg, because I knew I wasn't gonna die. But I remember afterwards this fleeting thought is, I was hoping I'd break a leg, because I was thinking, if I could just be in a wheelchair, I couldn't do these things. It was so fleeting. But again, I obviously didn't want that, because there are much more effective ways to make sure your legs get broken,

than jumping out of a window that I knew God damn well wasn't gonna deliver. But there's some part where that unconscious part of your brain is working, but the conscious part is working harder to make sure that you don't self harm. Yeah, where you and I would differ is that hovering above all of this at all time was my mom.

Wow. While I'm racing home, I'm like, my mother would be like, what happened? I gave him everything and I loved him. And why is he being this dangerous and he's gonna die? Like the voice of my mom and the responsibility to my mom and my mom would want better for me. Like the mom, mom, mom, mom, mom was like constantly joining me on the motorcycle ride. Wow. Have you ever diagnosed someone else as sociopathic just from being around them?

Yes. The interesting thing about the PCL, which is the assessment used for diagnosing psychopathy and sociopathy, it's a conversation that you have with someone else. That person doesn't realize, otherwise you could say, have you ever done this? And they're gonna, yeah, it's a bias. But you have a conversation with someone and you have those questions in the back of your head,

but they don't know you have those questions. So you're just rolling through asking and getting this information. So have I issued a formal diagnosis to someone else who didn't necessarily want it? No, but there have been tons of times where I've been sitting across from someone and I'm thinking, oh yeah.

Yeah, that was the same question I have was like, within 30 seconds, I know someone's an addict. I'm not supposed to, the laws of AA, like only you can diagnose yourself as being an addict, but I'm like, yeah, this person, they're wrestling with this. You know what it is? It's the lights are on, but no one's home, kind of, where you're saying all the right things

and doing all the right things, but you can't tell me your kid's birthdays. Just little. Ah. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Oh. You weave it through really chill.

Like you get him. March 27th and December 19th. December 19th. You get them talking. They're gonna fall for the bait of, oh yeah, a good person loves their kids. You get them really focused talking about that and it's like, oh, that's amazing.

Wow, they sound like an Aries. When are their birthday? And then you see they have no idea. A little panic. And then the answer is, oh, sometime in the summer and again, you normalize it. Where it's just like, yeah, totally. everybody forgets, it's no big deal. And again, is there manipulation at play

with that type of discussion? Yes, would I do that if I was in a clinical setting? If I was in the prison system, maybe? Right. No, if I was sitting across from someone who was earnestly trying to figure it out, no, you don't employ those tactics, but that's how that test is designed to be administered.

It's designed to be administered in a way the person on the other end does not know they're be administered. It's designed to be administered in a way the person on the other end does not know they're receiving it. It's intrinsically manipulative. Yes, in my case, I did know that I was receiving it, but I didn't know what the questions were. It was just a conversation. Does your guard go up when you recognize someone else

is sociopathic? For me, it boils down to how aware are they? Right. So if you're sitting across from someone and you can tell right away they're an addict, if 10 minutes after you make that assessment, they say to you, just so you know I'm an addict, you're like, okay, so they're on the path,

they're doing the work. So someone that's completely unaware of their own sociopathy is probably a little scarier for you even though you don't get scared, but whatever word we would use other than scared. Avoidant, avoidant. Or just. Mindful. Yes, a lot of this personality type speaks to people

who would not really believe that they, so I don't know if you're familiar with the term self-objectification, do you know what that is? No. When you self-objectify someone, basically, if you're my self-object, you are not a person with a life outside of me. You are just an extension of me.

This is what narcissists do, right? Like you are a device by which I see my reflection or something. Correct. So that's really what pings for me because that also tracks with sociopathy, not, okay, so let's see how I can get this person to do my bidding, but they truly don't see you as someone other than them that exists once they stop looking at you. So if they are engaging in behavior that is harmful to them,

they will also be engaging in behavior that's harmful to you because you are an extension of them. So that's what pings for me. Yeah. And just that poverty of insight also, where you can tell this person, sometimes they're aware that the things that they're saying are lies, but other times that's not true.

And I bet it's not even registering for you that it's not true because you've told this lie so many times that it has become real for you. I have a really, really hard time with denial of anything. You wrote the best New York Times piece about your husband, does this overlap with this? Yeah, oh, I wasn't gonna get into it, but we absolutely can. I really like to know how to orient myself in a situation.

So if I'm around someone who is in complete denial of something that is absolutely clearly going on, it's problematic. Cause I like nothing's off limits. Let's just talk about it. So choosing to deny reality doesn't make that reality any less real. It just makes you less safe within that reality. And that's how I feel around people who don't have that self-awareness to understand, no, this is real.

They're so attached to the lie that it's no longer a lie for them. Well, they're having confirmation bias. So they're excluding everything that would counteract their lie or story. You can call a story a lie or a lie a story. And then they're seeing proof of it where it doesn't even exist sometimes. No, and they're only gonna seek out people that- Confirm. And those who don't are the enemy

and need to be eliminated at all costs. Yes. I don't like to be anywhere near that dynamic, which really was a problem for me. Here is my husband, who's having feelings for another woman, and I really understood it. She is neurotypical. She's caring. She's

perceives his needs long before he does, but not in an oversteppy way. Just super nurturing. She is who she is. Yes. And I can tell that there's some part of him that's like in another life, this would have been my wife. And by the way, in another life, it very well could have been, maybe should have been. And I wanted to talk about it and it was denial. Just no, no, no. And that was a problem because it's, okay, so let me get this straight.

I have to be hyper aware of everything that's going on with me. I have to be hyper honest about it. I have to tell you when I'm having destructive impulses, I have to deny those destructive impulses. I'm spending all this time trying to figure it out. When you do something naughty, you have a little coin you put on his desk

to say like, I've done something naughty. We can talk about it or not. He sometimes chooses to not. I think that's generous. Rarely does that. Yeah, he really does. Okay, you're being kind in the art. Yeah.

He wants to know. He always wants to know, but that's the thing. He wants to know every little thing. So that is my requirement. And this is the softball of softballs. You're obviously having feelings about this woman. We can talk about it. It's okay.

And just, nope. And that was really tough because, so what am I supposed to do now? Pretend I don't notice this? I'm not upset by it. This is his stuff. He is an Italian Catholic and he was raised as many people were raised to believe that marriage is a sacred institution and if you find yourself so much as half glancing at another attractive

person, something's wrong. Talk about guilt. He's obviously riddled with guilt, something you aren't feeling, so it's confusing. His guilt is keeping him from talking about it with me, and he's not aware of that either. Whereas I'm someone that's, if you find someone attractive, let's talk about it. Let's have that conversation, because we're all human beings.

And my understanding is that animals that naturally mate for life are never tempted to go like. They're not fighting it all day long. Right, the American cranes, they mate for life. I don't see those cranes like sneaking out and then coming. So what that tells me is human beings have to choose monogamy. It's not something that comes easily. You have to work at it.

Here we go. I get to say it as an anthropology major, our history is dominated by not monogamy. So yeah, it's a choice. Esther Perel says it best. Monogamy is something, basically everyone wants it and everyone's betraying it. She says it very eloquently.

I think betrayed is spot on though. And I think it's eloquent too. I just wish that more people would acknowledge that. Oh, universally reviled and universally practiced cheating. Yeah, the concept of love comes up so much with sociopathy. And when I've asked how I experience it, I equate it to homeostasis, something that's mutual beneficial to both parties. It's not ownership.

It's not possession. It's not ego driven. There's no power dynamic in it. And I feel as soon as power comes into play, it's not love anymore. Now it's dominance. And I feel that jealousy as power comes into play, it's not love anymore. Now it's dominance. And I feel that jealousy and possessiveness stems from that, because what it boils down to is, if my wife is looking at another man,

then she's going to give her attention to that other man. The attention that she's giving to me will be taken away. So what that says is, I need her attention. You need that attention to fill some void in yourself. It's no longer about me at all. It's about what you need from me to feel better about yourself. It's that I feel less than if you find another man attractive, when in reality it really has nothing to do with you.

I like ravioli and I also like manicotti. Like these are two things that can coexist. Which is not to say it should be a free for all. If you make a commitment to somebody, you should stick to that commitment or you should let that person know I'm no longer interested in having this commitment. I believe that.

But I also believe it's important to be honest about how you feel. If my husband finds someone attractive at a bar, I always say a bar when we rarely go, but like even on television, I encourage him to talk to me about it because I want him to feel like he can share that. It's okay, the priest isn't gonna storm into the room,

this isn't a test that you're gonna fail. You're allowed to find other women attractive, it's okay. And I'm also allowed to find other people attractive. That's usually met with, no, you're not. But again, that's something else we can explore. Okay, so let me break this down. Why am I not allowed? Well, because then I will be marginalized.

So it's not about me, it's about you. And it's just interesting. And I think if more people had these open conversations, relationships would thrive because as it stands right now, the second you start to develop feelings for someone, the marriage is over, or I've done something or he's done something, when really it's just normal. Well, this has been a fucking party, Patrick.

I've really enjoyed it. Me too. Sociopath, a memoir, I think people are gonna really gobble this up. I found myself like, fuck, am I interested in this? It's like such a privileged bit of access. Thanks for sharing. I'm so glad. I wrote it as much for sociopathic individuals

as I did neurotypical, becauseopathic individuals as I did neurotypical, because it's just as important for neurotypical to understand this as it is for neurodivergent people to understand it, because we have to coexist. More and more we're learning like, by God, this fallacy of norm. Neurotypical, it's not even a thing. 20% we found out in the last thing is neurotypical,

then you add in this five percent or whatever. It's just all made up. It's like, we're all very unique. A lucky handful of us get to be quote normal. Yeah, whatever that means. I'm still not even sure who's normal. I think Rob's normal. Doesn't seem to be an alcoholic.

We'll find out. Patrick, thank you so much for coming in and talking about this. It was so interesting. Thanks guys, I really loved it. Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong. 3, 2, 1, and... Action on recording everyone, this one's for real, action on recording.

Oh, I'm nervous. About action on recording? Yeah. Oh no. I'm scared. It's gloomy out. It flipped on a dime. It's been so sunny and nice.

It was 80 for like three days in a row. Even maybe 82 or three. Yesterday when I hiked, it felt like it was 90 out because the sun was out so bright. Yeah. And I was sweaty wearing my rucksack. Oh my. Which makes my back sweat even more

because there's contact. Oh, you're wearing a backpack? Yeah, do you know what a rucksack, which makes my back sweat even more, because there's contact. Oh, you're wearing a backpack? Yeah, do you know what a rucksack is? Is it, I thought a rucksack was like that stick with a bag on it. Oh, like a hobo carries? Yeah. Oh, by the way, do those only exist in cartoons,

or do you think people ever really had it? It's like a handkerchief tied to a stick to carry all your stuff. I bet at some point it was real because it was a way to carry. Yeah. They're smart. And remember what Hobo stands for.

Do you remember? Oh gosh, I forget. Homeward bound. Oh yeah. There's like people riding the rails coming home from war. Yes, I forgot that. Which is kind of a nice. It is nice.

Like it got so negative, hobo. But a rucksack is a backpack that you put weight in. Oh. Yeah, so it has a plate inside the backpack, like a 40 pound plate. Oh my God. So that I'm heavier when I hike. Wow.

Yeah. Oh my God, it's getting really extreme. It really is. And it's kind of interesting. Yeah, you feel it? Yeah, because I did six miles, ding, ding, ding, the dip from all the travels. I'm just like fighting to get to homeostasis.

I feel like that's like my tactic. Uh-huh, yeah. But Monday I hiked six miles up to the very top and then lifted the next day. Then next day, rucksack four loops of the rock path, which is a thing and now four is my record. Wow. Yeah, and I'm pretty physically exhausted all day long.

And then I was lifting this morning and I was sore. Sure. And then I was like, is there a specific day you feel your age? Like, well, you've peaked. You're gonna have to lay off from here. I don't think I'm there, but across my mind, like when, I'm sure it's different.

When is enough enough? Well, not that, and I'm sure it's different for everybody, but obviously at 75 years old, I'm not gonna be able to squat as much as I can right now. And then when is that moment where you go, oh, from here on out, I'm gonna actually be doing less weight. In this week, I a little bit felt like,

oh, I think I might've topped out what I'm capable of. Well. But I like it. That's good. Yeah, it's very distracting. And then you're in a gentle coma afterwards. You've yet to really experiment with this. Not that way, no, no.

Well, I guess back in SoulCycle days. SoulCycle days, but I was never one to do doubles. People would do doubles. Like two different sessions a day. Yeah, or back to back. Oh, back to back. Oh, back to back. That was never for me. Right.

I mean, I would within the workout, increase the weight or make the resistance harder. And you would be like, oh my God, I don't think I can handle more or keep this up. Yes, and running has that element to it. It sure does. When's the last time you jogged? I haven't jogged in a minute.

It's usually a Christmas activity for you. I've been on my walk. I've just mainly been walking. Okay. It does hurt more now. Running? Yeah. Yeah.

So I think that's an age thing. Does it hurt in your knees? Yeah, shins. Low back? Sometimes low back. Low back, shins. Shins though is temporary. Well, I used to get really bad shin splints.

But when you get them like when you very first started resuming an exercise and then after a week you would never get them again? No. Oh, cause that was always my experience with running. Like if I hadn't jogged in a while and then I went jogging, I would have shin splints, but then that was it. It was just that initial dropping back in.

I'm just walking for now. Okay. I'm stuck with my walking for now. Do you ever ponder on it? Like, oh, maybe I should push myself. Do a rough sack? Like hike really hard up the hill or something. Do you ruminate on it or fantasize about it?

Does it cross your mind ever? Or just no way? It's not like it doesn't ever cross my mind, but it's never like I wanna push myself. It's maybe I should go, I should probably mix it up. Maybe I should go on a hike or do Pilates or something. But the goal isn't to like push myself, it's to increase the amount and diversity.

Well, I think you have a very healthy relationship with it. It's just like keep moving. Yeah, always move, find a way to move. Yeah, and I think that's very sustainable, keep moving. Yeah, always move. Find a way to move. Yeah. And I think that's very sustainable and probably very healthy. I hope so. But I have the mindset where it's like,

it's probably like original sin. It's like atonement. I have to atone daily to earn any joy. Yeah. I think it's like a baseline thought of mine. In fact, I was talking to my therapist this week. He was asking if I ever, ever think about drinking. And I said, I don't ever think about drinking.

And I said, because it's so cemented in my head, it's like, I drink, then I will buy Coke, then I will be gone for three days. So it doesn't sound good at all to be gone for three days. Right. And then it kind of got into like why that was my drug of choice drinking.

And I was saying, what drinking did for me, and I can very clearly remember it, is three beers in when I'd start feeling a buzz, the weight of you have to succeed and you have to be productive and you have to accomplish and you have to, productive and you have to accomplish and you have to, that's the only time that ever came off my shoulders. And it was like, oh, fuck, this feels nice

to not be fucking worried about what I'm accomplishing or doing or bettering. And that was the real joy of, if I had to isolate its singular appeal to me, it was, it's that sensation. When you get buzzed, what do you think dissipates? It depends on if I'm healthy mentally, it really is just like added fun. It really can be that for me. Sure.

Or it's just, we're loose and good. It's fun. We're good. Chatty. We're goose be that for me. Sure. Where it's just, we're loose and it's fun. We're goose. Chatty, we're goosey. We're gander, we're goosey gander. Four hours goes by, we've been chatting. Yeah. That's best case, right? Like that was summer of car.

Oh, but hold on, there might be a clue right there. Okay. So the notion that four hours goes by, cause you say this a lot. You say like time travels differently. It's a big part of it. So I'm wondering if this passage of time, which happens effortlessly, it makes me think maybe that your relief is anxiety.

Well, for sure, for sure. Like you feel a sense of like, oh, I don't have to be thinking about all the variables and what I'm supposed to be planning for. Yeah, I think it does mute anxiety. Well, the flip side of that is I like that if I have to work that- It speeds that up.

Yeah, like if I'm editing and I have a glass of wine, that feels like much more tolerable. And it does. Well, drinking on the job in general does help it. I think this is why I like guys throwing hammers, have some beers. But it's that. And I used to drink when I roofed and it was like,

oh yeah, this is totally tolerable with a little buzz. Yeah, I think there's something else with editing. It's kind of like, you're writing aphorism about homework. It's that. I mean, there's like, there's always. Yep. By the way, I don't know what the word aphorism means.

I think it- I'm pretty impressed that you just dropped that in the sentence. What if I'm, I could be wrong. Let's look it up. Let me affirm that aphorism is right. Huh? Epithy observation that contains a general truth.

Oh, I gotta work that in, aphorism. Try it today. Okay. Anyway, sometimes the idea of that, of just like, oh my God, this is- Endless. This is literally endless. I could slash should be doing this at all times is very daunting and overwhelming.

And so the drink makes that less so. Yeah. But I know that's bad. Like I know I'm using it to, to just like get through my life. Right. Well, your job. I know, but a job that is my life and this job gives a lot, right?

But it's time consuming. Right. So I'm aware that that's like not so healthy, that piece of it. But then the social element, I think is fine. Yeah, I think it's all fine. I was just curious if you had to articulate what the sensation was.

If you thought of it instead of a new sensation being given to you and more another sensation disappearing. Like it's an interesting framework to think about what it is. I always just thought about it as it gave me a buzz. It gave me this physical feeling. But I do think in retrospect, really it took away something that was very pleasant to have.

Well, I think that's the unhealthy part. Again, same with the work. It takes away the overwhelm. It makes it manageable. Well, good. That's another part I love about drinking is it makes me optimistic. So there's a pessimism about the daunting endlessness

of the editing. And then once a little buzz, you can kind of be optimistic about it. It's like, yeah, and then I do it and then it's over and then I always get through it and whatever. I always will. But when it's healthier, when I'm social and it's just like fun and it's summer of Kara, that is, it's giving me something.

So it's both, I guess. So the time thing, I get the time thing when we're recording, which I find to be very pleasant. Like time is in a different, it's like enters a different structure. You're escaping it, kind of. Yeah, or the many, many times I look, cause I'm sure we've gone 45 minutes and we've gone an hour and 50 minutes,

like that is very pleasant. Yeah. We just had a guest, we had a guest this week who looked down and he was like, what? Like it really shook him. Well, he has his own show. Yeah. And he says he's super conscious of time

when he's recording his show. Yeah. And he always feels like they can barely get to an hour. Exactly. And then he looked down and we can barely get to an hour. Exactly. And then he looked down and we had been talking for an hour and 45 minutes, he's like, wow, that was, but that I think is very pleasurable. It is, it is, I think so too.

Speaking of which, I'm gonna lose sense of time on Monday, I'm looking very forward to it. Which is I'm gonna be writing Coda for the first time. Tell me about that. Tell me about your Coda. I don't think most people know about that. Well, Koda is Circuit of the Americas in Austin, Texas. It's where they have the Formula One race.

I've been to the track now six times as a spectator. It's a gorgeous track. And I'm going for the MotoGP race on Sunday, but then on Monday, I'm gonna do a track day there, which I'm so excited about. So you're gonna ride motorcycles Monday. Ride motorcycles Monday. And time on that day will be very abstract.

But I'm really pumped, because I've just been watching the track on TV and in life for so long, and to get to ride it. That straightaway is nuts. Uphill, it's gonna be fun and it's gonna be very weird because you'll be going apex speed on the straightaway and then as you're approaching turn one,

which is a super insane tight, it's more than 90 degrees, you're gonna wanna get on the brakes because it's approaching, but you're going uphill so you can wait much later because it's uphill. And that's gonna be a whole thing to figure out. Okay. And it's Steve's 50th birthday party weekend. Oh!

Yes. That is fun. Are you gonna be careful? Yes, of course. Okay. Mostly because I have a whole week in Austin. Yeah, and you wanna enjoy it. Exactly, I wanna go to Barton Springs every day.

Yeah, okay. I can't say I'm not anxious. Okay. But I am excited for you. Okay, I'm't say I'm not anxious, but I am excited for you. Okay, I'm very excited for me. Are there other friends going besides Steve? It did cross my mind like, I wonder if Nicholas Holt will be there. If you're an actor and you ride,

so I think I might see other actors, which would be fun. And there probably will be some pros because the race will have been the day before. So maybe even the Peryllia team riders will be fun. And there probably will be some pros because the race will have been the day before. So maybe even the Perilia team riders will be there. Very exciting. Yeah, so that's what alcohol did. What did pills do? Well, pills are so stupid.

That's why it's really shocking I got addicted to them. Well, it's not shocking. It's a literal epidemic. I know, but like when I just compare the results of either alcohol and cocaine to opiates or Xanax, so many people are addicted to Benzos, and it's like, for my money, it's such an unpleasant, it's not like a super pleasant experience.

But I guess it's personality type. I'm sure for some people, Benzos give them what alcohol gave me. And then opiates feel good when they first come on and then they generally just don't work beyond that. I guess alcohol's a little similar in that. That buzz is one thing, and then the inebriation's a different thing.

Yeah, I mean, it just also chemically is just so addictive. That must just be it. I think the unique thing about opioids is your body adapts so quickly to it. That's the crazy weird trap of them. If you did two Vicodin every day for a week, next week you wouldn't feel it. Yeah.

Whereas your alcohol tolerance does not change like that. I'll tell you, the appeal of the opiates is kind of like wearing noise canceling headphones. Mm, yeah, you can just escape. Yeah, it's just like, you're present, but also at any moment, you don't have to hear all this stuff that's going on.

Yeah. You can kinda like be in one place in your mind even though you're going through the motions outwardly. But you can, you're kind of noise canceling headphones. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then there's some body sensation. When it first works. It's all pretty sad.

Yeah. Like all of it. The drinking, everything. works. It's all pretty sad. Like all of it, the drinking, everything. Yeah. It means. We just like can't be in our present life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's not good. I foresee a time maybe, I don't know where I'm not engaging in any substances. I don't know when that will be, but I do think. Definitely not in New York. It's not. It's not the place. No, it's not. It's not that soon, I don't think.

Right. I think I have enough evidence that it's not something I should do forever. It's not that good for me. I will say this, you will experience, so I had quit many times for 30 days, like you've done that before. Quitting for 30 days is much harder than quitting for good.

Because you don't at all ruminate and fantasize about when it's over, because this is not over. And so you just really, again, I don't think about drinking this, it's never happening. So it's not like, oh, in a month I get to do it, or in two months, or this summer I get to do it on this trip, I don't get to do it. And it kind of shuts that off finally,

where you don't even consider it. Yeah, I know, I think I'm going to get to a point, I've dipped in and out of this sort of recently. There have been times where I am drinking and I don't know why, like I don't want it, but I'm doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that part is.

Yeah, and you're a little drunk and you're like, why do I do this? I'm just like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? I woke up this morning, I knew I didn't wanna do this and here I am doing it. Don't you think it's that, yeah, it's that feeling of like, here I am again.

Yeah. Oh, I hate that feeling, here I am again. Yeah, so I think I just, and like I said, I think it's starting to happen where I don't want it anymore. Right. And so I feel like once that happens, then I'll probably be like,

it's okay, I think it's time to not do this anymore. It's time for a new experiment. Yeah. But then I think about my house and garden martinis. Oh yeah, poolside stuff. Exactly. That sounds so fun. Yeah, it will be.

Maybe when I'm 40. You'll quit at 40? Maybe. Okay. I don't know, I don't wanna say any of that. I don't know. I think I sound really alcohol-icky right now. You do?

I think I sound like that right now. No, I'm asking. You do think that. I think I sound like that right now, yeah. I don't think I am one, but I think that's how this conversation sounds. Like I'm aware of that, but I'm still choosing to say it

because I think it's just the truth. It's just my- Do you talk to other friends about that? See, I have no frame of reference. Like I don't know how to evaluate what people, what they think about people who drink casually. Like I'm almost curious, does everyone who drinks think should I drink?

Question this. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't, well, certainly I think for people who it's like a couple of times a month they're at a dinner with friends and they drink, clearly they don't ever think about it, right? No, mm-mm. Other than they might go like, oh, I kinda don't feel good the day after I drank.

Right. But I don't have any experience really with anyone who's like not, clearly not an addict, yet drinks more than they want to, it's interesting. I just wonder, wonder, is everyone, I mean there's obviously a spectrum, but I think everyone, maybe not everyone. I think most people have the capacity.

I think there's a lot of people that are really non-addictive people. To anything though? I feel like most people have something. That they soothe with? Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, yeah probably.

I think so. Yeah. I have seen non-addictive people who also are very into their phone. It's really weird I'm not more into my phone to be honest. Yeah. That's good. Too busy hiking.

Shrucksacking. Too busy lifting and moderating my protein intake. Had a very fun breakfast with Nate this morning. Oh, that's so nice. Where'd you guys go? It's so stupid that we already know this. We've been told by so many experts. About male friendship.

Yeah, men should go hang with men once in a while and talk. And even though I know that, because we are so social with a very mixed group. So I see men all the time. But the one-on-one is pretty powerful. Especially with Nate, because we've been friends for 30 years now. And we have so much fun at these fucking breakfasts.

I can't believe we're just laughing hysterically. We're whispering a lot to each other and our faces are really, like I imagine what it looks like watching Nate and I have breakfast. It's, let's look insane. So we get really close and we're like whispering something and we don't want anyone in the restaurant to hear. And then we're laughing so hard we can't pull it together.

Where'd you guys go? Cafe 101. Oh, fun. In fact, there was an armchair in there who's recently moved to LA. And she said she had come there because she heard us talking about it. Yes, that happened to me the other day at Cara.

I did. Yeah, it's really fun. It is. What's nice is we can stand by our recommendations. You know, people like these places. Exactly. These are good racks. Yeah, they're good racks. Yeah.

That's so fun, I'm glad you do. I'm glad you make time for that, I think it's important. That's a ding ding ding, friendship, social connection. Who's this? This is for Patrick. Oh. Also her name's Patricia, but she goes by Patrick. Yeah, once again, I have not stopped talking

about the interviews since it happened. And of course, and she was right to say, like we're as interested in you as you're as interested in us. We're so interested. I don't think I've ever talked to people about a guest we had where they wanted to hear every single thing. Of course.

Yeah. Oh, Jennifer. Oh my God, I almost choked on my cement. Uh oh. My cement. Yes, it's so interesting to us, but what I also know, because everyone who I've told,

at some point in the conversation, they say, and I said it in this, and you said it, am I a sociopath? Yeah, right, right, right. Everyone's so worried that they themselves are, which I think is hilarious. But I think that's good that we're aware of, okay, so there's this type.

I think wanting to know where you sit on that is good. Yeah, I also think wondering if you're a narcissist. Cause like I thought one of the most interesting things she said was when she's pretty sure she's talking to another sociopath, her main interest is do they know? Exactly. Which I found to be fascinating. Cause I guess maybe I would have assumed you would know,

but no, of course you don't necessarily know. So then she's like, naturally Patrick's like, do they know? And then two, are they working on it? Exactly. Do they have a system? Which is why I'm really glad we had her on and I'm glad she's doing what she's doing, because no one knows these things about themselves, I think, for the most part. And so if you start to pay attention and you understand things about themselves, I think for the most part. And so if you start to pay attention and you understand things about yourself,

and if you're listening and you think, I think this really could be me, as she said, she thinks of it as an emotional learning disorder. And she said, there are ways to learn it. It's just not the way a neurotypical brain works. So you can figure it out, but you have to know that it's harder for you

or it's gonna be different for you. Because the one I wonder about is I don't assume narcissists know they're narcissists. Most don't know. Yeah. Yeah, it's really. That's the other one I think people are good to be asking themselves.

Definitely. Because I'm constantly making sure I'm not. It's a really, I shouldn't say that. Prevalent? It's just a bad one. Like it's, I mean they're all, look, I don't wanna say anything's bad, but again here we go, we can't say anything's bad,

we can't say narcissism is bad. I know, I know. It is. I'm glad we talked about it with her, and she agreed though. She agreed. Because I said to her like, now I'm gonna be like. I know, I know. It is. I'm glad we talked about it with her, and she agreed though. She agreed. Because I said to her like, now I'm gonna be compassionate to sociopaths

and now I don't have anything, and she laughed, she liked that. Yeah, she said like, I'm not saying, she's like, this can be very, very destructive. Endangerous. Endangerous. So can narcissism, and yeah, I've read a bunch of books on it. On narcissism?

These things are so deep. When she talked about, now I'm forgetting the phrase, but how people are just extensions of you, right? Like that's how you see the world. And I think we all do that to an extent. That's part of just- I think she said that like they're a projection of themselves maybe?

Right. I think we all sort of do that a little bit, but I think narcissists do it to a much higher degree and it feels like sociopaths do that to a high degree as well. I think it's really hard to know when you're doing it. Yeah, well, I think the most fun I've had talking about this episode was with Charlie.

Oh. Because, and he was right, like I would say one thing and then he would say, well, but do you think she really? Is one. Well, there was that, that was the example I gave. Like I did lay in bed that night and I just thought this would be a very interesting way to go sell a book

and to be interviewed in the New York Times. I thought the same thing. It's very interesting. But then I thought, but you'd kinda have to be a sociopath to lie that blatantly in public. Yeah. So then it becomes a circular thing where you can't find your footing.

You're like, well, even if the whole thing was alive, and I think almost that would, like, I couldn't, I don't have the capacity to do that. Like, would it be taking on a full identity? You found that I never had drank in my life. Like, this whole thing was a ruse. I mean, wouldn't that be pretty significant proof that I was a sociopath?

I don't know, because there's- That I just have no guilt about lying completely for years? But you might have guilt. It might- But she doesn't have guilt or shame. Well, she says. I mean, oh, look, by the way, I believe her. Yeah, I do too, I do too.

But now we're in this new thought, you know. You can't help but think about these things. And then you play through all these different things and you're like, yeah, it's really interesting. At some point, you just have to believe the person who's telling you that they like to lie and that they will not feel bad at all. They lie to you.

It's a very, and by the way, fun and novel, interesting experience. and that they will not feel bad at all. They lie to you. It's a very, and by the way, fun and novel, interesting experience. I loved it. I loved it too. We were done. She went to the restroom and we went outside. We said, we'll meet you outside for some pictures.

And then she came out and you joked, or I think Rob said actually, I think he joked, like when she goes through our stuff. And then so you said to her, you could have gone through our, or I think Rob said actually, I think he joked, like, why don't you go through our stuff? And then so you said to her, you could have gone through our, or you said something. I said, did you go through our stuff? So, but really- Yeah, she said, you don't think I didn't?

But even that I, what I liked about her is I felt very comfortable to be as dark as I wanted to be. There was some aspect of it that I really enjoyed, which is like, it's what she was saying, people just tell her anything because they know she's not evaluating how moral or amoral they are. So like me making some off-color joke, she's not gonna go like, this guy's a dick

and doesn't care about people's, that's not gonna be her response. And so of course I loved that, so I'm like, oh yeah, I can hit her with that joke, she'll be fine with it. And she liked it, and then she joked yeah, I can hit her with that joke. She'll be fine with it. And she liked it. And then she joked back and then we still don't know. Yeah, we don't know.

Although there's nothing to really go through. I mean, she could have, it would have been fine. Also, it did make me think after, now we're all sort of striving for this emotional stability, not being affected by others, not letting other people's emotions control our emotions. Contaminate ours or. And that's what she is.

Yeah. So I don't want that. Like I'm okay with letting other people in my orbit affect me, cause that's part of typical relationships on earth that we're not living in vacuums for the most part, unless you're someone like her. So there's like great things to take from it and boundaries are great.

And it's good not to feel guilty all the time, but I think it's also good to feel guilt sometimes. Well, again, right. That's what we're endlessly saying. So the option isn't either be a sociopath or be someone whose life is unmanageable because they are consumed by guilt over trivial things. It's like, of course, finding some sweet spot line,

some nuanced line in there. Because the Wednesday thing I thought was awesome. Me too. I thought that was a really cool thing to point out. I also am sincerely compassionate about the fact that there's no positive version of a sociopath ever displayed on TV. Yeah, I agree. And these are real human beings who really have this and live here with us.

And I want for them to be seen as three-dimensional like everyone else. Like the autistic people want to be, not just this one thing, all the things, the whole range. I think like Wednesday is this very safe way for us to look at a version of this that's not so scary to us. It's high ends, and then it's a spectrum. I can see, there's a version of me that is so therapized

that I'm just separate. I'm just mentally separate from everyone. I have all these boundaries up and I'm not letting you affect me and I'm, you know, like I can see myself at some point getting there. I've already made progress in that, which I think is a good thing. But this really made me think like, well, I gotta be kind of careful.

I gotta be kind of careful. But I don't think you could get there even if you tried. Maybe not to the full level, but it's okay. I think it's okay to be affected. Yeah, well, again, within a range, yes, you don't wanna be unaffected by people. But when it becomes pathological to you and it's taking over your mood,

when you are powerless over someone else's mood, taking control of yours, I think that's an issue. Or at least minimally, I don't want to go through life being that contagious where it's like, well, good luck, I hope I wanna go through life being that contagious where it's like, well, good luck, I hope I bump into people that are positive today. Right, exactly.

Or people that aren't going through something, they don't have their own shit. I very much like being able to recognize that this is someone else's thing. Yes. And I have nothing to do with it. And then that doesn't mean I can't then be a part of the good side of them, that actually brings me joy.

Yeah. Right? You just go, yeah, this person, that's a weakness of theirs and they're gonna occasionally be like that. But then also I'm gonna have fun on this. Yeah, of course, I mean, yeah. Oh no. Were there any facts?

Yeah, a couple. Oh, I wanted to play the clip, the Men in Black clip. Oh, great. And your speaker's at the, there you go. I found it. Oh. Mm. ["The Men in Black"]

Edwards, what the hell happened? Hesitated. Edward, what the hell happened? Hesitated. May I ask why you felt little Tiffany deserve to die? Well, she was the only one that actually seemed dangerous at the time, sir. How'd you come to that conclusion? Well, first I was gonna pop this guy hanging from the streetlight, and then I realized, you know, he's just working out.

And how would I feel if somebody come running into the gym, bust me in my ass while I'm on a treadmill? Then I saw this snarling beast guy, and I noticed he had a tissue in his hand. I realized he's not snarling He's sneezing I'm thinking, you know, eight-year-old white girl middle to ghetto bunch of monsters this time of night with quantum physics books She's about to start some shit To be honest I'd appreciate it if you eased up off my back about it.

Or do I owe her an apology? You know what's funny? What I think's happening there, his voice is way higher. I think because there is an algorithm that can comb YouTube to make sure no copyrighted materials on there. So there's like a mathematical code to all the sound

and then it can comb through massive amounts. Like if you Beetle song and that's how they enforce copyright. And I think this person sped it up a little so it doesn't get flagged. Because that was higher than how he talks and it was a little faster than that scene really is. That's interesting.

Yeah, that's my hunch. Okay, she talked about inherent emotions versus social emotions. The four primal emotions are happiness, sadness, fear and anger. And then social emotions are emotions that depend upon the thoughts, feelings, or actions of other people as experienced, anticipated, or imagined at firsthand.

Examples are embarrassment, guilt, shame, jealousy, envy, elevation, empathy, and pride. In contrast, basic emotions, happiness, sadness, only require the awareness of one's own physical state. Interesting. Very interesting. Oh, the other thing that came up in Charlie's, when he and I were talking about it,

is we also happen to be talking to a very smart human who has a PhD in clinical psychology. Clearly there are sociopaths that are dum-dums. So it's like, I wonder how those people who have to outsmart and put on the mask and anticipate and be really on top of it, I wonder how that plays out. Or like, they only have so much capacity

to lie creatively and convincingly because they're also not very intelligent. Clearly there's gotta be sociopaths that are low intelligence. Yeah, and also like different environments so that they don't access. Yeah, she was being very fair about her privilege. Yeah, but then you're trying to imagine,

I was trying to imagine talking to a very stupid sociopath. And then does that become more obvious? They just might not, they're probably not masking. Or maybe those are the ones that are in jail, I don't know. Yeah, true. I just got really curious about the relationship between intelligence and how it would be affected. She definitely may, also it was clear

this is such a spectrum. Yeah, big time. It seems, has like mild to moderate. But on this topic, going into this interview, I'm like, oh, I will know, even if I ignore that I know, I will be able to detect, and I don't think I would have detected. That she was one, yeah.

Yeah, I left going, no, that's, you don't, you actually don't have that skills. Now maybe the fibs I would catch, but just the overall, I left going, no, that's not, you don't, you actually don't have that skills. Now maybe the fibs I would catch, but just the overall, I would chalk it up to something else. Yeah, like the fact that she's a stalker, like that's fascinating. But it doesn't sound like she likes stalking people she knows necessarily.

It's like, it's a voyeuristic escape. Interesting. So interesting. Okay, I looked up why psychopaths like animals. She said they often do. Sociopaths. Well, she said psychopaths do too. In her book it talks about sociopaths? No. Okay.

Well, she did say, and it does say here, psychopaths gravitate towards dogs since they are obedient and easy to manipulate. They often get upset when their dogs die because dogs offer unconditional love. That doesn't really make sense. Type in why sociopaths like animals. These are all like Reddit.

Oh. Sociopaths and animals part one, sociopathworld.com. Oh wow, there's a sociopathworld.com. Which is weird. I can't, there's no. She had no good answer and she has a PhD in this. Yeah, true. Okay, animals who mate for life.

Here's seven of them. Okay. Wolves. Ooh. This says wolves, power couples. In a gray wolf pack, it's usually only the male and female alpha who are allowed to breed, the pair mate for life as a way to cement their position

as pack leaders. Beavers sharing is caring. Oh, of course beavers are monogamous. This monogamy is more about practicality than romance in beavers. Oh, this is more like arranged marriage. It's more financial. These are Eurasian beavers, specifically.

Uranus beavers. They team up for life as a way to increase their chances of survival. I mean, that's like humans. Okay, gibbons. Yeah, gibbons are among the apes. California mice. Oh, we wouldn't among the apes. California mice. Oh, we wouldn't expect that in California.

No. Not as progressive as we thought California. Shingleback lizards. Oh, shingleback is a bad term. Yeah. Because it makes me think of shingles. Well, wait till you hear this one. Diplazoon paradoxum.

Okay, is that a plant protein? It's a parasitic flatworm. A parasitic flatworm. And it has a mate? It lives in the gills of a type of fish. That's disgusting. Let's see. It must conjoin with another specimen

or it cannot reach adulthood. Oh, well that's. Yeah, it doesn't. That doesn't sound like the same thing. Black vultures says, unlike mammals, monogamy is the norm when it comes to birds. Take black vultures, for example. I don't know if I trust this.

I'm gonna go to a different web. No, it's BBC. Oh, monogamy.com. BBCearth.com. I thought, how come lobsters aren't on here? Don't lobsters mate for life? How could they? That's a whole thing on Friends.

It is, but lobsters, do they hang together? Aren't they just kind of fucking floating all haphazardly around the floor? They have a very robust romantic life. Oh, wow. Okay, this is on Britannica. Six animals that mate for life. Beavers, gray wolves, gibbons, macaroni penguins, penguins,

we know that about penguins. Yeah, we knew that one. The boys are so nice, those penguins, they sit on the eggs. Yeah. And they travel great distances to feed. Sandhill cranes, bald eagles. Bald eagles, that's interesting

because I've seen a lot of bald eagle nests and I don't see two birds in the nest. Well, they're off on vacation. Okay. Romantic getaway. They're on business trip. One's there and the other one. Yeah.

Oh, you think the other one's cheating? The gibbons are together. They're inseparable. Oh. But I always see one bald eagle, presumably sitting on some chicks. Yeah. I'm gonna look for it though.

I always see bald eagles when I go rafting in Wyoming. With Lincoln. So I've not been on high alert for a monogamous partner. Well, that's obviously, and as it should be, the female bald eagle is looking after the babies and the male bald eagle is working. Right. Okay.

That's what we should all be replicating. Yeah, the man should go out and work, and the mom should stay home with the chicks. And the babies. I mean, just because they're not together during the day doesn't mean they're not monogamous though, for mating. Well, right, I guess then we get into it. They just only mate with each other.

Is that the same? I think so. But like, gibbons are a pair. They're together. Sounds like these beavers are too. Like they do everything together. Beaver. Ironic.

I mean, it's also, whatever. We know, we know as people, it's learned behavior. Can we go through quickly what are the least defensive and most offensive nicknames for a vagina? Sure. Because beaver's so silly, could it really be? It's not offensive to me, but it's like gross. Yeah, you wouldn't want your partner to call it that.

Yeah. No. Yeah. No, okay, yeah, so that one is- It's like innocuous. Yeah. Yeah. What other ones do you wanna go through? Well, no, just that one, I guess, is all we have to tackle.

It's person to person. It is, that's for sure. If some people say pussy, it's gross. Uh-huh. And if others, it's fine. Yeah. Don't you feel bad for the people who, they're just gross when they say it?

No, because they're- They're weird, different people have different access. They're doing it. Okay. The reason it's gross is because they're perverted. Okay. And like it feels nasty when it comes out of their mouth because they're nasty.

But also vagina is boring. A friend of ours, dad, older man, he said, he always pronounced it pissy. Oh God. And we were like, whoa, is he calling it pissy? Is he saying it wrong? I think so. Like I think that's how he pronounces pussy. But I mean, does he know it's pussy

and that's like the way he says it? Or does he think it's spelled P-I-S-S-Y? He can't think it's spelled that, he's a smart man. Oh, he is? Yes, but he does have a little bit of an affected accent. And I just don't know if maybe when he was young, that's what he and his friends did, but he would always say like, yeah.

Say it, I'll close my eyes. Okay, what are you guys over here, talking about pissy? Ew, that's confusing too, because piss is a part of it. It might be telling of what his kink is. Oh. Wow. I don't know, but what a way to pronounce it. Wow.

Yeah, because you're right, it's not a great conversion rate, guys saying pussy, it can be really triggering. So you're already in thin ice, and then if you now change it to pissy. Yeah, but I also don't want, I don't think it's sexy to call it a vagina. God no.

So then what is there? Thank you, that's what most men feel like. Well, I know. We're happy if you call our penis anything. Well, of course. I know. Because women aren't as nasty for the most part. Well, you guys are nasty.

Well, we're nasty, but not- Publicly. Not in the way that men are. You guys are sociopaths. Talking about pissy and stuff. I mean, I don't like roast beef curtains, I'll tell you that. Sure, I understand that. That one's not for me.

Right, no one really says that though, okay? Should I look it up? Roast beef curtains? No. Pissy? No. We're losing a lot of people right now. There's so many words and I'm not gonna say them

because people, women will just hate me that I even know them, but I know all of them. You do? I know all of them. Can you just say some? I'm allowing it. Pink taco. Yeah, no one likes that.

I know, everyone I say is gonna be like, ugh, ugh. So it's like every time I open my mouth now, it'll be met with gross. That's fine, I just wanna know. But I'm just saying, I know, do you want me to write them all down for you and then send them to you? And then I'll read them? Yeah, by yourself, you can read them out loud.

There's a million. Say some more. No, I'm not gonna do it. Why? Because I've already lost at least 10 listeners. No you haven't. Okay, hair pie. Right.

Now hair pie, no one should say, but I often say, as you know, hair pie a la commode, which is kind of a fun joke. Yeah, you love that joke. Yeah. I say that when we're at a restaurant, I go, I wonder if they have hair pie a la commode. Right. Yeah.

Now I think that's kind of fun. It is funny. These are just like funny words for it though. They're not what you would actually refer to it as. Being sexy. Right. Yeah, pussy's the main go would actually refer to it as. Being sexy. Right. Yeah, pussy's the main go-to. It is, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yet again, we get the short end of the stick. There's no good word. There's no actually like sexy word. Pussy's kinda. I know, but a lot of people have ruined it.

Right, but again, no matter what you call it, there's gonna be a group of guys that really bastardize it quickly. Yeah, you're right. There's no magic word. Kitty, like girls like Kitty, but that's too. I don't like that. It feels immature to me.

Yeah. Unless you're a listener and you call it that, then I think it's great. These are all personal preferences. They are. It's all fine. I don't's great. These are all personal preferences. It's all fine. I don't like cats. They eat your brain within 24 hours of death.

I was randomly a couple days ago wondering what the origin of pussy is. Is it pussy cat? Yeah, it is. It is, we know that. I guess I don't know it for certain, but that is what I think it is. That's what makes logical sense.

Yeah. And then kitty, but is it just cause of the hair? Or you wanna pet it? Right, like where does all, I guess. Or it'll eat your head when you're dead? Well, it will. All right, let's see. I think those are my facts.

Those are my facts for Patrick. That was quite an episode. One of my favorites. I'm really glad we got to do it. Me too. I applaud her for being open about it. I mean, I can't think of a higher risk thing. I really do.

I guess a psychopath is higher risk. Cause if a psychopath asked to come here, I would say we can't do that. That's true. That's too dangerous. It doesn't sound like, I don't know, I didn't leave the interview with total confidence in our diagnosis of these things.

I'm not sure I know that people are getting diagnosed as psychopath. Like what therapist is going, okay, well we've done your evaluation and so you are a psychopath. Do you think that sentence has been said in a therapeutic setting? There are diagnosed psychopaths.

I know, but they're generally in prison. Right. I don't know that in regular life. Well, you know that show with Steve Carell? What was that show? Yes, where he was chained up in the basement. Yeah, by his patient who was a psychopath. Ah.

God. Or was he a sociopath? No, he was a psychopath. He was a psychopath, okay. But yeah, you're right, it's all muddy. I know. It's all muddy, but I think... Look, I feel bad.

No one's choosing any of this stuff. No, no, that's what's most important. You're just born. You're just born. You're just born. You're just born. All right, love you. All right, love you. Love you.

Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you.