Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Phil Heath (professional bodybuilder)

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

Phil Heath (Breaking Olympia) is a 7x Mr. Olympia winner and professional bodybuilder. Phil joins the Armchair Expert to discuss what his diet is like, how he lost his innocence at an early age, and his journey into bodybuilding. Phil and Dax talk about their admiration for Arnold Schwarzenegger, how they learned to control their aggression, and the ways social media has changed the bodybuilding industry. Phil explains how he feels about his own insecurities, what it's like to be acknowledged by your heroes, and coping with his new identity as he transitions out of the sport. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert, I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Padman. Hi. Rare one today. Bodybuilding. Bodybuilding, boy, Kumail and Rob McElhenney have got to be all ears for this one.

I hope so. If they don't listen to this episode, our friendship's over. Oh no, okay. Should I warn them? I feel like I should side text them. You might need to, because it won't be the real test I need it to be

if I text them. Yeah, it won't. Yeah, Phil Heath. I would imagine a lot of armchairs have never heard that name. Which is funny, because he's very much a Jordan in his given sport, which is bodybuilding.

Phil Heath is a professional bodybuilder who has won the Mr. Olympia seven times. Which is crazy. There is unheard of. There's two eights and then there's him. Yeah, pretty cool. The eighth, of course, I talk about endlessly on here. He comes up so much, we're gonna have to interview him as well.

I would love to. Ronnie Coleman. Ronnie Coleman. It was actually fun to hear Phil have so many thoughts about Ronnie Coleman. But at any rate, Phil Heath has a new documentary out now called Breaking Olympia, which is the Phil Heath story. Fascinating tale, you'll hear a bunch of it here today.

And enjoy the pictures. Just really go through those pictures and try to comprehend how tiny your boy looks next to Phil Heath. And me. You're in danger. But he was very nice. Yeah. I didn't feel in danger. No, he was a sweetheart.

He was very nice to my children. Please enjoy Phil Heath. He's an object man. He's an object man. He's an object man. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan.

I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan.

I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan. I'm from Michigan, so... Oh, okay, we just moved there. Oh, no way! Wait, what? We just moved to Michigan, so... No!

Originally from Seattle, my wife's originally from the Bay Area. So we live in Royal Oak. No way! Yeah. Oh my God! Yeah. That's about the coolest place you can live in. That's what everybody keeps telling us, so we're really's telling us so we're like right there near Birmingham. Have you tried Coney dogs yet? I haven't tried it You have oh you got a whole well, we just keep driving by it

Other lines and stuff always there's so many Monica. Well, you were there number McDonald's by like 10 Yeah, so there's religions. You're either a national person or you're a Lafayette person. Got it. You have to pick your... You have to pick your... Your team is like everything. You can't just eat a hot dog. You've got to declare who you are.

I like to think of myself as a Coney Dog expert. No, that's dope, man. Here's your mic. Is there anything else you would like? No, this is great. You don't want coffee? My wife just told me I'm too stung down already. She's like, yeah, no more.

But also, that's kind of her role. It's kind of astounding to watch you guys work. You're a team. Yes. And half of her day is preparing your insane diet regimen. Yeah. Which makes sense. You guys have a family business.

And part of it is like, how many calories a day? To be quite honest, I stopped counting. I just go by the meal, because I think when you start having this number, like, oh, I eat 6,000 calories a day, that becomes very daunting, I think. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

When you just say, this is the meal, this many grams of carbs, this many grams of protein, it's just a lot easier. You're saying in the doc that you were eating every two hours. Yeah, every two, two and a half hours I was eating. So depending on what time I woke up, what time I went to bed, it could be up to eight times.

And how much at a time? The most between protein and carbs, a pound and a half. Your plate would be a pound and a half between those two. So how many grams of protein would that be? Like 75 grams per meal. Times seven. Eight. Yeah, seven if not eight.

So it's a lot. Oh my goodness. Right, so obviously your fiance. Are you married now? We're married now. So in the doc, when it was filmed, we were engaged. And had been for quite a while, right? Oh yeah.

Yeah. For how long? We were engaged over six years, I know that for sure. So it was too long. Do you think the doc at all shamed you into like, all right, I gotta fucking get that. No, not at all. It was having an ex-wife.

That's what made it quite difficult. So anyone that has been married before that has that quote unquote baggage, you kind of are like, let's just tread lightly on this. I'm being fair to my ex. I don't need to bash her or anything like that because I expect her not to do that to me. But you just want to have things to my ex. I don't need to bash her or anything like that. Cause I expect her not to do that to me, but you know, you just

want to have things to be cool. And eventually we realized like, just go get married. Like, you know, after COVID you're like, I'm not wasting any more time. Well, there is some merit to not getting married. Now I say that as someone who's been married for a while, but we were interviewing Goldie Hawn recently and you know, her and Kurt Russell, they never got married. Oh, they didn't.

No, they're not married. They're their boyfriend, married. They're boyfriend girlfriend They've been together at the time we interviewed was it maybe 30 years at that point and I even said to her Do you think if you had been married you would have gotten divorced at some points and she's like, yes So in some weird way There is a little merit to not getting married because then you can just have a really shitty patch You don't have to like get divorced over it. It doesn't feel so existential like well now I got to make this big,

huge life decision like a divorce. Yeah, cause you're married and when you're having shitty times, as all couples do, you start going like, and now this is for the rest of my life. So you add this- Yeah, an extra layer. Yes.

It really is unnecessary and you're more married to the state than to each other. Well, I'll tell you a funny one really quick. So when my wife and I got married, I at the time had more money than her in the bank and I'm nuts about money. Like I grew up broke and it's a thing. I don't have a healthy relationship with it. She goes, would you want to prenup?

In my mind, I'm like, yes, I want to fucking prenup so bad. But then I go, no, I don't want to prenup. Got married, then jokes on her, cause she got in frozen, and all of a sudden she's got way more money. So you just don't know. It is interesting though. I think it scares people now. You know, I talked to some younger adults,

it's not even on the radar. They don't even care. I mean, they're trying to screw everybody. Like these dating apps and stuff. I get that part because I can only imagine if I was living that life, there's no such thing as delayed gratification for someone under 30 years old right now.

No. For us that are over 30, delayed gratification is worth it. Ironically, yes, in every single sector of your life, yet there's this one you go like, no, this should be super easy and immediate, and then work out. If it would be easy, everybody'd be a champion. But then you would have nothing to look forward to.

And within bodybuilding, you may feel great after that first workout, even if you got your ass kicked. But I don't look as strong as Phil Heath or like Arnold Schwarzenegger. When is that going to happen? And I think that's why some people revert it back to those negative patterns that have purchased the January 1st membership. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The resolutions are starting to evaporate.

Then it really comes down to a deeper conviction, recognizing like, okay, this pattern does not serve me. I need to really submit and say, you know what? Enough is enough. Whether it be alcohol, whether it be sex, drugs, gambling, whatever it is, just being angry. This does not serve this person who I claim and declare I'm going to be.

Yeah, that's the rough part. It's hard. Like in AA we say, I got sick of people judging me for my actions and not my intentions. Yeah, you can say you're whoever you are, but we kind of have the results in front of us. Yeah, you didn't show up for work three days in a row and you've been blacked out for a while.

Let's go back, because we have some similarities, you and I. Single mom. How old were your parents when... So my parents divorced around three. Same. Wow. So we were on our own for a little bit. You brothers and sisters?

No, I was raised as an only child. I still remember I was in an apartment. Something happened. Obviously there was a nasty argument. And I remember being with my mom in a guest bedroom. She was just crying. She was just rocking me to sleep. Just singing. I think she's singing to herself more than she's singing to me and I never saw that place again after that day. Wow.

So once morning came, I guess we just left. Yeah. So at least it's alluded to in the doc and both of our dads have died prematurely and around the same time, 14 for you. Yeah, it'll be 10 years on the 29th. But alcoholism's in the mix. Yep. By the way, your dad's way better looking than my dad but my dad had fucking rhythm. 14 for you? Yeah, it'll be 10 years on the 29th. But alcoholism's in the mix.

Yep. By the way, your dad's way better looking than my dad, but my dad had fucking rhythm. He made moves, like he drove a Corvette, he dressed right, girls liked him, and your dad was a fucking fox. Thanks. Seems like our pops are like,

yeah, our dads are probably kicking it right now, dude. They're like, oh yeah, you got it going on, I got it going on, like hey. I do need to say your father is much better looking. Your father is a fucking 10. It's so funny because when you're dating and I share pictures of my father with my now wife, she was like, wow, like he's really handsome.

And then her mom got quiet. Her parents are still together. My father-in-law's like, yeah. We get it. We do, yeah. But he looked like a movie star, man. Really? Yeah, like he's always dapper.

He just had style and he would be the one that would always make sure, like if I'm dressed up for an event, pocket squares gotta be on point, cufflinks, everything. He'd be the one rocking Lucchese's, snakeskin boots, like he had it all, man. He had it going on. What brought them to Seattle?

So my mom grew up in a little town called Zachary, Louisiana My dad was from Dallas Fort Worth area So probably just a more liberal town but no military because some don't end up in there because the Navy maybe yeah Usually but I just believe that everybody just wanted a different start deep south. There was obviously racism I mean all kind of shit was going on. My stepfather was from place called Huntsville, Alabama. He's going on 91. So that means he was born in 1933. Come on, the things that he probably had to see in Alabama. He watched all the Jim Crow come up. So they all were like, let's go up North. Let's go further West. Let's just get the hell out of here. And in fact, when we were filming Breaking Olympia, you have to go through like all your old effects. So I was able to find old pictures of my biological parents to think that they were partying

like in the seventies, you would think, oh, they're just with a bunch of black folks. It's like, no, no, no, no. It was like all races in Seattle. So I think it was more safe. Everybody just felt comfortable. Yeah, way more liberal. I think that's probably why they moved there.

And what'd they do for a living there? So my mom worked in cargo services for a company called Sealand at the time that later changed names into Horizon Lines, CSX Lines. They got acquired by Matson. She started off as a clerk, worked all the way up to upper level management. Let's be honest, minority woman telling longshoremen at the port what to do. Wow. So she would work late night on Wednesdays and Fridays because those were

the days that those ships had to leave. So she would work at the port of Tacoma, Washington. So those containers, she would have to make sure that whatever's coming in, proper manifest, whatever's going out, she would wait until the last container got on that barge. So she carried herself with a lot of pride and respect and accountability because those are things that have to get to where they're supposed to be. And being an entrepreneur, you know, I had a supplement company along with my wife. You learn when you get product and they're supposed to go to Europe or Asia, who is doing those things?

You learn about real deadlines. Not like, uh, I think I gotta get this project done sometime in the next few weeks. And it doesn't matter about your feelings either. So her having a deadline and having to effectively communicate with people that may not like the next few weeks. And it doesn't matter about your feelings either. So her having a deadline and having to effectively communicate with people that may not like the way she looks. And let's be honest, there's plenty of males that don't like taking directions from a female. Plenty's being generous.

Yeah, exactly. Plenty. 99%. It's not easy. I see it all the time. Well, you've got misogyny, but then you also just have, we've all been raised by moms. Yeah, don't tell me what to do.

Yeah, like triggers some weird, your mother's telling you what to do. I just have to tell you, because my mom's inside visiting right now. So my mom started when she left my dad, night shift janitor at General Motors, and then worked her way up into the fleet, then became a manager of all the fleet, same exact shit.

Had to deal with all the dudes. We're like living in parallel universe, man. I know. Got the multiverse going on, like what's going on? And the amount of shit she had to take and also be a boss and how to play the fucking game. There you go. Oh man, you gotta do your job perfect

and then you gotta deal with every dude hitting on you. That's just part of every other thing you're dealing with. What were her nights like when she got home? Was she just quiet? Was she just turned on the TV or was it like a drink? Well, this is what I was going to ask you about. So I had a lot of stepdads. So it was usually coming home or the stepdad was supposed to pick her up.

We only have one car, but he's blocked out. He's abusive. So we got an abusive dude in the house. We got a baby. There's three of us. I'm writing about it right now. I don't know how that woman kept moving forward. Probably because of you guys.

What was your stepdad's scenario? Like my stepdad's scenario like? My stepdad worked at a NBC affiliate. So he worked at King Five in Seattle, Washington. He was a TV engineer. That was back in the day, obviously, when you had like 30 people in a news station. But he worked in the control room,

he worked behind the cameras, he did all that stuff. And how old were you when he came on the scene? I was three and a half. Okay, so really quick after. Almost like right away. In fact, my mom and my stepdad met at a going away party for a mutual friend and my cousin was supposed to look after me and got called in for work. And so she told my now stepdad like, Hey, I can't come. He was like, Oh, bring them. We'll just put them in the bedroom. You know what I mean? I got TV

and stuff. He was like, it'll be fine. And then I guess they just hit it off. Next thing you know, I remember seeing a piece of luggage and like a bunch of Safeway bags, like brown paper bags. And those were my clothes. We didn't have much. And I'm like, I guess this is where we're living now. Not right away, but I'm only three. So I can only remember snippets. I think she chose the best responsible adult

that she could hang with, party with. I mean, he was much older than her though. Like how much older? A lot. 17. As an adult now, I'm like, damn mom, what the fuck is going on? But again, it sounds like she had your best interest very much in mind. Maybe she wanted to be taken care of in a way.

Her being a career woman, she admired a man who had his stuff together. They could create more abundance financially, which they both did. He respected my mom. I saw them argue, but never physical. They did both drink quite a bit. So mom did too. Mom came home every night drinking a Manhattan on the rocks, watching days of our lives, you know, on VHS.

Set her timer to record it during the day. Then there's a time change. You're like, fuck, I didn't get my days in my life. All that stuff, man. So I learned pretty quick. Alcohol was always in the day. Dude. Oh my God. Then there's a time change. You're like fuck I didn't get my days in my life. All that stuff man. So I learned pretty quick alcohol was always in the house. For me it was more of that's what adults do. That's not what kids do. And so later on when I would have friends over,

they'd be like dude, your parents keep beer in the fridge in the garage. Let's go snag one. And I'm like, I'm not getting to my ass beat for you. What are you talking about? I think because it was that accessible, that Jack Daniels was in the linen closet next to the car keys.

It was ever present. Yeah, so everything was cool. Did you delineate some difference between dad and mom and stepdad's drinking? When you would go to your dad's on the weekend, by comparison was dad's drinking more out of control than mom's? It's hard to say because he didn't do it

really in front of me. Oh, that's nice. He did smoke cigarettes and that was always fucking annoying. In the car too, right? Yeah, like after dinner mint He was saying, you know, like after dinner mint son And I'm like, okay, so that means he's going out But he didn't really do it in the car much because he probably did a couple times My mom was like flipping out on him. I give my mom I said that credit cuz they both smoked cigarettes and I don't recall them ever needing to go do a patch or anything. They just stopped. No kidding. So they were

responsible to a degree. I mean, that was back in the day. The bar was low. Come on. You could drive after drinking a pitcher or two of beer. We used to go to a fish joint called skippers in Seattle. So it'd be like Long John Silver's high quality seafood. High quality seafood. Deep fried, and they would just continually bring over a pitcher of beer, and I always noticed that my parents would just laugh louder and louder. As a kid, you're just happy, because you're like, okay, everything's cool.

They're happy. And I'm getting home, and my ass is asleep. The minute I get in the back seat of the car, I'm out. I'm the first person on the plane. Before they even decide to offer drinks. I'm out right That's weirdly telling about your childhood. That doesn't mean you felt safe. Yeah, I feel safe They didn't give me a reason not to there was no car wrecks. There was none of that. Yeah, there was no DUIs There's none of that real wreckage

No, if anything, it was just them enjoying each other's company Maybe being a little too loud, but I lived in a house where they debate, debate, debate on everything. So you're gonna get loud. You're just gonna get loud. So my stepdad's friends would come over and you know, we watched the fights. Back in the day, you watched Mike Tyson fight,

watching pay-per-view. Everything was loud. So being in a silent house was like, what's that? Well, when I'm watching the doc, which by the way, I loved Breaking Olympia, just to remind everyone. When I watch it with my 10 year old who you just met. Oh man.

And she fucking loved it. Oh she did. I guess what she wanted to meet, she didn't want to meet anyone. Wow, okay. Like everyone's in here, she's only asked to meet a few people, and she wanted to meet you.

She loved it, I loved it. But I am trying to, I'm trying to figure out how this is an answer to something in childhood, this pursuit. My first instinct would be, because I have this big chip on my shoulder, which is again, violent step dads, I feel in danger a lot,

I wanna grow up and get big and get tough, and I wanna be able to defend myself. I'm scared a lot. So I'm hearing about your school, and I'm like, well, there's a little bit of a clue. Similar thing, like just a very violent town and people fight nonstop. Where you went to school at Rainier.

Rainier Beach was the high school that some people that were in more affluent communities would be. Where you went to school at Rainier. Rainier Beach was the high school that some people that were in more affluent communities would be like, you went there? Right. Little context. We were playing basketball against Seattle prep. So fancy, right? We play them at home.

They're a private school, but they're now asking the Seattle public school system to fund buses for all their fans to come to watch us play. And they're super attendance. Like, why should we supply you buses when you guys just drive there? They said, Oh, because after we beat them, we don't want them vandalizing our nice vehicles. Oh my God. Could you imagine them saying this in the freaking Seattle times?

So my coach, Mike Mathia, shout out to Mike Mathia. He's still there. Is this the team he went to state with? Oh yeah. Coach Mathia also works at Boeing. I still remember it, man. We're getting ready for practice. He comes in with the newspaper.

Coach Bathia, God bless him, man, but he was one of those guys at that time, we called him Bobby Mike. As in Bobby Knight. Yeah, yeah, he let it rip. Oh yeah. So you don't know what you're gonna get. Sure, sure, sure.

Well, he had a hard day at Boeing. Macurial. Right. Oh, there's layoffs at Boeing? Oh man, we're gonna run today. I'm in the real world. Yeah, so he's got this newspaper, Heath, read this shit. And I'm reading it, I'm like, what the fuck? They really said this.

Well, I would be offended and be like, you're probably right too. So here's the thing about that. We weren't like that. You know what I mean? You would think that. We'd fuck our own shit up. But no, it just would not happen. So I remember looking at everybody on the team. I'm like, what do y'all want to do about it? Kick the shit out of these guys. Now I still remember we beat them by 33 points. Oh, so fun. And it was a known thing in the community. Like don't do nothing. Just whoop their ass and just wave at them saying, get the fuck out of here. That was so gratifying. It was so good.

But at the same time, that was the high school I went to. People looked down upon us. They didn't expect us to become anything. Well, you had a shooting and a dance. Yep, first high school dance. Friends, brother got shot in the face six times, about 12 yards away from me. Obviously that's catastrophic.

You're not supposed to see these types of things in real life. Innocence gone. Right, it's not like you can file it into, well, that'll never happen again. Right, it's not like you can file it into, well that'll never happen again. No, it's reality. Cops in that moment were allowing those two kids to fight, thinking, disagreement, knuckle up, we're good.

Cause that's what everybody says online, like why can't they just knuckle up and just be done with it, catch a fade and let them move on. No, the kid came back, got into it again, the guy got the best of him, and now it's the embarrassment, because everybody's laughing. Yeah, there's nothing more dangerous.

That embarrassment obviously did a number on him, and he decided to take matters into his own hands, and it was scary as hell. But the problem was during that, you freeze, and then you turn and run. And then you realize you're banging on someone's car as they're driving off. I mean, why was I thinking that they would stop

and say, come on in. They're like, no, we're getting the hell out of this parking lot. We're going to skippers. We're going to get some deep fried fish. No shit. And then you're trying to run your ass off and then to go to a person that's working off duty security

at a local Safeway. And they're like, what the fuck you want me to do? What? You get the reality of it. Are you serious? They're like, wait a minute. So you're security, you're not going to do anything like, what the fuck you want me to do? What? You get the reality of it. Are you serious? They're like, wait a minute, so you're security, you're not gonna do anything, like what do you want me to do? It's over.

Oh my God. You would think, okay, someone's gonna rat this guy out, the justice system's gonna figure this out. Oh no, the streets figure that out within a week. So that dude got shot. Oh of course, it's just those things that you learn very quick. Life is not what you think it is, dude.

Okay, now you and I have this in common too. So we see Conan the Barbarian. It's life altering for me. I don't know that whole thing exists. I see him pushing that wooden wheel around. Oh, over and over. Did you have fear at that time? Did that look appealing to you in a way

that I could be safe if I looked like that? Not growing up. Growing up, it was more just fascinating over the fact that this guy looked like a freaking superhero. My thing was more focused on basketball. You know what I really loved growing up was those action films with martial arts. Oh, sure.

Bloodsport and Above the Law. Dude, you know Van Damme competed as a bodybuilder at one point. That doesn't surprise me. You know Sean Connery did too. He won Mr. Universe in the 60s or something like that. Mr. Europe or something. Van Damme was like Mr sixties or something like that. Mr. Europe or something. Van Damme was like Mr.

Belgium or something like that. Mr. Belvedere. Mr. Belgium. You know, my favorite John Claude Van Damme film, other than Bloodsport and Kickboxer, you got those two, was No Retreat, No Surrender. Have you seen that?

Yes, of course. He was the villain. The first scene of him walking in a dojo and just demoralizing that sensei. Yeah. He just beat the brakes off of this guy. And I was like, this dude is for real. The slicked back hair. I looked at that and was like, I gotta take karate lessons.

Cause if you gotta go get someone like that one day, you're fucked. And back then, Karate Kid was a big film. Oh yeah, we all these fantasies, we would learn some thing and then we would be invincible. Growing up in Seattle, Washington, especially during the eighties, you had to know martial arts. You wanted to learn it. Yeah, yeah, with all these fantasies, we would learn some thing and then we would be invincible. Growing up in Seattle, Washington, especially during the 80s, you had to know martial arts. You wanted to learn it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because of Bruce Lee influence, because he went to Universal Washington, all that. I remember my mom and I once we split from my father, moved in with my stepdad. Being a new kid on the block, I mean, you're going to get tested. So I got my ass whooped like the first week.

And my stepdad was like, uh-uh, that's not happening. Back in the day, you know, you come home with a bloody nose or something like your dad, let alone your guardian, they're not going to tolerate this because they know that this has to end. Yeah, it'll keep happening. They talk about this all the time. And they teach you. So he grabbed me by my shirt.

He walked me down two blocks and knocked on this guy's door. And that became my new sensei that afternoon. And I'm glad that that happened because it taught me respect, bowing before you enter the dojo, taking your shoes off, knowing how to be still and know how to meditate and just being able to exercise this controlled aggression through whether it be katas, which are forms and sparring and knowing that your intention through sparring isn't always to obviously kill the opponent that you're practicing with. And you knew that whoever wasn't in your class,

they would always say, don't practice this at home with your friends. So they taught you respect, and that's how I grew up. So then later on with basketball, I was taught that controlled aggression. But then I had a couple of coaches like Coach Mike Batia and another coach, Jason Basket, who were like, that's cool and everything,

but we need this aggression to come out on the basketball court. Because you're too short, you're athletic, but you're timid as fuck. we need this aggression to come out on the basketball court. Because you're too short, you're athletic, but you're timid as fuck. We need that guy to come out. We need to see some emotion and being an only child and pretty reserved and quiet. I really want to know your demeanor in high school. I want everybody to get along.

I'm the peacemaker. You're not trying to out alpha dudes, you're right. I was the guy that lacked confidence. I was the guy that didn't ask out the girl who I really wanted to ask out. I might have been friends with her friend. And then just like, kind of like settling. It seems like you're a pretty sweet kid.

Yeah, I'd say so. I had a couple friends growing up that had a lot more confidence and more swagger. And I just kind of cowered away and was like, all right, well, that's the reason why they like him because he's more confident. Even when I got into my pro career and bodybuilding I remember already having a cover of flex magazine

I already had the spotlight on me being a 2005. Mr USA going for his pro debut in Denver Like I'm a fan of half these guys that I read about the magazine but not looking in the mirror realizing I'm about to beat these guys today so I was just being almost too nice and then then my coach at the time, Hany Rambod, and the senior editor of Flex Magazine, Peter McGuff, they both saw me and they said, what the fuck are you doing, dude?

You gotta turn this on. You're gonna lose because of your lack of confidence. So I remember the lack of confidence I once had playing basketball that reentered in bodybuilding initially. And then once I was able to flip that switch of saying, no, it's time to rock and roll, Phil. You're good enough to win.

And then I'm like, I am. And then I look in the mirror, I am. And then I accepted it. And then I ran with it. Right. So you go to state on this basketball team in high school, you guys win state. You then go to Denver for basketball, play D1.

You're on a scholarship and you get there and you're a freshman so you're not playing a ton. And then sophomore year, you're hoping to make some real gains and some strides. You kind of hit a wall or you get to a point where you're like, I'm just not really becoming this thing I've been fantasizing about. Can we say this is depression number one?

This is depression number one for sure because I had turned down other scholarships just to go to this school because I was the guy that signed early, senior year in high school. So before my first high school game, I already had a scholarship. And I think that was more of my parents doing.

Then also maybe a lack of confidence. You want to take the bird in the hand. You're not willing to risk it. But again, this is my parents. They're like, this is what you do. Take it. They really like you. is what you do. Take it. They really like you. They call us all the time.

And I don't think they knew the whole recruiting process. Well, no one has any experience with this. And who are you going to call to find out? Well, now they do. But back in 1997, they didn't. They treat every kid like they're Alan Iverson and they get everyone believing they're Alan Iverson. Until you get on campus and then the coach is kind of like, let's change

this on this kid and then they realize where the kid's going to fall in place. And sophomore year, I had a really good preseason actually scored high. I remember hedging a screen and I remember getting injured, but I wouldn't say that that was the reason for me not playing anymore, but it was one of those situations where you definitely didn't help your cause because any college athlete understands this. The minute you get hurt, there's another guy in line. Yeah, right. The coaches already got your replacement. They got to put in somebody and now you got to rehab. And while you're rehabbing, that person is getting

more game reps than you are. The minute you get in, in the game, you're going to fuck it up because you don't have the same game reps. No matter how many times you've practiced, you don't have the muscle memory. You just don't have it. Like the speed of the game, you got to get in the flow. And if you're only playing two, three minutes at a time, it doesn't work. But you play all four years, right? School ends, you're coming to terms. And I think this is the part I'd love to delve into a lot. Cause this is how I also want to end it.

It's really tricky in life when you have an identity and for you, it had been, I guess, eight years at that point, I'm a basketball player. I know what the finish line is. It's the NBA in this crazy reality. All of a sudden I'm not other than I might play basketball player. I know what the finish line is. It's the NBA and this crazy reality all of a sudden, I'm not, other than I might play for fun. Yeah, I might play in a pro-am or try to get on that overseas trip. That just didn't make sense to me.

In your twenties, it's already scary. You're like, who am I gonna be as an adult? What am I pursuing? And then to have the thing that you are certain of disappear so quickly is fucking brutal and you had a real rough time with it. Absolutely. I was also facing the reality of the fact that I had friends that were already in

the NBA and playing at the university of Denver, every opposing team that was going against the Denver Nuggets practice at our university. I saw Kobe Bryant fresh out the gate. I saw Shaquille New, I saw Kobe Bryant fresh out the gate. I saw Shaquille Nip. I saw Nick Van Exel playing for the nuggets. And you're getting a taste. Wow, look at these guys.

Man, he's making jump shots like it's nothing. Check out his footwork. Who stays in after practice? Who's early? Who's late? How does he walk? Every athlete has a walk. Probably like every actor has a certain strut.

And you're like mesmerized by this. And then you realize that ain't you. You can only go as far as God said you're going to go. And at that time you can't see the bigger picture. You're the kid that used to sleep with his basketball the night before the game. You're the one that would over prepare. You're the one that was always undersized that played with a chip on his shoulder and you just did not get the minutes that you felt you were deserving of and your depression sets in and you

realize what the hell am I gonna do. I will say fortunately for me I was sitting next to a guy that was competing in amateur bodybuilding. Was he a roommate? He just was a classmate. Oh okay. I was in a programming class. I was in an Oracle 9i class doing all this shit and I'm looking at his laptop. He's got Ronnie Coleman, Jay Cutler, all these guys. I got Brooke Burke on my laptop. I'm like, what the hell is going on here, bro? And then I just realized by him explaining it to me, this is what I am into.

I'm into working out for aesthetics and performance and you're just been functional fitness for basketball. So I was always muscular as a basketball player. These pictures of you as a basketball player, we have a good start. You're pretty overly muscular. Oh, for a Hooper? Yeah. Absolutely.

You have some good genes. My friends back home, they'd be like, look at the buff midget. Adoringly held you. When I would take the shooting jacket off in college, people would laugh. They'd be like, who the fuck is this guy? Cause you know, the student section

is usually right behind you. And they're just riding you. They're like, we didn't know Denver had a football team. Where'd you get this guy? And then they're like, wait the fuck is this guy? Because the student section is usually right behind you. And they're just riding you. They're like, we didn't know Denver had a football team. Where'd you get this guy? And then they're like, wait a minute, why does his legs look like this? He can dunk? When your identity is tied to that

and you start comparing yourself to other people who did make it, and that was my problem. And when you see those hoop dreams just not work out, you tend to forget what is working out. And what was working out was the fact that I still had a scholarship at a prestigious university. Everything's paid for, even the fifth year, and I'm not showing gratitude for that.

I only wanna play. So during that fifth year, I had to recognize what was working out for me. And this new sport of bodybuilding, April 4th, 2003, I did my first amateur show, won everything. Hold on, no, you have a drinking spell in there. I didn't drink until I turned 21. I didn't do any, that was freaking boring.

But was it because basketball? It was a combination of everything. I didn't want to screw a good thing up with basketball. At the time, I just didn't feel like I needed to party to have a good time. Honestly, I wanted to be around the guys and hang out with the girls. That was good enough for me,

but then once you turn 21, they're like here. That's party. We actually played on my 21st birthday. So we played against Colorado State over in Fort Collins and we lost. Of course we did. We lost a lot. So the whole goal was to play up there,

win and throw a party. As corny as it may sound today, I just wanted to go to Dave and Buster's without my fake ID anymore. Right. Because you had to be over 21. So I was living in a basketball house. It was like five of us.

And it's just a thing to do on off days from playing hoops. And I didn't think of it as a coping mechanism. If anything, I thought it was something that brought us together. And you're just laughing. You're telling Joe's talking trash. It helps boys be kind of emotional with each other, which they can't normally. You're drunk. You can say to your friend, like, I fucking love you.

You can't say that sober. I think for boys in particular, you're just craving you can say to your friend like, I fucking love you. You can't say that sober. I think for boys in particular, you're just craving it so much, and this thing allows you to be really close with each other in a way that feels quite nice. It was, but at the same time, I did realize that waking up the next day, having to go to practice was not fun,

and that had to get cut off at some point. It was our senior season, we played in the Sunbelt Conference. Just on one road trip, we would play South Alabama, And that had to get cut off at some point. It was our senior season. We played in the Sunbelt Conference. Just on one road trip, we would play South Alabama. So we play in Mobile. We would then drive 45 minutes to go play University of New Orleans.

Then we would drive up to play Louisiana Lafayette and Louisiana Tech and then fly out. There's Mardi Gras going on in New Orleans. During these months. You used to stay at this Marriott right off of Canal and Bourbon and coach would be like, stay in your fucking room. The freaking coach USA driver took us out one night. Okay.

And we just use that per DM to go party, man, having hurricanes and hand grenades. And then you recognize that this is getting out of hand. There was a couple of teammates that got into some bad trouble. One had to take time off from the team because now you're mixing pain meds with that. You start to see the negative effects of it. I recognize that, but I will say I had the ability to stop. I was very lucky. I know a lot of other people couldn't stop.

That's why bodybuilding worked out so well for me because you can't be a rock star in a bodybuilder because when I did my first show and I won, I drank all night and came out that next morning bloated as hell. Those types of carbs from beers just don't work right after you've been depleting for so long. And I was embarrassed because I didn't look the part. So I was like, I'm not going to do that again. I should have more respect for my health.

So bodybuilding for me, it always made sense to say, okay, for four months out of the year when I'm training for competition, there is none of that. And I actually liked that because first of all, it was working. And second of all, it reminded me that I was doing something that very few people can do. Maybe that sounds arrogant, but I think a lot of people need to learn self-control.

I could still go out and go have a beer later. I'd be like, yeah, maybe one. And maybe I'll only drink half of that. If you were to ask my wife, how is Phil when you guys go out to a nice dinner and there's dessert on the table, she'll tell you, Phil will leave half of that shit on the table on purpose just to prove to himself

that he doesn't have to do it, but he can do it. Well, okay, so this is one I want to suggest. So we had Letterman on. He hasn't drank for the last 30 years or something. Wow. He quit because he was an alcoholic But he never went to a and I said do you think it's possible? That you didn't need a because you had another drug stepped in and he said a hundred percent every night

I had a live audience Yep to get the body you got to train like you did to do what needs to be done Which I don't think people really broadly have an understanding of. You have to be fucking addicted to it. It has to be an obsession and an addiction. I imagine genetically you're predisposed to be an addict with your parents. And I just wonder if you found the addiction that didn't take you down.

Is there a drug of looking fantastic? Yeah, how does that make you feel? Wonderful, but there's a competitive aspect about it. That's really got the driver because you know how many people I know they could probably train as hard or train harder than me quite a few but they can't die and train and do cardio and say no to people and communicate with their spouse and communicate with their friends and family and then have Curve balls thrown at their asses with life happening, with people dying, or friends fucking them over, or business, media requests. I'm doing these appearances right now,

and I've been traveling all year, which is dope, but my back is fucking hurting right now. But you do it. That's our bad couch, I'm sorry. No, no, no, you're fine. I'm being transparent. Hey Phil, you signed up for this. You signed up also for the unknown.

You signed up for the fact that everything isn't always gonna be in your favor, but you can make it that way if you stay committed to your purpose. And then just knowing that if it was easy, everybody would be good. And it always felt great being on a bodybuilding stage. And that person standing next to me knows they fucked up.

Knows that they didn't train as hard. Knows that they made a mistake. They didn't cut right. They took a chance of, oh, I'm going to eat pizza and do a cheat meal because last time I did it, it made me fuller, made me drier and harder. Well, that was last time. You tried that shit this time,

instead of getting 5% better, you got 20% worse. All you had to do is just stay committed to the process of eating this bland ass meal for like six more hours. Maybe you would have won those 0.1% opportunities that many of us miss because of the lack of discipline at the most opportune time. Still to this day, I thrive in those situations. There's more skulls that I got to collect.

There's more titles that I must have. There's more adversity that I must be willing to go through that I don't even know what's going to happen. I didn't know that my dad was going to die when I must have. There's more adversity that I must be willing to go through that I don't even know what's gonna happen. I didn't know that my dad was gonna die when I was competing. I didn't know I was gonna get a divorce. You have friends that don't like the fact that you're going through that.

You have the media that's fucking with you. We're getting more and more isolated. Winning is not the quickest road to friendships. Like we had Sean White on here. You would think he was loved in the snowboard community. He was hated. When he would show up,'d be like, fuck now we're fighting for a second. That's not fun for them. They've been trying all year. Right. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert... if you dare.

Let's go through the meteoric rise. You start competing and if I understood the doc correctly, you never didn't win. Correct. Oh my God. I'm watching and I'm like, did I hear that correctly? It's pretty wild. So like I did my first show, it was the NPC Northern Colorado is in Boulder, Colorado. I did the novice in the open overall.

I won both. I did the Mr. Colorado two months later. I won my weight class, but not the overall. So technically I didn't win the entire thing, but I was undefeated as an amateur, so to speak, because I never lost a weight division. But then I came back that following year, won the Mr. Colorado, then went to the junior nationals, won that, got signed with Flex magazine, Muscle and Fitness, and then won the Mr.

USA that following month in July of 05, with the cover of Flex that same night. When you get signed to Flex, what did that mean? That means you're exclusive. So I can appear in multiple magazines. They'll have contests, photographers, but training, my mindset, you know, my words, my image and likeness will only be featured

in Muscle and Fitness and Flex. Is that a yearly contract? It was always two years. And is it enough to pay for everything? Because you have to train and eat all day long. Oh yeah. You can't do anything else. No.

How Ronnie Coleman was a cop, I don't understand. I believe talking to Ronnie about it, he competed through his third Mr. Olympia title as a police officer. And I know he loved it. He's his own thing. We got to talk about him. I know firsthand what that travel schedule is like.

Once your travel schedule goes through the roof, like well over a hundred thousand miles a year, you have to quit your day job. You know, I was working at a Valley total fitness as a retail store manager and I was catching shit, but when you're traveling every weekend to do guest appearances, autograph signings, we kind of touched on it, but now would be a good time. Your life at that time is your training, I imagine twice a day. Twice a day, hour and a half.

So three hours a day, but you got to eat every two hours and it takes you a minute to eat cause you're fucking pounding. Oh yeah. Fruiting up. To have a normal job and eat the way you're supposed to is almost impossible. That's why you work at a gym. Right. No one's going to freak out if they see you eating. But is almost impossible. That's why you work at a gym. Right.

No one's going to freak out if they see you eating. But you imagine being Ronnie Coleman's partner in his car and like he's driving around in the squad car and he's got a fucking whole roast chicken that he's got to get down in between the next call. That's why he didn't have a partner because they're probably like, there's no way I could even focus smelling all this chicken. So when you got this Flex magazine contract, you can live on that. I did. I knew that it would lead to other things.

So normally, it's different nowadays, but when you turn pro, especially you missed USA, you would automatically get that exclusive contract with a magazine back then it was Flex, Muscular Development or Iron Man. Then you would get a supplement sponsor also. So I didn't have both right away, a lot of people did, but I was getting paid so much from Weeder with the publications that it was almost

as if I was getting a supplement contract as well. So they bumped my pay up pretty nicely. So therefore I did not need to work that following year in 06 when I won my first two pro shows, my stock went up tremendously because I already proven myself. That was when I first signed a supplement contract. Probably beneficial that you had waited that long. You had a lot more leverage I'd imagine. Oh yeah. Had you been stuck in one at the beginning

of your career. Correct. Are those hundreds of thousands of dollars contracts or can they be millions of dollars? I was the first one. That was a million? Not then. But it grew into that. So I along with I know Jay was almost a million. I know Ronnie was close. He might have hit that but I can confirm that I know Jay was almost a million. I know Ronnie was close. He might've hit that, but I can confirm that I was the first on paper that was over 100 a month. That's awesome. It was great feeling to know that that was possible. Obviously it took a shit ton of work just to get there

cause it wasn't right out the gate. Like that doesn't happen. And especially nowadays for anyone thinking that you're gonna get a million dollar supplement contract, it ain't happening. It's almost worse today because of social media algorithms. That data is just different. Yeah, well they could pay 16 influencers

with a aggregate following that beats the one person. I'm always advocating for the pro. Yeah, the real deal. Because yeah, you could find some kids. I get it. I can't knock the TikTok hustle. I'm happy for anyone making money doing it. I'm glad, but at the same time, they're not the same.

A pro is different than a casual observer. Yes, you have a line at an expo. Yes, you have millions of followers maybe, but don't you fucking dare compare yourself to someone that will literally put it on the line in front of judges that adjudicate them. You're not the same. Yeah, exactly.

But it's a wild time for our sport because there's plenty of pros now that I do believe are more influencer than competitor. They're forced to now. Yeah, it's part of the business. Actors, same thing, it's all muddy now. Okay, but we gotta explain to Monica the importance of Mr. Olympia.

It transcends every other event. It's the Olympics. Mr. Olympia is it. Arnold every other event. It's the Olympics. Mr. Olympia is it. Arnold won seven. Is it once a year? Once a year. It's our Super Bowl of bodybuilding. So anyone that will say,

oh yeah, my friend, he's a bodybuilder. It's like, okay, what did they want? You just cut the bullshit. And if they say they won the Olympia, because I've had people say this, oh yeah, my friend, he won the Olympia. I go, what's his name? Was it the amateur Olympia?

Because it might've been that shit. Because there's only one winner? Per category, yes. But Arnold is Arnold because he won seven. Got it. And that was unheard of and impossible, and he was the gold standard. And then this fucking freak came along, Ronnie Coleman,

who, by the way, have you watched his documentary? Oh yeah. It's beautiful, and I wanna talk to you about that. Again, I have very little knowledge of this world, but I see what this man did and the sweetness of this man and the way trained and he won eight Monica. Oh wow, he's so past Arnold. And I don't think there had been

a run of black winners either. So there was Chris Dickerson who's black and then Lee Haney who was black and Lee Haney actually won eight. Oh. Yeah, so Lee Haney won eight after Arnold. and Lee Haney actually won eight. Oh. Yeah, so Lee Haney won eight after arm. Oh, so then I scrapped my observation. No, but the reason why Ronnie Coleman is so special,

not that Lee Haney isn't, Ronnie was a former college football player at Grambling State, majored in accounting. Saddest part of the doc. They were not gonna hire a black guy to be an accountant in the deep south. Ronnie's such a sweet guy, he's justifying it. They all said I needed some work experience, but it's like, how do you get it?

Especially in that's a profession, but he's so kind and sweet. It's like, no, Ronnie, that was fucking racism. Mad cum laude. Yes. You're given these milestones that you have to achieve. So you'd be treated equally and he does it and they move the fucking goalpost again. Heartbreaking.

So it's definitely heartbreaking because he's now delivering pizzas and newspapers, a college standout academically with a degree in accounting. He didn't just, we don't talk shit about other majors. We don't have to call out other majors, but we all know what we're thinking. It's accounting. Yes. Like we all need one.

And he wanted to be an accountant and they literally wouldn't let him. And he delivers pizzas and then he becomes a cop. And then he starts training and he's a monster. Now in hindsight, Monica, this was not the way to do it. He was powerlifting prior. Being a football player, I mean, the guy was already jacked. His warmup for squats would be like 500 pounds.

Like this guy is out training everybody. He could have been like a world-class powerlifter. Oh, for sure, because he was on that path. But if you look at some of the old videos of him powerlifting, he looked like a bodybuilder. I believe in his story, Brian Dobson, he owned a Metroflex in Arlington and gave Ronnie a opportunity to have a free gym membership. If he did a bodybuilding competition. So Ronnie was like, well, I don't want to pay. So I guess I'll do it.

Ronnie just becomes this monster. He also pushes the sport in a way. I would imagine Arnold when he's winning those, what is he, about 240? Yeah, it was like mid 240s. And tall, so 6'1-ish. Ronnie comes along, and Ronnie starts winning. Mr. Olympia's at 300. This has never been seen. He's a freak.

He was a problem, meaning you want to go against the guys like Flex Wheeler, Sean Ray, like these more aesthetic, just beautiful, round sculpted physiques. Marvel superheroes, they have all this definition, right? Ronnie had all that. He was 5'11", long arms, long legs, but round and could out-condition. He's making everybody look like they're in 720p and he's 4K.

With the roundness, it's just more muscle per square inch. The muscle now jumps out at you and you're like, oh shit, I can see this muscle on an anatomy chart, but this is a human being that stands amongst us and he can outlift you. You look at guys like Dorian Yates, who was out of Birmingham, England, and he was known for just hardcore training and he could outwork anyone. It sucks because we have to talk about this with bodybuilding. People talk about race.

So they say white guys can't beat black guys, right? But Dorian did he won six, Mr Olympias his muscles were sculpted They were hard just grainy look like granite and then Lee Haney was more round But when Ronnie came he had the best of both and that's what made him so formidable But race comes up in that doc, which is black dudes have a harder time building calves is the not me stereotype have a harder time building calves is the stereotype. But that was in there. And Ronnie's like, oh shit, I gotta fucking,

I gotta murder these calves. So interesting. It is interesting because it's a sport where when you turn pro, you're known for like one strength. Arnold's chest. Right, but when you win the Olympia, you're known for the least amount of weaknesses. Oh, interesting.

Not your strength. Especially when you repeat over and over again. It's kind of like any other sport. At some point in time, we nitpick the shit out of the best competitor. But that means you're the best, that means you're the standard. But when it comes to being Mr. Olympia,

Arnold won seven, Kenny won eight, Ronnie won eight, I won seven, it's the Mount Rushmore. And now we get to transfer those same qualities into business and to life. But I gotta interject some stuff. There's some intangibles too, because Arnold had just so much charisma. Two bodies are dead equal.

He's winning. He has charisma. You proved it. He is a movie star. You have a lot of charisma. Oh, thanks. So charisma is in the mix. You see some guys up there,

and I'm watching this last night. I'm a lay person. I can't really tell this or that. But just like acting, Phil looks like he loves this job. He's happy. He's got a smile. He's up there to show off. And other dudes are up there

and they don't have that personality innately. There's a lot of different things that are going into the stew. As a viewer, you enjoy watching someone more than you enjoy watching another person. I think it plays a role, especially if it's close. You always look at a professional that makes the hardest thing look easy. Yeah, yeah.

If it looks daunting, then it's like, this guy's struggling. And some people like to see that, but not when you're supposed to give a performance. I enjoyed every minute of it. I enjoyed the competition more than anything. There was also money involved. There's sponsorships, there's legacy. There's enough of this fucking diet that I am like, I've had it.

Like when you're on stage, you're like, okay, this is it. I ate all that food. I did all that freaking cardio. I said no to everything. I know I did everything right. See, there's some delusion that comes into this sport as well because especially nowadays, everybody's telling you how great you are on social media,

the overindulgence of taking the pictures, and then you're posting, posting, posting to get more likes, likes, likes, and then the fan will say, he doesn't look like that on stage. It's like, yeah, dumbass, but the competitor should know better. The competitor should know that the pictures I take

in this natural lighting, without the oil, oil without the bronzer without standing next to another Competitor that's everything you learn that watching the doc elevated on a platform the parallax between left and right where the judges sit you have to go through all these different intangibles and Realize that man. I probably shouldn't have posted as much I should have just posted just enough to keep them engaged Maybe I should have posted with just a t-shirt on and just talk to them or better yet. Maybe I saved those photographs like Phil Heath did his entire career and you saw the docs. So you got to see my very first selfie.

Yeah. Yeah. He starts doing this thing. It's very scientific. As soon as he starts bodybuilding at first, he's like, I'm going to take a picture once a month. Then he's like, I'm going to take a picture once a week. And he's like, no, I'm going to take a picture every time I lift. So I can actually

be objective about this. He would draw on these pictures. These calves need to look like this. It was scientific. You have to know where you're going, right? You have to figure this out. And it's not just, oh yeah, it's about the destination. It's like, I got to know every freaking day that I'm getting closer. And I have to explain to someone one day that this is how I freaking did it, how my blueprint worked for me. And now I can be of service to many other people that say, Hey, I want to be a bodybuilder. I want to do this.

I want to do that. Like, okay, well, are you willing to do these things? Because that's what it's going to require. Otherwise you're going to pay someone to make sure they do these things for you. Well, you're coaching it. Honey. He's like, Oh, he's my favorite guy to coach because he came out of the world of sports.

He's used to having a coach go like, no, no, this sucks. You gotta work on this. Here's a weakness. The coach's worst problem is the guy that's uncoachable. We've all seen this. Unfortunately, this is me. This is my character defect. You just like, fuck this?

I'm too embarrassed. If you point out something, I get too embarrassed. And then you shut down? Yeah, it's terrible. This is my weakness. I think I could have been really good at a lot of things if I could just receive instruction. Maybe it was just the person though. I think it's me. This is my weakness. I think I could have been really good at a lot of things if I could just receive instruction. Maybe it was just the person though.

I think it's me, younger brother syndrome. Well, at least you raise your hand and you know what it is. A lot of people live in delusion. Big weakness of mine. It's still working out for him. He's doing okay. Life's okay. Okay, so the story is so good.

People love taking this ride. Your first Olympia, you come in third. You're against Jay Cutler, you guys are buddies. 2011, you start winning and then you just win 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016. Is it getting scary? 2017. Scary like how?

Every time you come back, you're like, it's mine to lose. I don't wanna disrespect anyone he was competing against because he had a lot of good competition in that. But in the same way when you watched Arnold, like if you watch Pumping Iron, even if you don't know, it's pretty fucking obvious. Then of course it's a great story. He's got this hernia, it fucks up his entire abdomen,

he's gotta get surgery, and it destroys you. And then even when I'm watching your comeback in 2020, of course I'm rooting for you, you're the hero of my movie. But I'm looking and I'm like, you've done a good job on the abs, but that ship sailed. And that's the problem that the athlete has to remember. You're being compared against your old self. To you.

Which is fucked up because you're supposed to be compared to the people you standing next to. When Michael Jordan came back and he played for the Wizards, still at all star numbers, but we're like, yeah, but he is not like MJ. He's shitting me. He's still playing at a high level, but they only criticized the best for me

in that particular show. So I had 27 month layoff between 2018 Olympia and 2020 Olympia because of the surgery. And during that time, I hadn't seen Hany, especially during COVID. He had lost his father. I just know in my heart, he was in his own funk and he just did not want to leave. He didn't travel. Normally he would

travel. We'd meet up. We'd figure these things out. And I'm not making excuses. These are just things that happen that normally wouldn't. And we missed. It was the one time in my freaking career where the diet toward the end, some decisions were made. And when you miss in this sport, you lose. The meticulousness of it is insane. It is insane. The water drop. Water drop.

The water drop means normally when you're training for a competition, you want to keep your body hydrated. So you're drinking for me, a gallon and a half to two gallons of water per day. You're splitting it up. You're not just drinking all at once. I have like a 25 ounce shaker cup and I would just fill that up

and I drink that like every 90 minutes. So I had it on the clock. You're running through the freaking bathroom. Like Nahe is getting through it. Give her an example. What's your weight at before you start cutting and then on the stage. So I'd be 280 pounds.

I'm 5'9 and I get all the way down to 246, 248. From the water and the pee? No, no, no, no, no. Just from the diet alone. So like right before the show, I'd be low 250s. And then we would call it drop the hammer, do like a water depletion. Diuretics.

We play around with that a little bit, but unfortunately diuretics can kill you. This blood pressure meds, you give that to people that have excessive fluids, right? So where bodybuilders have up their bodies, especially their physiques, how it looks, typical person would say, oh yeah, just continue to drink your water

however you want, eat within certain parameters. You can still salt your food. Just take the diuretics, man, you'll be fine. You don't wanna do that because if you miss, you're gonna look like you never died a day in your life and you're creating a huge freaking problem that you do not wanna be going to the hospital for this dehydration and then your body rebounds

and then it's even 10 times worse and then you become holding water you're messing up your kidneys at this point it's just stupid so our thing was if we got to over diet a little bit maybe lose a couple pounds of muscle just to get through that extra layer of fat that marbling of fat so be it because then when you do the water depletion so as you're going from two gallons to a gallon and a half to one gallon to half a gallon you're increasing your carbohydrates because it takes a certain amount of water to process one carb. You got to be a chemist.

So you're doing this for, and then you realize, wait a minute, if I time this right, I don't need a diuretic, which in fact will keep your blood pressure correct so then you can get a pump. But if you screw up and you rely on the diuretics, low blood pressure, how are you going to get a pump? So these guys, they say, oh, I look flat. So now they're overeating. And then as you're doing that, your stomach gets bloated

because of the fact that you got too much food in your system without enough water and you haven't taken a shit. So therefore, people think it's always because of this growth hormone or insulin or whatever it is, it's like, no, dude, the guy hasn't taken a poo. It's simpler than that.

And it's very simple. It's like the guy's bloated because he's trying to eat all this food because he knows it's gonna help with the glycogen storage and it's very simple. It's like the guy's bloated because he's trying to eat all this food because he knows it's going to help with the glycogen storage and it's going to make his muscles pop. It's just a complete disaster. So like in 2020, it just didn't work out for me. And normally if I missed a little bit, I could rebound on that Saturday night

because it's a two-day comp. But this time it was just like, ah, of course everybody thinks they should have placed at least one slot higher. I still think I could have got second, but even then it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, it's the Olympia or nothing. And the best part about it, and you'll see this in Breaking the Olympia is that in 2008, I did my first mission Olympia. I placed third in 2020. I placed third. I know you don't like it, but on the outside for story, it's nice and neat. There's something about bookending that that's kind of sweet. I like it. I came to grips with that right away.

I didn't know how much of it was performative or how sincere it was, but you seemed to take it pretty well. Well, I had to because we had already been filming Breaking Olympia years prior and in 2019 we were done. And then COVID happened and I was like, I just watched the 2019 Olympia and I thought right then and there, I could have won that COVID. This is an antagonist that I kind of need.

So what if I win that? Because there's those types of people like a John Elway that wins the two Super Bowls and rise off in the sunset. I had friends that were like, dude, you already won seven. You're tired with Schwarzenegger. You can coin that and walk away. And end on top. And end on top because the average person would say,

how would I just end it on top? And I'd top, because the average person would say, how would I just end it on top? And I'd say, yeah, you fucking would have. And in fact, you would have probably stopped at one. Right. Because of the risk of the unknown, and finding out who the fuck you really are, and knowing that someone may get left behind, and all of the stress and the pressure and the sleepless nights and the early mornings. But to me, it was all worth it, because at least I could say,

two times I went for number eight. Right now in bodybuilding, there's no one in the early mornings. But to me it was all worth it because at least I could say two times I went for number eight right now in bodybuilding. There's no one in the world that can say I'm going to try to tie the all time record. That's going to take some time. So I wanted to give my best on a shot. And I had a friend in Dwayne Johnson. He and I had some intimate conversations about his career in wrestling, how he had to step away at one point to focus on other things and what that meant. By the way, it's also worth pointing out,

he has the same inciting incident as you and Ronnie and everyone, which is Ronnie's football career didn't work out, your basketball and The Rock's football career didn't work out. And we pivoted and we leveraged it. This is a great time to say it, and I said it to my 10 year old, because you're watching all these guys, Jay Cutler's in it a lot, who won four times,

Ronnie Coleman's in it, you're in it, they go to The Rock, I said out loud, I'm like, because you're watching all these guys, Jay Cutler's in it a lot, who won four times, Ronnie Coleman's in it, you're in it. They go to the rock, I said out loud, I'm like, oh my God, the rock looks small, doesn't he? And Lincoln's like, oh my God, he does. I'm like, oh my God, this is fucking insane that you just adjust to what you're seeing, and they show the rock and he kinda looked normal.

That is so weird. This guy is like two seats in. He's not a normal dude, trust me, I like this. This guy ain't normal, man. No, no. He's a big dude. Yes. We train together at Iron Paradise. I feel very privileged to say that I train there with them. You're probably dying to get down to Black Mole Paradise. Yeah, Dax has Black Mole Paradise downstairs. Black Mole Paradise is just below us.

I don't want that. Yes. You're going into Black Mole and you're gonna get those spores. No, I don't want that. Accravating spores. But yeah, it's wild because we're all just trying to be the best versions of ourselves through life's challenges. And in Breaking Olympia, I mean, you're able to see myself, but then also, like you said, I mean, you get to hear from other athletes in there. We all have to give up something and it's all to be remembered. Okay.

Well, I'm really glad you're really well versed in the Ronnie Coleman doc because we had seen him the other day I've had a lot of people I've gotten to ask this question to the real takeaway for me of the Coleman doc is You're watching him wake up at 4 and go to the gym and he can't walk Then he has to train still and I love him, but I'm watching that and I go man. Our identities are so tricky. Yeah, this man might kill himself because he can't be small. I don't even think it's the size aspect. I just think, actually I know that Ronnie Coleman loves being Mr. Olympia.

That's what drove him. Well, it saved him also. I'd say so. He inspired all of us through his body of work. This is a man in 2004 that guest posed. Well, it saved him also. I'd say so. He inspired all of us through his body of work. This is a man in 2004 that guest posed. It's called the NPC Rocky Mountain Championships in Denver, Colorado at East High School. I saw him there signing autographs in the morning.

I waited two hours then and decided, okay, I'll see him at the night show. I got to go get something to eat. And I waited two and a half more hours to get his autograph that night. I made sure I was the last person. I just wanted to be the last guy. And I bought four eight by 10 autographs from him. It wasn't one of those moments where I was like, you'll know my name one day.

It wasn't even about that. I'm just a fucking fan. And I'm just observing like how he carried himself as a professional, how he smiled and answered questions. And lo and behold, that following year, obviously I turned pro and I ended up having to cover Flex. I ended up watching him compete for number eight

in 05 in Las Vegas, only to figure out that Hone Rambon was one of his best friends. And I had met Hone a month prior. And we just clicked right away. So Hone saw me at an after party, decided to say, hey, come hang out with us. I'm like, I get to hang out with Ronnie fucking Coleman

after you just one number eight. And to fast forward and seeing Ronnie Coleman at my after party, seeing Ronnie Coleman guest pose and then slowly on the decline with his hips, with his neck and back. He's had, I guess, 12 back surgeries. This hardware for back surgery, it's gotta be specific for a person's size,

but I don't think they could take into account his type of muscle. Yeah, they're not designing shit for a person's size, but I don't think they could take into account his type of muscle. Yeah, they're not designing shit for a guy that's 300 pounds of muscle. They needed some vibranium shit. Real talk, they needed something futuristic because I know having two hernia surgeries, then my second one was worse than the first one.

And then when they put that mesh in, but I had titanium staples in mine, and second time, I popped one of the staples out through my own skin. I had to go back into surgery for 20 minutes just to get it pulled out. So I know if that can happen to me on that small scale, I can only imagine Ronnie because Ronnie had a surgery and within 90 minutes, two hours later, throw him back in because he already broke through the heart work.

His body is just different than anyone else in the fucking world. And I've watched it. I never got to compete against him, but I got to see him up close competing against Jay Cutler. I was there when he won his eighth. I was there when he lost to Jay and the torch was passed on. I was there when Ronnie Coleman retired on stage. There was not a dry eye in that place.

He was the best steward of them. God bless Ronnie Coleman, man, because he ultimately just loved being Mr. Olympian. That's why he still trains. When you're watching, I'm going to make you go deep. It is heartbreaking to watch him hurt himself. You don't see him hurt himself in the gym. You just know later.

That's not good for the back and what he's dealing with. You don't think of it like that. You watch him squat 800 pounds and he does it for more than one rep. He puts on a squat suit. It's during the cost of redemption. that you watch him squat 800 pounds and he does it for more than one rep he puts on a squat suit it's during the cost of redemption so Ronnie Coleman had won the 2002 Mr. Olympia there was a guy by the name of Gunter Schlierkamp who got fifth who then went on tour I want to say like a month later and beat Ronnie Coleman at the GNC show of strength. Anytime that happens, everybody thinks he's vulnerable.

Ronnie Coleman can be beaten. What did Ronnie Coleman do? He went back in the gym and said, that shit ain't ever gonna happen again. And that's when he did this DVD called The Cost of Redemption. You need to fucking watch this. He did the most uncanny weight. In one leg session, this guy's doing 800 pound squat.

I think he got it for three. He said he could have got it for more. And then he did like a 2,300 pound leg press. And he's doing this for a set of 10 during the same. This workout will never be duplicated because you might be able to do the workout, but you won't look like him while doing it. You won't have that muscle.

You might just be a strong ass dude. You'd be like one of these strong men's. But you wouldn't have the definition. I think those are the workouts collectively over time that you're gonna have compression. He slipped a disc in one of his back workouts. And of course that happens. He didn't have the same recovery protocol,

I think that he would have had maybe today. Jay Cutler's in the dock and he said, look, we do it differently now. We don't do the heavy weight. We do more reps. Still heavy. Trust me. Just for context for everybody, like it's still fucking heavy.

We're not doing 800 pound squat, but we're now like Ronnie Coleman. No, Ronnie Coleman is in a league of his own. You know, you're taking like your best lift. Let's say you're saying, oh man, I could bench 500 pounds. He's like 500 pounds. Okay. I'll do that for 12. I can only do that for a single.

Shit. All in one workout, he could do like 200 pound dumbbell presses in one hand. So crazy. It's not just one exercise. He's doing that plus incline dumbbell press. He's a superhero. No bullshit. He is a superhero.

You ask him, would you change up anything? And he says, no. He seems to be at peace with it, but I guess on the outside, what I wanted to say is like, you know you'd be loved by everyone no matter what size you were. I would want him to hear that and believe that.

You think that's what it was though, or just the pursuit of I'm gonna go as far as I can? Yeah, maybe, maybe I'm totally wrong. I think that's what it was. I just know what it's like for me to have an identity, and that's why people like me, and I'm wrong all the time. Turns out people like me for way different reasons than I think. That could what it's like for me to have an identity and that's why people like me and I'm wrong all the time Turns out people like me for way different reasons than I think that could be part of it Maybe I have to ask him but I will say that Ronnie Coleman has still

One of the longest cues at an expo you'll ever see so even with him in a wheelchair He's also eatin oxy-8. He's like fucking M&Ms, and I'm an ex op addict. The amount of fucking opiates he has that'll be on to exist. It's not ideal. It's not ideal. You can tell there's a point in time where you're doing interviews and speech is definitely compromised. How old is he? He's paying the price.

Is he turning? 59? Yeah, he's turning 60. Big birthday year. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. I ask you all this because you have this huge transition that you're in the middle of, and I'm wondering what stuff is hard for you.

Like, A, let's just go through. You had a regiment that was so time consuming that there wasn't space for you to be wandering. Right. What should I be doing? There was no time for that. You now have this time to contemplate where you're at in life, which can lead to depression.

There's all this stuff. You were the best, now you're retired. How big do you stay? This is a question you have to be wondering. I have to imagine for you, it's really heavy on your plate. When I decided to do a bodybuilding show, I think of every freaking scenario, every permutation possible.

I have to, because it's not just me involved. It's my wife involved, his friends, his family, people who you lean on for assistance, for resources. I know in my whole being, I could compete and be highly competitive at the Olympia level, if not win another one. I have to fight that demon every time I go to the gym. So it was to a point where I have not been to the gym,

ladies and gentlemen, I haven't been to the gym for one consecutive month since I trained for that last show. Part of it was because I needed to know who I was aside from the weightlifting. So like we're talking about going deep, I had to figure this out because majority of people go to the gym as a bandaid for their problems. Why not just rip the bandaid off and see who you really are? But that's the problem.

People may lack the discipline or the space to then not go into complete darkness and drugs, alcohol, women, gambling, just mistreating your whole soul. And yeah, I had moments where I was unsure of myself. I know that I'm supposed to be this massive entrepreneur. I know I'm supposed to be this public global speaker. I've done that even while I was competing, but now I'm talking about perseverance in a different way.

I'm reapplying what I know and knowing that I have a great future, but oh shit, I'm starting to feel like I'm back in this basketball scenario again. So let's not allow it to happen. Let's now unpack everything. This is going to take a lot of fucking time. Thank God for breaking Olympia. We ended up doing more interviews because you realize that you're not going deep enough. And although it costs money, it was worth it because I wanted to be my most vulnerable,

authentic self for the viewers because I needed them to see me as a man. I needed people to see me beyond just a bodybuilder. I needed them to understand that this is not a story about protein shakes and steroids. This is about a man's journey to find himself and love himself through the hardest battles of his life. Well, my favorite stuff is you copying to the Instagram addiction, how easily you get ensnared in it. I'm like, oh man, I relate to that.

I know about reading comments and clapping back and going, why on earth am I giving that person attention? And then you're realizing you're giving attention to people. When there's all these people that said they loved you that you just hearted. You know, I got millions of people that love me and I don't care about that, but I care about this jackass living in mom's basement. Or maybe he's just a person

that doesn't live in mom's basement. I don't know what his life is. Yeah, we don't know it, so we don't need to care. Right, it's because, yeah, I carry insecurity, but you know what's funny? When people say, oh, you're insecure. Fuck yeah, I am. Really want to know why?

Because I give a shit. I twist these different definitions, like, oh, you're insecure. Yeah, that keeps me going. That keeps me not satisfied. See, your security got you in a box. You're comfortable. That's why you don't have what you truly desire

because you're scared because you know that on the outside of that secure box is insecurity, is the unknown, is the problems, is the shit that you got to deal with. And removing bodybuilding for me allowed me an opportunity. Just like COVID, when COVID hit, what do people do? They drank, domestic violence increased, bad habits and bad patterns increased.

For me, I looked at it as an opportunity to realize, okay, Phil, you have a lot of demons, dude. You're not going to the gym and you're like scratching. You're an addict, you need to go to the gym. When times got rough, I'd tell my wife, I need to go to the gym, I need to go to the gym. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When times got rough, I'd tell my wife, I need to go to the gym. I need to go to the gym. Like, I'm a straight up addict.

She'd be like, no, you have these things you gotta do. I don't know, I don't know. You're coming out of body. And then I had to sit with it and be calm. And I had to get on my knees and just scream, pound the pavement. What is my purpose? What am I supposed to do right now?

I know what it takes to be Mr. Olympia. I don't know what it takes to be Phil Heath. That's just different. So like, what does this mean? Who am I supposed to impact? And as you're saying these things, you already fucking have the answer. You're just too afraid to let this other part go.

And then realize that me letting go of basketball allowed me to become a better bodybuilder because I was able to bring all the attributes that got me to be a Division One athlete into bodybuilding. Being a self-starter, being raised as an only child. No one had to tell me how to train, being coachable. I got to use it to my advantage. Now I have to do the same thing with life.

I'm going to add though, a lot of people wrestle with this. A lot of people, they're the vice president of a company and that's how they relate to everyone and that feels good. I get it. When they walk out on the street, it's not that everywhere they went, people knew they were a vice president. So when they quit being a vice president, it's not that everyone's going to visually be able to look at them.

So you've had this, I would say it's very compounded identity wise is that you're enormous, you have a very visual representation of your identity more than a lawyer has or a doctor. So I think it's very compounded for you. I can't imagine when I'm 62 and I have spaghetti arms. I am assuming for you it's gotta be a thousand X of what I even wrestle with. It's quite relative, but then again,

that's a lot of energy, dude. I gotta compare myself to seven times, like wasn't that the whole point, Phil? Well, we know that intellectually, but then there's an emotional side of us. Absolutely. That's still eight years old. What I'm really curious about is

how do you see your body going forward? What's the smallest you could be where you wouldn't be like, oh my God, I've evaporated? Probably when I'm dying, I guess. You know? That's how I look at it. I mean, I had a succession plan? That's how I look at it. I mean, I had a succession plan.

By the time you're 45, you're probably going to weigh this. When you're 50, you're going to weigh this. When you're 55, you're going to weigh this. And now it's more, you can weigh whatever you want as long as your blood work says this. Oh, that's great. Your physical says this. That's all that matters because those numbers don't lie. Like if your cholesterol is high, it don't matter if you're 190 or 290.

You need to see your calcium heart score. You need to do all that shit. But I will say me being at 280 pounds, it requires so much effort that I recognize that's not necessary to be an iconic figure in the sport of bodybuilding. More people see me happier. You're probably more fun to go out to dinner with now.

I was always fun to go out with. I think the problem was that recently I heard an interview with David Goggins and David Goggins was talking about how he has this stare and people think that he's just being a dick when really he ain't even thinking about you. You're not even in the room. He's thinking about everything else he's got to do. So I've been doing that for my whole adult life. So I think by being misunderstood, that's what people got.

It's like the late Kobe Bryant, he had that stare too. He could be sitting on the bench and he's already hyperfocusing on what he needs to do. And you have Chris Rock in the background. There's a video of Chris Rock just talking to Kobe during a game and Kobe's just like locked in. He doesn't even budge. He ain't on here. I understand that. I know what that silence is like in the midst of competition where the decibels are over 100 and you hear nothing but your own heart and what you need to fucking do to get the job done. That's so freaking powerful, but my obligation is to my greater purpose. My greater purpose is to be able to share the fact that you can transition away from

the sport of bodybuilding, looking at guys like Arnold as your muse and saying, if I could just come close to that, that would feel freaking great. I've been so fortunate to train next to Arnold. I never trained with him when I was competing, but to go to his show in Ohio, to go to his show recently in England, and his people hit me up and say, Arnold would like to train with you.

Fuck yeah. This is sick. This is so much fun. And to be acknowledged as also a seven time, I get to share that. I now get to build on a relationship like that. I don't need to go back to be somebody. I already am.

You didn't lose it. Right. It didn't go away. No, but the mindset, the passion. I've been around Arnold a lot as well. The one thing I really hope you can take from him is when you're around Arnold, he is not 260 anymore. He's an older man. He is still the barbarian to me.

You're so right. But you don't assume that for yourself. You don't give yourself that same grace, which is like, no, no, when I'm with Arnold, I'm like, that's Conan the Barbarian. He's in really good shape and he's having fun and he's doing his thing. He's not what he was, but he is always what he was to me,

because I love him. This one's gonna be the hardest, but I need you to know where I'm coming from beforehand. I am so pro bodybuilding. I love it. I'm not someone that's like, they do. Lay it on me. Okay, okay.

And this is about retirement or the new identity. So I'm on testosterone. I'm probably gonna take it the rest of my life. I love how I feel on it. I'm way more energetic. Probably better to be around. Yeah, I started six years ago. I was ready to retire. And then I started taking it. And'm way more energetic. Probably better to be around. Yeah. I started six years ago. I was ready to retire and then I started taking it and then we started the show.

And I just love how it makes me feel. Now that's gotta be in the mix. How are you deciding what you'll hang on to chemically? Oh, that's easy. I was fortunate to get with a company called Transcend out of Auburn Hills, Michigan. And their main focus was to help people stay optimal. And I never partnered with a company of any sorts when it comes to hormones ever in my

career because I never believed that they were doing things the right way. And with these guys... Well, it's a very tricky thing because I've had a lot of actors in here that are clearly on a lot of stuff and I don't bring it up because they're not trying to tell a kid they should do what they did. I understand the pressure and it's very hard to be honest about it. I'm one of the few people to tell you I'm on testosterone. Almost no actor will tell you that.

You want to know what my goal was when I turned pro back in the day was that one day we could have this conversation openly and not have it be so dark. Stigmatized. Yeah, you want to be optimal, right? So this is what you do. We're not saying that first and foremost, just because you take testosterone,

you're going to be Ronnie Coleman. You're going to be Phil Heath. Get the fuck out of here with that right away. That's the problem because you get guys that are not committed, not disciplined, don't have the genetics, don't have the work ethic, and would say, well, if I did that, I would be like him. My tiny nothingness.

I have dudes go like, yeah, if I was on testosterone, I'm like, seriously? I also eat very specifically. I also work out six days a week. These are guys that are like, they gotta stop. They think you can take this. They gotta stop. And look great.

And I'm like, give it a shot. These are guys that are like, they gotta stop. They think you can take this. They gotta stop. And look great. And I'm like, give it a shot. Literally give it a shot, right? So me working with Transcend helps address a lot of those things and bring better awareness. So now I'm on the other side of it. Well, cause you have different goals now. There was a protocol you had when you were Mr. Olympia that clearly as a retiree,

and is that hard to say goodbye to. It's not hard at all because once you say you're done, you also realize what's ahead and what's ahead is greater health because what's the thing that happens when you turn pro? Oh, he's on all this stuff and everybody thinks that they know what you're taking when in fact, I took way less

than you guys probably ever could imagine. There was certain compounds that I never even used. Just because you did it, doesn't mean that I did it. And it's all speculation. And there's guys that claim natty status and they clearly aren't. So you better off just saying, I did what I did. You don't know what I did, but the results mattered.

And my skin texture looks very nice and clean. You didn't see me all rash out. Acne all over your back. That and the fact that you don't see all bumps and lumps lumps in my physique the muscle fibers still have its own integrity if I flex my bicep right now You see lines in there that you ain't gonna see Other people and that's because I did things a certain way and I was able to use Peptides that help reduce inflammation. I had those two hernia surgery. So I needed something to get rid of that I needed something to help with my gut microbiome.

You got your second brain and your gut. So of course, me traveling around the world, I've eaten everything in sight, have had intestinal parasites, I've had all that. You need certain medications to help clear that out. Also, I had long COVID. I had COVID pneumonia. I was in the hospital for a week. So your cognitive delay is definitely apparent. I did remdesivir, I

did all that shit just to get out of there. I was in bad shape. So to know that I'm with a company now that I can have medications prescribed to me that I can take with me everywhere that are gonna help me stay optimal, help me have better mental clarity. I was not as clear as I am right now speaking with you with this type of verbiage three years ago. I had a torn MCL, I need to get back in the game, I have a company that can monitor these things and I have licensed wellness specialists along with my own specific doctor that I work with. So I do panels every three months and fortunately for me when I was competing I always did panels. I did full Kim panel. I was the one

that was spending more money than your bro at the gym just doing the bro science of like, oh yeah, I'm taking testosterone. I'm doing EQ. I'm doing trend. First and foremost, I did my first few competitions clean against guys that weren't. That's what taught me that I could beat a lot of people. I was regular saying beaten super sayings, man. Like I was already that dude. I now promote a company that says, look, before you decide to make this jump, let's at the very least look at your blood work and see if you're even deficient.

Because a lot of people are just doing it, especially kids. So we're talking about the kids. Well, it's not even optimal, right? They go way above anything that would be helpful. Right, so we're talking about the kids. You got kids on TikTok taking testosterone. Yeah, what? Taking tremolome.

In their 20s. They don't even need it. And they don't even know, and I've said this time and time again, and I feel like this is my calling, to tell these younger people. First of all, I got to tell the parents, you need to be more active in your kids' lives.

You need to follow who they follow and what they're watching. Just like how you would on the television, you need to know what they're liking on social media, because that'll give you a clear indication as to what the hell they're up to. So if they're liking certain people that produce social media content that have drugs involved, that are not prescribed, obviously, because you have to go to a doctor to go get these things, first of all, you're committing a crime. So you got to know that part and then the education part about it.

If some people says, well, it's just a little testosterone this 20 year old is taking. It's like, but why is he taking it? Now we have to address the different psychological issue. We have to understand why does that matter? Is it because of the fact that this influencer over here is making a million dollars because he looks a certain way. Do you like Lane Norton by chance? Do you follow Lane? Yeah, he's funny.

I love him. I've become a greater fan of Lane over the years because he makes it his mission to just debate and we need that. And he's science first. For me, I don't have obviously that background, but I do have my own body to say like, for me, this is what worked that background, but I do have my own body to say that for me this is what worked. As a 44 year old male, I'll be 45 at the end of the year.

I can use less and get more based on what's currently available through great company. Understanding there's more science as far as the timing of things. Just like there's nutrient timing with supplements, there's timing with certain medications. Once you can put all the pieces together You can really make something magical happen something very beautiful So my advice to a lot of people that want to get into the hormones and stuff is that first of all you got to Get your blood work done We already got to do that and most guys don't want to do that because they're gonna be told some things

They don't want to hear they're gonna be told that your a1c is high You know, you may be pre-diabetic you drink too much or you smoke too many cigarettes. So you can't just say, okay, I'm going to get on testosterone, I'm going to buy some stuff from some dealer at a gym, which is fucking illegal and is very reckless. You're just going to damage your body. Now for kids, you're fucking stupid.

And I'm saying this as your big brother. I want to put my arms around these kids, these young 18, 19, 20, 22 year old guys, PED, performance enhancing drug. They're not even competing in anything. So they're just doing it just to be doing it and they're doing it just for social media. So that's not what champions do.

What champions do, they figure out their diet, exhausting every other option. They are looking at delayed gratification. They're understanding recovery modalities. Here's one for you. How many influencers do you see online? Talk about the diet, the training. They can talk about BDs,

but what's their recovery protocol? Not just cold plunges. We're talking about like real recovery protocols. We're talking about the infrared sauna. We're talking about the Vatara 320, you know, the hyperbaric therapy. We're talking about DRX 9000 traction tables so that you don't have the compression that a Ronnie Coleman had. We're talking about DRX 9000 traction tables so that you don't have the compression

that Ronnie Coleman had. We're talking about MLS laser therapy that actually helps stimulate the collagen production around the body parts. So then you have more collagen production, therefore more vasodilation, you know, you can actually inhibit more healing. Shockwave therapy, it's kind of the same thing.

See, these are all the things that I was fucking doing. I'm treating this body. Like an F1 car. Thank you, you took it right out of my mouth. It's F1 all day because you got to know every little detail and you got to know why they work and how they work in certain sequence and that's why you're able to see someone like myself in Breaking Olympia win all those titles. I'm actually going to be training not for the Olympia but for the Olympia. It's the 60th Mr. Olympia this year. I've been commentating the Olympia for the last two years and I'm actually the same

weekend as the Olympia, which will be back in Las Vegas. I'm going to be inducted into the International Sports Hall of Fame. So I have this idea that with breaking Olympia releasing now, people are going to want to see what's going on. I got a lot of cool things ahead. I just think it'd be funny as hell if I'm commentating the show and I look kind of ripped, you know, imagine doing a pre-show and I just strip. I'm like, this is what they need. They need the pause. They need the cast.

I'm black and I got cast. You need this. You need the lines on the biceps. This is for the viewers. Now I'm kind of putting myself out there even saying this on podcasts, but those are those things I'm thinking, Phil, you don't have to do that, but it would be funny. And I wouldn't be the competition Phil that people have seen.

I want to show the transition because no disrespect to eight time Ronnie Coleman. People think that's what's going to happen to every person. I can be the example of that. Not being the case, J color perfect example. So I think it's important to teach other guys cause I now implore a lot of other IFBB pro bodybuilders to create a plan. Be honest with yourself and say, look man,

what's your career earnings looking like right now? If majority of guys, not the women, because the income is not why they do it. A lot of women that compete, they may not make as much on stage, but they can make more online because girls will buy leggings, like merch nonstop over guys. But with guys, I want them to just take a sheet of paper and write down their career

earnings and then ask themselves how much money would they like to make and what do they make with their sponsors? And then go through that hero's journey of saying, you're a bodybuilder, but you're also other things and list those other things. And those got to be your goals too. You got to fill that enormous void that's left behind. Yeah. Otherwise you're going to be like Mickey Rourke and the wrestler.

Like you're going to be that guy that just keeps coming back and those judges got to move someone up and move someone down. We need a new story. They can't keep you up there forever. So your life expectancy, just the stress alone of doing shows, man, you're giving up stuff you want to get to shows, man, you're giving up stuff. You want to get to a point where maybe you're in your early 40s like myself and realize I can still apply this crazy semi narcissistic attitude to something more productive that

can serve a greater purpose. And technically my nickname is the gift. Where am I giving? If I can give service, like even in this podcast, I'm happy. If I can be of service to some person at a children's hospital, I'm happy. If I can create a product or a service that's going to make you better, more confident, I'm happy. Also having this documentary.

Every time I watch it, I tear up. To be able to see your life told like that and it's worthy of that. And it has all my friends in it. Yeah. Even guys that I didn't like. I didn't like Kai Green. Oh, I love Kai. That's a sweet story. Did you like the rivalry?

Yeah, I had no idea it existed. I had seen Kai in other documentaries and I just liked his spirit. He seems like so sweet. Also, I didn't realize he even had that side. You guys are like pushing each other on stage. He was the one that called you, that shows his character.

It was really impressive. That was a moment I'll never forget. And I remember telling my wife, I say, you know, as wild as that, he was the only one. And I still feel this wife, I say, you know, as wild is that he was the only one. And I still feel this way. I would be the one knock on wood. God forbid something bad happened to him.

I'd be by his bed because it's honor, honor and respect go a long way with me. And he and I elevated the sport in a different way during the drop off with the magazines and the influx of social media. It was just incredible. No, it was getting like UFC fight style. The promotion, the shit talking. Could you imagine if we would have fabricated some of that? Leaned in.

Like if we would have leaned in real hard on that by the time I think that could have happened, he had moved away. Yeah. There was so much more meat on that bone. Yeah. No, it's crazy. You got the real sense. Like, are these dudes going to fight on stage or what are they going to flex?

What's happening here? What is this tournament about now? And if you walked in your house right now, I'd be like, get this fucker out of here. We would say that, but no furniture would be moved. But it's just great to know someone that wanted something so bad that you can relate to. That's the thing is your enemy happens to also be

the one of 10 dudes on planet earth that know exactly what your experience is. You're rivals, but it's bullshit. You guys have more in common than any two people standing anywhere on planet Earth. It's like what, Magneto and freaking Professor X. You can't really be friends, but you can sit down, maybe have a chat.

Well, Phil, this has been awesome. I love the documentary, Breaking Olympia. When does it come out? March 26th. On? Everywhere but Netflix. You gotta watch it. I'm pumping this up because I'm just so happy. No, it's great.

And my daughter loved it. There you go. I got the best endorsement because she came out and wanted to flex. Exactly. She was pumped, man. Like she hit the most muscular. I know, she loved it.

She's athletic. All right, well, Phil, what a pleasure talking to you. I wish you luck with everything and can't wait to watch this incredible transition that you're right in the middle of. Oh, thank you. Stay tuned to hear Miss Monica correct all the facts that were wrong.

That's okay though, we all make mistakes. All right, we're ready? We are ready. Okay, perfect. Is sleepy? I just got a little sleepy. Yeah, the sun is not out. It's supposed to come out.

Do you know the sun never once came out in seven days in Austin? Really? No, never. It was the most overcast I've ever seen any place for seven days straight. Resulting though in one good lightning storm on Saturday night.

That's really fun. Yeah. It just, it says it's sunny. Yeah. And that's a lie. That's a lie. Let me see if mine says fun. Yeah. It just, it says it's sunny. Yeah. And that's a lie. That's a lie. Hmm. Let me see if mine says sunny. Okay.

Yeah. Mine says literally the word sunny. First thing that pops up bright sun. And that's not what we got outside. So much brightness of sun. And it's a lie. It also says, it says it's unhealthy for sensitive groups right now. And that's me.

That's weird because it's been cool and overcast. Doesn't it feel like good air? I wonder if that's including all the pollen in the air. Good thing I'm wearing sunscreen. So do you wear sunscreen every day? No, I don't. If I'm going to be very, very exposed, I'll do my face and just my right arm with all my tattoos.

That's if you're like out in the sun. Yeah, and more than just like if I hike, no. Yeah. No, I know. I know, oh, people are gonna blast me for this. Oh. Are we ready? I'm ready.

Okay, let's start with the fact that there was just no such thing as sunblock until 60 years ago. Okay. So's start with the fact that there was just no such thing as sunblock until 60 years ago. Okay. So somehow humans were living just fine. And then you might go, well, they were getting skin cancer a lot.

Probably. They didn't know it was skin cancer. They just died. Well, that's true. I just, sometimes I have a hard time accepting that, like we have to have this thing that we've never ever had. Does that make any sense? Before you had blast me, I'm gonna blast you on that to have this thing that we've never ever had. Does that make any sense? Before you had blast me.

You just go like. I'm gonna blast you on that. Okay, but hold on. People didn't even have hats. They didn't have hats, they didn't have sunglasses. They lived out. Yeah, but people died. They lived outside.

All I'm saying is you have to recognize we were designed to be outside in the sun all day long without sunblock. Yeah, for 30 years. No. Yeah. People died are much younger. We have talked about this. That's a very misleading thing that gets bandied about.

People live till their seventies all the time. The infant mortality rate was so bad that it cuts the overall length of age in half. So if you were to get rid of the people that died before 10 years old, then looked at how long people lived at any point in human history, they're living to 60 and 70 still.

It's very misleading. Well, whatever, I'm just not. You know, we just sometimes we go like, well, we have to have this thing. And it's like, well, it's okay to rewind like 100 years. No, we actually didn't have this thing and we never have had this thing. And so the notion that we have to have it,

now, is it beneficial? Sure. Does it reduce skin cancer? I bet. But also are almost all of us low in vitamin D? Yes, everyone I know that gets a blood panel finds out they're low in vitamin D. So that seems to be kind of pandemic levels

of low vitamin D. So I go like, you're tossing up you, what would you want to be low in vitamin D your whole life or mitigate the chance of getting skin cancer? I don't know that there's been long enough term. Look at all this to see which one's worse. All that to say, I don't let myself get burnt. I never get burnt ever. So however I'm doing it, I'm planning it pretty well.

Like if I know I'm going to be outside for five hours, I'll put burnt, ever. So however I'm doing it, I'm planning it pretty well. Like if I know I'm gonna be outside for five hours, I'll put sunblock on. But if I take a hike and I'm out for 90 minutes, I don't get burnt in that time. All right, let it rip. I'll sure hear about it in the comments. I mean, it helps with skin cancer, but also just your skin.

Yeah, I think I would have less wrinkles and would age more gracefully if I never let my face get tan. I acknowledge that. Yeah, it's a huge part of skincare. People are super into skincare, like the sun's the devil. Exactly, yeah, it is. Yeah, people are like, oh my God,

I gotta get out of the sun. Which again, I just gotta remind everyone, we lived outside. Yeah, but people didn't look young. I agree. We didn't have like, our society is pretty obsessed with staying youthful and looking youthful. Agreed. We didn't have like, we, our society is pretty obsessed with staying youthful and looking youthful. Agreed, agreed.

Whether that's right or wrong, that is what a lot of us want. Yeah, I'll just observe some people that they're like, they're outdoors and they're getting sun on their face and you would think they were like an albino mole that lives underground. Yeah. You know, you are designed to live outside.

Just throwing that out there as a reminder. All right. I, I brought this up because I myself am not very good about sunscreen. Well, no, I feel like if I had your skin color, I would wear scunt sunscreen because I would like to be a little tan. I look way better a little tan.

So if I'm going to be a little tan. I look way better a little tan. So if I'm gonna live in 50 sun block, my face is gonna be ghostly white with yellow spots all over it and brown freckles and mess. But if I had your base skin color, then maybe I wouldn't care as much. Well, I struggle, you know, it's like you wanna find a sunscreen

that's not gonna break you out or that's for me the issue. So I skip it a lot because I'm scared it's gonna mess my skin up. But I found one I'm currently using that I like. It has a tint. You can also use tinted sunscreen so you get a little tint. Well, I use tinted Vicki Becky. Yeah, moisturizer.

There might be SPF in that, there might be. Oh, well then I wear it. Okay, great. Let's assume so. Yeah, so I found a new one and I'm giving it a whirl. I'm being better about it. Now wait, look, I know someone's gonna be listening who's lost a loved one to skin cancer and they're gonna be so upset that I'm saying this out loud.

Yeah, probably. No, am I gonna dig myself deeper by pointing this out? Who do you wanna be in this world loud. Yeah, probably. No, am I gonna dig myself deeper by pointing this out? Who do you wanna be in this world? Myself. Okay. That's my dedication. Great.

So, myself speaking, yeah, if you lost a loved one to skin cancer, of course you would be very upset to hear someone be lexical about it. Yeah. Or not take it seriously. Yeah. But I just have to push back and go, but also more people died in car accidents.

So we really do, we pick. But it's not about more people die versus, it's not zero sum. You can take care of your skin and wear sunscreen has nothing to do with car accidents. I'm pointing out the paradox that people who have lost someone they love to skin cancer, they feel like they should be telling people to always wear skin block.

I acknowledge it, I'd be the same, I'm sure. But if you lose someone in a car accident, you don't tell everyone you know, don't drive a car. You probably say you should wear a seatbelt. If you lost someone you love in a car accident, my guess is that you have strong feelings about seat belts and like probably strong feelings about it. But I mean, you can die with a seat belt on.

I mean, you can just die in a car accident. You can, but it's a lot safer. It's a lot less likely if you're while wearing a seat belt. Same with the sunscreen. Okay, so then let's, you don't like that example. Let's, for me, people that die in car accidents die with seat belts on. That a lot don't, a lot don't.

A lot do, the preventative nature of a seat belt. I'm just saying you can wear a seat belt and still die in a car accident. It doesn't inoculate you from death. But you can wear sunscreen and get skin cancer. The whole point is helping your chances. Right, and then I'm just saying we go through the list and it's like, well, we'd also be at heart disease way before we would be at skin cancer for total deaths.

And so I don't like, because my father died of heart disease and cancer, take your pick, they're both happening at the same time. I don't like tap anyone on the shoulder who's eating too much fat and go like, hey, you know, my dad died of heart disease. You're gonna get heart disease. Well, if that person is saying out loud,

it doesn't matter, you might say that. You're painting a very specific circumstance where you are declaring something out loud. So you are inviting that. Here's exactly what I'm saying. If you look at the five biggest killers in life, we don't ever feel entitled to tell those people not to do the things that look at the five biggest killers in life, we don't ever feel entitled to tell those people not to do the things that lead

to those five biggest killers. People aren't randomly policing each other online about what they're eating or that they're driving in a car or that they're doing any number of the many high probability sources of death. Well, I disagree. I think people are very vocal about, very vocal about what people should be eating,

what people shouldn't be eating, and also don't text and drive, and don't like, it's, there's a lot of that out there, I see. But also, I agree, I don't think it's a great thing to just be constantly like, hey, watch out for this, this happened to me. Hey, watch out for this, this happened to me.

But if someone is actively saying something to me that I know someone in my life died out for this, this happened to me. But if someone is actively saying something to me that I know someone in my life died because of this, I would feel compelled to do that. I wouldn't just be putting it out there for no reason. This specific case, you're speaking on sunscreen. Yeah, I guess I'm probably not, I'm not conveying the point I'm making very well clearly. I guess maybe if I were already actively making tons of decisions to prevent the most likely

ways of dying, it would make sense that I would then get down to the 11th and 12th and the 15th and the 16th most likely. We're just looking at odds and I'm a logical human being who's trying to prevent my untimely death. The smartest way to go about that would go, what kills people the most? Okay, so I've got a game plan for that. What kills people the second most? I got a game plan for that, right? I think a lot of people have pretty thorough game plans for number 28.

It's being positioned as you only have time for like four. So you're prioritizing, but you don't have to prioritize. Cause it is. Well, if you were logical, if you were just hardcore logic, you would start with the most likely thing to kill you. But you can do it all. You can do all of it. Well, can you?

Yeah. So what is like taking 14 seconds to put sunscreen on in the morning gonna do, like it's not, it has nothing to do with the other things. You can then do the other things. True, true. For the things that you think that are much higher on the list.

I concede to that. I guess my point is someone could get, I can see someone getting very wound up about me not using sunblock and not me driving a car. Sure. Which I do think there's some interesting, I don't wanna say hypocrisy there, but there is some interesting thing that's happening.

I think if people are gonna get on your case specifically, you for not wearing sunblock, like, you know, maybe relax, cause it's not your body, who cares? But I feel that if you're saying sunblock doesn't matter, then that is going to cause someone to say something. No, no, I'm I'm not advising anyone to not wear sunblock. Yeah. Everyone wears sunblock and don't drive in a car and don't eat saturated fat and don't do like, I can list the million things

we shouldn't do if we wanna increase our odds of making it to a hundred, I guess. It's just risk reward. Driving in a car, the risk is worth it to most people. There's no risk to wearing sunscreen. There's nothing wrong with it. Well, for me, unless you're chronically low vitamin D and you're on all these vitamin D supplements

that seem to barely move the needle, and I think, well, what if we got it the traditional way, which is the sun? I don't know. Well, anyway, I found a new one that's pretty good. A sunblock you like. That I'm liking, face. I like Goop the most.

Super Goop. Super Goop. Yep, Super Goop is great. I love Goop the most. Super Goop. Super Goop. Yep, Super Goop is great. I love that, it feels very nice going on. When I wear it, I like wearing it actually, it feels good. I have the clear one though. Some people I see put on sunscreen with a brush and I wanna start trying that.

They paint it on. We do that with the boys. Yeah, it's a thing for kids to make it more. I want to work my hands too. But they like it because it feels really nice. So it's like more palatable because kids don't like wearing sunscreen. You don't want to hear your mom or dad's hands on your face,

but a nice paint brush. Beautiful brush. Well, more makeup brush. You could do a paint brush. Because that's more fluffy and nice on the skin. But I think I wanna start trying that cause I think I'll like it. So what else, oh, do you wanna tell,

do you wanna reveal your date? Oh sure, I doubt he would mind. But yeah, my date was with Matthew McConaughey, which was, it was a first for me to ask someone out on a date I don't know. So just to recap, we've interviewed them twice. That went very well, but that's just an interview. And over Zoom, I think both times, right?

And then only the one time that I was around him at this camping trip for like whatever, we talked for an hour. But I was in Austin and I been wanting really bad to go see Andrew Schultz do standup. And so, and also I follow Andrew on Instagram and I was just seeing all of these incredible venues he's selling out.

And I was just so happy for him. He like sold out the forum, which is fucking incredible for a standup. So impressive. So I had randomly just sent him an Instagram message like blown away by how well you're doing. And he's like, you gotta come to his show. So then I decided to just sent him an Instagram message, like blown away by how well you're doing. And he's like, you gotta come to his show. So then I decided to just look on his website

and then lo and behold, he happened to be playing Friday night in Austin, impossible. So I go, oh my God, I'm gonna be in Austin. I wanna come see you in Austin. He's like, great, how many tickets do you need? And I'm like, bro, I think it's just gonna be me. I'm fine with, I'm 49. Also, there is a tinge of like, am I a dork?

Like I'm telling this guy Andrew who I don't really know, naturally I would want to think I'm cool. Like no, I'm gonna be rolling solo to this comedy show. Yeah, me and you talked about this. I think this is so interesting that you have a hangup about going somewhere by yourself. Well, what's interesting is I love going places by myself. So I love going out to eat by myself. I love going to the movies by yourself. Well, what's interesting is I love going places by myself. So I love going out to eat by myself.

I love going to the movies by myself. Something about letting this dude know that I didn't know a single person in Austin, that I would be coming by myself, felt pathetic. I just really don't think it is at all. Okay, great. I'd like to think it wasn't and he didn't think that. But I felt silly going, I think I'm coming by myself.

But then I said, actually, if you can give me a plus one, I'll take it and Kate, cause I do have some friends in Austin. So I go, maybe I'll figure it out. And then I don't know why it just crossed my mind. I'm like, well, McConaughey lives in Austin. I've always wanted to hang out with him just in real life. I'm gonna like, and I don't have his info.

So I like ask Emma, she'll ask the publicist if he wants my email so I can invite him to this thing. So it goes through them, comes back. Here's his email. I email him, Hey, I'm going to go see this comedian, Andrew Schultz. He writes back, perfect. Well, let me do it. He's like, perfect. I'm going to be landing in Austin Friday with the fam, let's do it. Green light, even gave me a green light. So anyways, he says he's in. And then what was really funny is as then the day approaches,

it was I had two tickets for us, and then it was like, hey, do you have seats? Like of course I have seats, I invited you. Can you imagine if I didn't even have seats? But then I was like, do you wanna sit in the suite? I forget why he said we could sit in the suite. And I wrote like, hey, whatever you would wanna do, I'm down.

And then he's like, great, I'll pick you up. So then it flipped to he was taking me on a date, which of course, cause he's so alpha, he's like, listen, I'm gonna hang with you, but I'm taking you on a date. So I'll pick you up at your hotel, we'll sit in a suite, we he's so alpha. He's like, listen, I'm gonna hang with you, but I'm taking you on a date, so I'll pick you up at your hotel. We'll sit in a suite and we'll do this right. Yeah.

So on the way to the, well, I just gotta say, it's textbook McConaughey. I come out of the hotel. He's like, I'm down here, White Lincoln Navigator. Of course. Of course. Of course. On brand. Mr. Dax, Mr. Dax. He's out of the Navigator just hanging. He's talking to valet dudes.

He's talking to, he's such a mayor of wherever he's at. And I'm like, oh, this is great. On the way to the comedy show, he tells me that he basically built this arena we're going to. Right. He put together UT with some investors. He worked with the architect.

He knows this thing, but he hasn't been. Oh, first time. He's like, he's like, he's really excited to go to this building. He basically built, but he's never been to. So of course we arrive and it's like the whole staff knows he's like, he's the founder of this thing. And so, yeah, we go to this really fun suite that's got like a bar and food and it's awesome.

Show goes on, it's great. Andrew is so fucking funny. Oh my God, is he good. Everyone should go see Andrew Schultz. He's so fucking funny. And I bawled. There was a moment, so he shows a video of his little baby he just had.

And they went through IVF and the whole thing. So it's the whole journey. And it's this really beautiful video. And now I'm full crying. And I'm on my first date with McConaughey. And I'm just not sure how that's gonna go down. Like, oh yeah, I'm crying. And by the way, I think I was making an effort not to.

Couldn't help it, was just crying. I think he caught a peep of that. I think he noticed I was a little bit of a. But he was respectful, he didn't say anything. He didn't stand up and point at me. Oh, there's a little fucking wimp. He were. Crying, because he likes babies.

Anyways, he loved Schultz. He and I had a real good chuckle at the same line, which is always so fun when you realize you both deal with the same thing. At any rate, then we went backstage, hung with Andrew, a couple of the other comedians that were also great. And then, so it was a good date, but we didn't get any like a ton of one-on-one time.

And then when we're leaving, he goes, "'Should we grab a steak?' And I'm like, fuck yes, let's grab a steak. It's 10- That's just like music, music. And it's exactly what I wanted to do with him. So it's 10.25. He asked his driver, Domingo,

it's clearly his driver for a long time. They're brothers. Oh, he wasn't driving? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He had a driver. He's like, where can we get a steak? What does that open? And he's like, oh, I think we could make it to Lambert's.

Go to Lambert's, it's closing. We walk in, he is Mickey Mouse in Austin. If you like, he's like being with Mickey Mouse in Disneyland in Austin. He's the God of Austin. Staff is immediately blown away, McConaughey's there. That's huge, yeah. They are very.

So he'd never been there before, it wasn't like his spot. It wasn't his spot. I don't know if he had ever been there before, it wasn't like his spot. It wasn't his spot, I don't know if he had ever been there or not, but it went from, God, I hope they let us in because they're closing till everyone was very excited he was there, so great, the vibe we want. He orders for us again. I'm on a, yeah, I'm totally on a date.

But that, okay, you're on like a date from the 50s. Yes. It's like, if someone ordered for me, I'd be like, no, I'm not gonna order. And let me tell you, it felt great. Okay. Because when we're walking, he's like, we're gonna get some steak, you like rib eye?

And I'm like, oh, I fucking rib eye is my steak. He's like, you like skirt steak? I'm like, yeah. He's like, what's up? You're just like, yeah, I like anything you like. But it was all the stuff I like. He's like, you want a salad? So he orders us a wedge to split.

Okay. And a big side of coleslaw, which is my favorite. So some of your spit got in his spit. No, no, cause it was split before it arrived. But he also ordered a ton of coleslaw, which is my favorite thing to pair with meat. You've seen me do this a million times. Yes, you like it.

So at any rate, these steaks were so fucking good. The wedge was so good. And then we really had a 10 out of 10 date. That's great. We were screaming, laughing. I was calling him out for fun things that I thought we had in common. And it was really, it was an enchanted night.

And he dropped you off. Of course he dropped me off. We didn't kiss, but I would have. Yeah. Yeah, I think we wrapped things up around like midnight or something. Nice. Yeah, it was really fun.

That's really fun. I hope to God we get to do it again. I'm sure you will. Did he text you the next day and say like, hey, that was fun. I text him. I was thirsty. Yeah, that's a little thirsty.

What'd you say? That's where I am confident. I know the right thing to do is to wait for him to text me. I'm just joking, but on a date? But no, I know there's rules. Yeah, there's rules. But that's where I am confident. I go, oh yeah, I know the rules,

but I know this person likes me. I'm gonna reach out. That's because men. I also think like, yes, as a man you're trying to navigate, like there's all these weird, I'm just being honest about what the fear, both of us growing up in the 70s, I think there's all these things

that like you were afraid would make you gay. Here's where I am very comfortable. Like I will be the first man to act in a way that's potentially scares other men. Okay, yeah. Right, I'll tell them I love them, I'll tell them about my fears and my feelings. You like their body. Yeah, I'll tell them how love them. I'll tell them about my fears and my feelings. Yeah. I'll tell them how good looking they are.

Like, so I, I'm aware of those things and I push past all those things. Yeah. So again, I'm like, yeah, I'm just going to tell him. I'm like, what a fucking great night that steak was a party had so much fun. Hope we get to do it again. Yeah. And he wrote back like comedy, great, blah, blah, blah. Great steak.

A hundred percent perfect night. Right. Green lights. Green lights. Yeah. That's going to be a good one. Yeah, and he wrote back like, comedy great, blah, blah, blah, great, steak 100%, perfect night, right? Green lights. Green lights. Yeah. Let's go again. All green lights.

Okay, this is just funny because again, male friendship versus female friendship is so fascinating because we have none of this. Right, I know. There is absolutely no. Fear of being too overly intimate. Yeah. I hate it.

I'm telling you, I hate it. I know, I know, but I just think it's funny because you keep referring to this as a date, which is funny and it's, I know you're saying that to be funny. Anytime I'm hanging out with a girlfriend or even meeting a new girlfriend, like Kate, like hanging out with Kate,

I would never refer to it as a date or even make the, it wouldn't even be a funny joke. Cause like girls just hang out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All the time. Yeah, yeah. So it's just interesting. It is, it is.

We're trapped. But it's good. You're making moves. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's fun. It was really fun. I'm glad you had that experience.

But I will say, it was a very interesting trip in total. That's here. You were in Austin for a full week. Yeah, I was in Austin for a full week, which was scheduled to be Kristin flying in and then her schedule changed and then she had to cancel. So it was this very, very rare occurrence where I had basically a week to myself.

I had like whatever, the race to go to, I had a track day to go to, I had a podcast to record, and then I wanted to do this comedy show. But other than that, it was just me hanging, going to Barton Springs. And I don't think I'm fully synthesized what my conclusions about all of it were, but there were a lot of really interesting realities

that simmered up. Here's what I kept getting confronted with is like, I look forward to being by myself so much, right? I don't have to deal with anybody's anything. I don't have to worry about anybody, whatever. My schedule, I get to do whatever I'm in the mood to do. That sounds appealing. I get to eat and blah, blah, blah.

All of it sounds so fun and in my mind it's so fun. But then when I was doing it, I was like, eh, this isn't that fun. It's not very fun. It wasn't very fun. Your trip. Much of it. The motorcycle stuff was, the date with McConaughey was, in the podcast, but then the other five days, not fun.

Not unfun. Yeah. But I just was like, hmm. All these fantasies I have like, oh, I like not working. I don't like not working. Yeah. I need a break from my family. No, I don't really want a break from my family.

It made me think how much I, well first just how much I enjoy my girls so much. Like, oh my God, so much. Yeah, to the point where I was like, yeah, I don't think I ever wanna break ever again. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Yeah. It was just very illuminating about how much actual joy and fulfillment I get from that. Almost I needed the absence of it to really kind of see how much I really need those little shits. Yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense. But you don't feel that as much when you're like,

when you were on your trip with Aaron skiing, or did you feel that like in India? No, you're right. If I'm like sharing it with another friend, then yeah, that's definitely, it's definitely different. Yeah, being by yourself is a very specific feeling. Yeah, and it's funny, because I have this like kind of romantic memory

of having lived by myself for different periods of my life. And I did in those times get into fun routines I had. And I remember being very joyous just living in the old house by myself. And like, I found a way to love that. And so I think I have kind of some, you know, exaggerated nostalgia for that, that I don't think I really have anymore.

Yeah, that's great. And then I was just really also mulling over the future and work and identity. It was a lot of time for me to just be hanging and thinking. I think in summation, like a lot of the trip I felt scared. I felt like, I guess it was, it was Jonah Nolan that was on that was talking about how fragile our sense of self is. I was really feeling that fragility. I was like all these things that I kind of comfort myself with, which is like I do this for a job,

I make this amount of money, I'm here on these days, I'm blah blah blah. In the absence of all that, I'm like, I wonder if I'm a guy who just goes to Barton Springs. Could I even live with that version of myself? And when are we gonna figure out how to be fine if that's all I am?

Yeah. Well, everyone's gonna have to start doing this because eventually, I mean, AI is gonna make all of us think about this. There won't be jobs. There will be, what is your life without these like identity markers? You're just a person.

I know. I wish I felt better about being just the person I am. And I guess it made me aspire to. I kind of like, yeah, there were a couple of things I thought I would get more committed to now that I'm home. I think more of the Buddhism exploration. Yeah.

Something, there was something pivotal. That's great. I also guess I'm also 49, halfway to 50, and always these kind of decade markers end up being. Yeah, reflective. Yeah, and like where you wanna go and what you wanna do. That's good. But your trip was super social.

So you probably didn't go through any of that crazy. I do so many trips by myself so much. But yours sounded just like a big party. This one was much more social than they normally are, but it wasn't better to me because it was, I don't know. I guess you just adapt to your surroundings and your circumstances. There are moments of longing and loneliness, but there are also lots of moments.

I'm glad I'm by myself. I'm glad I'm making my own decisions. I'm glad I'm whatever. So it just goes both ways, I guess. Like whatever you're in, you want pieces of the other thing. But I guess that's sort of what you're saying, is you're realizing you don't need those pieces. Yeah, I think my overall observation

at the end of the week was, none of my fantasies are as good as my real life. I mean, that's literally the dream. Yeah, and I need to learn how to focus on that. That's what I realized. Like I need to, yeah, I just need to be present in this current life I have on any given moment because it's fantastic.

And there's really nothing better. And there's no elation awaiting for me anywhere. And everything's groovy. And like, I don't know, maybe it's time to dial back the romantic meter a bit. The like wanderlusty romantic meter of like every adventure I need to be on. And so, but I don't know, I'll have another trip,

it'll be different, and then I'll feel differently after that one. But that's a good takeaway, I think, or an interesting one. Yeah. I think that's good. You'll have to keep us updated on your evolving thoughts on it. Okay. Okay, this is for Phil Heath. There's not very many facts. Sean Connery, what did he win? Yeah. He competed in Mr. Universe.

Mr. Universe. Yeah. But he didn't win. He got third. Universe. Yeah. But he didn't win. He got third. Okay. In the junior division in 1953. Okay, third in the junior division. So I may be a heightened that a little bit. I think I claimed he won.

Oh, well. Hmm. And then Van Dam, yeah, Mr. Belgium. He also competed, but then he was called that. Oh, Mr. Belgium. He also competed, but then he was called that. Oh, Mr. Belgium. Again, it sounds so much like Mr. Belvedere. It does. Mr. Belgium doesn't sound that sexy, does it?

No disrespect. But for some reason, even like Mr. Spain sounds pretty good, but Mr. Belgium. Oh, really? Yeah, which do you think sounds coolest, and which is worse? I kinda like Belgium for a sounding country. Okay, Mr? Yeah. Which do you think sounds coolest and what's just worse? I kinda like Belgium for a sounding country. Okay, Mr. Belgium.

It sounds like. Classy? It sounds a little classy, yeah. Oh, by the way, have we talked about the jinx there's a part two? We haven't talked about it, but I saw that. Did you start it? It's on already.

The first episode came out yesterday. I haven't started it, but I'm so excited. I'm scared. I hope it captures some of the same magic as the first one. I get, there's a little bit of me. I mean, I think it's gonna be great. I'm so, so excited, but I'm also like, it was so perfect.

You're scared to go back. And do you need like, again, some of what you're talking about a little bit, can't that just be perfect? Right, revisit. Yeah, but I guess I know why, because of the trial and we want to know more. So it'll be, yeah, I'm gonna start it, I forgot.

But it would be easy to think that the first jinx was really made by the fact that he was saying, he was still on mic saying all the burping. It was so tremendous before that point. Of course, it's a very well done doc. Yeah, cause the next one can't have that great moment that we all loved, but it was really stellar until then anyways.

Yeah, he's great. I mean, Andrew Jarecki is amazing and makes great stuff. So it's gonna be good. Yeah, I might rewatch the first one. So good. We talked about watching Tyson fight and it was weird ding ding ding because when I was in, I went to,

I also saw my parents on this trip and my brother and my brother's friend was there for a lunch and him and my dad got in this really long conversation about boxing, which was funny. And your dad likes boxing? Yes, I mean, I don't know if he likes it. He just like knows all the stuff. Do you feel like Rob Allboys are supposed to know

just a little bit about boxing? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I think we're supposed to know, I know kind of a lot about boxing, but makes sense because I'm- Transitioning into UFC a little bit now. Yeah, I think now it's all about UFC, which I'm largely in the dark about.

Well, there was a big fight, a big boxing match on Saturday. With Tyson and. No, not with Tyson. Uh-oh. But there was a big one. Oh, okay, because Tyson's gonna fight. I know Paul. Jake Paul. Jake Paul. Yeah. But it's an exhibition, so it's not a real fight. Yeah, I'm just like, what's going on?

I wish it were a real fight, it'd be really fun. I thought it was. It's not, it's an exhibition. Well, I wanna have him on. Me too. Maybe he'll come on before the fight or after. Or during, I'm sure he could do it during. He'd be fine to handle Jake Paul.

We talk a little bit about how young people aren't getting married, you know, as we already know this, but it's just true. It's declining like crazy. You think that's good or bad? I mean, I think for population it's bad. Yeah. But I don't know.

I mean, we've already theorized on this many times, but who was I just talking to? Oh, Ange, while we were at Barton Springs. I've already theorized on this many times. But who was I just talking to? Oh, Ange, while we were at Barton Springs. Yeah, just the future leading towards more and more people live by themselves a solitary life. I just, something fundamentally about us being such social animals feels like,

maybe that's not the direction. I don't feel that I live a solitary life. Right. I have a very social life, but it's not. Cohabitative. Whether there's a, yeah, partner there or not. I don't think you have to, I mean, there's a missing out on a level of intimacy.

So that's sad, I guess, but it's not like bad for the world. I don't even mean, you know what's funny is I'm not even thinking about actually, if I'm being honest, about the solitariness of it. I just think it's, people are probably at their best if they're forced to compromise a lot. You are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

True. I mean, and in some ways everyone is, but I think there are a lot of places in life to have that work and there's a bunch. And I think some people a lot of places in life to have that, work, and there's a bunch. And I think some people need to be pushed there a little more than others. I need a lot of that, I guess. But also, yeah, yeah, it is important.

It's an important skill, but it's an important skill, I think, for being connected and being social. So it's all sort of tying back into the same thing. I'm very locked in my own experience, which is like when I get everything I want, I'm not happy. For sure. And when I am regularly inconvenienced by other people,

I'm a lot happier. So that's the perspective I'm trapped in. Yeah, I think that's fair. And I just wonder how common that is. I mean, we know from a million people on the show how important social connection is in life. And if you are someone who's just unwilling to compromise in general, you probably won't have any.

Yeah. At all. Right. Whether they're a romantic partner or a friend. French, yeah. So yeah, it is important. That's it. That's it?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, bodybuilding. Bodybuilding. You know, when we were recording this halfway through, I thought, what is bodybuilding? Sure. And I don't know that I know. Well, it's just putting as much muscle mass

on a human as you can. Right, but then the competitions are just like looking at their bodies, right? Yes, and if you were to watch this doc, again, because I watch it with Lincoln and then maybe halfway through, I think Kristin joined. And so Lincoln didn't wanna watch it, bodybuilding, but of course it's a very well-made doc

and you get into the competition, but you would be able to pick who the winner was. That's probably what you're having a hard time imagining, right? Like, how can you tell what's, they're just all enormous. But you can see that like, oh, they're enormous, but it is like the muscle chart in the doctor's office. Like I can see every single muscle.

And then this other person, yeah, they're bigger, but I can't really see all the stuff. Or, oh, their shoulders look way wider than their butt and their legs. Like, you do start seeing like this proportional thing that that becomes kind of obvious and then like how cut and defined they are becomes really obvious.

And weirdly, I would say all the ones that he won, he was the clear winner. Yeah, that's so crazy. It is. But also, I guess I thought maybe bodybuilding had something to do with like during the competition, you lifted stuff. Oh.

But it's not, it's just a full physical appearance. All aesthetic. Yeah. 100% aesthetic. It's pretty fascinating. Not that anyone will care, but if there's any boys in the audience that are like, they're like me, like you watch them on TV,

they look crazy, but they also are next to each other. So they look like there's, I don't know a lot of them. I was saying that what's crazy is in the dock, the rock looks like normal size, which is really interesting. But for my friends who lift weights and are into this stuff, when they've said like, what was it like being around Phil?

It's the tricep. This is what you just do not see on a real human being. I don't know if you noticed it, but when he was like talking, this chunk of muscle under his arm was the size of my thigh. You just don't even see someone's tricep. Like that was one of there is like,

okay, well that is something that is like 18 standard deviations above a normal. That's where it got obvious. Like what's the difference between them and just a very built big guy you might see at a beach. And it's that, it's like, you don't ever see someone with a tricep that big, size of a thigh. Yeah, that's interesting.

Well, no, you don't. No, you really don't. You normally don't. Of all the sports, man, it's all day. It's a full dedication, yeah. Yeah, I mean, just, I don't, no other sport has the eating component in the way that this one does.

Yeah, probably not. Or it's like you have, like they said, they're eating seven hours a day. Ugh. And it has to be such an enormous amount of protein. Like, no one can stomach it. It's just impossible. Yikes.

So they're doing the activity three hours a day, but then they're also eating seven hours a day. I just don't know what other endeavor is that all consuming. It's wild. It's pretty wild. You want a knee jerk say it's insane, right? I mean, I have my own opinions on it,

but I don't really care. Because when you watch an Olympic skier, you're like, well, I guess that has the purpose of going down this hill very quickly, or because there's some ostensible purpose to it, doing a 1480 out of a half pipe 25, but all of it's completely abstract and useless. Like no one needs to do three flips

off the top of a half pipe lip. Yep. But for some reason those pursuits seem completely normal, right? Or more normal. They feel, Like I think these people still deal with the fact that the average person thinks they're freaks.

Sure, yeah. When it is identical to all these other things, it's just like the outcomes difference. You're kind of trying to value outcome, but all the outcomes are pretty useless in real life. I guess so, yeah. One feels- Crazier.

Not crazy, it feels... Oh, I have a hunch of what could be triggering for you. It seems to epitomize masculinity and just masculinity in general is kind of a scary. No, I actually find it not masculine at all. Like the obsession with food and body and looking like the very specific, it actually to me, I don't feel that.

But I think devoting so much to just having people look at you, I guess, because that's what I was like, I thought it like you were doing something, feels a little shallow, I guess. Well, the competition is like endless flexing in all these poses. Like, you competition is like endless flexing in all these poses. Like, you know, it is hours of demonstration.

Like you would be a ballet dancer. Like here's the routine. Watch it with your eyes. Hope you enjoy. Yeah, it's all made up. All those values made up, yeah. But it was, it's interesting. It's definitely a world I don't know a lot about

or know anything about. Obviously I didn't even know what it was. Really. Yeah, yeah, I think it's still fringe. And I think without Schwarzenegger, it would even be back still in the 40s where people really were like, oh, they're freaks. Yeah, probably.

He helped, I think, normalize it. It is very interesting. Of all the things that the aliens are watching the monkeys do, they're like, wow, these monkeys are trying to get three times the size that the aliens are watching the monkeys do, they're like, wow, these monkeys are trying to get three times the size of the other monkeys. But then to just go stand on a platform. For the other monkeys to look at and go like, oh my God.

Right, pretty nuts. Alrighty. All right. Love you. Love you.