Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Prachi Gupta (on the model minority myth)

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

Prachi Gupta (They Called Us Exceptional) is a journalist and author. Prachi joins the Armchair Expert to discuss why she was grounded for reading fiction, how she views the institution of arranged marriages, and what the American Dream meant to her parents. Prachi and Dax talk about why she wanted to tell her brother’s story, how she feels about happiness being correlated to success, and why being emasculated can affect how men treat one another. Prachi explains why dating apps have changed how people find partners, why there is a stigma around family estrangement, and what her experience was finding effective therapy.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Doug Fairbanks and I'm joined by... Who am I today? What was the famous May actress? Fannie Mae. Fannie Mae. I'm joined by Fannie Mae. Fannie Mae and Fannie Mac. Yes. Mae West. Housing. Mae West.

No, I'm Fannie Mae. Oh, okay. Fanny Mae's here. We have a great guest today. Really good. Tells us a very heartbreaking story that I really felt grateful to be hearing. Yeah. Yeah. Her name is Prachi Gupta, and she is an award-winning journalist. She has a new book out right now called They Called Us Exceptional and Other Lies That Raised Us.

So an immigrant story. Indian family. Yeah. called They Called Us Exceptional and Other Lies That Raised Us. So an immigrant story. Indian family. Yeah, but it speaks largely to token immigrants, basically. The model minority. Model minority, thank you. The myth of the model minority. Yeah, and it's an important story. Although in your case, it's not a myth, I got to say.

Unfortunately, you really perpetuate the stereotype. No, I don't. Very high achieving, upper class. But I didn't do any of the, yeah, but I didn't, I did a much, I did a not model-y way to get there. Unconventional. Extremely. I didn't do any of the things that I was supposed to do to get there. And what else would you expect from Fannie Mae?

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Isn't she wearing a cute jumpsuit? Yeah. Thank you. We love jumpsuits here. I love jumpsuits. Yeah. They're the best. They are. A full outfit in one.

Exactly. Piece of clothing. Looks pretty good. Are you guys similar age? 87. Yeah. August 24th. I'm 86.

Nice. 86. Yeah. Well, you're a year and a half older than your brother. So are you born in the July area? Yes. July 19th. Yeah. August 24th. I'm 86. Nice. Yeah. Well, you're a year and a half older than your brother. So are you born in the July area? Yes. July 19th. Yeah.

Oh, almost Kristen's birthday. Okay. So the similarities abound. Similar age. Both love jumpsuits. Sure. Do you like Mary-Kate and Ashley? I don't really know what they're up to now, but when I was a kid, I did.

Okay. We're just going to go through everything I like and see if you like it. You're visiting from New York. Yes. Where do you live in New York? Brooklyn. What area of Brooklyn? Prospect Park. I don't know how well you know that area. I don't. I know Clinton Hill because my favorite restaurant's there. Oh, what's your favorite restaurant? Emily Pizza. Okay. I've never been there. Emily Squared is what it's called. And then they have amazing pizza, but we love the burger. I didn't have my first hamburger until I was like 20. Oh, really?

And I was like, oh my God. This is really good. Life changing. It's hard to hate. My wife was vegetarian for what, like 32 years and ate a hamburger last year in Nashville and has eaten, this isn't an exaggeration, right? Five, six a week since. Can't stop.

Well, she definitely doesn't have an iron deficiency. She doesn't any longer. She's going to have heart disease now. She has some artery issues. Pulmonary health is in a nosedive. And do you get to visit LA a lot? No, this is my third time. Ever? Yeah. Oh my goodness. What were the previous trips? Promotional? One was for a podcast. I co-hosted a podcast called Big Time Dicks about the laws and lawmakers fucking up your life.

And it was at Jezebel. So it came for Politicon. This was several years ago. And then before that, I think it was maybe as a kid to visit family. And we did the whole Universal Studios. Sure, Hollywood Sign. Yeah, yeah, that kind of sign. Yeah. Yeah. That

kind of stuff. All of it. Which I don't remember to be honest. What side of the family was living in California? So my second cousin on my dad's side. Okay. So let's run through a brief history. You're from Pittsburgh. I'm kind of from all over Pennsylvania, but in elementary school, I lived in Pittsburgh. Okay. And then you moved to kind of a nicer something valley. Lehigh Valley. Yeah. Is that where Carnegie lived? Was that where the rich people live while all the steel was being made? Because there's these stories of Pittsburgh that you couldn't even see in the daytime. There was so much gross and steel in the air. And everyone that owned them lived way out in this valley where the air was clean. Yeah. There was certainly a certain part of Pittsburgh that was super nice and had all these like old mansions

and the shady side area. But Lehigh Valley is on the other side of the state. Bethlehem Steel Certainly a certain part of Pittsburgh that was super nice and had all these like old mansions. Yes. The shady side area. But Lehigh Valley is on the other side of the state. Bethlehem Steel is also a steel town. And you know the song Allentown by Billy Joel? Yes. Oh my. Yeah.

I don't think I know it. You do. And it starts with sounds of like. Choo choo? Yeah. Well, they're like industry sounds, but it's got an air horn. Yes. We'll play it on the fact check. Yeah.

You definitely know. Really? It's a standard. It's a really joe go to. What age did you move to that valley? And how far away was that from Pittsburgh? Pennsylvania is a deceptively big state. It's about a six hour drive from one side to the other, six and a half.

And I moved to the Lehigh Valley when I was in eighth grade. So I was 13. I love it when you get to call it the, like the Lehigh Valley. That's cool. The only, the one and only. Sounds elevated. It really does. And your dad, was he a surgeon at this time yet? He had finished his medical training. Yeah. So my dad was originally an engineer. I was born in California in Silicon Valley. And then he decided to become a doctor. So that's when we moved across country to New Jersey, then Pittsburgh, then mainline area outside of Philly. And then when I was entering like eighth grade and then high school, Lehigh Valley, and then that's when he was a practicing surgeon.

Oh, wow. So you had a lot of things that are very not desirable for a kid. First of all, you're other, you're brown, but then you're also moving around nonstop. Because even if you're a tall honky like me who moved to a lot of schools, the start over is rough. But Philly has a big Indian community, doesn't it? It does. But where I lived, not at all. It was very small. There was maybe a handful of other South Asian kids in my school. My brother and I were amongst the only ones that I knew and it really was kind of isolating. But actually, moving around a lot, I kind of liked it. You did? For me, it was a chance to reinvent myself. My brother and I would have these conversations about like the way we fit in or didn't fit in.

And every time we moved, it was a chance to try something different. Another angle. Course correct. Yeah, exactly. If you think about it, it's kind of sad because we knew that we weren't going to fit in and this was a strategizing new ways to like make friends. That's where he realized that being funny was a way to get people to like him. And it was like strategies for overcoming our brownness in a way. Your brother, Yush? Yeah.

Yush, who's a year and a half younger than you. Yeah, he was like cute and funny and into Rubik's Cube and really smart and in high school was thriving. Yeah, we had always been really good students. But as a kid, I was the one who had naturally just loved school. I mean, I was super nerd. I was voted to student council every year. There we go.

And like my art was always in like principal's pick. Okay. Well, you sound popular you were an artist yeah so I was a very artsy kid I was always drawing always writing

always reading I got grounded for reading fiction once oh wow oh my what was the barred book you were reading

you know I don't even remember probably Karen Karen Babysitter's Little that's your favorite series yeah those are my favorite

if I had been banned oh my my God, that's horrible. That was your life. Yeah, that was my whole life. Babysitter Karen. How did you fantasize without fiction? I didn't stop reading fiction. So my dad banned me because I was reading fiction and I didn't know enough about simple machines

and how they worked. So he grounded me from reading and then I was only allowed to read books about simple machines until he would quiz me and ask me questions about how they worked. Did you retain that? No. Do you know the five simple machines? No, I feel like I blocked it out of my memory. And to this day, if somebody's like, well, how does this thing work?

I'm like, I have no idea. Like the internet, it's magic. That's just how it works. But then I would just sneak in books when he wasn't around, so I kept reading. Rebellious. He must have been gone a lot, though, someone pursuing a medical degree and then practicing. Was he out most of the time? Yeah, he was.

So my mom stayed at home, and it was mostly my brother and I and my mom. We were kind of like a cohesive unit. And then when he would come back, temperature would change? Yeah. When he came back, it was all business all the time. It was productivity always. So like in middle school, I had started setting for the SATs. I don't know if you're familiar with Johns Hopkins CTY, that program.

Nope. We know Johns Hopkins. Yeah, we love Johns Hopkins. But I don't know about that. Is that just a prep? Yeah. Center for Talented Youth, I think it's called. Oh, God.

Yeah. I'm jealous. I think it's all in the name. I'm jealous. No, don't be. I'm jealous, but you don't know about that. Well, I did have to go. I did do an SAT prep, but that's just because I was bad at the SAT.

So I did end up going to a Kaplan class, but that's not Center for Talented Youth. No, that doesn't sound nearly as good. That's very lame. And they were not calling Duluth the Duluth. I know. Yeah, okay. Oh. But really quick, your dad, he was born in California.

I thought for some reason your grandparents on his side moved from India to Canada. So my grandparents, they were both born in colonized India and then watched India's independence as teenagers, got married, raised a family. And then I think my grandfather must have been in his 30s or so. They both decided they were going to leave India. So they were already settled and he was successful and he gave all of that up. There were laws in India, foreign exchange laws at the time that prohibited you from bringing your wealth into a new country. So he had to give all that up and decided that he was going to move to the West because he noticed that in his career, there were limitations.

So management was all filled by white men from the West. So he grew up in poverty and it was through his own determination that he was able to get out of his circumstances. And then I think when he saw that there was a ceiling in his own country, he was so offended by that and upset by that. He thought that if he moved to the West, then he wouldn't have those limitations. As his granddaughter looking back on that, I'm like, oh, that's not exactly how that worked out for you. So he landed

in Canada. And the reason he chose Canada over America is he had this like litmus test. So he didn't really understand how Indian people would fit into America's racial hierarchy. So he went to Canada and America and was like, I'm going to go to three different diners in each country and see where it takes longer for me to get served. And he waited longer. Really flawed experiment because even if I go to three different cities, I'm going to get three dramatically different service times. Yeah, this is not scientific at all. If I go to the South, it's going to take a fucking year to get something done.

Well, especially though, especially if you're brown at that time. Yeah, and this is the 1960s. So Canada had shorter wait times. So he noticed that servers were a little bit nicer. Not that Canada is this utopia or anything, but that's why he decided to move to Canada. My father was about nine when that move happened. Okay. So he wasn't born in California.

I thought I heard you say he was born in California. No, I was born in California. You were born in California. Thank you. Okay. And then your mother, what age did she come? So my dad grew up in Canada. mother, what age did she come? So my dad grew up in Canada. And then when he was, I guess,

in his early twenties, he decided he wanted to have an arranged marriage. I didn't know that story until much later. I just assumed that my grandparents sort of forced him to have an arranged marriage. But my grandfather was actually very opposed to the institution of arranged marriages. Because he hadn't liked the wife he got saddled with? I wouldn't put it that way. So his own parents actually had a love marriage, which is what we call. Right. I don't like that verbiage. I don't either.

I think if we're going to say arranged marriage, that's just marriage, you know, in the context of our history. So if we're going to specify that it's a specific type of marriage, then I think it makes sense to say love marriage. For sure. It's good to differentiate. It that it's a specific type of marriage, then I think it makes sense to say love marriage. For sure. It's good to differentiate. It's just such a weird— It is. Well, because since it's being positioned as antithetical to the other one—

To love. The arranged one doesn't have love, right? Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But most certainly the arranged marriage didn't have love as the impetus. Correct. Yeah. Well, love of stability.

Stability and love of wanting to have a family. Sure, sure, sure of stability. Stability and love of wanting to have a family. Yeah. Sure, sure, sure, sure. So your grandfather, though, he wasn't up for that, but he did oblige your father. Yeah. So then my dad went to India to find a bride. Have you heard the details of that story? Like, how does one go to India and procure this? From my understanding of it, basically, like, they put out some matrimonial ads.

I wish I could see what that ad looked like. But then also there was family networks involved. So you put out the call to all the relatives and then they put out the call to all the people they know. Because you're shopping within your social strata. Yeah. That's very important in an arranged marriage. Yeah. Where in India? North India. So my dad's from the Delhi area. And from her point of view, what was that experience like? Terrifying? You're getting a husband you've not met and you're going to another country you've never been to. I mean, it must have been absolutely terrifying.

Yes. Unless she's like you and she loves a new start. Yeah. You know, she's the only one of her siblings who made that choice. Everyone else had strong roots in the city. I always wondered why she made that choice and why she decided that this is what she wanted to do. Is it possible she didn't make the choice that her parents did? No, she wanted to because she was actually previously engaged to somebody else and her father had helped broker this.

and her father had helped broker this. But then when she saw how their family treated the future husband's sibling who had mental illness, she didn't like that. So she actually broke off that engagement. And then this was the second arrangement. And I think my dad was actually supposed to marry one of their siblings. And my mom was like, let me meet this person.

And I think she was interested in moving. I wish I knew now what moving meant to her, I think she was interested in moving. I wish I knew now what moving meant to her and like what she associated with the West. In India, there is this image of the West and America as the land of opportunity. You know, the American dream. Sure. Anyone can move and make it. That advertising is very successful. Yeah. And not false advertisement. I would say that it kind of is false advertisement. How so? Like your father, your grandfather, the dream they were pursuing, they achieved. They did.

But what is sort of eclipsed by that, there's a couple of things. One is that in America, that dream is not accessible to most people. We see the massive wealth inequality and racial inequality and the gap there. There are certain people where it's more possible to achieve that dream, right? Sure. The other thing that it eclipses is sort of the history. So the historical context is that in the late 1800s, Asians were banned. The first racial based immigration ban was actually against Asians. Chinese. Yeah. The Chinese had come to help build the railroads and then they've started becoming an economic threat. So Congress passed these laws to ban entry from Asia and then took away, you know, all sorts of rights from Asian

laborers who are already here. And then I think it was in the early 1900s that there was now a racial quota in place. So the ban was weakened or lifted and then a quota came in. So that quota system stayed in place until the civil rights era. So until the 1960s. The law that changed, it was the Hart-Celler Immigration Act of 1965, and there was a similar act passed in Canada in 1967, which is what enabled my grandparents to come here. That was really a major wave of immigration, and that's what allowed a lot of Asians into Canada and America. There was a story woven around this creation

of this new Asian-American professional class. In the selection system, the criteria was that immigrants had to have skilled labor. They wanted educated professionals. Exactly. Exactly. So it was a creation of this professional class chosen from people who have social privilege back home as well. Then they're coming into a country that has a serious history of slavery and racial segregation. Growing up, I didn't know this history and I didn't really know how I fit in. So yes, while it was more possible to achieve these things, we also didn't understand the story that was woven around this and that it's not possible for all people of color and why it was possible for us. So the story that was created around this was called the model minority

myth. It's the stereotype that all Asians, I think we all know the stereotypes that all Asians are. High achieving academically, financially, the family values, they don't get divorced. Exactly.

That's tricky though. Cause that's a stereotype and a statistical reality. Here. Yeah. Yeah. Asians over index on all other ethnicities in this country. Yeah. But the difference is that it's not because it's some innate. Oh, right. Here. Yeah, yeah. Asians over-index on all other ethnicities in this country. Yeah, but the difference is that it's not because it's some innate. Oh, right.

Yes. Genetically, we're not different. Exactly. And that's the part that gets eclipsed. The systems have changed. There have been so many more waves of immigration since then. So we have such a diverse population. Kids.

I mean, so many generations. Kids and generations. Exactly. And so Asian Americans have also the highest income inequality and disparity of any ethnic group. Meaning within. Within, yeah. There's a bunch of very, very impoverished groups. Yeah.

And then there's some really high achieving groups within this enormous blanket statement of Asians. Right. Yeah, I mean, as we get further and further away from that first wave, the stereotypes become less and less relevant at all. Everyone just becomes ultimately American, but the stereotype still hangs, which is a problem. Exactly, because that stereotype was used in the 1960s to argue, and it's still used to argue, that look, if this group of people of color can succeed, then why can't the rest of you? Well, I think that's a great point. And then you quote in there from US News and Reports where we get our college rankings.

Company list. Yeah, 65 or 67. They use the term model minority. And yes, it starts getting weaponized to say, well, clearly then for black folks that aren't reaching middle class or Latino immigrants that aren't, clearly you can,

because look at this group of people. people. And it does get weaponized. Yeah. And so that's why there's that caveat about the American dream, because when you use the ability to climb the hierarchy for one group of people and you use that to deny rights for others, it's maintaining the status quo. It's disabling people from achieving that idea of the American dream. I had one curiosity about your kind of overarching thought. Sometimes I interpreted what you were saying as this was a game plan that has been executed, as opposed to, in my opinion, where life is chaotic and we are all self-organizing complex systems. That first thing that happens is like, well, if we're going to let people in, let's let people in that could benefit the country. So then you get

this really lopsided entry from highly educated Asians coming here. That's like step one. Now, is it your opinion that they were like, well, let's do that. And then we can also then leverage that against all the other groups. Or does this one thing just happen? Let's let in people that can benefit the country. And now this big ripple effect stems from that. I think you're right. It's not this diabolical scheme. I mean, another part of it was the pressure in the Cold War. The Soviet Union was pointing to American racism and saying, they're so hypocritical. They call themselves a democracy, but look at the racism there. So this was also in response to that, being like, we don't want to be that. The climate was changing and the civil rights movement was happening. The government funded like jazz expeditions to send around the world to say, look at how we're treating black folk. And the response is so wild. There was a big push. And I think that that actually came from, you know, a positive place. It was a well-intentioned policy and idea to open up the borders and change that. And I think the

story that was created, though, was based on observations about this professional class but the way stereotypes work it became the entire story and it just flattened all the history and removed all of that and then this story just stuck so i think it might be interesting to first start with your brother since that is the chronology of how you decide to write this book which is like you first decide to open up about your brother's story. And then based on the response of that, you recognize, okay, I'd like to tell the even broader story. Let's go over some of the pressures. It's very interesting to learn your story.

And then also to know Monica's really intimately and how much they're different. Although the thing is, what's unfortunate, you know the details of my life intimately. And now we're learning the details of your life. So we can see the difference. But anyone else who's just looking at us would say we're the same. Oh, we're both doing well. And we-

Both hot. We both look great. We both like jumpsuits. You have a great passion. Most people at a glance would place us in the exact same category, life, whatever, which is right, wrong. Obviously there's some enormous expectation.

Do we think it's fair to say of all first generation or no? We think it's specific. I think it's probably fair to say that in general, immigrants and their children feel... Most immigrants went through hell to get here. Yeah, exactly. Regardless of race, I can only speak to my experience, but I imagine that all immigrants and their children feel an immense pressure to belong and then also to maintain the connection. You gotta going to live out your parents' dream in a way. Yeah, there's a guilt. Yeah, there's a guilt. And you're the embodiment of all of their hopes and their dreams for coming

to this country and what they gave up to be here. And I think as children of immigrants, we feel that. Sure. It's pretty universal. Yeah. Now your brother though, can we tell your brother's story? Yeah. And by the way, I would really encourage people to read stories about my brother that you wrote in Jezebel. It's really, really beautifully written. As we said, he was kind of thriving in high school or would appear at least. I mean, he was everything that I wanted to be. He turned into my role model. We were very high achieving kids.

But then when I got into high school, I sort of burned out and I started to rebel. And I was this artsy kid. I realized I had a talent for running. So I was really into cross country. I wanted to be an athlete. I wanted to do cross country, see how far I could go with that. And I wanted to be an artist. Like I got into art school for college and those are the things I wanted to do. And in my household, that was not okay. So I was going to ask, was that the rebelling was just your interest you were pursuing? No. So the rebelling came from not being allowed to do those things and the anger that I had, that I had to be this thing that I wasn't. What did they want for you?

My dad wanted me to go into something very professional, business or law. I don't think I was really ever going to be smart enough to go into like medicine or engineering. So I don't think that was a pressure for me, but it was the next best thing. There's a lot even within that. Yeah, there are best thing. There's a lot more even within that. Yeah, there are tears. There's like a little maybe misogyny. I can't imagine your brother was truly smarter than you. I'm sure you guys are pretty comparable.

Yeah, it was a different type of intelligence, I would say. And he would definitely have agreed with that. But he also just had this brilliance that he could just create things that were science fiction to me. So I burned out and I was angry too. And there was misogyny being an Indian girl. There were a lot of pressures on me that my brother didn't deal with. Like he was allowed to date. I wasn't. I had to pretend like boys did not exist. If there

were like boys in my vicinity, if it wasn't school related or studying related, it was like, no, you cannot be there. We're going to keep you at home. From your mom too? It was really more from my dad. My mom was actually really liberal and open and my dad was a lot more conservative, which is interesting because he grew up here and I think there's a perception that people have that like, oh, in America. You become so progressive. Yeah. But I found sort of the opposite can also be true because of like sort of the way that race can be gendered. Oh, for sure. So a lot of Asian-ness can be feminized. And so from the male perspective, like if there's a threat to that, then you want to use that power and kind of get that out elsewhere.

So I feel like that dynamic was also at play. Were you on the side talking to boys or doing anything? Oh, yeah. I was like sneaking them into my basement. Oh, wonderful. I was like, I forged my report cards. I lied about my grades. I was failing at school. So I got a C in pre-cal. My brother was two grades ahead in math. So he was in pre-cal

two at the same time. And he was a year and a half younger. And I got a C in it, which means they made me retake it, which like a C isn't, that's not failing. C in pre-cal is kind of a win actually. So I retook it. And the next year, because I was so annoyed at both the administration and my dad, I sat in the back of the room and I read the play Faust. That's all I did the whole year. And I got a C. I think I got a C+. I mean, I was such an asshole.

I feel bad for my teacher because he was a very nice guy. But that's just the point where I just completely shut down and refused. And I got rejected from pretty much every college I applied to. So that dream of sending me to the Ivy League. Did you go to Penn? No, I went to Pitt, University of Pittsburgh. Oh, University of Pittsburgh. Okay. So that's not in the same strat as Penn. No, but I really loved Pitt and I'm so glad I went there. And what did you major in there? So I studied English writing and finance. Okay. Finance was to appease your parents?

Yeah. When I got to college, I was like, okay, I'm going to straighten out, but now I'm going to try to do it for me. I was sort of out of my father's control and was like, I want to do well, but I also want to do what I want to do. So I was trying to figure out how to do both. So I sort of became this overachiever, but it was an effort to prove to him that I was capable of taking control of my life.

Being spectacular on yet a different route. Exactly. So it was still kind of playing into these expectations, but like trying to do it a little bit differently. Yeah, it's weird. It's like, you want to send a big fuck you to him, which would really just to be like a barista and write poems. Yeah, you're like,

but I'm still going to be fucking exceptional. But I still really want to be great. Yeah. Okay, now your brother, so he goes to Carnegie Mellon, and he does major in computer science, exactly what we would hope for any young Indian boy to follow the computer science route. And he does, and he's spectacular at it.

He is. And his dad just completely enamored with him. Yeah, so unlike me, Yush, he hit all the boxes. I was the black sheep of the family family and he was like the golden boy. What I didn't understand then and what I see now is that I think the pressure of that really crushed him because he didn't know what it was like to fail at something and be okay. Well, if he failed at something, he would be valueless because his value proposition was succeeding academically or professionally. And the cracks start to materialize in college, right? A roommate of his discovers a suicide note and then brings that to your attention. Right.

Is that an enormous shock? It was completely out of left field. So when I graduated college, I went into management consulting, my dad's vision for me. And my first week on this new project that I had just started at the consulting firm, and I got this call at midnight and I ignored it because it was a number I didn't recognize. And then I got a call again and I answered and it was one of my brother's close friends. And he just said, hey, we found Yush's suicide note. And I thought he was joking. The thought that that could be serious did not register with me. So I started getting mad at him. I was like, this is not funny. Do not joke about this. And he was like, I'm not joking. Yush wrote a suicide note and he's missing and we're looking for him. He took his car. Do you know his plates?

And I didn't. I didn't know his plates. Of course you didn't. I don't know my own license plate right and at the time i was like oh my god i'm so stupid how could i forgotten his license plate after that i made a point to remember you know tattooed on your wrist right and i was alone in this hotel room just pacing around i called my boyfriend at the time and woke him up and was like what do i do do i call my parents and he was like yeah of course you call your parents i didn't want to because I mean, no kid wants to call their parents and be like, your son is trying to kill himself right now. And I did call them, of course. And then they drove in the middle of the night and went to Pittsburgh. I mean, I honestly don't know how much time passed, but I called my brother and left him so many voicemails and

he called me back and he was just like laughing. His voice sounded like it wasn't coming from his body. Like it was coming from somewhere else. And he was like, Prach, I'm fine. Don't worry about me. I'm fine. And I flew to Pittsburgh a few hours later and I saw him in the psych ward. He admitted himself and he was there for the next two weeks. So my dad told me, when you see him, don't cry because if you cry, then he'll feel guilty. Oh, Jesus. The logic that happens. I know. I know. You're trying to control something you can't control. Exactly. And so when we hugged, my brother was sobbing in my arms and I was holding him so tight and tears were flowing down my face, but I refused to let him see me cry. And now I wonder in that moment what we were teaching him about his own mental health.

And the fact that he had gone so far down this path and struggled so much with thoughts of suicide, the pressure that he felt to keep that in. And the way that even in the aftermath, he learned that he couldn't express those feelings and he couldn't be sad. He couldn't admit that he needed help. He couldn't talk about depression openly. It just wasn't safe. It was seen as a weakness. And we all sort of affirmed that by not making the environment safe to talk about it. Or show your own vulnerability. Exactly. And now I know statistically, like at the time we thought, how could this happen? Everything was so perfect. He was doing all the things that we're supposed to do to be happy. And this is also why I sort of objected to the idea of the American dream being possible is because I think in America, we're taught the story that if we work hard,

then we succeed. And then if we succeed, we're going to be happy. Success and happiness are not synonymous. We're taught to think that way because that keeps us productive, right? That keeps us in this cycle of labor, of high achieving, of working really hard. But what happens when you get that job, when you get that status in society and you're not any happier? Then what do you do? You turn inward and you blame yourself for that sense of failure. I did something wrong, obviously, if I'm not happy right now. Exactly. And I think we happy right now. Exactly. And I think we were all dealing with that. And we didn't understand that these things that we were accomplishing, they did give us stability and they did give us status, but they didn't give us

inner peace. They actually hindered our ability to be ourselves with each other because what we had learned to do was block out anything that was seen as a flaw or a vulnerability because we were constantly trying to project this image of success and fit into this image of success. It was heightened as brown people, as people who wanted to fit in and belong. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Sasha hated sand.

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He starts different businesses. He works for Intel. He works for different companies. He's very talented. And over that period, I guess it'd be between 21 and 27-ish years old, some other things evolve. And then you guys stop seeing eye to eye. You guys go from soulmates and best friends

to quite a chasm between you. And based on your supposed feminist views and his support of men's rights and having even written a piece anonymously to be submitted to a men's rights anthology, he kind of goes down one path that seems pretty opposite of your path. I show this dynamic in the essay and in the book, I really explore how this happened and why. In our home, the dynamics were not great. We

projected this image that we were supposed to project, but my home was volatile and it was chaotic and we witnessed and experienced things. It's hard for me to talk about, even though I wrote a book about it. Can I tell you something? That's so common. Yeah. You feel very safe in your room writing the book and then you're out in public and you don't have control of this situation. You have the control. I have half and Monica has half. There's 150% on the table here. It's a much different scenario. Yeah. But I hope you know, of all places, this is the one. I do know. harder, yeah. Yeah. But I hope you know, of all places, this is the one. I do know. And I've heard you speak candidly,

you know, about your experiences and home life as well. So I know that this is a good environment. I like people more who've seen some nice violence in their household. I relate a lot better to people who have felt that atmospheric pressure change on a dime. And how do we appease this out of control rage man right now so that he doesn't further harm us than people think i think a lot of people have some level of experience even if it's not full-blown violence at least the temperature change well let's just look at the statistics and body keeps the score 25 of all romantic relationships have physical violence in them 40 of all children have experienced physical abuse. So it's not a fringe experience. In fact, it's borders on-

Which is why it's so important to talk about. This perception that defined my existence adds this pressure that makes it even harder to talk about. I'm very aware, one, of the perception of this model minority that I'm supposed to maintain. And then two, just being brown, being a person of color in America, I'm very defensive about wanting to- Like I know that people look at you and they expect a certain thing. And I feel the pressure of that.

Well, I would imagine that you have to innately and intuitively know that if we are not succeeding and having happy families, we're going to join the other groups in this country that are minorities and the view that goes along with that. Exactly. So the stakes are quite high because you can visually look in the media and see how black folks are getting treated. Right. And I mean, that's also part of why we have to talk about all this stuff. Keep maintaining that status quo, maintaining that hierarchy is messed up for everybody. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everyone loses. Can I maybe just state it for you? Yeah. Dad was really mercurial and he was physical. He was very abusive to mom. You were very careful to not use the word abuse until quite late in the book. It's very, very kind and respectful to dad. But still, we got to say he scared you.

He scared everyone. And he was very controlling. Yeah. And so that's what you grew up being modeled. And so did Yush. And it was the one thing that we didn't know how to talk about. And we began to talk about in very binary terms where like I began to use the word abuse. And my brother saw that as judgment.

And I understand his perspective now because we can't see the people that we love as black and white because we love them. And they hurt us. So how do you reconcile those two things? And I think at the time we couldn't. And we didn't have the vocabulary to talk about it. Because also, it wasn't just family. It was our entire culture. It was our entire sense of belonging. It was home. In white America, we didn't fit in. The only place we fit in was family. And if we don't fit in there, then where do you fit in. So it was like this existential threat to address this issue. And I began addressing it and no one else in my family could or wanted to. And they saw me as the threat, the person who challenged that sense of home as imperfect as that home was, I was the one threatening it. Not to defend them, but also it's a deep, deep feeling of if you threaten this image we've

created, you're threatening our safety. Yes. So we're not safe if we're as fucked up as our neighbors because we're not permitted to have any flaws. We're not allowed to be. Exactly. And that invites in all sorts of things like surveillance, violence, gossip, being ostracized, humiliation. Telling on each other like the communist system. Ratting each other out, exposing one another. No, this this is a stereotype i was about to make a stereotype i want to hear you finally make i was gonna say it's a bit of a gossipy culture as well in my experience with my grandparents and their circle which is really the only indian group dynamic i knew it was quite gossipy but that could have just been my grandma also i think that's

family families are very gossipy. My mother was just visiting. Let me fill you in on how we're basically outachieving the morally. And it becomes an extension of your family when it's this small amount of people in white America. It's like, oh, these other Indian people, I guess, like act as your family. There's all these rungs of competition. It's like you're competing with society at large, but then you're also competing within your own family network. You're competing against your siblings, you know, against your cousins, your aunts, your uncles. Plus when you are in a family system where people don't talk about their feelings,

they have to come out somehow. So instead of talking about your feelings directly, you talk about other people and what they're doing. And that's how we sort of signal what our values or our own feelings are in a safe way, rather than just telling somebody directly. And it becomes a sort of toxic, passive aggressive way of communicating. Yeah. So you started pushing back and then your brother didn't appreciate that. Didn't agree with your assessment. Yeah. And I think this came between us because he saw his role in the family as the one to try to keep everybody together. Yeah. He's got to take over where your dad leaves off. Yeah, he learned how to be funny to sort of fit in. So in our family, he was a peacemaker.

So that's what he was trying to do was hold us all together. He's like, why can't you just shut up about this? Exactly, exactly. It was kind of like that. I'm thrown out of jokes to ease this tension with mom and dad. I don't have any more jokes.

Can you stop? Fresh out of jokes. Could you take your foot off the gas? Yeah, yeah. And I was like, fuck no. Right. I was like, no. I got a lead foot.

You're my best friend. Defend me. And he did to a point, but it just got too hard for him too. And then he had also then absorbed all these messages about masculinity. Like he was trying to belong in a culture where he learned you're not supposed to talk about your feelings. Crying is a weakness. And he, I think as a South Asian man in America, felt an extra pressure to perform this masculinity because of the way that it's racialized.

Indian men are seen as the stereotype is like, oh, you're nerdy. Submissive. Yeah. Well, you point out in the book, which is good, it's like you have Big Bang Theory as an example. Everything in the media thus far is, yeah, the Indian dudes on a computer helping Schwarzenegger break into the compound. Exactly. So one of the things I do in the book is I tie in history and research to show how these stories and stereotypes came to be. This one came from when East Asian laborers were in this country in the early 1800s, the laws around the time pushed them

into jobs that were mostly devalued by white men, so domestic labor type jobs. And then that contributed to the stereotype of seeing Asian men as more feminine. And that was a way to dissuade or prevent interracial marriages and mixing. So that's actually where that image sort of comes from. And it persists today. I have a very fringe theory on all this, just to add another layer, which is I also think all these masculinity tropes are really, really present in how white America views the other ethnicities. So from the outside, I would say of all the ethnicities, white folks seem to be pretty open to Asians being here and pretty supportive of that. White men feel very threatened by black men.

They're fearful of them. That's driving the guns rights issue. It's driving the police brutality. And it's all these levels of being emasculated. So, yes, Asian men don't emasculate white men. Black men emasculate white men. And you see the fear of each other directly proportional to that feeling of being emasculated by another group yeah absolutely and i think this shows the

relationship between racism and white supremacy and patriarchy so the way in which these systems reinforce each other and replicate so these pressures then create these gender dynamics within our own sub-communities and cultures that are just the same exact things from, you know, white supremacy coming down. And then within our own communities, we're seeing that happen too. Right. Well, like colorism as a result of this. I think we need to say that your brother gets what I would call pretty fringe male rightsy. Yeah. Like I wouldn't enjoy having a beer with him at whatever point. I mean, I didn't either. We became estranged. He turned into somebody I didn't recognize and I will never know or understand the man that he became. I didn't like that person. And I also don't believe that that's who he really was. I feel like it was a confluence of factors. And I

really do believe that it was all this pressure to succeed and to be seen a certain way and the pressures of masculinity on him and then the inability to deal with what was going on at home and make sense of that reality that turned him into that. I mean, I know he wasn't happy. Well, his final act is really telling of how he was feeling. Yeah. He pursued a leg lengthening surgery and we had been estranged at the time, so I didn't even know that he was doing this. He told me that he was in Italy working on some new startup company. And I was like, well, that's a little weird that you're in Italy for that. But you know, I didn't really

question it because he did so many eccentric things. Then a few months later in November, I got a call from my dad and he said, Yash is dead. And in that moment, I thought maybe Yash killed himself. Yeah. So that was my first question. Like, was it suicide? And my dad said, no, but he did something really stupid. And my dad wouldn't tell me what that stupid thing was. I didn't know. And then my uncle called me and said, do you know about the procedure? And I said, what procedure? I don't know what you're talking about. So then I called my dad again. He said that my brother had a leg lengthening procedure and he died from post-surgery complications like a couple months afterwards, pulmonary embolism. I think what's really, really interesting about that whole last chapter is

the correspondence that you uncover about people challenging his decision to go pursue this and how dangerous it is to be smart, truly, because he is pushing back and he's acknowledging, I can see where you would think this, but actually it's not about that. It's about this. He has whipped himself into an explanation of this that he believes, which no one around him believes. And that to me is the really heartbreaking moment of all, because who isn't guilty of a delusion that you're smart enough to create and out of fear of just saying out loud what you're afraid of or what makes you feel vulnerable and scared to live in this world? Yeah. You can obviously speak better to this than I can. I feel like men are often pushed into that kind of space where when we don't give them the ability to talk

about their emotions, we tell them it's not safe to talk about your emotions. You have to intellectualize everything in your decisions. And I think as a South Asian man, as a brown man, that pressure doubly existed because then you're taught through the model minority myth that hard work can solve any problem and that your intellect is innate to you and is your way out of all your problems. I think that he had learned early on through both messages from society and then within our own family system that he always had to come up with solutions on his own, that there was not help available for him. When he had attempted suicide, I don't think that he really got the kind of mental health care that he needed afterwards either. Well, and he was on and off SSRIs,

which I'm sure he thought was a weakness when he was on them. And then he wasn't following the best program probably to help. Yeah, there's a big gap in our mental health system for Asian Americans, for people of color in general. You said they're three times less likely to go to therapy. Yeah, to's a big gap in our mental health system for Asian Americans, for people of color in general. You said they're three times less likely to go to therapy. Yeah, to seek therapy. And then even when they do, I mean, 85% of psychiatrists in this country are white. Most don't have the cultural competency to understand the experiences or even begin to really do the kind of effective work that you can do in therapy.

of work that you can do in therapy. So I think for all of these reasons, he couldn't get the help that he needed and didn't have the kind of role models or support that would have helped him, I think, go down a different path. And even though I could have been one of those people, because I had been diminished within the family system as a woman and as a woman seen as breaking the family, I was the last person that he would have accepted help from in that regard. Yeah. It might have felt to him like he was conceding you were right the whole time. Right. Oh my God. It's so heartbreaking. I'm so sorry. One part of it I got curious about was what was happening for him mate selection wise? Because I feel like that's such a driver of why we do anything. I think his perception was

very different from the reality of it. It's interesting. When I interviewed his friends and asked them about this, a lot of his friends saw him as a sort of God. They were like, he could talk to women and they all wanted to date him. And it was so easy for him. And we were all so jealous. And then like one of our good friends

who's Indian origin said, Yash was sort of the epitome of what I thought that I could be one day. Like in my best self. The high water mark. Maybe. Yeah. And it was so interesting, the contrast between that and how Yash saw himself. So he couldn't see that. All he saw was the tall, somebody who looked like- You say me. Yeah, like essentially you. He saw you and was like, that guy can get all of this and I can't get that and I'll never be able to

get that. And I understand that experience because as a brown girl, I felt that way too. When I saw a tall blonde white woman, I could see the power that she had in a room that I would never have. I had people say things like that to me and I don't know if like, yeah, so this is a very common experience. I actually had a guy say to me once, well, you're pretty for an Indian girl, but Indian girls can only be nine tenths as hot as any white girl. Yeah. These are things you just will never unhear too. Like you can't unhear that. Yeah. Her parents work at Dairy Queen. Yeah. My parents worked at Dairy Queen. They didn't, but like that was a nut. Dad was an engineer, mom was a computer. Exactly. Can't date her because of this. That's not even real, but yeah. They're not real and yet

then they shape our realities and you internalize that. Whereas I think Yush had internalized a lot of these messages. The reason that happened was because he fit so many of the quote unquote tropes as his natural self. Like he was smart at science and math. He was naturally brilliant and he was so many things that conform to the stereotype. And so I don't think he really ever developed the ability to entangle himself from that. So he began to see these expectations placed upon him as who he is and who he has to be. I think because I really at a young age couldn't fit into this mold and started to reject it. And I began to ask questions about, well, why can't I fit in? Why is this so

hard for me? What is going on here? That I began to separate these two things and see that there is a stereotype at play and see that I was never going to fit into that and that I don't want to aspire to fit into that. Because when I did fit into that, I didn't actually feel better about myself. It wasn't enjoyable. It wasn't enjoyable. You get this little bit of validation

and then that goes away. You're living for the day the grade comes out and it's an A. Yeah. Or the day the acceptance letter arrives. But nothing before those moments is pleasurable or necessarily fun. And those things also depend on other people's assessments that are kind of made up in a way, right? Yeah, it's all made up. These are all metrics that somebody decided mattered. Now we're competing to be seen this

way. But like getting a good grade doesn't mean that you are a kind person. It doesn't mean that you're happy. It doesn't mean you'll be successful necessarily. Right. It cannot define your whole worth. And I think so many of us are raised to see these things as that. Let me ask you though, do you think this problem just inherently solves itself in that all second and third generation kids will be liberated from that? Or do you not think so? I don't think that those pressures will really go away. But what I do think is that they also don't have to be as intense as they are.

Like, I think that we're in a moment where we have now a couple generations here. We have the ability to understand the history, the context, how these stereotypes were created. And we have a choice to understand the history, the context, how these stereotypes were created. And we have a choice now whether to say, do we want to keep perpetuating this? Or can we start talking about this stuff and start talking about our feelings and maybe find a new way to do things so that we don't burden the next generation with this quite as much. I can't control all of these other people, how they think about me, but I can control how I choose to respond to that and how much of

my self-worth comes from that and change my relationship with the idea of external validation. And I think if we can teach the next generation to do that less, to teach them that their value doesn't come from these achievements and what they accomplish in the world and instead comes from within and focusing on fostering our relationships with each other and talking about our feelings, then we are healing people. Yeah. It's just so much is stacked against all of us. I mean, you look at what's happening on dating apps and how 93% of women are choosing these 4% of men. There's all these crazy forces that you would hope to transcend, but are still very much a part of our reality. Like what your income is, is going to dramatically shape who you're with and your academic achievements going to do. The force of mate selection is not stopped. It's still going to asymmetrically benefit people who achieve these

things. I think it will. But at the same time, you know, that dating advice, it would always kind of annoy me, but it was like, well, if they don't choose you, it doesn't matter. Like you got... Spared. Yeah, exactly. And I'd be like, well, I wanted to get chosen by that person. But it kind of is true. If somebody doesn't see your worth or your value as a person because you're not tall enough or you don't make enough money, like fuck that person.

They need a lot of B with that person. But the only thing, if we believe this data that's out right now, like Scott Galloway's toting and a lot of different behavioral scientists are talking about, 96% of males can't just decide, well, then who cares that I don't have a date? But here's the thing. You don't need to date 96% of people. You only need to find one or two people who get you. And it's just so hard in general to meet somebody who you connect with like that. They're always going to be those things. And I think there are certainly a lot of people with social advantages to basically have a bigger dating pool. But even within that, meeting somebody you really connect with, I think is hard. Yeah, it's just interesting.

The prevailing advice right now for young men is they used to be in college at a rate of 75% of the population of colleges was men. Now it's under 40%. So less are going to college. Dating has transitioned to not the workplace, but these apps. On these apps, 96% of the men on the apps can't get a date. These are like epic problems. The advice really quick is just go to college, achieve some stuff, and then you will be a part of that 4%. It's not go to college and achieve some stuff.

It's be a person worthy of a relationship. It used to be the opposite where men had complete control and power. So they just picked, I want this hot girl, and he got her. And now that is changing because women have a lot more power and a lot more agency. It doesn't mean that men— I think it's gotten worse, Monica. I think what you're seeing from at least the data of the apps is that the 4% who have the money and the height, they're getting now all of the women as opposed to- It's not just money and height though. I've looked at these apps. It's what is this person going to

offer not money and height, personality. Because I do think for a very long time, men didn't put that much effort into a personality because we all did value other things. We valued their income. You think women have stopped valuing that? I think women who are successful on their own don't care if the guy has a ton of money because they have money.

So they just need a good partner. But again, there's all this very, very conclusive data that women only date laterally and above. So I disagree with that. Statistically, that's not actually what's happening. Men date laterally and below. Women date laterally and above. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I just, I want the same solution. Yeah. But I think some of the questions aren't really being addressed. I think there's very questions aren't really being addressed. I think there's very strong forces that were kind of, oh, yeah, that'll work itself.

Well, how's that going to work itself out? How on earth do we address that? It scares me. I certainly don't have the answer to how we address that. I will say, though, that one of the things that I want to try to do with the book is show how we have these large systems at play that shape our realities. Maybe this is overly optimistic of me, but I do believe that in our personal lives, when we start to make slightly different choices, when we start to hold the people we love accountable, when we start to make decisions that like, okay, I'm going to date beyond these criteria. When we start to make small

decisions like that, they do have ripple effects. And I do think that that is how we begin to change these larger cultural issues and systems that you're talking about. I don't think that that's the only way to do it. Certainly not everyone's going to wake up tomorrow and start doing that. But I think when we start having these conversations and understand how these pressures are making people feel, then we create a dialogue that can shift the culture. Yeah. I wish actually personality was obvious on an app. Right. That's why I hate apps. Yeah. How does one know if someone's really funny and a great listener by looking at their profile on the app? I just think the technology is like

kind of compounding an already terrible problem. Yeah. I wonder what the percentages of people currently in relationships that are from apps versus not. Yeah, I would love to know that too. Because I think that makes a difference. My mom is in the app category, as you know. Yeah, and it's working out. Yeah, she's very happy. Yeah.

Last thing I would like to ask you about is once you write stories about my brother and you see the reaction, I imagine it was very scary to publish that. It was. But then again, I bet you had had the experience where so many people felt seen by this article and related. I was blown away by that response. I heard from immigrant moms who said, I had no idea my kids might be struggling with their mental health. And now we're going to start talking about mental health in my household. we're going to start talking about mental health in my household. I heard from Asian boys and men who said, I was going down a very similar path as your brother. And this essay convinced me not to and to find a different way. And now I'm talking about my mental health and my friends and I are talking about it like with other boys. I heard from sisters who were estranged from their brothers

or had really complicated relationship with their brothers. And it helped them be more compassionate to them about what their brothers might be going through and find like a new way to start talking to them. And when I saw that response, I realized that I had thought I was so alone in dealing with these things and that we were all dealing with them and we all thought we were alone because of the tremendous shame that we all carried with these things that we perceived as failures. That's when I realized like I had to tell my full story. You know, one of the things that I wanted to do with the book is show how normal the kind of confusion

and struggles that we're dealing with really are. What is it do you think, Monica, if you had to explain why your father, Ashok, was so not stereotypical towards Nermy and you? It's all I keep thinking about. Because I feel like within there is some hopeful recipe of confronting it. Yeah, my dad is not like your dad. I have to just be very honest about that. And he came in his 20s, early 20s? Yep, for his master's. And I guess we'd have to ask him. I think he would say he was in love with his mom. His own mother. Yes. And really with such deep respect and still speaks of her that way. And he has an older sister. He very much respects her too. And she was super successful. And he was the baby.

And kind of, which I think is funny now, he was sort of the black sheep. The goofball. Yeah, like he was sort of the Wobby Wob rascal type. Okay. And- Love Wobby Wob. Yeah.

And I love his show. But he was not the one achieving. So maybe he didn't- The other people in his world. Maybe he had already surrendered that he wasn't going to be the big star of the family. Well, I think he just probably early on. Wasn't his identity. It wasn't his identity.

Because I think even when he moved to the States, it was kind of like, I guess I'll try this type thing. It wasn't, I'm definitely going to the United States and I'm doing this. It's just his personality. I think I got lucky. United States and I'm doing this. It's just his personality. I think I got lucky. And I think the maternal relationship had a huge impact on him and his feelings towards women. He seems very egalitarian. And maybe also being the youngest, he's had to just kind of bop around with what other people are doing and not care. I don't know. But I mean, sometimes he does like yell and stuff. It's not like-

Everyone's got to yell occasionally. I guess. I mean, your dad sounds awesome. Thank you. He is very lucky. Her mom's fucking radical too though. Well, she's not taking any shit. Not that anyone lets anything happen

when they're in an abusive relationship. It's so complicated. But she's running the ship. I think there are a couple things. So in my family, I think it's very interesting that like my grandfather, for example, started identifying as a feminist when he was in his 80s. He was sort of the traditional Indian patriarch. When I became a journalist, he would start calling me up.

He would tear up when he talked about Malala. And he was like, Prachi, I have this list of Indian women I want you to interview. He loved powerful Indian women. And I was like, Dalaji, that's really not what my job is. It's not just interview famous Indian women. You're not the one woman hype squad for all. We would talk about feminism and he was like, God's a misogynist. He would say really radical things. And this is my dad's dad. I think what's so interesting with this dynamic is I always felt like I couldn't tell my story because I was so afraid of confirming stereotypes. But in telling my story, what I realized is that those stereotypes also formed roadmaps for members of my family.

My dad as a boy, trying to fit in, especially when there were no South Asians or very few South Asians here, these roles became roadmaps. So there's a complicated dynamic there that happens. There's this flattening that happens of being like forced into this role that you don't necessarily want to be, but you also don't see another way to be. But then also in their relationship, there was a real power differential, right? Like my dad grew up here and he had citizenship. My mom was an immigrant and that put her in a much more vulnerable position. What was the age difference? There's no age difference. Yeah, same age. But there is that power differential, right? She's joining his life. He's not joining her life. You don't have your family here. You don't have a job. You don't have the ability to have a job because of immigration

status at first. And so there were all these factors at play that created this. And then it sort of confirmed socially the roles, but then also like I saw how she was forced into that role, both by society and by expectations of people around her and, you know, people in my dad's family as well. Yeah. Well, the book is so beautifully written. You're such a great writer. I'm sure you already know that, but it's just very eleg is so beautifully written. You're such a great writer. I'm sure you already know that, but it's just very elegantly and beautifully written. And I don't think it could have been easy. I didn't start telling stories probably about my dad until he was

passed. I still struggle when I tell stories about my mom. It's essentially a love letter to my mom. My parents are still alive. And are they together still? Yes. I agonized over this so much. I'm struggling right now with a lot of shame over talking about this and exposing it. So if my brother were still alive, I would not have written this book. I would have hoped that we would find a way to reconcile or at least just whatever relationship we could have had. I would not have been willing to sacrifice that. But after he died, I had so much grief and rage over how he died and the way that he died.

And I really believe that if he had had a book like this, if we had been able to have these conversations and he could have disentangled his identity from these pressures, that maybe he would have chosen something else and he would still be alive. And so like, I felt this urgency and there is this pressure that I see as we get more visibility in this country, especially Indian Americans who are the wealthiest immigrant group have this visibility in society. How are we going to use that? Are we going to use that to help dismantle racism and show how race is constructed and operates? Or are we going to use it to, you know, like Vivek Ramaswamy and the GOP justify oppression

and say we are an meritocracy and then pass on these pressures to the next generation and make it even harder for them? Well, I'd also imagine there's an additional pressure on you, which is this notion that, well, Indian Americans should be very grateful at all times because they've come here and as you say, they've become the wealthiest ethnicity. And so they should be grateful and to

be critical of anything here seems ungrateful. There is that. Like that you don't have the right to be critical. So in that pressure, I think it's just like continuing to increase. So I think we need to like deflate that a bit and begin opening up about these issues because I'm not the only person in the world or in the community who's dealing with them. And I do struggle too with the estrangement aspect. I find that there's so much stigma and shame around estrangement. It's also really common. So one in four Americans are estranged and 40% of Americans will be estranged from a family member at some point in their lives. But I think the way that we talk about it is we focus so much on reconciliation

that we frame it as a bump on the road and as like, oh, families, will you just reunite and come together and we'll live happily ever after again. But that's not the reality for most people who live with estrangement. And sometimes it can be a really affirming or positive choice. Sometimes that happy ending is choosing yourself. Yeah. I feel like the steps are kind of like you get the confidence to say, there's only one version of a relationship I want. Here are the rules by which I'll play by. And then if that person refuses to meet you there, at that point for your own self-protection, sometimes the best option is to go like, well, then I'd rather not go down this path with you

because I feel terrible after every time. I'm going to prioritize me over you. Yeah, because it really takes a toll on your mental health. I was destroying myself. Like I was having suicidal ideation. I was like fantasizing about suicide and I couldn't keep doing this to myself. And the reason that I wrote all this to my mom is because I have so much empathy for her and so much compassion. And after my brother died, I thought about like what would happen if one of us died before I had the chance to tell her who I really am and why there is this distance between us and why I can't have the relationship with her or be the daughter that she wanted me to be or that she needs me to be. And I didn't want her to die or me to die without sharing that with her. I didn't know how to say it to her. So I had to write to her and I had to explain to her this

distance, in my opinion, is created by this story that I think she had to buy it to her. So I had to write to her and I had to explain to her this distance, in my opinion, is created by this story that I think she had to buy into to survive and make it in this country. It's a story that I was raised on that I ultimately came to reject. And we live on opposite sides of that story. So I wrote the book as a letter to her and all of my explanations are in service to this relationship. So all the history that I draw from, all the translation that I do about who I was then and who I am now, it's not in service to white readership. It's all in service to this person who I love and it's centering my mom. Yeah. It's funny though, because I read an interview

with you and the interviewer immediately wants to know like, well, has it been repaired? Like that you cannot resist, right? Like after all that, that person's curiosity was immediately, then are you not estranged anymore? Because that would be the worst. That makes people feel safe. Yeah. But it also, I think, perpetuates the shame and stigma over estrangement because it makes people feel like the choices that they've made to create this distance are wrong. And it's only an okay ending if there's a reconciliation. This is counter to that. But it's funny as I was at that point with my dad at one point and I had a therapist

and I said, you know, I think I'm getting off this ride. And the therapist said, you're entitled to do that for sure. I think the only question you just have to ask yourself is, are you the type of person that doesn't talk to your dad? And I was like, hmm, I don't think of myself as someone who won't talk to my dad. Like, oh, that's interesting. You kind of like use my identity against me. And then I did. I don't regret it. He's also dead. So we got to repair a lot of stuff. There was like a very beautiful and restorative last few months he was alive that I am grateful for. But it is interesting that that was what the therapist asked me, which ultimately made me open to it. That is interesting. I don't think my therapist would ever ask me that, to be honest.

Yeah. But I also think that these things, there's no one size fits all solution. Of course not. It's so, so specific. And your mom's not my dad and I'm not you. I think around estrangement too, because we don't talk about it that much, I was always trying to find answers from other people. And ultimately, you can only answer that for yourself.

Well, and as you said, part of the myth is really great family values, high overachieving in academic success and financial and professional. And so if you reject the academic and the professional, the last thing is, yes, you're dismantling yet the third kind of tenet to it all. Yeah, there aren't that many estrangement stories in general. And a lot of the ones that we do have are either written after a parent has died or they've reconciled. I don't think that I could have waited emotionally. And maybe this is selfish of me, but I knew that I would never be able to move forward in my life mentally, physically, emotionally, if I didn't write this. And it was part of my own healing from my brother's death in order to really live again. It sounds like it's in defense of your brother's memory in a weird way.

Yeah. It is because his brilliance was really glorified and romanticized. Even at his funeral, that was the number one thing that people were talking about. And I got up there at his funeral. Originally, I wasn't going to speak because I was like, I don't feel like I have a right to speak. He was estranged from me and was really angry with me. But then when I started hearing everyone talking about how smart he was, I felt really angry because I was like, he was so much more than that as a person. And I think if he had really known that and known that he was valued

beyond just his intelligence or his work ethic, then maybe he'd still be here. So I read this poem that he wrote to me, this like nonsensical, fun, dumb poem. Rhymes Pratchy Pratchy. Welcome to the Pratchy Pratch was what it was called. It was just like saying my name in various ways over and over again. Welcome you to the Pratchy Pratch. So I just got up there and read that poem and it was like my tribute to him. Well, what I admire is that, and I often tell myself here, I'm really open about things after they've happened

or I've worked through them or I've come to my conclusion or I've resolved it or I've made amends. I'm very reluctant to say like, no, right now, today, I'm struggling with X, Y, and Z. It's much scarier for me to let you know, oh no, currently I'm struggling, not just after I've resolved it all. Yeah. And it hard. It acknowledges the uncertainty, right? It like requires that surrender. Well, and it's antithetical to story. You and I are both storytellers. Yeah. And so

story needs an ending. And this is not, this is up in the air. You and your mother could be eating fudge at Mackinac Island next year. You might not be, we don't know. Right, that's what I wanted to do with it is show the honesty of what it feels like to live in this space. Because for many of us, when we are dealing with estrangement,

that pain is ongoing and it's uncertain and it's unresolved. And we don't know when or how it will be resolved. Sometimes it goes until somebody dies or right before they die. And then we tell that story afterwards and we can offer that resolution. But when we're living with it, we don't know.

There's no guarantee. I really wanted to capture what that felt like. So many of us experience that, but don't see that reflected in the media. Yeah. Well, this has been incredible to talk to you and to meet you. And I, again, think the book's so beautiful. And I think so many people, as you say, one in four are estranged. I think this will speak to so many different people.

And I think a lot of people felt the pressure. It's called, They Called Us Exceptional and Other Lies That Raised Us. It's out now. I really hope people check it out. It's been really, really nice to meet you. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you wanted to talk about? Oh, good question. I wouldn't mind talking about therapy a little bit. Yeah, let's do that. Yeah. So what has been your own journey with therapy? At what age did you look into that and how has it helped you? So when I was in management consulting, that was the year that my brother attempted suicide. And then a couple months later, my dad attempted suicide and I needed help. I was at this job where I was severely depressed and I didn't realize that I

was severely depressed, but I was pretending like everything was okay. So I would go into work. I would do whatever I could. I would kept all my emotions in. I had like a per diem because I was in consulting and I was traveling. So I could eat at the fancy restaurants if I wanted to. I would go to the grocery store. I would buy a bag of grated cheese and then a big bottle of yellowtail. Oh, wow. I came home. What's yellowtail?

Wine. It's just this cheap, cheap wine. It was like 10 bucks. I was going to ask how much you drink. You had different childhoods. You both love wine. We build a bridge on that. I do love wine. It was like 10 bucks. I was going to ask how much you drink. We had different childhoods. We both loved wine. We built a bridge on that. I do love wine. I do love red wine.

It was low-class wine and cheese night. I would go home. I would turn on Law & Order SVU. I would sit in front of the couch. I didn't even have a spoon or a bowl. I would just dig my hand right into the bag, drink wine, and that was my dinner. I hate to say this, but as an addict, that sounds good to me.

Like when I watch these movies where someone's down and out and they're down, I'm like, yeah, I kind of like that. Cause you're doing everything, you know, you're not supposed to, you're like, I don't give a fuck. So here we go. I'm going to eat this bag of cheese. Yeah, but that's exactly right. Like I don't give a fuck. I don't care about my life. I don't care about my health. I don't care. I'm just eating this and drinking this until I can stop feeling. Yeah, that was my version of numbing out. And then I'd go to work and I'd be completely numb there. But what I saw with my brother and my dad struggling, I realized that I was heading down the same path and I couldn't do that because I saw what that was doing to them. And so that prompted me to start to get help. It was actually a woman in

the HR department who was like, so you would be qualified to have, you know, six sessions of therapy covered by the company if you want to do that. How nice of her. At first I dismissed it because I was like, I'm not suicidal. Isn't that what therapy is for? It's like talking you out of killing yourself. She mentioned it a couple of times and things were starting to feel pretty bleak. And I was like, you know what? It would be really nice to talk about this with somebody because I didn't tell almost anybody that this was happening. Like I pretended everything was fine, even amongst my close friends, most family members. And it was just like this double life that nobody knew about.

So therapy was the first time where I started talking about it. And then I thought that that's what therapy was for. It was like your one place to tell the truth when you couldn't do it anywhere else. I was just like, oh, this is a person who will validate me and like listen to my emotions because no one else in my world will. So it was helpful for me. And then I stopped after those six sessions because I was like, I'm not paying for this out of pocket. Yeah, the wine and cheese is like nine bucks. A few years later, when I was in my relationship, there was nothing like acutely wrong. We weren't really in love anymore. It was just like a very platonic friendship. And I was dealing with all

this other stuff. And my relationship wasn't really offering me anything either. And I was just like, is this what marriage is going to be like? Because I don't think I can do this. So I started seeing a couples therapist with my partner at the time. And that was helpful, but it was like for a very specific reason. And then we broke up and then it ended. A couple of years later, when the dysfunction in my family was really heightened again, I saw a woman, her office was near Central Park. So she was an older white woman. It was like this kind of stereotypical, like what you used to see on TV, where you just like sit on a couch, talk about your problems. And like a person listens and looks at you. I guess like always felt like she was judging me. She probably wasn't.

Maybe she was. We don't know what's in her head. We don't know. It just wasn't doing anything for me. And all these experiences, especially that one, I started feeling like, oh, is there something wrong with me? People talk about it like,

oh, this is the cure-all. It'll help you. But it wasn't really helping me. When I had my falling out with my brother, that shook me so deeply because this was the one person who was my world, who within my world, who within my world never made me feel like I was wrong. And now he treated me just like everyone else did.

It broke me, but it was also the moment where I decided I am not going to be that thing. I am now stepping into this new identity and I have to find a way to live with that and make peace with that. I realized that maybe it would help if I saw a therapist who shared in my identity and maybe that would make a difference. So I started looking up Indian American therapists in New York City and I found this woman who was Indian American, children of immigrants, identified as a feminist and was a Buddhist. So she had the spirituality and I didn't know if it would be helpful or not. And I didn't really know what to expect, but we began to develop like a relationship and I began to like trust her. It sounds so obvious that like therapy, you're so vulnerable and you're so defenseless. And if you're seeing

somebody who can't understand you and really see your experiences, it can also be a place of violation. It can be a space where you open up and somebody comes in and tells you that you're wrong or makes you feel that you're wrong. And I'm glad I didn't have that experience exactly ever, but it is this very fragile thing. And I think when we talk about therapy as a one size fits all, or just like, oh, go to therapy

as if that'll solve your problems. Well, it won't unless you find somebody who you can really trust and who really gets you and sees you. So I was finally able to develop that kind of a relationship and that sent me down this journey. And I would say like a spiritual journey, honestly. We've been working together now for almost seven years and I still see so much value in it. I'm a totally different person now, or maybe I'm the same person, but more authentically myself. Yeah. My dad summarized it best for me when I called him and I was like, yeah, I don't like AA in California. It's not like Michigan. I don't think I'm going to go. And he goes, okay. He goes, how many bars did you go to before you found your

favorite bar? I don't know, 10,000. I've been to so many fucking bars. And he's like, you know, maybe you put half that much effort into finding a hey meeting you like. Maybe you try a bunch. And I would say that's similar, yeah, with therapists. And I, too, can relate because I would prefer that my therapist is an addict. We have such a specific fucking take on everything that I need that person to know that take. And you don't want to have to explain yourself in this space. Yeah. You want that shorthand, I think. Yeah. Oh my God.

What a pleasure. Yes, this was lovely. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so fun. I wish you so much luck. I hope everyone gets They Called Us Exceptional and Other Lies That Raised Us. Out now. Get it. Read it. It's beautiful. Thank you so much.

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It's like barefoot water skiing while dolphins click with glee. Whoa, let me try. Nah, it's like gliding on a gondola through waving waters as a mermaid sings. Nah, it's like Coca-Cola with a refreshing burst of raspberry and spiced flavors. Yeah. Try new Coca-Cola Spiced today. This episode is brought to you by Tresemme. Want silky smooth hair that's still full of natural movement?

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It's not really a riddle It's not It's just a design I mean it could be a riddle but I don't know it Does it have anything to do with the rotundras or whatever it's called? The way Paris is laid out in those pie divisions? Maybe You know what I'm talking about? It's Parisian Yeah The brand Maison or whatever it's called, the way Paris is laid out in those pie divisions. Maybe. You know what I'm talking about?

It's Parisian. Yeah. Maison Margiela. It's fancy. Oh, I don't know how to speak fancy. So what is the Paris thing? You know, the whole city is laid out in a... Oh, Arizona. Yeah.

Arabiati. Arizona. Arandax. Let's see how to say it. I know how to spell it. I don't know how to spell it nor say it. Arrondissement. This is the word for the city sections in the large towns.

Arrondissement. Paris, Lyon, and Marseille. Those towns are divided up into sections called arrondissement. Oh, my God. That's really hard to say. We're never going to be able to say that. I know it much less now that I heard him say it than I thought I did. Well, maybe.

I don't know. I mean, you said it was a riddle. I love riddles. I don't think they have this many of them. You know, our mutual friend Delta makes up riddles. Like you. I guess you're right. I didn't even connect those dots. You make up riddles. Like you. I guess you're right. I didn't even connect those dots.

You make up riddles. I do. She's more prolific. Okay. Hers are coming in pretty hot and fast. Give an example. They're so bad I can't remember one. Like they don't add up, right?

So A, it's one of my favorite things because it's hard to keep a riddle you made up straight in your head. So she was like, you go to go roller skating. And she knows she's got to make these words perfect for the riddle to make sense. So now she stalls out for a while. Okay, yeah. You go roller skating and you can wear, I don't know what the punchline is, but inevitably I cancel the riddle.

And then she tells me the answer. Okay. This is just a way for her to have control. No, she sincerely believes these are good riddles. Really? Yes. I'll say, because I want to reward the effort, but I'm not going to lie and say this is a good riddle, right?

So I'm like, wow, that was really creative. It didn't hit for me so much. I didn't like get So, wow, that was really creative. It didn't hit for me so much. I didn't like get that, oh, that's the answer. And she's like, dad, I don't know. They sound exactly like your riddles. That you love. I don't understand this. You're gaslighting her.

So good. Wait, that was going to remind me of something. Riddles, Tom Riddle. Oh. Voldemort. Oh, he played Voldemort?les. Tom Riddle. Oh. Voldemort. Oh, he played Voldemort? No, Tom Riddle is Voldemort as a kid. Oh, Timmy Riddle.

Oh, my God. You know so little about Harry. I know. Considering I've sat through the last six books at night. I know. I can't pay attention. I can't. I love the writing.

It's so beautiful and impressive. But there's too many monster names and gibberish talk and spells. And this is the wikiwoki and they're playing cribbage. And here's. They're not playing cribbage. Cribbage is for muggles. Quidditch. Quidditch.

Quidditch. Oh, my God. You have no respect. I've been watching them nonstop. Oh, yeah. The movies. In preparation for Halloween. Yes.

I've been in a Potter mood, and I watched all the movies, which the movies are fine. Oh. They're not. Hot take. It's not really. I think anyone who. They all made a billion dollars. They're made for kids, though, too, and you're grown up now.

Well, no. It's if you really love the books. Right. The movies are good. They're made for kids though too and you're grown up now. Well no it's if you really love the books the movies are good. They're fine. They're fun to like see the world but there's so much left out. I mean they can't put nearly the effort. What they would have loved to have

done in hindsight is to make three movies out of each book. Like they did with the last one too. Yeah. Okay so you just reminded me of something i was so curious about and now i'm sitting with someone i can ask yeah i of course saw the movie before i ever heard the book right or minimally i saw the posters and everything like i knew what terrence posner looked like per who was cast daniel radcliffe. Yeah. And Hermione. Oh, sure. Emma Watson.

And Ron Weasley. Rupert Grint. Right. Friend of the pod. Yeah. Friend of the pod. But you went the other direction. Yeah.

So what had you pictured? Yeah. They were a mess. I guess there was a dumb little cartoon character on the cover, wasn't there, of a couple? Yeah. But those are just cartoons. That's just like like that doesn't affect it you were picturing a real boy what i wish i was a real boy even though he's a wizard

he's a boy so why couldn't i also be a boy oh i wish he could i mean please call me a muggle i know it's an insult but it would would flatter me. It's not an insult. The insult is another word. We're not calling anyone that. Well, there's a racial pejorative for muggles. Is it in the book? Yeah. Mud blood.

I won't say. We cut out the mud blood, right? Yes. Why can't we say that? It's bad. It's like. But it's not. No, but it is.

It's made up, though. Whatever, Dax. Can you just get on board with that? It's bad. It's like... But it's not. No, but it is. It's made up, though. Whatever, Dax. Can you just get on board with it? I'm sort of crying, actually. Right now, I don't know what part's real and what's not. Remember what day it is? I absolutely do. When I was journaling this morning, I thought, I wonder if she'll have had her shot before

she gets here or if she's going after. It's not a shot. It's a pill. Did you already take your pill? No. I can feel it in me. You's a pill. Did you already take your pill? No. I can feel it in me. You better not abuse. Well, I feel like you're

going to be like, you're feeling rascally like you're going to test the waters. No. I'm here to support you and inquire about your very favorite topic, Terrence Posner. Okay. Go on. So, who were you picturing? And were you in love with Harry? No.

It wasn't a... Come on, you didn't have any sexual... Did he ever get sick in the book? Good question. Did he ever have diarrhea? Were there any characters you were in love with? No. It wasn't that.

It was the world was so spectacular and so transformed. Sometimes I still, every now and then. I think you could still go there. That's real. I wonder, am I, am I a wizard? Yeah.

Maybe. Kind of. There's 1%, 0.1% of me that thinks. Have you ever been like at a zoo and the glass disappeared and then an enemy ended up inside? No, I wouldn't be Parseltongue.

Okay. Parseltongue is when you can talk to snakes because I hate snakes. Right. So Harry is parcel tongue and can speak to snakes like Voldemort because they're connected ultimately. Yeah. Spoiler. And that's why he let that

snake out. Sure. But I am not. But he also was able to do something with the glass too. Right. But wait, you're really afraid to say the fake negative word out loud? I don't want to say it. Why? Because it's completely made up in a fairy tale. Yeah, but it's a bad word in that world.

I know, but we're not in that world. We're in the real world. Well, we're talking about that world. Okay. Very interesting. But you said Voldemort out loud. Yeah. Your post-Voldemort.

Well, no. Harry and Hermione and Ron, they said Voldemort out loud. Yeah. Your post-Voldemort. Well, no. Harry and Hermione and Ron, they say Voldemort. If you don't say it, it increases the fear. Well, and they defeated him, so he's gone. It's like talking about him. I'm not there yet. But anyway, what I pictured, she describes them very specifically in the book. I think the worst casting, even though I'm really

glad this person was cast because they did a great job, but Emma Watson is way, way, way too cute to be Hermione. Okay. Because Hermione in the books is not cute at all at first. Okay. She blossoms

into a sexy, beautiful woman. But Emma was always so cute. Yeah. She's so pretty now. It's going to happen anyways when they got rich. Yeah. They didn't get rich. The kids did.

The kids did. No, they didn't. Yes, the actors. Oh. Yeah, I meant the actors. Oh, I thought you meant Hermione and Ron and Harry. But Harry, because I'm reading the books, Harry's super rich. Harry's rich.

He goes to that bank and they give him so much money. Yeah, he inherited a small fortune from his dead parents. Yeah, it looks like a big fortune. He walks into a room and it's stacked like fucking 10 feet tall in the movie. Yeah, you're right. He's loaded. He is. Oh, this is DuckDuckGoose.

It's totally off topic, but needs addressing. Okay. I know you don't read comments, so I can play this game with you. I'm going to give you three guesses because there's three people that are coming up nonstop. If you had to describe Wobby Wob, who would you say he looks like? What famous people? I'll give you three guesses. say he looks like? What famous people? I'll give you three guesses.

Hmm. Hmm. Well, is it connected to Harry Potter? Not at all. Oh. That's why I said Duck, Duck, Goose. Completely off topic. It's just not a Duck, Duck, Goose at all. It's just a complete different topic. Well, Duck, Duck, Goose to me is opposite of Ding, Ding, Ding. Right. That's right.

Okay. Um, can I have a hint? No, I mean, just look at him. Do you think he looks like any famous people? No, then no, I don't. Okay, great. Let me look at you, Rob. I mean, I wouldn't have thought that either if I hadn't read this stuff. So today's post.

I've gotten one of them before. Only one? Because there's hundreds of you. There's a couple. Yeah, there's a couple I've gotten. The biggest takeaway of the Kimmel episode Because I posted the picture of those two Is Are you ready for this?

So many of them Elijah Wood I think these are my hairs longer I got that more Tobey Maguire People want you to wear a Spiderman outfit for Halloween Which I would like to see Those work

And then Kieran Culkin Succession I can see that I can see that to see. Oh, okay. Those work. Yeah, they work. And then Karen Culkin. Yeah. Succession. I can see that. I can see that. These are all good though, Rob. These are all good looking guys.

Yeah. I'm happy with all of them. Yeah. Okay. Well, actually there is a ding, ding, ding to Harry Potter in this episode. This is for Prachi. Ah, Prachi Gupta. I was realizing when I was rewatching the movies in the fourth book, they have a ball where they, you know, they have dates basically. Okay.

There's two Indian characters in the book. They're twins. In Terrence Posner? Mm-hmm. And I like have a like bad feeling about them. Okay. And I wonder why. And then I was like, like oh i guess just because

that's my like own self loathing but then when i was watching the movies i remembered harry and ron go with them as a last resort to the dance yeah okay and then they don't back up plan yeah and then they like just don't want to dance with them and just like let them sit there and i was like oh my god no no wonder and it all reinforces and this is part of what we were we talked about that a little bit on this episode where she you know she was saying you know someone told her an indian person can only be nine tenths as hot as a white person and then obviously the whole the whole episode about her brother and needing to conform to this white ideal. Anyway, it just reminded me of that. I don't want to lessen or make light of your experience.

I do think you made the right call. People often either get to be smoking hot all through school and then that's it. And then the rest of their life it's downhill. Or you, you've got a quadrillion admirers now. And I think that's the right trajectory. Yeah. But it's still, it just affects you your whole life. Oh, big time, big time. Yeah. And my point is it is reinforced. Like it's not just made up in our heads. And this was just an example. It just reminded me. It's a combination of in yourself and confirmed outside. Right. Anyway, that was a ding,

ding, ding for Mary. Okay. So how you went to a wedding? How was it? It was perfect. Great. By the way, second wedding in Oregon, that was a home run. And both for the same reason. Much different vibes at both weddings, but very homemade. And that's so special. Yeah, it is. It's nice. I don't know if Hannah did it or her friends, but they had embroidered every napkin with your name. Oh, that's so cool.

Of all the guests. Cute. And look, they did it on a budget. Yeah. And yet that right there to me, I was like, well, this beats any venue anyone could ever rent. Any anything. Yeah. It was at Brad's family's home. Okay. Impossible yard. Ooh. Probably three acres. Front of the house, redwoods. Back of the house, river. Ooh. So you couldn't have been in a more enchanted place to get married. Nice.

And then just the vibe and all the friends from Houston and her sister Sophie and those two dancing together And all of it was just so lovely. That's awesome. Weddings are beautiful. I'm going to give a shout out to a restaurant in Portland. Well, first of all, I had that incredible meal on the airplane on the ride up. I don't know if you saw my post. I saw, yeah. Yeah, so first it started, it was like a blessed culinary trip.

Great meal on the way up. And then first morning, and I'm going to make fun of Trevor, Erica's brother for this. We're going to go out to eat. They're already, some of them are already out at a coffee shop. Meet us here. We walk over. I'm saying I looked up breakfast next to the hotel. There's a place right over there called Cheryl's. It's supposed to be good. Trevor starts laughing. He goes, oh my God. His girlfriend said, watch, they're going to want to eat at Cheryl's. It was a big laughing stock. It was very pedestrian to go to Cheryl's.

Oh no. I start teasing him about being the bourgeoisie and hoity-toity. Sure. He's got a great sense of humor. He's laughing. Well, we go. Unanimous best breakfast any of us have had in a decade. Wow.

So Trevor, I don't remember what he ordered, but I know what he ate, crow. It's incredibly good. Wow. What did you get? Yeah. I had corn beef hash, extra crispy, four over easy eggs on top. Oh my God. Yum. Went back the very next morning, had the exact same meal. It's fun when you find a local spot. If this thing existed by our house, I feel like I would go eat breakfast a few mornings a week. My father, I was remembering, he went to a restaurant every morning for breakfast on his way to work. Yeah, like diners. Doesn't that seem foreign, the notion of like going to breakfast as a meal?

I do sometimes. I like it. You do? You should try Millie's. Millie's Cafe in Silver Lake is really good. Yeah, this place is like a breakfast institution. That's very obvious. And they're turning people. They're getting so many people served. Yeah, yum.

Oh, fucking Cheryl's. Well done. Tip my hat to you. Fun. Yeah, feather in the cap of all Portlandians. Really beautiful. Everyone should check out Cheryl's. What'd you do this weekend?

I had a very low-key weekend I was and is still a little bit but so much better having this like crazy back pain that I think is connected to ovulation but I don't know

but that kept me down a little bit but it's okay. I'm sorry. So did you watch a bunch of shit? I watched a lot of Harry. That's sort of what I did. Oh, okay, okay. And then I did a couple cooking projects.

What'd you cook? I made a chicken. Oh, you love to make a chicken. I did. You make a whole chicken, right? It wasn't, this one was not a whole chicken. It was chicken parts. Okay.

And tomato. Allison Roman, obviously. Okay. AR. It was really good, but my apartment does smell like chicken. Well, that's preferable to fish. It is. I have my Dyson fan air purifier going.

It's working. Okay, great. Slowly but surely. I didn't really put it in the right spot. I realize I don't think I know about fans. And airflow and stuff. Yeah, I don't understand that. It's very mechanical.

Do you have a window in your kitchen? Yeah, and I always open that. And you need to put a fan that's blowing the air out into the alley, sucking and blowing out into the alley. So in front of the oven? No, in front of the window. Okay. Because if you were to, if they made all the air color, you know, you see these in science experience. And you watch what happened to the air in a room with just one fan going.

It all will get sucked in there really quickly. Okay. So I'm taking the air from outside? No, reverse. You're taking the air from your kitchen and shoving it outside. It'll create a low-pressure sitch in your kitchen, which will then draw air from the rest of your apartment under the cracks of your door from the hallway,

wherever the air is coming into the apartment from. Okay. Sorry, so I'm putting the fan blowing out. Okay. You know, wherever the air is coming into the apartment from. So, sorry. So, I'm putting the fan blowing out. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Okay.

Well, I still have it in the wrong spot then. Okay. I've been moving it around, but I never did that. Just kind of baking it into the walls. Yeah. Making it bounce off things. I guess so. Okay.

Now I know. Now I'll put it there. Great. So, oh, one thing I wanted to mention, I'm going to do a draft. It's fantasy football time. Oh. I'm not doing fantasy football drafts. I was going to say that happened probably a couple months or a month ago. I'm not doing that because I don't care enough about football.

You don't believe in that. Okay. I don't believe in that. But I am doing a Taylor Swift draft. How does this work? Right. So there's a podcast. I talked about it on here called Every Single Album, Ringer Podcast.

And they did it on there. And so now I'm going to do it with a couple friends. And it's scary. So the way it works is you're basically creating your perfect playlist, like 12 songs. But they can get taken. So it'd be like I say clean is my first draft pick, is my first pick. Then you go. So you can't take clean.

And you might say blank space. And I probably wanted that. So I'm going to be mad. Okay. And I can't have that on my list. Okay. Okay? Yeah.

So it's scary because I won't get everything I want. They do this on the show and it's fun to just hear. But I thought we could make it real by posting the list. Like once we do it, post the list and have people vote on what is the best one. What happens once you have your list? That's what I'm saying. No, when they were playing it on the ringer. Oh, it was just for fun.

You pick your list of 12. Yeah. Well, and some, you don't get all of them. Okay. And then somehow, and then it's over. get all of them. Okay. And then somehow, then it's over. There's no like competing somehow. For them, it was over. That was just like a fun activity

they did. But I'm saying we could add more stakes to it by one, either making those lists on Spotify and then seeing how many, who gets the most listens. Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. There is, okay, some data.

Or just post the list on Instagram and see what people say is who would they pick. Won't it perfectly mirror, if I were to type in Taylor Swift and then artist comes up on Spotify and I go over there, it'll list in order of downloads, streams. It'll list, in order of downloads, streams. Right. So I can go and look at this list and pretty much guess with pretty good certainty what one's going to win. But you won't get all of those. I know.

I'm just saying the data is already in on all the songs, in a sense. She's got a real deep bench, right? Real, real deep. Deep. So I think we're going to try that. We'll figure out a way either via Spotify playlist or on Instagram to get a sense of who. A winner. To get a winner. Okay.

I'm scared. I might cry. Oh, well. Because I have a few songs I really want. Also, if you do it in this coming two weeks. I am going to. Okay. Yeah. I, if you do it in this coming two weeks. I am gonna. Okay. Yeah.

I am. So I'm probably gonna cry. But I'm excited too. There's one song I really hope I get, but I think Molly wants it also. Oh, boy. Scary. Well, you know how these drafts work in fantasy football? Yeah.

Like often you get a budget and the players are priced. And this would be my point. Like if you want Tom Brady and you're in a fucking draft, you might have to spend $12 on him out of your $20 alarm. So if I go to Spotify and I see, oh, her number one song is like 4 billion downloads

versus number two is 2 billion. That one should have more value. And there should be some way that you have to pay a price to get something of more value. That makes sense. But see, so that's why when they did it originally, it wasn't what's the most popular. It's what their personal, this is my favorite. I get that. But because you're going to turn it over to the audience to vote, it seems like it would probably trend towards whatever has already been voted on.

Perhaps, yeah. But I think we're all in the right spirit of it, of not just that. We want it to be our list. Okay. All right, great. What's the name of my song? Yours is Wildest Dreams. Wildest dreams.

It's a good song. Oh, it is. It might be on mine. We'll see. It's funny to hear. One of the songs came on in the car while we were in Oregon. And Kristen said to the girls, you know, this song's about Harry Styles. Oh, it's probably style

Oh it's called style It's like when I knew you were trouble when you walked in Oh that's trouble but yeah So they must have dated Yeah they dated That's what's so fun about this world She's dated everyone

No not just that There's a vault song that came out on one of the newer ones and it's called When Emma something about Emma. Our Emma? Well, there's like speculation on which Emma and a lot of people think Emma Stone

because they were really good friends at that time when she wrote this. Okay. When Emma Falls in Love. Yeah, When Emma Falls in Love. So, and I don't want to trigger any defensiveness. This is a sincere question. Yeah. I want your real analysis wrote this. Okay. When Emma falls in love. Yeah, when Emma falls in love. So, and I don't want to trigger any defensiveness. This is a sincere question. Yeah. I want your real analysis of this. Okay.

Why does everybody hate John Mayer for having dated every famous person, yet no one hates Taylor and she's dated every famous person? Why do you think there's a huge difference? They hate John Mayer because of Taylor. It's mainly the Swifties. He dated her.

I'm surprised they didn't stick together because they have the kind of, they both are. What? Well, they both love dating the, you know, getting at every famous person. Well, okay, that's also not fair because a lot of people who are famous stay famous people, right? Yeah. And others collect it. But I was like, she's dated probably as many people who are famous as you have.

Oh, no. I think she's far surpassed her. No, I don't think so. She just, her songs are about them, so we know more. But I know a lot of, I know who you've dated.

Some of the funny business. I know you've dated. You've dated a lot of famous people. But I will admit that I was attracted to that. Now, there's other people like Amy Adams who's not out, you know, she's not date heartthrob movie stars. That's just not what she does. Right.

And then there's some of us that do. I'm not throwing rocks in a glass house. I'm admitting I too. Oh, okay. So I'm just saying those two seem to be apex success at it. No one hates you for that. Well, people did hate me for that. That's exactly what that thing on the wall you're looking at is.

People don't like that I was with famous people because they didn't think I was hot enough. I just think it's interesting that I do think for the many stereotypes for gender that, you know, women are slut shamed and that's definitely inarguable. That's the truth. I do think it's interesting that it's a weird reversal. I don't know all the details of what people don't like about John Mayer. I know Swifties hate him. That I know. But I don't know about anyone else who hates him.

Yeah, I do. And not from Swifties. Oh. But everyone loves, all the women love that Taylor, and I love it too. It's just interesting. I think it's interesting. I don't know that people love it. I think if a guy is banging a bunch of people, at this point, he's going to take a lot of heat for that.

Leonardo DiCaprio. If he's dating young girls. Sure. That's normally where this stuff starts coming into play, what people are mad about. Yeah. John Mayer is in that category. Right. She was really young when they dated.

But Jennifer Anson was much older than him, so that's kind of cool. They dated? Yes. Right? No. Yes. I'll see. I think that was one of his many.

Jennifer Anson. Paramours. Post Brad Pitt? Yeah. Post Brad Pitt, what year? This is one. This is why I know it, because I think when they broke up, he gave like an interview to TMZ on the sidewalk about their breakup.

And I was like, ooh. 2008 to 2009. Well, I mean, he shouldn't have done that. That's stupid. That's what made me – like I don't care who he's dating or hooking up with. But when he gave that, I was like, oh, this guy is – Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone thinks that's bad that they... I didn't know that.

That's kind of cool. Yeah. I think it's only bad if they're like, you know, 18 and stuff, and you're 35. Right. And that seems to be common for Leonardo DiCaprio, which is why people talk about it. I think that's a John Mayer thing, too.

It is. Well, but Jennifer Aniston's older. Yeah, but I think it's like Kiernan. I think he's a John Mayer thing too. It is. Well, but Jennifer Aniston's older. Yeah. But I think it's like Kiernan. I think he's dating her now. She's like 21. Oh, Kiernan Shilpa. Yeah, the... Madman.

Child. Child, yeah. The daughter and the madman. Anywho, but I know what you mean. I think a lot of her with the dating is more well ding ding ding a riddle like a lot of times now or not now but easter egg before you would be kind of searching for who is this about sometimes it's more obvious like style she wasn't very no and dear john opaque about that one. Who's John?

John Mayer. John Mayer, yeah. Okay. And Jake Gyllenhaal. No, Jake Gyllenhaal, to be fair. How many more are there? See, this feels a little, because like, again, that's three. Okay. Three people of fame.

Uh-huh. Who's the best? Well, let's hear it. Let's hear the list of them. Harry Styles. Yeah. Joe Jonas. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they dated. Jake Gyllenhaal. Harry Styles. Joe Jonas. Oh, yeah.

They dated. Jake Gyllenhaal. JG. Taylor Lautner. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That was so cute. That was really early, early days.

Calvin Harris. John Mayer. Tom Hiddleston. Ooh. I'm not. This is just a Google list. Right. We don't know for sure not, this is just a Google list. Right, we don't know for sure about it.

I do. Lucas Till. Matt Healy, who I think is the 1975 guy. Is that the Owl City guy? No, the 1975 guy. Hmm. Uh, Joe Alwyn. Yeah, that's her most recent, he's not famous.

But they've broken up and he's written, she wrote an album about him. Are they still together? No, they were together for five years, most recently. They just recently broke up. Does she have a lot of songs about him now? They've written songs together. Her songs about him are like basically

sorry we can't have a normal life. There's like a bunch of that because he seems much more like... He wants to be interspersed with the real world. Yeah. Adam Young's the Owl City guy. Right.

Yeah, everyone's really sad about the new breakup. Joe Alwyn, he seemed like a really good match. Okay. And it didn't work out. Okay. I think because her life is too big. Yeah. What?

Nothing. I just love her life is too big. Yeah. What? Nothing. I just love how you talk about her. Everyone should listen to this podcast. You'll learn so much. Here's what I think. Okay. If I was reading you a list of the Myers, what's his name? John Mayer.

John Mayer. And he's written 13 songs about the girls he's been with. I think you would have a bad taste in your mouth. He has. All of his songs are also about people. We just don't. Body's a wonderland. Do you want John Mayer's list?

Yeah. All right. We got Jennifer Aniston, Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Jessica Simpson, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Minka Kelly, Vanessa Carlton, Renee Zellinger, Kristen Cavallari, Kiernan Shipka, Sheena Marie, Rana. So we're running out of really famous people. That's a lot of famous people. Yeah, we got to more with her, but that's fine.

I'm not trying to say one's better or worse. I'm just saying they're very, very comparable. It's a great comp. Right, but I think he does get away with it. The only people who don't like him are Swifties that I know. Yeah, I think there's other elements to the John Mayer thing. With people not liking him? With age.

Right. Same with, I think, any man who's getting shamed for it. Your lovers were normal age. Well, Ashley was much younger than me. 10 years, I guess. But that's not, these are like 20-year gaps. He's 45 and Kiernan's 22. Yeah, okay.

So double, more than double. Yeah, it's not the same. Anyways, I will say this though, and I do believe in this point. Not everyone is the same age that's the same age. I'm sure when people met Taylor at 22, she had already toured the world six times. She had already been a professional for this. She's already owned six houses. She is not a 22-year-old in a lot of ways.

In the same way, when I met Ashley, Ashley had already had a bigger life than I had. She had started this incredible fucking brand, The Row, already. So I do think that has to be in the equation a little bit. Well, like Mae Whitman. Mae Whitman has been on a set since she was five years old. When I met her and she was 22 playing 15, she seemed 38.

Right. Like, anyone will tell you that that was around her. Like, her references are all from the same era that mine would have been. Yeah. So I just don't think they're all the same. It's not. There's more nuance. It's not just like this is the cutoff

or it's this amount and then it's bad. But you have to look at each individual situation. And you should listen to Dear John because that's her song about John Mayer. Oh. It's just an interesting, it just seems like it was an interesting relationship. Her and John Mayer

Bad it was a bad relationship You should read the lyrics I know it's also such a good song It's such a good song She's such a good lyricist I can't believe it Well there's a line She's an American poet

Dear John don't you think I was too young to be messed with Yeah The girl in the dress cried the whole way home Yep She's an American poet. Dear John, don't you think I was too young to be messed with? Yeah. The girl in the dress cried the whole way home. Yep. She wrote that. That was Speak Now, so she was young when she even wrote it. 2010 it was released. Yeah.

13 years ago she released it. It's also interesting now because this is truly one of the reasons I do love her so much. I've always liked her songs a ton, but me liking her a lot is more new and it's because of her evolution. You see a kid in these younger songs and angst and anger and- yeah i'm sure jealousy i don't know i'm not allowed to use any pejoratives well no you are but i didn't you just but you don't know the songs well when i hear like i don't look like those girls and i'm not a cheerleader and i'm not the early ones those sound like jealous those sound like oh they are well she started out that's also why she's an interesting kind of character because she started out as that person.

Like, I'm like you. Yes. We're not the cheerleader. What's her name? Lady Gaga. Yeah. Like, literally, her lyric of she wears short skirts, I wear t-shirts or whatever. She's on the bleachers.

Yeah. And that's who she was early. And then she became. The cheerleader. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so it's a strange. Every one of her boyfriends is the quarterback from the football team.

Right. So it's a strange, I'm sure for her, identity shift that she's had to, I'm sure, like struggle with taking on of, oh, no, I'm not that person anymore. Yeah. Probably hard when you've like built this foundation on I'm on the outside. Uh-huh. which I guess is a lot of famous people's situation. It's 100%. Yeah.

It's just weird. It's, yeah, it's seen as endearing in this situation and it's seen as predatorial and when it's a male, that's what I'm kind of pointing out. Well, no, we've been on the ride with her this whole time. Since she was 15 years old. But like, I get it. Yeah. She was never the cheerleader and

now she is and yes she's dating all the jacks why wouldn't she that's the dream we're all instilled with like she's doing everything you would expect i'm i have zero judgment of her i totally understand her yeah i think it's weird that if a guy does it he's a predator if she does it it's endearing but who's saying who's a predator john mayerer? A lot of people. Yeah, I think if a male does that in public right now, they're in trouble. Our boy that we had from fucking Succession. He's getting blasted because he fucks a lot of people. I mean, truly.

He can't go fuck a bunch of people. Well, it wasn't. It was on like Dumois, go find Nicholas. It wasn't he's getting blasted. It was like like Dumois, go find Nicholas. It wasn't he's getting blasted. It was like, but he's a fuck boy, but not in a bad way. It was like, he hangs out at this bar, so go there if you want to hang out with him. I mean, Liz is like, he used to go there. You think right now in our current culture, a guy can fuck a ton of women and be out loud about it and not be looked at poorly.

I just want to know if we have a completely different view of what's happening in our current society. No, I think if you are being disrespectful to women, if you're just like having sex, hey, leave. And then the next day you have sex with another person, hey, leave. Yes, I do think that is looked down upon now. And it wasn't always. No, no. Yeah. People are like, if you want to hey, leave. Yes, I do think that is looked down upon now. And it wasn't always. No, no. Yeah. People are like, if you want to fuck, fuck.

Now it's a moral issue. Promiscuity is now a moral issue, which I find to be curious. If both people want to just fuck for the night and never talk again. I want to be abundantly clear. I like that Taylor does what she's doing. All I'm saying is, I don't know why we're saying that other people can't fuck.

Like I don't understand the movement of no one should fuck. But she's in relationships. Yeah, so that's what she wants to do. She wants to date the popular guy for a spell. That's how she's getting her validation. Yeah. So I'm not judging how she gets her validation. Someone else is getting validation just by having sex.

But her validation isn't at the cost of a person just, I'm just going to have sex with you and not talk to you ever again. I would argue Jake Gyllenhaal probably feels differently. I think he's probably feels like he's paid an enormous price for being in a relationship with her. And I would imagine John Mayer feels like

he paid an enormous price for being in a relationship. She paid a price too for being in relationships. No, hold on though. You just said, what about if the girl wanted a relationship and the guy just wanted to have sex? Is he a pig? She pays a price for that. I'm saying these guys that have been with her

have definitely paid a big price. So does that make her behavior amoral? I don't think so. Relationships are different than, I mean, you have to believe that, right? I don't. I don't think that being in a relationship is more moral than just having casual sex. I don't think morality is in the mix.

Well, I think it is amoral to use someone for sex. What if both people are using each other for sex? Then that's not using someone. That's two people consenting to a situation. Yeah. But if you're using someone for sex and you know it's just for sex and you don't care to ever talk to that person again, and they do,

and you know that there's a high chance that they do, yeah, I think that's a bad idea. You think it's amoral for someone to only want sex from somebody else? And have sex with someone who wants more. If you lied, anyone who lied and said, I want to date you, if we have sex, I want to date you, pig, liar, deceptive, bad.

We meet at a bar. We don't know each other. We fucked that night. You wanted to fuck. I don't see the morality issue there. Now, the next day, someone wakes up and they, either boy or girl, decide they want to be in a relationship. It doesn't work out. I don't know what your expectations were.

You didn't go on a bunch of dates. You at a bar and fucked yeah yeah so i don't like calling that a moral i disagree with it feels very puritanical or no if you are on a date with someone and you recognize oh this person like really is into me and likes me and clearly wants to date me. And I don't. I'm not interested in this person at all. Right. But I do want to fuck. Yeah. You might need to think about that for a second before you go through with it because that person wants a lot and you know you don't.

Oh, great. So I take this as exactly as you're saying it. So one person wants one thing. Another person wants the other thing. Yeah. And you know you're not- They both wanted something. But you know one person isn't going to get what they want.

They're not going to get the relationship. You already know that. You don't want to be in a relationship. What if the person's saying, I don't want to be in a relationship? And then the person who wanted to be in a relationship with them fucks them. Then who's, is that amoral? If the person was honest, like, oh, I'm not be in a relationship. And then the person who wanted to be in a relationship with them fucks them. Then who's, is that amoral?

If the person was honest, like, oh, I'm not looking for a relationship. I mean, I guess if you're straight up, look, I'm not interested. I am interested in- And rolling around and having some fun tonight. Yeah, having fun tonight. But that's really all I'm interested in. I'm just being straightforward. And they say, yeah, that's fine.

Great. Everyone is on the same page. Okay, great. It's when you know, and this is where fame gets into play here, right? And that's just a reality of being a famous person. If you're a hot anyone and you're on a date with someone and you can kind of tell, you can, well, anyone can tell anytime you're on a date with someone. Do you think this at all, like, takes all responsibility away from everybody?

If your true intention is to, like, date and marry this person, isn't that on you to any degree? Wait, say it, sorry, say it again. Like, your position is, like, if a girl, like, wants to be with a guy and the guy only wants to have sex And then they have sex that first night and then he doesn't call her. He's a jerk. Where's her responsibility? Like, is she responsible at all? For what? For what happened.

Which is what? That she likes a person. That she had expectations that were unrealistic. But why is it unrealistic to like a person you're on a date with? That's just. unrealistic. But why is it unrealistic to like a person you're on a date with? That's just... No, to assume you'll be in a relationship with somebody, I

think is a crazy expectation. Not to assume a relationship, to assume there's something mutual happening. If a guy is just trying to fuck, that is a different set of goals than, let's have sex and see what our chemistry is, and maybe

there's nothing, but I like you enough to do this is a much different thing than like, I just want to fuck a body tonight. And it does. And I don't actually care who it is because if the other person cares, that's shitty. Yeah. I just, to me, it makes the, the other party have zero responsibility, which is like, because the intentions were nice, they're absolved of any responsibility in the whole situation. And that to me is selling people really short and kind of takes away people's autonomy. It's kind of like the conversation I wandered into on Synced. It was about Taylor, of course, dating Jake Gyllenhaal and that he was too old. of course, dating Jake Gyllenhaal and that he was too old.

But if she pursues him or she wants to be with an older guy, you're on the outside going, no, she can't. You're taking away her autonomy. No one's saying no. Well, to paint her as a victim means that she wasn't autonomous in making the decision. No, people can be victims in a situation that they have entered into. There can be carnage in a relationship, in any sort of interaction that people have, if someone's doing, someone can be doing something bad and it happens in marriages all the time. People have entered that. It doesn't mean just

because you've entered a marriage and people can be horrible to one another or take advantage of each other or whatever. I'm just saying if a 25-year-old gal pursues a 35-year-old man and then they break up, I don't think the 25-year-old can then say you're a predator and you were picking on my- Well, she didn't say that. She did not say he was a predator. She did not say Jake Gyllenhaal was a predator. Right, but when I walked into the conversation, it was about how gross it was in the video

that aged him. Yes, this is coming up on Synced in a couple weeks. Someone wrote in because she's in a relationship with a much older person with a kid. And so it reminded me that I had just watched this All Too Well music video. And I've never considered the age piece in the Jake Gyllenhaal-Taylor Swift relationship. I never really thought that much about that. But then when I saw it visualized, it did look like, oh God, she does look like a kid.

And it just was jarring to see. I'm not saying he took advantage of her. They were in a relationship for a while. I don't think he took advantage of her. But I do think there was probably a little bit of a power dynamic in there. Maybe not. I don't know. I wasn't in it.

I wasn't in it. But that relationship had a major effect on her is all we can sort of know. But not that they shouldn't have had sex. She wanted to. No one's saying that's a problem. It's just Swifties are like, that person hurt her. And that's life. If I had a son and he fell in love with some older star, female, I would say to my son, you need to have appropriate expectations.

This person doesn't go long with anybody. Like you can't imagine you're going to be the crazy exception to the rule that has been established by this person. That's not fair if the person is telling you every day, I love you so much. You're my world. You're my – no. You have to leave that at the door if you're entering any relationship. You can't – with one leg in, pretty much always – I'm sorry.

If you meet someone that's been divorced six times and you're going to get married, I think you're being absolutely naive if you don't think divorce is at least highly likely. I mean, we're just pretending that the people don't have patterns at that point. Well, I guess, but also in, I mean, yeah, that's a little bit of a divorce thing. A lot of people date a lot of people until they find the person they're going to marry and then they're done, like you and like Kristen

and like everyone. But that wasn't me, actually. I had a five-year relationship, a nine-year relationship, and then now this one. Well, you dated a lot of people in between. You've had many relationships. I had sex with other people. You were in a relationship with Kate. You were in a relationship with Ashley. You were in a, and then you've had sex also, but you've had smaller, you're that other girl. I forget her name. I'm just saying, if you met me at 32, you would have known I was in a relationship for nine years. So what you would know me was like, this person is like, they're into long relationships. That would be the right assumption about me at that point.

Now, if you'd met me at 32 and I'd never dated anyone longer than three months, you would absolutely be naive and just willingly not acknowledging reality to think, oh, this person's built for long-term relationship. But that is, that's painting with such a broad brush. Like if people look at my story, then they'll be like, well, she's never, she's never dated anyone seriously. So I can't date her because she's never dated anyone seriously. That's different but it's not it's looking at my history and my patterns and but you don't have a history of having a new boyfriend every two months yeah but I have my own history and I'm but that's your own history isn't the least bit problematic for committing to a relationship well I don't for a

lot of people it might be it might be like she has no experience she has no I gotta be really clear there's nothing wrong with dating someone every three months or not having dated anyone A lot of people, it might be. It might be like she has no experience. She has no. I gotta be really clear. There's nothing wrong with dating someone every three months or not having dated anyone for a year. I'm not saying that at all. I'm talking about personal responsibility, being realistic. I understand. Also, on the personal responsibility end, if you're love bombing a person, you have to understand that has an effect. If he every day is saying, you're my person, I've never been more in love with anyone

than I have been with you, or I'm, all these things, of course she's going to believe it. And by the way, that is where age starts to come into play. When you're younger, you are more likely to not take that with a grain of salt and to just be like, yes. Let's just say I have two daughters. I'm not, my advice isn't going to be to them.

If you meet a 38-year-old guy when you're 22 and he's saying he's never met anyone like you, that's crazy. I mean, that's the advice I'm going to give to my daughters because I love them and want to protect them. I mean, yeah, it's complicated. Okay, so. We did a good job. Congratulations. We did, but now we have to get into something Okay Okay, the city in Pittsburgh that I say Carnegie

Carnegie? I know you say it I know, everyone should say Carnegie That's what everyone says I know, it's like Neanderthal Yeah In Orangutan

Yeah, it is Point Breeze. It's called Point Breeze. I got lost in one when we went on our detour. Oh, it's the area in Pittsburgh where he lived and other rich people lived. What was it called? Point Breeze. Yes. Attracted Pittsburgh's wealthiest citizens who built large homes and mansions along Penn Avenue.

Carnegie moved here in 1862. Okay. I was going to play Allentown by Billy Joel. Actually, I will. Yeah, you will. That whistle at the beginning. We love the whistle. We love the whistle. When we're living here in Allentown

And they're closing other factories down Out in Bethlehem they're killing time Filling up forms, standing in line But our fathers fought the Second World War We'll see you next time. You recognize it? I don't. It's on his greatest hits. I don't have that album. Oh, should I keep going?

No, still nothing on the chorus? No. Okay. I don't know it. Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey

Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey

Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey

Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, it oh wow okay another entire we could have a hour-long conversation on so we're not gonna okay but maybe next time okay but i will say the analysis that is cited on the the dating app percentages the galloway yeah yeah scott's main thing is from a hinge engineer

that's since been taken down and removed the article yeah okay so that finding is now considered it's disputed yeah and then there's a lot on it. So feel free to do deep dives, people, on this because it is interesting and there's lots on it. But that particular, this amount of percentage goes to this amount of people. It's also cited in a book I read. Oh, you'll have to let me know. I'm curious. You probably don't think it's 96 getting 4%, blah, blah, blah. But do you think it's pretty skewed or no? Do you think a small percentage of the men are getting access to the vast majority of women? I think smaller percentage, but there are also more men on the apps that's on here as well.

Okay. According to Stanford, this was in 2017, 39% of heterosexual couples reported meeting their partner online. So that's sort of substantial. Yeah. I wanted to find if Indian Americans had a higher percentage of suicide. Were you able to find that? Not really. It's all like broken down into non-Hispanic.

You know how it's like. It's either white, non-Hispanic, white, black. Yeah. It's all broken down. Asian. Yeah. But I wanted specifically. Subcontinent.

I did. I couldn't find it. There was some, there was stats in India, of course, but I wanted to know Indian Americans and I couldn't find it. But I wondered about it based on her book and all of this stuff. What's your gut guess? My gut is it's high. Interesting. Yeah.

My gut is it's not high. And I wonder if that's part of the model minority myth I have been presented. Right. I think it might be high because of it, sort of in keeping with what she said and like just what I know personally. Right. Wow, this is way too anecdotal, but seems really high in the rich kid population. I'll say that, right? Inordinately high.

Yeah. You heard this thing Eric has been saying, like three kids, I think, whatever the fanciest one is, they had like three suicides this year. And I don't think that's happening at the lower class schools. Yeah. You know, we've had all these people on basically saying a lot of it is these pressures. And often that does show up in schools like that. Yeah. Yeah.

They have to be perfect and they have to have straight A's and get a perfect essay. And their parents, they have a lot of free time. So they're micromanaging. Like the best part about my mom being- Busy. Yeah, she could only know so much. Yeah, totally. There wasn't enough time in the day

for her to micromanage my scholastics. Yeah, pressure from all angles. Yeah, but if you have a parent, if you got like a dedicated at-home parent and all that parent does is worry about whether you're getting into college or not, it's gotta be insufferable. Yeah, and you've grown up in this private school system that tells you from day one, your parents have put in a ton of money and effort to get you to the highest level.

The point of this place is to get you to Harvard or Stanford. Yeah. So if you don't get, yeah, if you end up going to U of M. You're a failure. You're a piece of shit. Yeah, I know. A school I would have cut off a finger to get a job. Exactly. Yeah, I know. A school I would have cut off a finger to get a job. Exactly, yeah.

Oh, that reminds me. One of my old professors reached out. Oh, really? So this was a PR teacher. Okay. And she now works in San Diego, but she said one of her students said, oh, you should listen to this podcast. And she said, I knew I recognized the name, but I couldn't really remember why.

And then I realized that it was you. Oh, wonderful. You should have lunch with her. Yeah, I guess I'd have to go to San Diego. Because I've had several meals with Mr. Wood, my fifth grade teacher who turned my life around. Because I talked about him so much publicly that we reconnected. Well, I'd like to have lunch with my eighth grade teacher, Mr. Tornese. Oh.

Because I loved him so much. That's doable, I feel like. It might be. Is he still in Duluth? Yeah. My friend, Kirsten, who now works as an assistant principal in that school system, she's had lunch with him. Okay.

She could connect you with everybody. She could do a connection. What about the hot? Doctor. I mean, doctor. He wasn't a doctor. You've made him a doctor Covington

Yeah, he's gone I don't know where he is You'd love dinner with him though I'd love to have one And breakfast And breakfast at Cheryl's No, but this teacher Dr. Sweetser, shout out

It was 16 years ago She says it in the email And that freaked me out No, but this teacher, Dr. Sweetser, shout out. It was 16 years ago she says it in the email and that freaked me out. And she reminded me that I am a scholarly co-author. What does that mean? I have a published piece of work. Oh, wow. In public relations review. Kind of like my story about the bus. What story about the bus? The yellow limo that was published in the eighth grade, the creative writing magazine

that went out. Yeah. But this is a peer reviewed journal. Oh, from college. From college. Oh, what's the topic? Oh my God. Wow. What? I just barely, I don't really remember it, God, wow. What? I just barely, I don't really remember it, but it was PR practitioners use of social media tools and communication technology. That is pretty early for me to have been. You are groundbreaking.

Oh, my God. You've forgotten everything you've known because you're just now learning social media. I know. I have. Wow. All right. I have. Wow. All right. Well, look into Public Relations Review and you can find my scholarly work.

Scholarly work. Yeah. Wow. I think, though I'm not 100%, so I feel bad doing this, but I'm going to. I think Dr. Sweetser is responsible for the only B I had in college. Whoa. And now she's I had in college. Whoa. And now she's reaching out to you. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. She's like my manager at CBK. Maybe she's like, hey, I've been thinking over. I'm willing to go B plus. No, it was. Remember? Or maybe you don't. Of course you don't remember.

Why would you remember this? Although I do think I've talked about it a lot. It was an 89.5, I think. And I went in and met and asked if she could please round it up. And she wouldn't. And I don't remember 100% if it was her. But it was APR, teacher of mine. And I think it was her because she was tough.

She's a tough cookie. She's in the military. Okay. Yeah. Tough cookie. But anyway, I'm grateful for it because I needed this story. Yes, right. You needed some adversity.

I did. A, B. I don't know how you got through it. It was really, you can imagine. I mean, I failed classes in high school. Well, it's one thing if you're failing and you're getting Cs, but if you have a perfect record and then you have the— That is—it's like it's getting silver. It's like blowing a turn on the track. A 13-turn track, you did 12 perfect, you blow that third.

Yeah, and then it ruins your entire streak. Your whole lap time. Yeah. That's really bad. You're not a hero. No, but I am a scholarly author. You are. I'm calling you Dr. Padman.

Oh, my God. I will take it. All right. Well, I think that's all for Prochi. You know when they introduce people and they say Mr. and Mrs. So-and-so? What if they're both doctors and they say Dr. and Dr. Padman? Dr. and Dr. Maybe.

Because they probably wouldn't say Mrs. and Mr. if she was a doctor. But what if only one is a doctor? Mrs. No, Dr. You'd say Mr. and Dr. And Dr. Cheryl. Oh. Eden Cheryl. She's a doctor in damn good food.

Doctorate degree. Master in hash. Corned beef, that is. You should learn how to make it. I should. I really should. I'm going to do that right now okay

okay bye love you