Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Race to 35: Day 2 + Douglas NeJamie + Dre & Rachel

Episode Date: October 19, 2022

Monica and Liz are feeling "floopy" in episode 2 (of 10) of Race to 35. They discuss the previous nights' shots, the potentially deathly air bubble, substitute trays, and how they shouldn't be allowed to make purchases or decisions of any kind. They talk to Douglas NeJaime who is a professor of Law at Yale. Douglas specializes in parentage law and provides insight on what we deem legal parents in this country. Liz and Monica also talk to Dre and Rachel - a beautiful married couple who chose to use Dre's brother as their donor and sperm sample. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi everyone. Welcome to our second episode of Race to 35. So we've done two shots. So thank you guys if you are back with us, because I know we sent out some really crazy energy in the first episode, and we might have scared every single person off. And I hope we didn't. I think we weren't as crazy as we thought we were. When I listen back to the edit, I will hear it. But we were manic and we blacked out. Yeah. I don't remember much, but you were in full control because you gave me my shots. So that was the first night. And then last night we had our

night two of shots. You came to my house. Everyone will be happy to know I have purchased trays per Callie's recommendation. They have not arrived. So in the interim, I used picture frames. They were great. I like the picture frame so much. And I felt like Callie's advice was really helpful to pretend like you're a nurse. It's a game like Kelly's advice was really helpful to pretend like you're a nurse. It's a game. It's a game, except we made some mistakes. So I'm not going to lie. Like last night was a lot because first of all, my voice, this is what I sound like now. This is my hormonal voice. I know your voice, Your voice completely changed and you refuse to hear me. And when I say, I think you're just getting a cold or you're sick or something. And you say,

no, you feel fine. I feel fine. I mean, I feel fine physically. I don't feel fine physically, actually. But I think it's like the hormones. I don't think it's a cold. Yeah. I don't know what's going on, but I sound like this and I'm going to embrace it. I'm going to embrace it. Sexy voice. Sexy voice, Liz. So you gave me my shots yesterday and for some reason I had a conversation with someone at a dinner party who said that if there's air in the syringe even one little air bubble you can die that's what I was told scientifically from a person from friend. From a friend who's an actress. Who's not a doctor. Yeah. She's a stand-up comedian, which means that she knows. And so last night when you gave me my shot, not only did we realize that there would be maybe one bubble, but there was a big gap.

There was a huge. Huge air gap. Okay, because there's a step where you actually remove that air. And I did do it for mine, of course, because I'm selfish. No. No, what happened is we had the video playing. We did. And so we were going through each step with the video. But the problem is, and I'm not blaming you, but I'm blaming myself.

You didn't want to see the needle. Right. So you didn't take off the cap. Right. And that was the moment to push up the air. Got it. So we were like, okay, we'll deal with your needle after I'm done with my shot. Right.

So then I did mine and then we did yours and I totally forgot to get the air out. And then we thought you might die. I might die. You had to text your doctor and she's in Paris. She's in Paris. So we're like, it's too early for her. And then I got home. You told me not to Google.

I did a little bit. I just did. Because I thought I would find something reassuring. I did not. We always think that. That's why we go to Google. That's why we do it. But it's never reassuring.

I think I've read a lot about embolisms. And I was like, okay, this might happen. You know what I thought, though? I was like, if I die tonight, this is like so fun that I got to do this. And I've had a really great life. Like, I really made peace with my life. And then I went to the bathroom and I was bleeding. Yes.

So then I was like, this is it. And then I was texting you. I I was bleeding. Yes. So then I was like, this is it. And then I was texting you. I was like, oh my God. And also it was not the same color as like a normal period. It was very dark. And so that was scary too. And I was just like, I'm bleeding out. It's the air bubble.

Everything's bad's happening all at once. I'm going to die a bloody death. But then I texted you and I was like, I have my period question mark. And you were like, wait, our and I was like, I have my period? Question mark. And you were like, wait, our text exchange was like two dummies. Oh my gosh, should I read? I'm going to read some of it. This is so ridiculous.

Okay. So this is at 1033. Well, first of all, we were texting. Should we post? Like being so stupid. And then you were like, wait, I have my period. What is happening? And I was like, it was over and now it's back because we should tell people. So the way this works is you do, you start your period and then you call the doctor and you say, I've started my period. And then you go in and you start your first shots while you're on your period. So that is normal.

But the thing is, we've kind of tempted fate a little bit because we told our doctors, you know, we're doing this podcast and it's going to be really helpful to so many people. So you have to help us. And so you started your period way early and we were like, fuck, the whole point is that we could do this at the same time. Everything was lining up. And then your period started early. So you went to the doctor. You told them. And they said, no worries.

We'll put you on this hormone pill. And then you'll start when Monica starts. Okay. So you had started your period. But then you got put on the hormone pill. So that's why I was like, wait. But you just had it. But maybe you didn't finish because where does it

go I don't get it and where does it go what it's just been sitting around what does the hormone do makes it a little like closed yes it's a little pouch it's a ziploc that opens up automatically when it's time I said did the hormone pill stop your period? And you said, I have no idea. So weird. Googling, LOL. And I said, maybe it paused it. Also, there was nothing on Google about this. That was actually interesting to me because there were a lot of things about air bubbles and nothing about, not a lot about air freezing. Okay. Then I said, well, it's okay to be on your period because that's normally when you do it. You're so supportive. I was like, but it is kind of weird that it's back. Anyway, we just had this crazy back and forth.

And then throughout it, we were like, we don't know anything about the human body. We haven't learned anything in school. Then I was like, motherhood's going to be even worse than this. You have to put breast milk in bags and label them. And then you didn't know about that. I didn't know about that. It's new information, brand new information. I don't know.

And then I text everybody I know. My doctor, many texts about them, the period. You know, everyone responded in the morning. They were like, you're fine. Both are fine. Yeah. And also that it's really hard to screw up the shots. That's why they let you do it.

Yes. Which that brought me a lot of comfort. Same. And you said there are way dumber people. I know, I feel bad saying that. Which I know, we don't have to keep that in, but that also made me feel better. Because I feel like I'm the only person who's expected to do this. You know what I mean?

Yes. I just remember many people before me have pulled it off with the same level of information and skill. But I do have to say, if you have ADHD, it's very overwhelming. Your friend Molly is a therapist and she helped us last night. And she kind of helped me understand like the air bubble thing. Like, yeah, I'm going to kill myself. That's what I feel like all the time. I'm not going to die in a very profound way. It's going to be like, she had a marshmallow in her mouth and she forgot it was there and then it killed her. Like, it's like a really dumb or like walked into the train tracks

because she was DMing, you know, posting like a TikTok. It's going to be dumb. So I feel like the air bubble was like, this is how I die. It's like a dumb thing. Like, I don't want to see the needle. And then I forget the main step. Just take out the air. Because I was like, no, no, no. If it was that important, she would have reiterated. We was like, no, no, no. If it was that important, she would have reiterated. We're like going back in time, trying to figure out. And you don't have a sharps container yet, which is stressful. It's stressful. You're doubling. I'm doubling my sharps. Okay. So yesterday when we woke up, we kind of checked in with each other for a second. And how'd you feel yesterday? I felt fine. Yeah. Yeah, I felt great.

Totally normal. Did you have any bloating or anything? Not really. I had my little mark, but like I didn't have bloating. I didn't have nausea. I felt fine. I woke up super early. I was working.

I was writing. I got work done. Yeah. My voice sounded like this, but that's it. What about you? Yeah, yesterday I felt totally normal, but now in retrospect, when I'm looking back at yesterday, I did feel normal, but I did feel, I think a teeny bit manic. Me too. I did threaten a lot of people. Oh, that's good. I had a situation and then I made a lot of dramatic moves. Actually,

I was crazy. Yeah. Maybe not crazy, but just very driven by emotion, which makes me sound like I'm sexist when I say that. Why? No, we have to be honest. Yeah. I felt like I was definitely leading with emotion. Yeah. And I wasn't necessarily like thinking straight. Yeah. You know? I was doing all kinds of cleaning projects. I got very nasty. Oh. I have to make my space very clean. I set up our picture frame trays. I like needed everything to be in order.

I think because we had come off that chaotic evening. It was, yeah. That I was like, okay, I need some order. But now in retrospect, like I walked to a store twice, once to look for trays and then they didn't have any. So I went, well, exactly. There's a really cute home store down the street for me. And I was like, oh, I bet they have trays and we can still be cute and do eggs. We can be fashion and do eggs. So we're going to have hot trays. So I walked to this store, looked for trays. They didn't have

them. Came back. Three hours later, I went back to that store to buy a trash can that I saw that I liked. So that's a little. Sucks. I mean, little suss. I mean, it's cute. If that's you being manic, I was going to make a very big decision, actually. I'm directing this doc and I'm being threatened to be sued. And I was about to give up and let them censor me. And then finally in the afternoon, my lawyer called me and she was like, I'm a journalist. Like, I can't succumb and be censored. And it's insane kind of what's happening.

But it supports the thesis of the film that people are trying to silence the story. Like it's just important to keep going. But I was like, I'm done. At the end of the day, thank God, I kind of was like, what was I thinking kind of thing. So yeah, I mean, it was. We've been told not to make big decisions

and we both almost made big decisions. I almost bought a whole store. You did. So our friend Jess, Jess Rowland, you have to meet him. You'll love him. We did Monica and Jess together. Yeah. So Jess said, I think I should put a hold on your credit cards during this process. And I was like, oh, haha. And then the first thing I did was buy something. So I do think there's something to be said there. I use shopping as a coping mechanism a lot. Yeah.

Okay. Well, maybe we can let each other know when we're about to buy something. Oh. Over a certain price range. Okay. What is it? I mean, I wanted to buy a hat this morning. I really almost did.

Like a fedora. And I was like, what am I doing? I didn't buy it. I mean, I don't even live here. Why am I ordering hats? No, you can wear a hat in New York. I mean, I don't even live here. Why am I ordering hats? No, you can wear a hat in New York. I know, but then it's like bringing it back. It's all weird.

So where am I going? Nowhere. Oh my God, true. Okay, so that was yesterday. It's kind of interesting to look back on yesterday because if we had recorded yesterday, we would have been like, we're great. And we weren't.

That's scary, actually. So then, well, first of all, I woke up so tired and I can't sleep. We're doing this at nine o'clock. I couldn't sleep. I'm not able to sleep and I'm getting angry because I'm not drinking and normally that's the reason I can't sleep. So I'm like, I should be sleeping like a baby right now. And it's very frustrating that I'm not. I finally went to sleep like after 12. So then my alarm went off at eight and I was like, I'm too tired to wake up. And then, yeah, I felt immediately crazy. Weird. I felt weird. I guess I felt very PMS-y. Things were falling on the ground. Like I was really clumsy. The printer wasn't working. Like nothing was working.

Yes. Yes. Everything is a reminder of what's not working in your life yeah in a weird way again very pmsc not fragile but sensitive i guess yes i'm in this romantic thing that is so great and all of a sudden i was like this is all terror like i was just very morose and very nostalgic about it like as if it was already over not on the verge of crying but like a little bit yeah over nothing specific well yeah you know adding up well did you text him also we should delve a little bit into this because this is a fun piece of this journey yeah you're kind of in a relationship now all of a sudden i don't know i don't know if i can call it that okay i feel nervous okay we don't have to call it that

but since deciding to freeze your eggs and us starting, this romantic opportunity has kind of presented itself. Like romantic opportunity. And you're on this ride, but also, FYI, you can't have sex while you're freezing your eggs. So this is a challenge. It's so fun. So I started thinking this morning, I was like, I should just not see this person. I'm going to do something stupid on the hormones and I'm going to ruin it. Like, I know, I know it's kind of silly, but I do feel that way.

Okay. You're not. What do you think you're going to do? Like, you know, when you like start dating someone, like you kind of want to be on your best behavior, you know, and not that I want to be like cool girl, Liz, you do want to be like in control a little bit. Even yesterday with this whole legal situation, I was very confident about my decision, which was a pretty not good decision.

And so I'm just worried about other things. I'm going to fuck up with that. But whatever, if it happens, it happens. You should tell him. You should just say, hey, I already almost made a bad decision. And I'm nervous. You know, just be honest about it.

Yeah, that's a good point. Did you call him today? No. Okay. Another thing when you're well is this good advice or bad advice i was like if you're feeling if you're feeling self-conscious why not just make contact so you can have some reassurance that's a good point we have very opposite schedules too but he's recording like almost at night. And then I, we recorded.

But you're right. Also, I think if I said I'm a little nuts, I mean, he's been so understanding and so lovely, which is like, again, just like another reason that it's great and that I don't want to think it's great. I know, but you won't. Yeah, you're right. If this fucks it up, it wasn't meant to be. And it won't.

I really don't think it will. I'll hold on. Rob texted with me. Just make sure because it might be about. So Rob has COVID and so he can't be here for these recordings, which makes this all a little more interesting because now there's like tech stuff that I have to do. This is an example. Okay. So I'm reading this and I'm like, there's a cable I put there that connects you to your computer for zooming with P4. You'll just need to make sure the mic and speaker settings and zoom are set to the Zoom P4. And I just read that and

it's like the phone just exploded in my hand. Like I have no idea what this means. This is another language. On another day, I probably could understand it, but I can't today. That's a really good way to put how it feels. Because I was preparing for this interview and I was reading about LGBTQ law and I'm reading reading the words but i can't put them together and understand easily like i could if i really focus but just with my normal amount of focus it's like not going in oh my god what why are we doing this this is a horrible time for us to be interviewing people but also you know what we're pot pot committed. So this is it. So we're going to do it.

But it is interesting. Because what happens to you normally when you PMS? Good question. And the thing is, I also have my period now today. So I feel nauseous. For me, I get really bad cramps. And I want a specific kind of candy, Haribo candy, the watermelon ones,

two days before, and I'll eat the whole bag. And I have to have it. So I have cravings. And then, yeah, I feel loopy. And then I will sometimes look back and be like, oh, I made this rash decision. You make conclusions about things easily. What about you? Normally before my period, I am very irritable. Emotional, like, quick trigger on emotionality. But I'm not feeling that yet. I'm not feeling like I'm about to cry or like anything could push me over the edge emotionally. But I am feeling like I just don't have a handle on anything.

Like everything's just up in the air. I'm floopy. Yeah, floopy. Floopy. I feel floopy. I feel so floopy. Okay. I had an interesting revelation. Oh my God. I had for the first time in my entire life, a feeling that I've never had. I was driving home from the appointment and I was like, oh, I want to be pregnant. Oh,

I've had feelings of, oh, I really do want a kid or, oh, that's something I want, but not pregnancy. I've never gone there. I don't know why. It was something about maybe like being in the office and being there in the ultrasound, like all of that. I just was like, I want that. And I've never felt that before. Wow. That's so amazing. I was like kind of shocked by it, shook, as the kids say. But it was a good piece of information for me. You were doing this not knowing if you would even want kids.

Yeah, I don't really know. But now I think I do know. And that's kind of scary to say and believe because there's a sadness that would come if I don't have it. So I think that's sort of where I'm at. I think that's so exciting. It was very recently that I realized I wanted kids. And it was this incredible, it feels almost like a vision of sorts. It's not a thing of like, I want a piece of chocolate.

I mean, it's much more. Haribo watermelons. Yes. But it's like, it's something you can't really describe, right? Yeah. And it's this feeling of this is what I want and not knowing when it's going to happen, who it's going to happen with. There's a lot of unknowns, but knowing that you want it is both scary and exciting.

It is. And it gives me a little bit of an understanding of other people. Some people are kids when they have that light. They're young and they're like, I know I'm meant to be a mother. I know that. I have people in my life who are like that. I've never been like that. Logically, I understand wanting kids, but I didn't emotionally understand it for a long time. I have had glimmers of it, but now I feel like I'm there. Yeah. That's so exciting. Is that my body? Like what is happening? I mean, it might be a few things. Cause for me, it was turning 35 too.

I mean, it all kind of happened at the same time. And then I don't know if this happened to you in these appointments, which again, we haven't had that many, but where like you kind of feel special. They're like your eggs. You feel like these parts of you are kind of amazing and cared for. Again, there's no baby in there, but you kind of have to care about the ovaries more than you care about yourself. Like even when I got my period and I was doing my other podcast and I was like, I got to go to the clinic, my eggs, you know, and everyone was like, yes, you must go. We must end. And it was this thing where I was like on my way to the, in the Uber, holding my stomach. I was like, it's time, you know, again, thinking about it with a baby and with another person,

right? Like it adds all these layers. Once you get there, they're like, you know, they're looking in, they're telling you all these things about it. And it almost feels like a separate part of you that you maybe were never in touch with. Like I never thought about what my body can do in that way. I think exactly right. It's like, oh my gosh, our bodies are amazing.

And like what they can do. That is so funny. It's time, oh my gosh, our bodies are amazing. And like what they can do. That is so funny. It's time, gotta go. I'm announcing my period to a room full of men because my podcast is about masculinity. I mean, obviously there were so chill about it, but I was like, must. It is. You're right. There's something really freeing about having something to prioritize. I'm enjoying that. There's a fun thing happening on Friday that I was supposed to go to, and it was a sleepover. I was really excited about it, but then over the past couple days, I'm like, I can't go to that. That is too much. And I have to be by my medicines and I have to, like, yeah, my tray is going to be way too far away if I'm at the sleepover.

And you have to keep this medicine in the fridge. And I don't want to travel with it in an ice pack. Like I'm scared. It was freeing to be like, I can't go to that because it was something else to care for and it's more important. Yes. And people respect it. Yeah. And it was kind of rude. It was like last minute. I'm like, I can't go to this thing. And it's like probably going to fuck up some stuff for them. And the response was of course, totally get it. Get those eggs. Get those eggs. Take care of those little eggs.

We can't exercise. Like, I'm like always kind of thinking about the way I'm bending. Every little thing, I'm like, is this going to hurt my eggs? Imagine when there's a baby or like another person. And it's like so cool. It is cool. And terrifying. And then the breast milk.

The breast milk and the bags. Riding on the bags. Yeah. You're going to have to Google that. Do you want to talk about if you're going to date during this time? Yeah, let's. Okay. So you're dating, but not having sex.

And there's someone that you would like to set me up with. And we're not going to get into too much detail. I've said yes. And I think maybe this will be a good catalyst for me in dating as well, because now that my light is on from inside. Yeah. When we did Monica and Jess, we had an episode where we talked about your on light is off when you're walking around the world. Like you're not saying I'm open. Right. Your light's not on. And I was like, yeah, I got to turn that light on. And so I was practicing doing that during that time.

But that was like an external light. I was like trying to turn on and it wasn't happening the way I wanted it to. But now maybe the light is from inside and it's on. So maybe I'll be a little bit more proactive. I like that. So I said yes. And so we'll see. I'm definitely going to meet this person, but I'm just feeling a little kind of what you just said. Like, is this a good time for me to be meeting someone? I'm manic. Right. Not my best self.

Yes. I think you are. You're always your best self. But I think that again, I want to make sure I know when I'm manic and it's the overconfidence that I had yesterday that I wasn't manic and I was making a really good decision that scares me. I wonder if we'll ever be calm during this whole process. I can't believe it's only day two. I really didn't expect to feel this weird this quickly. But maybe we'll adjust to the heart. Maybe it's weird at the beginning. It's a shock. Yes, the system.

And then we'll be adjusted. Yeah. Also, the system. And then we'll be adjusted. Yeah. Also, I forgot. I forgot what I was going to say. I'm sure I always forget, but it's the hormones. Also. I have been blaming the hormones for so much, though. That's the fun thing.

That's why you have kids, by the way. That's what I've been told. I mean, again, can't go to this, can't do that, can't show up. Sorry for that typo. It was my hormones. Yes. Sorry I didn't reply to your text for five months. It's the kids.

So we can use our eggs. We have a right. Yeah, we sure do. Have you ever had any revelations or anything? I feel like I wrote something yesterday that we had to talk about. Liz, sexy voice, question mark. Do you want kids, question mark. Okay, we talked about it. Which we did. Oh, you said that you recently realized you wanted

kids and there was a way in. Yes. For me, I had that light on when I was like a little kid, but then I also wonder if it was just also not an option not to have kids, right? Society. Yeah. Society. And just that's what you do. So it was a weird bell curve or inverted bell curve, I guess, whatever. The younger I was, the more I wanted kids. And then the older I got, the less I wanted kids. Because I think the more I knew. And you see a lot of people not fail at it, but be kind of miserable.

Exactly. Have kids with a difficult person. And, you know, I dated a divorce person who was like, never get a divorce and never had kids with a, you know. Yeah. And as a woman, you realize, holy crap. I mean, especially once I moved to America because I'm Canadian and in Canada, there's a lot more of a social safety net.

Men are much more involved. The US is pretty scary. And I specialize and read research about gender, the gap in the home and how much you can just get resentful and it can ruin your relationship, right? There's so many sort of layers. And then the lean in model to me always was just gave me hives. I was like, the Sheryl Sandberg lean in, like this sort of idea of you can have it all to me felt like the worst version

of my life because I care about my career and I care about my work, but I didn't see a world where unless I'm a bajillionaire and I can hire a lot of people to help me, how I could possibly maintain my full self in my purpose in life and be a mom. I grew up in a lot of dysfunction. And so I have a lot of issues with depression and anxiety. And I've been doing therapy for a while, but I started doing EMDR therapy a couple months ago. If anyone is struggling

with feelings of self-hatred and self-disgust, because if you're a child and if you were neglected or abused, what ends up happening is that you don't stop loving your parent, you stop loving yourself. And so it creates a lot of issues with how you view yourself. And I just held onto that for so long. And in talk therapy, I would do a lot of like, love yourself and love your inner child. But I literally would like eye roll inside my head because I didn't love her. Like I really didn't, even though I would say it, it felt like one of those positive affirmations that doesn't actually register. And so EMDR, if you're dealing with that, for me and for many people, it was extremely helpful because it literally creates new neural pathways. I really

just highly recommend it. And so for me, it was very quickly. One of the biggest changes is that I suddenly have unconditional love from my childhood self. That's so beautiful. It's so new. It's so new. And it's this light too. I associate her with light instead of this darkness because I feel comfortable with her. I kind of have her in my backpack all the time. I feel like I could be a good mom now because before I was just like, I'm going to be horrible because I'm horrible to her. It was more about me being a bad mom, which I know a lot. I mean, look, our society hates bad moms. Even that label is so fucked. It's so fucked. The standard is so high.

And moms are such heroes. I mean, they do, even when they're making mistakes, moms are such heroes. I mean, they do, even when they're making mistakes, which every single person does. They're actual superheroes. Like I kind of can't wrap my head around, especially now when I'm like looking back at my mom and all my mom friends. I have so many, you know, my pod of moms. I'm just in awe. It's so beautiful. It's so incredible. And there is just no such thing. I mean, look, there are hard circumstances to grow up in. Like I do think some parents, maybe they're not ready. Maybe they're forced to have kids. Like there's a lot of reasons. I mean, that's another we'll get into, I'm sure, over the course of this show, but mistakes are going to happen and it's okay. Yeah. You know, what's so interesting is that this kind of leads into the one piece of information I

remember from the research I did this morning is that our guest is about LGBTQ parenting and laws and all that stuff. And did you know that half of heterosexual parents' pregnancies are by accident? And LGBTQ parents, one of the reasons why there's some studies that show that their kids do really well and are happy and happier in some cases is because most LGBTQ parents really want to be parents. Exactly. It's an active choice, whereas for a lot of heterosexual couples, it just kind of, again, happens, and sometimes it's a positive surprise. Sometimes they're not so ready. Sometimes they're in states where they're forced to, even when they don't want to.

100%. No, this is so relevant because, yeah, they're ready. They know, and they're excited about it and open. Stay tuned for more, if you dare. Now a word from our sponsor, BetterHelp. We love BetterHelp. Oh, the best. Because we believe in therapy.

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So, yes, today we have a professor from Yale Law, which is very exciting as a unophile. Are you a unophile? Do you like fancy schools? I love fancy schools. Okay. His name is Douglas Nijame. He specializes in parentage law, which is the legal parent-child relationship for unmarried same-sex non-biological parents. He specializes in that. And it's crazy because you think, hello, obvious, your mom is your mom. Yeah. Queer parents often have to adopt their own children.

Yes. So this is very exciting and we're going to get into it. So please enjoy. We're both feeling floopy, just so you know. So this might be a floopy interview. No, it's okay. Don't worry about it. We're freezing our eggs. And this is of course how this episode starts because we don't know what we're doing. And Rob, our tech master has COVID, so could not be here. Well, we are so grateful to have you. Thank you so much for joining us. Great to be here. You come to us via Dove Fox. He is awesome.

We had him on armchair and he kind of blew us away. We were so intrigued. And when we decided we were going to do this podcast, he was a natural ask for me of who's good in this field? Who can help us?

And he recommended you. Great. You wanted to talk about the parent-child relationship, recognition and its intersection with assisted reproduction. Absolutely. Anything in this realm, and especially since you are so focused on minority relationships, we think that's something that no one is thinking about or covering, and we just want to hear about it. So maybe you could start by telling us kind of the evolution of what has been recognized as parents. So it's interesting because we live in a time, I think, where people just assume that genetics or biology equals parenthood, and they treat that like it's an age-old thing. But in fact, it's a pretty modern

invention. So for most of our nation's history, parentage, which is the legal parent-child relationship, was linked to marriage, not to the biology. So when a married woman gave birth to a child and her husband were treated as legal parents, and if an unmarried woman gave birth to a child, that child was what the law called illegitimate and didn't have a legal parent-child relationship. Eventually, we treated the mother, the woman who gave birth, as having custodial responsibility for the child. But it wasn't really until the second half of the 20th century that we really began to treat the biological father as having a legal parent-child relationship, meaning rights to custody, but also an obligation to support the child. And so it's a pretty recent phenomenon

that we actually think all children have a legal parent-child relationship and that primarily would be with their biological parents. And that's why children who are illegitimate would be put into these homes where they were even kind of turned into workers, right? Weren't these around the world kind of different ways of dealing with these children? And they were kind of the property of the state, right? I mean, if you look back at actions in the 18th and 19th century, the local governments would actually try to get money from married men who they thought were the biological fathers of the children. But it wasn't to treat them as fathers. It was basically to relieve the government of support for the children. And of course, there's also a long history of adoption in which

many of the children who were placed for adoption in the 20th century were, quote, illegitimate children. And because of the stigma of illegitimacy and of unmarried women having children, that was considered the desirable option was to place the child for adoption. So one reason there's a lot fewer adoptions in the US today, one, because of access to contraception and abortion, which obviously is now completely thrown into jeopardy. And two, because of the reduced stigma for non-marital pregnancy, birth, and child rearing.

So more people now have children outside of marriage and raise those children outside of marriage. So one thing today, like in my own work, marriage still often creates a line based on who is a parent and who isn't. And given that illegitimacy no longer has the same stigma and legal penalty, I use the term non-marital child or non-marital birth, not illegitimacy. In my view, marriage shouldn't be doing as much work in deciding who is a legal parent. And so we should have laws that are neutral as to marital status, but we don't in most states.

Yeah. What states do? In every state in the country, a non-marital child has a legal parent-child relationship with his or her biological parents if the child was born through sexual procreation. Having said that, a man who is the biological father of a non-marital child is not automatically the parent. He has to actually do something. And in most states, that's what's called an acknowledgement of paternity. So in the hospital, the mother will be given paperwork that includes this acknowledgement of paternity. And if she and the biological father sign it, that establishes him as a parent. But for a lot of non-marital children, they don't

have an established legal father because no one has signed the acknowledgement. And the only way for an unmarried father to get on a child's birth certificate is to sign the acknowledgement, unless they have a court order, which most people are not going to court and getting judgments. So that's just a caveat on that. But then the real distinctions based on marital status tend to be around assisted reproduction. Now, of course, we have a lot more people having children through assisted reproduction. And so when people have a child through assisted reproduction, and they use donor egg or donor sperm. In a lot of states, not California, where you are, not Connecticut, where I am, but in a lot of states, the status

of the non-biological parent can turn on whether they're married or not. So if a married woman gives birth and let's say they use donor sperm, in pretty much every state, her spouse, whether that's a man or a woman, should be treated as a legal parent of that child. They consented to the assisted reproduction. Now, I say pretty much because recently the Idaho Supreme Court has not given such recognition to a married same-sex couple in that state, but generally that's the case. But if she's unmarried, in a lot of states, her partner, even if that person consented to the assisted reproduction with the intent to be a parent of the child and they're going to raise the child together, her partner, whether that's a man or if someone has used their eggs and used a donor and then two years later meets a partner and gets married, they would have to adopt that child? The presumption that the person married to the birth parent is a parent only applies if you

have the child essentially while you're married to the person. Got it. Any other person would technically be categorized as a step parent and they have to adopt the child. And so there's a lot of people around the country adopting their own children. They have children together, but they have to then go into court and do an adoption. And it's true for same-sex couples, basically everywhere they're doing this, even if the laws are protective, people are doing it because they're worried that even if they're in California, that if they go to Texas, Texas isn't going to treat them as a parent. But it's also true for different sex couples who are

unmarried and have a child through assisted reproduction. Another wrinkle is that some people will be able to use their own eggs, but someone else will carry the pregnancy in a, let's say, a gestational surrogacy. Some people will use donor eggs, but carry the pregnancy. And that's actually something that leads to issues as well. So basically, in every state, the woman who gives birth is treated as a legal parent. And most states have said, even if that's with donor eggs, provided that there's no conflict, the donor isn't stepping forward to say, I'm a parent. The issues arise, on the other hand, when there's a woman who's serving as a gestational surrogate who gives birth to the child. In Michigan, for instance, the woman who gives

birth is always the legal parent. So the surrogate would be technically the legal parent. Correct. And then she would have to relinquish her rights in a court proceeding, and the intended parents would have to adopt. And what's worse is that if the woman who acts as the surrogate is married, her husband is also presumed then to be the parent. Oh my God. And has it ever happened that they don't relinquish the rights? The surrogate goes like, I want to keep the baby. They go rogue?

Very rarely. If you read news accounts, it seems like it happens more often. But most surrogacies go off without a hitch. But it is a huge cost and inconvenience to have to actually go into court and not be able to be treated as a parent of your child when your child's born. Especially at that time. Hold on. Sorry. Of course, this plug isn't working, but hold on. No, wait, it's probably the point. Okay. Jesus.

Oh, my God. Everyone missed the beginning of this because I wasn't recording, but we had Professor Douglas just sitting while we tried to get the Zoom working for 10 minutes. I mean, it's so embarrassing. Could you hear us the whole time? Yeah. Okay, great. the whole time? Yeah. But at that tender time when you have this newborn and then you're also like in court, how are people doing this? Well, and there's frankly just a lot of people who never adopt their child because they either don't know they need to or it's not the top of people's list when they're trying to deal with a newborn. It's also expensive. One of the things in your

research, the way that it can impact LGBTQ couples or couples of color, that they have to do a background check. They have to look into all these different things. And we criminalize Black people way more than white people in this country. So there's all kinds of different vulnerabilities that can add so many layers that make it then harder, right, for LGBTQ parents of color to actually be able to be parents. So Connecticut just went from being what I took to be a state with very bad law to a state with very good law because we work to pass a parentage law here that allows non-biological parents who use assisted reproduction, including in same-sex couples, to sign an acknowledgement of parentage.

We changed our acknowledgement of paternity to acknowledgement of parentage so they can sign that in the hospital to establish parentage. The folks that we had testify in support of the bill were mostly women of color who are in same-sex couples and who have children together already, but did not do an adoption and had called the probate court about an adoption and were told, yeah, here's attorneys you can call. It's going to be about $3,000. It's going to take six months. And so a lot of people will say to me, well, if they're really a parent, they should adopt the child. But one, a lot of people aren't going to do that. Two, it's not good for the child because the child should have a legally secure relationship with the person parenting them. And three, it still comes from an assumption that biology is everything.

And for me, the laws should actually track people's actual families. And if people are forming families in this way, then it's really critical that they and their children are legally protected. And so I'm convinced that lots of white and upper income same-sex couples in Connecticut were just fine adopting their children. But if we care about the true diversity of families in the state, that's not sufficient. Yeah. And $3,000 on top of everything you've done and maybe surrogacy, even just giving birth is so expensive. I don't think people necessarily know that like it's expensive to have a child. And if you add $3,000 on top of all the expenses you're paying, diapers, this, that I could totally see being like, we don't have the money for that right

now. It needs to go to something more important, pressing. And some people won't do it just out of principle. Like it's deeply offensive to have social workers come into your house and decide whether you're fit to adopt your own child. Yes. Again, Black mothers disproportionately get told that they're not equipped. Disabled mothers, right? There's all kinds of discrimination that's embedded in the system, which then gets worse for those couples. That's the thing. I feel like in all of these episodes, you just see it filter into every single aspect of life that there's discrimination and inequality. And motherhood is such a different experience depending on your zip code. Also, assisted reproduction is not inexpensive. You know, insurance coverage varies.

A lot of people think that same-sex couples are just all having children through assisted reproduction. But in fact, the majority of children being raised by same-sex couples still in the US are children who were conceived in a heterosexual relationship. So we had a family testify. They've been raising their child together since he was three. He's now 15. And it's one of the women's biological child from a previous relationship, but she's been with her same-sex partner for more than a decade, and they both parent this child. And if you're just doing laws that affect assisted reproduction, you're not capturing that relationship. It's important to

have other kinds of laws that actually recognize people as parents based on the fact that they're parenting the child. The Connecticut now will have that law for the first time, but there's still many states that don't have laws like that. I love that too, because it also makes the idea of being a parent rooted in the behavior, not just that you have that privilege just because, again, you biologically are tied to that child, but because you are parenting that child,

right, that's what a parent should be. This is the question I'm most interested in. I think that this is true as a sort of scientific and social science matter, and it should be true as a legal matter. And it's true in our own lives is that parenting is a practice. It's not a status. And there are too many court decisions around the country in which biological parents basically get trump cards over other people when, in fact, the person who's been parenting the child is not their biological parent. But that's the parent-child relationship we should protect. We don't do it enough. This gets tricky, right? A counter-argument, I guess, could be what if you have a... Well,

we've spilled all over ourselves. On brand. Let's take a heterosexual relationship. Husband and wife has a kid, and then they get get divorced and the wife gets remarried. Then do we have three parents? And I bet the biological father often would be like, no, no, no, I'm the father. Yes. So you're totally right. This I see as the sort of next big set of issues. The Connecticut law is mentioning it includes a provision that allows a court to recognize

more than two parents for a child. If not doing so would be detrimental to the child. California actually pioneered that law a few years ago. That law in California came into existence because there was a woman who was in a domestic partnership with another woman. They were sort of on and off again. She had a sexual relationship with a man. She had a baby with that man. He moved to, I think, Oklahoma, maybe. She got together with a different guy when she broke up with the same-sex partner. They ended up getting into a fight where they stabbed each other. There were drugs being used in front of the kids. Basically, the court was in a position

where it wanted to say, father and same sex spouse, non bio parent should be both treated as parents because they're the most stable parental influences for this child. But the court said, I can't do that under California law, because you can't disestablish a birth mother's parentage. So the California legislature passed a law that allows a child to have more than two parents. There's a case a couple years ago where a woman had a sexual relationship with a man that she worked with, but she was married to another man. She told her husband about it. She had the child. All three of them were contributing to the child's care, supporting the child who had autism. And so there were lots of medical and educational bills. But eventually, the married couple decided they

didn't want the bio father in the picture anymore. And the California Court of Appeals said, no, this child has two fathers. All three of you now under this law are parents of this child. So there are going to be situations. In my own research, I look at other states that don't have these laws, but nonetheless have doctrines that basically allow a court to recognize someone as having parental rights, even if they're not a legal parent. In Kentucky, there's a law called de facto custodian. So if you've been the primary caregiver and social supporter of the child for the last year, you are a de facto custodian. The child's over three for six months if the child's under three. And that gives you a right to seek custody. And Kentucky is a place that's been hard hit by the opioid epidemic. There are a lot of

children being raised not by biological parents. A law like that allows a court to treat, let's say, grandmother's been raising the kid as a parent, as having custodial rights, but without terminating the rights of the biological parents. So for me, multi-parent recognition actually means less state intervention into marginalized families because we don't have to terminate parental rights. It allows us to keep a child in the home that they're in without removing them to state custody or foster care with strangers. Some people who are caring for their kids might not be able to be licensed as foster

parents because they have a criminal record or they've had child welfare involvement before. So I think it actually can help families keep in stable arrangements without having more state intervention. But you're right. Some biological parents are going to say, I did not consent to this person being a parent of my child. And I think there's going to be hard cases on that. But I guess my view is the child should come first. And so part of what matters is, has this child formed a real parental relationship with this person? And what do we mean by consent that the bio father consented?

If you sort of knew it was happening and you didn't do anything, then I think you consented to it. But again, I think it goes to the way in which we define parenthood from the outset. Exactly. From the child's perspective too, right? Well, that's the thing.

I'm almost like we should have the kids weigh in, but then we don't give kids any rights in this country at all. Do they have rights? Isn't there kind of this movement to have a child bill of rights? I know in Quebec, there's a lot of pushes for that basically to create even when it comes to adoption, when it comes to all kinds of different things, starting from a position of the welfare of the child, as opposed to, again, what rights the parents have or what rights the adults have. And one of those things is realizing, to your point, that we have this idea of the nuclear family and that a mom and a dad, that's the secure thing.

But often it looks very different. It can look like community care and keeping the child in an environment that's safe for them might not look like that traditional idea of what it is. Yeah. I mean, well, I'll just say Canadian law is very good on this stuff. Canada before the U.S. had decisions recognizing more than two parents for a child and also have recognized children being raised in polyamorous families. Canada is also a signatory to the U.N UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. The U.S. is one of the only jurisdictions that not. Really? Oh my God. Why not? We have a really strong parental rights constitutional tradition and conservatives don't want to give

that up. And you see it in the anti-CRT and anti-trans kids legislation, because we have such a parental rights tradition, we one, are loathe to say children have, quote, real rights. And two, we don't structure our law as just about the best interest of the child. So part of my project has been, well, we can still have it be about the status of an adult as a parent, but what would it mean to have it be child-centered? But for parentage, it's very rarely that that would be a best interest of the child's determination. That being said, there are states and more doing this.

Courts must consider a child's wishes when the child is of a certain age in a custody proceeding. And in some of these parentage proceedings, the court will take the child's perspective into account. They're not required to, though. Oh, it's so fascinating. I've heard that in Canada, they don't allow surrogacy. It's that you can't get paid, right? You can

only do it as a gift. So the U.S. is by far one of the most permissive and regulated jurisdictions for assisted reproduction, including surrogacy. I think that's developed in that way for a variety of reasons. One is that we don't have national healthcare. We don't have a gatekeeper that was saying you can't do certain things. It's also why we were way ahead of the rest of the world on LGBTQ families, because it didn't matter that the government didn't want to treat lesbians as having access to families. There were gray and black markets for sperm in the 70s and 80s. And then there were willing providers in the Bay Area, for instance, that started helping lesbians have families

together. And when they broke up, courts had to deal with it. Whereas still in many European countries, a lesbian couple cannot go to the National Health Service and use donor sperm to have a family. Really? What countries? France, Germany. Really? They seem so progressive. Not on this. And interestingly, I mean, I was saying to you, my view is having to adopt your own child is an injury

and we should allow you have other forms of recognition. The European Court of Human Rights and the domestic courts of France and Germany and Italy, for instance, have said, no, the only thing you have a right to if you have a kid together is access to adoption. That's your only remedy. And that was a big deal. For a while, the courts were fine with non-biological parents and same sex couples not having rights. And surrogacy in those jurisdictions is generally prohibited and

criminalized. So the European courts are getting a lot of cases in which same-sex couple goes to the US, has a child through surrogacy. California court issues a judgment saying the two men are the parents of the child, but they go back to Italy or France and the courts there say, no, you're not the parents of the child. So then there's a question of what happens to that kid? Many of the jurisdictions are providing some way for the family to stay together and the parents eventually to get of the child. So then there's a question of what happens to that kid. Many of the jurisdictions are providing some way for the family to stay together and the parents eventually to get recognition. But there was an Italian case that went up to the European Court of Human Rights not that long ago,

in which it was a different sex couple. And the child was eventually placed into foster care. Neither intended parent was genetically related to the child, and they had no claim. The child was adopted by someone else. So the U.S. has become a place where we have a lot more law recognizing surrogacy and recognize the intended parents as the legal parents. It's not true everywhere, but it's true in more places than not. Wow. This is the first time I've ever heard a positive thing about America not having health care. I know, I love this. It's like the only positive still over. We like this. We like to, there's some things to be proud of. We have a long way to go. Parentage is definitely a place where the U.S. has been trailblazing in some ways. And Canada does have altruistic surrogacy or uncompensated surrogacy. There are some jurisdictions in the U.S. that have done that.

The critique of that is that why should women be doing things traditionally women have been forced to do uncompensated? It's labor. They're doing it for work. And so why should it not be commercialized? Exactly. It's a lot of work. The most, I would say. Wow. This is all very interesting. What made you get into this field? So I was working on LGBTQ equality questions. And so originally, relationship recognition for same-sex couples was a big issue, but I just got much more interested in parent-child relationship. That led me then into this whole morass of state parentage laws, which were really just fascinating to me, but also crazy making and wanting to be able to do something that could be helpful on that front. And that led me to actually

get really interested in the question of why do we privilege genetics so much? I mean, that's like the question, right? Like what is running the show and nurture versus nature and all of that stuff. And the obsession, you know, when you think about those Maury episodes about who's the dad. Yeah. And the cultural obsession with is he the father? Right. And then it's like whether she hates him or likes him or he's this deadbeat. Now he's the dad. And I don't know if we obsess about that in Canada. I don't know if it's like as important. Well, I actually wonder if it's tied into, of course, I'm going to take it here, a patriarchal, male-centered masculinity thing. Like that's when you brought up the cases. I just know so many men, unfortunately, who would be

like, that's my kid. And you better not make that stepdad the father. Traditionally, we also had a property-based notion of children, and it was father's property. And women were their property too. Exactly, which we call coverture, which was that women's status was just derivative of their husband. And so he had dominion over his wife and his children, and he had an economic interest in the children. That is also what justified him having custody. We used to have what's called a tender years doctrine. So the woman could get custody of a child, quote, of tender years, which was basically a child that wasn't going to be income producing.

Oh, my God. But a man had the custodial right over children who weren't of, quote, tender years. And so there is that notion in our law. And I still think we do see some of it in which there's an idea of it's my child. I mean, when we talk about parenting as a practice, the thing we're mean is like, who's the person that's changing diapers and getting the kid to sleep and taking the kid to school and doing all these things. And that hasn't been how we think about fatherhood traditionally. And so there's pressure on this concept of what is fatherhood. And I think even in the Maury stuff, the idea of saying, oh, you're the father is like,

you know, you have support, you have a financial opportunity. And our government has taken that position as well. The forms that I mentioned, the acknowledgements of paternity, I mean, I've tried to turn them into a force for good to acknowledge their parentage, but they originated with the federal government wanting to essentially privatize support for non-marital children by saying the government shouldn't have to give benefits to mothers. And instead, we should get men on the hook so because of federal mandates, the state is required, if there's no father established for that child, to file a petition to establish paternity in order to get a child support order. And that child support, a large part of it is not going to go to the child or the mother. It's going to go to the state, to the government, to reimburse them for the benefits that they've given. So we just have this view that men are

responsible financially, that's all, for the children, and the state is not responsible. I mean, and that's a very U.S. thing. And then we demonize the welfare queen, right? Like in the 1980s, particularly Black women who need that aid and then sort of marginalize them further. Right. And we also try to find all sorts of ways to disqualify them from having access to the aid. So in the 60s and 70s, there were government policies that if the mother was cohabiting with another man, she could not qualify for benefits because there was, quote, a man in the house and he should be responsible. So I actually think some of what I do is a double-edged sword because I'm saying there should be more law allowing us to treat people as parents.

But some government actors are going to use that to say, yeah, more people to go after for child support. Yeah, it's true. It's a fine balance. Oh, wow. People aren't thinking about this, and I never have until we started down this journey, because if you grow up in a privileged house,

like I did and you did, you're just not thinking about what it takes to be labeled a parent. So I'm really glad that you talked to us about it and shared your insight. I love nerding out on parentage. Parentage? Parentage. We had to Google how to say it before you came on. I hope you didn't hear that part.

Parentage. I'm saying it right. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And hopefully we'll talk soon. Keep doing your good work. I will.

We appreciate you. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Stay tuned for more If You Dare. We are supported by Parallel. Parallel is the first and only OBGYN-founded vitamin offering

targeted vitamin routines specifically formulated for each unique stage of a woman's hormonal life. I love this. I went on their website and was looking when I was deciding what to order, and they have really, really targeted vitamins. There's like basically how to maximize your body if you have PCOS, which I thought was so helpful. There's an egg freezing pack. Wow. Which is perfect. I mean, it's amazing. Really perfect. And we talk so much on this show about like, what can we do? What can we do? What can we do? And this is something in your hands. Yeah. I felt so stressed trying to figure out which vitamins to take as it pertains to egg freezing. And sometimes it can feel like expensive to have to buy a whole new tray of

vitamins that you might not use after that. So it's great to just use it when you do your egg freezing and then you're done. And then when we finish the egg freezing process, I plan to switch their Women's Daily Vitamin Trio. I don't know about you, Monica, but it's essentially all the vitamins that you need in one little pack that's been meticulously pieced together by Parallel's founding doctors. Yeah. I love that it's doctor formulated because I can trust it. But with the egg freezing one, there's antioxidants, added omegas, iron, and a full spectrum multivitamins. So you really are getting everything you need. Exclusively for Race to 35 listeners, Parallel is offering 15% off your first three months of Parallel with code RACE15.

Head to Parallel.co. And if you don't love it, you can cancel anytime and there's a 30-day money-back guarantee. Wow. That was so insightful. Yeah. I didn't know anything about anything. Also, we spilled all over ourselves. We did. I have a big coffee stain. What a mess. I thought that was good because we got an expert in, we got to learn from the professor. And next we are going to talk a little bit more casually to a really awesome couple, Dre and Rachel. They have a really interesting fertility story that kind of blew us out of the water. And so we're going to jump into that. Let's hop in. Hi, guys. Hi. Oh, my

gosh. Thank you so much for chatting with us. Of course. So we have Rachel and we have Dre. Yes, I'm Dre. So I was introduced by a friend and she said, you guys have a very cool fertility story. And when she explained it, I was like, yes, we need to talk about it because everyone's having their isolated experiences. And when we're thinking about options, you don't know what they are. You know, you don't have all the access. And so that's sort of the point of the show is let's just share some stories and talk about it. So do you guys kind of want to jump in on everything? Yeah, actually, to prepare for this conversation, I got out our kids' baby books. There's a page in here, Our Path to You.

So we read that, which gives this really sweet synopsis. So are you into me reading that aloud now? Yes, absolutely. We have two kiddos now. We have Francis and Alder, and Alder is our eldest child. So this is the story in Alder's baby book. At the outset of our courtship, I knew mama and I would make a family. A vision of you became clear in my mind right at the start, but getting to you was no small endeavor. We started with family meetings

to get your donor on board, met with a wonderful lawyer who helps families like ours and enlisted a conception doula. Our hearts broke when our first pregnancies didn't work out, but we were just more certainly called to make a family and continue to prepare our body, home, and spirit for you. We prayed, we wrote, we researched, and we tried until we finally succeeded. The God has blessed our January conception date at a beautiful Airbnb rental in Berkeley, California. We knew you were conceived just nine or ten days later,

and mommy and mama went absolutely nuts getting ready for you. One of our favorite experiences was listening to your heartbeat on the monitor and seeing ultrasound photos of you growing healthy and strong until it was time to arrive. Oh, I love that. Liz is going to cry. She cries a lot. I was just going to say it and be like, don't. I like held it in. My tear ducts are sealed. I know. As soon as I read it, we were both like teared up, you know, just taken right back into that experience and that vulnerability and that hopefulness and just what a long emotional journey it was. I mean, it's funny because we were just talking about how there's a lot of logistics that are involved just in egg freezing period.

And with what you described, there's so many steps that can almost feel not emotional, right? The lawyer and that paperwork and those decisions. And with egg freezing, for me, remembering the why and who I'm going to be writing this book for or telling this story to. Yeah, without a doubt. And I think, as Rachel said, we had been friends for a long time before we fell in love. So we've been friends for about a decade. Oh, wow. So it kind of made it a little bit easier to accelerate some of those

next steps. Although folks of our ilk are a little tempted to do that regardless. Like she said, we knew that we wanted to make a family incidentally we had both sort of had in the back of our minds and in our hearts that perhaps we would use the sample as we call it that's the parlance of this arrangement of one of my brothers we actually started with both of my brothers so I'm the oldest oldest of five. And as Rachel said in that story, you know, family therapy was really important. So we had mediated sessions where we talked about what will this mean? One of them was partnered and they eventually married, but the other was still single. How will you incorporate this and what will this feel like as you progress? And

also, how can we really know? When you go into this arrangement, you're signing up so fully for the unknown. And actually, Liz, to your point, that's why the boring stuff becomes actually so nice because it's like, I know the law. I can sign this paperwork and check this box. And what a nice thing to have one known thing. You're right. That's such a good way of putting it. Those things, you can ground it into earth somehow. Yeah. A little bit of control. Yeah, that's right. Rachel mentioned a fertility doula. So when we first got started, we were using both of my brother's samples. And at one day we would use one and the other day

we would use another. So it was going to be a bit of a crapshoot as to who was going to be biologically the one that facilitated this wonderful child. Then in the course of that, what was interesting and really all part of the experience is that one of the brothers and his partner decided actually after entering this a bit, we want to bow out. And that was honestly such useful information because you definitely want to know at that point before the babies conceive. But also we are all very intentional sort of as a sibling group and with the married ends, we call them the dark hairs because all of them have darker hair than the rest of us, but we've all blended so well. And so we were able to have even more growth in our

relationship, right? They have their anxiety about sharing with us that they wanted to bow out. And then we were able to receive that and reassure them. But my younger brother, he was still all in. He's the baby of the family. And incidentally, we are very alike. We look extremely alike. Wow. Well, they all look alike.

He just got married. And when I gave a toast, I talked about the amazing gift of seeing his face in my children's faces and how remarkable it is when Alder will make a certain expression. You can just see that there back when he was a baby. So it's just really sweet having that connectivity, but it also brings a lot of complexity. So like with the lawyer, with the adoption process, right. It was super important to both of us that in a legal, really clear way, he had absolutely no parental claims. Right. And it's not because I felt one day he would try, you know, to have gone with the children. He's actually quite clear on I'm stoked to be an uncle and I love when I get in my car and go home. But we did therapy and we worked with a lawyer to make

those boundaries super clear. And that was so important to me. Now, OK. Oh, my gosh. I have so many questions. One, how did you two get to the point? There's all these options you can do a sperm bank. There's just options on the table. So what brought you guys to, I think it should be in the family? So I think I always sort of held that dream in my heart, knowing that if I was going to have a family would likely be with someone who is also biologically female. And so I knew that we'd have to get sperm from somewhere that the likelihood that I'd be the one carrying is pretty high because I kind of wanted that experience and mistakenly thought it would be easy. But then as Dre and I were exploring how to grow into our family, you know,

we looked at it, right? Like we looked at the donor listings, we looked at biological descriptions, we looked at our options, which clinics were available. But really what just felt right was she has such great siblings and they have such great real relationship that we knew we could ask and explore the possibility. And I really was hoping that we could get some of her little curls and freckles in the mix. And also so that it kind of obscures that I was the parent that carried. It doesn't make it easy for people to sort of look at our family and make a determination about whose kids the kids really are. You know, we really wanted to make a family that we're the family. We're both the moms and it really brings a little

bit of both of our physical features. Yeah. Just biologically, you have DNA from both sides coming in. And to also say, you know, we want to make clear that while this biological component was exciting and interesting for us, we have actually come to see that that's almost the least relevant component relative to being parents. Everything that comes post is really the earth shattering stuff. Although of course, conception is too. But the point is, particularly queer people that proceed down a path that is not, you know, both partners having biological genetic material. These folks are obviously still entirely families just in the way that we are. And it is absolutely not necessary to create that such a fundamental parental bond. So we really want to make clear that we love it. It was exciting for us. Absolutely not fundamental or central to creating a family, but fundamental and central to creating our family.

I'm not actually very privy to all the steps that one would go through, Liz and Monica, in your situation, but I know that they are considerable. And that will always be the through line through parenting as well, which I know you're aware of. Yeah, we keep calling it a rehearsal. Yeah, it's our rehearsal. And it really is coming with a lot of lessons. And I think the way you're talking about parenting is a more realistic view on parenting, that it starts when the baby is delivered rather than at conception. In the same way that we think about marriage right we think about congratulations you got married and it's like no no now is when the work starts like can you stay married and I think

that because I'm the women's studies major I have to talk about queering parenthood because I think that you know I have to use that term bring it on on. I just think queer families, queer people offer a really valuable perspective on everything. And I think on parenthood, like what you just said is super interesting, right? What if we thought about parenting as a behavior, as an action, or as something that you kind of practice as opposed to something that you just earn by virtue of your DNA being part of the baby or the child? We've been talking about this a little bit, you know, when we drive to face gym and stuff. Deep therapy session. Yes, exactly.

Because both of us are very career oriented. Liz has a gajillion things going on. I have a gajillion things going on. And they really serve our identities, I would say. Being a boss, being a career woman, being successful means so much. And sometimes I do think about that. I'm like, if I have a kid, I'm not under any illusion that you can have it all. Like, I don't think that's real. I do think there's a give and take. And so I do know that I'll have to give, give some of that up. And that feels to me right

now, scary. And I wonder, how did you guys feel about that entering this process? Yeah, I mean, that definitely felt scary for me. I'm someone who'd worked since I was 15. I'd always had at least one job. I fully shifted gears, but I want to give Dre some space to talk about it because she's so lovingly and critically balanced both because we're in a family. And so this all takes money to do. Yes, exactly. You really can't have both parents fall off the career track. Thank you, baby.

And I also am extremely ambitious. So whatever it is that I'm in pursuit of, I'm very dedicated to it and very shrewd about my focus. And so there is an element that does occur that I'll speak honestly about it. I don't feel bad about it where I can develop a sort of low key resentment. And I think that that happens to all parents. I mean, I think there's a lot written about this and talked about this in alignment with what you shared. I really love my career. It sounds unusual to say because what I do is sell software. So I help massive brands solve critical problems

that help them achieve what they didn't think was possible. And I love it. And if I was left to my devices, I would stay in this wonderful office and be in here doing it for 50 hours a week, 60 hours a week, I'm really fueled by consistent achievement. And then also what gets layered in to what you said, Monica, is identity. So as a queer person, I have always had a chip on my shoulder, going back to my experiences, right? I'm 41 now. So when I was coming up as we call baby dykes, I was really nurtured by my forebears who kind of took me along. But I also had tremendous hardships relative to judgment, relative to being pushed out of opportunities. I didn't feel that I belonged. I felt that that opportunity was for conventional people and it was not for me. As a result of that,

achievement is really wrapped in to my self-worth. But you're absolutely right. Some things will fall off the table and you'll get choosy about that. You'll get choosy about who you spend time with and what you read when you have time to read, when you go to the bathroom. Yeah. Oh my God. Whether you have privacy when you go to the bathroom. That's all part of it for sure. But it becomes clear to you. It's not as much of a challenge as you think because your child and your experience will help make manifest that which you want to keep and focus on and that which you don't mind sort of letting drift to the side. Back to where we are right now and in this time of thinking about conception and all of these different options.

So you felt like when you approached your brothers that they'd be receiving or were you like, I don't know how they're going to take that? Like, you know, what's going on in your brains? Yeah. How do you start that conversation? Such a good question. And then we have to get into the mechanics of like collecting the sample. Yeah, we want everything. We need everything. Yeah, it's great. So I wish I could better remember exactly the setting, but it was a face to face conversation. There was a time when both of our brothers lived with us in Oakland at different times, which was so fun. And so we just all really bonded as a pod.

And so I was able to say, look, there's absolutely no pressure. I don't know how you're going to react to this. I don't know how your future partner will react to this. I don't know how your current partner will react to this. Because again, you're making this decision as a group, right? And everybody really needs to take the time to feel clear about this. Because the last thing we wanted, and I had a ton of anxiety about it, was to them feel compelled to say yes, but not really want to do it. I mean, that's why we unearthed a lot.

In therapy, we did tarot readings. Any modality was available to like unearth. As a queer woman, I'll light a candle over anything, right? So they were really receptive, really kind, super on board. And then I had anxiety about that. I'm like, you're saying yes too quick. Right. Like, don't you need to go home and think about it for a sec?

They're both people who really know their own minds and they have a lot of emotional intelligence. And so decisions weren't super fraught for them. Dre and I were seeing a really gifted couples therapist. And so we invited him into our home and the four of us sat together and we had conversations, you know, when she says facilitated conversations, like we had a family therapist meet with all four of us together. So we were really creating a space for everyone to explore their feelings and to be really honest and open. And it wasn't like

that cracked open some deep well within anyone. Everyone still sort of came to the same conclusions, but we really wanted to make sure we gave space. Yeah. Was anything revealed in those sessions that made anyone take pause or was just like enlightening? In hindsight, I think that we ought to have included my brother who was partnered, partner. I could also talk about her at length because she's absolutely wonderful. She's been such a remarkable addition to our family and truly become a sister. She also has tremendous poise, emotional intelligence. And I think that she would have probably brought to the surface more directly her feelings. Right.

Because again, I don't know how this has been for you, but when you're making a decision, even if it's your decision, you're doing it in this ecosystem of community. And there are a lot of opinions and feelings. And so some of these you're going to let in because you want their counsel. But when you're going to use your brother's sample to create a baby that he's going to be genetically tied to, perhaps spiritually tied to, you don't know what you're going to use your brother's sample to create a baby that he's going to be genetically tied to, perhaps spiritually tied to, you don't know what

you're going to get. Everyone's going to have an opinion. My mom, my dad, Rachel's family, it adds all this complexity. So I don't want to do therapy with all those people, but I would have loved to bring in my brother's partner because she never expressed that she was hurt that we didn't at all. But in hindsight, I'm thinking, yeah, she would have had so many feelings about this as like they're engaged and getting ready to start their life. The other insight, which was just funny, is that my baby brother, who's the youngest of us five, he said, this is going to be great because I'm going to use it as a barometer right away when I'm dating. When I have like my second date, I'm going to talk about this as one of the things I'm most proud about. And if there's an adverse reaction, I just know I got a dip.

That's a good one. It worked really well, right? Like it was a little litmus test for him. And did it change your relationship to your brother? Absolutely. And in fact, it actually brought up jealousy. I'm so curious about this. This all ties into the queer identity stuff too. So I want to be really clear to anybody who may eventually hear this. This is just my experience. And if you don't have this experience, we're not speaking universally, just about you. Absolutely not. Because I've met so many people that feel differently. But for me,

there's a way in which I felt excluded and expected to feel excluded, but I was always trying to talk myself out of it. I didn't want to acknowledge those feelings because they were really painful. And again, they tied into those earlier feelings. I don't belong. I'm not part of. And so I was so scared that someone in my family, that a friend would think of it as Jordan and Rachel's baby. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so I was always bolstering myself against this like preemptively sort of defensive because I was afraid of feeling excluded. So then I sort of started to get this little edginess, sort of like boxing him out. This is a perfunctory operation. Give me the sample and I'm out of here. Yeah.

And then go, go away. Yeah, exactly. What ended up being the case as is so his persona and way, that was absolutely what he wanted. So all those feelings after a time mostly went away. I still have them. People will ask us who are not as in the know about queer families, who's the father? Yeah. Oh, wow. And so we always immediately say there about queer families, who's the father? Yeah. Oh, wow.

And so we always immediately say there's no father, there's a donor. And also there have been times I've just said, you know, that is an inappropriate, invasive question to ask. And so I'm not going to answer that. We're a happy, thriving family, and that's what's important. So again, back to the question of how did it change my relationship? One, it didn't change my relationship at all with my brother who bowed out. It made me more respectful and connected of their partnership and him and her. And then with my baby brother, Jordan, you know, we're

just sick of thieves. Like we're very tight. And I got to the point where I would love it if he did develop some sort of additional kinship with Francie and Alder. That would be really sweet. A couple of weeks ago, we went on vacation together and he was teaching Alder how to fish. He's standing behind him. This is going to make me cry. And he's helping him cast the rod and reel it in. And it was just so beautiful. And I was so thankful. So the feelings sort of shift and move around. So we've had this thought experiment with an hour pod. One of our friends asked another friend, would you want to basically co-parent a kid together? This was a while ago. And he's gay and she's straight. And so he said no.

He was like, I feel like if we're all at these group hangs and that's my kid, I couldn't not be in his life every day. In donors, a lot, I'm sure it comes up, but especially here when you guys are a family and you see each other all the time and it's extended. And has he expressed anything like that? I don't think so. He's doing his life. It's so apart from our life. In the intervening six years, he has his own career. We don't live in the same cities anymore. He is now partnered and considering if they're going to have a family of their own. He's a performing musician. He's got a really rich life that is really satisfying and fulfilling to him. And he's not sitting around

sort of lusting for a deeper meaning through being more connected to us. You know, I think he's really happy with where he is. That's my perspective. But to that point, that was exactly my fear. And I was thinking as you were talking, let's say that they had both said no. That would have created some grief for me. I mean, I didn't have to experience it, but it was in the back of my mind when I was asking. I was a bit attached to this going this way. But at the same time, when you use an unknown donor, there's a lot of crispness and cleanness to doing it that way. And that was also pretty inviting. We talked about's a lot of crispness and cleanness to doing it that way. And that was

also pretty inviting. We talked about that a lot. It would also be really nice to just, this is clear. The boundaries are clear. And that's it. This is the process. And here we go. I just also think jealousy, I think is one of the most insightful emotions. It's the one where the most reluctant to let herself feel because you always feel like a dick. You feel like an asshole, right? And in your case, you were like, I don't even know that this is going to happen, but I'm afraid it's going to. But at the same time, it also teaches you what you care about and it teaches you what you want. And so it's amazing that you were able to really listen to that and explore that.

And again, learn more about each other, yourself, and do it that way. Yeah. Let us tell you a bit about the conception process. Yes, please. I'll tell you a bit about what my role was. And then I think Rachel can take you through that. It's a great experience. So one of the really hilarious, awkward things that would happen is that we would have to give Jordan a heads up when ovulation was going to happen. So I'd shoot him a text or give him a call and be like, okay, in two weeks for this period, can you not, you know, do any, let's say it this way. Can you keep your body as clean and your sample as vital and bouncy as possible which he was totally game for like such generosity especially at the time he was single he's an excellent musician so wow that

is giving up a lot but so to be specific no ejaculation is that it no there could be some light ejaculation but like same day maybe don't do it that day. No 48 hours. You got to be fresh and ready to rock. I don't think he was having unprotected sex, but like make sure that if you're going to make that choice, you don't do that now. Yes. Yes. I mean, there was a lot he had to submit to.

I mean, think about it from his perspective. Like he would be fascinating to talk to about this. So I have to make that call. Give him a heads up. We have a little awkward chuckle. Then the awkwardness would really come because we didn't live in Oakland anymore when we were doing this. So we drive from Sacramento to Oakland, show up at his apartment, ring his buzzer, hand him a sterilized tiny jam jar. He'd go into the house.

I'd just be on the stoop. And this is your brother. Yes, I know. So if you get too thoughtful about it, it's cringe to the max. But the first time, like she said, she was at the Airbnb, which we had made all beautiful. There were candles. The Palo Santo was going. Because when we started, we actually still were in Oakland. So we had our little apartment. I'd set up a little ulcer with the pomegranate and the candles burning. That's scientifically proven. She had a whole vibe of fertility going. So I'm waiting on the soup and then he would hand me the

jar. We'd make eye contact, chuckle, like both wanting this to be over immediately. And then the fertility doula said it was really important to keep it warm. So I would put it under my shirt against my belly. Oh, I know how you're feeling right now. It's a whole thing. And I would just say, this is for the baby. Let's get this home. God, the things you'll do for your potential children.

You can hold that over their head forever. For so many, that is a bridge too far. And I totally get it. But baby, you take it from here relative to what would come next. Well, in the beginning, we were very ceremonial about it. And we would try to create this really intimate space. But we were using a fertility doula. And so there's a process that you can use to sort of optimize your chances of conception of spinning the semen. And

so you separate the seminal fluid from the actual sperm in just like a centrifuge. And she had this. And so then she would then insert into my cervix, just the sperm. Got it. Yeah. But it was all able to be done from home, you know, so it was still this like cozy, comfortable environment. And we did a few rounds of this and I did get pregnant that way, but we lost some pregnancies in this whole process. So, you know, we started out with this more involved and expensive because we're like enlisting professional health process. And we evolved over time to a simplified version of all of this, which was our jam jar and a medicine dropper that came free from Walgreens. There we go.

No way. Because that's basically what people can do. My mom was like, we used to do, my day was a turkey baster. Yeah, it's like a turkey baster's too big. Turns out like the volume of semen involved is pretty small. It's much smaller than you think.

Can I actually say that? It's variable. Let's talk about how it's variable, right? The volume is variable. Got it. Can you do the centrifuge thing at home too? Is there like a low key kind of way to do it or no? Do you put it like through a strainer? I don't know. We didn't end up continuing that route one because we didn't want to have like another person involved anymore. You know, it was like with a couple of consultations with her and having her over through the process, she served her purpose, right? Like it became less mysterious.

It became something that we could sort of do ourselves, we realized. And we didn't need this extra boost of doing it intrauterine. Yeah. She's a good coach and you learned. Wow. So, gosh, this is pulling the veil off a little bit because it feels so technical and so medical. And there's all these steps and there's got to do this and you got to do this. And ultimately, like you went to Walgreens and then that's how it happened.

Right. Like the fewer interventions, the intrauterine started to feel like, actually, I mean, this is supposed to optimize, but maybe it's not because it's a little bit painful and you can have some uterine contractions and that's definitely counterintuitive to what you want. Wow. Walgreens. Shout out. Shout out. So by the time we had our second. And how many years apart? They're three and a half years, you know, sort of our journey to Alder, which involved pregnancy loss, which was of course just devastating. It became part of the conception process. And I really didn't want to be devastated by it, but it still was, especially the first one. It was so shocking. I didn't expect that to be part of the process.

I expected to get pregnant and then be pregnant and then have a baby. I was astonished to learn that like up to 25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. And I just thought that the woman who identified that my pregnancy was no longer developing and that I was going to miscarry was a woman who was wrong and lying to me. And I would need a second opinion. You know, it really took me some time to believe her. In that case, it was a really physically grueling and awful experience of miscarriage. So sorry. And then I had another one that was more like a late period. And then another one that, you know, the miscarriage part was medically assisted so that we could have the test done to find out, am I miscarrying because there's some sort of biological mismatch

here? All of those processes end up being part of our journey. Then we very fortunately had beautiful, older, eight and a half pounds, gorgeous, healthy, amazing baby. Then we decided, me a bit begrudgingly, okay, we'll have a second. Oh, wait, let's talk about that, yeah. Yeah, well, because I was the primary caregiver, right?

And let me tell you, Alder is not an easy going little human. He's like temperamentally very intense. So he was really demanding. Still is. He's wonderful. So charismatic. Everyone is drawn to him. There's nothing about him that's easy. Right. Right. Well, those are the best of us. Sounds like all the men I'm interested in. interested in yeah right i mean it's kind of all high achieving people too right it is oh yeah now that i'm a parent i meet really cool interesting complex dynamic people and i'm like you were probably a nightmare oh my god my parents just hated me you were difficult oh to them the worst because also it is also the type of person that's really high achieving outwardly to everyone else so that they can come home and be awful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like they have a space to be awful. Yeah, that was me too. Wow.

Yeah, so I have two siblings. Dre has four. Neither of us were experienced with being only children. We weren't super comfortable with that proposition, but I was like a little more comfortable. But she was like, no, we have to give Alder a sibling. And my mom passed when Alder was around a year old. And so that was something that I really went through with my siblings. The importance for me of having those close people to have that shared experience with, we were the only three people who were feeling what we were feeling at

the same time in the same way. So it gave me the resolve to like do that additional work of having another child. I was like, okay, I guess this sibling thing is pretty valuable and I can do this. I have friends who have the same dynamic where their partner is more like, I don't do it. I think that's very common in couples to have sort of different opinions on how many children. You have to try not to be pushy. It's back to the thing with the brothers, right? Like, I don't want to push her into conceiving. If Francie eventually listens to this, it's not like I had to push super hard. Yeah. But you do have to be careful, but you also will carry the feeling because I'm getting more and more attached to this idea. I'm having fantasies of like the matching pajamas and

him teaching her whatever, playing the piano and dancing around and her annoying him and knocking over his Hot Wheels, which has all happened. And as I'm getting more pulled into this fantasy, I'm getting more frustrated. You know, I'm starting to tell this story like she's selfish and doesn't she love being a mother and rumble, rumble like, oh my God, I've married a monster. Yes. This is what we do. We all do this. Yeah. Totally start telling stories. Yes. Yeah. So I was mostly mostly all in I know that like with Alder I will just overflow with love when I meet this second child even though the actual work of having to felt really daunting it wasn't like we conceived and I got pregnant and I sustained the pregnancy

you know like we went through loss again. And so, of course, that was also a factor. It's a lot. For weeks, you're on edge, sort of anticipating ovulation. At that point, I was so well versed in sort of early pregnancy, monitoring my HCG levels and scanning my body constantly for clues around the viability of the pregnancy. And it was taxing. It took a toll. It was emotionally a lot to carry.

And it's always on in the background. Yes. You're doing normal life. You're going to the grocery store. You're having social outings. You're also simultaneously carrying all this hope and fear and worry. So doing that was tough. Then at this point, we moved to Amsterdam. So we moved to Amsterdam. I'd had two pregnancy losses. We were exploring our options over there. You know, it's a completely different medical care

system. And so we're thinking maybe insurance covers some of the fertility treatments. And so that becomes more accessible and we're investigating those options. And then we're thinking maybe insurance covers some of the fertility treatments. And so that becomes more accessible. And we're investigating those options. And then we come home for a visit. And while we're home for a visit, I ovulate. And Jordan said to us, I'm giving you through the end of the year. And then I'm retiring from this donor business. Okay.

And so, wow, this is going to be the only time we're going to see him this year because we're living overseas. So we head to Walgreens, Walgreens, get the jam jar and the free dropper. And also through the conception process, we stopped inviting people in early. Right. So we stopped telling people we've inseminated or Rachel's had a positive test. The emotional roller coaster of that became too much to share with other people. And so we were going to do this insemination while we were home from Amsterdam, mostly in secret, right? So not telling any of our family what we're doing.

So we have to kind of play it cool. So Dre stays back with like family and it's just like, Rachel's going to go and like, just have some time with her bestie. And so I'm with my best friend and he's driving us in his little Prius. This time I have to be the one with the jam jar and holding it against my stomach with the dropper and the jam jar and a little tea towel under my bottom. I inseminate while my best friend is like driving us to San Francisco. Wait, in the car? Oh my God. Oh my God. I wonder how many babies, probably a lot, have been conceived in a car.

Yeah, a moving vehicle. Wow. Oh, that's great. And did it work? It worked? And it worked. It worked. And it was so magical because it was so sort of unexpected that the timing

aligned and we were traveling we were traveling with a toddler so we didn't have a lot of time to really think about it very much and we get back home and we're hosting and we're like we go off to Italy and we come home to Amsterdam and I have some implantation bleeding and so I really think oh it didn't work. And that makes sense. What can you do? We're moving on. We're going to pursue our other avenues. And then I'm exhausted. Right. And so then I get to have that really fun experience of being like, why am I so tired? Wait, like that period never really started. Oh, wait, I should probably get a pregnancy test. You know, and that's like so different from the sort of hypervigilant HCG tracking that I had done with all of our other conception experiences.

And so I got to have like the surprise positive, that sort of classic like, oh, I can't use this stick. classic, like, oh, I need this to stick. I mean, it goes to show, again, you need so many resources to just have a baby in the United States, particularly any fertility treatment or any fertility support is also really expensive. But it happened in the back of the car with a Walgreens jam jar. You know, it can also happen that way. And I think that's really encouraging to hear. Totally. Right. And our lawyer works on a sliding scale. So, you know, we paid full price so the other folks don't have to. Right. Because it's like, let's get that critical line in there about having a legal contract. I mean, that's just so critical.

I mean, even at that point when we made our donor agreements and then went through with our subsequent adoptions, the legal climate was better. It's more precarious now. But family law is different from county to county, from state to state. And so, unfortunately, people who conceive in unconventional ways have to carry the burden financially and logistically of making sure that they protect themselves legally. It's just critical. lawyer in this parentage field, advocating for a lot of change with adoption for parents who are not technically legally parents and why aren't they like, you know, all these things that just start arising that I'm sure you guys had to deal with. Is it like at birth, there's something that gets signed? Yeah. So Alder was born in a county where parent is what's on the birth certificate.

And so we were able to have both of us listed on the birth certificate, but that's not universal. After getting the birth certificate and social security number, we worked with a lawyer who then filed for legal adoption. So, you know, it's called second parent adoption. And so that sort of reiterates where co-equal parents, that's really important because not every state is like keen to acknowledge exactly in this whole element of you have to adopt your own child did that feel so bizarre definitely it was angering it was reassuring that that path existed there's this other thing though where i think for a lot of queer people you kind of expect it to be hard I was grateful there was a path to really lock it in yeah so of course I was resentful and

sad and made me feel a little bit of an outsider but one of the things Rachel was really insistent on making me really feel very part of is that the kids have my last name she retained her last name but the kids have mine and And that's just really sweet. But the other thing about the court order is our lawyer said, when you travel, carry this with you. So I have a laminated copy that's always in my backpack. If God forbid something happened to Rachel while we were traveling and I needed to be really clear on the parentage of the kids, I always have that with me. That's like, what? Like my dad doesn't carry and my mom doesn't care. Like no one's carrying around proof that they're my parents. It's incredibly sad. And, you know, Rachel alluded to this, but the political climate

is becoming much more fraught relative to rights and relative to inclusion. And it is getting more scary. In fact, our lawyer actually put together like a one cheater for all of her clients on here's what to expect if these laws were overturned. Oh, wow. Yeah. This is what she foresees. And it's like that's a crushing weight that you're sort of thinking through. But one other thing I'll share relative to the law that's actually really cool and exciting through a really wonderful law that Italy passed. We qualify for Italian citizenship and we're going through the process now. And had it not been my brother's genetic material, it would have been much more difficult to get my kids on the application.

How interesting. Because the qualifications through my bloodline. So this is like a really cool additional bonus. We don't need this citizenship for Fry, but it would open up a lot of wonderful possibilities. Yeah. So it's just this really cool detail, this additional blessing from doing it this biological route. Wow. Interesting. You're just never thinking about this. You wouldn't think about that. No, that's an outlier scenario for sure.

And so when your brother said, okay, end of the year and I'm kind of done, did you guys feel panic? What was the next option on the table if this doesn't work? You know, we'd already had that awakening and full realization of what makes us parents to our children is the act of parenting and not the biology, right? And so we're definitely open to the donor idea. We know what makes a family is the time you spend together and the love that you have and the quarrels. The fights that you have make a family. That's truly true. It really is. I will say though, to the idea of like him putting a timeframe on it, it totally brought up for me, wow, I developed this little entitlement to his sample because I wasn't expecting to be cut off, you know? Yeah.

That was sort of funny. I mean, it was very easy to immediately receive his boundary, but I did have this little like hitch in my giddy up where I was like, well, damn, what if I want a third? Of course. I would have thought the exact same thing. Like, well, you've agreed to this and you're my brother and like, I hate you. You guys are way more evolved than me. I'd be like, oh, you'd be so mad. This is our best face for her. We've also had conflict around this.

When we're at family things, someone is like, oh, he's just like Jordan. He's just like this. I get this little flare up in my heart, right? Because I want people to say, oh, he looks just like Jordan. He's just like this. I get this little flare up in my heart, right? Because I want people to say, oh, he looks just like you. Oh my goodness. You both sing so well or whatever. So my niece and I are so similar. It was my sister and Mila's dad who's my niece, but there are so many similarities. And so some of it might even be things that people are reading into that are just similarities because he is your brother. Totally. Right. When I observe it, it's sweet. I love to observe their similarities.

Of course. When someone else does it, I'm like, you're undermining my parentage. It's obviously absurd. But the point is, is that there have been moments where then I go into the house and I'm complaining about it to my sister and I'm like, can you believe what they said? And she's like, well, I think they just probably meant that, you know, you're all in the family and this is how they act. And I'm like, no. You said a don't is like, who's the father? Don't ask that. Are there any do's and don'ts to your way of conception? I mean, vocabulary is obviously so critical. You both know this. You're both wildly intelligent and particularly being women's studies major, you know that language makes up the meaning for how we perceive almost everything.

Don't ask who's the father. It's a relational term, right? Like, and if there's not that relation, then it's irrelevant. Yeah, that's such a good point. It's relational, not biological. And then also we would say sample, right? He donated his sample. And probably I like that too. Cause like sperm is very in my face. Oh my God. I'm sorry. I've been saying sperm the whole time. I'm the worst. I'm sorry. I'm learning. We're all learning. Okay. That's more just my, like, this is a rule now for when you talk to me. Like it's okay to say sperm to others. I like to say sample. We'd like to say donor. Don't ask who's the father.

I think like it's okay to ask who was the birth mother. And especially even using that phrase. There's the don'ts, but there's also the do's. Like it's great to use language that's inclusive. It makes me feel great. It makes me feel seen. Even if you don't necessarily see that I look like Alder, you can say that I do. Just throw some bones out there, you know?

I love it. What would you add, baby? Similarly, I felt pretty on guard in the beginning. I was afraid of having people at family gatherings sort of overemphasizing the connection to Jordan. I feel like everyone's done a great job of kind of seeing Alder as himself, first off, and then secondarily seeing how we're the parents. So how I would play it in the beginning to sort of set the tone is if he did something or looked similar to part of Dre's family, I just generalized it. He's so much like the siblings or, you know, looking at these baby pictures, I see him in Jakey and in Jordan. And I kept on kind of generalizing that familial connection so that the connection didn't seem so directly tied to the donor, that it was more like to the family.

There's so many different directions and stories to share. But one of the things I think is so important is that a lot of the things that I was afraid of have never materialized. And instead, the fears that I had around feeling external to Francie or Alder and less connected, I mean, it just couldn't be further from the truth. And when I am out with them, I feel so centered and certain about being their parent. This is probably a don't. I have a feeling it's a don't. But for the sake of this podcast, I am curious, before you decided who your donor was going to be, when you two were just talking about having children. Rachel, were you like, I want to carry? Yeah, I think it was very clear to both of us that I would carry in part because Dre does not do well with discomfort. Okay, there we go.

You know, it's like temperament and personality like totally just lined that up for us, right? She's not long suffering. So it made that an easier choice. Okay. After Alder was born and before we had Francie, we did have that conversation. Would it work? You know, because I had such a challenging journey conceiving and sustaining a pregnancy. And then let me tell you, birth was magical and also really painful. And so we just kind of talked it through and logistically it just didn't make as much sense because of our familial arrangement. Yeah, because of our finances,

because of my absolute lack of desire to do it. Right, yep. I also think this touches on something really interesting too, which is that from a queer perspective, there are many couples, so thinking of whether this is trans women or cis women, there are many couples, so thinking of whether this is trans women or cis women, there are many times that perhaps a more feminine presenting woman will carry and will sort of automatically assume that it will be she who carries. And I can't analyze from where all of

that comes from. There's probably many books written as to why we get that notion. I think it's from patriarchy. Yeah, usually. I mean, I from patriarchy. Yeah, usually. I mean, I'm not going to disagree with that. But it is. We've grown up in such a heteronormative society that we're applying it to all these areas where that doesn't exist.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's so important that we acknowledge, though, that there are these beautiful, child-carrying women, men, what have you, that are representing pregnancy in this totally less usual way. I cannot say for certain that I haven't been influenced by that, that because I'm sort of butch, I am much more masculine presenting that perhaps I also just assumed that's not for me.

I'm the one that's going to work. I'm the one that's going to do repairs around the house that inevitably also I do badly and have to end up calling the service people. Anyway, sometimes we even observe ourselves falling in to the heteronormative positionality. And then that totally weirds us out. We're like, what are we doing? What the fuck is happening? Like we're a queer family. How should we be? I just think that's also really interesting. But for me, no, I never have had any interest in caring, but certainly love being a mom. And then to your point about is this a do or a don't? I think that's a great question. I mean, especially after all that we've talked about, I wouldn't make it your opener.

Sure. Yeah, we're deep diving here. If you were at a party, maybe. I mean, I guess just depends on how how many drinks and how many drinks. Yeah, we both just love honesty. Like, I really love just being honest. Again, it's like I don't want people who are sort of rude and assume sort of an entitlement to our story with other people who are genuinely curious and certainly with people who are looking for ways to chart their own course. It can help lay a groundwork for them, you know, and it can open up new possibilities. And so I do love sharing our stories with the people who are in a heartfelt way interested. Queer couples are outside of the, I guess, mainstream where they get to make choices that straight couples don't get to make. Like, imagine if you could choose, Monica, if the husband could carry, you're like, who should carry the baby for nine months? I know.

Change their entire career path. And very often, I think I've delayed motherhood because I didn't know if I wanted to be a mom, but I knew I wanted to be a dad. I was like, if I could be a dad, I could be a dad right now. But being a mom is so much more of a bigger question. Being a dad means it's not your body. Your career won't be as impacted. You know, there's a motherhood penalty. There's a fatherhood bonus. So women make less money and men who have children are seen more favorably by their employers and end up making more money. And so there's all of those things at our play. But then at the same time, you're kind of saying as much as we're outside of that mainstream, we're also affected

by the mainstream. And we fell into these heterosexual almost roles. This might be a don't as well. But do you feel like it gave you insight into some of the struggles that straight men have in marriages? I think a lot of women are resentful of the men that they end up being married to because they're like, you didn't have to do this. You didn't have to take all this responsibility and this burden. Has it given you a different insight into it? It's so funny that you're saying this because I have fallen asleep at night, not wanting to admit it, but I'm like, I'm like the king of Queens guy. Like I'm becoming this like complete stereotype guy. When I come out of the the office like why is dinner not ready I need a break from the dishes tonight I haven't had any alone time today all I have to do for chores is

the dishes like she does the dishes throughout the day so I'm only doing the dinner dishes like I said for my birthday it's coming up I, babe, make me a coupon book that has like 10 get out of the dishes. And so I have definitely had the awareness, the shameful, but also funny awareness that I have skyrocketed into this entitlement. She was just saying to me the other day, don't dismiss me like I'm in your employ. me the other day, don't dismiss me like I'm in your employ and now you need to go take the kids to the park. And I, of course, really blanched that she accused me of that. And then 10 minutes later, I saw the complete truth in it. Why do I feel that I stand apart? Which is so funny because I was just talking about being afraid of being perceived as standing apart. But why do I feel that I stand apart when it comes to these typical familial responsibilities? Like if I get a work call, it's like, I have to take this.

Shit can be melting down in the house, but I'm like, oh, I have to take this. But Rachel participates in so many tremendous civic and community engagements. She is the reason our local library reopened. She's the reason we have seed lumps on our road to protect animals and children. She organized an incredible children's concert series. When like once every three weeks, she needs to come and like be on a Zoom with all these sweet men and women to plan this stuff. I'm inside just like slamming cabinets, like defying left and right. What a total jabroni asshole. Oh, wow.

So it's like, where is this coming from? So I'm really working on it. Where is it coming from? It's coming from these male and female, quote, roles that we have established over time. And then it's like- One is valued, one is devalued. You just decide like, I guess I got to fit in.

This impacts sort of your self-perception and then the way that you're valued in the world. This was awesome, you guys. This was so good. Was this helpful? So helpful. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's like a hard thing to admit and be vulnerable about and share to the world. I think it'll help a lot of people, no matter what their family composition is.

There are so many ways to make a family and that's a beautiful thing. And it can also be a daunting thing. So to hear human stories, I think is the best way for us to connect. Thank you so much. Take care. Good luck on your processes. Thank you. Bye y'all. Bye. I just learned so much about sperm. So much about the sample. Oh, sorry. You're not supposed to sayall. Bye. I just learned so much about sperm. So much about the sample. Oh, sorry. You're not supposed to say that. Wow, you already, wow.

No. Okay. Nope. You can't take it. Great. Love it. Well, I can't get canceled. We've already determined.

So that's right. I'm getting it all out of my system. We cannot get canceled during this whole process because we have no control over our minds or bodies. We don't. Hormone brains can't be canceled. They can't. But we are really grateful to everyone who joined us today. we have no control over our minds or bodies. We don't. Hormone brains can't be canceled. They can't. But we are really grateful to everyone who joined us today. And I'm grateful for you.

We have a lot more ahead of us. So thank you guys for listening. And please join us next week for day three of this monstrosity, this journey.