Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Race to 35: Day 4 + Eve Wiley + Bee

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

Liz and Monica don't know what's real in episode 4 (of 10) of Race to 35. Monica receives unfortunate news from her doctor, we learn about Liz's synchronized swimming history and they remind each other they can do hard things. The remainder of the episode focuses on fertility fraud. They speak with Eve Wiley, advocate for regulation and legislation in the fertility industry, who tells a harrowing personal experience in uncovering her genetic truth. We also speak to Bee, a young woman who discovers she has many "diblings" (donor siblings) across the US and how she has learned to embrace the positive. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's Saturday. It's Saturday. It's the weekend. How are you feeling? On a scale from one to a manic. I don't feel manic. I feel frustrated. And what are you frustrated by?

Like, was it all little things or are there big things too? There's nothing things like what just happened where the mic was. Monica just got into a battle, like a physical fist fight with the mic. The mic stand wasn't in the right spot. So things like that. But also I just had my second appointment. You go in after your three days and you had yours a day before me. So I had mine, just came back from it. So they go in again with their dildo. And what they do is, you know, they look at your follicles. They're measuring your follicles because they want them to get bigger. So some of them have gotten bigger and some haven't. She's like, well, keep pushing through. I'm increasing medication like you did.

You are too. Okay. Because yeah, yesterday I got a double dose. It's my new dose. And I was worried about what that meant. And then you were like, I bet I'm going to get a double dose too. And here we are. So they've adjusted medication and stuff and they're like pushing through, but she had like such a hopeless look on her face. She's just like, okay, there are five that are big and probably, you know, retrievable. And then the rest, the other four are not as big as she wants them to be. So maybe with these doses, maybe, you know, fingers crossed that we'll get one or two more, but the number we're looking at is five. Okay. Out of 30 is not good.

I just shouldn't say out of 30. That's like a- 30, no one has 30 in this room. I don't know who 30 is. 30 is like a 21-year-old. We're not comparing ourselves to 21-year-olds. And we can't compare ourselves to anyone. And, you know, she like said it and then she just looked at me.

She was like, how many cycles were you thinking about doing? Just one? Of course she has to say that. She's like, this is not what you want. And I was like, well, yeah, I'm definitely going to have to do this again is what's becoming clear. How quickly can I do it again? And she was like, you could literally do it next month, your next period. And I was like, but yeah, but I would need to get off birth control. And she was like, yeah, I think that would help. And that would definitely increase your number. I recommend at least getting off for four months.

And then she was like, you know, it's not indicative of how likely you'll be to get pregnant. It's just your reserve. And if you get off the birth control, it's not like we're going to go from five to 30. Right. We might get like 10. And I was like, oh, okay. So in some ways, the birth control isn't having like a drastic effect. So I felt some relief, but then I was like, oh, it's my body. I don't have very many. And she was like, yeah. Well, okay. I think that the fact that you've been on birth control though, since you've been 18, is the body that you made in ways, again, someone could be, I don't know if you're like get punched in the gut all the time because you're like a WWE, like whatever, like that would also impact you. And you were on birth control, which

you were on an FDA approved, very common form of birth control. But it seems like it does impact. I think what she's saying is that will leave your system. If you get off, if you get off four months, six months, it will leave your system. She wasn't like that had a permanent effect on you. But we don't know. You don't know. You don't know.

How long maybe being on it for that long maybe had an effect. I don't know. Yes. knows how long maybe me being on it for that long maybe had an effect. I don't know. But ultimately, if and when I get off after this whole journey, I still won't have that many. But then it's cumulative, right? It's like the five plus the those. Then if I, oh my God, like, am I going to do this three times? No, because things in your life might change. I mean, Callie did it twice. And like the second time she's doing it with embryos and met a person like I get it. I totally want to validate all of the feelings as we've compared notes of blacking out during most of these.

It is so intense. I've never made a decision about what I've eaten, what I've done based on my fertility. I think about, you know, how healthy I feel or like other things. Yeah. But and I think most people it's like that until you're ready to have kids. Yeah. And so it does feel like this thing of, oh my God, this whole time I didn't know. I haven't been planning for this. I haven't been planning for this. I haven't been thinking about this.

I didn't have all the information. And even then, if 15 years ago when the pill was very necessary for you for a whole array of reasons, someone would have told you like, oh, by the way, when you're 35 and you're doing this cool podcast because you're like this big famous person, you will have maybe like five eggs less. You would have done it. Of course. Yes. So in some ways, it's relieved me of this birth control issue. It's a factor, but it's not the factor that I put all this emphasis on. So there's some relief there, but I have this weird thing where I'm like, I'm relieved. And then I also have this added, oh my God, my body is broken. Like it doesn't make the same amount of eggs as other people. Like I'm stupid. Well, you know, it's just like, I'm not, I'm like bad and broken and like an idiot. Immediately it goes just to all those things.

So worthless. Okay, so we did drink yesterday. Oh, you didn't. Well, because I've been pothead this whole time without knowing it. But can we just pause on that? I'm about to cry. It's my about to cry. No, because it's like I so get it.

Like I want to tell you all the things that are. No, it's not true. I want to give you all of that because also there's so many other things that make you who you are and that like we are worthy for so many, so many, so many different reasons. Egg count is like weight or SAT score. It's like a number to kind of latch onto and then to use as evidence of this deep held belief, you know, whatever it is about ourselves that one sliver part of our brain is looking for. And on top of it, your own hormones. So I'm sure that was really painful. I'm sure that was really hard to sort of take in. But I do want to tell you, you are not worthless. You're so amazing. You might meet the person and then literally get pregnant on the first try. It doesn't mean you're infertile. And even if you'retile, it doesn't mean that you're bad. That doesn't mean that you're broken. There's so many things my body can't do that your body can do.

It's just so weird. It's just like the SAT score, I like grew up knowing that's a number that I like want to achieve. I didn't care until now. I care all of a sudden. I didn't know to care. That's probably the right thing. I shouldn't be going through life being like, I care all of a sudden. I didn't know to care. That's probably the right thing. I shouldn't be going through life being like, I hope I have a lot of eggs in my body. Like, who would I be if I was that person? And most women don't, right? Like most women aren't freezing their eggs. There's a lot of women, more women who are doing it, but it's still a minority. And so most women are walking around with five eggs, not knowing they have five eggs, living a blissful, ignorant life. Like you. Like I was.

Four weeks ago. And hopefully going to take our notes. I feel like they shouldn't tell you the number in a way that, by the way, when you used to go to the doctor, they would tell you your weight. And now they say, do you want to know? It's not saying they're going to keep it secret and in a envelope and like, we're not going to tell you your result. But I think they should ask you, is this something you want to know?

Because I feel like they're withholding information from me because they know I have anxiety. Like my doctor texted me this morning. She's like, are you okay? They've offered me their therapy. Like I think they're worried a little bit. Day two was bad. And also I think they've been taking note of all my late night mistakes. And like, I think they're like, is she okay?

Oh yeah, because you're like texting them at like midnight. Like, I'm going to have an embolism. Okay. Oh yeah, because you're like texting them at like midnight. I'm texting them at midnight. Like, I'm going to have an embolism. Got the dosage wrong. I took the wrong thing out. It's like, is she on the brink? And yes, I am. Because I've doubled my dose. And then she was just like, oh, there just seems to be a lot of estrogen. Like, I'm producing a lot of estrogen, which I guess is not great. But then I was like, maybe that's why I was crazy. She again is like, not really telling me that much information. And I can tell that it's for my benefit. So anyway,

sorry, this is like a really long way to be explaining. Like, I almost feel like they really should think about how they're delivering this information. Because again, we're also not equipped to really understand it. Like we barely understand anything. Also, I'm not trying to like make you feel better. I want to also make space for like all those feelings. I know it's so much. No, it's just such a bizarre thing to feel disappointed in something you don't even know if you want even. Want to, yes. Oh my gosh, I do. I want to get pregnant. Like, you know, I've had already this ride. But again, I'm not a person And like, you know, I've had already this ride.

But again, I'm not a person who feels, although now maybe I'm becoming her, I don't know. But that feels if I leave this earth without a kid, I'm devastated. I have never felt that. And I don't still, even though now I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like thinking about it more. Even still, I'm like, that's not going to make or break my life. And even as that person, it's incredibly disappointing and sad. I'm thinking about all these women, so many women who are going through IVF and going through this process and not able to have kids. It's so heavy. I don't think I've had enough empathy towards that

because I just haven't been in it. I haven't thought about it. I haven't given it any space. And now I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so intense to be a woman and have to think about this kind of thing and deal with all the feelings that come with it. It's a lot.

I feel the same way. And again, it's made me appreciate the female body so much more. And again, being weirdly like excited about being pregnant because it's like my body can do this. Like my body can just like how exciting. Yeah. But also remember that you also had that feeling while you were on the hormones. I know.

So you also might not even feel that way in two weeks. You might be like, fuck no. I don't even, you know. It's so weird. Like what's real? What's real? God, you put it so well. What's real about what I'm thinking?

What's real about what I'm experiencing? And what's even real about what I'm remembering happened? Yes. Like, I thought back about the last few days. I'm like, was I weird when I was foggy? It's all flippy fog. What's real? Okay.

So, real quick. So we interviewed an awesome person yesterday who kind of was like, drinking is fine. And so I was like, I'm going to have one drink. My doctor said it was fine to drink. And then we kind of got some extra confirmation from somebody yesterday. And I was like, I'm going to. So we went to a wine bar. You had a non-alcoholic gross drink. And I had a glass of wine. And it was lovely. And it was super fun and a great chat. Then I got home an hour later, and I was depressed. You were? You didn't tell me. I know I didn't tell you. Oh, why? I don't know. I just didn't want to revisit it immediately.

Oh, okay. You wanted to write it. By the time you came over at nine, it was over. I watched the rehearsal and it made me laugh and feel weird because he's like raising a baby in it. I know. It's weird. It's weird. It's a lot. It's kind of fascinating because he's doing the same thing we are sort of.

Yeah, that's true. He's like practicing for a kid and he's deciding is it something he wants. Yeah, this is kind of a weird. Rehearsal. Interesting. It is. It's like a weird sim. I had kind of come out of it and I thought if I brought it back up, I would like sink back in.

So I didn't. But yeah, so I got very sad. Oh. And I was like, oh, I can't drink. And it's not because of the eggs. It'll make me depressed. It's like it's not because of the eggs. It'll make me depressed. It's like it's not good with these hormones. You said that early.

I know. And I really didn't want it to be true. You did, but also you didn't know. I mean, that's why weed is perfect and they need to make us let it. It just calms you down. Yeah. Unless you had an air bubble before, it'll make you a little paranoid. Alcohol is a depressant.

Yeah. And if you're in any kind of just a different kind of mood, it can go south real quick. I'm so sorry. Were you okay going to bed and this morning or were you still kind of low? I was fine going to bed. Then I woke up today irritated and frustrated, but not sad per se. But then I got this kind of sad news and I kind of, I'm like, I want to throw in the towel, but I can't. And that's fine. Remember Callie had 30 million or whatever? I know.

Because she was 27. And then she got three. I mean, she was young. She was younger than us. She was younger than us. You know, doesn't necessarily even correlate, but it can. And she only got three. We might start off from a different number, but then end up, I might end up with less than you.

I don't know what's going on in there. We don't know anything. We don't know anything. I want you to get 30. There's no 30. We would have to grow extra ones. I'd have to like, I don't know, get them from like the market. Okay.

Well, I want you to get 24, which is the number of your follicles you think. Don't put it out there that you might have less because don't do that. Like you should get 24 and I'll get five. Should we not talk about our numbers? No, we have to. We have to. Yeah, because content. Because you're type A. Your Enneagram is one. Yeah, my Enneagram one and we have to. You know, you're saying maybe the doctor shouldn't tell you, but they actually have to tell you because you do need to know how many you have because they have a die-off period. You need to know if you're going to use them how many you have. You're trying to give yourself the best shot for eventual use. Got it. That's what it's for.

You have to know. If they take them all out, does that mean I have less in? It's per cycle. Okay, so there's new ones coming in. Exactly. That's why they can like do it again next month. And there might be more next month for you. It might be a totally different number. Exactly. It won't be a totally different. It could be a few different per cycle. And then with this birth control, like with the, I have a hormone blocker in me.

So like with that removed, then the number will increase. But again, still not like an insane amount. I don't think I mentally can do it again. I understand. You're like, I can tell. I just think I would have to be in Barbados. Like make it like a destination egg freezing. It's just very hard.

And maybe again by the end I'll be like, that was easy. That was great. Like everything you do that's hard, we can do our thing. We can do our thing. And actually, yesterday's injections were the best injections because Monica made me laugh. She said, we can do our thing right before she jabbed me in the most compassionate, loving way. It was better. I didn't make any mistakes, which is a new thing. I did forget the box, but we used a water bottle.

That was fine. We used a water bottle for our sharps container. That's because I have a friend who is a really fabulous physical therapist. And she works in North Carolina, now Georgia. And in those states, you can do dry needling, which is a form of physical therapy. And they use needles. And when I see her, she does it on me. And so she has a sharp spin, obviously.

Is that like acupuncture? Ish, but they go into the muscle. Not sure you'd love it. I don't know if it's for you. But when you have like tightness and knots and stuff, they go into the muscle with this needle and like twitches and then it releases, it's incredibly effective. It's really good.

So she does dry needling to me when I'm with her. And she has a sharp spin, but sometimes if we're on vacation and she brings her needles and she doesn't bring her sharp spin, she uses a water bottle. Got it. So. Got it. It's good information. If you're freezing your eggs, if you're a physical therapist doing trineedling, and

if you're an addict. Yeah. Yeah. Water bottles. I thought about this last night where I was like, would you have sex even if you could? This goes back to the whole thing. It's like, why I'm not wearing tampons? I'm like, I'm afraid.

And it makes no sense. Those things aren't even touching. Like, nothing. Nothing. It makes no sense those things aren't even touching like nothing nothing it makes no logical sense well also hormonally it's like then when i fall in love and then that's scary oh yeah that is playing with fire yeah playing with fire because you've fallen with the wrong person exactly my whole lower body like, my friend Como came over. We all had lunch and she just kind of

hugged me on that. I was like, it's tender. I wouldn't probably want to have sex even if I could. You know what it feels like, really?

I feel private about it. It's like, it's mine. Like my body is, really feels like mine right now and like something to protect but also be mad at. You know? Probably how I will be about my kids. I'll be also be mad at you know probably how I will

be about my kids I'll be protective and mad at them that's exactly right so it's a rehearsal how are you I mean I talked so much oh I'm so happy you shared all of that and obviously I'm here I sent Monica photos of me crying in bed but I did feel like a dog that goes away to die like I really wanted to hide under the bed and I didn't want to tell anyone how I was feeling except you. I don't know what you got sad about, but in my case, I was focusing on one thing. That was a real thing. But I was obviously dramatizing it so much. And so that's what would help me with when I went in the doctor while she had to dildo inside of me giving me advice about dating.

She was like, you know, ride the wave and it might come back. It's like, oh, it was like a wave. It was like being washed over and then you're like in it, but it reminds you that it will kind of pass. It does. It's all temporary. It's all temporary, but it also is scary. It is a lot, but it is important to remember. I mean, in general, I try to remember this feeling, this sadness. This is temporary. And then for this, this is literally temporary. This is something you're doing for 10 days. It is going to be over.

So that's an important thing to remember. How are you feeling today? Do you feel happy? I don't feel happy. I, first of all, slept without any aids. Great. So that was great. And I went to bed early, woke up at like a, slept very well. Good. So I was really happy about that. And then I did wake up, I got like seven texts from the guy I'm dating. And like six out of the seven were like the most wonderful. If there's anything I can do.

And then there was like one text that was like, I would love to hang this weekend. And I was like, wait, we made a plan to hang tonight. Is he not going to hang out with me tonight? And then like, am I not important? And then it's been like that. So I'm seeing the fact that I'm in tunnel vision right now. And I'm focusing on the one thing that could give me anxiety over the 18 billion things that are great. I'm at a four.

Okay. But I feel like our numbers are not the same. So, oh yeah, that's something we have to discuss. Yesterday, your friend was asking like, how painful is it really? That's when we realized how different our experiences are. I said the first needle is like a six. And then Monica, her eyes bulge out of her.

And then the second shot is a 10. And Monica just started laughing and like lost her mind. And then she was like, what is a 10 to you? Like what is- What else is a 10? What else is a 10? What's your bar? Because I am not understanding.

Because I put the first shot at a 0.5. Insane. And I put the second shot at a 0.5. Insane. And I put the second shot at a 1.5. Like I added a full point. But I think the second shot is a 2.8. So specific. 2.8. Yeah, and I'm going to stick with 0.5 for first shot.

Damn. Because to me, it's uncomfortable for sure. There's discomfort, but it's not painful. Where's the dildo for you then? Okay, I don't love the dildo. Me neither. Does she lube it up for you? Yeah.

Okay. So much lube. Yeah, I know. Sometimes I'm walking down the mall, I'm like worried I have gunk on me. Yep, there's gunk. Lube all over my legs. I think it's dependent. Today, the dild worried I have gunk on me. Yep, there's gunk. Lube all over my legs. I think it's dependent. Today, the dildo was a three and a half.

Like ever. See, that's insane to me because the dildo is uncomfortable for me. This is TMI, but I don't even wear tampons because tampons are even hard for, like anything that goes in me is like hard. I put on my first tampon when I was 20. I got that colonoscopy and I had my period. And so I had to put on a tampon. Clearly very sensitive. But that being said, the dildo for me is like a four.

But the needle is a 10. Like that is so much more painful to me. It's like 10 dildos. I mean, I don't know if I would take 10 dildos because that would be way more time than like the one. But overall, 10 dildos because that would be way more time than like the one. But overall, 10 dildos. Wow. But then when you gave me my second shot, I thought it's a 1.5. It's a 1.5.

It's a 1.5. I said that in my head and it actually helped. Yeah. It really did kind of just give it less power. Exactly. And just tell myself. It's like with sleep. If you have insomnia, which I've dealt with, you tell yourself like, I'm a great sleeper.

Because the more you talk about the fact that you have insomnia, the more you have it. Yeah. And confirmation bias. Exactly. You're looking for the pain. Yes. Exactly. Just like with your text.

But it's like, stop doing that. One thing I was trying to do this morning was focus on the positive things. Because there's so many positive things. Not just with this one dating situation, but like my whole life right now, like this bed is so comfortable. I get to see Monica every day. I get to like do this with a friend. It is important in those moments. It's not just, oh, I'll feel more hopeful.

It actually helps you change the neural pathways of your brain because you're putting more time into the positive things. And so it's not as easy for your brain to go and focus and make those negative things bigger. Yeah. Which I know sounds like good vibes only. Like it's not. It's really just impactful. Yeah.

Oh my God, your hat. What? Your hat says hormonal. You've just noticed? Have you been wearing it every day? Pretty much. Like it's, oh my God. Oh my God.

Also, there's probably not a moment that is more reflective of me. I am so unobservant of physical things. Interesting. Very. It's a joke because I don't know when people have lazy eyes. There was an incredible person who I went to high school with who had a lazy eye and I knew her well. And like two years later, I was talking about this person and Callie was like, oh, is she the one with the lazy eye? And I was like, no. And she was like, oh, okay.

And then later she was like, no, that is her. She has a lazy eye and it's noticeable. And I was like, oh my God, I never, like I'm not observant. Anyway, so I didn't notice. I feel like you are though. Hyper observant on some things. I'm very observant to emotion and to feelings, but I am not, like, you've been wearing that hat for three days.

On and off, but yes, since the beginning. Yes. And actually, now I'm realizing, because this is probably because I was manic, but that first day, Callie said, like, oh, she said something about your hat, but I didn't even look at the hat when she said it. Because you were so focused on, I mean, I have to also say you've been handling all of the technical elements, planning elements. Like you are doing so much. But it's helpful because it gives me something to do. I know, but it means you're not focusing on what you need. And like, it means you have less ability to do that. And so, and that first night was like, that was the first day it was at night. There were no lights. We're doing our shots in

here, like with breadcrumbs and like cookie crumbs on the table. I told Dax, we recorded our shots for the first episode. He was like, oh my gosh, in the attic? Wow. He's like, the attic is turning into like real laboratory. He's done a drug test in here. He likes to do surgeries on people and stuff. So yeah, so this is a lab. Okay. Can give birth here. We can bring our doula in the attic.

That's so sweet. I was just thinking about, again, it's okay that you feel a bit sad, like for an hour. Yeah. In between wine and spaghetti. Exactly. I was just thinking about, again, it's okay that you feel a bit sad, like for an hour. Yeah. In between wine and spaghetti. Exactly. It was. It was in between wine and spaghetti. Fuck that Mediterranean diet.

I can't. It's not happening. I'm eating kid cereal right now. It's like what I really want. It's like I'm reverting a little bit back to 2020 pandemic. I'm eating a lot of crackers. I have a craving. Are we like making it up?

We're pretending we have cravings, but we're not pregnant. But we have cravings? I don't. Actually, it's really interesting. Do you think cravings is hormones? Don't hormones cause you cravings? Well, that's true because I get sugar craving during my period. Me too.

Oh, so maybe it's real. Okay. Have you, because you said you like ice cream. I do. There's an Italian restaurant called Antico Nuevo. Have you been there? No. It's incredible. And they make these homemade ice creams. There's different kinds, but they normally have like one or two that have a seasonal fruit. Like they make a strawberry

ice cream with Harry's berries. It's insane. I don't know if you've had Harry's berries. It's a strawberry in California. I don't understand it. Like it's so sweet. And like you live here, you pretty much know about Harry's berries. And if you go to the farmer's market, they're sold out immediately. But anyway, they make an ice cream with Harry's berries. They make one with like an apricot and then they have like a cookies and cream and it is so good. And it's just a good restaurant. So we should go there. We should go. That's Mediterranean. It's Mediterranean sea touches a lot of different places that have ice cream. You ran yesterday and you got worried. You just ran. I saw the whole, like you were so confident running down the driveway. And then

the like look of terror. We went to Rob's house because he has COVID and I had to drop off an oximeter to him that checks your oxygen. And he lives right by me and we were on our way to the wine bar. So I drove by and I parked, hopped out and like ran to the front door like I normally would. And then I was like, I'm not supposed to exercise. And I just exercised. That was a big exercise. You bounced. Maybe eight or nine bounces. I got out of breath just walking up to the attic. I know. And I'm usually sporty. But I've been like really, even I do breath work, meditation, which I'm going to be told is bad or whatever, but whatever.

I don't want to know. No. I know. But because I'm holding my breath a lot, you know, so sometimes people are like, but again. No, that's about oxygen to the baby. Yes. Yes. Exactly.

There's no baby. There's no baby. There's a Yes, exactly. There's no baby. There's no baby. There's a lot of eggs. There's no baby. There's eggs but no baby. Are you having baby dreams? No. Wow.

Tell me about that. I've been dreaming a lot about the dogs, which again, because I'm taking care of them and they really need me. Yeah. They need me to feed them and they know I feed them and they follow me around all day. And then sometimes I'm like so excited around and sometimes I'm like, guys, let me eat. Like when you came over and I was like, I'm just, they're very needy right now. It's been a weird, again, rehearsal.

It's a rehearsal. The conversation with Emily has helped me not judge myself when I do need a little break. Yes. And when I do feel there's too many people who need me, even if they're dogs. This is just good life advice for whoever you are in whatever stage of life. It's okay to say there are too many people and things asking for me right now. And I can't meet. I can't meet.

I can't meet those needs. And it's boundaries, right? It's like 100% boundaries. I will say that I feel better now than I did when I walked in. Oh my God. Savor that. Yeah. You did that.

No, you did that. No, you did that. No, you did that. No, you did that. No, you did that. I was just like here to make space. And you, I think, were able to process a lot of things and feelings and new information. And you did that. Look at you. Oh my gosh.

You're such a good cheerleader. Is that a Pisces thing? I don't know. Maybe. You were the cheerleader. I would never. I mean, would you ever? Trust me.

I was a synchronized swimmer. I could do it because if you fall in the water, you don't know this? Yeah. But I never flew because I have long legs. I'm too long. Yeah, you're very tall. So I would be under and I would make people fly. Okay, then you are supporting people. Yeah, but if they fall, they just fall in the water. It's not that bad. It's not that bad. You were a synchronized swimmer. I was. Varsity man. You guys had a team. We did. At your school of synchronized swimming. But I started when I was young and then I stopped because it was demonic. It is psycho. There should be a Netflix show about

the bullying, the drama. No. And like the lack of resources. It's very unregulated would be what I would tell you. I had a dysfunctional childhood. Synchronized swimming fucked me up more. Like the relationship that our coach had with us was insane. It sounds like cheerleading. Yes. Like competition cheerleading. Yes. A lot of drama. And you're not supposed to have fun. Like it's like so disciplined. First, we were at this first pool where like no one gave a shit about us. And we were like the worst. It was great.

We had so much fun because we would never win anything. And then they moved us to the more serious pool. They were the best team in Montreal. And then it was psycho panic attacks. And then I quit. But then I did it again in university at McGill. And then we did varsity. And it was so great.

This is brand new info. Oh my God. You know, I like don't really know how to swim. Wait, what? Well, I do. I actually, I had this thought. This is a ding, ding, ding. Because I had this thought on my drive here when I was feeling, oh my God, my body sucks.

Like it doesn't make eggs. I can't swim. I can't ride a bike. I can't like do anything. I'm like dysfunctional. But I'm over that. You were thinking about that? Well, because I was like, what the fuck is going on?

All these normal things that people can do, like ride bikes and swim and make eggs. Why can't I do it? I can't drive. This morning when you came in, I was like, man, Monica's so cool. She just has a car. Like she just like drives. Okay. She's like getting coffee and like she can do it with one hand.

And I'm like, I can't. I can't drive. I'm 35 years old. Liz. It's like getting coffee and like she can do it with one hand. And I'm like, I can't drive. I'm 35 years old. Liz. It's not normal. No. I'm just telling you, I can synchronize swim. Wow. Great skill to have as a 35 year old adult. It doesn't help me in any way. I can't even live in LA because of that. It's like caused me a lot of issues. Listen to me. Listen, stop. It's not that you can't drive. It's that you didn't learn. Same with you and swimming and riding a bike. No, I learned how to swim. Like I cannot drown, but I'm just not good at swimming and I'm not confident that I cannot drown. I think that's more what it is. Yeah. It's just that I haven't swam in so many years. When I get in the pool, I just like sit on the side or I sit in a hot tub. Yes. So I have lost full confidence that I know how. Yeah. And then riding my bike was the

same thing. We went to Ojai, my girlfriend's, there's this cute bike path that like takes you into town. Our friend Eric was like, let's take the bikes. And I was like, do I know how to ride a bike? I haven't ridden a bike in 15 years. They say it's like riding a bike, but is that made up? And it was half and half. I did ride it. I rode it into town, but then I did have a little almost crash. Again, I would think driving is the same way. Absolutely not. If you stopped driving for 15 years, would you be a little shaky? Of course. Okay. Again, I don't know how to drive.

I don't even know what the pedals do. But, like, I feel like you would be like, oh, whoa. And, like, language, right? Like, French is my first language. Yeah. And when I go back to Quebec, I sound like a prehistoric Neanderthal. Like, I can't really speak it. I forget words or, like, again, because I'm thinking in English. And then a week or two in, it's all back. It's like riding a bike. It's like riding a bike. But again, when I go back,

I'm like, oh my God, I literally can't speak my first language. And I will happily help you with swimming because I was a lifeguard. Like I did the whole thing. And it's so much about technique. With walking, you don't think about like, there's nothing, there's gravity, right? Yeah. And I actually am better in water than I am on land. Like gravity fucks me up. Anyway, so I've seen a lot of people have exact same fear, or again, get in the water. And I'm like, you're using twice as much energy, right? And so you think you're bad at it, because you're sinking, and you're using all this energy when really actually swimming is about minimizing the amount of energy that you're using to go and propel yourself as much as possible.

It can be confusing because you can think this is why I'm bad at it, but it's just that you're literally moving in a way that's making you sink more and spend more energy. And so I'm just saying I'm available if you want to just talk. As my swim coach. I would love to. I would love to. Oh my God. It'll be like the needles. I don't think I'm allowed with my eggs. Yeah. Maybe. To jump in. We should ask. Can we jump in the water? Oh my God. This is so exciting. So exciting. We're not, we're going to wait till after our, after the retrieval. Yeah. Yeah. So all the eggs don't fall out in the water. That's possible. That's what my doctor told me. Yeah. It's definitely possible. Well, I think that's that for our little wrap up of day four.

I'm really grateful for you. This helped so much today. And I hope that if you're going to do this, find a buddy. And you don't have to do what we're doing. You don't have to freeze your eggs at the same time, but have a support. I agree with that. Tell them you're going to be needy. Like, just say it.

I need someone who I can be needy with for these 10 days. Use them for that. Like, have it be a safe person. Oh my God. Like, sometimes I think about Callie doing this by herself and I'm like, I feel some guilt. I would check in with her, but I didn't know. And I wish I did. All to say, it's helpful to have friends. Yes, it is. Okay. So we have a really interesting day. We are going to talk to two people who've experienced some fraud in the fertility world. Fertility fraud. It's a thing. Yeah, it's a thing. We're going to learn all about it. First, we have Eve Wiley, who is awesome. She also was recommended to us by Dov Fox. He's sent so many cool people our way.

She's an advocate for legislation and for reform in the fertility space. And she also has an insane personal story. Oh, my God. I feel like it's going to be twisty. Twisty, turdy, topsy. I'm excited. I have a feeling we're going to get deep into it. So please enjoy Eve Wiley.

Eve, we are so excited to have you. Trigger warning a little bit for anyone going through this process. We're diving into some of the dirtier, darker sides of it and fraudulent sides. And you have a personal story that you're going to share with us. And you're an advocate. You're doing awesome stuff. And you have so much to talk to us about. So can we dive into your personal story first? Okay. So I am from a really small town in East Texas, 5,000 people. It is in the middle of nowhere, country town. Yeah. And this is back in the 80s. And my parents

were struggling with infertility. And so they went to their doctor, Dr. Kim McMorris, who is my mom's OB. And he recommended that they look into donor conception with a donor. So he provided them with this donor list. And this is back in the 80s. So it's not like now where you can shop and add to cart. Is that a thing? Oh, it's all a cart menu now. Read me a fairy tale story.

Let me see your baby pictures for a donor. It is wild how specific you can get, but they're still technically anonymous. So this was the sheet of paper, one line, donor number, physical characteristics, level of education, blood type, and then interest. It's like a Raya profile. But also, I can't even imagine getting this, going through the throes of infertility and getting to that point where you are like, I'm going to pick a donor, but I don't know who the biological father is going to be. And the only way I'm going to pick them is by off the sheet of paper. Yeah. That's like a lot of pressure, right? Exactly. So they did. They went over it. They

circled a bunch. And then they finally circled 106 and started and wrote this one. My mom went through, counted it up. I think it was like nine or 10 inseminations. So every month, go in, defrost the sperm, go through the whole thing, right? And then finally, I was born. Now, my dad also had second infertility male factor. So there was also two things going on there. Okay.

And so I was born, and then they were immediately pregnant again. And this time it was with my dad's biological child. So what happened with him is he had varicose veins on his testes. So he had that surgery reversed. And then my mom thinks it finally just started working to where he was able to produce viable sperm. Y'all, my sister and I, we are so different. We look different. She's got like this dark hair. She's got olive skin complexion, brown eyes. And I was this little toehead, blue-eyed little girl. I mean, just everybody told me I was adopted. Yeah, you have that genetic predisposition of like wanting to know, bewilderment is what it's called,

of really identifying with your genetic identity. So I didn't have that. But then my dad passed away when I was seven. Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. And it was hard. I mean, you're seven years old, you know, you're just really grasping that concept of what is death, right? Oh my gosh. I still don't have a good grasp on it. And I really empathize with my mom because, you know, what do you say to your child that's donor conceived? Well, that's not your real dad because donor conception and

we used to, I mean, it's just, it was too much. But in that moment, she realized that my little sister has a whole other set of issues, like heart conditions, that she now has to have a heart echo for. That's how he passed. From cardiomyopathy. Wow. And so she was wondering with me, well, what do you need to worry about? Exactly. Wait, and so, but you didn't know. She hadn't told you, right? I had no idea at this point. Okay. And my mom, being a nurse, really saw the value of that need to know your medical history. Yeah. In that moment, from that time on, she started collecting stories, trying to, and this was like Yahoo chat days. You know, this is not the Google that we know. And trying to find that information out because when they signed this contract, this was an anonymous sperm donor. Right.

All we had was donor 106. So years go by. I'm 16 years old, small town. My mom's a school nurse at our high school. Oh my gosh. And I got away with nothing, which is why I would get on her email and I would go through her emails and I could delete any emails coming through like, oh, maybe I didn't do too good on a test. That's hilarious. Or I wanted like all the, you know, juicy tea within my cohort. Yeah. I wanted to know everything.

Hot goss. Get in those emails. I was seeing these ones from California Cryobank and it kept saying sperm and donor conception. And at first it wasn't weird because basically grew up on a farm. I'm like, is my mom buying bull sperm for my grandfather for his Charlotte cattle? Like what's going on? So I start clicking and reading. I'm like, oh, and then I get to the bottom of one and it has my birth date. And it says, my daughter doesn't know. I want more information on her. No. Oh. Y'all, this was late at night. And it was like.

Oh, shit. How old are you at this point? 16. Oh. I mean, it ended up being a good thing finding out because now all those times that people told me I was adopted, all of those things where I don't look like anyone in my family, I don't really act like anyone in my family, it all made sense. It wasn't just in my head at this point. Yeah. It's almost like gaslighting in some ways, not on purpose. Like I know she was trying to protect you, but you're like, I know something's

wrong, but nobody's, nobody's validating. I just think you're the crazy one, right? Well, and that's the thing is, I always knew there was a secret. I just didn't know that I was that secret. People who are adopted, people who are born from donor conception and they aren't told, I think that that is how they feel. You think about it,

like your parents treat you differently. It's not conscious. It is subconsciously. My mom was pushing me towards a career, towards interest that reflected who she thought my father was. Really? So where my sisters were all into like science and different types of like sports and things

like that, she pushed me towards tennis. That was his interest. And towards arts and literature and politics. Wow. But I liked science. And so it's interesting to see those subconscious patterns of relations, but then also how people operate around a family secret. Wow. It changes the dynamics of it.

What were things that once you knew the secret was out that you were like, that was weird? What did you internalize from all of that? I noticed that she would really go to great lengths to tell the story of my father and how much he loved me and how I was his favorite. And so really trying to build that connection, yes, that I wouldn't necessarily remember. She was trying to fill in the gaps with that. So it is interesting just to see those dynamics because my mom was carrying that secret. I have so much compassion for her. They did what they absolutely needed to do. And then knowing that you have to kind of carry this secret for you, it's like so heavy. It is. And the doctor

told her, do not tell her. She does not need to know that she's donor conceived. Y'all, that is so wrong. Your genetic identity should never be a secret. Yes. I mean, it is quite literally the only thing that you are born with, your genetics. And so to have someone marginalize that, and I would like to think that we know more now, we have more awareness around this and more understanding and compassion. So I hope that that narrative is changing.

But he told them, it's not important. You're their parents. And then for her to have to carry that secret and then to no longer have that support system with my dad. But she was building this case for years and years and years. And she kept everything. She printed out every conversation. There's a group called Single Mothers by Choice, Donor Selling Registry, all of those Yahoo chat rooms and emails. She would print them off and put them in this big green folder. And her plan was when I turned 18, she was going to hand it to me.

Oh, my. That night, I did not wake her up. But the next morning, she was getting out of the shower, and I just like burst in there. I was like, I can't. I can't believe you went through the night. Yeah. Oh, I was like, Yahoo-ing. I can't even call it Googling. I was Yahoo-ing words, making sure I understood. Oh, and you had to do it on Yahoo. That's terrible. What if Yahoo had won the race? Like, we would be saying Yahoo-ing. I was Yahooing words, making sure I understood. Oh, and you had to do it on Yahoo? That's terrible. What if Yahoo had won the race? Like we wouldn't be saying Yahooing. So I went in there in the morning and I'd practiced this.

I was like, what are the questions I want to know? And just like burst in and I was like, mom, I know Doug is not my dad. And then it was like that slow turn. And she's like, what are you talking about? And then I just told her everything. She's bawling. I'm like, mom, it's okay. 16-year-old me just found out the secret.

But also there was this part of me that was like, oh my God, I still have a dad and I want to find him. It never even occurred to me that the sperm donor, my biological father, he may not even want to know me, which is the case for a lot of donors. I mean, now they're saying 90% of donors are open to contact. But back then it was, you know, there's a little more stigma attached to it than there is now. So I kind of felt bad to say that I was excited. And it was just that, what is it like to have a real dad? Because my dad passed away, you know, that whole thing. But we talked through the whole thing. She explained everything.

And I understood it. And I was very compassionate. I mean, I understand how hard it is now. Being a mother has made me even more empathetic towards her. I'm sure. I'm sure. Did you have any jealousy towards your sister? Learning that also she's not your biological sister is also part of this. And also, where you're like, she gets to be the

daughter of my mom and dad. Like there's just a lot. There is a lot. And you just hit on a really important point. My existence being donor conceived, it can feel very sterile because my parents had never met each other. I was not born out of a moment of passion. It was a very sterile environment. If she's looking and constantly scanning, she doesn't know who my biological father is. There is no connection. She just has me. And I think with my father passing away, Doug,

there wasn't as much of that jealousy. And in fact, it was reversed because what I didn't anticipate is sitting my little sister down and telling her that she's my half-sister. Right. And what I didn't see coming was her crying and saying, well, at least you have a dad. And that was like, oh, 16-year-old naive, like egocentric Eve.

But you're also a child. That's a lot. You're carrying your mom's emotions. You're carrying your sister's emotions. You're not even equipped to hold all of that. Even your frontal lobe isn't even fully developed enough. And that's a good point too, because what I constantly see is people who are adopted or who are donor conceived, that they do carry that burden, that emotional labor of having to really work through the pain of their parent's infertility

and how that affects them and their relationships. And even though it's centered around the child that grows up to be an adult, there are so many wounds that my existence was supposed to fix. But in a lot of ways, it doesn't get fixed. It's just a band-aid. That part with my sister was hard. We worked through all of it. And then we kind of just became like, you know, a team of figuring out who's my daddy. Yeah. I feel like if I sat down with my brother and I was like, so you're my half brother. For one, he'd be like, I knew it. And then also if he said that to me, I would be like, no, that's still my dad though. I would have so much conflicting thoughts. No, that's still my dad. Your dad is still my dad. Yeah, I also have this other thing going on. And that's hard to tease apart because he is my dad.

Yeah. I feel like that's getting removed all of a sudden. There is a sense of loss and grief that I really had to pay attention to because that changed my narrative. And it was conflicting. And I had opposite feelings about this because in one hand, there was a loss and a grief with me being that secret and him no longer being my real dad. But then also, who is my real dad? And I was kind of happy to go on that journey to figure out who that was. And those are really opposing feelings right there. So then I'm 18 and my mom and I, I like read through these letters. They are hilarious. We're like writing doctors. The donor was part of the Baha'i faith here in Los Angeles. We were contacting them. I mean,

I'm like, how many like blonde dudes are in your- Ray Wilson. I mean, I know exactly. I mean, there's like two, right? We're writing them like, does anybody fit this description? And we're just going all sorts of detective. And I contacted California Cryobank, but first they needed my mom's medical records. So I went to my mom's doctor and I made this appointment. And I was like, no, I'm going to go in and do this myself. I have questions. I just want to understand a little more. So I go and I wait forever. The doctor cancels the appointment, but the nurse, I have the signed consent and I leave

with my mom's records. And so I send those to California ChiroBank because they have to verify the purchasing records. So in my mom's notes, it says donor 106 on day 12. This is the conception that took. California ChiroBank looked at their purchasing records, confirming that that doctor did buy that donor. And so that was kind of it. That's how they confirmed it. So then they sent donor 106 this letter to update his medical records. Realistically, I wanted to know who he was.

And I want to know my biological father, but also I really wanted my medical information. That's the least I'm asking for from my biological father is my medical information. Everybody needs that. It took them about a year and they found him. I had this letter ready to go and I sent it to them through email and then they forwarded it to the donor. And his name is Steve. And y'all, he is amazing. He's so wonderful. He responded back. And so we were communicating like that for a little bit. And then we started emailing on our own and calling and it was just so easy. I don't know if it's because he is who he is. I am who I am. He is just this warmth of energy and come what may. And he's just a teddy bear, just a lovable

teddy bear and was just so open. He flew down to Austin. I was living in Austin at the time, and we met for the first time. And it was easy. There was nothing weird or awkward about it. Were you like, yeah, this makes sense? I was like, it absolutely does. I'm looking at pictures of his social children, the ones that he has with his wife. And I'm like, yeah, we look alike. We act alike, same interests. You know, totally made sense. This is 2007. So we never really thought like, hey, we need a DNA test because we look alike. The cryobank says I'm yours. We're good to go.

And it was just working. I started calling him dad. We started saying, I love you. I mean, this is my dad. He officiated my wedding. Every single person in our wedding was bawling. Of course. And I thought it was because how wonderful and beautiful this was.

I later found out that the bartenders were mixing regular vodka was bawling. Of course. And I thought it was because how wonderful and beautiful this was. I later found out that the bartenders were mixing regular vodka with like deep-eddy grapefruit vodka. They thought the grapefruit vodka was a mixer. Everyone was shit-faced. I mean, I'm looking at them like, this is amazing. Everybody knows how special this is until they can't stand up. And I'm like, oh my God, we need pizza now. That's hilarious. I'm sure during the ceremony, it was still because of the emotions. It just elevated it. Yeah. 20 minutes later, it kicks in. It was really intense, but it was so sweet. And his kids came, my brothers and sisters and his wife, and it was very special. And then my husband and I, Blake, then we had children and my kids call him Papa and he visits. And it was very special. And then my husband and I, Blake, then we had children

and my kids call him Papa and he visits. We do holidays together with my mom, by the way. Yeah. So that was fun. Hey, mom, this is dad. Y'all the kid together. You never met. Yeah. What's their relationship like? Y'all, they couldn't be more different if they tried. Really? I mean, here's my mom, little East Texas, like small town, kind of a little sheltered. And then here's Steve who writes over the poet Rumi and travels the world and like does

really cool stuff. So it's just funny to see that, but they have a beautiful relationship now. That's lovely. And I think the most awkward part about the whole experience was them meeting because us meeting was easy. Then we had Hutton. That's my son. He's eight. Right from the get-go, he started having medical issues and he had pyloric stenosis. We were doing all these exploratory surgeries with him. And you look at him now and you're like, what?

I mean, he's so typically developed. I mean, he's doing awesome. But for about four years, we had a whole team of doctors in Dallas. They had no clue what was going on. Wow. So I was somewhere and I was talking to someone who works at Dell Children's and telling them, you know,

what was going on with Hutton. And they were like, hey, we have this functional medicine doctor. When we don't know what's going on, we call him. I mean, you could have told me to go out and stand upside down and do some, I would have done anything to figure out, you know, what's going on with my kid. By the time he was four, he had been under 12 times for some sort of exploratory surgery. And to have these doctors consistently tell me, you're a first time mom, you know, maybe you're exaggerating some of these symptoms. Gaslighting again. I mean, more gaslighting.

Yeah. Like the kid's throwing up every hour and a half. And he didn't have real food until he was four. And he was having all these like crazy allergies to food. It was wild. We go in and this doctor, he's like, I need all of you to do 23andMe plus health. So we all do. And what he was trying to do is he was trying to get the genetic variants of me and

Blake and Hutton to see, is this an absorption issue? Because it kind of made sense, right? An absorption issue. Nothing else medically was working. Around the same time, maybe a little bit before, my sister had given me an ancestry test. So I had sent that off and I have an uncle that's really into genealogy and, you know, it's just like a fun Christmas party favor thing to do. I sit down with this doctor, our profiles are back, and he has not laid eyes on Hutton. It's just me and this doctor. And he goes, so your son has celiac disease. I was like, what? I didn't know what celiac disease was. So then he goes on to tell me about all these like autoimmune disorders and how it's under that umbrella. And then he ends it with, and it's hereditary. So someone in your family has it. It's like, no, pretty sure I would know. I've never even heard of this. No one's

talked about this. So we get Hutton straightened out. He's doing great. All of that stuff. I don't know if you're familiar with the platform, 23andMe. I always knew from talking to California Cryobank that I had half-siblings, but they had told me that I was one of the older ones. So in my head at this time, I was like, man, they're probably like 17, 18. If they even know their donor conceived, they're probably not looking. I was just learning about these platforms. I didn't know what a CineMorgan was. I didn't know how to read these websites. When you are connected with someone and it gives you your predicted relationship, it doesn't come out and say, hey, this is a half-brother or hey, this is a half-sister. It'll say, this could be a close family to first cousin is what it said. And then in that,

the centimorgans are the degree of relatedness that you share with your DNA to that person. You can have all these predicted relationships. This could be an aunt, a half-sibling, a first cousin. You know, there's not a perfect science. It's like a backdrop. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I had been so focused on Hutton being so sick. I wasn't looking for my half-siblings. So I kept getting these emails and it was like, you have a new match. First cousin, first cousin. And finally, I was like, well, that didn't really make sense. My mom has two brothers. They don't have biological children. Steve, dad, he has two siblings. They don't have biological children. Steve, dad, he has two siblings. They don't have biological children.

Oh my God, did I find another family secret? Tell my mom about this. And she was like, hey, Eve, those could be your half siblings. And I was like, why, how? And then we kind of went through the whole thing of what I just went through of who's connected. And so I reached out to them and, which, by the way, how do you start that conversation?

So like, hi, do you want to call me? I think I have some really important information. I'm not crazy. Not the way I did it. Hi, my name is Eve. I think I'm your half sister. Here's my cell phone. Oh, wow.

Oh, my God. And did they all respond? Because if I got that, I'd be like, no. Zero out of 10. Don't recommend doing it that way. Don't do it. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, they did.

Really quickly. They did. And one of them already knew. They were donor conceived. But then these, you know, here come these red flags. So I talked to one. He's 13 years older than I am. Okay.

But I'm like, what does it matter? Because I know who my biological father is. Like, that's kind of weird. Something doesn't make sense there, but it doesn't matter. But what I was focusing on was my relationship with dad was very unique. I never wanted to project my experience, my relationship on another half-sibling. I didn't want them to think that that was a status quo. And so I didn't want to be the little cheerleader over here. He's so amazing and wonderful. And like, he's the best dad ever. Yeah.

Let's have a family reunion. This is gonna be great. If they weren't comfortable with that. That's kind. I called dad and I was like, hey, do 23andMe. That way y'all at least have a platform of connection. You're on there. And then you guys can message and figure out what you want.

Because what I have noticed is that people who are donor conceived, if they have the recipient parent that was infertile, if they are still alive and they're still really close with them, they're not as willing to really honor that desire to know their biological parent because they feel like it could threaten the relationship with their dad without openly recognizing that, hey, there's space for everybody. And it depends on how the parents react, right? Because we aren't children anymore. We are now adults. And really honoring and respecting that you can have adult conversations and you can have opposite feelings about things. I was very aware of that and I didn't want to impose on people. He gets his test

and he takes it. And then I tracked down this one half brother. And I mean, dude's not on social media. Red flag. I mean, man, real hard. I'm like, I like figure out where he lives. I'm like on the tax appraisal district typing his last name. You're a PI. At this point, yeah, you know how to find people. No one's anonymous anymore. Yeah. Thank you, commercial DNA testing. So I finally track him down on LinkedIn. And it was kind of the same message.

It was late at night. And he was like, well, I think it would be a little hard to explain to my wife that I'm in bed right now. And I need to get out of bed and go call another woman who just contacted me on the internet. Good man. I was like, that's cool. No big deal. So I think I'm your half sister. Here's my cell phone number. 10 seconds later. All right, you have my attention. Yes. Oh my God. I know. So just, you know, just drop that bomb in there. I'm not patient enough.

Either am I. I need it. So we got this whole thing. He's not buying it. He is like, I am a dad's. I look like him. I look like my brother. This is so typical when you don't know your donor conceived. And then I feel like I'm the bearer of bad news, right? Yeah. So I was like, all right, okay, let me just, I'll humor you with this. So we get on our computers. We're looking at the thing, close family to first cousins. We're looking at the Cinnamorgans. And he's like, well, I think of your first cousin. Okay. Then tell me about your uncles, because your uncle is my biological father. And he said, well, I only have one uncle. And oh, he's actually from your area. His name is Ken McMorris. My world stopped. And in that

moment, I knew exactly who that was, because that was the hero in my conception story. That was the man who was able to literally get my mom pregnant and give them a baby. Oh my God. That was my mom's fertility doctor. And for the third time in my life, I'm starting over with who am I? And all of a sudden, my beautiful fairy tale story

with my beautiful family and everything, it wasn't true. Again. Again. I'm so sorry. I really am. You're sweet. Thank you. It sucks.

But it wasn't going to be a happy story because I knew that what I had with dad, Steve, donor 106, was not going to be what I was going to have with my real biological father. It was being replaced with something completely different. And so in that moment, I really had to decide. I mean, I got two choices here. I can pretend like I never figured this out,

or I'm going to have to come forward with this, and I'm going to have to tell everybody. I didn't want to do that. But I knew that there was no way that I was going to be able to live my life in an authentic way without transparency and without truth. You would just be perpetuating another secret. Right. That my kids would feel. It no longer became just about me. My child suffered because I didn't know the truth. Stay tuned for more if you dare. Race to 35 is sponsored by BetterHelp.

Unfortunately, life doesn't come with a user manual. Man, that'd be so great if it did. So when life isn't working for you, it's normal to feel stuck. And I know that when I'm navigating my life challenges, whether it's career or a new relationship or thinking about becoming a parent and all the steps involved with that, therapy is so helpful because it can help you challenge the emotions that you're feeling, understand yourself and other people. It's just so great. Yeah. I feel like 90% of our conversations start with in therapy. My therapist told me. It's so, so helpful.

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water every day. That's it. No need for a million different pills and supplements to look out for your health. To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one-year supply of immune-supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com slash race235. Again, that is athleticgreens.com slash race235 to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. My mom was upstairs when I found this out. You're in your mom's house? No, we were on vacation.

We were in Colorado. God. And my in-laws were there. And my sister was there. I struggled with this part because just imagine telling your mom, and this is a trigger warning, medically raped. Yes. And she's figuring this out 30 years later by a man that she trusted.

And then having to go to my dad, Steve, and tell him I'm not his real biological daughter. And then me having to really process this whole thing of my existence is causing so many people, the people that I love so much, so much pain. And there's not a therapist or a doctor that specializes in something like this. There's not a blog. There's a podcast now. And to really like find that common ground of who has been through this before. And so I had to do a lot of internal processing around genetic identity and just around identity and narrative therapy to separate myself from this in a healthy way to get through it because the deception around my conception has hurt so many people. And it's not like something I did that I am reaping the consequences of something that I

did. I'm just like the bystander in it. And that was another thing. With donor conception and stuff, felt kind of like a product. They shopped to get me that type of thing. So it really kind of fed this weird thing too of like, I'm a product here. Oh my gosh. So it was bad. I mean, I went upstairs and they were watching I, Tonya. And so I like go up to mom, I'm like, mom, I need to talk to you. She's like, what? Can you wait till the movie's over? I was like, no, I can't. They're like, is everything okay? And it was just, it was being 16 again. Steve's not my biological father. She's like, what? And my poor in-laws are like, what is happening right now? Oh my God, the trauma that you've gone through. It's so much. There is a lot of trauma around it. And I have never seen anybody in shock before. My mom was in shock to the point

where my husband was like, do we need to call an ambulance? She's shaking. She's asking the same questions. She's not retaining any of that information. So then my father-in-law stands up and he's like, I'll go make a drink. Does anybody else want one?

I'm like, just bring it all in here at this point. It took days. She was coming up with everything. He wouldn't do this. He is a good Christian man. He is a pillar in our community. He wouldn't do this. He is a good Christian man. He is a pillar in our community. He would never do this. There is another explanation for this.

So she really knew him. Yes. We were from a small town. People from, I don't know, upwards of like 90 miles would come to him. Because when you're in rural America, there's not a hospital. She was driving 30, 35 miles for every insemination, for every checkup, for everything. The hospital's 30. He delivered me.

Oh my. Have y'all seen that picture? No. Show us. It is wild. Here it is right here. That's you? That's me.

And that's my biological father. It was always there. The answer was always there. He's the only one that knew the secret. Wow. And how many times did he do this? Exactly. So you're left with all these questions. Now I have more questions than I do answers. And I'm not getting anywhere close to it. So we go through the whole thing. I call attorneys. They call us back and they're like, so yeah, there's like nothing. I'm like, what do you

mean there's nothing? Like emotional distress. I'm like listening to all those things. And they're like, there's nothing because we don't have regulations in this industry for the fertility industry. Are you kidding? There's nothing you could sue him for? Nothing.

I don't have a civil cause of action or a criminal cause of action. You have informed consent issues. What? My parents consented to the procedure, just not to the reproductive material because there wasn't an informed consent. Even though I have the medical records, he had destroyed his. So there was nothing to enter into discovery to compare it. You have a seven-year statute of

limitations in Texas. Also standard level of care. We were never going to be able to get around the 10-year medical board liability act. Most discovery rules are about two years. No discovery rule. What's a discovery rule? What does that mean? So whenever you figure it out, you have two years. So with medical malpractice claims, you have two years to file that complaint. Yeah. Oh my God. So we didn't have that. So then I start to really dig into this more. And touching back on that narrative therapy part, I had to find a purpose in the pain because I had no control over how I was born. I had no control of the trauma that my family had endured around this and me. And to really deeply process

that my existence was that, that's so hard. So I had to really work in that narrative therapy piece and I didn't start it, but I had the control to figure out what I was going to do with it. I didn't want to come forward. That is so impressive. I just want to take a second for like, that's so brave and so impressive and like so strong. It feels like every time that you went through the trauma of learning new information, like you really did always turn it into this kind of sense of responsibility for others. Like, did you feel like there was a greater purpose for this to be happening to you and what you were going to do with it? Absolutely.

And I really think that I pulled that strength from my mom because I grew up watching her fight her way out of all kinds of unfavorable circumstances. And so I think that that was just something I could do. She could not fight this fight. I felt like I had to, but it also felt like you got to name it to tame it. And the only way to heal it is you have to feel it. I could not compartmentalize this. And even though I knew I'd get a lot of backlash and I knew the community would not support me, I knew the community would support him. I still wanted to do it anyway.

Oh, do you want to read something else real quick? Should I read it aloud? Yes, please. There's another doctor in Nacogdoches, and he posted this on his Facebook. There is a woman that wrote a letter to the editor for the local newspaper, and he reposted that. This is what he said.

I wasn't there in 1987, but I worked side by side with many patients with Dr. McMurray's for the last 15 years. Never a problem. Has always done an outstanding job and our patients have loved him. He has always given great guidance and friendly, compassionate care. I think the community has been blessed by his service for as long as I have been in practice and many years more. And as a side, that young lady is smart, intelligent, and beautiful, isn't she? Must have good genes. The issue should not define an outstanding 40-year career. Y'all, this is a doctor that is writing this. That is so offensive and disgusting. It's horrible. I am not talking about being happy to be alive or being grateful to be alive. Of course, I'm happy to be alive. I am not talking about being happy to be alive or being grateful to be alive. Of course,

I'm happy to be alive. I am talking about the deception around my conception. I am talking about consent and how we still have people today that believe that they know better for someone else's body and they get to insert themselves and make those decisions when they shouldn't be able to make those decisions. This is about consent. A doctor cannot make these decisions for their patients. And in two days age, this right here. So Joyce is her name. The title is Outrageous Treatment of Respected Doctor. And Joyce is just some lady in the community?

In the community. This is her letter to the editor. To use the words scandal and fraud in your headlines in the Sunday, May 5th, 2019 papers article regarding Dr. Kim McMorris is outrageous. While I respect Eve Wiley's quest to find her paternal parentage, her inquiries and emotional response was the prime point of your articles. What about giving Dr. McMorris a respected, knowledgeable doctor, an upstanding Nacogdoches citizen, and faithful

member of his church for decades, and equal and unbiased representation. Your coverage of Ms. Wiley's emotional state and angry response to the situation was given much more space than Dr. McMurray's explanation. He answered her letter with compassion and gave her the facts that he had, that her mother does not remember the events as Dr. McMurray's written records is unfortunate, but it does not constitute fraud. Dr. McMurray's is an example of the best that the medical profession has. He has given his life to caring for women's health issues, and I'm sure if you were to ask a majority of the women in Nacogdoches, you would find his name mentioned as their doctor or they know of him, and you would be hard-pressed to hear of anything but the highest regard for him. He would not jeopardize

his patients or his ethical commitment to this profession by doing something that was illegal. He was forthright about his actions and did not disobey the law. He explained his action to Ms. Wiley's mother, but obeyed the law of a sperm bank donor anonymity. He covered nothing up. At the end of a long and caring career, this is happening to him. Where is the admiration and appreciation of him as a citizen of Nacogdoches by this paper and in this article published? The fact that he is a conservative Christian man does not fit in the model of media's liberal biased manner nowadays, even in small town America. What is his possible rebuttal or explanation

that she's so convinced is factually correct? Well, so I think that she probably went to the church sermon that his pastor gave about how I'm the devil. And this was the Lord's plan and he did nothing wrong. You know, it's interesting. There's like this media blackout for that area. A lot of them won't run it because they're, I mean, they're afraid. He's powerful. The church is powerful. This pastor is powerful. We're seeing

people standing up and protecting abusers. So I confronted him and I needed it to be in writing. And this was at the same time that I had decided if this is not a crime, if there is not a civil cause of action in Texas, then I'm going to make it one. So I started lobbying and working with legislators to criminalize this fact pattern. And it was the very first state in the United States to make a doctor doing this a sexual assault. Yes. Wow. So in between there, I needed everything in writing because y'all, I still had this like fairy tale princess of like, well, maybe everything's going to work out. And I

at least need to extend the olive branch and be like, okay, if this is the thinking at the time, it was wrong. So maybe you and I on a path to healing can do this together. We can rise above this and we can work on this, and we can change it. And that was the only path I saw. And I knew he wouldn't do it, but at least I felt like I had to offer it. The daddy wound, right? Like, still want a daddy. Oh, man. I don't think I've ever met someone this strong to withstand all of that. So I want it in writing, and I don't want him to know that I have my mom's medical records because I really just want to hear an unbiased account of his. And undefensive. And

undefensive. Like I don't want to be defensive. So I write this like certified letter and send in the HIPAA release form. And he writes back. And for a man that doesn't have his medical records, he sure did put on a little smoke show for me. It's just smoke and mirrors. It's like this Mylux cup of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I don't need to know what kind of sperm cup thing you used. I need to know why you used your own

and how I'm related to you. Yes. So then he launches in this whole thing about, well, donor 106 wasn't falling correctly. I'm like, so I don't know, maybe a good conversation you could have had with your patient to see if she wanted to do anything different. He goes, it appears that you may have inherited some of my genetics. I don't know, like 50%. I'm just used to talking

to people that he can gaslight and talk around. And that they trust them, they're authorities, they're untouchable. And those are the most scary abusers. And so then he says that he went back to his medical school days, which would have been about 12 to 13 years before I was conceived. And he was a sperm donor at medical school. So he went back and he got his old straws of sperm.

Okay, so then what was your donor number? Because it's all de-identified, but he couldn't give me a donor number. Well, then how did you get them? You're just going to go pick up your dusty sperm files and bring them back. I mean, you drove them three hours. Like, were they in a cooler? Like, how did you? Lots of holes in the story here. So obviously, didn't really make sense. And then he ended that letter with, it was a pleasure and a gratifying experience for him to be able to deliver a healthy baby girl to my parents. And then he ended that letter with, it was a pleasure and a gratifying experience for him to be able to deliver a healthy baby girl to my parents.

And then if I ever wanted to come to Nacogdoches and meet with him and his son, my half-brother, who's in practice with him. Wow. Is this the one you talked to? No, this is a different one. Right, he's the uncle. Okay.

Yeah. Very well. So, and the story kept changing for him. He's kind of admitting to it. It's like he's saying the sperm didn't thaw well. Well, he's dot, dot, dot, ellipses. Like, it's worse than that, right? Because he's saying it happened, but I did this for you.

Right. You're welcome. Yeah. My response was poking holes in his story. And then he said that he talked to a former professor and they were recommending that they mix sperm. Even though in my medical record, it says just donor. There are parts that say AIM, which is artificial insemination mixture. This one specifically said AID, artificial insemination by donor. Yeah. So there was no mixing. And no conversation.

Yeah. So there was no mixing. And no conversation. He's just doing it. But let's get real clear about 1980s. This is 1986. And there's no cell phones. You're in rural America.

My mom's driving 30, 35 minutes. She gets a flat tire. You're not going to defrost the sperm and let it go bad. You're going to wait until they're in the office, right? So she comes in. If he does thaw the sperm out or if he uses a fresh sample, he preps her cervix for an IUI. He goes into the next room. He masturbates to procure the sample, comes immediately back in and deposits his sperm inside of her, digitally penetrating her. And so it just gets like grosser. The more you like dig into it, just grosser and grosser and grosser. So he never

admitted to fresh sperm with me, but in one of my sister's charts, it does say fresh sperm and she's my half sister. What do you mean? Wait, what do you mean? In her medical notes, it says fresh versus frozen sperm. So he's done this many, many times. There's including his social children. There's 13 that we know of. Those are just the people who have tested. I mean, I've found people on Facebook that I grew up with and asked them to test. They are my half-siblings. We have very defining features. For starters, I'm the shortest. I'm like the little chihuahua. All the girls are over six feet. The boys are six, two to six, seven. We have these like eyes and a little like asymmetry right here.

We have very defining features. Okay. I want to circle back really, really quick to Joyce. Obviously, that's so painful to read and horrifying. But I think part of what it is, is it is actually incomprehensible to think someone's that monstrous. Like, it is really hard for people to wrap their head around the fact that someone could do something like that to someone else and then

add on the fact it's someone you know. Right. And they have those personal connections that is so different from what this other person is reporting. Exactly. And I think we all have big blind spots when it comes to people in our lives. And the truth is anyone can do bad things. Like people do bad things and everyone's kind of capable and to shut that off and be like, no, they would never. It's like, you can't do that. And often it is women too, right? You wonder, well, how could a woman say that to you, right? How could women even shame rape victims and perpetuate rape culture? And often it's because it's more unbearable to women. Of course. There are men who do this. Right. It's a scary truth.

One thing that I think doesn't get talked a lot about, and I think your story really highlights, is that in 20% of rapes, the victim will say, and these are man to women rapes, the woman will say that the man tried to get her pregnant. Often there's reproductive coercion, which is not even a term I think we're even familiar with where we know sexual coercion. But in 20% of reported cases of rape, the woman says that he tried to get her pregnant because he refused to put on a condom. So insemination, reproduction can be an extension of that sexual coercion. It is power, right? But I don't know. Is it this like narcissistic part? Is it this God complex? For all these doctors, which by the way, I've identified over 60 doctors in the US who have done this. There is a survey out of the 80s, 2% of doctors, 2%,

had self-reported using their own sperm instead of a donor sperm. And those are just the ones that self-reported it. They like, they don't even think it's it. They did it? So I think you may want to like add a zero to the end of that. Like, yes. And that's because it's not illegal. They can self-report. Because they can. They can hide behind donor anonymity because anybody can say, well, I'm an anonymous sperm donor.

No, you're not. You're the doctor. You're not the donor. It comes back to the Larry Nassar thing, right? Of like when you go in a doctor's office, like you're just completely vulnerable. You're putting your entire self into the hands of this person and to think that there's nothing that would protect you. Especially in the U.S. when everything's so regulated.

Yes, you can sue anyone. You can sue someone for giving you hot coffee. For anything. But when it comes to this. Well, that was a little deeper than they make it seem to be, but to be fair, she got really bad burns. Oh, but so I'm Canadian. And when I was little, when we'd play kind of restaurant

and like my sister would be like, I'm suing you. Like that was our way to, like I'm suing you. And that's what Americans are known for. That was, because that's all I would see on American cartoons even. Well, we did do an episode of Flightless Bird about suing. It is such an American thing, but you can't sue. Because our courts, they will not recognize that having a baby is harm.

Right. You see what I'm saying? They think it's a gift. Rock full birth does not fit into this. There is nothing that this fits into. You can't quantify it, right? You wanted a baby. You got a baby.

But also, if I go buy a Ford pickup and you give me a Toyota, I can sue you for that. It's insane. I mean, the courts just don't know what to do with it. And there's just nothing written because our laws are so far behind. But going back to the doctor, what I see in these doctors is a God complex. And when you think about it, when God fails and cannot give these people a baby, I play God. I am God. I give them a baby. That's powerful. I think it's a lot of different things. I think it's the fact that he was making money. I think it's the God complex. I think it's the narcissism. I think that he was tall and good looking and he was smart. Who wouldn't want to have my genes? In fact, when I asked him for the

medical records, he sent me back this letter that was just like a brag sheet on a social kid and their Ironman and all this kind of stuff. I had already tracked down his former nurses and had talked to him. He didn't tell me about the melanoma that ran in the family. He didn't tell me that one of my brothers had a brain tumor. He didn't tell me some pretty important things. One of the brothers has ulcerative colitis or something, all within that autoimmune disorder thing. So from there, it didn't end well, obviously. I told him I was coming forward because I also felt this like big sense of,

what if I have another half sibling that has a child or they themselves are struggling with some medical thing and I have the answer for it? Yes. It was no longer just about me and about my son. If he wasn't going to help me or tell me who my biological half-siblings are, then I'd have to come forward.

And America loves a good Jerry Springer-Morris story. I do. Here's here. You are the father. And that's how I found a lot of them. And the day I remember, we were actually back in Colorado, and I connected with a half-sister, and he was her doctor. So fortunately, he did not deliver her kids

because she thought he was getting older and wanted to go to a younger doctor. But I mean, y'all, he gave her vaginal exams, breast exams for her. Her biological father didn't know and has the audacity to gaslight her. She's in the medical community. It's so bad. But when she told me that she lost a little boy that was five months old, my heart broke because what she was describing was Hutton, the stomach issues, all of the things. And it could have been sins. It could have been other things. I couldn't help but wonder, oh my God, if we would have figured this out a year before, would her little baby still be here? I mean, there are so many unintended consequences to this. And then to have another sister, and he delivered both of her children, and she got her DNA results,

the confirmation, after our brother did an emergency hysterectomy on her. So she's in the hospital with the DNA, talking to ICE, and she has to have a follow-up with her brother that just did her surgery and then finding out her biological father delivered her children. This is too much. All of her pictures with her, you know, that wonderful, amazing experience

is now tainted. It's very fucked. It gets worse and worse. And you're one of the very few people fighting to have these laws changed, right? Yes. And so many people reach out to me and they say, this happened to me. And I didn't really have a person like that. And so it was really important for me. And again, probably central to like my healing is to be that person

to, this is what I did. Here are your options. What I tell them is you have to decide. You can come forward with your story. We can work on legislation. We can get bills passed. Or unfortunately, the only way to hold them accountable is through a nondisclosure. Money will never make this right, but it is one way because you can pay for therapy. You can take time off work, but you have to suffer in silence with it. That's not complete, y'all. That's not cool. And the doctors get to practice. So California, when I started in 2018, was the only state that had some sort of fertility fraud legislation. And this was stemming out of a 1990-something case with Teresa Erickson and some doctors that

were stealing embryos and selling them. Oh my gosh. So they had something in place. At the same time, Jacoba Ballard from the Netflix documentary, she was working with some of her siblings in Indiana to get a bill passed, but it was a civil cause of action instead of a criminal cause. So at the same time, Texas and Indiana, a week apart, passed. So from there, I met this amazing senator, Senator Book, and she's just such a wonderful person, champion for women's rights. And she wanted to do this. And I had this case in Florida and they settled with a nondisclosure. The son died and had a baby on the way. It was this whole thing. But I was able to

use that story anonymously and go talk to legislators. I was like this pregnant testifying in Florida. Oh God. So we got Florida passed and then worked with some victims in Florida. Oh, God. So, we got Florida passed and then worked with some victims in Colorado. So, Colorado was next. And then from there, all victim-led, Arkansas, Kentucky, Utah, Iowa, we ended up at 10. This is where I'm super excited because this timing is so crazy. Simulation. I mean, as of like two hours ago, we officially have federal fertility fraud legislation. And what that means is that we don't have to work state by state anymore. So Representative Bice out of Oklahoma,

she has filed this. And it's a creative bill because it's a sexual assault, which is what this is. Yes. And it also pulls in like the RICO statute and it offers civil and criminal causes of action as well as prison time. I'm really excited to have this kind of blanketed thing. Now, I will tell you, I don't think doctors

are doing this today. I really don't. I think that with commercial DNA testing, they would be really stupid, but it still doesn't mean it shouldn't be illegal. Exactly. And a lot of our legislators, if you were to line them up and say, hey, I want all of y'all to tell me how a woman's body works. Oh, come on. Please. That's what I've been dying for. I'm dying for journalists to just ask, like, what does an IUD do? Just tell me how birth control works.

How many fallopian tubes? What's the difference between IUI and IVF? Our legislators, unless they are doctors or women who have gone through or their husbands who have gone through fertility treatments, they generally don't know. gone through or their husbands who have gone through fertility treatments, they generally don't know. But we are asking them to legislate and to regulate this. And so the other important part of this legislation, bills can do more than just pass and do what they're supposed to do. This raises awareness. Because I go in there and depending on the office, I mean, I sit down, I'm like, okay, so sperm, sperm, sperm. They're like, oh my God, how do I get this girl?

But also I'm able to give them a foundational education. I get to talk about things like affinity groups. I get to talk about adoptees. Why can't they have open adoption records? Why can they not have their genetic identity? I get to talk about issues

about donor conception. Like, oh, hey, did you know in the US that there's no donor caps? And in fact, the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, ASRM and SART, they are a professional organization. You are not required to do any of their guidelines. People don't know that. That is just, we recommend this. You decide if you want to follow this or not. They also say as a donor conceived person that you can have 25 offspring per 800,000 people in the population.

You do that math, I could have over 10,000 half-siblings in the U.S. and still be considered biodiverse. When you go in and you're selecting a donor, there's no donor caps. You have no idea the amount of live births. If they say that there's 10, bullshit. They have no way of tracking it. So I go and like word vomit on legislators to like, you know, raise awareness of this. It's also really important because the time is here. The time is now. Our technology with overturning road versus way, with everything kind of coming together, we are at that boiling point. We have

to start doing this. And the legislation has to be centered around the people it's creating. Yes. And if you do not do that in their best interest, then we are devaluing human life here. We really are. Did you know that nail salons are more regulated than the fertility industry? Oh, this is the worst thing I've ever heard. I don't want to hear that right now. Did you know the cattle industry tracks genetics better than the fertility industry. There's nowhere to report any of this stuff.

Also, did you know that one in five clinics were found to have mislabeled, misdiagnosed, and mishandled reproductive material? No, that's one in five? There is this company called Fertility IQ. They're trying to fill in this gap that exists. It is a platform. So they send out surveys and all this kind of stuff. They had one in 2016. So it's a little bit ago. 18 to 24% of people that

responded, they reported that they had some sort of error in IVF, in storage, in retrievals, in all of it. Mislabeling. But that's pretty consistent. When you look at medical malpractice, it's about 20 to 21%. Is it? Yes. And here's what happens. ASRM, SART, they can get off by being like, that's not really true. There's less than 1% because there's nothing backing it up. So they can say things like that. We were at a dinner party and I was telling Monica about this. My friend just was like, oh yeah, my friend froze her eggs and they just lost. She's 50.

Yeah. And they lost them soon. She's never going to have kids. Think about this. So if we have 12.4% of the U.S. population that's struggling with infertility, then you add single mothers by choice.

You add LGBTQ community. Now you're in the upper 20%. Yeah. These people are going to start freezing eggs. They're going to start embryos. So now these tanks are getting bigger

and bigger and bigger. And our answer is to write it down on pencil in a big old book. Oh, I can't. I can't. Like that Harry Potter world of like storage.

But then also you need to know like is your alarm on? Because to your friend's point, that alarm wasn't on. When that tank failed, all they had to do was have the alarm on. Did they have a backup generator? No, because they're not required to. Like, we are creating human lives here. Our doctors need to do better and they will not have that responsibility unless we put it on them. And it's like, we're either over-regulated or under-regulated, right? Like there's over-regulation in obvious ways right now,

but then in this other way, it's like, you're on your own. Yeah, but you figure it out. You ask the questions, you come up with it. You do the research. Again, emotional labor, it is usually up to a woman to do. And the over-regulation and under-regulation all adds up to no protection for the female body, though. It's the same outcome.

Oh, 100%. Yes. And again, there's over-regulation because they don't see childbirth as the single most dangerous thing a woman can do. Exactly. Globally, for girls, it's the number one leading cause of death, pregnancy. It's extremely expensive in America to do it. It is. And to think that even legally, not just morally and sort of culturally, we're told like life is a gift, that even legally, that's just so disturbing.

Well, the industry is concerned with the existential transaction of just getting someone pregnant. Once someone is pregnant, they did their job. It's done. They're not worried about the complicated things that follow after. And then you do get all those marginalizing things. Well, you wanted a baby, you got one. You wanted a baby, you got one. You didn't want a baby, you got one. You got one. Yeah, exactly. So have you talked to your kids about this at all?

Yes. Your son. So my son came home and I don't know, he like heard something from a kid at school or I don't know what it was. And he was like, mom, is that the bad daddy? And I was like, oh, it's time for the talk. I've been really ready for this. The daddy. Yeah, the daddy. Ah, yes. Hashtag daddy. Oh, that is now added as a hashtag. Hashtag daddy. Hashtag daddy. I'm really glad you did. And I think it's really good for boys, especially to like be aware of the way a lot of men have exploited women. And so that they know like,

that affected my mom. I can't do that. I can't repeat that. And it opens the door for conversations around consent. And you know, those deeper issues that don't always naturally come up. I wanted my girls to know that if something like this happens to you, that victim side of it doesn't have to define you. And you have the power and the voice to do something and that can help someone else. And so

I never wanted to have a moment when they were older and to have to talk with regrets of, I wish I could have done something. I wanted them to see that no matter what it is, like you can find a purpose in the pain. And that's healing. And that is rising above. And that's working through it in a healthy way that's not compartmentalizing. And so that was really important to me to be able to show that to my kids too. I'm so grateful you've been part of this push. You made real change. That's so amazing. It's incredible. Thank you guys. I appreciate it. For so many women and men.

That's like the hero's journey, the definition of like, you don't want it, right? You're like, no, I don't want this. But then you've stepped into it in just a marvelous way and you're helping so many people. Well, I appreciate you guys. I watched a lot of Legally Blonde. Thank you, Elle Woods. Thank you. I was not ready. I knew it was going to be full of twists and turns, but I did not expect that many. Yeah. I feel like we just got downloaded with a lot of really important information. I mean, this is stuff you do need to be thinking about because it's so crazy that you can't sue. It's wild that it is not a crime because you got the baby like you got what you wanted. You got a baby. Be happy. Yeah. It's like if you're going out, you want to meet someone in a bar and you get assaulted and they're like, well, you wanted to get laid. It's like, no, not that way. And that's not what I want.

It's wild. She's amazing though. I'm so happy there's someone out there fighting for all of these people who have no advocate. I feel so lucky that we got to talk to her. And we do have one more interview today. We talked to Bea. Bea also has a story in the similar vein.

I actually know Bea personally. So I've heard bits and pieces of the story before. It's also wild, and I think will be a really interesting perspective on how to cope with some of these family secrets that get revealed. So let's hop into Bea. We appreciate you sharing this story with us. It's a great story. It's a good story. And it's an impactful story.

B, I know you. And I sat next to you at a party and you laid this all out there. And I wish I had a recording. I'm sure I was just like mouth agape the whole time, which I'm sure you get all the time, by the way. It's the best cocktail party story. People like at work bring me to like client meetings just so I can tell the story and warm up the room. But the crazy part about my story is that it's so common these days.

Exactly. Whenever I tell it, someone's like, oh, my God, my cousin's best friend. Like, you know, there's always someone else who they know. So I'll just start kind of at the beginning. I took one of those wonderful DNA tests, the ones that come in a kit. I was less interested in my family. I have a very close-knit family. I know them all very well. I was more interested in kind of my medical history and just finding out, is there anything I need to kind of be wary of? So that being said, I got my results and quickly like scrolled through. And you come from two parents that are

still together? My mom and dad are happily married. I was raised in a family of two kids, me and a sibling. And then my dad had actually had kids from a previous marriage. So it was my dad's second marriage and my mom's first marriage and had a very wonderful, normal, above average upbringing. Never really thought twice about it. I will say that there are points in my life, which I don't know if other people go through this, because I can only say from my perspective, where I would sometimes look at my father and say, what do I have of his? And I was constantly looking for that. Like, is it our thumbs? Are they the same? Literally, like I don't see myself in him. We're very similar personality wise, which people would always say,

but I really couldn't see any of the familiar traits, like just looking at him. It was crazy. Look at his toenails. Like I was looking for anything. And I just kind of did that my whole life. And I wonder if other people do that with the way you're nodding. I'm assuming that's probably not the case, but I was always kind of looking because I did, I did look so much like my mom in many ways. Like I could definitely see that. So that being said, I never thought anything of it. I had a great family, very close-knit. I took a DNA test and was scrolling through the results of all the diseases I was cleared of. And it said, do you want to opt into your family tree? And I actually thought about it.

And I said, well, I know my family. I know them all very well. We're very close-knit. And I also knew that none of my half-siblings from my dad's first marriage, they weren't on the site. I knew that my real sibling wasn't on the site. And so I don't know what prompted me to click yes, but I did. And immediately there were seven or eight half siblings that popped up and I quickly scrolled the names and didn't recognize any of them. In fact, none of the family names that I had known or been familiar with in terms of my family, there's been a couple. In fact, none of the family names that I had known or been familiar

with in terms of my family, there's been a couple of last names, kind of different sectors of the family. And like those names were not present. So I was so taken aback. Who are these people? And in my head, I was like, oh, well, you know, we must be cousins, even though it said half sibling, but I couldn't wrap my head around that. And immediately these people start messaging me on the site and they start reaching out and I am completely kind of weirded out by it. My first instinct is obviously they want my organs because of course that's what everyone thinks when they reach out to you on the site. But I'm like, if there's a genetic match, they clearly want my organs. It was so weird to me. It's just such a mind fuck.

Is that a thing, though, that people want your organs? Only in my crazy paranoid state. Okay, got it. I just wanted to know if there's something I didn't know about. In my own crazy world, this is where my head goes. I don't think it's normal or commonplace for anyone else to think this, but that's my instinct. Because obviously, they want my organs.

I love how your brain works. 100% paranoid and a hypochondriac so there you go. Ditto. Hence me taking the test in the first place and I wanted to know

exactly what diseases I was going to get and I needed to prepare. So, you know, I actually tried madly to get off the site and I couldn't figure out how to like disable my profile

and like could I change my name? What could I do to like make myself anonymous? Because it just felt really overwhelming. I kind of let it go for a day or so. And then one of the women finds me on Instagram and Instagram friends me. And we have some friends in common.

We're both at the time living in New York, both Jewish. And she seemed somewhat similar to like my circle. Obviously our circles were intertwined with mutual friends. So I accepted the friend request and she immediately reached out and say, Hey, could you hop on the phone? And I was kind of weirded out. I was like, okay, fine. And we got on the phone and we quickly started talking about why I took the test. And I explained someone had given it to me and I have this like crazy curiosity about my health. And she explained that her husband's ex-wife, who actually she's very close with,

was adopted and was looking for her biological family. And so in solidarity, she decided to take the test with her. So she took the test, not really thinking she was going to uncover anything. But she said that through her journey, which had been kind of a year and a half or two years, she has uncovered that she believes she's a product of a sperm donor and she thinks I am as well. What does that feel like to be on the receiving end of that call? I didn't believe it. I immediately thought, clearly my father donated sperm. It's almost like watching a movie. Like, you aren't able to comprehend reality.

Like, you just are like, well, that's clearly not true. And how could that be? And so immediately I said, I think my father was a donor. I need to go. I need to call my mom. And we'll talk another time. And I basically hung up on her. Just some background.

I have two kids of my own. And I had always grown up knowing that my parents had a hard time conceiving me. They were very open about that, that I was desperately wanted and that they had some trouble. And in fact, my mom's gynecologist was like a family name in our house. Like I grew up knowing who he was and, you know, he was kind of like this hero. And I guess, you know, other families don't grow up like that. But to me, it was like, obviously, I know my mom's doctor's name, which is weird. But I think because of what he was able to bring to them as people who were having trouble conceiving.

Now, this was the kind of early to mid 70s. And just to kind of set the record, this is which I know, Monica, a fact check. But just to make sure, this is as far as I understand it, before in vitro existed, but artificial insemination was something they had figured out. So there were no test tube babies yet. I remember seeing the cover, the first test tube baby. I remember that. So there was no in vitro, right? The technology was literally taking a specimen and inserting it into a woman. There was no like cleaning of it. There was no like testing of it. None of that existed. And so what I have come to find out, which is fascinating to me, is that couples who were looking to have children were infertile for whatever

reasons, because again, this is before DNA was even discovered, would go to this well-known clinic in New York City, and I'm sure other places across the country, but this one was New York City, and say, we want to have a baby, what do we do? And they were told, well, we're going to boost the sperm with other sperm to make it faster and stronger. And well, that doesn't exist. Sperm, it doesn't work that way. Because my mom's immediate reaction when I questioned her was, you're a mix, but that doesn't exist. Sperm, it doesn't work that way. Because my mom's immediate reaction when I questioned her was, you're a mix, but that doesn't work. Biology is one egg, one sperm. So what they actually do is that they would tell couples to have sex the morning of or the day

before the procedure, they would bring them in and they would have a donor there ready to donate. They would bring them in and they would have a donor there ready to donate. Now, there was no donor registry. None of that existed. So the only way they could tell that donors were actually viable was that they actually had to have healthy children they already created. Not many people who have healthy children are running to donate sperm. Right. So they were really depending on the residents at the hospital.

So a lot of OBGYN residents in particular basically paid their way through college donating sperm. Yeah. And at the time there was no DNA. So parents were told we matched by blood type and eye color. The only two things you can trace, maybe it's your sperm, maybe it's donor sperm. We don't know, but don't worry about it. No one will ever know. It's your baby.

Go on with your life and off you go. And it worked. And it worked for a lot of families. And so there's an entire kind of generation of people who are actually likely related. There's no medical records. There's no registry. This has all been uncovered by genetic testing available at everyone's fingertips now. No one anticipated that that could actually happen. Oh my God. With all these genetic testing companies, is this a frequent kind of side effect that a lot

of people are figuring out that they're not actually related to their father? Their dad's not their dad. No one's releasing stats on this, but I will say that this industry is uncovering family secrets of all types. So it doesn't just stop with, you know, my dad's not my dad. It could be my mom had an affair. My mom and sister were never related. I mean, there's so many billion. I've heard my mom had an affair. My mom and sister were never related. I mean, there's so many billion. I've heard crazy stories of a lot of people who have uncovered like my brother's not my brother. I was adopted. Like there's just so many stories that were never told. There's no documents or evidence. And so you just believe what you're told. Okay. So after you found that out, did you go to your mom? Part of how I found out was I went to my mom and I said, these people are saying these things and what's happening?

And I said to her, I know you and daddy had trouble conceiving. And she's like, yes, but we went to the doctor and we had treatments and we have you and it's all that matters. And I'm like, right, right, of course. And I said, what treatments did you have thinking they're going to say some kind of fertility drug. And that's when she said, well, the doctors boosted daddy's sperm with stronger sperm. Now that's when I realized I'm not his child. Right. And did you explain that to her? Like how that worked? What you explained to us? I did. I think like, here's the thing. I think denial is a crazy thing. I think it was, you know, 40 something years back. You put that out of your mind. As my mom has said, you know, since then,

I just wanted a baby. Like I just wanted you. It didn't matter. And I think the fact that I am so much like my father in so many ways, not physically, but like we have very similar personalities. My mom would never question that I wasn't his and I was theirs. They left it there. Yeah. They left it there. No one thought of it, which is interesting because like a couple of things I wonder, which I haven't asked her, but like I was born with a heart defect. I had heart surgery. Like I wonder if they ever said, huh? Yeah. I don't know if they did. I don't know if like genetics played such a role back then. I feel like now we easily like attribute everything to genetics. When I was pregnant with

my first child, we did a fetal echocardiogram because I was born with a heart deformity. Now, my heart deformity was not genetic, but immediately that's the first place that people go is like, let's just check that box. I just think it was different back then. Again, there was no DNA. goes. Like, let's just check that box. I just think it was different back then. Again, there was no DNA. It was just a different time. It's the wild west of infertility. Okay. And then you were like, oof, okay, well, so my dad is not my dad. Were you like, should I tell him? I said, where's daddy? She's in the other room. I said, don't tell him. Don't tell him this. And the reason I'm speaking not with my full name is because i've never told him he's my father no matter what i'm very close with him i love him unconditionally and it has

never changed the way i feel about him i say this now four or five years later but finding this out was probably the hardest thing i've had to go through i remember just sitting looking at my legs and my arms and saying whose are they Your sense of self was so wrapped into this like genetics part. Like I just couldn't figure out who I was for a second. And I remember looking at my kids and thinking, I did them a huge disservice. They don't know who they are and I don't know who they are. And just everyone felt like a stranger, including myself. I would feel like, am I like Plato? Very disorienting. Beyond disorienting. I felt like I was kind of floating. One of my, now we call them dibblings, donor siblings. One of my dibblings explained it to me as like someone shook up one of the snow globes and I'm one of those particles and I'm just floating. There's nothing to ground me. And I was so lucky that I had these seven other people who were having similar experiences, albeit like maybe different timeline or a little bit different. But most stories are somewhat similar of being completely blindsided by this information and then having to move forward with that. And, you know, what do you make of it then? They were kind of like my gurus or my guides through this really weird time of complete disorienting, you know, chaos. It's almost like you had a little 12 step group because it's such a unique experience to go through, right? It would be hard to find people going through the exact same things that must have

been a really big part of your healing. I'm so grateful I had them because it was a huge part of getting me to the other side. And I now look at it as such a blessing. It is amazing to meet people that you share genetics with, but have no relationship with, and yet be so drawn to them and to see how genetics play out. I mean, I'm so similar to so many of these people. And yet, you know, it's that nature versus nurture conversation. We haven't been raised together. And yet we share so many similar traits.

Can you give some examples? Sure, of course. There's one man, the rest are women. And my donor, he would tell stories. He'd be up in the ER, you know, in the hospital and get a call like, come on down and was known for his strong sperm and would donate. And, you know, it would be inserted into the, inserted into the, you know, next woman and the next woman who had the same kind of blood type,

or one of the parents had the same blood type and eye color and off they went. Just to know what we're talking about here. he donated twice a week for four years so there's probably thousands of us and i guess not every one of them would take right i would love to do analysis of like if 100 of the population took these tests where'd we end up it'd just be yeah yeah it's a horror movie yeah a lot of lot of therapy. Or, I mean, it's horror, but also in some ways, like I was saying before, like there are some big positives too. I mean, I have these amazing, you know, women in my life that, you know, I never knew before. We have none of that weird competitive, like sibling. We grew up together.

Therefore, like we have that rivalry. But yet, like we're still siblings. You know, we share a good part of our genetic DNA. And it's amazing to meet them as adults and to develop relationships with them and have so much similarity. Like we are all incredibly resilient. We are all very strong women. We're all loud women. We are not wallflowers. What's interesting about my family is my family is very quiet. And I have always felt like I'm so loud and such a personality. And yet like my parents are not, and they're lovely, amazing people. I'm so different from them.

And it was just always so interesting to me that I was so different. And yet I meet these strangers who share genetic makeups with me. The volume we're together is out of control because we're like out talking one another. Anxiety. We all have anxiety. We all have very similar kind of little challenges in our personal lives, et cetera, that like we've all had like similar experiences. And it's just fascinating to hear about them and to say, yes, me too, me too. And to understand it's a lot of nature and not just nurture. Gosh, it must have felt so validating. It did. It felt like deep down,

I knew something was not right. There was something amiss and my body was detecting it and I couldn't process what that possibly could be. But once the dust settled and accepted the fact and was able to kind of process it, I was like, oh, this makes so much more sense. Did this whole thing kind of cure your hypochondria? Oh, God, no. I wish. That would be amazing. That would be the – no.

I just have more people to go to and be like, has anyone ever had a mole in their upper left lip? Like, it's just crazy things that I ask them. And it's just more crowdsourcing material. So in fact, it like threw my hypochondriacism into like chaos because all of a sudden, my first thought was, I don't know my health history. And it was like that race to find our donor. We have to find him because we have to know.

I was not looking to develop necessarily a relationship with him. I do have a relationship with him. I had an amazing father. I just wanted like, tell me the history, tell me the medical stuff. And it turns out he's a great guy and I'm so happy he's in my life. But that was like an added bonus. The only reason I bring up the hypochondria thing is because knowing in your heart that something's wrong, like something's actually not exactly right. And when you say to people and they're like, ugh, or like you go to the doctor and they're like, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine.

And you're like, but I'm not. Like something's wrong. And I think that leads to a lot of hypochondria. That happened with me a lot. And then when I found out I had seizures and epilepsy, it honest to God cured it. Because I was like, I knew it. I knew something was wrong and everyone's saying it's nothing. And now I know what it is.

And actually now that when things are a little weird, I trust my gut so much more. I'm like, I'm right. I know when something's way off. And so for you, it's like you were growing up, like something's a little off and I could see it manifesting into like it being health. Something's a little off.

Maybe I have a brain tumor. Maybe I have a, you know, a circulation issue, whatever. So that's why I wonder. You figured out the thing that was a little off. Maybe I have a brain tumor. Maybe I have a, you know, a circulation issue, whatever. So that's why I wonder, you figured out the thing that was a little off. I did. I wish I could say I cured that part of me. I don't think, I don't think anyone will cure that part of me. I think it's like, is who I am. Another part of the story, which I find fascinating is that it helped me understand who I am and why I'm the way I am. I was raised in this like amazing little quiet family and you know I have kids of my own and we are very much a naked household. It's not that I want other people to

see me naked I'm just very very comfortable being naked. Like when I'm home with my kids and it's just the three of us I'm naked. I'm cooking naked, I'm doing laundry naked, like it's just who I am. Not all the time but like I have no problem with that. It feels okay to me. And it's always been who I am. And in fact, my ex-husband would always be like, can you just put on clothes? Like it just, we were very different. And I was like, okay, whatever. You know, I go and I meet my sperm donor for the first time and I'm in his house and we're

doing a tour and there's all these like signs up. He has a beautiful property. He has all these like hedges. He's like, you see how it's so private. It's like, yeah. He's like, well, one thing you should all know is that I'm a nudist. And I was like, oh my God, this is like, this makes all this sense. Yes. Yes, you are. And that's why I am the way I am. Like this explains everything. Cause it wasn't like it was modeled for me. There was no one naked in my home, you know? And it was just like little like personality quirks I've had throughout my life that I was like, huh, where'd that come from?

And it is so clear that it's from that part of the family. And I do have a lot of my sperm donors DNA. Like I actually share the most DNA with his daughter that he raised. So we're the most similar. So I do have a lot of him in me. There is a genetic gene for nudity. I'm telling you it's out there and I got it. Finally, like it made sense. Like, oh, this is why I am the way I am. I'm very curious about the decision to not tell your dad

and then to meet with the sperm donor. You're not referring to him as your dad, even though he's biologically related to you. So can you tell us about how you sorted through all of that for yourself? To be honest, I'm still sorting through it, right? I still live in this kind of world of secrets, but it's all because I want to protect my dad. I don't want him to think I feel like any less his daughter because I don't. He's my dad and he will always be my dad and that's it he's in his 80s if it were to upset him which I hope it wouldn't but even if it did a tiny bit

it's not worth it to me because he's a great dad and he was always a dad and then there's the whole other side of it where he has three kids from a previous marriage and they are my half siblings, but they're not really. Yeah, right. So a lot of people are affected by this. You know, it's not just me and him. There's another sibling I have that was created by my mom and dad together. And our whole lives, we've been told how different we are.

People can't fathom that we are from the same family and I am pretty sure that that sibling has a different donor I don't think that that sibling was created by my father I know it wasn't my donor my donor had stopped donating by then and then it's like there's that secret having gone through this it is a really, really, really hard thing to know about yourself at this point in your life. So my mom begged me not to tell my sibling and I struggled with it. But I also know that you have to be really strong to handle this information. And I'm not sure that my siblings as strong as I am knowing what I went through to process is now it's great, but it was not easy. It's not something I would wish on someone. Do you wish you hadn't found out? I did for a while, especially the first two months.

I was so mad at myself for clicking that box. My life is just so easy. This was so much more complicated than I ever expected. But then I came around and I was like, I'm so happy I did. This has made my life so much richer. And I've met so many amazing people. I'd be able to have these relationships with these amazing people I have genetic familiarity with. If your dad had been younger when you learned it, do you think you would have told him? Or do you think it wouldn't have changed it? I wasn't shy about taking this test.

My parents knew I was doing it. In fact, when I got the results, I said to both of them, oh my God, this is so weird. It says I have all these siblings. And they were like, oh, that's weird. I wonder if on some level he's an incredibly smart person. But I also think that we have an amazing ability to also believe what we need to believe. Yes. Yes.

A hundred percent. So I don't know. Yes, 100%. So I don't know. But if it was positioned differently to them, like I feel like the way that these doctors in the early 70s, mid 70s positioned it to these kind of everyday people who were not knowledgeable in terms of, you know, medicine and were just kind of said like, yeah, don't worry about it. Who knows? And just move on with your life kind of thing. I've asked my mom that like, have you ever thought about it? And I think again, they just shut it out. If they had said to me when I was younger, Hey, we did this crazy treatment and we got a bit, you know, and we had more of an open dialogue about it, perhaps. I don't know. It just didn't seem like something I needed to do. It does feel weird that I'm not open to my kids in the sense, like, they don't know they have all these like half cousins out there and they've actually met some of my donor siblings and know them as like friends of mine and like one day I will bring it up and I will explain everything to them but not now that's a weird thing for me too

that like I wish I could just be 100% honest and authentic but it's not worth hurting people I think it makes so much sense what you're doing and I want want to protect my dad. The crazy part is to me is that like he obviously could have kids. He had three with someone else. My mom could obviously have kids. She had me and another child. They just couldn't do it together. They would have been a great candidate for IVF. Yeah. So it's just amazing. Like when I get caught up in my head about like what could have been. So you were raised Jewish. Yep, 100% Jewish. And your mom and your dad are Jewish. My mom and my dad are Jewish.

And the crazy thing about my donor, which my mom thinks to this day was, like, handpicked for her, I'm not so sure, but whatever, was that he is also 100% Jewish. Oh, wow. My dad graduated from high school years before he should have. My donor graduated from high school years before he should have. Oh, wow. My dad graduated from high school years before he should have. My donor graduated from high school years before he should have. Oh, wow. Both overachievers, both very successful in their own right. Other than the fact that like my donor is very loud and kind of boisterous and different kind of humor. That nudist, like very kind of a little bit more of an extrovert in many ways are very summer, which made sense why I was so much like my father. Yes, nurture plays a role in it. But also I do think that

my donor and my father share a lot of similar kind of traits. When you talk about not telling your dad and the kids and all of that, I mean, I do think about AA where there's a tenant that sometimes it's better to not be honest. Like you're supposed to be super honest, but if it's going to hurt the other person, you're not supposed to. I just don't see the benefit. I mean, for my kids, yes, and that will happen one day. But for my father, what's the benefit of telling him? What will he gain from this? Right.

I don't know. I can't think of a positive for him. Even in the past couple of years, the amount of like books written and Netflix series. And there's been so much about this kind of story. And I only knew that because every time one gets released, it gets forwarded to me by like 17 different people. I'm sure. I know there's a lot out there because everyone's like, this is your story. So like this is not just happening to me and my donor siblings.

This is happening around the world. Have you made any major life decisions based on this knowledge? Has it affected your worldview perspective? Yeah, I think I did. I mean, I've decided to live my life more authentically. I left a marriage and I kind of started a new life. And I think part of that was like this desire just to be true to who I am. And I also have these amazing women who I'm related to who are all really strong and are my cheerleaders no matter what. I mean, regardless of my friends who I love,

I just have this like core group of family and we have an ongoing text. And whenever something good happens, we share whenever something bad happens, we share whenever something bad happens, we share that's kind of our role for each other. And in fact, my sperm donor's daughter, who was raised by him, she had lost her mother and she's a badass. She's so successful. She's super amazing. And we all, you know, travel together and we all meet up. And she said this is the first time in her life she's had strong amazing female relationships and she's like I really feel like this is a gift from my mom I feel like this is what she has given me is you guys because I haven't had this before we call each other our

people like we had to find each other I'm so happy we did that's lovely I have a lot of friends who have used donors and have asked me questions and I think think at the end of the day, it's a really positive thing now that you as someone who has chosen a donor, that your child could one day connect with other donor siblings, siblings, and have these relationships. Again, I think it's better if they know from a young age as opposed to being like, you know, a secret uncovered. But I just want to make that clear that like, it can be, I think, a really amazing, powerful thing to have these relationships with these people that you are genetically connected to, but have been raised apart from. Yeah. It seems like you deepened your relationships through this experience, which you would think would make you feel estranged or further away, right? You're just feeling closer to this new group. And closer to your dad. And closer to dad. Like even as you're talking, I'm thinking like, what if I learned today that

my dad isn't my real dad? And I would have the same reaction as you. Like, no, no, that's my dad. Like all I think about is like my dad rocking me to sleep, my dad giving me my bath, my dad like helping me with my math homework and like yelling at me. And like, you know, there would be no shift. We had another guest talk about how fatherhood is through action, right? It's something that you do. And so it's helping me rethink even like, yeah, what does fatherhood mean to me? Or what does my dad mean to me? And based on what?

And the genetics is like so little. And I'm grateful for my donor because he gave us all life. But it's my dad who raised me. I mean, it's my dad who has created who I am. And with genetic parts of my donor popping in and out and being like, oh, that's why I'm naked. But yeah, it's 100% fatherhood and parenting in general is time you put into it and the relationship that you create with this tiny human. Yeah. Have you talked to your donor about all of this? Like, how does he feel now in retrospect, having given so much sperm? And for him, having so many children out there, like, I mean, I don't know if you've talked to him about this. I'm sure you have.

What does that feel like for him? I think he is proud. I do. I think it's amazing to him to see these deposits become full humans. We are full people. And yet we were just literally in a cup. And then he forgot about it. We were in a cup. He forgot about it. He went on with this business. Now we, here we are these like adult women being like, hi, I think it blows kind of miraculous. Yeah. Like I think it blows his mind. Like, I can't believe I was part of this. At first he was a little wary of like, what do they want? But he was always incredibly kind to us and very open to any

questions we had. And he's the one who educated us a lot on this process because he was an OBGYN resident. So he was living and breathing this from the other side. And he was like, yeah, he's like, where else are they gonna go for donors? His family made this decision together. His wife, he said, listen, I can donate sperm and make money

or I can work extra shifts and not be home with the kids. I think it was just kind of like, yeah, let's do this. And they saw, I think these people day in, day out who were desperate to have babies. And there was no bank. Nothing existed. Like this is it. This is your option.

And to be honest, the group of us, we can't believe we haven't had more. Like we haven't gotten any, like you have another sibling. Like we always kind of wait for that day. And we thought there'd be like a one a month. And we thought like maybe after the holidays, people give it as gifts. Like we just kept waiting at this point. We're kind of like, where's everyone? Like there's gotta be more of us.

It's just so fascinating to think just how technology and fertility really work hand in hand to give us so much more information that can like destroy relationships or create all these secrets, but also connect people more deeply with each other. Well, what you guys are experiencing, I mean, I don't know if I could have done that 10 years ago. Like I, you know, and even between my two pregnancies, the amount of technology and technical advances, like I couldn't find out what I was having with my daughter. Yeah. You didn't find out at 10 weeks, like through the blood. And then my son came along and like at 10 weeks, I knew it was a healthy boy. I had to wait till I saw it in the sonogram with my daughter. I can only imagine like what today people are having babies, like what they know

and how quickly they know it and technology involved. If someone had told my mom like, in 30 years, your daughter's going to be freezing her eggs and making a podcast about it, she'd be like, what's a podcast? What's freezing eggs? What are you talking about? I know, exactly. Well, Bea, this was really awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you for having me. I think it's really optimistic, but shows the whole ride. There are ups and downs, and ultimately, though, you now feel empowered by it.

There's always going to be curveballs in life. It's what you do with them. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you. What a day. What a day we had. I mean mean I thought I had an interesting life and It turns out Well, I have a basic life. Look all families have secrets. All families are different

It's kind of nice for people to be so open It's really brave to come forward with all of the truth and we're all dealing with that in our families But fertility secrets are a different kind, a different breed. Yeah. I feel like we need face gym a lot. Yeah. I am calling them right now. Okay. So we're going to go get face gym and we hope you guys have a great week and we'll see you next week for more race to 35 see you