Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Synced: AMA

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

In this episode of Synced, Monica shares realizations she's been having on her second egg-freezing journey, Liz raves about 'The Golden Bachelor,' and they have a heart-to-heart while discussing last week's cliffhanger. They answer a listener's question on whether one can cry at work and still be taken seriously, which leads to a very special guest appearance from Rihanna. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

do you have any shot marks tats yeah i do i think i mean it's already like also puffy you know oh my god i'm having like weird like f. I know we should talk about that. Even though it's like I hated that. I want to be puffy with you. Yeah. Okay. So hello. Hi. I just got back from a fertility appointment. My brain is off, which is also funny because I don't feel like it was as much last time, but I definitely feel like so loopy. You feel more loopy than last year? Yeah. At first I was trying to credit this to so many things. I was like, well, why does it feel so different this time? And why isn't it so fun? Obviously that one's easy to answer because you're not doing it with me and we're not in camp and I have to do like real life while doing this. Right. And we were not doing real life. And that's become very clear

because juggling all this real life stuff while you're shooting yourself up every night and having like hormones all over the place is harder. And I think we had so much adrenaline last time. I mean, I know I did. Yeah. That I don't think I felt it. We were like high on it a little bit. Do you think we were like a little high on each other? Yeah, probably. I mean, it was like a new friendship and there was a purpose for it other than just the result of the eggs. We were doing a show. We were like setting up videos to do it.

There was so many components to it that I think really helped distract. We kind of eventicized it. We did. We sure did. Making a podcast. Just a little bit. And it's a little bit like, you know how they say, actually, we can talk about this later,

but I watched The Golden Bachelor. Oh. And I have a rule about not watching The Bachelor unless I'm in a relationship. And I'm not in a relationship, but I'm choosing to still watch it. And it's so interesting to see these women in their 60s and 70s, single women in their 60s and 70s living their best lives. So it's been really funny. But the reason why I'm bringing it up is that, you know, in The Bachelor, they build such intimate connection because they go to Paris or on roller coasters or in space. And I feel like that was our first friend date. It was like a month

long egg freezing. And so it's a little bit that where it was super exhilarating, a lot of emotions. And I think that that maybe distracted us too from the bad parts of it. And everyone was gone. So we were really in a vacuum. Not everyone. Well, everyone in my world was gone. And so it wasn't like, oh, I'm juggling. I need to go to this party. And then I also have work. We're recording. Dax and Kristen were gone. A lot of my friends were gone at that time. So we could just be now it's not that way. And I don't have that adrenaline and I'm not giving

you shot. So I don't have like a higher purpose. And I texted you a couple of days ago once I started and I said, I have an apology to make and I will do it on air. So I'm doing it now. Oh my God. I have an apology to make from our last freezing because I shamed you so much about how much you said it hurt. Because you complained a lot about how much it hurt. And you were like, it's a 10. And I was like, it's like a 0.1.

I didn't feel anything, which is so interesting because it hurts. The pain level is different this time because you're not giving me shots? I don't know if it's not giving you shots. I think it's literally the adrenaline. I think I don't have that this time because I know what I'm doing. There's not the anticipation and the craze around it. And so I just know like, oh, at this time, I'm going to do this thing. It doesn't have any mania attached, which is healthy. It's like a good thing. I think because of that, I am feeling it more. Wow. And I'm on more stuff. So perhaps that's also why.

And I just left the doctor and you get transported back so quick. It's such a roller coaster. left the doctor and you get transported back so quick. It's such a roller coaster. You get good news one day and then bad news the next day. And I do wish you could just not know anything until the end. Just get what you get. And like, that's it. But knowing like I have 14 or 15 follicles, that's amazing. That's so much more than last time. And then today, like, okay, 10 are responding. Okay. 10 still okay. But what about the other four or five? What's happening with them? And there's always just kind of this like, you know, you just don't know. And then we're increasing a medication tonight. And I just do feel a bit demoralized. And what am I doing? Why am I even doing this? This is so much. And it's so much money. And for what? I don't even know. And doing it this way has actually been really, I think, good for me to not have you as a partner there. Because today, this could change and probably will. But today, I feel like I don't want to do this alone.

Because this sucks. Doing my shots by myself sucks. Going to the doctor and getting the bad news by myself sucks. I don't think I want to have kids by myself. I don't think I would necessarily know it unless I was doing all this by myself. It's a good practice run. And maybe I won't have to, who knows. But as of today, in this very moment for me, I'm ruling that out. And that feels kind of heavy because there's a big part of me that always felt like, well, I can do that by myself if I want. And I can, but I don't think I want to. But why is that heavy and not empowering? Well, it's heavy to know that if I don't pick a partner who I want to have kids with, that I'm not going to have them.

That's a big deal. I mean, maybe this is happening so that you do open yourself up to the idea of finding a partner, right? Or that it changes your perspective on who that partner is. We talked about this during Race to 35 when Esther Pearl came in, but you're reinventing how to become pregnant and why aren't you reinventing the idea of family too and re-imagining that, that it's not this like,

well, if it doesn't happen this way, then it can't happen. Instead of thinking about it that way, expanding the pie about what it can look like and how it could happen for you. And I think knowing that you don't want to do it alone is really, that's, I'm so happy for you that you know that, honestly. I know that you don't feel good right now knowing that and what it took for you to learn that about yourself, right? Like you're going through a hard time right now, but maybe that's why you're doing it this time so that you're setting up what's meant to happen for you. Anything you do in life obviously teaches you about yourself and teaches you about what you really want and don't want and need. I hear you. It doesn't feel empowering or good. It feels like, okay, that option for me,

I'm choosing to take that off the table. And I think that limits my possibility of having them. Again, I still don't even, I don't know, even with that option on the table, if I would have taken that path. I don't know. Is this about fear that you're not going to meet a partner? No, I'm not thinking at all about partnership right now, honestly, at all. It's, I don't want to have a partner just to have kids. I'm not going to do that. And what I'm now also realizing is I don't want to have kids without a partner. So I feel very limited. I don't know what is going to be in the future for me, but that's fine. No one knows. If you knew, wouldn't that be a little boring anyways?

Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I'm trying to make you feel better because I love you and I don't like to see you sad, but I also relate completely. And I go through that roller coaster almost daily. Like even on a good day, I'll be like, everything's great. And my life is the way it is, even though it's different than what I thought it would be. And I come up with all these things and you know, it's true, right? My life is so much better in many ways than I thought it could ever be. And part of it is because I

don't have kids, right? Like if I did have the picket fence and the family, the dog, I'm allergic. So I don't know, it'd be something else, a little hamster, but that would be great. But I probably wouldn't be sitting here with you. And even I thought about that last summer when we were freezing our eggs together. Like if I had been in a relationship, if I had been married, I wouldn't be able to just move to LA for like a month and go to camp with you. And I wouldn't have this amazing friendship in my life. And like, we've only been soulmates for like 18 months. Yeah, it's new. And I'm like, what more amazing things are going to happen because I, you know, you're in my life and that I get to be, you know, friends with you. And,

but then, yeah, I still will be like reheating my little pad thai and be like, man, I'm 36. I'm never going to, you know, it's normal. It's normal. But it's important, again, like coming back to Gabor Mate on your show, that's a belief. For sure. Oh, my God. That's the truth. I could not pass that test.

I tried so many times. It's really hard to dissect beliefs and facts. practice to have to be like, nope, that's a belief or that's what my mom told me or that's what this boy told me in high school. That's not the truth. Exactly. And I have so much respect for women of our age and women, again, who are in their 60s and 70s going on The Bachelor on live television to be like, I'm single and I would love to find love. And yeah, that is so brave. It's just a different story, right? And everything is a story anyways. Yeah. This happened last time too, where this process forces you to think about things you don't normally have to think about. I am, for the most part, very happy in my life. And it's so full of amazing people, lots of support, great job,

great everything. I'm so lucky. And I actually have very few moments of feeling like, oh, but I want that. Like, it's not that common for me. But this process always puts me there. Right. It makes me have to overanalyze a little bit. Okay, what do I really want? Do I want these kids? Okay, if I really want kids and I could do it by myself. Oh, no, I don't want to do it by myself.

Oh, then I need a partner. Oh, do I even want a partner? I don't even know. You're just in that headspace. It's really nice to, yeah. To avoid it. But it's not, I think part of it for me is also, it's really not avoiding it. But it's not, I think part of it for me is also, it's not, it's really not avoiding it.

It's, I have chosen to not make a romantic love connection a priority. And I'm okay with that. I know a lot of people aren't and that's fine. I do think some people would say like, people aren't and that's fine. I do think some people would say like, oh, maybe you're just scared. And maybe, but also I think it's okay. I don't believe that to be a complete person or be a happy person, I need that. I really don't. And so the reason it starts coming into play is when kids become a question. Other than that, I just don't know if it's needed for me. That's great. How does that feel to you? It feels fine. I feel like it invites people to say, to project what they think the reason is because they center romantic relationships in their lives.

Yeah. Or like if I'm not doing that, I'm weird or something or off, but I just feel very content. Yeah. I think that's great because I have always put sometimes too much of a focus on romantic relationships. So I know that if I'm being really distant with someone who's great that I went on a date with or something like that, I know that like something else is going on and that maybe I am avoiding or that there's something, you know. But if you know, that's what makes you happy. And by the way, like what you're saying is a real trend right now happening with a lot of women. And it's something that we're seeing, again, just in the data, right, that more single women have bought homes than single men. And a lot more of us are not

having sex. Men too. In general. In general. But women particularly, and Bell Hooks talked about this, there's a lot of sort of feminist theory around de-centering men, particularly for, you know, heterosexual women. I kind of straddle both worlds where the model of marriage currently, like what's on the table in this country, given the policies and where we're at and where most attitudes and from what I see that my friends are on average dealing with, it is not a good deal. That makes me sad though, right? And that's where I go like maybe motherhood in 2023 is not going to work for me. And maybe if I'd been around 40 years from now in my fertility prime and we had paid parental leave and women and men were equal

and shared domestic tasks equally and we didn't discriminate against mothers in the workplace, all that stuff, maybe that would be different. And that's where I go like everything, everywhere, all at once. There's a world where you have seven kids, right? You know what I mean? Yeah, it's a multiverse, you know? And there's a world where you're living the life you're living right now. I know. How wonderful that you love your life. The life you're living right now. How wonderful that you love your life.

Yeah, it is. But this whole episode is just, who knows? Because when you're on all these drugs, you can't even be trusted. Well, we're documenting it. We're putting it in the vault. We are. To know that this is how you feel on this date. And you might feel differently on another date.

By the way, I'm sure there's parents who were listening who were like, yeah, some days I'm super happy and some days I'm like, why did I do this? Everyone. I think everyone has that feeling regardless of your situation. No one's happy all the time. I once saw this interview with the cast of Mad Men and one of the actors is French, I think.

He said, Americans define happiness as a state of achievement. You achieve happiness and then you have it. And he said, in France, I hope it's France. I could totally be wrong. It's not a state of achievement. It's a feeling that comes and goes. It's a transient feeling and it's not expected to stay. And it's just changing that expectation. If you think life is about achieving happiness, you're going to be miserable because that's not a thing. It's a feeling. It's a feeling that comes and goes and is not permanent. It's temporary. I think it's just important to remember because I think that's

a cause of a lot of depression of like, I'm not happy. I should be happy. No, you shouldn't. You shouldn't be happy all the time. That's not how humans are meant to be. Yeah. Literally last night, I was really blue. And you think in that moment, or I do this where I'm like, all the work I've been doing, it's all, nope, all the progress. And you discount it because for a moment, or for me, it was just a few days. I don't know why. I was just really physically, like sometimes it's also like a physical feeling, right? And then you overthink it. You're like, why do I feel? It's like, no, you have a tummy ache. You didn't sleep enough, right? Yeah.

And we read into it. And to your point, we think that there's something really wrong when we're unhappy. And yeah, being comfortable. Or again, it comes back to, oh my God, I'm going to keep coming back to this episode because it was so good.

But with Gabor Matej, Oh, I thought you meant Bachelor. Oh, The Bachelor. No, no, no. I didn't go that deep. Well, okay. So The Golden Bachelor, I don't go on No, no, no. I didn't go that deep. Well, okay. So The Golden Bachelor, I don't go on Twitter anymore

because I feel like I'm participating in like toxic masculinity or like I don't know what's going on there. I don't want to call it X. Like I'm over it. Right, I know. And I don't use the word toxic masculinity, but only with Elon Musk

because I think it's just appropriate. But this is the first older generation that we're seeing dating on The Bachelor. I don't know how old he is, but he must be in his 60s. And he's dating age-appropriate women, which is so fascinating, right? Because The Bachelor couldn't replicate what happens in society, which is 60-year-old men are dating 40-year-old women or younger, and 60-year-old women are dating like nine-year-old men. This is, again, on average, but it's not really what we tend to see. And so it's been

really, I really enjoyed watching it. And then I also, maybe people, everyone on Twitter is saying this, but he has a hearing aid. Okay. And some women on the show also have hearing aids. And I'm like, we have the first bachelor with a disability.

Oh, yeah. And I'm sure other people in the franchise had disabilities that maybe they didn't disclose or whatever, but you can see the hearing aid in some of the kissing scenes and stuff. And it was like, so emotional. And at one point he's like, you know, oh, you have one too. Like, and I think he calls it like something like, oh, you have a little toy too, you know? And I was like, this is going to help this stigma. So many people. Yeah. I know you were going through stuff

last night, so I didn't want to be like, turn it on. But I do think it might be fun to watch it. Have you ever watched it? The Bachelor? Yeah. I love The Bachelor. I mean, I haven't watched it in a lot of seasons, but I love it and I love watching it with people. That's the best way to watch it. So we could try to watch it together. That would be fun. Yeah. How many episodes is it?

I think this might have been the first episode. Yeah, he was meeting the women. No, I bought Hulu. I bought a $50 Hulu live TV because I was like, I need to... My friends were going to a bar to watch it, but I had to finish work. There's a bar viewing of it? Yes, in Highland Park.

Where at? The Greyhound? Cheesy Grits or cheesy cats? Was that a mean ages joke you just made? No, no, that's a bar. No, it's called Wolfies. I don't know why I made it cheesy. It's close to Greyhound. It is.

I want to watch it. Now, are most of the women divorced? Some of them, again, I was watching it while I was working, so I was not paying super close attention. A lot of them, again, I was watching it while I was working, so I was like not paying super close attention. A lot of them, yes, have been married before. I think some of them, maybe their husbands died. But yeah, like a lot of remarried, yes. Are there any that has never been a marriage? That's a really good question. I probably, again, I should have been paying closer attention if I

knew I'd been tested, I was getting tested. But maybe. I'm watching this. This is exciting. It is. It's really interesting. Oh, also, Jimmy Kimmel's aunt or something comes on as a joke. Oh, my gosh. Like, she's like, all right, it's your, you know.

Aunt Chippy? Yeah, I don't know. I wasn't familiar with her. But, yes, she shows up. And women in their 60s and 70s are beautiful. Yes. But these women are, you know, have been selected. It's a superficial show.

Yeah. So these women are really beautiful and have been keeping up. And keeping it tight. Keeping it tight. Exactly. I don't want to, you know, offend anybody. But yes. But he gave his first impression, Rose, to, I think, not the woman that was the most, you know, sort of physically, standardly attractive.

Yes. He chose one that was was she like played him a song on the guitar it's so sweet you guys I really didn't think I would be into it and I just immediately was like this is because there was really a lot of social commentary behind it yes okay it's important and even a few years ago I think a show like that wouldn't have been able to exist but for me again it helps it normalize it for me of, well, I'm 36. I've never been married. But look at the, you know, that there's so many ways to be. I was talking to a friend recently. She is divorced, has two kids, sort of recently divorced.

And her ex-husband is in a new relationship. And her and I were talking and I said, are you going to date? Are you interested in having another relationship? And she said, yes, I know I want that. I don't want to be alone. It's kind of like the opposite of sort of what I was saying earlier. She's like, I know I want that. I know I don't want to be alone, but I'm never getting married again or having more kids. Like, I also know that. I was like, oh, interesting. And then she said, well, never say never, of course. She was like, it depends on the person, but I'm not interested in another marriage. I'm interested in companionship and having a person there to travel with and snuggle and watch TV with, but that's it. And I think that's really also so 2023 is like, you can pick and choose and piecemeal the things you want.

It doesn't have to be like all or nothing or this package or this or this label or this. Yes. It can be a lot of different things. And even the difference between companionship and marriage, that opens up a whole world for me of like, oh, wait, what's the difference? Even coming back to you, you know, this black and white, I either, you know, stay single and I don't get a partner, I don't have kids, or I do the whole thing. That's so 1950s, you know? This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

I mean, where do we begin? Where do we even begin? This show is sponsored by therapy. It's life changing because sometimes you literally it's your brain getting in your own way. Your therapist can help you see your struggle in a way that you can't. You're stuck inside it. And often the people in your life are stuck inside it. So going to them isn't that helpful. This third party is so necessary. Even this week, like I was getting all this advice from my friends and my therapist was like, do not do that. Right. I needed like an

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No questions asked. You have nothing to lose. Okay, we left a cliffhanger last week. We did. But you know, I'm also, okay, it's okay. Is it again? No, it's just that I do. Okay. Yeah. But we have some time. Okay. I just have therapy. Yes. You have therapy and we prioritize that here. We did leave a cliffhanger and I would love to revisit it if you're comfortable. Yeah. So last week you said, you've said it on here before, but you really kind of laid out that you're bi and you were saying it in relation to a question that we had. It was a woman who hadn't had sex yet. And I was

telling my virginity story. And you were like, I have a similar story. And I'm just so curious about it. Yeah. Look, people will be, I'm sure, like mad that I'm not handling this right or asking it right or I don't know. But I feel safe that you feel safe to tell me if I'm ever crossing a line or something. I also have another friend who you know who just came out a couple years ago. She fell in love with her friend. It was the first time she ever felt any romantic sexual feelings at all for women. And she was like very startled by this, right? Of like, oh, what is this feeling? Like she had relationships with men and, but you said you knew when you were really young. Yes. You can go ask me whatever.

Yeah. AMA. AMA, because you do love having sex with men, right? Yeah. Okay. I mean, we can say that, right? Yeah. And based on our conversations we've had, you know that. Yeah. Now, is it that you like the emotional component with women more? Well, so weirdly, and this is actually kind of a problem for me. Well, it's not a problem. It's just I prefer the physical, actually, of women and for me. What's not a problem? It's just, I prefer the physical actually of women

and the emotional. I've never been in a long-term relationship with a woman. Right. And so that emotional romantic desire for, I think, companionship and partnership, not that I'm not open, but I know that I lean towards men for that. You've known the people I've dated, like I lean towards prototypically masculine guys, but physically I lean towards men for that. You've known the people I've dated, like I lean towards prototypically masculine guys, but physically I lean towards very, very feminine women. But that's not what I look for in the relationship dynamics that I prefer. And maybe again, that will change. And I knew, honestly, it was, you know, I'm laughing about it now, but it was very hard.

I'm sure. It was the 90s. Again, I was a kid. And I remember being like, you know, when you find a pen, you put a penny in a fountain or whatever to make a wish, like every wish I went around like eight, nine, 10. Like it was like, please make me not gay. You know, it's really sad. I think back at it.

I can't point. Well, I do remember this was a little bit late. This is so funny. And I think it's important to share this because I do think it's funny when women share these things. Again, it was something that I felt like was maybe a thing, but it hadn't been confirmed. And then I was 12 or 13 and I was reading like 17 magazine or whatever. And then there was this ad with like Carmen Electra. Oh, wow. And she was dating tommy lee no dennis rodman oh yeah and so they're both in the ad and we have to find this ad oh my god because i remember seeing this ad and he's kind of like you know standing and doing this like manly pose and she's kind of like sort of bent with hands on him. And I remember being like, like feeling attracted. Yes.

And I was like, oh, my God. And I remember like really staring at her and not being able to stop. Wow. And I realized, yes, now I know. And I'm not looking at Dennis Rodman in this scenario, right? And then when I also think back, this is very like millennial core. And if there are any listeners who want to share what their moments were, I love when actually women do share that. Or again, gay men or queer men sharing who their crush was. But I also remember realizing like, oh,

I'm in love with Rachel in Friends. Like I, Jennifer Aniston, and I love the show and I loved watching it. But at a certain point, I was like, oh, no, I like I have a crush on her, not on Ross or Joey or whatever and yeah it was all those little moments put together and again it was very repressed for for me and I did not talk about it to anybody and I kept wanting it to go away yeah and then yeah I had like my longtime bully um I remember I was 14 or 15 at this point. And there was this girl in front of us that had like a tight pair of pants or something like that. And I guess I'd looked at her butt or something like that. And like I glanced and he was like, I saw you. I saw you. You looked at her.

You looked at her butt. And then like kind of drawing attention. Right. But again, this was, you know, we're kids. And again, a different time. I mean, homophobia is still rampant. Yeah. But I remember in that moment being like, no, no, no, no, no, I didn't. And denying it. Right. Or working at a, I worked at a bar. And I remember once like my boss made this like, again, people don't realize, you know, he made this passing comment about, oh, yeah, but she's a lesbian about this woman, you know, as a derogatory. And I remember being like, oh, I could never tell him. I can never tell people at work. I can never tell. Yeah, you hide and you pray to make it go away. Like, or not everybody, but that was my experience. And then with time, it became like, oh, both of these things are true. Because I'm attracted to women, it doesn't mean I'm not attracted to men. But it took me a long time for those things to coexist together. And none of my friends would bring it up, by the way, which is also funny. I've talked about this relationship I had when I was like 19 and it was with our group of friends and like me and this friend, like it was like clear that something was going on and no one ever said anything, but I actually appreciate it. Right. There was never a like what's going on or,

and at one point, you know, my friend mentioned, he was like, you know, your friendship that you had with her, like almost like how a parent would say you know I really have to commend like yeah my friends never and my family once I come out like everyone has been incredible and so sometimes I'm like why how did I internalize so much shame around it and how bad must it be for people who grew up in a household or with a friend group that is even more homophobic or actually inherently homophobic in a way that I was lucky not to have. The first attraction you remember was for a woman. Yeah. And then do you remember having the first attraction towards a man? Oh, but I was also boy crazy. So that's what also was confusing to me. Right. so I and this was definitely

limerence or when I think back at when it started and how overwhelming it was I look back at it as like I think it was a coping

mechanism of like creating fantasy right in my head and I couldn't sleep at night like it was that's when my insomnia

started it was like I would obsess over this crush I've never told him Vincent Ayotte my god if you're listening we follow each other on Instagram so maybe he will but yeah it's a big deal but I was obsessed

with him right like a lot of girls were honestly um he probably knows it and I would obsess about him a lot and like wanting to be with him and I would create these but they weren't obviously I was younger too they weren't like sexual fantasies but they were very like romantic fantasies. And so I did get to a point where I was like, do I just want validation from men? Is that, but then I'm actually gay? Was also a few years of sort of reflecting on that. And I also think that in my twenties, I was so disconnected from my body. I was so under patriarchal programming of sex and like not prioritizing my pleasure, not prioritizing my experience. And so sex wasn't that good with guys. And so in my 20s, like even when I was dating men, I was like, I have a feeling that I'm just

going to end up gay. I remember reading Portia de Rossi's book, and it's sort of about her realizing she's attracted to women. I was like, is that going to be my story when I'm in my 40s or 50s? But now that I'm in my 30s, I've unlearned a lot of those things. I know I'm attracted to men. I like men, and I like women. So it's been a journey. When did you tell your parents?

It was a very short while ago. Oh, really? Two or three years ago. Wow. Yeah, it was wild. And it happened because we were like on a little weekend getaway. I was like on a dating, you know, on Raya or whatever. And my sister was like, oh, I want to see what it's like. And so we're, I'm showing her my app and she's like, oh, why are there women? And I went, oh, it's just like the way the app works. Like, because it's, and I started lying and I was like, I had this out of body where I was like,

why am I lying to my best, like my best friend? Like my sister, I don't lie about anything with her. She's the most accepting. And especially on this issue would never like make me feel bad. And it was a few hours later, I was like, I need to tell my family. Like this is, I am so close to these people. And why would I lie? Why would I, you know,

and lie about myself? I actually made us all wear masks, like kid masks. You and your family? Yes, before I told them because it was, again, I'm 32 or whatever at this time, but I'm still, like, so nervous.

Of course. And again, it's wild. Like, the bravery of these kids who come out to their parents who are homophobic when they're teenagers, like it makes me just so, it makes me so emotional to think about the bravery because I was so shy that I brought these little masks, like these little arts and crafts masks that I brought to play with my niece. And I was like, okay, everyone wear a mask and I'm going to wear too but I'm gonna take mine off yeah and I was like this is me you know and I've been wearing a mask and I don't want to wear it anymore and my parents were like it was this beautiful moment like everyone crying and like that's so special yeah it was it was did you feel so much lighter I mean how did you feel yeah I felt good

you feel also exposed like I also felt this responsibility to people who read my writing and and are following me on social media right that I felt this responsibility like to be like to not hide but then yeah like I posted and then the next day I wanted to work at Vox it all kind of sank in for me where I could just tell that everyone was looking at me and people would come up to me and be like oh hey like like you know and they're all everyone was amazing but it was like hey Liz like how you doing like I know this thing and so I felt very naked uh-huh I felt very naked and then there were a lot of also like, you know, people used it. You know, people will always use whatever, you know, you're vulnerable about, you know, against you on social media, particularly.

Overall, though, it was really positive. And it felt like, again, just not having to upkeep. Like secrets are so much work. Like that, you know, that dating app thing of like not thinking like, oh, I should think that girls are going to pop up. And, you know much work um like that you know that dating app thing of like not thinking like oh i should think that girls are gonna pop up and i'm you know it's like right thank you for sharing that i think it's really beautiful and brave and i i'm sure that story helped a ton of people i hope so i mean it helped me like so many i cried reading the the comments under that post like i want to thank everybody for just making me feel totally loved and accepted.

Yeah. Though you're like, I should feel that way already. Have you, where are you on the scale? The Kinsey scale? I mean, I have so many intimate friendships with women. I have a lot of intimate male friendships too, actually. But I'm definitely not a person who's grown up as like, I'm a guy's girl. Like, all my best friends are boys. Like, I never my best friends have always been girls. But I've never felt physically attracted at all to any female in my life. I mean, there are people, like you say, Jennifer Aniston,

or like there are people in the, in like on TV. Yeah, girl crushes, right. That I have girl crushes on. But I would say, I think the differentiation, maybe, I mean, maybe you have this too, is when I watch Friends and I see Rachel,

I also am like, oh my God, I'm obsessed with her. But for me, it's I want to be her. Right. I want her life, not I want to be with her, you know? Totally. But it's a fine line. I feel both, which is so confusing. Of course. I feel both. Yeah. And sometimes I probably shouldn't say this, but there are women who come up that I don't think I could date them because I would feel bad about myself being with them because I don't compare myself to a guy in the way that I really wish you could have like if they have it does it make you compare yourself to them just by being with them and particularly seeing them naked and being like oh my god their body I don't know there's interesting but so have you had that experience no because I don't swipe right on those people like there's literally women that I'm like, I couldn't. I mean, look, if Jennifer Aniston wants to go on a date. But is it because you feel like they're too good for you? Or is it

that you feel like that you'll be jealous of them? I think it's probably a mix of both. Like, not even that I would be jealous. Maybe I'd be jealous. It's more that I would feel insecure about my body. Right. That I would feel so ugly. Body dysmorphia. Right. more that I would feel insecure about my body. Right. That I would feel so ugly. Body dysmorphia. Right. But that I would become obsessive about my body to keep up or something like that. Right. But you don't feel that in a heterosexual. No. You don't feel that with a man. No. That's so interesting because I think a lot of people in heterosexual relationships feel that. A lot of women do of like I my partner or this person I'm going on a date with is so hot I either feel like bad about myself or not as hot or I need to keep up to match his hotness so that he still likes me I think that's common yeah that's

interesting it's interesting that it's not across the board that it's only for women with you. Because, yeah, I, you know, to me, it's just two so different bodies. But if it's a woman, it's literally the same. It's like the same body part. And you're like, oh, my God, this body part is perfect. And this, mine in comparison. Wow, interesting. Isn't it funny? Especially like the most intimate parts.

We have different parts well as you learned as you learned from our experiment you don't always know what people's what's happening under people's bodies yes that's true under their shirts yes wait what's our experiment well we drew each other's boots sorry i was like what did we do yes that's exactly right because you thought that you knew well you knew so I did pretty good but that's because I'm a good student you are but yours was really bad of mine it was really bad I think I have the spatial disability I actually did some googling afterwards oh where I'm like I have this why did that look like that and then I love that you were such a great student that you didn't even do the drawing great.

You also did a super zoom. I did a close up. Yeah, you did two different angles. Well, I'm really bad at drawing, so I had to give options. It was great. Synced is supported by Vegamore. So can I tell you a funny story when they sponsored race to 35 yes i like continued to buy because i love their eyelash serum like anytime anyone does my makeup

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V-E-G-A-M-O-U-R.com slash synced, code synced to save 20% off your first order. vegamore.com slash synced, code synced. What if you fell in love with a woman? How would you feel? Sort of like the example of a friend. I mean, I thought about it so much since our friend had this experience. I was sort of a big part. No, I was such a big part of it.

I was the first person this person told. Wow. And she was so distraught for like a month. And I asked a few times, I was like, are you okay? What's going on? And she would say nothing. And at one point she said, it is something, but I'm not ready to talk about it. And I was like, okay, well, I'm always here if and when you are. And then at some point she told me, she was like, I was with her friend and I really wanted to grab her hand. Oh. Which is like the sweetest thing.

And of course, and this is like, I'm saying this as a warning to cis straight people who I think tend to do this. Me, I tend to do this. I'm starting to do this with you. Like I can feel myself like want to say, but how do you really know? Okay. You know, and I was kind of saying that to her. I was like, well, maybe you just felt a compulsion like to, I mean, she was so distraught that it was so obvious that like, clearly it was more than that. And that she doesn't necessarily have the vocabulary or the words or anyone has the vocabulary or the words to say what the feeling is. We want such hard lines of like, no, tell me exactly what the feeling is so that I know what the feeling is so that I know, like for my own

personal knowledge. But that's not how it works. Like people can't articulate. But yeah, she was like, I really wanted to hold her hand. And I said, well, I don't even know how I said it. Maybe you just wanted to touch her or like hug her or be close to her. But I don't think that necessarily means that you're gay because she was so upset. Of course. And so I did feel this need to try to fix it or something or tell her like, oh, no, you don't need to be upset because what you're feeling is probably not what you're feeling. Yeah. So stupid and bad. No, it's not. It's not. You're trying to soothe her.

But it's a mistake. It's not accurate. I mean, you didn't go like, no, you're not. No, no, no. I definitely didn't yeah and I and I did say I was like how do you feel about if that's if you are like I think it was extra for her because she was like I don't know what to do because this is a person in my life so you know that was a whole thing um I don't know if she'd be mad if I said this but I mean they are together now and it's a very happy ending and it's like the best story ever it's such a good good, it's so happy. But yeah, I do think there's this need for people

when they hear it, if they don't understand it, to like try to figure it out so quickly and immediately. And I think it's on us to say to ourselves, you don't have to define it. It doesn't have to be so. Yes. And that's what helped me so much actually. And when I told my parents, I didn't even say I'm bi. I think I said I'm just queer. And like, I guess now I've come around to just

being like, I guess, but even bi, like, I don't identify in my head as that. I know that I have to say that to other people so that they can understand me, but it's not really an identity for me. It's just who I am and what I felt. And it's the best word for other people to understand me, but I don't even need a word. Yes. Like it just is. Yeah. You know, in the way that you, you know, being attracted to men, like it's not your identity, you know?

Exactly. It's just like, oh, I just am. That's just how I feel. And it's a bodily thing, right? Like with my Carmen Electra example, where I was like, I didn't want to, I was like, what is going on in my body? Right. Why am I staring at this, you know, for so long?

And, and, and yeah, it's scary. When you stare, is it like, I want, I want to be close to that? Like, what is... Well, with Carmen Electra... I can't, it's so hard. No, no, it's okay. I don't care. With Carmen Electra, it was not, I want to be in a relationship with you and I want to,

you know, be romantic. It was like, I want, like, I'm turned on. I'm physically on. I'm physically attracted to Carmen Electra. Right. Which I had like pretty, I guess like pretty average taste for teenage boys at the time. Sure. Like, Carmen Electra was kind of the... She's hot. Yeah. She was very Rachel Geller too. Yes. I have a type, I guess. And, and again, I like when women share this because I can relate to men sharing that they had like a Carmen Electra poster in their rooms. Right.

And like, you know, growing up and that they, you know, really. And again, I know what that means, right? You're like staring at her. But yeah, did you have a crush on Carmen? Like who was your? Yeah, Carmen Electra would be there. I mean, I had a Dennis Rodman poster on my wall too. Okay.

She was such an embodiment of like, quote, femininity, but sexual femininity. Yes, she was very sexual. She was very sexual. So hyper-sexualized. Yes. So of course,

a lot of young boys are going to be attracted to that. But I also wonder if a lot of young boys felt that they needed to be attracted to that. Sure, sure. And maybe they weren't necessarily,

but it's like, oh, but that's this embodiment of sex. Yes. So I should like that. Right. The pose in this ad, she was very overtly sexual. And I think that,

honestly, what just came through was like, oh, I like boobs. Like, I like women's bodies, you know? And maybe it's not Carmen Electra as much as like the way that she was, you know, made to pose and be in that that was so sexually charged. That was this, it became undeniable for me in a way that maybe with watching friends,

Rachel and her cute little apron and like. You could have done what I did, which is like, I just want to be her. She's awesome. Totally. And sometimes I do have trouble knowing the difference. Even when we first met, like I loved you so, and I still do, obviously. Those first few weeks, I felt like I was like falling in love with you. Oh my God. But I was, but not- Well, we were. We were.

So that's true. That is tricky. And I think I talked about it to, I don't remember what friend, I think I did. I was like, I just like really, like really love her. Like, and I was like, I hope it's not like a, because I didn't want to develop like feeling like romantic because I knew that that was gonna, you know, I don't want that for anybody. I don't want that for you or for me. Right. So, okay. But that is, okay.

This gets, this is interesting. And this was my friend, right? Like she ultimately, she had to tell her friend, which ended up working out great because the friend reciprocated the feeling. It's the best scenario. What a great scenario. But what would happen if you did and then you told me and I would be so, I am so flattered. This is such a flattering.

This is so flattering. I'm so, see, my internalized stuff, and I don't have this as much, but in my 20s, one of the reasons why I didn't want people to know is I didn't want my female friends to think that I was attracted. Like, I didn't want them to feel creeped out by me, which is really sad. That is so sad. And so even I feel nervous telling you, and I've never told you, even though, like, I had many opportunities to, where I was like, oh, like, I don't want her to think, like, I don't want her to again this is so internal you know internalized you know homophobia but like i don't want her to ever think i'm like you know lusting for her or like that i'm crossing a boundary or like if i if we do have this amazing moment that i'm somehow romantically trying to get into her and so that's the fear you know um i understand

that fear and it definitely i i feel like, is old and comes from being young. Totally. And maybe some people would react badly. I think this for men is huge, by the way. Like gay men, again, for the longest time, gay men were allowed in the military. And it's like the underlying idea there is that you'd be attracted to your fellow. Yeah, and you'll make the straight person uncomfortable. Yeah, which is so stupid.

Yeah. So I think there's a lot of, you know, gay panic. Yes. I mean, because this can also happen in a heterosexual friendship, right? Totally. And it has happened to me many times. Me too. Where I've liked a person and they're in my life and I either tell them or I just recognize that this is not going in that direction. And I just on my own, I'm like, okay, well, that's not coming to fruition. But that hasn't affected my relationship with any of these people. I mean, that's a testament to you because I've had it happen and I couldn't. It was, you know, I think it's hard. I think it's a testament to you.

Well, I also I think I have some practice in like, if I couldn't be friends with everyone I liked and they didn't like back, I wouldn't have any male friends. So is that a thing? You kind of fall in with your male friends? No, but I mean, when I was young. Oh, young. Okay, got it.

Yeah, this is all what you're based in, right? Like when I was young, I felt like nobody liked me and definitely the boys that I liked, they didn't, but I still liked those people. So I wanted to keep a relationship with them. So that's learned for me of just choosing to maintain a relationship, even if they don't romantically like me back. Even if it's not the relationship you would want. Yes, exactly. But I can adjust, I think. But over time, you learn how. But okay,

so anyway, I'm extremely flattered. That's really nice. I think it would have been fine if the feelings had come to fruition. I think you could have told me and I think we would have been fine. Yeah. I mean, I never had this urge to hold your hand, right? Yeah. And even though I had like, I was like, Oh my God, she's so... No, no. I'm kidding.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But I also think that, again, I was like, Oh my God, she's so pretty. She's so, like, I feel so... And I think what was happening too is we would spend time together and then I would go... And I've kind of talked about this,

but not really like in the... Where I would go on a date with a guy and I'd be like, I wish I was with Monica. Like Monica is so much more interesting and funny. And like, I have so much more fun with her. And you're so pretty and attractive. And like, and I just was like, oh, my God, this is so fun. Like, and but yeah, I friend zoned it for myself.

And also, again, it wasn't the our friend, right? I'm in pieces and i can't function when i'm around her she couldn't not yes like it was so overpowering in a way that was so undeniable that she had to say something right well i feel kind of like bad that you were i feel like i wish you had shared it okay if you were you were, if it was like, not struggling, obviously we're not struggling, but if you were conflicted,

you could have shared it. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I do feel flattered. And we, now we don't have time, but we will do, we'll try to do one quickie. Okay.

Let's do a quickie. Okay. But I think it was worth, it was worth that exploration. Yeah. Thanks for your questions. Thanks for being so open. And I won't say it, but I mean, I just, I do think in this day and age, it can be hard

to ask people questions because there's a lot of fear that you yourself will get judged or canceled or people will be angry at you if you don't understand something, especially in like a woke sense. If you don't fully understand it or you have questions, people get mad at you. They just want you to all just like magically know stuff. Right. And that's not how life works. You learn stuff by asking questions. Yeah.

And I stand by that in all regards for everyone. And so I'm grateful that you are a place where I can ask questions. Yes. And it's because I heard people having these conversations that I was able to accept myself and to navigate those conversations too, right? Like, not everyone is where you're at. Exactly. Not everyone is where you're at. And I also think that the way that you're asking

questions you're not you can tell right particularly my friends with disabilities will say this where it's like i can tell you're asking this for you right as opposed to trying to understand and learn more about me that's 100 the you know the conversation we've had i i feel like you're just trying to understand me better and that's just beautiful. And so thank you for your great questions. I think about this a lot because there's a lot of anger out there. And in social media and stuff, there's a lot of people sticking in their heads. They're sticking up for other marginalized groups. And by the way, I think that's a beautiful thing.

Maybe it's not obvious, but I hope to do that for people. I think I do. But I also recognize because I am in a marginalized group. I know that if I had just been angry at every single person my whole life who had done anything racist or held some racist ideas that I knew were problematic. But I had to accept a lot of that. And I am better off for that. I'm better off for seeing a whole person and not just rejecting like immediately. Oh, they have this bad thought.

I'm they're bad. I can't be friends with them. I don't want to know them anymore. I wouldn't have anyone in my life. And you have to understand that people aren't perfect. They're just not. And I'd rather have people in my life and also expose them to different races and different things and be a part of what changes their mind as opposed to just like, you're bad, bye. Yeah, I love that.

Okay, let's do it real quickly. These are really good, but they're intense. They're intense. Okay, let's do this one. Can I cry at work and still be taken seriously? Wow, good one. I work at a very nurturing and accepting company run by women. Thankfully, it's a place where I can show up as my whole self, which I feel very grateful for.

A few weeks ago during a meeting, I received some moderately frank feedback from a colleague and felt very triggered. I started crying and could not stop until I left the room and let it run its course. I'm planning on addressing the way this feedback was delivered, but the scenario brings up a point I've been mulling over a lot recently. What place does crying have in a career? I'm a highly sensitive person and I've learned through lots of therapy to embrace my emotional side. It's what makes me good at what I do. But sometimes I worry these emotions will prevent me from being taken seriously in my career. I have ambitions of creating something of my own someday, but I worry that I won't be able to make it in a world that sees my crying.

Something feels like an inextricable part of me. It will hold me back from a professional world built without these emotions in mind. Yeah, it's tough because I want to say, of course, of course you can cry and cry all the time and it's fine. But we also have to address the reality that people do want, oh God. I mean, I can go into it. Stability. Yeah. Crying does not mean you're unstable. It actually means you are stable. It means you're regulating go into it. Stability. Yeah. Crying does not mean you're unstable. It actually means you are stable. It means you're regulating your emotions appropriately. The problem is the way the world sees it. As a fellow HSP, highly sensitive person who's cried at work, and I had a similar situation. Mine was at a previous media company I worked at where I really,

I think I had kind of a panic attack, right? So I actually had to go into the corner of the room and stare like a kid because I couldn't stop. I was very upset and visibly shaken. And the person in the room ended up being like, are you okay? And I was like, I need to take a minute because I don't want to have this conversation while I'm in the state, but I'll get back to you. Right. And that's my go-to even in romantic relationships. I know that I can get wrapped up in, and not even wrapped up, I think if you're a highly sensitive person, like you are no longer a person having an emotion,

the emotion is having you. Like you are engulfed and it's great to express it, but expressing it in the right way is going to be an important hack for your life. I think about the difference between, and I think about this with men and masculinity too, which is the difference between emotional expression and emotional responsibility.

You know, we tell people, express your emotions, yes, but also take responsibility for those emotions. Yes. And it seems like you are, right? You're conscious, you're aware, you're not just like, you're not making your emotions other people's problems, right? You're saying to yourself, I'm going to explain what I think was wrong when I'm not in that hot zone. But maybe this is bad

that I'm telling a woman this, but yeah, I don't think it helps us to cry at work and particularly in front of men. I think that it's good to show that you're visibly upset and that you're going to cry, but leave the room and say, I'm very upset right now by what's going on. I'm going to need to take a minute. And then I want us to talk about this at this time or at a later date so that you're not hiding, but you're still taking responsibility for the emotions that you're feeling. I think that's great advice. Yeah. Remember, you're not stuck in a situation and that you, you have, you always have, well, you might not, but you probably have two feet. Some people don't, but that's okay. But you can leave a situation. This reminds me of the Rihanna thing I sent you. It's so funny. She's trying so hard to not get canceled. I have to

play it. You have to. I can't believe I missed it because I just saw it like two days ago and I was crying. Because Rihanna is our fucking god. She's our Roman Empire. She really is. Okay, so I'm going to play it. And he designed some boxer briefs that both men and women and non-binary people of all gender appropriations and the pronouns. Everyone is included. I don't want this to be boxers are for men type situation.

And then we have to make a female. Oh, my God. Gender appropriation. All the pronouns. Like she's trying so hard. And I appreciate that. I really do. That she's just like, I'm trying. I'm trying so hard. And I appreciate that. I really do. She's just like, I'm trying. I'm trying over here. But gender appropriation is my favorite term because we don't talk about gender appropriation. I love her. I felt like that a second ago, which is like an Al-Anon thing.

You have two feet. You can leave the room. And it is reminding yourself that. No matter what your level of ability is, you can leave the room in whatever fashion. Yes. And you can express, I think I need a second. Can we come back? Or let's reconvene. Or I'm going to need. I mean, it's really.

It's asserting it. It's asserting it. And that is powerful. You're not, again, crying and letting it all, you know, you're taking responsibility for it. You're still showing that you're feeling an emotion and that whatever is happening is not okay with you and it's having an effect on you. But you're actually being the bigger person by saying, I need to, you know, you're not going to say this, but I need to self-regulate basically. Yeah. And then I'll come back. And again, you're going to be in a better place to have that

conversation anyways. It's better for you too. And you don't have to say much. They'll feel bad. That's where things get tricky. I think that's where the problem is a lot when women do cry at work. Men feel so guilty and then they get mad at you. Oh, interesting. Internally. Right. Because they feel bad that they have upset you and you showed them that you were upset. And so then their guilt trigger flares, I think. And then I think there can be some anger back out and then some projecting of like, she's just so crazy or emotional or unstable when really they feel bad. Exactly. And that's why by being like, I am really upset right now and I'm going to go take care of that. And I want us to have this conversation when I can be fully here. You're being a boss because you're literally crying and still being in control. I think that's really, really great advice. Also, if you know that there are certain people who are

triggering for you and you know you're going into a meeting, maybe some expectation setting before you enter that meeting of this could go this way. Let's be prepared for it. Crying often happens, I think, when you're so caught off guard. Yes. So some of it is protecting yourself

from being caught off guard. But I love your advice. I think it's perfect. Well, we really did it. We did it. We hit all the points. This was super fun as always. I love chatting with you.

I love chatting with you it's so fun I love it I love these questions I love everyone's comments I'm like excited already about the comments on this one

because I feel like a lot of people have a lot of things to share yeah I love it and we'll be back next week with more questions bye bye