Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Synced: The OT's are OK

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

In this episode of Synced, Monica and Liz report from a storage closet and a bed. They discuss repeating old family dynamics in relationships, codependency in therapy, and Liz's theory of '5 crushes'. They answer listener questions on navigating jealousy in a friendship and if the first date spark is real. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

oh my god are you are you in the closet i am the listeners who listen to the other shows are are very familiar that when i'm home I am in the basement because sound is much better down here. It's not how I envisioned it. Yeah, it's a mess. This is just one of the rooms, but it's like a storage room. So it has all these like extra cooking things. Yeah. I think if your basement doesn't look like that, I don't trust you. This is the storage closet and it definitely reads as such. In the closet.

I love it. How are you? I'm good. Trip is good. Was in New York and now I'm here at home. You know how it is. I mean. Yes, I know exactly.

It's a roller coaster. Well, it's not even a roller coaster because a roller coaster would involve that there's not just an extreme high and an extreme low. And I feel like that's what being home is. Exactly. This is the most wonderful thing ever. I love my family. I can't believe I don't get to see them more often. And then two and a half minutes later, you want to run out. Murder everybody. Yeah. It is so funny. Today, I feel fine. But the day I came into Atlanta and then yesterday, I've been so tired for some reason and just exhausted and feeling

so depleted. I feel fine today or more normal. But it was funny because a few minutes in, my mom's like, you look beat. And I was like, why are you saying that? Even though, of course, Mom's like, you look beat. And I was like, why are you saying that? Even though, of course, that's how I felt I was. But why'd you have to say it? And we were at my grandparents yesterday. And my grandmother was like, Monica, you look different.

First of all, she said I look taller, which that was really exciting. Yeah. Like, oh, my God. Cool. Maybe I'm getting taller. I should measure myself. The comments from family members, just the gamut. But I've never heard taller.

Me either. And I said, well, maybe it's just my shoes. I mean, I wasn't really wearing heels or anything, but I don't know. And then she said that she thought maybe I looked thinner. And then my mom was like, well, she's tired. And I was like, oh my God, stop. Everyone stop right now. I was going to laugh and say, well, you look taller. It's a remix. It eventually gets to weight. You're like a turkey and they're trying to weight you. You're like, she's lost some weight or she's putting on some weight. For me, my feeling is just an assessment of how I am. Like if I showed up 40 pounds heavier, they'd be like, she's doing great. And immediately assume that that's a good thing. And then obviously the reverse, I think it's like a mom thing of like,

they don't know what's going on in your life. Really? Right. I know. I know. They suddenly have like a marker and they're trying to connect with you around that. But it's very like judgy or again, just like you're getting comments. It's just so different than how I live my life normally. And so I forget that it's such an adjustment when I'm here. And it feels like last time I was here was a really, really good trip. And I didn't have much of this. It must have been me. I must have been in a different place or something. There's no way they were different. That's true. But still, I was just like, oh, my God, how am I going to make it through this? Because then, of course, then like

an hour later, this huge debate at the dinner table and not about current events, luckily, but about some other family stuff. And it was just getting so angry and heated, but not like in a way that was going to last more than four minutes. But still, I just felt like I can't behave like this in real life. And so this makes me feel so out of sorts to be back in it. Right. I was on a family FaceTime last night and it did get into an argument about current events. And when I was 11, I was hearing my parents fight so much.

And I was like, they're getting a divorce. And then I went downstairs and I was like, I was hearing my parents fight so much. And I was like, they're getting a divorce. And then I went downstairs and I was like, I know what's going on. I understand. I'm 11. And they were like, no, no, no, we're not fighting. We're fighting about something in the news. And I was like, what is it? And it was Israel-Palestine.

No. It was. It was not a fun phone call. It was them grabbing the phone away from each other. Oh, Lord. But yes, I think families just let it all hang out. In such a crazy way that you can't do. It feels unacceptable. I mean, there are so many things that are happening that I just am like, guys, don't you see this is unacceptable behavior?

No one can get away with this in real life. And I think maybe we've talked about this a bit. Having grown up in that, I do have a lot of fear that if I end up in a marriage that I'll do that or something because I really don't like it. I don't like essentially taking everyone for granted. That's what it is. It's like, we'll just say whatever the fuck we want, however the fuck we want to. And a little bit is, I do think some of it is cultural. I do try to excuse a piece of it based on that. But it's out of this level of safety that's like so ingrained. ingrained. It's like the way I guess like a kid often talks to their parents, but I don't want that in a relationship. And since that's been modeled, I have fear around that. But you also talk to your parents like that, right? We roll our eyes. I think we both are lucky to have really healthy relationships with our family overall, even though there are things that happen and it's not perfect, but I'll get mad at them for doing stuff like that to me. But then I also realized I still

sometimes interact with them like I'm still a teenager. Yeah, for sure. I revert there pretty easily, especially when they become this way. It's like we all revert to 1994 and we're all playing our little roles. I mean more, I'm worried about when I get married. I'm not worried about this. Like this is established, right? This is the way it is. I do my best and sometimes I do better than others. I think for them too, truly. But it's the way I grew up and the way that's been modeled them, their relationship. I worry that if I get married, I'll do that. And I really, really, really don't want to because I think it's really not, it's just not how I want to be in a partnership at all. And so that scares me a little. I understand that. And we learned from our parents, there are things that we

want to keep and then there are things that we would want to change. So did they with their own parents, right? You kind of get a fresh new start when you start your own family. But people just repeat, I see it. And also once you've been with someone for that long, my parents have been together for over 35 years. There's no frame of reference for me with a relationship. Not that I haven't been in a relationship for several years, but still that's nothing compared to 35. Can we expect anything else from them? They're fully themselves and it's nuts a little bit to see. There's something beautiful about it too, right? Imagine being with someone where you literally don't hold back anything and they know everything

about you. Because even if you've tried to keep things secret, it's pretty hard. But it's not even secret. I think it's a beautiful thing. Well, that's secret. Yeah, that's the wrong word. You shouldn't be able to just act on your worst self all the time. I don't think that's good. And I do think with some of these types of relationships that are so long, they do that.

I just really don't like it at all. Well, hopefully you find someone who can see your worst self. Cause that's the thing. Alain de Botton wrote this big article in 2016. It was like the most viral article that year, right? Of why you'll marry the wrong person. And it's this whole idea that we go on dates trying to find positive things that we have in common. Like, oh, you also love to go to the museum and you also love the environment or whatever. And not that those things don't matter, right? If you have nothing in common, it might be a hard relationship, but that he said you should go on a first date and figure out what makes you nuts and then figure out if you can tolerate it in the other person. And in order to be able to tell someone what makes you nuts, you need to know what makes you nuts. And when I meet someone who

doesn't know what their thing is, that's where I get worried because I'm like, I'm going to learn it. And then I'll have to show it to you and then you'll be mad at me. And maybe it's an unrealistic expectation of love, but someone seeing, yeah, hearing your worst joke and then laughing anyways, right? Or loving you anyways is kind of it. But you can't, yeah, you can't take them for granted and expose them to all of your toxic behaviors. But the idea that they will never see them. A hundred percent. They're going to see them. But I think there can be a sense of, well, be a sense of, well, there's no reason for me to work on myself. And I think you should be constantly working on your issues and the problems that you have and your behaviors that are toxic or bad or harmful. And when you have that level of safety, I think it can be easy to not. And no

one's asking you to, or if they are, they're screaming it. It's always enlightening when you're around your family. Family of origin. Is it been nice to be in your childhood room? You know, I saw this tweet. It was like, when you do therapy from your bedroom, it's like live from the crime scene. A hundred percent. I love that. Oh, wait. Speaking of that, hold on. Uh-oh. I think I have therapy tomorrow, but I have to. What time is it there?

It's 820. I know. The time difference is. I have to cancel within 24 hours. You literally canceling therapy in the middle of our. Yeah. It's hard because I never know what my schedule will be when I'm here. Sorry. No, do it. It's very important. If I miss a therapy session or I don't show up,

it's hours and hours of guilt. I don't know why I get so weird, but it happened to me once. Well, more than once. Where you forgot? Yeah. I really forgot. It was like waking up out of a fever dream. Like I was like, and I was like, told her I was so sore and she was like, it's okay. You know, you've apologized enough, but it's weird. Wait. So then this is kind of interesting. Do you think you have some codependency with your therapist?

For sure. You do. Well, I don't know how deep I can go into this, but my therapist has known me since I'm eight years old through my mom. And so she is in many ways, not like a second mother, but she feels like she's part of my family. And I know a lot of people will go, what? You all have the same therapist?

Like they think that that's weird and shouldn't happen. But just given the dynamic and the things that happened in our family, it's actually really helpful to have someone who knows everything, who literally was there. It just means I have less like, here's a PowerPoint. And I actually think that because there are things that she knows that I don't even know, it's complicated. But now having worked through certain things with my mom, I wasn't in therapy as a kid. It was the 90s. That was crazy. But there are things that she did actually to directly help my mom be a mom to me. So it's very moving, her place kind of in our family. But you don't have a codependent

relationship with your therapist? I don't think so. I really think I have a healthy relationship with her. You know, I had, this is funny. This therapist I currently have, I've had for two years. I had another therapist before who was great, but there was some specific needs I needed to address that I knew she had experience in a very specific thing. But it's really funny because I do have codependency slash guilt around the original therapist. Oh, yeah. Because I stopped going to her. I didn't have a conversation. You didn't? No, because I also wasn't at that point in time. I wasn't seeing her regularly. I wasn't seeing her like weekly. It was kind of more emergency by the end.

So it didn't feel necessary. But I have a friend who knows her. Like as a friend? Yes. Okay. And so sometimes I just feel like, oh, God, I wonder if she thinks I'm bad because I didn't have a conversation or I wonder if the therapist is upset by that. I didn't have a conversation or I wonder if the therapist is upset by that.

But also, I truly believe in practicality. A therapist can't be mad about that. Like that's actually their job is to understand people's needs change and are affected and that they maybe don't owe you that, especially if it's every if it's the way it was. I guess if you're seeing someone every week, maybe, although not really. It's not like if all of a sudden I started a new general practitioner, you're not telling your original practitioner I'm moving somewhere else. You just do it. But we have this different sense with the therapist because they know so much about

you. But it's funny because they know so much about you, but you don't know anything. I mean, you do in your case. Yeah. She doesn't share a lot. I feel like psychiatrists weirdly share a lot. And you're like, well, it's like a weird thing. Psychiatrists are interesting. But there's this intimacy that comes with therapy. But it's funny because I think if you are doing it sort of correctly, the intimacy is one sided. You shouldn't feel that you owe that. That's part

of the thing you're working on to begin with is like boundaries and not all of that stuff. And so I don't know. I just find it so funny. But yeah, the original therapist, the OT. OT. I do have some guilt about. She's really cool. My take on it is that she definitely, not that you did anything wrong, but I think she definitely thinks about you because therapists are people too. I've learned it through being in therapy that, you know, at one point, you know, I was talking about a situation where there was someone in my life that was not very helpful. She was like, well, who in your life like would be, you know, which is a great thing a therapist can do or a friend, right? If you have a friend that's telling you about a problem, a very, you know very difficult relationship, it's about like, okay, let's look at relationships

where you do feel like you can be yourself. And I started naming people. I named you, I'm sure. And then she was kind of waiting like- For her? No. But it wasn't even a ego thing. I think she just wanted to know that she was a helpful person in my life, but she didn't even come up in my head because I'm like, you're not- My friend. Yes. She can't be your friend. That's not, sorry. And now I'm, you know, I'm totally paraphrasing.

See, now you're getting worried that she's going to listen and be upset. Yeah. I only have an OT and I want to keep my OT. But no, I think she said like, who is supportive or who are voices, right. That, that are, you know, and that's when I realized like, oh, and even at one point I was like, you're only saying this because you're my therapist. She was saying something positive about me and my life or whatever. And I don't actually do this a lot where I don't really defy her in that way. I think that's, I don't know. I don't think that's helpful. But in that moment, I was kind of like, yeah, but like you, and she was like, Elizabeth, she calls me Elizabeth. She was like, Elizabeth, do you think that I work with people that I don't like that? I'm just lying about liking you because you pay me as opposed

to like, do you think I could really talk to you every, every week if I didn't delight in who you are and think these things about you. And that was also a helpful moment where again, therapists are people. And then have you had friends who have fallen in love with their therapist? I know three people who had to quit their therapist because they started falling in love with them. And one of them was in a full relationship and she was aware that this was not real, right? Because she's like, I don't know him, but he's cute and he listens to me. And she had to stop. And I think she ended up telling him, but I would think that there are a lot of therapists who like, yeah, some people stop calling you and it might be because

they've literally fallen in love with you or they don't like you. But from the therapist's standpoint, they don't know. It doesn't have to be that. It's not you either are in love with them or you don't like them. That's a horrible way to look at it. No, it's it's I think we've hit the limit here of what we can do together. They are people. But in my head, they would have the feeling, right? They'd have the feeling of, oh, God, what happened to her? She didn't like me. And oh, no, of course. But my hope for a lot of reasons is that they have the tools, what they would then tell somebody else, what they would tell a client, which is it's not about me. Obviously, they're here for help. That's why they're here. They're not here to be my friend. They're not here to have this intimate relationship. They're here to

get help. I wouldn't want you to be here if it's not working. So I would hope that after the initial human thoughts, they'd have the professional thoughts. I think my current therapist, my CT, would do that. She would have that line of thinking. It's why I actually do feel very safe with her. She's so level headed and systematic in her thinking while understanding, again, the human thought and then following that up with a more objective thought. Right. She's so good. You know, I don't know, but OK, I probably have to cut this. No. Well, I don't know because I don't know how revealing it is for the OT. But my friend who knows the OT posted something recently with her and had commented that she's been upset for three years and she doesn't know why. trip or something and they were talking about some meals and like how her friend made this meal. I saw this and thought, oh my God, I really want to make that. I really want to make that. I really

need the recipe. So I asked my friend and I don't know if that was rude. It's so funny because I also have a strength. I probably can't share, but like an ex of mine, it's definitely a red flag if you're trying to fix them with your therapist. That wasn't really my responsibility, but my ex ended up seeing my therapist for several months and I knew that it was helpful while we were together. And then my therapist was like, he ghosted me and she clearly felt hurt by it. Interesting. So my theory is everyone's a person. And even if you have the tools and you're going to get out of it, your first reaction might be you're still human. Well, I agree. That's what I'm saying. I think you have the reaction, but I would hope that you'd follow it up with the tools. Yes. I think the OTs are okay.

Yeah, they're fine. They'll make it. We are supported by Way. As you know, I do gift guides. You do. They're so good. I do. And I do think this year I'm going to do some focus on skin, hair, body.

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I mean, the weather's not even getting colder. I just need the fall to arrive. I don't really want to go on dates, but I feel like I need a crush. I basically had a crush and then I can't say what they did. But I mean, it's boner shrinker. But also it was a dangerous crush. Exactly. There were already flags. I mean, flags is an understatement of the year. Yeah.

Okay. So you had a crush and now that's not a crush anymore. Yeah. And I just think I have too much space in my head right now. I just need a crush. And there was a whole theory out there that you should always have five crushes. more. Yeah. And I just think I have too much space in my head right now. I just need a crush. And

there was a whole theory out there that you should always have five crushes. Oh my God. Monica, Liz, listen though. Five crushes is not five people that you're actively going on dates with. That's not what I'm recommending at all. Five crushes is one person that's at work and you think is kind of cute or your barista that serves you your, you know, little coffee every morning, the dog walker that you run into sometimes not at nine 30 at night during the day. If you have issues with codependency or again, that you zero in because I zero in on people too much sometimes. Oh, I see. You're trying to diversify as opposed to just removing the level of love addiction. Yes. Because what happens when you are so fixated on one relationship, quote unquote,

working out is that you'll end up doing things or changing yourself or trying to change them, doing all of the fun behaviors that make your life a living hell. And so one of the things actually is recommended for people who have codependency is like actually to date several people. I don't like dating several people. I find that exhausting, but I think it's good to have like a wide array of cuties. Okay. I'm not going to fully reject that because I think there's merit. I do think it's too exhausting to be just on a constant, like, who do I like? And I do think it's love addict-y, personally, to just be like, oh my God, this person's cute. Oh my God, I like that. I like that. I like that. That's, to me, overwhelming and exhausting. But look, we're also

different people, and what serves me is not necessarily what's going to serve you. Totally, yes. And I think for some people, I totally agree. I think for me, it just means I'm actually not being love addicty. If I have a few people that I find interesting or with who there might be, it's not even potential. It means I'm not overly focused on one specific relationship. Obviously, there's a ranking, like the cute person that you saw at the post office isn't like a person that maybe you've actually been on a date with. For me, it creates this framing of there's so many possibilities. And one thing not working out doesn't mean that, you know. Your life's over.

Exactly. But that's my tendency. And for you, it might be something completely different. So this might actually create more problems. Right. How interesting. Yeah. Five crushes. So this might actually create more problems. Right. How interesting. Yeah. Five crushes.

Yeah. It's like a theory. I think it was this woman that, again, I should just Google it, but I think it's of the same school of thought that if you're single and you're open and you want to be in that vibration, it's giving one compliment to a stranger every day, but genderless, right? Like it's not about, oh, I'm going to give them a compliment so that we get married. It's just changing your mindset. Of just being open and being interested.

Seeing good in others. I like, I do like that. I'm not going to do it, but I like it. I'm going to do it this week. I'll tell you how it's fundamentally changed my life. Oh my God. Write down the compliments because I want to hear what they are. Actually really do it so that we can talk about it next week. I'll tell you how it's fundamentally changed my life. Oh my God. Write down the compliments because I want to hear what they are. Actually, really do it so that we can talk about it next week. Okay, great. Okay, let's do some questions. Okay. This is from Mary. How do I not get jealous of other friends' friendships? My friend just got engaged and I'm so over the moon for both her and her fiance. We are 25, so they are the first of our friends. We were chatting about having an engagement party and she said she wanted to wait until her other best friend was free to come travel to our city, which sounded fair until she picked a weekend that I'm away traveling.

I get that it's not about me and sometimes things like this happen, especially on short notice, but I am hurt. This feels like I am clearly second tier. How do you stay happy for your friend and not let your feelings get in the way? And how do you manage jealousy over other friends' friendships? It's a good question. Really good question. I just think weddings, just life events.

It's one of the things that makes growing up really, really fascinating to me because that's when you find out that you might not be as important to someone as you thought that you were. And again, I'm not saying that this is even remotely the case in this situation, or you can learn that you're more important to someone than you actually were. I remember once not even thinking I'd be maybe even invited to my friend's wedding because we were very close at one point, but we kind of lived separate lives. And she was like, do you want to be my bridesmaid? And I remember being like, wow, I'm so happy. And of course,

but I didn't even... And so that was, again, a readjustment of, okay, you perceive this relationship in this way. I'd perceived it differently. And it doesn't mean that one perception is right. It's just where they are at that time. And their decision is also based on so many other factors that you don't even really know about. And so I think it's normal, again, like our original question, right? Our OTs of just taking it personally and believing that the actions of someone else are directly related to how they view you, your value to them, your closeness, your proximity, your intimacy. But in reality, other people's actions, just like yours, really, really, really about them. And particularly with a wedding, I've never organized a wedding. I hope I never have to because it looks so stressful and difficult. And part of it is, you know, I'm really bad at logistics and details.

Like I'm having a housewarming and I've given half of the people an invite that says Friday and the other half Saturday. And people are like, is it Friday? And I'm realizing I'm probably going to have two housewarmings, honestly. No. Oh my God. I did. Okay. Liz, actually, this is so funny because you sent the invites out via text. I did. And it was confusing because I was in New York with Molly and I got your text. You sent to me and three friends and we responded. And then Molly was like, oh, did you get a text from Liz? And I was like, yeah. And then I was like, wait, why is Molly on a different text? Can you

explain? We don't have a group chat with Molly. Yeah. And so I knew that we had a group chat. So basically I was trying to streamline the process. So you were just like going through your text. Yes. I know that we have a little group that we go to drinks. And so I was like, oh, I'll send it to all of them so that they all have it. I knew that you were traveling too. And I was like, I didn't want to flood you. So I decided to actually do it that way so that it's see like, you could have thought, oh, she didn't send me to me first, which I don't even know. Oh, no, no, no, no. That wasn't the question. I definitely didn't think you weren't sending it to me personally. I was just like, what's happening? She's sending out one by ones. But then this was a group. And then I guess like, yeah, on your behalf, I was like, oh God, this feels chaotic.

It is. It still is. It will be. So is it Friday or Saturday? It's Friday. Okay. Anyway, this is why I don't organize things. That's not my core talent.

So that part for a wedding, definitely it scares me. But then also the emotional thing, right? Where people do feel things about the decisions that you're going to make. And so I want to validate Mary's feelings because I totally relate. That would be really difficult for me. I also think that having empathy for the friend and not as a thing of what you're feeling is not reasonable or valid, but understanding her position of having to organize the biggest party of all her friends and family and the pressure. And I think it's like wedding brain. A lot of your decisions actually are difficult and involve so many factors that you as an attendee don't know about.

So not to assign too much intention to her decisions. It's okay to feel the things that you're feeling, but try not to believe the reason that you think she's doing it is the reason that she's doing it. Yeah. I have a kind of specific take on this because I've only lost one friendship in my life and it ended because I made new friends. I was still very good friends with this person, but I made new some other friends or I should say I got close to some friends and it bothered her a lot and she could kind of not get over it. It ended that friendship and it really upset me because she was so hung up on my relationship with these other people as opposed to my relationship with her. I kept saying, you keep asking about that relationship, but me and you can hang out. Me and you can have a very strong relationship, but you're so focused on this other

thing that we can't. That really bummed me out and actually was telling me, you actually don't care that much about our personal friendship. You care about the larger thing and the larger group. Like, okay, well, if you don't wanna prioritize me and you, that's all I care. I care about having individual strong relationships. And for Mary, I would say,

I think a little bit is reframing. And of course, it's going to hurt your feelings. Of course, these things do. And like you said, it's okay to feel it. But then I think it's about you evaluating your personal relationship with this person. Are you happy with it? And do you feel that it's strong? You're one on one. If you do, that kind of has to be enough. If you feel like this is a relationship that serves me and it feels equal and whole and fun and good and healthy, then you kind of have to remove the other people and the other pieces and be happy with what it is. Because once you start comparing to other people and making it about that, you've no longer

made it about the actual thing, which is your friendship. And I know it's hard to do, but I think it's imperative to do because it will lead to a demise if you start doing all this comparison. You have to evaluate for yourself, is it strong in your head? And if it is, that's all you need. for yourself? Is it strong in your head? And if it is, that's all you need. Yeah. And that if you're in a friendship where it doesn't feel strong or you constantly feel insecure about where you stand or not where you stand, but you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of this happening. Maybe that's something to, again, spend more time thinking about and it can be something internal for you, or maybe it is something in the friendship that's not working. in the same way we do with romantic partners, they have to be all the things and they have to be perfect and they have to be there for us at all times and be so devoted and check every single box of loyalty. And they don't all look like that. They can be lots of different types of things.

You just have to know what it is and be okay with it. And both people have to be okay with it, I think. And it's funny because there's a whole trend right now on social where men are kind of saying, you know, why do women have so many ex best friends? Right. Why do you know? Because there's a whole coming from the Roman Empire. I'll do a PowerPoint of the last month of TikTok trends. But, you know, that women's Roman Empire is their ex best friend. Oh, wow. When I talk to women, they all go, oh, yeah, it's very common.

I think it's women's body count. It's how many friendships have ended. So the reaction has been a lot of men saying, well, why are women's friendships so volatile? Like why are you guys doing, you know, men's friendships last longer clearly than women's because men don't do this. And then women have been reacting saying it's because we have really intimate friendships and we really know each other and it's not just a long-term acquaintance. But I will say that I do think there's a happy medium between those two things. I have been at my worst when I have expected my friends to what you're talking about, right?

Which is have the demands that I would have like a romantic partner. They're not your partner. That's more what I mean. I mean, nobody can be all the things. Nobody can. But I also think sometimes, I'm speaking from personal experience, sometimes women, they don't even realize that they're doing it, but they're putting the kind of responsibility that they would put on a partner on their friends. And there are so many times in my life where I would have needed a friend to be there at a certain moment and they weren't able to be there. And recognizing that they have their full life, there's a whole range of reasons why they weren't available at that time. And they just weren't available. And maybe they will be at a different

point. And maybe I won't be available when they want me to be available, that it's not this fixed thing. And the more I think you can actually adapt and understand and have compassion for yourself for what you need and have compassion for the other person and what they need in that moment, that has allowed actually a lot of my friendships to really survive and to thrive. It's hard. It means taking a beat. It definitely does. It's like me on my walk home from Kara.

Why? Because it's the recognition like, okay, a lot of people can't be here right now to save me. And that's okay. It's not that people are abandoning me. It's that they can't. It doesn't mean they love me more or less. It's just this is the reality that people have stuff and lives and things. OK, I don't totally agree because I literally could have come with my razor. But Liz, that would not have worked. Like, that's actually a great point. And I love you so much for wanting so badly to be someone who could have fixed that situation.

But let's be realistic. You don't have a car. You couldn't. And that doesn't mean you're not an insanely good friend. It's just the reality. Like, that's my that's the point. Right. It's a reality that Callie is a baby. It's not a choice. Like, you know, there's some there's some realities. Yeah. Great question. I think the more we can actually be open about these questions, because it's also so hard to admit this. It's so hard to say you're feeling jealous, especially with your friend that's getting married. You know, you're like,

I'm such an asshole. But actually, Mary, like acknowledging this and writing a letter about it, you've already done half of the work. The more we can actually do that, I think the better our friendships will be. Yeah, I agree. One last thing I'll say is if you're feeling insecure about a friendship, first and foremost, the thing to do is spend more one-on-one time with them. Strengthen that relationship if you want to and don't make it about anyone else. Okay, let's see. Okay. How do you know how many dates to go on when there's no spark? My friends and I are single and I'm going to go ahead and say not the best daters.

You know the kind who will get on hinge, go on a date or two with the guy, decide he's not right, then delete the app for a few months. So we decide we want to try again or let's face it until we decide we want attention. Yes. Love the honesty. Totally. Anyway, none of us has left any of those dates feeling a spark. Some dates are an obvious no, but there are plenty of in-betweens. They were fine, attractive enough, nice enough, but not great enough to necessarily feel excited to see them again.

So how do you know how much effort to put in before deciding they're not a good match? Should there be some sort of date minimum in case they're just shy or haven't opened up yet? Do you think one date is enough and it's on to the next one? Is the spark real when you're 30 plus? The great question. I literally was just thinking about this. I'm excited about this question. Go. No, you go because you probably have a better.

Well, no, I'm such a bad person to answer this because I am like one and done. That's not true. I'm one and done if, actually, yeah, I am fairly one and done if I'm just like, yeah, that was that was fine. I will sometimes force myself like I'll be like, well, I have to go out again because they were nice and like, I guess I should. And so I will. But none of those things ever, even let's say we hang out three times, it's never growing or changing. And so at that point, I'm like, no, but I could have said no after the first time

and save myself some time. So I don't know. I don't know. This is for me. This one is hard. I relate. Yeah. I want to be more like you again this week. I was like, I got to be one and done. I'd let things run too long. And when I clearly kind of knew that it wasn't, but I understand also going on more dates and wanting, like wanting something to work out and also wanting not to give people a chance, but because then there's the whole thing about, they tell you, you're not supposed to feel fireworks. And if you feel really attracted to them, that's bad. And so sometimes I found it very hard to differentiate between, is this someone healthy? Exactly. You've said that to

me where I've been like, I don't know. And you're like, well, is it just because they're not nuts? They're not taking you on a fun ride. They're just steady. on a fun ride. They're just steady. Exactly. And one of my best relationships by far, I went on seven dates with him before I even kissed him. A friend set us up after the first date. I was like, I'm not dating this person anymore. And I called him because I felt like, you know, we got set up. I can't just send a text. And then on the phone call where I was calling to tell him I didn't want to go any more dates, I ended up agreeing to the next date. And then again, and he kept being like, do you still want to do this? Like he was great.

Like he was very self-aware and could notice that I was like needed to go really slow. And in the end, we were together for two years. Wow. And now I recognize I was scared. He was very available. And that in many ways was kind of terrifying. So it's hard because yeah, you wonder, am I going to make a bad decision? Could love grow? So I definitely get the dilemma. Also trust yourself and trust your gut. Particularly, I think on the apps, if it's someone that again, you got introduced to, or someone, you know, background about, and you

know, that there's all these common things like, yeah, maybe go on a second date that maybe you wouldn't. But now when it comes to kind of total strangers, I'm like, believe your gut. And it's just not the right fit. Another advice that I found really useful and I come back to very often is the job of the first date is just to figure out if you want to go on a second date. And then the job on the second date is just to figure out if you want to go on a third date. It's not to figure out if this is the love of your life. Yeah. That's good advice. And that rule has kind of helped me. It's not that you're going on a date with someone that's awful to you. No. But if you're not excited, it isn't the right fit. And you have to go on so many dates to feel the right fit. I think that I end up blaming myself, right?

I should feel excited about this person, but you don't. And that's fine. And that is what it is. Yeah. Also, I was talking to someone about this recently. I think it's just really good to know what you ultimately want. And I don't mean like characteristics. I mean, do you want to get married and or do you really want to have a family? And like, do you know that some people know that they're 100 percent? I want this in my life. I need this. I do think if that's something I need in my life. Then, of course, I'm way more willing to be like, well, this person is not interesting enough for me

to spend time with, so I'm not going to. I think it actually makes it harder when you're in a position like me who's just like, I'm not sure what I need or want. But if you do know that you want a romantic partner, you want a family or whatever, you do have to make decisions based on that. And you probably, in my opinion, have to give people a little bit more leash. Yeah. I also think that men tend to be more simple when it comes to dating. And I don't mean that in a pejorative. I think that so often women like the, I should be attracted to him thing. Men don't do that. I know they just, they're not. And they're not. Yeah. And women, it's like, we've kind of gaslight ourselves, right. With this idea of, you know, I should want to be with him. And it's like, no, but you don't. And that's okay.

I think being a little bit more, not even like primitive, I'm not even talking about physically, right. But that you're just not attracted to them as a person, right? You think they're great and nice, but you don't have that romantic connection. I think men are quicker at just being like, we don't have it. And that's it. Yeah. And part of it is because I do think, you know, I've heard this so many times in reference to women. I don't really hear it towards men, even though maybe it's happening and I just am totally missing it. But women get pegged a lot of being so picky. People have said that about me, like, you're just so picky. And of course, I'm so fucking picky. When is there another time in life to be picky, but choosing your partner? And it is a pejorative that people have placed on, I think,

a lot of women and I reject it. That's great. I love it. So wait, where are you falling? You're like 50-50? On what? On like what you want. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. It's kind of how I always feel where it's, I want someone who I find additive, who brings something to the table that I don't currently have in my life that's comforting and great and safe and whatever. But also I can live without it.

I do know that. I think that makes a huge difference. I think if you're someone who really, and there's so many and it's great, who know that they need a family, that I think changes your trajectory of dating. Yeah, I'm so jealous of you. I wish.

No, it's just different. Yeah, you're right. And again, it's my job to also let go of it and not let it take over. But you know, sometimes I just wish I could date like in my twenties, right. Where it was just dating whoever and not really thinking about things long-term. And sometimes that's been my advice to myself where if I'm overthinking it, I'm like, how would I date if I was in my twenties? As opposed to like, based on one conversation, deciding if this is material and dating is weird. And, and, you know, I think I've said this before, but I just wish we had more opportunities to be like, there are certain people that I've been on dates with where I'm like, if we worked at the same office or if we

went to the same church, right? All things that I don't even currently have. Seeing them in a repeated context, that's not them trying out, you know, and me trying out, but that maybe in a different context, they would end up becoming that way. I do wish that modern life was more conducive to meeting a wider array of people, honestly. Well, it can be if you can join classes, you can start, you know, you can open up. I'm tired. Well, exactly. I'm so tired. At the end of the day, I don't want to go out.

I want to cuddle. I know. And watch TV. Yeah, I get it. I mean, that's the older you get, yeah, the less energy you have and also the less patience you have for wasting your time. I think that's also part of it is just when she says 30 plus. Yeah. Once you get over that age, your life is getting settled.

You know yourself. And I had so much more tolerance for dating. I love the people I was dating in my, I mean, love some of them. Most of them were great, but I knew myself less. I wasn't as specific about what I wanted, the beauty of your twenties and just youth in general. And again, we are still young. There's still so much unfolding and that's unpredictable, but I guess I missed that. It feels more playful and innocent and curious as opposed to, I feel like dating your th 30s is really its own thing. People don't really have chill.

Part of what makes dating fun is just having fun and being open to play and to discovery. I think it's challenging. Yeah. Well, I think that might be all for today. From my storage closet and from you in your bed,

we did it. We did it. And we'll be back together for next epi. Yeah, I can't wait for you to be back. Yay. All right. See you next week. Bye.

Bye.