Artist Friendly with Joel Madden - 6LACK

Episode Date: September 2, 2026

On this week's episode of Artist Friendly, Joel Madden sits down with 6LACK.Born in Baltimore and raised in Atlanta, 6LACK grew up around music from the start — his father owned a recording studio, and he was already stepping into the booth by age four. After cutting his teeth as a teenage battle rapper, he broke through in 2016 with his debut album Free 6lack, which spawned the Grammy-nominated single "PRBLMS" and established the introspective, emotionally direct sound he's known for. His follow-up, East Atlanta Love Letter, debuted at No. 3 on the Billboard 200, and his most recent album, Since I Have a Lover, earned him a Grammy nomination for Best Progressive R&B Album. Along the way, he's collaborated with everyone from J. Cole and Lil Baby to Elton John and Gorillaz.A decade into his career, 6LACK joins Joel in the Artist Friendly studio to open up about how he has spent the last few years simplifying his life — cutting out excess, opportunists, and old habits — confronting the ego he didn't know he had, and learning what it actually means to build a life around what matters most. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

tours like to me it's neck and neck with creating music. You love it. Yeah, like I really enjoy it. We try and space it out to where physically is not too taxing. I love to see how the music, like, affects people because it is so personal. And even though it can be like a large emotional exchange, you know, when you hear the stories and you're talking to folks, I really do love to know, like, somebody might have came to my show in the beginning when they were by themselves. And then they come to the next one and they got a partner and the next one. they got kids and I'm just like to see people grow with me has been the craziest thing ever.

So I called you six slack for a very long time until like more recently. But it's just black. It comes with the territory. Yeah, it's just black. It's a great way of spelling it. Yeah, no, it's number six. How many times do people ask you about that? It's been forever.

I came up with the name. So in the beginning, I used to have raps and freestyles to where I would kind of play off the name. but then we got into the era of the internet and social media and folks were just like, no, I'm gonna call you what I want to call you. And I'm just like, oh God.

I'm like, we're here now, we're here. Yeah, no, I want to call you what you call yourself. Yeah, yeah,

but I'm being honest because for a long time, I already know. I already know. But it's great. I get it though. And we kind of merch that had just like kind of played off of the name confusion. And it'll always be a talking point too.

So I never, I never cared or mind when when folks are figuring it out or don't know. I just think it's very cool. Thank you. I appreciate that. Very cool way to dispel it. Where are you from?

Born Baltimore, grew up in Atlanta, and Atlanta was like from age four until recently. So you were in Baltimore from zero to four. Yep, zero to four. Do you have any like... Memory? Deep relationship with it? Yes, because all of my family is from Baltimore.

Like my mom, my dad, my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, so we will go every year. And I remember being like a stoop baby. You know, you just kind of grow up outside on the front stoop playing basketball. But yeah, like those are my memories. They're like kind of patchy, but I remember being outside. I remember every house that we lived in. I remember some of the not so good.

Well, that would have been in the 90s? 90s, yeah. That was a tough time. Yeah. I remember all that. And coming back every year, too, you were able to see people change and like circumstances change. So yeah, I will come back and I was like the older I got the more I realized like, okay, we moved for a reason.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love it, but we move for a reason. Yeah. Well, first of all, I grew up in Charles County. So that was like south, like southern part of the state, but about an hour and a half from Baltimore and more D.C. side. So my dad and his parents were from D.C. And my dad moved out because they were in southeast. And then southeast became what it was known for, you know,

it became in the 80s it was like crazy so he moved out to start his family with my mom and then so i always grew up down like far down but my grandparents still lived in that part of the city that became known for like crime but it was interesting because like they so he loved dc i would go there in the summers to my grandparents house but like i didn't have like a i didn't live there yeah was visiting yeah you know i get it i have a more of a emotional relationship with DC, then I do with Baltimore, because we didn't go to Baltimore a lot unless we were going to like an Orioles game. Yeah, I think my emotional connection at this point is Atlanta and L.A. Yeah. Like Baltimore, again, I love it and I get to go there and like feel like this is

really where I was born. Yeah, this is where you were born. Yeah, but the majority of my memories and my like extended family. Yeah. I've come from Atlanta and L.A. I also feel like there's like this unsaid rule that you have to like have reverence for this place. Yeah. And you're like, you do have like this like appreciation or like this like emotional relationship with places you were born or where your parents are from. Again, like my dad was from DC. So I had like this reverence for DC.

I could never say I wouldn't live there or whatever. Yeah, although DC's amazing and I would live there. It's interesting how you have to like, you have to be like inside of regional politics. Sometimes I'll have shows where people are just like, tell them you from Baltimore. Yeah, say it more. And I'm just like, it's cool. Like I have no issue saying it. But I'm like, yeah, I got to understand what that comes with for me.

Like, I could go around just saying I'm from Baltimore, I'm from Baltimore. But I grew up actually. But somebody from Baltimore is going to be like, well, where? What street you grew up on? What side? Yeah, yeah. It's too much. It's too much.

So, no, I just let people know I was born there. But Atlanta has been home and right now the West Coast is home. West Coast is for me, I've found. California, again, also, because I go home to Maryland a lot, who three times a year was a lot for me, because I don't go anywhere that much. And people are like, why don't you live here? I'm like, because I live in California and it's amazing.

Yeah, the rain is crazy. The rain, the weather, California. Listen, L.A. is full of lots of other, like, every place has its stuff that you have to get to know and manage. And you have to be, like, each place to itself has its own personality. You have to get to know, like, where you live. I find once you get to know LA, it's the greatest city. It's amazing.

But it's got its own personality. So you're not in Atlanta. You're not in Baltimore. You're not in New York. You're in L.A. And it's just different. But people who live here usually, people who move here usually don't leave because it's, God, it's like such a great place to live.

Yeah, you got the beach, mountains, desert. Never boring. Snow, sun. You can literally go to any part of California in a couple of hours. Like, it's just, you got all the range. You could be vegan. You could be like health for, not healthy. It's crazy.

It's crazy. It's crazy. And who is this? Oh, that's my daughter. Five. Six. What's your name? Nice to meet you. I have a daughter as well.

He's 18. I got a 10, almost an 11 month old now too. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. I appreciate it. Ah, that's great. Love it. I got a 16 year old and an 18 year old.

16 and 18. I cannot imagine. I try sometimes, but I'm just like. day little forever it's cool you got to come to work with a dad today she left her controller for her switch in the car I was like that's a sign that you're just not supposed to be on a media is it in the car outside no we went to check it's not in there so I'm like that's just a sign you're not supposed to be on the game today that's the sign do you take your kids a lot to work no not really honestly I try and keep her as much of a kid

as possible so like she gets to kind of go between Atlanta in LA and she has her, her home wife in Atlanta, and she goes to school, and she does, like, her routine. And when she's with me, normally, it's not work-related. Like, she's been to maybe a couple of shows, once when she was small, and then once when she was old enough to understand what was going on. But it's not, like, a priority to where I'm just, like, you got to be a tour baby or studio baby, or you got to do music, or it's just like, I enjoy seeing her just enjoy life as a kid and not have to worry about social media, perception, or anything like that.

And also, like, still get a little bit of it to where you can, I'm just like, you're not a normal kid by a lot of standards. Like, you get a little more popular than you think, but don't let that, you know, be why you, you know, want to get on social media or want to come to a show or anything like that. So she has a good balance because she can see when something is cool and she's like, it's actually really cool. But then she'll just break back off into her own world and go watch basketball or play 2K and just that's it.

I agree with that. I think if we deny our kids the access they have, we're doing them a disservice. But if we make the access they have the most important thing, then we're teaching them wrong as well. Like I feel like there's this balance, like what you're saying exactly. I'm just reiterating kind of what you said. I've tried to find the balance of like, well, no, you have more access and you're in and more, what I would say, unique situation. than I was. Yeah.

And I'm not going to raise you like that's not there. For sure. Because then I would be denying myself and you of your inheritance, which is like kind of, everyone frames inheritance like it's a bad thing. But it's actually, we have to embrace what we've inherited. For sure. And then, you know, so whatever I inherited from my father, which I didn't inherit money, but he gave me something.

and because I'm his son. And whatever that was, I think about that. And I'm like, I think culture and society, like, tell us that, that, that it's, like, it's a dirty thing or that it's a bad thing or that it's like, it makes you a bad person or it makes you lazy or it makes you all this, like, nepo, nepo, nepo, it's all kind of, like, bullshit. Yeah. It's just how you raised.

Like, who raises you? What morals they instilling you? And, yeah, like, what's the point of going so crazy, working so hard, you know, spending, in so much time on something you love if you aren't able to share, you know, what you make from it, whether it is money, whether it is a place to live, whether it is just access to be able to be around a creative space, like, or if it's just going to a basketball game and getting cool seats, it's just like, let's run it all, like, let's use it all and enjoy it all. Yeah, and also it says, like, to me about the greatest kind of, like, actual gratitude in

action is like something to me, like stewardship. So like if you build this life right over the next, how old are you? 33. Okay. The next 20 years for you is all building, just building a life of actual achievements. Legacy, whatever you acquire, whether it's real estate or this or that, whatever. All of it is part. It's all wrapped up in like someone who's going forward and doing things versus anything else.

Right. So that's what most artists, like we're just, we're building things and we're curing. and we're creating a world we want to live in. My last two years of my life has been like simplifying and cutting all the way back, getting rid of everything I don't need because it was just so much clutter at some point to where I'm just like, I got these shoes that are worth whatever that I don't wear that someone gave to me that I'm not paying attention to that I could get some money from. I got like just junk and things and just I need to really simplify my life.

I had to get everything back down to one household because I was in Atlanta, in L.A., and I had a studio house up the street from where I live. And it was just like, rent, mortgage, mortgage. And I'm just like, these are my things. So I have to take care of my things because. Yeah, yeah. And after a while, I just sat down one day and I'm just like, but why? You know, like, are these the things that you truly want for the rest of your life?

Or are they just in the way of you figuring out how you want to plan the next few years of your life? Like, if you're moving around thinking about multiple mortgages and rents, then you're not traveling as much as you actually want to travel because of your fixed cost. you know and I just had to really talk to my business managers, talk to my partner, talk to myself, and look at everything that I had and just say like, what do you truly not need? Because again, like the things that I want to spend money on at this point in my life, like they need to fulfill me or make me, you know, feel like they're going in a good direction versus they're just stagnant things that I'm trying to maintain because of friendships or work relationships or responsibilities

that I just kind of put on myself. And I'm just happy to finally. be at the part where it's just everything is singular. I'm like decluttering right now. And what I want is starting to change and like sharpen a lot more like versus just kind of blindly feeling like I like something in a moment. And then, you know, a year later, it's just like, what was the point of that? Yeah, you're at that age too. That's the age you turn that corner into like, I think we thought we were grown men in

our 20s, but we act like children. Yeah, we act like, we act like, we act like, we act like. Like that's the thing in our 20s, we do like, we have to be gracious and forgiving to ourselves because like I think it's just part of growing up. But like you act young and you think you're grown, but you're still acting like a kid. And then somewhere in your 30s, you actually realize like what being grown means. And it's something else. Yeah.

It's way different. It's hard to explain. It's not having shit. Yeah. And but I do think you have to go through that. For sure. And the sooner you get it out of the way. Yep.

Like the sooner. you get the keeping up with the thing I thought I was supposed to do like, oh, I have money now. I'm supposed to do this. I'm supposed to do that. I'm supposed to do this. And then it's like, you get tired. You're like, wait a minute. It's like, I'm working for all these things now. I'm not even like working or enjoying like myself. Like I'm literally working to keep up with all this stuff that I just picked up along the way and just like, oh, this looks cool. This feels cool. Yeah. Yeah, it got too much. And I didn't realize how much extra stress it was putting on me because I can kind of assimilate or adjust to anything and I'm just that easy going to where it's just like

it's all fine or it's all right but yeah you just you just never really realize it until someone maybe next to you is you know more aware or sharper than you are to be like hey you look a mess to me right now or like I see what's really going on behind the scenes or I can sense your attitude and I didn't really do anything to you so what's the actual issue and then it just took a minute for me to just be like, I got too much going on. Like, I really miss when things were simpler. And this is all, like, in my control. And I'm just not necessarily making a move on it right now.

Yeah, I learned that, too. I think we all have to learn that. Again, too, like, I think, like, we, uh, I'm guessing, like, probably, like, most of us, we grow up probably, like, more simple. Like, I didn't grow up in a family with, like, multiple houses. and companies and you know what I mean so if I did I think I'd be more adept to have figured it out quicker but it's the thing no one talks about is like what success what we think success is what we think

it looks like what other people say it looks like what Instagram says it looks like what the label guy who's actually just spending other people's money says it looks like what the you know we come into this world where everything feels important everyone's like and and everyone's buttoned up. Yeah. So they're not showing you their fucking closet. Yeah. Their dirty laundry.

Yeah. They're not showing you. You're not at their house where it's a fucking mess. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Like, like we go to an office that someone else pays for. It's all decorated.

It looks so fucking important. You're like, I'm going to listen to whatever this guy tells me. Yeah, yeah. Whatever he says. I get it now. And then, and then you, you go, but you're not at their fucking place. You're not at there.

So you don't hear their private conversations. You don't. And so what I realize in, age was like there's one thing is what we see and then there's the truth and so what we see is some version of the truth doesn't mean it's all a lie sure they were successful in so many ways but what are the other parts of their life what does that look like are they successful are they balanced are they healthy interesting too like working really hard for other people was praised yeah it was like you got to do it what a good guy he goes to go to work every day for that grocery

store. Like, you think that grocery store gives a buck about you? So that's the thing is like I grew up with that for 18 years and they went into the world with that as my, that was my background. That was my information system. So I was upside down. Yeah. So becoming financially free was not, I was conflicted. Becoming healthy, I was conflicted, becoming emotionally like growth, personal growth, like any kind of growth, I was conflicted. So I had to go through my 20, he's conflicted like that. And then by about your age was when I turned the corner. I was like, nah, I think I'm good.

I'm gonna go to therapy. I don't care what anyone says. I'm gonna start investing. I don't care what anyone says. I'm gonna start working out. I don't care what anyone says. And then when I got on that track, now I'm 47, so I'm probably about 15 years in of the work.

And I realized, I still work really hard at my career, but I worked just as hard at myself. Absolutely. And if I had to choose one, I would choose myself. Of course. You know what I mean? Yeah, of course. Pretty wild.

Yeah. My mindset early on, I would have never thought that it would just be that easy of a decision for me. Like if I at any moment felt like it was a choice for sure. You know, it's my partner, my daughters, my family. Even like I feel like doing the work over the last couple of years has made me realize how layered that. that portion of my life is, and it's even down to like my guy friends, like who's supposed to be around,

who's not supposed to be around, who can put me in a compromising position, who's not, who's mature. Like, I had to really filter through a lot of folks who I have been kicking it with for my whole entire life and just narrow it down and say, look, if we're not maturing at the same pace, it's not that we can't be cool,

but, you know, we can't kick it like that. We can't really share space that much because I'm just on a different path right now. And it's not the same. better it's not to say you can't be on the same path like i got all the same tools that you got you can you need some advice need someone to talk to want to do some yoga want to drink a green juice like i can i can help however you want me to help but i can't necessarily like do it for you and i think for a minute i had a lot of guilt when you grow up just around folks and you grow up in music groups and you grow up in

just cruise in general there's always this this uh thing of you know when you make it you know you got bring everybody with you. Then once I started to just see how intricate this industry was, I was just like that. I can't do that. Like, I pay my taxes. Like, I got, there's just a bunch of percentages coming out to where, like, when it's all said and done, daughters, family, myself, that's where it stops. So I can help you in a sense.

But, yeah, that whole mentality of bringing a whole crew with you just, it had to fall apart for a while for me to truly understand, like, what it is to be my own man. and to also just see like what other people are willing to do in their own lives, in their own time. Like if you sit and you watch someone do something for 10 years expecting something to be given to you, it was just like, well, I was practicing and I was reading and I was researching and I was studying and I was listening. So why wouldn't you, you know, be excited to do the same and meet me somewhere? So yeah, it took a minute for me to let that guilt go. I had like, you know, cribs where music homies would stay there and we would make stuff and I would

foot the bill and it was just like, yeah, of course. It all became my responsibility. And then, yeah, over time, I just had to start pulling the plug on everything one by one and just say, no more studio house, no more homey crib, no more of this, no more of that. Like, I really have to focus on being happier and not having multiple responsibilities, multiple homes, multiple things that are just holding me back right now. The lie of like, don't leave anyone behind. This is not true.

It's just not real life. We all deserve to build our own life, build our own families, have autonomy from one another and make decisions that are best for each other. And we should have a relationship. We're like, hey, man, I wish I could do this, but I have to go do that. And right now that's the most important thing for me. And then you go, hey, man, go do it. Like, that's a balanced friendship.

Doesn't mean you can't work together on some things. but dependency is a really dangerous thing. And we, you know, I'd say early on, I kind of created it. Yeah, for I thought I was supposed to. For sure. I think it was, for me, it was my ego, which I wasn't, like, fully aware of during time because I just kind of had this perception of myself that I'm more chill, more laid back, more whatever, than most.

So I'm good. But my ego was, like, lurking beneath the surface to where, again, you just got multiple folks in your house, something happens. Your girl might call it out. And you just like, nah, never. night that's that's my boy from from back then like he would never you know do anything to go against me or he would never steal anything or he would never purposely leave a sink full of dishes like something must something must have yeah but I would make an excuse for everything and I just have to

learn that lesson like immaturely multiple times I remember there was this one time where I had got like my first like just crazy truck and I had it out here and I was going to ship it to Atlanta so I could be there for the holidays, spend some time with my daughter, and my girls just like, don't send that truck out there. And I'm just like, I worked for this truck. I want to enjoy this truck. I'm going to be low-key. I'm going to be chilling. It'll be fine. Of course, I sent it to Atlanta. We go somewhere for New Year's Eve or something, watch movies with the kids. We come back to the car windows, bust out, everything ran through, car seat flipped over. I'm just like, oh, yeah. This is a silly lesson to have to learn because I really just didn't have to bring this car here. It sticks out like a sore thumb

in this city specifically. It's more, you know, normal in L.A. Yeah, L.A. is the land of cars, so you get away you slide. Yeah, when the Urizz first came out in Atlanta, you got all black with the blue racing stripes, it's like, somebody's going to see that. And regardless of who you are or how you, you know, feel you are to people, like, no one cares. Like, they're going to run through that, and that's your fault. And luckily, you know, it was while everyone was away from, from the car. and we didn't have to, you know, run into anybody or experience anything because we had kids all with us. So, yeah. Good learning lesson, but it's nice for someone to label it and kind of flag it as ego,

because for me, I just would have never felt or saw it that way unless somebody was right there just like, you're tripping. Like, you didn't have to do that and you did that. Luckily, we're safe, but you should learn from that. Yeah, but it's young, man. That's what growing up is all about. And also, I would have done the same thing. For sure.

It's wanting reality to be different than it is, like the personality of the place. You go back to that. You already knew it, but you were the same thing. We've all, but that's part of like growing up where you make a decision based on some other stuff besides yourself. And like we only get there by having experience. And then that's when you're the old dad telling your kid, don't believe anything you see in half of what you hear or anything you hear and half of what you see. My dad always just say that. And I would be like, what is he talking about?

don't believe anything you hear and half of what you see. And now as a grown-out, I kind of go, oh, no, I know what he's talking about. Yeah. It's pretty straightforward and simple how things work. And in this career, we like to, we can overcomplicate or make things bigger or make things whatever, but it's pretty straightforward. But I think that's part of like where you're at. I can feel it in your career.

I mean, you've had a ton of success. Do you feel like you've had a ton of success? Yeah, honestly, this is not normal at all. None of this is normal. like I only wanted to do just at the base level some type of music that impacts people in some type of good way that was the the peak of what I thought I wanted to do you know I didn't like have a perception of like I'm going to get nominated for a Grammy or I'm going to sell a million records or it was just like I just want to do something that feels good to me that feels good to

somebody else and that's it so to be able to look back 10 years and just say wow like in 10 years too That's like pretty short amount of time even though it feels long. It's insane what we've been able to pack in the 10 years. And yeah, I definitely feel like it's been a success. Like I'm living a dream. And even, you know, on my worst days, my overwhelmed days, my stress days, my figure it out days, I still know that I'm blessed and I have an opportunity to do something special. And yeah, this is lit.

What's the worst day? What is that like? these days, a worst day for me is not being on good terms with my partner. If we have a disagreement and we can't figure out. Yeah. If we can't figure out a conversation, like, and I just told her like last night too when we had like a little disagreement, I'm just like, look, I'm not being dramatic when I say, when we don't figure it out, I literally do not want to do anything.

I don't want to eat. I'm just like, I stopped taking care of myself like unintentionally and I can't, it can't be that way. I'm like, we just need to figure out how to either call time out and. end it before it gets, you know, too, too colored, or just come back. Like, at any point, that's just not let it get far, because when it gets far, it just, it kills me. You know what I learned how to do? How long have you been with your partner?

Known her since 2013, met her in 2014, and officially in a relationship since, like, late 2017, 2018. Okay, so you're coming up on 10 years. Mm-hmm. Okay. So that's, you're right on track. Because about seven years, eight years in, for me was when I was like, okay, The roller coaster was fun for the first five years.

I was like there's a lot of passion. There's a lot of, you know, it's great at first. And you're like, I like a little bit of a challenge. Then about eight, seven, eight years in, I'm like, I can't really live like this. And then I'm in therapy, though, and I'm like learning how to communicate. Because I will be honest, a lot of it was me. She's the one to call it out. She's the one to be emotional.

She's the one to get mad. Yeah, she got the fire, but it was me. And what I learned how to do was compartmentalize it together and go, hey, I hear you. Can we put it on the shelf and look at it and just come back to it? And I promise you, I'm going to make sure I fix this. And then she's like, no, about 10 times of trying. It started to like come down. For sure.

And then because I would follow up, though, I would follow through. Like, hey, remember that thing you wouldn't talk about? Is it good, is now a good time? you feel like you're in a good place to talk about it. I don't want to upset you. Start park it back up. But then we would circle around on it. And then in practice, we got really good at it.

And now I will say, me and my wife, 20 years now, we've been together 15 married, 16 married this year. We don't fight at all. I love that. And we are together all the time. So I still feel the same way. I also will say the way you feel about your partner is the way I've always felt. about Nicole, we're building a life together. She's a true partner, you know,

and we both have our strengths and weaknesses. And she's also very like a gracious, forgiving person. Like she sees the best in me. And she's been along the whole ride now because we've been together for so long. I was like 27 when I met her or something like that. She's been on the whole ride with me.

And that's taken a lot of like patience. For sure. And she's cool. He's speaking of my life. right now, man. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. But I think the new record, it feels like that. It feels like someone who's in a self-realization period of their life. Yep. Pretty cool. Yeah. It's like the albums before, I feel like have been a linear journey to get to where I'm at today. Like, if you go to the first album and you kind of compare the storytelling from

then and now, it's a lot more self-reflection, like you said in this one, it's a lot more ability in this one. It's a lot more of like just understanding what my role is in all the relationships that I have and what I could do better and how like dedicated I am like at this point in my life to where, you know, it's not always going to be perfect. But now I don't just have the tools. I'm really working on using them. So I like what you were saying earlier too, just about how you handle conversations now because that's where I feel like I'm at to where I know better and my thing that I got to get a little more sharper on is like circling back around and bringing it up and not just keeping it up here and like feeling something about it or like working

myself up to like the right moment and just being like okay if you don't have that combo now if you don't fix that thing now then it's not going to be a good feeling later so yeah sidebar but yeah this album has been a large maturity leap for me and it is partly due to my partner and partly due to someone having that much patience and that much just grace, like you said, and that much understanding who can see, like, the best parts see you and say, like, even though we've had to go through these ugly parts, like, I really think I know who you are, and I just want you to show me so that we can have as much fun as we can possibly have. I also would say on your other records, you were sharpening, you got in the game and you started playing.

They were all work. Like, you were making, obviously making art, but like you get sharper and you get better. And what was a challenge for you then is not a challenge for you now. What was a mystery to you then is not a mystery to you now. So if we don't recognize that like we aren't in the same places when we started and that it's easier for us in some regard. So of course I'm going to dedicate myself more to my family because it's not as hard for me to come and make a record.

I'm not as, there's not as much in question. I know how I do it better and I know me better than any of you. So if I come in and work for an hour a day, I'm going to get the best hour or two. You know, I learn how to accept the idiosyncratic nature of what it means to be me. And I go, you know, I work two hours on music. If I'm making a record, I work two hours a day. I come in and I kill it for two hours.

Then I'm done. If some days we go longer, maybe, probably not. Some days I get it done in an hour. I'm like, that's it. Gas tanks empty now. That's the best I had today. some people are like, I need to work for 12 hours and bang my head against a while. I'm like, if that's what it takes for you, I don't understand it.

But I'm not there anymore. Right. So it's different for everyone, but like no one knows better than you because you're the one who has to mine it out. And I find that the family and the per just me, my real, my real lived life. That's what I'll say. The lived experience is being a. a family and doing things other than make art. If I'm only making art all the time or only performing all the time.

So like what I'm supposed to walk around all day and be the lead singer of a band? Yeah. That's not a true. It's nowhere to like pull experience from. Exactly. And I think that I hear that in this record. I hear like a refined experienced, uh, artist who knows himself. Yeah.

Which is pretty cool to see someone. get there because some people get stuck in purgatory almost like they never get all the way yeah they become an artist everyone's like you know you have that first hit or that first moment and everyone else decides what you are and then some artists get caught in that yeah and they start living that and being that instead of well no they were just a kid making art reaching for greatness and what does that mean well that means go forward and try and and when you stop doing that and you get caught up in like maintaining this idea that other people decided you get off for sure you know and i think that what i see with you is someone who's going like towards their own

idea of whatever this thing is yeah i think even before i knew that that was the path i was on i just kind of felt the science when the first album dropped and everything was in black and white and i had the hair covering my face and folks were saying the music is this or it's toxic or it's They were labeling it, like, all these things. And I'm like, I'm really just trying to figure it out. And I'm not, like, assimilate into, like, being a specific type of person. And there's purpose in the story. But before you guys get an idea of who I am, I'm just chopped the hair.

And that was the first thing. I was just as soon as I took off and, like, had that first little run, chopped the hair. And everybody's like, oh, why would you cut the hair? That's your whole. That's your look. Yeah, that's your whole thing. I'm just like, I had the hair when it was dusty and nobody cared at all.

So it was just like, you know. And also, I've always. Throughout my life, I always kind of cycled having hair, growing it out, and chopping it. But this time was just more of the permanent chops where I was just like, it don't. That's just not where I'm at right now. Like the next time that I feel like I'm going to have hair and it's going to hold all my memories and energy in it, like, I need to be somewhere on a beach living like beneath my means. Yes. And like, then it'll feel like more natural to where I'm at.

But I was just hiding behind it for a minute. and I didn't really realize it until I started to see like a lot of concert videos and I'll just be like hmm looking at the ground I'm not making eye contact I'm like it's all these like things that are just compressed happening on stage yeah and the second I chopped it was the second that life just immediately got brighter and better and I and my eye contact and stage presence and crowd participation it was just like out of here and that just came from like you said just understanding that folks had an idea of me and then being like let me just flip it. the script real quick because no that that's not me yeah it's so interesting because when i hear you

talk about it it's so abstract to me because i don't relate to you in that way and maybe it's because i came later and i went in and looked so so i don't have a attachment yeah and that's interesting because like when we get out of our immediate daily messaging so like again like i always like check that too like where am I getting my messaging from and then I realized like the best thing I could do was learn how this works and how this works and then I just started looking at that and realizing like and working and not only therapy therapy's been amazing and then also just like there's a lot of therapy I say therapy in a broad way like I have a therapist he's amazing I found a guy who's more like a coach, but also is a therapist.

Then I start reading books. Then I start just seeking out anyone that has things figured out that feels like not on some like guru shit. I don't want someone who makes me feel like I need to come to them every time I need the answer. I want someone who will teach me. Yeah, like just mentors. Yeah. Just very cool, casual mentors. Yeah.

And it took me a minute to get there too to where I'm like, I'm in my 30s. And I just started to look around like, I've never. really had a mentor. Like I never had nobody who I looked at and was like, he knows more than I know in this area and he's cool and we can talk and I can learn and it can be no pressure. It's just like pull up on me. I'm doing this this week and you can just, you know, chip. And it took me a minute to to finally realize that was something that I needed that was missing. And once that clicked, I was just like, oh yeah, I get it now. Like I can go to my my guy Alex. He makes clothes. He's out here and he has his own brand. But I pulled up once to shop with him and just when I saw.

how his whole setup was and just how his brain was working. I was just like, oh, I finally get to sit back and like just, you know, not be the focal point and just watch somebody else work and hear whatever gems he has and also just like have a new friend. And like it was, it's just, it's better than money for me to be able to look up and know, like now I have the right folks around me who, you know, everyone isn't looking to me for advice or everyone isn't looking to me for an answer or for inspiration. Like I can go somewhere and I can get that same thing from somebody else.

I was like I needed that. Those are the excellent people. The mid, there's a lot of mid. Like most is mid. Yep. Like a majority is mid. And so it's like mid. It's not inspired at all.

And so that's different. There's a lot of ego in mid. So a guy who is really good at this and you go to him and he is more ego. Yeah. Then actually like, hey man, it's the teaching man to fish, right? It's like, yeah, man, you're really good. good at that and he goes hey let me show you how I did it and then you're like watching and then well I wouldn't show you how I did it if I didn't see you right and think oh this guy one it's

exciting that you're interested in what I'm doing too I wouldn't talk to you if I didn't respect you like you trust you because most the genuine people move like that I can't explain it but it's like you just find your your people but I think that teachers mentors it's generosity Yeah. So it's someone who gives information freely to people they feel wanted. Yeah. They don't waste their words. But you know when someone's interested.

You know when someone would. And so to me, like same. I had some mentors who started showing me and giving me real information. That was truth. In fact. So, and then I started learning, you know, again, the cause and effect of life, the causality. of life, the causality of the world. It's pretty simple. Effort over time equals results. Measure the results. Refine the process. Go back to effort over time. And it's a cycle and you cycle

up and you learn how process works. And then you do that process over time and it compounds. And then there's residuals. Once you build one wall, you don't need to build it again. And then you build another one. And before you know it, you have a house. Then you don't need to build that house again. and you start building another house. Over time when investment is consistent and growing, it builds. And then you turn around and 10 years goes by really fast. And 15 years, then 20 years. And then people go, how did you do that?

And you're like over a long period of time. Because every person also has their own processes. So if we learn how to be like process driven like that, it does actually streamline and make things simple. I agree. Absolutely agree. Back to the music, I think that what I see is just someone who's on a journey of, it's cool to watch someone succeed and grow, you know, in kind of a world of, I don't know,

it doesn't feel like every artist gets the opportunity to do that. Yeah. Yeah, it's not just about the music. Yeah, they're chained to the brand or the song or the thing. It like becomes really hard to get past and it's cool when you're not. Not at all, but I do, it's been nice to understand like the, the duality and the balance of just like who I am as an artist, because I've told folks that I work with too. I'm just like, you know, sometimes I'm unplugged and I'm with the family and there's nothing that you could do or say that's going to like change what my focus is. And then there might be a moment where I'm like, maybe I do want to like go in and like with the intention to make the coolest song I could

ever make for, you know, to go on the most fun tour that I could ever go on. Like, that kind of comes and goes, but yeah, at the base of it is just somebody who has finally made it to the point where I know what is the most important to me. And I know that what's the most important to me also just kind of connects back to what I do and what I love. Like, it'll pay off in music, you know, as long as I continue to take care of the crib. What's the balance of how you work with other people versus how you work on your own stuff? I love my stuff more, but I like that. But I love the opportunity to go into someone else's world and learn something and bring it back to my world. So I think that's why I've done.

It's like visiting their house. Yeah, it's like I got that's why I've done so many collapse. Like I kid you not, in the last 10 years, it's been over 100 plus collapse. And I've been able to go into pop spaces. I've been able to go on the rap spaces, R&B spaces, alternative spaces, just and just learn something and bring it back. So when I either go to my live show or I go to my studio, it's just like I got something over here that I'm with. of God if I just stayed in this bubble. So I like to venture out into people's universe and just come back with like a new trick. So it's always fun. Like I love collabing. There's nothing.

You have a favorite of space or genre or style of music that you like to go visit outside of your own? Weirdly enough, I want to say, and I know pop is just kind of like subjective and it changes just depending on like just what people are consuming. Yeah. But, you know, when you think of pop sometimes, like I like the challenge that it puts me in sometimes because it's normally, you know, brighter textures or just different things to where it's almost opposite of what people perceive me as. So it makes me like sit back or scratch my head or like think a little bit harder.

Yeah, yeah, it's challenging. Yeah, so I appreciate it because it challenges me. And I think that has been what like excites me a little bit more these days. It's like if I can get in a position to where something is like truly pushing me out of my comfort zone, then it's actually a little bit more exciting these days. So yeah, yeah, I would say pop spaces have been fun to figure out. And then aside from that, I think it might just kind of be over the hill as far as like what I might do next. I feel like my music has kind of slid to like a space to where it's not always R&B or not always rap. And people just have a more general idea of like, okay, he can kind of do any.

anything. So with that, yeah, I'm curious to know like where it might go next and what spaces I might dip into. What's the DNA of your songwriting? Because what I hear is a little more, not to say that there's less songwriting in modern rap music. I'm not saying that because I don't think that's true. But there is a bit more of like a song structure and a songwriter's, almost like if you got an acoustic guitar and you played your song. So that's where the genreless, what you're talking about to me when I hear that, I agree with you. I wouldn't put it in a genre.

Because I think there's some songwriter sensibility that is like a bit more classical. In the sense of like if you took a guitar or a piano and you played the song, it would be that classic song structure. And, you know, when I think of the catalog of American music when you think of like the great songs,

like there's a lot of, there's a through line with, the songwriting and I think that like it's classic. Yeah. And so I think that like I wonder like that had to come from some classic music in my mind. Yeah, I mean I was kind of a student of everything. Somewhere after my first album, I definitely made it a point because before my first album, everything was kind of digital. So I was meeting producers online. They were sending beats and it was like somewhat easy to put that project together. But after that, I just started to communicate to the folks are on me. I'm just like, I feel like I write my best songs when we start with guitar or when we

just start on piano. So even if it doesn't end there, I want to start there. And that came from, I mean, that came from Prince. It came from Johnny Mitchell. It came from like, whatever I could find to where I was just like, take everything else away and what they're saying and how they sound. Like, if it's cutting through without drums, without snares, without distractions or atmospheric, like pads and senses, like, if it can cut through without that, then you, you you have a really great song. So we try, and especially with this newest project, to start with keys or start with guitar and feel the song out first. And that way we know, like, we're talking about something. It feels like something. And now if we want to, like, throw some sauce on it,

then cool. But at least we know there's a song under there. And it's not somebody just hiding behind, you know, some 808s and tricking people. Yeah, it's like, if you could get a good song where you could even just sing in a cappello, all the rest is icing. Yeah. It's all fun. Yeah. And then every now and then you discover a musical hook

that just makes the whole thing, but like it needs a song. I know that what's next for me. I've been feeling like, not like a creative block or anything, but there's like a barrier that I feel like I'm like pushing up against right now to where I'm like,

I know that this, this resistance that I'm feeling right now is because I need to truly lock in on guitar. Like I can't wait for someone else to make me something or you know always be in the mood to talk someone through a feeling when it's as easy as just knowing your way around the guitar so i started uh my last album with lessons and i took it on tour i like played it for at the beginning of my closing song and i was just kind of preface to the crowd i'm like i'm shit i don't know like what i'm doing i'm still figuring it out

in front of you guys so bear with me and some nights it was amazing some nights that wrong note was just echo through the venue and I would just be like, hey. Yeah, who cares. But it was nice to suck at something in front of folks. Like, it was like, I've been running away from this feeling for a minute because it was, again, I just had the folks around me that could make the perfect thing that I was, like, trying to figure out. Yeah.

But now I know, like, that I'm getting further away from that feeling to where someone can always do that for me. It's like, I know it has to start with me. And yeah, like, I need to make that my business. I need to go home. and pick one of those five or six guitars up and just commit a little bit deeper so that whatever I do next

can just continue to have that type of growth behind it. Yeah, I would start with, I would just keep learning songs you love. Yeah. Like if there's a song you love that you wish you wrote, that's a guitar based song, learn how to play that one. And then one song at a time, you start learning how to get through a song. And then it becomes more natural when you go back to writing on your, like,

you start getting through your own songs. But I'm not good at guitar, but I play it. And probably better than the average person, but like, no, but I'm in a world full of guitar players that are like elite. Yeah. Do you have a favorite artist that you've worked with? Favorite artist. As a fan or and slash or as a friend.

Favorite artist that I've worked with. Either that you just are a fan of or that, like, or someone that you just became friends with. I would have to give it to J.I.D., my brother from Atlanta, we came up around the same time in Atlanta when there was a lot of other stuff happening on the music scene, and we kind of felt like the stepchildren of what was going on. We were just like, we don't do that, but we do something. And working with him, I think, was, it was just fun for me because I was naturally just more to myself in reserve, and he was just more like, yeah, put a hook right there. I'm about to go to work right now, and he would come back. I would have like three, four, five demos just kind of lined up for him to do something.

And our dynamic was just like two of the same type of people, but he was just a little more energetic than I was. And I needed that to just bring a little bit more out of me. So I like working with him because it's the most conversational session that I'll ever have with anybody. Like we get each other, we trust each other, we talk, we laugh, and we saw each other from what it was to what it is right now. So I think JID would have to be my favorite, even though we haven't gotten anything done recently. but I'm trying to think

I've been in a studio with Young Thug that is one of the most interesting sessions that you could ever be in for sure setting is crazy it's a bunch of folks around it's a lot going on a lot of smoking a lot of just things are happening so you would naturally walk in

and think how am I going to make something in this environment especially if that's not how you normally make things right but it was another moment where I was like this is a test for me like what can you really do like when when you're on the clock and you know we want to make something cool and people are also kind of expecting you to do you. So, but seeing him work was interesting for me because it obviously

will start with like a bunch of mumbles and, you know, door opening and closing while he's recording and you're trying to make out the words and he's like, he's barely saying anything when he wants to recut. It's like, again, again, stop, stop. And it's just like, you're trying to piece it together. Right. And then after maybe like 30 minutes, they takes his headphones off and presses play and there's a whole song with a whole verse and a whole hook. And it's just like, did that, really just happened in front of me. And I think there's a lot of folks who I think have that gift. I feel like I heard about Wayne having that gift like super early and when he was just

just smoking everything. And yeah, there's just, I heard about Jay-Z having, just people who have a specific way that they do things to where you're just like, you make it look so easy and you make it look so effortless. But when I hear the end result, you would think that, you know, somebody worked hours on this beat or worked hours on this verse or thought so hard on his melody when it's really just kind of falling out of you just easily and yeah he has very interesting sessions because in 30 minutes you can you can get a lot in 30 minutes it's the genius part it's it's one part gifted genius talent type what you could say yeah one part experience and one part uh self he he knows what he needs to do to get what he wants to get yeah and you

watch it in real time and it looks confusing or it looks like um because it's a it's not a finished product. Yeah. But what he's doing is putting the pieces together in the places and moving them around. It's like watching someone sculpt. And then suddenly after, you know, however much time, the sculpture starts to come to life. And the lines are making sense. And that to me is like the nature of an artist who trusts their process and is no longer

asking anyone. Yeah, no insecurities, no like. It's just, yeah, and I felt like that was a good thing for me to kind of take back into my own world, because sometimes I can overthink. Sometimes, you know, I spend too much on a moment or trying to figure something out when really, like, to see someone just tapped into a feeling to where they know, you know, even if I don't finish this song and like these are the specific lyrics or this isn't the word that I use when I go back and edit it. Like, the feeling is there and I believe in the feeling and I believe in the melody and I believe in like the confidence that I have in. executing right now to where it's just going to sound good. I feel like he's one of those artists. And it's a few other folks I met too where I'm just like, you could say any word, like, maybe words that I would never even like having a song. Like you could say any word and it just,

it sounds different coming from you. I have words that I stay away from. Like I don't, I won't say that. Can't say that. That doesn't sound cool. But other folks are just like your word vocabulary. It's just, it's colorful. It's super colorful. I, I commend that because. Yeah, sometimes I have certain things and right into where I'm just like that. That's interesting to hear you say that because I don't, I wouldn't think that about you. But I think what you describe about Young Thug,

I've never met him. I'm a fan of his, but I've never met him. But he's celebrated in our house. My son loves Young Thug, and we listen to his music all the time. Whether it's effortless or not, he's himself. Yeah, yeah.

And so he's not in question. Yep, exactly. So there's no room for anyone to question who I am. because I'm being myself and there's something that is really inspiring when you see someone who's achieved that

whether it was through work or not whether he's naturally whether he's had to be whatever it is. It's excellence and that's like an amazing thing to see when someone's really just themselves. Yeah absolutely. That would be fun to I've always wanted to like

talk to young thug. He's a funny guy. Yeah I'm sure I have a lot of questions. I like him a lot. But I like you a lot too. Thank you. Congrats on the record. Thank you.

I know if there's anything else you want to promote, if there's a tour. Yeah, we do tour in the fall. Tours, like, to me, it's neck and neck with creating music. You love it? Yeah, like,

I really enjoy it. We try and space it out to where physically is not too taxing. I love to see how the music, like, affects people because it is so personal. And even though it can be like a large emotional exchange.

You know, when you hear the stories and you're talking to folks, I really do love to know, like, somebody might have came to my show in the beginning when they were by themselves, and then they come to the next one, and they got a partner, and the next one they got kids. And I'm just like, to see people grow with me has been the craziest thing ever

because I don't think that a lot of artists get to truly have that type of dynamic with the people who consume their music. It's just always this barrier or this separation, but my music is almost like a journal of my music. my life. So a lot of folks can be like we were going through the same thing or I wasn't there but I went back to that album and now I get it and like those personal stories make tour just so much more fun. So tours starts in the fall. We start in Europe and then we come back to the U.S. the last week of October and yeah, we're going to run it as far as we can run it. I'm sure next year we'll do like

Australia and everything. But for now, Europe, UK, North America and yeah, I'm going to, I'm I'm excited for a tour. Congrats, man. I feel like you're open to expressing, like, growth. Absolutely. And I think, like, you have people growing up with you. And so, like, what you just said is, like, people are getting into relationships. They're building families.

And your music has been kind of a soundtrack, weaved in to these different sections of their life. And they could relate to you because you're a different person on this album than you were 10 years ago, five years ago, and so are they. And that's actually like more true to life than just saying the same thing over and over again. Being a product or being a brand. Right. And that's it.

It's like the human brand. I gravitate towards that too. That's why I was excited to talk to you. Thank you. Because I feel there's a person here trying to figure this shit out. And that's the truth of life. Doesn't matter if you're a young thug. If you're you or me or the guy down the street, if you're the guy listening.

to this podcast right now, if you're the guy coming to your show. We're all actually just trying to figure this out every year. And it's comforting when you see someone who's open and they're like, you see growth. You see them evolving. And like, we need those examples. We all need like examples around us of people growing. Yeah. And I think you're a good one. So cool, man. Thanks for coming. Thank you. Appreciate it. you for listening to this episode of artist friendly you can also watch the episodes on spotify spotify premium users get no commercial breaks on my show make sure to follow like and comment because i always read the comments