Benji Madden and M. Shadows (Rerun)
00:00But speaking of the rev, that, I mean, the memories, I still have random memories.And I feel like that was one of the things that I think brought our bands even closer.I think at a young age, having never.Never having to suffer a loss like that.Never having a loss like that.And I think going, you know, watching you guys go through that was, for me, I think it was like a bond.A bond.It's just something that just like really bonds you.
00:28and I was telling my wife a story like maybe like a month agojust random thing popped into my head and I still laugh about it.We agree on a lot from our last conversation two years agoago or it had to be two years ago.Yeah.When did the record come out?Two years ago.So our last conversation was our first conversation.
00:53How long ago was our first conversation?22, 24?23, 23, 24.It's just sad if you think about it.24 years.Yeah.So older than some people.We've been friends on this planet.
01:04Yeah.It's, it's, it's, and we feel like the same guys.And it's just, yeah.It's like you close your eyes and you wake up and 24 years ago.That's also one of the things I appreciate about you especially, all the guys, but I justfeel like you like we've, I mean, obviously all of us have grown, married kids, all of it.But every, it doesn't matter if we haven't talked in nine months, two years, whatever.it's the same.
01:29Yeah.There's room.I appreciate that in life.But I was thinking about that.First of all, I said it on text today with all three of us.I said, it's a miracle that the three of us could get together.You're busy not only being a dad, having a family, running one of the biggest rock bandsin the world, but also building businesses and doing all the things.
01:49We're doing the same things.The three of us getting together and actually being able to take the time, not that we don'tget together or talk, but to actually film it.take some pictures and memorialize it for the world.No one thinks to do that most of the time,but for us to be able to do it is specialand kind of a miracle that we could all make our schedules work and do it.But then what I was thinking about was over the course of our relationship,
02:13a similarity between all of us and our bands as people,aside from having some values as people,like being stand-up guys.I'd say everyone in your band, everyone in our band,like all just decent guys.Yeah.You know?Decent?
02:28No, like good people.You know what I mean.Yeah, yeah, I get it.But the idea that we're stronger together and we pull resources and we try to help each other figure things out is a good idea.But it's very hard to execute on that when you think about bands as different organizations, companies as different organizations, and then people as different organisms.Actually putting that into action takes a lot of goodwill, self-confidence, and under.understanding of the imperfection of it, like the chaos of it is. When I started this podcast,you came in, no questions asked, you sat down in the chair, not knowing what is this thing,
03:07does it have legs? Will it become, you just did it because you could contribute your,you contributed to it. Like you put a brick in the wall, right? You helped carry, you helped push thething. And you've always done that for us as a band. But think about if we zoom out how hard it isto get anyone to see what you're doingand then contribute whatever, right?Whether it's retweeting youor actually coming on and filming.Whatever it is, it's a contribution.
03:37I always take that so seriouslybecause as entrepreneurs,we know how hard it is to get anyone to go like,oh yeah, like tell me about your thing,let me see if I,but finding ways to contribute to each other's worldwith no real understanding,it's not a transaction.
03:53It's not like there's a payoff.The payoff is that we all succeed in life and we continue to all rise and we kind of all risetogether somehow.I believe that.But also individually, your success is my success.Like when you're more successful, I know the guy who's more successful and I can get on thephone with you and ask you, how did you do that or whatever?But like, I just think when I zoom out and I think about our relationship aside from friendship
04:21and history, just knowing each other, you're on a very short list.to people who aren't asking, well, you're not transactional. You're not trying to make a deal,not trying to do that. You just jump in if you can. If you think that's a good, I think I cancontribute. And if you can't, you say it. And there's like a real, I just think our, our relationshipis rare. There's certainly like, I find it's easy. It's easy. And I find that like the list of people inmy life that like see me and believe in me. It's a short list of people. I think also too, I thinkyou're able to have the closest most longstanding easy friendships think about it with peoplethat don't need anything from you yeah yeah so that like you know what i mean like you know like
05:07if you you have friends who you're always having to solve their problems it's like tough it's toughto have a close relationship in some ways we don't rely we don't have to rely i also think the thingthat i will always say that i always feel like why you know um us and our bandsalways have had like this like sort of like longstanding bond that doesn't require maintenanceis I think that our both of our bands have always operated from like a place of abundancein the rock world it's very rare like you always kind of have the vibe in the rock world where likeif you're winning then I'm losing right or if you got that I didn't and I just think the truth of lifeit's not the truth it's not the truth of life ever and that the sort of a
05:54that like, I guess you call it the abundant mindset.Like it's, it's that there's really this world.There's so much, there's an like, if you win, I win, you know.And I think that like for whatever sort of like natural instinctual reason,all of us just sort of like saw the world that way, operated that way.So there was never anything where it's like if you said no to something or I said no to something,it's never feel ever been feelings hurt because it's like all of us are just moving.And all of us actually, it's that thing of like,
06:24being able to have friends who don't need anything from you.Everyone knows.You know, all of us have families.All of us have shit going on.And everyone respects that.So it's kind of like when this is nice, when it does line up and we can do stuff.I think that it's always a pleasure because of that mindset and because of that,I think that natural just like, I think disposition.
06:48Yeah.I also think that, you know, from day one and then everything from, you know, the way you guyssee the world and try to solve problems, right? That's what you guys did early on. And it was outsideof Good Charlotte. You use that as a place to get somewhere and then you can start solving problemsthat are, you know, with VEPS and all these cool things you guys have done. It doesn't matter if I'm doingone thing and you're doing something else. It's the same mindset. Yeah. Of like stirring up the pot a little bit,you know, not being afraid. Not being afraid and also knowing that everything's not going to work.and we don't judge each other on successes or failures.
07:23It's just that at least we're out there trying to mix it upand make the world better for artists, right?It comes from a genuine spot.Always.And you need people that get into a place of poweror a place where they can kind of move thingsbecause of the weight of whatever their projects are,whether it's good Charlotte or revenge sevenfold,
07:42and you can move people into a direction that is healthier,whether it's through streaming, you know,the VEEP stuff and the video stuff,whether it's through bitflips and blocked it.And these are things that we've all dabbled in with each otherand talk to each other.But you guys go hard in one way.I go hard in another way.
07:59And then at some point,we just have a lot of respect for each other's,you know, obviously musicality and the music.Yeah, and you're right, it's easy.You want relationships that are easy.And you're, you know, and when you were talking about,I think the biggest thing is that you know you don't need to callsomebody that's not me.
08:18an assistant or a manager and try to get things done, just call Matt.Right.And I don't need to let anybody in my life know what I'm doing.I'm just going to do what I'm going to do.I'll let you know later if you need to know about it, right?Like I will probably let management know at some point that I did this and shot something so they should look for it.We always say, oh, yeah, by the way, revolver cover coming out.But also that this is the thing is the three of us are very similar.
08:44We're unmanageable.Yeah.You can't manage us.I know.But we need teams.We need teams.We got to build teams.So we find the teams that can tolerate who don't have ego, who don't need to be the man.
08:57Those are the managers that get on my nerves, the gatekeepers that need to be the man.Guys who could sit at the table with us and talk things out are the guys we need to work with.Well, and that's the thing that I think like we've all had the spirit of because naturally by trying to make things better for artists, that's just weirdly.It sounds really weird, but that's disruptive.Right.Totally.Like it's so, it's weird that that's a disruptive.Like that's disruptive.
09:24And naturally like all of us like, you know, like maybe, you know, we leaned a little more punk or a little more pop punk.You leaned a little more metal.But all of us like we're just like disruptive.It all came from punk.And we're all warped her together.I mean, that's that our ethos.When we went over to Ozfest, there was the main stage and there was a side stage.We played warped for four years before that.
09:44And we were getting hazed.and we had friends everywhere and everyone was cool and everyone was equal and it was a different thingand so we went over to ozfest it was we had the ethos were already firmly in place from you knowour forefathers of punk rock right which at the time were poser punks it was yeah yeah the no effectsis the bad religions it was well this isn't exploited and this isn't you know the damned or whateverbut for us that was what we grew up on and and we were learning from those guys and everything wasequal like everyone ate the same junk you know and not no offense Kevin lineman but you knowwhatever the catering was and everyone was getting paid very little.
10:18Yeah.But it was a punk rock summer camp, right?And it was like,then you go to something bigger and there's like a hierarchy.And that was weird to us.So we've always just kept the punk,the hardcore punk sort of,you know,
10:32vibe because that's like where we feel more comfortable.That's where we grew up, you know.That was such a fun place to meet.Yeah, for sure.You know?Because we were both kind of outcast.First time we ever spoke.Yeah.
10:43Actually, we were the pop guys.And we were the guys that were screaming.We wanted to be, you know, I just looked around and I was like, I want to be huge.Yeah.Yeah.Been to buy mama house.But you guys were a different thing on there, right?It was like there was a different type of success.
10:58When you guys showed up, it was like, you could see just, there's jealousy.There's animosity.And we were like, we were already on the outcast.We weren't even like taken seriously at that point.You got to think, Kevin Lyman's throwing us on as a favor of Lewis Posen at Hopeless Records.and we're screaming.And it was the first band that had been on thatthat was just playing metalcore, right?
11:20And it was just like it does not compute.This is why people hated on you.And if they still do,I don't even know if they do or they don't.I'm sure we all have our version of peoplewho are like, whatever.But what you guys always had was self-confidence.Yeah.
11:34You got on stage and you did your thingand you weren't trying to be like anyone else.And you actually weren't trying to get anyone to accept you.Yeah.That's the difference.When you don't beg every,to like you. It's a longer road, but in the end, people get to know who you really are,and then they accept you or they like you. Most of the time they like you, because originality
11:53is hard to find. But I find people that are begging everyone to like them, short term it mightpay off. Long term, it's a waste of. Well, winners are going to win and losers are going to lose.Yeah. You know, like, and that just goes back to the. That's the quote of the, like, but,winners are going to win and lose. Let's wrap it up. But, yeah. But, but, but, but hear me out,because it's not a dig on anybody.When you have, like back to that abundant mindset,when you have an abundant mindset,a winning mindset,
12:20you're not worried about what everyone else is getting.You're happy for them.You're building your own shit.You're building your own shit.you're going to win some way, shape, or form.If you're looking around of what everyone else has got, and you're, and you're mad at them, or you're jealous, or you're throwing rocks or you're hating on them, you're going to lose.I don't want to stay playing clubs forever.You know, the same, you know, people, they might appreciate that.
12:46That's great.But I think, like, we have, like, growth mindsets.It's not even about, it's not even about, like, the, like, whatever, like, indicator peoplego by where it's, like, how much money you're making.It's like, it's not even about any of that.It's a feeling of, like, oh, we're, like, all of us right here in our 40s are doingnot the same thing we were doing when we were 21.We're doing the version of it now.
13:08And I just think that, like I said, for any.band out there or any artists out there because you always, you know, a lot of, this whole thingyou set up was because we have these conversations off the camera with artists when they comethrough is winners are going to win, losers are going to lose. Be a winner. Don't look aroundof what everyone else has got. Don't judge what everyone else doing. Like do your shit. And I think that'ssomething that naturally, I think both of us sort of, again, that's why we could be friends andwhy we could so easily, different worlds, different group in different places, could so easilysupport one another. But also, you know when you, you know, that thing, like that feeling, you know,
13:48it's hard to put into words, but you know when someone fucks with you and when they don't.Yeah. You know, like when you know, when someone fucks with you and when someone doesn't fuckwith you. Yeah. Like, I just know it. I feel it. It's like a vibration. You have always fuckedwith us. Before we even, before we even were near each other's stages,I remember I talked to you on the phone.I was on, I was getting tattooed by Adam Barton.Oh.Remember?
14:13Back in the day, that's crazy.In 2000, probably.Yeah, that's crazy.And he was like my friend, Matt is the singer of a Venn 7thold.And I was like, oh, I like a Venn 7thold.It was like your first record or something.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.After your first record.
14:27Yeah, Adam did the art for it.And Adam did the art for it.And he was like, you guys should talk.You'd like each other or whatever.And he put you on, we got on the phone or something.Yeah.Because I was hanging out with them all.all the time he tattooed he did both my arms yeah and um adam's funny he's crazy but hardcore guy
14:44was in a band himself uh what was the name of the band he was in like he he was temper i don't know if hewas in it all the time anyways you got on the phone with me and you were nice and i just knew it there wasno guard up there was no too cool there was no whatever yeah and it was just like i was at a timewhere we were like trying to make our way we were touring i think we were like touring with mxpx at the timeor something. And like, I was already encountering the reality of life versus what I thoughtwhen we were back in Southern Maryland trying to make it. Yeah. And I thought everyone's,everyone's going to love me. Everyone's going to celebrate when I make it. And we got a wreck of a deal.And then we were on tour and we were encountering like it was a cold water in the face
15:26for like the first two years of being in the world in band world. And so we were on the phoneand you were, you were, you were cool as shit. You were nice.And I knew I liked you.And then we got to meet each other for real and all that.But like, I knew you fucked with us.That's it.Like I just, and I, I definitely met people that were nice,but I knew they didn't fuck with me.
15:49Yeah, yeah.It's hard to explain.I can't explain it, but you just know when you find your people.Yeah, yeah.I'm definitely drawn to things that are like unique and stand out, right?And good Charlotte stood out.Not only for the music, and I always go back to the music is really important, right?It's like you can tell these are good songs.
16:05this means something right and then there's like the whole thing on top of it that just feels looks andjust it's different yeah right and even as i'm older i i'm just drawn to things that are originalthat sit outside the sort of box of what west lang west lang well that jacket's sick yeah it's sicklike the west lang stuff is sick so this is like an amiri west lang collab and west i met from you guysi met from west from you yeah yeah um but the thing is is that originality meets originality whereit's at and Wes wouldn't just do someone no oh my god no no no so west like west was a hard yeah he's a he'sartist but it makes it so much better right so much better you know how many how many years did you talk towest where you guys every year that i met him like so like seven eight years and by the way and it was
16:54always no because it's either the grateful dead or nobody right and he did the grateful dead and that was itLike, and even that was short.Like he did the special whatever.Y'all are the new Grateful Dead.Yeah, exactly.That's what I'm saying is, it sounds crazy.But Avenge Sevenfold, when you think about cultures and cultures that seep out becauseyou could say metal or rock and roll, but at the end of the day, it's a live music culture.
17:21Yeah.I can't even say those words anymore.I just don't even know what to describe.What are you?When I say metal, I feel like I'm cheapening us.And not to cheapen that genre.John is amazing.Yeah.
17:30But I just, I just think it's, we just do something a little different now.You can't box it.No, you can't box it.So to me, it's like the fact that you guys collaborate with West Lang says everything aboutwhere the band sits in the kind of timeless music culture of music and not putting it in a box.Yes, there's some metal.There's rock and roll.There's also a little bit of country.
17:56There's a little bit of everything in there because it's just music.Yeah.Someone like Wes, I didn't look at it as like it was going to help us in any way other than I love his art so much that I wanted to introduce our fans to that. And I wanted to be represented. Like when I first saw his stuff, I said, I would do anything to have one Avenge Sevenfold shirt with a piece of West Lange's art. Right. And now we've got a full album cycle and the guy is the best. We love West. Yeah. But I love that he has this. He loves it too, by the way. I think he does. Yeah, he does. He loves music.I know he loves music. His ability to hold a high standard for himself for his whole careeris what made it so attractive to me, right? To like want, and that's what I like. I like whenthings are outside the box. They're unique and they play by their own rules. I think you guyshave done that. I think there's a very few handful of bands that do it. And you're right. There's abunch of artists that are playing Chase the Ambulance, right? What worked before? What worked before
18:54and great band name. And all you do isthe local trend or the current trendyou're always a year behindyeah um so i don't know i i justi'm just drawn to it and i think thatyou know as we've gotten older i don't even know like what you were talking about withit's funny because we wanted to be the biggest bands in the world but we wentthe exact opposite way about it right you would think the how do you become
19:20one of the biggest bands in the world oh you do the things that all these otherbands did and for some reason our bands did the opposite which is how you kind ofget around to that point, right?Which is, I don't know what was, it's just something insidey.Maybe it's like that punk rock rebellion of like, I'm not doing that because everyone else didthat.I don't know what it was.I can't even get inside my old brain and what I used to think.
19:43But I do know one thing of Ensenwald always did is we did the unexpected.And we were completely unapologetic about it.And I'm so grateful now being 43 years old that every one of our records are like this littletime capsule of doing something that was not popular at the time.but they all came around at some point and were able to be respected because they're justunique to that time period.And I think as you get older, you just have to keep pushing even harder because it's soeasy to kind of fall back on eight records and go, oh, well, like Ryan Downey told us this,
20:16you guys have every opportunity to be boring and you've rejected it.And I think, you know, rewriting something or treading those old, you know, roads that we've kind of builtjust isn't exciting.Yeah.We just want to be excited.Like I want to go do thingsthat just make people scratch their headand they go, maybe I'll get it in five years,
20:34maybe not,but the band was having fun.Like they want to be here.We all know touring,doing the records,that can either be awfulor it can be the greatest thing,the greatest life experience.
20:47It just depends on your mindsetand how you set it up for youand how you want it to be.Tour the way you want to tour,tour when you want a tour,make the songs you want to make,record them the way you want to do it.Be where you want to be.
20:58Be where you want to be.That way whenever you're there, you really, not only do you enjoy it, but everyoneelse there can feel it if you want to be there or not.Yes.And there's a vibration that happens when someone doesn't want to be there.Right.When someone doesn't fuck with you.Yes.
21:13There's that vibration as a singer when you're having a bad night and all I do, I want to dois get the hell out of there.This is not working.Yeah.Then there's the nights where it's on fire.Yeah.And I know that there's no way I can fake the bad nights and be a good night.A better pro probably could.
21:28I'm like, you can read it on my face.I am so bummed that this isn't working out, right?And then when the good nights are good, it's like, I am the king of the world.This is amazing.And everyone, you can just feel it coming from everyone.And I think, you know, with records, with everything in life, you have to be the same way.I mean, we have one shot at this thing, right?And just you got to try to be happy and be creative and I think through the years.
21:49I think it's interesting too.It's like where we've come to at this point.And why would, you know, the editor of.revolver call us and ask us if we all want to do a cover. It's interesting because if you looked back,I don't know, 25 years ago, it would never happen. But we've, all three of us sort of with the samementality and just not really giving to fuck about anything other than just forward progress in life,period. I think that even goes through to like our like just journey as like men and wantingto be like good dads and wanting to be, you know, uh, that mentality is the same.
22:26same in our music. We've met, I think, at a very interesting point now. Like with, you know,and now when you think about music, like there really isn't, the genres are not as, it's,it's all, they're not defined, you know, and I think that like that's something that I justlove to see, love to see happening. And I think that, you know, sitting down today, it reallysort of like captures that like, if you look back 25 years to now, I like to think that allof us of that mentality, we're a part of helping evolve that. And, and,and also helping for the bands that are getting started right now.Well, also, I was just thinking about it.
23:04I don't know why in my head I had a picture of a table of guys who could sit hereand all contribute to this conversation.And if you guys came to mind and I was wondering if you guys had any other people thatcome to mind.But in my mind, there's guys that come to mine.Sam from architects could sit at this table and have these conversations.Noah could sit.Noah from Bad Omen's could sit.
23:26at this table and have these conversations.There's a lot.But I like giving credit out there to other guys and bands that I see being themselves and doinginteresting shit on their own terms at their own pace.I think Poppy sits at this table.Yep.Easily.I think we're very lucky to be surrounded by people who are a lot like us, like that they see
23:48the like, you have to make your own way.The sooner you make peace with that in these creative endeavors we do, bands, business.businesses, right? Like with Bitflips, you didn't ask anyone's permission. You didn't go around andtry to get someone to believe in you first. You just started fucking doing it. And then you werefinding people that understood it and bringing them on and like building this team. It's veryhard. It's chaotic. And it's also, there's so many waves. We were talking about, we were textingthis yesterday or the day before. There's so many waves of the way that things change. And I want toget to Bitflips, what I'm interested to hear if you think, like, who are the other personalities
24:29and figures that you think have the same conversations or kind of live in the same way?You admire, respect. You say West Lang, you say people like, it doesn't have to be musicians,but I think out there, there's a lot of musicians. I think Post Malone's one of those people.Post? Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know any of the people you, I know who they all are. I don't knowthem personally. There's certain people we just respect immensely in the industry, right, that arecreatives. This guy Lance Drake that did our VR concert, very smart, creative guy. West has obviouslycomes top of mind. As far as musicians, people I really respect what they're doing. I don't knowJulian Casablancus, but I love the voids. So the voids to me is, I think they're the greatest rock
25:13band in the world, whatever they are. Like, it's just so creative and interesting. It really gets mymind going. I think Bring Me the Horizon's done a good job of being, you know, forefront ofwhatever's happening now and that sort of thing. Pushing the envelope. So I'm sure there's justa ton of people that are just in their own little pockets doing their own thing. I like talking toanybody that's just kind of can see the kind of the whole thing happening from a higher perspective,right? And I always think about looking down on the music industry, what we were just talking aboutin the back room, always being behind, right? And they've really flubbed a lot of things that were veryeasy to see coming in retrospect. And one of them, one of the things we were talking, we were kind of
26:01correlating it to the idea of blockchain and the financial systems. And right now, you're startingto see rumblings of the dollar and you're starting to see, oh, I can move money quicker with stable coins.The blockchain is useful. It's not a total scam. It's all these things that 10 years ago,you could have said and you're getting laughed out of the room, right? Even now there's people thatjust don't believe it until it happens. Technology has done that with the music industry, with streaming.It was not a problem until you were buying stacks of CDs this big and ripping every single thingoff of Limewire and Napster. And all of a sudden they said, oh my God, this is a problem. We didn't getahead of this. And then they had to make, you know, amends with a guy that just went ahead and did it anyways,
26:40which was Daniel Elk in Spotify, right? And all of a sudden, you're playing by his rules.he's the billionaire and the music industry is trying to just be on board, get some equity and say,please, like put us on some playlist. If you're an artist that can kind of see the, you know,from 500 miles above, you're going to have to ask yourself, okay, what can a label do now?What can the industry do? What can they give me and what is it worth? Do you have MTV? Do you haveradio? Do you have drivers? Should I be paying a record label 75 cents to my dollar for everythingyou do. Can you do anything for me? What genre am I in? Have you been able to do anything in thisgenre? Or is it a genre that is more word of mouth? Or is it a TikTok genre that they take it and they
27:21put gasoline on it? You have to really think about these things and have the balls to not go to yourfamily dinner and go, I signed to a big record label. And so your grandfather, your parents areimpressed and go, no, I'm staying independent because X, Y, and Z. Right? I understand it. But there's a,there's the big dick play where you want to go, you think you made it because you signed it. Validation.It's validation.But you have to ask yourself, do these people even know what the fuck they're talking about?They don't.I always tell this story.
27:49I've told it a million times.Dave Farrell, playing him life is but a dream, those guys in Lincoln Park.And he's like, would you care, we were in a restaurant, probably 100 people in there.He's like, how many people in this restaurant would you care about their opinion of your record?And I'm looking at these people, right?And you're like, zero.Zero.Like he's like, and this, you know, he kind of extend that across the world and that's art.
28:11you put it out and there will be people that connect but you can't go on their terms they have to come to youon your terms and so i think i think the biggest thing with musicians is teaching them that yes you may notmake it and maybe you will make it but you'd rather fail on your own terms then fail in a systemwhere they shove your record into a back room and they never comes out or they do some stupidedit or they make some they tell you to make some stupid music video and you don't back it and alla sudden you're in a situation where you failed because of these people's ideasthat have nothing invested in you other than can we call our shareholders at the end of,you know, the quarter. And did we make money or not? But also winning, if you win that way,
28:51too, right? You feel like a fraud. It doesn't mean that there aren't people that will contributegood ideas that you'll back. That's different. If you go and put on a birthday clown costume and you goand have a hit song and then you got to wear that birthday clown costume. No offense to the birthday clownsNo offense to the birthday clown circuit.By the way, the guy with the birthday clown idea doesn't have to wear the birthdayHe doesn't have to wear it or the clown outfit, yeah.And all of our dumb costumes, we always came up with ourselves.That's why they were so fucking cheap.
29:21There you go.I just want to live video.We threw that together the night before.Remember?That was fucking crazy.By the way, crazy outfits are in the spirit of rock and roll.I mean, I remember when we were just trying to outdo ourselves on stage.Like, I bet you won't wear that.
29:33I bet you won't wear it.And that's fun, right?That's not a label telling you like, hey guys.Here's the storyboard.Yeah, it's the motivation behind it.You know, I think it's just the thing that people connect to as if you're being authentic or not.Right.If we looked stupid 20 years ago, it was on our turn.
29:51That was my decision.That was my decision.That's funny.You know, Sparrow yesterday, we were riding in the car and he goes out of nowhere.He said, you know that if you Google Liberty Spikes, Uncle Benj is like half the page.That's awesome.And I was like, he's like, he's like.where did he come up with that and i was like he just like punk music like liberty spikes is
30:11is an old thing it's as old as as punk and um and he's like really and i was like he's not likeversed in punk yeah yeah and he's like really and i was like yeah he just like he's a fan of punkand he's listening to punk and he did the liberty spikes and they just so happened that they got apicture of them yeah and he had liberty spikes or like 50 pictures yeah for well for like you hadliberty spikes for like a year of your life or whatever yeah and um using knox gelton oh god i was using uhOkay, I would use Knox gelatin. It was like a rock. I had Liberty Spikes for a while and my I remember going downtown with my parents and they hatedThe look right. It'd be it looks loud and like have acne and Liberty spikes and we get in an elevator with this couple and this guy's like cool hairRight and I thought he really thought my hair was cool and I was like see dad and he's like he was making fun of you
30:59Yeah, but um yeah Knox gelatin because that what would happen you put the gelo in your hair and it would make it hard as a rock but then it would give youmore zits and so you know that was oh yeah and you'd have to leave it if you wanted it like on tour especiallyyou would leave it for i was there man i remember a warp tour where i didn't shower for three weeksit's pretty cool and i just and i just no but i did do i did do like outdoor you know i would likefreshen up you know but like i didn't shower but uh but speaking of the rev that i mean the memoriesI still have random memories.And I feel like that was one of the things that I think brought our bands even closer.I think at a young age,
31:43having never having to suffer a loss like that.Never having a loss like that.And I think watching you guys go through that was for me,I think it was like a bond.A bond.It's just something that just like really bonds you.And I was telling my wife a story like maybe like a month ago,just random thing popped into my head and uh i still laugh about it the conversation i was we
32:09me and jimmy were in Vegas and there was some big shot there and he told him me it'sguys talking talking talking it's like uh owned like some like all like half the radio stationsin the country or something i i forget i can't remember someone someone else would have been likeoh i'm sitting next to this guy and uh we ended up there randomly and um he was going on and on andAnd then, and I'm kind of like, you know, more diplomatic, you know, than Jimmy was.So I was like, so I was like, I was just like trying to be nice.And I was like, oh, oh, wow, cool, man, you know, it's going on.That's a lot of radio stations.
32:44Oh, yeah.And then.You must be really rich.The guy talking and Jimmy just looks over and goes, I'm going to kill you.Not today.Not tomorrow.And you know, you had out a few drinks.You had out a few drinks.
33:00You know, so you got that little.He got a little slagger.He was like, not tomorrow, but one day.One day.He's so funny.He's just kind of shaking his head.He was so.One day, I'm going to kill you.
33:16Oh, my God.And the guy didn't know what to say, got walked away.Fuck yeah.Yeah.He saved you guys.And we just laughed.That was, you know, like his way of not dealing with bullshit.Next record didn't do too well at radio, but.
33:30We were banned on half the stations.No, it was, it was funny.Oh, man, just random memories.But having, having history is like, you can't pay for it.No.You can't.No.You were there.
33:47You were there.I remember another, another band that, you know, during that time, like, we got really,and we were really close with Mike M.But they came to my house after Jimmy.And I remember just sitting with all those guys.They stayed with us for like a couple days.You know, just hang.And it's like you really, really realize your friends and the people that he touched
34:07and you hear all these stories, but all these conversations that happened that you neverknew about or these moments.And yeah, it's always, it's hard.It's nice, though, to, and that's what we are, humans that kind of you rally around peopleat your wedding.At your wedding.Yeah.Oh, yeah.
34:24That was great.Yeah.That was great.It was like 7.30 in the morning.And me and Jimmy were the only one.one's in the pool, just like the two of us, just like, what do you want to do now?At least we have video of him at the wedding.And his beard was like, he looked like a full on homeless person.
34:49The rev.Great.The rev.Yeah.Legend.Legend.Had a very low tolerance for bullshit.Yes.
34:56It was just as funny as could be.The cutting look.If he, if he didn't vibe with you, it was great.If somebody was a liar, if somebody was bullshitting, if somebody had, you know, it's just like,like that guy, right?Like he's flexing or whatever.He had a very like direct way of cutting shit off or, you know, it's just like those people that are,it's like a, I don't know, it's like a purity or something.
35:19It's like, get the fuck out of here.Yeah, totally.But there's a very like childlike pureness to it.Yeah, it's pureness.You know, there was a funness to it.Yes.You know?Because he was the best.
35:29And then you have those moments where he's on your side.So you think it's great.Yeah.You know what I always found interesting about you guys?It's like somehow in the world, you're an incredible singer.I love your, like not just your voice, not just the soul of it,but actually the technical stuff you do that like you make look easy.But it's actually like I'll try to imitate it when I'm singing along and I can't.
35:55But then the other guys.The fact that me, Brian and Jimmy grew up in.met when your kids.I know.Like I would put, I would put you guys up, like if we went the categories and just like wentone to one, right?Pound for pound.The pound for pound, one, one player at a time.
36:15Yeah.Like pound for pound.You could put you up against anybody.And you met as kids in school.I know.Like to me, like I think about that sometimes.That's like how that happens.You know, it's like.
36:28That's my favorite thing about Avenge sevenfold.is usually you get a band that has the musicality but not the songs.Or you have the songs but not the musicality.With you guys, you have the songs and the musicality.I would say Brian is probably one of the greatest living guitar players.I'm with him every day.I agree.I don't see any, like I sit there and watch what he does and how he keeps trying to push everything
36:52forward and he's never, like, rested on anything and he's always moving on.Even if people are like...But it's not ego driven either.No, no, no, no.it's like purely like a like a he explores right he like really wants to figure out okay I'm kind of likeI kind of like that tone but I can't get that on a guitar so I'm going to run my guitar through MIDIand then I'm going to have it come back and then like he's just doing stuff because he wants tothat and writing earworms with your guitar lines because all his guitar parts those are two different
37:18things it's two different things to have to have the melody to be able to write melody like thatand perform it the high level that's what I'm saying is like his guitar parts alwaysscratch the itch for me. He always, he, he's kind of allergic to guitar winkery and what you think isgood for him. He doesn't, he doesn't want to be that guy. And so for him, it's always a songfirst. And he's, he's a disciple of the Beatles, you know, and like to him, it's like, we'll neverwrite a song that good. We'll never do that, but let's try. Right. And it's like all about thesong. It's not about, it's more about production techniques and vocal melodies than it isabout him noodling around the song. And so I think having that mentality is just, even with Jimmy,
37:59It was also musical.It was like he was putting the drums as like another instrument instead of what can I do.And I think that keeping that mentality was.It was about the same time.And at the same time, he was a wild animal.So it's not like he.So it's not like he was like this like, you know, studio guy that was like he was a wild animal.You were capturing like when you guys, you know, did those records.
38:26like you were literally capturing like footage of a wild animal.Yeah, like lightning in a bottle.But but he could go toe to toe with any studio guy.Like that's just why that's just crazy to me.You guys grew up that you somehow these kids were just in the same spot.Well, Jimmy was the one that started it all for us because I wasn't a musician.I was a fan of music and going into his room when he was in fifth, sixth grade and he can play all the Slayer records.It just made me sit there and like, oh, this is crazy.
38:55is he's playing with all theseat college going to collegesin their ensembles and thenBrian was obviously wanted to bea studio musician he didn't want anything to dowith writing original music he didn't think he couldbut then he met Jimmy and he's like ohJimmy can like oh I can do that too
39:11and then he started helping and then that becamewhat the band was right it was like all becauseof Jimmy is because hewas so musical and it was sowild it was so abstractand not by the ruleswhich was what was so cool and we can't forgetabout Johnny. We can't forget about Johnny. That's my boy. Johnny is, he used to just come down the
39:30street and bug us every day and play Primus with Jimmy and then eventually he got in the band. Yeah.So I don't know. I think, I think, what a guy's, what a bunch of guys, man. I mean, going back and,like, looking at it all, it's, it's wild and it's, it's fun, but I, and the thing is,is you got to keep that spirit as you get older, just don't do it. Like, I love that, like,maybe you guys can shed more light on this, but you guys went away for a little while. Like,Like what was the why and then what made you want to come back and do a record?Exactly what you're saying.I think unconsciously and more consciously as we got older,
40:04I think we felt like we needed to get back to life.And I think you have,like they always say,you have a lifetime to write your first record.And then every record after that,you're just writing records in like a short period of time.And I think like we went on the ride.We had the experience and it was great as a band.
40:21But then it became very hard to tolerate.everything else. And I think we refuse to submit to anyone's idea of us, anyone's rules, anyone'stelling, if you tell me to do something, I'm going to do the opposite. I think at the point where in like2013, 14, we made the Madden Brothers record, but you know, we even say that that should have been agood Charlotte record, but I think at the time, we got together in high school. Yeah, we got together in high school.where to evolve as people apart and as a group and learn how to be in that marriage together.And it's been an amazing journey together.I fucking love my band.
41:04The four of us since we were teenagers is really special history.You know sitting here talking about your own band, what that means.It's more than the music.It's like that's your history.That's my, when I think of like my past, I think of my band.I think of my, that's my familial group.Yeah.our core group, our solidness.
41:27But we also all had to grow up.His parents were still together.Solid.But he understood our, he was there on the ride.He was there on the ride when like we were like moving around.We were homeless.We were living with people.Like he was watching that whole thing.
41:43He's seen us all the way.Paul's always been like my day one.Like he's so solid and he knows me so well.And we don't have to talk.We don't.It's just deep.It's like brothers, you know?And Billy was like this metal kid, which I loved.
41:59I'm a huge metal fan.And I think like you guys with metal, we are with like punk and pop punk.You guys love the metal crowd, but you're like, you're not going to dictate what we do, though.Like we have to, we're going to lead you guys.And we, I think we came, we sort of, when we came into it, we got put into the, you know, the warp tour.You know, bad religion.I mean, back then it was a, you know, it was no effects, bad religion, rancers.social distortion.
42:26Penny wise.Penny wise.It was a tough crowd for us.It was a tough crowd.It was a tougher crowd, I think, then you find now, it was a different culture.Now, you know, genres don't mean as much.But we were always, even as kids like, yeah, but you guys aren't going to dictate what we do.You know, even if we could in a room as like the new kids or the smallest guys in the room,
42:48I think our hearts, we were lucky to have a little bit of heart to go like, wait a second.No, like, we like you guys.but we like you.We want to be friends.But we're not going to back down.We're not going to back down though.And you're not going to dictate what we do.And I think that like we kind of balanced each other.
43:03Yeah, Billy was like, you know, I think how I got into you guys was like Billy was like,I think, you know, was right off the bat introduced me to you guys and a bunch of other stuff.But going away, I mean, I think you have these long childhood friendships.I think we also needed to reclaim ourselves.I think when we got in the mix of everything in the business,I think the only mistakes we ever made was trying to please people.And sometimes you'll have like this big shot A&R guy who's like,you know, done all this stuff where you'll have, you know,
43:37an agent or a manager.And you don't think of it when you're a kid that they just want you to do thisso they can cash the check, get the commission.And you don't care about money.And keep the train rolling.And keep the train rolling and do his little, you know,not have to deal with headaches of saying,know to people because that can be hard. So I think we kind of got caught in some places where we did
43:59some things that weren't authentic to us, but it wasn't out of, it was only out of wanting to begood partners and wanting to make everyone happy and just be like. And have a career. Yeah. And I thinkwe were driven a lot of approval. I think like whatever our self-esteem things, we had to go awayand work out. You know, like now in our heads, we weren't thinking they just got a $250,000 check.Yeah. So they're patting on the back. In our heads, they were like,like you guys are you guys are hardworking you're talented you know and I think that was what drove uswas like we wanted to I think we want to we really did want to please people I think someone patting us onthe back is the biggest reward we could get but I do think that going away for so long was us we need to
44:41grow up and we needed to I'd rather if I go away and this thing doesn't last it wasn't strong enoughto last if I come back and it's still here then it's meant to be and I really felt like we got tothat place where we have the confidence to do what we want, when we want on our own terms.You guys have always looked up to you guys for that way because it always felt like you were making.You never went off that path.Yeah, it felt like you always made decisions and I always admired that.And I tried to be that way.Like Ben said, I think we did in a lot of ways.
45:11At the heart of it, you know, I also think we needed to become the men we dreamed we could be.Yes.It seems like you guys coming back feels a lot more confident.And it feels like he could take it or leave it.We might show up.we might not. If we're there, it's a big deal.Yeah. If we're not there, there's a reason.Yeah. Right. And it feels like, well, I always tell people that's like,
45:28how can you write records back to back when your only life experience in between your last recordand your new record is just being on the road?It's being on the road. There's no, there's nothing. At that point, you're just movingcords around. And you're right, you're right, it's like, okay, there's going to be the sameversion of what it was. You have to, yeah, you have to go, you have to, like, you have to,I always tell people like, you have to like, we felt like that before the stage.After the stage, we'd put a lot into that record. We took seven years off. And it wasevery single experience was forming that next record, right?
45:57And it wasn't, or you're going to get part two, right?You go on tour for two years, you come back,it's like, oh, what are we right about now?And part two is not always bad.Not always.But you got to do, you can't do part two every time.No.You just got to do it.
46:08If part two is what you want to do, then do part two.I would say that this last decade, give or take,I arrived to, for the first time in my life.I think in the beginning I was trying to make it for some major reasons.Number one, poverty, just to get to a place.So that was my original mission.Yeah.Was like be okay.
46:34Then I discovered the art and I actually like writing songs and I actually want to be a goodsongwriter.Start chasing that and I want people to like me.I had a low self-esteem growing up.I just had a little bit of a run.We always like each other.but like we got picked on and all that.The 90s.
46:54You remember the 90s.I didn't get picked on.You were,yeah,you were more of a fighter.But,well,you,
46:59I got hurt a few times,but I didn't get picked on.Right.How we define picked on.It felt to me like I was being picked on.But I'd say the last decade was the,and credit to my wife,credit to my kids,
47:12credit to my friends,my community of like finding my place in the worldwhere I can stand by what I doand I don't give a fuck.What is,anyone thinks unless I respect them and they have some valid feedback they want to give me.That's different than a comment.Yeah.
47:28Right.The peanut gallery is a different thing than your friends going, hey, that thing you're doing.Can I tell you what I think?I think if you did this or whatever.So I think I had to grow up because at some point in life, no matter what you've been through.Like you said, last time we talked on this show, you said, we're all dealt different cards.but at some point you have to look at the cards and play the cards you have and make the most out of where you were dropped on this planet and what body you were dropped in and you have to at some point stop going why and just start fucking going forward and this is it i get to be me this is what i was take your take your karma like right your karma not in the sense of like if i do good i'll get good the karma of just like wherever whatever whatever reason i landed here in this situation my karma is in this lifetimeI'm gonna, I need to work on, I'm gonna learn this.
48:22And so the emotional journey and anyone out there listening,I say this stuff really so that hopefully someone listening hears this.You are not helpless.You gotta fucking go forward and figure it out.I don't know what else to tell you.Shit happens sometimes and we are all dealt different cards.I will give my sympathy for a second, right?And I will listen to someone and go, yeah, that sounds like bad luck.
48:46Okay, now we just gotta fucking go forward and figure it out.And I think we started doing that at a young age, but we didn't actually realize how powerfulwe were at that because we felt like we were surviving.But in our older age, we realized how powerful those kids were that the same as your band.Just start in your fucking bedroom and start figuring it out.No one gave you permission.No one gave you any help.You guys just did it.
49:10And you didn't ask.No one's really going to say that that's a great idea.And it's the same.Are you sure?Are you sure?Are you sure you want to do that?Same thing you're doing with your businesses, and it's the same thing we're doing with ours.We're not trying to do anything other than what we think we should do because we want to.
49:26Solve a problem.Maybe we had.Right.And that to me is what we started doing when we started MDDN 12 or 13 years ago or however many years it has been now.And so now it's, we flipped it.We used to serve the career because we were afraid.If I'm not in good Charlotte, do I mean anything to the world?am I important?
49:47And I got over that.I was like,you know what?If I'm not important to someonebecause that,then I don't want to be important.Right.And I don't care.
49:55And then I started just doing shitthat outside of Good Charlotteand then I came back to Good Charlottewith like real loveand appreciation for the thing the right way.Yeah,and I was waiting there for you.Yeah.
50:08So let's talk about bid flipsbecause I think while we,well,you know,while we have everyone listening,I think, again, you're doing something similar to what we're doing in terms of just likeyou basically building something you wish you had.Yeah, I think.
50:26That you need.And we're now, we're using it.We're using it.Well, yeah.And I appreciate it that you guys have confidence in trying something because we all knowtrying new stuff is tough in this industry.But I think for me, it's when I see the hornets nest of the music industry trying to figure out,you know what's going on and what the next steps are i am super grateful that i live in a time where
50:52there is no like pure cut you know path to success there was a time when we had our left foot inone way and the right foot in the other and what i mean by that is we came up in 1999 you could stillsell cds you could still buy space on the end cap you could still get at least enough radio play tosee if it, you know, researched well.You could go into K Rock and maybe get Stryker to play it.We still had a paper mailing list at the merchant table.You guys were on TRL, you brought us on.You still had the ability to do things with a half a million dollar music video budget, right?
51:29But at this time, what was happening was the whole industry was changing not from the musicperspective, but from a technology perspective.And technology at the end of the day is how we listen, how we, you know, how we,adapt to what we're doing, how we view this stuff. So you have YouTube coming online. You havethe internet being invented. You have, you know, Limewire and Napster. You have all these thingshappening. And the music industry did nothing. It sat there. And now we have a situation whereeverything has been blown to bits. And so you have to look back and go, okay, well, how can thesepeople serve me as an artist? Because the artist should be working on the songs. But once you
52:09have the songs done, how can this person serve me in terms of a record? And I'll, well, how can welabel or management or agents, whatever it is. And what do they deserve for what they can,and I agree with you, there are people you want to listen to. And I agree with like being a globalbrand like you guys are. You got your band is global. Our band is global. You do need like actual people like,you know, a thousand people around the world pushing and working. You know, you do. Actors. Yeah.And they're transformers. So they have to exist and there's good ones and there's bad ones.There's versions of it. And I go ahead. And I think the world. And I think the world.is getting even less of that.
52:45I think it's getting so, you know,not to use the word singularity,but the music industry is becoming so singularin terms of where you get it,where you hear about it, yada, yada, yada.So our band, because of a major labeland because of being on record labelsand we give them credit where it's due
53:01in that time, it got us to a pointto where now we can kind of take all the safety netsand the parachute off and go, okay, well,what is in front of us now?If I'm going to make a step from day one,How do I make that first step?And to me, it's looking at all the new technologies.Blockchain really stood out to me as something.
53:18Because when I looked at the music industry, I said,there's a merch company that doesn't give us who's buying our merch.There's a record label who's not telling us who our fan is.There's Facebook, Instagram.They're not telling us who our fans are.In fact, they'll change the rules on us and charge us.That's how they make the money.I am the product at that point, right?
53:34They are taking all the money.Then I'm looking at ticketing.Ticketmaster wouldn't tell us who is buying all of our tickets.That's their customer, not ours, right? And then I'm looking at streaming. Well, who's listening? Well,that's Spotify's customer and that's titles customer. That's not your customer. Well, actually,if you look at it, all those companies are standing on the shoulders of artists. And so when I sawblockchain, I didn't think of NFT price go up. I didn't think of, you know, Bitcoin. Obviously,those are different conversations. And we have, you know, I wasn't thinking of all these things.
54:07I was thinking, these are pieces of data, the fan, and how do you make the fans experiencebetter while collecting that data and being able to reach out to them?So that you can super serve them.Well, and also, we're the only one, where the artist in general are the only oneswho purely genuinely like care above all about the fans' experience.Right.And we have none of that information.Yeah.
54:31Unless you get them to sign up on a mailing list.And then you're just sending them emails every once in a while is what it is.So my idea with Bitflips was to make an completely comprehensive flow of everything a fan would do with an artist,listening, purchasing, going to events, all of it, and putting it on some sort of reward card, right?This is your user profile, you get rewarded, and then you'd go, well, Matt, how do you make their experience better?Well, it's easy.You give them your time.You give them access to the front of the line, which most of them want, give them access to early tickets,
55:04and you give them ownership of all these things.Now you prove that you're a fanand you have ownershipwhether you want to use it, sell it,or give it to somebody.And the blockchain is the only thing I've seenthat allows you to do that.People can come at you all day and go,
55:19make your own database.Oh yeah?Well, how am I going to get the informationfrom all these companiesthat are taking it from us?How am I going to have that user databaseand be able to give somebody somethingthat's not like a user code
55:31and tell them that they can sell that?The person will steal it from you,take it from you, right? So there's all these things that blockchain, and we were talking aboutthis earlier, all I've seen in the press for the last 10 years that I've been involved in cryptois how bad it is and how much it's a scam. Today I'm starting to see all the, we were too late tothe puzzle. Now you can move money around the world and it's how it works. It's how it works. And alla sudden, it's a, oh my God, what were we doing? We weren't paying attention. And so I don'twant the music industry to be again, behind the times. And then all these new artists are going to
56:04come up and they're locked into shitty deals, giving 75% of their earnings away, when the labelreally doesn't have the tools at that point to do what they can do themselves and give thefan a better experience.That's the thing.Yeah.So, and that's why I love bid flips.And I think that the thing for every fan listening has to know, no matter who the band is,no matter who the artist is, nine out of 10 of them have the same heart.
56:30You actually just want the fan, you want them to have early access.You want them to have a great experience.It's not a monetization, a money thing.It's an actual thing that you, it's like when you're in the studio making these recordsand creating this to share with people.It's like someone who cooks a meal and wants to watch someone enjoy it.That's the experience of an artist.Well, and let's be really honest here.
56:53You go, where is the monetization for revenge, Seventhold?The idea is that you made that amazing meal, those people will come back.Yep.And they're going to want the next meal and the next meal.We want to make people's experience so good of being this fanthat being a fan anywhere else is like,why aren't they doing X, Y, and Z?Because they want to buy the merch.
57:12They want to rep it.They want to have their communities of peoplethat outside of Avenge Sevenfold,they can go hang out with and meet up with.And the feeling that you getwhen you see a fan, a kid,you know, someone who's grown up,wearing your merch at an airport or in the best feeling in the world.
57:27It's more valuable than any amount of moneyyou could ever make off of sellingthat too. Right. And that's the thing I think fans need to know is that it actually means like youget something from it that money can't buy. For sure. And I think that's what bit flips is it's actuallyall the stuff you explained, I think in articulated is important. It's going to work. Oh,there's no doubt. There's no doubt. It's going to work. It's going to be a climb. It'll be a mountain.It'll work at some point if it's us or if it's not us, at least we started it. And I know thatsometimes people are too early to things.
57:58Listen, I, 10 years ago when I was getting into Bitcoin, everyone thought I wasoff my, out of my mind, right?And you talk about it and you talk about the technicality of it, what it is.There's no way that's going to happen.Hey, the helicopter you came in on today.It says, I would never do that.The Bitcoin helicopter.After Kobe, I will never take an helicopter.
58:18But even that, even that to me, it's, it's something that makes humanity better.Right?we've all, and not to go on a Bitcoin tangent, but we've all sent money to Europe or to a familymember somewhere and you've been completely destroyed on charges and it's going to settle in threedays at your bank and bring in your passport to make sure you have authentication to get.No, we have a thing now that just 10 cents shoot money across to people.We were sending money to Ukraine during the war and they were sending pictures of them gettingthe Ethereum and then buying all the vests and protection for.
58:55these families that were getting bombed by Russia. There was no way we could get money in at that pointexcept through a cryptocurrency. Now, so there's so many things if you just look at things in adifferent way, there's use cases and you know really smart people. You have to trust that reallysmart people are going to figure out the unlock, right? At the beginning, it's always the internetin the beginning, right? The internet in the beginning was a shit show for investors. Everyone's buyingpets.com and all this stuff. But with no idea, well, you,Do you have a pet store?Do you, are you going to, you know, like, right?
59:28Like, what do you need this for?Well, now can we even imagine the world without websites and the internet?It's just, we all live on it daily.And it's at the time that it was like, oh, it's a fad.It's what we, it's like our whole thing with feeps is we believe, okay, the old recordstore experience that we used to have that's necessary.Go to the record store, read magazines, find a record, see a band, go and buy the record.and you hold it and you pay for it,
59:57you buy a T-shirt,and you, like,leave the record storeand you have this music experience.That's gone.There's boutiques.Yeah.But it's not like what,
01:00:05it's not the rich experienceyou had at Tower Records or at,it's not quite,well,well,all those,you have to search it out,you know,
01:00:12and I think that there's a,there's a ton of,like mom and pop shopskeeping it alive,but it's not quite as accessible.If you ever think back when we were kids,it was very accessible.And now it's a niche thing.
01:00:22And then you go on Amazonand it's junky and it's junky andclunky and you can't tell which it's from where and who's it official and is it official and differentprices and yeah and is it like someone just printing shirts in their basement and it's a very hardand amazon isn't managing that well because they don't know the music business music business issuch an interesting so veeps we think of it as like if tower records m tv and netflix had a babyit would be something like a world where you go in and there's endless content, all the bands,you watch documentaries, and you see exclusive and you see merch. So bands all have merch. You see
01:01:02vinyl, exclusive vinyl, and just vinyl and collectibles and things like that. And it's very muchin step with the record experience online, on the platform, on your Apple TV, all happening in a modern waythat we think is and likely will end up transacting in cryptocurrency and all that.But for us, it was like, where does the music business just...Well, like you said, what, 2002 maybe, when we were able to take you guys on MTV,where would we do that now?Well, you know, it's like, where can we discover that isn't, you know,like for us, we were just like, well, I guess we got to build it.
01:01:45Yeah, and I think, you know, I watched the, I've watched a few things on Veebs, and it's the only place you can get things that I really want, right? Like the dying outward. I remember the moment it came out, the countdown and I had purchased that, you know, like, there's a bunch of things on there that. That's a good documentary. It's great. And I just wanted to, and those are interesting people, right? You're like, I just want to know what the hell's going on here. Yeah, yeah. And so, like, I just think it's, it's modern, it's cool. And you need those curators, you need that network effect. And it's music first. Yes. It's music first always. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's modern. It's cool. And it's cool. It's not. It's music first. It's not. It's music first, it's not. It'sanything else it's little shows like this and big shows it's music first and it's a world soit's going to take a long time for it to emerge because it's a tree that's growing it's a bigit's got roots though like artists really fuck with it because veeps puts artists first it's justperiod but that's why i like bitflips because i think there's a world somewhere in the future wherethose two things collide also too i think it's really important for bit flips like and i feel like youyou need to do something on this where there's a link in the description or something for youngbands because I think that I think that the new bands that start using it early that start using it
01:02:55right away yes like right away from day one yes like to me that's where the younger generation theyif you give them a tool they use it 100% most of these things that emerge come from things thatstart off that way right like it's with a ven 7thold we've basically had to tie a thousand poundweight to us and drag itbecause a lot of these fans are either resistant or they're older and they don't have the timefor it. Yeah, the adaption's harder. Right. They understand their American Express card and theyunderstand American Airlines. But as soon as you have to, you know, the music thing doesn't,it's brand new, right? It's like, it's like why, right? And I think that when you have an artist
01:03:36coming up going, this is from day one, this is how we do things, you foster a community that justunderstands inherently and everything that comes out of that from day one is just it's inherent towhat they're doing. And that's usually what happens. It's like what they say, right? It's like the bigcompanies, it's the innovator's dilemma, right? You have these big companies that can't move becausethey're so stuck in what makes them money already. And it's what the really smart people are workingon in their basement on the weekends. That's what becomes the next thing. Can you imagine if we all hadbid flips from our first records? Imagine how big those user bases would be of like fans and how muchyou could super serve everything.
01:04:12You would have so many people.Think about all the email listsand different iterationsand how many fan clubs we've all startedand they've dropped and they don't work or this or that.The next 10 years is going to be about building and growing.And then at some point,you're going to have all these partnerships
01:04:27with all these institutions in different ways, right?Yeah.Because everyone needs innovation.And then at some point,whether or not you're bought by someonebecause, not because you want to be a billionaire,but because the strength of together and the need to integrate is deeper than just the partnership,right?
01:04:47That's when a good sale happens.When they need what you do so bad, it just makes sense for this number of artists and everyoneusing it for you guys to integrate.That's probably the only situation where that kind of thing happens or you just build aninstitution.But that takes a decade and a half, two decades, right?Yeah.But I know the reason I know you'll.
01:05:09do it is why you're doing it. It's not about the size of the money. It's about the actualexperience and the innovation. Every decision has been towards user experience. And that's it.That's the key. Put that first and it'll just keep being, and it'll be built by the artists thatuse it. Like VEPS, the early seven years, it was built by everyone who used it. They're like,this is broken. This doesn't work. We had a bad experience with this, but they believed in it,the idea of it. Is it easier to dream for?for something like bit flips or for the band?I think the band musically is the North Star, right?
01:05:48Like whatever the music and it kind of,that's like so natural.Yeah.I think you live and breathe it.You live and breathe it.And it's like just like it's artistic expression.Nothing really gets in that bubble of us writing and then recording with people that wetrust and love.
01:06:04But I think the music industry has been the most shocking to me because,I've talked to a million managers now that I never would have talked to.And the problem with something in the music industry is that you have to convince the managerwho doesn't want to get fired and they don't want to do anything new because they can get fired.Too much work sometimes too.An artist who wants to complain but doesn't actually want to try anything new because they'rekind of audience captured by their fans.The reality of the work they don't want to deal with.
01:06:32They just want to complain.Right.You have fans that have heard so much bad stuff about this particular industry that they wantto shut it down right away. So the artist doesn't want that backlash. And if the manager brought it tothem, the manager is going to be in trouble. And then if you look at it from the label side,they played that game for a minute when NFTs were happening in 2001. And there's no one therereally that saw it from a technical perspective. They saw it as a, how can we sell bullshit to people?Right. They didn't see the application. Well, and then think about how much they did that to people.
01:07:01We're going to sell you 2100 records of our record on the blockchain and you all own the record.and it's going to be a thousand bucks each.And you just ripped off a bunch of fansfor something that makes no sense.Anyone sensible could see that that was never going to be good, right?And so now you have this,you have four groups of people that don't either understand it,don't want to lose their job,
01:07:22or don't want to try something new and are afraidbecause they've heard bad things.So I have like a multi-prong battle going on.And so what I've done is just internalizedand said,we are going to make Avenge Sevenfold's Deathbats Club and what we do so fucking goodthat it's just going to have to spread like a disease from the inside and bring people on likeyou guys and other there's a few other artists we're talking to that can just handle it right and
01:07:50understand that this is new and this is going to be great and you're going to hear shit from the outsidebut the inside's going to be very cool and that's all I can do at this point because I can't go talkto these people and just have them give me the bullshit and then know that they're walking back in aroom and it can be convinced within one second by somebody on their team that doesn't know whatthey're talking about. I've seen it so many times now. It takes a lot of guts too because you know,you go from having your experience in your band. That's how you got into the music businessto doing something like this. And it can be humbling because, you know, people get on,come to the meeting or get on the Zoom or do whatever. And it's like, well, show me.
01:08:28Yeah. Show me. Show me. What you're working on. But it's also it's the guy. It's the guy fromgood Charlotte or it's the guy from a vintage sevenfold and they can't see anything other than that.And I think it takes...How am I getting... How do I make my money? How do I make my money? Let me, let's zoom out forone second. I know we got to end this in a second. Zoom up for one second. Do you want an ecosystemthat the fan and you control so passionately that these people are just die hard and you're makingmore diehards every day? You tell me how that's going to make you more money. No, I can't tell youhow to siphon money off them from day one. No, I can't tell you to sell them a fucking JPEG
01:09:03for $1,000 and going to hand you a million dollar check.But what I can tell you is how to build something so that in 10, 20 years, you have such arobust ecosystem that they are happy, you're happy, and it's just flowing in a way that is justvery natural.Well, that's because we all think the same way.The money is whatever.It's a byproduct of things going well.Yes.
01:09:23If you build Disneyland, if you build your version of Disneyland, that's what all this isfor me is like trying to, right?You're right.Just come into the world and experience.experience. That's what Veeps is to me. It's a world that's growing. And every artist that comes inand starts to put their stuff in, they see it like it's growing. It's going to take time.I think we're 10 years away from it being like a full grown like that's why we might all betoo early. We all might kickstart something and then, you know, it comes back. Think about all the
01:09:54the startups and the ICO, the NFTs, all those things that happened within 20, 21 to now.And now look at now. All gone. All gone.all gone because they were just they saw it and it was too early and it was about the money it wasabout the money a lot of them yeah right but there's a lot of things that have survived and and and thesame thing's going to happen with you guys and us and at the end of the day I don't even care yeahI just I want to be involved in it right now I want to make my own littlecompelling corner of the internet that's like really fun it's like an arcade from the 80sit's like it's compelling it's compelling and I think that's the way to live I think for
01:10:26anybody out there it's like just do shit that's compelling um I think that you have to create musicfrom the same place. If you create music thinking about the money, you're fucked. The music's alwaysbeen easy, right? When you talk about like, what's the easiest thing? The music's easy. I get with my guysand we just start listening to the things that we love and we're like, this really blew me aware.This was really interesting. And we start like ideating. And then like you know, I don't give a shitwhat that, how many tracks are going to be on it? What that's all going to look like? I want to getour boy West Lang and be like, yo, here's some songs. What do we do? Like, that's a creative process.and there's not one person outside of that band that has any saying it.
01:11:04Right?And it's like, that's easy.Like, that's the fun part.That's the fun part.Well, thanks for coming.Thanks for having me.I always love seeing you guys.Thanks to Revolver for the cover.
01:11:15Yeah, this idea.Great idea, guys.And yeah, thanks, Matt.You're awesome.You guys are awesome.Thank you for listening to Artist Friendly.We really appreciate it.If you like the show, you can also follow us on Spotify.
01:11:29you can follow us on Instagramat artist.friendlyand you can watch us on YouTube andVeeps. Leave comments, I alwaysread them. See you next time.
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