Ask Haviv Anything - 111: How Somaliland and Israel became fast friends, with Amb. Mohamed Hagi

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

To support our work, please consider joining our Patreon community (https://www.patreon.com/c/AskHavivAnything), Substack (https://havivgur.substack.com/), or Buy Me a Coffee (https://buymeacoffee.com/havivrettiggur).Be sure to check us out on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/haviv.rettig.gur/) and TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@haviv.rettig.gur).--In a world where recognition is said to be a precondition for legitimacy, Somaliland built one of Africa's most surprising success stories without stopping to ask for the world's charity or permission.In this episode, Haviv sits down with Ambassador Mohamed Hagi, Somaliland’s first envoy to Israel and a key architect of Israel's recognition of his country, to explore one of the most unlikely and revealing relationships in global politics. We talk about a country that built a democracy out of the ruins of a terrible war, built stable and competent institutions without international support, and is now stepping onto the world stage on its own terms.What does it mean when a deeply Muslim society embraces partnership with Israel? Why does Somaliland succeed where formally recognized states fail? And how does a small country navigate geopolitics, identity and survival in one of the most strategically fraught and vital corners of the world?--Thank you to the anonymous sponsor who asked to dedicate this episode to the victims of October 7.--If you like what we do here, please consider joining our Patreon community at https://www.patreon.com/c/AskHavivAnything or on Substack at https://havivgur.substack.com/. You can also Buy Me a Coffee at buymeacoffee.com/havivrettiggur. It helps us keep the lights on. Patreon is also where you can ask the questions that guide the topics we cover on the podcast, join our great discussions where listeners share news and valuable resources, and take part in our monthly livestreams where Haviv answers your questions live.If you would like to sponsor an episode, please email us at [e-mail]⁠.Musical intro by Adam Ben Amitai.

Hi everybody. Welcome to As Khaliv Anything. I'm extremely excited today to be introducing Ambassador Muhammad Hajie as Somali Lans, first ambassador to Israel. We're thrilled to have him on the podcast, and we're going to be diving into this brand new, fascinating relationship. Before we get into it, I want to tell you that this episode is sponsored by an anonymous sponsor who asked to dedicate it to the victims of October 7, simple, anonymous, and we're very grateful for that support. I also would like to invite everyone to join our Patreon community. It helps us keep this project going. We need your support. If you are interested in asking the questions that guide the topics we talk about, that's the place where you do it. And also you get to take part in our monthly

live streams where I answer your questions live. We have a great time over there. Please join us at www.com.com slash ask Chaviv. Anything that link is in the show notes. Mr. Ambassador, how are you? I'm fine. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me here. Thank you so much for coming on. Let's start with just tell us a bit about yourself. Beyond the education in Britain, ambassador to Taiwan, where do you come from in Somaliland? Where are you from?

It seems like if you go from Taiwan to Israel, you like complicated and sensitive postings and policies. And I've been reading about your work. you're not just an ambassador in the simple sense that other countries might just have a career ambassador. You helped build this relationship. So tell us about yourself and how you came to be the ambassador to Israel from Somaliland. Thank you very much, Aviv. I really appreciate and thanks for having me here today. You know, people sometimes ask why I have so often been interested with firsties.

I see less as a distinction and more as a reflection of Somaliland's formative J. I was involved early on in establishing our Coast Guard, helping design a system to secure roughly around 850 kilometers of coastland against piracy, illegal fishing and transnational crime. I later served as a senior advisor on the macroeconomic policy in the Minister of Finance and then on foreign policy. I was the first senior advisor on the foreign policy in the Minister of Foreign Affairs as well,

contributing to House of Maliland positions itself, externally. I had the privilege of serving as our first ambassador to Taiwan, followed by advising the president on foreign affairs and international cooperation as well. And today I serve as an ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary to Israel with concurrent accreditation across the region. Each role has been part of a continuous effort to build an institutions where none previously existed. So I don't know exactly why that is happening to be, but I always made these communications. I'm very delighted that I worked hard and building the relationship between Somaliland and Taiwan from scratch

and also Israel-Somali relations, which I have been involved in the last 12 months. So we're going to get into that. Somaliland seems to know how to build new things in the world. Before we get into that, tell us about Somaliland. What should foreigners who maybe haven't even heard of the country know about it? We've had an episode before, but that was just me explaining, I guess, the Israeli thinking from that end, what Somaliland is, where it comes from.

I think people would learn a lot more from you. What is Somaliland's story and what should we know about the culture, the religion, the identity, whatever you think is important for us to know? I know that there are a lot of literature review for those who want to read Somaliland. And it's a 35-year-old country. So what I can previously say is that Somaliland is a stable, self-governning country that has sustained peace and an institutional continuity for the last 35 years in a challenging regional environment. While money might not yet be familiar with it, the reality is that Somaliland has developed, functioning democratic institutions, maintained in turn of security, enforced a distinct political identity grounded in a plan of a traditional and modern governance. It's a society shaped by Islamic values, a strong social cohesion, and a deep commitment to order an accountability.

So this is the country of Somaliland. So I can previously say for that. And those who want to reach Somalilana's history, whether that's 1960 and before 1960, they will know that Somalila was a country before it voluntarily united with now and with no act of union with Somali in 1960 and then restore its sovereignty back from the Union that has failed in 1991. Since then, it was a democracy, it was a sovereign country that was functioning the best of its kind in the Horn of Africa region and the Greater Eastern Africa region. And when you say the Union failed, it failed, of course, in brutal war, war by Somalia against the people of Somaliland. I you know Somaliland has a currency and you can't trade on Swift the banks can't trade on

Swift and the currency isn't traded in the international currency markets you have governance and police even though you're not a recognized UN member state you have there isn't a definition in political science for a state that you don't meet there are states recognized by the UN that don't meet all those definitions. You meet all the definitions. And so I have two questions, and we'll get to the international one. Why don't they recognize you? Second, first question, how did you build this success story? You have had elections. We're talking about the horn of Africa. You have had elections with real changes of government. You have accountability. That is not a joke. You have better monetary policy and a currency that you can't trade with the world

than the countries around you and currencies that can trade with the world. You believe in institution building, I forgive me for sounding like an ad. I was not paid by the Somaliland government. People should go back to my first episode on Somaliland. It's an extraordinary story. It's not just an extraordinary story. It's a story that calls to question the world's standards and international standards. If Somaliland doesn't qualify, what does? So, you know, why are you successful when literally the international community has locked you into boxes, disabled your ability to access banking and international monetary fund support, all the things that recognition means. You don't have any of those things. And you're more

successful than all your neighbors who do and get vast aid and all of the rest of it. And then the second part is, why won't they recognize you? Yeah, very good. Two questions. It's a bit broader question. The first thing is that it's the reason why Somaliland is different from every country in this region is that because of the social contract. People of Somaliland, when we liberated our country from the dictatorial regime, that killed 200,000 people and destroyed all our cities, including the capital of Somaliland, Argeisa, and many other places. And our people, most of them, 60 or 70 percent of them evacuated from Somaliland to Ethiopia. Then when we liberated the country, we came together.

Then what we succeeded was something that no one in the world can support it. It was the, we have done the demobilization and disarmament on our own. People of Somaliland, their crimes, they came together, they decided to make peace within and then restored their sovereignty from the union that has completely faith. So what we have done was a disarmament of our militias that has been liberated the country. And then the demobilization and reintegration of the people of Somaliland, then we succeeded to build a state, the peace building programs, which is funded by the people of Somaliland on their own,

and then homegrown democracy, this democracy that function in Somaliland, that I think that no idea of the country in the region has this kind of a democracy. It's not a self-imposed democracy. It's a homegrown democracy where people of Somaliland choose to have this kind of a democracy in their country. Last elections, if you are familiar with Somaliland,

it was 2003 elections, presidential elections, only 80-fords difference was between the main opposition party and the governing party. And only 80 votes, 8-0 votes. And then it was a peaceful transfer of power every single time. No, even the opposition party that lose the election, I've never gone to the court. They just accepted the results in that way. So this is the social contract between the people of Somalia. They won peace, the very peace-loving people in this.

region and the world to build the country. The other thing is that I just want to say something about the democracy of Somaliland. Our democracy system is not externally imposed completely, as I told you before. It has evolved from within. So Somalayan has successfully combined a modern structure with customary mechanisms of dialogue and conflict resolution. This has enabled us to maintain political stability, conduct critical elections, and ensure peaceful transfers of power. In a region of characterized by volatility. Somaliland demonstrates that democratic governance that can take rules and ensure when it reflects the local reality. So the reason that many countries not recognize Somaliland is something to be, you know, ask those countries who are not really

actually recognized Somalilat. But we build everything that a state has. Even where better off than countries that already have the members of the United Nations or members of the African Union. when it comes to peace and political stability, when it comes to democracy, when it comes to financing. Even we are wealthier, so many countries in Africa. So that is the situation in Somaliland. And Somaland deserves to be recognized

by the international community, something that we are seeking, engaging. But we have a very good relationship with Somalida. Although we don't have a formal recognition from many countries in the world, we have this relationship with neighboring countries. Our partner in Ethiopia,

which is a strategic partner in the whole of Africa region, we have a very good relationship. And what we contribute to this region is peace, political stability and democracy, although the countries in the region have not that much of democracy.

But we have this. We're contributing good things to the people of the region. To me, it's also extraordinary that you'll send an ambassador to Taiwan. You'll send an ambassador to Israel. You play on the biggest geopolitical chess arena without chess board, you know, without all of those tools, all that whole toolkit of recognition.

And that leads me to the next question. What do ties with Israel mean for Somaliland? Obviously, I'm asking about the geopolitics, the Horn of Africa. There was talk in some of the media about military bases or military cooperation, India. wants to be a partner of Somaliland. I don't know about recognition, but partnership of some kind, the Emirates. But not just the geopolitics.

I want to start specifically with the Israeli relationship. In February, when Israel accepted your ambassorship or granted accreditation, there's that formal process of taking in an ambassador, I don't think the ink was dry on that letter by the Israeli foreign minister when you already had a team from the Somaliland Water Authority in Israel on the ground learning about planning water systems.

So you, from your initiative, are just eager to get as much as possible out of it. Can you tell us about that? What is the relationship with Israel mean for Somaliland? Thank you very much. Again, that was a very, very important question. Our engagement and relationship with Israel should be understood as a part of a pro-a-strategic orientation. Somaliland is deliberately cultivating relationship with partners that values stability, innovation or responsible governance. While the geopolitical dimension is evident, the relationship is also substantive,

focused on practical cooperation in areas such as technology, water management, agriculture, and security, of course. From our perspective, this is a foundation of a long-term, deep partnership built on shared interest. So what we are going to build with the Israelis is a strategic partnership that can last forever. We see Israel as a very, very important country. For us, it is the first country that recognized Somaliland in 1960. What we gained our independence from the UK government, 26th, 2016, and then Israel became the first country again that recognized Somaliland. for the first time. So Israel is something for Somalilandans. Our hearts and minds are always with Israel because of these

recognitions. We need to build a relationship that is mutually beneficial for Israeli people, for Israeli government, for our people and our governments as well, and that can last long, last law. It will be based on economic development. We have natural resources in Somaliland, we have rare earth minerals in Somaliland, we have oil and gas, we have a long coast, 850 kilometers, kilometers. We have a character of 177,000 kilometers square. So we have a lot to offer to our partner, Israel. And Israel is a kind of a manufacturing industry. They have the know-how. We have the natural resources. So in that way, we can benefit economically. And we look at one of the most

strategic areas in the well when it comes to security at the same time, not only security, but also economic and trade. Our neighbor is now. next goal, Ethiopia, 130 million people. And then we have 16 landlocked country in Africa that can connect to Berbera. So we have a lot for Israel. And of course, we are benefiting Israel for many, many areas. So this is what we need to build as a relationship that's in-depth, that will be beneficial for people in Israel, for the economic.

We are going to contribute the Israeli economy. and we want also Israel to contribute our economy on trade and also security wise we are going to contribute each other because we have, although we have different enemies, although we have common enemies at the same time, terrorists, piracy, all these are common enemies for Israelis and also Somalandis. So we are working together and we want this relationship to prosper.

And of course it will prosper under my leadership. And the leadership of the new ambassador being appointed recently at the two governments, the prime minister, and the president of Somalian as well. I think Israelis like just about everything that they hear about Somaliland. There's something defiant and there's something plucky and about standing in a world where recognition, you know, you don't fit in the conception of the countries around you.

I want to dig into that part of it, just a tiny bit more, the lack of recognition. What does it cost and how do you overcome those costs? Just to mention again, you know, you have a hard time accessing international banking. You have a hard time getting on the currency market. You're not on the currency markets, right? Healthcare facilities, they're not connected to international databases. Just my simple question is, how do you manage?

And not just manage, how do you turn around a success story that outstrips the countries around you in many ways. What is that story? I will start like the absence of form of recognition does impose tangible constraints, of course. We're not denying that, particularly in financial systems, international banking, and access to global institutional frameworks. However, Somalan has adopted by strengthening internal systems, maintaining physical discipline, and leveraging selective partnerships. Our progress under such constraints is not incidental. It reflects its structural resilience. Recognition would not create capacity. It will simply allow that capacity to operate without unnecessary limitations. So what we understand from our region is that, of course, you know that

there are many countries in Africa, many countries in Asia, many countries in Latin America, that are very much suffering while they have the recognition, while they have the membership of the United Nations. But what we manage is that, of course, we are not recognized country, but we have a people here, 6.5 million people. We have a functioning government here. We have a huge land full of resources, and we can partner and we can interrelationships with other countries.

And we can also trade within Somaliland and our neighbors. That is exactly how we manage. to do something in our economy and that our people can survive. So we have a bigger economy than many, many countries in the world. When it comes to GDP, when it comes to income, capital, when it comes to the unemployment rate. So this is exactly how we manage things. We understand that recognition doesn't create the capacity.

It is always the people that need to build this capacity and to do something on their own, build their own constitutions. We have, let's say in Africa, when it comes to Africa, we have a bank. It's a private bank. It's called the Hapshiel Bank. We have many other banks in Somalilat. We have free communication companies in Somalilat. We have one of the fastest internet in the world and cheapest internet in the world.

Our people, they just came together and built this. And we are treating people. Our people are treating people. We don't have many industries in Somaliland or manufacturing. I'm talking about factories in Somaliland, but what we have is that we have a good port in Somalilat, one of the most is British one. We have a long course.

So what we do is that we engage our business people. By the way, 95% of our economy lies in the private sector. Only 5% or 4% of the economy is governed by the government. So the private sector came together. They just try to engage the wealth and try to import communities and goodies from outside. And what they did was that, because we have the supports and facilities, and they re-export that into our neighboring countries.

So this is how Somaliland people really create jobs and engage the will, importing and re-exporting, because our markets are free, we have a free economic market here in Somaliland. We have a peace, we have a political stability, we encourage foreign direct investment, We succeeded to establish money, money foreign businesses here in Somaliland. D.B. World has invested $500 million dollars almost to the port of Berberra. It's a huge one.

This is exactly what we have in Somaliland. And peace and political instability is the key to everything, when it comes to businesses, when it comes to engaging with people, and the existence of the people in the country as well. So this is what we have. political stability, democracy, free market economy. Those are the places we have. And of course, we are trying to engage more to the world. I think our relationship with Israel is going to help.

We have also a good relationship with Taiwan. Taiwan is quite distant and it's not the relationship in which we have. Taiwan is a deep relationship. Having Taiwan, having Israel trying to engage with the Americans and other European countries, Those who we share value, the like-minded countries will also help us to engage that our free market will engage those countries very soon. And we are preparing that. We're building our capacity and this is going to help. I think Israeli relationship will very much help because Israeli people are really open-minded people.

Our culture and the culture of Israel is very similar when it comes to trade and investment and the courage of taking risks. We take risks. Israeli investment and Israeli business communities, they always take risks. So I think we can make something out of this. Is it fair to say that you are becoming something of a linchpin of an interesting new alliance? You mentioned the Emirati DP World Investment in Beber Report. Berbera port's capacity, I think, has been tripled just in the last couple of years or five years. It's a world-class port now.

And being at the Horn of Africa is significant. India is extremely interested, talks about it openly, and the Israelis. And, of course, there is that big question of the Babelmandub Straits, the Houthis, the Horn of Africa generally, piracy, as you mentioned. And so there's so many different elements that are all kind of converging. on this unbelievably strategically placed. And as you said, with tremendous resources and stability and a willingness to expand and grow and looking for that, there are people out there

now talking about a Berbera axis around this port, around your port, around your coastline, around the strategic importance of it. Is that overstating it? Or do you think that that's what's happening? That there's a real alliance being built by like-minded countries? You know, I just want to say two things together.

One thing is about Berbera port, and of course the regional dynamics that is also going on. The port of Berbera is central to Somalian's strategic positioning, located along the Gulf of Aden near the Babelmander. We have the Babelmander near Pye, and we have the Mediterranean, not far away from us as well. We have the Red Sea, we have the Gulf of Aden, we have the Indian Ocean next to us as well.

It sits at the intersection of the major global trade routes. It has become a key logistical hub, that is Berberra, linking regional economies, particularly through partnership with countries such as Ethiopia and United Arab Emirates for now. At the same time, we are fully aware of the evolving security environment in the Red Sea. Somalans' approach is measured and consistent. To safeguard maritime routes, maintain internal... stability and avoid unnecessary entanglement in regional conflicts while remaining prepared to respond to emerging risks.

So this we understand also what's happening in the region. And our economy is very much rely on that food because I told you now that might be 98 or 99% of what we consume is imported from per per and from our coast is. And we want also that to be very secure. We want also a secure Gulf of Eden, secure Reb Sea area. And we are also engaging with the Americans, with the Israelis, with everybody, to make sure that these area would be very much secure. So we understand also the regional dynamics

and the potential of economic development and trade in this region. And very important also. So we have to balance everything at the same time. Are you worried in that regard? The Houthis have already issued a public threat to Somaliland. Don't allow, I don't know what, Israeli foothold. I forget the exact details, but this is probably more than once. You coordinate with the Israelis, you coordinate with the Americans on the question of security.

Iran has a bunch of proxies. The Houthis in Yemen were right next door to you, and they have begun conflicts before. And there's been a naval shooting war with the Americans, Israeli bombardment in that part. of Yemen. Are you worried this will spill over into you? And what kinds of military capabilities does Somaliland have if that kind of a thing happens? Somal land is a very, very small country. We know that. And we are small in size. We're only 6.5 million people, but located one of the most strategic areas in the world. We want our seas and land to be very secure. Of course, there are a lot of things that we can work on the, on, on countries that the US and Israelis and

the Marathis and countries that we engage more. At present, there are no formal agreement regarding the establishment of foreign military bases in Somaliland. That said, dialogue with partners on security cooperation is both natural and necessary. Given the strategic importance of our location, Somaland already contributes to maritime security and security and counter-paracy efforts. There is no single incidence of piracy in Somaliland, since when the piracy in the Gulf of Aden, it started, that was 2005-2006, no single incidence of Paris.

Because barricie always comes from the land. So we make sure that our land is secure. Our country is very peaceful. There's no people taking arms and going to the sea to kidnap and hijack, you know, tankries and an international, you know, shipping in this area. So Manlan already contributes to maritime security and counterparis. That's the reason why I'm saying that. Any future arrangement would be carefully considered.

If we just want to build relationships with countries, that could be carefully considered, aligned with our national interests and oriented to it enhancing regional stability. So we have to also balance what's going to happen. But we, of course, worry about what is happening everywhere in our region because that is affecting us. That is. is increasing the inflation in Somaliland. So we have to make sure that this area is very, very secure, and we are engaging, you know, like-minded countries to make sure that the whole area is peaceful and secure

and that ships can access easily in Babel-Bandabandah RIS. And we are contributing and helping that area to be very, very secure. Thank you so much for your time. One final question. What struck me at the very beginning of this conversation, of the Israeli Somaliland conversation when it became public, was that you're a Muslim country, and we are a Jewish majority country,

and that's a tremendous source of tension in large parts of the Muslim world, in large parts of the Arab world, and there is the conflict with the Palestinians, and there is the conflict with Iran and Chazbalah. And there is, there are so many reasons that for identity reasons, there would be this Gulf with any Arab country, any Middle Eastern country, any Muslim country.

And yet, when Israelis have gone to visit Somaliland, a few officials have done so, the foreign minister has done so. But I've talked to people who have done so. they were greeted incredibly warmly. There is a sense that, you know, it is well over 90% Muslim. I mean, the vast majority of the population are Sunni Muslim. And the sense that they can have a relationship with Israel is very natural. It's very easy.

There isn't a gap, as we see in some of the countries around us. We might have an alliance with the King of Jordan in many ways. But the people of Jordan, according to Poles, are very much. much anti-Israeli. And it goes beyond specific conflicts or specific years. Yeah. Why is the friendship between Israelis and Somalilanders easy? And that's it. That's my final question. Where does that cultural ability come from? You've built many bridges in the Arab world, the Muslim world, but we're weird. We're harder, aren't we? Why is that so easy? You know, I just want to tell you, before I answered the question, I just want to share with you.

when we were negotiating and discussing the Israelis with our relationship, because we are going there, they're coming here, and we have been communicating for more than 12 months. And I was all the time telling the Israelis, if you recognize, because they were very much skeptical about the recognition of Somalia in the first place, they see that if we recognize you might be, our recognition might

attract extremism in the region some of the people of Somalala might say no to this recognition because of the issues that you have now been you know the things that you have been explaining now because we are Muslim

maturity I think 100% of the Somalalian people are Muslims I don't see you know in Somaliland lots of everybody I see in Somaliland in my entire life was a Muslim so I can say 99.99% the people of Somaliland are Muslims.

And they were asking the question of, if we recognize you, it might be this will, this applies to you. And I was saying this, no. If Israel recognized Somaliland, you will see we have a 6.5 million people in Somaliland. That's our population. Once you recognize them,

you will see Israeli flag being waived in the cities in Somalida. And I was just comparing your relationship with country, Muslim countries. for example, the UAE. There is a government government. They signed the Abraham Accords. Bahrain have signed the Abraham Accords, Morocco as well. But it's always the government to government most of the time.

Somaliland is we want these people-to-people relationship, not only government to government-Sumali. And I was explaining the issue. I said, oh, look, you will see. If you recognize Somaliland, not along, you know, don't talk about the instability. and this will create more cohesion within the people of Somaliland in the first place. People will be very much united and the country will be stronger.

And you will see Israeli flags being waived and your people will be very much welcome. And you will get the hearts and minds of 6.5 million people, the Israeli government, the people of Israel. And this is exactly what happened. There was only one Israeli in Somaliland at the time of the record. He was an engineer. He came Somaleland to study about, you know, because we have lack of our, we have scarcity of water in Somaliland. And you know, Israel is very much advanced with that. He was here at the time. He was in Berbera. People didn't know him. It was just, when he came, he said, I'm from Malta. And by the time, the recognition came. Then I called him on the phone. I said, where are you now? He said, on my way to Argeisa, About half an hour, I'll be arriving in her case. I said, come to the president office. I'm waiting you there.

And he came to the president office, and I said to everybody who was around, this is an Israeli guy. And people were trying to hug him, to greet him calmly, and very much welcoming him. So he was the luckiest guy from Israel at the time because he was the only person in the country at the time.

So we, of course, people of Somalia and are Muslims. But that doesn't mean we engage the Americans. We engage the Taiwanese, or the majority of them are not Christians. Why not the Israelis? What's the difference between Israel and Taiwanese? What's the difference between the Americans and the Christians that we always engage and the Jewish people? They recognize us in 1960.

Again, they recognize us. The first country they recognized in Malian Land. So it's not about the religion. What we are building is a relationship. We are not taking the Jewish religion. We're not going to inform them to become an Islam. This is a relationship between two countries and two peoples. So the Somaliland people, this is the way the Somaliland,

from Somalans perspective, when you talk to the elites of Somaliland. Also you talk to the ordinary citizens of Somalian, They will tell you there's no hostility between Somalilandis and Israelis. We want to engage with them. We want to trade with them. We want to host them. They want us to build our capacity of knowing how. We have resources.

We can share these resources with Israelis. They also can share and transfer the knowledge to our people, education, health, water, those kind of things. So it's about the engagement. not about religion. Nothing's about religion. Every country is, you know, countries engage always on interests. So this is exactly what we're building and our people are not ignoring people. They are very clever. They're very smart people. They understand the context of politics. They understand, you know, that the relationship between Israel and Somalida and is nothing to do with religion. That is the ordinary citizen of Somaliland. And we want to build this relationship.

And you will witness that this relationship would be one of the best special relationships in the world. We want to strengthen and give in the relationship in a way that no one can imagine. Ambassador Dr. Muhammad Haji, thank you so, so very much for agreeing to this interview, for joining us. And I'll also leave in the show notes the last episode about Somaliland's history, the case for recognition of Somaliland that we did back when the Israelis recognized Somaliland. Thank you so much for joining us. I can't wait to see that relationship. And visiting someday, it's supposedly very beautiful. Thank you very much. Really appreciate that. Thank you for having me.