Ask Haviv Anything - Episode 6: Why won't Israel fight for the Democrats? With Rep. Ritchie Torres

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Abandoning the Democrats is a losing strategy for Israel, says Rep. Ritchie Torres, perhaps the most outspoken supporter of Israel in the US House of Representatives. The fight over Israel inside American politics is a proxy for a much larger battle over the future of the Democratic Party and the character of America, he argues. Those who don't like Israel, he says, tend to take a dim view of the promise of America.And who is Clarence Jones, and why does Torres consider him "the greatest living American?"Thank you to Jason and Lauriel Klinghoffer for sponsoring this episode in honor of Jason’s grandmother, Nusia Klinghoffer, a holocaust survivor who passed away last year.Please join me on Patreon to support this project: ⁠ www.patreon.com/AskHavivAnything⁠ If you would like to sponsor an episode, please email us at ⁠[e-mail]⁠.A podcast by Haviv Rettig Gur

Hello, welcome to Ask Khabiv Anything. This is a very special episode. I'm here with a hero of mine, Congressman Ritchie Torres. Before we get into it, I just want to say thank you to Jason and L'Oreal Klinghoffer for sponsoring this episode in honor of Jason's grandmother Nusia Klinghoffer, a Holocaust survivor who passed away last year. Thank you. Congressman Torres and I come from very different worlds.

You come from the East Bronx. You have a history and a background that is very much a, from poverty and from real trials and tribulations, a single mother, a neighborhood with tremendous amounts of crime and problems. You represent that neighborhood today. And you have become now a congressman. You rose up the ranks, I would say, of the very much the progressive part of the Democratic Party. You were a 2016 delegate for Bernie Sanders.

Richie, why are you and I now having a conversation because you're one of the most famous congressmen in the Jewish community and the one of the most loved, probably the single most loved, represented in the U.S. Congress of the Jewish community who has held the line on Israel. Can you describe an arc that takes you from really a deep background in progressive politics to a place where you're now critical of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party on these issues? and therefore just so fascinating and so important to all the people I know. Well, for me, the most important virtue and political leadership, but one of the most important virtues is empathy. You know, when you're a representative, you have to represent your various constituencies, communities as if you were a part of the community. So I have a wonderfully varied district.

You know, I have a substantial Latino population, African-American population. I represent little Italy, little Ireland, an Albanian population. Little Albania. Little Albania. And a vibrant Jewish community in Riverdale. And so I try to represent every community as if I were a member of the community. I try to represent the Jewish community in Riverdale as if I were a member of the Jewish community. I feel like that should be the ideal, the standard of representation in a multiracial,

a multi-ethnic, multi-religious democracy like the United States or like the state of Israel. So the starting point for me is empathy, which was instilled in me by my mother. Everything that is virtuous about me is attributable to my mother and everything that's vicious about me. I'm fully to blame. But to your question. It's attributable to politics. But the question, you know, how did I come to be a Zionist? I will be the first to a bit. I'm an improbable. Zionist because I grew up in a community that was almost exclusively Latino and African-American. I had no engagement with the Jewish community as a child, no knowledge of Judaism or Zionism. And when I first entered politics in 2014, I was a blank slate, Tabula Rasa, on the subject of Israel.

And then I was invited by the Jewish Community Relations Council to go to Israel for the first time. It was the first time I ever had an opportunity to travel abroad. And when you experience both the complexity and the majesty of Israel, it's a profoundly transformative experience. You know, going to the old city, going to Yad Vashem, going to the Masada, going to the Gaza envelope. I remember going to Steyrote and speaking to the local mayor, who said to me that the majority of his children struggle with post-traumatic stress, because families like his live under the threat of relentless rocket fire. I remember seeing the bomb shelters, and I thought to myself, imagine the sheer trauma of an Israeli child seeking refuge in a bomb shelter,

while rockets are being fired and sirens are going off, and adults are panicking in a scene of pandemonium, and all of this is unfolding not during wartime, but during peacetime. This is what normal looks like in the Gaza envelope. And I come from the Bronx, which is a rough neighborhood. I have family members and friends and constituents who live in fear of guns and bullets. But no one in the United States lives in fear of rockets and missiles. None of us worry that Mexico and Canada are going to fire rockets and missiles into American homes and communities.

And so I came to realize early on that Israel faces a level of volatility and insecurity that has no analog in the American experience. And, you know, after experiencing Israel firsthand, I came to be aware of my own privilege as an American. You know, as an American, I live in a continental republic, you know, guarded by oceans, surrounded by peaceful neighbors, which is a striking contrast to the security situation of Israel, which is a tiny democracy, the size of New Jersey, surrounded by enemies that are intent on wiping it from the map. And so, So Israel confronts a security situation that has no equivalent anywhere else in the world. Yossi Klein-Halevi beautifully describes Israel as democracy and duress.

It is the best experiment in democracy under duress that I've ever seen. Why do you think it's so hard to get that message across? You and I have gone to dinner when I was in New York and I was trying to sort of figure out what makes you tick. Because you're remarkable on that, you're not the regular run of discourse on the progressive end of the Democratic Party. And on so many issues, you're very progressive. I like to tell people that I'm to the left of Bernie Sanders on health care. I come from a country with universal health care. And so is Benjamin and Tanyao, by the way.

So I hope Republicans never talk to him about that. that. But I'm joking, but just to say that there are many, many issues, people can be on many different sides and different issues. You really are very deep in the progressive camp on many, many issues. Why is it so hard to convey that story? And by the way, you have criticisms and concerns of Israel. One of your questions when you meet Israelis is, talk to me about the Gaza war. Let's think through, you know, is that what is okay, what isn't okay? You don't give Israelis a pass, But for some reason, in the Democratic Party, there's this willingness to question whether this country has a right to exist. And that's the strange thing.

That's the silly thing. By the way, that's the thing that I argue doesn't help Palestinians all that much because on the question of the war, you can come to Israel with complaints. But if you make it a debate about whether they get to exist, they're not going to listen to you. So why does your perspective have such a hard time gaining traction in the Democratic Party? You know, I had a colleague who I have a colleague who made a brilliant observation to me. He said that Israel should be the darling of the progressive movement, given the stated priorities of the American progressive movement. So what does the American progressive movement care about? He cares about universal health care.

Israel has a single payer system. It cares about campaign finance reform. Israel has public financing of campaigns. It cares about the Green New Deal. Well, there's no country on earth that has more green innovation per capita than the state of Israel. And so Israel embodies the priorities, the ideals of the progressive movement. And yet it's become anathema to progressives in American politics. And, you know, the question of why am I more empathetic and sympathetic, you know, I've thought about Israel for about, I've been traveling to Israel for 10 years.

I've been thinking and writing and speaking about the subject for 10 years. I'm by no means an expert, but I've engaged deeply with the subject. And so the opinions that I've arrived at are the product of a decade-long process of reflection, whereas I find that most people in politics rush to pass judgment on Israel without actually knowing anything about the country, anything about the historical context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and without experiencing it firsthand. In fact, there are people, some of the most vitriolic critics of Israel, refused to even go there. You know, back in the summer of 2020 in New York City, there's an organization known as the Democratic Socialist of America, which sent out a questionnaire to city council candidates.

And the final section of the questionnaire was a foreign policy section, which only had two questions. Question number one, do you pledge never to travel to Israel if elected to the city council? and question number two, do you pledge to support the boycott, divestment, and sanctions movement against Israel? So in the democratic socialist progressive worldview, it is morally permissible to travel to China, which has committed genocide against Uighur Muslims, to travel to Russia, which invaded a sovereign nation state, Ukraine, to travel to Iran, which is the leading sponsor of terrorism in the world, but travel to the world's only Jewish state, that is strictly forbidden. And for me, if that is not evidence of anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism, that I'm not sure what would be.

I want to take a dive into history. You are close with a gentleman named Clarence Jones, and I would like you to tell his story rather than me because it's fascinating, it's profound. But he is very close to Dr. Martin Luther King. And there was a debate. I don't know if literally they stood in the room and debated this, although they did debate other things between Malcolm X and Dr. King on many questions, questions of liberalism versus black nationalism and anti-colonialism as a framing of international affairs. King was pro-Israel. Probably apparently, he didn't get too detailed about it, wanted some kind of a two-state solution living with integrated and equal and all of that and really a good kind of vision for it. but certainly you thought Israel should exist, and Malcolm X was very much anti-Azeril in the anti-colonial frame.

And so there's this black American debate for many, many years in which you are, and I'm just going to say it for you to contradict it if I'm wrong, but you've come out of that discourse and out of that divide between King and Malcolm X. And I want to see if maybe we can peel away a little bit of those layers, and I'd love to hear what you think about it. So let's start with Clarence Jones, who you introduced me to. I did not actually know his name to my great shame. Clarence Jones is the greatest living American. And he should be a household name among every American, among every Jew, among every Israeli, because he's a passionate Zionist.

Clarence Jones may be the sole surviving member of Dr. King's In a Low Circle. He was Dr. King's lawyer. He co-organized. the greatest march in American history, the march on Washington. And he co-wrote the greatest speech, the I Have a Dream speech. He wrote the first six or seven paragraphs. And it just so happens that he lived in my district in Riverdale in the faithful year of 1963. And at one point he arranged for Dr. King to move into his home for a period of time leading up to the march.

and, you know, he will tell you firsthand that the Jewish contribution to the fight for civil rights was indelible. You know, he has shared with me that he was at a march. And so a number of people who were white in appearance, and he asked them, you know, why are you marching for black people, for African Americans? You know, what do you have at stake? And he said, almost invariably, he elicited the same response. I'm Jewish and I'm here to honor the memory of my parents or grandparents who were survivors or victims of the Holocaust. That was almost invariably the response. And so, you know, Clarence Jones is so indebted to the Jewish community for its invaluable contributions to the struggle for civil rights, African-American civil rights, that he has dedicated the final chapter of his life.

to improving black Jewish relations in the United States. He's the chair of a non-for-profit that feels strongly about black Jewish solidarity. And for me, it's a tragedy that he is largely unknown to most Americans and to most Jewish Americans and to most African-Americans. He should be a household name because he was part of the greatest movement for human rights,

the greatest moral revolution in the history of the United States. I want to go specifically First of all, he is, as you say, he's going around now to his sits on conferences. First of all, how old is he's in his 90s? I believe he's 95, and his birthday is only one week apart from Dr. King's. He is on panels speaking with perfect clarity and talking about Israel and talking about the importance of the alliance with Israel. And it feels to me, I want to suggest, that it's almost a vocabulary for a debate with, in Black America. I'm stepping way out of my comfort zone just to say that the conversation

about Zionism is a conversation about liberalism versus a loss of faith in that liberalism. Dr. King talked about Zionism in very broad strokes terms. The Jews are going to, you know, they're a democracy. They've got to be a democracy, by the way. They need a place of their own. They suffered, et cetera. And on the other side of that debate in the black community, the larger ideological debate, cultural debate, maybe it was. You have Malcolm X, who in 1964 wrote an article, a short pamphlet called Zionist Logic. He published it in the Egyptian Gazette, in which he said Zionism is European colonialism in Africa and Asia. It is Western nations using Israel as a foothold. It is all the stuff that you hear out of PLO ideology. And he really framed Israel as a colonialist project, which means two things. One, obviously it's illegitimate, but two, it is destroyable. And therefore, he fundamentally, like other colonialist projects. And so he supported this theory that Israel is like Algeria.

1964, when he wrote it, was the same year the founding of the PLO after the Algerians managed to kick out the French colonialist project in Africa. So in the black community in America, you see it through the nation of Islam, but you see it in also just mainstream black intellectuals. There is this profound skepticism of Israel. and there's a part of the black community that actually feels much more liberal and Israel is less of something that they are opposed to.

And the divide correlates very well also to how they think of America, how they think of the American promise, how they think of the future of the black community in America and the potential of America to be, to fulfill the promise that it made, as King put it. Do you have a sense of that? In other words, that's what it looks like outside to my,

let's call it, Jewish perspective. Is there a divide in the black community? Is that a legitimate, reasonable framing of that divide? Is it a vocabulary for something much larger? I feel like what you described as a debate within the black community mirrors a larger debate on the American left, on the Western left. There is a divide between leftist and liberals. you know, there are leftists to embrace the ideology of Franz Fanon, who advocates, you know, decolonization through violence. And then there are liberals who advocate for, who embrace the ideology of Dr. King, who espoused passive resistance and nonviolent resistance.

And I have found that just like Zionism and Americanism are closely intertwined, anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism are closely intertwined. You know, I feel there are three stories of America. There's the far-left story of America is nothing but a system of oppression. America is nothing but racism and white supremacism. and colonialism and imperialism, and those who embrace the far-left story tend to gravitate not only toward anti-Americanism, but also anti-Zionism. You know, there's the far-right story of America as, you know, America was once a great country

in the 1950s, and we have to revert back whitewashing the genuine oppression of African-Americans, right? And a liberal Democrat like me rejects both the far-left story and the far-right story and embraces Dr. King's story of America, that America is not perfect, but it is perfectable. It is a more perfect union. The essence of America has never been perfection. It has been progress.

And the same can be said of Israel. And so, you know, if you embrace America as a more perfect union, as I do, as Dr. King did, then you naturally gravitate not only toward Americanism or towards Zionism. You see Israel as a more perfect union. Israel as a liberal democracy that is striving to perfect itself. My point is, you know, tell me your story of America, and I can tell you your story of Israel.

Yeah. I find that the two are inextricably bound together. There are some astonishing Gallup polls that have come out after the election that ask voters if they are, if they perceive themselves ideologically or politically to be closer to Harris or closer to Trump in the immediate aftermath of the campaign of the election. and they were most voters, the median American voter was closer to Trump. And this is something I draw from internal debates of Democrats and critical Democrats, that it's a party that has appeared to abandon the interests of the working classes. It's a party that has taken a story linked to this story of whether there is an American promise or whether everything is structures of power that diminish people and dehumanize.

entire classes of people, and that's the story of America. It's a party that has become a party that does not actually pursue agendas that are relevant to the working class anymore. These are Gallupol saying people perceive this in huge numbers. You're a critic of the Democratic Party, who is deep, deep within the actual ideals and idealism and politics of the Democratic Party. What happened in November? How did the Democrats lose more than anyone predicted that I have read?

Well, in the immediate aftermath of the 2024 election, I publicly said Donald Trump has no greater friend than the far left, which is alienating growing numbers of working class Americans with absurdities like defund the police or Latin acts or open borders or free Palestine from the river to the sea, we fell out of touch with the working class. We became the party, not of the working class, but of college-educated elites

in places like Columbia University. For me, the great achievement of Donald Trump lies not in breaking the blue wall in the industrial Midwest. His greatest achievement lies in breaking the blue wall in places like New York. He made historic inroads among Latinos, African Americans,

Asian Americans, Jewish Americans, historically loyal constituencies of the Democratic Party. Can you give us a sense of the scale? New York was the largest tilt in the country. So no state saw a greater swing toward Donald Trump than New York. He won 40% of the vote in New York, which is astonishing because New York is one of the bluest states in the country. And, you know, take as an example, my congressional district,

which historically has been the blueest. county in America, the Bronx. In 2012, 96% of the voters in the Bronx cast their ballots for Barack Obama. Wow. Flash forward to 2024, there's a more than 20 points swing toward Donald Trump. Donald Trump made more gains among Dominicans in the South Bronx than even among Orthodox Jews in Riverdale. Why is that? In other words, because it's a party of elites, but let's drill down. working class, Dominican immigrants in the Bronx, you yourself come from this community, Puerto Rican, African American. What's going, what do these people see in Donald Trump?

In other words, if I'm a Democrat, and I'm not, I'm a foreigner with a keen interest, but if I'm an American and I, a Democrat, and I'm looking at this, and I'm saying, well, are those Dominicans crazy? Are those Dominican silly? Even if you argue that Kamala Harris isn't enough or there's an elitism problem, the Democratic Party, why go? to Trump, what is that thinking? Let's assume voters are smart, which is always the correct assumption. What is that thinking? Look, if I had to boil it down to two issues, inflation and

immigration, right? We saw the highest inflation in more than four decades. And so if you are paying double or triple the cost for gasoline and groceries, you're going to punish the party in power. and Kamala Harris came to represent the party in power and administration that had become deeply unpopular. So inflation is the primary explanation, but just as potent is immigration. So since 2022, we saw an overwhelming flow of migration, which had an impact not only at the board, but in cities like New York, which was overwhelmed, you know, where migration, there was a massive wave of migration that overwomened. The shelter system and the social safety net and the finances of cities like New York.

New York spent $10 billion over the course of three years on the migrant crisis, which was staggering. Just on illegal immigration. On managing the migrant crisis, yes. $10 billion. And it provoked widespread outrage from the voters of New York. In December of 2023, there was a poll. There was a poll showing that 85% percent. of New Yorkers were concerned about the impact of the migrant crisis on the city of New York.

And I found that the backlash was particularly pronounced among Latinos. So, you know, the American people are allergic to what it takes to be incompetence. And my honest assessment is that we in the Democratic Party were incompetent at managing the migrant crisis. and the American people punished us for it. What does it take to get back? What does it take for the Democratic Party to rebuild? Can it rebuild? We're seeing a whole lot of excuses.

We're seeing a lot of people not actually seriously addressing these deep questions. I feel like we have to focus on the issues that matter. What people, most Americans want the basics, an affordable cost of living, safe streets, secure borders, like we should focus on the basics and ignore the fashionable nonsense, ignore the luxury beliefs. So when I'm examining campus antisemitism is evident to me that there is a correlation between the level of anti-Semitism and the elitism or the expense of a college or university. Right. So you'll find that the colleges that have seen the most folks,

volcanic eruptions of campus anti-semitism tend to be elite colleges like Columbia. Whereas, you know, I represent community colleges like Hostos, like Bronx Community College. There's not a single anti-Semitic incident at those colleges because these are community colleges where the students are working people, often single mothers, who are balancing education with employment, and who do not have the luxury of protesting at an encampment and calling for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. They actually have to pay the bills. They actually have to raise children.

They actually have to hold a job. They don't have the luxury of believing, you know, free Palestine from the river to the sea. Or disrupting. You know, God forbid that somebody's beliefs should not be expressed. They should express them. but the disruption of classes is something, why don't they see it? Why doesn't the Democratic Party?

Why don't the activists? Why don't people whose entire ideology is built on this question of class, on this question of power and privilege? If that's your framing of the world and only the rich are doing it and all the poor are suffering and they tilt by the greatest margin in the history of New York State to Trump suddenly, why are they still struggling with the idea that maybe they really screwed this up? Maybe they really missed. Isn't this all they are?

In other words, this seems to be a violation of their own claim to their own political agenda and identity and purpose and ideology. How did they not see that gap? It's human nature to see what you believe rather than believe what you see. And, you know, keep in mind that, you know, movements like Free Palestine are not simply an ideology, but it's an identity. It's a business. And if you're deeply invested in it, you're going to cling on to it at all cost.

I spent a couple of days in Miami this week, and I met Jews there who had left New York recently. And they told me that Miami is filling with Jews leaving New York. And not just Jews, but many, the Jews, I think, tend to go to my own. Miami, the nuns just tend to go to Texas. I understand there are different migration waves to different kinds of communities and places. I don't understand all of it.

But the exit is from New York has now become measurable. I actually Googled it because I didn't believe them that Miami was filling with Jews from New York. Apparently, it is. New York is suffering terribly from these ideologies from a party that can't see the very things that you're describing. And they truly shocked me that they can't see it. But New York really is suffering. You represent New York. So tell me a little bit about New York falling apart.

Is that too strong? New York is not falling apart, but there's a sense in which the political establishment is managing the decline in New York, rather than leading New York forward. You know, as I said earlier, no state saw a greater swing toward Donald Trump than New York. And that, to me, was not a coincidence. That was a consequence of popular discontent with state. and local government. The majority of New Yorkers feel we're heading in the wrong direction. We feel we're paying more and more for less and less.

Our quality of life, our affordability, our public safety are all declining. Our taxes and costs are rising. You know, in 2015, the New York state budget was $142 billion. 2025, it's $252 billion. You will not meet a single person in New Yorker. who has seen a $110 billion improvement in the delivery of government services, quite the opposite. And over the next 20 years, New York is projected to lose 2 million people. And in the United States, the loss of population means the loss of political power.

It means the loss of political power in Congress, the loss of political power in the electoral college. And so it does feel like we're out of crossroads. You know, a wise person one said, you can do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. And so we have a choice. We can either double down on a broken system and manage decline of the empire state or we can usher in a new generation of leadership. That's committed to fixing what is broken. I'm not clear what I will ultimately decide to do. But, you know, if I, whether I run for governor or remain in Congress, no matter what I decide, I hope to be the face and voice of a movement to return democratic politics to a rational center on issues like Israel,

Israel, anti-Semitism, public safety, the full gamut. Israel right now feels that there's a ticking clock. They have the Trump period to hopefully put together a normalization with the Saudis. The Democrats that come back into the White House, maybe in four years, maybe in eight, will be much less willing to, well, more arguably not just willing to strike a deal with Iran, but pro-Iran. Not just critical of Israel, but anti-Israel. There's a fear that the Democratic Party is swinging. The younger generation is more so than the current one.

And Israel's become a profoundly partisan issue. And so this is a question that Israelis are asking. And of course, more importantly for you, the Americans are asking, obviously, but I'm asking it, I guess, in the name of Israelis. Can the Democratic Party pivot? If we take seriously the contention that you believe I share that the relationship to Israel is a bellwether, a signal of many other ideas about America itself.

Are the Democrats not so far down that road that that that that battleship or what are they called the aircraft carrier isn't turning around? Can you turn it around? Can you have a new generation that that given that we know that young people are, you know, fed on who grew up on TikTok and you were involved in the legislation on TikTok, young people grew up on TikTok are more so, more in the problematic side than the older generis. Can that Democratic Party be saved in that sense on those issues? I see the political landscape differently. The narrative that the Democratic Party is monolithically anti-Israel and the Republican Party is monolistically pro-Israel is more of a caricature than a fair characterization of the political reality.

in Washington, D.C. You know, the Democratic Party is by no means a monolith. You know, it ranges from anti-Zionists like Rashida Tili to stoward Zionists like John Faderman and myself. So we're a widely varied coalition. That's hardly a monolith on the subject of Israel. But at the moment, the majority of congressional Democrats remain for Israel. The majority of congressional Democrats voted

for the National Security Supplemental, which appropriated more money for Israeli self-defense than any legislation enacted in American history. And that should count for something. And I would submit to you that, just like support for Israel can be bipartisan, opposition to Israel can be bipartisan. That the U.S. relationship faces challenges

not only from the anti-Zionism of the far left, but increasingly from the America-first isolationism of the far right. embodied by the likes of Tucker Carlson. And, you know, there are Republicans who are willing to gerrymander their isolationism to exempt Israel. But the question is, how long will that gerrymander last? You know, I feel like if you're willing to abandon Ukraine to the benefit of Russia and abandon Taiwan to the benefit of China, it's only a matter of time that you abandon Israel to the benefit of

the Islamic Republic of Iran. You know, America first isolationism is no threat of the U.S. Israel relationship. Israel thrives in a world where the United States is the leader of the free world. And if we withdraw from leadership of the free world, we're creating a vacuum that's going to be filled by the likes of Russia, China, North Korea, Iran. We're going to see the rise of an anti-American access to the detriment. of Israel's security. And so I have a much more nuanced view of the political reality in Washington, D.C., than the

prevailing narrative. And tell me about Israel. In other words, a lot of Democrats have a sense that the Israeli government has that sort of monopartisan view, very much doubling down to putting all its chips on the Republicans giving up on the Democrats, making it hard for Democrats to support Israel politically. Why make it hard? You know what I mean? It seems so counter to Israel's own interests. Have you experienced that? Do you feel that? What is your criticism? First politically and then substantively, in other words, on Israeli policy, what do Democrats, Democrats who support Israel

profoundly and over the long term, for larger reasons than Israel itself, like you, what do you need from Israel? How is it failing you, if it is? And what do the rest of the Democratic Party need from Israel? And how is it failing them? Well, I do get the distinct impression that the Israeli government engages far more with Republicans and Democrats. I mean, I'm one of the leading Zionists in the United States Congress. I've not met Israeli ambassador to the United States. There's been no outreach to my office. I don't take it personally. But it seems to me that the government should be engaged with members of both parties. that to me is shocking.

There's a new ambassador close to the prime minister. They haven't reached out to Richie Torres? Not that I know of. But again, my Zionism does not depend on outreach. Like, I'm going to believe what I believe. I'm going to fight for what I believe Nevada. No, I know, but I'm a taxpaying citizen of Israel. And I'd like to know my government is slightly competent.

So that's important for me. I get the distinct impression that the Israeli government under the president administration is much more at home with Republicans and with Democrats. And it's evident. What would it need to do? Let's say it is. Let's say it's written them off. Let's say, you know, there's supporters of this Israeli government who talk about Joe Biden after he did tremendous things. I've criticized Joe Biden.

I think he helped us a lot tactically, but strategically actually, you know, loosened the reins on. Iran and many other problems. The criticism aside, there was tremendous support for Israel and they navigated a very complicated domestic political situation in order to continue supporting Israel at key moments. Is Israel being foolish on the larger strategic questions? Being partisan, willing to be partisan, what would Israel need to do talking about two states? I don't know. What would that look like? What would an Israel that wants to hold onto the Democratic Party or give the Democratic Party a reason to support them politically, okay, not just the Pentagon figuring out who's a good ally, but politically able to support them. What would that kind of

Israel need to do? What would you want to see? There needs to be a recognition within the Israeli government that the U.S. Israel relationship has historically been built on a better rock up bipartisanship. Like the United States is a two-party system. it will remain a two-party system. And there is no such thing as a one-party strategy within a two-party system. The notion that the U.S.-Israel relationship can survive the loss of the support of a major political party is dangerously delusional. Like, if you're pro-Israel, if you're genuinely pro-Israel, you want Israel to succeed no matter who's in power, no matter who controls the presidency and who controls Congress.

bipartisanhip is the ultimate insurance policy against the vicissitudes of American politics. And if you are abandoning bipartisanship or giving the impression of abandoning bipartisanship, then you're planning the seeds of the decline of the U.S. Israel relationship. That's how I view it. I want to end with two quick questions

that are the same question. One, are you optimistic for the turnaround of the Democratic Party? and two, are you optimistic on the U.S. Israel relationship going forward, even if the Middle East doesn't get any nicer? I am optimistic because I have no choice to be optimistic. If I thought it were pointless, then I would have no business being in Congress and I would have no business fighting for causes like the U.S.S. relationship. But it's a real fight, and there are battles that we've won and there are battles that we've lost. but the fight for the soul of America and the fight for the U.S.

relationship is far from finished. It's going to be, it's going to be one of the dominant trends of American politics. And the Democratic Party itself? It's an ongoing fight. You know, there is a fight for the soul of the Democratic Party between traditional Democrats like myself and Democratic Socialists. And the Democratic Socialists. Socialists are strategic enough to recognize that there's never going to be a viable third

party in American politics. And so their goal is to take over the Democratic Party from within, impose ideological litmus test on issues like Israel, and then cleanse the party of anyone who fails those litmus tests. And I've often observed that the DSA seeks to be to the Democratic Party in American politics, what Jeremy Corbyn became to the Labor Party in British politics. and the burden falls on pro-Israel Democrats like myself to actively resist the Jeremy corporatization of progressive politics in the United States. That didn't work out well for labor in Britain.

Well, that's the lesson of history. Any society that embraces anti-Semitism will ultimately rot from within, and America is no exception. Thank you so much, Richie Torres, for your time. I take your word seriously and I'll make sure that that's in the inbox of some Israelis or need to hear it. For me, as a taxpaying Israeli. As long as I'm in touch with Habibretti Gore, that's all that matter.

Everything's going to be fine. Thank you so much. Take care. All right. Bye.