Aspire with Emma Grede - Aspire with Bozoma Saint John: Why Playing Small Is Sabotaging Your Success (and How to Stop)

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

In this electrifying sit-down, marketing powerhouse Bozoma Saint John tells Emma Grede how trusting her gut—and refusing to shrink—propelled her from a junior assistant’s cubicle to the C-suite, and now to founding the hair-care disruptor, Eve by Boz. She unpacks why “excellence is a baseline” was the mantra drilled into her by her Ghanaian parents, shares the exact language she used to claim credit without apology, and explains why ditching a rigid five-year plan unlocked once-in-a-lifetime opportunities. Boz dives deep on separating ego from intuition, funding a factory in Ghana to center Black women in a $7-billion industry, and spotting the storytelling through-line that ties every bold career move together. If you’re ready to amplify your voice, own your wins, and make audacious moves, this conversation is your playbook—hit subscribe, and share it with someone who needs a confidence boost today. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Seasite for details. Bose, welcome to aspire. My pleasure to be here. I am so happy to have you here, honestly. Just the very sight of you makes me happy with that smile and like the whole thing. I'm in my Bowes look today with the sequence and the color. Because we know I don't like sequence and color. But we're matching in our sequence and color.

Yes, we are. Well, you usually do. I do. I do. Thank you. You are just a bright, shining soul. I'm a human sequence. Literally.

Of all the compliments to start with. There you go. That's it. I love it. I want to jump straight in because something that we talk about in business all the time is excellence. And what I read about you and your childhood was that excellence was just the expectation. There was no middle. There was no okay.

And so I kind of want you to take me back a little bit and talk to me about your childhood, your upbringing, but mostly how that relates to who you are and how you come into the world today. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, that's great. I mean, I love starting there because I like to start with DNA. You know, and I think I have... It's important. Yeah, I do have excellent DNA. My parents are exceptional human beings.

And neither of them... They must be so happy to hear you say something like that. Well, I think they expect me to say that. That's where all this comments... If my dad was here, he'd be like, yes, she is right. Excellent answer. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, she'd be like, yep, that's true. But I think they're excellent, not just because they're compassionate and good people,

but because they overcame so much, you know, and didn't, really have anyone to tell them to excel. Yet they did. And yet they did. Yeah. My dad is a orphan, you know, who was orphaned at 14 from this small little place on the very western border of Ghana. The statistics about whether or not he should have succeeded in life or they don't exist. But yet he came out of that situation, earned two PhDs, raised four daughters who are all exceptional people. And you were raised here, right, in America? Yeah, I was born in Connecticut. I was born in Connecticut. Right. But my dad is a pan-Africanist and wanted to go back to the continent as soon as he received its education. I think at that time, late 60s, early 70s, most people who

immigrated for education would just stay and build their life in whatever country they went to, whether it was America or Europe. And he was like, I've got my education, I'm going back. And so he became a professor at the university. He went into politics. But then unfortunately, there was a coup, a coup d'a in Ghana in the early 80s. And that's how we left. And what did that mean for you and your family? Well, it was an uprooting, right? Because like I said, my parents are pan-Africanist. They love Africa. They want to help uplift Africa. And so for them, the coup meant a disruption of that. It meant that they couldn't actually be in the country that they wanted to be in. And so we came to the U.S. and political asylum. And we're here for a few months.

And then my dad was like, nope, back to Africa, we go. But we went to the other side of the continent, to Kenya. And we're there for a few years. And by that point, the political situation Ghana had settled down. And so we went back to Ghana. But by that point, it wasn't the same, you know, for my dad. And he decided that, okay, well, you know, maybe his talents aren't there, but he could use them in the U.S.

And that's how we settled back in the U.S. when I was 12. 12 years old. Yeah. And what about your mother at this stage? Oh, my mother. Because I know you're so close. to your mom. Oh, yes, very, very close to my mom. She's a homemaker, a chosen one, because she is a fashion designer by trade and always had a little boutique, you know, in our house. And she would, is that

where you get it all from us? Oh, yes, yes. Certainly my stylist and my mother. No one would argue with that. My dad wouldn't argue with that, you know. But she, you know, she made couture. And so it was, and not with patterns. You know, she took measurements and design, then cut fabrics. And so, So like that cut of a fabric for the small, you know, sort of quiet whir of a sewing machine are my earliest memories. And she would make everything. I mean, she made my prom dresses, you know, she made my wedding dress. We both designed it. That's amazing.

That's amazing. What did you learn from your parents? Oh, gosh. Well, look, my parents are immigrants. At the end of the day, that's what they are. They've been nomadic, not by choice. by situation. And for me, I think there's a number of things that has taught me, one, compassion, you know, for people who come from different walks of life, who, you know,

sometimes have to change their situation in order to make themselves better or make their families better. And having compassion for that. They've also taught me the power of understanding that it doesn't matter what your circumstances are, that excellence should be expected of your life, you know, not just of like how you are, but just of your life. You knew that from a young age? From a young age. How old? Oh, God.

I don't know that there's a time I didn't know that. Yeah, and it's interesting you say that. I feel like you either have raised like that and you know it intrinsically. It's innate. Or it comes to you like much later in life, like in your career. But I feel like the same for me. It was like, there is no choice but for you to be the best. Yes.

And my mom didn't care what it was that I decided to do, but she's like, you better be really, really good at it. Yeah. And here's the thing. I think there is, there is. there is another layer to my understanding, which isn't even just so much that I need to be the best. That was just out the gate. That was not anything that you could argue.

You have to be the best. But it wasn't just that. It was that your life will be the best. Your life will be excellent. And so you approach life that way. You don't approach life like, oh, woe is me and this situation is terrible and I've got to rise above it.

That was not the understanding. The understanding is that your life and not your present life, your future life. And then it was your responsibility to make it happen? No, how did you contextualize that as a kid? No, your life has to be excellent. Your responsibility was to be the best in your life. Right.

But the understanding was that your life is going to be the best. So you should act that way. You should behave that way. Yes. You should walk into room. Come to expect it. Yes, come to expect that the world is going to conspire in your best interest. And so even when bad things happen to you, know that they are for eventually you're good.

And so there is no complaining. There is no sitting down. and being like, oh, I can't believe this happened to me today. It's like, okay, well, this happened to you today, but it's probably for your benefit, so you should figure out how that's going to be great for you. I mean, honestly, your career reads like, I mean, I don't even understand. It's like a Fortune 500 roll call, you know, from Apple to Pepsi to Beats to Uber.

Like, it's so unbelievably extraordinary. And I wonder if, like, you knew that that was the type of career you were going to have. Oh, no, no, no, no. I'd never planned. for this career. What do you mean you never planned? No, I didn't. And I think perhaps that's the surprise of it all. It's a surprise to me too, by the way. Get out of it. No, seriously. You can't tell me that because I'm the most planned person on the planet. What do you mean you never planned? You are not planned? I am absolutely not planned. There's no strategy to this career you've built. There is no

strategy. No, I didn't, I didn't start. Get out. No, I did not. No, I don't, I don't mean. You had that type of career and there was no planning involved. No, no planning of that. And currently, I don't have a five-year plan. I don't have a five-year plan. I don't I don't have a 10-year plan. I don't even have a year plan. No, I don't. I know. I know. That's like causing you like to like, you're like, you're going to start a ball to get any moment. No, but I don't have a plan. I don't have a plan. So how did this, so let's actually, because you, you know, I reel off those companies like it's nothing. But we're talking about the best at the best at the best. And you held the highest position. Yeah. In what you do in marketing, chief marketing officer at many of these companies. So how did this happen? Like I'm, I feel like

There's going to be so many people listening to this podcast that would be like, I would love to have that type of career. So coming from where you come from, believing what you did, how did you find yourself in those positions? Well, here's the thing is that I think part of the reason why this has happened or is happening is that there are many moments of like the sliding doors. You know, there's a film in the late 90s. So good with Glenn. with Gwyneth Coulthrow sliding doors. I love that. I love that film.

It was so good. The difference for me from that film is that, you know, sometimes when you think a sliding door is like, okay, you have like two choices and you go this way and something happens, you go this way, something else happens. My belief system is that it's not as whether it was right or wrong. It's just different. And so it doesn't, that's why I don't stress out about decisions.

You know, it's like, oh, you've got to do this. I don't make phone call on because of that reason. You're going to make a decision and then make it right? Like, is that how you think about it? I'm going to make the decision and then it's going to work. It's the way I approach everything. Well, it's how you were raised. Yeah.

Right? And so for me, it's not like, you know, when people stress out or like I have friends who call me and just like, what should I do? Should I accept this job? Should I not? Like, should I move to this place? Should I go on the date with this person? Like, they stress out about these ideas. And I'm just like, but why I stress out about it?

There is no wrong answer. Go. And trust that your destiny will meet you there. Like, trust that. where did that come from? Do you feel like that, like, has that been your experience? That has been my experience and it's also proven. And so I think sometimes it's very difficult to have a theory

and then just go with it without proof. But I'm like, look, it's proven itself again and again and again. So why would I not believe that? Why would I live my life any differently? Did you choose marketing or did you feel like it chose you? No, it definitely chose me. I for sure fell into it. But I think that, again, that sort of life and the way that I am supposed to be in this life was there all along for marketing.

I just didn't know that. And so when I was in high school, and probably even earlier than that, I was just really good at science and math. You know, I was one of those kids who just, I got it easily. It wasn't a problem. I studied very hard. But I didn't have a challenge with those topics. But I loved pop culture, not because I found it particularly interesting, but I needed it for survival. So when I moved...

What do you mean by that? Well, when my family moved to Colorado Springs, Colorado when I was 12, we were coming straight from Ghana, right? Having had this very diplomatic and political and academic life in different countries... Yeah, coming from a totally different culture. Yeah, and I come to a city where most people, if they are, you know, with the military, so either Air Force or Army, they've maybe moved around, but they were held to, like, U.S. standards,

or people who were born and raised in Colorado Springs and never left. And so it wasn't like I was coming into a place of, you know, people who were cosmopolitan. And that's not shade against anybody. It's just the reality of what it was. Did you feel otherwise? Did you feel like this is like these are not my people? Yeah, yeah. It certainly felt other.

Yeah. And not because I felt other, but because they made me feel like I was other. You know, I've been in so many places where it's like I didn't speak the language or I wasn't of that culture and never felt uncomfortable in it because I knew who I was. And my parents reinforced that until I got to America. And then people were like, oh, you are different and we don't even like you. Wow. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't know what to tell you.

And what is interesting, Emma, is that there's a moment that is crystallized in my mind that I remember, like it was yesterday. It had to be maybe 13 or 14. And I was looking at myself in the mirror, getting ready for school. And trying to understand, like looking at myself deeply and contemplating, why don't they like me? You couldn't understand it. I couldn't understand it. Because I was like, I'm so amazing. No, seriously.

I remember this moment, like, looking at myself and being like, they make fun of my hair, they make fun of my face, like, they make fun of my skin. And you didn't have that exceed self-doubt into you. You weren't like, maybe my hair, maybe my- No, no, no, no. I just thought there was something wrong with them. Because I was like, I don't understand. Because I was looking at myself and thinking, but I'm so dope.

And I really thought that at 13. That's incredible. I was just like, I know it. And they don't see it. And I don't understand why. And so what I was trying to understand wasn't that like, oh, how do I change my hair? But I was thinking, how do I make them see that I'm dope? And part of that was like, look, I've got to know the things that they know and then understand them better. Were you into the things that they knew? Like, did you get to America and go like, wow, this popular culture thing is like popping off here. This is incredible this place. No, I loved it. I have always. loved music and fashion and sports and politics and gossip and social things.

Like, I have always, all of it. I've always loved all of it. And so for me, you know, trying to understand why it is that they saw me differently, it became academic. You don't have to really understand, okay, well, what is this culture about? Why does everybody in Colorado Springs love the Denver Broncos? Okay, I need to understand American football. Yeah.

You know, why do they love, you know, Paula Abdul? Got to understand pop culture. music in that way. You know, why is it that they're wearing three socks stacked up against each other? You know, what kind of fashion is that? You know, but like... Did you stack the socks? I certainly did.

Yeah, I rolled up my sleeves and all that. Yes. I wore my hair with the bangles off, pull out like the whole thing. You know, so for me, it became academic, like, feeling like, look, I've got to understand what it is that they like so I can talk to these people and understand them. And so pop culture to me was academic. It became something for survival in that I needed it so that they didn't see me as so strange. But at this point, you're not putting it together that I'm interested in pop culture and so there's a career out here for me in marketing.

Not at all. That doesn't happen. That doesn't even happen for me in college. That happens after college. So what's your first job? Very first job like in high school. AT&T, telephone operator. Okay.

Yeah, I was 16. It was great. They're like, hello, this AT&T? You never forget those jobs. You never forget those jobs. They're so formative. And I think also because, you know, again, this is where now I can look back and be like, all these things were like building up, right?

Because it was mostly people who were trying to call their family outside of the U.S. And needed somebody to connect them. Of course, now in today's culture, nobody understands it. No, they connect. But it's like you needed to call the operators connect you to your international family. And so most of the people I was talking to had very. heavy accents or, you know, we're trying. I'm over here, like, looking at all the area codes and being like, what's the country code for that? And then the city code and then dialed

the number, I was doing that. And to think about it now, where it's like, that's what I do is connect people to things, to brands, you know? And it's like, how would I have known that it's 16, my very first job. How would you have known? Would even, like, connect to what I'm doing now? Which is wild. Yeah. So what was the first time that you understood, okay, I'm going to be in marketing. Like this is something that's for me now. Yeah. So I had graduated from undergrad as a pre-med major. I took the MCAT. Were your family thrilled when you were. Oh my god. They were so annoyed. My dad was like, oh, we're going to have a doctor. I'm sorry. What is going to do now? Exactly. Right. But I had, I had graduated. I had tried to find every excuse not to go to

med school just yet. It wasn't that I didn't want to go. I was just like, I don't want to go right now. Yes. Good choice. And so I decided to move to New York on my own. How old are you at this point? I knew one person. God, I was 22. Okay. A sensible age to leave the family. Exactly. Well, I'm like, me. I was like 15. I'm like, I'm out of here. My mom's like good luck. I mean, look, I had the benefit of having left for college across the country. So I didn't go to school near my family. Got it. Very sensible. And after the first summer, I never came back. Right. You know, I was just like, no. So you were already out on your own and you're like, I'm moving to New York.

Yeah, I'm out of here. This feels like a place. And why New York, you were like, this is where it's all happening. Yeah, it just seemed exciting. Yeah. You know, I didn't have a real reason. I just, but funny enough, my dad says that like when I was like four or five, I always said I wanted to live in New York.

Which was weird because we didn't know anybody anymore. Nobody knew anybody in New York. No, you don't know anyone anywhere than where you're from. Exactly. My family are from here and we live here. That's it. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I moved there and I knew one person who had gone to my college and she was getting a master's in film. And so I made a deal with her and her roommate. I said, look, if you let me sleep on the couch, I'll cook. Right? But you all buy the groceries because I don't have no money. I was like, you know what, let me do some. Girl, okay, look. So I was doing odd jobs, you know, attempt jobs to make money and just to survive. And then, again, I feel like, you know, Destiny met me where I was standing, which is on the corner of a hundred street, Fifth Street, and Broadway, right, in Harlem. And I got the call, or I called into my temp agency that morning. It says, Spike Lee had fired his assistant.

And he did somebody come answer the phone. Do you know if Spike Lee was? Yeah, I definitely knew who Spike Lee. Yes. And I also, by the way, I also knew that the only reason they said I should go is because I was probably the only black person. 100%. But you're like, this is it.

And I was like, fantastic. You're like, I'll be there. You know? I'll take me and my black ass straight up to that job. 100%. And so I rolled up there in this really terrible gray suit with my hair pulled back on a tight bun, pearls in my ear. thinking I looked extraordinarily professional.

Very assistant-like. And I sat at the front desk. I came early, you know, before Spike and I came and sat waiting for the phone to ring. It wasn't ringing, but I was sitting there ready in case it did. And Spike walked in and he takes one look at me and he's just like, he's like, God damn it, they sent me Miss America. And I looked at him and I was so, again, like, offended and confused. And I literally was just like, wait, why don't you see me?

You know, I was like, I am well-educated. I am a pre-med major. But you don't say this. You're thinking this. You're thinking this. But it is on my face because I do not have a poker face. We know. So he's standing there looking at me and I'm looking at him.

And there's not a word happening in the agency. And he just turns around and he goes into his office. And I'm sitting there like, well, that was rude. That was rude. And that was not the first meeting that you wanted. No, of course not. Because we have our things. Like you're ready to.

to say something really smart and to impress him and then to it. No, no. But the thing I did notice was that he was walking around with a something under his arm. And I obviously I knew as a director. So I assumed there was a script. So when he came out of his office again, I was like, what were you carrying earlier? And he was like, a script for my new film. And I was like, can I read it?

And he was like, okay. The receptionist. The receptionist. The temp, the temp. The temp, not even permanent. The temp. And, you know, there were a few chuckles. Did he say yes?

Yeah. Oh, wow. And he gave it to me and, you know, it's like, you were seen in that moment? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But I took it. Because I'll be like, this is confidential.

No, you can't see it. No. He was just like, he was like, sure, read it. And so I read it. I took a red pen to it. It's, by the way, one of his favorite stories. If you meet him and ask him, he would tell you. I took an actual red pen to the script.

I made changes in diction. I made comments about character development and I brought it back to him two days later and he was like, you did what? And literally was like, I remember the creative director's name was Desmond Hall. Okay, this was like 25 years ago. Desmond is sitting there and he's just like shaking his head.

Like, I can't believe the audacity of this girl. Dacety. You know? And I was looking at Desmond like, oh shit, I think I'm going to be fired. You know what I mean? Yep, that's what I would have. I took the script.

He went into his office and he came back out and he was like, you made some good notes, you should stay. That's when I knew. That's the moment I knew that I was like, it really doesn't matter where you're sitting. It doesn't matter who the person is, how much education they have, what their experiences are.

Because me, a completely unexperienced, 22-year-old woman who was just trying to beg for a job to eat her next lunch, had made comments on Spike Lee's film, and he thought they were good. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th,

and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at Yamavat Theater.com. Only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You in? Must be 21 to enter. The start with yourself tour kicks off on April 15th in New York City. Tickets are on sale now at emigree.com. I'm obsessed with the fact that you have had these really unbelievable roles. And so you start with Spike.

What is your first marketing role? Oh, gosh. Was it Pepsi? Yes, it is Pepsi, technically. But that came because of the recommendation I'd made to Spike about hiring Beyonce. This is it. I know this is a great story. Beyonce was not Beyonce then.

She was not. She was like Beyonce beginning. That's correct. She was actually coming out of Destiny's Child and she was being panned like universally. Really? Yeah, because people were like, there's been no like solo artist

who's come out of a girl group that succeeded except for Diana Ross. Oh, wow, that was a long time before. Correct. Yes. You know, but I saw an artist. So at this point, you're at Spikes and you decide to put Beyonce forward for something.

Yeah. Pepsi essentially. I'm still an assistant. You are an assistant. So how long did you spend with Spike? Four years. Four years. You're still an assistant.

But Pepsi see you because you make this like ball and move. You put Beyonce in the commercial and they're like her over here. Yeah. Well, because here's the thing. And I think this is actually an important note, which is that you really do have to speak up for yourself. Because it wasn't like anybody was like, oh, let's give her credit. No. No one's coming to give you credit.

No, no. No. No. In fact, quite the opposite at that point, somebody else probably needs to take credit for that Because they're being paid to do it. Yes, of course they did. You know, because it became a hit. And so the other trick is that you have to talk about yourself.

Everybody says, oh, be humble. Put your head down. Do the work. They'll find you. That is bullshit. Yeah. No one's finding you. No one finds you.

You have to advocate for yourself. You have to advocate for yourself. You have to say the words. And you have to take credit for your work. But both, talk to me about this because why I talk about this all the time. Mm-hmm. Why do people get so uncomfortable, specifically women, and I'm going to say it, specifically women with self-advocating? Why do people say, you're so full of yourself, like, you're

taking credit for X, Y, and Z, you should be, you know, humble down. Why does that happen? Well, because that's what society tells us. I mean, it's not, this is a behavior that's oldest time. You know, it happened in the Garden of Eden with Eve. You know what I'm saying? That's old. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm like, she was blamed for, like, you may sanity sins. It started there. You know, and so, yes, of course we've been told to take your, like, take a seat, be quiet. Like, be grateful for the spot that you have. And so I'm not even upset that women think that way of themselves. Of course we do. We've been trained that way. I'm just saying, wake up. I'm saying, hey, look, they lied to you. And so this idea that, like, we should be humble about our accomplishments and, you know, we'll seem like business.

if we say the thing, which is like, oh, I'm great. And when somebody compliments you and you say, I know, because you do know. So I'm sorry, why am I saying thank you for what? You know, it was like, you didn't pay me a compliment. I wasn't already aware. You should tell me something I don't know. Then I'll tell you thank you. Has this backfired for you?

Oh, of course. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because obviously there's going to be times when people have been like that. Yes. No, it happened just recently. You know, I went on Jimmy Fallon show, the Tonight Show. Oh, we saw you.

And you said, he said, you look so amazing. You're like, I do. Yes. And then he read off like my accomplishments. And I said, yes, you're correct. And people said, oh, she should be more humble. Why is she so arrogant? And I said, all I said was, I know, and you are correct.

Why has this become such a cornerstone of your brand and who you are? And why is it so important to you? Because I'm also aware that you are raising a beautiful. young, amazing daughter. And I think she shines through. I've literally seen this little girl through your social and a little bit on the show. And I'm like, it's so clear that she is so self-possessed

and she is a strong woman in the making. But I'm interested at why you've really doubled down on this. Because it's not an accident that you go around saying this all the time. It's no accident that you didn't go like, oh, thank you so much. Right, right. Jimmy, you were like, indeed, yes. Yes. I think mostly, where do I even start? It has happened to me so often where people are intentional in trying to put me down

or dim my light or make me feel like I should be in a different place. That it now is practiced that I buck against that. You know, it's like it is now a habit that it doesn't. doesn't matter what I'm doing, I must be bigger. I must advocate louder. I must be more possessed about who I am. Because if I don't do that, the ease with which people will put me in a corner is what society does every day to so many of us walking around. And we don't even know because we're so used to our chains. But I'm over here rattling that and being like, no, I won't take it. And if I don't do that, maybe I won't even see my chains. And so I've got to do that every

single day. I do it in the mirror. I do it when I'm on a Zoom call. I do it when I'm in person. I do it with my kid. I do it at the freaking volleyball game. I do it everywhere. Because the moment I stop is when somebody will try to put me down. And I refuse to let that happen. You know, it's like, I remember, I remember Emma. Oh my gosh. It was February 2014. My husband had been dead for two months. I came back from bereavement leave to have a review at work.

Timing. Yeah, I know. I have been off of work. You missed the review. Like, bring her in. Yeah. They were like, well, you need to come in because we need to put into the system before the system shuts. And I'm like, I'm grieving.

We know how these corporates work. But okay. So I come in off bereavement work to have my review. The year before had been a banner year for me in my career, meaning that was the year that Beyonce did the Super Bowl halftime show, which I worked on. I had done so many things. I'd set up the next three years of Super Bowl performances, you know, the $50 million deal that Pepsi did with the NFL. Like, I mean, it was a banner year. At the same time, half of that year, I was battling my husband's oncologists and my mother's oncologists as they both dealt with cancer. My mother survived. My husband did

not. And I come in off of bereavement leave for a review. And my boss looks at me in the face and says, you know what, Bose, you didn't hit enough home runs in this past year. And so you don't get a promotion and you don't get a race. And I was thinking, I don't know what more you do, how much more you show your brilliance. I was also thinking practically. My husband had just died at a four-year-old daughter. And I was like, I have to raise this job by myself. I'm looking down at the next 14 years until she's 18. And then for beyond that for college, I'm doing the math and saying, how do I even afford

this? Yes. I need a raise. I need a job. I need a promote. Like, I need the things. This is not even just about my ego. This is practical.

And then I went home and I cried my eyes out, girl. I cried, I cried, I cried. I said, how did they not see? How do they miss? And I realized that every time I was in a meeting when we're talking about the results, I said we all the time. We did this.

My team did this. Da-da-da-da. We, all of the time. I never said I. And so how would they know? So I didn't even really blame my boss for not seeing it because I was like, I never took credit for anything. And I'm not saying at all that you should take credit for the things you didn't do

or that like it was a team effort and you're like, I didn't say that. that. But say the things that you did do. Say the reason why you were important in the room. Yeah. And then say why the things that happened happened. Yes. And so after. And you, and you directly attributed the fact that you weren't speaking. Yeah. About yourself to the fact that you didn't get this pay rise in the promotion. I knew it. I knew it. But you also knew that that that was the time to leave. Yes. You're like, I'm moving on. Yeah. Because I knew that like, look, I spent a decade there. Yeah. And you've done all the things. And that if they didn't see me,

as the turnkey person, they were never going to see it. And sometimes that's what got to happen. You have to recognize a situation for what it is, even if it hurts. You have to say, hey, look, I can't give this another six months. And I don't care if that's a job or a relationship. It's a great piece of advice. Because I feel like so many of us get to that point in a job where you're like, one second, I'm doing the best work.

I'm really shining. I'm meeting all the results. And yet there isn't place for me to grow here. So you're like, at that point, you make a decision. Yes. You have to leave. But here's the thing. And this is really, but here's the thing. This is a hard thing, right? I'm saying it like a simply, but it's a very hard thing because it's not always obvious. Because people will say to you in your job, like, okay, give us another six months, work on this one, two thing, and then we'll see, we'll review again.

Yeah, we'll see you in the next cycle. Like, totally. Or it's like, again, I don't even just attribute to work. I think this is the behavior that happens in relationships too, where it's like, you know, you're with somebody and you want something to happen. And they're like, oh, give me another six months to figure it out. No, sir. Exactly. I'm like, get out of here with your six months.

Six months from now, I'm going to be on top of the world and you're going to be crying that you're not with me. You know what I mean? And so that's what happened to me is that I simply looked at the situation in which I was in

and said, this can no longer be my experience. If you don't want to give me a promotion, if you don't want to give me a raise, if you don't want to appreciate me, it is because of what I did. Not because of what we did.

But that's kind of radical self-responsibility. Yeah. And the risk of, you know, a lot of people disagreeing with this. But that's very counter to where we are in the culture right now. Oh, well, no? Of course. Right? No, not many people would say this is my job now to go and change this.

Yeah. I mean, I just feel like, but we need it. We need more self-possessed people. I think we would be a better society for it Because I think that Well, because again Like we've been taught that like Oh, this is community community community

But I'm like, I'm just going to take it back to my African roots Okay When you look at a village Everybody has a job A responsibility. Yes, we're a village and we're community It takes a village to raise a child We've all heard all of the quotes and the things Okay.

However, everybody has a job In the village and in the society. Not everybody is doing everything at the same time. And so if you don't do your job well, the society falls. So what makes you think that you shouldn't be standing, advocating in your role, in your space, that you are doing the thing excellently

that is going to allow for the entire community to flourish. Facts. So therefore, I'm like, we should all be self-possessed. If you're doing your job and you're doing it really well, that means this person's going to do their job and they're going to do it really well. Yeah. So that's the way we should all behave.

So what do you say to people because I'm sure you get so many people ask you, how do you start a career in marketing? What's your advice? Well, here's the challenge with marketing, which is that it's one of those careers where I do believe in the latter. You know, you have to climb it.

You have to start at the bottom. You have to learn the business. You have to have like, you know, small assignments that lead to the medium assignments, which is the large assignments, or these are the extra large assignments. You know, it doesn't, you can't come in into the top.

And so this idea that, like, you know, you're just going to come in and come up with this, like, brilliant plan is, eh, it may be. Because you have no idea about execution. Yeah. And it really takes executing, you know, and making the mistakes and realizing

that the messaging was wrong or that the target was wrong. Or, you know, it's like, ah, I could have had a funnier, faster exit or a funnier and faster entry. Like, those things are built over time. And you can't do that quickly. And so it's like if you want to create marketing, start with yourself.

Like you're the first brand. And you started with yourself. Hell yeah. Yeah. And you're finishing with yourself right now. Oh, absolutely. Well, because I also feel that this goes, you know, into the conversation we're having about advocating for yourself. It's like, look, nobody was calling me badass until I started calling myself that.

They weren't? No. You gave yourself that name? I sure did. Oh, you really do have the audacity. I do. No one gives himself a nickname. Who gives himself a nickname?

You. And you should too. I'm like, why? Why do you not do that? Yeah. I'm like, why would we do that? Yes, yes, yes. No, I just assumed someone called you that and you were like, yeah, I am.

No, no, no. I'm going to ramble with it. No, I told people that. Oh. Of course you did. Yeah. It's unsurprising after this 30 minute conversation. No, but it's true because here's the thing is that it's like, look, what is it that you're actually good at?

You know, some of this, a lot of the conversation we're having. is about self-awareness. It was like, what is the thing that you're really good at? Because you're not good at everything. I'm not good at everything. No one is. But I'm exceptional at a few things.

And then that's the stuff that you like, get it. Totally. Totally. I do think that we've also been lied to about this idea of like, you know, sort of like working on the stuff that you're not good at so that you can become more. Don't bother. It's like, be a specialist.

Be a specialist. Be a specialist. Have ruthless prioritization. Yes. Just be narrow. I mean, we spoke to Melod's, Hobbson in this podcast. And I love, I mean, we love melody.

I mean, we love it. I mean, we not love it. But she talks about having an act, like, this is like, she is a specialist. It's like she is excellent at finance. She understands finance. And from there, you get to do many, many different things. But I feel like, again, it's a little bit in the culture to be a bit of a rapist slash actor now, right?

Yeah. I only think that that happens to you when you are excellent at something. Then you have the choice as your career grows and that you get better and you get more opportunities, then you can go a bit broader. But in the beginning of your career, it's like you've got to be really excellent. I actually believe that it's like, look, there's a trait that you have that can be expressed in many different ways. That's actually the way I think about specializing.

My specialty is storytelling. That is what I am excellent at. And so it can come across in marketing. It comes across as an author. It comes across as a TV personality. I'm a storyteller. And that is what I'm going to stick to. When did you understand that about your social?

and when were you able to give yourself that labor? I think I understood that very early, actually. Because marketing is all about storytelling, right? It's telling the most compelling stories. Yes. And being able to communicate that in a myriad of ways. Exactly. Yeah. But I think I knew that about myself very early on,

but I didn't know it as a career. Probably I would say until that moment was Spike, when I could see Beyonce for who she was, you know, and be able to tell Spike that like, hey, look, this is why we should look at her because X, Y, and Z, you think. And that five second story is what then made him say, okay, you know what? I'll go watch that. Does Beyonce know this about you? Yeah. Yeah. How amazing. That's so cool. Because you worked with her for a long time after that as well. This relationship, it's a lot of deals. And Super Bowl.

Yes. I mean, absolutely insane. I feel like you've worked for such unbelievable people. And that has like a way of rubbing off on you. But they're also like, you work for a lot of founders. You work for Travis. You work for Reed. You work for Spy. You work for. I feel like there was maybe another founder in there somewhere that you worked with Jimmy. Jimmy. Jimmy at Benz. Ari Emanuel. Oh, Ari.

Yes. Ari. So many, so many. So many men. So many interesting characters. So many interesting characters. What an elegant way to put that. What did you learn from these like powerhouse men?

Oh, gosh. Well, first of all, I think at the very bottom of it, all of them are extraordinarily passionate about their thing. Mm-hmm. Not about everything About their thing The thing Passion

Passion Like real passion Like real passion Like we will scrap Mm-hmm Over this thing This one thing It doesn't matter

What I do The thing I always find that So impressive Don't you Yeah If you care so So deeply

Yeah You know And then They Surrounded themselves With people Who also Believe in their thing

Mm-hmm You know Smart Simple But smart Simple But smart Because the thing is that it wasn't necessarily just about like paying people enough money to be with you.

It was that extra sauce of like finding people who are as passionate about your thing. Maybe not more passionate, but as passionate at least. And then surrounding themselves with those people. Now everybody else who falls outside of that and as the company grows, okay, whatever. Whatever. But you're in a circle. Yes. Yes.

The people who are talking to you every day who are in your ear. who are telling you your grades or who are telling you suck must have as equal passion for the thing Oh, I couldn't agree more. That you love. Honestly, this morning, so I started my day in a big fight with my chief product officer about pricing.

And she was so passionate. What this woman doesn't know about the price of jeans, it's not worth knowing. And I just backed down because I was like, you know what? And I had to push and push and push. But it made me think, I was like, you are so good at your job

that you can fight with me. for 35 minutes about pricing. And I was like, yeah. And it just, again, it made me so happy because I was like, it's amazing that you know this much. Yes. I think you're right. It's like the people you surround yourself with, the inner circle is really important. Really, really important.

I mean, I want to talk to you about the business that you've started. And I'm so obsessed with staffing and I think it's so key. But before we move on to that, what do you think, when you think about what will guarantee a marketing moment, like a moment in culture, and you've had so many of these moments, what do you think that key, like the keys are to like crafting an incredible marketing campaign or a marketing moment are. Ooh, it probably has to start with curiosity, like deep curiosity for the moment, you know, because I think the thing that happens.

For the moment in the culture, you mean? Like the moment in the culture. Like right now. There are marketing campaigns that were so successful along my career that I can check off in that tick, tick, tick, tick, that would not work today. Yes. You know? Yes.

And there are things that are going to happen. tomorrow and in five months and in 10 years that I don't know yet. And the key to being successful in those moments is deep curiosity about what is happening right now. People always want to say, oh, what happens in five years? And that's why I don't make those plans. Yeah. Because I'm like, if you plan for that, you're going to fail, you know, because how would you know what's going to happen in five years? Very interesting. I remember in 2020, right at the start of the pandemic, I took a job, my job at Netflix, which became, I didn't know then, but was going to become my last corporate job.

Are you sure both? Yes, I'm positive. Although who knows what happens? Who knows? You don't know. You don't know, God? I don't know. Five years, maybe I changed my mind.

But I remember you do have a little bit of a plan. Girl. It's more of a feeling. It's a feeling. It's a feeling. We know that you go by your gut. But you know, the thing is that like I kept having these conversations as all these senior leaders who, yeah, everybody's panicking, right?

And they were just like, oh my God. We're going to do our flat plans that we did for three years and for five years or in the shitter because we don't know what to do. And everything is shut down and bye bye. People are waiting for two weeks. Then they're waiting for six months. And it was like, oh my God, a year is past. And it was only the people who were like, okay, what do we do today? Yeah, that won.

That won. And so my point is that, like, again, we talk about marketing. The only thing that I cut through in COVID was like the things that were ingrained in the moment. In the moment. Yes. In the moment. Yeah, COVID marketing was special. Oh, my gosh.

And let me tell you. Them days. Yeah, look, that's where you separated the goods from the grates. Ain't it the true. Yeah, because you had to be unafraid of being totally in the moment and not worrying about what happens in three months. Yes. You know, and being like, okay, well, maybe we are all outside again in three months. And maybe we're not.

But today, we are inside. We're inside. And so this is what we're going to do today. And this is the feeling. This is what we have to go on. Yes. Okay. So being, like, obsessed with the culture and the moment.

Yes. And curiosity. deep curiosity, about people, about the moment, about the product, deep curiosity, about this very moment in time and what everybody is doing

around this moment. And if you have that, you can craft anything that will win. Wishing you could be there live for the big game, soaking up the atmosphere of the crowd, but too often,

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Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. I heard you say somewhere that your ambition, how did you say this? I want to make sure that I get it right.

I think that you didn't say this. You actually said that you probably wouldn't do it all again if you repeated your career. And I wonder what your ambition has actually cost you. Ah. I mean, look, I think that, not I think, I know that I wouldn't do this all over again, not because I'm ashamed or I don't like it or that I haven't had a great time in this career, I certainly have.

But why not do something else? You know, it's like, why would I not explore a different avenue? Like if right now God came down and said, Bose, you know, you have the choice at this moment, you can retain all this information you have right now and start over. Do it again. I'd be like, no, give me something else.

And I'm going to become a prima ballerina. You know, or an Olympic, like, gymnast. I really enjoy you as both, actually. Yeah, I mean, I think it would be better. I'm like, you know what I mean? Why not? You know, I do something else. And it is, again, not because, like,

I'm not enjoying this, and I don't think I'm great at it or that I haven't at a good time, but it's just like the idea that we have so many destinies and that you're simply just choosing one and going with that is what I firmly believe. I believe I would have been great at any number of things. No doubt. Happened and it's happening. Was there a cost? Yes.

For you? Oh, for sure. Because when I got that, when I heard that, I kind of equated it with the fact that it had been so hard that you had broke so many barriers that you had, you know, completely, I guess, changed the way that we think about who gets to have those jobs, that it had been so heavy and so hard on you that you wouldn't do it again. No, no, it wasn't it. It wasn't that at all.

Because I actually think that regardless of the past, I would have had that anyway, that it would have cost me that anyway. And that's not a morbid thing for me. I think that is simply where I am, where my spirit is. and this time that I'm in, you know, that regardless if I wanted to be the prima ballerina or the Olympic gymnast that I would have had to have given up a lot. I would have had to bear the scars of like a lot of wounds. I believe that that would have been my journey anyway. Yeah. And I don't feel badly about that, actually. Have there been a lot of tradeoffs for you?

Yes. Oh, a ton of them. Some of the simple things are things that you'd probably assume, like relationships, you know, both romantic and platonic. I would say in some regard privacy and also maybe some naivete about people. Yes. About way things are. Yes. You know, that kind of. Until you're in those situations, I mean, how would you know?

Yeah. So it's like, you know, how good and how bad people can be is an innocence that sometimes I wish I still had. I don't have that because I've seen it. You've seen the other side of him. You know that. Gross. Yes.

And scary. And very scary. Very scary. Very scary. You speak about like your gut guiding you. And I wonder if your gut has ever led you wrong. No. It hasn't. Never.

I feel like as a woman, I always lean in to my gut. Yeah. But it hasn't always been exactly right. Really? Yeah. I definitely feel like there's been a couple of times. I was like, well, that decision was a little off key. But I don't know.

Like I look at you and I feel like. Yeah. Like I feel, no. I feel like more specifically for work. Sometimes I feel like I've let ego, you know, it's like I'm on a run, I'm on a tear, and I'm like, p, pown, p, pown, pown, oh shit. Like, do you know what I'm getting off more than I could chew? But, you know, my gut told me to do it.

Like I was following my, you know, I was following my intuition. I was following what I felt was the right thing to do for me. And it wasn't for whatever reason. See, now for me, I do separate like sort of my intuition, my ego and, you know, desires. Tell me how. you think about that. Well, because I don't think that desire and intuition are the same thing. No, they are knows.

You know, and ego and intuition. Those are so many layers. And intuition is so pure that it can't lead you wrong. I think sometimes what happens for us is that we do let our ego lead or our desires lead and we mask it as intuition. And it's not. And that's when you have to be honest with yourself and be like, actually, that was not my intuition. That's my ego. That was not my intuition.

That was my desire. That was not my intuition. That was my hope. Hope. Hope. That ugly, terrible thing. Hope. You know what I mean?

It's like... I believe your intuition is not that. I do believe that my intuition has often screamed at me. And I have made a different decision. But my intuition, when listened to, never has let me wrong. You ever get into one of these dream positions and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be? Of course. Yeah.

Every single one. Really? What do you mean every single one? No. No. That's the truth. Well, because they're not all. There's always something else.

There's always something. There's always something. But by the way, that doesn't mean that, like, I feel like it was the wrong thing. It was just that, like, you know, you walk in and you're just like, oh, this is going to be fantastic. And then it's like, oh, okay. Maybe not. You know what I mean? But the thing is that it's always true.

Do you, are you the type of person that goes, I'm going to change that or are you accepting of what it is and you work within it? Okay. So, again, here's a controversial thing. Give it to me. It's always about me. So what is it that I'm learning? I'm just going to... I'm like, no, but what am I learning from this thing?

You know? Look, I've been accused of a lot of things. And this, again, goes back to, like, you know, people have said that I am selfish in my jobs, you know, that I come in and that I care more about myself than the brand. And they are correct. You could say that about me all day long. All day long.

And I will never deny it. I think you have to be selfish. You have to be. What are you talking about? When people say that, like, I was always so confused. Oh, she thinks she's bigger than the brand. I am.

What are you even talking about? Like, oh, but it used to be like a huge criticism that people thought they were getting me for to be like, you know, well, you shouldn't hire her because, you know, she thinks she's bigger than the brand. She loves herself more than she loves this company. You are goddamn right. So what was your retort to that?

Like, how'd you get the job anyway? Well, because I'm the best in what I do. And I have the confidence of that. So if you want, To make this company better, you're going to hire me. And you know why I'm so good? Because I know I'm so good. That's because I put myself first, always.

And so when I'm in the job, I'm like, no, I don't think that this company is better than me. I think this company is going to teach me to make me better than I am today. And I'm going to make you better because I am in the pursuit of making myself better. And you can do the two things. Absolutely. But they go hand in hand. They have to be. Of course they go hand in hand.

They have to be. Of course they go hand to hand in. So I get to Uber, okay, hired by Travis Kalanick, who's the founder and CEO. I mean, Travis was out, right? Travis was out two weeks after I started, okay? But I come into the company, and we had a very honest conversation about that. And you were Travis's choice. Yes.

So you were hired by Travis, and then Travis is out two weeks later. That's right. That's right. So then you're the person, everyone's at. Yeah. Yeah. They're looking at me crazy. Okay.

But the thing is that, like, I was very honest with Travis. I was like, hey, look, like, you know, I had, was coming off of, like, big wins off of Apple. Right? And I said, look, your company's in trouble. And I can help you turn around this brand because I know what I'm doing when it comes to crafting brand stories and being able to position things to people in a way that they had perhaps not thought about. And the way you're talking about this company is just wrong. You know, you're talking about tech, tech, tech and they care about emotionally, emotion, emotion. And so we're going to craft it differently. But in doing so, I am going to be in the front. I'm the one who's going to tell everybody. And I'm going to make a lot. And I'm going to make a lot. make myself better because I'm going to be crafting it every single day. And you say this in the interview? Yes. You're saying this as you're going through the rungs of Uber to get hired.

You have to be honest. And they're accepting that. Yes. Because the problem people have is that they come in and they lie. Did you think you've ever lost out on roles going in with that same rhetoric? No. Did you think you went somewhere else that you didn't end up working? They were like, no, Bose.

You know why? You know why Emma? I'm going to tell you this. This is going to sound crazy too, okay? because I've never had to interview for a job that I knew I wasn't going to be. Oh. I mean, you know what I mean?

No, it's true. Because the people have come looking for me. I don't. So at that point you know you're in. Yeah, so why should I lie to you? You came here, asked me about what you want me to do for you. So why would I lie to you?

So you're like, I'm going to be the front person. I'm going to be the one that takes this message. That's right. And I'm going to put it out there and I'm going to put me in the center of it. That's right. And that's what you get. I'm going to talk about me.

And so when that New York Times cover came out and said, is this the woman that was saved Uber? I remember it. Yeah. I remember it. That's right. And I'd like somebody to argue and be like, oh, she shouldn't have been, it should have been an engineer, should have been this person.

No, fuck that. It was, because how else was the company going to change? Wasn't something wrong with the algorithm? No, no, we were all getting on taxis on time, right away. Everybody was getting it. So, fantastic. The engineers were beautiful, amazing, innovative, smart, the smartest in the business, I believe.

No, it was the reputation. It was like, it was the brand. And what was I, the chief brand officer? And so why would, why would my face not be on that? And you only stayed there for a year, though. Yeah. A year and a day. You just were like, oh, it was chaos.

It was chaos. And again, this is why I'm saying it has to be about me and it has to be about you. Because at some point, the apple cart was upset. And I knew that if I didn't save myself, I would drown there. not because the company was going to drown, but because I was going to die. And so sometimes you do have to make the decision. You just have to know when it's time to leave.

Yeah. And it's just like, look, the company's going to go public and this is going to happen and that's going to happen and this money is going to come and blah, blah, blah. But I was like, no, stay here one more day and I die. And that's not worth it to me. No. Because also it's like, again, this goes back to the whole confidence of it all.

I'm like, well, I can get another job. There's all kind of people calling me all the time. And you never worried about reputation. You were like, no, because your reputation. was intact. Yes, my reputation is my work. So what do you think when you look at this, again, extraordinary career, what are the things that you got right? Like, when you think about, because you clearly got a lot right, you don't have those jobs with those companies, one after the other, up the other. It's like, and be trash. And be trash. Or even be mediocre.

Or even be like, you know, have a massive team because you can't, it's not like you take the people from Apple and put them at Uber and the people from Uber and put them at WME and so on and so forth. So what do you think you got right? Well, I think I got leadership right very early. Okay. You know, being able to move a group of people and have them believe. But again, this goes back to storytelling. Because my storytelling isn't just about the external story, but it's the internal story. Oh, it's just as important. Yes. Just as important. And so again, just using the example of Uber, it's like when I got there, people at the company didn't want to wear their Uber T-shirts to the grocery store. They didn't want to wear it. And we went to cocktail parties and went to tell people

that they worked at the company. And so the internal story, was actually more important than the external story. And so it's like the storytelling of like why it's important for you to do the work and to do your job really well was critical. Critica. And I would even tell you this, which is, you know, a very hard story. But when I left Pepsi to go to Beats, which was just after Peter had died, an article had come out and said, you know, Pepsi's, Blysmouth St. John.

going to beats by dray, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, it was like, you know, and the industry was just like almost like a step down, right? Oh, it was seen as a step to because Beats wasn't Beats at that point. Oh, and Pepsi is like the marketing king, you know? Yeah. And it's like if you want to have a career as a marker, that's not what you would do, you know? You would stay at Pepsi and rise. In any case, I was in intense grief.

My reputation was really big because of the things I've done with the. Beyonce and Super Bowl. And it was like Bruno Mars and Katie Perry. And like it was like, like, Gaga. It was hit after hit after hit. And so I'm coming in and the marketing team is fledgling, you know,

but there is a group of them. It's about 50 people or so and there are people from all other corners of the company who are coming in, crowding into the boardroom to hear me talk for the first time and say what we are going to do about, you know, beats music and how we're going to take over the industry. right? And in the morning I wake up and I'm just like, I can't stop crying. I've left my daughter in New York. I'm terrified. All of the grief and the sadness is still there. It's very raw. And I'm thinking, what am I going to tell these people? Because I don't even know what I'm talking about. Like,

I don't know what the future of music is. I don't even know what I don't know about this technology. And so I'm walking into the boardroom and like sweating, my armpits are itching. And I'm like, oh my God. Like, what am I even going to say? And I decided to tell them the story about, what my last year had been like, for the last six months had been like, for the last three months have been like. And I said, I am a new widow, and I can barely breathe. And every time I open my eyes, I'm looking at a nightmare. Not just of like the past six months, but the next six months. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm here because I'm desperate. I have to win. I have to win in this job. I have to win in my career. I don't have

any other options. And so who's with me? I'd be like, I want to work for that lady. I won an army that day. Of course he did. Of course you did. And even to the point where last year I held the... Because you showed them your vulnerability.

You showed them your true self. But you showed them that you could not lose. And you had to come here and be excellent. Yes. Like who, like, you know, it was like in that moment, Yes, of course I was being vulnerable and I was, you know, telling people what was happening. But also I was telling them that I was going to scrap. I was going to fight for this.

And I had to win. So if you want to win, then you're with me. Don't go with the person who's over here trying to get a paycheck. I'm not just here for a paycheck. I have to win. For my own survival, I have to win. And with that, that story is what then allows. me to lead a group of people who had to break down doors, who had to do things sometimes wrong,

who didn't know what was going to happen in six months, who had to convince Apple that we should be acquired, who had to walk into Cupertino and all those people who thought they were better than us and show them that actually we had a point to meet us. Yeah. And so my version of leadership is that. And I think that's what I got right a lot. And therefore, I was able to walk into room after room, after room, after room, and convince people that they should follow me. They should do their work and do it well, do it better than anybody else.

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I feel like your presence is, and has been, is, has been, will continue to be a challenge for some people, right? You are in rooms where you show up with the earring and the top and all the things and you're unapologetic. You should ask the housewives. When you could stand with the housewives and make the housewives look a little dull, then you know. But I'm talking about when you're in a boardroom and you are turning up as your whole self.

So how do you manage the criticism and still show up as yourself so unapologetically? You know what? Okay. Now, look, I keep saying things. I know that it sounds simple and it's really hard. Now I'm just going to put together like a real. It's just. I'm like, this is real time, y'all.

Bres all good thoughts. Here's a big. No, but you have to be, not you, I have to be so in love with myself that nothing anybody says is ever going to pierce that veil. It is the same way I was at 13. When I look at myself and I'm just like, God, you are, the nose is perfect. Your hair is amazing.

You're so damn funny. You're so smart. Why are they not laughing at the ghost? Why do they say that your hair is too nappy? Why do they say that? So weird. They must be blinds. They're so weird.

And you really think that and you really believe that. Oh, I really believe that. So what do you do? I'm sure you must have friends, women, colleagues, people that have worked for you over the years who don't have that. How do you take like just a little, just a little pinky of bows and do that for yourself? Well, here's the thing. I'll actually give it to you like this, which is I do that with my daughter, right?

I remember once, oh my gosh, Emma. I was in target once, okay? No fault of targets, but I was in Target. And my daughter was probably two, maybe three, and she was sitting in the front part of the cart and I was pushing it. And we were, I don't even know what I was shopping for, but we're walking. and I was looking at her and I was just like, gosh, you're so pretty. You're my lady.

You know, I was like, you're so, so pretty. And this woman turns to me. And she was just like, you know, you should tell her she's smart, not just pretty. Because girls need to know they're smart. Ooh, the way I rounded on this person. And I was like, how dare you? How dare you? She knows she's smart.

But the world is going to tell her she's not pretty. and it is my job to instill within her every day that she's beautiful. And not just beautiful, the most beautiful. This morning when I woke up my daughter, okay, she's now almost 16. Girls, you cannot make that child up for nothing. The alarm goes off and I'm just like, does she have ears? I don't understand what's going on. Shake him to wake us.

Is that, you know? Yeah. Get to that age. Yeah. And I'm like, like, oh, it's time to wake up. And she, like, rolled over and just looked at her face. And I was like, God, you're so beautiful. And I was like, look at this nose.

It's like, it's mine, by the way. It's so gorgeous. It's like, in that chin, that's a St. John chin. That's not mine, but it's gorgeous. And look at these cheekbones. Now, that's your grandma. She got those cheekbones. You got them, too.

It's so great. Yeah, and she's just, like, laying there. She's like, Mom. And I'm like, you know. But the thing is that, like, I. and she and other women. You have to be so in love with yourself. And yes, I'm using beauty as just one of the things,

but it's like you have to deeply love yourself in order to withstand the criticism that will come to you. Because everybody will criticize you. Your family will, your friends will, your business associates will, the world will, social media will. We know that for sure. But you've got to be so in love with yourself

that you turn and look at that criticism and say, why would they think that? And it has to be so foreign to you and so shocking that you cannot accept it. Because why would you? It doesn't make any sense. They must be crazy. And you have to get to that level.

And so if you're not there, do it. That is the assignment. Practice. Do it every day. You must do it. You must look at yourself in the mirror. You must tell yourself until you believe it. You must do it.

it is not going to come from anybody else. I'm not going to be able to tell you, like here are the five steps to walking into room with confidence. You must believe it. You must know that when you walk into the room, it is different because you are there. And if somebody else was there,

it would not be the same. You must believe it. I believe it. I think I come into this podcast and it is different because I'm here. It is. I know. It is.

It's just a fact. It's just a fact. But you have to believe it. You have to believe it. You have to believe it. And if there's like one thing that I wish everybody would understand it is that.

Find it. Work on it. And until you do, nothing that you do will ever feel fulfilling. Because somebody's always going to tell you that it's wrong. Somebody's always going to tell you

you should have done differently. Somebody's going to tell you that that sparkle doesn't work for you. And you wore it because you were like, I'm going to wear this for Bose and it's going to be cute. And she's going to love it. And I do.

But you believe that. And that's why you put that on today. If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't have put it up. You didn't think that I wouldn't love it. True. I mean, I was raised that way. Yeah. You know, I was raised looking in the mirror.

First of all, let me just say this. First of all, before I say looking in the mirror, I was raised just as you do with your daughter. My mom told me we were beautiful. Yeah. That our curly hair was so beautiful. That my big two front teeth were the most beautiful. That my, you know,

I have this huge birthmark that comes right across me. Do you really? Oh my God, it's like so huge. Like right across my shoulder, right across my breast. And my mum said to me, you know, Emma, if I ever had to choose you just from your shoulders, I would know exactly which one you were. And in my head, I was like, yeah, that makes sense. So much sense.

Because I really believed it. And I do the same with my kids now. And of course I talk about how smart they are. Of course. Because I talk about how talented they are and they could do anything that they want. But actually, for women, so much of how we feel. is attributed to our looks. Yeah, how we look.

How we step into this world. And that's just a fact. Anyone that says any different is a liar. Let me actually make this point too, which is that I do think you have to be specific, you know? I think otherwise it just feels pithy, you know, if you're too broad about it. Like you're not just beautiful because you're beautiful.

It's like, why? No, why? Because of your birthmark. Yes. Because of your two front teeth, because of your early hair, you know? And that's why I'm specific when I'm telling Liel why she's beautiful. And I'm specific when I'm telling her why she's beautiful. Mark.

Yeah. And I'm specific with the example so that she can pull on that. Yes. And recognize for herself. Well, because also people will have specificity when they put you down. Oh, right?

Because I remember in school, it was always about this line in my lip and they would come up with things. But my mama had already said to me that line is most people like I'm like, you lot are dumb. I was like, this line is so special. That's exactly right. But again,

the specificity is really important. I love you. I literally love you for saying that so much. I really do. All right. I'm going to go back to marketing because I do feel like I'm going to rinse you for all of this information. I'm there. Don't you worry.

I'm going to get that. I'm going to go slightly over, but I promise you I'll get there. Oh my gosh. We're having too much fun. Yeah, we're having too much because we've got so much to say in this whole thing. All right. Let's talk about this. If someone is launching a brand tomorrow, what is the first thing or what should they think about from a marketing point of you?

Okay. The first thing they should think about. Well, sorry. There's two. Sorry. No, sorry. I love that. Two things.

and they are sort of like always the yin' and the yang, which is that one, it's like, what is so special about the thing? There has to be something. Think of one thing that is special about the thing that you're launching or the brand that you're creating and sit on that, like make that the centerpiece. On the other hand, who are you talking to?

It has to be very specific also. It can't be everybody because that's just how the world works. It's not the way that we talk. And so those two things together are then what's going to make the stability in the foundation of the brand. It will weather all of the storms and will help you to make decisions about the brand. So it's like if it doesn't celebrate the one thing, if it doesn't talk to the one person, then that thing can't work. Then you don't do it. It's so simple.

Yes. Right? It is. We're talking about what is USB, what is your audience? Yeah. And really, really figuring those two things out. How do you even make a campaign that kind of sparks conversation and cuts through noise now when there's so much out there? Oh, man. Well, we'll be I think all it really takes, and I know, again, it sounds so simple, is that it has to be true to those two things. You know? Because it's like, everybody's like,

oh, let's make a viral campaign. And it's like, well, first of all, it's like, what's going to work for you? It's not going to work for the person. I know everybody thinks they know this academically. They don't behave that way. You know, so I'm just like, well, what's special about this one thing? What's special about this mic right here?

And who is going to use it? And then make a campaign that talks to that, that talks to that specific thing that is so great about this and talks to the person that you're trying to talk to. And it has to be narrow. It is counterintuitive because you're like, you know, shouldn't we make this microphone for everybody with lips? Everybody who has a voice.

Never. Never that. No, you can't do that. And so, but it becomes difficult when you're like, oh, but I've got to sell. Well, because people always imagine that you're shrinking your audience, right? If you're making jeans for curvy bodies, people are all about straight bodies. I don't worry about that.

Exactly. Have your specificity, do your one thing and do it perfect. I'm doing so well. And I do it so well. That's right. That's right. Because I always also compare it to like, if you and I left here, right? And tomorrow night I'm at a cocktail party and you walk in. And now of a sudden you've got a Nashville accent.

Oh, I'll try. And I'm like, who the hell is that? Oh, that's not Emma. You know what I mean? And then the person you talk to, they know you as your Nashville accent and then they hear this conversation. And they're like, when the hell was she doing? What was that accent she was talking about? Now they don't trust you.

But it wasn't like you were lying to anybody. You said the same thing here. You said the same thing there. You didn't lie, but it was in your behavior. And so when you think about brands, it's like that. You know, what is the truth of the thing? And then say it honestly. Because the person who you speak to with your beautiful accent is going to still understand you.

So why did you have to switch it? Yeah. You didn't. No, it's so true. Now they don't trust you. And that's what happens with brands all the time. All the time. All the time.

I needed to connect with that person from. Nashville. No, you could have done it with the accents you have and you'd be fine. It's so true. So what do you do when things go wrong nowadays? Because we see so many brands put a foot wrong. And it's kind of also easy to offend in this moment of social media. What should you do when you just... Okay. You're making a mistake. Okay. Here's the thing. All right. Now, see, now I've got to get like psychological. So I'm just like, well, was it a mistake? Okay. Because first of all, you have to identify. Was it a mistake? Or were people just upset at your choice?

You know what I'm saying? And it's like if it was a mistake I could take that one right to church right now. Was it a mistake? Did you say something wrong or did people just not like it? Or these people didn't like it. You know?

Because the truth is that like if you made a mistake and you know it's a mistake, then you apologize immediately. Apologize immediately for the mistake. And make corrective action immediately. Yes. But if you identify that it wasn't a mistake, people just don't like it. Then you don't apologize. It works brilliantly for crisis management.

by the way. It's like, did you do something wrong or did people just not like it? If you did something wrong, I can apologize right now. We don't just get up and start apologizing just because people didn't like it, but you didn't do anything wrong. You don't believe that. No. So you're going to behave differently. Exactly, which is crazy and you go back against everything that you believe in. That's right. No one trusts you. And it's all about trust at the end of the day. All right. Now I'm going to move on and I'm dying to talk about this new business of yours. When I saw the announcement of this, first of all, I was like,

Genius, genius, genius, genius, timing, timing, everything, all the things in the line. Yes. But I am so happy that you have launched your own brand. It's called Eve by Bose. Yes, that's right. That's right.

I mean, you need to tell me everything. But the thing I am most impressed about is that you put your own money into this. Yes. Right? Oh my gosh. How terrifying. How terrifying. Yeah, very, very terrifying.

How terrifying. But also because I believe it, you know. So part of the reason why I started the company was because, you know, I love hair. like through and through, okay, always. Like when I did the Apple keynote in 2016 and people were like, oh my God, this new product, they also talked about my hair. Amazing.

You know, it's like when I was on the cover of the New York Times and saying that I was the one who was going to save Uber, I was in my long-ass braids down to my ankles. You know, it's like I have loved hair my entire life. And part of the challenge with the hair extension business is that it's just not made for women of color for black women. We're not at the center, even though we make up 80% of the consumer base. Which is so wild, isn't it?

And is that just like, is that a pure texture play or is it more nuanced than that? No, it's more nuanced. It is a texture play, but it's also things like lace. Colors of lace. Correct. Oh, you're about to have a skew intensive situation out here. So you are going to make different color laces? I have made different color laces.

Wow. Yeah. How many different colors? Okay. Right now, but I'll expand because literally today I was literally answering a customer question about another product I have, which is called Native Skin. And it basically is what you put inside of a wig, inside of the lace, to hide the knots and make it look like scalp. Got it.

Right? And she was like, oh, I'm between these two colors. So what do I do? And I was like, well, today, what you're going to do is that you're going to use the product so you can hide the knots, okay, in the lace, because that's the number one goal. Then you're going to take your foundation and you are going to color it a little bit. But don't worry, I'm coming with a shade for you. Yeah, like, I got you. I mean, because why shouldn't I have 40 shades like we have in cosmetics?

Mm-hmm. It should. But part of the problem was that these companies, these manufacturers, just weren't doing it because they didn't feel a need to. You Google, like, how to, you know, tint my lace to be my complexion. And you'll find 14 million videos of black women and women of color telling you how to do it. So my question was like, but why do they have to do that? What an inconvenience.

I went to Guanjo, China. As if doing your hair doesn't take long enough already. I mean, please. I went to the place with the biggest hair show in the world, Guangzhou, China. I went by myself. And I... That's a lot. Yeah.

But I wanted to find out of fun. But wait a minute, because you are not manufacturing in China, right? Because I heard that you are actually in Ghana. Amazing. Yeah, so I built a factory. You built a factory. Yeah. Oh, good.

You're self-funding. You're building factories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And processing, all the things. Wow. Well, because, like, I also felt like, look, you know, they may have the corner on the manufacturing of hair, right? The sourcing of it, all of that stuff.

So I'm still sourcing from Asia, from all kinds of places in Asia. But I wanted to manufacture in Ghana. because I feel like the people there and the people I've hired will better understand how to talk to and make things for people like me. I mean, it makes sense. Without a doubt. Yes, of course. Why would I not do that? You know what I mean?

It's like, of course. Well, I tell you why you wouldn't do that because there's that cost implications. I'm like, I'm not listening. I've got a list me. But I admire you. And I think it's incredible that you would do that because we know how passionate you are about that country, that region, about jobs, about supporting. So I admire it. But that is complex.

And it's complex. Is this your first start-up? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm also maniacal. I'm obsessed. I mean, of course you are. I am obsessed.

I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. It's like I want to understand how we are threading each, like, dot of lace. I want to understand the textures. I want to understand why it sheds. I want to understand what the colors are, what products are going in it. I want to understand how we wash it. so they can't be allergic for my sister who has sensitivities with that.

I want it to smell good. I don't like it when you take a fresh extension out of a hair and it smells like plastic. No, no one wants that. And it's right next to your face. Also, I don't want it to be delivered to me in plastic. I spend way too much money on it. So. You want to deliver her number.

I want to deliver it. What are you going to deliver it in? Delivered in a bonnet. Beautiful. Oh, perfect. Which is sewn by women in Ghana who work at the factory, made with fabric that I designed myself and printed a GTP,

which is the original manufacturing plant for fabric in Ghana. It feels very personal this. It is. It is. And that's why you were willing to put your own money in. Oh, yes, it's yes. I don't want anybody by the time you're what to do.

But there was no, because I feel like, again, you've built this reputation. Yeah. You're now in the cast of housewives. You could have gone out and raised money pretty easily, I would imagine. Yes, yes, very much. Was there no temptation to do that?

There was. Now, here's where we come back to it. Tell me. I wanted to raise at first because my ego. Ah, because you wanted to be able to be like, I raised, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, she's the, like, the black woman who made the most money, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, whatever. And I was sitting there, girl, and it was tempting. I was like, I could. And I could also not, I could also raise and not make that headline. Yes.

But I was like, but why am I doing that? what am I doing it for? I can fund it. So why do I need to... And you were in that position where you were like, I can fund it? Yeah. Have you put a lot of money in?

Yes. And I... A scary amount of money? A scary amount of money. A scary amount of money. And I talked to my business manager about it. God bless her. Who was like...

Was she supportive? Oh, no, no, no. No, of course not. No, of course. They never are. She was like, why would you use your money to do this? What's about a stupidity?

And I was like... And again, this is why sometimes you got to really understand if it's your guts or what. And I just felt called. You know, I was like, it has to be mine. Like, it has to be mine. It has to be my skin in the game.

I have to have, people have to believe me that, like, I'm not taking anybody's money because I believe in this. And it is mine. And I'm going to make it for you because I love it that much. I'm willing to put everything in it. And I'm going to stitch every single thread through this. I'm going to test every single thread. single product, not because I don't want to disappoint my investors, because I can't lose.

It is the same speech that I gave in that Pete's office. I'm like, I get it. I win because I have to win. Because I love it this much. I have no doubt. No doubt. There's nothing in me that's like, let me invest. I have no doubt and you're winning.

I'm here for it. All the wigs. But I love it. I love it. All the bundles, all the pieces. And I'm making it for everybody. I love seeing it. it outside. You must.

It's like, oh my God. Rebecca Minkoff called me and was like, hey, can I get for 40 inches? I was like, girl's not made for you, but sure. You know what I mean? I was like, listen, whatever you want. I said her the straightest texture I had. I was like, I hope it works. Okay?

A little bit of flavor. Everybody needs it. Like, why not? Erica Jane, you know, one of my classmates. Yes, Erica Jane. I mean, she's amazing. Look. And if anyone, she knows how to wear some hair that girl.

Let me tell you, Erica Jane wears platinum. Yeah, I mean, she's 13. Do you have that color? I'm making it right now. Yes, I love that. I took her my first batch. And I was like, here you go. Listen, that's a great ambassador.

I am, listen, I watched you turn up on Housewives. First of all, I am obsessed. I'm the first place. Like, Housewives is my number one guilty pleasure of life. I didn't know that. Beverly Hills, followed by Atlanta, followed by New York. I don't watch any of the others, but that's my jam. No, no, no.

I love it. It's almost like I like it if I get like a little bit sick and I'm going to I was going to say I'm today. Honestly, it's my favorite thing. So when you turned up, first of all, I was dead. Then I was dead. Then I was like, no. No, she did not.

Like I could not. I could not imagine. I know. I could not imagine. And everybody told me not to do it, by the way. Of course they told you not to do it. Because they were like, how are you going to go back and get one of these big-ass jobs? Like, was this again?

I know you don't plan. But did it feel in your gut? Did this feel right to you? Like that was the right move to me? make for that moment in your life? Yes, it felt divine. It really did. And as much as anything in my life feels divine, you know, I think I told you this before where I was like, hey, look, like, I feel like the universe opens. And I can feel it. And all I have to do is walk in it. Like, I really, I'm telling you, like, I can feel it. I know it. And so this moment, it was like the chasm formed

And I was like, oh, shit, okay, this is, this is where I'm supposed to go. And so, again, it's like all those naysayers and the people are just like, oh, but your reputation. And like, oh, people are going to laugh at you when they're going to wonder why in the hell you would do this and go argue with women on TV. Well, but you don't. I don't. No, but this is the interesting thing. You're changing the energy of the housewives. Because I feel like you came in with all of your intelligence and no yelling, no bickering.

But Emma, Emma, Emma. Raising about it. This is what we're talking about, which is like, I believe in myself first. So you weren't coming in to join the cast of these housewives. You're like, I'm coming in as bows,

to do bows, to be bows. And I'm coming as me. And it doesn't matter what, and it doesn't matter what has worked in the past, and it doesn't matter that, you know, people love,

like, a quick comeback that will, like, slice somebody down and all. I don't do that. I don't know how to do that. And so I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do what I do. Do you think it aligns with your reputation and, like, as a storyteller?

Yes. I think it is my story right now. Because for a long time, I have told my story, my personal story, from a lens which looks backwards. Yes, yes. You know, I think people would say that they know the story of me, like, personally, as a mother and as a widow. Mm-hmm.

You know, but they don't know my story right now. Like, they don't know me personally. They don't know if I cook. They don't know if I drive. They don't know who I'm dating. They don't know how I'm mother. Right? You know I'm a good mother.

You can see the product of my child, but you don't know how I do it. You don't know what my policies are. You don't know if I allow her to date. You don't know anything. And so for me... We're learning. We're learning. I mean, we literally...

That right now is the part of the storytelling that I want to deliver. And so it's like this platform allows me to do that. No, it really does. And I honestly, I have to tell you both... I think you are showing up beautifully in that show. Like I feel like everyone who watches you, who kind of like, you know, knows you. Yeah.

Is looking at that and being like, wow. She gives zero fuck. She is 100% herself. Yes, myself. But there's an element of pride in there. Because I think that as a black woman coming into that show, it's hard enough. But you are, you're just you.

Yeah. And you're coming in and you're doing it in such a kind of like higher orbit way. I'm like, look at her. She is not going down. to that level. No, no, no, no. It's very interesting to see that. Because I think I'd be such a little bitch

on that show. Like, I don't, you know what I mean? This is why. This is why I want you to join. It's another conversation for another day. They're like, go on. So, when are you coming on the show? Listen, Bose.

I'm coming here as your friend. This is my pitch. This is my pitch. Yes. Perfect. I'll take it. It's too funny. And who do you think is the best business woman on Housewives? Oh, see, now this is a hard one.

Because I'm looking at it not in terms of like, what they have done that would make them succeed, but if I would hire them. And I would hire Dorit, probably first. Yeah. You know, she's the, because she's the kind who will get obsessed. Yes, I can see that. And we'll become very passionate about the thing. Like, if she believes in it, she's not letting it go. If you had to invest, if you had to invest in one of the housewives, who would you invest in? Today? Yeah, yeah, today. It would be Erica Jane. Thanks, I mean, easy. Easy. When you think about housewives, just,

as a franchise and overall, do you think that, do you think that it's stereotypes women or do you think it's empowering for women overall? I'm sorry, today? Yes. Hmm, I think it's stereotypes women today. But I think it has a potential to empower women. I think, you know, it's fallen into a little bit of a rut of complex arguments and disagreements that aren't founded in anything profound, you know? And so, by the way, my belief isn't that there shouldn't be any fighting on Housewives. I think that that's a natural part of friendship and who we are. Of course it is. We have conflict. Of course it is.

I would prefer that the conflict is based on something with, like, real depth, purpose, and that it can be resolved or not with that same type of angle. You know, it's not like, oh, all the while Housewives have to get along, it has to be kumbaya, and everybody just has to sing in, like, whole hands. That's right. I'm like, we all have so much conflict in our lives all of the time. Like, you know, I'm thinking about, okay, what happens next season, right? And even for myself.

And I'm like, gosh, there's so much happening in my life that there's, and there's conflict inside of my own life that I don't need to go and argue with somebody over the conflict. All it takes is for me to tell you what's going on. Yeah. Maybe you agree or disagree, right? I remember one area in particular, right, where I was at dinner with Dorete and Erica and we were talking about my relationship. Oh my God, of course.

I watched the show. I know exactly what you're about to say. And then you tell them, but you hasn't even said, I love you. And their reaction is like, what? Oh, I mean, look. By the way, that was all of our reaction.

Yeah, of course. Everybody was shook. Everybody was shook. We're like, what is she talking about? Everybody was shook. Is this trying to have a baby with this man? Which is my next question, by then. But that was, that was an honest reaction.

Yes. And by the way, Erica was like, absolutely not. Like, you know, what wasn't seen on TV, right? was that she was just like, oh, this is ridiculous. She was like, absolutely not. You cannot do not have another conversation about having a baby or doing anything serious without him telling you he loves you. And we got into a little bit of a conflict on that.

Oh, you did? Yeah. But that is a natural thing. And I think we should. Why didn't we see that? I know, right? We should have seen that. There was so much to see.

Bose and Erica Jane. There was so much going off, you know? I want to see that. But here's the thing. I trusted her disagreement. Yeah, fair enough. Because I know that she cares for me. and we don't have to agree on whether or not

I think it was important that he says he loves me before I talked to him about having a baby because we don't agree. We just don't agree. But that's okay. And we can disagree on that and we can disagree loudly too if we want to. Yes.

But the thing is that like we can also resolve it whereas now I'm just like, take that Erica. You know what I mean? And she's just like, all right, all right, maybe I was wrong. All right. I only have one more housewast question for you

because of the best. I could have done this whole thing about how old. You did say, that you were thinking about having another baby. Yes. And I just wonder, like, at this point in your life, when it feels like you're starting a new business and you've got the world is in front of you.

Yeah. Really? Really? And I'll tell you why. It's not just love. I suffered so much through my pregnancies. I had early preeclampsia, I had a protein-nest deficiency. I had to take injections. I had to take medicine. I lost my first child to it.

There was just so much. Thank you. There was so much that I suffered with it. And so part of, you know, what has happened in the last 16 years is me convincing myself that I didn't want another one. It wasn't the reality of it. Of course. Yes.

Fear. Yes. You know, trauma, grief, all of it. And I'm not saying that those things aren't protective. They are. Because I was like, you know, actually, I don't want another child. I have one. I'm good.

Like, I thank you, Lord. And I'm good with this one. But the truth of the matter underneath it is that it did take love in order for me to uncover that maybe there was a little spark or something in there. When Keely said to me that he wanted to have a baby with me, and I looked at that man like he was out of his mind. And I said, oh, see, I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, what does that mean exactly?

And he's like, well, do you want one? And I was like, yes. I was like, but I can't. And he was like, why? And I'm sick and I've had this and I've had that. And he was like, well, could we ask a doctor? Could we talk to somebody? Could tell us definitively whether or not you can't?

And I was like, okay, but they're not going to like get rid of my fear. And I was wrong. They did. Yes. And so when I met Dr. Cindy Dup, who's an amazing fertility doctor, and she's talking to me about the realities of preeclampsia, my age, my, you know, like health, like what the last 16 years of hypertension have done to my heart, like all those things. And she gave me the confidence that it's possible.

Man, I'm telling you, I cried that day. I bet you did. A lot of tears. Yeah. Because I'd carried around a lot of guilt and a lot of trauma over 16 years. And I said, okay. well then all I can do is try you know maybe I will

so maybe I will and so I'm going to do everything I can to see if I can We're going to be watching both We're going to be hoping for you Listen Thank you We will be So I guess my question to you

Is at this point in your life It's like you've had all the big jobs You've had the cultural moments You're starting a new business You're on my favorite show Yeah Most important thing You're raising this beautiful little daughter

and you've got all the hope in the world for what your future could hold. What's important to you now and what does the future hold? What's important to me now? Remember when I was telling you about like, you know, the universe just opening, right? It's not this universe, it's like God, you know,

that I just want to do what is set out for me to do. Sometimes it feels like I'm drinking from a fire hose because it's so big. but it's so exciting. And every day, something happens and I'm just like, I'm in awe. I'm in awe of this life.

Like, I mean, how wonderful, how amazing is it to be able to, like, sit and commune with the universe with God and just be like, okay, what am I supposed to be now? And get answers. It is a masterful, beautiful thing. And I wish everybody could feel that way. I feel anointed that way. People are like, oh, you're glowing. I'm like, yes, because that's just my destiny, like, showing up in my face. Like, I'm so happy in this life.

That's a really beautiful thing to say. That's just my destiny showing up in my face. I'm going to steal that one. Yeah, but it is. And the thing is that, like, look, again. That's so beautiful, Bose. You know my story. Like, it's not as if it's been a silver spoon.

It's not as if it's just been, like, roses and, like, you know, diamonds all along. And, you know, Bose, it's so funny. And I do want to say this to you. I didn't ask you about those things. for a reason because I think that, first of all, I'm a Bose fan. I read everything. I listen to everything. And I feel like the way you are in your life at this point has to be celebrated.

And so my focus was very intentional because it's not to ignore because you have had an unbelievable life and you've had unbelievable tragedies. But it's more to pay respect to like where you're at and where you're going. And I think that that is really important. And those things, I can't predict. okay? I can't say like, oh my gosh, nothing bad will ever happen to me again. I don't know. I've seen like the depth of things and they're terrible and scary and I hope nothing like that happens again. But if they do, like I have utmost faith that my life is going to be excellent regardless of those things that happen.

And that's why I walk around with this smile. That's why I walk around such optimism. That's why I walk around with some joy in the life that I live, regardless of the tragedies that happened because I have faith that my life is going to be. Excellent. My job. No? I'm going to do my quick fire round because I could cry. You make me cry. You make me feel like I'm going to cry and like I'm in church all at once. It's very powerful.

I love you. It's so good. It's so true. All right. What is the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning? I pray. Really? Yeah.

Every day? Every day. I love that. What's the last thing you do before you go to bed? Hmm. I check my email. You do know. I do. You're not supposed to do that with the phone and the light in your face. It's literally slain

by my bed. By the way, Ariana Huffington once gave me like a phone bed. Do you remember when she was doing this? Yes, of course. Yeah. Because she's like, don't look at your phone beds. Yeah, don't put your tech like next to your face in your bed. Where's your phone bed? Girl, I don't know. It's in the freaking closet somewhere. I'm not. I'm probably do it out. Sorry, Ariana. Sorry, girl. But you know, yeah, I check my email. I love that. What are you currently aspiring for in your business life? Ooh. total world domination.

Yes. Yes. I want to be the greatest. Yeah. I feel like you're on the way. I have no doubt. What are you currently aspiring for in your personal life? Oh gosh.

I think just the release of my trauma so that I can live a fully loving life. What is a book that changed your life? The artist's way. It's almost like a workbook. So it's going to tell you more about yourself than it is going to tell you what to do. It should be buying it immediately. What is something that you valued when you were starting out that you don't now? Ooh.

I think maybe I really valued title. Like the title that I was given. I don't care about that so much anymore. I have so many of them. I was going to say, stack them up. That's why. And they don't really matter. Power matters.

I care more about power now and I care about the title. What's something that you value now that you didn't back then? Ooh, freedom. I was so chained to my career, you know, but now I'm free to do whatever the hell I want to do. I didn't know that that was an important thing. It's amazing. Bose, I think you're the most, most spectacular woman.

I'm so happy that you would spend a couple of hours. Thank you. I love you. You made my best. You made my day. You made my day. You know what I mean? I just want to come anywhere now.

Okay. I know. I'm not just going to just go over places. I'm here because you, and I'm so proud of you. Thank you. For what you're doing. It means the world. It's amazing.

It means the world. Thank you, guys. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend who'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emagreed is presented by Auducy. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilliott Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey on Maddie Sprung Kaiser,

Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Saluja and Jenna Weiss Berman. Justine Dom is our senior producer. Our producer is Kristen Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shultz. Angela Paluso is our Booker, original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele,

Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Holman. Special thanks, go to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at Jones Works and W&E, Mora Curran, Josephina Francis, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meecole, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DME at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E, that's AspI-I-R-E with Emma Greed.

Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emagreed.me. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition, First Citizens Bank.