Aspire with Emma Grede - Aspire with Jessica Alba: Why It’s Time to Break Up with Perfection

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

If you've ever felt underestimated, struggled with mom-guilt, or wondered if it's possible to truly balance ambition and personal peace, this is your episode. We dive into the emotional costs of overachievement, building a business as a mother of three, the moments of doubt when everyone underestimated her, and the heartbreaks that shaped her perspective on success and leadership. This isn't just a story of entrepreneurship and resilience; it's also about vulnerability, intuition, and learning to let go of perfection. Jessica Alba gets real about the success, the global fame, and her journey building the mega-successful brand, The Honest Company. In this deeply personal and honest conversation, Jessica opens up about her transition away from the company she poured her heart into, revealing what it felt like to hand over her "baby" to others. Jessica shares the inside story of what really drove her to start The Honest Company—her health struggles as a child, an allergic reaction that terrified her as a new mom, and her fierce determination to protect families everywhere from hidden toxins. Jessica Alba is proof that the strength to evolve comes from being true to who you really are, even in the toughest moments. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I am so excited to share my debut book with you or Start With Yourself, which is available now. You might have seen the headlines, you might have seen the social, but this book is exactly what I intended, a conversation that will make you think, and it's a blueprint for anyone who wants success without the toxic positivity. Start with yourself is about self-leadership, because wherever I go, women ask me how I got to where I am. But what you really want to know is how you can get there. So I'm doing what I do best, sharing and navigate keeping what's works for me in the hope that you can borrow from a philosophy that has served me so well. The truth is I'm not an expert. I've just lived it. I've made the mistakes.

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share it with you. Start with yourself. My debut book is available now. Visit emigre.com to purchase the book, also available on Amazon, your favorite audio platforms and all good bookshops. Today's guest on the Asphire podcast is Jessica Alba. Jessica is a globally recognized actress, yes, but she's also the founder of the Honest company, a business she built from the ground up into a mission-driven, publicly traded powerhouse that redefined what conscious consumer goods could look like. But over a decade, Honest wasn't just her company, it was her baby, her battleground and her calling. Now she's in a season of transition personally and professionally. She stepped away from the company she created. She's exploring new ways of working and she's rethinking

what success, leadership and balance mean to her. In our conversation, Jessica opens up about the emotional cost of overachievement, the fragility behind the facade of strength and what it means to lead with both conviction and vulnerability. We talk about what drove her to start the honest company, how she handled being underestimated in boardrooms, the heartbreaks that shaped her and the ongoing challenge of navigating public scrutiny while staying true to her values. This is a conversation about ambition, identity, reinvention,

and what happens when you finally give yourself permission to let go? Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theatre stage on April 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovale on May 17th and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at Yamava Theater.com, only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary.

You in? Must be 21 to enter. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. Jessica, I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you. It's very, very exciting. I'm happy to be here too. I feel like we never talk like in a professional manner. Do you know what we? We never do. No, we never do. It's usually in passing. It's always in passing. It's at an event or something around mutual friends, Kelly and Jamie, where it's not a professional situation, I would say. But you are in a bit of a professional and personal transition moment right now. So I'm glad that I got you when I did. And I wanted to ask you, I mean, you announced you.

your departure from the company that you built from scratch, the honest company. And I really wanted to ask you, what made you even decide to leave? Well, I feel like I launched it now. It's probably around 13 years ago. And it really was kind of like another kid. Yeah. Except this one grew quickly. And I just feel like it was at the stage where it was ready to kind of evolve and go off to college. You know, I felt like I, like, nurtured and I raised it and I put all I could into it, but ultimately I didn't call it the Jessica Alba company. No, for a reason. For a reason. And I wanted it to really transcend anything that, frankly, any ideas I had, I knew there's a, there's a limitation to me and my vision for it. And so I was like,

a company or this company in particular, I really, my biggest vision was that if it's in someone else's hands, like imagine what they could do with it. Yeah, and you made it. Yeah, and so I really built something that was meant to really be handed off to someone else and really more of a consciousness of like-minded people that believe in building businesses with purpose that can do good while also being profitable and making impact on business. I really didn't want to build a nonprofit. I wanted it to be a very productive for-profit business. And that's exactly what you did, because I think if you go back 13 years ago, we weren't using those terms in the same way that we throw them about now. Social entrepreneurship really was more of a nonprofit terminology. And then there was just entrepreneurship.

And a lot of the entrepreneurs, especially when I was coming up, there was a lot of tech-based digital first, D to C businesses, venture-backed. And so I actually built the business as a venture-backed D-to-C business. and over the last 12 years, it really evolved into being more of in the pocket of a innovative CPG company. And that wasn't your original intention or was that always the idea? It was always the idea, but how to get there, I think my path was more progressive, more of the times. I mean, I was probably one of the first people to build a brand leveraging social media.

Oh, 100%. No one was doing that prior to me. doing it. And I feel like a lot of the practices and the ways that we bring product to market now, you really pioneered. You were very, very early. And even when we talk about... Influencer market and all of that, you were early on in that. And even when you talk about like a purpose driven business, again, that wasn't something that we spoke about 13 years ago. And certainly not something was happening. One of the OGs for sure. Yeah. And I looked at brands like Whole Foods. And I looked at brands like seven generation. And those were really around, you know, protecting the

environment and leveraging or scaling a co-op, which is what Whole Foods did. And I was, I looked at them as like, okay, these are very innovative concepts that disrupted these spaces of grocery and disrupted the spaces of like home detergents. And so I was like, what is that next thing that can be done? And it's really like having a business that's really built around human health and putting human health first and thinking of, you know, the impact that it could have also on the planet. Yeah. No, and I feel like you did that. I mean, honestly, I think about you. I mean, of course, we've done a lot of research and I've been thinking about you for the last few weeks, but I feel like I've watched you from afar for so many years. And I have to take my hat off to you.

Yeah, of course, because it's like, I knew you from the movies and you've been so unbelievably successful, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars at the box office. You built a company out of an idea that you had. You took it public. You have the most beautiful family. And so I feel like I have to take my hat off to you as a female entrepreneur because you really have done the most. And I feel like you did it in a time when we weren't all talking about it. You were a very early kind of trial blazer and you kind of had to forge that path. And I wonder now as you step, I mean, you're not totally outside the business because you're on the board, right? I'm on the board, yeah. Yeah. But it's a different, you're in a very, very different place.

You're not like day in, day out in that business. How do you feel about the whole thing? You know, it's like a bittersweet. It's hard because I really love it. And you know, you have all these ideas of how you thought it was going to go. And even when I, people probably don't know is the first three and a half years, I just hit a lot of dead ends. No one wanted to, no one thought this business could even exist.

Please can we talk about those? I feel like no one talks about. No one talks about failure. No one talks about dead ends. No one talks about how flipping heart it is. It was. It was. I mean, I'd never built a business plan. I didn't go to business school. I just knew conceptually that this needed to exist. People needed to know that they could make better choices. And I believe that people didn't need to be exposed to unnecessary chemicals that could affect their health in a bad way. And so talk to me about.

that journey. So you're an actress. I'm assuming you were a very nice point in your career at that time. Probably the peak. The peak. So you decide at the peak of your career, I'm going to try something else and I'm going to become an entrepreneur. Or you were like, I just want to start something new. At the peak of my career, I had a baby. My baby, yes, the perspective or my priorities. Like my whole life revolved around. There's an innate, I think, narcissism to, existence prior to having to take care of something. Yeah. For some people, it's animals, you know, it's a loved one.

And for me, it was when I became a mom. Yeah. And so that's when my whole perspective and priorities shifted. And so my career was everything to me. And then I was pregnant with my first daughter and I had an allergic reaction to a detergent that was really marketed for babies. And when I had this allergic reaction, I freaked out and I was like, I recalled my childhood, which also people might not know.

I was very sick as a kid. You were? I spent a lot of time in hospitals. I had chronic asthma and allergies to the point where like every cold turned into one to two week hospital stay. What a nightmare. And I had many surgeries, like my appendix, I had weird kidney surgery or issues with my kidneys.

I had my tonsils taken out. I had cysts on my throat. So I had like many issues. And this is all up until age 11. Right. And so it was like chronic health issues. And I had this allergic reaction. And I, and I was like, oh my God, what if my baby had an allergic reaction?

And she couldn't tell me. What if her throat closes before my eyes? Like, how could I help her? Because she can't talk. And I was like, we have, I can't believe that there's something that I could have been allergic to. And I'm an adult. So I learned about all of these untested and potentially harmful chemicals that are in everything. Everything.

Everything. Everything from our personal care. So think of your deodorants, your perfumes, air fresheners are the worst candles, scented candles, like all of these things, all the way through to the off-gassing of furniture and items inside the house is often much more toxic than even the pollution that's outside. and people just don't even know. And then when you think of the detergents and all this stuff, and so I was like, what do I even buy? And I was freaking out. And so I would buy stuff from Europe because they had higher standards.

Yes, we do. Yeah, and I would buy stuff from Australia because they also have higher standards. And I looked at all this data around, you know, even just how many chemicals are banned in personal care alone. In Europe, it was 1100. Yeah. And here it was like 10 or 11. Wild, isn't it?

Even though they know all of these things could affect human health in a bad way, enough people have to be proven to die from it or get so fatally ill before they'll even test a chemical. And what did you think? Like, were you of the mindset like, I'm going to go out and change this? No, I was like, we can't be poisoned. Like, how can people be poisoned? So I went and I lobbied on Capitol Hill for chemical reform. And then I was like, they were like, are you a Democrat or Republican?

I was like, I'm a human being. Yeah, what does it matter? I was like, this is nothing to do with politics. I don't want my babies to die. I don't want anybody's. I don't want anyone to be sick. And then when you hear about, and when I did research on the effect these chemicals can have on your health, they're endocrine disruptors. So what does that mean?

It means that they mutate your genes over time and could lead to a lot of cancers that have to do with your hormones. And so if you look at the rise of all these cancers that are, it's unprecedented. And if you look at kind of like the industrialization of these chemicals, so they used to be used in warfare, then they put them in consumer products. And then you look at what's happened to human health. And you just look at some of these, you just see some of these graphs and it's really enlightening. And so I was like, there does not take a genius. And so I was like, where is all of this research? And it's all in these kind of academic studies in universities and in these research hospitals. And it's so hard to get this information. So there was this website called

Healthy Child, Healthy World.org. I hunted down this guy who authored this book and led this organization. And he was the first person, my first employee official, that I had advised me to figure out a solution. How old are you at this point? I was 28. So it's still pretty young. I was 28. And no experience in business. Because I had on her at 27. Right. So, I was probably 27 or 28. 27 or 28. And did you have any experience of business? No, I basically put together like it was kind of like a Pinterest board, but IRL.

It was like a collage, a scrapbook of here's literally every room in the home that needs to be touched that could have these products that could potentially be harmful. And it was like every room. And so that was probably now that I think about it, there's probably a blueprint or like the first step of my book. I wrote a book called The Honest Life. That was a way to kind of make it also not scary for people to make better decisions. And if you didn't have money, you could use vinegar and baking soda, frankly, and you could be good. And so there's ways where you don't, doesn't have to break the bank. And because I was also raised with no money and my parents really living paycheck to paycheck,

I felt like health shouldn't only be and peace of mind. and safety shouldn't just be for the 0.1%. You know, like, I know that I got to my, this place in my life where I had been successful. I always lived below my means. I saved my money. And I was fortunate enough to be in the situation I was in. But most people aren't.

And so I was like, it needs to be easier for people. So I gave a very lo-fi way to try and put together home. But the book didn't precede the brand, right? The book was a year after, but I wrote it during the formation of the brand. So what was that the first thing that you did? So you start doing all this research, you put this book together, you hire the guy, the consultant, and then what? And then I hired a woman to put my business plan together.

Were you paying for these people out of your own pocket? Yes. So I also wasn't acting any really. Because you just had a baby? I just had a baby. But then also, I just was focused on, I mean, I, when you're 27 and you just have a baby, you drop the weight pretty fast and you're fine.

You know, like it's different. You're good. You're good. You're good to go. And I was very, number one is not number three. No. Also,

I felt like it gave me this fuel to even, I became more ambitious. Yeah. In a weird way after I had my kids, I was like, now I have a reason. Before I was like, did the check clear.

Like, I was happy that, like, I was on that set and I got that job. Now it's about the quality. Mm-hmm. And it's about the quality. of the work and is this something I can be proud of? Well, and also, like, is this time away from my child worth it?

Worth it? Right? Because you're like, if it ain't, then what am I doing? Yeah, I'm out. And so my focus was really for about three and a half years, really not on the thing that would, frankly, make me more successful. And I turned down a lot of endorsements and things that also would have been much easier for me to do to do the thing that I felt like. I mean, I've always been pretty spiritual, but I really felt like it was my purpose. Did you feel like it was a calling? I did. Yeah. Yeah. When I was a kid and I was so desperate to figure out a way to have a different life than the one that I was raised in, I remember like a lot of prayers of like, God, if you give me an opportunity to be successful, I will do good for you. I will do good on the planet for people.

and I've always wanted to help mothers. I always wanted to help children. That was always, since I was little, what I wanted to do. And so building a brand that really is to safeguard human health that was launched and focused. I mean, the strategy, it made sense to focus on moms and children because moms really were running 70% over 70% of the household income

and making those choices and safeguarding their kids. So when did you realize that this, problem that you had could actually be a solution to a much bigger business issue. I just was, I knew how hard it was for me to even shop around this issue and to try and find better solutions. And there really wasn't a brand you can lean on. I mean, all these brands that even say, oh, they're, they're more natural. They still used synthetic fragrance. And so you're like, you just ruined it with a synthetic fragrance. Why? Or perfume or whatever, fragrance. And so, it was really hard to find things that didn't have that in it. I mean, it's nearly impossible. Or you

would find a totally traditionally formulated product that didn't have fragrance. But there was no, like, plant-based formula and no synthetic fragrance. That combination didn't exist. And at a good price point and beautifully designed, because why does it need to look like a billboard for a weird CPG brand? And these were really the or ultimately became the tenants of your brand, right? Beautiful packaging, absolutely affordable, no sacrifices on what we're trying to... On the effect, yeah, efficacious products. That was the biggest thing. I was like, I wanted to be as efficacious as a traditional product or more, because we were using new and leveraging different technologies that hadn't been leveraged yet.

And I really looked at a lot of the food categories as inspiration, because it's quite innovative. Yeah. When it comes to CPG. So what are you, Jessica, the actress do once you've got somebody to write your business plan and you've brought on a consultant. Do you remember? She didn't write the business plan that I asked her to write. So you started learning straight away about staffing then. Yep. And then I went to an investor that wanted to take like 60% of the business and infuse basically no capital. Oh, great investor. Love. And then I was like, yeah, no. And I went down like a two year journey with him and with her. And so then, and I spent so much of your own money. So much of my own money,

which, you know, what people don't realize is between like agents and managers and taxes, we only take home like around 30% of what we make. So I had to think about how much I had to make just to blow it on this idea. Yeah, and how much you had to work to get there. I mean, that's like crazy. Yeah, three and a half years of that. I now had like a baby. And also I imagine because at the time you were who you were, there was no shortage of people that were like, hey, like I see this opportunity, maybe more clearly, let me come and help you. All of a sudden, everybody's an expert. Oh, no, no. People were like, you're nuts. This will never happen. Did they really? Especially in Hollywood. Really? Yeah. How did that make you feel?

Terrible. And it confirmed, I already felt like I wasn't shit and I had imposter syndrome as an actress because no one looked like me. And every time I was like, do I even deserve to be here? And a lot of my choices, even though I know I'm an artist, were financially driven. And so I just felt... You mean your choices in like the projects that you took? A lot of them are like, I need the money. I need the money.

Because I was like being... Good for you. Struggling was just not an option. Yeah. I don't have a safety net. I am my own safety net. And so early in my career, it was like Hollywood already I didn't feel like had open arms for me. It was sort of, it was really the fans.

It was like, they saw me. They're like, oh, yeah, this is like a home girl that I like her. Like I see her. I like her. And so I had more of that relationship with the fans and like that consumer more than I would say who was in charge. And then when I was had this idea and I was like, and it's going to be a modern myth. and it's going to be like that. And here are the pillars and it's going to be transparent.

And we're going to call it honest and all of, and it took a while to even get to the word honest. It's a fantastic name, by the way. Thank you. So good. Thank you. Yeah. None of my reps really believed it could happen.

And some of them were actually quite patronizing and awful to me. Really? And so. Thinking it was like a bad use of your time. And also just like how, like please. Come on, girl. I was like bitch, please. Yeah.

Kind of attitude. Go back. Yeah. Like you're going to create a comfort. company, okay. You know, really, really patronizing. Did it fuel you, do you think? Was any a bit, or did it just push you further into? Oh, yeah. So then I was like, oh, I'm going to show them. I'm going to show these MF. I'm going to show them. They have no idea who they're messing with. So then it was like a fuel to the fire. And mind you, like, it's sort of like you walk the walk or like

you act like you are the thing before you're the thing. So I was like I manifested it by just like, I knew I was going to be successful, even though I was like inside. I was like, it's just felt like it just needed to exist. There was like this energy. Like when you talk about like purpose, like it just needed to exist. Like people, humanity needs this company, this consciousness that companies like this needed to exist. And I'm a capitalist.

Like I believe in business and I believe in people being able to build things from scratch and I love that I live in this country where I can be that. Like, you can come from anywhere, have an idea, you can create a business, and you can launch it. You know, that's amazing. It's not like that in other countries. No. It is like that here. And so I was like, I am the American dream. Like, why not? Just because I don't see a lot of people like me, like, who cares? And I'll show them, because maybe if I'm this, then maybe other little boys and girls will be like, yeah, that can be me one day, you know? So I did it in Hollywood. And then I was like, okay, well, I already did it once. So why not duty? And I already noticed like when people are betting against me. It took three

and a half years. I pitched this idea to this other guy that I brought on as a co-founder. He turned me down. He created legal Zoom. He created Shoe Dazzle. So he was like trying to pitch me on shoe dazzle. And I was, I've got better idea. And I was pitching him on the honest company. And then he went and got Kim to be the face of Shoe Dazzle. and launched that. It was very successful. And then I went back to him maybe a year, almost 18 months later. I pitched him again. But at that point, he had a kid. And he was like, my wife just threw out everything in our house. And he was like, maybe you're on to something. And I was like, I'm on to something. Talk to me about that, though, knowing that you needed a partner. Because

I feel like so many founders in the beginning, you don't know what you don't know. And I feel like it's so smart to be willing to say, you know what, I'm going to give up a piece of this thing. because it's better to have, I don't know, 50% of something than 0% and nothing. What was that thought process like to you? And how did you go and find this partner? Well, he was, I think Cash met him at like a poker game at his friend's house. And you were actively looking for a business partner at that point?

And I was actively looking for this. Because in the free years, what had happened? Well, I know that I'm also like, I'm not putting together a spreadsheet. Like, I'm not. You knew your limitations. I know my limitations. Like, I didn't go to business school. Like, that's not, I have, I'm a visionary, I have an idea, I have a concept. I'm the creative,

which by the way, that's very difficult to find someone with a good idea. And so. And also someone with the drive to make it happen, right? Because there's a lot of people with a lot of good ideas, but they don't all make it happen and take it off of a piece of paper. And then also having the humility to know what you're good at and what you're not. And then also being able to surround yourself with people that can highlight and, and lift up your best parts and then also be able to fill in what you're not good at, you know, and that you can become a whole. And you felt like you got this with that guy? I did because I knew I wanted to direct a consumer business because if I would have gone

with a retailer in order to get scale, it's hard to, so, you know, we were doing 17 products across three different product categories. And so even just those skews, you have to make a, there's a limited amount of skews that you even make that they'll even do a run of. So say it's 2000 or 10,000, right? So then where are you warehousing it? Who's going to distribute it? What shelf is it going to be on? And if you go with a retailer, they're going to say, we only want this cent, this one thing. We'll see if it works. And then maybe we'll open up to the other stuff. And I'm like, no, no, this concept is a lifestyle. This concept is bigger. If I'm just doing a laundry detergent or if I'm just doing one shampoo, that's not going to solve for the issue here because it's multiple assaults to your immune system from these chemicals that are in several different products. So you were trying to sell from the outset like a lifestyle. Like this is an alternative and you need the full thing.

All these different touch points of your life where you can be exposed to these chemicals that you don't need to be exposed to. And so help. Here's your sort of baseline needs met. And did this partner, was he a good partner for you? Was this someone that you were like, this is what I need at this time? He was great. I think I was a little disillusion because then he brought in someone else to be more of the operations president person. And so in total it was the four of us. And I thought all of us were in it for the long game. I thought all of us were building a legacy brand that our kids could be proud of. I didn't realize that two of them were much more short-term thinkers and much more let's raise as much capital with the least amount of dilution as humanly possible and take money

off the table as you go. And that was more of the business model than actually building the business. And do you think that that was just something that you didn't understand or it wasn't transparent? It wasn't transparent and I didn't understand it. I didn't understand that people could have different ideas or strategies on how they're going to launch a company. Like some people are just two and a half years, in and out, three max, and then onto the next and onto the next. And that's kind of what they do. And that wasn't very clear to me. I think it's a great lesson, though. And one of the things that whenever I invest in a new project or I start a new thing, I'm always very transparent about what it is that I'm trying to do. And I'm also trying to understand.

Because again, not every founder has the same idea. Everybody wants to build something and take it public. Some people are like, I just want to like pay my mum's mortgage and have like a really nice, comfortable life. And I'm like, that's fine too. But aligning those things is easier said than done. And you don't know what you don't know. And I think especially when you get into a business like honest, where it's very purpose. is driven, you imagine that you're all in it for the same good, right? It's all like we're trying to solve something here. We're trying to do something better for our kids and for humanity and different people have different agendas. Yeah, and that wasn't really. It's hard to get there.

And it wasn't clear until sort of the end of that journey and really knowing that I needed to get a new management team in place for the next phase of the company, which was really to go from a straight up direct-to-consumer business to a more CPG with traditional CPS. Yeah, and traditional capabilities as far as like sourcing operational capabilities. So we really needed our like raw material sourcing. We needed our chemists. We having a lab in house and being able to have the supply chain and the operations on lock is, I would say step one, two, and three.

importance, then it allows you to scale and deliver on a consistent basis the promise of the brand. Without that, it's very difficult. It must be impossible. Yeah. When you, so when you're in this situation where they're going out, they're raising a lot of money, like how were you able to keep a grip with what you were doing or were you even able to? There was a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of gripping. and I think I didn't sleep for, or seven days a week.

I didn't sleep for a long time, maybe 10 years. Because I guess coming from where you came from, that hits in a different place. It hits in a different place. You have a different relationship with money. I have a different relationship with money. And I have a different relationship with success. I don't have safety nets. And I had the vision of what this could be and it's so pure.

And so excellence is my like, bottom of, I start at excellent and then it just goes from there. And so I have, do you feel like coolness were being cut? I believe that not everyone operates with excellence or the same level of attention to detail that I do. Everything matters to me. Every detail is important. And it's just not that way with a lot of people. And I would look at it as like, oh, you want to fight today. Like I, every day, I was like, oh, we're fighting. Okay. I'm ready for this. And then I had to learn over the years that it didn't mean that they wanted to fight me

or they were necessarily trying to challenge me. They just aren't even there. Yeah. They operate from a different base level. Just a totally different base level. And I felt like, oh, I'm not smart because I didn't go to business school. I realized how smart I am. Yeah, nothing to do with it.

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Additional Terms, Conditions and Restrictions Apply. The start with yourself to kicks off on April 15th in New York City. Tickets are on sound now at emmagree.com. So as you start on this, like, I guess, like the journey of having these partners and changing, like, the shape of the business, where did your role go? Like, how did you fit into that new dynamic of where the management was at? I think I allowed the world to believe that my business partner came to me and hired me to be the face of the brand, similar to how he did with Kim or similar to how he did

with Robert Shapiro, because he did legal Zoom with Robert Shapiro. And I was like, no, no, I was when they came up with the idea and I tapped him to join me. It took me like three years to get there, though, because he had a fancy education. Like, he was, had a law degree. Like, I just felt, again, that imposter syndrome and it wasn't until a few circumstances where shit hit the fan and there, no one was looking at anybody but me. And it was- My name's on the door.

My name's on the door. I'm the face. And if these people don't have their ish together, no one's going to suffer but me. Because no one knows them. No one cares. So I was like, okay. So then I stepped into my power in a different way.

And I was like, okay, now that I realize I'm the only one who's me and this business, right? It was like, we're one. Yes. And I saw the wholeness of and the pure. of that relationship. Then it was just like, who are the players that are going to help take this to the next stage that it needs to be? And we're just putting the business first.

And I don't care about ego and I don't care about any of this other foolishness, including my own, because my own ego was telling me I wasn't good enough. Yeah. And so I had to throw that aside. This is an amazing lesson, I think, specifically for female founders, because there is this idea that somebody always knows better than you, that maybe you don't have, you know, like you said, I'm not so good at Excel. You're like, yeah, but it's like, you know what you.

you do know. And it's often enough. If you put any like logic or common sense of anything in front of me, like I can rip through it. You'll figure it out. Yeah, I figure it out. I process quickly. So it's, it's not brain surgery. Well, it's, but it's also a special founder mentality. This was your baby. This was your idea. Nobody can see it and have the vision like you would. But I think it's very interesting that in your position, you would imagine that there is like this man or someone that would have and could have known better than you. I also, I also really appreciate. appreciate and love the science. I love these different business models. And I loved thinking about these concepts of like what type of management team can take this vision to this next stage.

Do you need a COO? Do you need a CFO, CEO president? Maybe. Maybe not. Do you need a CIO or a CTO? Is it more important to have a technology person? How did you navigate those decisions? Innovations person, you know, who do you have? And you can only have so many people in C-suite, then you have your general counsel, which is very important. Very important. You know? We will need them. And you need your head of HR who's going to keep everyone happy. And so I learned as I went and I learned about all these different business models. And I asked a lot of questions. So I would like meet Cheryl Sandberg at a business conference. And I would just say, talk to me about infrastructure. Like you know in your mind that something.

needs to change. Like, how do you go about it and how do you do with the board versus the management team? And what if the management team, the business has outgrown the management team? Then what? Which always happens. And so it always happens. And that's like a good problem to have. Yeah, it's a great problem. And then who's going to hard to solve? Because there's a lot of like relationships, there's ego. People are not always in for the best of the business. They are in for the best of themselves. And so to navigate, so delicate. And then I'd sit down Diane von Dysonberg and be like, Diane? How do you deal with, you know, certain people that aren't necessarily aligned with you? When you're like, no, no, I need this to be like that.

Oh, Diane will tell you. No, she did. She'll tell you. And then I asked Tori Burch. And then I asked Ariana Huffington. But you went around. You found these women and you were like, I'm going to ask any question. I asked, I would, I would get three questions. I would never take up more than 15 minutes of their time. I would write down the questions that I had for them. And I forced them to mentor me. didn't want to. Melody Hobson as well. I just was like, I don't have mentors, no one to really, that really looks like me out here in these streets. And so I just have to force them. And then I would also ask guys, you know, because I'm like, what's the difference in how they operate? And it's a difference. Oh, there's a huge difference. They're like, I just taught them. And I'm like,

oh, yeah. Tell them to go to hell or tell them to do this or tell them to whatever. If they don't agree with you, if they behave this way, it's unacceptable. And I'm like, yeah, no, it's so different for women. We have to be really strong and capable, but then also really nice and friendly. Well, the expectation is very different for women. Yeah. My question is really, as you start to meet all of those very accomplished women and speak to men, how did you thrash out your own unique leadership style? And did you feel the pressure to be a kind, empathetic, female leader? I learned my softness much later. in my journey. Because like I said, in the beginning, I'm like, you want to fight me. That's why

you're not listening to me. Like, where this is, this is, let's go. And I always thought it was a very combative relationship with people when they wouldn't just, when they second guess me all the time. And they needed to always have five points of data to back up everything that I said. Yet, if other people said something, they would just do it. If they were a dude. And I was just like, oh, man, that's so no. Oh my God, I'm so irritated. And so then I would just get, I'd spiral and then I would just, then I would just fire off like, and then that overwhelms people.

So then I had, and then they would only give me 20 minutes in meetings. And to make 85 million decisions. Yes. And then if I had any feedback, they were like, oh, no, it's at stage three. There's no time for you team. Then we won't, then we won't make the launch. Well, then why are you bringing me in now? Yes.

So it would be, six months ago. Yeah. when it was still in like the first phase one. So. She's taking you back. So frustrating. But I learned about MPD, new product development processes.

I learned about processes who gets handed wood at what stage. I learned about, I mean, I went to business school by creating and building a business. Which I think is the only way that you can do. I mean, it's really interesting. I don't know the other way.

Yeah, I think you can have a concept of how to build a business and you can learn about them and blah, blah, blah. It's so different when you deal with people. Yes. Because people have emotions and emotions are not logical. And business conceptually is logic and math. But real business in real life is emotion and relationships. And it's all about people. It's all about people.

It's all about people. And it's very different and how to navigate. that is an art form. And so I don't know if I'm, if I've been the most nurturing warm hug. I think I've been more of like a good time inspiring, probably, because I have big ideas and I can come up with alternative solid solutions quickly. Like I love a challenge. Give it to me. I love a debate. bring it. And I think people aren't used to someone like me being able to be that way. But then on the same side, I also just really like getting mushy with people and going deep on emotions and learning about their journey and like what makes them tick and like, why are you here? I know you're working

in said department, but like what's your home life like? And I want to talk about it. No, and it's important because you need to be able to get the best out of your people and have to be able to be able to get the best out of your people and having some understanding, but it's just difficult to draw those lines. I also play people for a living. And so I have this anthropologist's sensibility. So I want to go in. I'm like, so are you a cat person? Oh, you have two.

Okay. Oh, and you have a roommate and your roommate's allergic to cats tell me more, you know? I love that. I say your parents didn't let you have cats here growing up. You're like, I've got you down. I know exactly this lady in HR is. Yeah, it's great, exactly. That's amazing.

And so I think I can, I'm not. And so I think I never fit the corporate bill. I'm not a corporate person. And so it was interesting to kind of be in that corporate, more traditional environment for such a long time. Because you really did build a big corporate company. It's very middle of the road, very corporate, very traditional in many, many ways. How many people were you at the height? I think it was 600.

Wow. A lot of people. And this is like warehousing and 3PLs and all of those things. All of the things. Yeah. But it was a big corporate company and you were really at the helm of that. I think around 200 is like a 250 is like a good amount. But still a lot.

Well, everyone always has their comfort levels. My thing is 20. I like 20. I like 20 max. 20 you know everyone's name. You know when everybody, you know everyone's cat's name. Yeah. Holiday parties are fun.

Yeah, yeah. It gets a lot less. fun after 20. I can say that. I agree. 20 is my, like, if I could build something tomorrow, I would never have more than 20, 20 people really at the helm. So what were you, what do you think your biggest learnings were from those early days? No more than 20 people. You're like, okay, no more than 20 people. HR, a CFO right away. Right away. Right away, yeah. That is my thing. I think HR CFO would be my first two hires. And then an ops person, because I don't know what kind of business I'm creating next, but those feel

really important. Because for me, it seems that you're the type of person, you know exactly what you want, but you need the right people around you just to shape it up. Is that? Exactly. Yeah. And make sure the numbers make sense and they continue to make sense and tell me before they stop making sense. Don't tell me after the fact because that gets on my dang nerves. Totally. Yeah, like let's get in front of it. Like, let's hold hands. Like, we're not being precious about this concept. Do you think that you had a good, understanding when you were out raising all of this money of where that was going to take you? Well, I think the way the business was built was in the digital first kind of business model is a

different business model. It's a growth model. So those... It's not about profitability. No, it's not about profitability. So having to take a company from a totally growth mindset and move it into a profitable mindset with a started with strong tech capabilities to a strong CPG capabilities. I mean, it literally transformed into a completely different company. And I would say this third phase with my, and I would, I think every CEO are the phases that I would, that I would think of that. How many CEOs have you had? I'm on my third.

That's pretty good going after 12, 13 years. Yeah. She's, she's the one where I can safely say, like, I can sleep at night. it's in good hands, she's golden. Like, she gets, she gets the mission of the company. She knows how to grow the business. She's very honest and transparent. Her ego isn't getting in the way of putting the business first and what's right for

the business. And how much of her suitability is actually about you as a founder, knowing what you need and what suits you versus the other ones that maybe weren't so well suited? Because I feel like I get better, hopefully, every year. year at choosing the right people to operate around me. I got better. It's not easy. I mean, it's not easy. You know until it doesn't work. You don't know until it doesn't work. Yeah. And that's the real. And someone can have been very successful on paper in another place and yet not be right for you. Often. Often. I think it's a very difficult balance to strike,

especially when you get to something that you were building this company, you took it public. It's a different sense of accountability. Yeah. Yeah. Accountability. That's one thing that I feel like with Carla, that I so appreciate is her conviction around accountability and her pride in accountability. It's really uncanny. And I think being a Afro-Latina in a very traditional CPG world and going up through the ranks, she's just had to put up with a lot of foolishness. And so there weren't probably as many safety net. in place for her as there may have been for others. That's interesting psychology as someone who's coming. Maybe. Maybe her lived experience as her moving through the world. It would make sense.

And her having to navigate it. LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot make your email response time faster. We can help you sell market and hire in one place. We cannot help you find space for your three desk drinks. Why do you have three? And while we can't help you find the perfect volume for your presentation video, LinkedIn can help you find the perfect audience for your business. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com slash small business. Welcome to Sephora.

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Get beauty from people who get beauty. Only at Sephora. Hi, I, let's get you a basket. There was somewhere I've read you described yourself as having an unnatural level of discipline. How has that helped you be successful as a founder? I would say maybe I was, maybe I worked it wrong. Perseverance.

I have an unnatural amount of perseverance. How so? I would say more. I push myself to the point where I'm like, literally if it doesn't kill me, it will make me stronger. And I put myself physically and emotionally to the brink of every edge. And I don't know how to not do that. I'm like the little rattlesnake, the baby.

That just releases all the vent. It doesn't know that you only need to do a little bit. Just a little bit. Yeah. You need to do your whole lifetime a better. So I just go hard on the paint all the time. So I'm... Does that show up in all areas of your life or specifically related to business?

No, I think it's in all areas. But I'm learning how to regulate a little bit more. And I think meditating has helped a lot. I do a lot of inner work and healing. And I think that helps because it's not sustainable. No, it's not. Do you think it's cost you personally, creatively? Yes.

Yeah. I think it also, when you have that level of that work ethic, of course you expect everyone else around you to operate that way, and it could be very depleting for your team. Because even though I work that way and I'll work to the bone and I can think of 98 tiny minute details, that's not how everybody's brain works or processes, and it just overwhelms them.

And so I've had to learn about reading the room. I've had to learn about reading a situation. I've had to learn how to just feed bits and pieces, although I was on the phone with my contractor this morning, and I really gave it to them. I was just supposed to talk about one thing. I gave me laundry. Here we go.

Thank you, Rattlesnake. There she goes. All of it. That's amazing. I mean, I ask you, has it costed you anything? Because again, I think we don't talk enough, A, about failure, but B about the costs. And you can look at you and go like, wow, she did this thing and she built this giant company. But it's never for nothing. There's never no trade-off. There's never something that you didn't give up in return.

Yeah, for sure. And I think even as a friend, I think I could be probably not the easiest friend. I'm generous. I believe I put all my friends on these pedestals and I only see their ultimate potential and I see that and I push that in them and I hold space for them also to be soft because there's not a lot of circumstances where we can be and having another woman hold space for another woman to be soft and to be fragile, especially when she's had to be a badass for her whole life to be successful. Like we have to out what what men don't realize is just, how hard it is for us to not just be women, but to have to be men times 10. Like, we have to really embody so much in being successful.

It's really quite wild. It is wild. And so my friends who have been successful and have built things in their lives, I now feel like it's almost my job to create almost like a womb environment where it's like, let's just cry together. let's just not be fucking perfect today. Let's just be... Oh, I love that. Let's just not be fucking perfect today. I'd like someone to say that to me at least once a week. Can you call me every Monday morning, please? Let's not be perfect today. But how do you practice that? Like, how does that

come up in your life? Like, how do you not be fucking perfect? Because honestly, like, the idea, looking at you, like, if I'm just like passing judgment, I didn't know you at all. And I do a little bit. So I know that that isn't everything. It's not everything of your personality. But how have you found the ways to not show up as perfect? And how have you allowed yourself that vulnerability? Well, I think kids, for me, kids have been very grounding as far as like showing you when you're not it, right?

And then for me, instead of getting upset and trying to keep up the facade, I'm like, you're right. I really didn't, I didn't say that right. I didn't show up for you. I could have worded that differently. I could have done this differently. I'm sorry, I'll do better next time. Please continue to tell me how I can be a better mom to you. I literally started taking my kids to therapy when they were like around 10. You did? Yeah. And I did it with them. Together, I was going to say as a family. And I would take the girls one on one. And I would say to the therapist, like this is meant for them to be able to tell me how I can be a better mom to them. Because I know they're upset about some things that I do.

And I know I want them to know that they won't get in trouble when they talk about it here. And I just want them to feel like they can express themselves in a real way. And I, you know, I just know that I think as you're finding your voice as a young woman to be able to have your mom say, like, validate you and validate your feelings. I just felt like maybe that could be something that can be kind of life-changing for them. Live-changed, like seriously life-changing. So I started that early. I didn't realize how hard it would be. I was going to say, do you agree to hear it?

I was like, oh, James. Okay, I did. Oh, shit, I did that, didn't I? They are mirrors. I'd be like, oh, God, yes, I did say that, that one. I really did do that. I remember Honor would say, like, stop treating me. like Haven. I'm like, I don't treat you like Haven. And then she was like, and this and this. And I was like, oh, dang, I really do just boop you.

Yeah. Because it's just easier. It's just like this smush of kids that I've got. And she's like, I'm three years older. She shouldn't be able to get the same privileges as me. It was like about like bedtime. No, I was literally just about to say that. Like I've had my kids going to bed at the same time forever because that was what's convenient for me. And I'm like, oh my goodness, it took my son to be like, mom, there's like a two year difference. And two years is big when you're, you know, eight and ten. I'm. I'm like, and 12 and 10. 12 and 10. I'm like three drop-offs, free bedtimes. I'm like, give me a break. That's the same. I would do the three, the three bedtime stories.

Yes. Or the cuddle time or they want to debrief their day. And then all of a sudden it would be midnight. And you're like, I'm so, I'm like a shell of myself. I just wanted to watch something on the TV. Or I've got work to do, more likely. I got work to do. Yeah.

Was the counseling with your kids in. reaction to how much you worked or was it just more about what is right for the family? Did you, like, I'm asking you if you had like big mom guilt. Yeah. I had big mom guilt and I'm always trying to do the most. And I was like, what do I wish I had when I was little? Because I saw some patterns in myself that I just didn't want to pass down to my kids. And I feel like a lot of it started when I I was going through puberty and I was starting to like, you know, it's kind of when your kids are individuating and so everything you say is wrong even when you're right, but it's not about being right. It's just about them individuating from you. Oh, that's the worst. And then when they like

listen to their damn friends and you're like, what does this 11 year old know about anything? But it's not even about that. Is it a 11 year old that's such an easy life? I'm like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. But it's actually really healthy for them to individuate and for them to feel safe enough to be able to push back on you and to know that you're not going anywhere. So I, you know, I had to learn that. A lot of humility. It's a gift for your kids, I think, especially, like you said, as young women having that,

not even just with their own mother, but having the ability to, like, give feedback in a safe space and in a safe way, that you're setting them up for their life. But then also, I would say, let go of perfection. And that really helped heal that onion back, where they saw their mom not perfect. And I show them it's okay to have flaws. And you can still be loved. Yeah. And you can still, you know, stand in your power and you can still take up space.

And you can be as flawed of a human being as it takes to learn and grow and be and exist and be truthful. And you're teaching them very early that you are just human because I think for so long we look at our parents as these like magical, mythical, mythical beings

that they should make no mistakes and it takes quite a long time to get to a point in your life where you're like, they're just humans, they're just like us, whereas your kids are learning that really quite young.

They're really like, popping them shovels, you're doing it like early on. Nobody's so healthy for them because they don't quite like hold you to an unrealistic standard. And I think for my mom, I was like 90,

years old raging at her and she's like, I had you when I was 21. I was just figuring it out, kiddo. You know, it's like had I had, had she been able to educate me in a different way for me to see her as more of a human being who wasn't, you know, always basking in this like light of being a perfectionist. I might have understood that earlier. Right. It's really healthy. It's really helpful. It's helped both of us. I would say it's also helped me let go of this idea of perfection. and then for them, it's modeling that for themselves. Have you let go of perfection? Yeah.

I still have standards that are at the highest level, but I'm not so relentless with the pursuit of them. That feels very evolved. It feels like a real grown-up thing to say, Jessica. I still have to breathe through it. I still have to breathe through it. Yeah. How do you think about success now?

Because I know in the early days when you're a founder, you have like a, usually as an entrepreneur, you have an idea of like this, when I get here, this is when I'll be successful. How has that evolved for you? For me, I just was like, if people trust us to bring us into their home, that was success.

And I would say that was, that's still success when it comes to honest. I mean, it's a pretty big one, isn't it? you trust us to bring us into your home and be part of your day-to-day life. And because we are interface with people in the most sort of like intimate and all those like in between moments. Yeah, the time in your life when you have a new baby, right? Or when you're washing your face, when you're looking at, you know, it's like you're alone time. There are all of these like really kind of precious daily moments. Yeah.

And so if you trust us, that's success to me. And that hasn't changed. changed. But success to me as a human now is how much I can get into my parasympathetic nervous system instead of my fighter flight. It's like the adrenaline or the cortisol. I don't want to be in, I don't want to be there. I want to be in this neutral space because there's something really liberating about that. And I didn't even realize that I could live in this in this in between. in space where I'm not either just totally drained or having to do the most. I think that that is so symptomatic of being a founder because you're on this like journey and it does feel like high lows, high lows, high lows constantly.

When do you think you've got there? But I think I've been like that my whole life. Really? Yeah. That's just who you are. I think so. That's how you're you're hardwired that way. So how did you find this kind of golden middle?

I don't find it often. But this is my pursuit. This is my pursuit on the daily, at least if I can get a little bit of it. I started meditating maybe seven years ago and really doing a lot of inner work around that time. My friend got sick with cancer. I'm sorry. Thank you. And so I think her journey, her health journey became my health journey. It was like a mirror almost.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, gosh, it just felt so close to home. Yeah, I also just did, I thought about just time differently and being present for my kids. And there's something when you're in a constant state of either like heightened cortisol or heightened adrenaline, you're just not, it's hard to be present. And the kids grow so fast. And these moments are so fleeting with them. I just want to like soak them up.

Yes. You know, because it's like this, my daughter's almost 17. How did that happen? I don't know. It's so bad. It's crazy. You're going to be a senior in high school. Like what's going on?

It's so hard. And I also because I'm just 34. I'm basically 28. What is it happening? She's like, my baby, I'm so proud of her. You must think. like I still see this little like, this little kid. She looked like a little fragile rock. She was just this little sweet little face and little teeth and her little voice and her wild hair.

But it was a decision that you made. You said like, I've got to draw the line somewhere. I'm going to take my health seriously. I'm going to start meditating and I'm going to live my life in a different way. Different way. Yeah, and you can't continue to do the same thing and expect different results. So I started to really prioritize my mental wellness in a different way. Was there like a moment where you were ever close to quitting or just giving up? In the beginning. Yeah. The beginning for sure.

Before it became something. Once you get a product in hand and once that product goes into someone's home and once you get the feedback, like the outpouring of people from people who have, I mean, the amount of people that have sensitive skin, that are like, thank you so much. I have sensitive skin. Everything, my skin reacts to everything. Your products are perfect for my skin or my child's skin. Beyond. You know, it's just like giving people that, that's quality of life, man. Yes. And then after that, then I'm like, it's worth it. It's all worth it. I can do it. I can go through it. I mean, I always think about it when we do those like volunteer days at baby to baby and there are quite literally mountains, like huge thousands and

thousands and tens of thousands of boxes of products, of honest products that you're giving away. And when you're in that situation where you can give away that much product for a good cause, I'm like, we embedded nonprofit and charity into our business model from day one with baby to baby. But it was never like, I didn't want that to be the reason why people bought honest. I just wanted it to be part of our culture. And it's just part of who we are as a brand. And it's amazing that all these years later that key tenets, of the company has remained, right? Because still to this day, it's like when I'm packing up those

bags, obviously we're both on the board of baby to baby, but it's like you do so much still. And I feel like that's something you can take great pride in. Yeah, it's cool. It's really nice to give away, but it's also really nice to stack money. And I want to talk to you about money for a second because obviously you didn't come from much. How has your relationship to money changed over the years? It really has changed from the scarcity mindset to abundance mindset. What does that mean for you? Thinking that every day was my last day of making money and I was never going to make another dime again. And so I had this like hustler thing of like, oh no, where's my next meal or oh no, am I going to have a roof over my head or oh no, am I going to be okay?

This like scarcely, like there was never going to be enough and it was going to sit, slip through my hands and just not having a safety net really or feeling like the floor was going to be pulled out from underneath me to. like, I'm on solid ground. I'm okay. I can breathe. I can look around. And I can think about, like, actually what brings me joy. Is the money a part of that? Yeah.

Don't you think? Yeah, I do think. I just think most people lie. Yeah, no. Money allows you to be exactly who you really are at your core. And when you are in survival mode, it's very difficult to be your truest self. Facts. Actual.

Factual facts. Yeah. Yes, because you're in survival mode. You have to make decisions that are otherwise outside of who you are and who you truly want to be. And money is greatly freeing in that sense. It's very liberating. It's just what it is. Wishing you could be there live for the big game, soaking up the atmosphere in the crowd.

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at thehartford.com slash small business. What's your behavior around money now? Do you invest? Like, do you invest in other businesses? Like, what do you do? Not as much as you. I wish I had as much as you to invest. No, I, um, I, you know, I invest. I advise. I love helping out and advising other women, especially in business, a purpose-driven businesses. Just because I've been through the trenches. Also, like, The VC to PE investors. Those are very different types of investors. And then you have the institutional investors.

And then you have Wall Street. They're all very different. Do you feel a sense, and I say this because I feel it myself, I feel a sense of obligation. Like I have to let people know because I had so much ignorance to all that stuff. And I learned the hard way. So I feel like I have to, it's like I'm running around like telling people. I wanted to, I try to be the person.

and I never had in my corner. Yeah. I imagine that you were very underestimated in some of those rooms. All of them. And continue to. You think still now? Oh, yeah. Even after everything that you've built and going public and ringing the bell and all the things.

I think unless someone like actually sits down with me and has a conversation with me, I think there's a bias around who I am and how I fit into the puzzle. Do you think even with you? Yeah, I mean, I know there is. I think we glitch people. They just, they're just like, there's no way you can be smart and capable and marketing and great ideas and visionary. And you understand supply chain and operations and how the business model works in order

for you to have a strong EBIT or whatever. They like can't, like, their mind are like, wait. In tech era, 100%. It's just like, yeah. It's just like, yeah. And so you have to allow for that to happen. I, you know, it's so interesting because I feel like I've so, that has happened to me so frequently in my life. At this point, I just blank it out.

I'm like, you must be a fool to underestimate me. Like, do you know, I'm like, how dumb are you? It just, you know, it doesn't even, I don't know, like it doesn't even touch the sides. I used to get so irritated. I used to get so irritated too. You know, it used to really, and more than irritate, you used to upset me. You're upset me. That's why I'd be like we're fighting.

In my meetings, I'd be like, we're here to fight. My question for you was that I wonder what you learned about asserting yourself in spaces where perhaps you weren't immediately taken at face value. Like, what do you tell other female founders and what did you learn about yourself? I learned that you have to know the fine print. You've got to know your numbers. You've got to understand your business model. You got to understand the two or three other business models that they're going to throw at you as examples of what you could be or what you could do.

And you had to give them three reasons why all of those won't work for your particular business. So you just have to know your business inside and out. And you have to understand the marketplace and how you differentiate inside of it. You have to know that. If you don't, there's no reason for you to be in those rooms. You got to be ready. You got to be ready. Yes.

Yeah. So preparation is. most important. And then once you're prepared, then there's nothing to fear. Then it's just nonsense. Then you can just ask them questions. Yeah. And that's it, right? Oftentimes I think I used to have this thing, I think it was Jens. I know it was Jens. He said it to me. He said, you know, you have an employee's mentality. And it drove me crazy because I was always going into these meetings, almost seeking somebody else giving me the answer. I was like constantly in sales mode. And when you learn to flip the table a little bit, and it's like, actually, we're all in this room because we all need something from this, it changes everything.

And that took me a really long time to learn. And arguably, I think, like, way longer than it should have. You know, I still went in as like a service provider into every room. And I was like, what am I doing? Like, I don't need to be here. You don't even sell them on it. They got it. They got it. And if they don't got it, they ain't my people. Like, so I'm not here. I don't have to sell everything all the time. I bet that way too. What's your biggest entrepreneurial lesson? Like, given everything that you have been through and learned, what do you think is like the one thing that you maybe wish you knew earlier? To trust my gut. Because even in the beginning, when I didn't have as much of a business acumen, I had instincts that told me if something was off, my like spidey sense.

Or this person is maybe not aligned. Or that meeting was a little bit, huh? that was weird. And instead of like spiraling or going through a back door, clocking it but not doing something about it, I would act on all of my gut instincts quicker. And I would say when someone's not a fit, there doesn't actually need to be any kind of bad feelings about it. It's just like you're going to have a much better time anywhere else but here. Because you're just not fit. You're just not. Exactly. Yeah. And it's not personal.

No, it's not personal. It's never personal. It's like, we've got to move on and you've got to do those things like really quickly. I think because of who you are and obviously how quickly that business grew, you were often under a lot of scrutiny. And I think that now, especially when you run businesses in this sort of age of cancel culture. Cancel culture and like social media and like all of the things. What did you learn and how did you create again because you kind of go into that panic mode? But when your brand It's also a strategy. It's also a strategy. Absolutely.

They're going to get you. They come in because that's how they can devalue you. Yes. And then they can swoop in and buy you at a discount. And that was happening to you? Sure. Shit. Did you know at the time or did you find that stuff out later?

Later. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. But it was so nefarious in the way it goes down. Yes. When stuff like that goes down. No, down.

And when you like unpack how it all goes down. Yeah, like look at the timing. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. It's very strategic. It's fine. Or you're a threat to their market share. And so they're like how can I.

Which was a real threat for a, for. Which is still a threat. Yeah, because I mean there was, I created this category. And I would say it's probably around consciousness, transparency, honesty. Like, what does that really mean? It doesn't mean. mean anything or it can mean everything. Do you sit there and can you say to yourself, I created this category? Like, can you, like, is that how you, because I, I mean, I definitely think so all that

time ago, but do you feel like you get credited for that? I don't care. Really? I think people are better off whether I get credit for it or not. Ultimately, I really care about human beings and whether they are going to have their best chance at life. And if their, they're, being exposed to things that can make them sick, it's going to be really hard to live a good life, no matter who you are. Because illness doesn't discriminate. And so for me, I was like, I just want people to have the best chance at life. And whether people want to credit me for that, I don't care.

Fair enough. You're a mission-driven company that actually made its mission. Yeah. No, congratulations. And if the market, if like all the big companies now have to think twice. Oh, and they do. Amazing. That's success. No, you almost like forced a revolution in how those companies get to operate and the level of transparency that we all have as an expectation.

Yes. It's like a baseline expectation now. We talk about success stories so freely. But if I were to ask you the story that you tell least, like what would that have been for you through this business journey? Maybe what I just said. Really? That I already got it. I'll take it. Yeah. I think I've never said that. Really? Out loud.

Okay, fine. I'll definitely take that one. It just like, rolled out. And I was like, wait, is that too much? No. I don't know. But it's not on a spire with Emma Greed. We are here for the business tea.

Like, we need this. No, because listen, I think that what happens, especially, I don't know, I hear very different conversations between my friends that are female entrepreneurs than what I hear my husband have. Because I think that for women, it's a lot more personal and that we believe when it fails, we're a failure. Yeah. And I don't believe any of that, by the way. I've failed multiple times and you don't put them on

Instagram in the same way. So maybe they don't get the same light. But I don't think it helps anyone walking around being like everything in my life is so amazing. And my kids are perfect. And they love the amount that they see me in my business. It's thriving when in fact, that's just not, it's never been the reality of my business journey. When Honor was in preschool, she was like, Mommy, why can't you be here like the other moms? I'm like, what do you mean? And she's, She's like, all the other moms are here for Halloween and you weren't. And I'm like, oh, it's not that I didn't want to be, you know, like, but I want to, but I'm here now. Yeah, right now.

But you weren't here yesterday or like, you weren't here the other day. And she like would name all these things. Like, damn, it's true, you know. How did you reconcile that? I cried. Yeah. How do you reconcile it? I cried.

And I, like, lay with them. And I stay up till midnight, giving them all their individual cuddles and going through their day and waiting until they are drooling on me until I leave a room and then go to the next room. And, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know exactly. It's really fucking hard. It's really hard.

Yeah. And you know that this time is so finite. So you want to give them these memories and these moments. Are there things you look back on and you go, I just got this so wrong? Yeah. Even just how I fit inside of the puzzle of my life and believing so many times that I was the provocateur, I was the villain in the story, when in fact, I was the one who just inspired change or I was the momentum. And if people aren't comfortable with momentum, they can view you however they want because you're now lighting a fire under their ass. They're happy just meandering in a pond, but you're moving forward.

And it could be a threat. It could feel like an assault. It could feel like a challenge. Yes. But you're just doing you. And I think for us, where we're on this momentum is, is our personality. It's our soul. It's our spirit. It's what we're here to do. We're not here to accept the way the world is operating around us. We're here to challenge, to push boundaries

and pioneer. And so if we're not doing it, we're not being true to our purpose and why we were put on this planet. And I think for a long time, because it makes, there's so few of us, and it makes a lot of people uncomfortable. A lot of people are. And I think we have to understand that we're not wrong, we're not bad, and we're actually fulfilling, it would be wrong if we didn't do what we're doing. I'm so glad you said that. That would be the wrong part. That's the only bit of it that would be truly wrong. I was thinking about maybe what you would say to other female founders, specifically now, given everything, you know. We have so many good ideas. I think we just have to believe in ourselves more. I think we're so untapped, even if you just think of like,

women of color who get funding for their startups, it's what, less than 3%. I think it's like less than 3%. Less than 0.3%. 1.3. It went down since the pandemic. It's really, really frightening and devastating at the same time. And isn't it more than 60% of the businesses that are created or created by women? They're all these small businesses, right? If you look at the number of new businesses started in the last 10 years,

it disproportionately is it's women female founders. And yet the funding gap is, I mean, we know what it is. Yeah. I mean, it's a joke, except it's not funny. No, it's actually. It's a really unfunny joke. But it's also like the systemic oppression that we can't ignore or deny. No, we cannot.

And I think that one of the main reasons that I wanted to start this podcast is, again, because so much of the information is shrouded in mystery, right? As women, we get these, like, glory stories and we see these amazing women and they're sitting at these offices and they look incredible. but we're not free to fail. And when we do fail, there's this horrible kind of like female founder pile

that you're put on and you're hung out to dry. Because there's so few of us that get a shot. Well, they're so, exactly. And so they want to use this as an example. And that's what drives me crazy because I know so many women

and I myself who have failed multiple times and you can come back. But you have to know that you've got permission to come back, right? And also, it's the only way to learn and grow. Yes. You don't learn by being successful. No, you do not.

No. In fact, it's the opposite. It's like all my best learnings are in the failures. Success covers a lot of shit, actually. You can have a really shitty company that's successful. It's no, but it's true, right? If you're failing, you tweak more, you learn more, you tinker with the model and you're like, until you figure it out. When things are too successful, you look back three years in and you're like, oh, shit. We've been ignoring a lot of problems. What have we been doing this whole time? I want to ask you because you talk a lot about therapy and your spiritual side. And I wonder how that impacts who you are, not just as a founder and an entrepreneur, but as a person and how you make choices as you go forward in your life. Like, what does that, what does that look like for you these days? It's allowed me to connect quicker. And I have more of a direct line to my intuition. And I think before it was like, is it in there? Is it real? Is that, am I.

just making it up, but it's like, it's very clear to me now and it's very direct. And it's, you know, I baked into my intuition, like, because of the way I think and process, there's always going to be logic. I'm always going to be pragmatic. I couldn't have come from where I came from and become who I've become without logic and being pragmatic and being a straight shooter and seeing things in black and white and facts, facts, facts, love facts. But on top of that, that the magic is the intuition. Yes. Yeah.

And that's what you said earlier. Like you would have listened to your gut. So now you're really tapping into that. Really tapped in. Yeah. Yeah. And allowing myself to not have this illusion of perfection. I'm really kind of now in my soft era, just being soft and being vulnerable,

which feels really unsafe. But I talked to this woman yesterday and she was like having emotions doesn't make you, you're not disregulated by having emotions, but having a safe space to express those emotions, that's when you know you're in a good place. And so I do feel like I've created a safe space to express emotions because I'm going to be angry, you're going to be happy, you're going to be sad. That's normal. That's normal.

But having the safe space to express. them freely without it completely disregulating everyone else. Yeah. You know, where it's like you can get it out, bah. And then you go back, you know, to your regularly scheduled program, whatever that is. But bottling it in, pretending like it doesn't exist, trying to be so together all the time and ultra control, that'll make you sick. Yeah, that'll really make you sick.

So soft life, Jessica, have another startup in her. I hope so. You do? Yeah. Right now, I'm really leaning hard on entertainment and producing and I'm going to be acting soon again. I mean, you are back out and, you know. And so I'm excited about that stuff. I loved telling stories and entertainment.

I can't help but be a marketing and branding person because I just, that's just how I operate, always have. It would be fun to create or to build on. business again. It's so fun. It's so fun. It's so fun. It's so fun. And it's like all those learnings and everything you've got on the early days. Getting it off the ground and all the unknowns. So nice. Yeah. As a mother of free, what are you teaching your kids about entrepreneurship and also about money? They do, I think, understand that money is freedom for them to be able to live how they want. And so think about being a responsible person and being a reliable person when you commit to said job, whatever that looks like for you. But I really want them to feel fulfilled and feel like they matter.

And whatever that looks like. And so maybe for one of them or all three of them, they don't need to have the same amount as, another and maybe it's more about experiential and maybe it's something else that brings them joy. I just want them to experience joy and feel good and not to be in survival mode. But I talked to them a lot about how I grew up and about survival mode. And so they know that that is something that people experience and they have been fortunate to not have to grow up in that environment. So they're very, I would say they have humility and I think that's good for them.

entrepreneurship. I think they've seen their father and me both create businesses out of ideas growing up with that. They see that modeled and we both have created pretty successful businesses. So they see that it's possible. Yes. So once you see it's possible and we look like them and then they're like, oh yeah, that can be us too. Yeah. I wonder if you stepping down has given you what you intended it to. Like are you in that place? now where you're like, I got what I needed? Yeah, you know, I have enough distance from it. Now, I think in the beginning, it was really hard, right? Because I felt still so like the cords. It's almost like the umbilical cord like with your kids, you know. And I still felt that attachment.

But I really feel like it's on its own doing its thing. I mean, honestly, I think it's just, I've always been impressed with you every time we've ever met. But I think that, you know, what you've done with that business and where you've come to personally, it really is something to be so proud of. And I think if your kids just take one little, one percent of that, like you could just be, you know, so happy with everything. It would all be entirely worth it. I just want them to feel loved by me. Well, I'm sure they do. Yeah. I'm sure they do. That's most important. No doubt. Thank you, my dear. I only have a very quick speed round of questions for you. Then we're done.

What is your morning ritual and your nighttime routine? Morning ritual is I wake up, I pound water, I meditate in bed. I usually have like two or three ready to go. And then I get my morning coffee and I work out. And then at night I do my skincare. I love cammingle tea at night. And so that like nighttime tea time, my, my skincare routine.

And then it depends if I have the kids with me. I usually have two of them in my room with me at any given time. Yeah. They sleep in your bed or they're just in your room? My son, sometimes I can convince him to sleep on the bed, but he loves sleeping on the ground and we have like a little bed on the ground. I don't know why. He just was like, no, Mom, I'm going to be on the ground here.

He's so cute. Just needs to be close to you. Havy sleeps with me usually, but once in a bloom on honor will. But yeah, usually Haven. So sweet. Okay, what is your current aspiration in business and what is it personally? My current aspiration in business, I don't know, I have, I don't have a focus yet on where to put that energy. But I feel like there'll be, not yet, not yet, not yet.

But I have to say love wellness and I love beauty. And so whatever that is. I'm not sure what that is yet. And what about personally? Personally, what do I aspire? I really aspire to stretch out my in-between moments as much as possible. That is a really wonderful thing to aspire to. I might steal that one. What is a book that's changed your life? I would say as for this podcast, start with why is a good one. Adam's book, Think Again.

Oh, that's a really good one. Adam Grant. He's very good. And leadership, the Eleanor Roosevelt way, is a really great one. I know that one too. Because you see this woman who grew up and was raised in a time where women were such second-class citizens in so many ways. And she was the rock, the anchor in this relationship. And what she did for veterans, what she did for civil rights, what she did for women, what she just did in that time. time and it wasn't a lot of time. And what she, she just did so much and she would not take no for answer. Someone to really look up to. What did you once prioritize that you no longer value? Control. What is something that you deeply value today that you overlooked in the past?

Snowballs. It's being cozy. Just being cozy. One of the best things. Thank you, my darling. This is heaven. You're so great. Thank you. Thank you. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you love with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emagreed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Green. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilliard Fisher, Derek Brown and me.

Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung Kaiser, Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Saluja, and Jenna Weiss Berman. Our producer is Kristen Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shorts. Angela Paluso is our Booker, original music by Charles Black, video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele,

Carlos Delgado, and Arnie Agassie. Social media by Olivia Holman. Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at Jones Works and W&E, Mora Curran, Josephina Francis,

Hillary Shuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Mico, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E, that's AspI-R-E-R-E with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emigreed.me.

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