Aspire with Emma Grede - How to Build a Beauty Brand People Believe In (ft. Tower 28, Danessa Myricks Beauty, Crown Affair)

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

It's easier than ever to launch a beauty brand—and harder than ever to make it last. In this first-ever Aspire founders roundtable, Danessa Myricks (Danessa Myricks Beauty), Dianna Cohen (Crown Affair), and Amy Liu (Tower 28) get honest about what it actually takes to build and scale a brand people believe in. These aren’t early ideas—they’re Sephora-scale businesses: Tower 28, launched in 2019, now with a reported $228 million valuation; Crown Affair, launched in 2020 and scaled from roughly 55 to 600 Sephora doors, with a dry shampoo that has ranked #1 in the category; and Danessa Myricks Beauty, a profitable-since-launch business that had already grown to roughly 500 SKUs before entering Sephora.From getting into Sephora and staying there, to raising capital vs. bootstrapping, to building community you can't reverse-engineer—this is the real playbook for 2026.In this episode, you’ll learn:What separates brands that last, and why launching is easy but sustaining is hardHow to build community with soul, purpose, and missionThe truth about retail and the operational and financial discipline it takes to scale in SephoraHow to fund your vision, what outside money is really for, and why finding aligned investors is keyHow founders evolve with intention and decide what to control, when to delegate, and different ways to lead a brand through growth

Today on Aspire, I'm doing something we've never done before, our first ever roundtable. I'm sitting down with three women who have built some of the most distinctive brands in beauty. Dinesa Myrex, founder of Dinesa Myrex Beauty, Amy Lou, founder of Tower 28, and Diana Cohen, founder of Crown Affair. They've all taken very different paths, different products, different customers, different approaches to funding and growth, but what connects them is an incredibly clear point of view. And that's really what this conversation is about. the mindset it takes to lead or create anything with conviction.

What I love most is how personal the conversation became. These women are so clear on what they believe, what they're willing to protect and where they're willing to let go. Whether you want to start a company or you're simply trying to build a life and career with more intention, there's so much here to learn from. Here we go. First of all, I cannot tell you, I've not been this excited since the first episode. welcome to our first ever roundtable on Aspire.

And I cannot think of three people I would rather speak to than the beautiful, incredible and talented three founders that we have around the table today. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you to be here. It feels like that. It really, really feels like that. Now, listen, I want to break straight in and we're going to talk about each of your businesses

specifically today. But we're going to go so much deeper than that, because what I wanted from this roundtable specifically was almost like a peek behind the curtain for our listeners. There are so many conversations that we have as founders in our group chats, maybe just with our best friends, but not necessarily out in the open where people can learn. And you guys are all at very different stages in your business. You all run the most incredible brands, but where you come from, where you are now, the decisions you've made have all been wildly different.

And I think beauty is just one of those spaces that feels unbelievably glamorous, but it appears that it's very easy to enter. Super easy to launch. It's super easy to launch. You see the viral TikToks, you see the Sephora sales, you see the influences, but actually launching and building something that actually lasts are two very, very different things. And so you three today, who have all built in completely different ways,

the wonderful one and only, Denise Meierrex, Diana Cohen, and Amy, all sitting with us. And I want to make sure that we just have as much of an open conversation as we can. And I knew that you three somehow would be the ones to do it. Today is not just another founder episode. What I want to understand is much more about the decisions that have made your businesses exactly what they are today. What mattered? What absolutely didn't matter? You might do it differently. When the money helped, what the money actually cost you, what changes when you scale. And we're all three of you know that would actually help the next founder on their journey. So let's actually just start right there because I want to make sure if you don't already know and buy

all three of these brands, you really should. But let's start there because it is really so difficult to build something that actually lasts. And if you wouldn't mind, can you just talk to me just a little bit about your brand, what it is that you do, and how you serve a community of women that were really, I would start off by saying we connect hearts and minds to beauty. And that sounds kind of ridiculous. But for me, it's literally at the baseline of everything. For me, the brand started because of how I was feeling as a human, not being seen, not being spoken to. And just through my journey as a woman and as an artist, I realize that there are a lot of people who felt the same way too. And a lot of people

like to narrow it down to like race or that I'm a woman, but it has nothing to do with that. there are so many people who no one talks to at all. They forget that they're there. I find the beauty industry talks at people, not to them. They tell them what they need to do as opposed to help them explore who they are. And so what I believe that I'm doing as a brand is, number one, having a conversation around beauty through a much broader lens, where everybody can be heard, see themselves in it, and know that they're being considered. And so what we do is we create multi-use products that are very problem solution. We bring fun back to makeup and also the biggest thing is we bring education to it because

so what, you show this beautiful shiny thing, but please tell me how to use it. And so we wrap all of that into just this really beautiful conversation around beauty. Yes, you do. And I use it every damn day. Every single day. It's the truth. Dinah, to you. I mean, I started Crown Affair because I realized how important hair is to all of us.

I think our relationship with our hair impacts how we move through the world. And like Dinesse just said, so much of beauty is yelling at you. And hair in particular uses such aggressive language, fix, tame, manage, repair. And it's like you come from this really disempowered place. And I love my stylist who I've seen for 15 years. And I love the art of hair. But 80% of the time, I'm just home. And I felt such a disconnection to these beautiful salon products I was using. But I felt like I didn't know how to actually use them at home. And hilariously, Crown Affair started from conversations with my friends who were like, what are you doing your hair, lay it down? I'm like, here's a Google Doc. There's a total nerd coming from, I'm like, I'm going to put this

in a little Google Doc. And I put together the 12 things that I swear by. This was pre-Tick-Tic-Tac days, but it did go viral for the time. And so many people were requesting to join. And that was kind of the light bulb moment for me of like, there's such a huge disconnection between like how we actually take care of ourselves and that hair is also a journey and it takes time. So the whole brand universe of Crown Affair is anchored around time as the core brand pillar. Time is our core currency. You can't get it back. It is the ultimate luxury. So it's a combination of creating this world that is about taking your time to take care of yourself, but also presenting the customer with really elegant and high performance solutions that give you your time back because I need time back like all of us.

Oh yeah, you do. And listen, if you don't have the hair tail, you are absolutely missing out. Like I never understood why I would need one and I got given one. I was like, that is genius. Like absolutely the most genius, simple, beautiful product. Totally. I used it last night. There you go. Full endorsement around the table. There it is. Amy, talk to us about Tower 20. Yeah. So I think similar to these two, I think so many of us have created brands around problems that we were trying to solve for ourselves. For me, I've been a long time beauty executive. So it's been at this point 24 years in the industry that I've had eczema for even longer than that. Being an executive and in a space where you're trying to go to market week meetings

and show the next best-selling skin-perfecting product that at the same time, you're like, wait a minute, my skin is really challenged myself, is really vulnerable. And so I was really looking for products that were not only clean and safe, but also high performance. And it was really hard to find those two things in the same product. And I grew up in an industry working for brands that had celebrity makeup artists. And I knew it had to be something that was really good. The bar had to be high from a performance perspective. But at the same time, I wanted something that could make my skin look better immediately and not worse in the long term. And then on top of that, I think the thing that we really do well is that we create this world. So Tower 20 is named after a real lifeguard

tower here in L.A. at the beach in Santa Monica. And so much of that is like a sign of safety. And I think so much of what we do is a love letter to the community, to the people who really have not perfect skin. There's a lot of makeup out there that is great for people who have perfect skin, but sometimes you need something that goes over a texture that goes over rosacea, exma. We're the only beauty brand that is 100% compliant with the National Exma Association. And now rosacea and psoriasis are both part of that too. We make skincare products and makeup products. And so really so much of what we do is just that it's kind of a love letter to my younger self. Oh, I love that.

Isn't that the way to start this? A love letter to your younger self? I have to tell you in my house, we're obsessed with the SOS spray. That's how my daughter who really needs a shout out because she's the number one Sephora Queen. She's the one who's telling me, Mom, here's what you need to be one.

But we're not going to give her credit for knowing you guys. But the Tower 28 SOS spray is something I use almost every single. single day. We absolutely adore it in our household. But one thing that I loved, as I started thinking about each of you, you had these incredible brands, but I met all of you through a seat at the table, through my dinner. And it was so amazing when I decided to put this together. I was like, I don't know if they know each other. I wonder if they like each other. They're not really competitive, but we're all competitive. We love each other. You do. I'm so happy that I just found that out 10 minutes before we started. I agree with chat last week was blowing up.

not need to see each other. Well, I hope that makes for an excellent conversation. So let's just dive straight in. So much has changed in this business, especially with the advent of social, especially as we think about the level of competition, it feels like a new brand is launching every single week. So is it actually harder than ever to build something that actually lasts? It's easier than ever to launch, and it is harder than ever to sustain and to stay.

Back in the day, there weren't so many, there wasn't money. available. There weren't contract manufacturers. There were department stores. And to survive in a department store was really a money game. So now there are, I mean, I heard there were 20 to 30,000 brands coming from Korea alone to America right now through basically TikTok, Amazon, all of young, et cetera. So I think it is very difficult right now. And how do you feel about that? First of all, I should ask you, do you agree? I think it's really hard to keep people's attention. Yeah. And so you have to dig a lot. deeper. I think it's going to be very difficult for a brand today to last if they don't have

more than just their product. One, it's so easy, well, for some people to copy some people's products, not ours. We kind of have a lot of undueables, but it's so easy for somebody to start tomorrow. Look at, oh, this is what she's doing. I'm going to make it really fast. There's always somebody who's going to make it for you. To get attention right now is so easy. You can buy it very easily with social. Like you can have zero followers and be viral tomorrow. So you need a lot more to make it stick. And I think the brands that are going to really last are the ones who are digging a lot deeper who have a different point of view in terms of who and how they're serving people and also that there's a connection to those people too. Absolutely, no doubt. We have to talk a lot

about what it actually takes for a brand to survive. But if you were starting your brand again today in 2026, would you? Like if you had zero to start with, would you do it right now? It's such a good question. When I launched Crown Affair in 2020, it was already starting to be a different game. It was six weeks before COVID. And what has happened in the last six and a half years is just,

I'm sure we all feel it. It's like the ground has shifted underneath us entirely. But that is why the soul and building something time with and with purpose matters. Because attention is the game now. It's the core currency. And I always say this. It's not just how many people you reach. it's how many people you move.

Yeah. And that could be with a message, like what you're doing. That could be with a product. And we all know product at the end of the day is king. I 100% is. But when you talk about attention, I also think the other thing that's so key and important in any brand is trust. And so when you start to see, you know,

so many of these, like influencer brands and, you know, people with big followings, like, I'd love to understand if somebody came to you tomorrow and said, I have this, like, giant community, this huge following, and they wanted to start a beauty brand. What's the first question you would actually even ask? Why? Why?

100%. There's a lot of reasons why you can start a brand. Some people will start a brand because they just want money. There's a lot of different ways to make money. And you can decide that you're going to use your money to just make a lot of money pumping out a lot of products. And that is a way. I don't think that's a forever way.

So I think everybody has to decide what kind of brand they're building. How long do they want to be here? How fast do you want to grow? And actually, you know, kind of impact you want to make, you know? I think that's all a big part of it. It's a huge part of it. So when you look at actually what it takes to make and create a successful brand, I want you guys to rank these things for me. Right? Product, branding, community, founder, story, retail distribution. Oh, that's hard. Go on just give me the free. What actually truly determines a brand success?

I think it's a little bit of everything, which is the hard thing to swallow because it used to be, like there was a period of time on, if you had a cute brand on Instagram, and you could just, like, feed Instagram and do paid ads, like you could win. Yeah. And that's not really true anymore. Like now you kind of need, like for me, for sure,

I didn't have any influence to begin with. And so being with Sephora really was so incredible for me because it created, they helped build the brand for me. They had a captive audience and they helped me tell the story. That was incredible. So some of it is, but like to the point of what you said earlier, if I had this huge following and I came in with that influence, maybe I wouldn't need the retail distribution as much.

Product is king no matter what you do. It doesn't matter what you're doing. If you have influence or not, you still have to have great product. But the stuff around it, I think it kind of is how you would rank order it is dependent on who you are and what you bring to the table. Isn't that hard to make a great product is the thing. Oh, contra fashion. Really?

You think so? I think they're amazing chemists and scientists who can make a great product. but you can't reverse engineer soul and purpose and mission and community. So I don't want to say extraordinary product is table stakes, but you will not be around if you don't have extraordinary products. So I don't want to say that's why it's not important, but that is like baseline. Yeah. It's the cost of entry.

It's the cost of entry, extraordinary product. I think what's really hard to reverse engineer and why people keep coming back is the soul, the purpose, the community. And we see this with community across the why. And I think it's really important to like not be everything. to everyone. Like know who you are making product for, know why you're showing up for them, help them, support them. Like, I really think that's what allows it to sustain. And I also think just like making timeless product. You have to realize that people will enter your brand at different

times. Like someone might enter a brand five years from now because it's their first big girl purchase in this category. You know, I see this all the time with hair. Like people really come into Sephora for makeup to play. It's so fine. I would buy all my makeup at Sephora growing up and building this category with them now. It's like you really have to understand the customer journey. And I think that's where all the other pieces of that equation come in. But you do need to do it all. I think some are more just table stakes now versus what you think about over time. So let's just talk about and dig into what community means because I feel like it's one of those things that's thrown around so much. And if you're all sitting here saying that it isn't necessarily

just about audience and following, then how do you distinguish a difference? Like what is community? And how do you create it, make it and keep it? Yeah, I think you have to know who. you are. I think you have to figure out what your authentic truth is and what resonates for your customer and why they're buying you. Because again, people are voting with their dollars, right? They're voting for what they believe in. And so I think so much of it is figuring out your lane and staying in it. And I was just telling Diana, we were on a panel a while ago and I've never forgot. I remember her saying like blinders up. Like you just have to have blinders up and you have to do your thing. Yeah. Meaning you're not taking in what's happening on the outside. It's like you have a single

minded purpose and you're going to do that. No one can be you. Everyone can have the same idea, but no one can be you. And I love what you just said, but what you said about community, just a little like at like, hey, ma, that to me is community, whether it's a neighbor or a group that you're a part of, like community is actually helping each other. And I think community, as you said, gets thrown around a lot. Is it an influencer dinner? Is it a this? Is it that, that is helpful for awareness, but real community is doing a solid for someone. And I want to be like, hey, use this, it's good. And I think that's what I come back to is like, how are you helping people? How are you spreading the gospel? And being on the ground and connecting with people, I think,

is like the most impactful way to build community. The pieces closest to your body have to meet a higher standard. Fabric, fit, structure, breathability. Those details matter because you feel them all day, even when no one else sees them. That's really the idea behind skims cotton. The everyday cotton brawlet and brief are a really good example. They're soft and breathable, but they still have enough structure to feel supportive. Nothing digs in, nothing feels overworked, and you're not adjusting them all day. You put them on and they do what they're supposed to do. That sounds simple, but in intimate, simple is hard to get right. The fabric has to sit smoothly under clothes. It has to move with you and hold its shape without asking for your attention. That's why cotton deserves more thought than

it usually gets. It's one of the most basic fabrics in a wardrobe, but when it's done properly, becomes the foundation everything else is built on. Shop all of my favorite skims pieces at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know that I sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop-down menu that follows. Tired of money advice that has you cutting out coffee while billionaires buy islands? Yeah, me too. I'm Vivian, you're at HBFF, and on Net Worth and Chill,

we're bringing you game-changing guests who've cracked the wealth code and are spilling their secrets. We're sitting down with your favorite celebs, industry experts, and influencers to talk all things, money. From salaries to taxes, nothing is off the table. Listen to Net Worth and Chill wherever you get your podcasts or on the Your Rich BFF YouTube channel. Talk to me about virality, right? Because it's one of those things that's thrown right. You've all had your viral moments, girls. We know them.

We saw them. But let's just talk about what actually happens when a product goes viral, when you have one of those viral moments. What happens once the algorithm moves on? Tell me what your teams are doing and tell me what happens like in that moment and then after that moment. I think, well, I know. Morality is a tricky thing because there's a super high that you get. But then there's a lot of low that no one else sees. And I think if you are viral at a point where you don't have operational excellence, everything can be dismantled and fall apart.

I also think if you're viral and you don't have strong community, that's problematic too. It's not just about the relationship you have with your community. It's the relationship that the people. within the community have with each other too. And I think it's important that you are leaning into that connectivity because when things go viral, there's always a good and a bad. And you want when you run out a product, you're waiting to run out of product because you will.

You will in your community to be like, you know, because there's going to be people who know nothing about you. The thing about morality is that you didn't have that time to nurture that person. They don't know who you are, why you're here or anything. they were introduced through a product. Somebody else saying something about a product. So those aren't really your people. So when those people come, now you have your community that's here for you.

And then you have all these other new people who could care less. You're a single mom of two and you've been building this brand for whatever. Like, where's my product? Or I've been waiting for two weeks. Or it's been six months or or or or or. And it's your community that's going to hold you down. Like, hey, don't worry. She's got you.

You can trust her. You can this. You can that. But also what happens inside your office is kind of messy too because the fight to get more product, you can lose a lot of customers not having, even if it's their favorite product, you can lose a lot of people not having that product available. So if you run out of a six-month supply of product in two days, like then what? How are you nurturing those people?

How are you keeping them with you? Those people had a problem that you were solving. Now they're looking for the solution somewhere else. So a lot comes with it. Diana, what is your experience of having viral moments and what's actually happening internally with the team at that point? I mean, there's been two moments. The first one is I do a twist and clip air dry technique that went viral. And I think that was crazy. The way that people comment and engage. And what's great about that is from a business perspective, it was a few different products that were starting to go viral. So we had a little bit more of an even heat with the inventory piece. But the dry shampoo, because we have the powder, translucent powder dry shampoo with the kabuki brush. it blew my mind, like number one dry shampoo at Sephora over all the big guys. And there's a few of us constantly kind of ranking each other over and over. But that was such a huge moment. And I think it's what do you do about it if you sell through the product? But then honestly, strategically going back to your core products, you need to have a few products. Like there are businesses and we all know them that it's like one skew, that's the business. But I think as a brand founder, if you're out there really thinking about the different ways someone can come into the brand. So maybe for us it's the dry shampoo. All right. also the tell, also the leaving conditioner.

Like if something's out of stock, I think it's just about building a strategy that's even heat. So when you do have that moment, it doesn't shake you and you have your foundation. Totally. I'm interested to understand because I do feel like community is such a double-edged sword and virality and social media. Like, you know, it's all one of the same thing, right? And it's either fully putting all the wind into your sales or it's like literally sucking the energy out of you. Depends on the day of the week for me. But I want to understand how you relate to and you think about feedback.

Like when your audience is perhaps not so happy with you, like how do you know and how do you think about instinct over like the available data and what's happening in the comment section? What does that actually look like? I think so much of it is exactly that. It's instinct. Like you can look at the data, but I think we as founders, we can also kind of feel it, right?

And I think, again, with feedback, so much of it is you have to think about who's saying it so you know how much of it is for you or for somebody else, right? Because I think we all have bad reviews. We have trolls. Sometimes the bad reviews are valid, right? There's something in there that you're like, oh, is there something I should glean from it? But I think, just to quickly go back to the problem with virality, I think it's getting the product into the wrong hands. And so if you get the product, and somebody buys them, they don't know why they're buying it. and they're maybe not the right person for that product. That is actually, I think, a lot of times

where you get that negative feedback because they're like, I'm using, so our SOS spray is a product that you know and love, but it's sitting in the makeup section. We are a makeup. Oh, so people trying to hold their makeup with it, like fixing spray? Oh, no, honey, so you use that after the jigs. You used it after you washed your face and you,

by the way, I'm sitting between my two favorite sprays right now. Oh, my room is amazing. very different use cases. Right. And so I think that is a problem with morality is you get something out there. But people don't really know if they buy it. They spray it. And they're like, I don't think it's that good of a setting spray.

I'm like, well, it's not a something spray. Right. And that's interesting because when you have something that's almost like a category defying products and you've actually got to teach and educate people what it is, how to use it, what the best use case is, that's a different thing. And if you're coming in because you're part of the community, you've taken the time with the brand to understand, to know what they're about. you're not, then you're absolutely right. It's tricky. It's really tricky. But that's why I love the

comment section. Because they will, you're in there, you're not too need it. Like from day one, I'm reading every comment, every DM, and I'm doing my own like gut math from the words that are saying. But I think when things go wrong and when somebody has a negative comment, the best thing to do is to respond to it. If one person is saying it, there's somebody else that's saying it or thinking it too. And so I want to talk to all of those people because one bad experience can turn them away from the brand as a whole, but just an educational moment can fix it all. So what does that look like? Give me an example. Give me a real example. I mean, one of our most viral products, the blurring bomb powder, which is like a, it's a new category.

It's a new product. Like there's nothing that existed like it before. There's no one for one. So there's lots of questions always. And when somebody has a bad experience, I go, right, I take their video, I clip it. I'll DM them and say exactly what happened. And I will clip their video and say, hey, did you guys see this video? She's actually right, you know, because this doesn't work when you do this, this, this or this. But if you do it this way, you're going to have the best experience. So here's what I love for you to do.

I want you to use it again. And I'm going to send you this and this to use with it. And then come back and tell me what your experience is. And whenever I do that, the comments are like, yeah, she's right. I use it every day. I've never had that happen because you use this instead of this. Like your community jumps in and then rallies with you. And then that thing doesn't just hang in the air.

There's no running from it. Like if you're confident about what you're making, who it's for to your point and you're there to educate, like it's not a problem for me. So good or bad, I'm responding. For sure. And I feel like there must be so many decisions that you make as founders that essentially your customer isn't going to understand.

And so I'd love to really know, when have you made a decision that perhaps, customers didn't initially understand, but you thought that it would be absolutely essential to what you were doing. Launching in Sephora. Yeah. Oh, dearly.

Same all. People like to call my brand, like the brand of the people, because the community literally built this brand with me. And a lot of people only know, like, the last few years of the brand, but I've been building the brand since early 2000s in my basement. So there are those people who are like, this, she's building for us. Like, she's building for the pros. Like, we've been there with her.

Like, I belong. to them. Because you're an artist. Yeah. It's like you are a makeup artist. You've been in the game for the longest time. People have a relationship to your work. Exactly. Then they have a relationship to you and then they have a relationship to the brand that you feel. Exactly. And they were like, oh, she's launching in Sephora. She's never going to make the kinds of things that she made before. She's going to dump things down. She's not going to be as interesting. Like those are all the things that came up at that moment. And it was a scary moment for me because I was like, wow, that is my core community and they're like, wow, she sold out a little bit. It wasn't everybody, but it was a lot of

people. So how did you deal with that in the moment? I'm interested because again, you are, you're beloved by your community. And when you've got a big opportunity like that on the table, there must be a part of you that goes, listen, I've been in my basement, but I don't want to stay in the basement, right? We need to come up. We need to get air. We need to like do things and we need to move forward. So what's the decision making look like? And at what point do you understand actually? I need to move forward for me and for the future and for all the customers that I'm yet to have. It's kind of like if you have a new baby.

When you have a new baby, you can't forget the old baby. You have to put in more work to let them know that you're here for them. I haven't forgot you. You're the reason why I get to have the new baby, right? So I had to double down for the community that was there for me. And I think a big thing that changed to is, you know, if anybody who followed me for a while,

I like being behind the scenes. I wasn't somebody who was on social and talking, and if I was, you only saw my fingers. But I think when I launched in Sephora, everything changed. I started having a conversation out loud with my community on social, and I think that made all the difference, because I didn't want them making assumptions of why I did a thing. I wanted them to know the soul behind and the reason why I did a thing.

I absolutely love that you talk about that, because I speak to so many first-time founders that are in their 40s or in their 50s, and they're like, Emma, I cannot do this social media thing. And I'm like, you can. You absolutely can. Now, you're going to find your lane. You don't have been needed to dancing and TikTok in and doing what the 20-year-olds are doing. But you found such a beautiful lane and a comfort level.

Like, it just feels like you, right? You have your way of speaking. Your artistry is on display. And you found your lane at your stage of life and the stage of your career that you're at that just makes so much sense for your brand. I love that you're able to do that. Diana, one of the things that I think about you is that you have such a distinct point of view that you really own. And you can really tell that you weren't following what was out there. You were like, here is a space that I believe should be occupied and I'm going to make the products

that I think will do well. And I think that there's so much power in having such a point of view and an area that you're passionate about. How do you know to go with your instinct over the trend that are happening. And how do you protect your own taste level when you're just starting out? It is the only way I want to build this thing is I want to make products and a brand universe that I want to occupy. And it's really hard. I have to tell you you have to like metaphorically sit on your hands because it's really easy to see what's working for someone else. Oh, that worked for them. Let me mimic them. Oh, that worked for them. And if it is not in alignment with who you are, even you mentioning the social media thing, like I don't sing and dance.

I don't really do that. I just don't. I just don't want to wake up doing that. And I love that I have friends who do that and it works for them. But it's the same with building a brand. You have to build it in alignment with who you are. And the taste piece has been really interesting because as you grow and scale and show up in places like a Sephora, I've gone through a very personal journey that's like my taste isn't everybody's taste. And the confidence over time that I've found, though, is like, my people find me and we find each other. Do you think that it's possible right now to build a major beauty brand without the founder being a public figure. I mean, I'm literally the founder that you just mentioned. I'm the woman who started at 40 and doesn't really do a ton of social media. I'm like literally the only person who doesn't have a social person filming content of me right now. Is that true? You don't? There's so many people here, girls, I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell. We're running the world. I don't know. I mean, I honestly look up to people who can do it. It's just not my lean. I actually love a podcast because I love a chat and I love depth and I love conversation. I've been on panels. There's a version of it that I show up in, but there's a version of it I don't. And I think that

has been a really conscious decision for me because it's not both what I enjoyed it too and it's not what I like to do. I just am good at it. But I love that you say that because even as you speak, like I am, I'm like in shock because I'm like, oh yeah, like you you don't because we just get so, you know, we're just like so in it and you literally just go like, that's not for me? No, I mean, I do a little bit of it, but I do the version of it that I am comfortable doing. So like I won't do like I get ready with me. I'll probably never sit there and put makeup on in front of a camera for you. But the version I do was I will tell my story and that's really true to me. But I think it's just like with Diana said, I'm not dancing. No, but you know what? Doing your makeup on camera is really hard and I give credit to all these people.

No, but I can't do it because I don't understand, like, where I'm supposed to look. Like, I need, like, a mirror. Like, when my team have asked me to do that with the fight, like, I can't. No, it's just, there's some things I think are generational. What I've found. Well, two things. One, you may not show your face, but you lead with your story. Your story is so clear.

And so I don't think there's anybody who doesn't know the origin of your brand. And I think being found forward is just another way of telling your story over it. You know what I mean? So I think for you, that makes sense. But I think, you know, what I've learned in my experience, I'm very introverted, but what I found is that it connects me deeper to my audience because they are that person too. So I struggled doing my makeup to camera. Guess what so do they? It's really about like what is this bigger story that you're trying to tell? For me, initially I was like, I started this business because I needed to make money and I needed to fuel like my family and I saw that there were people who are missing. But as I grow in the brand and this community grows. I know that there's more for me to offer this more that I want to give. There's more stories that I'm telling.

And so I know that there are a lot of women out there who are like me changing their whole life all over again at 30, at 40, who need to see somebody else doing that same thing. There are a lot of people who are just, frankly, just scared, just like I was. Seeing me show up makes them less scared. I know that my role as a founder is more than just building this brand. Like, I'm helping. a lot of people see themselves in a different perspective, a different way. Because they see me as a single mom who started her life all over many times being successful and showing up even when I'm scared,

they want to do it too. So I kind of, me showing up the way I do now is a little different because my purpose is bigger. Who I'm trying to serve has gotten bigger. It's not just the customer's consuming my product. It's a way bigger audience that I didn't. didn't know it was there. You have got that so right. Now, I really want to get into the nuts and bolts. There's some juice here and everybody knows I'm just like chumping it a bit to talk about money. Hello. I can't believe I made it this long. But what I really want to understand is fundamentally what changes within your business when a partner like a Sephora comes on board and what does it demand from your business operationally and financially. Because for so many people, that's where

things start to crumble, right? Even they're not finding the right retail distribution or they find it and they're like, damn, like this, there's, you know, it's not the right time in the business. So I'd really love to understand what that's meant for each of you and to talk about it in the most open and honest way that you can. Sephora made our business in such a big way. We went into, we launched in April of 2019. And like I said, I didn't have any. influence. So it was like an Instagram mood board and a Shopify template. And that's all it was. And I didn't even email my friends to tell them this happened. I was like, oh, let's just see what happens. And we were in Sephora.com by September. We were in every single store at Sephora on a half

shell by March of 2020. So we went into full distribution and we went in fast. And Sephora likes to say, and I think it's true, it's harder to get into Sephora than it is to get into Harvard. It is a really difficult. I had a background of working with Sephora for a long time, so I had relationships, but it didn't mean I knew I was going to get into Sephora, right? And when I got, no, and I didn't know if I was going to be able to stay. I mean, literally the whole time, I was like, even when we were in-safor.com, I was like, how many sales do I have to do?

Are you going to take away the in-store launch if I don't hit my numbers? And what is the expectation? Like, I'm like a good Asian girl. I'm like, what are the grades that I should be getting in order to stay here? You understand this because you've been on the other side. You're experienced at all of the incredible brands that you were at. You know how this is. So it's not surprising to you. We've all done it a little bit differently, but like I worked for other people for a long time and I really learned as like a number two and I got really close to founders and I had a seat at the table. And I think that was the way I got more comfortable with

jumping into it. But the thing that Sephora does, I think is really incredible is it really creates discipline because you then have to get on a track of like spring, summer, fall holiday. you have to know when you're going to ship product because it takes six weeks to get to, you know, everything becomes much more of a workback schedule and you have to get really organized. When you're on a D to C site, it's like, I don't know, what do you want to do? I live for D to C. So, fun fact, but Amy was the first founder, Sephora founder I talked to after I found out that we were going to be launching in Sephora. Amen.

And I remember standing on my balcony in Miami talking to Amy being like, what are all the things I need to know? because I came from D to C land. And by the way, I love our D2C e-commerce. Like when you were even talking about earlier, like there's so much we can do that is just harder to do at retail. Yeah. Whether that's like limited edition products. We have a cleansing scrub that is so extraordinary,

but we can't sell it in retail stores because the margins don't make sense. And I refuse to make the product worse. So there's certain things that I really get joy out of with D2C, but Sephora land is like, it is like it's that feeling like going to Disney in a way where it's like they're the best of doing this. they know exactly what they're doing. And when you enter that world, it is kind of like putting on your big girl pants. Yeah. No, for sure. You go from like, this is fun. This is cute to like, oh, we really need to show up. And I'd never like worked with Sep ever. It's so funny because

I remember founders texting me being like, your NCAP looks so beautiful. It looks so beautiful. I'm like, but it's so, it's not optimized. Like it was this beautiful art display, but it was not up to code, if you will, of like optimizing this stuff. So the last three years for me has just been a of like really understanding what works in store. It's been low and slow. I didn't have the choice. We didn't launch on next big thing. I know some people get next big thing. You get different exposures in the store and animations. We were given 55 N caps, which an N cap for those listening, you know, it's like a full, you know, a full proper shelf display. We had four shelves. But 55, I'm like, how are we going to reach people? All this marketing. They walk into stores. It's not there. But I'm so

grateful for this journey. And I say this to all the Sephora founders. If you can grow over time going from 55 doors to two years later, 200 doors. So then 600 doors and you get to go into the store and talk to the beauty advisors and educate. It really does take time and it is a big learning curve, but it is such a gift for us. It is an entirely new audience, an entirely new community. And I'm a little bit luckier because hair, I joke, is kind of like the Cinderella of the category. Like we're kind of, you know, the final, you know, category that people are coming in for. But to get people excited about that and build it with them has definitely changed my experience. I always say in retail, you want to earn and you want to learn.

And learning can't be done with anything other than time. And, Vanessa, I wonder if you can talk to because I feel like you are one of the brands in Sephora that actually brings in a bit of a different customer to perhaps what, you know, I guess the day-to-day bread and butter of who the Sephora customer is. And so in my mind and tell me if I'm wrong, like maybe slightly more of a bet, maybe, again, You felt the pushback, right, from your community. But there's also that question mark, I guess, as you go in, like, is a brand like this with this type of audience going to be successful?

100%. And it's so funny that you say that because when Seforo first reached out, it was like the end of 2019. Honestly, I missed like a million of their emails. They almost gave up on me because I was too busy building a business. I wasn't looking at any email. Gold up. It's that email.

So there's flats. Finally, I got like the one last, hey, do you want to come here or not? can we talk? But it was interesting because when they first presented it, I honestly, they would tell you that I was like, I don't think I'm nervous. I was like, because I've seen people launch in Sephora and fail. I've seen people who spent so much of their life building something on their own, their own DTC with their own audience, and they go there and everything falls apart. And so that was my biggest fear because at the time when we launched in Sephora. The brand has been around for 20 years already. This is the part that most people don't know.

I had 500 skews. Five hundred skews? Yeah. That's crazy. Like, on your own D-C, you can do whatever you want. I had a certain relationship with my audience. You want it? I got it. There was no six-month runway a year, two years to make a product. What shade do you need? All right, two weeks later. Guess what, guys? I got, you know, I had a different way of operating my business. I was like a true indie brand. And so I'm like, I go to Sephora. I'm going to be a fish out of water.

And then also our products were 100% different. There was no like-as. Anything that we had, there was no like-as in the store. And so it's kind of like getting married and moving into your husband's house. You're in somebody else's house right now. There's a whole new way that things work. It's not as comfortable. You have to learn a whole new way of being.

And in the beginning, there was a lot of tension. happy, healthy tension. It was never a fight. Tomorrow has been an amazing partner from day one. But it was me just fighting to stay who I was and to like hold on to my identity, like what this brand means and should look like for me versus, oh, but this is the amount of space that you have. And this is what we think will sell in our environment. And so honestly, the first year, even though we did really well, we grew super fast.

Like we went from dot com to the next big thing to Gondon to all. in the same year. Like, it was just like, because I think we were all surprised on how well we did. But that would, I think, the hardest year for me, because there was a lot of conversations on all of the products that I think make Denesemarix Beauty, what it is, is not in this store. But all of my attention has to go to Sephora because they're goals. They're the biggest. And so I can't like split my attention. I can't have multiple conversations. Like, what about all my other 400 skews? I can. only talk about the ones that Sephora took. And then initially we had that tiny one show

off on the next big thing. I wasn't really telling the full story of my brand. I honestly felt when we launched in Tefort, I started from scratch all over again because it is a net new customer. This is not the customer that the Nesimarex beauty had been servicing all over. So I had to learn how to re-communicate every single product so that it was digestible, like all of our assets, like things that I used to be able to say on social and everybody got. like what are you talking about literally I started all over so even though it was exciting it was a scariest thing for me and I almost like I was really afraid for like how we're showing up it took a lot of conversations for us to align on okay please just take this I know there's nothing like this in

your store but I guarantee you like that's what makes us special if you put it there you know just just trust me and when they did we were able to align on like like what we think the best fit is. That year, when we had that alignment, the brand four-exed in that one year. And I think that's the thing that everybody should understand. And you talked about what are those conversations? Like, this is a relationship, but there's give and take on both sides. And it needs to be healthy.

It needs to be done with kindness and with love. There needs to be proof points. Like when Sephora didn't want to launch something, I launched it on my DDC. And I'm like, see? I'm doing this. You guys can, you know, participate. in this too. It was a lot of that. There's real history in American fashion, and Macy's has pulled together a capsule this

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What does it really look like when you know there's a ton of money and a ton of opportunity on the other side of the table, but perhaps it ain't the thing that you thought you were going to do? I mean, honestly, I've made every mistake. So there are times that I... Oh, let's talk about it. There are times that I've gone and done what Sephora has asked us to, and there's times that I've kind of stuck a little bit more with my gut, and there's times that there's been a compromise, and it's a little bit of everything, right?

And the truth is, like, when you're doing really well and you're hot, they are much more amenable to what you want to do, right? And sometimes you're not right. So, like, for instance, we launched a product that was so juicy and, like, melty, and I loved it on my lips. and then we launched it in a Sephora Favorites kit, and we started looking at the actual reviews, and the reviews were either like, basically like a one or a five,

and it was like, I love it, I love it, or that shit melted in my bag. And I was like, oh, my God, this is my worst nightmare that it melted. And so we actually, and the truck was still coming. It was in the truck, because we had only done the Sephora Favorites, which was like, I don't know, 20,000 pieces, but like the actual single skew was still being delivered. and I was like, stop the truck, do not receive, turn that shit back around. And an expensive mistake.

And it's an expensive mistake. But like sometimes you don't see the thing that is real because you don't want to see it. Like I loved it. But like when I really thought about it, I didn't, we didn't do the full like testing to like see what we, after that we sent it to Arizona in the heat and a ship test. And we were like, did it melt? Yeah, guess what it did. But it's so interesting that you had the conviction to turn the truck around. and having that conviction to say, this thing isn't right, and I'm going to go left when

everyone wants you to go right is such a huge job of a founder. But it takes a lot of guts. But nobody else can make that decision. Nobody else can make that decision. And it goes back to what you said in the beginning. It's trust. And that is the thing that you spend so much effort building the trust of the customer that, but it's so easy to lose it.

Diana, give me an expensive mistake. Tell me what you're done wrong. You know, it's so, I mean, I'm so intense about our product. ingredient quality, like everything. And by the way, I remember being like, we're launching a leave-in and it's in glass. Like, that was crazy to people. Like, the quality of the component, I want it to reflect what's inside. Like, all of this stuff really matters to me. So there have been many times where, like, we've had to just evolve what we're doing because it's at a scale. You know, it's just you have to be really intentional about it. But I will never ship anything.

My whole thing is like, I want it to arrive at your door or you get it at Sephora. And you're like, the value of what this is. It's so good. I think that's what we have to remember as founders is like, we're coming in with our soul and creative expression. And when you decide to partner with a retailer like Sephora, they're actually just trying to make you better. And they're trying to like refine. And actually this creative exercise to synthesize what it is you're doing to more people changes your life. It's changed my life. It's changed all of our lives. You can still make the thing on your D to C. And I think that's what you need to remember creatively. But what happens if you've got a great product, if you've built with conviction, if you've done what your heart desires and you feel

that you've got a community and you have something special, but you don't get the Sephora moment. Ben Warr. I actually think the hardest thing in business is like, not if you fail or if you succeed, but it's that middle. It's that middle area where it's just like, you get one hit, but you're like, it's not quite enough.

And is it something that you should stick with or not? Like, that ambiguity is really hard. Facts. I mean, when you fail, at least it's definite. Yeah. You're like, this shit don't work. But you're absolutely right. When you go selling the kind of tracks and every now and again there's a glimmer of light and you're like,

but it's kind of nearly there. Like that's so hard. The thing that I would say my husband really did for me at the beginning, because we did put some of our personal money into it. But very clearly at the beginning, he was like, we have five years max that we're going to try this and we're going to do it for like and how much money. Like where are we going to top off on this? And I think having some boundaries like that really, for me, it helped. No doubt.

for a relationship too. I deeply believe that what is not meant for you will not miss you. And you have to trust that. And I know there are a lot of people probably listening right now and are like, all I dream, my dream is to get into Sephora. I think if it's right and the timing lines, it will work.

But in the meantime, just keep showing up every day, one inch at a time. And as you build the business, people will go in and ask for it. And it's you just, you cannot abandon yourself. You have to keep going.

And if it's supposed to happen, it will. Like, I really believe that. 20 years on DTC. Come on. What I would tell anybody who's looking to start right now is to take time out of the equation. Just take it out of the equation. Do what you can, but what you have right now and just, you know, allow your journey to unfold for you. I love that quote.

As you begin to walk on the way, the way appears, that literally defines my entire journey as a founder. Just take a step, do a thing. You learn. You fail. You win. you learn, you take another step, you do a thing, it kind of unravels for you. As soon as you start looking, all of your intuition disappears. When you start looking from side to side, and I think a brand's magic is their intuition.

You know, just hearing you guys tell the stories about the mistakes and the products that you believed in and no matter what, you want to keep this on DTC because that you believe in that, you know, I've had so many of those stories too. Like our top selling skew is the skew that nobody believed in. nobody wanted me to launch it nobody wanted me to launch a bomb powder the name is too long what is a bomb and a powder is it a powder or a bomb you're in Sephora you have to tell them if it's a bomb or is it a powder

it cannot be both like there's a universal and this tinted no just launch the universal no my gut tells me this is how I see it this is the way I know it's going to work that intuition and that gut is so important it's what defines you and your brand so yeah

Tunnel vision. Totally. Knowing what's true and what's right for you and just patience. Patience is a gift I wish I can give every founder.

Creating your own definition of success is really important. We don't need to be like billion dollar brands. Like the idea of everyone needing to be a billion dollar brand I think is one that

is really hard to compete with but my husband always says he's like, I thought you were going to be selling products at farmers market. This is great. I didn't know what you were going to do. And I'm like,

and they say that like, you know, happiness is like difference between expectations and reality. Absolutely. Right. And like your expectations move as things move. But like that's what I love about what you said. It's like have like that thing in front of you and do have high expectations. And then it's okay if they move, but it's also okay if you can like get it to stop moving. And maybe like a nice lifestyle business is great. Yeah. For you and your family. I mean, I feel like this is exactly what I wrote about in start with yourself. It's like if you have a vision for what

type of life you want, what type of business you want to run. And then you're able to just say, and this thing is going to just take some time. The way that you come into it, the anxiety dissipates, it's like because all of a sudden you're like, great, this thing, I'm going to enjoy the actual work. I'm going to enjoy what it takes, the journey that I'm on to get there. I'm going to take the highs. I'm going to take the lows. But the thing that bothers me the most is that so many people just don't start and specifically women. And I think the big thing about everyone sitting around this table, we started. You got out the gate and you just had a go. And that's going to lead me to the next subject because we're going to talk about money. Because so often, so, so, so often,

the conversation that I have with founders and aspiring founders is I just don't know where to start. I just don't understand the piece about the money. And what's beautiful about the three of you is that you all have funded your businesses in extremely different ways. And I want to understand the choices that have shaped the companies that you are each able to build. Now, Dinesa, we have heard that, you know, you had this company for so long and you bootstrapped to the company to make 500 skews, which I still, we'll talk about that later, but you spent years funding the company yourself. Amy, you took a very, very different route because you had this incredible and very impressive career. And then you built all of that up with kind of like this decades of knowledge.

And then you decided, okay, I'm going to go out later in the brand after bootstrapping and having the boundaries that you and your husband set together. But then you went out and you raised a significant amount of capital. And then Diana, again, very, very, very differently, you actually raised outside money from the outset, from the beginning. So we really have all the ways, all of the things here. Now, before we get into kind of like the individual experience, is what do you guys actually believe outside capital is actually for? And can you just talk to the audience about your appreciation and understanding of that as people that have actually taken outside capital? Yeah, I think that's saying when they say money will make you more of what you are.

When you bring money in, if you are not like buttoned up, if you do not have operational excellence, if you do not have clarity about who you are and where you're going, If you don't know what the next three and five years look like, you're in a lot of trouble. You're just kind of like burning someone else's cash. You're like gambling with somebody else's money. I really do think that from my point of view, you should understand. And I think all experiences are different. For me, I was never ready to take money.

If somebody gave it to me, the brand wouldn't exist today. There was so much I needed to learn first. For me, I was building the plane as I flew it. And so the evolution of what my brand looks, looked like was so different year over year. I think when the money came, it was time because that money was used to scale. I couldn't go any further without it. You know, I couldn't just be a solopreneur doing all of the jobs. At the point we were in the business, I needed to bring on team, we wouldn't be able to grow any more in the space that we were. We would run out of cash.

If we wanted to grow more, there's not enough cash to fuel it. At the end of the day, you were fueling your business through your outside artistry, right? It's like you are a working makeup artist. Oh, yeah. But I want to understand that what did bootstrapping actually force you to do within your business? And how did you, like, what did you become, like, disciplined about? Oh, everything. Because when people ask me, how much money did you start your business with? It's zero. I had an idea. I wanted to do this thing. But guess what? Next week, I have to go do a job. And then when I get that check, I need to decide how much is going to feel. my family and then how much I'm going to use to invest in this business. And then literally

week over week, that's how I built the brand. So when it's your money coming out of your pocket and it's like your children's food money, you think about that money a lot differently. So discipline at the highest level. So talk to me about what your investors actually were able to do for you because I feel like, you know, sometimes you get investors that are just about the money. Sometimes you get investors that are really like proficient around distribution. Some of them are like operational whizzes and they'll actually come into your business and help you with certain functions of the business. What has worked for you? Oh my goodness. I'm obsessed with our investors because they are operational wizards. And I think the biggest value they bought is helping us

to build team because they know what it takes to take you from A to B, from B to C. They know the quality of the person. They know what the infrastructure needs to look like. And that's, those are things I would have never known. I would have made mistakes all through that. And so it's like they got in front of that and told me stories and gave me examples and allowed me to choose. And I think that was really beautiful that we work on this together as a team. But the people, like the right CFO, the right, you know, operators. I would encourage anybody to start there first, because I kind of did it backwards, you know. From a team perspective?

Yeah, from the team perspective. I was just excited that people were excited with me. And, you know, you love what I'm trying to build and my spirit and my heart. Come on. Come on in. Let's do it together. No one's giving you an opportunity. I want to be that woman that gives you the opportunity.

Oh, Lord. And I'm so grateful for every team member that has ever been with me. But I also, I think I destroyed a lot of people too along the way because I was putting people in roles that they weren't ready for or they didn't have the expertise for. And like that breaks my heart. Now, you know, hindsight is 2020. So I would tell everybody to start with your leaders first. That's one thing that, you know, our investors trained me on. And it makes the most sense. That operational excellence, that expertise in those key areas, those leaders first. Start with your leaders. Start with your leaders. It makes all the difference.

That's expensive. And that's why people that have to raise money. That's why I raise capital because my now CEO was my first hire. She's been with me for seven years. There was no pot of gold for me. I needed to raise capital. And had I not taken on that capital, I would not have been able to hire Elaine. And she has been with me this whole time and keep going. And that was part of why I decided to do it before launching.

But I'm really interested in that because raising capital from the outset is really taking a huge bet on yourself. Right. And because you don't know what you don't know at that point. But to your point, you would never have been able to bring in that CEO at that period, had you not, you know, been able to raise that capital. What else did the money allow you to do that otherwise would have been an impossibility? You know, first of all, and to your earlier question, like, what does money even allow you to do? Money is rocket fuel. But if you put it into the rocket and shoot it and don't know where you're aiming the rocket, you're going to go in the wrong place.

So my philosophy around fundraising in general is raise as you go. So I came from high-growth venture-backed startups. It's also all I ever knew. You know, I was the eighth employee at a way. In the glory days in that, Dave. You see the good, the bad, the ugly, the most insane side of it, right? All of it. It's true.

And you know, these companies were almost acting like they were tech companies. Yeah. And they were not. So raising $100 million for whatever it was, a luggage company, a mattress company. The math was not mathing, to put it very gently. So by the time that I came in, I'm like, okay, let me actually breathe. this down very tactically. How much are wages going to cost? How much is the first

inventory order going to cost? How much would it cost to set up the website? How much does it cost to build out the brand? And there are a lot of startup costs. These are not recurring costs. You don't need to rebrand the company every year. So I literally broke it down line by line and was like, that gets me to like one and a half million. And what did you raise from the outset? So I raised $2 million. She gave us up a little bit of runway. She did a

map and then went, you know, it's funny. It was 1.7 and I think a lot of people didn't believe it us. I actually really only had three investors from the outset. And then once we launched, people were like, can I get in? Yeah. Do you know it's absolutely true that it's harder to raise $2 million than it is to raise $20 or $200? Let me tell you, because the funds that you're talking to are so much smaller. And so it becomes a bigger piece of their pie and I stand by that. It's really hard to raise $2 million bucks. I really want to know your journey because it's again very, very different from everybody else. You really understood beauty operations, right? It's like that was your role.

and you knew what it would take to scale a business like this. And I'm wondering if that experience actually made you more conservative or more bullish when it came to going out, A, first putting your own money in, but also then when it came to this pretty sizable raise that you did, like how did your past experience lend to that? I mean, I think the commonality here is you do what you need to do and you do it based on what you already know, right? Like, I did not have the precedence.

Maybe I saw these tech companies raising money on the news, but I didn't think that that was a possibility for me. I didn't know that that was anyone would let me raise money, right? So it just didn't feel, it felt too far away from me. So when I raised my initial money, which was $500,000, I did it through friends and family. I wouldn't, but I knew I needed to raise money because I knew I also wasn't somebody who would be able to make that trade off mentally about my kids eating or not or whatever it was. like that just wasn't in my mental capacity, right? Like I wasn't able to put it on my credit card. That's just not the way I wasn't able to take that kind of risk. And so I knew that I wanted to raise money. I think it did. I was always really conservative, but that probably becomes less

from the work and more from my upbringing that I was raised in a family that was like never have any debt, always be able to pay for yourself, always have savings. And I think that was one of the things I really had to learn. And honestly, I'm still learning. I'm still learning how to like take bigger bets and like test and learn and be able to spend it a little bit more freely to see it coming back. And I think that was also the reason why I ended up raising money the second time. And I took on an institutional investor was because honestly, the numbers just got big. So we went from, you know, we launched and we doubled or tripled every single year for years up until 24 to 25. And then at the second round, you raised what, like $28 million or something

around that? Yeah. It was in that ballpark. Yeah. And but that was something. I waited until, frankly, I didn't honestly need the money. So what I was raising was really smart money. I was raising to find a partner that could help me see around the corners because I was in a state where I was like, I've never been in a business that was bigger than 50. And now we're north of 100. It's a different ballgame.

And to your point, like, I don't think that I know everything. And so I was really looking for someone who could help me figure out this next piece of the pie. And I think that's really what I've gotten from it. So what are you looking for beyond? the check. So I really wasn't looking for the check to be honest with you, right? But you did raise 28 million bucks. So I wanted to have the, we were really profitable already at that point. I wanted to have the cash to be able to do more things that I wanted to do, like hire people. I also took some money off the table, if I'm being honest. Smart. Thank you very much at that point.

And honestly, we took the money off the table and did nothing with it. And I was like, because everyone told me, don't, like, just take a year and figure out what you're going to do and how you're going to feel about it. So at first, we really didn't do anything with it. And then when we were in the palisades and that happened, I cannot tell you how good it felt to be able to buy another house and to just be able to, like, take care of my own problems.

Like, that was the first time I really was like, wow, this is what money is for. This is what it can do for you. And I felt so grateful to the business and to my partner at that time, too, that they were able to make that happen. But I think the thing that I did by waiting until I didn't need the money, but our business was like honestly in such a good position, I had a lot of choices from who I was going to raise money from. And the thing that I did that I think people can hopefully learn from is if you do it at that point,

first I dated for a long time, right? Like all of the, when at that time, like from the beginning, like anytime I saw someone at a conference, you're like, okay, and I would do what you're saying. I would back channel. I'm like, hey, they invest, what are they like as a portfolio company as an investor? And so I paid attention.

When I got to the point that I was ready to invest, I only went to six private equity groups. And I said, okay, I'm ready. Do you want in? I'm going to give you access to a data room. I will give you one hour of my time. Here's a mad libs of what the term sheet is going to look like. I have never done that shit.

That's unbelievable. I was like, I want control, control and control. Why was that important to you? Like to control the process in that way? Because I think, again, you learn from what you see. And I had been in businesses with other founders where I saw them lose control. And I was like, that's not going to happen to me. Your name is on the product and you are losing control.

And I saw it happening as an employee and I was in those board meetings. And I was like, I don't want that. No, I love it. And I only ask because I really believe in the adage. that how you start is how it goes. And so when you are managing a process like that, they know who they're getting into business with, right? They understand that this is not a company

that they're coming and taking, like, for a responsibility for they're going to take advantage of. It's very interesting. Well, and to that point, like, I didn't need the money, and I technically didn't need the partner, right? So they knew that I knew I had leverage in that moment. And for me, I really feel like I chose an investor that really cares.

She has been an operator, and it's a woman. And those are all things that are important to me. And so I actually did not go with the highest valuation, but I did go back to her and I say, I got another higher valuation at some point, you know what I mean, and like tried to negotiate a little bit differently. But I think ultimately you do what you know, right?

And so some of it is like you're trying to not repeat a mistake that you saw, and then you're also trying to make sure that you keep whatever you need. And for me, it was control. I wanted control of the company. I think the most important thing, especially early on, is philosophical alignment with growth. Because you have to realize, I took, by way, I've taken over 400, 500 investor meetings at this point in my career.

I would walk into there and being like, oh, you worked at all these D to C darlings. Do you want to build this in hair? And I'm like the opposite of it. I don't think spending a million dollars and making a million dollars is a good business. You need to be so much more efficient. So A, that and B, I knew I wanted to build a genuinely prestige

brand. This is not a growth hack. I'm not trying to trick anybody. I just want to build quality products. So it took, kissed a lot of frogs to get to my first investor who like saw what we were doing. And to this day has been the best investor. He is like, you need me. Not going to bother you. I think there's a lot of pixel pushers out there. Not all money is created equal. It does change as you grow. But my advice for founders, if you are looking to raise money, like be philosophically aligned with your investors in the early days and let them let you cook. because if they try to push you too much, you will end up with a totally different brand

by year two or three. I couldn't agree with anything more because at the end of the day, different investors are looking for different things and you need to make sure that what you want and they want are the same. Are you the type of person that I want to be in business with? And when the shit hits the fans, because it always does, are you in it or are you flighty and moving somewhere else?

And so I think when you talk about philosophical alignment, it's like, are we in this for the right reasons? is your horizon for a sale the same as my horizon for the sale? It's what you believe this brand is, i.e., in the premium space, how you're going to allow me to continue to grow this brand, or are you actually trying to get me to sell something for $2.99 at Target. These are all what philosophical alignment really looks like with your investor. And they will show their truest self when you are in negotiation.

So if you have a term, first of all, best advice, get a good lawyer, protect yourself, especially in those early days. I have a lot of friends who sign sexy term sheets. that were not good deals for them, you know? And an investor will show their true selves. If they are pushing back on terms that are actually hurting you as a founder, four years later, five years later, these things matter. And that is not aligned with who you are. One of the things that has fascinated me about you, and I'm very excited for you to talk about it, is the fact that you're not the CEO of your company. And I feel like we have glorified that role

so, so much, especially, again, in female founder circles, where you just talk a little bit about that decision and why it's the right thing for you and your business. Yeah, it's a great question and it's so funny because when we were all introducing ourselves earlier, you guys are founders and CEOs. And that's something that I said in my body for five years. Hi, I'm the founder and CEO. And you embody this thing. And for me, I've worked in the consumer space for a long time. And I've seen sticking points for other brands where the founder doesn't necessarily let go. And I think that's the hardest part of it. So it has been an extraordinary amount of personal work to kind of, again, sit on my hands. And I'm really grateful I have Elaine. I think that's the big difference is that I've

had this person from day one. I don't have a hired gun as a CEO. I do think that would be a different experience. If I was like bringing in so and so with 25 years of experience, that would be a different journey. But I think with Elaine, it was already happening. She was doing the role. Like at the end of the day. What a gift for my business to be at a place where like, you know, once you hit certain numbers, the 50 million's north of that, it's like, maybe I shouldn't be CEO anymore. Like, let me actually spend my... No shame in the game. Like, maybe you shouldn't be CEO anymore. Maybe you should never have been CEO. Like, the role that I love the most in my life is my role at skims, right? It's like, to be chief product officer is my dream of a job. But it took me a really,

really long time. It took me sitting down going, what's all the shit that I don't like versus all the stuff I do like? And I do think that somehow we imagine that you don't call the shots unless you're the CEO. And I'm telling you, that is not true. As I speak to each of you, I hear that concern about a loss of control, a lack of control. And again, that is to be expected as founders and operators of your business. What are the things that each of you believe, despite the size of your team and how far you've come and however well you're doing, that you still need control over and you still need to fully understand despite having built real companies with real infrastructure and real teams. I feel as a CEO, there's a few things that you are responsible for.

One, you have to have a vision so big that one, people want to follow you and be, they can see their dreams coming true within your dream, which is a very hard thing to do. So that's one. Two, you have to build systems and structure so that you don't need to be there. I think that's too. But free. Yeah. What I think is really important is like you set the tone and the energy for everyone. Like you have to be like the most optimistic person. You have to create the belief. And for me, I haven't found that person who I think could do that better than me. Fair. Yeah. Daniel, what do you feel? feel like you have to understand personally over what can be delegated? I mean, I always say I'm the first 10% and the last 10%. And everything that 80% in the middle is I let go and I let my team do their

thing. So it could be anything from like a budget of a campaign, a product development, a hire. Let me in the beginning, I want to set the tone with you. And then I'm going to let my team, whoever it is, even investors, do their work and then come back to me. And I think that is how we've really been able to grow the business is me not touching. every single part of it. That has been huge. And I love what you shared because there's a quote

from a French philosopher that's like, you can teach a man to build a boat or you can teach him to long for the sea. And by teaching them to long for the sea, they're going to figure out how to build the boat. But it's no longer my job to be like, this is how the boat's going to be made,

this is this. So for me, it's about being that vision, being that voice, and giving space for someone else to teach them how to build the boat, who are honestly better at building boats than I am. I'm sure. I love that.

I mean, I'm going to be really vulnerable and tell you, I'm still figuring this out. Not a good delegate. No, I mean, I, yeah, maybe. There is a part of that where it's like the thing, you know, everyone says like the thing that gets you here won't get you there. And I think it's absolutely true. And I am really in the business. And that is something that I'm really trying to figure out right now. I am trying to figure out this fit.

I'm going to be honest, like, I don't think I have listening to you. I'm like, God, I envy the fact that you have such clarity around. Today. Today. Yeah, tomorrow maybe different. Yeah, and I am trying to do exactly what you said, figuring out, like, what are the things that I like to do? What am I actually good at? Frankly, like, there is something where I've always just been a part of a team. So a lot of the time, I just felt like I was just doing my same job I've always done. And then I realized, oh, there's like a weight to my words. Like when I say I don't like something, it's no longer a brainstorm. Right. And so hardest thing to realize, by the way, not. I think every founder out there can really, it's so hard to. It's so hard to. It's so hard to. even realize that you might be intimidating because you know every piece of your own story. You're like, little old me? Yes. I said that. Like people are taking it.

Yeah. I think that's honestly one of the hardest things, which is a funny thing to talk about. It is a really weird thing. And then you have to figure out like, okay, then how do I say it in a way that will make you feel okay? And so I've, you know. This is why I leave the room, guys. This is why Elaine's like, please leave for at least 30 minutes and then come back.

It's hard. It's hard. But I will be honest, I think I am still on that journey and there are things that I do well. There's definitely things that I don't do well. I am so happy that you express that because I think there are so many founders that feel exactly the same. And so many senior people and leaders that feel exactly like that. They haven't quite figured it out. And it is a journey and it does take a little bit of trial and error.

But that's why I think conversations like this are so important. And indeed, relationships, like the group chat that you have, right? because learning and listening and seeing how somebody else has done it and having the honesty around it to say, you know what, I tried this. It didn't work out so well. I'm still figuring it out. And even just the sort of framework of you saying the first 10 and the last 10, it's like, I'm going to try something similar.

I'm like, I'm going to try this. Right? But I think it's really important. And again, why we need to be able to have these conversations and have them honestly, because it's not helpful for anyone to hear the lying, cheating, crappy version of this. That isn't really true. And I think it takes a long time.

For me, the Kia has always been people. And I think the reason I've migrated people through businesses is that you create relationships and you create a shorthand that is not really easily replaceable. And when you do lots of things, like having those relationships and those people that have been able to make great livens and hopefully make some good money along the way and they can transition into different roles

and grow with a company or switching to something else is such a blessing to me. But it always comes to people. It makes it so much more fun. But I think for me, the right people in your organization, there is just no replacement for it. You have to have the right people on the bus, but they'll send the right seats.

Before even figure out which direction you're going. And the wrong person there for too long can really make a mess too. The wrong person for any amount of time. I think like it's the most, expensive mistake that I made and the most, I mean, honestly, I find a lot of the business problems. Like, if it's something that money can solve, I'm actually like, I can be okay about it. But the things that have to do with people, those are always the ones that keep me up at night. This is a personal journey, not just a professional life.

Listen, ain't it just. You're dealing with real people. And I'm still really learning how to want to be respected and not just liked. And I think that's something. And I think that's maybe not something from reading your book that you can go for this much. But I'd like to learn more. Well, you know, again, I think that that's a journey. And I think that displeasing people is something that you get more and more comfortable about

because you realize that it's not about you. I think if you have enough experience and you change approach and you're in different situations, you have companies that do well, things that do less well. And yet there's a you are the continuum. You are the thing that doesn't change. and yet the reaction from people is really, really different. You learn that actually the energy that you're putting into making something palatable for somebody other than yourself is wasted energy.

Well, and that you're doing it for the best of everybody, not just for that person. Right. And that's what it comes down to. I think the bigger things get the more responsibility that is on our laps, right? And I take that responsibility so seriously. And so I'm always thinking about the greater good. I'm never, you know, limiting the situation to this one moment in time, this one sentence, this one set of hurt feelings. Because I think consistency is the most important thing for a leader.

And when you're consistently, whatever you are, consistent bed, or consistently kind or consistently, you know, it's like, people come to rely on what it is that you give. And that's what people don't like. They don't enjoy surprises. But if you are open and you're giving people the road ahead and you're telling them what's coming, You know, that helps a lot, right? And so I think better to be consistently who you are than trying to fit into some mould because we're all different

and we all come at this from a totally different perspective. And we're all running different things that will end up in different places. So there is no one size fits all. My last question is really just thinking about seeing the three of you today. I knew you had arrived because there was like so much cackling like outside. It's like literally like this.

And I was like, they definitely must like each other. How important do you think the relationships between founders, between women, between competitors, like what has that, what does it mean? What do you need from it? What do you wish you saw more of? I think it's everything. I think Diana kind of alluded to this in the beginning, but the industry has changed a lot. And I really do think now it is more collaboration over competition. And I think this is the first generation. We've really seen that. I mean, even as a long-time beauty executive, I remember going to to dinner with a bunch of my friends who are beauty executives. And they were all complaining about their founders.

And I was like, oh, wait, I'm not one of you anymore. Other people are out there complaining about me. That's so funny. Wait a minute. Like, maybe these are the people that I need will have more likeness with or can understand more where I'm at. And so I think it's really, I try really hard to be, I try to be helpful to people who are low, you know,

getting earlier and then also to like look to other people who are like the seniors when I'm like the sophomore you know so I think both ways yeah first founder that took my call that I was like this is happening and you've been on this journey with me the whole time and it's so I mean seeing you across the room this one is lights up the entire room and you just see your face whether it's at store manager conference and you're like oh denazas is here I feel good you know and whether it's whether it's brand summit, which you spoke, you spoke at the Impact Summit. It's just like it's joy and it's a beautiful feeling. I only know it in the Sephora environment, but I think in general and beauty can kind of, it can seem like a gladiator ring and, you know, everyone in a gladiator ring is like fighting to the

death. But the truth is, is once you're in the ring, if you are in the arena, you're like, how do we all survive? Yeah, you know, the tone changes. And you're like, wow, it is so hard to even get in here. How can we all help each other? And by the way, that noise, those people are, in the stands. Yeah. So once you're in there, you see people totally differently, and it is a privilege for your business to do well and to grow. And you just, I think, continue to have more and more empathy for everyone, because once you're doing it, you're like, this is not easy. Vanessa, tell me, what do you still aspire to? I aspire to help people see their possibility. Tiana, what do you still aspire to do or to become? I aspire to help people find their inner child.

I love that answer. I will take a different tack. I aspire to be the best version of myself. Amazing. Ladies, thank you so much. This has been a joy and a privilege and I could see her all day. But we've got businesses to run. So, you know, let's do it. Love you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating. and share an episode you loved with a friend who'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed.

Our executive producers are Ashley McShanne, Derek Brown and me. Executive producers from Odyssey are Asha Saluja and Leah Reese Dennis. Producer KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shorts. Angela Paluso is our Booker, original music by Charles Black. Video production by Phil Sweet.

Tech and Carlos Delgado. Social media by Olivia Holman, Catherine Bale. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my team's at the lead company and WME. Josefina Frances, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Mekyll, Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled GR-E-D-E. that's Aspire, AspI-R-E with Emmergre.

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