Aspire with Emma Grede - How to Build Something Meaningful From Your Worst Chapter (Sarah Jakes Roberts)

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

Sarah Jakes Roberts is not a traditional entrepreneur. She’s the daughter of Bishop T.D. Jakes, one of the most prominent pastors in America. Sarah became a mother at 13—and in the years that followed, she carried the weight of that story in public, under a spotlight she never asked for.  This conversation is about what happens when the thing you’re most ashamed of becomes the thing you build from. Today, Sarah co-leads a megachurch while raising a blended family of six. But she didn’t set out to lead a global movement, launch conferences that fill stadiums, host a top-ranked podcast, operate more than a dozen revenue streams, or become a bestselling author. She started a blog because she had something to say and an instinct that other women might see parts of themselves in her story. It turned out to be millions of women.  In today’s conversation, Sarah sits down with Emma to talk about calling, responsibility, and a feeling she describes as being “willing to do what I’ve been trusted with.”  Sarah shares: The relationship between anger and people-pleasing—and why suppressing one feeds the other What Old Thoughts look like when you've been carrying them since you were 13 How she went from a blog with a million views to a global conference and a publishing operation without a traditional business strategy What young motherhood taught her about shame and building something real from the chapter most people would want to erase Where ministry ends and business begins—and how she navigates making millions from a unique calling without losing what built it What’s something in your life that you need to move past?  Drop it in the comments — we're reading. And subscribe to Aspire with Emma Grede so you don't miss what's next. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My debut book, Start With Yourself, is available now. You may have seen the headlines or the clips on social media, but this book is exactly what I intended it to be, a conversation that will make you think, and it's a blueprint for anyone pursuing success without the toxic positivity. Everywhere I go, women ask me how I got to where I am. But what they're really asking is how can they get there to? Start with yourself is my answer, and it will be your answer to.

So today's episode is for anyone who's ever hit, rock bottom and wondered if there was actually something on the other side of that. Whether it's a mistake that you can't get past or you're in the middle of your worst chapter, it's a reframing of what to do with what's happened to you and how to use it to your advantage as you move forward. Sarah Jake's Roberts is a mother of six. She's a leader within a mega church, a bestselling author, and the force behind a truly global brand. She's also living proof of what success looks like when you embrace what life serves up for you and you move forward anyway. Here's something to think about.

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The part I think is most underrated is the neighborhood concierge. It books restaurant reservations and fitness classes and helps members find new spots around their city, all while being rewarded at more than 45,000 merchant partners. It's like having a personal assistant baked into where you live. If you're a renter or you own a home, Bill is worth looking into. Join the membership for where you live at Joy. Joinbuilt.com slash Emma. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash Emma. Make sure you use our URL so they know we sent you. Sarah, I'm so happy to have you here today. I'm so excited. Thank you for having me.

Now, welcome to Aspire. I tell you, I have been thinking about this conversation since you and I had the opportunity to sit down and you gave me the most beautiful introduction to my own book press. You were the first person to interview me about my own book. And it was so satisfying to know, A, that somebody had really read it, because you had really read it. You had really read it, girl. But also the amazing feedback that you gave me. And one of the key things that I talk about in that book is that in order for you to have meaningful success, you have to take radical responsibility for your life.

And when I think about you and what your life and your career has really embodied, It's exactly that, taking responsibility for yourself. You have had such an amazing, it's like a movie. When I read your life, you know, it's like you became a mother as a teenager. You then went out and started, you know, discovering the world and doing everything that you did. You dropped out of college. You were waitressing as a teenager. And it feels to me like there was this kind of moment, this opportunity that you had to truly start with yourself.

And you began writing about your pain. You've kind of built this platform. And now I look at you, you're running a global empire. You're doing so much. And you're also leading a megachurch. And I guess my question to you from the beginning has to be like, I wonder if as you were going through all of that stuff, all of that tumultuous time,

if you could see and if you understood that there was something bigger on the other side. I don't know if I thought that there was something bigger on the other side as much as I felt like I could be bigger than the moment I was standing in. I am not one of those people who looked at their lives and like one day I'm going to speak to millions of people. I'm going to write books.

I've always just kind of taken whatever the next available step was in front of me. And I was walking out of the CPS office, which is child protective services, which is a long story that I will say for another time. But I just thought one thing to myself, and it was I can do better than this. I can do better than this. And that has been my mentality that I'm always kind of chasing. What does better look like from here? So what did you think he would do?

kid. You must have had like hopes and dreams and, you know, why I was dreaming of being a fashion designer. What was it for you? Not to be a pastor. That was nowhere. I was literally about say, did you imagine you would follow your father's footsteps? I looked at that. I was like, we're going the opposite direction. I think at one point I wanted to be a doctor. After I had my son, I just wanted stability. And by time I dropped out of school, I thought, well, at first I was going to go and be an accountant. But then there was this one math class I couldn't pass. And I was like, well, then I just need stability. I have a child to take care of.

And I thought if I could become an administrative assistant, I could support someone else's work, and I could have stability for my son, maybe room for some growth. And that's literally all I wanted to be. So you never thought I'm going to be, you know, leading 30,000 people every weekend. Absolutely not.

No. No. And now that I stopped to like invite my previous versions of myself into this moment to realize like this is the moment that I'm living in, Oprah said once that she's living God's dream for her life. And I feel like that's very much so. My reality is that I'm living out a dream that I could have never had for myself. What was the decision for you that you weren't going to let

like hard moments in your life to find your future? I had to let them define my present first. I think that sounds easy like I'm not going to let these hard moments define me for the rest of my life. And sometimes that's an instant click for people. But then there are people like me who live in the result of letting those hard decisions to find them where they come to a place where they're like, I don't like the results. I did not like who I was when I looked in the mirror. I just didn't. I just didn't like her. It started, of course, when I was a pregnant teenager and I was so ashamed of myself, I'd look in the mirror, and I would think the worst thoughts about myself. And then as my choices continue to reflect that poor self-belief,

I just didn't like who I was. And I became curious about whether or not there was any way that I could love myself. And I started like just taking little pieces of my life. And I just taking little pieces of myself that I like, well, I like this about me and I like that about me. And that was the journey of me falling in love with myself. And from that place, I began to fall in love with the world around me and other people and experiences and opportunities and things begin to change. How did you decide to start speaking and thinking about yourself and your own identity differently? Now, this is where me growing up in a faith household, I think, really began to take form for me is because they kept talking about faith and God.

and he loves you and all this stuff. And I just didn't believe it. It couldn't be possible. How could God love me and I don't love myself? And the people who I trusted have turned their back on me and friends don't believe in me anymore. And so I think by faith begin to say like, if God is real, if this is possible,

I want to imagine what kind of life I could have if I really believe these things. And it was me living out that life that I began to see a shift and a change take place within me. But I think a lot of people were disqual. disappointed in me when I got pregnant. I think they were like, you could maybe possibly recover if you don't make any more poor choices, but then I kept making poor choices. And then I was like, we might as well have fun while we're making poor choices. And so I had to make some subtle changes

before I saw a sudden shift. I mean, what's so interesting to me is while all of this is going on, it's against the background of you being a mother, right? And then you get married at 19 years of age. And you start to put out all of what's happening to you. You start blogging, basically, because it was blogging back then, right? You weren't an influencer, you were blogging. And I wonder what made you actually decide to put what was happening in your life and all of that mess, like out on the internet. It was just stuck inside of me.

Like, I started liking the fact that I was angry. I think it's because I wasn't feeling anything at all. That to even feel anger made me feel alive, it made me feel like a person. Unless you've been there, it's really hard to understand for someone. But yeah, it just, it made me feel alive to feel angry. And I felt like, okay, this probably isn't healthy. And I was in my first marriage and we were going through a terrible situation, which there was an alleged pregnancy by someone else. And I started, I started really having some unhealthy thoughts.

I knew Emma, I knew I was headed to prison. Because listen, like, I preach now and I get dressed up and I may not give what I was ready to give back then. But I was ready to give jail time. I just was and I was like, okay, I got to make. Because you were that angry. I was so upset. But I had to realize. I was upset with him, but more than anyone, I was upset with myself.

And I felt like what I wanted was someone to channel that anger towards. And he gave me a reason to channel that anger towards him and her or anyone. And I got to a place where I had to let it out. So I was writing, it was really just for me because I wanted to get it out of me. Then I realized I would close the blog with like, you know, if I were someone's friend, what would I say to someone in this situation? And it was a conversation between me and maybe the highest first. version of myself became this conversation that I started having with thousands and then millions of

women who were in similar situations. I want to just double down on the anger piece for a second because it's an emotion that throughout my life, I've always been very attuned to my anger, shall we say. There was a time when I think I was really led by that emotion. And as I've got older, I've been able to train myself and understand it a lot more and channel it. I wonder if there is any part of the anger that serves you now. Like, do you find any, channel or any use for it in your work and your life now? That's a great question. I think so. I think I get angry now at systems of oppression. I get angry. And that fuels you? It does. It makes me want to dismantle them. But at the time, I couldn't channel it that way. But I think also just

women in general are not allowed to be angry. And because we were not allowed to be angry, I thought I had to suppress it, suppress it, suppress it. And so there would be these moments of explosion that seemed like it was just about that one thing in front of me, but it wasn't. It was about all of the other things that I had to stuff down. Yeah, I really can resonate with that. I actually think that for a lot of women, the reframing of anger is a very, very useful tool because it can be one of those emotions that really allows you to get stuff done. People talk about being people pleasers all the time. And I'm thinking, are we people pleasers or are we manipulating people into believing that it's easy to love us and that we won't cause any issues and we're just

so easy to get along with when in reality there are things that offend us, there are things that upset us, but because I feel like I'm not allowed to tell you because I want to be nice and I want to be sweet, I often end up building relationships that don't have the roots to really withstand what it means to be in relationship with my authenticity. Honestly, when I think about my book and how much time I spent around this idea of people pleasing and anger and how actually one leads to the other because when you're constantly running your agenda on what you think is going to please other people, you get way off track and way off course. Sarah, what was so unlawful, you're so unbelievable is that your blog went from zero to a million viewers in less than three months.

Yeah. Can you take me back to that moment? Because when I look at you and look at the platform that you had now, that must have been like an early signal that you were like, one second, I have something. Like I have something. Not my family, not where I come from. This is like, this is me. I'm putting my information out there. And it's really resonating.

It was crazy, especially like my father has a famous last name, but I wasn't writing under my maiden name. I was still married at the time. And so I think it really spoke to the fact that I was telling this story that other women could resonate with. And as much as it was a sign to me that I had something, because listen, I grew up in church where, like, if you can't sing, you can't dance, you can't pray, then, like, you don't have any talents. And so I didn't know that writing could be a gift. Right. But I realized that being able to put into words what other people are feeling is a gift. And so I thought, okay, so this is a blog and people are in search of words and meaning that felt nice, but also scary.

I'm naturally introverted. And so this idea of like, wait a minute, guys, this is my diary and now you guys are all watching. I think I felt like a sense of responsibility and a sense of maybe urgency to get to a place of healing and not just unpacking and unloading without leading people somewhere. You know, when I look at the sort of broadness of your work from what you do in the church to what you do with your women's conference to these unbelievably successful books that you've had. And so I wonder what you're hearing from women now? Like what has changed from when you first started to where you are now? And do you hear the same things? Sometimes I hear echoes of the same thing. I feel like the universal thread between all of those different types of women is that some of us in some way are trying to figure out what happened to

us and how it's showing up in our present. And that's for the woman in the boardroom and that's for the little girl in a detention center. What happened to me and how is it showing up in the choices that I make now? And so I still see that thread in many of the things that. that I do. But what I feel exists now that didn't exist when I first started is that I do believe that women feel more empowered to lay hold of possibilities that perhaps didn't exist a few years ago. I think with the rise of social media and technology, that possibilities are more at our fingertips than before. And I believe that seeing other women because of social media who maybe have similar backgrounds and backdrops have given people who are in limiting circumstances or who are

wondering what their pathways can look like, it's given them hope and possibility that there's a path for girls like me and women like me to have children and have the business or to go from a place of being in incarceration to starting a business. Like I feel like the possibilities are more exposed and I believe that that's given women a lot of hope. I wonder if there's something, you know, you and I spoke about this a little bit when we first met and because my book is kind of largely structured around this idea of thoughts that exist, these kind of old thoughts that you keep with you and there being this other idea of what is possible and how you should think now. Do you think that you were plagued by old thoughts and things that had happened to you

when you were younger and that they show up in your life and your business now? Oh, yes, girl. Wait, we want it there. Emma, please. Please. Can we take a minute? It's only question five, baby. For sure.

Okay, so I think to properly frame this, though I am 37 now, to go back to that age at 13 years old, man, I have a 16-year-old daughter, I realize how identity shifting that is. Having a baby, now there's all kinds of trauma. I deal with a lot of women who have experienced molestation, they've been abused, they've been raped, so a lot of women carrying different types of wounds from early childhood or adolescence. But a baby, you've got evidence on your hip. Oh. And when you've got evidence, yeah. You just made me go so cold. When you've got evidence on your head, whether you're at the grocery store or you're at church, people are looking at you trying to do the math.

And so I lived with a belief that you are a bad girl. People look at you and there's pity and there's shame. And you begin to believe there's something wrong with me. And, you know, people, you know how babies come, right? So you have sex, you get pregnant. Like the math is there. And so now I'm like, you're also stupid because how did you let this happen? And that's all I ate for years as it relates to identity and self-esteem.

You're dumb, you're stupid, you're nasty, like over and over again, over and over again. So how does that show up in my present now? Though I've done the work and the healing and the praying and the meditating, I think there are still moments where I wonder like, are you really good enough for this moment? I would rather not do it at all than to risk disappointing people. But when I overcome those feelings of self-doubt and of just not believing in myself,

there's this other flip side of it where it's like you've kind of already taken some of the biggest ails you could take. So like if a podcast flops, it's not going to break here. You know what I mean? Like when you have hit rock bottom, there is this temptation to stay there so that you never have to experience the collision again.

Or there is this belief that you can tap into that says if this is truly as low as it can get, whether it's a teen pregnancy, it's grief, it's addiction, if this is the lowest it can get, then me sharing my voice on a platform, then me trying to start a business, if it doesn't work, it won't kill me because that was literally designed to kill me. there are very few people who can say they've gone through things that were literally designed to kill them. And if you manage to survive those things, I believe you owe it to your survival to dare to live again. And that living again can be big and bold where you're doing something that has a huge platform, or it could be the smallest thing of waking up this morning, taking a shower, going outside, and seeing what's happening in the world.

But you owe it to yourself to try to live again. What I seek to do is to help women understand, like, I'm just bait. Like, maybe you've heard one of my messages, read one of my books, and you're here because you know who I am. But the most important person in this room is the person who's sitting beside you. And we are intentional about creating connection because shame is isolating, doubt is isolating, worry is isolating. What I found out when I started blogging is that I wasn't by myself. There was this tunnel that I was living in that made me believe that I was the only one who would ever felt discarded. the only one who had ever felt damage and that there was something wrong with me, man, I owe as much to woman evolve as the women who I've been able to serve say that they owe to me because they helped me to see that I wasn't in it on my own. Hey, y'all. Poodle and Maddie here from Reality Gays. Grab your favorite thong because for the first time, we're heading to the villa for the new season of Love Island, USA.

Maddie, I can't wait to watch Ariana babysit these shiny, oiled up adults who I'm pretty sure aren't there for the right reason. From the homewrecking bombshells and the Casa Amor trauma to the absolute wreckage of movie night. We're judging it all. Pull up a daybed and join us every Wednesday for all the Love Island USA drama. Find reality gaze wherever you get your podcasts. Does imposter syndrome or any of the kind of underbelly of that shame, does that ever show up for you anywhere? Because when you're standing on a stage in front of thousands of people, on a Sunday morning, I guess there has to be like, you know, every now and again, like some kind of

self-doubt that creeps up. I feel no need to try and talk myself out of being an imposter. There are parts of me that have no business standing where I am. I know where I've come from. I know what I've gone through. I know that there are people who are more eloquent, people who are more studied, people who on paper would be a better fit for the things that I do. But I'm the one here. And because I'm the one here, I'm going to step into the moment with everything I have or don't have. God makes up the difference for me. And it's an offering. My life is an offering.

I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. I am already so much further than I ever thought that I would be that like maybe I shouldn't be up here. But since I'm the one who's got the mic right now, I'm going to serve the moment well until whoever's supposed to be here finally makes it here on time. Until then, this is going to be the moment that I stand up to whatever's in front of me. So talk to me if you are somebody sitting at home right now that is in the worst moment of they're in the middle of the worst chapter. Knowing what you know and doing what you've done, what do you say to them right now, to someone who thinks that where they're at is going to

define them for forever? I think that if you're in a season right now where you feel like this moment is going to define me forever, I think that you should figure out how it is defining you now, that you should study that definition and then see where you want to make edits and amendments. I think sometimes the resistance of letting it define us has more stress than just embracing that this is now a part of my identity. This is a part of who I am now. I spent so long trying to not be a teen mom

with a baby on my hip. You know, trying to not be the girl who went through the divorce while going through the divorce because I felt like I don't want to be who other people think I am because of what has happened to me. But this is a part of my truth. And so I have to embrace it.

And I have to let it change me. and then I have to figure out who do I want to become based off of what I have left. And part of my belief is that there are things that can be made out of leftovers. Listen, my parents grew up on government cheese, okay? I was raised. My parents were on welfare. We know a thing or two about taking what looks like leftovers and making incredible meals. It's in the culture of how I've grown up.

I think the same thing applies to our life experiences. We may have nothing but broken pieces left. And we can look at that and think to ourselves. There's nothing that can be made out of these broken pieces. Or we can dare to believe that there is a mosaic that maybe has never been seen before. Maybe that we could not create in our own imagination, but that they really can all work together to produce something that looks like good and looks like God. These broken pieces have meaning.

It's just a matter of who's going to find them most valuable. And it may not be the rooms full of 40,000 people. It may be that room with that one person. And so those broken pieces, they do have value. And I think I've been fortunate. You know, my influence has allowed me to let those broken pieces shine before millions and shine before one. And yet there's been meaning in each of those scenarios.

So let's talk a little bit about the business because you for sure are a businesswoman. You are doing, you know, you're selling out arenas, you're selling books, you have a platform. You have so many avenues to your business and so many tenor to what it is that you're building. Talk to me about how this ecosystem comes together, because I think so many people that are listening right now will think, you know, how do I monetize and develop my skill? So I almost want you to frame up what it is that you do for anyone who doesn't know. And then let's talk about this business that you do. So, you know, I started as an entrepreneur. I'm speaking and I'm writing. So, of course, I'm getting paid to write books

and then I go out and I speak and it was pretty much just me. And the books come from the blog, right? It's like you had the blog and then it was like, publisher approaches me and says, hey, you've got this blog. Do you want to share your story? I'm like, sure, that's fine. And I didn't even know that you could like get paid for writing. And so I'm like, okay, this is great. You know, I'll share my story and then I begin to speak and I'd get invitations. So I'm just facilitating the business of me at that point. And being able to like set goals for myself. And so I think this is just going to be me. But then I have this idea for a conference. And I'm thinking to myself, I didn't really want to

have a conference just because I had a popular speaking voice. I really wanted to have a message that I felt like you could build a movement on. And for me, that came from studying Eve in the Bible, which like, girl, you know, you may not be a Bible thumper, but let me tell you, Eve get a bad rap. Everyone knows that, whether they're a Bible thump or not. I love a girl who knows better, but didn't do better. And I love a guy that'll meet her in the midst of it all. And so woman evolved was this ode to Eve for all women who knew better, but haven't always done better, but wanted to believe that better could still exist for them. So I'm going to host a conversation. conference. And I realized that in order to host this conference, I'm going to need to bring in

lights. I'm going to need to bring in cameras. I'm going to need to bring in speakers. And so there's a registration fee for the conference. When I start seeing this money hit my account, I realize, wait a minute, this is a business. Like, we're not just biving. We're not just having ideas. You're not just signing books. This is legitimate business. People are investing their money, and I have a responsibility to be a good steward over the money that's coming in. As I launched the podcast, I realized that I am having to engage with other businesses for something that just felt like, Oh, a passionate pursuit. So I was thrust into business as a result of me pursuing my passion.

Business is not at the forefront of my mind. That's why I'm grateful that I have my husband, who is more of a natural business person than I am, because I've had this tutor that's been able to help me. As I begin to see things grow, right? So now we've gone from a few thousand to millions of dollars coming in and revenue and millions of dollars going out as a result of expenses. I realize that we're going to have to be very intentional about what is our long-term goal and strategy. So of course, we want to have the conferences and events, but what is the legacy

we want to leave? Well, how do we want to continue to attract incredible talent to make sure that we're amplifying in some of the most powerful ways possible? And that requires resources. And so what does it look like? I'm curious to understand, like, the personas, right? Because it's like you have this one side of you that is very, like, outward facing and you're on stage and you're, you know, sharing your message. But there has to be another side of you who's like leading the business and working on that side of things when it comes to your book deals. And as you say, the strategy of what you're building, this media empire. What are those two versions of Sarah look like? You know, I'm probably more from my heart when speaking and more from my mind when doing the business side of things.

Are you comfortable in both? Yes. If there is more discomfort on one side, it's probably more the heart side because I'm introverted and I don't necessarily, I don't like. speaking. I've just been through a lot and then you're exposing yourself to so many people. So I am protective, but I do on the mind side of things, on the business side, I had to become intentional because nobody knows what this is but me. And people can come in and they can project their ideas of what it can become, but it's going to take it away from what I know it's supposed to be in my core. And I have to answer for what I did with this influence, for what I did with this

call, for what I did with this purpose. Are you the driver of the strategy and what you want it to be? I feel like I know what it is. It's hard to explain. I have a sense for what woman evolve is supposed to be and how it resonates with those people. But I don't always have the talent or the skill set to translate what I feel into meaningful impact. That's interesting. What do you mean by that? You don't have the talent and skill. I love to hear people talk about what they don't have because everybody always talks about what they do at. So my husband on the business side of things, when we started bringing in larger contracts, I knew where the limits needed to be, but I didn't know how to communicate that to partners in a way that still honored the fact that we want to. it to be in relationship, but also created some strong boundaries. And so I depended on him for that. My friend Jason is an incredible visual director. I know what I wanted to feel like when the

women come into the room, they need to feel fun, they need to feel love, they need to feel the theme really infiltrate everything that they touch. He can execute that in a way that I can't. So I see myself as someone who understands the vision of what it's supposed to be, how it's supposed to show up, but the actual execution of it, I don't necessarily have the gifts and talents to do that in some marinas. Also, I would just think about you as an excellent CEO and leader because, and here's one of the things that I love to talk about all the time, that as a woman in a leadership position, we always envisage that we need to have the answers to absolutely everything, that you need to be the best. And actually, you need to be great at what you're great at. And then you need to find all of the people

around you to do and execute the rest. What you are is just an excellent leader. You're an excellent CEO. It doesn't mean to say you need to be, you know, you don't need to do the books. You don't need to the finances, you don't need to do the visual. You need to have the vision and tell everybody where to go. Well, thank you. I want to create space for the best to be the best. And so my goal is to attract the type of environment and culture that makes it easy for people who have a gift and a talent to come in and to be able to really expand it and magnify it in a way that is ultimately meaningful for the women we get to serve. Do you have lessons in leadership that you, feel like over the years, like what has changed in your style of leadership and how you come into

the kind of business of what it is that you do? For sure. I think when I first started, I would just take whatever came my way and whatever people said I should do. And I was finding myself like overwhelmed and not really being clear about my message, my brand, my desire to show up in the world as directed by what I believe my sense of calling is. And now I feel more agency, more of a sense of ownership to say what I will do, what I won't do. And I think one of the greatest things that I've learned as a leader is to not apologize for what I don't know. I think that there's this temptation when you're finished, like accepting whatever comes

your way, then now I'm going to overcompensate and know everything and do everything. And I feel like I have found the way to balance. Like this I'm really strong in. I know this for sure. I know that for sure. And the things that I don't know, I don't mind not knowing because it doesn't change who I am in the equation of things. And I don't have to know.

something that I don't know. My father taught me, he's like, you only don't know once. So if you're ever in a room and someone's talking about something you don't know or something you don't understand, if you ask, you only don't know once and then from there you're able to add to your knowledge. That's some good advice. Isn't that great? That's such good. He should do something with his life. Yeah. He should do something. What's he doing over there? I want to talk to you about money. My favorite subject. You have grew up in, as you say, a house of faith. Yes. And I guess that that would have given you a very specific. relationship with money and I just wondered how it shaped your idea of money and how you think

about wealth and earning money now. My father is more of the variety of like, I have money you don't. So even... We're rich. Oh yeah. That don't have nothing to do with you. Not you. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, my parents were on government assistance when I was born. And so I've seen their life grow and evolve. But I think like a lot of families and cultures like my parents were so busy surviving and trying and make the money, that they didn't have time to talk about it. So we didn't have a lot of conversations about finances. My father would be on, don't ask me to borrow any if you have already spent the money that you had from your paycheck.

So I feel like we learned a lot of things on our own or just by watching them. And so I've had to manage my relationship with money from a sense of like, if I don't talk about it, then I'm not going to be able to negotiate for what I need in this moment or to get what I need the truth from other people. That's the other thing about being in a position. I think this may be true in every field, but I think when you're in a position of faith, like people want to offer you something in exchange for what you've maybe done in their lives with your messages. And I want to know what it costs for real because, you know, gifts are nice, but I want to know what it would really cost for me to put this CVN on if you weren't here.

And so I've had to have some intentional conversation with people about like, give me a realistic view of what this call so that I can plan for longevity and not just for this season. Has there ever been any conflict in you about essentially making money from a faith connected business? For sure. I think one, even though like when you're writing books, the resources come from the publisher, there's this fine line of wanting to make sure that my ancillary businesses, which do bring in revenue, doesn't look like I'm taking it from people. And I think that there are some legitimate concerns and legitimate ill practices that have taken place that has created distrust between people and faith leaders. And so I've constantly tried to position myself in

such a way that I am able to sustain my life and the things that we have going on in our lives outside of resources or donations from other people. Like, I've always tried to make sure that that was a part of what we do because I am relying ultimately on the gifts and talents that God gave me just like everyone else has. And I want to make sure that we're leveraging them with responsibility. Staples Preferred Business Membership, built for busy business owners, because you've got bigger things to think about. With Staples Preferred, get free delivery, no minimums.

Staples Preferred unlocks up to 3% back, plus 10% savings on print and exclusive wireless offers. One less thing on your plate. Actually, a lot less. Visit staples.ca. slash preferred. That was easy. I want to talk a little bit about your family life and you as a mother because it's such a huge part of who you are. When I was doing my research, I kind of counted like six kids in a blended family.

But let's kind of take me back because we know that you're a teenage mom. I think your eldest is 23 now. Malachi? I mean, the idea of a 23-year-old son when you're younger than me is mind-blown. Literally, yeah, it really is something. I just wonder like what he has taught you about yourself. Because obviously, you know, it's like, it's what, you know, motherhood teaches you so much. But this particular child must have taught you maybe more than the others.

I don't know. Malachi has made me believe that I wasn't as bad as I thought I was. Because I think I spent so much of his childhood feeling like I'm just such a terrible person, such a terrible mom. He deserves so much better. I could do so much better. But he has some of the most beautiful memories of his childhood. Like he texts me today. He was eating an orange.

And he was like, this reminds me when I went to summer camping. You packed me this huge lunch. I got to feed all of my friends. And so even though I felt disconnected and distant, he was still getting a part of me that felt like the best part of me, even though I didn't know I was doing my best, which I think is such a message to women who are trying to do it all. That in those moments where you're hard on yourself because you feel like you're falling short, that these children are they're grading us on a curve. They're grading us on a curve. and they don't know any different. And if we can give them the love that we have,

if we can give them the presence that we have, even as we're growing and changing, that it's enough. And as we grow, the more that we give them, that'll be enough too. But I don't think I was as bad of a mother as I thought I was as a teenager.

How does that make you feel? Thanks. Don't do it, Emma. Listen, girl, this is our second time talking. You're not going to have me crying. I'm going to have me crying. I'm going to. Because I just, I understand that.

Like, I understand. living with a feeling of how you assumed it was going to be and almost like that becoming your reality in your head because you were like, I had him so young, I am a bad mom, this, you know, and then the idea that he can turn around and say to you, I have great memories. Like that's a big deal. I think the idea that for me, the idea that I didn't want to mess it up, like so many of the choices that I made was because I didn't want to mess them up. I didn't want to mess them up. I think being driven by that made me show up for him in a way that kept me from messing it up. And I feel like if it really matters to you, even if you don't know what you're doing,

the fact that you're trying, I think they pick up on the effort. Yeah. They pick up on the trying. And I think that that can give us consolation as we mother and navigate uncertainty. Oh, my kids should be so happy with me then. So much effort. It doesn't always work out exactly as I've wanted. to, but the intention. I actually think that, I don't know if I've ever heard anybody say that,

that your kids will pick up on the effort and the intention, which for any mother out there who is just doing her best is huge. Yeah. And I believe that. My son's in his 20, but if you think about it, even as we think about our parenting dynamics, like the things that we penalize our parents for the most is like, it's like you didn't try. But then you can tell when they did try. know when they were trying. They were trying. Yeah. And I think that a lot of times we end up with parent ones because it feels like you didn't

really try. Even when your best wasn't enough, we can at least reconcile the fact that, hey, at least you gave it your best shot. It's the not trying at all that I think leaves us the most wounded. Like you could have at least tried. Facts. Facts. The idea that they can actually feel the effort and the intention is a really big and

really huge takeaway that I hope anybody that's listening to this really can double down on and understand because if you're doing your best, that might be all you have to give. That's it. That might be it. I was interested in your parenting philosophy because you've got a lot of children. You have like, so you've got your first kid you had as a teenager. You then have a second kid. You then have three in your current relationship and one that you had together. Yes. So I'm counting. It's a lot of things. It's six. It's six. And with everything going on. Have you adopted a specific parenting style, parenting philosophy? Like, what is happening? What does your family look like? You know, the way I try to parent and the way I was

parented, they don't go together. Oh, good, because that was my next question. Let's talk about that. And I had to see, and the problem is that I was formed in a form of parenting that is so counter to the way that I want a parent that I have to remind myself when parenting my children to not turn into my parents when parenting them. Because my parents, they didn't really care about your feelings. You know, they cared that you did what I told you to do. And I find myself when my children think I care about their feelings. And I led them to believe that I cared about their feelings, but Emma, sometimes I don't care. And that's the problem is they think I care when I don't. And so I'm having to create space for their feelings while also creating space for my own in this dynamic.

Just let's pause there for a second. Because I feel like this generational divide is so real, right? Let's just be that. Like, never in my life of my entire childhood did my mother care about my feeling toward a certain situation. And I thought they were wrong until I started hearing these feelings. And I was like, that's why they didn't care. They knew it was a slippery slope. And they said, we won't do this. We owe the boomers an apology because y'all had it a little Right, because now I find myself having to care about things I don't care about. So here I am after the longest day known to man talking about what happened on the playground. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

And I don't care. And I don't care that you don't want to do your homework and that you don't want to eat these vegetables. But, you know, I'm trying to, like, care in a way that I haven't. And that's interesting. My greatest philosophy about parenting beyond, like, don't let these kids kill you and don't let these kids take you out is create space for you to be a person in the midst of it all. because kids are selfish by nature. It's okay.

The moment they enter the world, everything centers around them. But if you do not begin to introduce that you're tired, that you have vulnerable moments, that you're afraid sometimes, then they will think that you are superhuman instead of just a super good mom or a super good parent. And I want them to know that sometimes it costs me

to show up in the way that I do, that I'm not always in a space where I can take on everything concerning you that I need time to. And so I'm trying to introduce them to who I am as a woman, not just who I am as their mother. I mean, bravo. First of all, you're speaking to the start with yourself lately. Yeah, because when I read your book, I was like, Emma, you were like,

the family chapter starts with you. I was like, I don't know if you edit it properly, but we start family. I learned a lot. No, your book, it really helped me, tremendously, with business and with family. Well, I'm so happy that you say that, and I think it's a really, really important point that you make, because if you don't reinforce the idea that you are something other than a mother, you kind of set your entire family up to see you, but nothing other than a mother, right? And so you have to kind of take responsibility for that too. And I feel like so many of us

make ourselves indispensable to our family. We make our households incapable of running without us. And then we wonder why everybody's looking to us to do everything. And so I think that when I think about start with yourself, it's that, you know what, everybody in this house can pick things up from the floor and everybody can make a dinner and everybody can contribute. And so the idea that the mother is going to just be there to constantly service the needs of everybody really dissipates when you've taught everyone that that's not how it is from the get-go. And so I think that there is so much that I always want to do, but I don't need everybody else to want me to do it too. So for me, it's just about being really honest about, you know, everybody contributes to this.

It's not like mom number one and then, you know, like a bunch of children. It's just not how it works. That's my first sign that I need to make a pivot that my life has gotten in balance is when my children start asking me to do things that is perfectly reasonable for them to ask me to do, but that irritates me. So like if they start asking me what's for dinner, I know that like, okay, I've moved into this space where I'm allowing like everyone to, rely on me so much so that when they ask me a simple question like what's for dinner, I'm annoyed and irritated. Can I get a drink? Can I get a snack? I'm like, yeah, wait a minute. You know what I mean? And so allowing them to like, you know, I'm like, I need help, I need support or we're going

to have to. Yes, I have to reorient them. Yes. But, you know, I think the other thing is a lot of time. Now, this is going to be deeper. Are you ready? I think that when we have had moments like I've had where we have struggled with self-esteem and low self-worth, it is affirming that the world only spins if we're in the center of it. And it can be edifying for us that everyone needs us. It makes us feel valued. It makes us feel, maybe stress and all of those things too, but we kind of like that this world will fall apart if I wasn't in it.

And I do think that there is a need for us to de-center ourselves and to not need the world to revolve around us if we're really going to experience the type of liberation that allows them to, one, grow up and be self-sufficient. But also for us to be affirmed outside of what we do for us. other people, we have to remove the need for other people to center themselves around us. I mean, a million percent, and not only that, but the ability for you to be able to meet yourself in the highest possible way, you need to not be dragged down by all of this stuff that everybody else can help with, right? So it's like the two things are, we have to remove our ego from

any of that situation and really understand, like, what is the goal, not just for me, but for the entirety of our family. Like, that's a really key thing. I want everybody to feel like they have a position and a job and a role in this family. And I don't want to have to carry that. God forbid, if anything ever happened to me, I always think, like, I want my kids and my husband to feel, like, they understand, like, what is required, that they are part of, like, what has built this and that it doesn't live and fall with me. I always try to have a level of honesty about the things that I am not doing. Because when you work as much as you do and you have all of those kids, like something gives, and I talk about trade-offs all the time, do you have

trade-offs? Are there things that you are just not doing? The other moms might be like, I do that all the time. What are you not doing? I don't cook as often as I should. We definitely have support in the kitchen because it's a lot of work and a lot of mouths of the feed. I don't do the laundry. This is what I started doing when I started growing. When I started growing, in the area of revenue. I started asking myself, how much of this am I doing that someone else could do

that would not necessarily damage my children? And they do not care whether or not I fold their clothes. No. They don't. No. They do like to have clean underwear, though. And we like them to have clean underwear.

I prefer it. But who cleans the underwear? There's a little negotiation there, you know? And so it started like we would, maybe a laundry service for just a few things, but then we've been able to evolve that as well. So, yeah, there's definitely some things that I'm not doing. And then there are other things that I absolutely have to do.

I will die on a heel about getting them kids to school in the morning and picking them up. We all have our hard and fast. Like, this is my thing. I must see them. I need to see their attitudes before they go to school, and I need to see their attitudes when they're coming home. So when I'm on a trip like this, their sisters picking them up, which is like their older sisters, like the next.

best thing to have a mom look at them because I know that she'll take care of them, but I don't play about being with them. And can I tell you, I think not even basing it on income because part of what low-income families are able to do that often middle and upper-class families don't do is low-income families, they work together in order to facilitate someone's going to school. Like we all did back in the day. Exactly. And so I think that we have an opportunity to also make sure that we are allowing people to help us, people who, say things like if you need anything, let me know that we don't want people to feel like, well, I don't want them to think I'm not being responsible, so I don't want to ask for any help.

So important is help that there are literally government assistant programs to help caretakers have a day out so that they can take care of themselves instead of taking care of other people. And so I also want to just challenge people to not think that help is limited to certain income brackets, that there's often community support and they're often programs that exist to help people of all income spectrums to be able to get help and support that they need. But you're still got to be open to taking the help. But you got, and admitting that you need it. Admitting that you need it is a huge, huge thing.

And let me tell you who else you need to help you. You need your husband to help you, which takes me to my next subject, which is the whole marriage and the business and the partnership. Because you work with your husband. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you is that for women that have fought so hard to become their own person and to have their independence, what does it look like trying to actually build alongside somebody? You know, Emma, I tell my husband all the time, I'm so submissive. I'm so submissive. I say that because he is wrestling with me. If you have to tell him, I feel like it might not be true.

I'm like, you know what? I am blown away by how submissive I am. It really. You know, and he giggles. I'm not sure what the joke is. It's hard, especially like, I'm going to talk to you, like, I would talk to, like, one of my home girls, right? When you have had somebody play in your face and play with your time and play with your body and your The last thing you're going to do is less than I get over on you again.

Let me just lay down and see what happens next time. Do you think absolutely not, right? And so I think I got married. I was like, I love him, but like I'm never going to let anybody play in my face again. But what I realize is like having someone reflect your face is not the same as someone playing in your face. And so I had to learn the beauty. How long did that take you? Well, we're 12 years in.

So 11 years and six months. You know, you know, it's hard. I was so busy trying to protect myself from him that I didn't get to experience the beauty of who he is. And so trusting, because of my faith, we had this, like, what God has put together, let no person tear apart. And I didn't want to be the one who was tearing it apart. And so I really had to trust that God would allow me to be in partnership with someone who could help make my life better, even though I had experiences where I put myself with someone in the past and it didn't make it better. So there is a humility.

There is an awareness. That's the other thing is I recovered so hard that I didn't think I had any flaws. You know, after I went down in the dumps and came up like the phoenix that I believe that I am, I said, wow, you really are that girl. There are very few things wrong with you. And if they are there in your past, then I mean Prince Charming. And Prince Charming's like your shoes off and I'm like, sir, I prefer. to be barefoot.

And he's like, okay, well, you're weak. It's so that I prefer my wig. Listen, I will take that off for you. Like, I've seen that stuff on site. And so I missed out on the opportunity to, like, really have meaningful feedback that can make me better. And so when I learned to, like, at least take his feedback,

even if I took it with my eyes rolled and then, like, you don't know what you're talking about. I'd, like, take it into my closet and be like, well, let me look at it and see what he said. And I would see opportunities for me to grow and opportunities for me to change. And I learned to come to a space where I realize we really are on the same team.

Now, his delivery may be different from mine. His perspective may be different. We may have to learn how to communicate things. But I know that he's for me. And knowing that he is for me has been one of the greatest gifts that I think that I have been able to offer to our marriage because it has changed the way that we communicate. But it is hard to be in partnership after you've been wounded and hurt and to allow someone into the most intimate parts of your life is challenging.

but when you really trust that that person is there to make your life flourish, and they have evidence of it, right? Because we're not just talking about words. I looked at the way that his evidence showed up. We were just dating. He lived in California. I lived in Dallas. It was my daughter's first day of school.

He flies in the town for her to go to her first day of school. You know what I mean? There were these little things, these little signs along the way where I said, I can trust him. And most importantly, you can trust yourself again. And I feel like, yeah. You can trust yourself. again when you've made poor decisions in the past. You don't trust yourself.

It's not about the other person. But that's always what I feel like when there are tough relationships, when there are infidelities, when you feel like somebody is played in your face to use your words, it's not just a mistrust of the other side. It's a mistrust of yourself. Like you are like, I didn't see that. I didn't understand that. I allowed that to happen to me.

So you have to build that trust of yourself. Do you trust yourself now? Yes, I do. I trust myself to do the best that I can with what I know and to recover from what I don't know. Where does the kind of past creep up with you? Because one of the things are so extraordinary. First of all, you have a marriage and a life and children with your husband.

You also work together. We do. Which completely like just adds, you know, little spice and fire and all the things to the dynamic. How have you kind of reconciled both of those things? I think we're both drivers, right? So when we work together, we play a game called How Low Can You Go? Oh, please tell.

Okay, so it's like, you know, here's what I think should happen. But hey, I'm going to toss it over to him to see what he'd like to see happen. He tosses it back to me, like, that's a great idea. Here's another perspective that can help take this to the next level. So we're always trying to like honor one another's contribution because we are both the drivers, but I also think that we recognize that we have different strengths. And so he's very macro. He can see the big picture and to see the big vision.

I can see some of the roadblocks we may encounter in the executing of those ideas. And that happens like the same way our family exists is the same way that our business relationship exists. And so he may have this idea like, hey, the family's going to run a 5K. And I'm like, that sounds like a really great idea. In execution, that means we need to start training three days a week. we need to change the nutrition. Like, I'm the one who's going to say, like, okay, we need to, this is how it's going to filter out.

And so that same thing exists in our business. And so, and I've also learned to communicate to him in a way that allows our ideas to really be platformed properly. It's a dance. It's a dance. It's a dance. He doesn't care. There are certain things that he, I know he doesn't care about.

And there are things he knows that I don't care about. But we have to keep one another informed about those things that the other person doesn't care about because that gets tricky too. So tell me, like, if there's a big decision. in your business that would affect like thousands of people. Who wins out? Like who, what happens in those situations? That we, we both win.

We have to, if there's something big, we have to both agree about the decision that we're going to take or we don't do it at all. Oh, I like that role. Yeah. Yes. The smaller things is kind of like, hey, I think that's going to be a loss,

but that's up to you. You know what I mean? It's your L to take or we'll take the L together. You know what I mean? But while we're taking an L and be telling you, hey, we didn't have to take this. but the big things we have to be on the same page about. It's a good rule.

I really, I think and I know that that works. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about legacy because you obviously, you know, your father is one of the most famous pastors in the whole world. And when I think about the idea that you are, you know, in some extent following in his footsteps, I wonder how you make it yours. and how you're thinking about what you want to take from what you learned and what you saw growing up and what you might want to leave behind

and what's in your future? I don't know if I think about that much at all, to be honest. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I don't think about how to make it mine. I just am me and I bring me to it. And whatever happens from that place happens from that place. But I think that, you know, I've grown up in this shadow my entire life. And I think that there were moments where I was like, I'm going to be myself.

I'm going to have distinction and I'm going to force myself to have a carve out. And I think in the process of doing that, I just wore myself out. And so now I just focus on like what is true for me, what is authentic to me and my delivery and my studying and the way that I connect and relate to people. And in the process of doing that, you know, people make whatever choices they make about whatever lane I'm in or whatever it is they see. But I want to be able to lay down at night and say that I was true. to myself and true to what I possess. So how do you think about constantly being a woman who is evolving?

Well, as it relates to the speaking and being able to talk to people, I really look at them. I think in a world where we can become consumed by seeing people as figures and numbers that we miss out on the opportunity to really see them. And so when I'm in a room and I'm speaking, I'm looking at what moves people, what resonates with them, to really see them as people, I'm asking myself on studying, what does this mean to the guy who sits on the second road? What does this mean to the person who's going to watch this on YouTube? One of the beauties of social media, and it's got a lot of complexities, but one of the beauties is it allows you to see how people think, how people receive what's happening in the world? And so I get to ask myself,

how does this message translate to all of these different people that I get to be exposed to? And I think that that evolves me as a woman. You know, I am in a position where I get to meet people in some of their most vulnerable moments and some of their most vulnerable dreams and aspirations. And the fact that they would trust me with that makes me want to be as well-versed as possible about the obstacles they face, practical, emotional, spiritual, and to give them the types of tools that empower them to take agency in their lives as part of the reason why I've gone back to school is to understand what interventions work, which ones don't. And how do I create the types of programs that allow people to really feel positioned to grow,

into the best versions of themselves. And so I see my teachers as the people who are on the streets, as much as my professor, as much as it is, my Bible and the books that I read. I've got teachers everywhere. I wonder what you still aspire to and for in your life. I aspire to take the large impact of woman evolve and to funnel it down into local expressions

that are well informed about the obstacles and barriers that exist within certain communities and creates the type of programming and tools to help those who are marginalized to move into a position of power. I think a lot about AI and how it's going to impact a generation of people who may not be as educated or may not have as much access to technology as it changes. And, you know, no matter how far removed you think you are from that, it's going to impact all of us. And I want to give them the best shot possible at having a life of, you know,

stability for sure, but also wholeness and healing. That's a really big aspiration. I know I've got to funnel it down. No, I've got it. I mean, if anyone can do it, you can do it. Thank you. All right, we're going to rapid fire. What are you watching or listening to right now that has nothing to do with faith? Oh.

One second. Oh, Lioness. There's something spiritual about lioness, though. I don't know. Does it have something to do with faith? because my girl is after doing the Lord's. No, okay. Lioness.

We just binge-watched lioness at Paradise. You know, Emma, let me tell you something. Place, as a girl who grew up in church, particularly black church, we find something spiritual about everything, okay? We just be like, I feel a little oil on that. That's what we say, okay? I'll be watching shows that happen. Don't have anything to do with faith.

Let me tell you. You'll be like, you know, I can see it. Honey, if I bite into the right morsel of food, I would be like, Holy Ghost right here. Felt it right here. So, you know, everything's going to be a little spiritual for me, but paradise and lioness is probably taken over right now.

First of all that's just a great answer, and I feel like that about almost every man I have. What is your morning routine on a Sunday before you preach? I get up. Well, no. When I first, when my alarm first goes off, I keep my eye mask on for a minute,

and I sit there and I breathe. And I remind myself of what day it is, because sometimes I don't even know what deity is or what is expected of me during the day. But I invite the peace of God and the presence of God into my day and as that I can be a reflection of God and everything that I do. That's before I step out of the bed. I love that.

Yeah. What's the last thing you searched? Oh, I don't know. What's the last thing I remember? Be honest. Because the most random things are in my search. history. Oh my gosh. I'm going to have to give you the most random. My husband and I were looking up something random. I can't remember what it was. I don't know. Probably something about it

will be a wash and go hairstyle. See, because my daughter wanted to get her, she wanted to, let me tell you, you know, I wear a lot of weeks. Yes. I've mentioned and so my hair is usually braided down and have seen. We have seen. You know, my hair is usually, usually braid it down, but every now and then my daughter, I let her take her hair out and she's been wanting to do a wash and go. And I really thought that doing a wash and go was like washing and going. And what I learned

is that the people are lying on the internet. They're lying. If you should trust anybody should be the people on the internet. I don't know why y'all calling these things a wash and go. It's very mostly given washing, stay home before you go anywhere. And so I probably... We don't have time for it. No. I'll see you not. No. No.

No. Hard enough. No. No. No. So don't, don't search that. What's your top guilty pleasure? Oh, a Starbucks cooking, a chocolate chip cookie from Starbucks. Oh, really? It's terrible. Emma, is terrible.

How often do you allow yourself? What's the indulgment rate? Well, okay, so here's the thing. People say that, like, you know, nutrition, if you do like 80% good and 20% bad, so 80% in my day is good. That 20% I save, so you know, is it. Is it? every day?

It could be. Possibly. Yeah. I mean, I understand that. I used to work with this guy who, and he was like a junior guy in the office and we'd all be around and the girls and we'd be having a treat. And he used to walk past our desks and say, it's not a treat if it happens every day, girls. And I just remember you.

It's so offended. Someone hurt him. I want you to be free from that. I want freedom for you. That's about 20%. All right. Last question. What is a book that changed your perspective? I know. I was probably supposed to say the Bible.

I thought you were going to. Oh, that's why I realized. But no, no, no, you can choose any book that you, any, any other book. Okay. Permission to Feel by Mark Brackett. It was life-changing for me. I had gone through this. My book hit the New York Times Times with a seller list and my friends and family, they were all excited. And I just did not care. And I realized that there was something wrong with me where I wasn't. and able to feel moments accurately, and that book really helped me a lot. Wow. Thank you, my love. This is heaven.

Thank you. Thank you. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. A spy with Emmer Greed is presented by Odyssey.

I'm your host, Emma Greed. Executive producer, Ashley McShan, Derek Brown, and me are executive producers from Odyssey, Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren Lagrosso, producer KK Sublime, Stephen Key is our senior producer, sound design and engineering by Bill Shorts.

Angela Paluso is our Booker, original music by Charles Black, video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, and Carlos Delgado, social media by Olivia Holman, Catherine Bale. Special thanks to Brittany Smith,

Sydney Ford, my teams at the lead company and WME. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Miko, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emagreid. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E, that's AspI-R-E with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emagreed.me. Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling, spreadsheets. Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different,

locked in, loyal, invested. They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music. They feel seen by it, like it belongs to them. So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo. So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify Advertising. You're among fans.