Au Parloir - Épisode #75 - Mali

Episode Date: February 2, 2025

Mali, jeune femme dans une relations toxique depuis plus de 2 ans, tout le monde lui disait de partir mais elle est restée. Un jour, elle commet l'irréparable, condamnée prison à vie, à l'âge de 18 ans elle est libéré 19 ans plus tard, encore en transition elle nous raconte son parcours. Hébergé par Acast. Visitez acast.com/privacy pour plus d'informations.

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it's exactly the same price they will make you is exactly the same price you will pay in 10 years. That's their strength at Oxio. In addition, fans of the podcast Au Parloir, you have a promo code on the Oxio.ca, the promo code Au Parloir, which will give you a free month. I invite you to discover this on Oxio.ca. Hello everyone, here Cédric Bergeron, welcome to a new episode of the podcast Au Parloir. I invite you to discover this on auxio.ca to all the podcasts. You have the option $20 US where you become a Patreon producer, that is to say that you have your name at the end of the credits. Otherwise listen, you have YouTube, if you are not subscribed to the page, subscribe to you. Otherwise listen, you liked the podcast, leave a little like, a little comment, share it with people you know on your networks,

it will take you two seconds, for me it makes a big difference. If you want to support as much for the podcast as for humor, you can go to www.cédrichivergeron.com. You have access to everything, both for the podcast and the ticket for my humor shows. And also for the merch, the T-shirt and hoodie are now available. There are all the sizes. We also have the QG workshop of Trois-Rivières. They made us a nice online shop. So you go, you click, you order, you buy, they print it, they send it to you. And if you're in the area of Trois-Rivières,

you can even go directly to the QG workshop. You will save the shopping. Today, big podcast, big podcast. Big podcast. We have the first girl in the podcast who has a sentence of life. She had a sentence of life, so that is to say maximum 25 years, possibility of liberation after 14 years, and she did 19. Mali Kensy, if you google her name, you'll have a part of her story, because we don't really talk about her victim, because you know, on the podcast, that's not the goal, it's not to put emphasis on the crime, but more on the person, on her re-insertion, on his rehabilitation.

And I found that really interesting because she came home at the age of 18 to purge a 19-year-old sentence. At the time of the recording, she was still in transition and I think she was on the right track. I think the path she had the right path, thanks for coming. Big share. Honestly, I really found it interesting to have a different angle, a feminine angle. Once again, I repeat myself, as much as my managers, we don't necessarily endorse the gestures, the ideologies, the terms used by the guests, but I'm a person who takes the freedom of expression. I like frank people who speak with their hearts. Welcome to the parlour.

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What kind of family did you grow up in? What does your childhood look like until you're 18? Well, I grew up in a Cambodian family, quite strict. The culture is really different from that of Quebec. So it was... I had a good childhood, really. My parents gave me everything, but I still chose the side of turning towards crime a little.

Okay. A little more obscure. Well, yeah. I left home when I was like 14 and a half, because just like I said earlier, my parents were too strict. I needed freedom. I went to school, my friends had the right to go out, go to the cinema and everything, and I didn't have the right to go out, to go to the movies, and I didn't have the right. So I needed to explore life. And with my parents, I had to go to school, I had to come back right away,

I had to take care of my little sisters, so I didn't have the right to go out. I didn't have that freedom that others had. I don't know much about Cambodian culture. Are you something common in Cambodian culture? Strict parents, protective of their daughters. Is it the same with boys? Are you more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be more likely to be In my case, girls are over protective. And you know, my parents come from a war country, they left from there because of that.

And you know, there, the authorities took the young people and put them in concentration camps and all that. So I think that because of that, my parents were afraid. They were afraid that I would be taken by a naked man or whatever. Are you born here? Yes, I'm born here. Are you the oldest of the family? Yes, I'm the oldest.

Did your parents arrive in Quebec at the same age? I would say maybe in adolescence. Did they arrive with their parents? Yes. Okay, so you're from the first generation, born in Quebec. Yes. We hear that because you don't have an accent. I imagine you speak your native language too.

I don't know. No, you lost it with time. Yes. You know, I understand. Okay. But I don't speak. Because you're... Listen, I understand. Okay. But I don't speak. Because that's what you're... Listen, we're closing our eyes. You're 100% Keb.

And how old are you? Do you have little sisters or brothers? I have two sisters and a brother. Okay. And you... Is your brother close to you or is he... Well, my brother was born while I was in Canada. Okay. So a year after I chose the show, my mother told me that he was in my brother's care. OK, we'll come back to that later because I'm curious to see what the relationship you have with your family is like now.

I'm going to stay on the present. So you're a really structured, very stuck-up child. So it's school, home, weekends. With the family. With the family. With the family. Yes. So you don't have that many friends, apart from your friends at school, I mean. So outside school.

That's right. So you start to rebel quite young. When we talk about rebellion, I don't think that's what it's called, but rebellion. Thanks for my brain, you're a genius. Your rebellion, it starts, and what does it look like? Are you trying to do bad things, a little bit of a friend at school, does it look like that? de mon cerveau, de tes délèges. Ta rébellion, ça commence et ça ressemble à quoi? C'est-tu des petits mauvais coups, un peu de potes à l'école, ça ressemble-tu à ça ou c'est juste... Ben c'était plus je me cachais pour sortir quand mes parents étaient pas là, je me

foufoulais, j'ai fait deux fugues. C'était tout pour aller rejoindre mes amis ou ce qu'ils étaient là. Et quand tu parles de stric, en dehors de ça, mais est-ce que c'est strict au niveau, mettons, punition, genre dans ta chambre pas droit de sortir ou... Is it strict in terms of punishment? Like in your room, you can't go out anymore? Well, you have to go out and change your clothes. I'm already doing that, but I mean, is it going to physical punishment? No. No, it's just that.

They try to keep you, but it's like, it's strict, but it's not violent. No, for them it was really to protect me that they did that. In case I get caught by Mr. or Mrs. Jeunesseki. When you say you leave the house at 14, are you still at school at that time? What happens exactly at 14 when you leave the house? I went to school a little bit, after that I just dropped out. I started working in a small store. I had to come to my needs, so...

A small job in at 15, so here it is. Where do you live? I lived with my cousin and my grandparents. It was always with the family. I have a big family, but everyone is there for everyone. If you have a beef or, but everyone is always there for everyone. If you have a beef or whatever, everyone is there. I really have a united family. I'm lucky for that.

Even today? Yes. Your family is still with you? Yes. Despite all that. I can't wait to see how, since I don't know the Cambodian culture at all, I'm curious to see how, since I don't know the Cambodian culture at all,

I'm curious to see how what happened. So even if you're a girl who's a bit out of the norms of your community, I'll put it like that, you're still, the family will be there for you, no matter what, they won't try to, you know, they won't do it in a way, fuck off, it's a desperate case. No. I'm really happy that my family is like they are, because I saw people who are left behind, they are left alone in the world, they have no visits, they are all alone in the world. And I'm really grateful that my family didn't do that.

At what age did you meet your partner at the time? I was... When I left, it was 7 years ago. So, 14, 15, that's when you met him? Yes, he was older than me. So, I met him on a website. We started talking, we met and everything. And maybe a year later, I moved in with him.

And you know, for me, in my head of little rebellious young people, the fact of going to live with my husband, I thought it was cool. I said to myself, oh, my husband is older, I'm going to live with him. I'm a woman. That's it. I'm a little girl. That's it. And you know, it was beautiful the first six months.

I had all the attention and everything. Any young person, we all need to be loved. So we cling to what we have. My family is not very demonstrative. They are not very affectionate, so for me, meeting someone who said he loves me, who was paying attention to me, and everything, I was at the age, that's what I was looking for, so I hung on.

If we google your name, we can easily have the name of this person, a name that we will not mention in the podcast, out of respect, both for him and for the name of this person, we won't mention it in the podcast, out of respect, both for him and for the family. I know that you're also an Asian, were you also a Cambodian? No. Okay. No.

But was there a certain mentality that you had in your family? I don't know what origin he had. I know he was an Asian person, we won't go any further than that. But was he raised in the same style of universe as you were raised? I would say no.

No? Okay. It's likely, but... But since he was a guy, he had more... That's it. ...lactism and latitude. It's always the same. OK. You say the first six months, it was cool, it was beautiful, it was fun.

So from the seventh month, it started to work. Well, I'll tell you when I started living with him, that's when it started to work. It was another person. There was a lot of control, a lot of mental, verbal and physical violence. You accumulated that for a few years? Yes. Because, I would say, the Esian language, we are very cold emotionally. You know, for real, before I got into it, the word emotion was non-existent in my vocabulary. So I didn't know what it was.

You keep that. Yeah. And you know, my family, there are a lot of them who have been together for a long time. It's like sweethearts from the little school. Yeah, it's adolescence love. Adolescence, that's exactly it. So I was thinking, I'd like to experience that myself. So when the physical violence started, I left for the first time. Then I came back and he told me, if you talk about it to your family,

I'm going to take it from you. So I stayed at the beginning in fear. Because I thought, well, no. Me too, I'm overprotective. I thought, something shouldn't happen to my family because of me. So I'm going to cut. I was telling myself, something shouldn't happen to my family because of me. So I'm going to cut.

I'm going to stay there. I'm going to close my eyes, I'm not going to say anything. So I stayed for a little while. And then one day, it overflowed. We'll talk about it later because you went out in the media a few years ago and that's a lot of the reason why you're here.

For me, it's important to know the reason why people want to come and do the podcast. There's no bragging here. I don't think you're proud of your experience and what happened, but the biggest reason why you wanted to come here is to tell people the mentality you had, from A, I'm going to stay, from A, he's going to take it and say, oh yes. Because we always try to excuse and we always hope that the person

changes and that it's not the same anymore. But you know, we hope for how long? Until we're all tanned. You know, there are some who only get into relationships like that because they don't realize that it's unhealthy. So they accumulate because they think, you know, I got myself down. I don't know how many times.

And I was like, nobody's going to want you, nobody's going to love you. You're a bitch, you're a bitch. You know, I went through episodes of, OK, let's say it's time to eat. I'm going to eat five minutes before I finish and say I don't want to eat that. But I had already finished eating. I could eat a sandal in the face because I was contradicting or I was mouthing or whatever.

It was for nothing. And I was working at that small clothing store at the time. And I don't know how many times he told me, I'm sure you're wrong and everything. But what are you talking about? I'm just going to work, you know, we need money to live and everything. And at some point, in front of getting told things, it gets to you in the head and you doubt yourself. And you say, Hey, when you're about to say something, it gets to you and you start doubting yourself.

And you say, Hey, did I do that? I didn't realize it. It's crazy. Where can it lead? You believe everything he says. You doubt yourself. You doubt all the time. About things you've never done before, but...

I swear, just as I was taking the bus from the job to our house, I was thinking, what have I done today? I would have been through the rest of my day just to be sure. Did I do something wrong? Am I going to be in a crisis for something? My heart was going crazy. You should have left at that time. Well, in fact, way before, you should have left, you should have complained. This kind of thing. And as I said earlier, that's one of the reasons why you're here today.

It's precisely to say, for your boyfriend or girlfriend, when you're in a relationship like that, you should leave. You won't change the person or complain. For me, it's too late for the I should have. I know all that. But you know, it's not easy. All my family who I didn't really talk about it because I didn't want them to get hurt by my actions.

All my friends, how many times did they tell me, go ahead, let them. And I was like, no, I love him, he's going to change. How many times did I say that? Until it happened. I'm doing myself a duty not to trust what I read on the Internet and in the newspapers. Because I've received way too many people telling me their version, and I see the version of the newspapers. Listen, unfortunately, journalists for me don't have a good reputation enough for their version to be ahead of people's.

Of course, I don't have a lie detector, I'm in my own business, but I tell myself, if people come here in front of a microphone, in front of a camera, who are going to be watched by 50, 60, 100,000 people, listen, it's the person who has to assume what they say and their version, and that's what I want, your version. When the event happened, what came out in the media, what we hear in the media is, you knew they were cheating on you, you snapped. Your version.

It's not that one, but that's the version we read in the newspapers when we type your name. Well, I would say that it's the drop that made the vase spread. It was an accumulation of emotions, of rage inside of me because I was trapped. You know, I didn't talk about it to the big world, and all that, so I was all alone with myself. So it just...

it exploded. I saw black. It happened. Ça a explosé. J'ai vu noir. Ça s'est passé. On rentre pas dans les détails de ce qui s'est passé. Il est décédé de ta main. On n'ira pas plus loin que ça là-dedans. Ça arrive là. C'est fait là. Parce que j'imagine de ce que j'ai entendu de gens qui sont passés ici, Because I imagine, from what I've heard from people who have passed here, when it happens, you're not there, you're not conscious. Is that your case? You're not really aware of what's going on, of the act?

No. For real, you know, after I left. But what happened in my head? It happened so many times, we fought so many times, that I thought, he'll always come back. That's what happened in my head. I was afraid he'd come back, I left. I hid. I wasn't even aware of what had happened. For you, it was just a... a joint battle, as if there had already been an altercation, and then...

You know, more serious than last time, but... You were aware that it had gotten worse, but you weren't necessarily aware... ...of the gravity. ...of the gravity of the situation. When do you realize the gravity of the situation? When I was arrested. When they told me that I was arrested for murdering my neighbor, I said, well, no. Well, no. Why are you afraid? I didn't even believe it.

I was still in my... it looked like I was in a psychosis or something, but I hadn't realized how serious I was. How long have you been in prison? A couple of days. I stayed locked up at my mother's. The doors were closed. The curtains were closed. I didn closed curtains, everything. I didn't even go out.

Because what we tell in the media is that you went to work right after. That's what you told me earlier when I told you about it. Because I talked about it earlier, your story made an episode of... I don't know if everyone knows this, but it was the show Uncharted so close. They took your story and made an episode. I'm curious, I'm coming back to you. Do they ask you where they just take... Do you have rights? Do you have something? They take your story and make an episode without your version.

They didn't call you, they didn't ask. They just look at what was reported in the newspapers and that's it. Because what he said is that you went in to work with plaster on your fingers because you would have been cut off with the situation. It was impossible for me to get out of my house. I couldn't even move. For real, you know, I fought in that.

I stole from all the furniture in my room. I couldn't even move. It was my sister who helped me wash. So, for the few days before the day I was arrested, I didn't even move. You said you were stuck there. You said you were stuck with your parents. Your sister helped you wash. So, is your family aware of what's going on?

Do you talk about it? What do you think happened? Everything I said when I got home and they saw me like that, I said, I fought. That's all I said to my child. With him? Or did he... Okay. Yes. He knew he was violent and everything, but I didn't say anything else.

So a few days later, you're arrested for the murder of... Yes. You're in an interrogation room. Yes. How does it happen? Do you flinch quickly? How does it happen? I told you, I didn't read it. Did you have a couple's record? Did you have a trial? How does your question about a girl...

And we'll talk about it. It's not long after you're 18. You're 18 and a week. You're a young girl. I don't consider... Sorry, it's girls who are 18 years old who listen to us, but I don't think you're a woman at 18. You may have a quarter of a woman, but you're still a little girl at 18.

And how do you live that? Really, as much the arrest as... Well, I was in shock, in total denial. You know, it took some time. But you know, I said again, yeah, but he beat me. You know, I said that for a long time. You know, I said that for a long time. You know, I blamed him. You were victimizing yourself.

A lot. And you told me you did that for a long time. Yes. What's not the case today, you assume what happened. 100%. I understand there are motives, but I mean, there will never be big enough motives, other than you fighting for your life. I think when that happened, your life was not in danger.

So that's why you weren't accused of legitimate defense, but of the accusation you had. Second degree murder, 100 years of life, possibility of conditional release after 14 years. You did 19 years. If we go back to it, why could you have been released after 14 years and you were released only after 19 years? Were you going to trial? You didn't get any charges a deal. Because, you know, I was still young, I didn't know how it worked and everything. So I was scared. I was scared of life 25. So I said to myself, 14, okay, we'll take it. You know, it seems to me that it was less bad in my head. Did you have a lawyer?

No. A lawyer you paid for? I started with the judge. Then I switched to a lawyer my family knew. Was the lawyer you took a good choice, you think? Today, without putting it on the spot, without what you, after your situation, the whole deal, young mother-in-law, what you had, are you satisfied with your defense?

That's what I would have liked to have less. That's it. It's having the domestic homicide less the life sentence. But what he did, is done. Check. I'm just curious to see, sometimes, would you have preferred to go to trial when he thinks about it today? With what I know now,

and the openness I have now, yes, I would have wanted to do it. But what has been done is done. What was the purpose of the process? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And you know, the openness I have now, yes, I would have liked to do it. But now, what is done is done. What had to happen has happened. And you know, it allowed me to be the person I am now, for real.

In your arrest and your conviction, you're placed on bail, of course, they don't let you go. Yeah. Where did you end up? I spent two years in Tanguy. It was... For real, you know, after all I hear about Leclerc and everything, Tanguy wasn't that bad. You know, it wasn't the best place to be, but... Because at the time, Leclerc wasn't a prison for women yet, that's for sure. It was still a federal prison for women, that's for sure.

It was still a federal prison for a family. No, so I just heard about it, but... You're happy that there's not a thousand feet? Yes. Yes. For those who, in any case, there's Louise Henry, if you don't know Leclerc, go see Louise Henry's episode, we talk about the Leclerc site, and she'll be back. Because things are still happening with Leclerc at the moment, there's a collective recourse that's accepted, in any case. We'll talk about that, Louise will be back. Because there are still things going on with Leclerc at the moment. They have a collective meeting that is accepted. In any case, we will talk about it again.

Louise will come back to the podcast. For the young girl of 18, a bit rebellious, we can say at that time. You go in at 18, and then you say, listen, I see you today, and I suspect that at 18, listen, you must be very, very, very frail. You're still very, very frail, so I imagine that at 18, how is it go? Did you get there, with your eyes closed, stressed out, or how do you live it? Of course I did. But I put myself in everyone's shoes. I'm someone who analyzes the world a lot. I don't talk to everyone's homes. I'm someone who analyzes people a lot.

I don't talk to everyone. So I went to everyone's homes, people came to see me, and everything. I was the youngest. And I stayed the baby for a long time. I was Tanguy's baby. And it was okay, for real. I didn't get anything wrong. Is it a plus when you're in a prison for women, when you're there for the situation you were in? Is it a plus? I don't know if you understand what I'm saying.

Is it a respect? There are probably a lot of women who are in prison who have experienced joint violence and all that, and who could have found themselves in the same situation as you. So, are people more inclined to be cool with you, given the situation? Because, hey, you had the balls to do what we would have wanted to do. I don't know if you... Not that it's cool, but you know, I'm talking about a prison universe, you know, of incarcerated girls, where... Well...

There's no more, there's no less... No. That you were there for theft or that you were there for the situation you were in. No. You wouldn't have seen a difference, you think, the girls? There's a lot less judgment, I think, on the part of women. Is it me or, you know, it's more sustainable? There's less split clicks? Uh... You know, I'd say if you've done a child crime,

it's for sure that you're more like... You know, they're going to judge you a little bit, and then they're going to be your friend. If that's how it works for women, you know, I'd say it's a little more hypocritical. Sorry. No, no, but you're not the first one to hear that. But yeah, you know, they're going to be your friend, they're going to talk behind your back,

they're going to invite you to dinner. That's it. That's it, for girls. And these two years, is it going well, or are while you're in the provincial, because I didn't know where I was going. I didn't know the 100 years. I didn't even know how to get married yet while I was there. You're a little bit biased. You know, you're a little bit biased, I would say. You know, you do a little bit of anything. So, I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know the 100 years, I didn't even know the 100 years yet, while I was there. That's what you're foreseen. So you know, you're a little bit more free, I would say. You know, you do a little bit of anything. So... But... It was okay. It's okay?

Yeah. But I didn't do anything wrong. I'm still good. You know, I left, I'm 18, you know, I wanted to do this, you know, I wanted to show that I wasn't weak either. So I went with the law of the environment. You don't talk about the school, you do your business, you get involved in your business. So I went into that for a long time. We know that in prisons for men, it's very white.

Everyone goes to neighborhoods, sectors, know, it's very separated. Do you live that in Tanguy? Because, listen, I doubt it. When in Tanguy, you're pretty much among the only ones, or even the only ones, I imagine. So you don't find yourself with people from your universe, you know, from your community, if we can say that like that. You're accepted, there are no people, there are no... Did you experience racism in it, precisely? I've never experienced racism in my life. I was lucky for that.

But you know, I grew up in a neighborhood where it was very multicultural. So I never heard of their return to your country or whatever. So I was lucky for real. And in it, you know, everyone is mixed. whatever. 14 ans, tu t'en vas aux peines. Tu as une aigliette. Tu as fait tout ton temps aigliette. Oui. Ça se passe comment? La fille, t'es rendue dans... t'as 20 ans quand ça arrive, t'as la sentence à déposer, tout ça. Tu t'en vas aux peines à 20 ans. Fait que tu sais un peu à quoi t'attendre parce que t'as deux ans de provinciale dans le corps. Ça se passe comment? C'est un autre univers,

par exemple. Vraiment. Tu sais, j'ai passé de deux ans provincial in the body? How does it happen? It's another universe, for example. Really. You know, I spent two years in the tank, I had to do two full years at the most. Because in time, they made me do that to kind of decant a little bit of your sentence, and you know, see, you know, your level of danger, and everything, so I did two years at the max of Joliette. It was like a bit of a unitine, I would say. The max? Yes. You see, I would expect that in a minimum, not a max, you know.

No. There it's like that, you know, it's cells barred, you know, they can debar it from the bubble. But you know, it's a different world. Because the agents down there, they talk to you. You know, they take the time for you, you know, and they're less annoying than the provincial. You know, so... But you know, I'm someone who adapts very quickly.

But you know, I was still in my f**k you mode, where I was a screw, not talking. You know, so I was cocky. So... I worked a little while I was there, you know, because there was nothing to do. You know, and when we move, when you're at the top, everything has to be secured. You can't be mixed with people of the minimum medium.

So all the corridors are all barred. You know, I knew people, already with whom I had spent time in Tanguy. Who were also in Prevenu. Yeah, so they came from the other side of the door, to say hello. So, you know, I still knew a lot of people after all the time I had spent. I was appreciated while I was there. I didn't go to anyone's house, but no one walked on my feet. I brought you back to the provincial school.

During the two years you were there, did you already start working like your internship, maybe a return to school or something, but no, you're... Well, yes, I did... I went to school here and there because I had a lack of attention, so it wasn't easy for me. School was like... I was more of a whiner than anything else, I would say. So it was an on-and-off, my business.

And there's a place for you to understand. I'm not going to judge you on that. But yes, there were more drawings on my desk than there were writings on my notebooks at school. That's it. That's it. And so, federal, you're really fashionable. I missed going to school. I was working and until I finished my second year

to go on the field, which is much more, Jusqu'à tant que je finisse mon deux ans pour aller sur le terrain, qui est beaucoup plus... T'as beaucoup plus de liberté sans avoir ta liberté là. Mais tu sais, tu pouvais marcher sur le terrain. T'sais, nous autres, notre cours à nous autres, il y avait un panier de basket. Fait que là, tu tournais encore et un moment donné, tu sais, tu pouvais aller au gym. Mais tu sais, on est quoi dans le temps? Moi, on était peut-être 10 max. You know, you could go to the gym. But you know, we're in time. We were maybe 10 max. So...

And when you say community 9, it's units closed like little houses, everyone goes to their room. Is there any kind of... Well, it's wings. That's it. You're telling me community 9, so I really have the...

with the kitchen and all that. No, there's no kitchen. No, that's it. There's a microwave, the stove, the dryer, the sink, there's a fridge. At least that's it. You have the cabinets. That's common. And then you're all in. And you're a dozen at the most. We're more, they built other L's, they came up with four L's, I think.

We were just two before. Two or three. And your two years at the most, how did that happen? Well, you know, I worked in the kitchen. It was cool because I could cook for the girls, so I could season a little more. It was fun. And then after a while, you have progressive entries, so you can go from max to the ground, so I went to school. I saw more people, I could talk to more people. Otherwise, I was just hanging out with the same people.

We're all different. There are people with mental health problems. Consumption. Lots of different things. So, yes, I was brought to judge before, because I didn't understand why, like, why did you act like that? Until I realized, we're all different. We all have a different background.

Let's say, my parents are alcoholics, and I'm an alcoholic myself, but it's not her fault, your daughter. That's just what she knew. You know, and that's how I realized, too, over time, my parents... You know, I tried to find why my parents never told me, I love you.

And then, after all that, I realized, but in culture, people don't say, I love you. They never learned that. So how do you want your parents to tell you, I love you, if they never learned it? You know, the others, to tell me they love me, they'll answer the phone. They'll come to see me at the visit. They'll send me soups for my canteen. But I hadn't seen that before.

I was waiting for the why. I want my parents to tell me, I love you. Words were important to me. And after that, I said, well, it's okay. And it's fine. And I will accept them like that. As I learned to accept each person with their differences.

You know, like, what's the point of judging the world? You don't even know what these people went through. You know, they might have gone through the worst, the worst, and then you're there to judge them. Cheap shot. This podcast made me become exactly what you're saying, what your time made you do. I was a person who judged very quickly by appearance, by history, but after more than 60 episodes, to have met people from all over the world who have lived through all kinds of things, I have evolved so much mentally and emotionally with this podcast,

so I can understand you so much. Because sometimes you can get frustrated by how a person acts. But you know, it's up to you that you hurt, in the end. Because it's you that's bothering. You know, people act in a way that they're used to,. They don't even realize they're doing something wrong. It's up to you to go see the person and tell them, or it's up to you to change your mind and do like, check. We never know.

Do you often think about your gesture while you're there? You don't have anything to think about when you're in there, you know? Every day of my life. Again today? Yes. You know, I say all the time, because they work on... You know, they remind you all the time why you're there. You know, I'm able to say...

I'm not able to forgive myself to this day. Because for me, forgiving something is like doing it if it never happened. I can't do that. I'll never be able to do that. You'll never be able to forgive yourself. Because it's like if I said, oh, it's okay, what did I do? No, it's not okay. You know, I live better.

I'm more able to talk about it. To accept. To accept what I did. To accept that I decided to stay in this Maldicine relationship. I could have left, but for me, I was protecting my family. I stayed there even if I was scared. Even if people told me to go, and everything. I was scared and I loved scared. Even if people told me, go ahead and everything. I was scared and I loved it.

I hoped that all the time that it would change, that it would become the person I met at the beginning. But at the end of the day, it's your decision. There's no one who forced you to stay there. Especially no one who forced you to make the repairs. It's my bad choices that brought me there. That's why when I understood that, I stopped blaming him because he was beating me. That's it. It's not correct what he was doing.

No. Did he deserve it? Did he arrive? No. Did you have to leave? Yes, but we're not in the jury. And that's what I'm happy to hear. You were a victim in a certain way. Yes, you were a victim, but you're not the victim of your gesture. You're not the victim of your gesture. I accepted the unacceptable. And that's often what women do.

Too often. They accept by love. And at some point, you have to choose yourself, because you're the most important person. It's your happiness. You know, you can't please everyone and not think about yourself. You're unhappy in the long run. You know, you can't live that all your life. And I know there are so many women who go through that, and they're stuck, and they're stuck, and they're going to stuck their whole lives. But where are you in there?

You do everything for others, but what do the others do for you in the end? And you know, there are a lot of feminicide in recent years. You were in the media in 2021, precisely because you wanted to... When you saw the feminicide rate that was coming, and your goal was to tell people, women, you know, precisely, you know, the whole vehicle is the opposite, you know. But precisely, whether it's on one side or the other, it's not better, you know. So before the irreparable happens on one side or the other, it's not better.

So before the irreparable happens on one side or the other, get out of these relationships. That was your goal when you went out in the newspapers, because it didn't bring you anything. It didn't minimize your gesture, it didn't minimize your pain to do that. It's just you, when you saw the suicide rate that was increasing in recent years, you weren't able to stop yourself from saying, Hey, man, I've been in prison for 15 years because I stayed in a relationship like that.

And I want it to be really important that you don't minimize your gesture. It's not because you've lived that, that you've done that. But it's just that if you had left, because of what you were going through, it probably wouldn't have happened. If I knew that everything I know now, I did programs while I was in there. I worked on myself.

You know, why, to know why I needed so much attention and affection as I need people to love me. To realize that, Chris, I need to love myself. Before anything else. Whether people love me or not, what does it change in my life? We all have the right to our opinions. Freedom of expression. That's good. I talk about it at the beginning of each episode. But, you know, is it really important that the world loves you?

To do everything for those people? You know, you have to think about yourself. And you know, all the feminicides that have happened, I know what it is. I know what it is to want to be loved as much as possible and stay in a bad relationship. And you know, it hasn't been easy. And it's not easy to get out. Because it has to come from you. Everyone can tell you, hey, go ahead, it's not a good person for you. It's easy.

But when you're in the relationship, and you only see the person, and that's the center of your attention, you're afraid that people will put you aside or that you're not important to someone's life, so you'll stay. You were talking about forgiveness earlier, that you think you'll never be able to forgive. Have you had contacts with the victim's family? No. You said you were sorry, but you think you'll never be able to forgive. Have you had any contact with the victim's family? No. You never had any letters, nothing?

No. Is it something you miss? Is it something you would like or think you might not be able to do? Or would you need it? Is it something that would be useful for you in your personal journey? Well, I tell myself, if it doesn't happen, it will. You know, Montreal is big, but it's small. It's possible that I meet people from my old life.

You know, and we'll see that we get there. Is this podcast stressful for you, precisely, in relation regarding the angle of the victim's family? Does this kind of people deserve to see me in a podcast? It's not to surprise you, it's just to know a little bit, you know? Is it something that you're apprehending? It can be, but you know, I tell myself, I've grown up, I've lived, I've learned from my bad choices. I've done programs to become a better person

and never again ensure that something like that happens again. You know, I'm able to manage my emotions, I'm able to talk about them openly. I don't accumulate. It's the accumulation of emotions that was a big thing. A big trigger. That's it. I went to work on that, I went to dig. I saw psychologists.

There were people at the beginning, I didn't want to help. I didn't have any problems when I came in. It was everyone's problem. Until I realized, oh my beautiful, you're not as perfect as you think you are. So I went to dig into the dark sides, I scratched the shots.

Believe me, it was hard. But I said to myself, I said it, I rebelled while I was in there. I spent more time than I had expected because I was getting reports. I didn't have to go in, let's say, in other people's houses. I did it. I didn't have any lynch. I was worn out. So, you know, every time, you know, it takes away the trust of the staff who try to help you. You know, you have to walk straight, you know, and I did this journey for myself,

for my family, for the people who were there for me outside. I was thinking, my life is not that. It's not staying in. You know, I'm not a somebody more because I'm in. I'm not more hot. I don't want that. I'm angry. I want to go out. I have a family waiting for me. People who are there.

You know, and I said that earlier too. I'm grateful to have them again. I could have been all alone for the last 19 years, but they gave me the courage to move forward. You know, I went to get my high school diploma while I was in Penn. I have a one here in the office, I did all the little trainings. J'ai un an ici en bureautique, j'ai fait toutes les petites formations, t'sais, j'ai pas chômé pendant que je suis dans le temps, j'étais pas juste une petite crisse. Comme que je suis rentrée à 18 ans. Oui, ça a pris du temps. Mais maintenant là, tu te mobilises, pis tu te dis, faut que je chôte. C'est tout ça que je veux. Parce que t'sais, c'est long, 19 ans de prison, mais quand tu rentres à 19 ans, t'sais, je veux dire, aujourd'hui, t'es à l'extérieur des murs, là, t'as pas 40 ans, je me tr outside the walls, you're not 40, I'm not wrong, if my maths are good enough, you're not 40 yet.

So 40, it's young, you know, you have to understand that it's not that all your life. In your family, you say emotions, actually, the GPMs, it doesn't feel, but did there have been emotions? When your family saw that, they didn't say, did you have a step back from your family? Or did it depend on them? I don't know if you understand my question. I imagine that you want to go a we're going to get away from this, or from day one, they were there. They were always there. And the day I went to class for the first time, oh my god.

I was still in shock. It was the first time I saw my family crying. I saw my family crying. It was a plus on the weight I had on my back. Because emotions didn't come out in your family, but both good and bad emotions. I never even saw my parents give each other a hug. Or kiss. That's how much they're not affectionate. You know, my family, I don't know about the others. No, I understand.

So I went to look for what I saw with the others. Their parents give hugs and they say, I love you, have a good day. I was like, fuck, why don't I have that? They raised me as best they could. And they were there to support you through the long run. I have a mean, big family. I swear, the day I knew that my release from the condesnation was accepted,

it was crazy. Everyone was going crazy. It looked like they were all grown up. They all met their families, their children, they work and everything. We don't talk all the time, but we're there for each other. If you came home at 2 o'clock, you went out with a brother of 18 years old.

He's going to be 18. He's going to be. So you came home at 2 o'clock, you went out with a brother of 18 years old. He's going to be 18. He's going to be... Yes. Did you see him? Did he come to visit? Did you see him grow up or did you just say, bang, I have a big brother, I have a little brother, but a little brother, big brother, you know... No, we talked quite often on the phone. And when my mother was pregnant, she came to see me every two weeks when I was pregnant.

And two weeks after she went to bed, she came to see me, to show me my little brother. So yes, I saw her grow through the visit. But yes, I saw her. at OLG we celebrate winning every day that's because we make millions of sports and lottery winners across Ontario all year round in the last year we had more than 208 million winning tickets and we gave away more than 2.6 billion dollars in prizes that's a lot of winners and a lot of dreams that came true at OLG every winner has one thing in common. They played. Could you win next? Play in store or at olg.ca and bring home the win.

Winner! Gagnon! Fucking lucky. Honestly, I don't know your family. I'll probably never meet them. But you were really... Despite, I understand how you were raised, it's not easy. But not everyone has the support you had. I mean, you saw girls in there. Imagine that it's not all girls who had family support at that point. No. And even when I went to the police to get out,

the police took the time to thank my family for being there for me. That, I found that, wow. So you never needed to have your family's forgiveness because... Fait que t'as jamais eu besoin d'avoir le pardon de ta famille parce que... Tu sais, on n'est pas... on communique pas beaucoup. Mais tu sais mes parents, ma famille, ils disent tout le temps, check, ça s'est passé. On va pas revenir dessus. On veut pas que tu sois malheureuse. Fait que... Fait que c'était à faire. Reviens-nous. Puis ça a été comme ça tout le long. So what are you going to do? Come back to us. And it's been like that all along. Not knowing, I told you earlier, not knowing the Cambodian culture, you arrived here not all alone.

We don't see her on the screen right now. She's behind me. You arrived with your partner. Yes. Is that accepted in your family, in the Cambodian community, the fact that you have a partner? They got married in the summer. Okay. Yes. But it's not... Is that more difficult than the gesture you asked?

I don't know if you understand. It's just to put culture in your head when... Listen, and I ask the question without even... I doubt myself a little because, you know, I know people who grew up in Asian families, and I know that it's still quite... We may not be in 2024 in the brain of everyone in certain cultures, you know.

Here in the West, the Quebeckers, we are very, very open-minded, more and more. But that's why I ask the question. They are very closed, I would say, the Quebeckers, are very open-minded, more and more. But that's why I'm asking the question. They're very closed, I'd say, the Asians. Maybe not anymore, because it's evolved. It's true that they're in Quebec, anyway. That's it. But if they love me, well... That's it.

I have to think about my happiness, about myself too. If I stopped thinking about what people say about me and what people think about me, I wouldn't be the person I am right now. That's right. You need to focus on yourself, your future, your happiness. If your family loves you and wants you to be happy, if that person makes you happy, you have to accept it. Yes. And then, are there things you can do? And my goal is not to put you in trouble, even though I don't think it would change anything.

But I know that right now you're in the transition zone. Yes. You did, you were 14 years old before your liberation request, you did 19. How much is it because you were in a wing that you weren't supposed to be in, that you were wearing a suit that you weren't supposed to be in? Did you go further than that to accumulate 50 more than you should have done? Well, I was still in denial. I still didn't want to know anything about. For me, I'm myself, and you're yourself. And you won't tell me what to do, and I'll do what I want when I want.

I was in this minding, and I was like, I don't know, I don't know what to do. I was like, I don't know what to do. I was like, I don't know what to do.

I was like, I don myself, and you're yourself, and you won't tell me what to do, and I'll do what I want when I want. I was in that minding for years. The little 14-year-old rebel has stayed in you for a long time. How long did it take Manique? It was when Manique clicked you, OK, you're a jerk. Take it, take it, and work on it,

because you're going to spend your life here. Well, it started to be a long, long time, my business. And I thought, you know, I didn't have the opening I have now. You know, I was like, I didn't talk to many people. I didn't want anyone to know my business. You know, I was ashamed of what I did. So I didn't want to the world. I didn't want anyone to know about my business. I was ashamed of what I did. I didn't want to be revealed. I didn't want people to see the dark side.

I always wanted to be seen as a strong person who was able to do everything by herself. That side was more vulnerable. I didn't want anyone to see that. You know, it didn't seem like the person I was trying to show to the world that I was. After 14 years, when you had the right to make your first request for release, I imagine you did it after 14 years. Yes. If you, who refused, of course. Yes. If you, after that, of course. Yeah.

If you, after that, they gave you the reasons why you didn't get it, that you decided to step up your game, I'm going to put it in parentheses, you step up your game, in saying okay, is that where you had the click of I'm going to pass, if I work, I don't start working under this mold. Well, there was also the fact that, yes, I had started to make a path on myself and everything, but it was not too recent for them. Because they thought I was doing it to get out. To get out, yeah.

So for them, it was necessary that it was normal that they make sure that what I learned in the program and everything is anchored in me. And that situations like the one I went through, it doesn't start again. That I don't get involved in unhealthy relationships. That's why now they check all the relationships with whom I'm in a relationship or whatever. It's part of my conditions. And I understand now. It's their job that I don't go back into for what I did again, that I don't resign. You know, so...

But I could have done my rebellion again, and do like, I worked hard. You don't let me out. Fuck you. I could have done that. But I said to myself, I worked too hard. I couldn't let go of the thought of, fuck you. I could have done that. But I thought to myself, I worked too hard. Too hard to get back to who I was before.

That made me zero happy. I was really hot, because I did what I wanted, and I had no problems. But I felt much freer to express myself, to say what I think, without being afraid of judging others. And to be able to talk about my emotions openly, why I feel a way, whether it's good or not. You know, it's right to talk about it.

You know, no shame. How did you see other detainees? You know, like I said, I didn't talk to many people. You know, so I spent all my time on snub. OK. You know, like, I'm above everyone and everything. But yet, when you learn to know me and everything, the world is realized.

Jesus Christ, this girl is the most nasty thing that exists. You know, I'm so simple, I'm so easy to live. You know, I went through life, oh, it's controlling. It's easy to judge the world because, you know, there are a lot of people with no respect for them. Did you have friends in there? Did you make friends with people you knew? At first, I talked to everyone. Until people started to trouble me. Then I made my circle of friends smaller.

Then I chose the people I wanted to be surrounded by people. Are you comfortable with that? When you say you're in trouble, are you comfortable with going a little bit on what you've been through? Everyone who's in it knows that people are snitching out of jealousy, for whatever reason, to get back on their feet and everything. But if people snitch at you because they have things to blame you for too? It can be for anything, really. At the end of my shift, I went to the police to have a few outings. So I went to do volunteer work outside. I came back every day with a volunteer. I had my outings at my mother's.

I could spend a maximum of eight hours at my parents' house once a month. I had little outings if and when I was going to the DAA, also Dependent Affective Anonymous. Okay. And I had a lot of outings, so it made people jealous. Okay. Euh... pis ici j'avais beaucoup de sorties, fait que là ça rendait le monde jaloux. T'sais, fait que là le monde il avait commencé à dire, ah, on sait ben elle, a snitch de monde pour avoir qu'est-ce qu'elle veut. Okay.

Là... Il tombait une étonne de ras. Ouais, genre. Fait que là je me disais, si seulement tu savais le travail que j'ai fait toutes les fois que j'ai pleuré, pis tout. When you knew the work I did, all the times I cried and everything, I just want to focus on myself. I just want to do well for myself. I'm not going to let anyone down to get back at me. You went into a violent episode, did you experience violence? assez violente. T'as-tu vécu de la violence en dedans? Est-ce que t'as eu des épisodes de violence que t'as subi ou que t'as eu à défendre?

Je sais que les raisons pour femmes, l'allée à violence est beaucoup moins présente, mais je sais qu'il y en a quand même, tu sais. C'est rare. C'est rare, c'est ça. C'est plus... Ça va être plus de la parole. You know, there's people who are showing off. I fought, I'm here, I'm that, and I'm like, OK. To try to get back up. You know, it's... That's it. When you have a base of esteem for yourself, you're going to try to get back up so that the world is impressed.

And I find that sad because I have a lot more respect for you if you're you. I don't need to know that you have a house, you have a plane, you have this. It's like nothing in my life. You're in the same place as me. I'm going to take the time, I'm going to sit with you for the times I want to learn how to read someone's book. Because there are so many people who come in for 6 or 8 months. I'm an idiot. I don't even remember your name. 5 minutes later you told me.

But the people that... I'm someone who goes with the vibe I feel. And if my gut feeling tells me, this person is intriguing me, I'm sit down, I'll jizz. And, you know, talk to me about your family, talk to me about your plans, talk to me about, you know, anything. But I don't want to know that you're throwing up outside

or you're a girl or you're a girl outside. It doesn't interest me, it's not important. You know, you're important now. You know, it's you now that's important. You know, so... Yes, I have it. You know, I'm still in contact with some girls or people who have made time. I'm still in contact with them, they're still there. You know, they've lived in prison like me, so they know what it is. But we've created solid bonds.

It's clear. Yeah. It's clear. Yeah. That's clear. All the people I know who have done go-kutan, that's it. There are people who will never be able to get out of their lives because that's it. You went through so much hardship with these people that... You know, I can count them on one hand, but they're dead people. You know, they're part of my family now.

So... Behind the walls, there's consumption. Yes. Both in terms of alcohol and drugs. Is it something you've been working on during your time? Before you came in, was it something that was in your life? I tried, like all young people, to have some cool, to be part of the gang. I would say I smoked weed quite often when I was in Tanguy. But I don't drink.

Yes, I tried, I tried the babush like everyone else. It's disgusting. I can't believe people can drink that. I think it's just an intoxication more than anything else. You're not drunk, you're just intoxicated. It's like the mushroom, that's it. It's an intoxication when you make mushrooms. I've never done that. I've seen it in the world of my life and everything.

And I was like, it's disgusting. It's all about fermentation and everything. When you have to steal bread and fruits and everything to make sugar and coffee, I'm like, oh, it really tends you. You're in it because you have an alcohol problem. You're there and you do it again. Well, it's proof that when you have an alcohol problem,

you're just there to have the feeling that you're ready to, you know... When you're old enough to film patch of nicotine with parsley... Hey, I saw people on the ground, they put their four legs to cut grass. I'm like, what are you doing? Well, I'm filming grass with the patch. Ah, okay. You're missing that point at point, on your tea pockets.

Eee! Okay. I don't judge you. It's just... That's it. For you, it wasn't a problem. Consumption. There's traffic in there too.

Yeah. Did you stay away from that or... As you had... Yeah. Did you stay away from that or... As you had... Yeah. As you had a family that you supported and that you were... Yeah. That you were going to deposit for the canteen and all that, you didn't feel the need to have to make money.

Because that's it, there are people who go to the canteen, but they don't have a family, they don't have a home, so they find the means to... Well, you know, I would say on the side of the girls, it's not like that. You know, at Penn, it's a little harder to do. And you know, I don't even get along with this world, you know, I don't even consume it. So it's not something that I miss, you know?

Conditional liberation. How long have you been outside of the walls? 100%? You haven't been back, you haven't been visiting, you've been released, you've emptied your stock, you've left with your bags. Since July last year. So it's been a little over a year. Yes. You've been directly at Maison Transition since your release. Yes. Have you been at the same Maison Transition since the beginning? Yes. How. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Do you find the transition harder than time? When I went out, I had to go shopping and stuff, but the first day I went out, I was allowed to go shopping at 1 o'clock. Even if my sister had already brought me some stuff and everything. So then, she said, Okay, you have an hour. You go to the pharmacy, you buy your stuff, you come back. Okay. So I already had my cell when I went out. My sister had brought me my cell, but she forgot my charger.

So then I said, Okay, I have to buy a charger, I need to buy a charger, I need to buy a cadena because I didn't have a room all by myself. I had a room. So I had money and everything on me. And I didn't know the world, so I had to buy a cadena to borrow my money, my cards. So I went to the pharmacy, I check, I'm all amazed. This is the first time I went out alone in 19 years, without anyone to accompany me. I'm used to having someone... Not a volunteer, not a crew, not a family.

When I'm left alone, I look everywhere, I wonder if anyone is following me. I get to the pharmacy, I check, I'm all amazed, I touch everything, because I'm like that. I like to touch, I like to the pharmacy, I check, I'm all amazed, I touch everything, because I'm like that. I like to touch, I like to feel. You know, when you're used to feeling the same things all the time, you're in the canteen. You know, you have the canteen for a year. For a year, you feel the same thing as everyone else. So you arrive in a place, you can feel everything. Oh my God, I was like a child at

Toys'R'Us. So then I say to myself, OK, my charger. I buy my charger, I walk around, you wake me up with stars and everything. I come back to the transition, I forget my gun. Because I was too amazed, I was too, I was focused on my charger, my phone. I forgot my gun. I was like, oh shit. But at the end of the week, I could go out with my family. And you know, I was used to it. It's been 19 years that I've been with, yes, different people,

but you know, no more than 90. I know everyone, everyone knows me, tout le staff me connaît pis tout. Là, la première, la fin de semaine, je décide d'aller au Marche-Aupus à deux stages. J'ai fait une crise d'anxiété, une crise de panique. Y'avait trop de monde. J'étais pas habituée. Agoraphobie... Tellement! T'sais pis une chance que ça m'a pas pris de temps. T'sais, au début, quand les agents me demandaient, I was so stressed out. And luckily, it didn't take me long.

At first, when the agents asked me what I was going to do outside, I said, I'm going to adapt quickly. It won't take long. Don't worry. They said, she's going to think magic, that everything will be fine. But that's because I know myself. I know I'm adapting quickly. Yes, it's going to stress me out. It stressed me out quickly. Yes, it will stress me. It will stress me to take the bus and the subway by myself.

You will be afraid to lose me all the time. So, it's been a while since I used Google Maps. Sometimes, it's a pain in the ass. Google Maps. I struggle with it. Especially in Montreal, sometimes it's fast. Yes, but there is so much work everywhere. And here, and there, and the stops and they stopped the subway. But I adapted. I took a step at a time.

When I got back, I was talking about the stress I was going through. Before leaving, I said, I'm stressed, I'm afraid I'll be late. I plan my trips all the time before, to be sure to know, OK, I have to do this, I have to go there. But wait be sure that I was doing okay. I had to go there. But wait, in the bus and in the subway, I checked it ten times because I forgot what it was. So, it took maybe a week, two weeks. I was good.

It was going to be a mark. That's it. If I tell myself, one day at a time, we're not going to project ourselves further. We're going to go one day at a time, and today I have to do this, I have to do that, I had to open a bank account. You know, it was crazy. You adapted to technology, you went in with flip phones that barely took pictures, and then you go out, you're like,

the most powerful computer you've ever seen in your life that you make by hand. But the outings I had at my mother's house, it helped me. Everyone had smartphones, so I could chat and all that. So I knew a little bit. But it really adapted me to,

OK, it's not just a 2-3 hours to nag after, it's how it works, OK, if that, applications, you know, because we don't have a course on how an intelligent phone works inside. It's crazy, it should be something. So much, so much. But you know what's cool? They help you make a plan of exit before leaving. While in the provincial, they will let you go out with your brown bags, and they will rob you. But you know, the girls who are in the street or whatever, they go in,

they are well fed, they work, they have money on their side, but they get out of there, there is no plan. They are left to themselves, what do you think happens? We talked a lot about the provincial, unfortunately. You know, they say, well, it's not been that long that you're here to be disconnected from the street, and since it's smaller sentences, but... That's not true! You're so structured, because, you know, I have people who, you know...

I'm not saying I'm wrong, but, you know, from what people say, you've been doing a lot of work when you're in prison. You have nothing to manage. No. Pay a bill, do a grocery, do your food. You have nothing to manage. You're a 5-year-old child who has everything. You're structured from A to Z. You come from outside and you have to do everything yourself.

You have to start over to manage your life. It's been 19 years since everyone has done everything for you. Life is expensive. It's crazy. Like a flat you paid, let's say, a 4.5 to 525 in the time I came in, it's made 1,200. And with 1,200, you don't have much. You know, your apartment is half-2. So now it's crazy. You know, I have to pay my rent, my bus pass, which is made 100.

It's all managed, everything goes fast. You know, in the inside, we would have your life stop. You know, it's always the same things that happen, then, ah, who, who caught up with who, ah, who, who beat who. Outside, we are on the list of who did what. You are so focused on your life, what is happening, and everything that... We want to stimulate now, listen, and everything. Over-stimulated. Now, listen, our brain is stimulated by three seconds. I get up in the morning to go to work, I get up early. I'm going to work all day, I come back, I don't even have time to do anything.

Sometimes my friends tell me, do you want to come and chill? I don't have time. I don't have time. Without naming the place where you work, because we want people to clap. But what do you do? Are you able to say without mentioning where you work? I'm a signaler. Ah! Nice!

Yes. It's a good job, moreover. I like that. How did you get that? It's a signal. You know, while you're at Penn, they pay for the training to do that. Plus the ISP construction. You know, there's a couple of training courses that, you know, if you really want to get out of there while you're there... At Penn. We're going to talk about Penn because we just talked about the provincial one. They're going to help you.

If you want to help, they're going to help you. Because they have a plan to go out help you. If you want to help, they will help you. Because they will make a plan to go out with you. If your plan to go out is not structured, you don't know where you're going, what are you going to do? Well, your release will not be accepted. They won't let you in the street. If you have nowhere to go, they will find you a home or whatever. They will help you. You didn't do those things to get your freedom.

You did those things because when you were free, you wanted to have a life. Yes, yes. I did them all because I thought, maybe at some point this training will help me. Or this one, or that one. It's good. I did more training and studies than many people. I didn't work while I was there. We never know if we need something.

I never thought about doing this, being in construction. I'm going to do it again. I would like to do a certificate in intervention, as soon as I'm done. I'd like that. I think you could be a good person who could help young people. Listen, I think this podcast will surely help and light up the world.

I hope so. And I think you would be a good person. I would say, hey, Gan, that's what I lived. You don't want to live that. Yes, there's the side where we talk about relationships, but it doesn't matter. There are a lot of young people, whether they're street gang members or even if it's a girl, you can say, hey, wait.

It's easy to be in the street. Because there are some, you know, I don't think they're any less good. But you know, there are some that I don't think are as good, but, you know, there are some that do their studies, that go with what is written in the books, and what they read, and everything. But, you know, when you've lived through that, when you've grown up through that, you know what you're talking about. You know, you know what to say exactly. Because, you know, as I said, there are a lot of people who said, oh, go ahead and do it, and everything.

But you know, you don't know what I've been through. So you can't really understand, you can think that... But you know, when you've been through it, you've been in it. And then you go out, you see all the red flags. So then you're going to say, OK, you know, that person is like that, that person is like that. You know, he may have's experienced that and everything. You're more alert to the little signs.

And you're more able to help the person in front of you. You say something, but you don't even think about it. He hasn't experienced it, you don't know. You read it, but you haven't experienced it. There are even specialists who say, oh, such and such a thing. I say, but how do you know? Have you experienced it? No offense. Have you experienced it?

There is a difference. You know, so... But that's a bit of it. You know, there are a lot of people who see me in podcasts. I'm talking about the third world, because I talk about it with a lot of people. It's my daily life, it's my life, but I can't talk about it as much.

I even did a podcast here called Deux Princes, which is shot here, and we have a lot, a lot of people have come to my daily life, it's my life, but I can't talk about it as much. I even did a podcast here called Le Deux Princes, which is shot here, and we have a lot of people in prison. And now, I tell them, well, you're not a specialist. I haven't lived it, but you know, it's the information I have from people. Because, you know, I think that now I know more about it than I knew, and probably more than a lot of people, because I mean, it's become my daily life to talk to people who have lived that, who have gone through that. But precisely, I could never go into details because I haven't lived it, because I don't know it, you know, that's exactly it. There's one thing I want to say thank you give these training, and to give people the chance to get involved with a good job.

I don't want you to tell us how much you earn, but I know there are still numbers on the construction, so I know you're at least for the salary when you're a signaler, so you still have a good salary. I know a lot of people who are out and who can't find a job for this, for that, for that, but when you want, you can. There are programs that are there to help. Before I left, I already had a job that expected me.

I explained my situation, and yes, it was a reinsertion place. We were fully open, and it didn't work because the training I was doing, I was going there to acquire new skills. But I had already learned what they were teaching me. So I had the impression of turning around and doing nothing. And that wasn't my goal. So I gave up. I found myself another job, but during the winter,

they don't do any signalling unless you do it with snowmobiles and all that. But it's going to be okay. It's cold. I'm shivering. Fuck off. But the time it took me to find another job, it took at least a month and a half to find another job. It's hard. They have a lot of job requests, but no one remembers. Every day, for a month and a half, I was on a date, I sent CVs and everything. No one remembered.

But they're looking for a lot of people. So I know how hard it is. You're getting yourself under the skin. I had already found a job before I left, but people who go out and look for a job, it's not the same. Do you think it's easier for a girl to go out than for a guy to go out? I don't know. For real, I don't know.

Inside, guys create contacts, they knew the person who knew the person. With girls, it's not the same thing. So I did what I had to do. I did my CV. I sent my CV through Indeed and everything. I waited. After that, I got a more correct job. But it wasn't stimulating enough for me.

Yes, people will think, oh, she's a signaler, she's a jack stick and everything. But do you know the risk I'm taking for that? Hey, the drivers in Montreal, they're crazy. You know, there's construction everywhere, there's accounts everywhere, you block the street. The world is crazy. The world is crazy. I'm almost paid to piss you off. No joke.

But I was lucky, I almost got hit once. Because he wanted to go through and I blocked the street and he lived right there. I'm like, I don't want to piss you off for real. I was given instructions. I followed her. The street is blocked. You can't pass. The other can't pass. No one can pass. The guy said, fuck you, I'm going through the same thing. I swear I had time to step my foot back. 10 seconds if he didn't roll over me.

You know, so... And you're always on the street side. second, s'il ne me roulait dessus. Tu sais, fait que... Pis tu sais, t'es tout le temps sur le bord de la rue, là, tu sais, le monde passe vite pis tout. Pis y en a qui... qui drive, ils s'en collent, ils se regardent pas, je suis là avec mon flag. Fait que c'est dangereux, là. Pis tu sais, être debout pendant

des neuf, dix, onze heures de temps au soleil, essaye de faire ça, voir. Pis après ça, dis-moi que j'ai une job facile pis que je fous rien. I'm in the sun for 9, 10, 11 hours. Try to do that. Then tell me I have an easy job and I don't have to do anything. Honestly, when there are flashlights, I was on the highway for six years on a platform. I often jumped on my platform to not be picked up. It's frustrating because then they go and they crash.

Then, oh, Chris, there, he sees you and oh, Christ, they see you, and... No, it happened to me a couple of times, you jumped on my own platform, and how much? And I'll tell you, she's been 19 years since she was a teenager, can you say that if you're hot, you're in Tabarnak, and you hit someone who's on the street, who does his job,

wait, don't just tap your fingers, you'll find where you are. So, take your gas level, there's nothing worth 5 minutes of delay against 15 years of prison. Think about that next time you want to crash a road sign. But we're here to keep the safety of motorists and pedestrians safe. Guys who work there too, there's a lot of people. You're not blocking a street for your personal pleasure? Well no.

There are a lot of people who say, it's easier than your job. But... Since you've had your liberation, have you been able to get back up to open conditions? Never. Never. I know what it is. So am I going to risk my freedom for anything? We had more than 208 million winning tickets, and we gave away more than $2.6 billion in prizes. That's a lot of winners, and a lot of dreams that came true.

At OLG, every winner has one thing in common. They played. Could you win next? Play in store or at olg.ca and bring home the win. Winner, Gagnon. I don't know how you met her. Did you meet her since you left? Did you meet her while you were in there? While I was in there.

Did you meet her while you were in there? Yes. Did you meet her while you were in there? Yes. Did you meet her while you were in there? Yes. Did you meet her while you were in there? Yes.

Did you meet her while you were in there? Yes. Okay. So you spent time with her. We'll talk about it, unless I don't know how much we can talk about it, but I really want to focus on you. So it was a court of law with you. Yes. Yes. 19. You go in to... Listen, without you being a layman, if you don't want us to go there, it's the first time

I'm going to get into this subject. I don't even think I've ever been with men. You were a heterosexual woman because you were with a partner. Yes. You turn 18, you're young, it's often when we do our experiments, you're surrounded by women. Did you become that because you were just surrounded by women?

Did you no longer consider yourself a heterosexual? Or did life just make you feel that you feel like you're not your orientation? It's this person. It's the human, the human and not the outside shell that now... It doesn't really matter. The person can be the help in the eyes of Mr. or Mrs. or anyone else, but when you learn to know her, that's what changes. You know, everyone says, oh, I want a woman or a man, such, such, such, like that.

You know, it happens when it happens. When you look for it, and especially if you have criteria, read this, you will never find the right person who you will be able to check at all your criteria. You know, the person one day will hit you in the face, she will not be like you. You know, you have to accept the person as she is. You know, you have to love a person unconditionally.

Does it help to make a difference when you're with someone? Of course it does. Of course it does. Is it seen as bad by the environment, by the system, as by other prisoners, to be in in common with someone behind bars? I would say that the system, since I'm in it for a conjugal context, they will check all my relationships. To make sure that the person is not a nuisance to me, or that they don't help me move forward in life, or who make me back down.

It's normal. I got used to it. And now that I'm able to make more clear choices in my relationships, in anything, they see it. They saw that, OK, she knows where she's going, she knows what she's doing, she's making good choices now. It wasn't always the case, but I rectified myself with time. And I always have to think about the consequences before doing anything. You're starting off now too? Yes. Did she get released before you?

Yes. Long before you? Yes. A long time before you? Yes. How many years? How many months, whatever? Do you know about it? Five years. Five years.

And you kept the relationship? Yes. Was it tough? Yes, it was tough. Did you have the right to come visit her? Yes, it took time. Because that's it. I mean, if she's open, she clearly has a criminal record.

It took time because even if she knew her, she wouldn't have finished her job. She was a little bit of a pain. She was a little bit of a pain. She was a little bit of a pain. She was a little bit of a pain. She was a little bit of a pain. She was a little bit of a pain. She was a little bit of a pain. She was a little bit of a pain. It took time. Because that's it. I mean, if you're open, you're clearly having a criminal case. It took time because even if he knew her, she hadn't finished her time. She was in the condition room. So we got there.

We went through a lot of obstacles. And we didn't know too much because all the relationships people have, usually it doesn't happen, unfortunately, because of the distance and everything. It wasn't easy, but we got there. And that means your relationship can work behind the scenes, it might not work in society. Because we're not the same. You know, well, yes, we're the same anyway. No, but...

But you know, it's different. But it's because there are so many things outside that you don't have inside. It's for sure that you have a proximity inside that it's easy to get away from someone you've met inside. Because inside, if you let someone, you're caught in front of them like 24x7. You know, there's no corner where you can hide. You're not used to it. Not just blocking your salt. That's it. You're in the canteen at the same time.

It's the same thing in the canteen. But it's fast. We have other responsibilities while we're outside. So... Do you think that your journey, that this person, helps you in your daily journey, helps you become the person you are today, the mentality you have today, with a person who knows you there,

who doesn't judge you, who... It's the support you have. That helps a lot in your journey. If you don't have support, it looks like you don't have a pillar. So I was lucky to have all the people around me now, and it helped me. It gave me a boost of energy and motivation to become the person I am now.

Are you ashamed, Jean-Vier? Yes, I am. I really am. Do you have a stress that comes with that? No. No, because you know... To be 100% free? No. No, because I am already. I already feel it.

You know, anything outside of the Ben. Check. What I'm saying is that it's been a structure that still holds you on the right track. No, no, but I'm asking you, you know, because I'm saying you're in transition, so you still have certain rules to follow, you know, I'm saying you still have a certain framework. That's why I wonder, after, you know, 19 years of a framework, and a year and a half of transition, do you still have your full freedom? Because it's not something that would be easy for you, because you've been in transition for a long time.

It wasn't a one-way street, you know, it's not a transition for nothing, it's just to make the transition. But you know, it's... You know, it sucks because I spent a lot of time, but you know, it's well done anyway because, you know, they went through the steps. Since I've been there for a long time, you know, I've had outings. I've had, you know, when I went out, I didn't have totally freedom,

like you want to do, whatever. You know, I had 96 hours of outings per month. You know, all my hoursavais 96 heures de sortie par mois. T'sais, toutes mes heures étaient comptées pendant les six premiers mois. Fait que je peux pas faire n'importe quoi, là. Si j'allais, mettons, au dépendeur, whatever, ben ça l'enlevait une heure de mon temps. Il me reste, t'sais, 95 heures. T'sais, c'est 95 heures qu'il me reste à faire mes commissions, voir ma famille pis tout, t'sais. Après ça, j'ai eu plus de liberté pendant six mois. 95 hours left to do my work, see my family and everything. After that, I had more freedom for six months. I had all my weekends. All the weekends I could go home.

After that, it was a little more. A little more. And after that, it's going to be my freedom. It's really in grade. So I'm not going to be like, I have all my freedom. Well, no. I'm prepared going to be like, I have all my freedom. No, I'm prepared for that. You approached me to do the podcast. Thank you so much for that.

How does it work? I know that people who work in the prison environment, listen, they write to me and I appreciate it a lot. On m'écrit et je l'apprécie beaucoup. Pis j'ai un peu appris en même temps avec toi que aller faire une entrevue c'est pas nécessairement bien vu. Aller faire une entrevue au podcast, au parloir, ça passe mieux dans le système parce que le podcast a une réputation pis les gens du système comprennent que c'est pas justement on est pas là pour bâcher contre le système, on est vraiment, on se concentre sur l'histoire des gens. The podcast has a reputation and people from the system understand that we're not there to bash against the system. We're really focusing on the history of people. And there are people who work in the middle who tell me that the podcast helps them understand the people with whom they work, their clients, as they call me.

And did they have a lot of appreciation when you told them about it at the beginning? I think they were more afraid that if there was people who would write bad comments, how would I handle it? Because managing emotions is something that is important to me in my journey. That's what led me to commit my crime. And for real, I've reached the point in my life where you can say what you want. You can judge me. I can be the worst person on earth. It's you. You've worked hard on yourself.

I've worked hard to know who I am and what I'm worth. You know, and I'm not here to bash anyone, for real. You know, if it hadn't been for certain people from the correctional service who believed in me for years, even if I was quiet and I didn't want to know anything, they were still there to help me. I wouldn't know where I am now. You have no remorse towards the system? Zero. It's me. It's me who was a little bit of a crisis when I came in,

who didn't want to know anything. Now, I would never be as grateful to have met these people. You know, yes, they have some. They can say, ah, but they're scams and everything. It's not everyone who is in this category. There are beautiful people who are there to help you. You know, and if you want to help them, they will be there. I say it often.

There are bad policemen, there are good policemen,. There are bad cops, there are good cops, there are good scouts, there are bad scouts. There are good plumber, there are plumber eating shit. And you understand, you know, I'm humorous, and there are humorous people who are super hungry, and there are people who eat shit, and people who do their job well, there are some in all areas.

Well, yes. There are some who are dog-like. But you know, you can't put them all in the same category. You know, they are, yes, there are some who are dogs, but you can't put them all in the same category. Yes, they are paid to do what they do, but these people are humans. How many people told me, I thought of you, and I was like, that's really cool. You know, there are some volunteers and staff who came to my house, to my family, who saw what was going on in my house. Because sometimes they doubt. They doubt you because they say, Do you say that because, like,

let's say, in relation to my crime, you don't want to talk about your family because, like, you're closed or it family is like that. But when they came to us, they saw that my family didn't want to talk about it. They don't want me to go through all this shit. They don't want to live it either. That's right. It's their job to validate. They can't believe anything because there are some who say, fuck it, to see what they want.

But you know, to the point where I'm like, I'm only going to hurt myself if I lie. So if I open up and I say how I feel, as it is, without hiding anything, it's much more advantageous to be yourself than to live in a lie all the time. I'm not openly talking about what I did. I decided to do it because I'm in the right place. Because it's going to do me good.

And it's going to help the world understand my story. Stop judging or saying anything. You know, yes, I don't care, but it's just not... Check. I'm not my own delinquent. I'm not a bad person because I took someone's life. Hey, I'm getting my head around all the crises of my life. You just don't know because I don't show it. I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things.

I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things.

I've been through a lot of things. I've been through a lot of things. before making a gesture. And you know, I will never hurt anyone. You know, it's an isolated event. And you know, I learned from my bad mistakes that I made. Well, I mean, that's how we build ourselves, that's how we grow, by learning from our mistakes. And it's something I've repeated often, and I'll never repeat it enough. A gesture doesn't define us for the rest of our lives.

A gesture, a gesture, it's not... You know, even if your gesture is... And I'm not afraid to tell you in front of you, and I'll tell them, it's unforgivable. It's unforgivable. And you assume it, but you yourself say, you're your own little boy, you've got enough in your head,

you don't need the others to do it. I'll say, if the system, even if it's not perfect, You're your own It wasn't my time. And you could have left after 22. If you hadn't been ready, there's a year and a half. The years I've spent more, it reinforced me. You know, as I said, I could have fallen back. But no, it made me stronger, and I told myself I'm going to work harder. And I'm going to be even better as a person than I try to be every day of my life. You know, I'm not perfect, because I've done all the programs, and no. But perfect person.

Every day, I learn something new, and I grow in it. Every situation for me has a reason to be on my way. It's not that I understand something. Sometimes you don't even say, someone's been hitting on you for an hour. You don't know why she's there. But the person taught you to be patient. Who knows? Sometimes you don't even say it, someone's hitting you in the face. You don't know why she's there. But the person taught you to be patient.

Who knows? I have a lot of meetings with the job, and there are a lot of people who stop, who ask me questions, and everything. It makes me happy. I like it. It doesn't mean that this person will be in my life all my life, but you know, whether it's a smile, you know, I'm always in good hands. Why? Because we have only one life to live. And if I was always angry, like I was before, you know, I still hesitate to do everything, I wasn't like that. Now, you know, I open my eyes to everything that's going on,

and I take advantage of life. Because I know what it is to lose your freedom. I had a child when I came home. I was 18 years old for a week. Who would have thought that I would have done all these years for me. But that's what was written in my book of life. I lived it, I grew up, I'm here today with you. And you know...

And thank you for being there. Thank you for your openness. Thank you for assuming who you are, what you have done. And especially thank you for approaching me. Honestly, I think it's one of the most interesting podcasts because I listened to the first girl I received who spent so much time. Your pauses, your calm, I found that really nice to go deep into all of this. Thank you for your open mind. And good luck to you.

I wish you 40 beautiful future years. The first 40 have not been in vain. We will wish that the next 40 years to be happy, to listen. You did what you did, you assumed what you did, you paid for what you did. You're still among us, so I think you can bring something to society. And congratulations for that. Good luck for the future. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

And I really hope that I will have helped that it's a person. It's the result of a unhealthy relationship. It's not easy, but there's people there to help you if there's something. In any case, I think this podcast will at least educate people. Maybe light up a light bulb. I hope so. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Parloir. I'm sorry. and we'll see you next time. more than 208 million winning tickets. And we gave away more than $2.6 billion in prizes.

That's a lot of winners and a lot of dreams that came true. At OLG, every winner has one thing in common. They played. Could you win next? Play in store or at olg.ca and bring home the win. Winner, Gagnon.