Back Side - Arthur TV Clashes With Theo Baker, Tom Parties With Wayne Lineker And A Shocking Revelation!

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

If you'd like to work with us, email the studio on [e-mail] by The Fellas Studios: https://fellasstudios.com/podcastsTheo:https://youtube.com/c/HiMalfoyhttps://youtube.com/c/TheoBakerVlogsOllie:https://youtube.com/c/reevhttps://youtube.com/c/OllieFletcherTom Garratt:https://www.youtube.com/@TomGarratt10Lewis:https://www.youtube.com/@lewisbowden1 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to a new episode of Backside with me, Reeve, Theo Baker, Tom Garrett and Lewis Bowden. If you haven't already hit follow, why not tap it right now for new episodes every week. And if you want to see more Backside, catch us on YouTube, TikTok and Instagram, where all you have to do is search Backside. Let's get into it. Hello Arthur. Hello lads, how's it going? I went to Ibiza recently. You met your idol? Ocean Beach Ibiza. When he comes out right, how's it going? I went to Ibiza recently. You met your idol? Ocean Beach Ibiza. When he comes out, right, it's genuinely like, they've just got him out the freezer at the back,

give him a slap and just like pushed him out and he's just like stumbling around here going, yo, what you here for? You having a good time here? Went to go watch the F1 movie, that was pretty sweet though. There's actually like a funny scene, Lewis Hamilton is the producer, so whips back his hair and looks sexually at the camera.

And you can just imagine him setting that up. If you were stripped butt naked, now nothing on you and someone just clicked their fingers and you went back 500 years, how would you prove you're from the future? I'm going to create a plane and electricity. Okay, explain how that works. Copper. With which they don't know what is. Do you know what the Bronze Age was, mate?

I'd guarantee you I'd get further in life than you guys. Oh yeah. Have you guys seen the poop crews up to their knees in like human piss and shit? Obviously haven't seen it. Why would you not just piss and shit over the side? People were pissing but because of the way the cruise liners were, they were pissing and it was like... Yeah yeah, it hit the lower deck! What kind of science experiments could you conduct where you could be like, I understand everything in a very simple level?

But I don't! This is why, if there was a zombie apocalypse, kill me! Oh my god, I actually cracked it! You could say, get in I'll show you where is anything pissed off in the last week Spinoza He didn't believe in free will bit weird. So do you disagree with this? Do you ever feel like sometimes this might sound a bit weird do you ever feel like sometimes You know when you're doing like a rock art, you know, the rock hard shit's which hurt I do you ever think like sometimes like they're coming out sideways like a rock hard? You know the rock hard shit's which hurt. I do you ever think like sometimes but they come in outside ways So like how big yeah, I do actually think that sometimes I do want to start with a question by the way, that's on Twitter earlier on

Are we starting now? Yeah, are we just going mate? Yeah, thanks 50k by the way. Well, try and hit 1 million now. You might have seen it, Ricky Gervais answered it. It was... I don't know if I have. If you were stripped butt naked now, nothing on you, and someone just clicked their fingers

and you went back 500 years, how would you prove you're from the future? Woah. I'll tell them what happened in a hundred years time. You'd then have to wait a hundred years and they'd be dead by then. So his answer was, I've got no fucking idea, because first of all I don't know how anything works, which is true. Like he said, oh, just put that in the fridge. They go, what's a fridge? You go, I don't fucking know. I don't know. It works. It's just cold and it gets... Yeah, how would you prove it?

And then also he said, they'll think you're a witch, so they'll just burn you. Yeah, exactly. No, here's what you do here we go just said tell them what happens in a hundred years think about it a hundred years the only way to do it is to predict events so 500 years would take us to when yeah so you'd have to say like who the next thing would be but I don't know who that would be also why I have yeah I'd need say like who the next king would be, but I don't know who that would be. But also why it happened. Yeah, you wouldn't have to have to research. Yeah, I'd need to know who the next monarch or whatever, but even then that could just be a lucky guess.

And also, also, isn't that actually, that's stupid because surely you'd know who the next king is based on who died. How long does circumcision go back? Okay, that's a strange question. I love circumcised myself. What? What? But, but, but, but, it is, there's no answer as to how would you prove it? I know how, I told you.

So, 500 years, no I'm going to tell you now a new version. 500 years ago in England they were speaking ye old English, not current English. So they don't even understand it? Exactly, so they'll burn you, they'll think you're a wimp. You could understand, it's like how Spaniards can speak Catalan, right, and they still understand. No, they's like how Spaniards can speak Catalan, right? And they still understand...

No, they can't! No, they can understand Catalan, sorry. I don't think most Spaniards can. Of course they can. Only bit... It's very minute differences. It's like an American and English, it's like sidewalk and the pace... Yeah, but I think you...

No way! I think you underestimate just how different Old English is to... No, but what I'm saying is I can guarantee you would sort of get a gist of what they're saying. I think you'd struggle still. I think we'd understand them a little bit. I don't think it's that different I think we'd understand them a little bit also they'd all be shitting in the street and you'd be going oh get a toilet And they'd go what's that? And you'd go I don't f***ing know. What year is this? Here's what you could do. You could say Go on for you lads. Also you brought naked no money. No nothing You're gonna think you're a freak.

I walk up to the tree, the apple tree and go, watch this. Apple falls to the floor, I'll be like, gravity. And they'll go, what the fuck is gravity? They wouldn't know at that point. You have to prove what it means to them. You can't just go gravity, because that word to them doesn't exist yet. And then go, E equals MC squared.

Oh, yeah. How have you been measuring the speed of light in the 1500s? My brain. And then I'd go, I'm going to create a plane. And electricity. Okay, explain how that works. Yeah, you don't know the basics. Well, obviously. Explain to me how electricity works, Leo. First you need copper. Then you need... Well, we still don't know what is. Don't know what copper is. Do you know what the Bronze Age was, mate? All right, but they won't understand what you're saying. They know what copper is. How do you know that's what the word they used?

Because it's been around for donkey's years. I think you're on the right track with science because observations with predictions of historical events is more difficult because you might break the chain of causation. What kind of science experiments could you conduct where you could be like, I understand everything at a very simple level. But I don't. I don't understand anything.

Here's one. This is why, if there was a zombie apocalypse, kill me because I cannot restart the human race. How do you prove it? So what about germ theory of disease, right? We all know that germs cause... Have you not noticed why it's been called the theory of disease? Come up with an actual theory, guys. You know germ theory of disease, the idea that germs cause... Have you not noticed why he's been talking about the theory of disease? The German theory of disease. He's come up with an actual theory, guys.

You know, germ theory of disease, the idea that germs cause illness. Yeah. You know, back in the day, they used to think it was bad air, all this kind of stuff. Bad air. Bad air. So you could turn around to them and say, listen, get to hospitals. You've got hospitals right now. You do a lot of surgeries. A lot of people die. I think that disease is caused by these tiny little microorganisms, like tiny little invisible to the naked eye little creatures that are causing illness. And there's a simple way to test this.

You in this hospital, get all your instruments and stuff, wash your hands before you do anything and boil all your instruments every time before you use it. This one, continue as usual. And I bet you this is a way of testing that I'm right, because the ones that boil and wash, the number of people that die from surgeries, the rate of death will be by insane amounts lower. I still might kill you for this part.

Okay, but you're dead by this point, because they've gone, well, you're not proven that you're from the future yet. It'd be about a year. But also- You'd be like, give it a year. That's actually, that's remarkably better than Theo's up here. The issue with that is, the issue with that is,

they'll just think, oh, he's a clever doctor who's thought of... Because the first person to come up with that was just clever. That wouldn't prove that you're actually from the future. It'd just say that you're very scientific. In a year's time, you're now respected, so hopefully you've built up something, you can get some clothes now and then you can buy a house. And you can start working out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You can start working out. I know that point, I know that point, but that still, even if you had the most amazing career in science from being more knowledgeable than anyone else back in that era, that still would never prove that you were ever from the future. Not absolutely, but it would keep people good around you. I'd invent Pellicillin.

It's reasonable to believe that. What? I'd invent Pellicillin. But just leaving... And I'd from the future. Not absolutely, but it would keep you a good round. I'd invent Pellicillin. It's reasonable to believe that. What? I'd invent Pellicillin. But just leaving... And I'd invent the car. No, but how would you invent the car? But they could just think, they're saying they could just think you're a great inventor.

Yeah, exactly. You wouldn't prove you're from the future. All you do is jump in the queue from whoever invented it. Okay, fine. I'd play the long game. I'd write everything down I know in a book. Yeah. And I'll say, and I'll say, I'll meet someone. It's a Sud write everything down. I know in a book. Yeah, and I'll say and I'll say

I'll meet someone Museum I say put this book here. Just just trust me on this and I find whatever and they go What's the museum and then I'll say everything is everything in this book You took everything in a bowl everything in this book. You must open this in the year 2025 I've got it. I've got it. I've got it. I've got it. Oh my god I've actually cracked it. You could say, all right, get me that boat, I'll show you where America is, this land that no one's ever heard of, and I'll prove to you the dimensions of it, everything, just off the top of my head, you'll know it, and you'll know, they'll have compasses surely, so you'd know which way to go, you just get a

good fucking, go west, and just like like we're gonna go to this You might gonna go over the sea for fucking however long and I guarantee you There's this land there. You still might die on the way of scurvy No, yes, they might just as well be like I was already done this one like lap once America hadn't been all the rest of the world's okay., if you don't believe America then let's go and find fucking But they might be like, oh, you know, he's a he's a seafarer. He's yeah come back That's and now he's going off from the future. I think you're hassling them hustling them. Sorry, you'd be like Oh, he's obviously done this on his own now. He's trying to prove that he's no because he was doing that on their own without telling anyone

Yes, true. Yeah. You would die. Yeah, well you just haven't found the right people to tell. Don't be so stupid. You can't just click go on your boat back then. You need a crew. You couldn't go on your own. That's what I'm saying. It's such a crazy idea for you to just presume that you could do that. Exactly. So then that would prove, look, I am from the future. This land exists in my time. No, you mean that you're presuming that you can just get a boat. Yeah, yeah. This is the way that I'll find America.

Because back then they were still trying to discover things and go on their boats looking for shit. Yeah, but you just got, right, we're going that direction for 15 days sea fare, and then we'll find a bit of land and that's America. But then you could be going anywhere in the world and finding land at that point. You've got to prove that's America. People are going to be there, there's going to be... Yeah, yeah, the Native Americans, proof people are gonna be there. There's gonna be yeah. Yeah, the night of America The night Indians will be there. Yeah, you could literally you're working out work, but also you

Could go to somewhere like bath And then say yeah dig here mate. I bet you find some ancient Roman ruins. Yeah, but we you wouldn't know what where to dig I know where to dig. No, where to dig. So you reckon Bath right now looks like Bath in the 1500s? So you go over there... Well Bath was the oldest city so you'd go there. There would be Bath. Yeah but all the houses that have been constructed now in the way that the structure of the city works is not how it would have looked back then. No I know, but I'd find a field. No way! That would never work!

It would never work. No. Oh, it'd be tough. Because you'd have to know the geographical location right now and how that compares to how it looked back then. I do. You know where it is, you know, the overall kind of landscape of it. You could say enough about America without being absolutely specific

to convince them, I know this place. And I'll say to them, I say, in a couple of hundred years, watch out for Napoleon. I don't like it. Dynamite, Napoleon Dynamite. Okay, right. And then I'll say, make sure on Baker Street, I'll be like, wait, sure, just so you know,

I wouldn't advise building all the houses out of wood on that street, I wouldn't do it. But that's fucking 160 years down the line. Yeah. I think though. Does it? Just FYI guys, if you're going to carry on constructing around here, probably don't build these out of wood just in case in the next 150 years they set alight.

It's a great fire. Yeah. I think discovery is the best thing. Early discovery is proving you know the world. Oh my god I'm so scared. That still takes a while for you to be proved right though. No, a couple of weeks. Long game innit? Yeah, but you might be dead at that point. You might not even make it to America on the boat. No, because, and then, no, we wouldn't die from

scurvy because I know how to combat that fruit. Oranges. Okay, right. And I'll be like, you know, you all keep dying on, you know, you all keep dying on these boats because of fucking all the shit in your mouth. I know how to stop that because in the future we eat We we eat fruits and acidity What I don't understand is though surely back in dear Like eating fruit and vegetables more common than it is now because they didn't have any preservatives and things that you just eat what grows Out of the ground. I don't know to be honest Yes, that's true, but they had left they've as Arthur said there's less ways of getting rid of the bacteria that would have been on those things

So then you're eating just bad food Apples an apple and then today Yeah, true, and that's what you could use for the Newton theory. Yeah all over again, I Actually don't think I don't think there's a way of just told you there's a way. Okay, right fine Because I also do think that people believe things a lot more easily back in the day.

So I do think some that, like, I think society now is very skeptical of a lot of things. And I think you go back and you do one of these things that we go, ah, that wouldn't convince them, because I think a lot of people go, fair enough, that's actually pretty sick. You whack out America, germ theory of disease, maybe electricity electricity I don't know if you could do it I'll figure away something like that my life goal to make electricity yeah I think you get a lot of people being like you know fair enough I believe you also surely like back and then and also they might then treat you like a god yeah you be a prophet they would yeah you could yeah we'd be like a time travel you

could be like I'm a prophet yeah They would be. Yeah, you could. We'd probably not even be like a time traveler. You could be like, I'm a prophet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where no one of this age could possibly know this other than me. Exactly. And the only reason I know is because of God. And they don't rule the world. Do you think we're physically more in better shape now? Would we be taller?

Yeah. So I might be seen as a giant. Wait, wait, wait. Physically in better shape than people in the street in the 1500s? Yeah. I think so, yeah. Yeah, but like Roman soldiers obviously like got good cardio, good strength and that. Bit further back for them though, innit?

Alright, a medieval soldier probably had good strength. Yeah, true, actually. I think you'd be surprised at how much stronger you probably are than the soldiers. I'd create... Oh my god. Maybe, maybe you've been... This is what you do. Lads.

You could say, have you ever heard of the Iron Man? I'll create the Iron Man. No, I'll create, mate, think about it. All these soldiers probably didn't, working out wasn't a thing. I just set up a gym. I'm on the future, guys. This is what we're to do. If you want your soldiers to get better, I'd become a medieval tactician.

Gyms were definitely a thing. They had gyms in ancient Greece. They did not have gyms. They would have trained in like- In London. You're telling me Henry VIII had gyms? They were a weathered, like, bastard had gyms in ancient Greece. They did not have gyms. They would have trained in like... Are you telling me Henry VIII had gyms? They were a weathered bastard had gyms. No way. I would create a medieval... I'd be a medieval

mastermind in battle. So you're... You're now a war general on top of the family. I'm a war general and PT. You've discovered gravity. And I'd be a nutritionist as well. So this amazing hypothetical scenario where you go back 500 years in time,

where you could basically become a prophet, prove to them you're in the future, your goal is to become a PT. Yes. I just find it interesting. I just find it interesting how the whole stipulation is you get stripped naked, you go back in time, and people go, oh my god, it's a girl.

Where's his hair? Where's his hair gone? he's a witch! it's just a little penis joke mate I would actually I'd guarantee you I'd get further in life than you guys because if you create what was the number one thing back there was war battle you had to win wars and battles and you know how to do that right? if I became the mastermind behind it how are you doing that off the rip though? That means you should know enough now about war for you to be teleported back I think like a 15 year old Alexander the Great

mocks you on the battlefield No way! Hey guys I was Arctic Baker at one point I was number one in the world on sabotage You've got to remember you'd go back in time and they'd still be smarter than you No that's just not true and you know it. You'd end up being a soldier.

Maybe I'm too smart for them. Yeah, I'd be, yeah. I mean, you've got the same sandals they wore back in then. Little Berks, you're going to have Berks back in there. Anyways, Arthur. Hello, Arthur. Hello, lads. How's it going?

Good, mate. How are you? Good. We have got some special things for you to do today. Oh, come on. Not sexual favors. Ah, boring. We are going to start with our Krabby Corner,

which is, has anything pissed you off in the last week that you want to put into our Krabby Corner? I've got something. I have something too. You can say yours or not. I did say yes actually, Thomas. He's the guest, you should let him speak. No, he was thinking, he was thinking.

No, he was thinking. He was a pensive. Yeah, he was quite a few people. So while he's thinking to get into it, I have one. Hear me with it. I think it's people not respecting other people's times and being late for basically no reason at all. I think that's true.

You know for a fact there wasn't no reason at all and I was very apologetic. What? You said sorry. I don't, by the way. Which you called. By the way. And then just sat down looking at me. And just what would happen?

I said, right, I guarantee you he comes in and he says, guys, I'm so sorry I'm late and then just sit straight down. Well, what else am I gonna do? Stand up forever? You should have cried. You beg for our forgiveness. That is really annoying.

No, my Krabby Corner wasn't even that. My Krabby Corner is line bikes in London have gone so far downhill recently. Yeah, they need to sort that shit out. I've grown a mind. The average pedal amount on line bikes at the moment must be like 1.6. Mate, I was in standstill traffic today.

I thought I'll leave the car, I'll get a line bike. Walk 10 minutes to a line bike, it's got one pedal. Yeah, we understand shit happens, right? But it happens every week for you. I've got a line bike, but ever since they brought in the parking spots as well, that's so boring. We're not like, okay, I've got a line bike, this is where I need to go.

You get to your destination, and then the nearest parking spot. The auto detect system for parking is just bugged as well Yeah, you know if you if you click pause on the line bike you and then it just and then it leaves It pauses 15 minutes and at the end of the 15 minutes. It just turns off and say don't do that again Yeah, but my line by one pedal at a point. No, it's like 10 p.m. I think wait a minute Yeah, no, it's a reduced rate because it's paused. I think 10 got one pedal at that point. No, it's like 10 p a minute. I think. Quite a minute, isn't it? Yeah, no, it's a reduced rate because it's paused. I think it's 10 p a minute. Yeah, anyway, my crappy corner is line bikes.

They were so, the thing is, there's nothing actually better than a summer ride on a line bike in London. Well, I thought you were talking about something else. And no one pays for them anymore as well. You know the beep, beep, then what? Yeah. If you roll it apparently for you

allegedly if you roll them backwards at the start like before you do it they just click on. That's so annoying. Yeah they've gone downhill mate. Yeah I would know that. And they're so popular at the minute they just need to sort their shit out. Yeah. Should we all compare our LimeBike stats? Maybe they've over expanded maybe that's the problem. Maybe they've got too big too quick. Should have invested in Lime. Yeah that would have been a good investment to be fair. They must make so much money. I pay for it monthly as well to get like,

I don't know what perks you get. I don't know. Yeah, the Lime Plus. Yeah, I have Lime Extra. It tends to be, it is a lot cheaper, especially if I cycle from here back to where Liv lives, it's like 40 minutes. So it does save me like five quid a go.

You buy the bundles, right? I buy the bundles as well. I buy the bundles. Sometimes. The minutes bundles that end up being so much yeah you also get 30 minutes of uh like booking yes you can you can book it for half hour but then you book it you get there it's got no pedals yeah yeah there's how many how many or to fair I rode one today with no um pedals or handles like no no no no bike, but I prefer those ones. With the throw down on it. I've done 2,600.1 kilometers.

I don't know. How do you even check? Just click on the top left of your account. This is a banger segment. Yeah. People are going to love this. 1,427. I've done 901 kilometers, 230,

but I've only been using it a year. I've only 901 kilometers, 230, but I've only been using it a year. How many rides? I've only done 500 kilometers. I've done 702 rides, 2600 kilometers. Interesting. So my distance per ride is way less than yours. Yeah, but I live further out. So I've got more cycle.

What's your Krabby Korma TV? Korma? Hmm. Krabby Korma. I had aa. Hmm. Krabby Korma. I had a massive man curry last night, so I'm real. Oh, you know what? Delays. So you know I was supposed to do my FPL forfeit on Friday.

Yep. And then- But that was delayed by you. For- Kind of, but it was my little sister, obviously lives in Jersey, and is going out to Portugal to hang out with one of her mates.

And she got the flight to London, but then the flight from London to Portugal got canceled out with one of her mates. And she got the flight to London, but then the flight from London to Portugal got canceled. Cause of the French strike. Two days because of the French strikes, which may be valid. I'm not saying the strikes should come to an end, but you know. Back in Baguette in front. The delay is so jarring.

So I basically had to look after her cause obviously she had two days in London with no one to look after her and stuff. Went to go watch London with no one to look after her and stuff. Went to go watch the F1 movie, that was pretty sweet though. It was actually really thoroughly enjoyable. I hear that if you're a bit of an overthinking F1 fan, people go like, it's not that like, it's not like possible that you can have that rags to riches and stuff. It's like people that watch the challenges that were massive tennis fans.

It's not proper. But I mean, Lewis Hammond have produced it, so you're not like, it's inaccurate in a great sense. Yeah, he did. Apparently he had a massive input with it, with all the scenes, and he'd be like, no, no, no. I was listening to Martin Brundle, he does a podcast on F1, and he was on about it last week saying,

there are literally scenes where Lewis would be like, no, no, no, you need to change, when they turn that corner, they're in the wrong gear. You could tell by the sound. That's fucking mad, ain't it? They weren't going to have Crofty or Brundle on the... And Lewis said we need proper commentators, otherwise it's not going to... But they are the voice of it. They needed to be on it. But I think any film... To be honest, Brad Pitt is one of my favourite actors. I feel like any film he's in, he's really

good. He's a good boy. There's actually a a funny scene. Me and my sister were like wetting ourselves out. Obviously Lewis Hamilton is the producer. There's a bit where he kind of like gets out of this car. It's like feels a bit slow motion-y. He sort of whips back his hair and looks sexually in the camera.

And you can just imagine him setting that up. You're like, all right guys, I'm going to get out of this car. I'm going to get out of this Lambo. You need to catch the glint in my eye. You need to get the glint in my eye. It's like glint in my eye. Have you seen that classic Tarantino one? He wrote the script for a film, wrote in the fact that this guy has a foot fetish.

Oh, with Salma Hayek? Yeah. Oh, God. To be the actor, then he sucks her toes. Yeah. It's like, surely that makes everyone in the room just go, this is easy. When you know he has a foot fetish,

it's really weird how many times people's feet get out in his films. Have you go this easy? When you know he has a foot fetish, it's really weird how many times people's feet get out in his films. Have you ever noticed? Yeah. The Hollywood one with Brad Pitt and all that in. Once upon a time. Once upon a time.

There's so many feet in it. I couldn't get through it. I didn't really enjoy that film. Oh, it's a good film. I like the ending. I'll tell you what about the delay thing, though. The, um, your sister wasn't the only one affected by the air strikes.

Oh. Air strike. Air strike. No. That's not going to correct a phrase there. I think that might be the wrong area. Wasn't anyone affected by the airstrikes? Oh, airstrikes? Airstrikes? No. Ha ha! And the not-so-correct turn of phrase there. I think that might be the wrong area. French

Air Line strikes. Right. Union strikes. They all didn't save it much, man. I can't believe it. They just carpet bombed Heathrow. Yeah.

No, they didn't. I was in Mallorca on the way back. Oh, how was that? My flight was delayed by three hours. We managed to get on the plane. We weren't only like- That's so bad though. I hate when they do that. If you're going to delay the flight, delay it. Why'd you get me on the plane? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, just tell us. But it was because they didn't know when they were going to take off. And we were one of like three flights to leave Majorca. Yeah, because to get a slot they go. We got lucky, right? But they did say on the flight, like, oh, by the way, lads, Oh, lads, fucking hell, so big free ass. Basically we're wording it like, be fucking grateful you're leaving Majorca, but we are going to miss the curfew in London city airports.

We've got to land at Southend. Oh. I didn't know London city had a curfew of 10.30. I didn't know that either. It's not land, so we got taken to Southend. And then we had to get- That's back to back trips in Majororca where he's been destroyed. He got home.

You got home alright. We were the dummy runner. Oh, Birmingham flight, yeah. Send them through. Anyway, my fucking taxi back from Southend to Mallorca was £133 at midnight. And they were like, don't worry, we're taking all the information, BA will reimburse you. Got an email the next day, they'll reimburse me £50. That's bad. how bad is that

yeah you don't look at your finances dumb out is it yeah no but it is a bit annoying though yeah it's very annoying you just made that back in the last minute imagine not even being on BA imagine being on easyjet they gave people 25 quid food voucher for their flight. That's what we had. Yeah, we had a seven euro voucher. Yeah. We got stuck in. We all got seven euros each. Yeah. That's all you look. That's all you deserve. To be honest. Have you guys seen the poop cruise thing on Netflix? Oh, is it good? I've seen it advertised though. I was around George's the other day and me, George, Arthur and Chris were standing up watching it and it's actually, it's so funny. Like they basically-

Is this the COVID one or the different one? Oh, what do you see that advertised? I don't want to watch that. One of the engines sort of like, you know, burst into flames and stuff, and then shut down the electricity. And they were just in the Gulf of Mexico or Gulf of America now if that's what they're calling it.

Yeah. Um, didn't Trump change the name? Yeah. Uh, yeah, they obviously refrigeration turned off. Like the toilets were overflowing, all this kind of stuff. And one of these classic, I mean, you look at the lawyer in it and he looks like a cartoon lawyer, like big chunky guy, big cigar.

And he was like, I was rubbing my hands. And then he looked at the ticket and the ticket terms and conditions were like, we do not guarantee safe voyage. We do not guarantee, wait, planetary conditions. We do not guarantee fulfilling and healthy food and all this kind of stuff. And they basically the ticket terms and conditions were like, we don't guarantee any of this. Yeah. So the fact that they were like up to their knees in like human piss and shit, obviously boiling hot, they were like, why do they just haven't seen it? Why would you not just piss

and shit over the side? People were pissing, but because of the way crews, the cruise line as well, they were pissing and it was, yeah, it's low. were pissing but because of the way cruise the cruise liners were they were pissing and it was yeah yeah it's his lower deck oh fuck oh you hadn't thought of that and they got bags to like shit in and stuff but it's because they were like they initially shat in it and then it started overflowing so like people were like stepping out their rooms and there was just like oh I don't I heard about this I don't understand why they didn't just get like another boat to come get him. So another boat did come and like was tugging them along, but because it's such a big heavy boat, that funny enough there was a cruise that pulled up alongside them, dropped off some like good, like a bit of food and water.

Yeah. And apparently, and all the people on decks just like taking photos and filming. They were just doing their thing. They were fuming, like they're sat there. But why wouldn't you do like two boats next to each other, just put a plank and just walk across? You're not coming in shit. Walk the plank.

Whoa, walk the plank. Yeah, they had two boats in the back. And you just got two boats that are smelling like shit, people coming in shit. Surely they're like helicopter or something. How far offshore were they? Could they not swim back? 10 yards. No. A helicopter could have come and gone. They could have got runs, I guess. Surely that are sure were they?

I just think they probably still wasn't worth the resources like there were two-day tug and they had enough food and water Americans yeah Imagine the moaning from the fucking Americans. Also, there's stuff they say about cruises. Like, obviously, you know, they've got freezers on board for the people that die on them, because it's inevitable that cruises, like people just die. But obviously, the freezers stopped working. So they weren't. No way. So they're just like dead bodies.

I don't actually know how many people died. Maybe it's more of a thing in the the long month, long cruises and stuff. But apparently everyone just shags everyone. Apparently it's mad, it's like one of the crew... You're going booking a cruise straight away. One of the crews sitting there, telling the story, she was like, I woke up and obviously I wasn't in my bed, I was in the chef's bed. And they were sitting so casually.

And apparently everyone just... Employees or just like employees or just like the workers. I mean, people it obviously because it was too hot to be in the rooms because it was like, you know, on the Gulf of Mexico. So it was really hot. Apparently people were literally just like shagging on decking in front of everyone. What? Covered in food? It takes two days for humans to like animalistic.

I like it. From what it sounds like everyone was shagging across the cruise anyway. If you work on a cruise and you have access to cams, apparently at any one time you can just see multiple people banging. It's mental. Jesus. You need to go work on that. What cruise was this?

I don't know. All cruises. Yeah, I have heard cruises are just shagfest. But is it shagfest? And deathfest. I didn't know that! It's a lot of old people. Is it intershagging? Is it like rooms from rooms or is it just like you up all this shagging?

I don't know. My mate's just been on one with his missus and his family. And it's perfectly, that's crazy! And he said, they are like little towns, he said you wouldn't... They did get on and off because it was like a Scandinavian one so they explored whatever but he said you would never need to leave the amount of different light He said we didn't even see the whole cruise while we're there. There's that much to do and then I never seen the pictures a Titanic next like a modern cruise. Oh, yeah, it's a fraction of the size Yeah, it's insane me. I think just base. Oh, it's yours bigger than the time

daughter Yeah, much you spent on his wedding? Er, no, I don't care. Oh yeah! 500 mils. Did he rent out the whole of Venice or just like a big chunk of it? I saw loads of protests in Venice about it. Well, he did rent out Venice.

Yeah, yeah. The whole of Venice. I think he locked up at least a segment of it, right? Because that's what I saw. No, he rented the biggest yacht in the world and parked it in Venice and said, everyone goes on the yacht to get away from like the prying eyes.

I don't know why Carly Jenner was there though. Is she mates with Jeff? Hot take. Venice is so overrated. Have you guys ever been? On what? Yeah, it's cool. It's stink.

I went in my second year. Are you saying overrated or underrated? Overrated. Okay, yeah, it is overrated. Not Venice yacht. It's a. I went in my second year. Are you still over-aided or under-aided? Over-aided. Oh, okay, yeah, it is over-aided. Not Venice Yacht, but it's a wedding. Yeah, Venice Yacht. It's definitely a two key word. It's definitely a novel experience to go, but I probably wouldn't go back.

Yeah, it's cool to go once. It's an interesting place to look at, but... Rooms are tiny. Yeah. I'd have to stand up in all bathrooms. You can't build elsewhere. I can run upstairs in my towel and go toilet. I mean, for a up. I'd have to go in the bathroom. You can't build elsewhere. Can you just walk in the bathroom? I'd have to run upstairs and my towel would go toilet. I mean, for a shower and toilet. Ah, there's Jess.

Also, hasn't he learned his lesson? Is that Oprah? Getting married. She was actually, his ex-wife is actually the mastermind behind Amazon. That's why she got half. Really? Was she the?

Yeah, she actually was. Yeah, she was the one who basically did it or he just took credit. Are the Kardashians? I mean, it looks great. Regardless, you can't smell it through the photos. So well the exactly As Orlando Bloom met Jeff, how would I know that? Casino Royale, but do you not think do you think no the left? No, that's not Daniel. That's Dolce And that's Gabbana No, the deed not Daniel Frey. That's Dolce. Domenico Dolce. And that's Gabana.

No, the bad guy. Le Chiffre. Le Chiffre. Is that him on the left? No, no, no. Fashion designer. That looks like him. You know, I think though, like, Jürgen, like, Jeff, right?

Jürgen is like schoolmates with her. I don't know. Jürgen still has mates from when he was young? Couple, maybe. Oh, Jürgen's got a WhatsApp group with his boys from home. I don't know. I love how you ask these questions, like we can answer them. What do you think?

I'm asking your opinion. Yes, it's interesting. Do you think Jeff Blazers has a WhatsApp group with his mates from home? Because did you see on Twitter, it was kind of viral, like Dua Lipa went on holiday with her mate and someone quotes who he did it like, what happens on these holidays? Like if all her mates are just normal, regular know which they are office jobs 95s whatever and Does she pay for everything? Yes, hey for every question. Yeah, multi-millionaire. Yeah, what's that Drake lyric like something like oh All my boys know that like gone. I pay for everything. Yeah, I think

If you would do a leap would you take all your mates on holiday? Yeah, if I had their level of money, I would do that. I like footballers do it, don't they? Like they all, they- Otherwise you just can't hang out with your mates. You wouldn't be sitting there like shipping. Exactly, it's nothing to you, is that you just pay for the whole thing.

And you'd make me back for the yacht. I don't think I've told this actually. Oh, here we go. I went to Ibiza recently. Yeah, I didn't know that. Oh yeah, this is actually the first- Oh wait, you met your idol? Yeah.

You met Billy Idol? Oh, by Wayne Lineker. He's absolutely, he's mental by the way. It's like, it's gen, when he comes out, right, it's genuinely like they've just got him out the freezer at the back, give him a slap and just like pushed him out and he's just like stumbling around everywhere going, you know what, yeah, what you're here for,

you're having a good time, yeah. The aura is crazy because the whole place looks at Yeah, yeah Oh my it's fucking mental So we were there for like my mates stag he got married in May. Do you remember when he had a stag before? Sure, when Tom had a go at all of us for going on Ethan's No, who's stag? Yes. Yeah, I agree. I don't think it's a stag, but I think it was said as a stag, so their wives

and girlfriends were okay with the lads already basically. Anyway, he comes out, comes over to our table and he's like, Oh, what are you here for lads? And he's like, Oh, he's stag whatever. And he goes over to my right joe. He's just like stumbling over. He's like, it's the worst decision you'll ever make getting married. And he's like, yeah, why has he been married? Has Wayne Lineker been married? I don't know. Or has he been a bachelor his entire life? Have you seen the photos of him before he's had the surgery?

Like what he looks like, what he looked like as like a 40 year old bloke. What surgery? He's got kids, yeah. Look at Wayne Lineker before surgery. It's nuts. Yeah, he used to be quite good looking. What surgery? He's been married once.

His face and that, he's had loads. Do you like Wayne Lineker before surgery? Have you ever seen the video of him being like 10 things he can't live without? It's probably- That's him, that top one on the top left. Yeah, he used to be really quite good looking. He looks like Gary.

Oh yeah, he's a brother, innit? Anyway, the video is, and he's like going like one, and it comes up on the screen with, get up Wayne Lineker. I have seen it. And it's like- Is it when they jump in the pool as well? Me when-

No, no, no, it's just him and it's like 10 things you can't live without. It's like vinegar, Oh, right. HB sauce, worldies, testosterone injections. It's the funniest thing ever. Oh, you did, didn't they? There you go, that one there, there, there, there, there,

there, there, there. There, there, there. And he says it's listed right there. Look at this. Oh, he did, didn't he? There you go, that one there, there, there, there, there. He says it's listed right there. Look at this. Oh, I've seen this. Oh, beef. Parties. Creepers. Creepers.

With the apostrophe on the eggs. H-P-S-O-L-S. Nan, oh, Nan, nice there. Yeah, good shot. Vinegar. So random. What the hell is that? Instagram. Testosteroneaff! So random. What happened? Instagram.

Testosterone. Nothing about family or when you're not. And there's a clip of him on there. He's got HP Source above, like. He's family. He's my fostering. Testosterone. He's on this, there's a clip of him on a podcast not long ago.

And they're like, so Wayne, you're like. Yeah, what do you do? You're a successful businessman. Like, what do you do day to day? He goes I'm basically nothing. I do nothing all day They're like, oh really? He's like I do nothing if I don't he's like I don't have to go to ocean I just do it cuz I like it. He's like I do nothing. He's like people are thinking I've got like this schedule He's like I do nothing. Yeah He's outgrown

His responsibilities you can just see you could do yeah I do nothing. Yeah, he's outgrown his responsibilities. You can just see you could do it. Yeah. It is a funny sight seeing him. Is he married to the sesh? I think he's absolutely mate. But anyway, next to our bed was Brennan Johnson. Oh, Brennan Johnson. Well, he will be now. With three of his boys. I spent quite a bit of time there actually. He's a really, really, really nice mate. Who went up to who? Er, it was a bit of both. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh uh, it was a bit of both.

and he's going up to have a piss, kind of looked over and I just like, I winked and put my thumb up and he just come over and shook my hand. And then he hits. And we just talk and then his mates come over. But the reason I bring that up is because his mates are in that situation he was on about, like they just have normal jobs, right? And I was saying like, I mean, I don't think he cared me saying, but I was saying like, what goes, like, does that happen? Do you like chip in?

He's like, oh no, like obviously, Brendan just paid for everything. But he says to us, I want to go on holiday. I'll just sort everything kind of like that, I think. Which sounds- Well you went there, yeah, 100%. When we went to Ibiza, again, it was like me, George, Arthur and Chris.

We were a lot smaller. This was like two years ago. And Chris was like, oh, should we go to Ocean Beach? Chris was smaller then, Jesus. No, Chris was obviously still... No, I still over-react. It was me, George and Arthur. It's a high joke.

No, I got that, but just to clarify. All right, but George, Chris was massive at that point. He really told it that far. Said nobody ever. Anyway, a lot of the things, like the beds are quite expensive, and he was like, don't worry boys, I got it. And we were just like, oh, that's good. Yeah, you would.

In fairness. But obviously the greater example, I know you and Chris go way, way back, but like with the Brennan Johnson example, their friends that have been through as in time, started to play football. They grew up together. Exactly. So like that's why I don't want to bring it up to tell his business, but I just thought it was a lovely thing.

Yeah, yeah, he's a nice guy. You could tell they were actually proper boys and he looks after them. And I just think that's fucking sick. And it would be nothing to him, like a grand bed in Ocean Beach. So we got a bed, like 10 of us got a bed, like a bed in VIP. It was, so it was 200 euros each, but you get a six litre bottle of vodka with that. Six litres now? Fucking hell. With mixers

and everything so that was 200 euros each for the ten of us we were there like six seven hours good value and that was the whole day paid for well i thought that's not too bad did the litre six litre last whole day yeah we didn't even get through it there's still a bit left it's so much liquid it's like the side nearly the size of my body do you get this and i'm guessing you just get like the mixers alongside it. They're constantly bringing them around, like more mixers. That's actually a good deal. You don't always spend your day there

and you get unlimited drinks basically. And you've got a bed, you're in the VIP section. I mean, the VIP is not really VIP. The food's quite nice as well, isn't it? There's a toilet. Yeah, there's a toilet right by. No, as in like, was there like, Oh, he's talking about fans.

Oh, no, not really. Oh my by. No, it's in like, was there like... Oh, he's talking about fans. Oh, no, not really. There was... Oh my God! I knew there was a story. Oh, yeah, I mentioned... So, oh my God, this is mental. So we were just like, we were just chilling by the bed and this guy comes like banding over

and I'm like, oh my God, here we go. And he was like... I was like, no, you're all right, what's up? And he's like, look at that. And he got tattooed on himself. I thought he was your friend. No, he got tattooed on himself. Yeah, you and then NBY not bad yourself.

No way. Both of his entrance by chance was there. I was like, mate, what the fuck. Maybe not by chance actually. He may have been stalking you. No, I think- Had you been speaking about your upcoming Ibiza trip on these dates or anything?

I didn't say that. Not really, no. No, not really. You hadn't mentioned it. Not really. But he was like, he got it done last year. He may have been stalking you. Had you been speaking about your upcoming Ibiza trip on these dates or anything? I didn't say that. Not really. No, not really. You hadn't mentioned it. Not really. But he was like, he got it done last year. But did he get it done because of you?

Obviously, yeah. Oh yeah, there's things on there. Yeah, I know. I didn't know whether he'd taken the phrase from somewhere else or not. No, no, no. Yeah, is that an original? That's wild. Yeah.

That's an original PG movement. Well, it's not. It's from a mate I used to work with. Yeah, but you pioneered it. You're a pioneer, Sainz. Well, yeah, I mean, but yeah, how mad is that? I was actually like a bit creepy, but also that's fucking kind of cool. That is beast mode.

That is cool. Very cool. How far across Ocean Beach did he run? He was in VIP as well, literally like two beds. But it was the way he, occurring the full- I was spotting him like bounding over, and one of my mates was a bit like, I think we've got one here. He's got one.

But no, he was a good lad. But yeah, good time out, Oshin. Oshin really good. Did you go IB for rocks? No, I'm not fucking 15. We went to Ushuaia where MK was on and Calvin Harris. I thought it was hard to go over it, you know. Ushuaia, it's very densely packed.

Mate, oh fuck me. You couldn't. Is that not the point? No, really. They over sell it by. And you're very far, like most, the audience goes so far back. I got you, got you.

Basically the best. You're sat miles away, you can't see much. The best view would be where they've plonked a pool. Oh really? The pool's just in the middle. It's like, why have you put a pool there? Like you can't go in the pool. No, you can't go in the pool.'t go in the pool. And then Alan Shearer was in VIP with all his mates. I was just waving, get us in! It's me, Tom! They probably thought you were just doing a celebration back to them.

No, I didn't realise he was there till after. I think it was on Twitter that he was there. But yeah, the problem with that is, so it started at five and then finished at 11 So you're like that she get there. There's no shade mate like I'm not lying in the so you are just stood there Yeah, sweaty. So because it goes for the evening period Yeah, cuz you're in like a shirt and shorts or whatever But like and you can't take your shirt off or no, maybe you can oh, you know, that was it We tried to sit down. They said you can't take your shirt off or no, or maybe you can oh, yeah, that was it We tried to sit down. They said you can't sit down We're like, it's really then we're like obviously sweating go and get a drink

60 euros for two doubles. Ah Six no, sorry 58 euros for two double vodka lemonade. I paid And we're like, I think we'll be sipping this one the tickets that actually shows just how good value ocean beach Yeah, and you really it's a ticket itself 130... That actually shows just how good value Ocean Beach genuinely is. The ticket itself was 130 euros because it was MK and Calvin Harris. And in fairness, we got split up from our group because a few lads left and we went to walk them out and then we literally couldn't get back to them. It's literally like sardines, you're like that.

It's not enjoyable. Not really. Not when you've got some fucking idiot German in front of us, off his head, bouncing around, jumping up and down. It's like so I don't think there's the space to do this I don't really know a Karen on him way No, I didn't say anything, but we were just kind of trying to enjoy the music and he's just bouncing around like a frog It's like I'm not sure if VIP. I don't know Must I don't even look no idea but a good time then we left Fifteen minutes before the end to miss the rush which worked

out well because the other lads who didn't waited like an hour and a half for a taxi just to get back so we got a taxi straight away then at 11 when they left they couldn't get one for an hour and a half that stood there in the fucking so yeah but it's fun fun time fun times man you got a beef or no? no no plans to I do want to go back actually we We might be going back. Funny you say that. Yeah, I haven't. Why is that funny?

You say you haven't been there? Oh no, I've never been. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I was about to say and then you said funny you say that. Well, yeah, because hopefully you go there for your stag do. Oh, okay, right.

Yeah, I don't mind that at all. When's that video coming out below? That stag do vid. Ah! Next year. Is it? Yeah. Wait, end of July?

End of July, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right, should we talk about stuff that you find close to the heart? Even in the Krabby Corner. Pardon? We did see the Krabby Corner, that was the whole thing. He said delays. Delays.

And then we had a whole chat about Majorca. What's your Krabby Corner? Line bike pedals and line bikes. What was mine? Don't know actually. Who cares? Yeah. I didn't do it, oh well. You are a philosophical man aren't you?

I enjoy philosophy, yeah. So do you, come on. I do, I do, but this is this guy, thank you. I'm not joining you there. Not politics so much. This is more to gauge into your mind a little bit. Pry into your mind of how you rate philosophers. So we're going to do a philosopher tier list.

Wait, are you actually holding a philosopher tier list? Yeah, I've got one up, yeah. Oh my god. Do you know these by their face? No, that's some of them. Oh my god. I mean... Is that the God of Amor attack?

Who's drawn the third picture? That's one of them guys. Is that King Henry VIII? Oh, like solid takes. Do you ever wonder how like... The penultimate is the guy. Oh, they know what they look like. Well, these buffers made at the time.

Yeah, they're accurate to the period, aren't they? They didn't guess. Well, it's like imagine in like 150 years time when people look at the Ronaldo statue. That's what it looks like. Oh my god, have you ever seen the follow-up video to that, you know, like is it bleacher report or someone gave him a chance to do it again? It's generally it might make you cry He was so disappointed with the whole thing about how like he really made it and it just it didn't come out Right. I can't remember exactly why and he was got it his family like got so much hate for it

He was like choking up It's really emotional and like the people that are making this documentary go like, we want to give you like another chance. Like we know you're super talented and he makes one. It looks exactly like Ronaldo and he's so proud. He's like breaking down. Honestly, like it's not like a 10, 20 minute video. If you get the chance to watch it, it makes you feel so I've never laughed at one of the, I didn't laugh at that joke. It makes me think of that video every time someone memes it. The problem is the actual statue that he's built off the back of having to do it again

will never be the one that's remembered. No. Did you see the one that did with David Beckham as a joke? Yeah, was it? James Corden. Oh, the James Corden. Very funny. Anyway.

That can't go out. That can't go out. That's philosophised. Let's pick off. I've got my family coming over. Well, this should be an interesting one because you actually named a hamster after. Plato.

Yeah, good person. Avoiding at a party, just a bit weird, solid takes, bro, made me think too hard, and the goat. Right. All valid tears for... But how would you know what Plato's like at a party? I don't think you would, mate. I think all of these aren't gonna be very party-esque, though. No. But how would you know what Plato's like at a party? I don't think you would mate.

I think all of these aren't going to be very party-esque are they? No. So maybe we'll go like this is who they are, here's like a little bit of what they believed or something and then we'll put them in. So who are we going with first? Plato. Plato the guy. I think...

He's got to be up there Annie, he's one I know so... What's his main thoughts? I think therefore I am? No that's coming up though, he's one I know. What's his main thoughts? I think therefore I am. No, that's coming up though, that's Descartes. Yeah, French a lot further on. Yeah, see I know their names, I don't know what they did. What does Plato do then? Plato was a scholar athlete really, wasn't he?

He was one of the first people who thought about a utopia and how to get there. What's a utopia? Like a perfect society. Yeah. You looked at the... You remember when you see the picture of like the flying cars and the grass and the lake and like futuristic society and people go oh this would this would be what it was like if Harry Kane squared it to or like you know, if Sterling squared it to Kane. That's what a utopia kind of is. Like, perfect world. I don't want to disregard a lot of these old philosophers.

Here we go! Here we go! Theo Katzmann knows more than these philosophers! But surely we're all smarter than they were back then. This bloke's thought of like a positive future. No! We've barely started, so in thinking about the utopia, Plato's big thing was like eudaimonia, like this idea of human flourishing and like living a good life and all this.

But surely everyone wants that. Ross Edgley is like a huge, what's the word, disciple of Plato really. Yeah, he's always like striving for eudaimonia. A lot of the stuff that he does is like quite athletically challenging, but also scholar-based as well. Everyone wants that though, I don't get it. Not everyone thinks like that though. Here, let's have a couple of his ideas. One of his ideas was replacing, obviously at the time they had a lot of famous people,

a lot of people looked up to, like boxers, celebrities, all this kind of stuff. Wait, Plato? Yeah. Yeah, he was like a fighter. In what year? No, but he was going, society looks at all these people and he said that we should replace these ideas of like wealthy celebrities, famous people with these things called guardians, who are people to look up to in society because he kind of thought that people, it had a really

big impact on society, who the role models of the time were. And he thought it'd be really important to have these like guardians in place who were wise and had these like really good virtues. And that's a kind of like good thing for us to think like we're people that people tune in every week to listen to us speak about things. Maybe it's important for us to take on board that, you know, we should reflect things about. What's the guardian? What does he mean by that physically? Yeah, so there are people who are particularly wise and who had these virtues of like courage, wisdom, self-control, patience, you know, things that people... So like modern day politicians?

No. No, no, no, like, modern politicians. He also really hated modern day politicians. He thought that politicians should be philosophers and the philosophers should be politicians. And he hated this idea that people were good with rhetoric and popular and all this kind of stuff with people with the people that made decisions and he thought basically people shouldn't be allowed to vote until they've Become kind of philosophers themselves that really thought about yeah devil's advocate Oh, is he not suggesting that you know what you're gonna love Socrates and become in Socrates You're the Socrates of the group. I think really yeah Oh, so anyway, go on what you said is he not just basically saying everyone should look up to people like me no he's saying the

opposite but he's that he is he sock a play I was a wise person so yeah basically saying everyone should look up to people like me as in me play later yeah yeah that's what he's saying to some extent I mean he thought the power like him yeah yeah but no but I'm guys everyone at that point listen to me and that's what he was all fairly modest that people like him. Yeah, yeah, but that's no, but I'm guys everyone at that point isn't to me. And that point is all fairly modest. That sounds like me.

How they think as well, though. Yeah, that's basically self entitled. But they have this recognition that thinking about things does make you better and wiser. He's literally saying everyone should look up to people like that. I know he is one. He is right. Who the fuck's he to tell me what to look up to?

You've never thought about that have you? No, but I would agree. I would agree that philosophers should be the people that go like, God, like the most important thing to him was like, how do we live a good, he thinks we're better than everyone else. He's had not the age old thing of like, I don't know, today, like instead of looking up to the Kardashians, we should be looking up to professors or, but unfortunately, people of virtuous nature, yeah.

Yeah, people who are virtuous, that's true. Or like, You look at influencers and go, who are the good influencers? Who are the people that speak about important topics, like make you feel happy, good about yourself? They're the ones that question Plato. Make you a good man? But the thing with that is...

I think you guys are good people. I think you guys are not far off the Guardians. No. You think so? Henry, do I judge you? Come on. Yeah, I'm definitely... Am I a Plato's Guardian?

You're... no. No, you are in a sense, but I think you're more of a Socrates kind of guy. Oh yeah I definitely don't think people should be looking up to me. My point is... Do you not think the wisdom in us even discussing us now coming to today's day and age just stands testament to that how important these kind of ideas are? No 100% I'm not downplaying these guys I'm downplaying us. Got you. I agree. People shouldn't really look up to... If you're looking at really black and white, people shouldn't look up to footballers or celebrities or... But they do because that's

a lot of people's escape. People don't want to spend their week working, grafting, and their escape is to go and watch football, to go and watch boxing, to go and watch the club, to go and watch the reality show. People don't want to hear about the fucking, like you just said, people like that almost talking down to you and telling you what you should think, even though he's probably got a point and he might be right, a lot of people don't want that in their life. They just want to work a week and then escape. Yeah. Don't get me wrong. He also had this massive thing of how important entertainment, plays and that kind of stuff was as an escape from reality and the harshness and also facing it as well.

So he definitely thought that the arts and stuff had definitely had their place and they were really important, but just to kind of go like, to not really prioritize fame and success as much as people who are like... Footballers are an interesting one though, like sports stars. I think you should look up to them in their sporting sense, but a lot of people look up to them off the pitch as well, which you probably shouldn't really do.

It's not really fair on them either. Yeah, but if you look up to the sports stars in their sporting sense, yeah, they've worked bloody hard to get where they are and grafted. Yeah. But then you could argue that, again, I'm not saying this is my opinion or debate. You could argue that they haven't worked as hard as a doctor, but no one really looks

up to them the same way they do these. But it's hard in different senses. One's hard in a theoretical basis to become a doctor and the other one's physically and mentally challenged to become a sports doctor. A doctor is physically demanding. No, I know, but they're both hard in two different senses. Uh, yeah. Is it harder to become a doctor or is it harder to become a professional footballer?

That's a good, probably a footballer. It's a 50-50 there. See what I mean? Probably a footballer only because of the sheer amount of people who try to become footballers. I think the actual skill of becoming a footballer is not harder than being a doctor. That's not just, okay. I know, but when you make it black or white, like.

If you might, but to become a professional footballer, you're challenging a billion other people in the world. Do you know what I mean? To become the 0.001%. But yeah. Where are we sticking him? Yeah, we don't want to spend too much. He's either solid takes bro or makes me think too hard. I think solid takes bro. Yeah, solid takes bro is pretty good. Who's this bloke? Who's this fucking freak? So this is Aristotle.

Why'd you say it like that? No, he said who's this fucking freak? He does look like a freak. I want to get freaky. Aristotle was a pioneer in a good way of thinking but got a lot of stuff wrong. Oh, so he's wrong. What did he say was wrong? He was one of the first, so...

Is he the one that... He's misquoted as excellence is a habit of what you do every day. You are a byproduct of a habit of what you do every day, right? All these quotes are just nonsense though, because they've all been interpreted... Yeah, but I think they didn't say that in English. I think that one always gets misattributed to Aristotle when it's not actually him, right? Really?

I don't know what you're saying. Excellence is carry on. Should we have a quick Google on the? What do you say? So quickly. Well, let's do this quote first. Should I just ask GBT? And then type in excellence and then it'll

come up with the quote, I reckon. Excellence is a habit. What were Aristotle's main ideas? No, no, we know his main ideas. We're with the quote I reckon. Excellence is a habit. What were Aristotle's main ideas? No, no, we know his main ideas. We're doing the point. Then is not an act but a habit. Yeah, but I think that always gets misattributed to him. Someone else actually said it, but anyway.

To be fair, a lot of these ideas, like when you hear about philosophers, they were like one of the first. Quite often people who spend a lot of time or their like works deeply reflect an idea. They might not have been the first bit like it's attributed to them. Very similar in chess, you often get like, oh someone's opening it, it's named after them.

They weren't the first person to do it. They just were like really influential in the theory. Okay, first of all, first of all this guy's a fraud. Aristotle. Listen to this nonsense, right? to end the theory. Okay, first of all, first of all this guy's a fraud. Aristotle. Listen to this nonsense, right? I know, he started jiggling him. I'm sorry, this is ridiculous. So he's considered the father of formal logic. Who? Logical thinking, right? Aristotle.

Yeah. Here's what he said. So logistic logic, yeah. He said, all humans are mortal. Oh, I know, I already know where you're going with this and I already know it's wrong. Socrates is a human, therefore Socrates is mortal. No, so you're completely missing the point. His point wasn't to go... It's basic common sense. No.

Come on, man. He's making you think too hard. No, he's not. The point... He said humans are mortal. How do you figure that out? His point wasn't the premises, but you agree with the two premises and therefore the conclusion. So his essential way is he made arguing a system.

So he says, if you agree with these two premises that all humans are mortal, you agree with that and someone says yes, and you go, Socrates is a human, yes. The conclusion that Socrates is therefore mortal you have to accept so he took this sort of idea right? Argument being about intuition and common discussion He gave this like formal syllogistic logic of here are these premises if you accept these premises You have to accept the conclusion and that put that deductive reasoning was quite groundbreaking accept the conclusion and that put that deductive reasoning was quite groundbreaking. He's blowing his mind here. You act like I don't know any of this stuff. I know all about this stuff.

So it's a way to say to someone like, oh, if you disagree with this conclusion, if I can make you accept these premises that lead to the conclusion. So if you go, I disagree with. But two things that are correct doesn't necessarily make one thing that is correct. No, but the form of a syllogism is that the premises, if they are, if they are true, necessarily lead to the conclusion. So he just, he brought about this idea of, of argument and logic. This place is a lot of fucking waffles. And the other one was the inductive reasoning, the observation.

So the kind of thing where you go, okay, you try and put that in a syllogism of let's say the sun, right? You go every single day I've ever observed the sun has risen in the morning. You can't say the sun has risen every time before, therefore the sun will rise tomorrow because it might not. The conclusion doesn't necessarily follow. But there's the inductive reasoning of going like, I've observed a lot, we can draw reasonable conclusions. And that's kind of like the foundation of science, like having observations and go, you know, that's why Science it's humbly cause things theories like yeah, you know, you have the germ theory of disease still

Yeah, gravity's a theory evolutions a theory. We're a certain that germs cause disease and the gravity Yeah a thing and the evolution is true. It's pretty much anything else. We have this debate before about true as pretty much anything else. We had this debate before about normal theories compared to scientific theories. They're not the same theories. They are very different. What's your thoughts on obviously... Based on your initial reaction to what you've read of him, where would you put him? We could find something that could prove it wrong.

Well, I think solid takes must be higher than makes you think too hard. I think it's the wrong way around. I don't think he makes you think... Oh, I see it. Yeah, because it almost sounds bad. Oh, I see, yeah, no, that actually might be right, you know. He rejected Plato's theory of forms as existence independently. Aristotle's substance is a combination of matter and form.

He famously said that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects. And it was our fair enough good observation. Obviously, we weren't really able to test that in a vacuum. But obviously, we know that's not true. objects fall faster than lighter objects. And it was our fair enough good observation. Obviously we didn't really, we weren't really able to test that in a vacuum. But obviously we know that's not true. Nice. But with gravity, it's true. Not with gravity. It's true.

No, with gravity, heavy objects and light objects fall at the same speed. So you get a bowling ball and a feather in a vacuum, drop them. They'll hit the floor at the same time. What I'm saying, but vacuum doesn't have gravity. That's what he said. The vacuum does have gravity. Oh, that's what you just, you just agreed with me floor at the same time. No, what I was saying, but vacuum doesn't have gravity. That's what he said. The vacuum does have gravity. Oh, that's what you just, you just agreed with me there.

You were wrong. I'm lost here. You were wrong. Yeah, you got it wrong there. Okay, all right. Didn't say sorry. Why does a vacuum, but space doesn't have gravity, does it? Space does have gravity.

Minutement of gravity. What if there's no gravity? What happens if there's no gravity? So actually, if you get two tennis balls, place them about a metre apart in space with no other gravity, in about half an hour an hour, they'll eventually come together from their own gravity. If I go to the top of a building,

drop off a feather on a bowling ball, the bowling ball's going to hit the floor first. Yeah, because there's air resistance. So it does fall faster. Yeah, but not due to a not due to like gravity. In the real in a real world scenario, it falls faster. In our in our world, you know, you talk about a bowling ball off the top of the building. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, but he's talking about in a vacuum.

But how often are we in a vacuum? No, you're right. Do you know, I mean, yeah, no Yeah no actually yeah. That's why no one can trust me for a while. If you go around telling everyone yeah the bowling ball falls at the same weight the feather yeah it's all well and good doing it in a vacuum but mate you're in a fucking earth. In an earth. You're in an earth. You're not in a vacuum you're in an earth. Yeah true. So what's all wassawasawed why don't you just talk about in the practical days we're in. He also had a cool thing about the golden mean where like, there's a perfection in between two extremes. So like maybe humour, someone can be a bit too silly

and laughs when it's inappropriate, make silly jokes. Everyone thinks they're a bit of a divvy or somebody who doesn't laugh at anything at all and is a bore. There's like a golden mean that everyone can aspire to aim to hit in everything. Break it back to something we understand. You know, being too disciplined and never having a drink or just not having a problem for it. Like with drinking. In everything. Break it back to something that we understand. Mm, drinking.

You know, being too disciplined and never having a drink or just not having a problem with it. Somewhere in the middle. You're not in the middle, you're like back and forth. I didn't say I followed it, I just said. Like for example, if a squirrel falls out of a tall building, if I take a squirrel off, it will survive. Do you know why?

Terminal velocity, brother. Brother? What? Yeah. So the squirrel is so light. What did you just say? It's not because it can't... No, because it spreads itself out.

No, don't they fly? They can kind of... It's a flying squirrel. They can glide. A flying squirrel is a different animal. Can't they glide? A normal red squirrel, it won't die because of terminal velocity. It can't get...

It literally can't go as fast as like a bowling ball. So when it lands, it's just like it fell off a car. No, look at him, look. That's a flying squirrel. It's different. Will, can you Google... Can you Google just like it's fell off a car no look at him look that's a flying squirrel it's different well can you google can you google if Theo throws a squirrel off a building whether or not it'll die yeah i mean that's pretty cool if a squirrel jumps off a 30 story building till it survive you said you'd throw it mate a squirrel on a flying squirrel we should call we should call peter if it actually does die by the way, because you said you'd kill a squirrel.

That's a surprisingly interesting physics and biology question. There you go. That's not the answer. Girls can survive it and they would survive it. There you go. Terminal velocity because I'm correct. Should we just believe him?

Let me read that. That does not say that. Terminal velocity, it can't go that fast. Why don't you just believe me instead of like fact-checking everything? Do you just meditate in a weird way? In most cases, yes. A healthy squirrel that falls straight

over a 30 story building will almost always survive. Told you. I never doubted you. Hey, look at you, like trying to poke in every hole. I wasn't. Because it doesn't sound believable. I was trying to find out whether or not you've killed a squirrel. No, I just have pockets of knowledge that you little pea brains don't understand. I've got an A in psychology.

Where are we putting him? Confucius, I thought we'd have to throw him in because otherwise we've all just got... Did you create the tier list? I just gave him some lists of philosophers. Who's Confucius? East philosophy, ancient China. Talk to me. The golden rule, the sort of...

Oh, the golden rule thing is what he did. Not the golden mean. This is the golden rule of do unto others what you would want done unto yourself and don't do unto others what you wouldn't want done unto yourself. It's very Jesus-esque, isn't it? Right, Jesus-esque. So I treat people the way you want to be treated.'t do unto others what you wouldn't. It's very Jesus-esque, isn't it? Right, Jesus-esque. So treat people the way you want to be treated. Exactly.

Yeah, that kind of thing. Can I just... I don't necessarily agree with that. Really? No, because I think... I want to abuse people. No, no, no. Like a slap.

I don't think the way I expect people to treat me or would like to be treated is the same way you treat like a small child or Yeah It's lazy in it it's not lazy but it's not it's Maybe maybe I'm happy being treated a different way to Theo just because I'm okay with being treated like that doesn't mean oh well I don't even know the way in the fundamental of it yeah the way I want to be treated means everyone has to be treated that way you would treat a baby in a nice way in the fundamental thing you wouldn't it fucks me up

shut up no yeah shut your mouth in certain situations whether or not I would definitely treat you two differently to someone I've just met. Yeah. That's true. I think that's just natural in the way. But isn't like you wouldn't necessarily do something to any of those people that you wouldn't want done? No, not... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like you wouldn't hit someone or... No, but even that, I wouldn't mind someone coming in and like, I don't know, like fucking poke him in, having like a laugh with me or... Tickle tickle. Or just like, but I wouldn't do that to a stranger stranger or I wouldn't want a stranger to do that to me. Maybe it doesn't have to be necessarily directional, it can be like almost proportional, so going like treat people with the respect I would want to be treated or with the level of humour appropriate to them.

Yeah, but even that, like I wouldn't expect someone I don't know to take the piece out of me and say, right, my friends would, or my family, or... Not that I wouldn't want, I don't know, I don't really know what I want. You don't fuck with him, really. You just like... No, I understand the premise of it. I just don't necessarily agree with that. They copy and paste from Jesus. They did not know each other. No, but it's the same idea.

Good ideas do last a long while though. Who was around first? There's inevitably going to be a lot of evolution. I think he was. Confucius. 500 BC. No. Gavin, what are you going to say here?

Also, like the Greek philosophers would have followed. Yeah, 500 BC. So he was about 500 years? Nah. Gavin what are you going to say here? Also like the Greek philosophers would have followed like- Yeah 500 BC so he was about 500 years before Jesus. They would have followed- I don't want to be that guy. No and a lot of the Greek philosophers would have followed Greek gods like that would have been- Yeah I know but- No he's trying to say that Jesus copied-

He's told his flow. Mate, mate nearly all religions like that are very similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he's not religious, he just lost it. But there's almost like an inherent, like obvious, that like, of course we think about it. Yeah, yeah. But this is my point from the start.

Yeah, but that's why these ideas last really, that's why we go, oh, that's such a simple idea because it has lasted all the time. It's like saying- People at the time weren't thinking these, this is why they're pioneered. It's like now going, yeah, just fucking put it in the microwave,

but the first person to invent the microwave was the genius. But you could easily go, well, yeah, fucking just create something that eats things up like cheese. How do you know fucking Janet down the pub in the 1500s wasn't thinking like this? Because her ideas aren't spoken about today. Yeah, we don't know. We don't know Janet from the 50s. It's almost like a shame in philosophy that to now be a pioneer, it's almost impossible. Like it's very rare.

Yeah. Whereas obviously a lot of these people come up with things that you go like... Oh, it's almost... Yeah. The current philosophers are almost just like regurgitators of what is... That's the stupidest thing ever. That's like saying everything's been invented. No, it hasn't.

I think it's like new then. I'm not saying I can. Do it mate. All right, where are we putting, oh wait, no. Okay, so let's go for something. Okay, golden triangle. One other thing about him. He kind of thought the perfect, you know,

he had this idea of like a perfect person, said these are the kind of virtues, like wisdom, all this piece of kind of stuff. And he said that everyone can get a lot closer to them. You need to like cultivate virtues in the same way you like cultivate a garden is a quite nice idea not bad you're good going like everyone can get towards this if you just put in the work and yeah it implies people have dynamic personalities yeah it's a method you get somewhere a lot of

it is a good person a lot of them are just clever metaphors aren't they really yeah yeah that's quite nice Takes pro as well, and he represents the east well, let's put the only thing I was very convinced is a Nonsense oh this one is this day car. Oh don't get me started I think therefore I am fuck off. Yeah, je pense donc je suis Shut fuck up. Oh, that was right though. it? That's how we know we're conscious. Yeah, this would be the new argument again for AI. So we had this one on waffling

and then you spoke about it with Alex O'Connor and you don't like it. I feel like you'd avoid him at a party. I wouldn't speak to Descartes at a party, no way. I don't think I speak to any of these freaks. I just think there's just two, like why can't you just accept? Accept what?

Anything. Oh, this is what we spoke about at the table thing all over again. Yeah, you speak the whole thing. Too much thinking sometimes, I think, is what the world does. Oh, so maybe you're not Socrates time, maybe you don't like thinking.

Yeah, I think your issue is you take it the other way too much, and you don't think at all. I do think, though, that there is definitely like a trend of like trying to like overthink everything. I do agree with that. Like everything. But you, like for example, we, I do this metaphor all the time,

but like you can sit there and tell me the table's not there, but it is. Yeah. Yeah. For all intents and purposes, but this- Oh, see. But as in like, you're just going like practically, there's no use to that.

But for some people it's just interesting to think about, to think like... No, I agree with that. And also you probably agree with him slightly more than you think because he thought that all the other stuff, the things like there's a table in front of me, he didn't just think that the only thing you can know is that you exist. Like that's the idea of the j'apprend dans la suède, I think therefore I am. He also thought that God existed and that because God was perfect, he wouldn't be deceptive. And so he said, because God exists and isn't deceptive, I can reasonably trust my judgment that there is a table there because God wouldn't deceive me and make

a brain in the back of that stuff. And then he also combined science with religion. He did, yeah. God was how he grounded reality. And I think his idea for God was the ontological argument. I don't know if you've heard of it before, but he essentially said, think of a perfect being, right? Think of a perfect being.

For that perfect being to be perfect, it would need to exist because let's say you've got two perfect beings, one doesn't exist, one does. Well, the perfect being that doesn't exist isn't as perfect as the perfect being that does exist. So for that to be a perfect being, it would need to exist. That would make it perfect. Therefore the perfect being exists and a lot of people really don't like that. They don't like making existence a property and giving it to God. It's circular, it begs the question. You're defining God into existence. I think imperfections create the perfect anyway. Oh, you actually are a little philosopher. I know you hate it. You're a bit of a rogue one, but

when he gets... Where was it we went? When we were in Finland, me and you peeled away for like an hour and a half and... Oh, what are you doing? Yeah, you're talking about that science thing. We were just stroking each other's brains. Oh. Oh. No, but you do like discussing it. You like to write off a lot of silly takes. He does. He does actually. And then when you break it down, he actually... Yeah.

A lot of it's in nonsense though, don't get me wrong. But you like... I like to break it down. You only think that because they're such simple ideas. I only think that because I like them. But you like practical philosophy of like how these things actually impact my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's stuff where it's like more theory and you know, being rather than doing. You don't really take an interest to.

Yeah, exactly. Interesting. So where are we putting him? Avoiding my party. Break show. All right. Socrates. Hit me daddy.

So Socrates is Hit me, daddy. So Socrates is... Would you say he's the most famous philosopher? Socrates? Maybe. Potentially Marcus Aurelius as well though. I've never heard of him. Marcus Aurelius?

He was the Roman emperor. He's a left back for Chelsea. Maybe Socrates is like a generic big name and everyone goes, oh, that's a philosopher. In terms of this tier list, so like Socrates taught Plato, Plato taught Aristotle. All that kind of comes back to Socrates being like, and then Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. So there's a really cool like chain there, but Socrates with the original guy, but Socrates never wrote anything down.

Plato wrote down, why wouldn't he do that? Cause he was just a teacher. He was just teaching people. He didn't necessarily. Just a teacher. Yeah. And so, and so Plato wrote a lot of the things out and a lot of Plato's works, Socrates playing a pivotal role in conversations, and the idea of Socratic questioning is going like...

It's constantly just questioning things, kind of the same way you do, like when you go like, oh, this is what we know, oh, how do we know that, how can you prove that, why are you saying that? No, he doesn't, he goes, what's the point of proving it? No, I don't. I question everything. But even that's kind of philosophical. At school, in science, genuine, I had a ban on questions. I was only allowed to ask three questions a lesson.

You do? You ask questions a lot. That's a word limit from the teacher, though. And a word limit. No, that's two separate lessons. Okay. Chemistry was three questions, biology was word limit. Okay. And also, I think you're like the fact that with Socrates he wasn't, he didn't see philosophy necessarily as just this abstract concept that's all academic. He saw it as almost something that

you like work out your mind and your body and soul and stuff every day. Like it was a thing that should have practical consequences. Yeah, I agree. But things like how to live a good life, you know, you'd get drunk, have a bottle of wine with people and be like, oh, what does it mean to you to be a good person? What does it mean to you to live a good life?

These are important questions. And they'd give him an answer and they'd go, oh, like wealth, and they go like, and they'd go like, oh, well if you had wealth, would you necessarily be happy? Well, what is wealth to you? What about you, wealthy and ill? Like, what is wealth? Yeah, yeah, well, if you had wealth, would you necessarily be happy? Where what is wealthy? You know, like what is wealthy?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Health is wealth. And this Socratic questioning was going like, ask a question, get the response and then like dive into it. What are the definitions? How are you defining words? We're going to get into it for the, I can see Broch Spinoza up there who you're, this is going to...

I'll put Socrates near the top. Describe wealth. But that's an interesting one. What is wealth? What is wealth to me? I mean, naturally you get to monetary, don't you? I think. No, I don't.

Well, okay. Well, when I think of wealth, I think of monetary. What, how much, how much monetary possessions you have, whether that's physically money or assets or... Me personally, to consider myself wealthy, I think I'd put it down to monetary, definitely. I think that's just the way I'm... Don't get me wrong, I'd rather be poor and healthy than rich and unhealthy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Therefore, wealth is health.

Well, no, because I think wealth and health are two separate things to me. Wealth can be an abundance of family. I value my health over my wealth, but wealth is what you have, isn't it? It's... I think wealth can be measured. I don't think health or happiness can be. Health can be measured. I don't think so. This is it, though. Health can be measured. I don't think health or happiness can be. Health can be measured.

I don't think so. This is it though. Health can be measured. You can measure your heart rate variability, you can measure your resting heart rate, you can measure your blood pressure. True, and then you can wake up dead tomorrow, so I don't think you can ever know your true health. You can influence... I do agree with him, sorry. I'm sorry, I mean, you know what I mean. You can influence your healthy factors, but like...

You catch... Give yourself the best chance. Yeah, of course. It doesn't necessarily guarantee it. Some of the healthiest people in the world, footballers have fucking had cardiac arrest. Yeah. And have they not got the best equipment in the world to measure their health? But also you could say that they give themselves the best chance and just because something goes undiagnosed doesn't mean you don't have that.

You're more likely to die of heart attack if you've got high cholesterol and are very much largely overweight. Yeah, so you can influence the factors around health, but I don't think you can necessarily fully control You can measure your wealth more than you can measure your health. That's all I'm saying And I think wealth doesn't that I think they're separate what means more to you health or wealth Hey health health. I imagine to most people I think Because it would be like about that question that was going on not long ago Like I'll give you 10 billion pounds right now, but you don't wake up next week. You wouldn't take it with Joe No, not a question that was going around not long ago, like, I'll give you £10 billion right now but you don't wake up next week, you wouldn't take it would

you? No. Is that a question that was going around last week? I saw a TikTok of this guy being like, oh would you accept £10 billion right now? And the guy was like, well yeah, he said, what if I told you that next week you die? Would you have it? He'd go, no. I think everyone would say that wouldn't they?

Yeah. Interesting. I mean actually he'd have a good week though, wouldn't you? Yeah, oh yeah Or what bad week? How would it be bad? billion pounds this guy Marques Aurelius, no, that's the one next to I've never heard of who's this one. Oh Curious I've heard of him. There's a horse Curious so a lot of the philosophers at the time were concerned about how to live a good life, fulfilling

all this kind of stuff, how to be like a good person. His was more about trying to figure out what makes us happy and satisfied. And he had an observation. There were a lot of rumors that he was shagging all the time, would have 10 orgasms a night. It would make sense, though, because back in Roman times, they all shagged everyone. Well, he held like epicurean, like almost lock-ins, right? Commute, yeah. So like he kind of looked around and challenged a lot of what people thought made them happy.

A lot of people thought that love and sex made you happy. And he looked around and he saw people cheating and couples arguing and jealousy and all this kind of stuff. And he was like, friendship is actually more important. Like people that spend time with their good friends tend to be happier and that's where happiness comes from. Kind of thought that having like the, you don't necessarily need all the luxuries. It's all about having safety, like good food, all that kind of stuff. But his, like one of his main things was these epicurean households.

Yeah. And he kind of like conjured all these ideas of like what made him happy. And essentially like went to live with a bunch of his friends and they sort of all had their own private areas, but they had a lot of shared space. So shared dining rooms, shared living rooms, all that kind of stuff. And it just became like a massive thing. Like at the height of the movement, there were like 400,000 of these epicurean households where like people would live with their family and friends like all really close to each other.

Communities. They'd have their private space. Communes, that's what the essentially like communes like the church eventually took them over. But they are the remnants of these communes at the time. And nowadays, a lot of people are really going back to it. And you sort of got all these fancy people to, you know, as bankers, politicians to quit their jobs and they do perform tasks in the, in the, in the local area.

And they, you know, a couple of them would go farm for food, a couple of them make pottery, but they ended up saying that they were a lot happier living that simple life of breaking bread, having wine in the evening, spending the days, you know, farming in the farms and making pottery. That's pretty interesting. There are a lot of people now going back to that. You'll see them on TikTok, going back to these epicurean households and going like, actually sell my house, sell my flat in London. It's, you know, I'm in the rat race.

I'm working 9am to 8pm every night. I get home, I'm exhausted. I sleep, I wake up. What the hell is the point? And they go and they buy and they all have their own little space and they all have their own little roles. And they spend every night, you know, having dinners together with their mums and their kids and their cousins.

How do they have their money? Is that not very common in... I don't want to get the communities wrong. It's common in the Jewish community, isn't it, that? I think. I don't really know much about the Jewish community. I'm pretty sure, like basically they all... It's a lot of, you look after your own and you're a massive. that I think I'm pretty sure basically they all it's a lot of you

look after your own and it's your own massive and I think see come to see on seeks really begin to that as well though I don't want to be offensive I thought I'm not sure if it's but you get those kind of ideologies a lot in like well I basically any communities you know yeah everyone worked like you got a fishing department, blah, blah, blah. No one's really out to make capitalist gains or anything. You just always supporting each other within this tiny community. Yeah, they all look after each other. Well, it's interesting that you bring up capitalism as well because Karl Marx wrote his PhD thesis

on Epicurus. And the idea of communes, the Epicuring communes is where the idea of communism comes from just going like we actually don't need these like intense like social structures. Like all we need is for everyone to go this is what I can give to the community. Here's what I need. But it's not though is it? Well it's obviously very complicated like you know there's the arguments about whether you would we have doctors, police. Would you have the same level of innovation without the profit motive?

Maybe not, like it's complicated in getting the balance right. But the nice thing about a more free society like the one we live in is we at any point could choose, you guys could go like, when we hit 35, maybe you've made enough money for YouTube. You'll just go and live out in Portugal, all grab houses near to each other, buy your old parents a little house down the road, play golf and you know, meet up every night and have every night and have a few beers, have a few drinks. Spent you know you've got your own private space to be with your wife.

I'd put him in Solid Takes. Yeah that's Solid Takes I think. Mark Cerrelius, big fan of his. Yeah. He's the boy. He was in Gladiator. He was. Peter O'Toole.

Yeah great actor as well. He was Dumbledore in the early films yeah yeah no one film he was one film peter o'toole in philosophy of stern no it wasn't no that was richards it was only in the first one wasn't in gladiator wasn't it richards it was in the first one oh it wasn't it peter it was dumbledore in the first one and then michael gambon might get the actors confused here it was michael gambon mich Michael Gambon took over from the second Harry Potter. He was only in the first. I know who the... I know who... That's not Marcus Aurelius in... No, no, I've got my actors mixed up then. It's Richard Smith or something.

What's his name? Who played the first Harry Potter? Yeah, who's the first Dumbledore? He's on the tip of my tongue, man. Richard Harris. Richard Harris. Yeah. And Richard Harris was... Dumbledore in the first one. tongue, man. Richard Harris. Richard Harris. Yeah. And Richard Harris was- Dumbledore in the first one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're right, guys.

In, oh yeah, there, gladiator. Yeah, great, great actor. But yeah. Iron Chamber of Secrets. Marcus Aurelius might be goat status. Talk to me about him, apart from being a great war leader. So that's the point. he was like the most important person in the world at that time and he still had these Really fundamental basic ideas of how you should just be a good person. Where's he from? Yeah Rome, right? Emperor of Rome

Was he what before Julius Caesar or? Later was no Julius Caesar was late. Yeah, he was really came after really I thought he was one of the other he's early I always 150 ish ad and maybe yeah maybe 200 BC. I remember the first one. Oh yeah, so he's well after 200 years after. Yeah, 120 AD. Yeah, okay, that's my bit. But yeah, so he obviously wrote a lot of these meditations, these thoughts to himself without

expecting them to ever be published. He was one of those people that he wasn't writing for them to be books, you know, to communicate to people. They were like thoughts to himself. And like you said, he was just like deep down, he all thought we had a duty to be just and fair and a good person, which as a ruler with like almost unlimited power, it's pretty rare to come by. But isn't it also quite interesting that he thought that but would just conquer the world?

Yeah, but that was his that was his duty as though. He was just trying to expand the Roman Empire. And I think a lot of people underneath thought that he was a great man to them. He was a very just and fair ruler. He was creating a lot of better worlds, that didn't he, in the Roman Empire. He brought farming to Britain. Didn't he?

Yeah. Interesting. But the character, well, obviously it's not historically accurate or whatnot, but like the whole point in Gladiator is like, he's this incredible Roman emperor and he's just the nicest person as well. Yeah. I always think about the line where he says to Maximus and he says, essentially, will you become the ruler of Rome?

And he says, with all my heart, no. And Marcus Aelius turns around and says, it must be you, and that is exactly why it must be you. You're a good ruler, not because you want the power and the wealth and stuff, but because you're fundamentally a good person. And Commodus the bastard, he's one of my most hated characters of all time. But fantastic performance. Joaquin.

He's top three most hated characters of all time, fantastic Joaquin Joaquin Joaquin but he's top three most hated characters of all time him and Joffrey he's unbelievable like that one day really you never seen gladiator never seen gladiator homework you gotta watch that my favorite films of all time yeah my favorite film of all time generally

you're not using it Russell Crowe Russell Crowe is the main guy and Joaquin Phoenix Brad Pitt Brad Pitt Tom is in it. Russell Crowe is the main guy and Joaquin Phoenix. Brad Pitt? Brad Pitt's not in it. Do you like Troy? I've never seen him. What? Type in Brad Pitt and Troy. Oh, Billy. Bancrush Monday. They're not my type of films. No, they're one of the best films ever made. I just think when he takes down Boaguius. There's this like scene at the start of this where he goes to fight this essentially giant man. Absolutely massive. He's this scene at the start of this where he goes to fight this essentially giant man. Absolutely massive. He's like riding off on a horse with his sword and this kid just goes like, are you going

to fight? Oh, what was his name? It's like a Galath type. Boaguius was the guy that he was playing, right? Oh, the guy who was fighting. The guy's fighting. Anyway, he's fighting this absolute giant man and this kid comes up to him and he goes like, are you going off to fight this giant man? And he goes like, yes. And the kid goes, he's huge,

like I wouldn't want to fight him. And he goes, that is why no one will ever remember your name. Oh, there he is, absolute unit. It's so sick. It's just, he's just, we won't tell you what happened, but there's a little number on it. Don't forget to look out for the plane in one of the scenes. Oh yeah, is that true? Or was that just in the thumbnail? They let a plane. They let a plane. They didn't shut down airspace for it.

Enjoy. Yeah, I see this, but I don't know if it's... Yeah, there's a plane in the background. Gladiator. That's just a... Gladiator wants to click bait, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, that's the... Oh, you've got to see Gladiator, Tom. It's one of the best films ever.

Yeah, out of the two, definitely go Gladiator. I might do. Bang on, now you've got to watch them both. Mike's really just go. Huh? Go, I'll find it. Is Gladiator the one where he's like, are you not entertained? Yeah.

Yes. So, and just before... Oh, s***. Because they're a couple... So obviously, like, massively stoic, is one of the people that was like... Are you not into it? Yeah. Yes. So in just because I had a cup. So obviously I massively stoic is one of the people that was like, you just need to just forget about the stuff you can't control. Marcus Ray is still like all you can focus on. All you need to be concerned about is like your actions, your response to things. Yeah. Like staying calm in the face of anger, like stress, pain, all that kind of stuff was really cool. So I like this sound of him.

I relate to Marcus. But my favourite thing, my favourite thing in meditations is, yeah, this kind of like meta idea of like, obviously at the time that everyone's like constantly having these debates at how can you be a good man? Is it like being loyal? Is it being wise? Is it being strong? Is it all this kind of stuff?

And he said, waste no more time discussing what a good man should be. Be one. Yeah. Just quite cool. Just being like, Oh, you guys, you sit around and drink all night. Why do you know so much about philosophers? Just your own research or did you study? I just like reading. You didn't study that at uni? No, no, no, I didn't study. I've read meditations only quite recently, actually. I finished a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Shout out Master Alias. It's the kind of thing that I've just finditations only quite recently actually. Oh nice. I finished a couple of weeks ago. Shout out Master Alias. It's the kind of thing I just find super interesting. Obviously... It is.

Especially now we're influencers. If you had to tell me to read a philosophy slash stoicism book. Meditations. Meditations is probably like an all-time... That's the number one. You will infinitely live a happier life and be a better man for reading it comfortably. To be fair, Ryan Holiday actually breaks everything down quite well in terms of a new age way of reading things.

What's it called again? Ryan Holiday. He does the Daily Stoic. So you know the 300? No, what's the book called? Oh, Marks and Reds Meditations. You can get it as an audiobook and if you're just going on walks or cycling, just plop it on.

It's very interesting. So who is the last one? Ah, Barros Spinoza. Oh, he's this little bastard all about then. Kukurela. Kukurela, I think this is it. Kukukukurela. He grew up Jewish and essentially challenged the ideas of traditional religion.

Oh, his own faith? Kind of. He believed in, he essentially said that God wasn't personal, he didn't judge us, there was no afterlife. He wasn't a person watching us, like, telling us to take up the Holy Sword and, like, have sex with these particular people in this particular way and all this kind of stuff. He thought it was all kind of nonsense. He thought that God was, He was a pantheist of this kind of unifying idea of, like, God, God for Him was essentially synonymous with, like, nature and the universe and the cosmos and all this kind of stuff. But God for him was essentially synonymous with nature and the universe and the cosmos and all this kind of stuff.

And so when people quote Einstein talking about God, Einstein believed in Spinoza's God, this idea that God is just like a fundamental essence. Like an entity. Yeah, it's not like a person, it's not personal. It's not like an actual man just in the sky. It's a broader concept, I suppose. Yeah. And got his life.

Which does imply that you are part of. Yeah, I am a part of you. And obviously like it, his whole thing was like we should live off reason and what we can like reason among us. And I think it's so fundamental to in the modern times, how to be a good person and how to do the right things is to think logically and reasonably. And he kind of was like, you know, these ancient texts that a lot of people look to for moral guidance. Sure, there's a lot of beauty and wisdom in them,

but there's also a lot of error. And if you think about it logically and reasonably, you can see that and you can actually be a better person by living the reason and, you know, critical thinking than you can by abiding by tradition and, you know, other people's thoughts and stuff. So, really good, really interesting. But also, he didn't believe in free will, which I know you guys can't batch. Bit weird. So, he was a determinist. Let's get him out.

So, he believes everything's already determined? Essentially, yeah. Is that by the nature that God is just everything in the universe, therefore the future of that is already decided? Yeah, it's already, yeah, it's like... So, do you disagree with this? Yes. How come?

Everyone's got free will. This is the bit that pisses me off, like... Yeah, so why does it piss you off? How much do you speak about this with bats? It's deep, actually, I was like, yeah, but you were always going to say that. I was like, it's not, though. How do you know it's not? Because I know and I don't need to otherwise.

My thing with it is, if we didn't have free will, we wouldn't argue about having free will. Why? Because if it's already, surely if everything's already determined for us, we wouldn't challenge the concept of it. That's also why I think there's a valid argument for God not existing, because if God did exist, why would he make us, for millions of people, not to believe in Him or said person? That is the free will argument against the existence of God.

That is a big argument against God going like, if God knows everything that's going to happen and also set everything in motion and nothing happens without God willing it, how is someone like Jeffrey Dahmer who built, he obviously had some sort of maybe genetic taste for killing because his dad had it. The combination between his brain chemistry and lived experiences meant that he was going to go on to murder. If God created him like that, knew he was going to be like that, could have made him a different way because God's all powerful, but chose to make him that way. Although Jeffrey Dahmer made those choices, God made him the type of person that wanted to make those choices.

So how can he ever get punished for it? How's that moral? How's that right? So that's like a massive argument against God and a big reason why a lot of people don't believe in God. Do you not think there was also like, if we didn't have free will, then we're all just puppets living in like this play that is just happening around us. And if you don't believe in free will, you could just sit there and wait for things to happen, because something's going to be planned for me. You could just sit on the sofa and... I think you slightly mis-trait a lot of what the idea of free plan is.

No, I know, but I get what you mean. But if you really believe in your own free will, then you have way more of a desire to go out and make things happen But your desire doesn't change so like you it like as a person Either want like you you'll have a drive to be successful Then say a lot of people are the other people won't drive comes and goes Yeah It does and and so I mean it really depends on what you mean by free will a lot of this argument comes down to Whether you're defining it as uncaused or

Voluntary so if you mean free will is like I can go and get a cook I can I can leave this podcast right now if I want to and go get a coca-cola Like that would be voluntary for me. I can choose to do it a lot of people especially in philosophy kind of the idea of free will is that it's kind of like Uncaused and the idea is the lack of free will idea is that everything is caused like everything that happens Has a prior cause which has a prior cause which has a prior cause that all goes back to the big bang and every instance Of facts in the universe is the inevitable consequence of the previous instance in the universe So like we're getting onto this conversation

Because we were like we all find this interesting. We're all interested in it We've got you guys have a podcast and why do you have a podcast because you're the type of people that you know Maybe you're slightly you're born more entrepreneurial and you're born into a civilization where you know podcasting is a thing And so not the case. I was forced into YouTube I know you weren't forced into it, but it was just an inevitability like you didn't have free will All of the causes that led up to you becoming an influencer Like you were an influencer because of these causes and these causes have a cause and those chose to do it I point but everyone and you your argument is you always gonna do it anyway

Yeah, so what like that's just do you know what do you actually believe? Because you're just explaining the idea. He doesn't believe. Yeah. So I, but I also think that it's almost impossible when you really look into it to believe that we have free will in terms of it's not caused in a chain of reaction. Like I think if you speak to most people that have read about this or physicists who... That's fucking interesting. It's very difficult to come to the conclusion that we have any actual choice that isn't just predetermined as a chain of causes. That's just because of these books and stuff you've been reading in literature rather than just like actually going off how you feel and how you live in the real world.

No, but not going off how you feel because when you engage with it, you engage with the literature. If you never read those books, you wouldn't have that knowledge. You wouldn't think that. I wouldn't think about it true, but just because I wouldn't think about it doesn't mean that it's not true. You could say that about a lot of things though, couldn't you? And you can engage with literature that says that of the opposite and that we have soul

and then it causes us, yeah, of course, like I spend a lot of time like in theology. But no one's right on this. You can't sit and tell me you're right that there is no free will. No, but I think... No, you could. I can't sit there and tell him he isn't right. He's opinion. He thinks that's right. He thinks that's right though. He was though. But I think with the knowledge that you acquire, it's perhaps the reasonable belief is to believe that we don't have free will. In your opinion. Uncaused in my opinion, yeah.

And I think that's it. So like I struggle with no one saying, do you think you can argue that we have free will? I just choose to accept that we have free will. So you're doing what people... I don't know, I haven't read the books that will give me the argument. You don't need to. A lot of philosophers... I struggle to articulate in my book. We have the illusion of free will and that will make the argument. You don't need to. A lot of philosophers... I struggle to articulate my thoughts.

We have the illusion of free will and that's all that matters. So the most of the people that would say that we're determinists that think that everything is predetermined, that they're all result of causal chains, you kind of have to accept that we have the illusion of free will for things like moral accountability. Let's say for Jeffrey Dahmer, you can almost through this lens pity him a little bit by going like, you've got this fucked brain chemistry evident. No, that's such a cop-ass.

Okay, you know what? He chose to do that. Okay, let, let, let. No, no, I'll just, I don't want to get really, it's a bit like, I strongly believe like, paedophiles have something, like they're mentally ill, like there's obviously something, but that, they didn't, they don't choose to be attracted to kids, do they? That'll be there a lot of times. Jeffrey Dahmer didn't choose to want to eat people, did he?

No, but his upbringing was a result of that. I don't think murderers don't choose to just, oh, when I grow up, I want to kill people. See, Arthur's arguing something's led to that. So he's out of their control, therefore you don't have to just oh when I grow up I want to kill people something he sees Something's led to that All their food Because his father was a murderer so he's grown up with this ideology I don't think his dad murdered anyone did he just have this he said to him like I know So exactly so if that never happened chance, I probably would have okay

How about this one? This is a nice middle ground to like for you to like tip over the fence one way or another let's say tomorrow your dad gets a brain tumor that just destroys the part of his brain that gives him empathy and essentially turns him into a murderer yeah and tomorrow he goes on a murder spree and and and the doctors you know he dies they have an autopsy and they go, we've looked at his brain. He ended up having this tumor that just wiped out everything that made him not want to kill, like affected his brain chemistry.

Do you think he's as evil as someone like Jeffery Dahmer still? Do you go, my dad was as evil as Jeffery Dahmer? Let's say he did all the same things, but it was caused by the brain tumor. Well, in some ways, yes, but I'd say no. Why no? Because of the biological change out of his control. That's what we're arguing about Dahmer. It was out of his control because there's whatever was wrong with him.

And don't give me one like- How did they test his brain? He still, he still made the- but you don't need to test it to be like- My point is that he, that's a very physiological change happened overnight Which is unrealistic whereas Dharma was was raised in this household and had all these different factors affecting him It's not just one thing or the other as a multitude of factors They go to be like people who sexually assault people when they're older got sexually assaulting when they were younger Yes, my point is so my point and I'm obviously I'm not no one's condoning that

Yeah, that's my point. That's literally my point. And obviously no one's condoning that, or saying that's okay. Yeah, this isn't a defense of them or anything. But the point he's making is that's technically out of their control because of prior things. I'm not saying it's okay. Of these cases, the person in trouble will sit down with the law and be like,

yeah, we should claim being crazy and try and get off. True, but- But then they're using that. I don't know what that's got to do with what they... That's not related to the free will argument though. No, but they use their argument of like, oh yeah, my brain chemistry is off. That's why I did all this stuff. They're using that as an argument.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they're any less culpable. It's why you still go to prison. You just go to a... Yeah. Yeah? They are still guilty if they kill all the people. And it's important that like, just because we don't we don't We necessarily don't have free will

Talking about you said to me they all still guilty if they kill people I said obviously hmm, I Do I do think you make a lot of interesting points? I do think it's quite interesting to think that yeah, really silly people are people who do commit these atrocities or whatever Like if you really think about it in that way, it's not their fault people who do commit these atrocities or whatever, if you really think about it in that way, it's not their fault. But then you also don't want to think like that because then you're like,

it's almost like you feel like you're condoning it. And don't you? Even if Nama had these urges, right, he still acted on them. Yeah, he did. So many people have that. But we're not saying that he forget off Fritz. The subject is different because,

and they're trying to argue that Dhar Dharma was already predisposed to doing this. He's still a guilty person, he still did horrible things. He's still a piece of shit and he deserved to be like killed or whatever. You're saying he was always going to do it? Based on what happened? Based on his theory of the philosopher. No, I don't have an issue with that. We can still say that he was always going to do that, so like for Dharma you go like,

okay, well you... You're saying he was predetermined to do it. Yeah, he might have been predetermined to do it. I said he's still chosen to do that. So like for Dharma, you go like, okay, well, you, you're saying he was predetermined to do it. Yeah, he might be predetermined to do it. But I said he's still chosen to do it. He still made the voluntary choice. But so again, this is why it's important to make the distinction on free will and whether you're talking voluntary or uncaused, because you can make something voluntarily like he does, which is why he's culpable, but that's caused by a

causal chain. So that it really depends on where you're getting free will. But you can still say like, I, we can voluntarily as a society, even though that was predetermined, say that, well, next time someone has a voluntary choice to kill or not kill, we want to put them off. So we should make murder illegal. So yeah, prison and also if John Dahmer is predetermined to kill, we should make sure that he's in prison to protect our population from killing anyone else. So we can still have justice and, you know, deal with him appropriately.

And then also you see this lens. It's not he doesn't pre-determination stuff. But if if you are pre-determined to kill and you put him in prison before he's killed, that's unfair on him because he hasn't killed. But we don't know that what you're on about until he does it. You don't know that, do you? No, but he's saying it as the example. No, no, he's saying there was always going to be a point I mean that

is fair because like I said the fairness comes from the fact that he's likely to kill again he's done it and we also need to need it to be something that puts people off doing it in future like there are a lot of reasons to put him in other than going like you know they don't escape this more moral culpability just because it's the inevitable consequences of a causal chain because justice would also be inevitable consequences of a causal chain. But it definitely does make you look at people like that somewhat differently, almost like when, you know, a lion rampages or like an elephant rampages through a village and you're kind of like, Oh, well, you know,

or a shark or shark attacks someone and he's like, well, you were in there fucking you're kind of like oh well you know or a shark attack someone each like well you were in their fucking you're in their home. Do you think free world exists all across the whole world? You'd have to agree with him. But it would be interesting, you can disagree. No no, I'm arguing for you here. I was about to ask a completely different question. Go on.

I was going to say do you think it exists across the whole world in the animal kingdom as well? All species? Well, I don't think it exists at all. What do you mean? Theo's saying you don't believe in free will. Do you believe that in all species? In just humans or just all species? So you're asking if I think, oh, free will doesn't exist in humans, but it exists in monkeys? Yeah, like lions or anything like that. No, I think the whole world, everything in the entire world is just physics in motion. That's fucking I think that's really

interesting. It's one domino falling into another domino. I don't think I agree but I agree more after I heard it. That would either send you one way or the other like a fork in the right. Can you think of a voluntary thing? You see, you see, I don't think of it like that. It's like people who go, oh, if you don't believe in an afterlife, like I don't, what's the point of living? Well, because I think I'm here for a short amount of time. Let's make the most of it, blah, blah. And then so be it.

Then I don't exist. I don't look at it like, even if I don't have free will, so what? Like, I kind of like to see what's going to happen anyway. Like I don't, I think you can think about these things and have an interesting convo without getting too caught up and worried about it. Yeah, 100%.

Do you know what I mean? I think it's... You can have, I think you have free will, but you can also have your instinct as well. Like especially in the animal kingdom, like with a lion or whatever like that. Why do you keep bringing lions up? Because you, isn't it like, lion's instinct is to kill.

Yeah. Is to kill. And it's not like the lion was always going to kill this hyena on this day. It was but go on. I must admit when Batch come in and said that I was like no I believe in free will but we didn't really delve into it but after listening to you, you do make sense. They are a good argument. I'm not saying I agree with it but they are a good argument.

The argument for is also the argument against. So hold on yeah because I mean you. Yeah but I have good arguments. The argument for is also the argument against. So hold on, yeah, because I mean you... It's the same argument for again. Each time you disagree, so can you think of something where you have exercised your free will that had no prior cause? But whatever I say, you will say the exact opposite. So that's my point, it's the same argument.

It's exactly the same argument for and against. No, try to test it, I'm interested to see. No, because it doesn't matter what I say. Because it's all... It's just for me, because I'm trying to work it out. I'm trying to figure it out. No, I know, but it doesn't matter what I say, but what argument, because all he has to do is be like,

yeah, that's always going to happen. But as in... Do you see what I mean? As in if you... And I'll just say... You think you've got free will now. You think you've got free will now, right? Make a choice.

Like, pick a... Okay, pick left or right on my hands right now. You think you've got free will now, right? Make a choice like what pick a pick. Okay, pick pick pick left or right on my hands right now. Right now. Like that said, I'm not gonna pay fine. Whatever. I'm not gonna pick. So you're doing that free will. But you say you can you can clearly see the chain of causation there like the you're doing that because you want to make a point because you disagree with me. What did he do? He did a weird gesture.

But just as much as you can say there's a cause and a claim of that always happening, right? You can also just say, like, yeah, he's chosen to do that after seeing that. Yeah, but that's a cause, that's a chain of cause and effect. But it's also just free will. So you're saying that I'm wrong, that's a get that's a cause that's a chain. That's chain of course. It's also just free will So you're saying you're saying that I'm wrong. That's what you're saying I'm saying I'm no one could be wrong or right in this scenario I'm saying you were never not going to do that. No, but that's it. That's my point. So you're saying you're right and I'm wrong In his opinion be right or wrong. Yeah, they're just different. Yeah. Yeah, surely some of it like Someone we don't know who's got it wrong,

but someone must be right or wrong. Arthur is telling me that I'm wrong. If he was right in thinking that's how the world works, everyone would also agree to that idea, wouldn't they? Oh, my brain's frazzled. You see what I'm saying now? But as in, like, most people don't really think about it? It is a point.

But at the same time, it would be a more, it would be a more, um, what's the word? I'm trying to think., like a more general idea. I think it wasn't quite generally accepted that we don't have free will. So that's what I was saying, I think it generally is in terms of, I think most people are this kind of like, compatibilist of going like everything is caused and it's all the result of a chain of cause, but we have this like free will of illusion. I think you are doing, I think if you do you think there will be a better place if everyone believed in free will or didn't believe? I actually don't think it makes any difference because we we have the illusion of free will anyway so in a Theo sense, in all practically speaking

we have free will in terms of we can choose whatever we want to choose, but I just think there's no use in, I think the main use in it, right, is similar to what Bach said. It's all about regrets and stuff, looking back and going like, I really wish, let's say for example, like, you know, I didn't get into the university that I wanted to get into, because I failed the interview because I didn't prepare enough, because I chose to study rather than put like an immense amount of time into preparing for the interview. I can look back and I just think it's a waste of time going like, I wish I had studied more,

I wish I'd, because I was never going to, I'm always the type of person that prioritises that kind of stuff. I think I should pop out. Should be in later. But it's not pop out because it's only going to benefit me because I'm not wasting any time going, all I can do is learn from it. What are your views on, um, yeah, well hang on, hang on, hang on. What are your views on- You can't learn from it though, because

I can learn from it. No, no, no, you can't because you're claiming that no matter what happens, that was already predetermined. So there's no point in you learning from it because it's already predetermined what you're going to do in the future. In terms of, I still have the voluntary

choice to learn from it so I can still look back and learn from it. And it's that that's going to be uncaused. Every voluntary choice is free will, but you're saying it's not. Yeah, because I don't actually think when you're sitting there going, I'm choosing between these two, okay, I'm going to go with A over B. I don't think I think there's a chain of things that lead you to A inevitably. And you picking A is

What are your thoughts on choosing something that's purely chance based then? Like what? Like a roulette table for example. Yeah see I think everything even coming down to how hard they throw the ball and how many times it'll whip around is all but honestly if you... Someone's life is built up to how fast they throw the ball around. But like they were never going to throw it even harder or even...

I kind of get it though, because it could be the person throwing it. It could have everything in their life led up to them maybe having an energy drink before their shift. So therefore they're all more amped up, so they throw it harder. Every single thing has a cause that is... The inevitable consequence.

I do get it. I do understand. Yeah, yeah. That's why it's an idea that people do believe. And so, yeah. If everyone in the world believed in that and not free will, I think it would be a really bad world because I think you're giving too much credit to the human race. No, because I- I think a lot of people would become lazy.

I think you go on a weird con- Oh, I think I'm weird for the way I think. You derive a conclusion from it that I don't think necessarily follows No, but I think that's what happened if you'd read it realistically, I think a lot a lot of people would think like that Okay, so think like we care less about everything Responsibilities for do you think his opinion on that is also weird? So why would you care less? So let's say for example, I think everything is, everything is ignoring that everything is a cause of change. You disagreed with me.

I do agree. I think there is an element of free will. I think, I think your opinion is weird. I think soft predeterminism is probably the part of the spectrum that I'm on. Okay. No, I don't believe fully that I think it's crazy to even put everything that's chance based down to some sort of cause and effect into the world. Even like throwing a dice, like the second you release, it's always going to land on that number. Okay, what about dice app? It spins so much.

When you press it, it doesn't affect it. When you press on the dice app, it doesn't affect what number you're going to get. Yeah, but there's a chain of causation in there in terms of the electric, the way the app works, where the software runs. Random does exist. Random exists on a quantum level.

So there you go. That must imply that at some stage larger it's... But even when you get down to the quantum level, whether it's random, whether you choose A or B, that random event isn't your free will, but it's just... If you were on this list, I'll put you in deepsit too much. I would agree that that's deepsit,

because I don't think there's much practical use of it. I don't think there's any use of it going forwards. I don't think anyone, if you think about it properly, would like change the way they live, because I still live a certain life. I still have certain desires of what I want to achieve in life, all that kind of stuff. I'm going to be motivated regardless whether it's-

I imagine it relinquishes a certain amount of stress because you're just like, well, it's going to happen anyway. Yeah. And it makes you very stoked with the past because you don't waste that much time going like, I wish I had done something different. You just go like, I'm a human, I make mistakes, I've messed up, I've done something wrong, I've done something bad or whatever. All I can do going forwards is go, what have I learned from it? How can I be a better person next time? How can I

apply what I regret in terms of the next experience? But some people will be out there saying, this is how I work, I'm not going to act like this because this is how I'm meant to act. And it's an excuse to be a dick. But they're not free from the consequences. That's true though, isn't it? Like, there are many people in the world who would think like that. But you can turn around, let's say there's a guy over there and his name's Dominic and he goes like, I'm a dick and that's just the way I'm determined. Cool, they might be predetermined, but we can still

choose to not hang out with you. We can still call you a dick to your face. You know, if you push me against the wall, I can still punch you in the face, just because it's all predetermined. Like, it doesn't mean you're free from the consequences of your actions, just that they're on their cause too. But he has a choice. He could just not act like that. Yeah, it's voluntary. But whether or not he acts like that is predetermined and has a chain of causation. But all you can do to end this conversation,

all you can say is no one's right. And not even you, Arthur. Yeah, I don't know that I'm right for sure. I'm just convinced of this position. Convinced. Yeah. I don't know anything other than that I exist. He's put up some good arguments.

No, I know. I wish I had the... This is definitely the most intelligent podcast we've done so far. Or unintelligent. Tell you what. Yeah, depending on which side of the fence you sit. I will say I'm in the middle of a book by Dan Barker called Free Will Explained and I think it's fascinating.

It's not that long. It's about a four hour audio book. Again, if you have a half an hour cycle, if you have a half an hour cycle, well, like if I have a half an hour cycle home, that's why I say it, that's, you know, and I do that eight times in a week. That's my four hour book done.

I've read a book. And it's while I'm cycling. Ideas fresh in his mind. That being audible. And he believes in free will, does he? So he kind of thinks that he's the same, like kind of accepts that everything is predetermined, but we need to be compatibilist in terms of like, we need to accept that free will exists for like moral accountability.

Right. So like, you know, so it's interesting and I might change my mind and I'm, I think with everything I'm open to, you know, if you present an argument that's strong enough, that's stronger than mine, I'll change my mind and I'm I think with everything I'm open to you know if you present an argument that's strong enough that's Stronger than mine. I've changed my mind on it. My issue is that I can't so I just have to accept But if you if you find this interesting go go read the damn Barker books I think it's really good down check out the batch and after podcast. Yeah Well, it's been listening questions. Anyway, if you we are Okay, so we've asked our loyal listeners and viewers to get in touch and ask you a question.

This is what we got. Why have you agreed to this? I had no choice. He was always pretty determined, he was always going to say yes. He was always coming on guys. I love these kind of chat though, I mean this is what it's all about, this is why I love philosophy. We really don't do this very often. No philosophy segment That's that's been a long I think you guys have all individually with me like shown that you love having these kind of conversations

Yeah, whenever we hang out and get drunk We often have these kind of conversations, but we were always gonna have those come I like you boys You're entertaining you have good takes on things You have different opinions to me which I find really interesting exploring Now have a good time and hang out with you guys. That's it. Danny you're very media trained Media trained you think I'm lying? No he means that. It's true. How do you mean that? Tom sent in chicken nuggets sandwich or fish finger sandwich. This wasn't me. It says from Tom It's a big thing innit. Chicken nuggets. I'm real. I love a fish finger sarnie man

I think fish finger sandwich versus chicken nuggets. Chicken nuggets on their own. Chicken nuggets sandwich. Out way, out way. It's weird. A fish finger sandwich is definitely like. Too much carbs for me. I don't like the taste either, really. But the bread crumbs are over the bread, don't they?

A sandwich is too much carbs. If you go to like some pubs, some fancy pubs do like a fancy fish finger sarnie. No, I'm real. And you're sure you didn't- You thought of salad with like lettuce and tomatoes. No, no, it'll be like a nice it'll be like a nice toast toasted salad Oh, we like fish fingers tartar sauce, and it's just now catch. It's not like yeah

Fish fingers sandwiches when I was growing up with just like two pieces of white bread with like Oven which yet is nice, but you can when you squish it flat, but now obviously now I've leveled up in life I get like a fish finger wrap. I've had a fish finger on my ass. That sounds good. Yeah great. I tell you what I did a video the other day with we did like testing influencer products and I used the George Foreman grill for the first time. Oh they're unreal. I've had one for like 10 years. George Foreman is a class. I need to get one. You know who George Fore is yeah the boxer he died recently. Yeah, I think Heavyweight champion of the world two times. Did you know?

Apparently that was I think he was a bit skins and someone said can we just put your name on it? Yeah, yeah wasn't like his invention and like he thought of and then it's class. He just made him absolute I think someone was like sending him products that we need to just put your name Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he ignored them all and his wife came to him was like, by the way, I've opened up some of your things We've been using this grill for months put your name on it. You're gonna be minted. It's sick and then he did That's made me want really want a toasted fish finger app. Yeah, go do it might go get George Foreman What is your philosophy? What is your philosophical? What the fuck? Go get a george foreman. What is your philosophy? What is your philosophical? What the fuck?

Opinion on the brutal axing of the McDonald's triple cheese. What's that? Oh, they got rid of it They got rid of the chicken legend. What the fuck's a triple cheese? I imagine it's like a Toasty isn't a triple cheeseburger. Oh, no way they got rid of it They had it in the first place. I'm not really a McDonald's enjoyer. I don't really ever eat there. Oh my God, they got rid of it. Oh, that's- What would you use burger? Oh, that's horrendous news. I've only just found out.

Why, is that really good? Oh, it's so good. Yeah. Because they have so much cheese in between. I don't like it. I like a burger. When I make burgers at home, I really like them being one thin.

Oh, a thin? Like thin burger. So like in one- I hate thick burgers. I hate thick burgers. When you, I want to get like one mouthful of everything. In a triple cheeseburger, they're all thin layers. No, no, no.

It takes Arthur a long time to eat one burger. It does actually, yeah, yeah. I want one bite to be like lettuce, tomato, bacon, onion, meat patty, but like very squished. Like smash burgers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Iished like smash burgers yeah you know when you go to a restaurant and it's got like a stick oh yeah a bit of bread and a bit

of me yeah I do agree with that and you're like just smash it into one big thing you hydraulic press also you just go to McDonald's you can ask them to add another patty and just do that yeah 24 hours and McDonald's you can ask them to add another patty in and just do that. I'm about to spend 24 hours in McDonald's. What's the weirdest obsession you've ever had? And don't say watching Tom Grant videos. Weirdest obsession? Probably this is my current sea monkey obsession. Sea monkeys?

What are they? Sea monkeys? They're little, they're, what? You know you essentially buy these things and you get a little... Do you ever have sea monkeys growing up? I've never heard of sea monkeys. Crazy, you're from the UK. I was in the UK when I was growing up.

Yeah, they're like in a little tank and they develop into these little... I had them alien things in the jelly, whatever. Are you like 10 years old? These are real, but so again, it was another chip video. We did like testing like kids toys or something and I took the... Sea monkey home. and I took the Why are they these you? Know so basically this inventor decades ago like you remember ant farms were a big thing Yeah, the man was in America shrimp their brine shrimp

So he essentially in you get you get these salt lakes right where these shrimp live and it's super salty. Obviously it's brine water, it's just salty water and these these lakes dry out completely dry to the bone and then when it rains again when it gets wet season they come back and the shrimps are magically back. Yeah. When it rains it pours. And biologists were like what the fuck is this happening? Turns out when the water gets super salty, but meaning that the water is evaporating, the females lay eggs encased in this like brown encasing that when essentially it dries up, they

can last in dry in the sun for decades. And so when it rains again and the lakes refill, they then hatch and the brine shrimp are back. So it's really cool and this inventor went I can put these in little sachets they can be stored dry for goodness knows how long years and years and kids can take them home unzip the sachet pour it in add a bit of water yeah they hatch and it's like instant life and he ended up marketing it through like making these like calling them sea monkeys like drawing them in comics having like lives and towns. We've got some actually, you know in the building. Okay. Thank you

And yeah, these Brian shrimp and actually we've got some from our we probably a bit long to get them But our producers bought us a tank and they probably would have hatched by now and they've got like a Martian background You've got them. Oh, can you please? In the meantime, we we wait for them. I'll just say last night I had a nightmare. Woke up in my nightmare. I put them into a big tank and I spilled it and they were all on the floor. And I woke up genuinely on the verge of tears.

Oh my God. Just thinking that I'd actually spilled it. Eventually your sea monkeys will die though. Well, so I'm creating, I'm building an aquarium for them where they're going to be self-sustaining. That's the most powerful thing ever. So it's like going to have a surface where algae grows and then they eat the algae, poop it out,

the algae takes it in, the algae grows, and it's a life cycle. You're unique. Wow. Would you rather have fingers for toes or toes for fingers? Fingers for toes, definitely. Can I just say, in that situation, right? Yeah, but they would die eventually, just of old age, wouldn't they?

But they'd mate and give birth and... Oh, so you just mean the species? The species, yeah. The sea monkeys, by that point, is it still the ship Athecius? And also, like you've told me many a times, we are going to eventually never die. Maybe. I think we're probably not going to die, but... Would you rather shag an animal?

That's one for another of ours. I love that. I love it when we're probably not going to die, but... Would you rather shag an animal? That's one for another of us. I love it when we talk about that. That's not actually from anyone, that's just your... What was it? Would you rather shag an animal? You guys can answer these two, because I'm sure most people don't care about my opinion. Am I going to live for toes? No, would you rather fingers for toes or toes for fingers?

Oh, I think it's for toes, so monkey. Yeah, I'd have fingers for toes. I'd actually prefer monkey. Yeah. Cool, isn't it? Yeah, I'd have fingers for toes. So monkey-nice. I'd actually prefer that. Yeah. Mate, you could do so much. You could actually do so much with fingers on your feet. Can I grab your bollocks with my feet? Please.

Would you rather shag an animal or a family member? I'd rather shag an animal, I think. Which one specifically? What about like a long-lost cuddle? A rabbit. A rabbit? A rabbit's too small, bro. Surely a dolphin.

What you got to breathe in the... Nah, I'd go for like, yeah, like a... I dunno. A chimp. Oh yeah, you could probably go for something like a blue whale that just wouldn't feel it. How big's a blue whale's arse? Is that shagging it though? What are you, like, it depends what your priority is. No, but I...

You want to reduce the suffering for the animal. I can be near a blue whales are. Is that shagging it though? What are you, like, it depends what you're prior to. No, but I- You want to reduce the suffering for the animal. I can be near a blue whale though, like I'm very- No, you can go underwater, done it. What's that thing? What's that thing? You've got the lasso phobia. What's that?

Like scared of massive objects underwater, but that's more- Yeah, or massive, massive objects, like especially animals. I hate being near them. No, you can't go through it. Big animals, oh Tommy. I couldn't be near a blue whale, that would freak me the fuck out.

Or about like an elephant. Oh no, elephant would be fine. Is this from the set? So, I've just been informed that there was two, but they're not dead. Oh no! Where are they? That's devastating! They're dead, mate, they're not in there.

You can see their crusted bodies, darling? We haven't heard about this. This is your first time on Spoke. Oh, that is absolutely devastating. Poor bloke. Where are they? He's going to do a whole aquarium full of them. I don't see their dead bodies.

Oh, he's actually genuinely upset, guys. They're not there. Your two little sea monkeys are dead. But I thought you'd get loads of them. Why have you only got two? Yeah, why do you only get two in a thing? They must have... He has to be quite careful with them, I think.

You're a murderer. No, it wasn't me. Our producers put them in their deaths. Wasn't even your producer. Were they on the deathbed on the top floor? Yeah. Unfortunately, that was always going to happen. So I think they will have just boiled alive. Oh my god!

Fucking hell! I knew I should have been... Arthur, don't be so stupid now. I didn't want to be so... That water wouldn't have got to boiling point. I wouldn't have boiled to death. No, it was in direct sunlight. Like they, it will, not as in like it turned to 100 degrees.

A heat stroke. And they will just get to your... Boiling to death. That's almost worse though, cause that'll be longer. Oh, imagine dying in a heat stroke. Well, anyway, that was a very fun episode, I must say. Thank you for coming on. Try it, man.

Yeah, that was really good fun. I really enjoyed it. Tell if Theo enjoys it. I loved it. Yeah, he did. Feels like you get angry at a lot of... I wasn't angry. No, not enough of that one.

You just kind of got like, no, I hate it when he says this. Oh, this again. I don't believe it. Yeah, you're yapping too much. You know what pisses me off. Oh, anyway, thanks for coming. Make sure you like, subscribe.

You all know Arthur's stuff will be down below anyway. Hey Arthur. Yeah. Okay, goodbye. Not by yourself. Thanks know Arthur's stuff will be down below anyway Yeah, okay. Goodbye not by itself. Thanks for watching guys. I feel really sad now, man. I'm sorry that happened Fuck him! You can just buy another one You made it to the end well done you if you haven't already hit that follow button Why not tap it right now for new episodes every week? And if you want to catch more backside you can find us on YouTube TikTok and Instagram by typing in backside