Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe - Bonus Episode: The Long Suffering Story Editor

Episode Date: August 4, 2023

If you’ve listened to the podcast you’ve heard me talk about Stuart’s Long Suffering Story Editor, Meg Masters. I welcomed Meg into the Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe podcast studio for a chat recently and asked her the questions on all our minds: Why did Stuart call you Long Suffering? And just how badly did you suffer?So, on today’s bonus episode: a no-holds-barred, exclusive interview with the Vinyl Cafe’s Long Suffering Story Editor, Meg Masters. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From the Apostrophe Podcast Network. Hello, I'm Jess Milton, and this is a bonus episode of Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe. Welcome to the show. I have been looking forward to this for so long. On today's bonus episode of the podcast, I'm going to chat with a dear friend and longtime colleague. Many of you will know her best as the long-suffering story editor. I'm talking about Meg Masters. And I've mentioned before on the podcast that Stuart used to say Meg had her arms deep in the clay of his work. Every single story that Stuart wrote started with a phone call to Meg. Stuart would have an idea and he'd call Meg and they would just yak. That's what he called it. I always thought that was such a funny word. I called Meg to yak.

So I'm absolutely thrilled to have her on the podcast today and hear some of her backstories. Meg, welcome to Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe. Thanks for having me, Jess. So let's start where I know everybody listening wants me to start, which is, why did Stuart call you long-suffering? How much did you actually suffer? Like, how bad was it? It wasn't bad at all. I used to tease Stuart and say that I earned that because of his spelling.

I also used to say that he made the same mistakes over and over again just to keep me employed. But really, no, that was just me teasing him. I didn't suffer at all. Actually, I'm the one who unfortunately came up with that moniker. Stuart asked me to write the liner notes for the CD, Stuart MacLean's History of Canada, and it was a collaboration with composer Cam Wilson. And since Stuart really hadn't done anything quite like that before, I thought maybe the running joke through the liner notes would be that he was an enormous pain to work with. So I sort of ran that all the way through the descriptions.

And when it came to the credits, when I got to my name, I just threw in long-suffering, long-suffering story editor. But what I had forgotten was that Stuart just loved, loved, loved the way American humorist Calvin Trill never referred to his editor at The Nation without describing him as the wily and parsimonious Victor Nabasky. parsimonious Victor Nabasky. And of course, I just given Stuart the gift of a similar moniker, and he loved it, and he adopted it, and he refused to let it go. Well, that's great. I think he also, you know, you, I know, I've worked with you for so, I worked with you for so many years, and I've known you for so long that you would have this, maybe a hard time saying this yourself, because you're so modest, but he really valued not just your work, but your friendship. And I think he recognized that it was a way to shine the light on you a little bit to share his spotlight and to make people

notice you. You know, they were noticing him, but because of that little moniker, he, you know, people would pay attention to your name. And it was a way, I think, for him to show those listening how much a part of his show and his stories you were. So I think there's part of that. Yeah. And it certainly did pique people's curiosity. Everyone asked me about it. Yeah.

Yeah. So let's scroll back. Yeah. How do you, you started working with Stuart even before the Vinyl Cafe had been created. How long did you guys work together? Well, it was over 25 years, actually. It was just after my first child was born. What was he like when you first met him?

What year would it have been when you first met him? It would have been late 91, early 92. And it was Welcome Home, Travels in Small Town Canada. It was a book that a previous editor had actually acquired and I inherited. And I returned to work and Stuart's was the first sort of big project that I had to dig my teeth into. Stuart at the time... Hold on, I'm going to stop you there. So this was before the Vinyl Cafe. He would have been on Peter Zosky's show back then. Is that right?

I think he was still doing his guest appearances then. Monday mornings on. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And my memory of him as being, you know, as he continued to be tall, lanky, but very boyish, long, curly, reddish hair, always, I remember him always being in a plaid shirt. But his sort of

youthful looks were, I think, really deceiving because I was very aware when I started working with him that he was already extremely accomplished. He was an award-winning producer and writer for radio. He was a regular guest on Peter Zosky. He had already written one book, and he also had a flourishing academic career. So I was fairly intimidated, but I have to say he was so genial and welcoming and put me at ease right away. And I immediately discovered that he loved being edited. So even though I was a real newbie in many ways, he wanted to hear my thoughts and responded to them really positively, which was a huge boost in the arm for me. That's true. He sought feedback unlike anyone else I've ever worked with.

Exactly. And not, you know, obviously from people like you who are professionals, but also like from everybody. You know, people would come backstage. They would have won tickets through CBC Radio or something. And they'd come backstage and he'd say, you know, what do you think about the show? And, you know, they'd say, oh, it was great. Like, what are you going to say, right? And then he would grill them.

Like he would keep going until there's always something that could be improved. And he always wanted to know what it was. Yeah. So let's talk about that a little bit and what he was like to edit. What was your process like? How did you work together? Well, he would call to Yak, and the beginning of the phone calls, you know, we would always be just catching up. Sometimes he had – we kept little lists of story ideas, and sometimes he had a story that had an idea that he was interested in exploring.

Sometimes we just batted those around for a while. And we would talk through the story. Sometimes we'd actually sort of get on a roll and we'd pretty much outline a whole story in one phone call. And sometimes he would actually go off and write something very similar to what we talked about. Other times, he'd start on the idea and then take it off in some completely different direction. And then there was, and then he would submit drafts to me and we'd go back and forth and back and forth with those drafts. I know that you have already talked about how often he revised on the road. But before he even got to the road, we would have had,

I mean, maybe five drafts back and forth between us sometimes on my computer. 10 or 15. Yeah, I would have, yeah, a dozen. Yeah. So drafts. So there was a lot of backing and forthing. And a lot of, you know, phone calls. Sometimes he would want to sort of work right through a story. And I would stall out. Like there would be a point at which he'd want to know, like, what to do. And we would both sort of stall out. We'd be spinning our wheels.

And I'd say, I can't really do this on the phone anymore. I have to go away and mull. And I would hang up. That was, and he always laughed at that, my mulling process. And I would hang up. And then I would phone him back when I'd had a thought. But often it was just the process of hanging up the phone. I would immediately think of a thought and I would call him back and he'd say, that was like a 15-second mull. What was that?

Yeah, I think of you like that too. And certainly Stuart was super aware of that. Like, so those phone calls were so, they were such a big thing, right? Like he would, you know, I've talked before on the podcast about how the ideas, you know, where they came from. And I think that changed over the years, too. But like where they would say there would be a spark, right? And that part, quite frankly, was often the easy part. And you guys would start, sometimes that spark would come from your conversations. But often the inputs would come elsewhere, especially I think as the show went on. I mean you were there from the beginning, so you'd know even better than me.

But, you know, later on the sparks would come from all over the place, like from all of our – you know, from my life, from your life, from Louise's life, from Greg's life. And then sometimes even from, you know, something one of us saw on the road or something, sometimes even from audience members who would write in from something. And so you guys would get on the phone and yak and start with that spark of an idea and really turn it into something else. But what I think is interesting is that as the show went on, the stories also, the characters started to give us ideas, right? Like we got to know them so well. And I know you and I sometimes would be like, well, like Stuart would come up with something and I'd be like, oh, Marley would never say that. And he'd be like, that's what Meg said.

Or, you know, like it was like we kind of knew them. Do you, tell me a little bit about that. What was that? I knew them. Do you – tell me a little bit about that. What was that? Well, actually, and now I'm going to – you know, I was thinking about favorite stories that – and one of the things I realized is some of my favorite stories are probably not ones that listeners or even anybody else who worked on the show would necessarily spring to mind. And those are the really early ones, like Pig, Tunnel of Love, Make Money, Earn Prizes, some of those really early ones. And that was because the characters seemed to be sort of being born on the page. I was being introduced for the first time. And I

remember how exciting that was. So I do remember them kind of just growing almost organically. And you're quite right, what would happen is, we'd realize, we tried to keep the characters more or less the same age for years at a time. So we didn't allow them to age. But then we get to a point we think, you know, Sam's gonna hit middle school. I mean, he's got to be old enough now to go to middle school. Like it's been 21 years. Exactly, exactly. He's a 30-year-old middle schooler. school. Like it's been 21 years. Exactly. Exactly. The 30-year-old middle schooler. It's sort of like we used to joke, I'm talking to those of you listening on your headphones right now, we all used to joke on the show that the characters aged the opposite of a dog.

That, you know, like dogs, what is it, seven years for every human year? Well, the characters on the Vinyl Cafe were the opposite, right? Like for every seven calendar years, Stephanie would age one year. Yeah. So that was one of the ways that we would sort of think, okay, what was going to happen to them at this particular age and how would they respond? And I don't know, it was almost as if they were their own little independent entities. We kind of met them and knew them and knew what they would do and what they wouldn't do. Yeah. I love some of those characters, too.

Like, so often there'd need to be a character invented for a specific story. Like, there'd be, you know, and we would maybe never see them again. But Stuart would do these elaborate, like you'd know this better than me, but he would do these often, do these elaborate kind of character sketches, which of course you or I would end up cutting out of the story. But we kind of got a sense of them. But then sometimes what would happen is they'd end up being recurring characters. But of course, you guys wouldn't know at the time that you were inventing a character that was going to come back, right? Even Morley. Yeah. Like even Morley when she first appeared was, you know, when the show started.

This is a story. This is a whole other story for another podcast. But when Morley was first invented, the show wasn't about Dave and Morley. It was about a guy named Dave who owned a record store. the show wasn't about Dave and Morley. It was about a guy named Dave who owned a record store. And Morley, you know, in this particular story, Dave owned a house and Stuart figured, well, if he owned a house, he probably had a family and, you know, enter Morley stage left. But, you know, when that character and so many of the characters were invented, we had no idea that they would end up being recurring characters. But the opposite happened too.

You know, you think someone's going to be a recurring character and you never hear of them again. Or it was like years or even decades between that and, you know, things would happen like they would come back with a different name. And when Morley's mother was first introduced, and I think this was only in one draft, one draft only, she was named Nancy. And I don't think that, I don't think Nancy ever made it to the air. I don't think, you know, but for some reason, I would keep coming back. Instead of Helen, I would keep talking about Nancy. And Stuart would say, who is this Nancy? But it stuck.

Who is this Nancy? But it stuck. But I think one of the characters that I really think about, to your point, about sort of introducing a character for a reason and then them taking on, you know, a bigger and bigger role and becoming full-fledged characters was Jim. Because I think Jim, the neighbor Jim, came in so that Stuart could tell the story about the shirt that he lost that ended up on a fence somewhere. And then Jim just – it was very funny because Jim wasn't really a very full-fledged character. But slowly, he just kept creeping into the stories and becoming a bigger and bigger character. Yeah, that's so interesting. And Jim's such a great character.

And then, of course, as the years went on, we got to know not only more about Jim, but about his mom, Sparkle, right? I love that. So you were talking about how some of your favorite stories are those early stories. The way Stewart wrote in those early days was so different. I know what I think about it, but what do you think about it? What do you think changed about how he wrote or developed the stories in the early days of the show? I think some of those early stories were ones, I may be mistaken, but I think about stories like the pig or skunks or shirts. I think they were stories that he carried around with him for a little bit longer. So I think that when they came, when, I don't remember us, we didn't go back and forth in quite the same manner. It wasn't as lengthy. I think he had them sort of nestled in his mind. So at the beginning, it was almost like there was a little wellspring of stories that he wanted to tell. And then as time went on, I think, and his storytelling, the Vinyl Cafe universe grew.

I think then he was creating from sometimes from whole cloth narratives and plots and things like that. And as you said, as the characters became more fleshed out, there were more and more possibilities, there were more and more directions to go. So I think there was more to-ing and fro-ing, actually, as time went on. Yeah. One of the things that I, it's been really interesting going back and revisiting some of, like, these stories are, same way it must feel for you, like, these are stories that I heard told, doesn't, like, some, sometimes a hundred times, right? Like some of these stories, I have heard the audio of them a hundred times. And I have been so surprised at the re-listening,

at how I'm able to hear things that, like, embarrassingly, I missed the first 98 times or something. So, yeah, sometimes in kind of, as I said, embarrassing ways, but sometimes in interesting ways. So when I, so I was not, as you know, Meg, but people at home may not know, I was not, I didn't start on the show until 2003. So it'd been on the air, started as a summer replacement show in 94, but it'd been on the air and it's Sunday time slot for, I guess, six years when I started on the show. So I wasn't around for those early, those early stories. But of course, I heard them many times. And when I re-listen to them now,

what strikes me about them, they are in some ways, like from a narrative perspective, not as well-crafted. I think Stuart became a better writer. Like they weren't as well-crafted. Yeah. And there was maybe a bit less going on.

However, you don't, you know, I've never talked about this before, so I'll see if it rings true, but in a weird way they seem more him, like the Stuart that was my friend and your friend, like a bit more of him in it, in the telling of them, like even just the way he delivered

them in his voice, but also in the things that he's shining the light on. like, you know, how his sense of humor was, like, I'm not gonna say it's dark, because it wasn't dark, but there was a bit of like, there was a bit more of an edge to his sense of humor in real life than there was on the radio show. And so you can see that a bit, like, I'm thinking about Chopsy, you know, that whole, that whole storyline. And, and, you know, some of the like, the humor in it, which is, which is, which is a bit like, again, not dark,

but just has a bit of an edge to it. And a lot of those early stories would, they would, you know, they'd have a narrative structure, but they'd pull off, you know, if they were a train, they would know where the train was departing from and they would, you know, and you'd have a sense of where it was, its end destination. But they'd pull over to the siding more often. They would often like pull right over to the siding and then tell a full and complete story. So they'd have like these little stories within a story. And listening to you talk about that process at the beginning and how they, I love the image of him carrying those stories along. It makes me think they were often assembled with these bits and pieces that he was almost like pieces of paper he was carrying around in his pocket. And he'd be like, oh, I'll take this piece of paper out and

fit it into this story, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, came from all of his journalistic background. And I think he was always just sort of making notes in his head. And so at the beginning, there was a lot of loose material that he was sort of drawing from, you know. What's your favorite memory from your days of working with Stuart and on the show? I really, you know, when I think back to that, I can't really have, I don't have a simple answer. I have two things to say. One, I think it would just be the aggregation of all those wonderful phone calls. The, you know, the,ation of all those wonderful phone calls.

We'd never got off the phone. I don't – These would be hours long. Yes. Like I'm not talking to people at home. And the other funny thing now that I'm thinking about it, it's just like it's funny how when you – because I walked into this situation. You guys already had it. So I was new and I – it wasn't establishing itself. It was firmly established.

So I didn't question it. But now that I'm talking – like now that we're talking about it, it's bizarre. You also didn't live that far apart, but you guys talked. Yeah, we never saw each other. You never saw each other, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now that I think about it, it's ridiculously bizarre. There were periods where you guys were living probably like a five-minute car ride from each other, but you never walked over.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you'd have these elaborate, like elaborate, like, we're talking hours. These conversations would be hours long. And, you know, we'd be making ourselves lunch in the middle of it or going to, you know, like, whatever. We'd be doing our little cleaning up around the kitchen. And there was always a million things going on at Stuart's house, eh? Yeah.

Like, oh, God, it used to. Like, oh, hold on. Jason from FedEx is here. Oh, hold on. I'm just going to make tea. Oh, God, no. It's overflowing. Like, there'd just be, like.

Yeah. It's just going to make tea. Oh, God, no. It's overflowing. Like, there'd just be like, it's just total chaos. But we, you know, I mean, there was all, I don't know that there was ever a time when we got off the phone where we hadn't been laughing. We hadn't found something to laugh about. So, those, that, I mean, really, that's just my best memory. Yeah, exactly. So, what do you think, what do you think would surprise people, either about him or about the way the two of you work together? I guess, I mean, the one thing that I think, and you would have seen this, that surprised people was just how quiet he was. That he was a better listener than a talker, and particularly in large groups of people.

Stuart could kind of disappear into the wallpaper, actually. That was sort of amazing to watch. And as far as what we worked together, I think just how little ego was involved. was involved. You know, it's pretty hard to be a writer and have somebody slice and dice your material. Margaret Atwood has described being edited as falling, it's like falling face first into a threshing machine. And, you know, Stuart, well, maybe he was a masochist, but he did not seem to mind that. He had very, you know, that I think was really, I mean, Stuart, well, maybe he was a masochist, but he did not seem to mind that. He had very, you know, that I think was really, I mean, you could just, I think the other thing is that you could say whatever you wanted to him, but if he didn't agree with you, you were not going to sway him. So true.

So you were, which gave you a great deal of freedom. Yeah, there was freedom. There was a tremendous amount of freedom. You were never going to bully him into anything. No, if he didn't think it was right and he didn't feel like there was some – I don't know if that's quite right. I think it's – because he would often take notes if he – but if he felt strongly against it, he would never do it. That's what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right, right. You could convince him. You could absolutely convince him of things. I love that phrase, he kind of blended into the wallpaper. That is what I, like I think, that's exactly how I would answer that same question too. Oh, interesting. He was, because he came alive on stage, right? So I've thought so much about that since he's left. I've thought about, you know, when he was alive, I would have said he, you know, that he performed on stage, that he was, that's not what he was like in real life. Like I've said those exact words. But lately I've been wondering if it's the opposite.

Because actually if you think about it, if you think about during those two-hour phone calls that you guys had together, he was like that. He was very alive and very bombastic and, like, funny and out there, right? So I said this recently in an interview. I was giving the interview at home about this podcast. And my husband was home. And he heard me say, well, he was, you know, they asked me a similar question, like what would surprise, and I said, I told the story about how, you know, people would come backstage after the show. See, you know exactly what I'm going to say, right? And like, yeah, they'd be disappointed, right? Because like, he's out there on stage and he's like swinging his arms,

looking like a grasshopper, like he's like bouncing around and so funny. And so, and then they'd come backstage and he would be like kind of like you said, like kind of blending into the wallpaper. And I could see that disappointment is probably too strong of a word, but the surprise or something on their faces. And it got to the point where we were both very aware of that. And so he had a line where he'd say, like, can you be Stuart McLean so that became my role backstage was kind of to be the life of the party so that he could do that thing and so I told that story recently to someone and my husband overheard it and he said I don't know if that's true like he was he was so fun and I said well yeah he was fun with us like he was yeah you know and he said well that the way

you're painting it isn't quite right like I think in those situations um he said he was just he's different from you he was an introvert so he could he was he could in a weird way be he really was himself on stage and the same person he was with us but he just wasn't like that in like like at a party or in a situation where he felt, I don't know exactly what it would have been, but like not relaxed, I guess, or not comfortable. That fourth wall on stage, if it protected him and allowed him to be more vulnerable, more sort of the person he actually is in real life. I don't know. But you're right. It's surprising. But it's also that part of his personality where he would blend into the wallpaper. It's why I think it's a huge part of his process as a writer right he was he

was a listener and an observer which is why he was so accurately able to nail human nature like in these little small moments that he saw that not all of us that those of us like me who are too busy talking we don't necessarily see them because we're like you know too busy chatting watching and listening. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. He was amazing at that. Yeah. So we've talked a lot about those days. What about these days? Tell us, what are you up to? What excites you these days? What are you working on? What are you interested in? I've been a freelance editor for, I'm trying to think of how long, close to 20 years at least. But for the last six years, I've been doing my, I've been ghostwriting, actually.

And the last four projects I've done are people's memoirs. It's an interesting evolution because now I'm telling other people's stories. Tell me about that. What's the hardest part of that? What's the hardest part of that? What's the hardest part of that? I think, I mean, it's interesting because I do think, you know, being a ghostwriter flows quite naturally from being an editor because you're always trying to help people tell their own stories.

It's not your book. It's not your story. And so one of the big challenges of being a ghostwriter is to give people the book that they want to tell the story the way they want to tell it, not the way you would tell it if it were your story. And that does hem you in, in a lot of ways. It creates a lot of restrictions. On the other hand, it's a lot of fun to figure out how to make a compelling story given those kinds of restrictions, whether it's their point of view or the way they've responded to things that was not the way you would respond to things. Anyhow, it's... It's like a puzzle. Yeah, yeah. So I can see the appeal. Yeah, and it's fun to try and get inside somebody's head

and sort of understand and find the voice that's going to tell the story. All right, well, before I let you go, you know I have to ask, what happened... I should stop right here and say, if you haven't listened to all the podcasts, you may not know what we're talking about. But I don't know what episode it was. Maybe episode three, I think. Yeah. There's an episode called Mistakes. And one of the stories

in that episode is about Dave accidentally taking his dog's medication. And that was inspired by something that happened to Meg, where she accidentally took her cat dog's medication. And that was inspired by something that happened to Meg, where she accidentally took her cat's thyroid medication. So did you, like Dave, develop a taste for it? Well, you know, the cat weighed eight pounds, and I weigh considerably more than eight pounds. So to be honest, if I hadn't had such a blazing headache, I would have realized immediately that this pill is going to have absolutely no effect on me. And, of course, it didn't. I don't know whether to be happy about that or sad.

It might have been kind of interesting to see what happens. Anyway, I am certainly happy that you were here today. So thank you so much. That was fun. Nice to see you, Meg. That was the long-suffering story editor, Meg Masters, someone who had so much to do with every single one of Stuart's stories. She started working with Stuart

even before he started the Vinyl Cafe. And I am grateful to have her here today, but also grateful to have learned so much from Meg over the years and to have had her friendships through some very difficult times in my life. I'm remembering flowers that she brought to me after a tremendously bad breakup in my sort of mid-20s, and I'm remembering how she was there for me when my own mom died and stuff.

So lovely to have you here in studio, but also to have you in my life. Same here. And for those of you listening at home, thank you for being here too. And we will be back with a brand new season of Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe in a few weeks. The first episode will drop on Friday, September 8th. Until then, thanks for listening. So long for now.