Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe - Niagara Falls

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

“He was eye level with the falls…” This week on the show, something different. We’re playing one of Stuart McLean’s most requested stories and you might be surprised to hear it is not a Dave and Morley story. This week: the amazing and moving story of Roger Woodward, the boy who went over Niagara Falls. We play new music (that’s right – music!) by Danny Michel that is inspired by this Niagara story and share Jess and Danny’s conversation about music, waterfalls, life on tour with the Vinyl Cafe (and lots more in between!)  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From the Apostrophe Podcast Network. Hello, I'm Jess Milton, and this is Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe. Welcome. We have something a little bit different for you today on the show. We're going to play you a story, maybe one of Stuart's best stories, certainly one of the most requested. But it's not a Dave and Morley story. It's a true story, and one of the very first stories I ever worked on.

And then after that, I want to play you a song, a new song that was inspired in part by this story. And we're going to talk to the person who wrote that song. It's someone whose music you probably know. In fact, I'm sure you've heard his music before. But first, story time. I first started working with Stuart in the spring of 2003. The Vinyl Cafe was growing, and as I've mentioned before, he and David Amer needed part-time help answering emails, opening listener mail, and doing research. When Stuart offered me the job I was 23 and one of his former students at what is now called Toronto Metropolitan University. I wasn't sure I wanted the job. I already had three jobs. One at the Score, a sports television station, one as an intern on

the National at CBC, and one as a bartender two nights a week at the Royal Canadian Yacht Club. But the idea of working alongside Stuart and David Amer appealed to me. I liked that it was a small team, just David and Stuart. I liked the way they worked together and it seemed fun. In fact, it kind of seemed like it wasn't work at all. In the beginning, I would show up a few days a week at Stuart's apartment on Madison Avenue in the Annex in Toronto. I soon learned that Stuart was always tossing ideas around. He would toss them up and they would land in my lap. One day he said, hey Jess, when I was a kid there was this story about a boy. He was around the same age as me and he fell into the water near Niagara Falls.

He ended up going over the falls and he lived. Can you find him? We didn't know his name. We didn't know the year. But we figured he was around the same age as Stuart and that Stuart had been somewhere around 7, 10, 15 at the time. It didn't take me long to find the story. The boy's name is Roger Woodward. He's one of very few people who have gone over Niagara Falls and lived. He's not a daredevil. He wasn't traveling in a padded barrel. He was only

seven years old, and he was wearing nothing but a bathing suit and a life jacket. This was the kid Stuart remembered. He wanted to talk to him. He wanted to ask him, what was it like? He asked me to track him down. And this became one of the very first stories that I worked on. And looking back on it now, I think it was one of the first times that Stuart and I really got each other, the first time we realized this is going to work. But first, I had to find him. We knew he was American. We knew he had been vacationing with his family in Niagara Falls, New York, but we had no idea where Roger Woodward was living now. This was more than 40 years later. So I started calling every single R. Woodward in the United

States. I chipped away at it over the summer. I sort of thought Stewart would eventually tell me to let it go. He didn't. Eventually, I located our Roger Woodward. Believe it or not, that was the easy part. He didn't want to talk about that day in 1960. He felt that his story had been lumped in with stories about daredevils, people who wanted fame. He didn't want to tell us his story. So I went back to Stuart, and I explained all of this. And I explained that I tried to get him to tell me his story, but he didn't want to. Stuart looked at me and said, try harder.

Stuart was obsessed with the idea of telling Roger Woodward's story, but he would not do it without Roger's permission, without his involvement. He wanted Roger to tell us his story. We would be the conduit, the vessel that would get his version out into the world. Stuart understood that stories are the best way for people to understand others, their lives, their struggles, their mistakes, their victories.

And he believed that understanding others helps us understand ourselves. Stuart's stories are mostly fiction, but they feel true, or they do to me. And that's because they often started with research and interviews. He always wanted people to appreciate what something felt like, what it was like for others. So I tried harder. so I tried harder. I asked Roger if he remembered that day in 1960. He said, I remember it perfectly. I remember it like it was yesterday. So tell me your story, I said to him. I won't do anything with it without your permission. Just tell me. And he did. He told me the whole story. He told me about floating over the falls.

He told me what it felt like to think his life might come to an end. He told me what he thought about in that moment and how it felt. And then he told me with emotion about the people who came to his rescue and who cared for him afterwards. I stayed up all night typing up that story. The next morning I went to Stuart's and I read it to him. By the end, we were both in tears. I called Roger to read him the story. I told him we wanted to read it to him to make sure we got it right. And after hearing it, he agreed to let us share it on the radio. I felt victorious, but Stuart was not ready to stop there. He said, I want to read it to him live on the radio. Stuart knew there was something powerful about hearing your own story. And over the years,

I would learn why. Stuart knew that his role was to reflect. He was a mirror. He reflected others back to themselves. But he always reflected our best selves back to us. He showed us the best of us. And in doing so, he encouraged us to live up to that version of ourselves. In spring 2004, Stuart told Roger Woodward's story just the way Roger had told it to us. He told it live on stage at a Vinyl Cafe concert in Godrich, Ontario. So let's listen to that story together. Let's go back to the little livery theater in Godrich, Ontario, all the way back to 2004. all the way back to 2004. In July of 1960, Roger lived in a mobile home in Niagara Falls, New York.

His father worked at the Robert Moses Power Plant as a carpenter. His father worked in construction, so the family lived where the jobs were. We were very much a blue-collar family, Roger told me. We traveled from one place to the next, from one job to the next. Roger told me that he has a sister, and her name is Diane. Diane's birthday is July the 5th. And to celebrate her 17th birthday in 1960, a family friend, Jim Honeycutt, offered to take Roger and Diane on a boat ride. Jim had a small aluminum fishing boat.

There wasn't room for Roger's mom and dad. July 9th, the day of the ride, was a beautiful sunny day in 1960, and Jim and Roger and Deanne set off down the Niagara River from well above the falls. Deanne was in the front seat, her brother Roger behind her, Jim was in the stern, and there were two life jackets on board. Roger wore one of them. They tucked the other one under the front seat. Roger says he remembers moving peacefully down the river in that little silver boat, remembers passing under the Grand Island Bridge, which is only a mile upriver from the falls, Grand Island Bridge, which is only a mile upriver from the falls, and which many see as the safety point of no return. Roger had no idea of safety points, however. He didn't even know they were anywhere near Niagara Falls. He didn't understand that just one mile ahead, the river he was

traveling on would tumble over the falls. It would be a day later after he had followed the water over the edge before he understood that. So the little fishing boat passed under the Grand Island Bridge, the point of no return. And Roger says he remembers the faces of the people in other larger boats, says he remembers thinking they looked concerned, probably because such a little boat was about to enter such a dangerous part of the river. Ahead of them, Roger saw what looked like a small white island. It was, in fact, a shoal,

a small piece of land peeking up from beneath the water, and it was covered with literally thousands of seagulls. The little fishing boat he was in hit the shoal, and suddenly there was no thrust from the propeller. Suddenly they were in trouble, because the current was picking up and the boat was starting to drift in the current down the river toward the falls. Jim yelled to Deanne to get her life jacket on and then he took out the oars and he tried to regain control of the boat.

Waves, however, were getting big. Now the average flow of the Niagara River at Queenston is greater than the Fraser or the Columbia or the Nelson. And that little boat was hit by one wave and then by another, and then the boat flipped. Happened so quickly that Deanne had only managed to get one of the straps of her life jacket done up before she hit the water. Roger had his jacket done up, but it was an adult-sized life jacket,

and he didn't know how to swim. And his head was throbbing. Later doctors would tell him he had a concussion. And so it was in this state, Roger, seven years old, unable to swim and wearing nothing but a giant life jacket. And Deanne with her life jacket halfway done up. And Jim with nothing at all. And so it was in this state that Roger, Deanne, and Jim hit the rapids. Within seconds, they were torn apart. Within seconds, they had lost sight of each other. Roger wouldn't see his sister again for three days. He would never see Jim again.

Roger still had no idea that he was heading towards Niagara Falls, that he was tumbling through some of the most powerful rapids in the world. Roger says that this was the worst of it. He says his head was slammed against the rocks and that he was sucked under the churning water and shot back out again like he was being blown out of a whale's blowhole. He says he couldn't see anything. His sister, Deanne, knew that she had to swim with the current if she was

going to reach the shore, and that's what she started to do, battling against the strong water and the weight of her life jacket, feeling like she was swimming through peanut butter. And just when she thought she couldn't do it anymore, just when she thought that she was over, it anymore. Just when she thought that she was over, she heard a voice. It belonged to John Hayes. John was on land on Goat Island, the island which separates the American Falls from the Canadian Falls. John had seen the capsized fishing boat whisk by him, and John knew that if there was a boat, then there must be people too. That's when he spotted Deanne struggling to get to shore. Of all the people watching, John was the only one to take action. He ran down the riverbank to get himself in front of the little girl, and then over the roar of the Niagara River, Deanne heard John's

deep, strong voice calling to her. Come to me, girl, he said. Come to me. The falls were only a hundred feet away, but his voice gave her strength, and she could see John Hayes reaching out, extending his arm over the barrier that was protecting him from the water. John reaching for Deanne, and now Deanne reaching for John, and they miss because she's moving too fast. So now John has to get ahead of her again to where he thinks Deanne will be. He has to outrun the powerful water that is carrying this little girl along. He has to get in front of her, and he's running out of land himself. He runs down the bank, and he gets himself into position just feet in front of the big drop and he folds his upper body over the safety barrier and he reaches out again getting there

just as Deanne comes flying by. He reaches way down and she reaches way up and she catches his thumb. John has her now feet from the falls but all he has is her cold, wet, slippery hand, and all that she has is his thumb. And John doesn't want to pull too hard because he's worried if he pulls too hard, she might lose her grip. And he screams for help, and another man, John Katrowski, a truck driver from New Jersey, runs up and the two men reach down and they pull Deanne up by her life jacket. And the first thing Deanne did was ask about her brother. Where's my brother, she said. And that's when John looked out into the river and he saw Roger Woodward's seven-year-old head bobbing up and down like a tennis ball. John leaned down and he whispered in Deanne's ear,

and Deanne put her hands together in front of her heart. What did he tell her, I asked. He said, you need to say a little prayer for your brother. You need to say a prayer. So Deanne put her hands together in front of her heart, and she began to whisper a prayer, So Deanne put her hands together in front of her heart, and she began to whisper a prayer, praying for Roger, who was still being thrown around by the rapids. He was panicked and terrified, unable to gain control of his own body and the paralyzing force of the river. Couldn't see anything. He still had no idea where he was.

He just knew he was moving fast, just knew he was out of control. As you know, if you have been there and stood like I have and stared at the water, you know the Niagara River starts to flatten as it approaches the lip of Niagara Falls. When we spoke on the phone last week, Roger told me he remembers that moment when the rapids ended and the water smoothed off. I was finally able to catch my breath, he said. I was finally able to look around and see where I was. What Roger saw was that he was moving swiftly towards the edge of an abyss. What he remembers is looking at the shore.

A crowd had gathered on the riverbank. He could see them watching. And the panic and terror that he had been feeling just seconds before turned to anger. Why weren't they doing anything to help him? And then seven-year-old Roger Woodward looked ahead and his anger turned to submission. He was at eye level with the falls, just feet from the lip.

He still had no idea it was Niagara Falls in front of him. He couldn't see the drop. He just knew he was approaching a void, a vast area of nothingness. And that's when he realized he was going to die. What did you think about, I asked. I thought about my dog, he said, and about my parents and about my toys. Roger says he remembers wondering what his parents would do with his toys when he died. He said he didn't think of heaven or hell because he had never heard of them. And then, he says, he felt at peace. And that's when he dropped over the edge of Niagara Falls. He told me when he went over, he felt as if he were floating,

floating on a cloud of mist. He said it felt like he was suspended in the mist. There was no sensation of falling, he said. My stomach didn't jump into my throat. There was no smack when I hit the water, no rocks, no pain, just mist. Next thing he remembers is coming out of the mist and seeing the maid of the mist, Turbo. Captain that day was Clifford Keech. When a Captain Keech's deckhands thought he spotted a child in a life jacket, and though they couldn't tell if he was alive, Captain Keech decided to take a risk.

He steered the maid of the mist off course. decided to take a risk. He steered the Maid of the Mist off course. Roger was now in the current again, so Keech had to anticipate where the rough water was going to take him so that he could be there at the same time. And he was. And they threw a life ring to Roger. But he missed it.

So they tried again, but Roger was tired and bruised, and he missed it again. On the third throw, it landed right in front of the boy. And he flopped his arms around it, and they towed him up and onto the Maid of the Mist. Roger remembers the nurse who looked after him at the Niagara Falls Hospital. He even remembers her name, Eleanor Weaver. She brought him chocolate milk, he says. It was Eleanor who told Roger that he'd gone over Niagara Falls.

And yes, he's been back to the falls. A few weeks after the accident, Roger went out on the Maid of the Mist with Captain Keech. He says it was the first time he realized the magnitude of what had happened to him. He says he was terrified. A few months later, his family went to Atlantic City. It was Roger's first time on an airplane, and the pilot knew that Roger was on board, so as a special treat, the pilot flew the plane over Niagara Falls. Roger said he became hysterical. I was afraid the plane would fall, he said.

I was afraid I was going to have to do the whole thing all over again. Roger's family left the Niagara area a year after the accident. Roger didn't return to the Falls again for 10 years until he was a freshman in college. He came back with his father and he says as an adult the Falls didn't seem as big as they did when he was a child, not quite the monster he had seen years before. After college and marriage and kids, Roger ended up in Farmington Hills, Michigan and he and his family used to spend their holidays touring the Great Lakes on their 42-foot yacht. He says he didn't often think about that Saturday afternoon so many years ago,

but sometimes, sometimes when he was standing on his boat and looking down at the water of Lake Huron, he would get a pang in his stomach, knowing that the water that he was floating on would flow from Huron into the St. Clair River and from the St. Clair River into Lake St. Clair and from Lake St. Clair to Lake Erie and then eventually, inevitably, become part of the violent rapids of the Niagara River and on its way to and over the falls. Mostly, he said, it didn't bother him a bit, just sometimes. So about half an hour ago, just as we were getting ready for the show,

we decided that, you know, we should phone Roger again, and we did. And he has been on the line listening while I read that. And he's with us now, and I think... Roger, can you hear me? Hi, Stuart. How are you? I just want to say thank you. Thank you. I just want to say thank you.

I sincerely just want to say thank you. For 43 years, I've been asked to share the story, but rarely, rarely have I had an opportunity to hear it. Excuse me. I just, with all of the craziness in the world and especially around Niagara Falls, we were two children. We were victims of a tragic accident. A man lost his life.

By the grace of God, my sister and I were spared that day. And I just really thank you for capturing the spirit of the story, as I know my sister and Jim and I would want it shared. I'm sorry please excuse me it's amazing how as I listen to you share it and as I shared with you that

I do remember it like it happened yesterday and no it's not a nightmare to me today I've been blessed and all I can say is that we're just very thankful that we survived. Life is very precious. It should never be taken for granted, and it certainly should never be viewed as something to tempt God with. And as the people of Godrich know, and as the people of the Great Lakes know, the Great Lakes has its own history,

and many people have lost their lives there, but what a wonderful, beautiful place that it is. We had the opportunity, while living in Farmington Hills, to visit Godrich one summer. We decided to take a trip on Lake Huron, and we visited Godrich. We stayed at your marina. So I really feel like I'm there with you tonight. I've been there before, and you have a beautiful place. And I just wanted you to know that I had been to your community and found it to be a very beautiful place,

and we had a wonderful stay while we were there. Roger, I don't know what to say to you except God bless and thanks so much for sharing your story and for talking to us today. Thank you and God bless and I really appreciate you contacting me and again the way that you guys have captured the story. I hope you all have a wonderful concert and it's been a pleasure to be a part of it. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you. What a special guy. And what an incredible story.

I know that lots of you love that story. It's one of Stuart's most requested stories of all time. And there may be no one who loves it more than our special guest today, my friend, Danny Michelle. You've heard me talk about Danny before. He wrote the theme to this podcast, and he toured with us many times over the years. Danny has a new album out, and I'm going to play some songs off that album and talk to him about touring with Stuart. That's after this short break, so sticking around. I first met my friend Danny Michelle in Wakefield, Quebec, back in 2004. Stuart and I were in Wakefield recording a show. Danny was the musical guest that night. The show was at the legendary Black Sheep Inn in Wakefield. What a place and what a story,

but that's a backstory for another podcast. When we decided to record at the Black Sheep, I called my friend Amanda Putz, who lived in Ottawa and had a music show on CBC Radio. And I asked her, who should we book as the musical guest? I have the perfect guy, she said. And she did. Danny knocked our socks off that night. I remember sitting on the side of the stage during the show. I remember his first song. I think it was Tennessee Tobacco. during the show, I remember his first song. I think it was Tennessee Tobacco. And I remember Stuart looking over at me during that song. The look on his face, well, he didn't have to say anything. The look on his face said it all. The look said, holy crow, this guy is good. Danny, Stuart, and I went on to do dozens of shows together over the next 10 years. He was a regular musical guest on the Vinyl Cafe, and we toured all over Canada and the U.S. with him. I love him dearly, and he

understands Stuart's work deeply. So when we started this podcast, I knew who I wanted to write the theme. It was a no-brainer. I went to visit Danny over the summer. I went to spend some time with him in his studio to make music and play around with the theme for this podcast. We had so much fun. While I was there, we sat down together in his studio to talk about his new album, to talk about Stuart, and all those years touring together. We're going to hear that interview in a minute, but before I do that, I want to play you this song. This is a brand new Danny Michelle song off his new album. The album's called Ghost Town. It's a song that's inspired in part by the story that you just heard about Niagara Falls. that's inspired in part by the story that you just heard about Niagara Falls.

From his brand new album, this is my friend Danny Michelle with The Point of No Return. Lilacs and lavender, roses of white What if which I pick is wrong? I couldn't decide, then all of them died I always wait too long You were a dream there inside of my head But somewhere I burnt out a fuse Till crabgrass and thistles and weeds of all kinds Was all was left that grew your perennial

I'm a fool I stood there and watched it all burn then all in a flash I flew right past the point of no return Point of no return.

Rubies and diamonds and emeralds and pearls. Sapphires and rivers of gold. I tried to hoard them and carry them all. A weight no man should hold. Black birds and blue jays and sparrows and doves, above me a myrtle of crows. I tried to keep them here all in a cage, I wouldn't let them go. We'll be right back. The point of no return. Thank you. guitar solo Here on in Michigan, peaceful and blue Erie's superior too And further downstream, we meet in a dream Where the undertow looms

You're hypnoticalical I can't move Niagara It pulled and it turned And the faces On shore Watch me and whore That's the point of no return And the sky

Grew darker As I passed the marker A point of no return. Return. Return. Return.优优独播剧场——YoYo Television Series Exclusive Wow. That is so good. What's that line? Niagara, it pulled and it churned. That's a song off my friend Danny Michelle's new album. The song is called The Point of No Return, and I am so delighted to be sitting next to Danny today. Welcome to Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe.

Hey, Jess. It's great to be here. You know, like... 20 years ago, yeah. Yeah, like we have known each other for 20 years years and I don't know that we've ever, we've had so many conversations like this late at night in a tour bus, but we've never, um, I don't think we've ever recorded.

I don't think I've ever sat across from you in front of a microphone. Yeah. I guess you're right. Yeah. But after 20 years of working, uh, with the vinyl cafe and you and Stuart, it's so beautiful to be still in it and to be on the show. You know, you don't hear music on a lot of podcasts. And that's because, you know, there's like rights and that kind of thing. And most people just, they get their theme songs from like a digital archive that you can subscribe to.

And I didn't want to do that. I wanted, well, I wanted you to write it. I remember I called you and I asked you if you would want to do it. And you said, yes, thank God. And you said, well, what do you want it to sound like? And I was like, I don't know, just close your eyes and think about the Vinyl Cafe and see what happens. Yeah, and if I'm not mistaken, I think I gave you many options and I think the one we picked was the very first thing I played.

I sat at my Rhodes piano and just looked at it and did the dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun. It just happened. And it's a simple, very simple little melody. I texted you back and I was like, I was unequivocal it just happened. And it's, it's a simple, very simple little melody. And, and, uh, I texted you back and I was like, I was unequivocal. And I said, you know, number three, and you're back. That's the first one I did, which is always a good sign. Anyway, let's not talk about that. Let's get back to the album. So that, uh, that song, like what it, did I get that line? Right. What's that line about Niagara?

that song like what did i get that line right what's that line about niagara uh yeah niagara it pulled and it churned and the faces on shore watched me in horror past the point of no return yeah and roger says that thing like i remember when i first talked to him god that part where he's he's Right. And then at some point he is eye level with the falls. Like, can you imagine? It really rattles me in a way that, cause I, without going too much into things, I know in my personal life, someone that went over the falls. And so it's kind of like been in my,

when I go to the falls, which I like going to, it's kind of like been in my when i go to the falls which i like going to it's really heavy for me and um yeah and i guess that's why that story has always been heavy to me too we all have those moments though right like very very few of us have been eye level with niagara falls but we have moments that are our, right? With your eye level with the Niagara Falls of your life. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so. That's much what that song is about.

That song is about, it's very twisty and winding, that song. But, you know. Like all the best songs. I don't know. This record was hard to make. I hope I, I hope it's, um, it's genuine and, and it's very vulnerable for me. Um,

I want to make people feel that they're not alone and to help them laugh at things that are painful, I guess. Yeah. I was about to say, I think it's my favorite of all of your records. I'm pausing cause I really love Sunset Sea. And it's almost like it's so different than Sunset Sea, right?

Sun Sea is pretty peppy. Yeah, it's a party album. It's a party album. But this is, you know, that's what life is like, right? Like you can't have a Sunset Sea without an album like this. You really can't. Life is not all wish- wish willy like it's just not it's it's not right it's just not and and yet and the older i get the less it is

maybe or maybe like the older we get we're around the same age you and i the older we get the more we recognize that um i don't know about you, but I don't run from those emotions anymore. Like I don't, yeah, like I kind of recognize that I have to sit in that space a little bit in order to enjoy those big moments. I mean, there's a lot of songs on this record when I say that are vulnerable, they are me not running from those moments,

but like standing on the track and letting them hit me, you know, and just taking them on. Well, thank you for doing that. It must not have been easy when you say writer's block, like what? I didn't ever believe that was really, Oh, I never believed it was real. You never had it before. No. And I, it was terrifying. What like, okay, for backup, backup for those, for people listening who don't, who don't write or don't create. I, It was terrifying. Back up, back up. For people listening who don't write or don't create,

I know the feeling you're talking about of like, I call it the terror of the blank page when you sit down and it's like, what am I trying to say? Like I have nothing to say. But what's that like for you? It was just, like I said, terrifying. It was years, like three years. And then the, you know, the pandemic hit it and that, that didn't help because I thought, well, I don't want to write about this.

I, you know, I was struggling. Like I think a lot of people were. And, and I felt like, well, I don't have anything positive to say right now. So I don't want to be a wet blanket but then i was just like no just maybe be the wet blanket you know and i and so i think it's helpful for people to know they're not alone in that yeah and um so yeah this one's a this one's a bit of a heavy record so but also well first of all i should say like it's funny to hear you say that because there's some, there's some jams on this album. Like there's some songs on this album that I'm like, that feel good, that make me feel good.

But there's also sometimes, um, allowing yourself to not feel good feels good. Yeah. Right. I'm, I'm, I'm can find happiness in my sadness. If that feels... Like, I mean, sad songs don't make me sad. Me either. It makes me feel like...

Sad movies don't make me sad. They make me think hard, and they enrich my life and push me to see things in different ways, and yeah. And their texture, right? Like, life would be flat. And it's real, yeah. You cannot have those highs without those lows. Otherwise, like, that's just life, right? Life would be flat. And it's real. You cannot have those highs without those lows. Otherwise, that's just life, right?

It's like you can't. It's also like I kept doubting myself. I try to remember this is just a snapshot in time. And the second I'm finished recording, I'm not that same person anymore. These songs are the person who I was that day. And there's some dark songs about me not wanting to play music anymore. Sing it. Make that a song.

Make the song about not wanting to be a musician. But there's that thing. When you're done recording, you're a different person the next morning. And that's just who I was at that time. What a cool idea. What's your favorite song on the album? Probably the Kareem. That's my favorite song too. Can we play it? Is that okay with you? That's my favorite song by far. Of course. I'd be honored.

Is it weird to hear your own songs? Is it? Yeah. Do you listen to your own stuff? But I'll, no, God, no,

no, no. Okay. But will you do it now? Is that okay? Let's do it. All right. From my friend,

Danny Michelle's new album. This is Kareem. 🎵 And safe inside a school of fish Synchronized we swim With rudders, flaps and fins Through underwater winds We glide along through the herd like prehistoric birds

the world is so absurd you can't find the words and far below the undertow no coral gardens grow purple blue and gold.

Illumination show up above the fireflies flicker to the beat. Worlds that never meet. Things we'll never meet. Things we'll never see. All I want is what you want. But you can't give me all I need. Just to be alive and be beside your side. I'd create. You're the only one I'd dream. The Morning Light A gentle woven web Her eyes are golden red And she descends from the ledge

Along a minor chord And down the pantry door And sets out across the floor And once there was a golden dream Across the floor And once there was a golden dream in a garden so serene A cool running stream A place we'll never be All I want What you want You can't give me all I need

Is to be alive And be beside your side I'd careen You're the only one I dream. All I want is what you want. You can't give me all I need. To be alive, be beside your side, I'd careen you're the only one I dream. piano plays softly Oh my God.

That might be my favorite song you've ever written. That part at the end, it kind of reminds me of what we were just talking about. Like it wobbles, right? Like it walks the line between sadness and sweetness. And that's, I don't know, that's life. Like it's, um, sometimes I'll have in a day I'll feel,

especially on days when I'm like deeply connected to how I'm feeling, I will feel elated and joyful and boisterous. And I will also feel melancholy and, um, sadness. And I think, uh, that piano part at the end,

is that Rob Carley? Yeah, we're going to do a shout out to Rob. Mad genius. One of the greats, for sure. Yeah, he really helped on this record and was so generous. And he took this record to a new level. I had written these odd songs,

and he came in and like lit them on fire with his ideas. And that inspired me and I got in deeper and the whole record finished. And I was like, okay, now I'm ready. Let's start over. Like let's now let's make an album. That was like warmup. But yeah, the dude is a mad genius.

And, and, and besides besides that like probably like the nicest kindest dude well and fun and funny and just like every time i hang out with rob i'm like oh god i want to spend every day with you yeah um yeah but he i can feel his feelings through his playing oh that's it's yeah his playing is just for sure yeah i'm i'm so lucky to have rob in my life i love the guy i love him so much like i think that makes a difference like i think um that's one of the things we tried to so hard to do and stewart was great at this on the vinyl cafe was when you create things the space in which i don't know about you but for me the space in which i create those things is really important like i need to feel um like the word safe is so cheesy, but I need to feel I need to feel good.

Right. So like that's one of the things I tried to do on the road was create a world in which the artists like you and Stuart and everybody on the road could do their best work, which meant being a safety net a little bit, but also making it a place where people wanted to be. I mean, the memories of those days were completely that feeling of everything and fun. We really did. We did have fun. And I was so young and inexperienced. I look back, I'm like, oh, man, I didn't even know how good I had it,

you know, how lucky I was to be there. I sure do now. And I'm so grateful. What are some of your favorite memories from those times? I have a few. I forget what would happen, but somehow Stuart was talking, and we were in like a small community hall or something. And the stage curtain or something was falling.

Something was broken. Oh. And we were, you and me were trying to hold the curtain. Yeah. And we were like. No, I got it. I got it. Under a piano.

Okay. A hundred percent. It was Sudbury. And it was, yeah, I can't remember the name of that theater. It's at, it's at the university there. And there were like the mid-stage curtain. And we had a projector projecting an image onto a screen. And the curtain was starting to fall.

And you recognized it. You came over to stage left. I think it was, like, held up with, like, gaffing tape. And it was about to fall. It was about to fall, yeah. Which revealed the whole backstage. That's right. So you and me ran. No, no, Danny. It wasn't you and me. it was about to fall yeah and the which was revealed the whole backstage that's right so

you and me ran no no danny it wasn't you and me you told me and i was just taking a second to be like what am i gonna do and you were like you were like dave the character like you were like you had like this childlike impulse you just before i could tell you what to do you just leapt on the stage and held it but held it but but behind so no one could see yeah but like what you didn't think through was that now you were there and there was no way to get you out i had to hold it for the rest of the show but the problem is like you also had to go out and sing a song right so then so then i was like oh oh my god like so then i was like, oh, oh my God. So then I was like, I crept on and I held it. Oh, and I was trying to pass it off to you.

It was like a baton. It was handing it off to you. Yeah. We were in a tight position. Yeah, it was like a game of Twister. And if it fell, everyone would be like, what are those two doing backstage? Stuart would have turned around and went like what's happening behind me and we would have been hi everyone well okay i remember like it was yeah so

so i think i took over holding it and then you went out and sang a song and so then through your whole song you would have known that i was in this like uncomfortable position i could extend the song and make the song a little longer, folks. Do you remember how it ended? No. I think maybe we got to an intermission and we were free. And we were free. Yeah, yeah.

And then we had the chance. What are you laughing at? What are you laughing at? One of my favorite memories, which I have a recording of, too, that I don't think you know I have, is so good. Who it is. recording of two that I don't think you know I have is so good is we were playing somewhere and you guys had to have some type of like ad thing sent in to say promoting a show for something and so you just needed to record Stuart saying tomorrow on the show this and and uh I had my

computer with my recording software so you were were like, can you just, in this dressing room before the show, can we just record Stuart? And they'd set up catering. And Stuart was super concerned that he was going to miss dinner. He was going to miss dinner. So he was kind of like, let's just get this done. And you kept making him do it over and over. And in between takes, he would say, all the chicken's gonna be gone he's like the chicken's gonna be gone and you're like stewart just do it and you do it and you and you guys and i have the recording it's so

special to me because i listen to it and in between is him oh my god should we play it and here it is do you want to hear it i have, I do. I've never, ever heard this. This is his concern with having to do this at this time, that he would miss dinner. Hello, I'm Stuart McLean. I'm the host of The Vinyl Cafe. And I'm here to tell you that The Vinyl Cafe has moved to a new time on KUOW. You can hear us now. No, you can't.

You can now hear us. Take two. Dinner's not ready for 20 minutes. It's there. You can hear us now. No, you can't. You can now hear us. Take two. Dinner's not ready for 20 minutes. It's there. I saw it was there. You're ready. Four, three, two, one. That's now on Sundays at three. That's Sundays at three. Right here on North Country Public Radio. Hello. Okay, so when it's stories like this one, I'm going to insert a clip, right? In stories like this one. Hello, I'm Stuart McLean, host of The Vinyl Cafe.

And I'm here to tell you that we've moved our show. We've moved this show. We've moved what? I just moved, right? Hello. Hello. Hi. Hurry up. Okay, please. right hello hello hi hurry up okay please they're eating the chicken there you go oh oh my god it's so that's like every moment of my life on tour

so good so good but one of my favorite memories was um one of those classic nights where we would finish the show and then we'd get back on the bus like those were the best i always wanted to drive after a show because we always hung out together anyway right well yeah and you're kind of like you're kind of wired after a show so if you go back to a hotel you're not going to bed for a few hours anyway so let's knock a few hundred kilometers off. Yeah, exactly. Let's like get a bit. And I used to always say to people who didn't understand that, they'd be like, oh, aren't you so tired? I'm like, are you tired at 5pm when you finish work? Like that's the, that's the peak of our day. Right. So you're kind of like,

and you want to talk about it and you want to, you know, you want to like, that's a lot of our learning happened in those moments you know not only um because we would learn from the audience and we'd we'd all talk about how it felt and what we were going to change for the next night but also like a lot of the on our tour at least like a lot of the learning was like us feeling like a family and hanging out together and getting becoming like a cohesive unit i i think i don know, I'd be curious to see what you think because it's different. You know, you came in.

Oh, for sure, for sure. I mean, and I'd get on the bus after the show and we'd all like, we'd do a review ourselves. We're like, okay, well, Danny's song was okay. It was okay, so let's switch that to another song. And this was good, and that story, that was the weak spot. And we'd learn and grow as a group, working together as a team. And it was so joyful for me.

Because, you know, yeah, it was a band. I was in a band. I was in a band, you know. That night in Kingsville, this is one of my all-time favorite memories. So it was one of those nights where it was like the drive after the show was too, too long. Like we shouldn't have stayed up. So it was one of those awkward drives, you know, like three and a half hours maybe where it was like too long to stay up. But then not like I'm not going to bed for 30 minutes and then waking up.

And I always had to be like on, you know, like I had to be kind of like, no, no. Like, Danny, you're in this room. So there was no point in me going to bed for 30 minutes to wake up and check into a hotel. like on, you know, like I had to be kind of like, no, no, like Danny, you're in this room. So I, there was no point in me going to bed for 30 minutes to wake up and check into a hotel and like get everyone organized and deal with everyone's questions. So I would almost always stay up. So we were all sitting there, Tina, Lucas, you, me, Stuart. And it was just, it was just one of those nights, you know, like it wasn't the only night on tour like this. I had literally hundreds, dozens for sure of nights where you're like, oh my God, like we were just laughing.

God, we were laughing. And Stuart was just hitting it out of the park. Oh, he was. And he was like. Grand slams every night. On fire. Like he was on fire. The show was perfected.

The show was perfected. Yeah. And he was just loose, you know, like he was loose on stage and off. I don't know where you're going. You don't know where we're going? Well, Stuart got up to go to the washroom or something and you looked at me just like you and I. And you turned to me and you looked at me and you're like, we're living the good old days right now. And I, the line blew my mind. Like, I was just like, oh my God.

Every once in a while, Stuart was so good at this. And you are too. Like just marking the moment, right? Like you just marked that moment. It was like, you gave me a tattoo of that night i i just felt like holy danny like you're so right and then of course you wrote a song called the good old days which is about those moments and um you're so good at that like you're so good at we were talking earlier about the new album and how you know you wrote about stuff that's hard, but you write about, you just write about big feelings. Like you,

you're so good at capturing emotion and you captured a positive emotion in that moment by saying like, this is it, Jess, like we are, this is as good as it gets. Yeah. And I just feel, um, you're killing me here. I need some Kleenex. feel um you're killing me here i need some Kleenex well i just feel uh i'm just really glad that you are part of that i'm gonna get out of my chair and come over there i'm gonna i'm in your microphone now oh yeah thank you yeah yeah big feelings for sure so thank you for being here today and thank you for doing the thank you for creating this show and keeping this beautiful thing that people love so much uh

going look at me i have tears in my eyes we have to stop all right we're gonna stop now should we play another song if we were gonna play another song what should we play it doesn't have to be it could be from the new album or it could not be. How should we end this? We haven't even talked about it. How about don't be so hard on yourself. Yeah. That had a, it had a good, it had a good year last year. It did. Didn't it? Was this the one? Um, it was, it was, was it from the top 20, right? CBC, uh, CBC music top 20. Come on. Well, I don't want to. Yeah. Yes, it was. Yeah. No, cbz music top 20 come on well i don't yes yes it was yeah no it wasn't just there it was like the number wasn't it the number one voted like fan favorite it got more votes than any other song is that that's the one it did i think it struck a chord with people because it's kind of about

mental health and it's about taking care of yourself and i think something happened people were like they needed to hear that i think the good. Well, we need to hear it right now. And it also, I love, this is the one where you recorded at folk festivals, right? There's a bunch of people on the... Yeah. So I went to particularly the Canmar Folk Festival and Hillside in Guelph. I had the audience sing the backup parts. I taught them how to do it. And then we didn't play and we recorded the audience doing the backup parts. And then we took how to do it. And then we like didn't play and we recorded the audience doing the backup parts. And then we took those recordings and put them in the song. So the audience,

the backup singing is like 500 people from two different festivals singing the backup parts. Yeah. So cool. Yeah. So from Danny Michelle's new album, this is don't be so hard on yourself. Thanks for being here. Thank you, Jess. Love you.

Broken promises and bridges burned Don't be so hard on yourself Best intentions and lessons learned Don't be so hard on yourself You fell short and you went too far Don't be so hard on yourself Yeah, life is just a shooting star Don't be so hard on yourself Yeah, life is just a shooting star Don't be so hard on yourself

You only get one chance It's your last dance And the last call And we all fall So make it a joyride Take it worldwide And it's alright It's your life You were looking for the courage to change

Don't be so hard on yourself In a world that's broken down, brutal and strange Don't be so hard on yourself You beat yourself up for too many years Don't be so hard on yourself Lost memories and wasted tears Don't be so hard on yourself You only get one chance, it's your last dance

And the last call, give me all the balls So you can enjoy a ride, take it worldwide It's alright, it's your life We've made it this far Diolch yn fawr iawn am wylio'r fideo. We've made it this far We wait and worry, wonder and doubt Don't be so hard on yourself You tried your best and it didn't work out Don't be so hard on yourself You tried your best and it didn't work out Don't be so hard on yourself

I had to laugh cause I wanted to cry Don't be so hard on yourself And then all in a flash it goes flying by Don't be so hard on yourself You only get one chance, it's your last dance, and the last call, and we all fall. So make it a joyride, take it worldwide, and it's alright, it's your life. You only get one chance, it's your last dance, and the last call, and we all fall. So make it a joyride, take it worldwide, And it's alright, it's your life

And it's alright We've been in this world We've been in this world That was my friend Danny Michelle with a song off his brand new album. We had so much fun recording that interview. So thanks for listening. That's it for today. We'll be back here next week with two Dave and Morley stories, including this one. Pyro, said Willie.

Never seen anything like it. From a carnival or something. Big stuff. Show stuff. The problem was it was sort of past its due date. Problem was, it was sort of past its due date. But only by a decade or two, said Willie. That's next week on the podcast.

You can hear the whole story next week. And if you want to know more, you can go to our website, vinylcafe.com. And we're also on Facebook and Instagram, if that's your thing. And if you want to hear more of Danny's music, you can check him out wherever you get your music. And if you want to buy his music on vinyl or CD, head over to dannymichelle.com. That's D-A-N-N-Y-M-I-C-H-E-L dot com. Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe is part of the Apostrophe Podcast Network. Our recording engineer is the irreplicable Greg Duclute. Theme music is by my pal and today's special guest,

Danny Michelle. The show is produced by Louise Curtis and me, Jess Milton. Let's meet again next week. Until then, so long for now.