Bad Dates with Jameela Jamil - Kink (w/ Margaret Cho, Zach Noe Towers, and Gregg Araki)

Episode Date: July 27, 2026

Joel Kim Booster opens with a theory about Gen Z’s relationship to porn and doesn’t let up from there. Margaret Cho, Zach Noe Towers, and Gregg Araki join him to talk sexual muses, the etiquette of dating someone with the wrong politics, and a real conversation Joel had at a party about reverse racial dating discrimination. Along the way: Margaret’s Percy Jackson era, Zach’s queer-Asian solidarity bit, and Gregg previewing his new erotic thriller I Want Your Sex, out in theaters this month with Olivia Wilde, Cooper Hoffman, and Charli XCX, and Margaret Cho. LISTENER SUBMISSIONS: Got a relationship question or a text exchange you’re spiraling over? Leave a voicemail at [phone] or email [e-mail] — we might feature it on an upcoming episode. Subscribe to SmartLess Media on YouTube for full episodes, and follow @intimacycoordinatorshow on Instagram and TikTok for clips.   Joel Kim Booster: @ihatejoelkim · Loot Season 3 (Apple TV+), Fire Island (Hulu), Psychosexual (Netflix) Margaret Cho: @margaret_cho · Choligarchy tour; filming a new stand-up special Zach Noe Towers: @zachnoetowers · special TWINK DEATH; podcast Good Sod Gregg Araki: director of I Want Your Sex (in theaters July 31) Produced by Brian Baldinger and Anne Harris. Associate Producers are Maddie McCann and Katherine Calligori. Editor is Jacob Vaus. Executive Producers are Will Arnett, Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, Robert Cohen, Richard Korson and Bernie Kaminski.   Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Intimacy Coordinator ad-free. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of intimacy coordinator. I'm your host, Joel Kimbooster, and hey, if you're just tuning in for the very first time this week, here's the deal. I have been certified by the board of comedian podcast hosts to be your intimacy coordinator. What does that mean? It means that each week I guide my listeners and my guests through conversations that are a little bit intimate. They can be about love, relationships, sex, dating. No matter what it is, I have created a safe space for my guests to get messy,

and today's episode is no different. It's a real banger. I have Margaret Show, Gregoraki, and Zach Noey Towers in to talk about sex positivity. Is it good? Is it bad? Has it gone too far? Why is Gen Z so sex negative? Is Gen Z sex negative?

We get into it all. And also, who's your sexual muse? I cannot wait for you guys to listen to this episode, so I'm not going to talk anymore. We're just going to dive, right? in. She, my first guest, is a five-time Grammy and Emmy nominee. You've seen her in Fire Island, hacks, and all that we love. She stars as Wasp in season two of Disney's Percy Jackson and the Olympians. Her oligarchy tour is on the road through 2026 and her brand new single and music video your day just dropped. It's Margaret Cho. Hello. Did I pronounce that right? Your Deh.

Your Deh. Yeah, Zach's in it. I'm in the music video. Okay, perfect. Well, let's talk about Zach because he's just set him up. Yeah. He's a stand-up, an actor, and a writer you've seen on Netflix's Dear White People and hosting E's Nightly Pop. He was just featured on a Netflix as a joke fest shortlist showcase, and his debut special, Twink Death, is out now on YouTube via Bob the Drag Queen's Perce Studios. It's Acto Towers, everybody. And then finally, legend, a living legend with me today. I cannot believe we got him. He's a foundational figure of the new queer cinema movement, the Doom Generation, nowhere, mysterious skin.

boom and after a 12-year hiatus, he's back with a new erotic comedy thriller, I Want Your Sex, starring Olivia Wilde, Cooper Hoffman, and Charlie X-C-A-X, and I believe Margaret Cho is in so many connection points. It's in theaters July 31st. It's Gregorocky, everybody. Welcome, welcome, everybody. Thank you so much for joining me. You know, it's so cool to have two of my literal, like, heroes in the studio today, and Zach. And it's a queerer. Asian power and then the white guy. And then Zach, yeah, no, this whole episode could have been about being like queer and Asian and we could have really gotten into it.

But then we have Zach. I'll leave. Yeah. I'll leave. Yeah, it's really. I would be, I'd feel better at this point if I did leave. No. As the rule is, I'm holding everyone back.

No, I mean, listen, you might not be able to talk about, you know, the lived experience of being Asian in sexual spaces, but you can talk about sex. Yeah. You can talk about specifically any topic about sex I feel like you're safe with. You can talk about the oppression of blue-eyed, blonde-haired people. Thank you for bringing that up. In clear culture. Can I tell you?

They're literally at the back of the bus. I literally was talking to a blonde-haired, blue-eyed guy, a friend ostensibly, at a party recently. And the topic of sexual racism had come up. I didn't even bring it up, by the way. He brought it up. He brought up against like racial preferences in dating, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, and he was saying, like, I know that, like, it's very, it's difficult for you. You've spoken about your experience at length.

And he said to me, you know what, though? Like, I kind of understand where you're coming from because, you know, people really hate blondes right now. They really hate it. And I thought he was joking. I thought he was joking. But he was being completely serious where he was like, I got turned down the other day because I'm blonde hair and blue eyed. And I was like, that's crazy. And I had to say,

Did they confirm for you that it was the blonde hair and the blue eyes, or is it just your personality? And like you had no other way of... That guy's listening right now to this show. Oh, no, none of my friends listen to this podcast. I can guarantee you. I relate to that. No, yeah.

I can guarantee you. None of them care to support me. Okay, before we jump into sexual racism with Zach No Towers, I do... I want to get us warmed up a little bit. And it's a specific to I Want Your Sex, which I'm very excited to see and talk a little bit more about. I'm excited to see it too.

In your new movie. I haven't seen it yet. I'm excited to see it. Well, you were at Sundance, but you missed the premiere. I missed it. Yeah, because you were like in the... My other film. Oh, my God.

She was at her other film. Oh, my God. But everybody said that yours was the hit. You and Charlie were both at your other movies. Wow. Charlie had like three movies. She really? You know...

She's a Parker Posey. There's nothing she can't do. Yeah. She really is the sort of it girl of a film right now. Greg, in your new movie, I Want Your Sex. Sexual Muses play an important role. Who is?

Let's go around and talk about who our sexual muses are. And this is a pretty interesting question because I'm not even sure exactly what's that mean. I noodleed on it too. And ultimately I came down for me and I'll go first because I'm white. But the gym for me is like a very inspiring place. It's lots of different bodies. It's like you're kind of most vulnerable. Yes, some people are peacocking, but other people are in this zone.

And it all comes back to like being in your body. And so like I like going to the gym for that alone, just like watching that happen. Well, and then when you're at the gym too, you're working out. You're like creating, you're stimulating your testosterone. And so it's making you horny just not only like from outside stimuli but from the internal. That part. inside that. That's interesting.

I didn't even think it could be a place. I probably can't. You're stretching a bit. Because you're in your body. Yeah. You know, that's one of the things about the gym. And then the gym is very erotic because everything is there set up just to like work different parts of the body. Exactly.

I mean, and classically, cruising happens at the gym. And you're stripped down. You can you can peacock with like what type of like design or like ath leisure you're wearing. But other than that, it could be ratty teas. You know, you can't. and it's ratty. I think so, too. The nipples are fighting for their life.

But yeah, I just love that. It's a great equalizer of a space. Yeah. I can see. I totally see that. I literally am always horny at all times when I'm leaving the gym, going to the gym, thinking about it. It's all gym-related stuff.

In fact, I think mine is very similar to yours. Greg, do you want to talk a little bit about what to you being a sexual muse actually means? Since this is connected apparently to your movie. Well, I have a boring answer that's fucking. up so I'm boring into that's fucked up well I was just relating it more well I was relating it because the sexual mucing came up I didn't even write the synopsis but in the synopsis of the movie Olivia Wyle plays a kind of like I call her a cross between Robert Mapplethorpe and Madonna she's this fine artist and she's very kind of sexually provocative and then Cooper Hoffman plays her intern and they have a kind of BDSM sort of a face And so in the synopsis that I guess I don't know, the company works, I think, they talk about how she takes him on as her sexual muse. Oh, interesting. And I guess they just made that up.

Yeah. They probably consulted AI. Yeah. AI literally wrote that synopsis. Whatever 24-year-old in the marketing department who came up with that synopsis was like, I nailed that. He nailed it, sexual muse. And here we are. So, yeah.

So my boring answer was literally more related to the movie, thinking about how both of those characters, you know, when you see the movie, July 31st, both of those characters I put a lot of myself in. Like, Cooper, obviously I'm not 23, but Cooper is playing a 23-year-old. And so. Yeah, neither is he, by the way. He's literally, like, 20. I mean, he's a baby. Like, he was, like, 15 when they did licorice pizza. Jesus.

So, but yeah, so he, I kind of based his character on sort of a 23-year-old version of myself. Like, he had like pierce his ear and like we put these tattoos on his hands like my tattoo. And I sort of thought of myself being, because his character is like super kind of, you know, that age, like confused, searching, fucking up, doesn't know what he's doing. And so a lot of that part of me is sort of in his character. and then Olivia's character was weird. So I don't like it. It sounds so narcissistic and great. But her character was a lot of the things she says in the movie about sex and her art

and how why sex is such a big part of her art because sex has always been a big part of my movies. It's actually stuff I said in past interviews. So it's basically like me fucking myself kind of. I am my own muse. I am my own muse. Yeah, it's a fucked up answer, but it's not as good as the gym. That was skating. That was shady.

He ended you with that. That was good as the gym. No, I'm just, seriously not as good as the gym. No, you got my ass. That's okay. Margaret, I'm sure you've had plenty of sexual muses over the years. Yeah, well, they always sent her around Madonna in 1992. It's the sex book, but it's also the erotica album.

It's also bedtime stories to some degree. Like, she went through this thing where she was like, doing really exploratory sex. And, like, to me, that sex book is, like, so transgressive. That was one of our, that was one of our inspirations for the movie. That's what I love in the movie that there's so much of her in that. And Robert Mapplethorpe, too, you know, with, like, the bullwip coming out of his butthole, like, in the 70s, which is so transgressive and so hot and, like, alarming and exciting.

Olivia bought me a vintage Madonna sex book t-shirt. Oh, yes. That's cool. She's, like, pissing in it. Like, she's, like, pissing. She's, like, playing with pissing. There's like lesbian, like fetish sex. There's like gangbanks.

There's an age play. You know, I mean, Udo Kier's in it. Like she's fucking Big Daddy Kane and Isabella Rossellini and Naomi Campbell. And what you call it? The The Justify My Love video is what's her? Oh, Tony. Tony, yeah. Tony, who's so, he's so hot.

He's still hot. Yeah, he's so hot. And also so like, bye, queer, whatever. Yeah, he's so beautiful. But it's like playing. with all of these transgressive elements and being a full bonafide pop star. Like a full, like Taylor Swift could never.

Okay, let's calm now. Taylor Swift. You will never get the Travis and Taylor fisting video. Like this is not, this is not the realm of pop star. We hit her risting him, by the way. Yeah, so fucking lutee.

Speaking of Travis, this actually brings up my answer. Okay, her answer was the best. Yes, her answer was. We can all agree. We knew that coming in though. that Margaret's answer would be the best. Where you've got to rate all the answers. Mine is very specific, and it is

the backup dancers for Lady Gaga specifically during the Boys, Boys, Boys' performance in her early tours. Because they are all wearing football uniforms, but it is so gay. And that juxtaposition will always, always, always pique my interest

sexually. It's like, because, listen, I know it's passe, and I know that they're sort of cringe now, but a jockstrap, where it doesn't belong, or when it's actually being used for its purpose, I find, like, either way, I find very attractive. And I just love the idea of, like, putting men in these, like, hyper-masculine costumes, which they're a costume for the football players too. And then forcing them to do Lady Gaga dance moves.

It's just, like, the visual sort of juxtaposition of that is so sexy to me. It's erotic. Yeah, it's like, I love the idea of those football players being forced to be little faggots. It's the tension. It's beautiful. I agree. But again, it all goes back to Madonna because when Madonna played the Super Bowl, that was fucking crazy. Right. You know, I mean, it's like literally the center of masculine, like sports, energy and pop everything. Yeah.

And she's like coming out on a fucking, like that caravan and like doing Vogue. Like it was like the craziest thing ever. So great. So transgressive. I mean, she really is such a pioneer in so many ways. I think we had sort of experience her resurgence during Coachella, you know, really felt how much, how mother she actually is. Very exciting.

Yeah, it's interesting. I was there at the Sahiratant when she played in that fucking tour. And I saw that tour. And then, you know. And it's crazy you have not a single gray hair. To hear you talk like this and to have not a single gray hair. It's such a flex. You're like, actually, I wasn't even born yet.

Yeah. Well, it's, I'm glad you said you brought up the word transgression. Because like ostensibly today we're here to talk about kink or whatever. But, like, I think that, you know, there's going to be 10,000 episodes about that. But I think the thing I really am interested to talk about with all of you, because I think we're all connected a little bit to this is the idea of transgression. And, like, what makes sex transgressive? Is there a version of sex that isn't transgressive?

I think we all know that the answer to that is yes. And how, like, did you stumble upon? Because I, especially with you too, and I think to a lesser extent, us is your work is so tied to being. transgressive. And, like, is that something that you stumbled upon? Is that something that you very intentionally, like, decided to make sort of the centerpiece of your, like, artistic POV? Or is it something that just sort of happened because you were interested in the work you were doing? And then society said it was transgressive. I think it's both. Also, I was trying to get dates when I was younger. I just wanted to get late. And so the easiest way to do that was just to talk about sex really frankly,

and especially queer sex, you know, and like I would go to New York. In New York, there used to be, Madonna did a lot of shots at this place, the Cript and the Hellfire Club and the Meat Packing District. And they were like full-blown S&M clubs that were in the middle of the city that you could go and they were open until 4 a.m. And I would go there after I would do Carolines and like be, and then like the lesbian sex mafia, which is like this really cool sex organization for women in New York.

Oh, I thought you were just saying like. A group of women, like Carol and her friends, the lesbian sex mafia. No, they're an organization that host sex events. They host events for women play parties. They have like events for women to network and like get together. But, you know, I was around that a lot in the 90s. And so they would have these parties at like the Hellfire Club or the Crypt. Like Club Fuck in LA.

Yeah, totally. And it was just. And cinematic. We've been robbed. All of these places have been turned into targets by now. And it's just so annoying. Which I'm still having sex in, which I'm still having sex in, just not as freely as club fuck or whatever.

But that stuff to me was like just part of life. And, you know, I worked at Stormy Leather, which was a lesbian sex emporium. And I was wearing all the inventory, you know, and I'd wear them for shows. And I would wear them out after. And you would go to these sex clubs. And it was really, really beautiful and fun.

It's where we found community. Was it always a part of your sets? Was it always a part of your comedy? And did you ever feel a sense of like this is important for me to do this, even though some people are going to think it's gross? Yeah, I think it was really just because I wanted to be an adult. I wanted to be perceived as older because I started comedy so young. So I wanted to be perceived as more mature and I have sexual agency and I'm cool.

And it was a little bit of posturing like before I even understood like the gravity that you really need to have. like engagement with BDSM. Like I feel like people who are super young and do it don't really know what they're doing. Like you don't really get good at it until your 40s. Yeah. Greg, what about you? Yeah, well, I think kind of similar.

I mean, it's like, you know, coming from kind of a punk rock kind of background and also being queer and being color. And, you know, you're always kind of outside of the cold, outside of the mainstream culture anyway, which as an artist, I think is the best place to be. I just think it's such a kind of. superpower, you know, on all levels. So for me, you know, the idea of especially, you know,

when I made The Living Inn back in 92, again, before you were born. I would respect. Yeah, I know, it's like, it was like shocking to see like two gay guys like kissing or anything. So it just, you know, I looked, you know, when that movie came out, it was like people were so kind of outraged by it. It was so scandalous. And then when I, we were doing the remaster in 2008, I'm all this movie is so kind of quaint and almost like naive. You know what I mean? It's like what was because this is before, you know, Will and Grace and before Alan came out,

you know, when queer visibility was not even a thing. So just sort of coming from that background, you know, coming from the underground, it was always for me, a cool place to be. It was so much a part of my voice and so much a part of my sensibility that it was just kind of a natural. progression, I think. Yeah. And I just, you know, it was, and that's kind of what, you know, the new movie kind of is about in a way.

It's like, they talk about it in the movie where, you know, where like Gen Z doesn't have sex anymore. Yeah. And it's like, and it's actually a point in the movie where the her, Olivia's generation and Cooper's generation are colliding because she's like, what's wrong with your generation? You know, I mean, like sex is such an important part of your journey as a person. It's like all of the kind of sexual misadventures that you have and all mistakes and all the fuck-ups and all the relationships and falling in love and getting your heartbroken and being in a threesome and everything that you do as a young person, a lot of it is a mistake. A lot of it is like what was I thinking.

But it's what makes you the person you are. I mean, it's what makes me now in my 60s who I am. If I had never had those experiences, I wouldn't have made the movies I made. I wouldn't be here, you know. So you've had, I read a while ago, you've been beating this drum about Gen Z not having sex for a minute now. And it is not just you, by the way. This is a recorded phenomenon. Like this is, you know, people have been reporting on this for a while now.

And I guess, like, I want to talk a little bit more granularly about that. Now, we do not have a single person. of Gen Z within a five mile radius of the street. Thank God. So we will be speaking out of turn about their experiences. But like what do you think it is, all three of you, that has, is it because we were around making sex the centerpiece of our work for so long that now it is flipped?

Or is it like too much? Because I will say as a comic who has talked about sex for the 15 years that I've been doing stand up and was told in the beginning years by many comics not to talk about my sex life because it would not work and it would turn audiences off. And now I've been called hack before because I talk about sex too much in my act,

which is so funny. It's gone from taboo and like transgressive to now it's like, oh, it's sort of passe and it's a little bit like, you know, cringy and I really to talk about sex as much as you do. And that's coming, and I think that's connected to the Gen Zers not having sex anymore. But like, why? What happened to them?

Like, I just can't imagine not being horny at that age. I agree. I think this is also interesting because like alcohol consumption's plummeted with Gen Z. And I can only think that like pre-Tic-Tac, you know, pre-reels, when I was coming of age and having sex, it was so free range. It was like you get fucked up in a field and then you find a dude who also kind of is looking at you for a long time. and then you like fool around. Wait, where is this? Where's this feel?

Not the drug a pin. Just like where did you grow up? Oh, St. Louis, Missouri. Okay. Missouri, okay. I'm just trying to paint a picture of my head. All I can think is that maybe information is flying so much faster that younger generations are able to do research on what they would feel comfortable doing

or they can find exactly what they want by just like picking up their phone. You know, there's no, like, exploration out in the real world. Does that track? No, no, no. I think that is probably a huge part of it. I mean, everyone is at home on their phones. There are no public spaces. People aren't, like, in their teens and 20s, like, going out there and, like, interacting with people in the same way or the same, like, volume that we did, certainly.

But I guess, like, for me, too, I see a lot of it where it's, like, when they talk about sex and say, like, you're a movie. They think that it does not have anything to do with the narrative that's at play. Like it doesn't add anything to the story. It's just like to be provocative, to be pornographic. And I guess I like don't agree with that. That's so sad. Yeah. I find that to be so sad.

Yeah, because it's an integral part of everyone's story, I think. I mean, to me. And I think they would disagree. I think that they think that we've gone too far as a society and have now have now put sex, like, saying that even, I think a lot of these, you know, more puritanical Gen Ziers would take a real issue with you saying that sex is an important, integral part of our life journey. Because I think for a lot of them, they'd say it isn't. I think that they suffer from too much self-reflection.

Like, I think this is because of memes. There was so many memes that they shove them back in. Yeah, Cooper's character discusses it in the movie. It's like there's a real fear of like embarrassment. Yeah. There's a fear of making a mistake. There's a fear of being uncomfortable. Yeah.

I mean, there's so like these kids like grow up on social media, they don't want to fuck up. Right. I mean, like there's so there. And so and like I said, I hate to keep you to quoting my own movie. But you know, Olivia's character says, so your generation's all about FOMO and they don't care about missing out on like literally the sexual prime of their life. Yeah. They're going to be 50 years old ones. and go, oh, you know what?

Yeah. I should have fucking had fun when I was hot and, you know, 20. But they're scared because they're so, they're so, you know, inundated with the idea of cringe. Yeah, cringe. And there's a paper trail, too. Like, yeah. It used to be like if you had a bad sexual experience, it became lore.

Because you would tell a friend, that friend might tell someone else. Yeah. The oral tradition. Yeah. Exactly. But now it's like you could literally happen with someone. They could post it. about it.

They can blog about it. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's why kids don't drink as much either because they don't want to get shit face drunk and be like, you're throwing up at the party because someone's going to film you and you're going to be in the...

It's fear of abandon. Like, it's a fear of vulnerability. Yeah. You know, and it's a fear of like the judgment of untold numbers of people who will find out about what you do. Well, I know. I'm very, like, I'm very careful now when I hook up. But, like, if I know the person knows...

is aware of me or whatever. Like, I'm, I'm so cognizant of how I'm acting and, like, how I, like, after care and stuff like that because I don't want the, I know. And I've seen the tweets where people will be, like, just hooked up with Joel Kimbooster. It was XYZ. And it's, like, so crazy because you don't want to be someone's story. And it makes me, like, very apprehensive to hook up with anyone who is like, hey, I like your work.

It's like, well, that actually is making my dick so soft. It's like a boner killer. I would love for... If you're at A.O. Scott, then go ahead and tell me you love me my work. But if you are literally Matt from Cleveland, Ohio, I don't want to know if you know who I am. Or I will be weird. It's tricky. That's why you need to go, you know, hook up with dumb.

Dumb is huge. Dumb is huge in my community. Dumb people. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love dumb. Like hot and dumb. That's like the best.

Do you think because all. all four of us have been lightly obsessed with sex since we were young. Do you think it has made it? Wasn't everyone though in previous generations, especially Gen X? I think so, yeah. Literally when you're a teenager, like, what's the top of? Well, again, you had to find a magazine. You were designed a video.

They've had too much easy access to sex since they were young. There's no mystique. There's no curiosity. But it's not sex. It's pornography. There's a difference. I mean, I think that might be where. The lived experience of the like, you know.

Yeah. The touch and the taste and all of it. You know what I mean? It's like it's different. And that's what's such a shame because, and I honestly, you know, not to get too off topic, but I think that's why the world's so fucked up. You know what I mean? Like everyone's so miserable. Everyone's so fucked up and repressed and, you know, and then they're fucking, you know, storm in the White House.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, like, literally it's like people are so miserable and so unhappy and they just need to go out and live a little bit. Jizz. Jizz. Jizz a little. Jizz a little. Just a little bit.

That should be the new title of the show. Yeah. I guess today's topic is less king and it is more about sex positivity. So I will just ask you each. Like, you know, we've, everybody knows how much we like sex through our work. Like nobody, like, knows who Margaret Cho is. doesn't know she doesn't get down. She just has called your dick out?

Has that made it harder for you to date or does it attract people into your life that are difficult to date or how has it affected your relationships and dating life? It's definitely both, you know, but also it also attracts a kind of people who understand and then they understand to separate the art from the artist, you know, that they know that it's not necessarily who you are and what you are talking about, that there's a different story that can be told. So, I mean, I think it's just all over the place. Also, I've entered into kind of, like, since menopause, for me, sexuality has been very, it's really different. Like, you kind of go through this physical change where sex is still an exciting option and idea,

but you're not as willing to go through and do things just out of hornyness. Yeah. So there's more of an investment. I can't wait for that day to come to me. I can't wait. Yeah. Like, literally on the weekends, Like if I'm on the road, it's like, it's the end of the day, and I'm like, okay, I could either jerk off now like a king and go to bed or I could sit and scroll grinder for four hours and then jerk off in anger and shame because I just wasted four hours for nothing. Don't forget the middle ground of two and a half hours and then a trollish guy comes over and blows you and you're like, I'm going to hell. Yep. I can't make to be free of that. I cannot wait to be free of that. What actually is your dating status right now?

I have been with my boyfriend for fucking long time. I think like 12, 13 years. That is a long time. He's like nine weeks. So long, six months. But yeah, we've been together forever. Do you see eye to eye on most sex-related topics? Yes, we are very.

And this again is what, you know, again, they just keep being the gay uncle like preaching to the next generation. It's like I wouldn't have met my boyfriend and I wouldn't have had, it's like every time you have a relationship, every time you just learn so much about yourself and what works for you and what, you know, it's like all of the relationships I've had and all of the one night stands and all the stuff, it just adds up to a level of experience and maturity and really as a person figuring out what you want. More of that, less of that. Yeah, like that never that again. Yeah, like that doesn't.

And so if, you know, these people that end up like marrying their high school sweetheart or something, I don't even really even know how they live. Like it's like literally they don't have arrested development for sure. And just so. Yeah. So for me, yeah, we've been together a long time and, you know, we're just, we fit. And it's like I've had so many relationships where, you know, I always, you know, tell my friends when they're having troubles. It's like you can absolutely be in love with the wrong person. You know, I mean?

Like, it's like, but I love them. That's so scary. I love to think about it. You can absolutely be in love with the wrong person. And that's happened to me like several times. And it's like, you know, it's like that's not enough. And it's just a kind of recipe for pain and anguish. I'm going to have to.

Next. Doc, you have never really been in a serious. Thank you for bringing that out. It's because he's blonde with blue eyes. All this discrimination. I'm going to demand. Yeah. No, I've only made it a year a couple times.

Both times I knew they were not whatever it is. I'm textbook avoidant. I am of an age, I think, or maybe it's any age in gay male world where I get sex when I want it. I don't like to compromise. I have a weird schedule. I'm on the road a lot. If a guy, if it feels like he's starting to slow me down, I snip him out. And I just like, I'm really at this point of it.

like, okay, do I find someone, build a life, figure out what that's like, or do I continue my spinster fun ant path? You know, and maybe it's not a decision I have to make today, but turning 40, I was like, okay, like, what's it going to be kind of? Do you think being a professional all around 360 slut has affected those decisions for you? Or like, do you, like, does it, I mean, because I will say, I think it does sort of remove a certain portion of the population who is like decidedly against that lifestyle and does not want to engage romantically with someone who lives that lifestyle. And this is kind of back to the question that Margaret answered.

It's like projecting what kind of vibe or what you think about sex. Like I'm very open about it has gotten me guys coming into my DMs like, hey, you come thirsty slut. You know, what would you do with this if I was there? I was like, I'd put it in an incinerator. You know, like, I don't want that. But then other guys have been like, oh, I've seen your comedy. Like, no, no, no. So I really need someone who's going to be like, oh, I love that you're so bold on stage.

And I also understand that you're not horny all the time. That's just like the clips that I see go viral. So it's like, I think that guy's out there. They are. They're out there. Yeah. And I have enough faith in the universe that like what's meant for me is meant for me. And like the guy.

won't have any reservations about dating me. Yeah, about the sex positive. Yeah, like the right person. Or, you know, there are people who are not built for monogamy or relationships, and that's fucking fine. You know what I mean? It's like the thing is, it's like people just need to, like I said, be with the right person.

You know, I mean, if you're not into monogamy, you need to be with someone else who's not into monogamy or with just a bunch of people. You know what I mean? But you can't, you can't, you know, the square peg and a round whole thing. It's like if one person really wants to be monogamous and this and that, the other person kind of doesn't. It's never going to worry. Yeah, it's like yikes.

I also am deeply happy with my life. Well, that's great. That's amazing. You don't have to fit into somebody else's box. And I will say that is when I got to that place, that's when I met my husband. Oh, great. You know, like, no, truly. It was like, oh, like, I was finally able to say, without trying to trick,

the universe. I was finally able to say, and I really felt it, that I was like, I am really okay alone. My life is dope right now. I have done so much work on myself, and being alone has allowed me to do that work, and I'm good. I really don't want it. And for the first time, I am actually saying that in a real way and not as a way to trick the universe, because everybody tells you as soon as you stop looking, you get it. And then literally, like, four months later, I met my partner. Wow. So I think like, it could happen.

Okay. It can happen. So we are seeing right now in the culture, I think specifically in American culture, we're seeing a real blowback. I think there was a period where people like us were made. There was a period where I think sex positivity became a little bit more accepted and like sort of mainstream almost and less commented. You mean when trans people existed?

You were allowed to like exist in the life? Yeah, but now we're seeing like, oh, trad wives and like the Gen Z sort of push back against sex and all of these things. I guess the question is, is it our fault? Oh. Did we run our mouths too much about our sex lives on stage and put it in our work too much, put it on TV too much, that now people have sort of like fully pushed back against it? And is it our fault? I will never accept blame for anything. I don't think so.

I don't think so at all. We didn't go far enough. I think so too. We need to go farther. The whole time I've been alive, sex has kind of been this like, don't talk about that. Like, or like don't bring that up or like that's private. Like it's been very like hush, hush in most settings. I even have friends who are like very squeamish about talking about their sex life.

Yeah. I want nothing more. What boring friends. I know. I know, but I like Joel. No, but I just want nothing. more than to make sex so conversational where you can sit down or not brunch even dinner

and be like, I had the best sex last night. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, what made it so good? Oh, he was listening to me and his breath was really fresh. But instead it's like, I don't know, it's just not that. No, and the thing is, is I find it especially like taking our work out of it. Like say we're not talking about it on a podcast or in our movie or on our set. But like I had this conversation with this guy the couple weeks.

ago where we talked about, he sort of asked me about my husband and I sex life, or I asked him about him and his boyfriend's sex life. And it wasn't in a way, I wasn't trying to like set up a journalism. Oh, got your. It wasn't like that, but we were having a conversation and I was like, oh, like, who does what in your relationship? Just like sort of curiously. And then we talked about it. And he told me and I could tell that like he's not used to having this kind of conversation. And the conversation went on and he was asking about my relationship and how the mechanics of sex work and just like it is difficult to have sex with a partner that you've been with for a long time and live together. And like for him he found it so like healing, not healing, but just like freeing. Freeing to like just have a casual conversation that wasn't loaded that wasn't like sexual in a I want to like find out like if you're a top or bottom so that I can, you know.

But without an agenda. Yeah, we're not an agenda. Just sort of making it like as casual to talk about it as, you know, what we ate for dinner that day. Totally. And I find a lot of people now who, you know, before when we were coming up and, you know, in the 90s, 80s, 90s and beyond, a lot of sex negativity was rooted in like Judeo-Christian values and conservatism of that kind. it's not always now because I do feel like I meet a lot of left-leaning progressive people who are like actually like the way you use your body and like the way your relationship you have a relationship to sex is actually wrong. Disrespectful. And like and like and it does and it but it's not rooted in this like because the Bible says. Yeah. Like have any. It's like turfs. You know those like feminists who are mad at trans women because they think they're men taking away femininity. from women and they're somehow transgressing onto feminism. Yes.

You know, it's like they've gone to this puritanical place, which is like basically patriarchy, but they don't recognize it as patriarchy. It's really frustrating. It's like feminism turning into the patriarchy. Yeah, they turn themselves into the patriarchy. Like it's really, it's very frustrating. But they think that they're being feminist. So a lot of second wave feminists are guilty of that now, which is a huge problem.

I do think, and a lot of, you hit on it, like a lot of the people that I have seen, you know, talking about, you know, sex positivity has gone too far, et cetera, et cetera, et et cetera. It really is coming from a place of like, like, you know, young people aren't ready to process, you know, their sexual feelings. And so we shouldn't be showing them this stuff. And women are are always being taken advantage of and marginalized in sexual spaces. And so, like, sex positivity actually only helps, you know, men and blah, blah, blah.

And like it is these weird twistings of like progressive like ideas to sort of make it a a woke reason to be sex negative. That's chilling. It is chilling. It is really chilling. Well, it is like what Andrea Dworkin, you know, she was like saying all all pornography is rape. Which is, you know, I don't think that's true. It's a complicated conversation though, isn't it? It's so complicated because there is exploitation.

Yeah. But at the same time, there is also pleasure and there's also exploration and there's also a lot of revolution there. So, you know, it's unfair to say that all of it is rape. It's not, that's not true. That's crazy. I mean, that feels so clickbaity. Yeah. It's like so boring.

It really is. Yeah, I'm so glad I'm just the right amount of stupid that I, like, would never look for that, like, the woke sex negativity way. because that just didn't appear in my head. It is funny that Gen Z is now sort of at the forefront of this cycle because it all comes in cycles. Like, you know, we had the free love moment, then we had, you know,

Anita Bryant, and then, you know, we had all of, and then it comes back around and all these things. It is funny to me that it is Gen Z leading the charge on this current cycle that we're going through because the men of Gen Z have terminal porn brain. Like just full stop. They've been watching porn since they were so young

because they've had way more access to it than we have. And so easy and from such a young age that now I do think it is affecting the way in which the women of that generation and the men interact on a sexual level because, of course, like, porn sex is not real sex for the most part. And no matter how amateur it is, like it is not teaching you like what it is like to actually get in a space with a person. It's professional. And I do, you do read these studies of like, because like sex is, like, porn is becoming more extreme. Yeah.

That like, you know, these young men do think it's okay to just choke a woman during in bed or slap or, or, you know, and stuff that I find. It's very alluring. Yeah. But like, you know, it's all with consent and it's all like on the same level. Yeah. And I guess like that I wonder, because the other thing about them being addicted to porn for so long is like, like, it's impossible to get them to come. Oh.

You need like a gorilla gruel. Young guys, beating it in such an intense way. In such an intense way. You'll never get a grip on it hard enough. In the age of gooning, you have to have advice like that. In the age of gooning. Title of up in the age of gooning. Thank you very much.

Yeah, it is wild. And I do think that they need, in fact, sex to get weirder at a younger age. Like now at 48, like, I'm like, if we are not doing something kind of weird, I'm not into it. Like, I cannot have vanilla sex. Like, I'll have vanilla sex with my husband. Yeah, but I'm not going to have like regular sex with you, especially if it's outside of my marriage. Like, I need zip zaps up, like 45 minute improv scene. Like, give it to me.

Like, there must be a setting, you know? There has to be given circumstances for me. It has to be drama. Yeah. Yeah. And, but this is happening. with Gen Z a little bit too because I have a friend who's a colorectal surgeon who probably broke HIPAA

by telling me this but he had a 17 year old in with a fisting accident and it's like I'm of two minds where I'm sort of like the kids are all right you know and also I'm like is it great that they're engaging with that with kink at such a young age

before they have really gotten to experience the boring stuff. That's a great question. Is that, like, should I, am I being puritanical by being like, oh, 17 year olds maybe shouldn't be getting into fisting accidents? I think it's okay to try. I think that's the title. Yeah, yeah.

It's okay to explore. There's so many titles. I think it's, yeah, it's just that they've become so jaded that they've gone all the way to fisting. You know, because that's sort of like an end game for me. It's the knuckle. It's the thumb knuckle. make it in all the way.

It's really hard to get it. You need a guy to dislocate his thumb. I have a really hard time with that. So it's like, yeah, I can never get it in that. That is such an interesting thing, though. They should, like, slow release porn to, like, young people. Or it's like, this is a grainy Debbie does Dallas, whatever. Get used to this and then we'll talk.

Exactly. Oh, my God. Yes. Like, they should only have access to naked sword movies from, like, 2001 to 2009. And that's what you get. That's what you get to start off. Now you're being the woke mafia.

Yes, exactly. That's what you're policing. Policing these. This one brings me out too, though, because, like, I feel like we are all as a society losing, like, discernment or the willingness to go through and do a little bit more research to be like, is this safe?

Who's the right partner for this? You know what I mean? They're just, like, taking a clip and, like, running, you know, to go try it out. Or they're asking chat. Yeah. And just listening to... And we all know GPT is a fisting bottom. Who's like, go, girl.

I guess, like, yeah, you're right. I am being pure... I'm doing the thing that, like, I feel people are doing to me now, which is, like, sort of being like, I don't know if that's safe. I don't know if that's good for you. I don't know if that's like... Because that is what it comes back around to with people who try and, like, police the... or like when I talk about how promiscuous I am, they're like, it's not good for you. It's not good for you. Neither is vaping in every Gen Z has a vape glued to their fucking mouth.

So where do we draw the line? I don't know. I think that like sex positivity will continue. Do you think sex positivity now is still a vital thing to keep including it as a part of our art? Absolutely. I think more than ever. Yeah.

Yeah. In the light of the world we're living in, the lot of Trump and everything else and MAGA and all of it. It's like it's just, I think it's more important than ever, you know, just the idea of liberation and like fighting the oppression and the repression. Right. It's sort of everywhere. Very important. What if, and I know it's hard to do this because of what we do, but separating your work from your personal life. like how important like is it for us to be sex positive in within like our just everyday life? Our communities.

Our communities like when you're dating like right now if you, not to say you would date someone who is sex negative, but if you dated somebody who had maybe a quarter of the experience you have had sexually and has never been interested in having the amount of sexual experience you have, have had. is that somebody that you think you could be in relationship with, or does fundamentally having that experience and that point of view on sex is that fundamentally an important part of finding a partnership? No, no, because I think inherently everybody's a freak.

And finding that freak inside somebody who's not that experienced is really pleasurable. So I think that it's about like going on the journey together. And the experience matters less than the experience that you, create as partners. Yeah. You know, so I think that's really an exciting thing. So somebody else's kind of sexual experience doesn't really matter as much as they're willing to be experienced with me.

I completely agree. It's like where their mind is at. Like, it's how you can be a slut without ever having had sex. You know, it's just like how you perceive sex. Is it fun and freeing and educational or is it damning and wrong and gross, you know? So it's like, yeah, I'll take a little like, you know, 38-year-old virginal guy who's, like, really curious about learning some stuff. Like, that would be fun.

Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah. Is your boyfriend a little prude? Prude or prude or perv? I just feel like, you know, for me, it's like, it's all incompatibility. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like there's people that you're compatible with and there's people you're not. And it's just like, and, you know, politics has to do with it, sexuality, all of it.

It's like, and for me, one thing I learned was like values. I mean, like, I think values is really important. That's why I could, I don't want to make any enemies, but I could never, like, date like a Republican. Yeah. Like, I could, I can sleep with one, but it's like, because it's just like that these days. Yeah, well, there's a little bit of the. The idea of being that it's like, it's like, what are your values? You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. I've been in a few relationships where. it's like I'm like super I realized as I got older I'm like I'm just not materialistic like I'm not interested in material things you know I mean and I've been in a couple of relationships where it's all about like the fucking Gucci shoes and the this and that and the shopping and that what kind of car you drive it yeah I mean and it's just like that's so far from my experience and I didn't really know that about myself until I got older and then I suddenly you know was my boyfriend we just were on the same

level. We're both like working class, middle class, and, you know, don't care about like, like, oh, you got to get the big giant house and this and that. So it's like, I think it's all part of that. I would top a Republican. I would never bottom. I would say I would let him eat my ass. I would let a Republican and I try to fart in his mouth. That's sort of where the delineation goes. Is there like Republican Democrat porn yet? There must be. There has to be a ton. There has a Twitter porn gays who are MAGA that I know liberal guys like absolutely jerk it to. Yeah. Yeah.

Because unfortunately in the gay community, big dick, nice face is a currency that goes a long way. Even if you're a shithead. Even if you're a shithead. Final thoughts about, I guess this whole episode has loosely been about sex positivity. Where do you think we are headed as a society sexually? Do you think we are headed in the right direction, the wrong direction? Do you think it's going to get even crazier? I hope it gets great. I hope it swings. I think all of politics swings so far to the left and we get into an era of like inclusion like we've never seen and sexual liberation like we've never seen and a kind of excitement around it and a kind of acceptance around it that's really, really powerful. I feel like that's got to be coming. If we're looking at in the theory of the way the pendulum swings, we're headed in that direction.

I hope. That's hopeful. I love that. And can I go next? Because I feel like you're going to have such a better answer that. I'm just like, that's exactly. You'll awaken the thought of me. It's like if we do have universal health care, it's like, okay, people can not be afraid of maybe

getting an STI. They can go to a doctor. They can see out mental health professionals if they're feeling violence towards women. You know what I mean? And like it is part of this utopian future where if we can start taking care of each other, then sex is like the next thing that we'll be like looking forward to.

I specifically would like an 18 and up toggle on Instagram so I don't get flagged every time I post something with like the word dick, pussy vagina. You know what I mean? And that's how I would see we're going in the right direction. Yeah. It's so crazy that they're always like, you're grooming, you're grooming.

And I'm like, keep them a fucking away from me. Are you kidding? Like, I have no interest. Zero. Yeah. I don't want them to know what I'm talking about. But they want to know what you're talking. I know.

And they should figure out the nefarious, tricky ways to find that content like we all had to do to. Because sometimes the work is a part of the learning. Truly. How bad do you want to know? Exactly. Greg, do you have any final thoughts? I just, I hope Margaret's right. I mean, I just, I think that, you know, I hope we're headed towards a.

sort of utopian society because it's just getting more dystopian every day. And I feel like, you know, sex is really tied into that. Yeah. And the oppression of queer people, the erasure of trans people and non-binary people. The removal of like women's reproductive rights. Yeah. It's all in there. It's all contributing to people having less sex, I think.

Well, that was incredible. Thank you guys so much. Thank you. If you have a relationship question that only my brilliant guests and I can tackle, if you are a Gen Zier out there who was screaming in their car at the episode the entire time because we did not bother to book anybody who could speak for your generation, please leave us a voicemail at 213-379-9-8-51. That's 213-379-9-8-1.

Or email us at intimacy coordinator pod at gmail.com with your thoughts, feelings, questions, concerns. And if you have a text exchange with someone you're dating or a crush that you're You can't stop obsessing over and you have screenshots of your communication with them. We'd love to hear those two. We'd love to pick it apart. Email those screenshots to Intimacy Coordinator Pod at gmail.com with a little bit of context. And we might talk about your texts in an upcoming episode. You guys, this has been such a really fun and I think educational episode.

So I hate to end it, but we have to get you out of here. Margaret, where can the people find you and what are you doing these days? I'm on tour with my Cho-Ligarchy tour. People can find me at Margaret underscore Cho on Instagram. And tickets for my shows are available at Margaretchow.com. Check it out. You got to get it. I have to say, your new stuff is incredible.

Oh, my God. Thank you. It really is. A lot of people, a lot of comics, it crests, and then it just is a nose dive at a certain point in their career. And you have always been the fucking one. Oh, I love you. Thank you. I really love it.

Greg, where can the people find you? What are you doing these days? Uh, my, I Want Your Sex comes out July 31st. Woo! On like something I mean like 700 screen. Like an incredible number of screens. That is so crazy. Yeah.

So I'm, and it's also like coming out in France, I guess. And you can't know. There's coming out all over. So super excited about it. Can't wait. Those perverts in France are really going to get. Oh my God. They're like, boring.

Boring. Boring. Boring. Zach, where can the people find you? What are you doing these days? You can find me at Zach Noey Towers everywhere. Atzaknowetowers.com for tickets. I'm on tour.

Please come. Not to sound too thirsty, but yeah, like I would love to see anyone's smiling face at one of my shows. And I have a sex podcast called Good Morning Sodomites. Yes. And a special. And my first special just came out. It's called Twink Death. It's on YouTube for free.

Please watch, like, share, comment. So funny. Yeah. So, so funny. And yes, comment. Get that engagement. Yeah. Son.

All right. That has been another episode of intimacy coordinator. If you liked what you heard, which I didn't know you did, go to your app right now and rate and review us wherever you're listening to us. It really helps the pod out. Five stars only. I will not look at anything below that. So if you have a critique, you're screaming into the void, babe, if it's not five stars. So until next time, I'm Joel Kim Booster.

See you. Bye.