Bad Dates with Jameela Jamil - Types (w/ Symone, Adam Shankman, and Guy Branum)

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

Joel Kim Booster, Symone, Adam Shankman, and Guy Branum get into their types — and the harder problem of being someone else's. Guy explains why being attracted to him counts as a kink. Symone breaks down getting collected like Infinity Stones by men who only date Drag Race winners. Adam, talks about the gap between how he feels at work and how he feels everywhere else. Plus the katanas on every Chicago hookup's wall, Guy's lifelong pull toward redheads, and the exact movie that made each of them culturally gay. Send in your own listener questions by emailing us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at ‪[phone]‬‪. Subscribe to SmartLess Media on YouTube for full episodes, and follow @intimacycoordinatorshow on Instagram and TikTok for clips. Joel Kim Booster: @ihatejoelkim · Loot Season 3 (Apple TV+), Fire Island (Hulu), Psychosexual (Netflix) Symone: @the_symone · winner of RuPaul’s Drag Race S13; Stop! That! Train! Adam Shankman: @adamshankman · director of Stop! That! Train! (in theaters) Guy Branum: @guybranum · Bros; Platonic (Apple TV+) Produced by Brian Baldinger and Anne Harris. Associate Producers are Maddie McCann and Katherine Calligori. Edited by Jacob Vaus. Executive Producers are Will Arnett, Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, Robert Cohen, Richard Korson and Bernie Kaminski. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Bad Dates ad-free. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey folks, it's me, Joel Kimbooster here, host of intimacy coordinator, the podcast. And if you're new to the podcast here at intimacy coordinator, it's exactly what it sounds like. We get intimate about sex, love, dating, relationships, etc, etc. And today is no exception. I have three amazing guests that are all involved in the movie, Stop That Train, director Adam Shankman, and star Simone from Rupal's Drag Race as well as Guy Branham. And we're talking about types today, you guys. like to be someone's type? Is it cool? Is it, does it feel icky? Does it feel like you're a kink?

Let's jump in. We have in Fogish today the winner of Rupal's Drag Race Season 13, the Ebony Enchantress herself, founding member of the House of Avalon. You can see her in the new drag comedy. Stop that, Train. It's Simone. Hey, everybody. What's that? Looking like you're straight out of the craft right now. Oh, thank you so much. That was actually the goal. So thank you for Catching that. You nailed it. I appreciate it. And speaking of nailing it, he's the director behind the best movie musical of all time hair spray, the wedding planner, a walk to remember, and disenchanted co-owner of Offspring Entertainment,

and his new camp action comedy, you might have heard of it, Stop That Train, starring RuPaul and Simone. It's Adam Shankman, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us, sir. And last but certainly not least, he is an Emmy winning writer for hacks. You've seen him on Apple TV's Platonic and in Bros. He's the author of the memoir, My Life as a Goddess, and his new hour, Be Fruitful, is on tour now. He's also personally been my godmother in this industry

since I started in this town, and I owe him so much. He is the one, the only guy, Brandon. Hello, Joel. Joel, you are thanked in my book. You are thanked in my book. Well, I guess I'll have to learn how to read. It's going to be really difficult.

I don't got time for all that. It's so fun to have the three of you here, and it took me a while to try and figure out like what we're going to talk about because there's, and this is going to seem a little general, but as our icebreaker question today, just sort of help us figure out what in what direction of this conversation is go,

gonna go, I want you to tell me your type, but not the type you are attracted to. What are the three like hashtags on a dating app that you would use to describe yourself? Like if you are saying, how would someone else describe you as their type? Like I am a blank, blank, blank, blank, and that is who I see myself, my type as being.

Does that make sense? For me, mine would be like formerly Christian, deeply internalized shame, twunk, who is of color. So that the people who wanna fetishize me have to be into all three of those things, if that makes sense. We can also pivot back to the old question too, if this doesn't work out.

There's a very good comic in Los Angeles named Robert Yossamora who has a joke that is, if you are attracted to me, it is a kink. And I just think that that is like the deepest truth. Then if someone is attracted to me, it is a kink. I mean, for me, you're gonna have to go with bear or chub. You are going to have to go with sassy. And then after that, I feel like I'm,

you know, you're trying to pull some sort of witchcraft. You're like a political, I see you as like a, what's the thing in the Senate where they, Parliamentarian? Where they just talk to like Oh, filibuster? You are filibuster. Yeah, I do enjoy filibuster play, as you know.

Well, I think that's almost true of all of us. We'd have to dig a little bit deeper for Adam. But, like, I know that I felt for a long time, if you were attracted to me, it had to be a kink. Like, it had to be, like, you know, I was only attracting rice queens or something like that because that, like, it was literally in my 20s in Chicago, if I was asked out on a date,

guaranteed they'd have no less than two katanas on the wall guaranteed these men are prepared for war and so like I felt that I'm sure you have felt this way oh 1,000% both drag queen and either they're very into it or very against it

no fat so films also I'm like what two of three or two of three of those so like there's a little kink here too you know yeah but you ain't getting this out of wait are you identifying as fat or Asian no no fun so black so black so fake no

yeah Okay, you know, oh, shit. I'm trying to take yours. Not bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to relate to you, Joel. Yes, okay. You are, we'll, I can speak for the entire community.

We'll take you. Yeah, thank you. Okay, that would be some kind of trade. You guys can have Simulieu and we get you. Sounds great to me. It is so fun to see how shocked the children are when you explain no fats, no fads, no Asians to them today. Well, because it's all behind the curtain. Yeah.

Yeah. They still, they, like, the dog whistle for that now that I see all the time is all American. Yes. I'm like, well, all American. What that could mean. That means. The fat version is keep healthy. Like, like, keep healthy.

Or, wait, what fit? I want to fit. Yes. That is a big one. Adam, do you have anything? Like, how would you, do you think you categorize these days? Because you are an attractive white man with a career. Okay.

So without, without like delving into childhood trauma and all the shit that, you know, has sort of fomented me being. me and we were talking before the thing. I was like, shame is kind of like my signature. And like I, my self opinion is so, so very low because of some stuff that happened to me. Like the thought of somebody being attracted to me is already problematic. And like I, I know that that might sound crazy and just super low self-esteem. But it's like the things that I have that I feel like are going for me is like I am a

mature, reasonably okay-looking, funny, awesome, sometimes a guy who will reject any, you know, compliments bestowed on me. Like, I don't have, like, I don't, I don't, like being, I feel, I get really uncomfortable when I'm, like, called out out on something that somebody likes about me. I love that I'm really like a loyal. I'm a really good friend.

I'm a really good son. I'm a really good brother. How do I fetishize any of that out of? Like zip. It's like weird. If you wanted to fetishize me, you just have to be sort of into like a mature gay Jewish director who likes to laugh. Like, fuck a, dude.

Well, here's the question. And we can just dive right into this. Is like, do you, have you, do you see yourself? Are you getting the feedback from the people? Because I have already started to get this. But the guys who are like, I love daddies or older guys. Like I literally was like, I offered this guy, this 20-some-year-old, a glass of water at the end of the hookup. And he said to me, this is why I like hooking up with older guys.

You guys just care so much more. And I was like, I gave him tap water. The bar is on the ground. I gave this boy tap water. And he acted like I had saved his family. Fire, yeah. Like, look, ultimately, Adam, this is about that, like, you know, like, you got to go through beautiful dancer life, you know?

And, like, for those of us who did not, having little boys who are very appreciative of the attention of an older gentleman, there's a gentleman currently who, raised by two lesbians, and I'm just so aware that, like, oh, he's hungry for older male approval. Let me take advantage of him. The people that do express interest in me are always obviously, a lot younger. Yeah. Like, those are the ones that I've found that have expressed interest in me, although there's a whole swath where if I smile at them, they're just like, eh.

Like, yeah, and I'm like, oh, really? Now I'm that. Like, so I, you know, and because because of, I can't shake what I've done in my life in, like, the history of my career. And if somebody does know who I am or what I've done, then there's a couple reactions. There's either the, oh, can you help me? Or there's the, I don't care.

Oh. Which is really, and I'm like, I didn't ask you to care. Yeah, the performance. Yeah, the performance of like, I don't think that's any big deal. Like you didn't want. And I'm like, I'm not out here wearing a shirt with my resume on it. Like, I'm not trying to, I push all of that stuff. as deeply into the background as I possibly can.

But it is generally guys who are interested. It would be guys who are interested in older guys. And here's the question is, I guess, like, when does, how do you combat? Because this is something that I struggled with for a long time, feeling the, if they're into me, it's a fetish. Like, when does it turn to? Like, when does, like, someone's interest in you turn into, oh, this feels, actually kind of bad now.

I mean, you can always tell. I feel like you can all, like, it's immediate, because they don't hide it very well. And so, like, I always usually can sniff it out. Be like, oh, you like, it's like, it's like they're, it's not even like you're a person that's fetishizing like my skin. And so it feels weird, and it always, and I'm always like, I'm good on it, but it's usually immediate for me.

I can always tell. Like, when they're not charmed by the parts of you that you want them to be charged by, is always the danger. It's always like, it is for me, like, very unsettling if somebody's primary joy isn't that I'm being very entertaining. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If somebody is acting and is actually, and I can feel like they're actually attracted to me, it nothing switches. Like, I'll be like, okay, I'm going to accept this.

And even, like, even when my insecurities rear up, I have to talk myself out of it. Like, I'll do that and just go, like, well, maybe they actually are. Yeah. You know, and how awful of me to generate nefarious ideas in their head. No, yeah, to reject. It's funny. Like, I will often say, like, oh, that guy only wants to hook up with me because I'm gay famous. And I had a friend once who was like, and?

Like, that's a part of the rubric of attraction for some people is success. It is also who you are and what you are. Just because they might not want to be fucking you because of your face or whatever. whatever, your physical attributes. Like, it's still a totally fair thing for a person to be, like, horny for success. Right, but it's also, but it's also you segmenting parts of yourself out. You're parsing yourself out. You're creating a then diagram of yourself, which is actually unfair, again, to impose on somebody else.

Because it's sort of like, if they like you for all, it's like the things you are and you're just going like, but yeah, but it's this. And you're like, this thing is also what you are. Yeah. I guess for me, it's like when I would be dating a guy or hooking up with the guy, and then like it seemed all good and fine. And he never said anything necessarily like problematic to me about my race. But then when I would find out that all 11 of his past ex-boyfriends were Asian, it does give you a house because it's like maybe physically he's physically attracted to the features that most Asian men embody.

Like smooth skin, dark features, what have you. I guess like for me, I'm always afraid that it is a. about certain ideas or expectations that are connected with being Asian. Like these guys always expect me to be a bottom, always expecting me to be submissive, always expecting me to be XYZ. And I guess like it's hard to separate the two, because I definitely don't mind having sex with a man who's like, I think as smooth as a dolphin is the way to go. You know, like that's fine.

Ali Wong once went on a hard rant to me about how Asian men were the only men that should be taken seriously because they were like dolphins. But also, and like, I have friends, like, my friend Joey didn't realize he was gay until he moved somewhere where there were Latino men because he was in, like, Michigan, and it was, you know, just like pale boys and things didn't turn on until then. Yeah, like, it's hard. Also, to your previous point, I have often said that I'm not comfortable hooking up with someone unless I understand that they are working out their relationship with media. Like, if it is sort of like, I'm going to touch someone. someone from the other side of the screen. I know I understand what's going on,

and we can work from there. That's a turn your frown upside out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is it like for you post drag race to date now? It's weird because most, like, especially if you're on an app, I'm like, this happened to me last night,

and I just sent a picture of myself because I don't have my picture up on there, but I'll send it if I like someone. And he was like, are you famous? And to me, that it's like the big, to me, that's the biggest turnoff. to lead with that. Like, I would prefer to you almost ag ignorant. And then afterward, it would be like, okay, yeah, I know who you are, whatever. But, like, that makes me feel like you have a perception of me

because I do feel like Simone, she is me and I am her. But that's a part of me. Oh, absolutely. Like you're saying, it's a Venn diagram. So I feel like they want just that part. That makes me uncomfortable. Here's a real personal question for you. Have you been collected by any of these men out here collecting drag race

girls like infinity stone. Oh, is that real? Yeah, oh my God. Race chasers? There's a huge, an entire podcast about it. There was a guy, I'm not gonna put him on blast, but I like him, we cool, but I met him in Seattle and they were like he, his thing is like he likes to have,

you know, with the winners, specifically winners. With stuff like, oh wow. And it was cute and I was like, maybe. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can't add me. It's weird, it's weird. But yeah, that's like a whole thing. I don't know if it's the little thing now. I think that it would depend on the guy.

It only does that. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, you're like, no, no, no. Oh, I don't really know. Like, why not? Sure. It is that thing of like, am I willing to feel fetishized if they look like Romney Malik?

You know. If it's what you want. Yeah, you know. I know, but it's still like, it makes you feel guilty when you're like, I am with this person who I'm not sure. Like, I guess like it really is. a question of like how much is

the person you're fucking respecting you? How important is that to you? And sometimes it is and sometimes it's not important. I think that I mean for me as a human being. Yeah but that would depend on if I want something to go past the fucking. Yeah, that was my question.

The question is 45 minutes after the coming do you want to be around this person? Yeah. And what's truly terrible is when you are like... Do you want a second coming? Like this is not worth it. This is not worth it. And then you see them walking down Santa Monica and you're like, I should call him. You know, it's like two weeks later, your resolve can break.

Yeah, well, because it, I think, you know, if I felt this way, especially in Chicago, like, it just felt so depressing because I was like, these are the only people that will ever want to have sex with me. And you convince yourself.

That feels like a you thing. Well, yeah, and it might be, but like, in Chicago, I was socialized by the gays there in a very specific way. Like, I didn't know I could top until I moved to New York. Like I didn't even know that was an option on the table because none of the guys that I was around in Chicago assumed or thought or desired me in that way. And it was only when I moved to New York that suddenly I was meeting all these guys who were like,

I want you to fuck me. I want you to fuck me. And I was like, oh, you do. And like it completely shifted my entire self-perception of what my type is to people because I was introduced to people who, you know, a wider swath of people. But it is like one of those things where, How helpful is it for me to be thinking about this so often? Not. Not me. It's not there. But isn't it protecting.

Aren't I protecting myself from people who are bad? I mean, yes, but also it affects your, it's like negative self-talk. You know, like, you're not. Yeah. You're harming yourself when you do that, though. And you're also making your lane much thinner than it need be. Your head can only be where it is. Like, your head can only be where it is.

and like I understand the notion of like, this is negative self-talk and all of that, but it's also like, what's true is true. What's true is true. And like, what's true is true. Your perspective in the place that you're coming from is wondering how much do these things define me, how much can I exist as an actual person

in this person's head. And like, that's gonna be a journey, you know? Like, it's a journey for all of us. Well, it's also interesting for you because you're married. Yeah, well, and that's the thing is like, Now I traffic exclusively in a recreational sex. I'm never concerned about the 45 minutes beyond at this point. It is just like I'm in Madison, Wisconsin, and what's going on, you know?

It is very much different now that I'm married. And that's the thing is, and I have a joke about it, but like... Let's be fair to Madison, though. It's throwing down with some fun and good options. Oh, no, no, no, no. That's what I'm saying. There is talent in this. Oh, yeah, I'm sure.

But like, the thing about my husband, is I was, I am the first Asian person that he is dated. And there was a weird comfort in that that like, oh, like, he likes me for me. I'm not a, I'm not a part of a pattern for him. Like, there is no, like, part of him that is fetishizing me. And so that's why, part of the reason why I was like, okay, I can date this white man because this white man is not, you know, doesn't have the katana's on the wall. And so, but then it becomes this thing of like, I don't want to feel proud of that either. You know, like, I'm the first one.

I'm the first one he ever was attracted to. It's so toxic. I won in the white division. That's what people think. People think that about me, that I am one of these, like, Asian, marginalized person of color who, like, chases after white approval. And it's like, I'm not chasing it. I happen to get it.

But it is, like, it makes it even more difficult. So I replaced one set of problems, like, oh, he's fetishizing me, he's fetishizing me with a completely different set, which is like, oh, am I betraying my entire race by being with this person? That's a hard no. But, yeah, I think that, but again, I'm, you are absolutely right in saying, like, your brain is what your brain is and you are where you are and that is how you think and everything is valid. And that's all true. However, because, but I would say, that the fact that you're questioning it makes you know, is the strongest indicator that you know you're already playing a mind game with yourself,

that you're boxing yourself in. And that kind of the quieting of that is, would be just really more relaxing as a human being. Yeah, and I should say, I'm speaking a little bit more from the headspace that I was in, like, many years ago before I met my husband while I was in Chicago. Like, I am far less, I'm much more at ease with all of these things now, especially that I am married and have no reason to care anymore. But it's coming out.

It's hard to not, like, want to address criticism based on, like, my type and, like, who I am as a type. But people are assumptive. I mean, people are going to assume what our types are. People are going to assume what my type.

People are going to assume what's smart. You know what I mean, they're generally going to be wrong. I'm wrong. By the way, I'm wrong about my own type. Like, I have, like, a weird thing where I think that I should be or are like, oh, yeah, that.

And then I have never ended up with that person. And so, ever. I am in one metric especially, very much not my husband's type. He's 6-2, and he always wanted to end up with someone taller than him, and I'm 5'9. Oh, really? And so, like, he took a risk, and it paid off. Have any of you ever taken that risk? Have you gone outside your normal sexual beaten path?

Just for sex? Or for love, too. Yeah. I mean for sex, yes, but for love, no. No. What were the disqualifiers or the outliers in terms of type that you've fucked before? Okay. Like, what's the, like, describe the people that were outside of type.

Like, what about them? Oh, I'm very, um, uh, my type is very, um, my type is very, kind of just straight down the middle. All-American. But I will say this. It's also, and this speaks to, again, childhood stuff, it's very almost toxicly masculine, like, you know, bro-y kind of Stradie McStraderson dudes who are like,

in my head when I was a teenager, when I was a young kid, what I wanted Prince Charming to be, what I wanted to be taken care of by, that person who I thought was going to get in a fight to protect me, It's like, dudes, like, and it's just, that's always where I've landed in relationships. But you've- In relationships, I've had sex out, way outside of that. So that's like, yeah.

There's room for everybody. There's room for a lot. There's room for a lot, particularly while I was using. You know, there was a lot of, there was a lot of, like, you know, if you're breathing, you know what I mean? So it's like there are some, I've had some times I'm not particularly proud of. And evening needs punctuation, Adam. You know, it's like, well, a lot of my evenings didn't have any. You know what I mean?

And that was like the sort of the problem because it was like I would back then. All commas, no period. Yeah. And sort of like using sex to avoid being sober. You know what I mean? Like I don't want to have to think. again, like, so I'll just keep, like, finding and all have... And types are to disappear.

And types start to disappear. Yeah. Having always been very, very fat, there was never, like, I was always just, like, whatever works. Like, whatever, like, because I am not a type that most people are interested in, it was sort of that, and it was interesting to have things fall into patterns. I lost my virginity to a guy who was a redhead, and then, like, and he was, like, my first person of like extended period of fucking someone.

And since then there is like a thick redhead. I am always a little bit like, is it for me? Wait, I have seen you as thick redhead before. That's so funny. Wow. That's so funny. Yeah, and it's not something that was ever sort of like a particular kind of fetishy thing that I was attracted to in like porn or anything.

But it just like came to be true. and, you know, it was nice in its way. Simone? I usually, yes, to answer your question out on both, but usually I'm attracted to people who are older than me. And so especially back home, that was pretty much the thing because guys, they were more confident and they would gave me attention. So I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.

But also like older guys. But moving here helped me realize that, like, I like guys kind of my own age. Maybe a little younger, too, a little spicy, little do I get. older I get, I look young. What are you talking about? But yeah, I definitely have gone out of my comfort zone. Also, I've gotten, I've not really dated, like honestly actually committed myself to dating. So this is kind of a new chapter for me. And figuring out and letting myself be liked, I think is a huge thing. Yeah.

Because I usually have a tendency after the 45 minutes to cut it off because I don't want to, I don't want them to see me, you know. So I'm going down this path of dating and just allowing someone to like be around. You know. Well, like, like, dating and being in relationships after your journey on drag race seems really hard and fascinating because in addition to the fact that, like, you are so gorgeous as a woman and man, but then also just being, like, such an iconic figure now within our community, like, it's got to be weird to get to know somebody. It is.

You know, you're already, you. And we've talked about this before on this podcast, but, like, the idea that, like, anything you're doing or interacting with this person could be a tweet, could be their story, could be their like, I hooked up with Simone and she was like XYZ, you know, because that happens and it's like no one wants to feel like someone's story. Especially when I first got off the show, that was like my worst fear.

I was like sending nudes or anything like that, which I mean, it doesn't really matter now. Now it doesn't matter, but that was like, yeah, your old news. Yeah, people can't even remember your side. There's like six years winters since then. Yeah. So they don't get a fuck about me.

But any good ones though? Oh, wow. The season 13 was lovely. But yeah, that was like a huge thing for me. Will they say something? Will they tweet about it? Will they send an Instagram post? Will they take a video?

Like, I mean, that's crazy to think like we're gay mess, you know? But that was a fear of mine. So that was really huge. Well, it's a little, you don't feel safe. Like, nothing's not about feeling unsafe. Like, it's bad. The sex I've had with people who are like, I'm a big fan versus the sex I've had with people

who do not know who I am is wildly different, I will say. Because oftentimes when they tell me after the hookup, I'm always like, if I'd known you knew who I was, I wouldn't have been such a fucking freak. Like, truly, I want to get as weird as possible, but I also don't want some faggot with a Twitter account

to tweet about the weird shit that we did. So it's less fun. So I guess my type is sort of obnoxiously off socials. You know, like really loud about not being on social media. Yeah, almost their personality. That is a personality. We all know that person.

Yeah, we are. They are the worst gay. They are, though. They are, like, what do you talk about? Like, mentally more healthy than we are, but also the worst. Yeah. And I don't celebrate. Most of the term, probably not interested in any of the same things.

Like, you'd probably not watch the same things. You'd probably do the same things. So it's like, where do you go? To me, there's no greater arrogance than being a gay guy who is so hot, hot, you'll move to rural Colorado and just know the good dick will come to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a level of hot gay. Yeah. That does exist. Do you think we as gay people are luckier that the gay community has been segmented so specifically into these types that are like so narrow sometimes and also quite broad at other times, but like bear, twink, you know, a wolf. water people like a label people like a let people

it makes people feel safe if they feel like they can compartmentalize you like to wish that away would be folly do you know what I mean like that's just that's not going anywhere like and so and in fact it's sort of one of those things that I you know the community sort of came to embrace

because it's like if it's going to be around we might as well like make a bit why aren't straight people like this I mean I guess they kind of are but like they don't have the fun terms. Well, to be straight, and that's really fun. Yeah.

That's one. They exist within this broad sense of normalcy, that, like, it is just sort of like, we're just people, we're making families. And, like, that is what... No shade. No shade. I am shady.

But, like, I also think that, like, we have the comfort of knowing that we're doing this for the sake of sex, and so systematizing in that way. But on the subject, as you want to say, the only time I ever went to Provincetown, I am a West Coast homosexual. I don't need to fly five hours and then take a ferry for 60-degree weather in a shitty beach. But the one time I went, oh, also I'm going to be there at the beginning of June.

Come see, be fruitful at a pea house, whatever it's called. Anyway, the point is I was there because some friends who are D.C. gays who were like, we have a house come. And we were there Fourth of July weekend. And so every person over 55, every waitress, or driver or anyone was just sort of like, why are you this week? Why are you next week? And it was just sort of like,

I was there a week before Bear Week. And there was something like sweet and objectifying about like, why are you here now? But wasn't it kind of fun because you were the, like, one of the few? So like if someone was looking for a bear, like. But were they? I don't know.

I don't know. Look, I had a good time. See? Yeah. I don't. So you answer to the, the question, they were. Hey, let me have my sadness

on the case of it. It's not all for Joel. Like, it is kind of nice, though. Actually, is it nice or is it sort of, has it circled right back around to being like almost marginalizing even more so, that we have Bear Week, that we have

these weeks dedicated to, like, specific things? Because, again, straight people don't have Bear Week. Those things. I think it's both. Like, I think you need it because, like, some people need to go and be like, oh, I'm the defarming or like, I'm a bear and I want to go out and brown my people.

That's one thing, but also, yes, it is a little marginalizing. If, like, that's all your, you know, I think you kind of need it, though. It can feel segregated at times, but then there are also things like, you know, in San Francisco, when you had Toad Hall and there was, like, a bar that was felt palpably black, but it was also on the same block

where you could be going to, like, Badlands or whatever, that's nice. You know? Yeah, it's so funny, because I think of it in such a macro way, which is, I was like, well, it's like damned if you do and damned if you don't. It's like, if we don't have those things, then it's somehow, then we're not celebrating, you know,

people don't get to individuate and feel like they have a sense of community because it's not, it's like LGBTQ, we're a really big umbrella, you know, and so I would just say that, Like, why don't we get to, it's almost like, you know, deciding, you know, I'm going to have a birthday. Like, it's like we have a space for these things like that. And if anyone is doing it, we're doing it. We're responsible for that kind of compartmentalization.

It didn't come from out there. Yeah, they're not doing it to us. That's the best thing. The best thing about being a gay man is knowing, like, we are the engineers of our own oppression. You can't blame in the way that straight people are like, oh, they're the worst. And it's like, we are the worst. And the real segregation that we need to address is the fact that at clubs, the children, the twinks are still allowed to go dance to fun music that has women's voices in it.

But once you're a grown-up adult who has done a cycle of two with steroids, you have to go into a different room and just listen to clock noise. Tribal house music. And it is insufferable. I didn't hear. That's a very good point. And I do not understand why I can't still have joy in my life or I get looked at askance. and honestly, I do not get looked at askance

by the children who are having their little fun, but it is by the gentleman my age who are like, why are you here? Get on the dance floor and dance to Mario Kart Rainbow Road Final lap music because, God forbid, we do, can we even just remix a little bit

of the voices underneath the songs? It's just, I am with you. It stopped me from going, I don't go out because of all that. I can't do it. I need a voice. I have to hear somebody. If I don't hear a melody, I'm out.

Same. Well, we've reached consensus on that. Where do you, like, where are you guys going to meet the people these days? Like, to date, like, to fall in love. I don't. And is it? I'm a non-applicable. Is it just the apps?

No, I'm not applicable. Oh, you're not on the apps. You're not on anything. I mean, I've been, but I'm not. Fair. This is why I have a neighborhood. And I really, you know, like, the people are just around. It is rich apping territory.

And, like, the sad part is, though. So frequently, I'll be on a little drive and I'll be like, oh, that's a hot person. There's a new hot person who is around. And then I will drive a little further and be like, that is Kyle. It is still just Kyle. They all are the same. How does that even happen for you? For sex, it's the apps.

Love a good grinder, love a good sniff. But if I want to like actually... Really, sniffies. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Very utilitarian. There's no one there looking for a roommate or a job. And I love that.

I love that. How do you, how do you sort of bifurk? How do you understand what you're getting into in that situation? Because it feels like very basic and, like, very... Oh, I mean, you still exchange pictures. Yeah. You can exchange pictures. It's Grindr, but it's on a map.

I literally thought. It was like, I thought I went on it once. And I used my computer. Yeah, you used to have to. It's a computer, right? It used to be. You used to be. Oh, right.

So I went on my computer. And it was that map, but it was just like a butthole, like, looking at me. Well, that's the thing is a lot of their profile pictures can be, like, just whole, just penis. And I was like, I don't, I don't, I, I, I, I, I, I, like, I, I, I, like, I, I, I, I, Which I love, because we're getting straight to the point here. And that's why I'm here. Exactly. I miss 2001.

It was a glorious age of actual communication where we used, like, electronic gayness to actually, like, make jokes and to be charming in a way that the children have lost touch with. Like, it used to be a world of epistolary novels. And now it's just, you know, it's transactions. Yeah. I'd like you, there's no like, out of curiosity, what's your favorite Fay Dunaway movie? Like, there's none of, you know. That's a great question. I mean, it's just going to be network about 70% of the time and then some mommy dearest, right?

You got something else for me? Yeah, Thomas Crown. Here's completely tough. I've never seen Thomas Crown. Shut the fuck. Apparently, the R-word scene is amazing. It's extraordinary. And we'll never know what that R-word is.

I don't know what it is. This is completely off topic, but we have the time, so I'm going to ask it. You know, I don't care. about when you realized you were attracted to men, but when did you culturally know you were a faggot? Like what? Like, you know, I asked this question to someone recently and they said it's when I rented death

becomes you from the library at six and watched it for an entire weekend nonstop. That's when I knew I was culturally. This is the last cult question that we deserve for the entire. For me, it was Zina, for sure. It was absolutely Zena. That, I was like, I am so,

into what she's doing, but not in the sex way. Yeah. Just, I found it very inspiring. Hmm. I think probably, I mean, hocus pocus. Any, or any time there was, like, a witch on scene,

like, I was obsessed. Any type of one with a power, super power was like, oh, there's something here. Because I'm not attracted to you sexually at all. And I know that you're gorgeous, but, like, I'm obsessed with, like, your aura, like, your femininity. I want to do that.

Yeah, I want to do that. Controversial. Uh-oh. The premiership of, of Margaret Thatcher. Oh, what? Please explain that. Yeah, you're gonna have a little bit more in depth.

Please explain that. A monster, yes, a diva entirely. And like, I mean, she was just. In that way. Yes, I mean, one-liners and just, like, tearing up the people around her. Didn't give a fuck. Like, you know, seven-year-old me was like Slay Queen.

Yeah, right. I mean, some of the most deranged problematic women, we love. We love. For that reason, specifically. Like no one goes into a room with Fade's on a way not to be slapped. Yeah, that's true. It's an honor. It's an honor and a privilege.

I think that it would be the, I had, okay, so this is, this is a thing that very few people actually know about anymore because they've sort of vanished into the cultural ether. But once upon a time when I was very, very young, Disney used to put out these movies that were like the Shaggy Dog, the Shaggy T.A., the computer wore tennis shoes, the strongest man of the world. there were like these fun, youthful comedies that were part of the Disney label that were all these live action fun teen youthful adventures. The most important ones were the Kurt Russell ones. Kurt Russell back then when I was a child, and I'm talking like three, four years old, I looked at him and I was like, I should go home with that person, not. There was no sexuality in my head or anything like that, but I could not keep my eyes off of him. Like, it was, like, even as a child, like, I was just like,

what's that? Like, that's good. To the larger point of the 1970s, Disney films, when I got... Six. When I got Disney Plus, first thing I watched was, we got to review Candle Shoe. And it is the gayest Jody Foster was up until that Golden Globes.

I mean, they just let her be full dyke in that movie. You know what? Actually, even like, we run to the Mickey Mouse. club like I would look at the guys like I I was I really I I I was drawn to the guys but again I just talked about it I was like there was always this sense it wasn't about it was about wanting this someone to protect me a dude to protect me it was always like these like I could I could picture being hugged by that and being held and like that and it made me feel safe and then I also was very drawn in animation early animation

Snow White, Cinerola, all that kind of stuff. The way that the dress is moved. And so that, I think, is the movement. Movement of fabric was a very, very important thing to me.

Like, I was like, I remember when I was a kid and saw Hello Dolly. Okay, how about that? And I was, like, disturbed by how Barbara Streisand's costumes didn't move enough. Like, but in,

but, like, in, then when there was, like, moving fabric, I couldn't deal with it. And see, that is what made you culturally gay as a child. Moving fabric. The movement of fabric is definitely it. Growing up in a very South Asian...

A circle skirt? Fuck me. Growing up in a very South Asian town, like seeing sorries and just being like, I need to learn to drape. How can I drape? A big one is any video game that let me play as a woman. Oh my God.

Always. It's Chun Li. It's on your blade. You know, like always had to go. Always. For the powerful woman. Like, when Fonka, Yonseh. In 007, Golden Eye

Chokes a man to death with her thighs in a sexual way. I was like, that is my type. I don't know what this is, but I like that, and I want that. To be you? I didn't. It took a long time to work out, but yeah, I wanted to be Fonkianz. I mean, who doesn't at the end of the day? But when I saw her do that, that's when I really knew a woman should be president.

I asked this question to somebody that I had just met outside of Akbar and was betrayed in the most diabolical way when I asked him, like, when was the moment you realized you were culturally gay? And this person, who I thought was a normal, like, person outside of a bar, said, oh, it was probably when my mom used to put Lady Gaga's first album on the iPad when I was eight and we danced around the house to it. And I've never felt more betrayed in my life. put Lady Gaga's

Oh no, it was born this way When my mom used to put born this way On the iPad and I danced around to it when I was eight And try and do that math Because it's upsetting The thing is is I Like I recently rewatched all seasons Of regular drag race

And like the journey from Queens who were like Yes, I had to shoplift to survive Because I was living on the streets To like my mom makes all of my outfits It is a hard journey But the thing is accepting that those little boys who had moms who played bored this way for them

still damaged. Yeah. Still have a huge amount of anger and problems and behaving as though it all gets fixed by having like a loving mom who thinks that you're fabulous is a mistake. You have to remember, like, for me, as the elder statesman in the room,

when I was young, it was bad. It wasn't medium, okay. It wasn't, we'll talk about it. It was like, it was bad. like you're not supposed to be this and you will have a terrible terrible life if you are this and you'll live in the shadows and like it'd be like that and so I understand where my stuff comes from because I mean it was but but at the same time I had this a lot of the same shit that y'all had which or I don't know if you all had it but like when I was in elementary school I got picked on I was a sissy I was this I was that like all that kind of stuff and I'd already um had had a lot of you had a lot of you had a a bunch of stuff, like, go on that had, like, kind of fucked with my head. And I ended up really, like, lacking it. I had girlfriends in high school.

Like, there was, like, all that happened. And what'd you say? Poor things. I just can't imagine how bored they were. Although, scintillating conversation. Like, the conversations were, like, unending and amazing, like that. But I, but, but, and my armor was being friends with all the hot girls on school. Oh, of course. That was like, I had

all of them, so all the guys had to be nice to be nice to be. Yeah, they had to all the guys had to be super nice to me. And so I got that because I was funny. And I used that. And so, but I didn't, you know, I came out pretty late, even though I really

came out really, really early, and then I went in. And then when I, when my parents threw me out of the closet, which they did, because I was not psychologically capable or emotionally capable of actually coming to that conclusion myself and my parents were like, okay, well,

he's about to end up in a world of her. We'd rather he'd be okay and know we love him. And that, so they were like, by the way, you're gay and I'm like, what are you talking about? What are you fucking talking about? And it was like they were telling me that I was the worst thing that I could have possibly been and they were telling me that they loved me for it.

And I went, it was a couple of years of like going super crazy. And the first time, and when I lost my virginity to a dude, it was a disaster. It was a bona fide disaster and then I had a girlfriend again because it was such a fucking disaster. And then... We don't have enough time, but I'm desperate to...

I want to know. Oh, just like I was... He stole all my money. I kept throwing up. It was like... Well, I'd had 14 black Russians because that's what drank when one is 17. That's a real gay story.

Yeah. I kept running. to the bathroom and brushing my teeth. I blacked out. I came home. He had taken all the money that my dad had given me to set up my bank account

in the city that I had moved to. It was like a... Well, but what was I running around with all of that cash on me? It was so stupid. Anyway, regardless, I was like, well, I don't like being gay at all because all I did was throw up and get robbed.

So I'm going to go back and try some pussy again. And then shortly, and then shortly, about a year later, I came back to Los Angeles, told my best friend, I was like, I think I'm gay.

And she was like, of course you're gay. What are you fucking talking about? And I was like, well, what do you mean? What am I talking about? Like, they're like, yes, you're obviously gay.

You're just now? And I was like, this is wild. And then we ended up going to, you know, partying at some older friend of theirs house who was like that and there was some hairdresser there

and the hairdresser drove me home and I had sex in my dad's driveway. I mean, I, this is, This is such a common experience, I think, for gay men, is they meet one gay person or interact with one gay person, and suddenly they're like, all gay people do is make me sick and steal my clothes. You know, like, and so I must not go back. It is, again, it goes back to that thing where it's, because there are so few of us, you meet one, and then suddenly that becomes everybody. But I also believed that being gay was going to consign me to the absolute, like, that I would be shamed. I would never know love.

My parents would throw me out. I would be struggling endlessly to survive. I was a wart on humanity. Like, I had, I was born bad by being gay. So that's the shit that was in my head. And now, of course. And listen, all of that's true, Adam. It has nothing to do with that.

That's just my personality. It has nothing to being gay. It's just me. But it's also so beautifully the great leveler that however much these ideas of like types and everything like that are like, oh, I am marginalized from the norm. And it's like, the cisest, hottest,

whiteest gay guy is still like, oh, but my head. hamstrings are so long. You know, like, everyone in that photo of 15 mussely white guys in Speedos is like a little bit sad on the inside. And when I was 23, I was like, how do I take advantage of this to break them down so that they would have sex with me? And I did.

And then as time went on, it was just sort of like, you have to love and respect, like, that everyone is on this little journey and not be so in your own journey that you can't see that from them, you know? Well, like, I mean, look at like, the. the hideousness of looks maxing now and all of that, that insanity. Like, you think that comes from like a healthy point of view? Like, you know what I mean? But also, it's our culture.

Like, it's our culture and they're stealing it. They're stealing it. Yeah. That's right. They are stealing it. Okay. To wrap things up connecting a little bit, I mean, I thought what you just said is such a beautiful way to tie the conversation.

But tell us your type, but you cannot use any physical signifiers. Only the non-tangibles. Okay. I would say funny, nerd. Funny nerd. All the physical ones. See, this is tough. Because you had a lot of physical ones.

I did. And now how does that make you feel? And now that makes you feel like the lowest form. Those are my two big ones. Nerd is in like real science, like is a chemical engineer or a, Knows X-Men. No's X-Men. Okay.

Knows X-Men. So you kind of want a dork. I do want a dork. Dork. That's the better one. I like that one. That's cuter. Dork.

Guy. Nose 85% of my references and then he's fighting with me or mocking me for the other 15% of the references and saying me for him. I love that. You want a fight? I'm a Jew.

You want a British person. No, I want a Jew. I would say somebody who has extraordinary external confidence who can walk through life as like kind of like the center of the room, you know, kind of like a light emanates with them, but is really available to talk about the broken part of them. And to be like that so that I can, you know, so that my little shamy, like, vulnerable stuff like that, I can have those conversations as well. but somebody who 100% goes out there and is like charming and charismatic is a really, really big thing for me. Like I'm alone in that.

But also, but makes me laugh. And more importantly than anything, brings out and loves my child spirit, like the child in me and is not like looking to me to be just like an anchor alt-old. Because I don't, I'm like a kid inside. Like, I still behave like a child.

I still... That youthful part of me is, like, that ain't going anywhere. So you want someone who is like very confident but still connected to their trauma and can talk about their trauma and is charming, et cetera. So you want, like,

peak Vanderpump Rules cast member. That's, that's like the best... I guess, like, at his height, Sandeval. You know, like, at his height, West Wilson. But then they always... Dark secret?

Never seen any of those shows. And again, you're better off for it. Your brain is a little. No, Scandival is the greatest story. Western literature will tell it is our Iliad. And Sierra is our Princess Die. That's right. And that is how we are ending the podcast today on that little gem.

Simone, tell the people where they can find. find you and what you're doing these days. You can find me at the underscore Simone on pretty much everything and promoting the film and getting ready to tour for summer. Yeah, check her out. Check her out live people in person. Be out in your city. That is, drag is much better when you're in the room. It's true. Guy. Guy. At Guy Branden across all social media. I'm going to Edinburgh for the fringe for all of August. Please buy your tickets now. Link and bio.

The next Richard Gad, everybody's been saying it. Adam Shankman, where can the people find you? At Adam Shankman on Instagram and whatever that links to. And then I think on, I'm not going to call it, Twitter, at Adam M. Shankman, I think. Stop that train. Here's the thing about the movie, which I can, like now I'm at a place where I can actually step away from it

and kind of look at it. You know, it's a very interesting way because, like I said before, it feels very much like hairspray in that it has it feels there's something very normal about this really weird world and somehow by making it like just feel very fun and joyful that

it feels very easy going but it's so freaking subversive because this has actually never been done before where they've had a full boat of drag queens leading a theatrical release

movie just playing characters. Just playing characters where the drag was not even a wink or a gesture or acknowledged or anything. And the comedy isn't rooted specifically in there is no... There is not a single reference to dragon the movie.

Love it. Love it. Because good, good, good, because I'm tired of it. Which is like my favorite thing you said. That's always stuck with me is you're like, you are not a drag queen, you are women playing a character. Or, you know, like you're playing a character. What I always thought was so, what I always think was so great about you guys who were the drag, the queen leads of the movie, was to watch, you know, boy you walk in, then have to turn into Simone, and then Simone have to turn into Ashley. Do you know what I mean? And so then there's like a, it's like a different layering of like then putting the performance together. and that's heroic to me

and then also like I put on drag during the moment like fuck that shit I am not a drag during the shit It is not for the week One time Nerfamage in my toe for three months Afterwards

Never again Never again I want you to live Adam and I want all my listeners and guests to live Everyone who worked on this podcast Please live And please if you liked what you heard today

If you were titillated and intrigued and challenged, then leave us a review wherever you're listening to this podcast, five stars and below, even if you have a critique, I won't read it if it's not a five-star review. So you're just going to be wasting your breath. I'm Joel Kimbooster. We will be back next week with more intimacy coordinator. Have a great rest of your life. Bye.