Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - 178: Canary Missin', with Dr. Butch Ware

Episode Date: February 4, 2026

Matt and Daniel are joined by California Green Party Gubernatorial Candidate Dr. Butch Ware to speed through Norm Finkelstein’s promise to bring a campfire’s worth of smoke to Dersh and Epstein, each of their individual honors in the field of supposed anti-semitism, and expressions of at least two of the pillars of hip hop.Please donate to Gaza Great Minds: http://gazagreatminds.org/donate/Butch Ware: https://www.butchware4gov.com/Revolutionary Rally, Butch Ware for Cali: https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/revolutionary-rally-butch-ware-for-caliNew Bad Hasbara Merch: https://estoymerchandise.com/collections/bad-hasbara-podcastSubscribe to the Patreon https://www.patreon.com/badhasbaraWhat’s The Spin playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/50JoIqCvlxL3QSNj2BsdURSkad Skasbarska playlist: http://bit.ly/skadskasbarskaSubscribe/listen to Bad Hasbara wherever you get your podcasts.Spotify https://spoti.fi/3HgpxDmApple Podcasts https://apple.co/4kizajtSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

And welcome to Bad Hasbara. The world's most moral podcast. That's right. My name is Matt Lebe. I will be your most moral co-host for this podcast. And I'm Daniel Matey. And apparently, I'm your world's other most moral co-host. Apparently, I never, ever did a podcast where apparently I wasn't the most moral.

I'm trying to do that, apparently, kid. I wonder where he is now. I thought so. I was like, is this the apparently kid from the meme? It's the apparently kid. Like 15 years ago, you know, like, you got to wonder how he's doing. O.G memes out here. You're doing old head memes for all of our old head audience, which, you know, of course,

we have a non-shocking amount of. I would say that it turned out like 17% of our audience is like Gen X. And I was like, you know what? That's not bad. Not a bad percentage. Yeah, I call them, I call them unc memes. Oh, unc memes. Unc memes.

Our good memes, too. Shout out to producer Adam Levin out here on the ones and twos. Please subscribe on all of the podcast apps that are available to you. Give us five stars. Give us reviews. Say, good, good. This is good. Tell your friends about it.

Do all of that stuff. Please. Also, subscribe to our Patreon. Patreon. Patreon.com slash badass bar. Get yourself an extra episode every week. Plus, you get these episodes. So it's a little bit early.

Plus you get, I don't know, to talk to other fans of the podcast. There's probably, oh, you get access to the Discord. So that's fun. It also boosts your experience points. If you're a Dungeons & Dragons player, boost your experience points. You get your XP up. True points and your morality points. And you get a multiplier on that shit.

That's right. It's a force multiplier. If you are a subscriber to the free feed, to the pay feed, and are on Discord. do it. And the final force multiplier is, of course, going to baddestbarter.com and getting yourself one of our weird little shirts. Enjoy, enjoy those, put them on your body, walk around, point to people, explain why there is a USB stick on your chest, and then go about your day, hoping to not get iced out by ice for wearing shirt that is against state policy. Okay. Today's episode is brought to you.

Sometimes my mind works one word at a time and I just, I don't even know where I go. I love it when you remove the articles, the indefinite, indefinite articles. I don't think you need them. I think they're a waste of time and space. Today's episode is brought to you by Gaza Great Minds. Gaza Great Minds provides safe tent classrooms and quality education to Gaza's children affected by war. The charity works against the odds. and logistical challenges to bring hope and smiles back to children's faces. If you have any money that you can part with,

please consider going to Gaza greatminds.org and giving your money to them. That is a good cause as opposed to supporting a podcast, which is not a bad cause per se, but, um, you know, certainly a, not a, it's friv. It's friv. Do people say friv? No, they don't. I just made it up.

I like that. You're trying to get frivolous. You're trying to ris up frivolous. Is that what you're doing? Yeah, yeah. All right. I like it. It could catch on.

Don't be friv. You know, don't be friv. Speaking of friv, Daniel, what's the spin? This is mad friv. This is super friv. Well, I got canaries on my mind today. For some reason. I got canaries in my mind.

So I was like, well, what songs do I have about canaries? Turns out that I've already featured both the songs in my collection about canaries. They're already on the what's the what's the, spend playlist, which you can get in the description. Canary by Liz Fair, and canary in a coal mine by the police. And I was thinking, well, what other birds shit do I have? Okay, bird shit. What other

birds songs do I have? Well, I got the birds don't sing by clips, but push a tea is not exactly feeling right to be referencing in this particular moment. Oh no, what did I miss? He was named in the... No way. I thought he died. Push a tea, no. Yeah, because, no, a few

days ago, everyone was saying, Push a Tee. no. And I was like, oh, man, we lost another one. Well, it's a different kind of RIP, I guess. Fuck. So I, you know, allegedly, allegedly. So what have I got? I got other bird stuff. And I started with particular kinds of birds. We'll move on to more general. So Marie Celeste is this really cool British folk group from

the late 60s. This is a very rare album. And they've got a song called The Swallow Song, which I think is about the bird. Okay, Matt, so don't even go there. I wasn't going to go anywhere with that. There's a song about a particular kind of bird on this album, I think you know. Purple Rain? Yeah. Let's see.

They're sweet. When a particular kind of bird feels sad. Oh, a doves cry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Come on, man. All right. I thought it was going to be, you know, that masturbation song. But is that part of, is that? That's darling Nikki, and it's not on that album.

That's right, I thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or is it? You know, I don't know. I think that one is on controversy or 1999 or one of those. Anyway, then I got, of course, the Eagles Hotel California, because that's a kind of bird. Eagles is the type of bird. I got that immediately.

Same era, fly like an eagle by the Steve Miller band. And the Nas and DJ premiere song on their new album, Light Years, that samples that song. In fact, Steve Miller band gets like a writing credit on it. That's, yeah, a lot of times how samples work now. I know. At least, at least, as Nase and Premier kept, I mean, it's not like Lord Tarek and Peter Guns were Steeley Dan stole the entire writing credit for uptown. Oh, yeah. That happened too with that Through the Wire song that Kanye did.

Yeah. The people who did the sample took the entire, the entire thing, 100%. In that case, I mean, he borrowed the entire chorus. Okay, but I feel like this whole thing where it's like, oh, so therefore they got 100% of the song. They didn't make it, come on. It's true, it's true. I guess that's David Foster.

I hope Shaka Khan got a piece. You would hope. Birdhouse and your soul by they might be giants. Cute little group. We sort of, you know, we were talking about how Peter Tosh was the based whaler. That's right. One of the spins ago. But the three little birds get some love here.

Of course, of course. Bob Harley. Johnny Mitchell, sweet bird. This is going on for way too. long sweet bird great great song off a great album uh charlie parker of course is known as bird bernard cohen bird on a wire from lion of london and finally another kind of bird is a drake and this is the one time that guy will appear on this podcast or in the what's the spin because he guested on one song with kendrick lamar believe it or not before they're beef uh what was it poetic justice yeah

free bird the good the good kid mad city oh so yeah there we go and i don't have free bird i don't have the birds bird man i don't have the birds there's a whole lot i left a lot of birds i left on the cutting you don't have band on the hunting room by wings i did wings a few weeks ago oh that's true all right well that's what's spinning so now everyone is fully contextualized as to what kind of music you could be listening to if it were canary based and the reason for that is going to become obvious very quick as daniel and i have finally gotten some press before we talk about that we need to talk about someone who has also gotten the same type of press. He is our guest today. Very excited to have him. He's a historian. He was the Green Party vice presidential candidate in 2024. Also,

he is now the Green Party candidate for Governor of California running right now. Make sure to get him on your ballot. What I mean by that is vote for him. Ladies and gentlemen and everyone else, Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Butch Ware. All power to the people, y'all. And I love the setup. I mean, you know, Birdman was the obvious choice. But again, Pusha Tee references, that co-lap between Birdman and Eclipse is one of my all-time favorites. Yeah.

So, yeah, no, thanks for having me, guys. Been looking forward to the opportunity to have this conversation. And glad to be an auspicious company because you're about to drop the story, right? So go for it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, you know, Dr. Butch, where we thank you for being on, you and I have gotten the same type of press very recently. I just found out. So you have been, of course, attacked for various positions that you have held and continue to hold regarding Palestine, regarding genocide being bad.

And you, of course, were attacked by a lot of the usual suspects, but recently, or not too, and this is maybe last year or so, by Canary Mission, who wrote Jill Stein and her running mate, Rudolph, quote, Butch, where recently celebrated October 7th and other violence against Israelis. So much for peace.

Look at that celebratory screenshot of the two of you. You guys just look exultant. Yeah, you guys, you got party hats on. So I don't know what they're referencing there. I assume it is in October of 2024, you and Dr. Jill Stein, who was your running mate, talked about the anniversary of October 7th and contextualized it from the perspective of people who are pro-Palestine.

Were the two of you, by the way, the first double-doctor ticket in history? Maybe so, although I will also say that Cornell West and Melina Abdullah are also both PhD. and they ran independently. And I'm proud to say, you know, Dr. Abdullah has become a huge supporter of my gubernatorial run as well. So, yeah. So probably not the only doctor combo, but maybe the only PhD slash medical doctor combo. Yeah. So, yeah.

Yeah, you don't see that often. But it is, it's always great to have double doctorate status. I bring up this Canary Mission profile because Daniel and I also recently got Canary Mission profile. And I just... Congratulations, guys. I'm so proud of you. I'm not even kidding about that. It feels good, though.

There is something about it where, you know, years go on for the... You know, we've done this podcast for two years. And we see, you know, all these anti-Semites of the year awards going out to all sorts of people. Many of them, not anti-Semites, some of them sort of anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitic curious. Yeah, anti-Semite curious, sure. Nowhere near as committed to the bit as we are. And I'm sure you've experienced the crushing disappointment of not being nominated, yes?

I was heartbroken, and the FOMO was intense. You know, like I really felt like I had done so much, you know, in this domain. And just to go back, so how I got canaryed. Please. I, on probably October 9th or 10th of 2023, I compared the uprising of October 7th to Nat Turner's slave rebellion. And I said that this is certainly the prelude to what will be a mass lynching of Palestinians because false rape allegations are always circulated historically to justify white supremacist lynching. So I knew what was coming. And I think that what

they were referencing in that particular instance was that on October 24th, I said, you know, like, this is the one-year anniversary of, you know, the moderate equivalent of Nat Turner Slave rebellion. And I felt like I was vindicated in that understanding and interpretation because I later found out that in a separate interview around the same time, Norm Fiegelstein had also, you know, made the exact same analogy. That was his over and over again. That was his go-to point. And he was insisting that was why he would never condemn Hamas because the white abolitionists at the time of Nat Turner said this is horrible. It's an atrocity and we fucking told you so and we will not condemn it. Yeah, Garrison said, you know, we told you so. And just to be clear, I was once interviewed,

this was before Dr. Jill called me into electoral, you know, politics. I was interviewed by Middle East Eye at one point in time. And because people, you know, kind of know my association with the autobiography of Malcolm X. It's a deeply important work for me. And I often interpret things through Malcolm's lens. I was asked, what do you think Malcolm would make of where we are since October 7? And I laughed because I don't want to put words in Malcolm's mouth.

And I said, well, I don't know. But I know how he would have answered the question, do you condemn Hamas? Yeah. And then I continued with just a simple point. And the simple point is this, is that an occupied people's right to resist is something that is up to an including armed resistance,

is something that is enshrined in international law. It's actually not a debatable point. And I went to step further to say that not only is it a right to resist, but in point of fact, it is a moral responsibility to resist. That you actually do not have the right. If people are going to barge into my house and try to harm my special needs son and my wife, I can't say I have the right to resist them, but I'm going to forego that right. It's actually a moral responsibility of occupied people to resist occupation,

violence and oppression. And so that's what got me on their list. And in November of 2023, because the Canary thing in October 24, that was like round three or four it is. In November of 2023, they wrote an open letter to Zionist wrote an open letter to the University of California, Santa Barbara, where I teach, calling me a virulent anti-Semite and asking for me to be removed. So, you know, if we don't have battle scars from speaking out against genocide, what kind of

humans are we. Yeah, I completely agree. It is, you know, I think a point of pride for a lot of us who are, you know, both activists and commentators in this space to be recognized by these people who their entire modus operandi is how can I smear someone and make them, you know, out to be an anti-Semite or make them unemployable and it's obviously evil and wrong. And usually their targets are people who do not have such an easy time getting out from under the smear. They don't have a platform. Most of the time, Canary Mission just goes after undergrads or graduate students of no particular prominence, just kids really or people. and so every, you know, drop of ink spent on someone like you or like us who at the very least

have carved out some sort of platform. We can speak back. Exactly. And I feel like it just, it's a drop of ink that goes away from someone who can't speak back. We can not only speak back, but it redounds to our benefit. Number one, in our case, because we have a podcast that's founded on just showing us. showing people what Hasbara looks like. And in so doing, I mean, yeah, it's just making fun of it.

And we almost, we don't even have to make fun of it because it makes fun of itself. Number one. And also for us, I don't know if you can relate to this, but like, finally, you said it's, you know, a point of pride, Matt. Well, it's also, but it's a point of shame if you're not. I mean, we've got Jewish parents to please. I mean, and they've been saying, like, when are you going to accomplish something, you know, like? All I'm saying is, would it kill you to be anti-stasy? semi-semit-a-the-year?

You don't write, you don't call, you don't get anti-semit of the year. Always an anti-semitism bridesmaid, exactly. And never a bride. No, I wasn't joking, you know, when I said, you know, like the disappointment was deep. But there's always next year, fellas. Like, really, you know, if we focus, if we, you know, really concentrate. Well, let's work together. Let's pull our resources.

We're here together for the next hour and a bit. Let's do it. Yeah. But for now, first and foremost, I have to, by law, show everyone these profiles because I've always waited for them to do this, but I didn't know that they were going to be so bad at it that it actually made me more proud. So here is how they open. I have mine and I have Daniels.

I'll do both of them. Matt Lieb uses his podcast, Bad Hasbara, not just to entertain, but to radicalize. first and foremost, that is a great blur. I want that to be our new slogan. That is, we don't just entertain. We radicalize, that's true. And also, thank you for calling the podcast entertaining. Radicalization tonight.

Bad-ba-b-b-b-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Yeah. Oh, dude, new theme song. Isn't it amazing, though, when they're trying to take you down and instead all they do is pump you up? I mean, I don't want to interrupt, but one of the proudest moments of my life was when the New York Times ran an attack piece on Jill. And this was their paragraph on me. They said, Ms. Stein's running mate, Butchware, a professor at University of California, and your stand and Barbara, who has studied African in Islamic history, which is hilarious. I have a PhD in one of the most widely published scholars in those fields for decades, but it's fine.

I've studied those things. Who has leaped through a book on the topic once or twice? He once read a pamphlet. Who has studied African and Islamic history has called Ms. Harris the quote, black face of white supremacy and likened Barack Obama to a house negro. I was like, they're playing my greatest hits. They're playing my greatest hits. No, the internet went crazy, but they weren't done. On October 7th, one year after the Hamas-led attacks that amounted to the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.

Oh, did it? Oh, did they? Mr. Ware recorded. No, hold on. And then Mr. Ware. So now I'm Mr. I'm not doctor anywhere. So Mr. Ware recorded a video to commemorate the one-year anniversary of the modern-day equivalent of Nat Turner's rebellion invoking the American slave revolt of 1831.

I was like, do you guys know how much work you just did for me in one paragraph? Like, you put my best shots all together. Well, come to think of it, it's like, it's reciprocal. Like I said, all we have to do is play what they say verbatim and it speaks for itself. And all they have to do is play what we say verbatim and it speaks for itself. Yeah. The truth is the truth. Exactly.

The difference is, of course, in terms of the who has motion and who doesn't, because I tell you, I was looking at just the amount of retweets and likes on their Canary Mission's page. and I was like, motionless, bro. Like, they just don't. And I think it's because they, of course, are speaking to a smaller and smaller subsection of the Zionist community. You know what I mean? Like, at this point, people are embarrassed to, I guess, like, normal liberal Zionists are

embarrassed to in any way follow these accounts because they see them as like, you know, at first they saw them as like, oh, this is good because someone's got to support Israel. And now they are slowly seeing they're in bed with these like right wing MAGA psychopaths. And they're like, but I consider myself good. I judge myself by my opposition to MAGA. And of course, not by their pro-Israel stances. But yeah, so they have no motion and it's almost, you know, it's kind of sad. I'm sorry that you haven't sufficiently triggered them.

I know. I want that for you. I wanted to. I mean, I got a few death threat DM, so I'm happy about it. Docs me, they released my home address during the presidential campaign, you know, in efforts. Yeah. It's what they do. I'll stop interrupting.

Oh, no, no. Interrupt as much as you want. Someone asked me, that's all we do here, butch. We just interrupt each other. Okay, good. Someone asked me, Daniel, are you trying to create the next Holocaust, or are you just a grifter doing this for profit? And I responded undecided.

Yeah, that's right. I saw that. I'm still working that out. I love that. So the next sentence here is that his business model relies on paywalling hate speech, charging subscribers to access anti-Israel conspiracy theories. Make hate speech free. Make hate speech free. And radicalized guess.

What's the argument here? I'm so confused. First of all, this is the erasure of our free feed. Okay. We do one for one. We have free episodes and we have paywalled episodes. This is, so we don't just do hate speech through a paywall. We also do it for free.

Secondly, it is very funny to me to be like, you know, the problem with this is that I want it free. I'm just saying there's almost an anti-Semitic stereotype in asking, in framing it this way. Podcaster monetizing hate speech, Matt Leab. And here's how they get me. Behind the microphone, he broadcasts anti-Semitic blood libel and tropes and calls for a modern American Revolution. This is them playing one of my satire videos. And I just thank you for playing my bangers, I guess.

Should I play that? Have people not seen that? Maybe I'll play it. Let's do it. Here's at least the part that they got. Here it is. People are being so judgmental of Israel for bombing Iran? Like, can you at least try to understand it from the Israeli perspective?

You've just spent the last 20 months being accused of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Day after day, you're brave men and women in uniform. They're coming home, covered in tears and blood. So much blood. So much blood. You can't even imagine how much blood. So much blood that they get used to it. They get numb to it. That they start to depend on it. They need it. More blood. More blood. So that's where they cut it off.

Oh, blood libo. Okay, well, at least there was some blood in that libel. At least I talk about blood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fair. That was some sharp, that was blood satire. Yes, blood satire, blood libo, whatever you want to call it. If I can, it's not just in tears and blood, but also don't forget women's underwear.

That's right. That's right. I mean, and that's another thing. They are, they need the women's underwear. They need to wear them. That is something that people need to understand. It's like it is hard to grow dependent on wearing the underwear of the people you have just displaced into murder. You know?

Like you got to look at from everyone's perspective, I say. Here is Meet Matt Lieb, describes himself as a comedian, but his business model is hate. Okay. Charges users on, again, charges users on Patreon to listen to anti-Israel conspiracy theories. Hosts radicalized guests to validate extremist narratives. Guilt. Yeah, spreads hate and disinformation disguised as satire. All of that great.

I love, wait, are you saying that I'm doing disinformation through satire? Because there's just so many layers there where you have to, you have to, it's, can you do disinformation and comedy? I guess so, but it seems kind of difficult. And then they go through like your tweets. And I have to admit, like, there's a few of them that I'm like, you. you know, base, thank you for showing them. And then there's others that I was like, I had like a way better tweet about that like two days earlier. Why did you choose this one?

So this is them saying rebranding aggressors into victims post-October 7th. This very specifically was about a, do you guys remember shortly after October 7th there was this rumor about a global day of jihad? Do you remember this? It was like... They were coming for us. I had an ex-girlfriend text me. I had a party, actually, on the eve of that, just like 1999, like, why 2K? Because I thought it was over, you know.

So, I mean, you want to talk about blood. You want to talk about, you know. Like, there was a network on a party like it's Arab, Chris, still knocked. So, this is. what I wrote in response to that. You were saying the ex-girlfriend sent it to you. Yeah, ex-girlfriend said, hey, did you know, there's going to be a global day of jihad, you know,

tomorrow or whatever. So just be careful. And I was like, I think I told her, I was like, okay, I'll be careful. But also, if it doesn't happen, will you maybe accept that possibly you are being propagandized to and they're using your fear against you? And then I did not get a response.

So I wrote, I'm going to choose not to believe some post-911 era Islamophobic BS about a global pogrom about to be perpetrated by the residents of an open air prison who are currently being slaughtered designed to scare me and my family into allowing that slaughter to be carried out in our name. Apparently, that was me rebranding aggressors into victims post October 7th. Well, there's an every accusation is a confession. Yeah, yeah. Spreading blood liable and anti-Semitic tropes. This is when they were trying, to Israel, foreign ministry was trying to prove that Hamas had direct links to the Samud Flatilla.

And I was saying, by the way, this is then making the case, the future case that murdering Greta is justified, which is what they often do, is they often do try to get the narrative to be, this is Hamas, and then they murder that person based on that narrative. And it's advanced manufactured consent for what their purpose. plotting. It's a trial balloon. They basically want to see what the response is going to be to see if they're going to be able to get away with the thing that they're plotting. Exactly. And it's, you know, this is established fact in terms of what they do. I mean, there was articles written about in Plus 972 magazine wrote about this. I think Haaret's also, you know,

shed some light into this practice of smearing someone as Hamas as a pretext to, murdering them. It's just shameful. It's just shameful that we have someone on this podcast talking about Jews plotting. I mean, what a blood libel trove. The only Jews, the only Jew, now that was, that was Dr. Ware. Okay. I'm calling you out. I'm calling you out. I'm calling you out. That's right. Oot. All of it. Listen, the only Jews, the only Jews doing, doing any plotting, all right, are the hard proletarian Jewish workers working in writers rooms in Hollywood. They are doing serious plotting, and they do not control anything. Okay. Right. Like Dave, Chappelle said if you see a bunch of black people together, it's a gang, a bunch of Italian men,

it's a mafia, a bunch of Jewish men, it's a coincidence, and you never saw it. Can you go back to the previous slide? I want to go in on exactly this point, right? Because that's the, it's the Islamophobic BS. So, I mean, you know, I converted to Islam when I was 15 years old. I converted to Islam because I read the autobiography of Malcolm X. I'm going to bring Malcolm. He's always over my shoulder.

I read that book cover to cover in one night when I was 15, and I converted to Islam before the week was out, and that was my indoctrination into both the Islam is a system of religious meaning and my personal faith tradition, but also the black radical tradition. And I just have to point out how weaponized Islamophobia has been so absolutely critical to the success of this bad Hasbara project, right? They are able to consistently demonize Muslims as Muslims in ways that if you did that for Jewish populations, you would be immediately tabbed as an actual anti-Semite. But what is allowed to slide regarding Muslims is inadmissible. And then the last thing, just on that particular point, right, it was also Malcolm that told me how to read October 7th. It was the Black liberation tradition that told me how to read the circumstances. that we're in because Malcolm, I mean, everybody knows about the PC published in 64 called Zionist Logic,

but Malcolm visited Han Yunus and Malcolm in his own field notebooks, in his own handwriting, you can find this at the Schaumburg Center for Research on Black Culture. Malcolm said this is a white Jewish population being empowered by white imperialists to move Arabs off their land. Malcolm understood Zionism as a regional expression of white supremacy, the same way that German Nazism was an ethnic variant of white supremacy, the same way that British colonialism mobilized an ethnic variance of white supremacy, the same way that good old-fashioned American white supremacy is its own regional variant. And so that's the reason why, you know, those of us that happen to be like black and Muslim and revolutionary all at the same time, we knew how to

read what was going on. We knew how to see through the propaganda because it's always the demonization of the same suspects. And it's not for nothing that, like, right there next to, of course, first and foremost Palestinians and then anti-Zionist Jews, you have seen, like, black liberation thinkers ten toes down from the beginning because, like, we were taught how to read what's going on. We're not new to this. We true to this.

So, yeah. Although, as Breonna Joy Gray, friend of the pod told us at our live show, the one difference between black Palestine solidarity activists and white is that you're not going to see so many black solidarity activists wearing watermelon earrings right yeah yeah you're like now i miss me with that i'm good she blew my mind with that i was like oh i never noticed that that's true though listen black black liberation aesthetics are you know are their own entire category yes that's true we're not taking notes from nobody on that so nobody should take nobody should take it personal No, I totally understand.

That is an amazing thing for me to finally. Panther hats are not the same as pussy hats. That's true. That's true. Different kind of feline. Wow. But I do have to say, thank you. No.

Welcome to Badd as Bar. I do also have to say when it comes to, I thought this was a bird episode. When it comes to, and now we're in the cat, bird seat, When it comes to a head-to-head between Judaism and Islam, there's lots of things to recommend each religion. But when it comes to the conversion process, Islam wins hands down. Oh, yeah. You say one prayer.

You say one prayer. You devote your life to it. That's it. Not all these years of having to go to meet with a rabbi every Sunday and learn this arcane thing and much less the doku pill option. Oh, yeah, yeah. Getting cut twice. You don't want to get double doku-pilled.

It's no good for it. any of us. But yeah, I agree completely. I mean, you know, this is something that I think what radicalized me in my youth was realizing that for every anti-Semitic trope that I had heard growing up, I realized that there was sort of a Islamophobic corollary. And the difference being that the Islamophobia had state-backed power, whereas the anti-Semitism was looked down upon almost universally. So realizing that we had essentially just sort of, you know, copy-pasted our old tropes and put them on to Islam and Muslims and Arabs in general for the purpose of, you know, upholding

the state, which was like, we need the state because anti-Semitism is scary. It's like, motherfucker, we're doing anti-Semitism to these people. And I think that's, you know, that's when I started understanding what Zionism actually was behind the sort of mask of the liberal, you know. Well, we all need to, you know, pretend as if this is for keeping Jews safe. It's like, no, it's not. It doesn't. But Matt, but Matt, but Matt, but Matt, what did they say? What did they say about me?

Oh, they said a lot about you. Because I woke up on Sunday and I saw the Matt Lieb thing. And I was like, on his podcast, bad as well, I'm like, does he have help? Is he doing this awesome based work alone? Or does he have assistance? And not to mention Adam. I mean, I can't imagine how Adam is. Matt Leib nominated for anti-Semite of the year and his sidekick.

Yeah, that's right. If you got called sidekick, I think you would throw a fit. Respect the second stringer. Okay, Fife sometimes outwrapped Q-Tip. That's true. What would be real be without, you know? But I know. Not sometimes.

By the time that midnight Marauders came around, Oh, you're absolutely. No, no, run circles around him. Cuitep. I mean, if you go back to, you know, left my wallet in El Segundo or I'm going to need Apple, you know, try to do it nursery rhymes.

But, and if you want another one, listen, Big boy. Picture Fife winning, losing a battle. Come on, get off it. Get off it. Get down the microphone, son. Surrender forfeit. Did I hear something about a crew?

What they want to do, you better call Mr. Babyface so he can bring out the cooling you. Yeah, absolutely. I just want to say that was one of the most amazing moments in baddest bar history. I was an emcee before anything else, and I'm just going to let you guys know, like, I've got a, they not like us, distract coming for the Epstein filers and for all of my opponents in the California gubernatorial race. And I'll just give you, I'll give you a bar.

Let's see. Body y'all on a verse. Handle light work first. Eric Swalwell, all hail, back up the hearse. Eric Swallow Well for Israel and Kate for the cops. He wrote a thank you note to Ice, kid, I kid you not. Swallow Well. He dropped draws for A-Pack, me I rep Tupac.

And the Panthers like a fanny good and plenty catching many Katie Porter up next. Hercee beat up her ex. And she's screaming her staff, pout and storm off the set. So listen, I was raised in hip-hop culture. And there is no other gubernatorial candidate that is going to be able to give you political critique. at 101 BPM. That is fantastic. Oh my dude, I'm stoked

for whatever you're going to be dropping soon on all of these people. It's great. I need to hear that over an alchemist beat. Absolutely. Well, the thing is, and we've got to do whatever we can because they are going to do whatever they can

to make sure that like the voters never hear from an actual anti-Zionist because the thing that they're most terrified of is the fact that like, amongst young people across the ideological spectrum, nobody believes in the lies of Zionism anymore. And nobody thinks that elected officials should swear loyalty oaths to a foreign settler colony in order to hold elected office in the United States of America. You know what I'm saying? And in order to break through the fact that we're going to constantly be knocked down by the mainstream media and by the corporate parties,

He's like, I'm going to, listen, if I got to throw a little PT Barnum into the act to get people to pay attention to serious issues, then we'll do what needs to be done. And, look, I was, I was, you know, spitting bars from the time I was, you know, 10 years old, and I'll never stop doing that. So it is what it is. I love it. No, it would work for Zara on, too. Go PT Barnum on their ass, and they'll label it the greatest showa on Earth. Hey. Oh, didn't see that one coming.

Thank you. Brut. Y'all just say, bum, bum, buch. Two shows 830 and 11. That's right. That's right. That's right. Come to the late show,

come to the early show. Tip your server. Okay. Just that, yeah. So then they said blood libel. Oh, comparing ice to Nazi. How dare you? I compared ice to Nazis.

I'm like, man, you're really showing your hand as to who this is for. And it's like nobody. I love when they say things like ice officers have kids too. Yeah, so did Nazis. Right. Exactly. Yeah. What are we supposed to do with that?

They're like, how dare you? Won't someone think of the Nazis' children? I know, exactly. And then I said, we need regime change in America. And it says, calling for a modern American revolution. Cool. Everyone likes that. If it's good for Venezuela and it's good for Iran and it's good for Syria and it's good for Russia,

why can't we have some regime change? And it's weird. Finally, Daniel's in the mix. Okay, let's hear what they have. Daniel Maté is a podcaster and co-host of Bad He He has used his platform to post-content that spreads hate and dehumanization, including mocking the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Barely.

It was a very light. It was a very light, jab. Barely ridiculing an Israeli hostage as a, quote, lunatic and dismissing anti-Semitism with Nazi-era taunts and cynicism towards Jewish safety. Well, Nazi-era taunts. What era do you want me to use? I mean, as George Michael said, if you're going to be. to do it, do it right.

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you right now, what they consider to be Nazi-era-taunts is, like, I still don't fully understand what they're mad about here. This isn't commentary. It's normalization. Hey, I've been called a normalizer by everybody now. I know. Now everyone thinks you're a normalizer.

You're the most normal guy. I'm the guy who co-wrote the myth of normal. That's right. That's right. If murder and anti-Semitism are his. punchlines he shouldn't be anyone's go-to podcaster he must be d platform go-to podcaster what a fucking phrase yeah this is so this is chat gbt i was going to say is chat gbt you're right you're right actually this is chat gpt i i i realize that now and it makes me feel a little bit sad

about both of ours being probably chat gpt they didn't they didn't even do you the respect of actually writing it themselves maybe they couldn't maybe they couldn't maybe they couldn't couldn't actually think about how to how to creatively and incisively take digs at us. You know, like maybe they couldn't figure it out. They just needed the help. They're like, is there way we can try to de-platform someone and waste a lot of water in a small town somewhere? Here we go. Daniel Matee, first of all, they did you dirty with this photo.

Okay, that's what everyone says. People, that's my Instagram profile picture. Or, I mean, they made it a little, they made me look a little more pale. a little more sickly. Yeah, they edited it. But I chose that picture for myself. I love that. Now I'm learning that everyone hates that picture. I mean, I have to change it. I guess in a different context now I'm like, okay, I guess it could be. It's pretty bad. I don't mind the picture. Like, I like the rugged beard. You know, the cash Patel eyes are the part that's throwing me a little bit. Yeah, you got the cat. And then also the, the hair, you know, listen, we both sometimes combed, sometimes

don't. I had just gotten a haircut. I had worn my, I'd worn my, I'd worn my, I'd worn my, I'd worn my, my toque, you know, my winter hat because it's fucking cold here in New York. You guys don't understand this. If you wear hat hair, it's because you're reping some sports team. I got to stay, I got to keep my ears warm. And, you know, I had put a little

organ oil in my hair, which made a little, you know, it's a little whatever. So that's my picture. I chose it. I don't mind the pick at all. Yeah, you look great. You look fantastic. So then they say sympathize with Hamas.

Yeah, that's crazy hair. And they play a video of us, a few episodes ago where we say we don't think about Hamas and we essentially we have no problem understanding the fact that there's people protesting against Israel

who chant things like we support Hamas here like we have no issue understanding that and pretending because of the same reasons you outlined butch right in terms of the right and in many ways the obligation to visit the inevitability I've always

frame this in terms of, like, I'm not interested in moral condemnations of oppressed peoples and how you can make tactical arguments. You could, if I felt I was in a position to, and it wouldn't be obscene for me to do so, make a tactical criticism. But I'm just not going to do that. I'm certainly not going to use this podcast to do that. And that was the point we made. And that's the only ethical position to take. And I'll just say, I mean, I've done, you know, since, so I really, I didn't get on social media until 2020 when George Floyd was murdered. And I started the hashtag Zionism is white supremacy in 2021 because of the, you know, mowing the lawn of Gaza, I think in May of that year, right? And so I've taken—

Lawn mowing is a—I mean, it's a very white-coded activity as it is. It is. So I've organized a bunch of different activities with, you know, Palestinian liberation-minded groups, student groups. At one of them, I got like the most crystal clear expression of this. We were on Zoom with a brother in Palestine. And he was asked a question in the audience, well, where do you stand with respect to people who are critical of the resistance? And his answer was so simple and so clear. He said, anyone who condemns the, anyone who does not support the resistance, does not support Palestinian liberation.

and anyone who condemns the resistance is a traitor. Yeah, yeah. I completely agree. In the end, right, you can have tactical arguments about it, but you're on the outside, and there are people that have a knee on their neck, to your point, Daniel, like Aja Monet, great, you know, black poet and literary figure, she had one of the best analogies that was given to her by a woman in Gaza.

And the analogy was, is if somebody has got a foot on a person's neck and they're down on the ground and you're watching it. And they start saying, get this foot off my neck and then get increasingly desperate until they're banging, clutching, doing whatever they can. But you're just standing there not helping. You have, you lose any moral position to critique the way that they get the foot off of their neck. Yes. Yes. Completely.

That's it. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. And it's beyond the, I think, moral clarity of it too because I think to anyone who knows anything about the

way in which Israel operates I mean for the last two years everyone has learned and everyone has seen what Israel does what Israel is capable of what Israel will lie about what Israel will force you to agree with

you know through by through pain of cancellation or whatever and even beyond people just not, you know, learning about it until October 7th. I see two years of live stream genocide. It doesn't take someone who's educated in, you know, Israel, Palestine to see a very clear good guy and bad guy. And so I don't in any way fault anyone for being loudly and proudly pro Hamas because they just have a moral clarity on it. And anyone who

makes it their business to condemn Hamas. To be like, oh, you know, that's my, my whole thing in order to be, you know, equal or whatever, I always look at them suspiciously because I don't, I just don't understand their, I don't understand where they're coming from and therefore I'm suspicious of it. My caveat to that would be, but just, just borrowing from something you said, is anyone on the outside doing that? Correct. Just like I will defend, I will.

defend all the way the right of Palestinians to resist and to support the resistance and to go all in it. I will also absolutely hold space for Palestinians, particularly those living on the land to have a variety. And of course there's collaboration. That's a phenomenon too. We can be nuanced, we can understand.

But there are Palestinians with widely divergent positions on it because they have widely divergent interests, perspectives, philosophies, ideologies, no one is a monolith. And I'm not going to stand on the outside either. It'd be like, oh, those Palestinians or traders or normalizers or whatever, that's just as obscene to me.

Yes. I'm not going to, that's radical chic. That's not our place. I'm not trying to score points. I'm not trying to score points on either side of the ledger. I'm going to defend, I'm going to defend the container of what is right and just as a thing for me and my position and us and our position. It's a critical distinction insofar as the the actual aim and the actual goal is self-determination. Yes.

Right? The actual aim and actual goal is self-determination. And I just, just to be clear, I speak of the resistance. I don't speak of any specific vehicle or agent of the resistance. Right. Correct. Because we all understand, you know, that there's a significant amount of evidence that, you know, that the Zionist state that you'll remain nameless. Because Israel is a name of honor in the Quran. I can't apply it to the Zionist. that should remain nameless. We understand how they have, you know, at different times funded and manipulated and try to seek certain kinds of outcomes. So we stand with the resistance and we stand with Palestinian people in their struggles for self-determination because it's for Palestinians to decide what Palestinian self-determination is supposed to look like. It's not for, you know, for for leftists on the outside or anybody else. That's like the very name. That's like the very nature of what's being struggled for.

It's the same reason why I don't advocate for solutions. When people say this is the type of solution that should happen versus this type of solution, I do not have an opinion on solutions for it. The only solution that I want to see is the Palestinians, the colonized people determining whatever solutions that they want. Amen. That's it. Period.

And here are just a couple more. T. They're still going. Okay, good. Yeah, so sorry. They had fun with you guys, yeah. They really, yeah. Daniel Mate, a songwriter and co-host of quote, Bad Hasbara. Thanks for the, thanks for the, thanks for the, my primary identity as a songwriter. Yes. This says mocked murder, yeah, attacked victims, dismissed anti-Semitism, but let's read the tweets. Making fun of Charlie Kirk's murder. I generally don't like mean-spirited posts about assassinated people but as George Michael said if you're going to do it do it right call him kabloy c.k or something that's good I like that's all right yeah CK Charlie Kirk um

this is says mocking anti-semitz okay that was more clever than I thought that's right okay okay okay this is uh and and so combat anti-semitism did a post where it says momdani we have a message for you and it is an AI blimp through time At Rockefeller Center. Oh, at Rockefeller Center. Outside 30 Rock, yeah. That says, anti-Semitism will never win.

And you wrote Hindenberg, but make it shit genocide colored balloons. Because there are blue and white balloons coming out of its ass. Right. bizarre. And what they did was they pointed out what the Hindenburg was.

And they said, 1937 New Jersey, Hindenberg blimp. explosion. How is that anti-s? I don't understand. It's weird. So basically,

if I understand correctly, they're mad that you don't give away your propaganda for free because they think that you should. And they want to create annotated versions of your tweets. Is that basically? And they want to stop me.

And they want to stop me from mocking AI slander invoking anti-Semitism, like using the word, putting the word anti-Semitism will never win in people's faces in the most artificial, tacky, chinty, kitschy, muckable, and quite frankly, you know, Jewish conspiracy theory of hearing way.

They don't want me to mock that. It's a little spot on. That's sacrosanct to them. Yeah. It's a little spot on. And also, I think they a little bit are doing, like a, they're shaming you for making a joke out of the Hindenburg explosion, which I find really funny.

Too soon? Too soon. Every technology needs test runs, okay? You're going to mock the Wright brothers for not flying at first? Let's see, God damn it. And apparently it's a good day for God to damn things. Okay, what day was that? That was Yom Kippur.

Yes. This is October 2nd, 2025. Two people have been killed. this was a car that was rammed into a synagogue in England. And they think I'm mocking it. I was legitimately 100% sincerely saying, fuck. God damn it. And given that it's Yom Kippur, God judges us on Yon Kippur, it's a good day for God

to damn things. That's the extent of it. You completely misread it. It's so funny because I'm like, okay, so they have no idea what they're mad about here. This is 100% AI. They're a mess over there, guys. I mean, I got to say, for a minute, I thought, you know, we might have not gotten anti-Semite of the year, but at least, you know, we got Canary Mission. But I really feel like it doesn't hit the same as it used to.

I feel like, you know, their operations kind of falling apart over there. They're phoning it in. We got to step our game up. Yeah, we really do. Yeah, we really do. I, you know, I mean, they got to step their game up. It's not on us. We're doing our best to create enough freaking evidence of our secret dark anti-Semitic hearts.

And they're out here doing just like a fucking... No, I'm completely satisfied with this. I'm completely satisfied with this treatment. All the detail, all the... Like, I love seeing them work, you know? Yes. And come up with nothing. My favorite one is two years after the attack

of the Supernova Music Festival, Israelis find solace or pop music. And then you wrote... In Rolling Stone. Yeah, that was in Rolling Stone. Who wrote that article again? No Itishbee, baby. No Titcheby.

No Titia. Or Lizzie Sivetsky. of those. Oh, I believe it was Tishby. Yes. And you wrote major props to all the pop artists from Bjork to Lord who are doing what they can to deny Israelis that solace. And I love celebrating

cruelty. It's truly amazing and feels good to finally be recognized at least, if not by the Hezbaris themselves, at least the AI agents that have been trained on their thinking.

Listen, we may have disappointed at our moms, but I'm proud of us. That's right. Welcome to the call, mind, gents. We made it. We made it. We should take a little break, but everyone, please, stick around because we will be right back.

And we're back. This Bad As Barra, the World's Most Moral podcast here with Dr. Butch Ware. How are you doing, Dr. Ware? No complaints just yet, man. Beautiful. Dr. Ware, do you think you could help us get your colleague, Dr. Who, on the show?

we're hoping for I know Dr. Y and Dr. What are a little harder to get. He was... I don't know. Third base. Sorry. Daniel was so excited to do that joke

that he literally like Babe Ruth called it. He was like, oh. Except I pointed to the infield. I was like, I'm going to hit it. I'm going to hit an infield looper with that one. Routine round. Routon short.

I mean, right. Calling it. Call in it. Yeah. Bold, bold with my low expectations. As a father of, you know, two stepdaughters, two daughters and a special needs son, I appreciate a good dad joke. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

He's filled with dad jokes. The only thing that he needs now is a kid. I'm constantly auditioning for parenthood. I know. You're ready, dude. And yet the jokes at least. Yet no uterus has accepted. You can borrow my daughter.

Change the profile pick. Exactly. No, sorry. No, no, no, no, bro, bro. I love, I love the honesty. He's just giving you advice. This is how men need to treat each other with hard truths. Speaking of which, speaking of which, we need to talk about the moment we're in. And I can't think of anyone better of the male persuasion to talk about it with than you. Because I just trust your analysis. I trust your heart. I trust your mind.

I trust your big vision when it comes not just to questions of just redistributive class justice or racial justice, but also a sense of gender justice, a feminist awareness. And we're in this moment with the Jeffrey Epstein stuff, and I'll just say a few things to set the table,

and then I'll just let you loose with it. And we'll show some screenshots of some of the stuff. It's interesting, this podcast, ever since the turn of the new year, almost every episode, we're talking about things that reside outside of Israel and yet are somehow connected. We've done a lot of ice, Minneapolis and stuff like that. But like it's almost as if like our hyper focus on what's going on over there has run its course.

Like we have to expand our view in order to capture the moment we're in. And Bad Hasbara has become a global trade. It's not just an Israeli thing anymore, you know. Well, and before we move to the Epstein piece, and thank you for, you know, for trusting me, you know, to comments in this moment. You know, I'll try to speak from a place of more clarity. But I want to underline the point that you just made. So part of the reason why I'm a little more hoarse than normal is that I was in Minneapolis

because I grew up on the south side of Minneapolis about a block away from where Alex Pready was murdered. And, you know, shouting at ice and 15 below weather was not great for my vocal course. So I'm still a little bit raspy. But I went on the first. Fisherman's friend extra strength for that. Definitely. But when I went with my mom for coffee, and also the really talented MC Vic Mensa, Vic Mensa was like, do you want to go to Minneapolis?

And I was like, yeah, let's go. You know, like, we'll stay at my mom's, you know, like, it's no problem. So we went for coffee and I was wearing a free Palestine beanie. And, you know, white guy in his 30s, you know, sees the beanie. And he was like, he was like, free Palestine and fuck ice. Be safe out there. You know, like the connection between the two is obviously. And it's not just the imperial boomerang connection, that which we do to Palestinians will eventually be done to us here.

But it's also people waking up to the reality that has always been present for black people, which is that a settler colony is going to settler colony. And that a place that's built on indigenous genocide is a place that has moral rot at its core. So the Epstein conversation and the conversation about ICE abolition and the conversation, about Palestinian liberation, in no sane world are those separate conversations. Yes. For a couple of other reasons, too, and it's all, I mean, intersectional, but it's the most disgusting intersection in the world. Number one, sexual domination is core to the Zionist project.

100%. Jewish trauma and macho, this desperate attempt to reclaim masculinity that was destroyed in Europe by people who have. nothing to do with the Palestinians, then visited upon the Palestinians with great brutality, cruelty, and twistedness starting in the 30s and 40s all the way until today. Even before, I mean, sorry to argue back, but even before that, right, Herzl and Jabotinsky are making arguments that are about a different kind of Jew, one that is more manly, one that is more masculine.

And that's another part of the Western imperialism that's hardwired. into Zionism, right? When Mussolini invaded Ethiopia, you know, I teach African history, Mussolini invades Ethiopia, the Ethiopian press is saying Italy is also a feralile country, and they're using penetration metaphors and imagery to describe why they're colonizing Ethiopia 50 years after the rest of Africa had been colonized by the French, Dutch, and British, and so forth. So they're absolutely interconnected. And all the while... And all the while, the rapists and the pedophiles fetishize women and children and invent slander

against the people they're raping and oppressing to cast them as barbarians who are, who are, you know, mutilating and exploiting and violating our precious resource, which is our pure virginal women. I saw a horrible clip. We're not going to play right now of some Israeli Kineset foreign. on like intermarriage or or premarital sex or something like that and they have this settler religious expert talking about how non-viginal women are like used stickers like the adhesive is gone oh my god you know stuff like that like it's all just built in and then that leads

me to the the third thing that that connects it in ways that nauseate me you know particularly um although i don't want to get too lost in this because i think it's easy for us as like leftists and whatever, to look at the Epstein thing and be like, oh, what does it mean for the way Jews are seen? What does it mean about the left? What does it mean about Chomsky? What does it mean about power and whatever? And like, meanwhile, we're being exposed to a slave trade involving women and children and like, and the pornification of our society and all the other kinds of things that implicate the rest of us a little bit more. But let me just say, the Jewish supremacist angle. You're talking about Herzl and Jabotinsky, you know, envisioning and envisioning and

inventing this new kind of virile desert Jew instead of the sniveling one. Well, all throughout these files, there's this sick strain of self-obsessed, narcissistic. It's Jewish trauma metastasized. You know, Taanasi Coat said something really interesting in his book, The Message. He said, thank God after slavery. Like, black people were not granted an ethnosupremicist license Emerging because imagine what we would have done like the pain that we hadn't healed. Imagine what we would have visited upon others. And he's saying that Israel is a case example of what happens when you give unhealed trauma, unlimited power. It will turn.

And fucking Epstein, Weinstein, they're talking about Goeim and all that. It's an anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists' wet fucking dream. And it's nauseating to see, but it's also in some place, in some kind of way, bracing and referring. to seek us, okay, fine, it's out in the open. Some Jews do talk this way. It's fucked up. Anyway, that's what I wanted to say. Go.

Yeah, I mean, so I'll start with a sober statement about the inner work that needs to be done in this moment. Thank you. That's a great place to take it. Because before I ever got called into electoral politics, I was somebody that was called on to comment from the standpoint. of, you know, Islamic thinking and black resistance traditions and African history on how to read where we are in the long-term trajectory of capitalism, imperialism, white supremacy, and so

forth. So the most important thing that I think that we need to say in this moment as individuals, as human beings, is to understand that unless and until we heal from the trauma that capitalism, imperialism, and white supremacy has inscribed upon us, we are guaranteed to reproduce it in whatever institutions are to follow. And patriarchal male supremacy, too. Exactly. And that's the fundamental issue is that without having healed from the trauma of what white supremacy did to European Jews, because let's be clear, you can be a victim of white supremacy and then also be a perpetrator of white supremacist genocide and violence, right?

Absolutely. See, C. C. Ice agents. Yeah, or C ice agents. Or Latino ICE agents. Yeah, you see all the time. And it was the great black queer feminist theorist, Bell Hooks, who reminded us, white supremacy is not a white people's problem only. White supremacy is threaded through all of our institutions and it reproduces itself in a bunch of seen and unseen ways. And until we heal from the trauma of empire and capitalism and white supremacy and patriarchy and misogyny and all of those things, until we heal from that, we are going to inscribe them onto, whatever else we create. So those traumas and harms get carried forward. And the first revolution

is in here. The first revolution is inside the heart. It's inside the consciousness. That's why Malcolm's autobiography spoke to me at such a deep level, because what I saw was a person who had escaped the mental prisons that had been constructed for his consciousness. And because he saw with clarity from outside of the conditioning that he had been born into, he was able to speak with moral precision and clarity in these crucial moments. So that's the first part is that we have to understand that there's a binding moral incumbency upon each one of us as human beings to do this inner work of like killing that colonizer and cop that exists inside of our hearts. Then that leads on to the broader question. Man, yeah, they're doing their best to embody and carry out every single

stereotype that was ever weaponized in service of actual anti-Semitism, right? Like, it's, it's almost too spot on. Here's an example. Here's an example. So here's Mark Fisher. I'm not sure who that is talking to Jeffrey Epstein in 2010. Thought about our conversation regarding meditation. Actually, it's not that hard.

Why? A Jewish soul has a very different structure, different ingredients and components, relates to its higher levels differently, has different higher levels, relates to its and other people in a different manner than a non-Jewish soul. To use repair methods and meditation on something as sensitive as a soul requires the right tools. You can't fix an Aston Martin with a Ford pickup truck tool set. With the right meditation, it isn't so hard. And then, yeah.

So that's just an example of the kind of. And then some planning. I love that. If you're coming to New York, I'll be here around then. Make sure to line up. I have chemo next week. Yeah, I have chemo. Can we do some underground concubine action?

and, you know, maybe some underage crimes together. Here is Jeffrey Epstein offering to Josh Harris, whoever that is. You should feel free to call me directly so that I may explain my thinking. Any conversation that you prefer to stay just between us will. It's my financial confessional booth for Jews. Ugh. Yeah. I mean, look.

One of my favorite jokes in the real, recent past was I think this is the you know that zay squirrel account he posts us a lot and what he posts is Larry David on SNL part of his yeah what do you call it his monologue opening monologue his opening monologue was I've noticed that a lot of the people not all of them but a lot are Jews and then of course he slaps his head he does the whole thing and it's like yeah You know, this is one of those things where I look at it as different from the Hezbara around it. Like, the Hezbara around it is when I see the Israeli government doing its best to try to portray Jews as the most Nazi wet dream of bloodthirsty and conniving and all that stuff, I understand it from their perspective because what's the most Nazi wet dream of bloodthirsty and conniving and all that stuff. I understand it from their perspective because what they're doing is both trying to spread anti-Semitism,

which of course is what is Boris do, it's what Israel loves to do, making things. It's a raison d'etre of the state. They're just planting their cash crop. Right. Yeah. And if you're looking at it, you know, from at least a different perspective is also them seeing all of these Nazi traits. both the anti-semitic traits and actual just Nazi traits, and looking at them as strengths.

Like, well, no one can accuse us. If anyone tries to accuse us of doing, you know, X, Y, and Z, we'll just say it's an anti-Semitic thing. And so, yeah, but this to me is different because this to me is an inside window into, I think, this strata of elite people in the United States. And this is real. This is what you're seeing.

You're seeing ethno-nationalists having a private conversation. And this is how they talk. This is what they believe. And again, shout out to Norman Finkelstein, who's been saying things that sounded shocking a few years ago and are now just fucking common sense, talking about a Jewish billionaire class. I'm sorry.

Not all of these people in here are Jews, but the Jewishness of the ones who are, they're so self-conscious about it. Like it's not like it's like just some, some hidden part of their identity. It's driving them in a certain way. They're aware of it. They're worked, like, it's tied up

with their view of themselves and their relationship to the world. They're still scrappy underdogs. They're still making moves in the background because that's what we have to do. Like, they've completely and totally internalized and become the thing that their parents and grandparents were killed.

for having not been. Exactly that. And one of my favorite emcees, wise intelligent from poor, righteous teachers, you know, great. He came to my hip-hop history class one time, and he said narrative scripts human behavior the way that code scripts computers. Wow. Damn. Yeah. Right?

And the thing is, is that when you're embedded in a certain kind of narrative, you're literally going to reproduce the elements of that narrative subconsciously. It is coding the way that you move in the world. So it's inevitable, actually. And sorry to get philosophical about this, but I'm a professor. So the thing is, is that both linguistically and analytically, the antithesis of a thing must contain the thesis. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

If you are defining yourself as the opposite of the thing, you have actually defined yourself in terms that are provided by the thing. So that's the reason why we have to do the inner work of healing, because if white supremacy, defines you in a certain way, then your redefinition and reclamation product is going to contain the poison inside of it and is going to express that poison at every single level of the activities. You are hardwiring supremacist ideologies into every single thing that you do. See also anyone who's ever said, well, when I become a parent, I'm certainly not going to parent. My kids like my dad did.

Right, right. You know, like, I'm never going to become like my mom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it produces a dialect. What you resist persists. And it defines you. And so then that, that leads me to another perspective on this, which is, you know, the Islamic philosophical position. So one thing that I've been teaching for decades in the Muslim community and in my academic classroom was this Islamic conception on the origin of supremacist thinking.

So it's literally in the Quranic version of the story of Adam and Eve and the devil is that the devil is commanded to bow to the frame of Adam, is commanded to bow to our shared human ancestor. And what I'll often say is what attracted me to Islam as a youth and still to this day was that the Quran's most radical argument is also its simplest. You're all the children of Adam and Eve and you were made from dirt. none of you is better than any of the other one because of your origin. So the devil is commanded to bow to this human being and he refuses. And the Quranic verse says, God asks, why did you not bow? And the Belisa's response is, I'm better than him. You made me from fire.

You made him from clay. So on the basis of lineage origin and bodily composition, this creature, it becomes the first supremacist in the cosmological history. He was an elementalist. He was an elementalist. He thought one aspect of reality was better than another. And so then just think about how every single supremacist construct is contained in that moment. In the end, it comes down to saying, I'm better than him.

These are my forefathers. This is how I look. This is who I am. So therefore, I'm going to claim superiority. And when you understand it in that way as part of a cosmic narrative, then you understand that you're literally dealing with devilry, right? It's not the like this is, it's not the rituals and other things that are that are demonic. It is this supremacism that is purely demonic in its origin. And it is not actually how human beings are meant to interact with one another.

It's not how we're wired. We understand how fragile. we all are and that, you know, in our cosmic story, we come from dirt, but the reality, and that we go back to it. But the reality is that while we're here, we're fragile and we get hungry and we get tired and we get fatigued. And we all bleed when we're wounded. We're all the same. And these supremacist discourses are the most heinous and destructive discourses to any efforts at like basic humanity or dignity. And that's a cosmic problem. Yeah. Well, and you know, to add some psychology to your philosophy,

there's the inverse element of it, of course. And it's very, I think, apparent when you look at the relationship between men and women in many cultures, including ours and capitalism has its own particular version of it, but it's far from the only system where men have divorced themselves from the natural order and demonized and villainized and commodified and traded and abused and been traders too. the female, but just like, you know, this is the inverse of the devil saying, I'm better than you, there's a profound inferiority complex. There's a profound sense of threat, of course, you know,

in what women carry or the power they have over life and death, you know, their connection to God, to the natural world, all of this. And capitalism is the enclosing the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, uh, the occupation of the barbed wire fence building around, the apartheiding of the things that we can't control so that we can control them and try to have some sense of dominion, including exploiting them for our... And charging rent for them. And charging rent for them. The claim of superiority is rooted in the deepest forms of insecurity.

And that's why there's always violence that is then, you know, utilized to produce this, you know, this superiority, right? It's the reason, and it's the reason why it's always, and I mean, we have to be talk about this. We're going to talk about the Epstein. It's always sexual violence. Yeah. Right. It's, it's always an effort to as much as possible, you know, inflict as much pain, as physical pain and moral harm as possible.

And it's all on the most vulnerable. Because we hate our own vulnerability. And let's be clear about this. people are responding, you know, to the most heinous, sickening, and despicable abuses of children. But there isn't anything that I've seen in the Epstein files that, you know, Thomas Jefferson didn't do with his enslaved, you know, mistress, right? You know, as though a 12-year-old, you know, that you own and sexually abused can be conceived of as a mistress, as she's sometimes related.

When people say this isn't what America is or this isn't who we are, what America have you been tuned into? Because the reason why so many African Americans are my skin color rather than, you know, original, you know, jet black, West African skin color is because of the systematic sexual abuse of women and children. Let's not forget, you know, women and children. And so those supremacist structures are so thoroughly embedded in the Western capitalist imperialist project, there's a saying in Walloff, and I spent years in Senegal where I did my PhD research, I learned to speak the Walloff language fluently. And they'll say, they'll say, it's like coffee with milk, Mangobole non- Mangobole Tours, which means that it's become so mixed together that you

either have to drink the whole thing or pour the whole thing out. Right. That the supremacism and the sexual violence is so deeply rooted in the Western imperialist project that, you know, if you drink it, you know, if you drink the one, you're going to drink the other. You have to pour the whole thing out because they're so thoroughly connected. And that's why we have to resist. We have to resist the idea that billionaires can traffic children with impunity. We have to resist. Be they, you know, Jewish, be they, you know, Christian nationalist, whoever they are.

And by the way, not just children. I don't care if someone's above the age of so-called consent. A woman who's been trafficked who is 21, who is 24, who is 30, I don't want to hear about her fucking agency. Thank you. Yeah. That's a system of slavery as much as child trafficking is.

Thank you for that. Because it's an important corrective. So the thing that I'm always trying to do, and you ask me to comment, so I'll shift the approach slightly, is that it is very easy for us to get caught in the darkness of this moment, right? The sheer horror and perversity and brutality of the way that our domestic and international political structures

are demonstrating for us how inhuman and, you know, absolutely monstrous they are. But part of the, again, to just talk about my own personal faith, like one of the things in the Quran that was so striking to me was that it's this balance between warnings and glad tidings, that there's never so much focus on the evil in the world, that you forget that you have the capacity through your action to bring about a better outcome. And this is what I really want to turn our attention to as much as possible, is that Malcolm, who brought me to Islam and to the, the Black Liberation tradition, Malcolm famously said, we are not outnumbered, we're out-organized, right? That actually the billionaire class should be terrified of us, and they're not because we are not organized. And if we shift that perspective and unplug from the programming that we've received, if we don't just wallow in the darkness, it's not that we turn our back on it. We say every last one of the names of the victims, we honor them, we seek accountability for all of those who,

who were harmed. But in the end, the revolution is not about what we're tearing down. It's about what we're building in its place, right? That all of our faiths and philosophies have this single universal truth that's at the core of them, which is that all empires fall. All empires fall, and that nothing that is taken by force and brutality is ever held. So therefore, my thought process is always how do we hasten the collapse of this oppressive structure and what community what solidarity, what whole societies do we build on the other side of that? And that requires us getting organized now. It requires us moving across confessional divides, divides of faith, racial, and ethnic divides to understand that if we organize, we outnumber them vastly. And they are, in point of fact,

terrified of us. The reason why we've seen such violent escalation by the Zionist entity is because it is threatened. It's an extinction burst. It's a caged, you know, it's an animal that's been backed into a corner. American Empire that cradle Zionism is in the exact same position. This is the extinction burst of American Empire. And I want as much as possible for us to be thinking about how we organize for Freedom Day, right? And what kind of society we want to build to get us there. Now, that is a rapture worth evangelizing about.

Word life, my brother, Word Life. And it was the hip-hop rapture. You know, like that, that, if we want to go back to KRS One's version of the Blondie, you know, the Blondie cover, right, is that it was one that was actually cultivated in me by, by hip-hop artists that were listening to Malcolm and that we're, you know, processing, you know, black liberation traditions and spiritual traditions. And we are the fulfillment of the prayers and hopes of those ancestors. We have the opportunity to redeem Judaism from Zionism. We have the opportunity to redeem black liberation from white supremacist empire.

It all depends on what we do from here. To redeem masculinity or at least being a man from what that's, and I have to give a shout out to the women in my life who I've spoken to over the past few days who have like rendered me more and more viscerally aware of how this land. Because like I said, it's too easy for me to kind of be like, yeah, well, that's how the billionaires are and like sort of be jaded or, you know, irony-pilled or whatever to the point where I don't feel it in my kishkas,

you know, I don't feel it in my guts. but the minute you open yourself to realize that you are in communion with and family and friends and beloved of people who are you know who are affected by this more directly than I am it it hits you in a different way and all of it's connected and just as there is a different kind of moral responsibility for white people to dismantle white supremacy because they're the primary benefactors of it, it is the prime responsibility for those of us that are men to dismantle the structures of misogyny and patriarchy that facilitate this massive scale of violence. It is incumbent upon us who benefit from these structures in day-to-day life to be constantly

creating space and safety. In a lot of ways, I'm very traditionally masculine. And it's the way I present. I go to the gym. I do all those things. But I was not raised up in an environment that privileged toxic masculinity. The idea was that a man's job is just to make their shoulders broad to create space for everyone, right? That that that's the job.

And if you're secure in who you are, then you don't need to be traumatizing people in order to have your manhood affirmed. That's just, and Bell Hooks, again, you know, helped us understand that, that in so many critical ways, it's men, you know, that are, you know, what's the word that I'm looking for, stunted, emotionally, spiritually, morally, and ethically by these structures. And so we have to help one another get free and we have to create space so that those that are most harmed by these oppressive systems and structures have space to advocate for their own liberation. It's collective liberation. or ain't no liberation at all, so we all got to get free. Yeah, absolutely. What was that phrase in Wallif again? It's Bangabole Narn, Bangabole Tour, which means you either drink the whole thing or you pour the whole thing out. I think there's never been a more appropriate and apt time to know that you have to throw the whole thing out than right now. That's it.

And, I mean, you read these emails, you see all of the, you know, Epsine filings, and you can't, you can't, you can't, avoid the fact that our entire government has been touched, that every single person who is serving either of the two major political parties is part of the same machine. And they will go to bat and normalize some of this behavior if it benefits their particular party. So time to throw it out. It's time you cannot drink. We have other horrific emails we could show, but we won't for time purposes and also I think that's enough, including, you know, just white supremacist, garbage, horrifically misogynist. But here's an email that we can show with great happiness. It refers someone we've already referred to several times. Yes. You know, look, we all know that

one of our left heroes, Tromsky has made some grave errors of judgment at the very, very least when it comes to a friendship with and giving advice to someone like Epstein, just a complete blind spot. for me for me i'm going to do everything i can to hold on to what i love about his the legacy of his work while allowing space for this aspect of his legacy as a human being to be somewhat tarnished i mean i'll occasionally listen to remixed to admission you know but i but i will not uh i will not the day the jepal paredes or the original the original i'll listen to it but here's but here's one of chomsky's acolytes students and truly one of the people who loves him the most in the world.

Norman Finkelstein standing on principle the way a man should. I'm not sure what the context for this is. People are saying that Finkelstein was invited to be in the Epstein-Dershowitz circle. I'm not sure if that's true. It looks to me in this thread at least, like Finkelstein initiated an exchange with a guy named Professor Trivers. Now, Professor Trivers at Harvard has a horrific exchange with Epstein about, I forget what, but it's completely horrific.

Here's Finglestin reaching out to him, academic to academic, saying, I was shocked to read your statement in The Guardian, basically regarding how Epstein is a person of integrity, et cetera, et cetera, who should be giving credit for serving whatever. And Trivers writes back, says, damn, I thought a heinous crime, quote,

was the U.S. invasion of Iraq 2003, or at least murder, rape, and pillage, Well, and Finkelstein says, my guess is if Epstein put your daughter at age 15 in such a position, you wouldn't publicly describe him as a friend and a person of integrity. In fact, I would hope that you'd promptly throttle both Epstein and Dershowitz. If I may go first. And that's not just personal pettiness. That's not just because Dershowitz cost him tenure and bedeviled it.

That's integrity. The image of Norm actually physically choking. the both of them is just such a great... Double throttle! Ellie Valley, get on it. We need that comic strip. And I mean, again, it's just, when you're standing

from a position of moral clarity regarding Palestinian liberation and that is your North Star, then you're going to know what to do with a bunch of other conversations. Yeah. Not always. We're not going to bring Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson

to this conversation at that point. Or the fact that there has been sexual violence inside of justice communities among people with very good politics. Fair, fair point. We don't want to be reductive. But it does, the part of it that disturbs me the most is it lends credence to people who for years

have been trying to point out to Chomsky stands like me. Like, look, the guy falls short on all kinds of anti-colonial stuff. He derides socialists. He's counter-revolutionary. He's a controlled op. They take it to all kinds of degrees. is at a certain point they lose me. But looking at this, I'm like, yeah,

hemming and hawing in one place, being a little bit timid or tepid when it comes to certain things, not having a taste for things that are too bold or radical, maybe a congeneral. It's had a pattern structure. Yeah, and I mean, I'll be honest.

You know, I personally never trusted Chomsky's positioning. And when he came out in support of Kamala in 2024, then that's when I understood. that I was dealing with, you know, somebody that did not understand the dynamics of power. And I mean, that's, that's really the other, you know, the other piece of this is that at what point do we effectively contest these people for power? Because our outrage and our protest is not going to produce the outcome that we need, right? And that, that, it's literally the reason why I'm, you know, back in the fight running for office, because in the end, we are not going to, like,

you cannot make a moral appeal to the people in the Epstein files. Right. Quametoré famously said that the problem with nonviolent protest is that it's predicated upon your enemy having a conscience and America has none. Well, the 1% of the 1% have nothing of basic morality. There is no moral appeal. And I often say, like, you can't make a moral appeal to oppressors because if they had morality, they wouldn't be oppressors, right?

Exactly. You can't just be like, have you no shame? Because their answer will be like, yeah. Right. And that's question. That's literally the issue. It's hard to have a moral conversation with someone who's got a baby in their mouth. Right. So, but I mean, this is really crucial because it helps us orient our action, right? Rather than just sitting with how dark it is, then what do we call to do?

And so this is the issue. Like the protests are like I know that they just did now another, you know, no King's protest that they're calling for. But going and marching where the cops tell you to march and telling them that you don't like it, that's not going to do anything. They know you don't like it. That's why they're doing it. And so instead you actually have to contest them for power. And it was going back to Malcolm, 1964, the ballot of the bullet, that I realized that electoral power was actually this crucial. part of a revolutionary toolkit that I had been ignoring. And that was the only real reason why I got

dragged into the electoral political process when Jill invited me. Malcolm in 64, mark these words, he said, we're going to knock on every door in Harlem. And we're going to register every black face behind every door, not as a Democrat, not as a Republican. And we're going to say, show us your card. And whoever didn't have the responsibility to register themselves, then we might just move them out of town. It's going to be the ballot or the bullet. Malcolm, in that ballot or the bullet speech, he said that a ballot can be as effective

an arm of war as a bullet can. And when I heard Malcolm say that, then I understood, while if you had given me 100 years, I never would have voluntarily run for office, I understood why I was being tagged in and invited in because we actually need that energy. that same kind of committed revolutionary energy that the Panthers brought. And the Panthers saw themselves as following in Malcolm's footsteps.

And they brought together mutual aid, direct action, and electoral power. And that those things together, along with the inner work of healing that we've been discussing through much of this podcast, that's how we get free. So it actually takes political organization because you have to contest them for power. You cannot make arguments with them. You have to take the power back from them. And we've got this crazy shot in the state of California to do exactly that. Tell us about that.

I'll tell you just the short version of it. The short version is that whereas Mamdani was polling at 1% in February for a June primary, where he had to get to 50%. we were at 2% in December, 5% now in January, we don't have to get to 50%. It's a jungle primary, top two candidates advance irrespective of party. 15% of the vote is going to create a one-on-one matchup between me and whichever establishment dem is running to become the new Gavin Newsom. It'll probably be Eric Swallow well for Israel.

And where will the lesser of two years? evil's argument be for them when it's just blue versus green, when it's just me versus a corporate dem. We have this opportunity to actually take the power away from them right now in 2026 because team blue genocide will never recover from an independent non-corporate political movement taking over their seat of power. Right. At the governor level? At the governor level. You see how they flipped out at the municipal level, the mayoral level? And it's so much worse than you think because the governor has incredible budgetary power and also power of appointment inside the state of California. So we can get all of the corporate

stooges out of the California deep state and instead put in people that have never taken a penny from APEC and will never take a penny from APEC. People that have never taken a penny from the weapons manufacturers and will never take a penny from the weapons manufacturers. We can literally steal the third largest economy in the world back from American imperialism on June 2nd, 2026, 6-2-6. And that's the reason why literally half of the donors for our campaign are people that are not even in the state of California, because they understand if we're successful in this primary, we can literally break the duopoly in the midterm. It's the palindrome primary, 6226.

6-2-6. And it's, so it's a really incredible opportunity. And I want people, you know, because I'm not going to make the whole political case here. We've had too good a time talking about the deeper levels of... We'll have links. We'll have links in the industry. Yes. But I do want to say this part. So which where forgov.com is the website. But you want to know how this has created like energy and movement. Roger Waters, Pink Floyd himself, reached out to me, reached out to me a month ago and said, I want to do a a benefit concert for your campaign. Amazing. But here it gets even better. February 7th, so this is happening this Saturday, Super Bowl weekend from 1 to 4 in San Leandro.

Roger Waters is performing. Lauren Horeghi, who used to sing with Fifth Harmony, Camilla Cabello, 12 million followers on Instagram. Lauren Horegis is performing. Palestinian comedian Sammy Obeyed is performing. Oh, man. The incredible trans activist, I'm an influencer, Angelica, Ross is going to speak. So we are literally doing a socialist Super Bowl, a revolutionary rally,

butchware for Cali. And you're going to see just the structure that we've built up and down the state, from San Diego to Humboldt County, into the inland empire, into the Central Valley. We have been at work on the ground because the one thing that they say about the Green Party is, where are y'all between, you know, presidential elections? And it's a bad argument. You know, We actually know that Greens have won 57% of the elections that we've stood for at smaller offices. Greens win local office all the time. But what I'm trying to demonstrate right now is that we can build the institutional infrastructure to contest for power. We don't have to wait.

So that's what we're doing. And we're throwing a hell of a Super Bowl, you know, socialist Super Bowl party. So if you're on the West Coast or even if you're not on the West Coast and just want to buy a ticket, you know, to support, we're giving away tickets to local mutual aid. organizations, Hero Tent in San Jose, Lighthouse Mosque in Oakland. And so, yeah, pitch in where you can because we're coming for Team Blue Genocide and Team Red Fascism. I'm taking no Christmas. Very excited for that. We will have links to everything in the description. So just start clicking right now, everybody. Click links, buy tickets. Of course, donate to your campaign. And man, that sounds like such a cool event. I want to go.

I am on the West Coast. Listen, if you hop on a plane or hop in a vehicle, you know, we'll carve out a few minutes for you to come up and address the people. We've got, you know, we've got, we've got Palestinian, you know, I definitely see no harm in adding Nancy Zionist to the... Hop on high-speed rail. Oops, we're in America. Yeah.

Yeah, if you become governor, first things first, you got to make sure we get that rail. High speed. Look, universal health care, single-payer is the number one. thing. Housing first. Housing is a human right. So housing first means nobody gets seconds until everybody eats except for housing, right? If you have private equity firms that have vacant properties, we're taxing the shit out of them so that they sell them back to the state and we are giving people affordable housing. So it's housing, health care, and human rights for everybody. And so that's the fight that we're fighting. Y'all are most welcome to come through to our big party.

Absolutely. Well, Dr. Ware, thank you so much for coming through to our podcast. we really, really enjoyed speaking with you. Please come back anytime. And man, do I hope you win? I love the idea of you winning the governorship of California, it being the third largest economy, like, in the world or something like that. This is our equivalent to like the, to fleece bank robbery of, like, 1907. Like, not to say you're Stalin, but to say, hey, you got to.

spend money and make money, you know? If you think that Mamdani freaked them out, you know, and let me just be clear. Like, I want to say this too because, you know, I'm anti-capitalist, but commerce and capitalism ain't the same thing. When we get universal health care in the state of California, businesses are going to flock to the state of California because General Motors spends more money on health care than they spend on steel for their vehicles. That's right.

That if you actually just show up in service for the people instead of behold into specific corporate interests, then you are going to be able to. to have not just a thriving economy, but people talk about California's economic power, but they forget that California has the highest rates of wealth inequality of any state in the union and was tied with Louisiana for the highest rates of poverty. 186 billionaires in the state of California and 187,000 people sleep on the streets every night. That's got to stop, and I'm here to stop it. Well, very excited for you.

Please come back anytime. Dr. Butchware, it really was a pleasure. Thank you. The honor, privilege, and pleasure was all mine, guys. And I got to go run to teach a class, but thanks for everything. Teacher class. And we're saying bye now. So we'll just say, thank you, everyone, for listening.

Patreon.com slash bad asbarra. Bad as barra at gmail.com for all your questions, comments and concerns. All right. Thanks for listening. And until next time, from the river to the sea. Let's heal this shit, y'all, by all means necessary. Hey to the men. Palestine will be free.

Oh, Indian. Jumping jacks was us. Push-ups was us. Godmaga us, all karate us, taking Molly us, Michael Jackson us, Yamaha keyboards, us, charge of a mix on us, and our endless press success.