Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - 239: Interview With The Empire, with Julian Andreone

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

Matt and Daniel welcome Drop Site Capitol Hill Reporter Julian Andreone to talk about whose walking talk walks the walk, and who’s all talk.Please donate to HEAL Palestine: https://www.healpalestine.org/Join the Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/c/badhasbaraSubscribe to the Substack at https://badhasbara.substack.com/Get a Youtube Membership at https://www.youtube.com/@Badhasbara/membershipSubscribe to Drop Site: https://www.dropsitenews.com/subscribeJulian Substack: https://julianandreone.substack.com/Julian on X: https://x.com/JulianAndreoneJulian on IG: https://www.instagram.com/thejulianandreone/Middle School Mysteries: https://middleschoolmysteries.com/Middle School Mysteries Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/79Qk5dGLT31Y7Jte40nmNB?si=USQ380kJRA2Zz1PL9j2_TAMiddle School Mysteries Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/album/middle-school-mysteries-original-studio-cast-recording/6813827235Middle School Mysteries IG: https://www.instagram.com/middleschoolmysteriesmusical/TICKETS: Bassem Youssef with Matt Lieb October 10 in Los Angeles: https://www.ticketmaster.com/bassem-youssef-the-belly-of-the-los-angeles-california-10-10-2026/event/0900646CF90AFB88TICKETS: Francesca Fiorentini and Matt Lieb October 13 in Philadelphia: https://www.ticketmaster.com/francesca-fiorentini-matt-lieb-philadelphia-pennsylvania-10-13-2026/event/020064D7D1615517TICKETS: The Bitchuation Room with Francesca Fiorentini and guest Matt Lieb October 14 in Philadelphia: https://www.livenation.com/event/vvG1FZ_uLomA9S/francesca-fiorentini-the-bitchuation-room-liveTICKETS: Matt Lieb and Francesca Fiorentini October 15 in Brooklyn, NY: https://bit.ly/octoberbellhouseBad Hasbara Merch: https://estoymerchandise.com/collections/bad-hasbara-podcastWhat’s The Spin on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/50JoIqCvlxL3QSNj2BsdURWhat’s The Spin: Part 2: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3rGDqmo1trC8qwobefELSt?si=e29b8594e17c47dbWhat’s The Spin on Tidal: https://tidal.com/playlist/3cec7963-1fc5-42bc-ab7d-64fb420eb50eWhat’s The Spin Album List: https://bit.ly/whatsthespinlistSkad Skasbarska playlist: http://bit.ly/skadskasbarskaSubscribe/listen to Bad Hasbara wherever you get your podcasts.Spotify https://spoti.fi/3HgpxDmApple Podcasts https://apple.co/4kizajtSubstack https://substack.com/@badhasbaraPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

America deserved 9-11 and welcome to Bad Hasbara. The world's most no argument for me podcast. My name is Matt Lieb. I will be your most moral co-host for this podcast. I'm Daniel Mate. Sick. I'm your other most moral co-host. Is there anything you want to say to me, man?

Oh, I forgot. I needed to say this one. I thought it was going to be something else. I should have. I should have. What I meant to say is, happy birthday to Daniel Mote. Happy birthday, Daniel. Thanks, man. Is your birthday today? It's today that we're recording this, yes. Yeah, Monday, September 28th. Oh, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. I'm, you know, I'm so happy. I wish I could send you a cake. I mean, I could. Well, you could, but no need because I made my own.

You made your own cake? Yeah. This is my What's the Spoon. So that's Chicken. Paprakash. I made my own birthday feast and I had people over. That's not a cake. I just want to point out. That is chicken paprikash. Okay, okay. Delicious paprika chicken stew. And then here's the cake. That's my grandma Judy's chocolate nut tort. Oh my gosh. That looks like a delicious chocolate nut. What kind of nuts? What kind of nuts we're talking about? I used walnuts and Brazil nuts and I chopped them. I ground them with a knife. Like I cut them up. I didn't use a food process or anything. I chocolate. That's what it looks like on the inside of the layers. Here's my mom serving it to me.

Oh my gosh. Look at this. This is so cute. Yeah. It's funny to make your own feast and your own cake and then have your mother serve it to as if she made it for you. It was very sweet. I think it's every little boy's dream. And then my friend Aya made me this cup, which I had my coffee in this morning. I love it.

I love it. Happy birthday to you. That is really beautiful. So everyone please in the comments, make sure to say, happy birthday to our. nice young boy. You don't look a day over 35. I'm Benjamin buttoning it. A couple of years. I'm going to pass you on the downslope. Oh, yes. You're already there, dog. I look like shit. Give us five stars in a review for, you know, this. If you're listening slash watching this, be like, man, this deserves five stars and a review. So we should do that. Make sure to do that. Make sure to

subscribe patreon.com slash bad hasbara you get yourself a bonus episode also at the $10 or more tier you get your name in the credits that's right so those of you are already subscribed either on patreon or on substack or on uh you know the members page uh you don't you don't have to stop there why stop there when you can give more money for a name at end right you know what I'm saying don't stop Pledging on the Patreon. Don't stop giving us some money. But, you know, do that.

We will soon break even. So, yes, please do that. Happy birthday to my dog. You know, hey, make it a birthday present. Be like, here's, you know, here's my subscription. Happy birthday. And, yeah, if you are going to be at, in Los Angeles on October. 10th. I will be at the Will Turn opening up for Bassam Yusuf. That's going to be a really fun show.

That's Saturday, October 10th, go to the description for the ticket link. And then 13th and 14th, I'll be at the Philly Punchline with my wife. And then the 15th, that's October 15th, I'll be at the Bell House in Brooklyn. And Daniel, your album came out. It did, but I'll save that for this. Let's save that. We're going to save that. And while saving that, I'm going to let you know today's sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by Heal Palestine.

Heel Palestine is a non-political, non-religious, U.S. registered nonprofit, founded in 2024 to deliver urgent relief and long-term support to Palestinian children and families. Heal provides critical care and resources while centering grassroots leadership and community. led recovery. Their work is rooted in dignity, resilience, and the belief that every child deserves the chance to heal and thrive. If you have some money to give, we urge you right now to click the link in the description or go to heal palestine.org. That's H-E-A-L-P-A-L-E-S-T-I-N-E.org. Do it now. They need your money more than we do. Daniel? Yes, sir. Vost-I-S-E-S. thus spleen.

Well, look, you said that people want to wish me a head birthday, they can pledge, you know, they can become Patreon members. Sure. I'd say that'd be my third tier preference. My first tier is that you go donate to Heal Palestine or any of the other sponsors that we, or the organizations that we try to raise awareness about, whether it's the Samir Project or Heel Palestine

or any of these other worthy organizations. That would mean a lot to me if you would direct your resources that way. Number two, though, would be to check out what is the spin today? And I don't have vinyl yet, but I will in a few months because we don't have physical copies. But ladies and gentlemen,

it finally happened. My musical, Middle School Mysteries, is finally on Spotify, Apple Music, title, QBaws, Amazon,

and all of them. And that's how it looks. It's a very attractive logo and it's going great. The kids are so excited. I wanted to just give you guys, I've shared about it a lot. Yeah,

middle school mysteries. com is the web, I want to just share a brief social media reel that our team made. Please. This is basically the, this covers the kids from the very first read-through of the show through the final recording in the booth, which only happened over the course of like a week and a half. They learned the stuff very quickly.

But this will basically, this is them learning the opening number and then recording it. Case just waiting to crack. Middle School Mysteries. Scene A case just waiting to crack. Wednesday. Another day on the mean streets of Philip Marlow Middle School for Rick Taylor P.I. Go. Being middle school.

Oh, yeah. And a. Being a fool. Partner in crime can do it solo all of the time. When it comes to you. You-hoo. Come on for size. Because it sure beats working alone.

Oh, I love it. I think cute. He's closed. Daniel, I love it so much. Isn't that? Adorable? It's so adorable. It really is a great musical.

It brings back also wonderful memories of you and I in Jordan, driving around. Driving from Wadi Rum to Akaba. That's right. Man, really great and really proud of you. It's so funny. I think about a couple of years ago when we did the Christmas special and the way that I wrote your character was very real to the situation where you're just like, man, this fucking podcast has taken over my life. And I haven't even finished my, my musical.

What was it? Hot Shots, the musical. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Slapshot, the musical. Slapshot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. It's really great stuff, man. Well, it's really, really satisfying to put it out there. I'm so proud of everyone who worked on it. And yeah, if people want to wish me happy birthday, I would really appreciate you going to any streaming platform, listening to it, and leaving a comment about what your favorite song is,

what your favorite moment was, what your favorite rhyme was. I wrote the whole thing except for the story and characters and dialogue was co-written with my friend Marshall, but book, music, lyrics, orchestrations by me, and these kids and these musicians just, I love collaborating. That's what I love about this podcast. It's a collaboration. It's what I love about musical theater. So anyway, thank you for checking that out.

And then, of course, if you got any money left over after all of that shit, sign up for Patreon. Sign up for Patreon. And, yeah, buy physical copies once it comes out. Yeah, I'll be sure to plug them. Yeah. I love it. It's like these are the things that we do outside of this podcast, you guys. We're whole people.

Although there's part of me that's like, what would I bring to show to the show and tell portion of the podcast? And it would just be me singing. my parody version of space oddity. Pounded hole to Major Come. And, you know, but that's my art, you know. That's what I do. This is pounded hole to Major Come. All right.

You know what? You've nearly made me gay. Sorry, Piggy. It's another last episode of Bad Asbarra. So that is what's spinning in the Monte household. And now it is time to introduce our guest. Very excited about this guest. I've been following his work for a while.

The way he does journalism, the way he gets some answers from those in power who refuse to answer questions. He's Capitol Hill's official sleep demon. That's right. You know him as a journalist for DropSight News. Ladies and gentlemen and everyone else, welcome to the podcast. Julian Andrioni. Hey guys, how's it going? Thanks for having me.

It's going great. It's going great to have you. Daniel, happy birthday. I did not know about that. And congratulations on the musical. That was awesome. I enjoyed watching the kids singing in their quartets and recording studio. That looked like a pretty advanced recording studio.

I grew up in a musical family and it looks, that looks legit. It was the first recording studio I've ever been in, if you can believe it. Like, I've spent all this time. But it was quite a nice one. It was in the Lower East Side. It's called Second Story Sound. They do a really nice job there. Awesome.

Well, congratulations on that. And Matt, congratulations on your parody, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got even more lyrics, but you guys are going to have to go to Patreon for them. Julian, thank you, first and foremost, for coming on this podcast. We really appreciate it. Tell people and us a little bit about your work. You are a journalist who was known for.

going up to people on the hill in Washington, D.C., and asking them the tough questions that they don't seem to be getting anywhere else. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got started doing this? And can you speak a little about the ethics of asking politicians' questions they don't expect? Well, I can get to all of that. I think I got started in this. I went to school for journalism, And there was a program through my university where they sent roughly 10 to 15 kids per quarter up to Capitol Hill to go and do the work. It was an immersive program, do the work of a Capitol Hill correspondent. And I think a lot of kids went in there and were sort of trying to fulfill the requirements of the program as they were written on the website. So you file five stories.

You go to committees. You file an enterprise story. For me, at the time, I didn't really see. myself being a journalist. I was more interested in working in politics. And so I fulfilled the requirements of the program, but I also used it primarily to build relationships. I waited in the halls for people who I was interested in. I wanted to build a relationship with Bernie Sanders. I wanted to build a relationship with Elizabeth Warren. I was cautiously curious about people like Josh Hawley. And so, and John Ossoff was another one. He was quite young at the time,

but it's looking like that relationship that I was looking for is going to maybe prove to be quite notable in the coming years. So I would sit there in the Senate subway. There's a subway system that takes the senators from their offices to the floor or to the Capitol building proper. Is it covered in graffiti? It is not. It's highly restricted, actually.

Strom Thurman was here? Yeah. So you're saying there's no one taking a shit in it? No. That's too bad. Yeah. I think many people would agree. Other than Mitch McConnell, I mean, of course.

Perhaps. It's the only subway system where the rats actually sit on the seats. They're not scurrying. That's exactly. Yeah, so no, I used to just camp out down there. And one of the days that I was camping out down there, you know, one of the things I did was the night before I would go, I read the politician's books. And so I read Bernie Sanders book in full.

I read Elizabeth Warren's book in full. And then I would ask them questions about specific parts of their book in the middle of the book. It was a type of due diligence that I don't think they had seen from the reporters who would years later be asking them about Hassan Piker and transgender athletes and whatnot. And so I was asking about substantive things about things that had happened to them. It drew their attention. And from there, I sort of made a bunch of connections. One of the connections I made was with Ryan Grimm, who's now my boss. We were in the hallway together and I was interviewing Bernie and because I had built that rapport in that relationship, I think Bernie was saying something to me that maybe he wouldn't have said to another reporter. He was being like open and candid. And Ryan picked it up on his recording and posted it on social media, but tagged me in the bottom, gave me credit. I was a student reporter. I was 19 years old. I got, I probably had 200, 300 followers on Twitter. But when, you know, I write about this in this article that I have coming out, it's a personal narrative.

What was he saying? I'm more of an ass man. A lot of people like big tits. No, Julian, I am going to say something that some people might consider a vulnerable thing for a man to mind, but the fundamentally, I trust you.

And so I'm going to tell you. Yeah, yeah. I have never seen the appeal of two hunkin milkers. Not my favorite, but to each their own. I'm sorry, go ahead, Julian. He, he, he, it was something about politics. Okay, all right. Okay, that's fair. That makes more sense. But, yeah, no, he, Ryan picked it up on his recording, posted it, and gave me credit.

And I write about this in this article that I have coming out in current affairs. It's a personal narrative that Nathan Robinson, the editor-in-chief there asked me to write about my time up on Capitol Hill and about some of the bureaucratic resistance that we've faced about some of the issues that we've had, but also some of the triumphs and the strategy that goes into creating a product that has been consumed the way ours has. And what I wrote about is that when you get someone of that stature or of that level of notability to tag you as a student reporter, you get a ton of traffic. And so a lot of people started to pay attention to me, not just people on the ground, but people that were in D.C. circles that would be professionally beneficial to me. So I really appreciated Ryan for that. And I told him that when I was around that age, we followed each other and stayed in brief touch.

you know, every once in a while we would message. But I was working at More Perfect Union during my junior year of college before I graduated. That's the, you know, another independent media organization run by Fas Shakir, one of Bernie's top advisors. And I was doing sort of like Swiss Army Knife Research and Writing work for them, just going around, finding sources, writing scripts, producing videos. And I pitch the idea of what I'm doing now to More Perfect Union. They had one vision for it.

I pitched the idea of what I'm doing now to Ryan. He had one vision of it. We thought about potentially coming together on it, but Ryan's vision sort of aligned with my own, and it moved forward quite quickly. And so it was a difficult decision to leave more perfect union, but I joined Ryan in January. And since then, I've been up there pretty much every day that they're in session. I go to committee hearings in the morning around 10 a.m. Senate committee hearings, you're allowed to film in the hallways of the office buildings

in the Senate. It's highly restrictive the way that the filming rules work in the Senate, which is something I also write about in this article. But yeah, no, just going through the halls and waiting in the places where I know they're going to be. I think one of the biggest things is like learning the man, not the game, knowing who moves in what ways, which paths they take to the places they're going,

who takes the stairs, who takes the elevator. Physically. And also, and also, yeah. You're like a manna offence, not zone. Right, right. You're like some sort of super stocker. I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, it really is. You know, there are some people who I talk to every day. I think a lot of people see my interviews with AOC or people like that. I know where they're going to be, when they're going to be there. I'm sometimes, I think, thinking about the route that they're going to take before they start thinking about it. Well, I want to place some of your work for people. This is a super cut of just some of the, I guess, best of the interviews that you've done. on here, here you go.

It's on the Pentagon reclassifying Israel as a critical level threat, a counterintelligence threat. I didn't see that story. In the New York Times this weekend? I don't read the New York Times cover to cover every weekend. You know, sometimes I'm with my children. Drop Sites Capitol Hill correspondent Julian Andrione here. It shouldn't be a surprise that Israel is spying on American officials.

Would you consider someone who's bugging our Secret Service vehicles and spying on our White House officials' phones to be an ally? I mean, it's absolutely aggressive behavior for sure. Yeah, the White House denied. Hold on a second, pause. I'm sorry. That was a. For those listening.

That's just something comical. It's almost out of a fake documentary. She's like, that's very aggressive behavior for sure. Turns away passive aggressively in the middle of the answer. Yeah. Sorry. I don't know if it's just me. No, no.

Her face when she realizes what the question is. Yeah. Yeah, no, this is a theme that I see is the face when people realize what the question is. Here's, is this Randy Fine? Jesus Christ. You believe that. He must be easy to find. I'm just kidding.

Well, actually, as of quite recently, he's told me that, quote, he doesn't want to talk to me about anything. So I haven't had interviews with him recently. This was in the last month or so, maybe two months. He's told me he doesn't want to talk to me about anything. Oh, yeah, no, it's a messy breakup. But, you know, sometimes when you go from sixth to eighth grade, a lot changes, and then we can kind of try to repair it. That's right.

Bodies change, you know. That's right. Oh, everything. Yeah. Middle school mysteries, available now. Yeah. Well, they're our best ally in the world. I didn't see it.

You didn't see that at all in your time. No. I'm not going to make comments prior to understanding the full scope of, you know, exactly what it's Wesley Bell. Do you think that all of this money that APAC and other pro-Israel donors are pouring into your race is equivalent to bribery? Is it quid pro quo?

These folks are trying to send a message. This is talk to Nancy again. Which is, if you're a Republican, you better do whatever Israel wants. You're here and I've talked to you many times, haven't you? It's Wesley Bell again. Nancy Mace. use that data and information, they've been a good military partner for us. It's super important because Israel is on the cutting edge of a lot of great technology.

Ronnie Jackson. And all this does is basically create an opportunity to work closely with Israel. I'm closely in Atlanta with my leader. So I'm sorry, this, I forget his name, but this is the person. Shri Thanadar. Yeah, he's out of Michigan, correct? Yeah. And he's secretly 157 years old.

But he looks, you know, 30. He just recently lost. He just recently lost his primary. His primary, yeah. But I had never seen this guy until he lost his primary. And I was just like, man, this feels, I mean, I'm not, listen, I can't tell who's had work done and who hasn't had work done. But he's got this sort of work done face that I find kind of incredible. He's a fascinating character.

Yeah. Yeah. He really is. Yeah. Look, we ask our politicians. to do the work, and then when they get work done, we make fun of them. That's right. I'm doing the work.

And what about with your base? Yeah. What about with your face? I fight terrorism. 74% of the Democratic voting base supports cutting off all economic ties with Israel. You're going to side with Leader Jeffries or the voting base on that. I'm with Leader Jeffries on this one. I believe it's in our national interest to have a democracy in the Middle East,

and I will not be voting on the Massey Amendment. You believe Israel is a democracy? it's the only liberal rockers in the Middle East. Oof, that ketamine is not sitting well with her on that morning. She's sipping that water for dear life. Yeah, she's in that. Puffin and puffing. K-hole hangover.

So, Julian, I've seen a lot of these you know, walk-and-talk interviews that you've done. In terms of who is the most forthcoming, I'm always kind of surprised, although

maybe I shouldn't be, that it always seems like Thomas Massey is going to answer your question, I guess, in full. I could be wrong about that, maybe, but who in your opinion is the most like forthcoming person that you coroner on the street? Yeah, it's, it's Thomas Massey, Ilhan Omar, and Rashida Tili. Those are the ones who don't give a fuck. The ones who don't have anything to lose, or at least they're not afraid of losing it. Yeah. Those are the people who, when you, have the camera on and when you have the camera off, they speak to you the same way. Wow.

Their intonation doesn't change. Bernie's like that too, but Bernie, you know, on the cameras, he's got his, he's got his, he's very disciplined on his message. He's got his talking points. He's going to say the same things. These people, I mean, when I talk to Thomas off camera, it sounds exactly the same. There are politicians up on Capitol Hill who are quite transparent politically and have policies that I think a lot of us would find to be honorable and consistent with what a representative

democracy is supposed to be, which is like helping people and like raising the basic standard of dignified living for working people who even though they are checking boxes in that department, when you turn the camera on, they assume, I think subconsciously in some cases this politician speak where they kind of puff their shoulders up a little bit and act like they're giving a floor speech. And I think it's actually a really unique skill that people like Tom. and Ilhan are paying off or is paying off for them on platforms like mine where people feel like they are a party to the conversation if somebody is speaking like they're in an actual conversation.

And what do you notice about what happens to people when it turns to this particular topic that our podcast is about, you know, because someone like AOC, she's someone who, you know, when I listen to her speak, when she's speaking on domestic issues that she's, that she's where she's really strong in hearings, where she can question people, where she's up on the stuff, she can be very persuasive, very convincing, and at least affect a real genuineness and a genuine passion. When it turns to foreign policy, I see this, I see fear come into her eyes, and all of a sudden her words are coming out in solid form.

Do you notice this, generally speaking? Like, what is the vibe shift when Israel-Palestime? comes up or foreign policy more generally. Well, I think for most of them, it's actually a different, for a different reason than what you pointed out there with AOC. She doesn't take money from the Israel lobby. She doesn't. So I wouldn't say, I think for most people, it's because they're bribed, you know,

within our system, they're bribed legally. And I always say that because I don't want to, you know, get sued or whatever. It's, but like, for example, you know, if in our law, it said officially starting today, it is legal to murder someone and you went up and shot somebody on the street and you didn't go to jail for it, it would still be murder, it would just be legal, you know, just because it's codified in the law doesn't mean the definition of the word changes. And so it is still bribery if somebody contributes money to you and you vote in their best interest 100% of the time. That's bribery. It's pay for play, quid pro quo. And so just by the definition, it defies the English language to

say it's not. Of course, it's codified and legal and there's been a Supreme Court. case about it, but just based on the objective reality of the word and the English language, that is bribery. And so for the most part, 505 out of 538 members of Congress, that's 94%, I believe, have taken pro-Israel lobbying checks or campaign contributions at some point in their career, whether that's from J Street or APEC or whatever. And of course, there's tons of variance between those groups, but for the most part, they represent the interests of the Israeli government as it pertains to their relationship with the United States government. And so if you've taken any money from those groups at all, you're going to feel some degree of pressure on that issue.

That's one thing. AOC has not. Right. She's tended to a different kind of pressure. I am not one of her advisors. I am not tapped in with her inner circle. But my read on it is, because I have noticed that the way that she answers questions when it's about something that's in her wheelhouse tends to be different than the way that she answers questions when she's not. And I think sometimes it is foreign policy issues that can get her out of her comfort zone. And I think that what that is is a couple things. Number one, she's in a position right now where she's eyeing higher office. And I think that she is in a headspace in Washington, D.C., where she is conflating disapproval within the building or political consensus within the building for disapproval

or political consensus across the country. So if 500 people within the Capitol building or a thousand people, if you include stappers and aides and whatever, look at you sideways because you're speaking a certain way about a certain issue, and you extrapolate that treatment throughout the day that you feel in an anecdotal sense, where you're just constantly getting dirty looks and you're constantly getting political pressure or, and you say, this is how people feel about me when I say this thing, and you make a generalization. And then you go out into communities and you're supposed to message to those communities.

You don't want a town hall of a thousand people to look at you that way or think about you that way, especially if they're voters. And so you adjust your messaging or you start to overthink it. That's one thing. Number two is I think that there is a political calculation going on that we've seen with her sometimes

with regard to leadership, which is Jeffries, Pelosi, Greg Meeks, where I think that she is a politician who plays within the system. Some people would say that's the way to go. I think maybe Bernie would say that's the way to go. I think people like Graham Platner or perhaps like me would say that sometimes it's more useful to challenge the system and attack the system and become a pariah. You know who else would say that as candidate AOC who said she was going to

to bring the ruckus to the Democratic Party. She says, I don't think they like me. I think I annoy them. And I don't care because that's what I'm going to Capitol Hill to do. That's the standard I judge her by, at least in the sense of trying to get a sense of, is this someone whose fervency and sincerity is actually genuine and sincere? That's true. That's the part that concerns me is that the way she sold herself explicitly was, I am the

fucking firebrand who's going to be. to take a torch to this country because this party in Europe would be a right-wing party and, you know, so on and so forth. And then she gets, you know, and immediately Nancy is Mama Bear and all that. That's, uh, she has a very different staff around her now than she did then. Okay. It seems like that's a big thing. I mean, you've mentioned this a couple of times. The, who is surrounding these, uh, people? It's not just the, you know, 500 other members of Congress who are going to look at you sideways. But it's also the, the staff. It's also the press pool. It's, you know, and it's, it's everyone else who's in the

building with them. And I want to ask about that as it pertains to the journalists, such as yourself, there's this kind of, you know, contentious relationship that's kind of played between, I guess, journalists and elected officials. And I have trouble a little bit believing that there's too many journalists like you. And by like you, I mean, who are going to ask actual questions about, you know, America's greatest ally Israel to these people because they seem to be like how many other journalists are there asking these questions? Or is, are you just like, is it just you and Ryan Grimm? And then everyone else is just going, hey, good job. And Jeremy Skaill, when a politician is really unlucky.

Sure, yeah. Jeremy, Jeremy. How many U's are there? Jeremy's got some fire. I, I, the bomb.

Yeah, that was, that was a hell of an interview. And I think Roe, I think, actually handled it quite, I just, it's a really tough situation. I give credit to Roe for keeping as cool during it because-

He stayed in the dunk tank. Yes, yes. And he and, and did not shun me off afterwards or drop-side-out. at all, in fact. Yeah, which is really, I think that is deserving of some credit. And that is the way that he conducts himself. He's somebody who exercises the muscle of confrontation goes on a bunch of different shows.

If you're looking to pursue higher office, I think going and meeting with people everywhere, whether that's, you know, being on Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, doing profiles in the Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, or going on podcast. with 10,000 subscribers, 20,000, 17 million. Go on Tucker. Go on everything. Go on. Go on bad as barra. Go on bad as barra. But by contrast, AOC hasn't done an adversarial interview since she's been elected, basically. She rose to prominence on the strength of independent interviews on podcasts. And since then, she goes places that she knows. I don't mean you. I mean, I will say that the most, the most times I actually see her answering a question is from

these kind of walk and talk type of interviews. And I have a little bit of trouble believing that this is not part of a concerted PR strategy, not just with her, but with also a lot of other people. But again, I want to ask this like chum, this hostile relationship is it actually when the cameras are off, is it a lot chumier? And is there only like a couple of Julian Andrioni's out there? Or are there others that we just don't know? Yeah, I mean, Prem Tucker from Zateo is good.

and he's up there a lot with me. I actually have been impressed by the TMZ guys. Yeah, of course they, they, they, and those guys I'm, you know, the sentence I never thought I'd hear. I know, it's weird, but they just started their DC, like, content office. And I've been like relatively surprised by the questions they actually ask people. Part of the reason why they are good is actually because of the people who, so they have Jacob Wasserman and Charlie Cotton, those two are earnestly curious people.

They actually care about the politics. And they're trying to operate within the structure that TMZ is. And they're trying to ask questions that are entertainment based because they have an audience that demands a certain type of content. But they have embraced a challenging style of questioning for people who are betraying their constituencies. And I really admire that. But for the most part, to get to your point,

Capitol Hill and Washington, D.C., more broadly, is, it's a country club. People, even those who are not being bribed or getting financial benefits from it, derive purpose and thus form their identities based on being an insider or being accepted. A lot of them have the same approach that I described earlier regarding extrapolating the way that they're treated in the building and applying it writ large or internalizing it and saying this is how people perceive me. In that building, if you go up against the grain, you're going to be a pariah. I write about this again. Not to plug the article, but it is relevant. I write about this in the personal narrative that I wrote for current affairs, which is that there are bureaucratic, there is bureaucratic resistance when you go up against the grain.

Will you lose your press pass if you go, if you do it too much? Mine has been, mine has been threatened, but for, but, but behind the veil of a different reason. So, so, so it'll be, you filmed the back half of this video in a stairwell, which is not allowed. and that'll be the entry-level complaint. And then the rest of the interview is, do you want to be an ambush journalist or an enterprise journalist? You know, that type of thing.

So when they realized that... Jesse, you're in the journalism business. I'm in the enterprise business. Right. And actually, this is something that happened to Jank Uyghur when he left MSNBC and started the Young Turks. He went into... This was during the Iraq War.

and, you know, the, the head of MSNBC at the time called him into the office and said, you have to stop criticizing Democrats. There are college campus hippies out there who do that, and they serve a purpose within the party, but you're an MSNBC anchor, and Jank walked out and quit. And there are not too many people who would give up their primetime corporate media show that is watched by everyone in Washington, and you go into, restaurants and they place you in the they place you in the private booth and people are coming up to you and asking for photos and you have access to every politician you're on the phone and talking to

them and texting them all day people wouldn't give up access to that easily he did um and i and i aspire to approach this environment the same way there are journalists on capital hill um who i will not name but who who are it's but it's pretty obvious who i'm talking about i think who work for corporate media outlets and are prospering in the media ecosystem because of their access. So politicians will walk up to them and say, do you have anything for me? And they'll get their clip. Whereas I, it's the reverse for me. I'm chasing those people to try to get the clip.

Those people are coming to them to get PR. That is not journalism, though. That's stenographizing. And that's actually worse than stenographizing. it's propagandizing because stenographizing would say would be saying here are the events that are happening

propagandizing is let me give you somebody's narrative about what events are happening you can be a neutral stenographer that's just writing down facts whereas like this is people who are actively looking for a PR angle on whatever the thing is that the politician is pitched.

Those people are beholden to the same corporate interest that the politicians are beholden They work for outlets like, and this is not referencing the specific journalist I was talking about on Capitol Hill necessarily, but outlets like CNN and NBC and, you know, Politico. These are places that are owned by corporate interests. They have advertisers that are from private industry. So, for example, you never hear CNN or NBC talk about the popularity of Medicare for All. There was a poll in the fall of November of 2025 that said the 65 percent of America. Democrats, Republicans, and independents want universal health care. But you never hear about that on CNN or MSNBC, MSNMN, or MSNBC. Why? Because when you go to the commercial break, what are the

commercials? They're drug commercials. So they get all their money and their ad revenue from the pharmaceutical industry, from the drug companies. And then their conglomerates are people like Larry Ellison, who are the largest donors in history to the friends of the IDF. They own a surveillance tech company. And so they are the people who are appointing the members of the editorial board who oversee the editors, who oversee the journalists. And the anchors, if they want to rise up professionally and get a position of professional prestige, be the Dana Bash, be the Jake Tapper. You cannot go up against those interests or you will not be appointed by those executives who are in charge. That plays a role on Capitol Hill. When the Graham Platiner scandal was going on before the Politico article about the alleged rape, and it was just the tattoos and the Reddit posts, there were corporate media journalists up there who I watched go up to Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders every day to ask them, will you denounce or will you condemn Graham Platner who you endorse for his tattoo or for his Reddit posts?

what they don't do is go up to Mike Collins or any of these Republican candidates for Congress whose campaign staffers are seen pictured online wearing Ku Klux Klan outfits, saying that they are Nazis themselves. They don't actually, you have to understand this. And I don't mean you. I mean the third person you. They don't actually care about anti-Semitism, about bigotry, about corruption, about anything. They are trying to use those issues as vehicles.

about sexual violence, about rape. They don't care about those things at all. They're using those issues in anecdotal circumstances as vehicles to smear people they don't like or who would challenge the economic or geopolitical status quo. That is not journalism. Right. And it's very clear. I mean, you know, you just have to look to now, you know, that Graham Platner's out of

the picture. It's very clear they're doing a similar thing with Hassan, where they have been talking about Hassan Piker, you know, unendingly for. I mean, I've lost count of the months. You know, they're in this closed ecosystem, it seems like, in D.C. where they are, you know, surrounded by people who believe something that, you know, the vast majority of Americans don't believe. Like, they're the only people in this country who are exposed to a bunch of political beliefs,

whether it be anti-Medicare for all beliefs or pro-Israel beliefs, they're surrounded by them. This is a statistical bubble that they live in. Is there any sense you get that they are, that they at least somewhat weigh the feelings of everybody else? I mean, it's one thing if they weigh them equally. It's like, well, I have to consider the 500, you know, other. representatives who believe genocide is good or whatever. But do they even lend, is there any bit of them that understands the world outside? Among members of corporate media, really know.

A lot of them, a lot of them, you know, a lot of these younger journalists actually don't realize the world that they're in because they haven't been confronted by the power structures yet. they're at such a low level that the editors can edit out the stuff that they don't want. And it'll... But what they're experiencing outside of work? I mean, Matt, they went to the... No, Matt, they went... This is what their education was for.

This is what their journalism education was for. This is what Tromsky always said. You don't get to the progressive... You don't get to the successive levels of power and access. If you haven't already fully internalized and filtered out anything that would challenge the basic premises. And the higher you go, the more of that you have to do. Yeah.

So that's really relevant because I went to, this is where I kind of got this perspective from that I have that's, I guess I'm learning quite unique here, is I went to Medill, which is Northwestern's journalism school. It's like the best journalism school is what they'll say, right? Medill. Yeah. I went to McGill. Oh, okay. McGill in Canada. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is M-E-D-I-L-L. named after Joseph Medill, who started the school. He's a journalist. But everybody at that school is coached in a way to aspire to be the Walter Cronkite or to aspire to be the Bob Woodward.

And if they don't do that, they're told to go into local news. The principals that they teach you at Medill, and I'm grateful for my time there, I really am, there's so many great professors. but all of the professors are our former corporate media journalists because the media ecosystem is just now changing. So all of the people who were successful enough to become professors at the best journalism school all came from places that had an audience, which is the corporate media companies.

They are teaching. Take the word objectivity, for example, right? That's something that's spoken about a lot in journalism school. It's spoken a lot about in the media profession more broadly. But the understanding of the word objectivity is totally warped in D.C. They think that objectivity is the position in the middle of the political spectrum as it's understood in Washington, D.C. You've got establishment left and establishment right. You're supposed to be right in the middle and give 50% airtime to each of them, present a story that gives you both sides.

The word objective, the word objective means consistent with reality or the truth. If one side of an argument is saying the sky is blue and the other side of the argument saying the sky is neon green, unless you're up at the northern lights, there is one side that is telling the truth and there's one side that's not. And if you gave it 50-50 balance, you are not presenting an objective picture. And so in today's... Furthermore, if one side is saying the sky is neon green and the other one is saying, you know, I've been thinking a lot about the way we think about colors and hues, I just, you know, like there's... In the space, like, I just want to give voice to

and like hold space for a difference. Well, then neither of them should be listened to and we should just go outside and touch grass and look at the fucking sky. And we might need independent media to help us do that. Yeah. And that's, that's, that is how I see my point. purpose. People, you know, I had somebody email me. She's really sweet. And I, and I always say, I say yes to every coffee. So if somebody wants to email me and ask me to go to coffee and you live in DC, I, that's a little secret as I say yes to everything. You made a huge mistake telling that to everyone on our podcast. That's okay. I will, I will be there. Trust me, I'll be there. I love to every message. But, but this was a woman who worked for a consulting firm. And she goes, I just want to get your, I just want to get your perspective as someone who works in partisan media.

I love that. And I said, okay, let's go to coffee. And then when we were, I kind of ignored it the first time. Then when we were sitting at coffee, she said it again. And I said, you know, just to be perfectly clear, I don't see it as partisan. I actually, if you go on my social media and you look it up, I probably criticize Democrats more than Republicans. You know, the definition of the word partisan is the two parties, right?

So if I'm partisan, then I'm partisan, then. I guess I'm more Republican because I'm criticizing the Democrats more, but nobody would call me a Republican, I don't think. So I, they probably meant more like a partisan to the, you know, Iranian Republic. Oh, yeah. No, we get to call terrorists all the time too. I've never, people ask me like, whether I take money from Qatar and I'm like, I couldn't point to it. Yeah. I've read a lot from Dropside about it and I'm learning more about the Middle East. But like, if you put a map in front of me, like I'd get Iran, I'd get Israel. I'd get a couple around there, Jordan's. Syria, but like, they're asking, they're telling me I'm taking money from places where I've never

spoken to or met somebody from there, even a civilian. I mean, that's all just projection. Right. This is just something that people who get paid, uh, in order to spit out propaganda or like, well, certainly you're doing the same thing. Right. Right. That's, that's, you know, I, I, I think the, the, a lot of the journalists in D.C. are a part of this, like, machine, right? Like, there's this machine and all of the cogs are turning. And sometimes the cogs in the machine don't know that they're cogs in the machine. The person who's operating the machine knows that the cogs are servicing them. And so I think that there are journalists my age who are working for corporate media outlets,

and they have no clue that there will come a point in their career if they rise up high enough, that somebody will tell them that they're not allowed to report on something. Because they just can't believe that the way that they were taught in journalism school, that those outlets would be doing the exact opposite of what they think the purpose of journalism is. They also compounding that issue is that they haven't been exposed to communities that would anecdotally show them that those things are not true. I've been to 31 states. I'm 22 years old. I've seen people on the ground, met people on the ground. Well, in a second. You're 22 years old? I'm 22 years old.

You're very impressive young man. You're less than half my age. And you're standing up to fucking Nancy Mace, Jesus Christ. My instinct when I travel is I need to go to as many small businesses and as many far-out communities as possible to meet people and understand what's going on there because you can read a thousand articles, but you can only see it once on the ground. And a lot of these journalists don't put that to practice. What part of flyover country don't you understand, Julie? Yeah. What are you doing? Yeah.

Anyways, that's the point there is that the journalists are, a lot of them don't know, but of course, they're all contributing to this system that's brought us where we are. I guess, yeah, I mean, before I move on, just my point being, where I'm confused by it is the fact that I do think that there are also people who they know perfectly well what the consensus among the general public is about this stuff. and they're actively fighting it because they believe the opposite, but not because, you know, the not knowing for me is a bridge too far. I think that's only at the lowest, lowest levels. I'm talking about, like, people that are my age, like between, maybe before they get to the point of like 30. Then you're getting into a territory where they've run into the power structures

and they've continued to make the choice to be there at the expense of the American people. That's where you grow up from the callow, youthful, don't know, into and you leave. Sure, sophisticated, don't care. That's right. Think about somebody like Ryan Grit. He was at Politico. What did he do when he grew up and he realized what was going on? He left.

He became a real boy. Right. But I want to talk about this, you know, what happens to you when you get into a position of power and I'm a little bit concerned about it with regards to people like Abdul Al-Sayyad, who I, again, am someone who is hoping that he, wins and becomes a senator, not just in lieu of Mike Rogers, but also a senator who has expressed the actual views of, you know, a huge percentage of the population. It's nice to have our representatives representing us, at least in some way. He's getting flack for his being associated

with Hassan Piker. Meanwhile, he's recently done a pivot to being someone who will campaign with Kamala Harris. I want to play this video of something that kind of bummed me out regarding him, where he was asked about his position within the uncommitted movement and how it might be sort of contradictory to campaigning with someone like Kamala Harris. Here is that video. Can you explain what uncommitted was? What was it about?

Just to be clear, pause. And for those, for those listening and not watching, that is Abdul El-Said responding to a question with a question. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So someone has just asked him the thing Matt just summarized. And Abdul's response is, let me ask you a question. Yeah, yeah. What was uncommitted? Now I'm going to quiz you to find out how much you actually know.

Which, I mean, look, when he's doing this for other things, I have not been against it, especially some questions for the most part, you know, by, a really, I would say, biased media, do need to be recontextualized. The problem here is now we're going to see some spin as to what uncommitted actually meant. Who was the president we were uncommitted to? Is Vice President Harris the same as President Biden? Wait, wait, wait, wait, was Vice President Harris running for president at the time we were uncommitted? Yes.

At the fucking convention? Well, let's let's let him finish. fact-based question and then I'll answer your question. No, no, but who were we uncommitted to who was the actual leader of the presidential ticket? Who was that? Yes. So we were uncommitted to President Biden and then he did what? What did he do?

No, no, no, what did he do? You're asking a question based on false premises, so I'm just getting you to clarify your premise. What did he do? He dropped out of the race, correct? And then there was a new person running for president, right? So factually is the premise you're basing this question on actually a real premise? Thank you. So, you know, I look at that and I'm seeing him essentially chewing out someone for bringing up something that is, I think, fair.

It's a fair critique as to whether or not his position within the uncommitted movement is somehow clashes with him now being someone who will campaign with Kamala Harris. I don't think I go so far as others where I go like, oh, this is it. This is his inevitable heel turn towards pro-Israel sycophant or whatnot. But, you know, I do look at this as like an unfortunate like turn as part of his new strategy to like win this seat is I'm going to. going to start campaigning with Kamala Harris. Yeah, I see it as an unfortunate heel turn towards guy who will say anything to justify what his advisors have told him to do.

The fact is, and I want to hear your take on this, Julian, because you are a veteran of seeing politicians under pressure and how they cope and react. He's got a skill there. He's good at turning things around. But in this case, I seem to remember that at the Democratic National Convention, Kamala Harris was the nominee by that point. And AOC was on stage saying that she was working tirelessly for a ceasefire. While outside, there was a gathering of, I don't know how many, but there were a number of people on the street from the uncommitted movement. And they were joined, I think,

by Yilan Omar or certain other people. And a lot of Democratic National Convention attendees and operatives and apparatchiks walked by them and shrugged their shoulders. and laughed and whatever. I seem to remember that. Yeah, and Joe Biden was not the nominee at that point. So what do you make of this tactic by Elsaid and what it portends, if anything? Yeah, I mean, it's, you drew on the AOC thing.

It's sort of similar to the conversation we were having earlier, which is like Abdul doesn't take money from many of the pro-Israel lobbying groups or donors, yet in a number of ways, he is seeking to add color or nuance to an issue that maybe isn't that nuanced. I think that sometimes, you know, a good example of this is like John Ossoff voted for the Lake and Riley Act alongside Mark Kelly, Alyssa Slotkin, Ruben Gallego, a lot of people who

were, and maybe some who still are considering running for president in 2028 and Raphael Warnock as Well, all voted for the Lake and Riley Act. The Lake and Riley Act suspends due process. It legalizes racial profiling. It is an unconstitutional bill. But there were Democrats who voted for it. Why? Because they were afraid of the messaging surrounding immigration after the Biden years.

They didn't want to be seen as part of the open border problem. And so even though they knew and all of their legislative advisors were telling them that the bill is unconstitutional, they still voted in favor of it because they were afraid of the way that the base would react. based on the false premises that are constructed in Washington, D.C., consultants and advisors are telling them, people will think that you're for open borders if you don't vote for this bill. And instead of going onto the ground and asking their constituents, do you feel that way? They instead decided to take that advice at face value and vote in favor of a bill that's unconstitutional. That's one example. Now back to Abdul. Abdul is not going to switch his position on Gaza and Israel. I just don't.

don't think that's going to happen as it relates to being in Congress any material substantive vote on anything like that. I don't think he's going to change. But what he's trying to do here is he's been told by consultants and advisors, it seems, that he is pushing certain voters away by not acknowledging that there's an other side to the issue. It's the same thing that corporate media does. When in reality, within the Democratic base and now increasingly within the Republican base, and especially among independents, you're seeing everybody reject Israel and everybody reject what's going on on the ground. This is the thing that drives me crazy.

Moderating your position when you don't have to. But also even the word moderating. Moderating means doing the thing that's most popular, that is most widely accepted. DC has like contorted all these words. They have like a special dictionary. It's like what Stanford did when they created like the new dictionary of like all of the words that would be like woke. It's like you have to say like birthing person or whatever.

This is what DC does too. They're like, moderate is whatever people don't agree with, but that we do. It's like, wait, what? They're like, Joe Manchin is a moderate because he has all these policies that everybody hates, but we like them because we make money. It's like, that's moderate. Wait, so they do this thing over and over again. Now, this is what, like you said, this is what people like Aosoff and I guess now, Abdul.

I mean, I haven't seen that clip. And I guess I'll have to. He just did another interview where he talked about how, you know, October 7th was terrible and there are two sides and both sides have had drama. I mean, he's going out of his way to say the kinds of things that most staunch anti-Ginicide people would stop short of saying because they understand that they have political consequences that undermine the critique of the genocide. That it's actually, and I think it's, you know, it's interesting with regard to the October 7 stuff because it probably wouldn't be all that controversial to say in abstract, civilians dying in any context is bad. And because civilians died on October 7th, then October 7th was a bad thing. I think that's like a fair characterization. There were atrocities.

But there were atrocities. October 7th has become, though, a skeletal political tool to throw at any accusations of genocide or any sympathy with the Palestinians. And they now have contorted, like they did with the word anti-Semitism, they've contorted. They've contorted the events on the day of October 7th to be, and this is why it doesn't matter that innocent Palestine is like. And it's, again, it's your definition of moderated, you know, or the, you know, kind of corrupted definition of it where you can always tell when something is being touched by a person who's like, we need to moderate this, moderate this into something that is palpable to us, the ruling class. Ed Shearan is a perfect example of this when he's like, I finally am going to tell people what I think about things, yeah. And, you know, and here we go.

October 7th was the worst day in the history of the Jewish people. Which also isn't, that's amazing to me that they say that too because it's just not true. Well, right. Yeah, they say it's like the worst attack since the holiday. It's a bunch of like qualifiers as to why it's basically the Holocaust. But, you know, it is, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's in there. It's always jammed in there as a way of moderating whatever view. So the point where when you hear about it, you can almost be assured that it was put in there by people whose entire

purpose is to make sure that your view is moderated. It's moderated towards the, you know, ruling class, whether it be the billionaire stadium owners or whether it be people in Washington. And so, like, you know, for Abdul to say that is annoying because he feels he has to, because he's been convinced he has to, because he's been convinced that the, the Democratic Party base is going to punish him or not vote for him because of how hard the Democratic establishment has worked to tie him to things like America did 9-11 or whatever the fuck, you know. I think like this is, this is the thing is like these these, these. consultants are such poison because I the candidates themselves haven't many of them haven't run for political office before and if they have run for political office it's not been for Congress so they're not trying to play a national game right like Abdulran for governor running for Congress is totally different you're playing with the national media you're playing with the majorities

which means you're playing with leadership and you're playing with all of the leadership packs and all of the money and out-of-state advise out-of-state donors and bundlers like people in Los Angeles where you just go up into the Hollywood Hills and they have this event for you and they just generate a bunch of money and $3,000 contributions in kind. But can I ask you a question, Julian, about the advisors thing?

Because I think we risk making it sound like, oh, you know, if you end up somehow with bad advisors, a good person can be steered wrong. But is it a coincidence who this person A ends up with? Like, is it a coincidence that with AOC, someone like AOC with her temperament, her personality, her proclivities, and her either subconscious or conscious ambitions from the start,

she ends up with the people she ends up with, and someone like Thomas Massey or Elon Omar or Rashida Talib with their convictions, with their personality, with their constitution, they end up with the people they end up with or they're able to withstand them. I don't think it's a coincidence, and I agree with the premise of your question, but I will say that I would say that the people who end up with the bad advisors, I wouldn't necessarily characterize it as like malicious intent to do so. I think it's it's it's born of less conviction, certitude.

It's born of less backbone. Yeah. I don't mean malicious. Right. I don't think that they are seeking out people who have bad instincts or have bad policy leanings and putting them in the advisory roles. I think they're like, I don't know what to do. So I need people to tell me.

Right. And so I, and I just, I think that like Massey, for example, like is a good example. You know, they, they appropriate you a budget like when you get elected to Congress to hire your staff. And it's just like a flat dollar amount. And you go out and you choose your staff. There's a typical structure, right? Usually people will have a chief of staff. They will have a communications director.

Sometimes they'll have a press secretary. They'll have legislative aids and legislative correspondence. They will have a legislative director and a scheduler and a director of operations. That's the typical structure. Thomas Massey has one legislative staffer. It's him and this other guy named Raphael who's like a genius and like went to Columbia and all this stuff. He's just like a policy like wonk.

Those two are the only legislative staffers. Everybody else is digital. Everybody else is in charge of getting the message out. And then those two guys put their brains together and write it. You can only have that structure, though, if you trust your abilities. as a legislator. You have to be the one who's willing to sit down with a pen, write the bill with the LD, the legislative director and Raphael in this case. And you guys can construct policy that works together without too much interference from like an advisory council.

Everybody else being in charge of getting the message out benefits him on the back end because you see his face everywhere and you see his social media doing well. And so the way that he structured his office is fascinating. Most people don't do that. Even the best, you know, members of Congress in terms of like legislative accomplishments and policy record have more than one legislative staffer in their office. It's very abnormal to do it the way he did. But Thomas Massey, I mean, setting politics aside entirely is a total genius. I mean, the guy's brain operates in a way that it's hard to understand. He knows how people work. He knows how policy works. He's just a deeply, deeply intelligent person. And so he can do it. And how come he couldn't

withstand tens of millions of dollars in his primary. Maybe that's why the tens of millions were in there. If he's so smart. I will say that if you're so strong, why can't you survive a piano being dropped on your head? Exactly. Yeah, I will say, like, I think that that's what I mean, though, with the advisors, which is you have to be an exceptional talent or born of exceptional conviction or experience that gives you that conviction, to have the confidence in the face of the storm that is the establishment

collapsing in on you or these advisors or insiders swarming you, to put together a legislative staff or a circle of advisors that is born of your own confidence in your abilities and your own confidence in your own worldview and knowledge. The people who don't are thinking, I can't do this all by myself. I'm staring down the barrel of a gun, which is the public opinion of a country of 400 million people and the entire political establishment. So I don't fully blame them for ending up with bad advisors. What I do blame them for is sticking with those advisors and moving with them once they've realized that it's changing their political composition. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. You either end up with a Massey or you end up with a Federman.

Because Federman, I think, is a great example of someone who's just like had a stroke and was like, I don't care what any you idiots say. I love Israel. There are multiple independent very in the Federman equation, one of them would be mental illness. So I think you, you, you know, he has a lot of things going on. There's a lot going. He is definitely dual diagnosis here. But we have to take a quick break. But everyone stick around, watch these ads, whatever they are.

I don't know. But it'll probably be something good too, like Hall of Palestine. We'll find out. We'll be right back. And we're back as bad as bar, the world's most moral podcast. here with Julian andrioni. How you doing Julian? Holding up.

Good. Doing well. Good. Bella. I don't speak Italian. You lean into the old man's ear and you whisper. Julian andrioni. And this is for you.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My family is in. Sorry. No, no, you're okay. I looked away while I started talking that I realized you were in a method act thing. Yeah, yeah.

But my family is in the process of getting Italian citizenship, dual citizenship, based on my grandfather's heritage. And so I'm excited for that. My mom is like the most excited for that. I think it makes her feel close to her father. Oh, I love that. But we're, yeah, I'm going to become a real deal Italian. I know.

I'll be pasta and pizza drowning me. Gaba Gou. Exactly. Well, it is time now to move on from Gaba Gaule. To talk about the Gabba ghouls. To some of the Naza ghouls. Some of the Naz ghouls. The Naz ghouls.

The Naz ghouls, ring wraiths over in the Jewish state of Israel. We're going to be talking a little bit about Naza because you actually saw this documentary that has been the subject of many contentious tweet threads, both from Zionists and anti-Zionists alike. Before we get into your take on it, having seen the movie, I just want to play this one video from some protesters who are outside of the screening in New York. And there's been a lot said about Naza, about its many problems from, again, Zionists, of course, and even pro-Palestine anti-Sionists. Some of them saying exactly this. same thing about it. Some of them having...

It grants anonymity, so therefore it's letting war criminals get away with it or it's not reliable. Or it's fake. Or it's fake. And much hay has been made about this movie and many critiques, but I have never heard this one. I want to play this for you.

This was taken by a variety. This is the woman named Karen, I believe. It's an actual Karen. I'm going to read you the tweet first. All right. So first, this is the tweet, yes, her name is Karen. Toledano, a protester who attended the rally outside the New York Film Festival premiere of Naza,

says she feels like Israeli voices, quote, have been stifled within the creative community. Quote, I feel like our voices have been stifled in spaces that have called themselves inclusive for many years. Rather than me reading the rest of the quote, I'm just going to let Karen do her thing. and I will play for you her quick video here. I do feel like her voices have been stifled. I feel like they've been stifled in spaces that have called themselves inclusive and have sort of marketed themselves as such for many years. And it just isn't true.

Sometimes when I do try to have a calm conversation and I'm encountered with anger, I know in my head that there just isn't an argument on the other side, but it doesn't make it any easier to swallow. And really all you want to do is talk about the first. facts and, you know, set the record straight. So I, uh, I have heard a lot of criticisms of this movie. I, I have never heard. Sorry, I apologize.

I, I have heard a lot of criticisms of this movie. Uh, I, none of them include stifles Israeli voices. Of all the, I can't think of a more wrong critique about Naza than stifles Israeli voices. This is a movie that is made by Israelis and only includes their voices. Many of the Israelis in it, you don't see their face. They are anonymous. It's bifles Israeli faces, but that's because the Israelis wanted it that way. They weren't going to share their Israeli voices if their Israeli faces were shown. Yes. So I just like, there is a level of being wrong that is acceptable to me. This is one that is so wrong.

My head wants to explain. Well, as the Hungarian say, it's so wrong that not even the opposite is true. Wow. That's an expression. The easiest thing to do sometimes when you are confronted with the painful, like, consequences of the horrible actions of somebody close to you or somebody who associates with the same identity group as you is to me. is to immediately latch on to the instances in which you think you're the victim to try to stop yourself from perceiving yourself as the perpetrator. And I think that might be what's going on there with Karen

because, of course, nobody in the world with their head screwed on straight thinks that Israeli voices have been stifled. In fact, there is a multi-hundred million dollar operation to make sure that Israeli voices are amplified. So I was at this screening, and I saw Karen and her people across the street waving in Israeli flight. There were very few of them.

There was like 20 people maximum. What there was on the way to it, though, as my mom and I were walking from the parking lot to Lincoln Center, was this, a bunch of Hasbara trucks outside trying to set the record straight themselves by showing you these graphics. So if you just go back,

the truck says, Israel has implemented more precautions to protect civilian harm than any military and history in history. That's a quote from Colonel John Spencer. This is the Israel-America Committee. It's not AIPAC. It's their own, you know. I love a concise slogan on a billboard, by the way. So we're going to see Naza and the Israeli-American Council has made sure...

364 people were murdered at the Nova Music Festival on October 7th. That we get some lies on our way to the truth. John Spencer, lose-exposure guy. It's really lost his way. Different guy. That's great. Context is not censorship. It is responsibility. That's nice.

Context is not censorship. It's responsibility. Context is not censorship, but it is anti-Semitism if it's done too early. I don't know if you remember the early days of the context wars. Yeah, exactly. I would like to warn you, Peels, do not try to contextualize this. It is in bad taste. Don't you dare.

But. So that was the scene as we were. walked there and then, you know, caring, but meanwhile, you've got, I don't know, two, three thousand people lining up to hear some Israeli voices for an hour and a half and then to hear two other Israeli voices, which is the filmmakers who, to my surprise and delight, were there and were interviewed by the head of the artistic director of the New York Film Festival. So can I give you my my quick capsule review of the experience? So review it. It was a real feeling of being at a historic moment

to be at the North American premiere of this film, obviously hotly anticipated. And I didn't know what to expect. And I was ready for some of the critiques, some of the pre-critiques by people who hadn't seen it on the pro-Palestine side to be true. Like maybe on some way it'll hint at a subtle, a kind of redemption arc for Israelis.

Maybe there'll be a kind of shooting and crying aspect to it. That wasn't my experience at all. I think it's a brilliant movie, I think it's an impeccable piece of documentary journalism and a very artfully done one. Now, an artful, like even talking about it aesthetically or artfully, could sound to me if I wasn't the one saying it, like that's just more liberal clap trap. Like, why do we need art for when we're talking about a genocide?

However, there's a certain amount of elegance and thought required. If you're going to make this interesting, and if you're going to make it more than just a bunch of talking heads, and more than just a bunch of evidence or another shooting and crying film. You have to somehow subvert a lot of different tropes and memes and expectations of what it's going to sound like

to hear a bunch of Israelis confessing to crimes. And what's remarkably, the choice they made, I thought, was brilliant, is to film them at night on rooftops in Tel Aviv, essentially in the heart, in the belly of the beast, from which these killings happened. And because I, as they say in the movie, it's like most of the people interviewed in the movie

are not the grunt soldiers. Only one person interviewed out of the 24 was in Gaza, burning homes down. And he talks about how the commander would commend them, teach them how to burn homes, you know, you rip the fabric out of the wool pillows,

you light them afire, use the olive oil from the Palestinian shelves. And they would complement each other. Oh yeah, there's documentation of many crimes and major crimes and massive state crimes on every single level. They interviewed someone who worked for BB's intelligence department who goes after blackmail material

on Palestinian negotiators and international jurors. They admit to it. It zooms out to that level by the end of it. It's not just about the AI. It's about the whole operation at every level. But so many of these things happen from inside the Kiriyah, which is to say Israel's fucking terror tunnel underneath the heart of Tel Aviv,

where they use the entire city as a human, and shield for their military headquarters. Now, the filmmakers film these interviews in the dark with their faces concealed, and it's done digitally, but it doesn't look digital. It looks like they're just in the natural shadow of the darkness, which is very fitting. But what's even more brilliant than that, I think, artistically, and gives the movie a whole other level is the movie starts out with archival footage. of Gaza in the 1970s, shortly after Israel occupied it.

And it's the Israelis in a very kind of British India-coded way, coming in as these benevolent occupiers, smiling cheerfully, chatting with the local quizzling rulers, and setting up telecommunications networks. We're going to set up, you know, whole phone system for you guys. We're going to be really friendly, and we're going to... And there's like a ceremonial first phone call between, like, I don't know, the Palestinian subcontractor of Gaza

and the Israeli military commander and chummy, very, very, chummy. But what are they doing? They're setting up a surveillance infrastructure. So this is connected. Meanwhile, as the soldiers and whistleblowers are speaking, a lot of the time the camera is shooting downward into Israeli apartments, Israeli buildings, Israeli streets, Israeli gyms. You see someone's sneakers on a treadmill. You see someone doing, you see one limb doing a yoga pose. You see people just walking through, you know, through the blinds. And what you see a lot of, of is the televisions. You see the eight o'clock news. You see Beebe's face. You see you have Goliath's face. You see these news anchors reporting it and they over and they overdub the actual

audio of it. So essentially what you have is filmmakers surveilling the life of Tel Aviv and showing you the normalcy, the absolutely monstrous normalcy of what's going on, which inter, it's absolutely brilliant. Interposed with the interviews creates a very chilling picture. And to me, it's it's a perfect compliment to that film I've talked about so much on the podcast, Ken by Nadav Ledpid, which is not a documentary. It's a feature film. In stark contradiction to this film, it's bright and garish and totally mad. This movie is very, and satirical, and this movie is documentary.

The two could make the best doubleheader I've ever seen about life inside that insane asylum. Now, to anyone who doesn't want to peek inside Israeli society, you shouldn't see Naza. To anyone who doesn't want to hear Israelis talk about their crimes, I feel you. I'm not going to argue with anybody and say, no, you must see it, but the world must see it. It is an absolutely devastating,

and I don't care if the filmmakers are Zionist, anti-Zionist, I don't care what's in their hearts. I don't know. You've all spoke after the movie. He said some stuff. He includes little things about October 7th being horrible and unjustified. He still does these little things that I think will bridge,

he thinks will bridge gaps to liberal Zionists or whatever. I wish he wouldn't. It wouldn't. It's not the way I would. speak. But then again, I'm not him. I haven't had his life and I haven't made his goddamn movie. But what I do know is that this film, no matter what the artists themselves believe or will allow themselves to say in public interviews, because remember, they still have to go back and live in this fucking country that now wants them dead. This movie is an absolutely essential death blow

to the Zionist entity. And as I said on Twitter, it's going to take many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many death blows to bring this beast down, you know? But this is, but this is one. And it's one of the biggest I've ever seen. There's no coming back from seeing this movie in, in the sense of believing that there's a redemption arc for Israel, believing that there's any left left in Israel, believing in any, so many of the liberal Hasbara lies. So I think it makes a crucial contribution, which is exactly what I hope to make. And it does it elegantly, artfully, very sly. and with a lot of integrity. And now I want to see it.

And at the same time, I am also nauseated by the idea of seeing it. It's chilling. For the same reason that it was incredibly nauseating to see the voice of Hinra Jab. It was like one of those movies that it was like incredibly hard, especially as someone who, you know, I felt like, I don't know if I need to see this so much as my parents need to see this. You know. I think you do need to see Naza. I don't think we needed to see the voice of Indrajav in a sense, although it was beautiful. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was incredibly well done. Go ahead, Julian. We are, we're in a time right now in this country and in the world, like where

to a certain extent, actually, in my view, it is incumbent upon us to watch the horrible things and feel, feel the scale and the gravity of what's actually going on. Because reading about it seeing images, seeing little blips and clips is one thing. But understanding comprehensively what's going on is necessary context to be able to do the work of repairing it. And so I, like, for example, with the Epstein stuff, I, ooh, I've like, I've seen, like some things that are just like really, really dark with regard to the Epstein stuff. Yeah, like.

Were we in it? No. No. I mean, I already knew that, but it's good to add. Just like a nine-year-old girl. Yeah, I got you. I got you. Just like things like that.

And then also just understanding which power brokers were at play there. And how much of our country's elite, whether that's political elite or financial elite, were wrapped up in this understanding that actually it was a playground for, for, for, for, for, for. the wealthy class and it was an operator it appears that it was an operation that was geopolitical in many ways um especially based on the reporting the amazing reporting that Ryan and maz have done um for drop site uh but but I think that it it was necessary for me to see those things even though it kept me up some nights and even though it it pained me and even though I can still see it because there are human beings who are actually going through that. And we have to stop that.

We have to stop as many people as possible from going through those terrors, whether it's genocide, ethnic cleansing, sexual assault, systematic sexual assault, rape, child rape, pedophilia. We have to stop those things. Imperialism, right? Like a powerful country, in some ways the purpose of Dropside is to show you. And Jeremy says this all the time. Show you what it feels like to be on the other side of the gun of American imperialism. What does it feel like to have the gun pointed at you rather than being someone in the country that's pointing the gun?

And I think that for us to even do that work, you have to see it. You have to feel it because there's a huge difference between thinking something and processing it and intellectualizing it and feeling it in your gut. You can't think away feelings. And this movie makes you feel something very different than what the voice of Hindraja made me feel. I should take it back that it wasn't necessary to see. It was very necessary to see. It was a much more, it was a different kind of artistic experience because of the blend of documentary found footage

and the feature of film acting. But a couple of Palestinian friends of mine have either seen all of it or part of it. And both of them said to me, I didn't want to see this. And I was worried that it wouldn't tell me anything I didn't already know. But actually it was a validating experience. And it filled in some,

blanks that I didn't know. So I hope people will be open to it because I actually think it's not the case that listening to Israelis talk is going to somehow influence anyone to feel sorry for them so much as it's going to, just like the zone of interest gave me insight into how the Germans did it and what it did to the human beings who started out as human beings and became Nazis. Understanding that about Israelis does not blunt or defang your activism. Rather, I think rounds it out and grounds it in a more objective reality, as opposed to just only focusing on, and we should focus absolutely,

on the scenes from Gaza. And at the end of this movie, at the end of Naza, only then do they show you some footage of the consequences of these policies. And you look at it, and it disgusted me more, actually, having listened to the Israelis talk about the design of it all, to then see, as opposed to just the kind of otherworldly horror of the footage from,

from Gaza up until that point for me. No, I looked at it and I'm like, this is 100% by design calculated and I now know who did it. Yeah. And how they justified it to themselves. I think everybody needs to have some confidence in their ideological fortitude and in their own moral compass. You can watch something. You can, I can watch, I watch Tucker Carlson every episode. I'm not afraid at all that I will become him. I, I watch Fox News to get a picture of what's going on and what people are digesting. I'm not afraid I'm going to become a Fox News viewer. Have some confidence in your ideological fortitude

in your moral compass. You are who you are. And by the way, we really need to stop running away from feelings as a people. We need to stop running away from feelings that make us feel uncomfortable, right? Like being happy, being comfortable, being at leisure wouldn't mean anything if you hadn't gone through

discomfort and gone through sadness. and gone through sadness and pain. And these are extremely painful issues, imagery, narration, but you have to experience that feeling because having that feeling not only gives you the context with which to act, it not only makes you certain that you need to exercise your agency as a human being

and as a civil participant in this society, but it also reminds you that you are that. You are human. You are feeling. And feeling is what this is all about. It's about connection and feeling. And true empathy, true empathy is not just understanding what's going on somewhere, but feeling it to the extent that you can with them.

And I think that is what this film will do. I think you're absolutely right. I'm so glad you said it. And when I was watching Naza, I was watching an entire society of people who've had all the feeling beaten out of them. And I'm not talking about the Palestinians. If anyone by merit in terms of how much they've suffered and how recently they've suffered and how ongoingly they suffered should be numb,

it's the Palestinians. They have a culture that keeps emotion alive. I'm talking about the Israelis. The real robots and drones, and I'm not saying this to take the human accountability or agency away from them, but just like the Nazis had to be made into automaton, who could do anything and feel nothing about it or feel glee about it, that's what Zionism has done to the Jews of that country.

It's turned Jews into wasps, and that's one of the biggest crimes of Zionism. You know, there was a time when Jews collectively felt stuff. And I will die on that hill as being real. Which allowed them to make comedy and music and all kinds of great shit. And then, and now it's just a society of fucking, you know, essentially wasps who are just like, we don't really talk about those feelings here. Bad things happen and we look away. It's like the entire fucking, you know, it's Dairy Main now from fucking it.

Just people. Yeah. I will say that there is a, there is a, and just speaking, you know, from my anecdotal experience, and I'm not exactly sure how applicable it is to everybody else's situation, but just like about members of my own family who are Jewish. I've watched a number of them have an evolution on this issue, not to the extent that probably we would like, but people who've begun to realize that perhaps the only bad actor here isn't that in Yahoo or isn't Ben Gavir.

perhaps that's emblematic of a societal issue. Just that realization, even in partial, is evidence that the human mind in many ways is salvageable. And I'm not saying that all of them are. I'm not saying that you could go into the IDF and convince special forces or operations people. But I'm saying that there are American Jews still who believe that the state of Israel, is a legitimate state, is a legitimate democratic project, is a place that holds Western values, and those people are subject,

or they are victim of the propaganda, of the Hasbara. And there are people who are still people and human beings, many Jews. I talk with them all the time because I'm invested in their independence from this. Because I know that they're not cruel. And this movie will push people. And I know that they can break out of it.

Exactly. And this movie will push more people, not all people, but more people towards that. And I would assert that that is a part of the overall narrative arc called Free Palestine. It's not the most laudable part. It's not the sexiest part. But erosion at every level, cutting the tethers, mind by mind, neuron by neuron, is part of the thing.

And as I said on Twitter, no one thing, this movie will not free Gaza, Palestine. This movie will not do it. Neither will my posting or this podcast or anyone else's posting. Nothing will free Palestine, but everything might. Very well said. But let me just add one thing, which is that sometimes, purpose of doing this is not achieving the end. Correct.

Most of the time. It better not be because when we're failing every minute of every day. Right. It's about the principle. Yes. And the principle is that we tell the truth. Yes. The principle is that we acknowledge objective reality and we are truly objective in telling

people exactly what is going on as we know it. And not only is this about free Palestine, which of course it is, all people should be free. But for somebody like me who's generally throughout my life in politics had a domestic focus, this is about free America. We want our politicians to stop being bribed by a foreign country and stop sending $3 billion abroad when 60% of people are living paycheck to paycheck, when more than 20 million are uninsured in the wealthiest country on earth, the only major country on earth, not to guarantee all of its citizens' health care as a human right. We don't have strong enough collective bargaining agreements. We don't have paid family or medical leave. We have needs as a people as the American people.

There are people like one of my ex-girlfriends who had tumors in her arm and couldn't go to the doctor to check if they were benign or cancerous. That is the predicament in this country. We have people who are rationing meals. One stick of beef jerky in the morning. One stick of beef jerky at the end of the day for three weeks so that they can get their child or their significant other a birthday gift. we need to increase the basic standard of dignified living.

We need to allow people to have a life outside of sustenance and survival. We need people to be able to think as a family about where they want to go on vacation, whether they're at the top of the totem pole socioeconomically or at the bottom. And the only way that we can have that is if we stop sending $3 billion a year without question unconditionally to a government that is using that money and those weapons to slaughter innocent women, and men on the ground without any regard for human life because they're pursuing regional hegemony, resource extraction, imperialist project. It's disgusting. And I don't think that our money should be used to do it. Dude, could we do an exchange program where UNAOC trade jobs for a day? Like she, because that was a, that was, I want to hear that speech on the steps of Congress.

Yeah. Well, no, it was very good. And yeah, I mean, without Congress, without making it illegal for these politicians to be bribed. We don't get any of these things, you know, without living in... We don't get anything. We don't get anything. What do we get? What bills are they working on up there? Section 219 to merge the Israeli and U.S. military, they just sent 40,000 new 2,000-pound bombs.

That is equivalent of... That is equivalent in scale to the atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima. That was just a blank check by the U.S. government. Congressional appropriated money that the Trump administration sent over there. That didn't even require a vote. That's the scale of how complicit we are in this. And at the same time, like I said, everybody's suffering on the ground. Unacceptable.

Totally unacceptable. And Rife for persuasion, you know. So thank you for continuing to hold politicians' feet to back. So we've been talking about the, you know, the counter protest outside of Lincoln Center. This is a liberal Israeli folk singer. Yaha have sent this to me, Matt, our former guest. His name is Tohar, which means purity in Israel, in Hebrew, I should say. And he does, like, folk songs.

He apparently has a folk song called, and he's like a liberal Tel Aviv artist type, but very militaristic and very kind of doubled down on the nationalism in the past couple years. He has a song called Nashim Le Mithva. which means women to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the firing range. This nashim loves fascists. Exactly. Which is a play on Le Mietbach, which is kitchen. So instead of women to the kitchen, it's women to the shooting range.

He loves singing songs about sexy female who's ready soldiers. This is his song about Naza and about the filmmakers. And I'll, I'll read the, uh, he already has a song about it. It hasn't even come out. That's right. Sitting in a, sitting in a park with his acoustic. Here we go. I too want to make a movie about the Palestinian people suffering

and sit in fancy halls in a suit and an olive in my martini. And I too want 25 minutes of applause and worldwide publicity and have millions kiss my hands because I'm fighting for justice and morality. What a bummer that I'm just a Zionist and have nothing except my friends. Ideologies aren't worth the money these days. Better to betray it's a million times more profitable. And the warm hug from the Europeans is so pleasant

that it's easy to get confused. I'm the only sucker who will stay here forever. I was born and I'll die in Israel. Ed Schmiren? Ed Schmereen, yeah. Holy shit. Ed Smirin. man you know that you know what's interesting about that is that you know typically if you're like

walking down the street and there's like you know maybe a mentally ill or somebody on drugs person who's like screaming at you you're a maybe they're a little schizophrenic too they're like you're the mafia you just came after me typically we born Jewish yeah and then I've learned typically typically typically typically typically you would would ignore those people. Right. But then when we confront the same degree of delusion and sycophancy, we all have to treat it as equal.

We have to treat it as if this is like a hump. But everybody has something to say. And I think that's the funniest thing is that you were talking about there are people that are of the pro-Palestine crowd who are saying that the Naza movie is like too Zionist or pro-Israel or whatever, which may be true. I haven't seen the movie, but my instinct is that sometimes you have to, if you're asking for an apple and somebody gives you an apple, take the apple. You know what I mean? It's like, that's my feeling.

Yeah, like I think that sometimes, sometimes, yes, nothing's going to be perfect. But we're like you said, it's about erosion. And these types of people, the pro-Palestine people who criticize the movie are the people who feel like they need to comment on things like this. talk out about it and it amplifies the video to the point that it ends up on a podcast like this. Nobody would even know about this guy if we just said, is this guy nuts? Like, okay, yeah, like whatever you're saying about like hot women shooting things or whatever being in kitchens, like yeah, yeah, do your thing. Like, I hope it's really fun in Fantasyland.

We're going to talk about what's going on in real life here. Exactly. I think, you know, we've, and we've discussed this before with the sort of pro-Palestine backlash to this movie in particular, which is that a PR win is a win. and that, you know, you have to look at this as a part of a larger strategy, as opposed to something that is whether or not it is critiquable is, you know, not my issue. It's the strategy around critiquing it when you are going to critique something and add to the deluge of fucking pro-Israel critiques.

of this movie and you're going to become almost indistinguishable from that, then that says to me that you are not someone who really cares all that much about the PR aspect of it. And I understand not caring about the PR aspect of it, but I just personally think you're wrong to not care because if you're going to spend almost a billion dollars just this year on Hasbara, there's a reason for that. And the reason is because Hasbara has kept Israel afloat. Outside of the direct payments to our Congress and to all elected officials, direct payments to media companies and high-level positions within those companies is the reason why Israel remains not synonymous with South Africa and South African apartheid or even Nazi Germany. So that's my, you know, feeling on PR wins.

Let a win be a win, you know? But that's, that's just me. And what the fuck do I know? I'm just a dipshit who wants to sing Space Oddity. Oh, I was just going to say, if you didn't say that, I was going to make the joke. I was going to be like, you're just a David Bowie impersonated. That's right. This is major come to pound it hole. Julian, it's been wonderful talking. You Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. Where can people find you and follow your work? Well, on Twitter, it's Julian Andrioni, just my full name as it's written here on screen, it appears.

And then on Instagram, it's my full name, but with a the in the beginning because that the former was taken. And so I added a the, I don't think I'm especially important, although I just wanted to keep it brief. And I'm sure there are other Julian Andrionis out there. You don't have to explain yourself. I get it. There's not another Julian Andrioni that you hate so much that you're like, no, I'm better than them.

That's fine. I believe you. The last thing that I will say, and this is kind of what I wish I said at the beginning, which is what I typically do, is that DropSite. It's free to subscribe. DropSightnews.com slash subscribe.

You don't need to do anything except put your email in. You'll get a daily newsletter. And if you would like to contribute and subscribe, our subscription, our paid subscription is cheap. It's $99 a year. like roughly 25 cents a day. So if you are willing to do that, that helps so much. And send me a message or an email.

I'm Julian at dropsite news.com on Signal. I'm Julian Andrioni. 2003, which is my birth year. And I will respond to anything, everything. And if you're in D.C., maybe we'll grab a coffee and talk a little bit about all of this stuff. And hopefully, maybe non-political stuff too. I like to hear about what's going on in everybody's lives so that I can report better on them. Thank you again, Julian. It was great speaking with you. Everyone, there's going to be a little bit more show. So we're doing something we don't often do. We're taking another break. But stick around. We'll be right back. And we're bags, badass barrow, the world's most moral podcast. That was Julian Andrioni. Wasn't that a great, wasn't that a great episode so far? Fantastic. And a 22 year old at that, that kid, he's going places. He's going places. Let young, fresh young man, good,

him. Good for all young people out there. Not at all bitter about the glow in your face. No, but I'm beautiful in my own way. And your probable capacity to have very short refractory periods.

Oh, just the way you're able to rebuild and regain and maintain. What are we even talking about? Just go all night. Yeah, what? Huh? Huh? We have a little

bit more podcast left for you. We decided to take a break to let Julian go because, of course, he had something else he needed to do. And we were like, oh, we're not done yet because we have one more thing. It's a reading series that we really wanted to do. I have not read this. Yes. I'm excited to read it to you. Yeah. And so I am excited to hear about it. Daniel, maybe you can be the one who reads it to me. Yeah, happy to. This is just one of those Jerusalem post, you know, op-ed blogs from some random weirdo, which we often overlook. But this one to me was just so funny. It's one of these things where you see a Hasbarist tied up in knots by what words mean and trying to overcome what words mean and trying to propose a new Hasbara strategy that bypasses

what words mean. Sure, sure, sure. So this article is called Why Israel's has, why Israel has, Israel's Hasbara cannot manufacture the authenticity it needs. Just off the bat, banger fucking title. Well, because that's what authenticity is. Yeah. It's not manufactured. You're not manufacturing. Why?

Because that's the definition of it. I don't know what else to tell you there. Yeah. Holy grail. We are unable to synthesize nature. It's incredible stuff, dude. We've been unable to create God in a laboratory. That's right.

That's right. For the past three years, the Hasbara Space has become a profession built on monetized integrity by Golda Daphna. Yes. I mean, again, the names on these Jerusalem Post writers are always fantastic. This is from September 23rd. Golda Daphna. Updated September 25th. I wonder what the update was.

Just at the very end of the article, it says, editor's note, this is good shit. No, I'm thinking that it's like two days later an Israeli startup had started up like a company to, you know, Authenticity Corp or something. Yeah, exactly. We have created an AI chatbot that is authentic. It's basically a real person. So we find the claims in this article to be unsubstantiated.

That's great. We are working on it. All right. Let's read this thing. All right. here we go. The other day, I was scrolling on TikTok. Okay.

Always a good start. An unfortunate late-night habit. This is a young person then. I guess so. I guess so. Yeah, we'll find out when we get to her bio at the end. Okay. An unfortunate late-night habit.

I went down a rabbit hole about a specific beauty brand. I saw a video by a Korean beauty creator that publicized a dispute with the brand. She began the video by saying, I was sexually assaulted in college. She explained that. Truth always matters to her above brand collaboration. My mouth immediately dropped open. Suddenly, the video wasn't about skin care to me. It was about integrity.

It was about skincerity. Okay. It sounds like it was. I'm so skin, sir. I don't understand the to me part. It was like, yeah, it's not, it's about this influence of sexual assault. But okay, let's keep on. But keep in mind that this woman's main interest is, how can we do,

Barra better. And she walks, watches a skincare video where the woman says I was sexually assaulted in college. I don't like the start. And her mouth drops open. She's like, wow, I smell integrity. God damn it. That's authentic. No one would ever use sexual assault in order to push forward propagandistic notions, right? No one's ever used that. It was about a girl whose authenticity will never come at the cost of her integrity. It was about how a skincare influencer was grappling with the same challenges in the Korean beauty industry as I was in the Hasbara public diplomacy world. Oh, what is it?

Okay. All right. I'm with you. I'm with you. Let's keep going. Okay. I've accidentally become a Hasbara content creator. It was never my goal.

All right. Yeah. I've accidentally become a counter Hasbara content creator. It's never my goal. That's a good point. You know what? Whoops. On both ends, we just fell into this.

life. You were like World War I soldiers staring at each other from opposite trenches being like, that's right. You know, how did we get here, Fritz? Yeah, we don't know. All we know is that the powers that be want us fighting. That's all we know. I was an engineering student at Columbia University. I was raised in the base Yaakov system, I guess, Hasidic schools. Hasidic schools, yeah. And never learned evolution. yet I was suddenly sitting in a classroom with students from Istanbul that were arguing of my professor about theoretical mathematics. For the first time of my life, I felt alone and stupid. So I turned to TikTok.

Oh, man, bad start. I'm sorry, that's not a good reaction. Just learn evolution. I wasn't trying to make money. I didn't want to be a spokesperson. I just wanted to feel understood. Oh, this is what she means. She quit theoretical mathematics and turned to TikTok.

because she didn't feel seen and heard in her theoretical mathematics class. Like it was too hard to learn something I hadn't learned. So I became a content creator for validation. You'll find that with this generation of kids that is not an, you know, uncommon story. No, it's true. I get it, dog. It's hard out in these streets. My following grew to 30,000 people that wanted to build community with me, a community built

on orthodoxy, sexual trauma, and my Israeli identity on an increasingly anti-Semitic campus. Okay, okay. Then I made Aliyah a week before October 7th. I continued using my account like I always had as a personal diary. But this time I felt more alone than ever. So did thousands of Jews around the world. What do you mean? You made Alia.

You're there. You're surrounded by people who feel the same as you. you. If only there was a special state for people who make Aliaa and still feel alone. Yeah. We need a state within a state. They wanted to feel, they too didn't want a spokesperson. They wanted to feel understood.

They wanted a voice on the ground. They wanted a story like mine. My account blew up. And just like that, I became part of the Hasbara space. Oh, man. Just this life chose me, dog. That's one of the opening lines of middle school mysteries. That's right.

Like every time I close my locker, somebody needs something. Man, I hate sixth grade. But then I didn't choose this life. This life chose me. That's right. It's been three years since October 7th. We didn't land on Asbarra Rock. We didn't land on Asbarra Rock.

Landed on us. Hasbara Rock landed on us. Shout out. My own Malcolm X. It's been three years since October 7th. Three years since I made Elia. Three years since I no longer was just a girl making TikToks because she's felt alone. I've become increasingly disillusioned and agitated. What was once a platform

built on community, activism, and authenticity has become an echo chamber driven by profit, hysteria, and brand safety. So she's a Hasbara whistleblower. There's something wrong in the Hasbara space. This is great because this is like the world's only like authentic Hasbara soldier is, I guess what I'm led to believe is like, listen, I came to Israel for the love of the game. which was to go there and complain about how no one gets me. And then October 7th happened. And now all of a sudden, all these fucking fakers are coming on trying to take my goddamn brand. Yeah.

I'm the only real hip hopper left. That's right, dude. Last rapper alive. A platform that gave me community when I felt most alone has also stripped me of it at a time of the greatest tragedy. Strip you of what? The first time I... Yeah. What did he mean?

I don't know. We're about to find out. I hope. Okay. The first time I noticed this disintegration was when clavicular was brought to Israel. Oh, all right. I was in a group chat with fellow Hasbarists. Now, it's refreshing to hear someone just...

Call themselves what they are. Exactly. I mean, this person is putting it in quotes, but they also have not put it in quotes multiple times. Correct. Okay. Good. Expressing their excitement for his visit. I sent an article about his alleged assault.

a content creator sent a voice note laughing off the sexual abuse allegations. Shocking, I got to say, that's shocking. For an Israeli, a pro-Israel content creator, laughing off sexual abuse? Jesus. I thought the apparent moral quandary was obvious.

If you make a platform by speaking against the sexual abuse on October 7th and then platform alleged rapists, you also exploit the bodies of victims. Yeah, that's the moral quandary, does it? Yeah, that's what's going on here. apparently my statement and subsequent videos were enough to boot me from every group chat i was

ostracized and received a deluge of texts about my behavior and how i should respond suddenly hasbara had a hierarchy oh my god i had people to answer to if i wanted to be included what happened to the good old days of anarchist hasbara you know that's right dude just anarcho syndicalist hasbara collectives i never thought the leopards would eat my face this is uh This is great. This is great. I love this. I'm so sorry this happened to you. Free Palestine, though. This was when I understood Hasbba. Yeah, in our case, we are going to read all that. Yeah, I am reading all that and free Palestine. This was when I understood Hasbara was not about advocacy or community. It was about donor approval in the diaspora.

Ah, okay. So just to be clear, before this very moment, this is the first time that you were like, you know, I'm certain to think. that people are doing this for the budget that has been created and set aside by the fucking by the Knesset. Okay, fine. First time. You got to learn sometime. This is someone who used to, like, imagine saying this about any kind of public relations. I used to believe that public relations.

Yeah, right. Exactly. Damage control. Yes. You know, in, it's already called it. It's already called it. It was about advocacy and community. I thought it was about bringing together loners and neurodivergent people.

But it turns out it's about safeguarding private interests doing malevolent shit. I thought that propaganda was about saying the truth to people. But now I'm starting to think it's propaganda. That's crazy to me. You got to be one of the world's only propagandists who didn't initially understand what propaganda meant. The only disillusioned propagandist in history. I had to leave the propaganda. world. It's just not the world I got into, you know. When I returned to the diaspora and visited

New York, I was shocked. I had just returned from three years of constant war and missile fire. Three years where my nervous system couldn't calm down. I was sipping Starbucks in the sun as tourists streamed around me. I could finally breathe. This is a woman who made Alia a few years ago. So this woman did fucking live with your choices. I know. I just returned from three years of constant war. And just now I'm back to my homeland of New York. I mean, actually, that's a good kind of exposure therapy. Someone who has claustrophobia or moral injury or whatever, move to Israel for a few years.

You'll be cured of it, man. You'll come back happy as hell to be where you're from. You'll do a fucking headstand and fucking Coney Island Beach, dude. That's right. You'll just do a fucking reverse Ben-Gurion. Yeah. Where was the mayor, where was the mayor, Zora Mamdani reign of terror I saw all over my feed? Yes, the anti-Semitism was real.

A passerby shouted free Palestine as my sister and I posed under a sticker of the Lubavichur Rebbe. But a war zone? The reality of being a Jew in New York City felt far more subtle than the hysteria being sold for an appearance at a gala. Girl, you are, you're going to be shocked to, I don't know, have your eyes open for the rest of the day. Just keep looking around. Yeah. I haven't seen a picture of her, so I don't know if she has curve, but I know she's behind the curve. Well, yeah, I don't know.

I posted a video saying, if you give a mayor more attention than he deserves, you make him more important. Is this the woman that we played that video from? Might be her. Immediately I was shut down again. How dare I? I was gaslighting anti-Semitism. Suddenly, I was being told I wasn't a real soldier or a New Yorker. I introduced nuance into a conversation, a conversation that fuels an industry.

paid by the click, so I failed a litmus test for a course I never planned to take. Everything this woman does is accidental. Yeah, I know. She just keeps slipping and falling into these narratives. When I entered the banana peel factory. I never thought this fucking rake would hit me in the face. I just stepped on it because it'd be fun. Oh, my God.

There's something also about like being told you weren't a real soldier. at some point, wouldn't you take a step back and be like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What do you mean soldier? I never said I was a soldier, right? Maybe she did view herself as a soldier. A Hasbara soldier. A trend began to emerge from me. You can't talk about feminism.

You can't talk about your dating history. You can't share any experience that deviates from the Hasbara echo chamber. If you do, you won't be brand safe. And if you are not brand safe, you won't get paid. This is so fucking amazing. This is incredible. Thank you. Thank you, Golda.

Because what I look at, I look at this as, okay, it is also true, in a sense that when you deviate from whatever echo chamber, you're a part of whatever your politics are, including pro-Palestine politics. If you were going on and, you know, saying online, guys, calm down about Naza. It's actually a good movie. You should see it. You, of course, are going to get some pushback for it, some flack. Some people are going to call it.

call you a Zionist or whatnot. The difference is, is this next sentence, you won't be, quote, brand safe. None of us are brand safe. And if you're not brand safe, you won't get paid. You're all getting paid? You get paid for this shit? You're getting brands? Are you all getting Coca-Cola reaching out and being like, hey, I really like your pro-genocide spin on this?

But then you started doing feminism. Yeah. And Israeli sin care company wanted to get, you wanted to get, her as their sponsor. Yeah, bro. This next sentence is wild. For the past three years, the Hasbara space, a space meant for community, a space of communal responsibility, and boots on the ground authenticity has become a profession

built on monetized integrity. Whatever the fuck that means. I don't believe it. You can't convince me that's true. Monetized integrity. as those two words following each other is incredible. Manufactured authenticity and monetized integrity. Yeah, a new book by Noam Chomsky.

Oh, like, it's like saying manufacturing consent earnestly, you know, like saying it as like, and that's a good thing because obviously consent is always good. Well, that's why, but that's where the term came from. The term came from someone approvingly saying that's the job of, the media is to manufacture consent. And we should, and it's right that we do. That's right. Walter Lippman, maybe.

Anyway. It's funny to see it from someone who was also a paid has barris. Correct. When I was scrolling TikTok last night, I wanted to find solutions for my skin. I fell down that rabbit hole searching for genuine feedback and authenticity. Which skincare brands actually worked? Companies need to market their products and skin care influencers need to get paid. But what happens when the skinclare influencers are driven by financial incentives?

What? I don't know. That's what an influencer is, you fucking person. Okay, okay. Like at some point, I'm like looking at this person, I'm going, man, the fucking based Yakov school or whatever for already, you know, runaways. I mean, it's one thing to not teach about evolution. It's another thing to like not learn about human motivations for things.

Yeah. This is, this is the federal government. We've got to step in and get them some education. At the very least, they should learn that skin care influences are not doing it for the love of the game. Yeah, this is not a good advertisement for the yeshiva life. Jewish nonprofits need to publicize their messaging. Antisemitic statistics need to be circulated. Those who facilitate that mission deserve compensation.

Antisemitic statistics is a funny malaprop. She means statistics about anti-Semitism. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And these Semitic statistics need to be circulated. Like what percentage of us are in the banking industry? No, no, no, no, no. That's not what I mean? But what happens to a message driven by monetary benefit?

What happens to someone like me, someone who only ever wanted community and authenticity and didn't want to feel alone? Fuck, dude, I know. What if I'm just like the Korean beauty influencer? What if I told my university I was sexually assaulted? What if they tried to silence me? What if, at the risk of my own degree, happiness, future, and safety, I told me. the world? What if I went to McDonald's and genuinely

was loving it? You know? Like I don't understand these people are out here with this slogan, not actually loving it? No. Can money ever buy my silence? Can professional pressure

from people I don't respect dictate what I'm allowed to say? What happens when the hierarchy I answer to is one I don't believe in? One that repeatedly platforms a man charged with assaulting and drugging a minor The pro-Israel space increasingly talks about how the world doesn't believe us. Non-profit organizations then invite creators who repeat their talking points. But what kind of representatives do we attract if we only platform those who regurgitate what is profitable?

Is the message we want to deliver one without nuance? And if someone is only willing to say what is deemed safe, why should we expect the world to trust them with the truth? Out of the mouths of babes, you know? 100%. You know, I just, I hate to end up. fanatelize a grown-ass woman, but my God. Yeah, this is a case of strung on rest of the development. Now, here is where she finds a possible model to take inspiration from. Okay, all right. We've got some solutions. So this, I'm assuming the next part of this is,

so I've been reading a little bit about, a little bit from this guy, Carl Marx. Yeah, not quite. Okay, okay, all right. Social media was created to connect people. The world began empathizing with the Gazan plight through Bissan. She was just a girl, a storyteller. She wasn't introduced to the world as a spokesperson. Okay, I'm sorry, but we've started, I just want to point out

a girl is in quotes for those listening. Yes. She wasn't flown in to deliver talking points. She documented what she saw, and people felt that they were witnessing the truth rather than being sold it. Hmm, okay.

The Hasbara space and the Jewish non-profits that fund them are trying to manufacture integrity. But true integrity comes at the cost of everything. True integrity is a girl documenting a war zone. True integrity comes at the price of safety and comfort. That is why people believe it. Okay, so I just want to say, yes, you have described this on here. True integrity is a girl documenting a war zone

and comes at the price of safety and comfort, and that's why people believe, yes, go on. I think this woman seems to think that if she, She did Hasbara, which is lies about October 7th and everything before and after it, but included the fact that she was sexually assaulted in college. That would be the equivalent of being Bissan. Yes, I think so too. It's either that or she's saying what I need to do is go into Gaza and get nearly killed and then explain how those bombs nearly killing me were actually okay.

I mean, that's, I think the closest you're going to get to the authenticity that you want here. Uh-huh. But there's this way of just flattening and cheapening, I mean, by leaps and bounds. What, like, the reason people believe Bissan is that she's telling the truth. Not because she's branding the truth. Or, like, this woman's all looking for style and, you know, tech, like, influencer. She's got such influencer brain that all she can think. of is engagement and credibility not credence.

Yeah, yeah. It is it's wild to like see only like part of the matrix, you know, to use that metaphor. Like she's she's understood that there's a monetary incentive that all of these other fellow Hasbaris are repeating talking points that they may not necessarily believe in. In fact, they may just be doing it for the money. So she understands that little bit of it, but she can't go so far as to say that Bissan isn't also doing that? Like she's saying that, you know, it's clear that all these people like Besson because Besson was probably sitting around with Hamas, kind of pitching different ideas to make integrity out of something that is clearly not integris, you know? And as opposed to... She thinks this is game recognizing game.

This is game not recognizing anything. Yes, it is again, it's this like stuck in this world where people believe that because there is Israeli Hasbara that we're doing, the other side must also be doing Hasbara. They must also be doing PR as opposed to what they're actually doing, which is just filming themselves being fucking genocided by these fucks. That's exactly right. And, yeah, she can't get that far. I guess. I just want to say to her, I mean, given these next two sentences, how can we expect the world to trust Hasbara when it barely trusts itself?

Right. And what does it mean when New Yorkers who made Aliaa after graduating Columbia and served in the IDF are no longer deemed brand safe to talk about their experience? Come on over to us, Daphna. It's much more authentic and welcoming here. You just have to give up all the lies, not just some of the lies. You have to realize that Hasbara is not about what you thought it was. You're going to have to stop lying to yourself.

I know you don't want to do that. otherwise you wouldn't be writing this for the Jerusalem Post. But that's the invitation. Yeah, yeah. And also, you know. You're closer than you think. Yeah, you are. It's just, it's a, it's a question of, yes, having to wrestle with the fact that everything you know about everything is wrong.

That's right. That's right. The real question is, how can we expect the world to trust Hasbara when it's Hasbara? Yeah, right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. So here's the. the final page, yes. What does it mean when every one of those experiences are only profitable when they are narrated by those who never lived them? Who do you believe? The writer is an accidental Hasbara content creator,

originally from New York? Wait, wait, wait, why is that in there? Accidental Hasbara? I think she probably wrote this bio herself. Oh, my Lord. Because she never meant to. Originally from New York, she tripped and fell, exactly,

in some Hasbara. She graduated from Columbia with a degree in biomedical engineering before making Alia and enlisting the IDF after October 7th. She now hopes to follow in the footsteps of her great-grandfather, Ben-Gurian's private doctor and practice medicine in the hospitals he helped create. Oh, man. I was, you know, there's like part of me that's like always holds out a little hope for when people start being like what's going on here. But then you see just the most kind of obvious, you know, positioning that she's doing here, which is like the problem with our Hasbara spheres, there's a lot of fucking competition. The problem with Hasbara is I have to deal with all these other motherfuckers out there when I'm the real shit.

I'm the one who's putting out the actual real authentic. She's the mad rapper of Hisbara. Yes, straight up. Everyone else is just fucking, you know, jacking my entire flow. You know, there's always hope out there for people who maybe are going to open their eyes a little bit. This, I don't think, is one of those cases. But you never know, dog. You never know.

As Barrow World is, you know, it's a very well-paid beast. And it's going to make it hard for you to get out of there. But if you do it for the love of the game and not the love of the game. the money. Maybe you can, I don't know, break through somehow. Yeah. And then you'll have integrity that you can monetize. Yes. And that's okay because I mean it, which I think is the whole point of that. It's like, it's all with all these people who are pretending to mean it when I'm the only one. Shout out to Golda. Shout out to the high ready school system, I guess. Just keep pumping I'm out. Keep pumping out people don't know what a gymnasium is. And thank you to everyone

who's been listening, watching, subscribing, going on Patreon and supporting this podcast. Thank you to Julian Andrioni one more time, who was a fantastic guest. And yeah, subscribe to us. Patreon.com slash badassbara, baddhbara at gmail.com for your questions, comments, and concerns. All right, everyone. Thanks again so much for listening. And until next time, from the river to the sea. All I want for my birthday is some non-manufactured authenticity. You're going to get it.

Jumping jacks was us. Push-ups was us. Godmaga us. All karate us. Taking Molly us. Michael Jackson us.