Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - Bad Hasbara 1: Ben Ziggy

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

Welcome to the first episode of bad hasbara. Matt is joined his old Jewbook homie social worker and antizionist Jew Ben Ziggy (@evelkneidel), for a conversation about the IRL billboard poster JewBelong.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Moshwamha, bitch, terrific polka-toe, we invented the dirty tomato, and weighs USB drives and the iron go. Israeli salacuzzi stents his office orange rose. Iro chips is us, iPhone cameras bus, taco salads us us, both-a-mobodas, all of garden us, white foster us, Zabra Hamas, Hasbara suss. Welcome to Bad Hasbara, the world's most moral podcast. My name is Matt Lieb. I am going to be your host for this evening, I don't know, for this episode, for this podcast. Welcome to episode one. There was kind of a half episode that came out just a bit ago in which I explained what the podcast was going to be.

But this is technically episode. We're starting now. So don't even, that other one is not. canon. All the stories that I told on that one, that does, if I tell them again, I'm allowed because I didn't tell them on this episode. Until now, nothing else counts. So anyways, hi, I'm Matt Leap. Very excited for you to listen to this podcast about Hasbara. What is Hasbara? Hasbara is a Hebrew word for shit I just made up to explain why that thing you saw isn't actually what you saw. Your eyes are lying to. You.

you. And I am telling you the truth. Sleep now. Uh, and today we're going to be talking about all sorts of stuff. Uh, we are going to be talking with a good friend of mine. He is a social worker. He is a Jewish anti-Zionist and he is a creator on TikTok. Ladies and gentlemen, everyone else, welcome Ben Ziggi. Hey, how's it going? Thank you for having me. Of course, man. It's going good. How, how are you doing? I'm doing good, doing good. Taking a break from work on vacation. Hope to get some work done. You're going to work on vacation? Yeah. Yeah. You know, around the house, stuff like that. I'm doing that too. That's literally what I'm doing this very second. I shouldn't be, but you know, sometimes podcasting is just more important than family.

You know what I'm saying? So I want to talk about our history. Ben, this is the first time I think that you and I have, well, not the first time. I feel like we probably have interacted vocally before. At least it feels that way. We know each other from Jew book 2015, I would say. Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for those you are not familiar with Jew book, um jew book was you see back in the day facebook started to uh be trash and what happened was facebook became this place where the only good thing were these things called facebook groups and for uh jewish people there was a bunch of jewish facebook groups where a bunch of jews got together and it like it like ran the entire spectrum politically there was like super zionist groups

there were anti-zionist groups there were liberal zionist groups and we all ended up like meeting each other and fighting um and it was uh fun and traumatic and it really like really niche like i feel like if any outside observers saw what we were talking about they'd be like what the fuck What the fuck are these Jews talking about? Yeah, it was very much like this balkanized version of Jewish internet. And like you would take arguments from one group to another. Yeah. And just change whatever the topic was.

But the beef remained constant. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's people who like, I'm certain we're still beefing, even though I haven't been on Facebook since like 2017. Like, but I'm certain that we, we are still talking shit about each other. It's actually funny. In one of the groups, so I told you that somebody posted that, oh, you're doing this podcast.

And so she said, yeah, Matt is doing this podcast. And then I comment on the other one would say, tell that coward to unblock me. I'm not even kidding. I love that. I didn't even know I had blocked someone. I mean, I'm certain I did. You know, I have a pretty heavy block finger when it comes to psychopaths. But maybe I will. Maybe I will unblock them. There was a, there was just like a lot of, a lot of great characters on there. And like a lot of the discussions that we had, you know, back in the day, it was just an inter-Jewish discussion.

Arguments about Zionism that weren't being taken to, I would say, like the outside world. And for a lot of different reasons. Sorry, I was going to say it was a lot of inside baseball sort of conversations that wasn't like happening in front of like the rest of the people on Twitter and I guess Instagram at the time for sure. Yeah. And the reason for that, at least for me specifically, I remember there was a long time where I was really uncomfortable talking about like saying my full feelings about Israel in front of people who weren't Jewish because of the. fact that I was like, you know, I mean, I was like a big critic of it, but I would be suspicious every time someone who wasn't Jewish was a critic. I'd be like, well, why do you even care? Even though they agreed with literally everything I said, I would be like, yeah, but it's weird that you think that. Like only I should be able to recognize apartheid. For you, there's got to be something more to it. I don't know if that was your feeling or experience.

at any point. I'm actually interested to know more about you, Ben, in terms of where you're coming from. So I could do a whole, like, several episode arc on my whole Jewish life. But in short, I was in sort of a lot of Jewish religious communities for a while. And as I started to take, you know, some distance from those groups, especially around when Trump started to rise, that was like, hey, this place doesn't feel safe for me. A lot of where I went was, online in a lot of these Facebook groups. And at that point, like, I would say I was more one of those people who was like, well, I support Israel, but I'm against the Israeli government. And a lot of these groups, and especially about Hasbara, like, really allowed me to

like flesh out and explore and reflect in some of those things. And, like, having those discussions out loud was what really pushed me, like, as much as a lot of things left, you know, to being not just like I support Palestinians, but like I am staunch anti-Zionist and recognizing how that contradiction had to play out, for sure. Yeah, yeah. And so did you, was there any kind of like a moment in which you decided to, you know, take it from the Jewish Facebook groups out into the world? Yeah, I think part of it was when,

like just going on like left Twitter, which is a disaster area, which I'm so glad is, I think, slowly dying. It's like one of the last things that's going on on Twitter other than just like Bitcoin Bros. Yeah. But yeah, I think it was on Twitter and kind of reflecting those and taking actual, my opinion, because Drewbook was still sort of like a bubble. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And actually taking it out into left spaces where a lot of those views. had to be really countered and some of the assumptions that I had, which were wrong. For example, I used to actually believe the notion that, you know, from the river to the sea was this genocidal notion for, you know, the killing of all Jews in Israel. And then for the first time on Twitter, I actually had to, like, defend those views. And I'm like, oh, I can't stand on here. It's wrong. I mean, I was also like, I think I was ready.

you know, I was primed at some point because a lot of people can have those, you know, views challenged and it won't, nothing will happen. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, for sure. There's, I would say, a shocking amount of people can have those views challenged and not move a single inch. Yeah. And I think that is something that I've seen now to a degree where I'm just like, well, what's going to do it for you?

you buddy uh which is one of the reasons i wanted to start this podcast because i i wanted to talk to people who i'm like is everyone else going fucking crazy or am i insane you are not um actually i think it's something that maybe you might be familiar with so and as a social worker i obviously i treat people and one of the things that i work in is um actually substance and um a lot of people if you're not familiar there are something called the five stages of change it's called the trans something stages of change. I can't remember what it's called because I don't have a textbook in front of me. Yeah, yeah. Someone is like looking to change or heal. You know, there are different stages that they're in. And the first one is called pre-contemplation. And that is at the point when they have zero interest in changing.

And there's nothing you could do. Their life could be falling apart. They could be drinking, falling down the gutter. And you could be like, hey, man, you've got blood on you. Where did that come from? And they'll be like, I don't know. And I do think the change from like understanding what Israel actually is, you know, can very much be applied to this. You know, if you are very much deep in that mindset, there is no facts. There is nothing. No information that's going to penetrate you. So you're alluding to with me, I was a drug addict for many years. And then I'm now a sober person.

And so I've been sober for about 14. years and like I also have noticed the similarities between substance abuse and Zionism like

Israel is like kind of it's like heroin in for many people in that you would like literally

sell your soul in order to keep keep going with it um yeah no for sure i i've i've seen that happen and uh i've i mean i've experienced it dude i tell you heroin the thing about heroin though is like heroin i feel like everyone can get down like you know heroin is like like you know it doesn't see color you know what i mean like heroin doesn't care what religion what race ethnicity how much money you have like it feels good for everybody and I think kind of like heroin or unlike heroin I don't know there isn't a heroin lobby that is paying like $1,200 I mean

they're Mike's kind of is you know yeah paying thousands of dollars for new heroin users to take a trip to to heroin land oh God I want to go to heroin land oh dude I want who birthright and heroin lands so bad. I'd be like, you know, heroin is why people first started making cherry tomatoes. You know, right? It's just like. You know, if you didn't have heroin, then you wouldn't have that heart stent that's in your father's heart right now.

So, you know, maybe talk a little less sure about heroin. Oh, man. I do love the idea that, like, as part of, you know, reparations for the Holocaust, Germany helped fund heroin for every June. They got us again! Yeah, so this group, this podcast is named, I got the name specifically from one of the groups where we talked a lot, which was Bad Hasbara.

Now, I will say that for a good portion of this podcast, there are going to be certain words that I'm saying in Hebrew that are, are words I've only read and not quite heard. So I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. Hasbara is how it looks. Hasbara is something I've heard someone else say. So, you know, if you know the correct pronunciation, I don't know, write it in an email. Well, here's the thing that is that Hebrew's old as shit.

That's true. So we don't know. Yeah, that's the thing. We don't actually know. We don't actually know. That's the truth. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So basically, if the way I'm pronouncing it is just the way it's going to be pronounced. That's how it's going to be. And we're just going to go with it. So speaking of Hasbara, we have a few, you know, so we have a few examples of some fun stuff that happened. I mean, since the seventh, the internet has become. this, I would say, I don't want to say cesspool, because I feel like that, you know, it's always

a cesspool. Exactly. It was already a cesspool. Yeah. But now it is. It's distilled. Yes, exactly. Distilled and almost refined in a way that I'm like, oh, I know this cesspool.

I've been in this cesspool for years and years. And so I'm now seeing a lot of it like breakthrough and Twitter especially. I think Elon has decided, I don't know how often you're on Twitter. but not a lot so Elon Musk um he uh he does not like the Jews um but in order to um not get yelled at uh and in order to finally have an advertiser that wants him uh he has decided to hide behind his love of uh Israel in order to not be called an anti semi might by the ADL. So there's been a lot of like my for you page on Twitter is nothing but all of like the

greatest hits of Hasbarists from years past. I mean, we've got Hen Mazig, like Richie Torres is, he's everywhere. Rabbi Shmuli, he is, he is everywhere. He is just like, they are there. tweeting up a storm his daughter his daughter is also like a new burgeoning star on ticto oh yeah yeah dude so his daughter not the sex shop one a different oh oh a different one okay i thought you're talking about the one who like sold like uh kosher lube no a different one okay a different one i you know i'm a lot of kids it makes sense he has a lot of kids that's kind of his whole thing is just like

he's the rabbi who fucks i believe that is what he is known for he's the rabbi who fucks he's also the rabbi who was friends with Michael Jackson. Yeah. You know, it's like he's a problematic guy. I mean, I feel like Rabbi Shmuli got famous from

he had a primetime reality TV show and it was basically where he was sort of a relationship guide, if I remember correctly. And he would teach people you know that the key to a good marriage is when you do a lot of fucky-sucky and um and it was on TV and that's kind of where he became sort of a national figure even though he's still kind of

like a I don't know he also ran for Congress at one point oh did he I think in New Jersey the funny thing is like as a rabbi and he comes from like the same uh like group or world that I was in which is Habad, I was for a while. But in the Habbat, he's not really taken seriously. Like he's not like a big figure there. You know,

he's kind of like viewed as kind of a joke. Yeah. You know, exactly as the way he sees him. Like it's a very narrow niche of people who actually find him insightful. And that's what I find interesting about his fame. That's interesting.

I would, I would figure he would at least have like Habadnik support. It's such. lot so he's mostly it seems to me then mostly what he is is like if you are someone who needs to have a photo up next to a rabbi who says no he's all right exactly then he's your guy um okay so that's that's a cool little career he has um but yeah like i've been seeing him i've been seeing a bunch of other, you know, great, great has bars. But then I've also seen some new ones. Oh, I'm sorry, Ben. Did you have something you were going to say?

I was going to say some old, like, Jew book alumni, Rudy Rockman. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. What's his name? The guy from Canada. He's like the indigenous activist. Oh, my God. Yes. You know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember him. Oh, it's the giant minutes. Ryan, Ryan, Belarus. Yes. Is he the one who is, his whole thing is defending Zionism because it is an indigenous rights movement? Yeah, he's like one of the, he's like one of the guys who really pushed that into like Jewish consciousness. Like he's one of like Rudy Rockman was another one. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That's another thing that's like relatively recent. Like yeah. Mostly since 2010, 2014. Oh, that is, that's a wonderful, a wonderful little. rabbit hole to go down is people, because you'll, I mean, if you'll see the majority of people who are indigenous and talking about Zionism, they are certainly not saying that the indigenous people

of the land are the Zionists. That is not a position that they're taking. But, you know, that, of course, leaves a beautiful opening for someone who's both indigenous and, you know, and a grifter. And, you know, these are, these are all people that we're going to for sure go and do some deep dives into as this podcast goes on because they are, they're all fascinating. Like the entire world of Asparra is just, it's a series of different grifters who found a niche that works for them. You know, it's like, if Israel didn't exist, they'd be selling NFTs, you know, they'd be, you know, they would be doing multi-level marketing schemes, drop shipping. Like, these guys are, they've found something and they've grabbed onto it. But I found some new people. And I just, I very much enjoy, like, just going through my Twitter timeline and just seeing what the new Hasbara line is.

a fun one recently was this guy who has this uh so i don't know how to pronounce his name luai Ahmed um and he had a tweet in which he says did they call the death of 377,000 Yemenis a genocide nope did they call the death of 236,000 Afghans of genocide nine did they call the death of and then he just goes on and on um here's his implication here that afghan speak german i don't know why he wrote nine for the afghans one i'm not really sure uh yeah i you know as it kind of goes on uh there's just different versions of no and different languages and like somalis uh did they call the death of 500 000 somalis a genocide and then i believe that's a Japanese for no next to it.

And I'm like... The funny is the one next to Iraqi, that's Hebrew, low. Yeah. And the Libyans one is, I think that's Russian. Yeah, it's in Cyrillic. Yeah. But I mean, if we're just going to start with the first one here, 377,000 Yemenis a genocide.

Yes. Yep. Lots of people called that a genocide. Yeah. Yeah, this is like, you know, a quick Google search for Yemen genocide will have articles such as from the Guardian. When will America stop participating in Yemen's genocidal war by Mark Weissbrot? Like, this is the level of Asbarra has never been so easily debunkable via Google search that it, like, It warms my heart a little bit because it's always been stupid, but it's, I've never felt it was that stupid before, you know?

Again, but like, again, this is, I think one of the main points is that if you want to, like, if you want to, but if you're someone who is, again, in that, you know, pre-changed stage and you have this no interest in actually learning something and you are really looking for stuff that confirms your priors, which is basically what these guys are doing. Yeah. This is perfect. This is gold. Yeah. They said that had a 1.1 million views. Yeah. So like, yeah, 1.1 million views.

Working on somebody. Yeah. I mean, you know, like, you know, that's a lot of people who are looking at it and you're going, yeah. So if they're not calling those other genocides of genocide, why are they so obsessed with a couple thousand, you know, dead children in two months? yeah yeah it is it is it's a fun it's a fun little game that I think a lot of Zionists like to play which is just like people who are um it's it's not that you know like the genocide is bad it's that it's like well it's not that bad compared to like other things so let's talk And another thing about this is, like, how unworldly a lot of these people are.

Oh, yeah. And just not even having any experience of knowing that, yeah, people were kind of bad about Yemen. Yeah. Wait, you weren't around for that? Yeah. It is a strange thing where it's, you kind of go like, did you just wake up just now to politics? And I kind of think that that's the case for a. lot of people. I had noticed that like there is a good amount of people who like maybe were

never political before who are like this is a wake in the sort of nationalism and a lot of them. And so they it's like the first time that they've ever cared about a political issue and they're like mad that most people are on the other side of it. You know what I'm saying? yeah so it's uh it's very strange um and it's a lot of fun but uh i want to talk about an organization that if you are in the los angeles area um and i i'm sure it's everywhere but um i only know it from my own neighborhood um it's called jew belong dot org oh my god now um what i'm not sure what you know about have you do you guys have you're in new york right? Yeah. Do you guys have Jew belong? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, there's a big one on the BQE. So if you're

driving that, I used to where I used to live, when I was driving to work, I would drive on the BQE going south. There was a giant one. I think there still is one, which I think it says, and a lot of them are kind of innocuous, you know, like it doesn't seem like anything that you would argue with. And so the one there says, we're only 70 years removed from the gas chambers. So I don't think calling out Jew hate is a bad thing or something, or is uncalled, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you noticed the paragraphs, like the sentences are getting longer.

Like, it used to be real short. It just, you know, it would just be like, you know, it would be something along the line. of a cutesy thing about like, you know, being a Jew and just like, you know, hey, that means that on Christmas the movie theaters are free, you know, like, yeah, or it was like, um, did you know, we also like Chinese food. It was like Fran Drescher on the nanny level observations of New York Jewish culture half the time. Yes. It was, it was always like a, it was cutesy. It was, Like, you could tell it was coming, you, I feel like early on, you couldn't really tell politically what this was about. It was just like, it was just kind of, oh, this is an org making, like, it's just affirmation signs in L.A. being like, it's okay that you're Jewish.

And you're like, okay, thank you. I think like networking like singles events and stuff like that that was the main yeah originally yeah like that makes sense to me because of the way it it kind of so we had yeah we don't care which half of you is Jewish Jew belong dot org okay sweet cultural Jews died in the gas chambers too speak up okay sure um you know uh can a billboard end anti-semitism no but you're not a billboard. Jubalong.org. It's like, okay.

Like, I, like, I didn't have necessarily a problem with it earlier on. But as, ever since the seventh, screeds, like, this is like, it's like rage posting, but they're putting it on, like, physical mediums. And so some of the ones that have come out since the seventh have been insane. So we have, um, jubalong, uh, put out this. Enough with the sanctimonious quote, I want a ceasefire and my words are important because my grandparents were Holocaust survivors, close quote. Well, I'm speaking for the ones who didn't survive and I want the goddamn hostages back. Jubalong.org.

So, a lot to unpack there. First of all, too long. Not going to fit into a regular billboard. No editor. No editor. This is literally got to be just one person. um i like it's clearly just a person and uh so also like this is a very specific grievance i want to see fire and my words are important because my grandparents were holocaust you're talking to like

who are you talking to you know is this like so is this someone you know or is this and also are we shitting on the families of Holocaust survivors in this apparently that's like there's a man it's also like i know like this is one very specific person but there are also people who have said like well i have relatives who died in the holocaust you know and this is not what i want yes and she's just like aiming like very it's like a keyhole satellite aimed at like one guy yeah it should just end with like showed up to a pro-palcinge protest for the sign Yeah, it should, it literally, it should end with, you know, with this cut the bull crap, Greg. Like, it's like, we know there's someone you're talking to, but also there have been, I mean, you know, there's tons of Jewish American anti-Zionists who come from families of Holocaust survivors and who, you know, very rightly and correctly talk about how never again.

doesn't just apply to Jewish people. It applies broadly to any situation, which you have like a growing genocidal sentiment within a society. And like to shit on that to use other Holocaust people, like people who didn't survive the Holocaust as your, I don't know, as your avatar for anger is just like, it's like sickening and also. so hilariously tone deaf.

And like the amount of tone deafness has been a lot of fun to watch with Jubalong.org. The amazing thing with Jubalong, I think, is like, I remember, and I'm sure we've all experienced this time when we had like Twitter and it was on our phones. And that's one of the things I like about TikTok is that like you can start saying something stupid and halfway there you're like, I should shut the fuck up. But with Twitter, it was like, because we all grew up in the

The Mavis Beacon Generation can type too way too fucking fast. And like the thought is like on the internet before we have a time to think about it. And like we all said something stupid. But this person like does that with like 30 foot billboards. Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, you can you can delete a tweet. I mean, it'll exist.

You know, if someone, you know, keeps a receipt. But you can you can delete it. This is. this is like someone who is you're setting it in stone this is someone who is like that confident in their in their tweet game and the thing is it wasn't always tweets

so according to the internet the brain behind these ads oh hold on yes is Archie Grotsman the co-founder of Jubalong whose original marketing campaigns

so you wait You eat bacon. God has other things to worry about. And when you, uh, hold on, when you need a, uh, Catuba and someone to tell you what it is, uh, were admired by some for bringing an openness and sest, uh, to the often stodgy world of organized Jewish lives. Uh, I'll give this much. She's clever. Like she's not. Yeah. Um, no, well, that's a thing. He's creative. Yeah. Like, early on, there was a lot of, um, of cleverness to it, or kind of just like cutciness to it, where you're just like, all right, you know, this person's having a little fun, trying to, trying to like make it a little bit loose.

Well, if I remember correctly, she's also the, like, where she got all this money was she was the one behind, like, the storage ads. Yes, that's right. That's right. Yes. If you were in New York during George W. Bush's presidency, the hot pink signs might feel familiar. They recall the- Did they get ahead of you? Sorry. No, no, no, no. That's fine. They recall. all the provocative billboards for Manhattan mini storage that blared slogans like if you don't like gay marriage, don't get

gay married. And with a picture of a wire hanger, your closet space is shrinking as fast as her right to choose. Like, you know, this is, this was kind of the word, like sort of a liberal, you know,

Democrat kind of posting. You know, this is like, this is a slogan creator for for the liberals it's compact it's catchy it's memorable yes it's good at what she does she's good at what she does it's good marketing but much like um many boomer brains and you know a lot of brains of younger people that i know uh after october seventh uh brain broke and so we got uh you know we got posts like this one yes we light a menorah but but call it a person aura if that's less trigger triggery jub belong dot org we're talking about

like like this is just a complete pivoted yeah she turf pivoted yeah yeah very fast and i think that that is going to be another thing that we follow is how many people uh will go from like Zionism to, oh, I'm also a turf now because it just, uh, it just, it, it all falls in line in the same kind of like reactionary space of just like, you know, I'm, uh, I'm someone who's mad at the green haired college kids and who they all have ADHD and they all are bi-curious and trans and what happened to a regular America. It's funny how quickly, like, liberal Americans are turning into conservatives where they're just like, I remember in my day, there was only gay people and lesbians. And now there's too many letters.

And it's like, this is. Yeah. It's a space that, like, I think Barry White's very much, like, spent the last five years. Yeah. Maybe not creating, but she definitely was, like, kind of pivotal in expanding it. Yeah. And the funny thing is she'll say, like, well, you know, these young kids. people it's like i'm older than barry white so i think you are too like she's not i know i probably am

like three it's like i think she's like what 37 36 something like that like god am i fucking older than very white that makes me so sad you know i should it's because we chose the wrong career dude we should have just been trying to get professors fired this whole time. Do you know how rich we would be if we had just taken this path? I could have done it. I was riding for the forward. And then eventually like, yeah, one of the things that like really kind of put me down

this path was just not wanting to put up with like their shit, which was very much like Barry Weiss adjacent. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And man, like the way the split in the. forward has been another interesting thing to watch in the last few years. I knew a lot of like,

you know, I think thoughtful, smart people who would write for the forward and then have to work with people like Baccia who like

fucking, like is now a regular presence on Fox News, I think. Yeah, I think she works for Newsweek and yeah, she'll be at Fox News and other places. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, Yeah, continuing on with Jubalong, some good news out of all the darkness of what's

happened with Jubalong is, so we had a, one of their signs was that Hamas is your problem, too. And wonderfully, JVP did a little bit, did a little bit of a little bit of. of action, a little bit of street art. They liberated it. They liberated the sign and they changed it to. Let's be clear, Zionism is your problem too. And Jews for Free Palestine is the sign instead of Jew belong. And here's a little bit statement from it.

Jubalong co-founder, Archie Gottzman, had strong words in response to the defacement. the vandals who defaced the billboards have made it crystal clear that they are pro terrorists and that should outrage and alarm Americans. Gottsman said in an email to Jay, quote, The billboards merely stated that Hamas is a problem for all Americans as Hamas wants to destroy the Western way of life and American values. Jew belong, believes in the goal of peace for Palestinian and Israeli people and is deeply troubled that terrorists are standing in the way of that peace. Hold on a second. I just want to like zero and on that one part there. Let's please do it.

And I've started to see this a lot more. And it's so funny because it coexist with something that it can't. Is this notion that anti-Semitism is a proxy for anti-Western values? Yes. Which is again, like a very like 9-11 post-9-11 era thing when a lot of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and actions in Pakistan and other things. were co-signed and aided by Israel. And Israel very much positioned itself, you know, not as this indigenous movement,

but very much as like the frontier and the bulwark against, you know, terrorism and anti-Americanism. Yeah. And the Western outpost. The Western outpost. In the Middle East. Yeah. But it's like it was the exact opposite.

Like most anti-Semitism was this Western infringing upon, you know, this group in their own midst that they said, we're against Western values. So it's like the exact opposite. And again, this is the exact opposite of like an indigenous rights movement. Because indigenous rights are very much in 100% conflict with Western values. Yes.

Imperialism and colonialism. It's like they're trying to hold these two different ideas in their head and they're completely incompatible. Yeah. It's like part of the cognitive dissonance of Zionist. kind of like narrative and as has barra is they're doing two things at the same time they are taking the stance that you know uh for their younger more liberal minded people like you know this is uh this is an indigenous rights movement like actually we're woke you know while at the

same time uh saying that they are um you know they reflect all the western values of freedom and democracy and all of these things that uh yeah it puts them completely in conflict with the idea of like being these because as you were saying uh like if you talk to you know european anti semites the jews being a western people with the same values was not the charge yeah like not at all there is and and to have that be your fallback is insane. But beyond that, also, Hamas wants to destroy the Western way of life and American values. Like, this is something that I have seen now, ever since people lost their minds. The big thing that I've been hearing, and then this is I've been hearing personally in

my life, is you think you're not next when talking about. talking about Hamas. And I just want to say, I want to dig into that logistically. What do they think Hamas is? Do they think Hamas is in America? Do they think they are supervillains with an entire, like, mole people who live under the ground, who are going to, like, dig a ton? Because the way people have been acting, I swear to God, especially in L.A. in the entertainment

industry, you'd think that Hamas had dug a tunnel through the center of the earth straight into Brentwood. Through the fault lines? Yeah, through the fault lines, like through the San Andreas fault and then into like fucking, you know, Los Feliz with like the mission to kidnap only the most successful. comedians. You know, like, not just, not just any Jews, but like the ones who are the most scared are the ones with the most accolades. I swear to God. Like my, my wife has been yelled at by two Academy Award nominated people about how she is making them feel unsafe. Not even winners. Nominees. Yeah, they didn't win. They didn't win. So, you know, if they had won, maybe they'd feel a little bit more safe um that's one of the purse yeah

it's like part of the gift bag you go to the vogue party you get the gift bag you get a car you get a nice watch little iron dome like Howard just for you get an iron dome a mini iron dome just for your uh your mansion in belair yeah uh but um fucking uh the idea of humas i you know it's like part of this like conflation that they've been trying ever since like the eighth which is Hamas Hamas equals ISIS yeah um you know it's not just Israel's problem in this very specific part of Israel in the land you know what I mean it's like geographically very very much contained thing Hamas yeah but it's like as soon as they try to conflate it as being the same as

ISIS. Then they're bringing up, oh, you know, ISIS, you know, this is part of an ideology that like, you know, took over not just the Middle East, but there was like mass shootings in in fucking Europe and in the United States. Like, they're trying to Al-Qaeda eyes for like a hundred percent. And Al-Qaeda never was even that big. Like, Akita kind of had like a, they had a hit. They had a big hit. They had one really big hit. Their early shit was kind of good with the, you know, the U.S.S. coal. That was like the bleach of Al-Qaeda. That was the sub-pop years. That was when they were the indie record they put out and they're like, oh, shit, they did that. Yeah.

All right. Yeah. Yeah. And then David Geffen came in. He said, we're going to make you guys huge. Do 9-11. But yeah, like the idea of Hamas being. you know this al-Qaeda like you know splinter cell organization with like you know

there was people saying that they're trying to get in through Mexico and I'm like oh man they are really banking on the American public's general ignorance about like Arab organizations it's not a bad bad yeah yeah it's a good I understand it like I but as you know when you When you know when you're familiar with Hamas and you're familiar with Israel and the situation they got over there, it's very ridiculous sounding because it is it is an insanely specific thing that they are trying to universalize. Yeah, it's ridiculous, but it's not like unprecedented in that. It's very much like the orientalist view of a lot of these groups. And the moral panicky, you know, notion where it's, this thing is just bigger than it could possibly ever be logistically. Yeah.

Like when Oprah was going on about those ring parties or the satanic panic. Yeah. Yeah. Where they put in broken glass and Halloween candy or whatever it is. And it's also. The rainbow fentanyl, rainbow fentanyl skittles. Rainbow fentanyl scales. the uh yeah uh and this notion also that these groups are barbarians who just kill for no other reason

than that's what they enjoy doing blood love there's no aim there's no ideology there's no sense of humanity in there it's like there's this entire group of millions of people the Palestinians who hate Jews so much that they're willing to sacrifice their children, their homes, their livelihoods, their farms, just to make you look bad. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's what they're all about. It's racist and also just fantastic in a way that is like unbelievable. It's just not realistic. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's turned Hamas into like a super villain status. Like they, they, they, they, they, need people to believe that Hamas has the ability to, uh, like, get your children in Santa

Monica, uh, because, you know, they, otherwise, if you look at what is what Hamas actually is, and how they're very much in a very specific geographical location that is literally surrounded by walls and barbed wire. You're like, oh, uh, this is, uh, this is feeling, less like showtimes homeland. You know what I mean? Like this is not

this is not a Tom Clancy novel about like secret cells of Islamic terrorists. This is no. And as you said is very small. It's relatively it's small. It's about 25 miles long, you know. And I forgot how many miles wide.

It's proportionate to like Manhattan. Right. You know, twice is like twice that's size, like long, and I think with, which, you know, is something that a person in semi-decent shape, you know, every year, hundreds of people run that distance in New York and L.A. and Boston and wherever. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's where they are. And again, I think somebody else pointed out once that, like, 85% of Hamas fighters are orphans. Like, they lost either one or both of their parents, you know, in either, you know, the campaign and 2014, which killed 2,400 people or in other campaigns, you know?

But, yeah, the point is, is that, like, Hamas is not this global threat. It is, it is, it is not something that you can apply, uh, as kind of clumsily as you apply to any, uh, Islamic fundamentalist terrorist organization and like, you know, the odds. It's, again, it's part of this, um, this habit, you know, this long racist habit. of Orientalism, which is the West projecting its worst fears and it's working, not just projecting itself, like, its worst qualities onto the people that's trying to harm. Right.

The U.S. is the global threat. The U.S. is the one with bases in, I don't know how many hundreds of countries, which has, like, a stranglehold on Central Africa, which is bases in Australia, you know, all over the place, you know, which is killing people in countries, which is invaded, which has, like, interfered with governments that's the global threat we're the global threat yeah yeah yeah i mean but you know we're also you know we're we're the good guys though yeah we're america do the good things america but america good we can all agree america bring macdonalds america bring happy america make happy so we're you know the dollar menu does slap the dollar menu slaps you

think that they have the dollar menu in um africa no but if you think they have the dollar menu this is uh this is a version of argument i see i wish i could just be this guy you know the guy who's just like america good because i can get hamburger that's free dumb it's low effort and it's high paying which is really what we all want oh man and yeah low effort high pay and use pay money to eat more hamburger that's all I want um but yeah you know in conclusion this uh you know Hamas uh equals ISIS equals global threat equals be scared be scared is it's just so phony and so uh cheap and of course fake um and you know that's not to say that like, uh, you know, uh, once again on this podcast, uh, we do not support anyone.

Uh, and, uh, and, uh, and you lose your job for something like that. Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You don't support no one. Uh, but yeah. Uh, you know, it's just the idea of, uh, trying to make, uh, I don't know, the, the people who I know in Culver city like scared of Hamas is like it's it is a way to just um make you be on the lookout for Hamas and then as soon as you see a um college kid uh with a ceasefire shirt on you're just like maybe that's Hamas and that is and that's what a lot of like I didn't do you see I don't if it was a it wasn't an SNL sketch it was somebody again who had enough money to make this relatively well-produced skit

about the two college students and I think one of them had green hair and they're both clearly queer-coded Oh yeah. It was Israel. Israel's like their like big late-night sketch show right? Yeah. I think it's like their Saturday night live.

Yeah, it's like Sunday night, you know. I guess they could still do it Saturday night. It's after Shabbat. Young Shabbat Night Live. Live. from Tel Aviv. Yeah, yeah, live from Tel Aviv.

Most of Chavez. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, there's like two queer-coded, like, American college students who are just like, we support Hamas. Yeah. You're, yeah. The German for some reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is, my Israeli accent is going to change multiple times throughout. because I'm trying to do an Israeli accent of them doing an American like queer accent so it's a lot going on you need to get with guilty to do that like yeah I know

he would crush it Dominic West yeah because he knows how to just like really like say oh fuck it who needs to get the accent right I'm just going to just make it weird and be confident about it but yeah

Yeah, I saw that sketch. It was just, it's the same joke over and over again. It's just like. The same joke over and over again. And again, I think one of the things that a lot of people should always pay attention to is when you see propaganda out there, like, what is the really well-produced stuff? Like, what is the stuff that clearly has like lighting and multiple takes and a lot? And versus what is the people just kind of standing out on the street, you know, talking to a camera?

Right. Another one that went out on the Israel TikTok, which was this scripted and, like, well-lit, like short, like three or four-minute thing where a woman was saying, well, I was sexually assaulted by a Hamas fighter, and she goes to a world organization to say, well, we saw her, we can't help legitimate resistance. Again, well-produced, well-funded. I don't say well-produced, but it's clearly got money. behind it yeah oh i saw that one yeah that that is uh the one where um uh oh no what country are you from and she was like israel and they were like we can't help you and uh that was um you know it's uh listen israel uh israel social media people are um they're not sending their best and neither are there uh like heavy handed attempts at shaming institutions

like Amnesty International. And they don't have to because the main thing that I've come to like really believe about a lot of Hasbara is that it's not aimed at us. It's not aimed at Palestinian supporters. It's not even, I don't think, aimed at people who are on the fence. It is aimed mostly at their own supporters. It's internal against both. I'm not even going to say Israelis because a lot of like it's made that Americans. It's very much Americans, yes.

Yeah, which is, it's a technique that was really like, Bibi Netanyahu, before he was prime minister, before he was a politician, really was one of the people who like pioneered this technique of like appealing to specifically American Jews and their fear of anti-Semitism and this notion of this contradiction between, well, if you support, you know, the women of Hollywood, but not the women of, you know, the Gaza envelope, then clearly that's anti-Semitism. Right. You know, if you support the indigenous people of the Amazon and the United States, but not Tel Aviv, then you're clearly anti-Semitic, you know. It's like clearly, like the indigenous people of Israel who came here and put McDonald's and Smeda-Elaginians. Yes, yes. I mean, listen, eating McDonald's been part of indigenous culture, I think, for thousands of years. and I think we know that to be true. So we thank you, Netanyahu, for pointing that out in such a great fashion.

Speaking of the Amazon, I want to close out this podcast with a little pallet cleanser. Excuse me. A little pallet cleanser about how we're going to solve the conflict in the Middle East with a small clip from the wonderful, brilliant genius. political scientist, Marianne Williamson. What she do now? I think this is an older clip

of a little interview she's doing with a familiar face, Mr. James Cameron. You might know, I want to tell you this. I was in Israel and I was talking to some Israeli and Palestinian peacemakers. And I said, I'm telling the truth. I said, well, you know, the great mother doesn't choose sides. According to Avatar, the great mother doesn't choose side. She's there to protect balance. She doesn't pick a winner.

She protects balance. And do you know what the Palestinian and the Israelis in the room? Do you know their reaction? What they say? They thought about it. That's good. And I think it was because some of them have seen Avatar. That made me feel really good. And I think we can, can close it out there. Thank you, Marianne Williamson. I think that we all need to see Avatar. Ben Ziggi, thank you so much for coming on the first ever episode of Bad Hasbara. Thank you for having me. I feel like a pioneer. Yeah, you are. You are literally a settler. Thank you all for listening. And, you know, if you want to email, fratcast at gmail.com, and if you want all of the content that,

We do over at the Frotcast, Patreon.com slash frotcast. And, yeah, Ben, where can people find you? You can find me at Evil Canatal on TikTok or Instagram. That's E-E-E-V-E-L-K-N-E-I-D-E-L. It's like Evil-K-E-E-L but Can-A-L like a matzo-ball. Yeah. That is a mnemonic for like five people. Yeah, yeah.

But it is great content. you you uh i i love watching uh what you do and uh you know i'm just i'm just glad there are some people from uh jew book who are still out here and uh you know speak in truth to i would say power but it's to like other kids you know we're not kids anymore though now we're old we're fucking older and barry we're 40 i'll kill myself i'm fucking kill myself um all right fellas Until next time Oh, I never I haven't figured out

What the sign out is Lila Tos? I don't know I'll figure something There is a list Yeah Yeah Until next time

There is a list Us God magas us All karate us Takey Molly us Michael Jackson us Yamaha keyboards Us

Georgia makes not us Andor was us Keith Ledger Joker us End with spread success. Happy meals was us. McDonald's was us. Being happy us. Beacon yoga us.

Eating food, us. Breathing air, us. Drinky water us. We invented all that shit.