Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - Bad Hasbara 14: Hate Crime or Bait Crime, with Owen Jones

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Today Matt Lieb is joined by British socialist, political commentator, and all around good guy Owen Jones to talk about how Israel uses accusations of antisemitism to justify brutality. They also talk about how Piers Morgan is an accidental ally.Join the Patreon to support this podcast!Buy tickets to see Matt Lieb and Francesca Fiorentini headline the Punch Line in Sacramento on Sunday, March 17th at 7pm.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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All of garden us White foster us Zabra Hamas Hasbaras us And welcome to Bad Hasbara, the world's most moral podcast. I am your host, Matt Lieb, the world's most moral host, I suppose. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of this podcast. You know, if you're listening to it on Spotify or on Apple Podcast app,

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songs background music is apparently someone else's uh so so anyways point is listen to the podcast you don't need to look at me i'm ugly as fuck uh but if you insist on watching if you insist on being here on youtube please support me by going to the new patreon that we have patreon.com slash bad hasbara you'll get every episode of this show plus uh some new shit you know i mean you know uh occasional bonus interviews and stuff. I don't know. At some point I'll do a bonus content like a lot of it and you'll be so happy. For now, my shit is very busy. I got a baby. Life's hard. I got like other jobs and stuff. But yeah, support me. Patreon.com slash bad Hasbara. Finally. Oh, excuse me. Sacramento punchline. That's right. It's a comedy club in Sacramento where me and my life, Francesca

Furentini, that was a bore at voice, sorry, will be co-headlining. That is March 17th at the Sacramento Punchline at 7 p.m. There's a ticket link in the bio. Please, please, you know, come, buy tickets. Tell your friends. You all come together. It's, you know, St. Patty's Day. So you can get drunk.

You can laugh at some stuff. It'll be fun. So please, come out. Join me. Okay. Today, ladies and gentlemen and everyone else, we have a hell of a show going to be a lot of fun is a bad word for it because there's not a fun subject but interesting and occasionally fun today's main subject is called hitler i just metler i'm so sorry aka how israel is using allegations of nazism to justify preemptive nazism all right

So, let's get into it. To begin with, here's a quick Israeli government civics lesson. Did you know that Israel has a president? No, not Benjamin Netanyahu, that's the prime minister. I'm talking about president. In this case, his name is Isaac Herzog. And you might be wondering, what the fuck does a president do in Israel? The answer is nothing.

The president, and presidency is a mainly ceremonial position. It doesn't really do anything, has no executive function. It's been offered to people who are not Israeli. Both Eli Wiesel and Albert Einstein were both offered the presidency at one point, and both of them denied it. They turned it down because, you know, they were like, that's weird. I thought this was a democratic country. from what I can tell, the presidency is mostly used to put a more liberal face on an increasingly

fascist state. Every Israeli president has been part of or associated with the liberal Zionist labor party, except for one. There was one Likud party president who became, yeah, a Likud member who became president of Israel. His name was Moshe Katsav. And he was the first. first Mizrahi Jew to be elected president. That's Middle Eastern Jew, for those you don't know. He was also the first to serve five years in prison for rape. Yeah. So that's a story for another time.

But the point is it is a ceremonial position with no executive function. And it does almost nothing. I say almost because it does do one thing. There's one thing that the president does and they excel at it. That's right, Hasbara. So, speaking of Israeli President Hasbara, on February 17th, fake President Isaac Herzog, posted a video of himself on Twitter tweeting, and I have that tweet for everyone here to read, excuse me, he tweeted, on the stage of the Munich Security Conference, I revealed to the viewers around the world,

the anti-Semitic book written by Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar, one of the founders of Hamas which praised the Holocaust, a copy of which was found in a house in the Gaza Strip by ID-Up soldiers. And I have that video here. This book was written by Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar. Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar is one of the founders of Hamas. He's a well-known Hamas leader and a political figure of Hamas. And the book mainly hails the Holocaust. It hails what the Nazis have done and calls for a nation to follow what the Nazis have done.

We have to have a coalition of all of the moderate forces in the world fighting this ideology. Oh, word. Damn. Never mind. Forget that whole ceasefire thing. You can kill everyone. Feel free.

Because like if there's one thing that we can all agree on is wherever you find that book, wherever you find it, it should absolutely be decimated by bombs, gunfire, and death. Unfortunately for the fake president of Israel, Twitter user Ali Lak Rockby found that book in the National Library of Israel. That is correct. That book is in Israel right now.

He found it and then, you know, posted it online. And if you'll notice there, it is not written by Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar. No, in fact, it is actually written by someone named Abu al-Fida Muhammad Araf. And so this has bar was quickly exposed by the Kuds News Network, who tweeted according to picture, shared by the Israeli media. This book is authored by someone called Abu Al-Fida Muhammad Araf. It was first published in the 90s and printed in two Arab countries which do not include Palestine. So apparently the author is Egyptian and it was published in Jetta, Saudi Arabia, and it was published in 1990.

So this is another lie, easily debunked by a quick Google search. Well, maybe not quick, because, you know, if you were to Google search it, first you have to scroll past dozens of articles from news outlets that reported this bullshit is fact. to like the Jerusalem Post, like the Times of Israel, like the New York Post. So that first, but once you scroll far enough, then you find that book and its actual author listed in the National Library of Israel. But let's look beyond the lie for a moment. You know, I only care a little bit that they lie. For me, the question is, why do they lie?

Like, let's say it's true. What does he want you to take away from it? Like, it's not breaking news that, like, Hamas wrote a book that's anti-Semitic, right? That wouldn't, if it was true, that wouldn't be breaking news. Nobody would be surprised by that information. It's something that, in fact, like, I assume someone from Hamas at some point has written a book about hating Jews. That doesn't, you know, shock me or anyone. But that's not what Herzog wants you to remember.

What he wants you to remember is where. the book was allegedly found in a home in Gaza, as he said, not a Hamas barracks, not a Hamas compound, not a Hamas command and control center, a home in Gaza, just some dude's house. And in fact, it's Gaza, so it's not just some dude's house, it's probably a multi-generational family home because that's how it works. So he is saying, and he's trying to convince everyone, that this house, that the men, women, grandparents and children are legitimate targets because they had this book. Now, this kind of has been around for a long time, but it's like everywhere now.

Like, I feel like every week there's a new video of some IDF soldier in Gaza holding up a piece of literature being like, here's some anti-Semitic literature that I found. Here's one that happened early on that is just, it's just fucking insane. It's an Israeli soldier who sounds a lot like an American soldier, by the way, who found a dedication to the martyrs in an anatomy textbook, and here it is. When we say that Hamas instills hate towards Jews and the state of Israel, we're not just saying it. Take a look at this book, for example, anatomy and physiology. So what would you expect to read in this book?

Stuff about anatomy and physiology. So you open the first page, it's a cover page. And look at the second page right here. Dedication. We dedicate this work to the souls of the Palestinian martyrs, sacrifice their blood for Palestine and El-Axa. So this book is dedicated to the terrorists and to the martyrs who committed terror attacks.

Okay, so, all right, listen, this would be, I think, personally, a lot more convincing if you couldn't see the part where you folded it and clearly put it in your pocket at some point and took it out and unfolded it and stuffed it into a book like completely just try try they're not even trying anymore it's embarrassing just to watch just the low effort has barra but there it is um listen i'm just saying it's like you can't do this thing where you keep going like they're teaching their children to hate jews it's like Israel is literally you're teaching your children to bait Jews. You're teaching them to tell Jews, oh, you know, this whole

population. They all want you dead, not just us here in Israel, but you at home. And I don't think that's a healthy thing to teach them. So in the last few months, it feels like there's been video after video of an IDF soldier allegedly finding a little Hitler Easter eggs all over Gaza. For example, here's this tweet that states, Nazi propaganda from infancy, IDF soldiers found Hitler's book, Mink, inside a children's room in the Bethanun neighborhood in Gaza. Yeah, that's right, inside a children's room. Or this video that went viral of an Israeli soldier, who, according to, Hezbaros, who shared it, found a charged iPad and a Gazan teenage girls. bedroom and this was on the cover of it. And here we go.

Now, what do you know? Now, what do you think? Yeah, you know, ah, yes. You know, the point of this video is pretty clear, if you can't tell, it's to make you focus more on the Hitler. and less on the fact that what the hell is a random Israeli soldier doing in a teenage Ghazan girls' bedroom that has been bombed to shit, you know? And then they discover the iPad later, and I'm sorry, but it's got like 88% charge.

This is a lot to believe. But, you know, this is kind of their way of saying see even their kids are Nazis. And this theme of tying children and Hitler together has been something that's been happening throughout the last four months. I mean, it's been happening throughout this entire, quote-unquote, conflict, but it's really picked up speed recently.

But the big one that I found was fake president Isaac Herzog on November 12th, so, you know, barely a few weeks into this atrocious genocide. He put out this video shared by the Hasbara org stand with us where he found another book. So this is Adolf Hitler's book, translated to Arabic, Mind Kampf. It's the book that led to the Holocaust

and the book that led to World War II. Well, this book was found just a few days ago in northern Gaza, in a children's living, room, which was turned into a military operation base of Hamas on the body of one of the terrorists and murderers of Hamas. And he even marked, he wrote notes, he marked, he marked and learned and learned again and again out of Hitler's ideology of hating the Jews, of killing the Jews, of burning the Jews, of slaughtering the Jews.

Again, this would be a lot more convincing. if you couldn't see the fresh post-it right on the brand new book that you took off an allegedly dead guy also is this a Hamas base or a children's living room and what is a children's living room and why mention children at all like what is the point of that and I think that's pretty clear like that's the truly demented part of this whole thing is it's like these videos aren't about proving that Hamas are Nazis. It's about proving that every single Ghazin is a Nazi, including their children. This lie is repeated over and over and over again as if finding a book written by a genocidal maniac justifies preemptive genocide. That's not a thing. Preemptive

genocide is not a phrase. It's just called genocide. Knowingly targeting civilians is a war crime, no matter what ideology you accuse them of having. So when it comes to the Israeli government, you don't actually have to go and bomb their homes and rifle through their bookshelves to find proof that they are genocidal. They'll just tell you. So this is a quote from President Isaac Herzog

that today's guest Owen Jones pointed out was cited as evidence of genocidal statements at the ICJ. and I have that right here. We are working, operating militarily, according to rules of international law, unequivocally. It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It is not true that this rhetoric about civilians are, it's not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved.

It is absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime, which took over Gaza and a coup d'etat. but we are at war we are at war we are at war we are at war we are defending our homes we are protecting our homes blah blah blah I'm evil uh so man you know what good stuff very very good stuff he should write a book he should and then he should plant that book in a Palestinian child's bedroom All right, our guest today is a socialist, political commentator, YouTuber, and frequent target of Hezbaris all over the internet.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome the wonderful Owen Jones. What up? How you doing? Hey, how are you doing? I'm doing good. How are you doing? Do you know what? The world's gone to shit, well, more to shit.

I'm on your show, which is great. So a little from column A, a little from column B. You know, that's the, you know, listen, you got to find, you got to find the silver lining somewhere. It's like, yeah, you know, there's death and destruction and everything sucks. And all of our political institutions are useless. But at least we can podcast sometimes.

Exactly. What I'm trying to say is you're basically in my emotional life raft. And I'm going to cling on. I'm going to cling on for dear life. So don't, don't sink. don't fucking up there's a lot of pressure there's a lot of pressure buddy oh fuck yeah no listen hey uh you can always if you're ever feeling sad if you're ever feeling hopeless come on this podcast and uh you know the you'll still feel sad and hopeless but at least you will have

like talk to so yeah i took that he's red don't get me wrong i took that is red don't don't don't get me wrong yeah i'm in the abyss but but nonetheless some solace relative it's all relative yeah and so you're in at you're in athens greece right now i think that's that's got to be nice what's it like out there do what i think Athens is i don't know i was going to say it's underrated but i don't know what i mean by that because it's not like everyone's just slaggy off athens it's like well-known yeah it's not like people are fine about happens i know i talk shit about about greece all the time so you know let's let's maybe say positive about Greece i know come on leave them alone just because there's a lot they're just

They got overrun by the Roman Empire then, the Ottomans. Jesus, let them. Yeah, do you know what? I think it's warmer than where I grew up. But I'm from a town called Stockport, which it basically is as it sounds. Rains 20, that's 28 days. Got a very nice viaduct, but that's a lot. But this, instead of a viaduct, it's got, it's got the, oh God, what's it called now?

The ocean? The big structure. No, it does have an ocean. No, the Acropolis. The Acropolis. Eucopolis, which is... I don't even know about the Acropolis. Don't know about the Acropolis. Come on.

Come on. Come on. Now, I mean, I didn't remember what it was called myself, but come on. But you got there. I would have never got there. I said the ocean. I'm a fucking idiot. But so, like, you're there. And I've been watching your videos now. You're someone for me, like, I'm new to you. I discovered you after the seventh once I, you know, started, you know, going down this. like rabbit hole of basically just trying to find anyone out there who was actually going to report what's actually happening, you know, in Gaza and in Israel. And I found your stuff. And I have to say, a big fan of what you do, you are one of the, like, for me, a fresh

voice of reason with a British accent because I don't know if you noticed, but I feel like half the Israeli has bars are British and it's just so usually when you hear someone talking about Israel with a British accent at this point I am just hearing just like Alon Levy and like just just just all the like all the ghouls and so it's nice to hear another another another great British exports yeah I love that just British just we won't we won't start just constantly exporting horror school I thought there was this meme on the internet a while ago, which was like how British, how Britain sees itself and how the rest of the world sees itself. And it's like, how Britain sees itself is like this genteel man like drinking tea

with a top hat and just being terribly polite but all the rest of it. And how the rest of the will see is like a crocodile, like an alligator, which has just gone on the rampage. Just exporting genocide. We really, I think genocide is something Britain has always been very good at. And then pretending it never happened, just going la la la la la. No, that's fine. We built the railways And we might, we might, don't talk about killing tens of millions of Indians. We built railways, okay? Exactly. Remember the railways.

Listen, listen. Elon Levi, that's the worst one there, isn't it? It's one of the worst ones yet. We really have hit rock bottom. Yeah, I mean, I feel like, you know, I almost feel like bad for, uh, the, for the rest of Britain. Because, you know, I'm just like, you know, this guy is, he's everywhere now. He's like, I feel like if you're someone who's into this subject who's like been watching the news, he seems to be everywhere and he seems to have made it his mission to make the social media position at a company be something that like where you sell your soul for it. Like, listen, people work doing social media for all sorts of weird shit, you know, I'm sure Lockheed Martin has a Twitter account.

But when you're running the, you know, cover for a genocide, holy fuck, man, that's, that can't possibly be worth it. But he seems to cry. I don't get it. I don't get it as well because Mark, I mean, I don't know if he said, well, we've all seen Mark Ragev. So Mark Ragegov, he's Australian. Speaking of Sat McLuhanian, but he's Australian and he actually, I can see, I can see, I can see what they're trying to do with that guy. He's the former, sorry, Israeli ambassador to Britain. He's got, he's kind of a smooth talker.

I can see what's going on. Elon Levy, I think he just, you can tell he's got this just heart of darkness. You know, he just comes across like, I mean, he's so British. I mean, he's just so British. But like, he's too one-dimensional to put in a film as a bad guy. You'd just be like, two on the nose. Do you know what I mean? You kind of think, put him some complexity.

Put some complexity. less clear malice. And I just think, you know, they've clearly, they just, they need, if I was the Israeli government, I would just maybe flesh him out a bit more, give him more of a character arc. Yeah, he should have been focused grouped a little bit. Because so far, I feel like they're trying to sell us on his, you know, the fact that he raises his eyebrows. Like, they're trying to memeify him.

It's the weirdest thing where I've never seen such a concerted. attempt at like trying to make a celebrity out of someone with zero charisma it's just like also you know what it's funny because you know I you know I don't want to be a backseat driver selling a genocide absolutely yeah yeah that's tricky is it's yeah you know I mean hindsight is 20 20 I know everyone has their way of doing the cover for general exactly it's easier it's easier to critique than to do it but I had a very good friend of mine went to university with him and if you Google Elon Levy. All I'm saying is, I don't want to be overly personal, just because what he represents is just obviously so hideously egregious on its own terms. All I'd say is just

Google Elon Levy from 2013, 2014 at Oxford University. And you will see what's happened there because it's quite the transformation, is all I'm saying. Oh, yeah. He was seen as a bit of a kind of, he was like, you know, a kind of a, a bit of an, I think a nerd is, is being generous. Okay, yeah So there's a little bit of like Overcompensation you think happening Where he's like, I'm going to be a tough guy By tweeting about

Every time someone shows an atrocity From Gaza I wish we didn't have to do this But whatever There's always there's different types I'm a bit of a nerd I wasn't trying to like You know, like going to kind of like nerd critique

But there's kind of like You know, I like to think there's lots of sweet kind of nerdy types. And then there's a thing you can imagine just pulling wings off flies. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's got the, yeah, it's the, it's the nerd to in-sell pipeline energy

where you're just like, you know, you start off just really liking comic books and then you end up being so mad that women like comic books too that you're like, you just go full fucking in-sell. And he's got the energy to me of someone who knows, You know what he has, as a comic, he has, what I would say is open mic overachiever energy. He's got this, it's this, the person who has decided what standup is is when you go on stage and wear a suit. Like he doesn't have, like charisma, he doesn't have a comedy voice, he doesn't have any good writing.

But what he has is like a suit. And he has one thing that he does, which is really. raise his eyebrows and he's decided that's how he's going to sell these war crimes and i find him like so detestable and yet so um entertaining because i i you know as opposed to seeing him as a total villain um i mean i see him as a villain uh i also behind his eyes i see this like um like i feel like and you correct me if i'm wrong i don't know british people that well, but I feel like he has a deep sadness to him where I feel like he will. I hope so. Yeah, fingers cost. Maybe it's like me being optimistic, but I like I feel like in his tweets he will

live to regret every single moment of this. And there's like I see behind all of them just someone with the saggiest, you know, eyebags just like sitting there with a five o'clock shadow just typing, Israel has a right to defend itself, you know, over and over again. And, um, I, and maybe that's just my hope. Uh, maybe he's... Do you know what? It's funny used to say that because earlier, um, yeah, I was thinking about this in the shower. I don't know why I needed to say that particularly detail, but just, just as a bit context. I like it now. I'm thinking about you in the shower. Well, you know, I thought to spice things up with it. But I didn't have you ever sometimes just start pitching film ideas in your head.

And I did think of this kind of like Israeli propagandist in a film. He just has this massive crisis of conscience and just goes on a big and then realizes what they've done. I think though with him, because he's not abating me occasionally, which I just generally ignored. But then I reply to him saying something like, it might take 20 years. It might take 30 years. It might take 40 years. But you are definitely going to go to jail. And I think, maybe, I just think, for me, because the reason I say that is, to be honest, and I've been thinking about this a lot, because

I mean, it's comforting, isn't it? Because he's just such a... Yeah, it feels nice. He's selling genocide to a Western audience. But I mean, if you read the genocide convention of 1948, you know, because obviously genocide, it makes clear as a punishable crime, but obviously it talks about, you know, other punishable crimes

such as public incitement and complicity. And I just think if you're going to be the PR guy trying to convince a Western audience to support a genocide, then I think that applies. And I just think this crime is too big, too extreme. And Western public opinion actually, despite his, or maybe partly because of his attempts, is shifting dramatically ahead that I just think in the future, is he really going to get away with it? And part of me thinks maybe you won't. Yeah. No, I mean, I honestly, in deep

in my, you know, heart, I still have like a little bit of optimism in me. that there is some justice in the world. And so, you know, as cynical as I've become, because here in America, we just, you know, it's like if your crimes are big enough, you get away with them. And I think that has, you know, made us all cynical. Like watching the fact that, like, Trump,

it feels increasingly likely will be reelected, where we all are just kind of like resigning ourselves to the fact that, like, yeah, some people are just allowed to do crimes and say they're doing crimes and then just be president again like it's just it's just part of it yeah but deep inside there's part of me that believes yeah it is possible because i mean it wouldn't be the first time in the world that uh someone has gone to uh prison uh and convicted of cheering on uh genocide like this has happened before uh i i know it happened recently with uh um I don't know about recently, but with a, I think, a Belgian.

What do you call a Belgian? Is that a Dutch? I'm from America. Well, yeah, no. What's a Belgian guy called? Well, you've got a Belgian's fine. A Belgian, yeah, I'll call them Belgium. I suppose what you were going for is you've got your Wallonia, which is your French part,

and then you've got your Flanders. And they speak Flemish, which is a, which is a kind of Dutch. But I wouldn't, if I said that to them, that they would probably get quite angry about that. A Belgian is fine. A Belgian is fine. I wish the reason that I didn't know is because I was like trying to be specific. No, it's because American school system.

I don't know where things are. I know there's a map and there's lines in them. But yeah, so he was someone who became a huge star in Rwanda and was one of the people who was cheering on the genocide and was actually trying to, you know, basically doing cover for it and trying to incite. And he faced consequences. And I do believe it is possible that, I mean, if anyone is going to face consequences for rhetoric in this, like, Elon's top of the list for sure.

Well, I'll give an example. I'll give an example. As a point you made before is like, why are they saying, you know, when it comes to lies, for example. And there was an example last week, which wasn't Elon, but just as one example, where all of a sudden, the Ministry of Defense in Israel released what they said was footage of the pastime Red Crescent treating a Hamas militant on the 7th of October after they'd, I think they'd killed Israeli soldiers. I think that was the argument. And they said, and they put that out, it turned out it wasn't the Palestine Red Crescent at all. It was the military health service or something, the internal military service of Hamas. It was nothing to do with the red president whatsoever. And whatever we think about Mossad, they're not stupid. They obviously knew that.

And even the times of Israel had to retract. But the Ministry of Defence just kept. They kept it up on Twitter and all the rest of it. And the question is, why did they put that out then? Well, they put that out because they've just destroyed the health system of Gaza. And they had just targeted an ambulance, which was sent to save a six-year-old girl, Hind Rajab, blew up, killed its paramedics, and her family. And so they were suddenly going, ah, their Hamas.

But the point about Elon Levy, so on him, So he released this clip of him chatting to, you know, someone who's a, again, a former Israeli politician. Yeah. And in it, the whole point of that discussion they had was to take on the idea of a clear demarcation between the Palestinian people, Hamas. And they even went to great lengths to say, well, that actually Fata are basically accomplices of Hamas. That Hamas is just rooted in, that's what they argue, it's not a joke, that Hamas is rooted in the national fabric of Palestine. And it's not true when Western audiences say, well, actually, you know, that Hamas

don't represent the Palestinians. They just talk about the Palestinians in that casual way about being Hamas. And the point about that is, is it's really important to make the point because of what you said there earlier, because when they say we don't target innocent civilians, we don't target civilians who aren't and involved.

The question is, I don't think they really think there are any innocent. So they're not lying when they say them. Do you see what I mean? Their view is that, Why are they, as you say, why do they suddenly talk about children having Nazi books or whatever? I mean, you had this segment on Israeli TV where a former senior Mossad official said all Palestinians over the age of four were collectively guilty and were Hamas supporters. So, I mean, the argument they're trying to make is we don't target innocent civilians because, well, actually, we think Hamas and the Palestinian civilian population, you can't really demarcate the two.

So when I watched that clip is why has he decided to put that particular situation? segment up, well, because there's increasing growing horror at the fact that, including those buried under rubble, 36,000 plus Palestinians have been killed, including over 14,000 children, and people are, they're losing the public relations battle. So they're increasingly putting out clips going, do you really want to feel sorry for these people? Because they're all, they're all, they're all Hamas extremists. And I think, yeah, yeah, that's the point of that. I mean, it is, it is crazy. Just the phrase alone, you know, and I'm sure to use, you know, not just by Israel, but just the phrase, innocent civilians is always a, it's a funny little

qualifier, the idea of the innocent part, just because you go like, well, wait a second, isn't a civilian by definition of someone who is not a combatant? Like the idea is like, no, we don't target innocent civilians. But it's their way of saying, you know, innocent. Well, what is innocent? I mean, if you have a book. Yeah, define innocent. Right, define innocent.

If you're someone who's in a house that has a bad book, then are you really innocent? And that is, yeah. Well, that's a thing, yeah, because they're like, everything is Hamas. So, I mean, literally, the UN, the healthcare system, children, all Hamas. Recently, there was an article from the Washington Post. I was interviewing a lot of people who were protesting the aid that was going into Gaza, Israelis and such. and one of the things they pointed out and has been pointed out by Israeli officials

is there are different ways in which foods can be used to make bombs. And I was just like, wait, so not only is aid Hamas, but food is Hamas as well, like literally eating is Hamas. So, yeah, it is, there's a level of tying things to Hamas

that, I mean, from the beginning of this, you know, recent incursion, has been everyone's I think rightfully called out like just oh yeah yeah yeah everything is Hamas but instead of like realizing that that you know line wasn't going to work they just doubled down to the point at which they're going everything that is not a Zionist is Hamas which that's the thing isn't it because it is on one hand just so laughably ridiculous but it is that shows the genocidal element of it because their stated aim is we need to just just wipe Hamas out completely. But when it's clear there is no demarcation between what they

consider Hamas and anything, what, you know, I mean, that's why, you know, it's funny actually I got Gary Lineca who's like a national sweetheart in Britain. He's the most famous sports personality. He's a sports presenter. I'd call him basically a well-meaning middle of the road liberal who probably just, you know, doesn't like innocent people being killed, which is an extreme position to have. Yeah, right. I was like, you mean a Nazi Owen? That's what Nazis. Nazis are now. That's what Nazi. Nazis, look.

Nazis are people who are opposing as the civilians being murdered on mass. So anyway, he took the Nazi position of opposing mass murder. And basically what I did is I interviewed this Israeli-American associate professor of Holocaust and Genocide. He's brilliant, a brilliant guy. And he called this a textbook genocide because he said, rarely has intent been so overtly spoken. And he was just the fact people just keep saying genocidal things. or things, you know, citing Amalek and in which, you know, God orders the killing of all men, women, children and livestock or human animals. And then to justify cutting off all means of

sustenance with civilian population. I mean, it's just endless, endless. But I put out a clip of it, and Gary Linnaker shared, worth 14 minutes of anyone's time. This literally caused a firestorm in which Gary Linnaker, but I think this was quite useful, because he was then accused, basically, of being, you know, people started, because he works at the BBC, so the reports were, well, Jewish employees obviously don't feel safe working with Garolinica. But it was so, it was helpful because people had to, they had to put what actually happened in, because people then had to read, oh my God, what's this anti-Semitism that

he's done? And then they had to read, he shared a clip by an Israeli-American associate professor of genocide and Holocaust studies. Yeah. And I just think maybe that didn't really land in the way they, maybe they listened to that and thought, I think that guy probably knows what he's talking about, actually. Yeah. not classic anti-semitism, is it, if you're an Israeli-American professor of...

Right, yeah, there's too many, like, I think, just logical hoops to go through in order to be able to take, like, a regular person and have them learn what he did and go, like, and end with, yeah, he is a Nazi. It's like, you know, you've got, it's an Israeli professor of Holocaust studies. And all he did was share a clip. But people, you know, I've been getting doxed and fired and, you know, otherwise punished just for sharing clips. And it is, you know, so it's, it's nothing new. But I think what's new is the amount of people who are not, the amount of people who just don't agree with the punishments that people are receiving for this stuff.

like people are starting to kind of speak out against the idea of blacklisting and censoring people and i think i think i yeah well it's just the scale of the crop the scale of the crime just i think it's i just think it's too big isn't it i think that's the issue i think you know i just think i think that worked for a long time which is why actually to be honest i still i'm increasingly just so angry with people who are silent because you know you you're right you know yes of course there is always the risk when you speak out in support of terribly extreme ideas like don't slaughter innocent people and the land the land should be shared in the basis of equality and justice between Israelis and

palisines very very very very very scary you're going to get me demonetize here dog next you're going to say that there should be a single secular state that everyone gets a vote if you say that shit I have I can have to leave this country. It's true what I mean. I mean, so you get like, people listen to that and go like, yeah, obviously, fine. You're going to, you know, and it's stupid. There's something responsible because actual anti-Semitism is growing, but obviously, I wish we

need to take seriously. But so you will get accused of terrible things. But I kind of think if you've got a public platform and you're not using it to speak out against your own government facilitating one of the worst crimes of our age, I just, I'm kind of pissed off with you actually. to be honest i'm questioning your moral integrity as a human being at this point i agree completely and i actually it's um one of the reasons that i so much appreciate your uh work um because uh if if i'm right you're not jewish is that correct no no i mean and i've jewish cousins but

never speak about that just right right it comes across is right no yeah yeah i've got jewish guys it's like yeah my best friends are jews or whatever yeah do you know i mean yeah No, totally. But I mean, so personally, I find it always like refreshing when someone who is not Jewish, I mean, particularly someone who is Arab and has a platform or is, you know, Palestinian and has a platform because they are often the first targets just automatically to be smeared as anti-Semitic. But also, I mean, just, you know, with you, being someone who's not Jewish and being passionate about, this issue and like getting into it and really talking about it, you know, and like not pulling any punches, you know, one of the things that I've seen in the way has Boris attack you is they will call you an anti-Semite, which is something that, you know, as a Jewish person who talks about this, I mostly get self-hating Jew. Occasionally I get like, oh, you're not Jewish enough

to talk about this or whatever. But, you know, the smears of anti-Semitism that you've had to endure have been, you know, I'd probably increased. Yeah, but I mean, you know, I'd never present myself as some sort of victim in that sense. I mean, partly, you know, in my own head, because I just know it's ludicrous, I think, I mean, I think anti-Semitism is an incredible evil, you know, it's responsible for within living memory the attempt to the extermination of the Jewish people of Europe for two-thirds of whom were exterminated.

I also think it's so important, it's important to take on its own terms, because it's such a tremendous evil, but also until the Jewish diaspora feels safe, you know, that's a critical part of how we end this whole nightmare, because obviously the facts, the collective trauma felt so much by so much of the Jewish diaspora is so real, and also very obvious, which is throughout history, there's a sense of, you know, like if I think of, you know, in France of the late 19th century where Jewish French people felt safe and accepted.

Liberty, equality of fraternity, that was the thing. And then you got the Dreyfus affair where you've got this massive surge of anti-semitism or in interwar Germany. That was the most integrated Jewish population of Europe and then what happened. And so I get, you know, that sense that I think non-Jews like myself always have to engage with

is there's a sense of throughout history there's a sense of we're accepted or we feel safe and then suddenly the wind changed very quickly and now we need somewhere safe to go and that's something which you know has to be engaged with and a kind of you know until jewish people feel safe everywhere then obviously the the claims of the israeli state will have an appeal to so many that's just inevitable and i just think so when i listen to that

about antisemitism because it's always something i've tried to take very seriously i certainly i've been very educated by and the millier i'm in you know and i you know i stood at the tracks railway tracks in berlin which took 40 members of my best friend's family to be exterminated they a shot in the forest of Latvia before the gassing's began. You know, and I just think that, you're, you know, and I just think at the moment thinking of that, because his family from Germany, or what was then Germany, but I think is now Poland, right. It's just seeing how Germany has gone, do you know what, we're responsible for this hideous

historic crime, which is within living memory. We're going to make now the Palestinian people pay for it. And also, we're going to arrest and silence Jewish protesters, which they keep doing. I just think it's unbelievable. Yeah. No, it's completely insane. It's completely insane. And, you know, I think what's interesting and what I think you do so well is you do a great job of contextualizing and also separating the idea of anti-Semitism and the idea of anti-Zionism or at the very least criticism of Israel.

Um, just, you know, I, I'm personally wondering, like, what, what, what, what got you, um, interested in this issue and is some, is it something that, uh, you at one point, um, avoided? Or is it something that you've always, uh, been passionate about? To me was, like a big influence was, I know, I'm going to sound like a, even more of a cliche. So noam Tomsky was a very big impact. It's okay. I'm not, I'm not a leftist hipster. I'm not just like, no, I'm trying. Come on. man everybody says noam yeah but he did there's no getting around it so you know i was i'm from a leftist family and but so what i did for a while i'm a phd dropper but what i was interested in is i was studying american history and i was interested in what i regarded is the crimes of western imperialism so you know a big impact on me i spoke up britain's tremendous export so for example there's a brilliant book called late victorian holocaust which is about how tens of millions of Indians starved under British rule because of famines which were completely avoidable.

Ireland, half the population of Ireland were starved or forced to flee because of the British rule in the 19th century. There's other examples of the brilliant book as well called Britain's Gulag which was about Kenya in the 1950s when the British locks pit, you know, the Kikyu tribe up in concentration caps, kill, tortured tens of thousands. It's something which most Britons have nothing, no awareness of. But in terms of American history, you know, the British. Vietnam and all of that had a big impact to me.

So what I was always interesting actually was Western, you know, its complicity in crimes which its populations at home don't know about. So it's something I've been actually very vocal about in terms of in the here and now, which is quite interesting because it's often used as a preemptive gotcha against me. I have people who haven't just used Google, which is the Saudi onslaught against Yemen. So I've been to a Yemeni refugee camp. I did a documentary there. I've written about the Saudi onslaught against Yemen, which is,

armed and backed by Britain and the United States, in which you have British intelligence, you know, units embedded in the Saudi military. And for me, the whole point of that is that we are directly complicit in that horror. And the reason that got you is so stupid, by the way, or tells how damning this all is, is what's happened to Yemen is horrific and it needs more attention. And although the people who suddenly realize Yemen exists,

the people who only want to use Yemeni deaths to the people. downgrade Palestinians. But the scale, it shows the scale of the crime because Yemen's population is much, much bigger than Gaza's population. And a higher percentage now

of Gaza has been killed in a few months than have been killed by violent means, but also by other indirect means in war in Yemen over 10 years. So it just, actually, that gotcha, does it work.

But the point of making is, that's what I mean, you know, for me it's a case of this isn't about specifically, obviously I care passionate about what's happening to the Palestinian people based on the generations of suffering. But for me, it's more about the West.

This happens in our name. We have leverage over what our governments do. So when they start coming up with other random conflicts, it's like, well, that's terrible. But Britain isn't, Britain isn't arming and supporting that. The US isn't arming and supporting that. Everything Israel is doing is on us. And I interviewed Diana Butteau,

a brilliant Palestinian-Canadian lawyer. And she said, this is an Israeli-American attack as she sees it. And that's the point. We are collectively, And because our government's arm and back it. They're doing it in our name. And we've got leverage over what they do. So we should speak out because we can stop what's happening from happening. That's the basis of what I believe is. completely agree with you and i i think that's a great point that uh people more and more people are starting to you know take away and it's why you're seeing an increase of people um who uh aren't

jewish you know um who don't have the you know the i don't know that even people don't have like the educational background in this still speaking out uh because they're seeing what's wrong uh They're seeing crimes take place and they're going, like, I may not be Jewish, but this is my government that is also making me by the very essence of being a taxpayer complicit in these horrible war crimes. And I'm not going to allow that because this is supposedly a representative democracy and we're supposed to have a voice. And yeah, I do see something, you know, it's like, I feel like Israeli, like the right wing in Israel, to me, I see it as a mixture of both American and British right wing ghoulishness. Like you've got the British, like, colonial, like, attitudes of the officials. you know, who are in charge, you know, the Israeli government. And then you have the American, like, I'm going to take a wedding photo with a fucking M-16,

me and my wife and my baby, we're all going to hold American-made guns as wedding photos or, you know, fucking Hanukkah, you know, greeting cards. Like, it's a, it's a perfect mixture of, like, MAGA guys and Brexit guys, or, you know, whatever. totally do you know what that is such a key point because in terms of the accusation of anti-semitism which is said because anti-semitism is such a jet such a real and terrible danger which has to be for and then the way it's used to shut down people in fight were terrible war crimes and injustices perpetrate by the same is it's complete they've got it completely the wrong way around because the whole point of anti-semitism embedded in european culture is this

idea that they are the other they're not europeus they're the other but the the problem the way those of us who are critiquing and opposing this horror, that we're not looking at Israel as the other. We're looking at them as us. We're looking at this basically as a Western state, a Western state which is responsible for unbelievable, unspeakable horror. So they've got it. It's the complete opposite of the critique.

It's not the othering of Israel that leads to the movement developed, which is across the Western world. It's not the othering of Israel. it's the this is us as in a western state waging war against an indigenous people who are suffering a genocide so it's the complete opposite so you're right i do look at them a lot of it is it is echoing a lot of like basically is an echo a lot of it so much of british kind of you know colonial settler colonial projects right history there's a big echo with that but you're right it's got as well now this kind of maniacal kind of american fuck you we don't give a fuck about the

you know like right there's this thing right right team here called um uh we that like their their motto is um no one likes us and we don't care and it's a bit kind of yeah like fuck you all yeah yeah no 100 percent and you see it you know a lot in israeli society um uh you know the idea of like well you know if the world doesn't agree with us then fuck the world and this is a very american outlook um you know kind of disguised as like uh you know i see this a lot of like um kind of a revisionism when it comes to a lot of these attitudes towards the international community, like the idea, you know, Israelis will be like, you know, this is what we've always said.

You know, it's it's us versus the world and stuff. And I'm like, no, you, you're taking this from right-wing Christian nationalists. This is that talking point. So you're not, you know, this is not part of the, you know, like, the writings of, fucking Theodore Herzl anymore. Like, he at least admitted he was a settler colonialist, you know? Like, you are just doing right-wing Christian nationalism and then, you know, saying things like, well, fuck the world, you know, we're number one.

And the danger there is that unlike America, which is, you know, the fucking biggest army in the world, the most well-armed, the biggest economy. Israel like is a country in the Middle East that is very, very powerful, but as someone who is, you know, a Jewish person and is like, I also do not want Israelis to fucking die in mass atrocities. And everything the Israeli government does seems to bring them further, like closer and closer and closer to something of that nature happening, which is like one of the most insane things. about it is like this careless attitude of like whatever what are you going to do to us um like to me it just it it doesn't make them safer i mean if i'm in israeli i'm like i would be like what the fuck are we doing guys like why are we like the entire society can't be as confident as the most insane person in some settlement in the west bank like i just don't i just don't believe that so

so I look at this and I go like this is yeah it's too cocky that's what I'm saying yeah I mean I mean on that as well this is definitely not my lane but I mean I guess it's that question isn't it which is has Israel made Jewish people safer either in Israel or abroad I guess is no is the answer to that question yeah that yeah I mean it's difficult to I will say unequivocally no and and I think like you know you were talking about earlier, like, kind of reconciling the idea of American, sorry, excuse me, Jewish past trauma and like kind of trying to be sensitive to that because of the fact that, you know, we have these very real historical traumas and present, you know, traumas and aggressions and stuff. There

are people who hate Jews, anti-Semitism is a very real thing. And, you know, the problem is is that the solution of Israel is not a solution. And that is something that I think more and more Jews are waking up to. It's like, wait, wait. So yes, any country at some point can turn on a population. Historically, Jews have been a population that countries turn on, and that's part of this fear. The solution that I've seen put forth by Zionists seems to be like, you know, well luckily Israel exists and it's like what does that even mean to do what what exactly is going to stop a you know a gang of anti-Semites in Fresno from like murdering a Jew like how's Israel going to be involved in this in any way it seems to like be based on this idea that either you were going to you know run to Israel or flee to Israel before it happens it's just like it makes no logic sense and also the idea that a state in and of itself containing every Jew in the world is the safest thing to do. I'm like, that seems like when all the eggs are in one basket,

that's a phrase we say. Like, this doesn't seem to be a safe thing. Yeah, you know what? I'm on that, I mean, it's a great phrase, but on that, for example, I mean, this is something I had, to my shame, I knew nothing about this historical example. So I knew about Argentine. terrible dictatorship. I knew they were horrible right re dictatorship, which through leftists out of helicopters and terrible and pleasant things like that. What I wasn't aware is that Argentine's junta disproportionately killed Jewish people. So they, this was in the 70s and 80s, and they killed Jewish people at 12 times the rate of the number of Jews who lived in Argentina. So it's like 12% of those killed were Jews compared to 1%. And a lot of the Argentine

junta like they you know they basically did nazi shit you know like not they had nazi stuff they praised hitler they just did just did just did full-blown nazi stuff and i didn't i didn't firstly i didn't know that and actually i didn't know there was a significant argentine community in israel who did leave the flee argentine because of that what i didn't realize is israel armed that junta and i guess the reason i bring that up because it killed so much maybe three thousand And Argentine Jews were killed that. I just think that itself just is, if Israel was functioning at that point as, look, whatever happens, we're here is a refuge for Jewish people to defend Jewish people, no matter.

But they prioritized because their view there was actually they were part of a coalition, a global so-called anti-communist alliance involving the United States, you know, in Britain, which is why they're allied with, for example, apartheid South Africa, because they saw it was a bulwark. And so their priority, the priority of the Israeli state there wasn't. How, above all else, of course you can't arm this junta. What the fuck? This junta is killing Jews disproportionately. That clearly is an enemy of the Jewish people.

We need to fight it. They were, well, actually, we're part of an anti-communist bloc. And therefore, we need to arm this junta. I mean, that itself, I just find. And I didn't know about that history. Yeah, it is, it's an insane thing. And it's like one of many examples, you know, of course, at different levels of intensity, but of Israel prioritizing the continuation of their state

and their project over the safety of Jews living in diaspora countries, living in the diaspora, living not in Israel. And it is become increasingly obvious that the choice there is incredibly calculated because it fucking accomplishes two things. Number one, it helps them, you know, with their allies or whatever. It helps them grow stronger as a state.

It also helps their case, which is their case is like, oh man, other countries sure do hate you. You know, move to Israel where we will protect you. And that kind of shit is like, you know, this idea goes like directly

in the face of the idea that Israel makes Jews safer. And, you know, more on this subject, there was a tweet recently that I'm going to put up by someone named Joss Sheldon. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and he wrote this. Let me pull this up.

There we go. So Joss wrote, if I was a white person in South Africa, I'd have opposed apartheid. If I was a German in the 30s, I'd have opposed the Nazis. If I was alive at the time, I'd have opposed the British Empire. But I'm a Jew. So I oppose Zionism. We must all challenge power and say not in our name.

To which Alon Levy back again. Oh, there he is. Oh, is he fucking good. See? Always a pleasure never at a chore. Oh, he's back, baby. Oh, our beautiful boy is back. Our beautiful boy says, if you were a German, the 1930s,

the Nazis would have murdered you, but a strong, independent, sovereign Jewish state would have saved you. So this is an insane thing to say. The idea that Israel, the existence of Israel, had it existed in the 30s, as a strong independent sovereign Jewish state would have saved you is just it's completely

a historical in terms of like first of all you're inventing uh the existence of Israel uh there's that there is that and um you are also like like what logistically I mean at this point I'm not even talking about like the rhetoric or the uh just kind of like the the idea of safety wrapped in a state but logistically what would have happened would they have been airlifted like this this complete fantasy idea that Elon keeps like putting out there and that all has Boris do is that like man you know if Israel was around holocaust would have would have never happened and it's just like it just doesn't it doesn't vibe with the realities of what happened during World War II and during the Holocaust.

And it also seems to be expressly like tied to this idea of, you know, every single country at some point will eventually be this Nazi state. And you should just accept it and move here now. And I find it to be like abhorrent because it's just, Again, it's like this constant revisionism of Nazi atrocities. And, yeah, you know, I just like, A-Lon's always around saying some of like the worst shit ever. And the fact that he attacks you regularly just makes me, it just, it makes me respect you all the more, Owen, you know?

Yeah, but again, it's just more of this, like, how much of this is Britain just like, come on, Britain. just stop. Like, we've got, like, in the moment, like, transphobia, we keep, like, just stop exporting these things, just come and do something. We should have just stuck to, like, cream tea or, you know, like, I know, or, I don't know, like, being, being overly apologetic, like, saying sorry when someone, when someone walks into you, that's fine, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, just not,

not being, not being able to say what we actually think and, and to that being occasionally charming but also quite irritating that's fine but but less of the just really egregious terrible nightmarry shit and i'm afraid to say it looks like a kind of hook to it so yeah it looks like we're just going to kick it looks like it's it looks like that tradition is just here to stay um yeah i mean you guys are just he won't be the last yeah i mean you know listen there are some good british people and you're one of them so you need to feel good but yeah i'll take you know i just uh in general you know when it comes to like just this idea of like oh you know if israel doesn't exist then no jews are safe i mean this is something

i've talked about constantly on the show and i find it to be just the most absolutely offensive and um anti-semitic and completely defeatist for any jew in the diaspora to believe this um the idea that like no matter what you do um your government um you know will eventually turn on you i mean it's just like because you're coming from a point immediately of like well then fuck it then then then why yeah because i think again if i was in my just in my little lane's a little yeah as a queer guy i'd be like well imagine that the idea you just look for my my view was like well obviously you've got to keep fighting until every society is free of, right, of anti-LGB bigotry, so that people,

right, I wouldn't be like, well, that's never going to happen. So we need to, everyone has to decamp over here because we never, ever, I mean, that to me is like the most miserable defeatist possible approach. Completely. I mean, it is. And it just, that's, by definition, it's defeatism because it is, it's trying to paint the eventual rise of another Jewish holocaust, another genocide against the Jews as inevitable rather than something preventable. And it's saying, you know, oh, well,

the only way to actually prevent it is if there are no Jews left in other countries and we all move to Israel. And it's just so clearly, you know, part of trying to bolster the Zionist project of greater Israel. And it's, uh, and it's also just so historic because you go like, well, I mean, what happened with the junta in Argentina? You know, what, what, uh, what about, um, you know, all the anti-Semitism that's growing in Hungary and the fact that your government is, uh, cozy with Victor Orban. Like, what about the, well, exactly. Yeah, the anti-Semites for Israel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Clearly anti-Semitic, the most anti-Semitic regime in Europe. Yes. But on that as well,

that the, the, the, just on that as well. Well, I went through, this was, I can't remember, there was about 20 Israeli soldiers who were killed together. This was a big incident a few weeks ago. And it turned out one of them, it was much commented on. It turned out he was from indigenous Peruvian background, I think. Oh, right. And then at a US Congress, a Republican congressman said,

look, this fallen Aztec, whatever. And I, it was quite interesting because some Peruvians then wrote, there's no such thing as an Aztec, what are you talking about? There's like indigenous Peruvians. But I looked at, I went through this kind of like rabbit hole. Someone did. It was quite interesting. There were some scholars who went through a kind of rabbit hole about this in the history of what had actually happened because it's quite curious.

And it was odd. I'll level it. This is what happened. So basically there was this group of indigenous Peruvians. And some rabbis from Israel went over to Peru and converted them all en masse to Judaism on the promise that they would have to, immediately leave and go to Israel and settle. And the reason that was given for why they had to do that is that middle-class Jewish society in Peru looked down at them and was treated them with contempt and snobbery. And therefore, they then settled in the West Bank. And they settled

in, they were taken straight from the airport to West Bank settlements. And they were then settled on land on the basis that they were indigenous to, the land of what is now Israel taking land from Palestinians and the basis for it was that they they were treated with with social disdain from from Peruvian Jews who actually had some very long-standing Jewish heritage I don't know it was difficult to get my head it was difficult to get my head around that particular claim because that wasn't about it wasn't a claim about Jewish safety and by the way this is all in the there's a guardian article about it which is spelled out in those terms it was I don't know it was confusing

saying and that I mean that as an example that it just that is such a crazy idea I love I love the idea of you know the the best way to get to convince people about Jews being indigenous is to just convert indigenous peoples of other countries and move them and go like well I'm a Jew and I'm indigenous not to hear necessarily but who's being specific that is that's pretty brilliant. But yeah, I mean, you know, it's insane to think about the amount of the rising tide of anti-Semitism across the world and look at Israel. It's insane that Israel would be like, man, you know, if there's anyone who can protect you, it's us. And as someone who always is about the, yeah, the irresponsibility of throwing, because it's so obviously

on the rise. I mean, you can see that in terms of, you know, in terms of, you know, the sort of like, you know, attacks, hate crimes, but also the rise of far right movements, which clearly have deep, profound, anti-Semitic, heritages and streaks. And I do think that's why a lot of people, you know, there is a responsibility I always think on the side of those who aren't Jewish, who support the palaticals in the global north to take on anti-Semitism and to confront it And not, not, because the danger is when it's used by apologists for the Israeli state, you know, in a way that it is abused, then people, well, there's no such thing as anti-Semitism at all. But there's, there is. I mean, it's just, it's, it's a great evil. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it just waters it down. And that's like, you know, that is, I think one of the things that I fear about it is the fact that it's, it's both rising. And it is both, and it is stoked by Israel. very deliberately, and simultaneously, it is a smear that is being weaponized by Israel to a degree in which people are saying things like, well, there is no such thing as anti-Semitism.

And it's just like, this is, this is bad, this is bad for me. And I'm not trying to like, you know, obviously make this, you know, a fucking atrocity that is the continuing Zionist project about me. But I am saying that, like, it does concern, it does concern me the fact that, like, Israel would absolutely let Jews be unsafe throughout the world in order to bolster their cause, which is not, it's not good. I've been to Hungary. I've interviewed the, you know, the dissidents, the opponents. You've got this authoritarian regime, which obsesses over George Soros being a Jewish puppet master, running the strings behind the opposition. And the polling in Hungary when it comes to anti-semptive, is one of the worst in the whole of Europe. So it's not like they don't know what they're doing. Do you know what I mean?

And the history of what happened in the Holocaust, the Hungarian Jews was, you know, what the worst basically, almost any. And you just kind of think, what the fuck? Yeah. You know, and it's that, you know, I guess there's that long history, Richard Nixon, who was very anti-Semitic, yeah, very pro-Israeli in public, Donald Trump, constant anti-Semitic tropes. Yeah, I mean, fucking Elon Musk, you see, you know, he's opened the,

floodgates for any Nazi on Twitter to exist and save the worst possible shit. But then, you know, he will make sure that his algorithm is just, you know, has barists being like pushed. Like my timeline is just like lie, lie, lie, lie. And it is, you know, so clearly Israel is helpful at running cover for anti-Semites because at the end of the day, they know that their project is an inherently right-wing western chauvinist colonial project and the people who like that type of shit are right-wingers who usually kind of hate Jews. So it's like, you know, they're like, well, whatever. I mean, as long someone's got to support this shit.

But yeah, before we leave, I want to ask you something as a, as, you know, you're a British person. and all right we've got to stop over i'm sorry there's nothing good deal about it we're still with that but like uh why do you call it why you call it football it's soccer and i'm just kidding that's no i want to ask what's going on with peers morgan in america we don't know him like we know of he tried to we don't know her sorry yeah yeah exactly we we tried to uh we watched him take over for Larry King at one point and then kind of like it got canceled and all that stuff. He we know him as kind of just like this like kind of bloated like right wingish like pompous guy who's just like, you know, oh, oh, I hate my, I hate Megan Markle and it's not because

she's black. Yeah. I don't know. I can't do the accent, but it's probably something like that. That was amazing. That was whatever that was still beautiful. It's my Pierce Morgan, yeah. David Beck. Fishing Cheap's Um No but like what is What's his deal I'm gonna

Whatever happens I'm gonna play That's gonna be my ringtone After this That's gonna be It's gonna be Oh BS Bullgin Diving Beck and fish and chip

Oh shit my mom's calling Um But like It's been interesting Seeing him In you know I don't know The last three months or so

Um Because he seems to be and I shouldn't gauge any, you know, British politics on him, I assume, but I can't help but, like, think he represents some population in the U.K. He seems to simultaneously be someone who runs cover, just like any other, you know, Western journalists for Israel. But at the same time, he does something that I feel like you don't see everywhere else, which is, like, he's platforming people on his show that,

that, and kind of, for the most part, letting them finish a sentence. Except for, I think, except for you. I think he interrupted you a bunch of times. Yeah. But, but, but he said to me at one point, you said to me at one point, you can't say that. I was like, is this uncensored. Yeah, that was my favorite. That was my favorite.

You're like, I thought this was uncensored. He's like, it is. Yeah. That was great. I think it's funny with him because I have, we've had, I think lots of conversations in the past. He was on Good Morning Britain, a morning TV show. Right.

When he went to talk TV, they invited me on his show a lot. And the reason I always said no was because I'm aware, I'm self-aware enough to know I'm like a cultural war prop for a lot of his audience. Do you know what I mean? Sure, I'm kind of there. I'd be there just to be like, here's a culture war, we're going to put. You know, so I was like, I don't want to, I'm not going to play a part in this clear performance. So I just always said no.

and then when Gaza happened they kept getting obviously the horrors of 7th of October and everything happened since they kept asking me to come on and I always said no then because I was like

well the last fucking thing I want is Garza would be a cultural like that would be like the worst possible combination but the reason I went on was because he became like what I would describe as an accidental ally in that

the guy I would say it's fair to say would he disagree with this I think he likes clicks he likes an audience and he kept putting on pro-Palestinian and Palestinian voices who just did really well they obviously did really really well

so he became an accidental ally just because actually that channel became one of the best places for pro-Palestinian coverage and then to be honest I spoke to Palestinians I know including a Palestinian who lost huge a bit lost sorry loss is the wrong way of

describing it his relatives were killed en masse by the Israeli state and they said to me that I should go I should go on because the other thing is I was like well, you know, I do panel shows where Palestine comes up, but I wouldn't normally go on a TV show if they're like, Owen, we want to talk

about Palestine, will you come on to talk about this specifically? I normally would avoid that because I would try and promote Palestinian voices. On a panel show, it comes up, we talk about it, or news review, that kind of thing. So the reason I went on is because it was like, he'd had Palestinian voices on and pro-Palestinian voices. They actually did really well,

and I spoke to Palestinians, you thought I should do it. But I don't know, I mean, it was just, I think it was more that I don't know, I'm taught about what do I think is going on in his head and I don't spend that much time thinking about it. I think deep down he knows actually this is fucked. This is so fucked up. It's so obviously twisted. That I get. I get the sense that he like deep down knows it's wrong and fucked up, which is, I think it's shocking to see from, you know, such like, I don't know such a bloated British man

you know what I mean like he just the guy it's like does not exude someone who gives like deep thought into the lives of brothers I'm not letting him off there I'm not no no no of course not because because he's not he's not making he's not he's clearly not coming out

and you know like and I think you know he's got his right wing audience predominantly as well I mean the thing is as well with me you know his argument was that Russia's on sort against Ukraine constitute genocide but israel's didn't and he basically made that on the basis of well basically um in this case Hamas started it and in that case russia started it and now obviously that's a historical the world clearly clock didn't start with 7th october but also on its own terms it's

nonsense because you don't the basis of whether or not something's a genocide or not is is the con is it a genus it's not who started it otherwise in rwanda i mean in rwanda you had the rwandan uh the the the army led by paul pagami who invaded and 1990 committed multiple atrocities. No one would there go, well, that means 1994 genocide wasn't a genocide. Equally, the Bosnian Serbs suffered terrible atrocities committed against them. But that doesn't mean. So that is just a logical nonsense. You know, it's either a genocide or it isn't a genocide. It's not how did this start, even if you're going to start the clock arbitrarily in the way you do. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's again, it's this like idea of normal.

the phrase, you know, preemptive genocide, you know, like the idea of like normalizing the feeling, rather, you know, I don't think anyone is actually saying preemptive genocide, but that's essentially what they're implying through these like acts of quote unquote defense. You know, it's like, well, you know, they say they're genocidal and so what can we do but kill literally every man, woman, and child. But yeah, I can't tell. whether or not, you know, he, you know, Pierce Morgan represents a swat of people in the UK or not who maybe are like, you know, pretty like right-way. I'll tell you why. Yeah. No, actually, because, in fact, let me just bring up the latest polling. Because the latest polling is actually, it's, it's, you know, I know in the US has been big shift compared to where things were.

If I just bring up the latest polling, it is what I find so just, well, all of this is fucked up, but it's, it's the fact that what is seen as extreme within the media environment is seen as completely mainstream amongst British public opinion. So now the, so 69%, sorry, 66% of Britain's think Israel should immediately end military action and call a ceasefire, 13% oppose it. There's only 13% of the population opposed to ceasefire in Britain. Do you think Israel, this is incredible, do you think Israel should or should not be prepared to enter into peace negotiations with Hamas? 66% say yes, 11% say no. If you said that on British TV, you'd probably, I don't know, be arrested or something. Then it says, do you think Israel's attack on Gaza from October onwards is not justified?

Israel is not justified. So this is from October 7th onwards, that whole attack. 45% say it isn't justified. 24% say it is justified. say it is justified. So the point of making is actually, and then now, which side do you sympathise with most? Palestinian side, 28% up seven.

Israeli side, 16% down two. Both sides equally 22%. So the point of making is actually, you know, the problem is actually the media environment in Britain is absurd in that it's all framed. Like I saw that Labor got, Labor has been forced to shift their position

in a way which is actually very disingenuous and cynical, but they've been forced more towards, at least pretending they support ceasefire and they were I watched Skynees interrogating their shallow foreign secretary and it was all like oh what about the hostages

how is Israel going to save its hostages how death and I was like look we should like firstly why aren't you talking about the fact the the vast majority hostages have only ever been released because of a ceasefire prison exchange Israel is this the IDF have killed more hostages than they've rescued but Palestine in life

wasn't even mentioned it wasn't like they were going why have you taken so long And how, why after so many deaths, after the total destruction of guards, after, do you see what I mean, that wasn't even the framing? So what's so ludicrous is you've got a media world and you've got public opinion. And actually, I'm treated as I'm a deranged fringe extremist. And, but, but, you know, in some ways, that's true. No, but I'm a direct, you know, but in terms of public opinion on this, that's not,

I'm just what the mainstream position is. They're the ones on the extreme. Like, why are we treated as extremist? How is this possible? It's like they're like How are they trying to keep a moral high ground? They're literally They're literally cheering on

So what is now on trial On the highest quarter of earth For genocide Alleged genocide Yes Literally 14,000 children And they're still like these pre-nigs Self-righteous

Aren't we moderate and mainstream These people are the hateful deranged extremists It is like the world turned upside down It is just so ridiculous Do you know what I mean Do you take a step back You're like what? the fuck yeah yeah it's it's one of the reasons that i think uh you know people um are

seeking out anything outside of mainstream media because you are seeing so many people it's like the number one comment that i get from people who watch this show which is a dumb show about uh funny israeli propaganda but the number one comment i get is uh thank you you for making me feel sane. And, uh, and I feel like you probably relate to that in, uh, as well, the idea of people who are just grateful to watch, uh, someone look at obvious, like the most obvious manufacturing of consent, the most obvious lies, uh, and just be like, those are lies. Uh, like it is. Exactly. That's exactly that. These for me, people like you keep me, I would have gone insane otherwise because it's,

literally like you have this debate which is Israel is defending itself and there was a side debate about whether is this proportional or a lot let's agree to disagree when the Israeli state is just screaming we're committing war cries everyone like woo like it's like you get like in the moment like someone posted like

why are these IDF soldiers like oh my God is a breakdown of discipline like why are they posting this shit it's like maybe because the Israeli defence minister on October the 10th and then October the 12th said I'm lifting all restraints and restrictions on the Israeli army To directly to stop, maybe that's a clue.

I don't know. Worth looking at. Worth looking at. Yeah. It is. And it's so crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

It is like, and the fact that the media narrative around this seems to be, especially recently now that I've seen a bunch of commentary about this, including from inside of Israel, like, hey, guys, what are we doing? Letting our, letting Israeli soldiers make these videos. Like, it's making this look. like some sort of genocide and I'm just like what do you mean it making it look it how many how much evidence do you need before you're just like maybe I'm running cover for a genocide current I know it's like it's a bad it's really bad PR guys could you take it off camera come on I know it's

yeah yeah that's the other thing that's the other thing it's like I mean this what this whole thing you'd hope history will because it's just so extreme and deranged it's literally like they've wiped they've rained hellfire and wiped out 70% of homes, displaced almost the entire population, killed and counting through violent deaths, 35,000 people

between 14,000 kids. Clearly in these horrors, famine, collapse of health care system, that's what ends up killing most people. It's a horrible thing to talk about, this is true. And you have Israeli soldiers just laughing hysterically

and going on about how amazing and funny it is, and the Israeli leadership who keeps saying things like, we need to wipe Gaza out, these are human animals. Let's quote a genocidal passage from the Bible, by the way, and no reason to bring that up. And whilst Israeli media outlets and TV go on about how all civilians,

there's no such thing as innocent civilians, with the caveat maybe people under the age of four might not be guilty. You just kind of look at it and go, like, what, there's not subtlety, is there? It's not subtle. And yet we have to pretend that this is, people in the you know the media hasn't framed it based on what is actually said and done yeah it's no it's it's it's the level of being lied to it's like it's not just you know a it's not just spin but it's

the complete inversion of reality to a degree in which you are just uh you know you're you're watching someone do a crime and say you know it's literally it's the eric and to see it where he's like shooting uh what is he shoots uh um hannibal burris and it's just and you know it says israeli goes why would hamas do this like we are watching that they're they're they're acting out the memes and uh they live yeah it is why people are like you know they're like looking for a normal like a normal people to just say what's happening because they they can't believe their eyes, you know, they, why not just take, yeah, why not just take literally what they say is what I think that's the key point. One of my main takeaways would be like if the Russians,

I mean, well, shit people go, well, they mean that, don't they? Why have they, like, fine, that's an entirely reasonable way to behave. Like if, if a state keeps saying things over and over again, which are clearly genocidal in nature, just objectively speaking, and that's the other thing about it, when they say, don't be fucking ridiculous, as how day it takes genocide. The people saying that, if this was a state which was hostile to Western interests, whose leaders were saying these things and doing this, there would not be a debate. There wouldn't be a discussion at all. It would be classified as a genocide, like, obviously, because however, we would have made up reasons. Yeah, we would have made up reasons, actually. Like, you don't need them to say explicitly,

if they're an enemy of Western interests, they don't need to say explicitly they're going to murder people. You know, they would just, we would invent reasons to do it. But because they're an ally, they could literally say, let's get a genocide in guys. And, uh, no one says anything. Yeah, it is, it is wild. Um, it sucks. Yeah, it sucks. But you know what, doesn't suck, uh, you, Owen Jones, you, the work you do, hey, I love the work you do. You do, nah, I see all the hits. And if, uh, you know, the video, there's a few misses. There's a few misses sneaking around. Listen, everyone's got a miss.

I'm a trier. Yeah, you know what? You're a try hard. No, I'm a try hard. No, I'm a tryhard too. But I really appreciate what you do. Plug yourself. Where can people find your work?

If they want to hear my inane quasi, my Northern English accent, and my sort of McCormy called Contribute Act, face. It's a beautiful face. Where is it, though? YouTube, you should look up Owen Jones on YouTube.

I do write for the Guardian, or they could just listen to my increasingly deranged tweets. Yeah. You've got great tweets. Your YouTube channel is great. Love your work. And thank you so much for coming on Bad Has Bar.

But write back at you, by the way. You are, by the way, just incredible, I would say. Because I'd seen you before, got in touch and it's just like that comment because for me i think like comedy is often there's a reason dictators often go for satirists yeah so you know fingers cross things don't go completely down south because you're finished in that street but i know because it's but making like injustice and horror absurd is something which obviously a skillful comedian can do in a way that really gets people emotionally so well done you're great so well done yeah well we pat each of

on the back there haven't we this is disgusting i love it oh no it's great i you know i i only compliment so i could receive him back love me uh but thank you so much uh for coming on i really appreciate it owen jones everyone please follow him and uh yeah follow this podcast on all your podcast apps uh join the patreon patreon patreon dot com slash bad hasbara uh email me bad hasbara at gmail dot com uh and yeah until next time Let's see From the river to the sea Pierce Morgan

has no soul But he likes clicks and money There we go How about that Jumping jacks was us Push-ups was us Grop Maga us All karate us

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