Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - Bad Hasbara 15: Ceasefire Now! with Simone Zimmerman

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

This week Matt is joined by fellow LA Jew and co-founder of Jewish anti-apartheid group IfNotNow Simone Zimmerman who was recently featured in the new documentary Israelism. Buy tickets to see Matt Lieb and Francesca Fiorentini headline the Punch Line in Sacramento on Sunday, March 17th at 7pm.JOIN THE NEW PATREONSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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All of garden us White foster us Zabra Hamas Zabaras Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Bad Hasbara, the world's most moral podcast, where I take a look at the magical world of political propaganda from all over the world, specifically Israel. What's up, everyone? My name is Matt Lieb. Hi. Nice to see you here again. Thank you for listening to this podcast. I'm always stoked at how many people are actually listening to.

it given that this is a podcast that I started, you know, just because I was mad one night and I was like, I got to talk about my feelings. And, you know, the fact that you guys are joining in, me talking about my feelings makes me feel good and I love it. So thank you everyone out there who is listening to this podcast, just listening. The ones who are listening on Spotify or on Apple Podcast store, thank you so much. You rule and I love you. For those of you out there watching on YouTube, you rule and I love you as well.

However, this podcast is constantly demonetized. And so the only way that I can make money is usually it's like through the ads on the actual on the just the podcast part, you know, the audio like Spotify and stuff. And if you're listening on YouTube, I can't make no money. So just a reminder, we have a Patreon. dot com slash bad hasbara once again that is here it is in the ticker patreon.com slash bad has barra support us support me support you know my future producer someday i'll have one um support my sometimes co-host daniel mate who uh is going to be back this week talking about

stuff with me support please help or whatever um also once again, Sacramento Punchline, March 17th, that's a Sunday, 7 p.m., me, my wife, Francesca Fiorentini, we're going to be co-headlining. Get your tickets now, please. The link is in the freaking thing. So click that link and, you know, come see us, do comedy. It's a lot of fun. It'll be during St. Paddy's Day, so you can be drunk if you want. Either way. And finally, thank you to our mod at Reddit, J.P. Ben, who he's the moderator for Reddit.com slash R slash Bad Hasbara. So subscribe to the Reddit. Share us with us some of your favorite Hasbaras. Those are fun.

And thank you to Adam Levin, who is cutting up clips and helping me, you know, produce the show a bit. Hopefully someday I'll make more money and then I can pay him to be like a producer, producer that would be sick okay today we got quite an episode heavy one fellas uh now all of the episodes thus far have been pretty heavy i mean there's a genocide going on which uh is not always like the most ripe for comedy like jokes are hard during sad times but i also think are necessary and uh this week is no difference because uh this week as i'm sure all of you have heard or seen, uh, now, um, Aaron Bush now, who was an active duty airman in the U.S. Air Force set himself on fire in front of the Israeli embassy in D.C. and

live streamed it. Um, I'm not going to play the video, um, you know, at least the burning part because, uh, that is just, uh, if you've watched it, you know how, uh, absolutely horrifying it is. But I will play his statements before he did the act because I do think it is important for people to understand. And he wanted it to be shown. His reasoning was clear and sound. And if there's one thing you have to, you know, say is he had some real moral clarity in what he was doing. And I had that for you. Is Aaron Bush no? I am an active duty member. of the United States Air Force and I will no longer be complicit

in genocide. I'm about to engage in an extreme active protest but compared to what people have been experiencing in Palestine at the hands of their colonizers is not extreme at all. This is what our ruling class has decided will be normal.

So he then immediately after that poured gasoline or some sort of accelerant on himself and lit himself on fire and screamed free Palestine until, as one Twitter user said, his body physically couldn't produce words anymore. This was a gruesome act that I think, you know, a lot of people, even people who weren't. alive during Vietnam. It, you know, it brought you back to the time when monks in Vietnam set themselves on fire to protest what was going on there. And it was really both disturbing and, like, wondrous to watch because I'd never seen anything like it before. And it continued being one of those seminal moments, I think, in the past few months, because after, you know, while he was burning to death, a U.S. Secret Service agent pulled out his gun, literally pulled out his gun, and pointed it at him while others were screaming at him,

I don't need guns. I need a fire extinguisher. So this is a U.S. Secret Service man pointing a gun at a guy fully engulfed in flames while others are, you know, putting him out with a fire extinguisher. And he is keeping that gun on him. He is just, like, he does not let up. As if this guy is going to pull out a gun.

It's like one of the most insane things that I've ever seen. because it's just like what do you think's going to happen bro how much of a pussy do you need to be to point a gun at a guy who's fully on fire as if you're like no I've seen this before in one of my police training videos it's the old I'm on fire routine

you put yourself on fire but secretly you got a gun under there and you're going to shoot these I swear the amount of the pussary in American law enforcement is unmatched maybe, you know, maybe matched by Israeli security forces themselves.

But the U.S. government agent not helping put out the fire should come as no surprise to anyone as they reject all forms of ceasefire. But he said he was considering a humanitarian pause. See, that's a little joke. I have a little joke in there. I got to write a joke or else I get so sad that I don't want to move. So yeah, this I feel like fully encapsulates the American foreign policy in the Middle East, like you see the suffering and death just outside of sovereign Israeli territory,

and you decide, you know it'll help this, guns, more guns. Let's bring in some guns. I'm sure this will solve any kind of horror that's currently happening in the world. This, by the way, was the second protester to self-immolate in a desperate, attempt to protest our country's ongoing complicity in this Gaza genocide. In December, a woman protesting the war set herself on fire outside the Israeli consulate in Atlanta. And that's all we know about her. That's literally it. We know she was a woman who set herself on fire. We don't have a name. And if you read any of these news articles that came out the day that it happened,

these like bafflingly incurious journalists who reported it, they just state that it was a woman set herself on fire, and that one of the cops trying to put her out was burned. And that's all we know. There's no follow-up. There's no nothing. I don't know if she's alive or dead. But the one thing we do know is that the consul general of Israel to the southeastern U.S., Anat Sultan de Don, made this statement when it happened.

And I quote here, We are sadden to learn of the self-immolation at the entrance to the office building. It is tragic to see the hate and incitement towards Israel expressed in such a horrific way. The sanctity of life is our highest value. Our prayers are with the security officer who was injured while trying. trying to prevent this tragic act. I just, I love the, is a cop okay? Like I just, it's, it's, it's so callous that you're just like, you, the idea that these people

say these words out loud, you just, you can only imagine the complete inversion of every narrative that's going on in their mind where they're looking at a guy or a woman putting, pouring gasoline and setting yourself on fire and being like, damn, you must really hate Jews. That's it. That's got to be what happened. So this story, of course, was quickly buried by Western news media. There was no doubt that this would have been the case for Aaron Bushnell

if he hadn't recorded it and live streamed it on Twitch and now they can't ignore it. And the fact that it was covered up, that it was, sorry, the fact that it was covered at all seems like kind of a miracle but that doesn't mean the Hasbara machine and the cowardice and malice of the U.S. news media

wasn't also in full effect. Here is a headline from Newsweek yesterday trying to spin Aaron as just some crazy guy they said in Newsweek right here. Aaron Bushnell death report reveals police call about mental distress. Of course,

If you actually read the article, it's not about like some prolonged history of like mental illness, you know, police calls in the past where people like, I'm worried about Aaron. No, no, no. You literally, in the first sentence of that article, it is literally just about the police call that they got that a guy was setting himself on fire. That's what that was. It wasn't like the way that that is framed in Newsweek week is clearly trying to spin him as just some crazy guy. and, of course, we're going to see a lot more of that in the coming weeks with regards to Aaron Bushnell. It doesn't stop there.

The Washington Post had this headline. Airman, who set self on fire, grew up on religious compound, had anarchists past. Just already ready to smear a guy who was, you know, trying to bring attention to the complicity of the United States in this genocide, someone who showed more bravery than, I think, 99.9% of anyone in the media class or, you know, honestly, anyone in law enforcement or military that I have seen. And of course, NPR came in with a real banger. NPR never fails to be like the best at being cold and detached.

So they put out an article regarding Aaron Bushnell, and this was yesterday. And they said this, as of Monday morning, NPR was not able to independently verify the man's motives. What do you have to do? What do you have to do to independently bring? He made a video of himself, lighting himself on fire, screaming free Palestine. and you're sitting there like, well, what did he really mean, though? Like, maybe, like, was that code? Is this about the environment?

It's just about, like, you just, you have to be either dumb or malicious to look at that video and be like, I don't know, man. It could have been for any reason. What do you fucking need? Like a body language expert? body is currently on fire but i suppose we have to be thankful that the news covered it at all uh with CNN actually saying his last words uh on camera um you know they they actually reported it uh because at the end of the day it doesn't matter how many talking points you get um the media cannot

resist a spectacle so uh you know if it bleeds it leads um and that is why they actually talked about it, and I have a little bit from CNN. What our ruling class has decided will be normal. He then goes on to pour some sort of accelerant, it looks like, on his head out of a water bottle he was carrying, and then he lights himself on fire, Boris. And as the flames engulf him, you can hear him yelling, free Palestine, free Palestine again and again, until finally he collapses. And that is when officers, you can see them race in, one of them with a fire extinguisher in their hands, trying to put out the flames. We saw a similar incident in December when someone self-immolated lit themselves on fire outside of the Israeli consulate in Atlanta. But this feels different.

This is an active duty member of the military. There's late word tonight, President Biden saying late today that there is now hope for a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas within days. By next Monday, it comes amid a horrific scene outside the Israeli embassy in Washington, D.C., a U.S. airman setting himself on fire. So that's an interesting turn of events. That very night after Bushnell set himself on fire in front of the Israeli embassy in D.C., Biden apparently made the statement that there is a possible ceasefire that is going to happen in a week next Monday. And, you know, I, at first, when I saw this, and it was reported everywhere, mostly in headlines, for a second, I almost felt hope. I was like, oh, that would be great.

You know, is this happening? Like, did Aaron Bushnell's final act on earth cause some sort of change? But then I saw the source of that quote. And folks, I saw. I literally can't prepare you if you haven't seen when Biden said this I can't, I'll just play the video

he's at an ice cream shot You give us a second When you think that's his final start Well I hope By the beginning of the weekend I mean the end of the weekend At least my National Security Advisor tells me that we're close

We're close, not done yet And my hope is by next month I mean, we'll have a ceasefire. Okay, thank you. I mean, just look at this old, poor, crotchety, senile, genocidal,

Grampy. Like, he can't even eat some ice cream without being asked to stop a genocide. Just looking at that video, it just is so insane. I can't help but look at it. And just look at it as, like, cowardly, callous and cold, face, this old man eating ice cream and juxtaposing it with Aaron Bushnell's final act on

earth. Just the photo of Aaron on fire and this fucking old-ass man trying to eat his ice cream cone, just it's, it would be poetic if it wasn't so heavy-handed. You know what I mean? Like, it's just too on the nose. If there was any justice in this world, the flames of Aaron Bushnell would melt every single ice cream cone that this demented old bat ever tried to shove down his gaping maw and hopefully there will be justice but for now i can just say uh erin buschnell you were a real one wish i had known you um and free palestine man free palestine so that is today's main subject uh and now i'm going to bring in our guest uh Ladies and gentlemen, everyone else, we have a great guest today.

This is a dear friend of mine, a fellow Los Angeles Jew, co-founder of the Jewish anti-apartheid group, if not now, and recently featured in this new documentary called Israelism, which I suggest everyone see. Ladies and gentlemen, everyone else, our guest today is Simone Zimmerman. Hey. Oh, you're muted. There you are. I'm here. How are you are?

How are you doing, Simone? Well, I'm really sad after hearing your intro. Yeah, no, my intro is not. I mean, I would say it anyways, but, you know. Yeah, I tend to make it worse by reporting on it. I wish I didn't have to, but, you know, someone's got to do it. And I feel like if there's anyone who can relate to that, it's you, Simone. It is.

I see you. I resonate very deeply. Yeah. You're someone who, you know, I've known first, like for a long time, first as someone, you know, from if not now, I would see your posts and, you know, I was involved with it, if not now, if not now for a bit, I did like a training session with them and I've always very much respected that group. And then recently, you know, I think we met up for the first time like two years ago or I forget when, but you're just a badass. You're one of my favorite people and you're someone who's been doing this work for a long time. And I want to ask you about that and how you got into it, how this is, you know, how your life led you down the path of Jewish resistance. to Israeli apartheid. Yeah. And I'll just say, you know, I feel like I saw you on Twitter.

I saw those videos, your George Soros anti-Semitism video. Oh, yeah. And I was like, that guy knows what's up. I got to know this guy. Yeah. How is there a left-wing Jew who has the exact same thoughts as me, but is way funnier than me. And I don't know him. So I would like to change that.

Hell yeah. So here we are. Yeah. That's what brings us together. It's funny because whenever, you know I have a guest on this podcast and I'm always it's always very funny how many people are like oh damn you you know the the people you know are people that I know independently of this show and you seem to know them personally and it's like yeah you have to understand the Jewish anti-Zionist

you know like sphere is tiny tiny tiny like there's a lot of us uh you know I think um doing the work but in terms of like, you know, I don't know. It's just like we all kind of know each other, you know, it's, it's been a group of people. I can't decide if I want to validate that because, you know, they like, they want to make us look really small and margin. Right. I'm like, we're growing. There are so many of them. Well, there's been now more so than ever, which has been the great thing.

But I think, you know, for a long time, I think it's not crazy to say that our voices were the most marginalized. And I think, maybe not the most marginalized, not more so than Palestinians or Arab voices in the United States. But in terms of this, the press that was received by anyone who was talking about Israel, it was for the most part, it had to be, you know, it was, you find all of your institutional Jewish community talking about it and being, you know, and supporting Israel to the hilt. and they would pretend like we didn't exist. So we all kind of gravitated towards each other because we were talking about it publicly. And I feel like you and if not now deserves a lot of credit for normalizing the idea

of the anti-occupation, anti-apartheid or anti-Zionist or non-Zionist Jewish person in the United States. States. So good job. We're trying. I mean, you know, they're also hearing you say us, I'm like, there are people who out there who face way bigger costs than I did. Oh, sure. They were, they were out, you know, people who were in JVP, you know, 10 years before. I came. I mean, they were getting crazy attacks. But yeah, I mean, the Jewish establishment works very hard to attack anybody who doesn't tow the line who has any sort of, you know, I mean, I was 25 working for the Bernie Sanders campaign for five days and you know some of the most powerful figures in american jewish institutional life

made it a point to go out of their way and say you know this person should be here yeah like as if they had any credibility to comment like that's what always cracked me up about it like oh yeah like abe foxman cared about the success of the Sanders campaign right yeah yeah exactly like as if as if a foxman wasn't already calling Bernie Sanders a self-hating yeah they're like you know from our deep interest in the well-being of the like nascent progressive movement, you know, the growing youth led, all things I, you know, have a deep track record of investment in. Right. Yeah. And no, if they truly, you know, believed in what they were saying, you know, they would be like, they would leave the Bernie Sanders campaign alone completely. They would just

be like, yeah, that's just some fringe anti-send, you know, no one's going to, you know, fall for that stuff. But I think they saw, you know, um, this. as a threat to the narrative about what Jews are supposed to be like in the United States. Indeed. But you've, you know, you've faced a multitude of consequences. I, you know, at one point I saw a video where you had been detained at the Egyptian border for hours being questioned by Israeli, you know, soldiers about your political leaning. and whatnot. I mean, it seems like you're someone who has put yourself, you know, at, like, grievous personal risk multiple times. And I want, you know, I want to hear how you got to that

place, especially, you know, given your history, like, how did you go from, you know, who, someone who was grown up supporting Israel to someone who had their eyes open? yeah um well it kind of all started for me when i was an undergrad at uc berkeley and you know i've i've been obviously like reflecting a lot on all of this because of the film and the film talks about a lot of those experiences that i had and you know i had kind of two uh seemingly i thought these were complementary goals. When I went to college, I was like, I chose to go to UC Berkeley because I wanted to meet people who were different than me. I grew up in a very insular Jewish community in L.A., Jewish day school, Jewish summer camp, Jewish youth group. And I was like, I should probably meet some other people

that aren't just Jews from L.A. But I also thought that I was going to go do Israel advocacy. So I was like, I'm going to make these friends from different backgrounds, and then I'm going to teach them the truth about Israel, and I'm going to bring them over to the good side. You know, like, once we talk, they'll have a good chat with me, and I will fix it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The thing is, you know, like, they haven't yet heard these boilerplate Israeli as barra talking points from you before, you know? Correct. Yes. And I am particularly, you know, Yeah, I'm particularly, you know, I mean, I have to say like when I revisit some of the, both like my own memories, but also just footage and stories, there's a, there's something

very painful about realizing like how, how ignorant I was, but also how arrogant I was about it, because that's kind of the, like, that's part of the indoctrination strategy is to say, you know, you know the truth and you're going to go teach people the truth, even if you have no idea what you're talking about. Right. And like are totally ill-equipped to have these conversations. So, you know, I remember the first time that I, you know, had a conversation with a friend about Israel and I was like, I busted out all the best hits, you know.

I'd been, I was like, this is my moment, I'm here, I'm doing it. You know, I'm saying we were here first and they have, you know, all these 20-something other countries to go to and like, you know, they just want to kill us all and then she like had more questions for me because she, you know, read the news and had questions about things she was reading. And I was like, oh, shit, like I'm out, you know, and I remember, I, you're just reaching into the house, borrow bag of talking points. You go, kind of exhausted this. Did I mention that we were there first? Yes. I mean, that's, yes, that's like, you know, I, I, I, it's serious, but it's also completely absurd. Yeah. Like, this is really, um, part of what happens. And I

remember, you know, the really formative moment for me, my freshman year was this debate that we had about divestment from two. There was a bill in the student government that was calling on the university to divest from two American companies that had profited off of the 2008, 2009 assault on Gaza. And, you know, first of all, it's just like worth, I feel like I have to say, like, wow that's crazy that like people were like we shouldn't that you know the idea that like we shouldn't support american weapons manufacturers like already yeah there should be some red flags there yeah but alas this was you know framed to me just as an anti-israel bill right and i remember when i was part of you know part of this group that was called on to come

to the very first hearing before the bill even made it to the floor of the student government And there were these two graduate students who were in students for justice in Palestine. And they had these giant stacks of papers. It's like a very vivid memory for me. And they just like, they had the case ready. You know, this is what it was like to be living in Gaza during that assault. Yeah. And, you know, these are, this is the number of death.

This is exactly what these weapons were used for. I believe one of the companies was also, I think it was, um, I'm going to mess this, whatever. One of the companies, like, manufactured the Apache helicopters that dropped white phosphorus, and I believe the other one was involved in the surveillance that was used at checkpoints. Wow. HP and United Technologies, I think.

Or General Electric and United Technologies. Anyways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll look it up. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it matters, but also doesn't matter. It's okay. But so they're, you know, and they were detailing, like, all these very, you know, and they were detailing, like, all these very

very vivid, you know, descriptions and stories and, like, factual evidence compiled by human rights organizations about what the reality for Palestinians in the occupied territories was. Yeah. And I, all I had with me was, I'm not even joking. Like, I had an Alan Dershowitz article. That's like, I had an Alan Dershowitz article that was like, these are the reasons why you should, and divest from Israel and I just just the idea of like it's like showing up you know I would say it's like showing up with a knife to a gunfight but this is like showing up with like a banana that

you're going to put in your hand and go pew pew yeah this is where we have to laugh about it a little bit you know and I just like I mean also I like grew to know these characters so like I mean one of these grad students was like an incredibly thoughtful yeah israeli israeli by the way Israeli anti-Zionists like really had been deeply invested in his learning and activism for many, many, many years. And then it was like us, these kids from Hillel who literally had like, you know, a one pager about like, okay, our turn. So, uh, you know, well, it's a double standard. Uh, why are you singling out Israel and not any of these other countries? Uh, well, you know, And like, it's, what's interesting to me about it, too, was that, you know, they showed a little bit of this in the documentary that you're featured in Israelism.

And one of the things that, uh, I think was shown on that like one sheet was like tone directions. Like, like they were like, be emotional. So this is, yeah, so this is another thing. Yeah. That was basically after the bill. passed. It passed like in the student government and then there was this big lobbying campaign that included, you know, Jewish organizations in the Bay Area. It also included the Israeli consul general himself involved in this lobby effort. Yeah. That, you know, was really, I think,

miserable and intimidating to the like student government leaders who had all this intense pressure on them. Sure. And and so before the next tier, where we were having these debates about whether or not the student government would veto, override the veto, the student body president's veto, they gave out these papers that gave us guidance about, you know, what to say, how to say it. We had an agreed set of talking points. And, you know, I think, again, there's a, there's a little bit of a, I guess, lack of self-awareness or carelessness. Sure. But, I mean, we left these papers behind. They were all over the floor. Some organizers picked

them up and they were featured in a movie that was made this was a movie made like uh over a decade ago about these divestment hearings specifically oh wow and i mean i mean what's interesting i just i love the there's the normalization of this kind of like um you know has barra handbook stuff where um you are so uh it's just seen as so normal it's just seen as so normal that you would have like, you know, the Israeli consul general, you know, showing up and giving you like, here's how to win an argument that you don't even question like, well, if I already feel passionately about this, like, I should be able to win an argument on its merits and not so much need the, you know, need a, like, why are you teaching me how to win this argument?

like the why am i responsible as a as a kid for your PR and for being the face of this fight and you know you know i think it's just like you don't even question it you're yeah but go on well i was just going to say that i you know i'm going to connect a dot to something that you just that you said in the intro that just like absolutely horrifying statement from the israeli consulate about the woman who let herself on fire outside that, you know, it's so sad that people just hate Israel so much. Right. Like there's a way, there's a way in which, first of all, I actually think they're not trying to win the argument on the merits. They're not, I'm not even convinced they're like trying to, they're trying to win the argument, but definitely not on its merits. Sure.

They're not engaging directly in the argument. And the, and the kind of, you know, the message that that i got growing up in this you know very pro-israel community was that like there's this very intense like paranoia and distrust of anybody who's outside of the community and and you get told that there are all these efforts you know to delegitimize and to demonize Israel that are unfair and and biased and this and that and so before you even like engage critically you don't have to think critically at all about the substance of what anyone's saying because you already know that it's wrong. You already know that it's an attack on you. You know that it's going to make you unsafe. And so you just have to fight it. And so when that's like, you know, and so that's like

I feel I obviously cringe watching this older footage of myself, but I also feel like I have to have some compassion for like my own ignorance of like I was doing what I was told, which was to go and defend my people. And and then like actually what was the transformative experience for me was sitting in these student government hearings and listening to literally two hours of testimony from Palestinian students who talked about their own experiences with Israeli occupation and apartheid. I mean, these stories are like seared into my memory. I will never forget them in my life. Like I remember what some of these people look like, you know, what, you know, what it was like that, you know, that your family members couldn't sleep.

for weeks while the bombs were falling overhead in Gaza, what it is like to be beaten at a checkpoint. You know, there was a student who said, my shoulder's never been the same since I was beaten at a checkpoint. And another student who talked about being detained in the airport when he goes to visit his family, like these, and I remember sitting there and like having a moment with myself where I was like, there's no way all of these people are lying.

Like these are my peers. Like we go to, we go to, we're on the same campus right now. Like, I don't know. these people seem pretty reasonable like also our side is not responding at all to anything they're talking about there's got to be something else going on here and and i started asking people questions like why aren't we responding and even like i'll just add another layer onto this so like you mentioned these talking points we were told to say you know i feel silenced by my student government i feel unsafe i feel uncomfortable and people before we could even make these talking points

they would get up and debunk them. And they would hold up a mirror to us. And there was one student who got up and said, you know, Jewish students, you're talking about feeling silenced and marginalized on campus. Meanwhile, your communal institutions are actively in the process of passing red lines that forbid critical conversations inside their buildings. Right at that time, the San Francisco JCRC was writing its red lines policy that became, like, a precedent that many other Jewish organizations across the country then adopted, barring,

you know, critical voices, anti-Zionists, Palestinians from being heard even like from allowing those events to happen inside the building. And there was even a video of the head of APEC's campus department who said, we're going to get pro-Israel students to take over the student government and reverse the vote. That's how APEC operates in our nation's capital and that's how we need to operate on our nation's campuses. And that video went viral on campus. Like I had been there at the conference, you know, applauding. And then people were all of a sudden were like, excuse me. And this was like all these moments of it. You guys are planning a coup on camera? Yeah. It is, it's wild, you know, to see kind of like the difference in rhetoric. You said

something about like, you know, it can't be possible that all these people are lying. And I think that it resonates with me for sure. Because I also look at like, you know, when people say like, you know, someone might respond with like, oh, well, you know, all these like the Zionists out there are lying. What about, you know, they say that Zionists are all liars. What I see, at least in my life, has been not Zionists, you know, personally that I know, people who are their other things first and Zionist second, you know. I don't see them lying, I see them reverting back to a broad, like, overlook of the entire Middle East conflict whenever an argument that is personalized is brought forth. So someone, you know, gives a personal experience like an anecdote about something that happened

of them being a Palestinian student or like living in Palestine, living in the West Bank or living in Gaza, and talks about their experience or the experience of their families. And then people, you know, like myself, like yourself, you know, when we're younger, like people that we've known, not trying to debunk that claim, but looking at it at this more broad picture of like, well, it's important to remember that, you know, historical. Historically, X, Y, and Z happened and this and that, and then you bring up like, you know, Simone Perez was going to give you a state and you said no. And you know, and you start like trying to give a history lesson to not to so much

justify what's happening to that person in their experience, but to change the subject to being about like something broader, something more, something bigger than just you at a checkpoint and so it's it's not so much uh that they are constantly lying to you it's that it's like we're lying to ourselves in order to like come to be to sleep at night honestly like to to be comfortable with the realities that we have chosen to you know to live in and those realities are not often based in reality but yeah i think i think you're completely right about that but it's and it's also like they're not they're not consistent in that strategy so like oh yeah same time as like you know a personal anecdote of a Palestinian living under occupation

is you know has to have all this like bigger context you know one Jewish student who had a really uncomfortable experience on a college campus or is like you know freaked out by having to hear things that contradict their worldview yes like is worthy of being a national headline. Right, right. Yeah, it's, it's a crazy level of just like detachment from, I don't know, I would say it's a detachment from like empathy for, for others. But it's also, I think, like, it speaks to a level of, like, I want to say,

like programming and sort of um i mean almost cult like programming that goes on throughout you know childhood where the these talking points are just so burned into you that to have them challenged especially given that you know that worldview is based on your own um personal like victimhood like this idea of like anyone being against israel is just so insane to you because it's like saying you're against Jews. It's like you're saying you're against me. So when someone challenges that, you know, it's not so much that they're like, it's sounds like it's like the first time you deal with anti-Semitism. That's what it feels like. That's what you've been programmed to believe is happening. The first time you hear someone say like Israel is bad or

Israel is the bad guys, you're just like, I've never heard someone say something anti-Semitic before and you feel like your own personal experience is almost equivalent to someone who's like I was physically beaten at a checkpoint and my shoulder doesn't work anymore. You're like, yeah, well, you know, one time I heard someone say something that my dad said wasn't real. So we all have our struggles, you know what I'm saying? I do know what you're saying. I mean, I also, I'll say this actually made me think about that I had an experience literally

in one of these divestment hearings. were at the end of it a guy turned around to me and my friend and was like you guys still killed Jesus and I was like whoa like that was actually like the first real anti-semitic thing that had ever been said to me in my life yeah but I I remember at that moment I was like and this is why all of this is wrong right right you know like not whoa there's a guy like there's a dude in here who happens and and like you know I mean this has even happened to me recently at a at an Israelism screening where a guy came up to me afterwards and said something super anti-Semitic to me and I was like actually really glad that, you know, the film talks about the prevalence of

anti-Semitic ideas and movements in this country today and that like, you know, I'm very proud that the work I do includes, you know, teaching people about, you know, a progressive analysis of anti-Semitism, being sure that like as we speak out for Palestinian freedom and, liberation that we understand the ways that like anti-Semitism you know can get used to derail these movements that understanding it and like fighting anti-Semitism is like a core part of our work for safety and liberation for all people yeah and I remember and like I think some people will take all that to be like Palestinians just have to deal with it you know like that's not my problem or I will use any of these these moments to kind of wholesale

de-legitimize an entire movement. You know, I, and it's just so, it's so cynical and it's so gross. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's, it's one of the reasons, like, I don't know, it's not, it's one of the reasons I started doing this podcast was, well, number one, I wanted to do this podcast for a while. Actually, it's, you're someone who is, can back up my claim.

about how long have I been talking about doing this podcast. You were talking about it and I was like, do it. Yeah. And now here we are. Yeah. For a long time, this is something that I wanted to do. But I was like, I just want someone else to do it so that I can listen to it because it's a subject that interests me a lot.

But it's also a subject that takes a lot of time and a lot of research and also a lot of emotional energy that, you know, I don't have. Like, I don't have it now. And I'm doing this podcast. But, you know, I'm doing it just because at this point, it's the only thing that's keeping me saying. But, but yeah, one of the reasons that I started this podcast was because of the fact that I think like some, you know, the fact is, is that this conflict, this subject, I think does have the potential. to radicalize people in ways that I think can be anti-Semitic. Like, you know, you see the way in which people interact with this.

And I think if you're coming from a place of, you know, just general ignorance about this, it is hard to blame someone for making rhetorical mistakes, I would call them, like saying Jews instead of Zionists talking about the Jews or like, you know, repeating sort of tropes and whatnot. And I think that when that stuff kind of happens, especially if the person doesn't know any Jews, Israel and there, Hasbaris, one of the things they try to do is make being supportive of Israel and being Jewish synonymous. Like, basically, the same thing. So in selling that

and in marginalizing the voices of Jews who are critical of Israel, it can cause people to be like, these damn Jews are trying, you know, they're all together doing a genocide. And like one of the

reasons why I think I wanted to speak out about this was because that narrative is bullshit. Because Jews often, and for ever, I mean, for at least the existence of Israel and the existence of Zionism, have debated Israel, have talked shit about Israel. And a lot of the times it's been behind closed doors. A lot of the times it's been, you know, something that you don't want to share with the rest of the world

because you're afraid that the rest of the world, it's like a betrayal of other Jewish people. And you're afraid of like, well, you know, we don't want to give them a reason to hate Jews. so you know we got to keep this to ourselves um but then it just it comes to a point at which like you you know if you don't see any uh Jewish voices who are critical of Israel you start seeing people who just you know they get more and more radicalized to the idea that like the Jews are a you know monolith who all support Israel and will you you know, there are fifth column who will, you know, try to take over governments. It just like starts spinning out.

And like for me, one of the like kind of best genre of message that I've received from people who listen to this podcast has been them saying, thank you for doing this because I didn't know that there were Jews out there who believe the same things that I believed. And I started to feel myself getting, you know, a little bit uncomfortable with some of the beliefs I was starting to have about Jewish people or about Israel and whatnot. And I think it, you know, it's, you know, goes hand in hand with the fight against, you know, Zionism and racism is also a fight against anti-Semitism. You know, it's, it is, they are inextricably linked because, you know, the, you know, we are against racism, period, whether it's Israeli racism against Palestinians or, you know, European Christians racism against Jews. And yeah, I don't know, that's my thought on that. Yeah, I mean, all great thoughts. Thank you. I mean, this does make me think about, you know,

it's completely understandable, both that, you know, Jews who are asking questions are feeling lonely. because there is such a systematic attack on critical Jewish voices inside Jewish communities and a very aggressive attempt even as our movements are growing so much and we have Jews speaking out all over the world to continue to like try to reinforce this hegemonic narrative in view and I mean just like as you were speaking and then like it's also understandable why people are so confused about anti-Semitism right now because some of the groups that are, you know, the loudest and the most powerful and well-funded, you know, I'm thinking right now about a group like the Anti-Defamation League. They only make this problem a million times worse.

Absolutely. And it's, you know, you can't help but feel sometimes like maybe this is really good for their business model, you know? Yeah. Keeping Jews scared and paranoid. Like, keeps the doors open and 100%. Yeah. I mean, you bring up the ADL and I think that is something that I've wanted to cover more on the show. But like what I find particularly, I don't know, disgusting and also like slightly terrifying about it is that the ADL was not originally a Zionist like group it did not exist for you know perpetuating the existence and security of Israel there's actually like I will just say there's this new book that just came out called our Palestine question our Palestine question the professor's name is Jeffrey Levin

he's a professor at Emory and it it's a it actually talks about the history of dissenting voices within the American Jewish community since the founding of the state and and like there's just so much really rich yeah history about how these organizations groups today like the the ADL and the AJC that are so locked up with the Israeli government yeah like that really had real questions about what is this going to be and even like the reform movement right what is this going to mean about what is it going to mean you know about our position on refugees we have communities like American Jews were so close to the refugee experience how do we relate to the the Palestinian refugee crisis.

I mean, like conversations that you can't even imagine today and having those conversations in the community or like what are people gonna think about our loyalty as Americans? Like maybe this is gonna risk people thinking we have dual loyalty, which is this classic anti-Semitic idea. These are these were actual conversations taking place in the community, you know, 75 years ago, even 50 years ago that these organizations

have worked very, very hard to like marginalize and it's and it's really meaningful to see that there are people who are trying to bring these stories back to the fore to remind us that it's not just this like new youth led movement that we have in the streets today but actually there's like a real lineage that we're connected to that has always existed in our community yeah yeah and and it's you know it's not a history that is told at all because of the fact that you know you're it's As far as most people are concerned, you know, at least in the Jewish community when it comes to the subject of Israel, it's like we've rewritten the history of, you know, Zionism to not just be this, you know, early 20th century creation, but some sort of like an integral part to Judaism and to the history of Jews as if, you know, this state had existed. You know, this entire time, we just hadn't yet come around to it. And so it makes the idea of talking about criticism of Israel and these questions about, like, what are people going to say about dual loyalty or like the fifth column trope that we get? Like, it just changes the history to be like, no, no, no, Jews have never talked about that. Jews have only ever supported Israel even before there was the modern state of Israel.

but like groups like the ADL are interesting to me because of the fact that they served what I would consider like a pretty like like a pretty important purpose of like documenting anti-Semitism and they were essentially a Jewish civil rights group for a long portion of their history and you know they continue to this day to you know be there to say something when like Charlottesville happened. or when someone, you know, desecrates a graveyard with a swastika, a Jewish graveyard with a swastika or whatnot. But more and more, in the last few decades, the ADL has turned to a one of a handful of powerful Israel advocacy groups in America that we've come to the point at which they will run cover for anti-Semites, like Elon Musk, for example,

because at the end of the day, you know, Elon is going to support Israel and he's going to, you know, go there and say like, yeah, we got to kill all the Palestinians and say, okay, cool, you know, as long as they're doing that, that's fine. And I'd say that puts us in a pretty dangerous position because advocating for Jews where they live, like in America, seems to be the purpose of something like the ADL at one point. seems like maybe part of their original mission statement as opposed to doing advocacy for a foreign government, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think that Elon Musk, like the whole dynamic with him is like such a scandal. And it's crazy that it really hasn't gone. Like, you know, I feel like there's this thing that happens for those of us like on the

Jewish left who are trying to kind of talk about these things where we're like, hello like the most powerful man in the world like has bought this platform is using it to unleash like straight white nationalists like straight no filter white nationalists yeah yep and it's like then you know it's like the idea that it only bears like you know a passing mention that that this person specifically I'll say like he had this this incident where I'm now going to forget the actual tweet but there were it was like pretty soon yeah you have it no yeah no I'm I'm I I vaguely remember the tweet was basically there was this incredibly anti-semitic I remember that much yeah just like I mean textbook like you know like really a case study in just you know you know

the most vile ideas about Jews that you could have. And he was like, this is the truth, right? And like ADL kind of put out like a slap on the risk statement about that, I think. But then the next day, Elon was like, I'm going to ban River to the C on X. Right. And like, and then Jonathan Greenblot was the head of the ADL was like, wow, thank you so much. And then like Elon must. then be like this guy, there's one thing he loves, it's us Jews.

Yeah. And then like, you know, Prime Minister Netanyahu hosted a whole event with him. So it's like you see the way that like the Israel advocacy network that ranges from like, you know, pro-Israel groups in the U.S. to like actual Israeli government are actively whitewashing and laundering the reputations of some of the most powerful anti-Semites in the world. Yeah. as long as they help shill for Israeli apartheid and help advance these really, you know, draconian, oh, nice. Yeah, so I have the tweet.

I pulled it up. I pulled it up. And it said some white nationalists who, they all blew check marks now. They're all paying $8 a month to Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, so that they can spew this kind of shit and get it seen. Okay, Jewish communities have been pulled.

pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them. I am deeply disinterested in giving the tiniest shit now about Western Jewish populations coming to the disturbing X, Y, Z. Looks like it was cut off. Yeah, it looks like it was cut off. And Elon Musk just wrote, you have said the actual truth. this kind of idea of like Jews being like deep down having a hand in sort of anti-white like I don't know organizations and movements you know like Jews are trying to get immigrants subvert the societies that we live in nefarious controlling behind the scenes schemers right with like old school

European like anti-semitism boilerplate textbook exactly and Elon Musk saying you have said the truth is just like I mean that's a horrifying

thing for I mean anyone to agree with let alone the richest man in the fucking world like the fact that he is buying into that is wild the point really is that you see

you know Jonathan Greenbott at the ADL kind of continuously make the choice to whitewash people in power who actually, like, say anti-Semitic things or are, you know, helping mainstream anti-Semitism in different ways with like a very polite slap on the risk. Oh, I know him. I'm sure he didn't really mean it. Yeah. And then most of where they actually use their muscle is on like just trying to obliterate the reputations of, you know, left-wing, people of color, women of color, Palestinians, and, you know, just like smearing and attacking the Palestine movement in just, you know, the grossest ways.

Once again, not really trying to win the arguments, like just attacks and smears. And, you know, more importantly, we should say, because you brought up the kind of history of the ADL as this organization. that is, you know, actually has, like, ostensibly a role in, like, being an anti-extremism organization and being, like, a leading source on, you know, violent extremism. Like, we're seeing now reports coming out of their own researchers who are saying, you know, first of all, the Jewish currents reported about, I think about a month ago or so, about actually a top executive who was brought to the ADL to comment. combat online extremism who left the organization because of the way it was handling Elon Musk and the whole Twitter thing.

Like, I mean, people within the organ, there's just like a ton of dissent from within the organization. And then people who are in the like extremism research departments saying to reporters that the way the head of this organization is conducting himself and also like the way this organization has prioritized Israel advocacy over. fighting extremism is actually undermining the credibility, like, of their work and of their mission. And, you know, I mean, they put out this report about a month ago as well that was like the latest count of anti-Semitic incidents and at least 40% of the incidents in that report were so-called anti-Israel marches and events. And so it's like, how can you even trust the data? Like, we don't know that, like, you can't trust the data that they're putting out on anti-Semitism because so many things that they lump into that are actually have to do with Israel. Right, right.

And that is an actual material danger, you know. Correct. The idea that... It makes people not believe that anti-Semitism is real. It makes people not believe that Jews, like, have risks to our safety. Yes. And the fact that, like, the most influential organization who is ostensibly like shaping the public conversation on this continues to discredit themselves

actually endangers us. Yes, 100%. It's like one of the reasons why I think it's like important to talk about this is because we are not living, you know, in this, you know, this idea that like being against Israel is automatically being against Jews is automatically anti-Semitism. And this idea of just calling anyone who was criticizing Israel

and anti-Semite up and including the Jews and people like Aaron Bushnell who set himself on fire and being like, well, this is, you know, people who are doing this clearly, you know, hate Jews that much. It waters down the meaning of anti-Semitism to a point where you find people who, are just sick of

like they're immune to the smear so therefore anyone who is called an anti-Semite it's just like that people are scoffing and you know throwing their hands up and going like oh bullshit I don't believe any of you which is a danger that is a material actual like that puts Jews in danger in the world and

like having the ADL play along with that and like be a part of that is an insane thing. It just, it's, it's, it blows my mind. And I think it blows a lot of people's minds in general the way that like, you know, when people say something like Zionism and the state of Israel are anti-Semitic, like people just go like, oh, that, what? How can that be? Also, like, let's say that the inverse of what you said is also true, which is that the fact that these organizations continue to say, any attack on Israel is an attack.

on Jews. And if you don't like Israel, you don't like Jews, then also reinforces this idea that all Jews are responsible for what is happening in Israel right now. And so not only does it make people not believe that anti-Semitism is a real thing, but then it makes people think that Jews are a legitimate target for their rage at the Jewish state. Right, right. Because I mean, which doubly endangers us. Exactly. And it is, you know, I'm not going to pretend to be altruistic here. like there's a percentage of me that's like, you know, I don't like anti-Semitism and that's a big reason why I'm talking about it. You know, it's like it is, it is also about self-preservation. You know, the, you know, I think it's one of the beautiful traditions of Jews throughout the world

has been advocating against racism in societies and advocating for, you know, groups, minority groups living in other states to have the same rights and protections as anyone else. And it is, you know, that includes Jews and it includes all sorts of groups. But the way in which, you know, Jews are attacked for being anti-Israel is always, I think, the most interesting thing to me and to, I think a lot of our listeners is just like seeing the way in which a Jew will be torn down by, you know, these institutions and Zionist institutions and Zionist advocacy groups and Israel advocacy groups, even if they're not Jewish. And that leads me to this recent thing that happened with the film No Other Land, one best documentary

at in the berlinale the berlinale the berlinale i don't think we're renounce right but no yeah you say it with an italian accent i think it's in germany yeah well i'm still going to do with the you know italian accent because it's more fun um and uh one of the uh films uh i think directors now this was made by a collective of both uh jewish-Israelis and Palestinians who made this, and it's a documentary about Israeli apartheid. And so Yuval Abraham, when they won the award, he went on stage, and he gave a little speech that has since, number one, went viral, and number two, caused him a bit of a headache. So I'm going to play a little bit of that for y'all.

I want to say we are, we are standing in front of you now. Me and Basel are the same age. I am Israeli, Basel is Palestinian. And in two days, we will go back to a land where we are not equal. I am living under a civilian law and Basel is under military law. We live 30 minutes from one another, but I have voting rights. Basel is not having voting rights. I'm free to move where I want in this land.

Basel is like millions of Palestinians locked in the occupied West. bank, this situation of apartheid between us, this inequality, it has to end. I want to say we are standing in front. So he gave that speech after winning this award, and, you know, it didn't go great for him because now he is receiving death threats, and he was planning on returning back to Israel after this but he has not yet because of the amount

of pushback that he has gotten from both Israelis, from Jews and Israel, as well as Germans who are going after him which is, I think one of the more mind-blowing things is just like when a German

official feels comfortable enough to criticize Jews, is Jews as being anti-Semitic. And you sent me this article that was in the Guardian that I'm going to read some of. So go ahead. I mean, I was just going to say like there's so many levels of, you know, yes, these people

should be like totally humiliated and roasted for the just like desecration. and like just like complete upside down land that is the way that the state of Germany has like completely offloaded its guilt about the Holocaust into this intensely pro-Israel, intensely anti-Palestinian. And then, you know, as I think you're about to read Yuval's statement, you know, after he was called, he was called anti-Semitic

by multiple politicians in Germany. Yeah. And his statement and response is just so powerful, so you should just read it. Yeah. So Israeli director receives death threats after officials call Berlin Film Festival anti-Semitic. An Israeli filmmaker who won one of the top prizes at the Berlin Film Festival has said German officials' description of the award ceremony is anti-Semitic has led to death threats and the physical intimidation of family members, causing him to hold off plans to return to Israel. Yuval Abraham, 29, was on Saturday awarded the Berlanale's Best Documentary Film Award for no other land, which charts the eradication of Palestinian villages in Masafur Yata.

How is that I pronounce it? Masafriata. Yeah, Masafriyata. I'd said it close enough. Close enough. In the West Bank. Abraham's acceptance speech, which was in which he decried a situation of a party. and called for a ceasefire in Gaza was one of several moments during the closing ceremony

in which the filmmakers expressed solidarity with Palestine. It sparked outcry in German media the following day with several politicians alleging the speeches had been anti-Semitic. To stand on German soil as the son of Holocaust survivors and call for a ceasefire and then to be labeled as anti-Semitic is not only outrageous, it is also literally putting Jewish lives in danger, Abraham told the Guardian. I don't know what Germany is trying to do with us, he added. If this is Germany's way of dealing with his guilt over the Holocaust,

they are emptying it of all meaning. Mike drop. Yeah, I mean, and I think that is like so important. That last bit is so important because you see, the way in which Germany is, um, you know, invokes the Holocaust, um, for its Israel advocacy. Um, and I, I can't think of anything more anti-Semitic than watering down the Holocaust. You know what I mean? Like, I can't think of anything more anti-Semitic than changing, um, than being a German person, a German official. And trying to tell the son of a Holocaust survivor,

you know what you're doing is very holocausty. You know, as a German, I think I know a thing or two about the Holocaust. And that speech you said, wow. Big yikes, dog. Like, you know, these guys are, are, you know, when you do this kind of like revisionism and you also like end up trying to, put a Jew's life in danger, you know, in order to show that you are the most pro-Israel. Like, I look at that and I just go, like, we are living in like upside-down land, man.

Like, this is fucking insane. It's just crazy. I'm going to just add, like, one other detail to the story, which is at the bottom of the same article that you were just reading from. But it's like, it's just so, oh, just absurd. Like, first of all, like, you know, Yuval was attacked for also speaking about the reality that Basel, his, you know, partner in this film, they're both journalists who write for 972 magazine.

Yeah. Like, he's also talking about the, the horror, first of all, the horrifying reality that Basel lives under that's the subject of the film, right? Right. And, like, that he's also worried about Basel's safety for, for, you know, the reality. the you know potential backlash from this and and in response to all this backlash which has now included calls for the resignation of the minister of state for culture her name is Claudia Roth who I guess there was footage of her clapping at the event so now there have been calls

and I just want to like draw the connection it's like we see this happening in the US also which is like these calls to defund culture higher education every all the state culture in germany is state funded so they're always trying to get this culture minister fired and she then puts out a statement clarifying that her applause was directed at the jewish-israeli journalist and filmmaker and not and not at the palestinian which is like it's so racist like you said that out loud like that's your that's your damage control is being like listen listen i i i know it looks bad when i I clapped during him talking about apartheid in Israel and, you know, a ceasefire and all

that stuff. But I want to be clear. I wasn't listening to the Jew talking. I don't know the Jewish words. All I saw was a Jew and I said, yes. Yes, I loved Jews. And when the Palestinian was talking, I said, uh-uh, not from me, Jew hater, not from me.

Like this is, this is what kind of society is this? it's really cartoonage i'm not going to even try to editorialize because you did great i just listen i can't i can't end a bad hasbar podcast without eventually doing an accent and uh i'm glad it does seem to be a it's a theme with me yeah listen i'm not good at them but i enjoy we got a lot in here on this episode yeah we got a few i got italian in somehow um but yeah like that that it's just so it's It is so detached from reality. It's so detached from like what I think any normal person would look at. Like know what normal person is going to see that statement and go, oh, okay.

I was worried that you were doing something racist, but then I found out you didn't, you specifically didn't clap for the Palestinian and now I feel better. Like. Yeah, it's like maybe you didn't learn a lot of lessons that you should have learned from. Yeah. it seems like your history has taught you nothing um and you know it's i i feel like you know when i talk to um i mean especially like the germans who listen to this podcast um you you see the amount of kind of like repression in terms of like um expressing any feelings whatsoever of

discomfort with the idea that israel is just kind of like allowed to do whatever it wants because of you know and Germans aren't allowed to say anything because of their history and whatnot and like I feel I just I feel bad you know I feel I feel bad because you know at the same time you know I'm like I'm like yeah you know you know I think you should be able to with absolute moral clarity be a German citizen and be like genocide is bad um at the same time uh you know I can see people being like no you guys don't say nothing just you know like I would rather It's like I'd rather they were just sitting this one out. Sitting this one out.

Like that's the best thing that they could do. It's literally the best thing they could do. But instead, you know, they've, you know, they are just, they've pinned a button on their lapel that says the most Israel advocacy. They joined Israel at the ICJ. Yes, they did. And, you know, if there's one thing that Germany is. is known for its being... Defending genocide.

Defending genocide at a war crimes trial. So listen, they have experience, I get it. You call on your people who know their shit. But yeah, so listen, that's the world that we live in. It's a sad one and it's got a lot of tragedy, but you know what it also has? It has awesome people like Simone Zimmerman who are out here. you know, speaking truth to power, and I don't mean that facetiously.

You do great work, and I'm so glad that I got to have you on this podcast after years of talking to you guys. It's an honor. I've been waiting for my moment. Yes, your moment has come to be on a podcast that is not nearly as successful as the ones you've done before. The other appearances, which, by the way, every appearance that you've made on those other things has been great. You're fantastic. case you don't know, you are great and keep up the good work. Thank you. Can't wait to come back here. Hell yeah. Come back anytime. Where can people find you and find your work? I'm on Twitter

and I'm on Instagram. My handle is the same at both places. It's Simone R. Zim. Simone R. Zim. Check her out. Twitter, Instagram. And yeah, follow. her immediately. And you can watch Israelism. It's available to rent anywhere in the world right now. And we're also having lots of screenings all around the world. Wonderful. It's a great, it's really, it is a great documentary. And I think it couldn't have come at a more opportune time to use that crass word. But like the fact that it came out now while this is all going on, it really. It came out actually a year ago. Oh, did it? It premiered a whole year ago now. But yes, it wasn't available for rent until very recently. No, it was doing the festival circuit at the beginning and it was doing campus screenings.

But yeah, I mean, I hope that it's a tool for people to have hard conversations about bad Hasbara in their communities. Yes. I mean, it really is like, for me, it was a great thing to watch for, I don't know, just like putting. in context, the level of Hasbara that we are inundated with when we are younger and the institutions that are trying to keep us in this bubble and seeing people break out of it in a multitude of ways and some ways more tragic than the others, like, you know, the one subject to join the IDF and saw what that was actually like. But like, but like, seeing the way in which people come to like realize that everything they've been told is lies is I think it's important because it also I think humanizes um you know uh I think a lot of us who are you know having to deal with people thinking we're a monolith and that we are you know like you know how could you know just blindly support Israel and I think it puts into context like

dog we were born supporting Israel like it is it is not a it is not an easy thing to to break born this way yeah I was born this way exactly but yeah it is it is a great film and and you are you're fantastic in it and you're a fantastic guest thank you for coming on thanks Matt thanks for this fantastic podcast to make us all feel a little bit more sane I hope so at the very least i hope people just enjoy me doing shitty accents uh patreon dot com slash bad hasbara please join um and uh you'll see there's a new tier for ten dollars i will shout you out on the podcast uh those are coming i'll i'll collect those soon but please uh you know join it's listen it's uh it's the way i can support myself and continue doing this um but if not you know also i just enjoy

you guys listening bad hasbar at gmail.com for all of your questions comments and concerns all right everyone thanks again so much for listening and until next time from the river to the sea what the fuck is going on in germany jumping jacks was us push-ups was us grab-maga us all karate us taking molly us Michael Jackson us Yamaha keyboards Us Georgia makes not us Andor was us

Heath Ledger Joker us Endless Fred success Happy Meals was us McDonald's was us Being happy us Equipum yoga us Eating food us Breathing air us

Drinking water us We invented all that shit Thank you.