Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - Bad Hasbara 33: General Psychopathy, with Wajahat Ali

Episode Date: June 7, 2024

Due to it being late in France where most moral co-host Daniel is currently visiting, Matt did a solo episode with writer and commentator Wajahat Ali about how bad the hasbara has gotten.Buy Waj's book Go Back To Where You Came FromDonate to the Palestinian Children's Relief FundSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Welcome hot bitch We invented the terry tomato And weighs USB drives and the iron d'o Israeli salad oozy stint and jopas orange rose Micro chips is us iPhone cameras us taco salads us Bothobados us Olive Garden us

White foster us Zabrahamas As far as us to another episode of Bad Hasbara, the world's most moral podcast. I am your host, Matt Lieb, and I'm so excited for y'all to be here with me talking about some Israeli propaganda. Just a quick shout out, first and foremost, to our most moral producer, Adam Levin. He's on the ones and twos, whatever those are, whatever that is ever meant.

Don't know. I think it has something to do with. producing music don't know what it means but he's out here and he's doing a great job so shout out to him also shout out to everyone who has joined the patreon patreon.com slash bad hasbarra um y'all are you all are amazing you have been able to support this podcast um and you have been able to make this something worth doing for me which is a big deal because i like doing it i i have fun well fun is relative. I enjoy doing it, or at least it's good for my mental health to do it. It might also be bad. I don't know why I do it. I do it because I need to do it and the fact that I can do it

and it doesn't just make my life harder is beautiful. So thank you for everyone. And for all of you who don't pay for it. It's all good. Thank you for just tuning in and watching it. And thank you for subscribing on all of the podcast apps. You can subscribe on Spotify. You can subscribe on Apple, Apple podcast store, Pocketcasts, all those ones. So please subscribe. And you know, you can continue to watch it. That's fine too. But subscribe as well. That helps. Okay, today, it's just me. Not the whole episode. I have a guest, but Daniel is in France. And he is umpah tired because, uh, it is 11 p.m. out there right now is the time that we're recording this. So, uh, he is going to dormier. I don't really know. I don't know that much French, but he's going to, he's going to go, uh, sleep skis.

Uh, he's going to Dorme vu like Farajaka. This is at some point, this just feels anti-French, but that's okay. So I will be your most moral host, just me. And we have a wonderful guest, a fantastic guest. Now, you have seen this guest on such wonderful programs as The Bituation Room with Francesca Fiorentini. You have seen him on worst shows like Pierce Morgan. You have also seen him or heard him on his brand new podcast, the Muslim and a Jew walk into a podcast podcast. Ladies and gentlemen and everyone else, welcome to the pod, Wajahat Ali.

What's up, bro? Shalom alaikum. I love me some bad Jews. Hell yeah. The less better halves of Francesco, well done. How dare you? I am the less better half. We both married up.

We know it. We're grateful. Yeah, we know. Yeah, this is the thing. Like, you know, if you're going to, if you're going to marry someone, you got to make sure that they're better in you, better than you in every single way. And Francesca is all of those things. You know, if, you know, you like me because I'm funny, she's funnier.

If you like me because I'm pretty, she's prettier. If you like me because I'm Jewish, she's not more Jewish, but you know what I mean. You win. On the Jew tip, you win. I mean, I don't know. She is half Italian and half Chinese, which is functionally Jewish. and so I feel like she's basically that so even in that sense she wins

she's great what do you all do on Christmas because half of her and all of you are like eh no only half of me is like eh the other half of me loves Christmas so because I'm only half Jewish I do not know that yeah and here's the thing I feel like being half Jewish or just being Jewish means you actually secretly love Christmas, but you don't get to. Whereas like in my family,

we got to celebrate it. So it's almost like I'm living every, every Jewish person's dream of celebrating, celebrating. You're like, you're like Blade. You're like the daywalker. That's exactly, right. Because we never had Christmas trees. We're like, it'd be so much fun. And my mom, like, at the age of five is like, yes, is all crap. This is bullshit. This is what I'm saying. I feel like that is exactly like everyone who doesn't come from. a family that celebrates christmas because of you know uh another religion or another culture they're all just like damn man seems like christmas kind of rules and you know what it does it's pretty i'm glad another thing my my kids are like we have we we both also are uh parents of young children

and in your child will be lucky um because in addition to white skin uh with some asianness which is very exotic uh they will also have christmas trees and my children have asked me how come we don't have Christmas trees? And I'm slightly, I feel like I'm a bad Muslim parent. I'm like, maybe I should give them the tree. Because I'll be honest.

It seemed fun. All you kids who have the trees in the presents, it seemed fun. It's great. Here's the thing. I don't know Christmas to be a religious holiday. It was actually later in life when I went over to a Catholic girlfriend's parents' house for Christmas one year. And I saw like,

a bunch of Jesus shit that I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what is, what's with all this Jesus crap around Christmas? It was very weird to me. For me, I feel like it's this beautiful secular holiday about commerce and capitalism. Yes, it's very American. Yeah, it's a one time a year where you can just throw, you know, Marxist praxis to the side and say, hey, today we're going to indulge in some just spending of money for the sake of buying products that, you know, were exploiting surplus labor.

You know what I mean? And Jesus becomes a good mascot for capitalism. And I have to say, I just thought about it right now, like you actually have been invested in your whole life in interfaith dating and Christian girls. And you married one. So you, anyone who accuses you of being a hater, I'm like, this man did it. Yes, yes.

You know, I am out here a living co. Exist Bumper sticker, you know? I don't put the ball. I live it. I don't need a bumper sticker. I don't need to. I am that sticker. It's me.

Look at my living, breathing child. Yeah, a Christian, a Jew, together at a, you know, at a, an Arab Islamic company like AJ Plus, we're out here. Paid by Cutter. Out here, just, you know, be in that co-exist sticker, bro. You can't tell me. I don't care about peace. I'm all about it.

our Chinese food on Christmas. That's right. 100%. But, Waj, thank you for coming on to Bad Hasbara. I've been so much looking forward to having you on this podcast because I have

been following you for a long time. And, you know, like with any guests I have on the show, usually one of the big reasons that I want to have you on is because I've noticed in the last eight months, you put yourself out

there as someone who is going to go against the grain of the giant imperial hegemon and decide to speak about Palestinian human rights and go on, you know, mainstream news programs and be the person who has to argue with some of the Israeli government's biggest psychopaths. So I'm excited to have you on to talk about some of your experiences, but I'd love to just get a background on you and where you come from and um you know where you come from in terms of this issue yeah no it's it's i have a very complex issue and i'm like so pleasantly surprised you invited me but i hope you don't get too many trolls you might and i'll go into that in a second and if they do just throw me under the bus uh yeah yeah francesca are good people um you know i grew up in the bay

area you're in the bay i left uh the bay a couple years ago because like like you i married up and my wife's actually a doctor, and she has a job and, like, health insurance. So I moved to the East Coast for my wife, but I was born and raised in a multi-racial, diverse Bay Area where I went to an all-boys Jesuit Catholic high school. I am Muslim folks. And that carpool where I went to that all-boy Jesuit Catholic high school was me, which I had to lead, the son of Pakistan Muslim immigrants, Alan Loggins, the son of Nigerian Christian immigrants, Brian Rothback,

the son of practicing conservative Jews, and Groff Singh, the practicing Hindu son of Indian immigrants. And, you know, first and foremost, we have to dispel this myth that, you know, Muslims and Jews, you know, we are born hating each other, you know, like the Jewish doctor slapped my butt and I'm like, I'll get you back. Yeah, you know, like my parents, and I know every family's different, but this is important for people who don't know, right? Like, my dad never sent me down. Betta, you are Muslim, you must hate the Jews, right?

In fact, our biggest fights, I joke about this, but this is true, our biggest fights, in that carpool were about which Star Trek was the best Star Trek series. I always need towards next generation. I think Brian the Jew went for the Deep Space 9. I respected in my older age. We played video games. And we were dorks who went to an all-boy Jesuit Catholic high school who couldn't

talk to girls, right? The friction, the friction point, I would say then and now, has always been Israel Palestine, specifically Israel's occupation of Palestinians. And if I may, if I may, for some of your audience members who

don't know but are afraid to ask you know it's a good question you're brown i see a lot of brown people like south asians and i see also indonesians like care about palestine like you're not arab why do you care which i think is a good question i mean so it's a good question if you're if you're really coming at it with patience yeah so if you take away the whole human rights thing okay right if you take away the whole occupation thing but like people are like why why Palestine, you know, why do you care as more sometimes than even Arabs, right? You'll see South Asians, right? What's the, if any, Muslim angle, right? And I think this is important. People don't know. What Jerusalem means to Muslims, right? For Muslims, for those who don't know,

we pray five times a day, a lot of prayers. We face the, the Ghibla, the direction of prayer is Saudi Arabia, modern day Saudi Arabia, and it's that black cube, Mecca. But the first direction of prayer for Muslims was actually Al-A-A-A-Masca in Jerusalem. People don't know that. Number two, there is this something called the night journey, the Prophet Muhammad took, where he went from Saudi Arabia to what Muslims referred to as

Haramashirif, which Jews referred to the Temple Mount, the Dome of the Rock, that beautiful dome. From there, he ascended to the heavens, right? A very powerful journey, and it said in Islam that he then led the prophets in prayer, right? The third reason I would say is that historical connection to Jerusalem. Muslims believe in Jesus.

as a prophet. And, you know, we had control, if you will, of Jerusalem, and there was the Crusades, and Salahadine, then re-took control. But, and this is really important, this story still permeates in a beautiful way. Salahadine, when he took back Jerusalem, he made it as a sanctuary for the three religions, the Abrahamic faiths, Jews, Muslims, and Christians. And even though it wasn't perfect, that is a big deal. You know, when we say Jews are cousins, we really mean that, like our monotheistic cousins. And the four. And the four, fourth reason is a majority of Palestinians, not all, are Muslim. And like the world, we have witnessed for the past 70 plus years the painful occupation and humiliation of our quote-unquote Muslim brethren, right? You combine all that. And the fifth one I'll say as as Americans, you know, you hear this sometimes with bad faith people, Matt, and I'm sure you get this. Why do you all care about Palestine? Why not Syria? Why not the Rohingya? Why not the Uyghurs? We should. And we do. the reason is when it comes to Israel we're told it is the only democracy in the Middle East right we are told it is the most moral army we know our money goes to pay for that occupation

right so you it's very hard to change Assad's mind folks yeah you know MBS is not a Democrat yeah we tried he doesn't listen South Arabia not a democracy but we feel in America maybe just maybe we can use whatever influence that we have to push the levers, to have the superpower called America, not give the keys to the drunken driver that is Israel and then, you know, sorry for that TED talk, but I hope that was, I hope that was useful. No, that was great. And I agree completely. I think it's, you know, like I said, it's, if you have the patience to answer a question like, why do you care? I think it's great to do so. Because there are some people who do ask that in good faith.

And I remember like being one of those people. I remember being someone who was always a little bit suspicious of why people cared so much about it. It's like, yeah, no, you know, I agree with you. There's a lot wrong, but like, why do you care, you know? And I found it to be, you know, something that was like, it was a way for me to, without saying it, kind of like stoke this inner paranoia I had about like, anti-Semitism. It must be for an anti-Semitic reason that you even care about this. And I think that, you know, over time, as I got to know more and more people who were Jews in

Palestine Solidarity Movement spaces, who cared about it and realized that I was giving them, I don't know, I was like allowing them to say all of the things that all of the critiques without questioning it because I wasn't worried that they just hated Jews. And then I was like, this is kind of unfair of me to not like extend the same faith towards other people who like, even if you had nothing to do with it, even if you're from somewhere where, you know, you're not from a country that like supports Israel. You're not from, you know, any of the three Abrahamic. Can I, is it Abrahamic? I'm going to say Abrahamic. Yeah, you can say. Uh, yeah, Half of you can say it.

Yes. Abrahamic religions or even if you have no connection to the issue, it's human rights or human rights. So it's like the idea that like you shouldn't care about this for, you know, X, Y, Z. I realized it was kind of just my way of being like, well, this way also I cannot care about this. I need people. You can deflect it. I can deflect it. I can kick this can down the road.

I can say it doesn't have anything to do with me. when, you know, the idea that the suffering of humans, you know, at the expense of my own tax dollars, you know, would have nothing to do with me is ridiculous on its face. But, you know, you bring up. That was a Haspera tactic, though. I mean, speaking about your show. Oh, 100%. Still is. It's like, well, you're not Arab.

So why do you care? Or this, you know, you're not Muslim. Why do you care? Right. And that type of lazy thinking really penetrated. I think American discourse, where I'm sure you kind of hear it a little less now, Matt, because we're a little bit older. But, you know, you heard some people say, oh, those guys will always hate each other. And they kind of use Arab and Muslim interchangeably.

Since they'll always hate each other from the beginning of time, there's no solutions. Let's go buy more shit. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I think I've seen that tactic used a lot of the times it's almost like an anti-black tactic in America. Because you see that being said a lot by people who are simultaneously posting a video of a black pro-Palestine activist on a campus and going like, you know, why does this person care? It has nothing to do with them. It's like it's a way to, you know, without saying it, be like, this is an A-B conversation. Can you see your way out of it? You know what I mean? Like it's a way of. trying to make people feel foolish for giving a shit when it is I think well within anyone's right to look at something and go like this this is bad especially like you know when you see

something that is apartheid and you know I can't speak as obviously a black American or a black person in the world but like if you see apartheid going on you go like oh that that reminds me of apartheid. That apartheid looks like apartheid. And, uh, you know, if you're, um, a Muslim and, uh, or an Arab and you see what is clearly this, uh, ethnic cleansing going on, like, how can you not expect them to, like, I wouldn't, I, the expectation that you would somehow be like, oh, I don't care about that stuff is, is a ridiculous expectation in my opinion. Well, also, you know, and it connects to us because you might be wondering, well, okay, you're American. You're a son of Pakistani immigrants.

You're not Arab. You're not Palestinian. You don't have family there. Well, how does it affect you? And in this journey, I remember I was at UC Berkeley. And I was part of the Muslim Student Association. I was elected to the board of the Muslim Students Association. The year was 2001.

My timing was exquisite. Yeah, that's a great year. Yeah, thank you. Perfect timing. I'm about to turn 21. And I can tell you, because it coincided with the failed war and terror and also the second intifada. It didn't matter.

This is the thing that's important. It doesn't matter. They lump us all together. It didn't matter that I was not Palestinian. If you advocate for Palestinian rights in some way, if you are in some way, shape, or form critical of Israel, and you just happen to be brown-skinned and Muslim, even now you see it, like Ali Valshi, Mehdi Hassan,

what do they get called? Hamas. What do I get called, Hamas? You know, Judge Manji, Pakistani-American, highly qualified judge, who would have been the first Muslim judge on the appellate court nominated by Biden, his nomination is most likely sunk Matt.

Why? Because Senator Tom Khan, along with some bad hospera, had smeared him as a result of what's happening in the Gaza war, and then two Democratic senators from Nevada have jumped on, even though the Jewish groups, the Zionist Jewish groups, have given him like an A rating, it doesn't matter. So that's where I realized, yeah, yeah, even AJC and ADF, they're like, no, no, no, no, this one's good.

they're like no no no it doesn't matter so that's right ilhan omer not arab doesn't matter they call it hamas right scott jenning said on cnn and so that's where we kind of learned early on at that time that if you especially are muslim and brown skin and arab they can easily easily as dismiss you as terrorist hamas hezbollah isis and antisemitic by default and antisemitic by default it just you see it all the time and and i think that's like one of the things that pisses me off the most is this like how easy it is to smear someone who is Arab or just basically anyone who is not Jewish and a person of color is so easily smeared. It is just accepted that they are anti-Semitic if one of these like pro-Israel organizations or one of these like troll accounts like

stop antisemitism.org calls them anti-Semitic. People just go, yeah, that makes sense to me. It's just this, you know, this type of racism that exists in which you are going to basically take an entire people and say that, well, their morals by default are worse than mine. So the fact that they would be anti-Semitic makes sense to me. Of course they're Nazis. Of course they hate Jews. Oh, you know, you know, people talk about whenever there's a black Palestinian solidarity activist. you know, people will bring up Farrakhan, you know, for no fucking reason. They'll just, it's just this automatic assumption that there are these communities of people of color who just like the baseline is hatred of Jews.

And I always find that really hilarious because it is clearly coming from people who did not grow up around a lot of people of color. I'll tell you, someone who is born and raised in Los Angeles, they don't know. you're Jewish. They just think you're some white guy. Like, this idea of the, uh, the fear of people who are not identifiably Jewish, like, unless you are someone who is, uh, you know, a Hasidic Jew and you are wearing, uh, what are people would consider stereotypically Jewish clothing. Um, or Kippa, right, yeah. Yeah, even that, but you know, there are, it's like there, there's a lot of expectation that people have that people just can tell when someone is Jewish based on nothing

but like physiognomy, which is like this weird kind of race science that we superimpose onto other people. Like, oh, certainly they're looking at my nose size and wondering if I am Jewish. Like, that kind of shit, like, it drives me crazy because I'm just like you're living in this fantasy world in which there are people, you know, in big cities, like people of color just going around trying to tell who's a Jew and who's not a Jew. It's fucking, it's just, it's absurd. It's not the case for the vast majority of people. Now, you know, I can't speak to anything but my own experience. You know, there are people obviously in, you know, living born and raised New York who might have a different experience or born and raised in a small white town and being

the only Jewish person. Sure, maybe there are fucking crypto-Nazis out there who are trying to figure out who the Jew is. But I just feel like we do this thing where we just automatically assume, or at least Zionists count on people automatically assuming that people of color, especially Arabs and especially Muslims, are just automatically anti-Semitic. And also, I'm glad you mentioned black people because that was a smear also, you know, oh, Lewis Farrakhan. And, you know, speaking about bad hospera, which used to be successful hospera, still bad, and has evolved and is a bit more dangerous. Two points to that, you It used to be if you were a brown, skinned or black, Arab or Muslim, kind of lumped us all together, and then you would have to play the condemn-a-thon game.

You have to condemn Hamas. You have to condemn Paracan. I still do. But now it's evolved into something which, you know, I talked to some Jewish friends of mine who I think they would probably consider themselves Zionist or pro-Israel, but hate the war, you know, or progress and yada. You know, I said, listen, I've seen a new tactic that some of these groups have taken to silence criticism. And you are calling Jews, Capo, you're calling Jews, hum, un-Jew, you are excommunicating and Thakfiring Jews who are taking part in this protest, who are critical of this war.

As a Muslim, as a person who's seen where excommunication has like to terrible things, and Thakfirism, I'd like to terrible things. Knowing the numbers, there's only 16 million of you. This is not good for the Jews. Please don't do this. 100%. Yeah. Please do not like Thakfir and excommunicate Jews are critical.

of this war and call them unjews or hamas jews this one and one well for you but you could tell because people have lost their minds then now the splintering is well we don't want you matt lee and jvp what you agree with them or not we don't want you and oh those jews are saying not our name we don't want you you go join hamas you go join the rest of you i'm like there's 16 million of you there's a white rise of white supremacy there's a rise of anti-semitism as a muslim looking on the outside please don't do this right it's it's completely like absurd and dangerous and you know it it kind of leads me to the same conclusion that a lot of like Israeli as far as led me is when it comes to the general safety of Jews not in Israel um the idea

seems to be um you know we can roll the dice with them we can do things like paint all Jews with a broad brush and say that we're all pro this you know genocide going on uh you know we're Which, listen, if you're living in the Jewish state, you know, with nuclear weapons and whatnot, maybe, you know, you feel confident, you feel cocky about, you know, doing this. But if you are a Jew anywhere else in the world in which you are a, you know, minority, a vast minority, a small minority, you know, that is not good for us when you are saying, oh, yeah, no, we are all, you know, a monolith and we all agree with this and it seems to be something where they don't care and they don't even care about like uh yeah like unjewing people or excommunicating them or calling

them traitors uh you know it's like uh or equating all jews with israel and israel's actions i'm like this is not good which is antisemitic by any definition uh including their own and it's it's why it's like you know i mean the thing about this podcast is you know we end up talking about a lot of these points over and over again, but I will reiterate, it is fucking insane that in one breath they can say equating all Jews with Israel is anti-Semitic, which is correct, and then say also anti-Sionism is anti-Semitism. It's just like, you're fucking crazy. You are doing anti-Semitism because by definition, anti-Semitism is being anti-Jewish, right,

if we're talking about the definition of it. And to say that the criticism of Israel is anti-Jewish is then conflating Jews and Israel. And that is anti-Semitic by your very own definition. So we just have to live with this constant gaslighting. And, you know, I was like, hey, someone should start a podcast about it. But you know what? We were talking this right before you hit record. We're at that certain age where this type of hospital and this type of talking points were used to neuter and disarm.

any good faith critics of Israel right like my my for better and for worse for some of your viewers they know my history like I have put myself out there for better and for worse interfaith engagement this and that I've taken the hits a lot of people dislike me but I've done

my best to speak out on all my public platforms about the rise of anti-Semitism the rise of Islamophobia anti-black racism trying to warn people like a brown Cassandra about Trumpism about the rise of white supremacy about the intersection of these hate. I said he won't leave. I said the Republican Party would be

corrupted. I said by 2024 white nationalist talking points would go mainstream. All the people who get paid to be wrong about everything laughed and said, ha ha ha, you're wrong. And at the beginning of this war, that has gone on for eight months now, has claimed at least 36,000 numbers are going to be higher Palestinian lives, where more children, Palestinian children, have been killed by Israel. The past eight months, more kids have been killed than in any other war of the past two years combined folks. Yeah. And you sit there and I say,

studying this, working on this issue, I can tell you that the two groups who will be the most effed, Jews, Arabs and Muslims, voila spike in anti-Semitism, spike in Islamophobia and anti-Arab bigotry both here in Europe. And bad faith actors, white supremacists,

are playing a divide and conquer here. And then you got, you know, pro-Israel Jews who are like, you know who I want to unite with? I won't unite with Wage or Matt, even though we might disagree on this issue, I will unite with Mike Johnson and white Christian nationalists who openly hate Jews. I will unite with Donald Trump, who dined with Nick Fuentes. This is how Jews will be safe. Yes, exactly. It is, it's this idea that like, I mean, it just shows

where people's like priorities are in terms of Jewish safety. It's like this part of the cult like whole that Zionism seems to have on people. is that they are just utterly convinced that the safety of Jews is tied inherently to the existence and perpetuation of the Zionist Project and Israel. And that means supporting that state no matter what they do. Because at the end of the day, to not support it is to wish for the ethnic cleansing of Jews from that area, which is, you know, which is... You're right. That's what they've told me.

I mean, you're not exaggerating. When you go to Israel and talk to some folks, they said that. They said that, I won't mention his name, but a writer said, Israel is the Jews' last gamble. And we've put all our eggs in Israel, and if Israel falls over. Yeah, right. And which is completely like, that is, I'm sorry, but that's death cult thinking. The idea that Jews only hope for survival is upholding an apartheid state, or worse, a state that is a state that is going to genocide and ethnically cleanse the five million Arabs in the West Bank in Gaza.

Like, that's our only hope. And for that to be a sentence that a liberal person would want to say out loud, like you need to have this kind of cult-like thinking of like, well, it's either that or we're all done, all Jews of the world. That's the only way you can make it morally make sense to you. And I watch people play that game, and I'm just like, you know, I don't know, man. I think about like fucking Jim Jones, and I'm just like, at the point at which the guy with the gun is saying you have to drink the Kool-Aid, don't you get a little suspicious that

maybe you're not all going to on a trip to heaven together? You know what I mean? Like at the point at which you're like being threatened to believe something that is going to actively hurt you, I'd start questioning. stuff. I'd start going like, why do I have to die? You know, or like, why do I have to drink the Kool-Aid? Why do I have to believe in, you know,

the by any means destruction of 5 million Arabs? Like, it seems to me like you desperately want me to believe this. And I'm going to start being cynical. I think you touched upon it. I think you touched upon it, you know, having engaged with these folks, talk to these folks

reported on it, it's a zero-sum mindset that comes not just from trauma, but a large part of it is trauma. and you know anti-semitism exists and Europe helped facilitate it and Jews have been in a diaspora and they're like now we have Israel and for those who have somewhat of a religious bent on it if God didn't want us to return this these miracles would not have happened 48 would not have happened 67 would not have happened this means that you know God is favoring us or else why would this happen you know and we and we got it back and look what's happening in Europe and look

in America and there's Hezbollah and there's Hamas and if we don't have this it's over for us so we have to keep this all or nothing we can't give an inch we can't give an inch of land an inch of hummus an inch of language an inch of history because they'll come in and take everything we've already given too much it's us versus them and that mindset has produced a type of i'll say this i said this on pierce morgan with the current israeli government i've talked about the government a type of general psychopathy yes rationalize apartheid you rationalize ethnic cleansing You rationalize genocidal activities. And then I try to be a pragmatist.

I said, let's play this out. Okay, let's suppose Ben Gavir. I'm sure your listeners know who Ben Gavir is, National Security Minister, a man who was convicted by his own government for inciting violence, folks, National Security Minister of Israel, a Smotrich, by his own words, a Jewish fascist, his words not mine. Let's say, okay, you get to, quote, resettle the land. You kick out magically the Palestinians, which means ethnic cleansing.

kick him out to Egypt, you kick them out to Lebanon, Jordan. They're all Arabs. Arabs will take them back. I'm using their language. Now they have magically disappeared through force and violence, ethnic cleansing. You have settled Gaza. You're going to continue expanding the settlements in the West Bank. There's no excuse for it because you say Hamas, Hamas, Hamas doesn't even control the West Bank,

but we know you want the land. You got it. River to the sea. You have created settlements. Tell me Matt. And this is me saying this as a humanist who once safe. for all people. Yeah.

Are Jews and Israelis safer? Yeah. No, they are not. And it's because their ideology, to me, the ideology is unsustainable in terms of, I mean, just human, the general consensus of human morality, because if the ideology relies on the idea that we are, um, uh, Jews are under existential threat and therefore must commit these, uh, heinous atrocities. Um, I'll tell you the rest of the world does not believe that. And the rest of the world looks at that and goes like, you guys seem like very much the bad guys here.

And that does not, are we the baddies? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Everyone, the general consensus is that, uh, Israelis are the baddies. And, you know, it, if, this continues on, more and more people are just, they're just going to say Jews are the baddies. And that is something that I, you know, I've seen happen. I'd never deny the, you know, ignorant anti-Semitism that comes out of people who are just traumatized by seeing this shit over and over again and being told that they're not only supposed to, you know, ignore it, but they're supposed to like it. You know, and so I look at this. I go, guys, this is bad for the Jews because there is no end there's because what what happens after the ethnic cleansing

of Gaza after the ethnic cleansing of Gaza what do you you you have you have the West Bank the continued settlements there eventual ethnic cleansing of that you know kicking all those yeah and then Jerusalem and then you have the you know Arab Israelis the Palestinians within the 48 borders and if the entire project hinges on a demographic majority being sustained of Jews in, you know, it must be, you know, more Jews than Arabs. This is going to be a problem because of the fact that you are now looking at birth rates. You are now doing what white nationalists do in America, which is like, which is being weirdly, raciously natalist, where all of a sudden you are like, you know, making sure that Arabs don't have too many kids.

You are restricting the freedom of movement for Arabs. You are restricting how many, you know, kids they can have, how many of their family members from other countries can visit. You start restricting immigration. You start restricting who can go on vacation. It turns into this authoritarian, fascist state pretty quickly, not to say it isn't now, but that is unsustainable. we cannot we cannot have that uh and have people just and not expect uh you know retribution one way

or another from that's the case that it's escalation and retribution and consequences and you're talking about costs and and you know i want to talk about the two costs first the security cost Hezbollah is in Lebanon so now you're going to attack Hezbollah okay suppose you destroy Hezbollah Israel tried to destroy PLO in the early 80s in Lebanon. Late to waste, Lebanon, PLO got weakened. What came in its place, Hezbollah? That's right. What do they decide to bank on Hamas?

So as long as people are occupied, people resist that occupation. That's right. What do you think they'll do after a genocide? Yes. And what do they'll do when people, bad faith actors, extremists, use religion to justify violence. And white supremacists use anti-Semitism, justify violence. Jews will be a target wherever they go. and Israel will be a target.

So now you have ruined what little security you had by quote, redeeming the land. I'm using the language of settlers. Now, speak about the other cost that you and I, I think, care about. The moral cost, the religious cost. When you make the, I use this analogy in the Atlantic article, I said, my fear was settlers and the extremists

that we've talked about have made the land into a golden calf. And I think that was a very just, that was like, Ooh, a dagger in the heart for people who know, you know, history. 100%. And I said, you know, and I came to this conclusion. I tried to lay out my case where the redemption of the land will come at the cost of morality, ethics, humanity, human rights, and even Judaism. Yeah.

You'll get the land, but at what cost? And of course, the crushing and humiliation of the Palestinian people. And I will say, you know, most people go back to 67. But the 48, you know, why is it called the Nakhpah? Why do Palestinians call it the great catastrophe? Because the realization, Matt, and I'm now speaking to Jews who you might have that affinity towards Israel, that majority do. The realization of this dream, this nation state, you have to admit now. I think you have to concede has come at the expense and shattering and humiliation of the Palestinian people.

right and you have to reconcile that and i think that lack of reconciliation matt is what brings about these mental and moral gymnastics that some of our friends i'm sure some of our family members the like the rubber hits the road at the end of the day right you can't ignore them your future is tied with them yes i know and uh you know as much as uh you know as they will um you know so easily write you off as like, you know, oh, well, you know, you're a traitor or a self-hater or a fake Jew, whatnot. You know, I look at them and I go, like, guys, we do need each other.

And so part of needing each other is, you know, maybe like taking a step back for a second and realizing that the entity or the way of thought or ideology that, is trying to separate and break up families sounds a lot like maybe the mental prison, you know, maybe it's the cult. Like I've called it before, I've called it Zionology because they share so many similar traits in terms of like cult-like behavior, both in the, you know, the way that they do split up families and also in the way that they have a really shiny PR and they really love to make high quality sexy videos to get people really into the idea that their ideology is

good. Sir, that is why they pay you the big money for that brilliant segue. That's right. That's a Lawrence of Arabia segue there. Oh, yeah, baby. I, yeah, let me tell you, this is a 33rd episode of this podcast, and at this point, I'm a fucking professional. And we will get into some wonderful bad has barra. But first, let's take a quick commercial break. And then we will be right back. Okay, we're back. I am here with Wajahat Ali. How you doing, baby?

I am doing good. And, you know, the timing of this particular podcast is exquisite. And to do my part, to stitch together your exquisite. segue, that news dropped right at the perfect time of Hasbara. And, you know, I wish we could unpack why we think it's bad, because we're old enough, Matt, for the young bucks. Yes. That Israeli Hasbara used to be polished, a hundred percent, slick, hidden, and very effective. Yes. That shit is not working right now. A hundred percent. Yeah, it was one of the things that, you know, I think for me really, um, like, uh, spurred me on to,

do this podcast is because there was a time in which you in which it was a lot harder to explain to people what Israel was about and what Zionism was really about. And the reason it was hard to explain to people is because they had such a good PR strategy of being like they would take all your like liberal Western liberal morality and show you a thousand different examples of Israelis reflecting that you know those values and so you know and then they would play on your Islamophobia and they'd be like well as you know you know there's not an Arab in the world who enjoys gay people as you know Arabs hate women as you know and and so it was like you were dealing with a lot of Sam Harrisites who just had this like blanket Islamophobia

you know, wrapped in sort of this intellectualized, you know, racism where you go like, you know, I'm not making a judgment either way. I'm just saying that they, that, you know, Arabs and Muslims are inherently. Barbarians. Exactly. Inherently savages. The Billimar, Sam Harris, liberals. Yes.

And so there was a time in which, like, the contrast between, like, the PR and the reality, wasn't so insanely apparent you know so you know what changed I think is that recently and I don't know what it is um but the Hasbara button in people's brain is broken like the the way in which Israel the Israeli government has just trotted out these paid Hasbaris you know these like like the deputy mayor of Jerusalem or Alon led Revy, RIP, I just crossed myself. He didn't last long.

He was, how many scaramuchis did the levy last? Yeah, I mean, a few scaramuches, but only like three, you know? I mean, that's a really good example, because with Levy, right, you know, I had this conversation with a few other friends that you might know, so I don't want to name them, get them in trouble. But we were like, this guy sucks. Like when we're like, we were like, we were like, in all seriousness, like, yo, Israel, what happened, man?

Like, you used to trot out slick dudes. 100%. This guy sucks. I mean, this is your country's representative to Hasbara during a very unpopular war. Whoa. Yeah. And, and, you know, I think it's this, my only guess has been that they've been lying with impunity for so long that they created sort of like a bubble-like reality in which everyone kind of just naturally agrees with whatever crazy shit they're going to say. And so it's like they haven't had a chance to train in a while, you know, they haven't had an honest Western media to hold them accountable for decades so that when something like this happens, you know, they have to like sit there and say, you know, listen, of course we care about, you know, the deaths of children and whatnot.

But, you know, if Hamas is, is somewhere near there, sometimes it's okay to kill some children. And also, what if those children become terrorists? You're just like, whoa, what the fuck did you just say? And they say it just like that thinking that they'll get no clapback. Right. No one's going to, because they were never held accountable. On morning Joe, Joe just sat there and nodded his head. Like, yes.

Yeah. And, you know, you see it now more and more. You know, the, I think ultimate example is always peers Morgan, right? Because, like, Pierce Morgan is someone who is, like, I think, you know, internally, like, his, the inner workings of his brain are a mystery to me. But my assumption is that he would, if he had the chance, he would, like, have a cup of tea with Hitler. He would say, well, listen, I don't agree with you.

But he wouldn't want people to cancel him. You know what I mean? He would be like, someone to cancel. People always ask for him. me this because I've gone on Pierce Show several times he's invited me. Yeah. People always ask me every appearance. We don't understand. Sometimes he berates

the Palestinian gets. Other times he makes you condemn Hamas. Then all of a sudden when you're with this deputy mayor of Jerusalem, Fleur Hassan Nahum, we can talk about her in a second. That was a couple of days ago. All of a sudden he grills her. And I always tell people, Pierce Morgan believes in Pierce Morgan.

That's right. If you understand that, you will understand what he's done in the past eight months. And to his credit, he jumped on the bandwagon and realized there was an audience that wanted to hear a Palestinian perspective. And he goes, it's not going to happen in corporate media. I'll invite both. Sometimes they'll crap on me and shit on me and I'll take it. Sometimes I'll show them. But hey, look at the ratings. Look at the clicks. So that's Pierce Morgan folks. That is, that's exactly what I've been told by multiple people about him. It's just in general, he is someone who likes to, you know, whatever gets the most clicks, he will shake the aunt,

he'll make everyone fight. That's his shit. He's, you know, he's a shill. He's just at the end of the day, what he wants is, is the views. But you, the fact that you are seeing now more and more people realizing, at the very least, that the Israeli PR department is insulting their intelligence to their face. Like, for people who have egos, like Pierce Morgan, they are like, well no that's a bridge too far you have to get at the very least give me a convincing argument um and uh yeah it's it's been you know interesting to watch it goes to what my my theory on this i'm reading dune for the first time i know i'm a bad nerd but uh there was i'm like 450 pages in and there's just there's a scene where princess erulun uh she's recording in her diaries

and she talks about the like the family of atreides right this this this this this noble family and the world that they had in Caledan, their original home planet, right? And she was like, oh, they had these beautiful waterfalls and these beautiful palaces and they were awash and all this beauty. But they had to contend

with their sad reality that often all people do is that every time you get pleasure and peace, you also become lazy. And you become soft. What happened with Israel is they became so right-wing, they became so incestuous,

in these intellectual systems right and even that community where they weren't pushed right they're like oh we don't we're not challenged anymore right kind of ossified and i don't think they were ready for this moment matt with tic talk with instagram with palestinian accounts with the youth who literally called them all their bullshit and so what they used to do is they used to take out apak talking points from the second intifada literally just blow dust off them yeah and like say oh we can appear on msnbc and i think the past 10 years especially with what's happening in Gaza, I would say it's, I would say, I would track it, Matt, to 2008, 2009 Operation Castlet.

That to me is a turning point. The past 15, 16 years. Each time they do something in Gaza, it's not the first time, folks, you see a crack, a crack, a crack. And more and more people, and even Jews now, always say this, you know, for the pro-Palestinian movement, if you can call it that, they got a tip their hat to Jews. A lot of Jews who came around and they're like, yeah, not my name. And Jews coming out.

you know with Palestinians or people people of color it really throws off that argument that all these people are anti-Semitic and I think they got like you know it's like it's like Ronda Rousey she walks in confident and she thinks she can just like box with Amanda Nunez and Nunez goes nope I've been preparing for this first round pow yeah and they're just stumbling around

and you see Elon Levy stumbling and Fleur Hassanahom and for those who saw that clip which went viral you know Flore Hassan Nahum is the deputy mayor of Jerusalem. She is the polished, civilized, feminine, you know, with a nice accent, doesn't raise her voice, sane version that they sent out. And you saw her say, I mean, she was on with me, and I said this on Pierce Morgan, I'll say it on your show. I said this to her face. Yeah. You know, Pierce, sometimes when you bring me on, I realize my job is just to stay quiet because these Israeli

representatives don't realize how genocidal and insane they sound to a global audience. So I win by staying quiet and letting them just speak and letting people hear them and they do more damage to their cause than I could ever do. I think I said that almost verbatim on

camera for the first time ever. And she proved me right. Yes, 100%. And I have a clip of that that I want to play and you know, I'm going to be skipping around because it is a long clip but in to set it up um pierce is uh asking the deputy mayor of jerusalem a question that he is you know asked before and this is one of the clips we played on an earlier episode where he's

asking uh another person in um the office of the prime minister's PR department um you know if you know how many hamas quote unquote have been killed um how come you have that number but you say you don't know how many civilians have been killed and this is a question that he once again puts to someone who is supposed to be doing PR

for them and they still can't answer this fucking question. It blows his mind he's like even more mad about it than he was last time because he's like, come on guys, I gave you time and so I have a clip of that right here. We have, I would say potentially around 23, because that's what the UN has said, 22,000.

You have no idea? Let's not start with this line of questioning. Actually, I'm going to start on the line of questioning. I don't think, no, I don't think Churchill knew in the middle of the Second World War how many Germans he'd killed. And so this is a farcical question. What I can tell you is a... You just gave me a number, but you've no idea why you've got that number.

The UN says, according to the so-called Gaza Health Ministry, let's take their number. The mistaken, corrected number of the Gaza so-called health ministry, all terrorists underground. hiding like cowards. But let's say now they're saying 22,000. We know we've killed 14,000 terrorists. No, you don't. Now you tell me, yes, we do. Yes, we do. So you tell me, no, I'm sorry, I'm not having that. I pressed, I pressed, I pressed the Israeli, hang on, we know how many brigades we've gone rid of, we know how many brigades, I'm going to

respond to you. I did put this, I put this to an Israeli government spokesman. I asked him how many Hamas have you killed and he gave me this figure. And I said, How many civilians have you killed, and he had no idea. I said, well, then, how can you be so precise of how many terrorists you've killed? You can't. If you've got no idea how many civilians you've killed, why should I believe a word about the numbers of Tabas? So just to be clear, just to be clear, you know exactly how many terrorists you killed, but you have no idea how many civilians. We estimate, absolutely.

We estimate that there's about 14, 13, 14,000 terrorists, which we've gotten rid of. We know how many are left. There's four brigades, and that's why we're in Rafa. And how many civilians have you killed? Again, Pierce, in the middle of the Second World War, I don't think you could have pushed church. Wow, you're doing it as well. Sorry, Flirt. That was pure. That was pure. I could tell you, that was very pure of him.

I think he, as you were mentioning, I think there comes a point where even appears Morgan, who's not a stupid man, is like you're, you're trying to gaslight me on my show. And I'm done. Yes. Yes. That wow was this like, he can't. believe that people at this point that Israeli PR people are still not going to give it to him straight. The thing is, he doesn't care if it's a lie. Just make something up. His whole thing has been from the beginning, like, I'm going to play devil's advocate and then repeating Hasbarah lies to whatever pro-Palestinian guest he has. In this case, he is just like, I don't even have a good lie to tell people when I'm arguing in bad faith with a pro like I want to argue with wash about why he's

bad and you're not going to give me any ammunition for it so it's almost like you're going to lie to my face and you're going to lie to everyone and I've given you another chance and you go back and you come back to world war the most devastating war where so many people died Germans apparently because Palestinian I said that in the next clip I said you you you've compared Palestinians to basically Nazis and if you could see my face and this is a you know sometimes people I've gone this question a lot actually in the last two days since that clip came out uh how could you be so calm good for you watch compliment like i would you know and i tell people look this ain't my first rodeo yeah unfortunately being of this brown skin and being muslim and being outspoken after

9-11 uh you me francesca our inbox is a it's a cesspool like the worst of humanity that doesn't mean you have to accept it but you you have to develop tough skin but of course it's also a choice there's a disposition i don't get that angry uh just my disposition, but also you can choose to be Daffy Duck or Bugs Bunny. And I can tell you, Matt, when you're brown skin or Muslim or if you're a Jew who advocates for Palestinians, they expect you to be angry and crazy and rabid. And that show wants you to be at Jerry Springer. I go the opposite route.

I know I'm not going to speak that much. I know the crazy Israeli person is going to speak over me. They always do. But if I can smile and keep my calm and keep my cool, that's already a win. And sometimes when your opponent is dragging themselves and literally, literally tying the noose around your neck. This is for anyone who debates or wants to debate. You let them, folks.

You don't have to interject. If they're digging their own grain, let them. And if you could see my face, I was smiling. I would have eaten some popcorn. There is a period where she says so many egregiously horrible things. I think involuntarily, I do like this. Your eyes start twitching out. You'll see me just going like, wow, with a smile.

And I wasn't even realizing I was doing it. I think that was my visceral response. Yeah, I have some more of that clip. I want to play a view. No idea how many civilians. This is my problem with when I get into numbers with the Israeli side, is that they seem to be utterly emphatic in their knowledge of how many terrorists they're killing, but no idea how many civilians and almost don't care.

It's the fog of war. Churchill didn't count. It's not that they almost don't care, Pierce. It's that they don't care. And we know that the number is probably higher than 36,000 people killed. You and I have eyes. The world has eyes. We have seen Ruffa get bombed. We have seen the charred bodies.

We have seen Israel bomb churches, mosques, refugee camps. We have seen Israel kill the staff of World Central Kitchen and then say, oops. We have seen Israel occupy Palestinians in the West Bank. But to you, every Palestinian is a terrorist. You don't care about the women. You don't care about the children. You don't care about the majority of people that have been killed are civilians. To you, it's all terrorists.

Let him finish his point. First of all, well, he listened to you, so let him speak. So what I say is she represents the general psychopathy of the Israeli government where they come on television and they think the rest of the world actually is like them that they don't see Palestinians as humans and they say these talking points. And peers, sometimes when you invite me a debate, I sit here and go, I don't have to say a word because they're undermining themselves and their own cause in front of the global stage right now. I think that is just such a, it's such a great point, you know, this idea of they have gotten so confident that they just don't believe we have eyes, where they just think that like they can tell us not to believe our own eyes and we'll go, I don't know, I guess so. I mean, maybe I'm not smart enough to look at things and judge for myself.

And, you know, it is amazing. I think it's a great tactic, a great anti-Hasbarat tactic, to just let the PR people of Zionism just dig their own metaphorical grave. You know, just let them speak because they get into this, like, this, like, sociopathic type thinking really fast, where all of a sudden, like, there's just a level of uncaring that they've, it's like completely mask off where, you know, children, dead children are involved. Very quickly, it's mask off.

And I think, you know, you get to that point within like five minutes. Yeah. And they really, some, all these spokespeople that have come on on, on Pyrr's show, people people always say, well, Piers, how come you're bringing on the most crazy Israeli, you know, spokespeople? I'm like, this is who they are. They have shown you. The masks are off, the hoods are off.

They don't care. They don't care. Because we've come to a point now where if this was November met, I would say, okay, Israel, I get it, has to strike back. This is eight months on. Right. You know, one and a half million people are displaced. We saw with our own eyes that these poor Palestinians who were displaced in Gaza, that's why they went to the south, there's nowhere to go in the north, and thought they were safe.

Israel IDF admits they dropped a bomb. He'll two, some low, whatever, middle-level Hamas agents who probably just got replaced the next day. And we saw charred bodies and we saw the images of the kids sitting next to the charred bodies of their parents. And you go in front of a global stage and say, oops. And the global stage now is saying, why? Like, how? How does this make you safer, right? And they think everyone just like them does not see Palestinians as humans.

Right. And you're seeing a global movement say enough. and what we've seen in our lifetime is Europe. Even Europe's moving away from America. Like Europe, like, you know, remember two weeks ago was Norway, Spain and Ireland, very deliberately at the same time,

said we recognize the Palestinian state. That's right. And you're seeing Belgium move away. You're seeing France be more critical. You're seeing Germany even. You see Maldives. Even though I don't agree with it, Maldives. Like, you got an Israeli passport. We can't enjoy our beaches. And going back to our central point, because I'm not a psychopath, because I'm not genocidal,

I don't want to see anyone killed over land because I'm not insane how does this if you can't bring yourself to care about Palestinians Arabs Muslims how does this help Israeli Jews Right yeah it's it's really

based on a belief in the idea of statism the idea an antiquated belief about the power of a state and the power of nationalism and whatever good can come from nationalism is somehow the most safe a people can be. This idea of self-determination being tied to this 19th century colonial thinking about nation states

as the only way to ensure, you know, the safety of a people. And it's just like, it's weird that there's not anyone who has stepped back for a second and gone like, well, what are we tying this belief to? Like, what is it about nations that we find to be inherently indestructible? It's completely a historical. nations do come and go and borders change and like the idea that like somehow the Jewish nation specifically you know a one in which there is a legal apartheid that's no national estate what's that yeah and that no national estate yeah will be the only thing

that can protect the Jewish people, I mean, it's just like, bro, like, if there's one thing I learned growing up from reading out the history of the Holocaust is that trying to do ethno-nationalism and, you know, an ethno-nationalist state is bad for a multitude of reasons, genocide being one of them, and also world reaction on the other. Like, you know, so it's just like, You are watching people who are so bought into this idea of Jewish safety being tied to this, you know, to this Jewish state, specifically in its current form of government, that they are not willing to even like take a step back and look at how their own thinking is just so old, antiquated, imperialistic, colonialists, like all the words. It's self-destructive, self-destructive, because I'm going to make an assumption and put you on the record, and I'm going to assume, Matt, that you are not a self-loathing, self-destructive Jew who wants to bring about a genocide of your own people, vis-a-vis criticism of Israel and Zionism. That would be a safe assumption. It would be a safe assumption usually, but in this case, bro, I'm not, I'm just kidding. Yes, obviously. Yeah, of course. So you critique, you critique to make better, right? And you say something, which, a tweet of yours went viral was on point

it was a tweet only you or a Jewish critic of Israel could do I could never do where Israel's current actions you're like is making Hamas look good like people like you know let me take a second look at Hamas for a second and I knew that you weren't justifying Hamas's action but you're like this whole resistance

you know if if my people were being killed and Hamas says it's a resistance I mean what I took from it is Israel's actions are so inexcusable, so terrible right now, so genocidal, that it's even like bolstering Hamas. Yes, what I said specifically was that Israel has spent the last eight months doing everything they can possible to make the answer to do you condemn Hamas go from yes to, I don't know, man, I kind of get it. And, you know, like the the idea, humor for dark times. Yes, the idea not being like, you know, I get, you know, this is a lot of people painting it. It's like, oh, so you

You get it when they, you know, killed civilians at Nova Festival. I knew you weren't saying that. I knew you weren't saying that. Yeah. Well, right. I mean, you know, this idea that people were, you know, of course I knew we're going to take it in bad faith. But no, I think the point very much stands, which is just like, I have not seen a more concerted attempt on the Israeli government. They're so inept at Hasbara, which is explaining in Hebrew, their actions, that all I can be. At this point, it's just like when people initially were like, do you condemn Hamas, people, of course, were like, yeah, because they were talking about the specific actions of October 7th.

And now it's come to the point where people, you know, no matter how much you were told that is anti-Semitic to talk about context when it comes to Israel, Palestine, and even the creation of Hamas, people are starting to look at that context and they're going more and more like, it is. It's hard for me to continue saying all armed resistance is bad because, you know, at some point you paint yourself as so obviously the oppressor that I can't help but put myself in the shoes of one of these kids who watch their parents burn alive or one of these parents who is holding the headless body of their dead baby child. Like you make it impossible for people not to look at any resistance organization that exists, that's armed resistance, and go like, yeah, I kind of get it. I guess if it were me, I think I might join it, especially people who are puffing their chest online, you know, who, you know, behind anonymous accounts where they're just like,

I'd be in Hamas day one. And it's just like, okay, bro. But, you know, like you. Leave the cul-de-sac first, bro. Leave the call-de-law. Yeah, yeah. But you see people, you know, more and more, like, kind of doing the thing that people were accused of doing at the beginning right after October 7th, which was, you know, people were accused of celebrating Hamas when what was actually happening on the ground was pro-Palestinian activists were immediately, you know, as soon as the seventh happened, immediately immobilized because they knew what was coming next. We all knew that the reaction to this attack was going to be massive. just based on numbers alone

because we were like, you know, they have a rule about asymmetry in terms of their warfare. If you, for every one Israeli you kill, you know, they could either kill 20 or 100. Sometimes a thousand.

That's what happens in Gaza. That's what happens in Gaza. All the time happens in Gaza. And so we all knew that this was going to be bad. And we knew that this was going to be a lot of you know post 9-11 type thinking this kind of like just everyone shut your eyes and shut your ears dive into this war we're doing it and there's nothing you can do about it and um you know we all

especially i tried to warn i try to warn because i you know we protested the war on terror uh you know we're at uc berkeley we led the first protests and we were right about everything and we were demonized people forget you know we had no way to fight back at that time yeah called anti-american especially when we were Muslim or brown you were called terrorist but everything that we warned about, we were right. We said there will be blowback, there will be escalation. And what counterterrorism and Natsk experts have been saying since November, warning Israel, is that you will do the best recruitment for terrorists by engaging in this asymmetrical

warfare. You are helping them with your propaganda. Like you said, these dead kids who feel like they're stuck in a prison or a concentration camp. And we also want to tell people that Palestinians have overwhelmingly done peaceful resistance. But even like black folks in America, we take a knee. get shot. We do peaceful resistance. We get shot. We march. We get shot. So you're just telling us to die. Well, what happens if some people say, if the only option is death, no matter what I do,

then some people will say, I'm going to take out a few of you. Yeah. And, you know, and it's not sitting there saying, yes, yes, rah, rah, ra, terrorism. Of course not. It's counterterrorism expert saying, this is what has always happened. Yes. Yes. So this pattern will happen. Do you want Israel to be safe? End the occupation. Stop indiscriminately kill. killing civilians. And Israel says, nope, we're going to go, we're going to kill until 2025. Because we're hoping that Trump wins. And if Trump wins, we know we're going to get carte blanche. That's right. Which is why Nanyahu says we're going to go until the end of the year. Because that's your big gamble.

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And it's like you, you see it and, you know, not to get too much into the electoral politics thing, but it just nothing pisses me off more than watching Biden and Democrats think that they can work with these far-right fucking Israelis that the Israelis will do anything in their power to make it so that Trump is president

because they know that like when it comes to Israel and Trump they have their best shot at like completing any kind of ethnic cleansing or any kind of war so like you know if I'm a ghoulish fucking dem strategist. I'm early

on going, hey, just so you know, it's not going to be a popular position to be pro-genocide and also all the genocide years, they are actively pulling for you to fail.

So maybe let's rethink. So maybe we should have a bipartisan congressional letter inviting Netanyahu, one of the most hated politicians in the world. The ICC just wants the issue warrants as a war criminal to address U.S. Congress. Yes, exactly. Let's do that.

Yes, you would think, but no. But yeah, just, you know, in terms of the Hezbarra that, you know, I've seen, we've seen, and we talked about, you know, kind of the way in which it used to be good and used to be shiny, I want to play something that I got a few, I don't know, a few weeks back, and I've been waiting to play this on the show and just trying to find a moment. And this is just something that in terms of looking at Israeli Hasbara and going, what is going on in their PR department that they think that this looks cool? I got to see it.

You got to see it. And let me find it real quick. Do do do do do do do. Do do do. Here we go. So I got to start here at the very beginning. Dog parents is how this starts. I just need you to hear that so you understand.

Dog parents. Wow. We're operating this armored vehicle so that you could take your dog on a peaceful walk at the park. Jews, Muslims, Christines, and people of all other religions. We're making sure our streets are safe so that you can be free to practice your religion without faith. Parents. We're operating. this aerial defense system so that you can send your children in school safety.

Hey kids, we're flying this UAV. I'm sorry, but just the drone operator? It's like, no, no, no, no. You have to blur out my face. Hello too much, bro. You know, you know, the good guys. Kids, we're flying this UAV so you can fly your kites without a worry. Surfers, we are here operating on this Sheldag PTO to keep the Israeli shorelines safe.

And for the people that prefer to stay in rather than going out, we are protecting Israel from cyber threats. So you can easily watch TV from your homes. So that when they try to destroy us... So when terrorists fire rockets at civilians. So when Hezbollah launches missiles towards Israel. So that when terrorists attack. So when Hamas tries to infiltrate our shores... We are here to defend.

to defend. Wow. I did not see that. If you told me that was an outtake from Paul Verhoeven Starship Troopers, I would believe you. I know. There's so much going on in that. Wow. Opening with dog parents for me is great because it's just like, it's just in case you were wondering, you know, the people that this is for is not other Israelis.

it's all in English so if for any moment you thought this is like some sort of internal propaganda no not at all they're talking to the American Jewish community but the American just people as a whole

and they're starting with dog parents and they're also talking about people who just want to stay inside and watch TV where it's just like hey fatties I know you like staying at home and you're watching your house of cards and your game of thrones and whatnot. But do you know that there's sometimes terrorists doing things?

Well, don't worry, we're killing their whole family so you can sit there and continue watching Bridgerton from Shonda Land. It's just like... It literally encapsulates what we're talking about is in the past 20 years, Israeli society has gone so far right, so extreme, has gone so insular, has become so incestuous, that they think what, you know, honestly, I think I gave a great analogy to Starship Troopers,

yeah perfect that's like a that's like a fascist propaganda piece yes and they're like oh americans will will support this war yeah i mean it's just crazy to me too because any american as an american who's watching this and i i can easily turn off my you know critical brain and just watch something for what it is you know i i do it all the time you know if i have to watch a jared letto movie you know i just go listen i know this guy's probably a bad dude in real life i don't trust him at all He said, I think he's in his ex-cult, but I got to watch House of Gucci. It's morbin time. It's morbin time. Exactly.

I got a morb with Morbius right now, so I'm going to let that check go. So I can turn off that part of the brain and just watching that. I'm like, what do you expect from Americans to get out of that? What segment of the population is the, are the kids when they're like, you know, don't worry, kids. We're operating this drone, this drone vehicle so you can. fly kites. They're not even trying. They're just like, I don't know, whatever kids do, fly kites, play Minecraft, you know, hit the wheel with the stick. I don't know what kids are doing these days.

The point is, we got to kill some terrorists. It is wild. It's also, and you know, they tried their best for diversity. They really tried. Yes, they did. All of them are in uniform. All of them are operating some weapon of destruction that will kill people and the juxtaposition to the smiley face to weapons of death and destruction that somehow this will motivate people and like if you're there you're like this seems like a really effed up society like why is this guy crawling with a machine gun talking to me about Muslims Jews and Christians living in a heartland that's not normal yeah and and it's just like it is it's so clearly like to me anyways I look at this

And it goes like, this is, the messaging only works for a Western chauvinist. Like, if you are someone who is just like, West is best, we need to, like, you know, tame the savage. That's who it's for. The problem is, is that they're trying to do both things where they're also trying to be libs. So they're like, hey, dog parents. Hey, are you an autistic with ADHD? Well, support this group because we're going to kill all these terrorists. It's just like, hey, queer vegan who watches the red non as porn.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, man, we're out here, you know, fucking making sure that, you know, you can get all the gluten-free options that you want. The only way to do that is if I killed his whole family. It's just like, I'm not sure they know how they sound. No, no, they don't. They really don't. They can't.

It reminds me, you know, again, we go back to this point. Gen Z. Children, listen to me. I have gray hair. Yes. I assure you, Israeli Hospra was better than this. Slick, polished, intellectual oftentimes, under the radar.

You would have never had a New York Times story about a $2 million cyber campaign using Chad, JBT. Yes. You influence lawmakers. They would never have come out. It was stealthy, much more insidious, much more successful. This is Starship Troopers. They've gone to Starship Troopers level, and they think everyone is at that level of Starship Troopers,

you know, ethnic fascism. And you're seeing the world pushback. You're seeing Jews pushback. They're like, no, no, not in our name. This is not our own. Yes, yes, yes. And, you know, you bring up this story, and, you know, unfortunately, we don't have enough time,

to go through the entire thing. But there was recently a story that was both, I think, New York Times and Haaret's newspaper in Israel revealed that the Israeli government was behind a pro-Israel network that basically created hundreds of like fake accounts, like sock puppet accounts and amplified, like created fake websites in order to influence American lawmakers and And specifically, Democrats in Congress, also specifically black Democrats in Congress. Because, again, this, like, idea of, like, trying to separate kind of, like, black Democratic leadership, you know, it's like, it's a way of trying to add some diversity to your ethno-nationalist

idea. Like, you know, we can't be ethno-nationalist. We have Richie Torres out here supporting us, you know. He wouldn't do that. Yeah, yeah, he's a good black. And, you know, he represents all blacks. At least he should. And the ones he doesn't represent, we will say racist shit to.

And it just. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, you see the way in which it's like been fairly successful in terms of like trying to get all Democrats, you know, to be in line with the APEC. And the weird thing is, is like, when you talk about. Hasbar being better, you know, there was a time where in order to do this, you just clearly relied, you know, solely on APEC, the threats of APEC to, you know, hey, you either support Israel in full or we will fund your opponent. But like this idea of like creating a bunch of fake accounts that are just so clearly, obviously fake in order to bully people who are already

sucking on the APEC teeth. Like, it's just, you look at it and you go, like, you're just leaving yourself open to this criticism because you're making it so obvious what you're doing. You know why? I think, I was talking a few friends about this. I think they're sandbagging. And the reason why they're sandbagging is they do not expect a multiracial, multicultural coalition

including Jews to push back and it's almost like you know when you've been the bully how dare you push back? Don't you know who I am? Get back in your place and young people are like no and they're like we're going to ban you we're going to make sure you don't get hired by law firms and young people are like I don't care

you can't say the G word young people are like we'll say the G word like this young generation gives zero Fs I think it's because they're seeing it they're seeing it and they have the way to fight back and talk back and maybe We've met, if you and I, 20 years ago, had these forums, you know, we could have exposed Hospara, but with that being said, I do think it is also shows an inner weakness in Israel

where this is not sustainable. And also shows you that oftentimes occupations are not sustainable. And I think one of these things, last thing I'll say, I know we're running out of time, but Nanyahu needs to stay in power to save himself. But much like 9-11, maybe it'll take a couple of years, there will be an investigation as to how October 7th could have happened. You know, with all that money, with literally, you know, so much funding, so many weapons, like obsession with security.

And it shows you it's not secure. No matter what you do, military solutions will not work. And so maybe just maybe. I'm throwing it out there, my final thought. Sure. If military solutions have not worked, Matt, maybe in the interest of, Israeli security, if I can't convince you to care about these Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims and Palestinian Christians, maybe it's an Israel's security to end the occupation.

I don't know, man. I was thinking, like, that's a good idea, but I have another suggestion. What about an app that you can give to people to help explain Israel's actions so that the conversation isn't taken up? all these like Muslims and bad Jews and I'd let you know that there was an app and I have a commercial for that app about I think this came out six years ago that I just feel like people need to see because I think it's a great technological product that will help the Jewish state here it is you're a smart guy what the hell she said you're a smart

the guy. Okay. You're a very responsible toothbrusher. And you remember never to swim right after eating. And always. Always make it a priority

to dig deep into important matters. Israel, for example, a country that falls into false and biased coverage online and in the media. Very good transition. I had it in myself on mute, so I don't think you saw me laugh.

I rarely laugh out loud, but it's the first time I've seen this. I actually laughed out loud with the transition to Israel. Wow. Yeah, beautiful. Beautiful transition. You know, just in case you were wondering what this was about with the two two hot Israeli girls coming up to a loser American who's on his computer all day. Searching if Tupac is still alive. And for those of you listening.

Yeah. File online, exclusive. Yeah. He's on fail online. He's reading about all this like just anti-Inty. Israel anti-Semitic, frankly, propaganda, and he's going to help these two hotties. You know the truth about Israel. I know the truth about Israel.

It makes you angry and helpless. And you decide, starting today, you were going to tell the whole world the real truth about Israel. I want to tell the world the truth! That's a bit too much. Want to protect Israel with these eight simple steps? Here's what you could do. Inventory disease to get time off work. It's just, it's pus everywhere.

Oh, and police not evacuate. What? Book a flight. Hello, airport? Fly for 11 hours in economy. Taxi. Arrive in Israel. Take three buses until you reach the Syrian border.

Join Israeli humanitarian aid and save the lives of wounded Syrian citizens. Ah! Celebrate lives saved in the city of the war. lives saved in the world's most vibrant pride parade in Tel Aviv. Enjoy a plate of the best hummus with people of all religions. So are you guys in a band or something? Upload your travel photos to Facebook and Instagram and share the truth about Israel.

And finally, return back home just to discover that the lies about Israel are still spreading. Your job is no longer relevant. And even that your good intentions have been used against you. Or you can pick the easy way. Want to defend Israel? Log on to 4iL. Download the app and share the truth. What now?

Now. Now we boogie. Oh. Producer Adam had it right in the chat. this could be a funny or die video. Yes, this is a funny or die-ass video. This is, you know,

listen, there was a time in which Israeli propaganda was good. This happened a few years ago and it was at a time when they were just starting to lose that edge in their forays into comedy

and man the fall off has been brutal I think that's one of the the tragedies because Jews are funny people they've gone through a lot in American comedy

is indebted to Jews and if I was a Jew I would be mostly offended by how unfunny and uncreative that was that's Ashanda yes that's exactly what I say all the time

it's like the one universal truth about Jews has always been we're pretty good at making jokes but then you watch the effect the corrosive effect

of nationalism upon us as a people and you just go like you've stolen everything from me dog you've stolen everything but hey go download that app it probably doesn't exist anymore

but man good stuff you know what I like about it the most those girls were hot and sometimes that's all it takes in order to get a young Jewish gentleman like myself to be like, I want to support the hot ladies. Not now, though.

I have a wife watch. But back then, you would you would boogie down with two. I would boogie down. If it meant I could hang out with some Israeli hoddies, I would buggy down. I would put on whatever that shit. He put on blackface and was saving Syrian children in that. I'm not exactly sure what was happening in most of that video.

But hey, the ladies were hot, and sometimes that's all you need in order to look the other way. Wodge, God bless you for coming on this podcast. Oh, that was great, man. I really enjoyed that. It was therapeutic, hopefully informative for the audience. I don't spend as much time on the hospital as you do. You are much more of a massacus, so I did not see. This is full disclosure.

Matt did not tell me he was going to show me those videos. my reactions were sincere and pure and genuine. Yes, yes. But I will say, you know, I will say this before I go. It's one of those situations where I want to reiterate. Look, I live in America. I've chosen to live in America. We've got kids in America.

America is flawed, but it is a multiracial, multicultural coalition. It's the only way we're going to survive. The biggest threat to America is white Christian nationalism and white supremacy. They're coming after all of us. 100%. So you can simultaneously, critique, but you have to look at the big picture. The threat is not an undocumented immigrant. The threat is not me or Matt. The threat is not a college protester, no matter what they say.

That's the threat. And at the same time, you can simultaneously hold multiple truths. You can be critical of Israel and you should be without hating Jews. In fact, I hope I've made the case that I want to protect Jews and Arabs and Christians and Palestinians and Muslims. Oh, yeah. And right now we're at that point, eight months. where as Americans, we have to ask ourselves, why oh, why is our government and our taxpayer money funding and supporting a genocide that will destroy lives and not make anyone safer? And I think enough has been shown now where you can't be on the fence on this. I'm sorry, but I don't think you can't.

And, you know, sometimes a big brother, like United States or the superpower, Sometimes you take things away from a drunk driver if you want to help them. Yeah, 100%. But where can people find you? Let's plug some of your work. Oh, so thank you for listening to the chaos in the back. My kids have come out.

So there's like 500 kids there in the background. It's usually like this all the time. But it's great. They're sweet kids. I'm co-hosting the podcast, Democracy Ish, with Daniel Moody. You should have her on. She's fantastic. Cool.

We'll do. And she's gone to Palestinian Israel, and she's very vocal for Palestinian rights. a black woman so you can want that perspective from those communities and we just started a podcast a musliman a jew walk into a podcast for mary trump media and i wrote this book that they told me to shamelessly promote uh go back to where you came from uh and you control me on x and i just joined the tictox at ticot wajali so i was going to say you should be at ticot wajj yeah i'm going to change it to tick at ticot wodge i think some some someone else here watch took it but right now i'm at

Oh, worse watch. Thank you so much for coming on. And thank everyone out here for listening and joining the Patreon, patreon. Patreon.com slash badassbara and email us badassbarra at gmail.com. And all right, everyone. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, from the river to the sea,

that app commercial made me horny. Sorry. Jumping jacks was us. Push-ups. was us, godmaga us, all karate us, taking Molly us, Michael Jackson us, Yamaha keyboards, us, charge of minks not us, Andor was us, Keith Ledger Joker us, endless bread success, Happy Meals was us, McDonald's was us, being happy us, bequem yoga us, eating food, us, breeding air, us, drinking water us. We invented all that shit.