Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - Bad Hasbara 36: Transactional Phobic, with Marc Lamont Hill

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

Today Matt and Daniel welcome political analyst and host of Night School, Marc Lamont Hill for a conversation about debating zionists, Christian Zionism and about how Matt is treyf.Watch Marc Lamont Hill's new YouTube Show Night SchoolWill you be in Chicago during the Democratic National Convention? So will I! Me and my wife Francesca Fiorentini have a couple of live shows we are doing! On Monday and Tuesday August 19 and 20, Francesca and I will be doing shows at Lincoln Lodge in Chicago. Monday will be a live Bitchuation Room Podcast with me and some other great guests, and Tuesday will be a live stand up show with us and some friends.August 19th Live Podcast Tickets August 20th Live Stand Up TicketsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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And welcome to Bad Hasbara, the world's most moral podcast. My name is Matt Lieb. I am going to be your most moral co-host for this podcast. So excited to have all of you here. Thanks for everyone who listened to the last episode we did yesterday and in which we thought Noam Chomsky had died. That's a fun one. That was, you know, that'll go down in infamy as, you know,

one of those times where we got got. And I hope you enjoyed all of the added, you know, stuff I put in there where I just kept popping in and saying, just kidding, he didn't die over and over in post. Listen, it's not a live show, but sometimes you make the same mistakes as a live show. So thanks to everyone out there who listen to that. And shout out to Omar Bidar for that.

He is a great guest, and we will have him back soon to talk about an alive Noam Chomsky. One more shout-out, producer Adam Levin, and final shout-out. Remember, I'll be in Chicago on Monday and Tuesday, August 19th, and 20th. We're going to do a live podcast at the Lincoln Lodge on the 19th and on the 20th. Myself and my wife Francesca Fiorentini are going to be doing stand-up. It's going to be a fun show. Please get your tickets.

They're in the bio. Okay. We're going to bring in our most moral code. host. That's right. The man, the myth, the legend. It is Daniel Matte. What's up, buddy? Ed Mubarak and happy Juneteenth, my brother. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Are there any other holidays that have nothing to do with you and me that I could, that I could wish you a good holiday. I'm sure we could appropriate some more holidays. Uh, indigenous people's day. Definitely could appropriate that one. We, in fact, we seem to do that sometimes as Jews. I'm

expecting, yeah, well, I'm expecting this year. There's going to be a whole lot of Zionists posting happy indigenous people today. It's going to be so, it's going to be so egregious. I'm going to cry. I'm just going to watch all of these blonde hair, blue-eyed white people just being like, as an indigenous person. It'll be great and fun. I'm excited to do this episode because we have, listen, I'm excited to do all episodes of this podcast, but we have a great guest. Someone who I've been wanting to get on for a while. This is someone who is the host of Night School on YouTube. You've seen him in various debates. You've seen him get fired by CNN for giving a speech that was just filled with facts and truth. Most moral firing. Yes. It was the world's most moral firing.

Ladies and gentlemen and everyone else, welcome to the podcast. Mark Lamont Hill. Hey. How's it going? It's going good. How are you doing? How's life? You know, I was really on an emotional roller coaster watching you guys yesterday thinking

that Chomsky was dead. You know. Yeah, well, listen. It fucked me up, guys. It worked out just fine because then he wasn't dead. It didn't, you know, that's way better than him being dead. Yeah, I know. I was like, it's good that he's not dead

but there was like the smallest, evilest part of me like going, it'll be really better for this episode. Right. It was like that Simpson's episode where Bart's in science class and they play them in instructional video.

It's like, have you ever thought about what the world would be like without zinc? And, you know, sorry. That, though, the metal filings and that gun you're trying to shoot yourself with, they were made with zinc And Timmy's like, come back, Zink, come back. So, you know, we gave you a, we gave you a nightmare.

We pulled you out of it. And now you can be, you can go to. Here's the problem. He's like, he's, you know, he's playing with house money at this point. So, you know, he could die like tomorrow. And if he dies tomorrow, it's so anticlimactic. I mean, he deserves better than what will happen if he dies like tomorrow. So he kind of has to live like another six months or years.

Yeah, at least. Yeah, it's unfortunate because, you know, like this is, I don't want to. add more pressure to a man who's already, you know, spent his life being harassed by all sorts of people. But I'm going to need him to live for a while so that we can, you know, do a proper eulogy later in life. But also, you know, like I said on the podcast yesterday, hey, isn't it nice to do a eulogy to someone who's still alive? Well, that's all I do. I worked at BESI full time for over a decade. Yeah.

And so, you know, news organizations tend to write eulogies for people before they die, so you're good at... But when it's like, you know, ABC or CNN, you write them for people like Harry Belafonte or or, you know, Jimmy Carter. Sure.

I was making it for, like, Little Wayne. You know? He was music. Yeah. I was writing so many eulogies where people were like, like, 24. You know? That's so fucked.

Did you have to put the cause of death on there? Because it was like if I had a few guesses, lean would be one of the guesses. We didn't write it, but we all knew. You know, it was like, okay. It's like one reason to be writing a eulogy for a little way. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know. A syrup related.

Right. Related. I saw a very funny tweet. Someone said, R.P. Noam Tromsky. you spent your life teaching people the importance of critiquing the media and one unsourced tweet says you're dead

and the world believes it. I know. That felt like a personal attack recently, but hey, you know, good thing is he's still alive, he's still with us, which means that there's still a chance he'll be on this podcast,

which is... You want to on your podcast? You should get him on your part. I mean, if... He's not speaking. He hasn't been actually able to speak since his stroke last summer, apparently. I interviewed him right before the stroke.

Man. And it was a great interview. He had the, oh, there was like moths flying out of it. I don't know if he, like, left the office in, like, two years. But, again, I thought it was, like, one of his last interview, so I was going to repost it yesterday, like, you know. And then, again, he kept living. So, but if he can, if he gets his voice back, I'm sure he'd come on bad husband.

I mean, where else would he come? I know. This is, I mean, you know, the one last stop. before eternity and it's the stupidest the stupidest podcast in existence um the biggest tension in that episode would be can we get him to smile or like yeah i mean he's he's always had a pretty sardonic sense of humor or at least a very deadpan one but like sure can we get him at this age to to you know to riff with us to do the banter tell tell him tell him dershowins tripped and chipped his tooth or something he will be he will laugh for a year straight um

Maybe you'll come out of all of this really giggly. Oh, that'd be sick. It's fair. I wanted to talk to you first about I've been watching night school, your new YouTube show, and I think it's great. Thank you. You have this ability to debate with people in a way that I think is, it's like a, it's a rare gift because you are not your. are neither a Jewish anti-Zionist nor a Palestinian. And so I feel like in the debates with Zionists that you do,

you can feel the like internal anti-blackness within them, just like bubbling and wanting to come out in this way that you just don't see with, you know, any other types of debates. Like the way that like an anti-Zionist would debate a Zionist, The Zionists just hates you for being a traitor or a capo or Palestinian. They're like, well, you just hate me for, you know, for existing. But with you, I feel like it is, it's almost a superpower the way you're able to bring out kind of the, you know, the well-hidden demon of many Zionists. That's the goal.

Yeah. And I think you pull it off. I wanted to talk about one interview in particular. a debate that you did with this is a an attorney named Mark Sarlson Oh Yeah

Yeah, that's the guy who's Tesco's haven't descended yet Yeah, so I think they did descend And they had second thoughts They're like, no I don't want to be associated with this guy Yes

Yeah Yeah, he he uh you know he's got a weird voice is just kind of like hey he's like a kind of a zionist mickey mouse of sorts and which was unsettling by the way because he he can imagine talked so menacingly on x on twitter or whatever of course i'm expecting this rugged you know tough-talking attorney maybe a former idf soldier yeah yeah you're like hey you're fucking anti-semit all right that's what i think and instead he's like oh i think you hate the jews A land without people for a people without a land.

They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, ha ha. Like this is like weird voice aside. What I loved about this debate was the way that this person, there's a certain type of Zionist that exists now that is accidentally doing, good anti-Zionist praxis where they are they don't really

they understand the Hezbara talking points but they don't really understand when is the most strategic way to deploy them and so he is kind of going scatter shot with you he first called you an anti-Semite for you did a tweet

in which you said that Netanyahu was lying about how tragic it was that civilians were killed during the the Rafa strike that killed 45 plus people at the end of May. Yeah, he called a tragic mistake. Yes, a tragic mistake. And he called you an anti-Semite for that. And that's essentially, the premise of his argument seems to be that it's anti-Semitic

to think that Israel can do bad things, which is, I mean, that's a sloppy way of doing the Hezbara. I usually, I find more people, at least the ones in a position of doing like, you know, public relations, they at least try to make it sound like they're, you know, not just slinging out the word, you know, just to end the argument. Or was it, was the accusation that you're an anti-Semite because you doubted the sincerity of a Jews, you know, a Jewish person's heartfelt remorse and control? After military incursion, yeah. What you said is probably what he would have said had he been more articulate and thoughtful or better trained. Right. Because what they usually do is they make three or four,

they're like three or four steps. And they kind of walk you down those steps and then you end up in anti-Semiteville, right? So it's like, oh, well, you're doubting it. And why are you doubting it? Right. The state issued information, why are you questioning the state? You don't question the other states.

You're only questioning the Jewish state. If the Jewish state has only been questioned, that it must be because you are anti-Semitic, because the only distinguishing factor is that they are Jewish. The problem is he jumped straight there, and because he does the kind of paint by the numbers mudslinging, the arguments that I made in response didn't fit the pattern he was trying to develop. So I'm like, well, I don't distinguish. trust, I don't trust anybody. He said, he said, first it's like, why are you not trusting Netanyahu on what basis? I'm like, well, because he lies a lot. Right. Yeah. He lies a lot. And so,

but he's like, but he didn't lie? But he didn't lie this time. And I'm like, true. But if someone lies 11 times, I don't have to wait for them to lie on the 12th to say, I don't trust this person. And if I make that claim, that doesn't make, it's not a mark against me that I don't trust the person. But then beyond that, I'm saying that there's considerable evidence that this was foreseeable. So I'm doubting both that he saw it as tragic because he often talks about Palestinians as if they are not human beings. But I'm also doubting that it's an accident. And so he couldn't he he couldn't get past the idea that it is, you know, he couldn't get past his feigned, possibly suspicion that anyone who claims that Jews would in any way want someone to.

to die who didn't deserve to die by whatever standard, you know, he would put that as is anti-Semitic. He just is like, no, but Israel, the fact that you would assume that Israel did a bad thing is that alone is anti-Semitic. And you have this great moment between you guys where he's talking, you're talking about international law. And I just want to play a little bit of that. That famously anti-Semitic field. I had an Israeli soldier, you know, an active duty reservist tell me that the minute that brought up international law and human rights law is like, okay, now we're talking about, you know, anti-Semitic institutions. I'm like, okay, so there's literally no, there's no standards outside of your own solipsistic framework. Yes, and there's a

great clip of where he basically says that verbatim, but we'll get into that in a second. First, here's this clip. But here's a film. It's not international law. Mark, you're playing, I don't know what international law is. Mark, you're planning. And you shouldn't. Did Israel have a legal duty to avoid killing civilians? Your question is, in fact, anti-Semitic, and here's why. You are assuming in your question that Israel doesn't avoid killing civilians.

No, I'm asking you a question. You said that you don't know what international law is. I was making an argument to you that there are very clear dictates of international law that Israel claims to abide by. I was making the point from you. From your perspective, the Israel says it does follow international law. And after the ICJ decision, they said, we already follow international law. So it's just, but I thought I'd say you call me into something again. Just like, that's true.

They do follow international law. That thing that I just claimed a second ago, I just know it exists. If they're supposed to. Mr. Hill, Mr. Lamont, Hill, do you own in your record collection by any chance? The album, Fear of a Black Planet by Public. enemy. If so, I can attest that there is a song called Welcome to the Terror D. on which Chuck D. says

so-called chosen, frozen, apology made to whoever pleases, tell they got me like Jesus. Game, set, match, you're an anti-Semi. That's basically what his arguments are like. It's like, it's an insane thing to watch someone

so, like, quickly go from, I don't know what international law is. And it's anti-Semitic for you to say that, you know, to ask whether or not Israel should follow it because it is automatically presumes that they don't, which is like, that's not how questions work. Right. Right. And then for him to go like, and by the way, they do follow international law. And so he answers, it's the way in which this debate goes is very much like the way the last eight months have gone in terms of.

Hasbara, whereas before you would have one piece of propaganda that kind of just sat out there for a while. People would talk about it. People would try to, you know, in the public sphere debate one particular thing, you know, did Israel kill Shereen Abuakl. And then eventually all of the Israeli lives would be, you know, basically admitted to. And then people would forget at that point. They'd stop caring. In the last eight months, obviously, they've gone from like, we didn't bomb hospitals to we had to bomb that hospital in the matter of you know 24 hours his debate tactic seems to be the same which is to just give you a quick like this is like his barra 101 on like 2x speed um he he is really and at what at one point you like try to you kind of try to help him well

like you're very kind to this grotesque liar in a way that i think i like appreciated Because I also, you know, as much as these people are doing an act that I find disgusting, I'm like, come on, man. If you're going to do this in public, you've got to at least look normal. Let us help you out. I get embarrassed for them. Yes. The arguments are so bad. They're so bad.

And it's such sloppy thinking and such dishonesty and the combination of those things makes it makes it really tough to have a conversation. Yeah. And here's, I mean, here's one where you're, you're doing your best to help this guy who is disputing the numbers of dead Palestinians because of Hamas. And he seems to have no idea what Hamas actually is. All right. So here. Gaza health ministry is run by Hamas. Every, every municipal entity in all of Gaza. I'm not by the military wing of Hamas.

The military wing of Hamas has absolutely no impact on the gods and health ministry. But again, historically, again, this is verifiable. information. Is there a non-military wing of Hamas? Yes, and you should know that if you're going to debate this issue. Yes, there is, you do understand of this. You're like, bro, when you agreed to this, you should have at the very least read something in a book or anything. Honestly, something longer than two paragraphs. I'm surprised he didn't, I'm surprised he didn't pivoted at that moment to. Okay, now that correction was anti-Semitic. You're presuming that a Jew would not know that in fact

yes there is a non-military wing you're assuming that I wasn't being ironic yeah it's just a prank bro all right here we go you're a terrorist and you should be killed and I don't care what your title is

okay that's spicy you remember that I asked you're like that was a zinger yeah yeah that for him was just like I mean it kind of mask off in a way where he is number one he doesn't know what Hamas is I mean it's clear that he's he doesn't understand

that they do have like civil and bureaucratic duties that they do I mean they are they are government they are running Gaza as not running as in like guys with guns run I mean like a government that runs things like you know public transportation or

help, you know, it is, that's what a, the duties of a government does. And, you know, his, the way in which he's just like, there, if you are Hamas, you are terrorists, you deserve to die. Just like Al-Qaeda, just like ISIS and all that stuff. It's just, you know, it speaks to the level of ignorance within the kind of genocidal thinking of a Zionist where you are, you're clearly not going to do any research past what maybe you've heard in passing about what Hamas is. And you're just Me, like, okay, I can comfortably say they deserve to die. And their next door neighbors deserve to die, too, according to Israel's good neighbor policy. I mean, these people will expect from that kernel of, if I can associate you in, if you make me think of Hamas, if you make me scared, you deserve to die.

I mean, that's the, that's right. Yeah, it is, it's wild. I just want to play my favorite moment from this debate, uh, in which he, does the fastest circular argument i think i've ever seen in public here we go if i fill up evidence even if you don't agree with it if i'm using evidence would that then nullify your claim that it was anti-semitism you don't have evidence it doesn't matter what you show me it won't have evidence to you why won't count as evidence to you why won't tell us evidence even if i show it to you because because israel is not doing this there's no evidence

You're saying you haven't seen any evidence. I'm saying let me show you the evidence. You're saying no matter what you show me, it won't count as evidence because it doesn't exist. And I'm saying, how do you know it doesn't exist? You're saying, because I haven't seen any. I'm saying, well, let me show you. And it doesn't matter what you show me.

It's a circle. You're saying no matter what you see, it won't count as evidence to you. Show me a targeting system where the Israeli Air Force said, let's go target. There have been numerous examples of human, Do you trust human rights watch? No, God, no.

No, God, no. Should you? Do you trust Amosan International? No, God, no. No, no, should you. What human rights organization do you trust? No one. I'd have to think.

I don't trust most. They're all pretty much. You would, and that's the problem. You would have been right. Yeah, whenever someone forces you to think, that's also an act of aggressive anti-Semitism. Man, that circular argument, that was a quadruple lutz. You know, that was just a,

Yeah. It's like, do you hear yourself? Even watching it now, my blood pressure is going back. I'm like, do you hear yourself? Yeah. You actually, you go on, it ends so perfectly here. So you don't trust human rights organizations. Do you trust the UN?

Hell no. We should pull out of the UN. What international legal bodies do you trust? NATO. Okay, so you know investigations of these things, right? They do all the time. NATO conducts investigations. What investigation of Gaza did NATO do?

Why would they do an investigation of Gaza? Mark, like I said they don't do that. Mark, like I said, the people who are going to say Israel's doing this are groups that have a predisposition that are hitting it. That is the most incredible moment where it's like it's so frustrating to be in that position because you, there's this hope that you have that you're going to be able to break through to somebody. You know, just. Yeah.

I mean, I believe this too. Like I, for months, I tried talking to people who I knew personally and just trying to be like, how can I break through this like narrative that you've been constructing your, you know, your whole life, essentially. Right. And it is just like, it is nothing but defense mechanisms. Like, how do you, how do you find, do you, do you find it useful to talk to people either online or individually? So I do it for two reasons, right? One is more noble than the other. Both, though, the most moral reasons.

Oh, good, good, good. The first reason is the reason I used to be on Fox News debating Bill O'Reilly two or three times a week. No one in the history of cable news, and certainly not Bill O'Reilly, is going to say, you know what, you made a good argument, I'm wrong, let's go to commercial, right? Like, it doesn't happen.

The point of the debate is not, from my perspective, to convince the interlocutor. I don't care if Bill O'Reilly's convinced. But the people watching us debate know that I won. Yeah. Or at least hear my argument and are not persuaded by it. So the value of the debate doesn't rest upon, or the legitimacy of the debate doesn't rest upon whether or not this guy here,

you know, it realized that he made the world's dumbest argument. It doesn't matter. It's actually more powerful to me if he doesn't. right because then the world watches and says damn that was a dumbass argument that that's who I've been siding with maybe I need to read more yeah maybe I need to learn more so it actually works that he gets his ass kid

yeah at that level right if he were persuaded it'd be great but like that doesn't happen right the other reason it still leans into the first reason but it's also also undergirded by a whole lot of ego stuff right and that is

that they think I'm stupid a lot of them I watch, when I do Al Jazeera, I watch the, the literal sigh of relief on the Israeli general's face or Friedman's face or Danny Dannon's face or whoever, when they come on because they see somebody who they immediately read as incapable of defeating them or even holding them properly accountable. At the interview at that moment, I'm not there to debate them. I'm there to hold them accountable.

those two things blur when the person's fighting you back. But there's a way that they assume very little. And so the value of it for me is at a certain level personal. Like I just love to kick their ass. But again, it also is a pedagogical thing

for the audience. They learn also. Oftentimes, on Al Jazeera, I'm able to successfully hold it as people accountable because they back themselves into corners and they make admissions that they otherwise wouldn't because they assume that I don't know anything and is that who I am right they don't follow american media and and they don't know

that i've studied this or that i teach this or that i've written books on there they don't they don't they don't um and then on twitter you get the people who get the kind of a brian scalabrini syndrome you know i don't know if you can watch yeah yeah Brian scalabrini was he uh the celtics guy with the big uh the redhead yeah he's a big redhead that everybody he was like the go-to person for that guy can't play. It's like if you're going to make fun of the Jackson's, you want to Tito, right? Tito's actually a phenomenal musician,

right? But he's not Janet Jackson. He's not Michael Jackson. He's not even Jermaine Jackson. I used to do it with Mark Madsen because I'm from Los Angeles. He was my go-to. But Brian Scalabrini is good too. Well, Scalabrini got tired of it. So all the people would be like, I can kick Scalabrini just, I can beat Scalabrini's, watch YouTube. He has a whole

series of people. He made old web series series of him playing ordinary people in basketball and just beating the living shit out of them. Right? and that's great what he says to them is I'm closer to LeBron James than you are to me right they don't get that yeah and so you know sometimes 90% of people

I debate are these scholars and these politicians and these people and every once in all you get a guy like this guy who's you know I don't just pick any tomato can but like a guy like this who's a lawyer who's smart who's well read allegedly who says if I just had a minute with Mark I'd kick his ass and then I want them to see that this that's not what this is going to be.

This is going to be WWF Saturday morning. I'm the ultimate warrior. You're El Conquistador. And this is just going to end that way, right? You're the tomato can. You can tell his voice was getting higher and higher as it went on. You know, he just was getting more and more like he realized,

oh, shit, I fucked up. Right. I thought this guy was going to be stupid. I mean, I got this decision. Oh, God. I thought he was just going to do raps at me. I'll never. forgive, I'll never forgive Goofy for suggesting this.

Goofy, get in here. Daniel, you said, you had a question? Yeah, so, you know, Matt mentioned the latent and not so latent or blatant anti-blackness that will crop up in these spaces because when you're dealing with Zionism, you're dealing with a very, you know, ethnically powder keats. ideology that is already looking at the world through that lens so it's maybe surprising we had the firing of briana joy gray last week or two weeks ago yeah over and over an alleged eye roll yeah an alleged eye roll you know um and then there's candace owens who

has you know i've seen her interview some real slimy zionists who'll do the same thing that this guy did to you and just come out and you know has it been is it strange for you? Because I saw her also interview Norman Finkelstein. She did a beautiful job interviewing him back in the fall. Has it been strange finding yourself on the same side of something as her? And what can you say more generally about the racial dynamics here, especially given, you know, I made reference to that whole public enemy controversy, the history of, you know, the accusations of anti-Semitism and the black community, all this kind of stuff, all just the subtext of it all. What's that been like that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a couple

pieces to that. Um, first to Candace Owens part. I mean, it's just Candice has done an extraordinary job of endearing herself to white people and to the right. No one is confusing her as being on the left or even the center. Yeah. So she's earned some grace here. He's the person who's saying, or at least the benefit of the doubt, right? She's the one who says racism doesn't exist or I don't want to overstate her position, but I'll say the things

that I say are racist or that I think most people would say are racist, she does not identify as racist. She has no problem holding the black community accountable for things that I think are actually systemic and structural. She has been a loud voice saying that ain't racist, despite what you black people are saying. Right. So

you would think that she's earned you know, some kind of on that issue. Even if I think she's wrong, even though I think she's wrong. But when it comes to her saying, wait a minute, the same energy that I'm using to say that we have to be honest about

what's going on in the black community or we have to be honest about whatever pathology we think Negroes have, we got to do the same thing when a Republican congressman says there are no innocent Palestinians or there are no Palestinian civilians, right? How can that be okay?

And so she doesn't that grace. And so there's a, the question is why. Some of it, I don't think is racial. I think the primary reason is she's simply on the wrong side of the Zionist critique. And, you know, that transcends political party. And so they're like, well, and I think they did give her grace. I think if it's me saying the same things that Candace says, I think she gets fired a lot faster. Sure. But yeah, but she's still willing to blame black people. Oh, yeah, but she still hate trans folk. These are like arguments in her favor. Like somebody, someone wrote that down on a white. board pros pros of kandis owens uh hates black people hey you know just

that is literally the criticizes israel that's literally on the pro side you're right and ben and ben shapiro's jumping up to try and reach the thing on the whiteboard being like hates is it hates israel what more is there to say someone get me a step stool it's the strangest thing i've ever seen um but then there's also a sense that well two things one the black people shouldn't be talking about this yeah yeah um how dare you talk about this and to the extent that you're talking about it you should only be talking about it uh from the perspective of a black person who has benefited from the philanthropy and the social uh allyship of jewish people in the 1960s basically you owe us one do you know how

fucking embarrassing that is i just as a jew and this is why for the first time i've said as a Jew on the show, I want to point that out. But I got to say, one of the most embarrassing things in the world is the amount of white Jewish people who were, who publicly, especially after October 7th, we're just like, after all we've done for you, black people. Yes. And in everything. And like the, the 2020 moment reset that. Because before it should be, you know, what about, you know, you know, Schwanter and Goodman, you know? Now, we were there in Minnesota in 2020. So you really, oh, You all was like recent stuff. And that argument, I could see why you'd be embarrassed by it.

You could see why I'd be annoyed by it. Yeah. It's like, you should be on the right side of history at all times, right? We all should be struggling to be on the right side of history. Standing with Dr. King was the right side of history. Standing against the Yahoo isn't. It's kind of that. Yeah.

Just like being openly transactional about something in which you claim there's like a, like a morality involved. Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt. Jews are not transactional. That's anti-summitism. That's true. That's right. There's a long history of transactions that was, of course. I'm sorry. And also it's transactional phobic. That's right. It is transphobic. You are transphobic. I didn't even. Yeah. We're phobic of those. Solid work. Dan Daniel is the, he's the pun master. You can't stop himself. It's a disease. But go on. So. So, like, yeah. Idea that like, how dare you stay in your place, right? Which is the same thing they told Martin Luther King. In 67, when he gives the speech at Riverside on April 4th of 67, when he gives a speech about the war in Vietnam, at this point, Lyndon Johnson is like, yo, we stay in a Negro preacher's place. This is not, foreign policy is not true matters.

So there's a long history of skepticism, of black kind of cosmopolitanism, an awareness of black political internationalism. They don't want us doing that stuff. And the other slice of it is just a more fundamental white supremacist argument that we're just not that. smart, right? And so it's like, you don't, you shouldn't be doing this. And even if you do it, you're probably going to do it really bad because you're not that bright. And so all of this, I think, um, plays into how, uh, Candace Owens gets responded to. Um, and it does make a kind of a strange bedfellow for a moment, because you're like, wait a minute, I'm out here standing in for Candace. Oh, and she says things that I do think have been anti-submitting. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

occasionally like you know the most annoying thing in the world is watching people like drag someone for doing something that i'm like that's actually a perfectly fair critique of israel and then you see another tweet that just like uh you know the jews killed christ all together and they'll kill christ again and you're like god okay well that was i'm not i can't defend that yeah if you're if you're going to if you're going to invoke christ in defending palestine there's a there's a there's a there's a not too narrow but also not too wide swath of uses, you know? You can talk about the least of these. And, you know, Cornell, I think Cornell has, has Jesus down in terms of a resource for

pro-Palestine activism. But, yeah, Candice sometimes veers into, yeah. It's too slippery. You don't have to mention Jesus and you don't have to mention Hitler. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And very rarely do people invoke either and it works out well.

Yeah. Who else is there? Those are the only two guys in history. There's only two people in history who are good at comparing to, and that's Hitler and Jesus. It's like, just don't mention Hitler, and things will be fine. And if you're criticizing Jews throughout history, don't mention Jesus, unless you're saying, yeah, just don't say it. Because even what I'm about to say will be misrepresented. No, right.

I mean, even so, I feel like, you know, there's something to be said for the fact that we, I try my best, not. to be the tone police? Because at this point, tone policing is just actual, like, ACAB includes tone police. You know what I mean? Like, it is, it is a way in which you can find a, it's a way to derail a conversation or perfectly legitimate critique. And so I try not to distract, and that's my point. But I find the people who do it, a lot of times we do it because they actually are anti-semitic, right? I've never needed to mention to leverage Hitler in an argument. It just doesn't make sense. Like when Candace, you know, a year or two ago was saying that, you know,

Hitler's problem basically was, you know, that he went commercial. They didn't say in the underground, you know. Right. Yeah, he said he sold out. Right. You know what the major label was all over. Just don't mention Hitler. Like, and, but anyway, beyond that part of it, you know.

So it's an awkward place to be with the, with the Candace Owens piece of it, because now I'm, I'm defending. her on principle because I think she's correct in her critique at this moment. And I think that the way that Michael Barclay was talking to, Rabbi Barclay, talking to her was condescending. And this is the point.

Condescending is generous. You're right. And I think she and it caused her to kind of double down in a place where she could have said, hey, I didn't understand. I called her, yeah, I called her a witch and yes, there's a long history of Jews being called witches and saying they have horns

and all these other things that are deeply rooted anti-Semitic tropes had I known that I would have used a different one but now but that wasn't my intent she could have said that but because he's being a dick she decides to double down on that side too and so it just becomes a really unproductive conversation yeah she's a reactionary at heart so it kind of makes sense as to you know where that would go right but to me the more fundamental question around the race and racism stuff is less at the interpersonal level and more at the structural level right which is how does the state of Israel create an ethical state that reinforces the racial logics of white supremacy.

You know, and there's a way that out, that Jewish people from Eastern Europe who go to inform the state of Israel are able to kind of embrace and access a kind of whiteness that they couldn't access in Europe because they were racialized, right? The very idea of racializing Jews is an act of anti-Semitism. To construct Jews as a race in the, in the eugenic sense is racism and it's anti-Semitic. think the Jews are different biologically is anti-Semitic. And so, but they were seen as not white. And the same thing in the United States, when we cut off immigration to Eastern European Jews, to Italians, to, you know, to Irish.

Yeah. But eventually they were able to buy into whiteness. There's a way that the state of Israel allows that particular swath, particularly the Ashkenazim, to become white. Yeah. And I'm not, I know people will hear that and deliberately misrepresented, so I can't, I can't worry about that. But what I will say is when I say that, that's not to say that Jews are just white. There's always complexities here. There's always ethnicity.

There's always race. There's all these things that complicate how we see and read people. But the point is that the racial logics and imperatives of white supremacy become normative for Ashkenazim in Israel at the expense of other folks. So by the time you get to the 1980s and you have Operation Moses, for example, in 84, when they're airlifting the Betta Israel from Ethiopia into the state of Israel. Part of the anxiety, part of the moral and social panic of the nation was we're bringing people who are not legibly Jewish to us. You know, people who aren't white and people, and because our Jewishness is bound up in particular, certain understandings of what we're going to look like. We got anxiety about that. And we just heard African people. So, you know, we've been watching

Sally Struthers, you know, on TV, you know. I don't know. Like, you know, save the children. It's like, We have stereotypes about that shit, too, right? So all of that becomes part of the conversation. And so the anti-blackness that is in Israel. And it's not just on the Israeli side. It's on the Palestinian side, too. Palestinians are anti-I mean, I have at a checkpoint with Palestinians yelling at Israeli soldiers,

and they got special criticisms for the Bayteclero, so I'm like, all right, chill. It's like, you're a me. I'm like, yeah, you're an animal. Yeah, you're an occupier. Yeah, you black below. I see. It's 10th, that's true.

Not me too, it's all over. And so, like, it's not one side, but the whole point is the white supremacist piece of it leaks into the resistance to black critics of Israel as well. Right, yeah. And, yeah, in terms of, you know, the intersections of power there also is an incredibly important point to make, you know, the difference between, you know, the occupied, you know, yelling something that is, you know, abhorrent, something racist towards a black

occupier is different than the systemic and structural racism within, you know, Israeli society and American society, you know, that's, whiteness is obviously a construction. And so, you know, this, the point of the construction and the point of racism is the, the power aspect. I only learned this year that there was a black panther. party in Israel, in Jerusalem, formed of Mizrachim. They made a Black Panther Hagada back in the, I think, 60s and they cast Golda Meir as Hitler, sorry, not Hitler, excuse me, Pharaoh. There I did, you know, and it's really remarkable to, and also learning that at least back

in the 50s, there was a fair amount of conversation between Mizrahi Jews and Palestinians in terms of, you know, they understood something about each other's experience. And I'm still learning about this. I can't speak on it authoritatively. But that racial dynamic, the whitening of Eastern European Jews and the imposition of a white supremacist order has had implications for many, many communities there. Absolutely. And it reminds you that the racial frameworks of the United States can't just

be exported. So, you know, I've spent the last nine years now, nine years studying the Afro-Palestinian community in East Jerusalem. I spent a lot of time there. I used to spend a lot time there. Post-COVID I don't go back. But, and, you know, my first instinct, when I see East, when I see in East Jerusalem, you know, Afro-Palestinians, oh, they're black. You know, so I was like, oh, what does it like to be black here? If Palestinian is bad, damn, now you're black, too. Yeah. Yeah. You can't get better. I mean, no one's ever like, well, it's better than black, you up. But as I learned there, I had to reimagine racialization. And the thing that you get racialized as is Palestinian, not as black. And so, you know, which is why when I ask Palestinians,

when you see an Ethiopian soldier, do you feel better? They're like, no. Because we're not black together. Right. They're Jewish, and I'm not. And in a Jewish ethno state, you're either Jewish or you're not. Right. And that's the most important thing. And so the way race works is different. That's not to say that blackness doesn't matter. To your point, you know, when Ruben Avergel and other people, and I've had the pleasure spending some time with them in Israel. Oh, cool.

With the Black Panther Party, the Israeli Black Panthers. You know, like Ruben's family is from, he's one of the founders, and his family's from Morocco. They talked about why they use that iconography and why they use that language. It's because blackness is itself. a kind of metaphor for social misery and oppression globally. So even though they're Mizraim,

if the Betta Israel did it, you'd be like, oh, that makes sense. Or the Ethiopians did it. But it's the Mizraini. You might be from Syria, Yemen, Yemen, or really, probably at that time, Yemen and Morocco were two of the big ones. And it's like, oh, yeah,

we're black to the extent that we are being mistreated, we're being put in these camps. They were in Jerusalem as well. That's why I got to spend time with them. They were in the governorate of Jerusalem, not in the old city. But they're like, we're in Jerusalem, and we have the substandard housing,

substandard health care, and we're going to protest, and we're going to use the language of the Black Panther and the image of the Black Panther as a sign of our marginality. And Golden Maier said they kept her up at night. The one group, they kept her up at night. It wasn't the PLO. Yeah. You know, it wasn't the PFLP. It was them.

It was the Black Panthers of the Israeli Black Panthers. Super fascinating stuff. But again, it complicates how we think and talk about race and racialism. because even though they were Jewish and they were legible to the Jewish Ethiopians never were. The Ethiopians, I mean, many of them had to do forced conversions

or not forced conversions. What do you call it, symbolic conversions, re-conversions. Because as you all know, the audience may not know. The Olim, the people who make Aliyah have to get approved by the rabbin.

And the rabbin it runs immigration. So like, to even make immigration, you have to be legibly Jewish. And they were like, well, I don't know if they're Jewish. And the people in Ethiopia are like, how are we not Jewish? We've never stopped.

Yeah. And they're doing temple worship. They're not even doing rabbinical Judaism, right? They're doing temple worship. So our former religious practice is far older than certainly before the destruction of the Second Temple. So like we're like, oh, gee. In fact, Europeans told me, they said,

when we got here, we were shocked because we didn't know they were white Jews. That's the meaning what they told me. It was like the greatest quote ever. Like, I don't think it used to be white. You know, it's just a different perspective. Yeah. It is, it is, you know, crazy. I mean, at some point I want to get into it with, like, I'd love an Israeli lawyer who talks about the right of return or the law of return within Israel.

Because it's fascinating to me the fact that I myself could. immigrate to Israel and become an Israeli citizen and literally steal the home of a Palestinian and I'm someone who is half Jewish and secular. You know, like... You're half Jewish, Matt?

Yeah, I'm half Jewish. You didn't know this, Daniel? I don't know. It's been really good hosting this post. No, God damn it. This is middle school all over again. I dated someone, I dated a girl girl at camp once. And then I went to her parents' house for Shabbat. And I said, yeah, so I'm half Jewish. And they all looked around and I never saw her again. Don't do it. So you're half Nazi half capo. But, uh, you know, your opposition to Israel is only half self-loathing.

Well, exactly. You know, the, which halves do you hate, man? Uh, honestly, both halves. I'm a piece a piece of shit. I'm a piece of shit, bro. He doesn't discriminate. No, but it is interesting to me to be, you know, half Jewish and secular and still be able. It was actually one of the reasons why I started becoming radicalized on the issue was the fact that I felt like, you know, I had friends who were Palestinian who literally, you know, can trace their, not ancestors, but like their uncle, you know, not even a generation, like one generation away. And yet I had the right to move there and become a full citizen. And it was one of the reasons where I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, this sounds kind of, I'm just going to put

this out there, like a ethno state. And that's what the people have been saying. saying, and other people have been saying, no, that's anti-Semitic lies. So, yeah, it is, it is fascinating in the way that, like, the almost like explicit, uh, ethnic, you know, style racism and, and, you know, that is within the laws of Israel. Right. Yeah. Which, what's your secular laws, too? I mean, you, because you're, I don't know, is your mother, is your mother Jewish? No, it's my father. So I'm not, I'm not technically, uh, Jewish by religion. I'm only Jewish by ancestry. Right. And again,

like when Law of Return was first created, it was based on halakha, right? Right, right. You had to be halakically Jewish in order. And then, it was like, uh, numbers are still looking through right. Let's expand it. Now, I think there's a legitimate moral reason for that, and that is that throughout history, Jew hatred hasn't been based on

halakha. Of course. So, if you were Jewish and Hitler, I know you say never used to Hitler example, but this is a real Hitler example. Like, if Hitler is targeting Jews, Hillary is not looking at whether your mother or your father, if you look at the inquisitions or whatever, they're not asking that. And so there's a way to, you're not consulting the rabbinit. And so it's quite reasonable for a Jewish state if the design of the state is to protect Jewish people to say that we're going to expand the bounds of citizenship, not just to

what the Jewish law says, but to what practices, right? Right. Although there was a significant Jewish pushback by the more conservatives to say, Hitler shouldn't be determining our, our our statecraft or our, or our religious sort of commitments here, right? Like, you're Jewish or you're not. But I would argue that to the extent that we're talking about protecting Jewish people, which it should be expansive. You should be able to be protected by a Jewish state. Everyone should be able to be protected.

Well, to the extent that that's accepting the premise that a state can protect Jews, but yes. That's what I say, not an ethno state, but I'm saying to the extent that we're protecting Jews, I'm not pulling out a book, right? Of course, of course. You know what I mean? Like if Jews are coming up to, if somebody are coming up to kill black people, If a clan member to come up to kill black people, I wouldn't be looking at Ancestry.com. I'd be like, if you're black to the police, if you're black to the clan, you're black.

Come on in, right? So I get that logic. But the problem is, to your point, is the formation of a state at the exclusion of others based on those logics. And to continue to expand the bounds of the ethno state continually, but still at the expense of the indigenous population. That's where you lose me. Right. And what's interesting to me about it, and one of the reasons, reasons I want to talk to someone who's familiar with the specificities of the law of return

is I was looking at like the, you know, different Jewish community numbers worldwide. And it was like one was like Jewish community who are religious Jews, you know, both parents Jews. The other was half Jews. That was like the, you know, expanded Jewish community. And then there's another expanded and then there's another expanded and it was like if you like the last tier was like not Jewish religiously not Jewish by ancestry not you know not Jewish in any any way what's the other movies like what's next yeah I was like I don't know what else you have left the claim I think it's just enjoying Seinfeld I mean I'm not sure like yeah gets cold easily yeah autoimmune disorders I'm not sure but it was like it just got to a point where I was like at some point that you know the via the expanding you know definition of what it is to be eligible for the right of return or the law of return um you know at some point you just go like is it is this definition just going to be like expanded to are you someone who believes that the state should exist.

And that's kind of, I think, what it is. I think that's where this seem to be going in which it becomes explicit that the state is being perpetuated only by those who are already a part of the cult, so to speak. And that's when it reaches peak animal farm, you know, like when when ideology and affiliation and allegiance to power and the power system becomes. the dividing line. Now it's not about, you know, for the benefit of all animals, it's, it's, you know, you serve, you serve the structure that we've built with the ostensible goal of protecting all Jews, but now if you're opposed to it, die Jew, die. Yeah.

Don't quote me out of context. Oh, I already, I'm already cutting this apart. I'm, I'm an APEC op. I'm just here. I'm playing a long game. But yeah, it is the way in which I think Zionism is become kind of a replacement for Judaism, the way it's kind of usurped it in a way, is for me, I think one of the, it's why I think it became very apparent to me what was going on.

I mean, Zionism itself not being a religious, but a secular. thing and the way in which like I would be you know if you're half Jewish on the wrong side and Zionist that like APEC loves you you're good you know how dare how dare you ask you know what parent you know but then it's like if you're a critic of Israel and you know being in public and half Jewish on the wrong side then it's like you're just birthright birthright is the new circumcision yes yeah that's true you know yeah mark we we hear a lot about christian zionism is and we hear obviously a lot about the christian tradition and american black lineage you know is black

christian zionism a thing to what extent do uh black churches either participate or not participate in that whole rigamarole I think if you look at mainline, and mainline Christianity is a complicated thing too because it's always moving and shifting as all faiths are. But I think my short answer would be most black churches aren't talking about this issue.

Right? They're just not. And as they become more and more sort of beholden to Gospels of Prosperity, which are like neoliberal gospels of health and wealth, you know, this just isn't the thing. Right. But there are large churches that are often bought and paid for by lobbying groups, whether it's pro-life lobbying groups, whether it's pro-Israel lobbying groups, you know, whatever the lobbying group, whether it's just a good old-fashioned

Republican Party. And APEC has done an excellent job of infiltrating black churches and black colleges, universities, right, HBCUs and black churches, and doing early interventions. So you'll go to the black church, you'll see trips to the Holy Land. And then you make that trip to the Holy Land. And I've spent a lot of time in Jerusalem watching Holy Land trips, both from West African pilgrims and from Black Americans. And I watch where they go.

I follow them. I guess I feel like it's sounding it out. But I follow them. In a van with the camera and some recording equipment. That's all. But I watch where they go, right? They go to the stations of the cross. They go down via De La Rosa.

They go see Jesus or apparently it's not supposed to be there, right? If you're Christian. And I go and watch all this. stuff happened, and I watch where they don't go. They don't go to the Muslim quarter. They don't go to any of the Arab stores. They're told, don't stop, don't look, don't buy. They don't enter through Damascus.

They enter through the Newgate or Jaffa Gate on the other side, right? And all of these are important things. They bypass all of the markers of marginality, all the markers of Palestinian oppression. They don't see a lot of occupation, right? They hang out in West Jerusalem, not East Jerusalem. They do all of the things and they go and see Jesus in Bethlehem or the manger square.

That's the only West Bank they're going to get or maybe, because even if you go to Hebrew and you're going to go to it's area of C and you're going to see what you need to see and then you'll get right out of there. And so they're strategically positioned to see Jesus and to take in Husbanda, right?

And have no encounter with Palestinian people or Palestinian suffering. And so you come back from the church I think even more ensconced in kind of the the Israeli narrative, which is already anchored by the kind of misrepresentation of the of the of the of the old testament Bible because black people have always appealed to the book of Exodus. We've always been Old Testament Exodus folk because we've likened our journey in the wilderness of North America to the sojourn of the Jews who was taking

freedom after after being in Egypt. And so we sing one of your songs at the Passover Seder. go down Moses is like a big hit at a lot of Jewish songs I was thinking Frankie Beverly before I let go but both are solid songs and

but yeah you say no but like you're exactly right and so there's a connection we see ourselves as the children of Israel symbolically right the nation of Islam

did that and saw that right so that's just a staple so we're attached to Exodus which allows us to imagine Israel not just as not just as

as old school kingdom, right? Or Canaan, that's his old school land. But we think of, we link that Israel to the state of Israel, to the nation state of Israel. And that conflation. And then if you're any kind of evangelical Christians, as you all know, this whole stage play ends with Jesus coming back and forcibly converting or killing full. Jews being forcibly converted or killed. Yeah, that's the bummer part. Right. It's the terrible end, right? To the movie. And so, so, so, so, Christian eschatology in general is bound up in anti-Semitic. Let me not say that.

Let me say that differently. Yeah. The evangelical, the right-wing extremist evangelical Christian eschatology is bound up in a very particular and problematic reading of scripture that then leads to Jewish suffering in their sort of imaginations. And so I'm not cascading Christianity. I'm saying just the evangelicals have it messed up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so they have a material investment, an economic investment, and they also have a spiritual investment. in this Zionist narrative. And so the black church and the black schools, they get to them early. And it's easy to convince somebody to believe something that's in their best interest anyway. Yeah. Right.

Well, Mark, I know that you have to take off. I really appreciate you coming on the show. Everything I've been seeing you've been doing is fantastic, man. I appreciate you guys. I appreciate your humor on social media and I like the show

and I'd love to come back man Have I been your most moral guest? I think you're I mean top five Top five most moral You know like Yeah I listen we've we've had a lot of great guests You know

Hitler I'm just kidding I've got to be above him Yeah you're way above Hitler You've been you've been one of our most oral guests. I'll put it that way. Yes. What have you been hearing? What have you been hearing? I just

I know, I actually just meant that, I mean, I know how that sounds, but pound for pound in terms of just pound for pound oral, you've heard it here first. I'm at the top. Yeah, just rounding. I'm trying to compliment you. Just, just the, just the, the density,

I'm not even going to try. It's so dense. It's so dense. You're dropping gems. You're dropping knowledge. You're educating us. You're uplifting our show. I love you guys, man.

I'll talk to you soon. Okay, dokey. Producer Adam says pound for pound, the most top. Oh, the most, the most, the least loads refused. That's right. This guy does not refuse loads. This guy. Mark, thank you for coming on.

And if you're hearing this, you know, post-script discussion, we do love you, despite all the talk of loads. Before we get out of here, first, I think we'll take a quick commercial break. And then when we come back, I want to play some Hezbara and talk to you about that. Are you ready? Are you ready? Hell yeah. All right. Stick around.

We'll be right back. and we're back okay uh great interview with uh mark lamont hill um daniel you don't you don't mind that i'm half jewish on the wrong side do you right you're not going to be like no the camp at middle school the one the girl who stopped i'm going to be i'm going to be the kid and I always relied on the kindness of these kids at my own summer camp. I'm going to be the kid who's friends with the mean popular kids

and we'll make fun of you or at least we'll laugh at them making fun of you but then in the off hours when I see you crying on the side, I'll come and I'll check in and I'll let you know and I remember when what was her name? Megan, Megan

well, I shouldn't say it. Let me, I don't, don't want to, you know, she may still be out there. God willing, she's I'll call her Megan Feinstein. She came over and she said, Daniel, you know, I know it's really hard right now that you, like, you don't fit in. Like, basically, there are, there are people who are cool and you're not cool. But one day, you won't be weird and you'll, like, I'm not exactly cool myself, but I'm cooler than I was. I used to be in your position. So if you just hang you, so that's who I would be for you. Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah. That's the best. That is,

I think we knew the same Megan. This sounds like a very similar experience I've had. Actually, I think the technical term for that kind of camper is a capo. Yes, that's right. That's a working for the oppressor. That's right. That's right. Okay. So to talk about some Hasbara recently. I want to talk about this line that's been going on. And we talked about a little bit with Omar yesterday, but the idea that Hamas is ultimately responsible for, you know, the genocide that's going on and that Hamas is actually doing a genocide of Hamas. I don't know why, but I just got Walter Peck in my head being like, they caused an explosion. I don't know Walter Peck.

Oh, wow, yes. The EPA guy, you know, like just blaming the Ghostbusters for all the shit that happened. Anyway, I love you know the first and last name of a guy who I just remember as the dude who said, or who got told he had no dick by Bill Murray. Played by William Atherton. Should I know him? No, but that was the actor. I'm glad you knew that. But so the line of Hamas is responsible.

ultimately for everything is like something you see everywhere. I mean, every single has bars who's been saying it over and over. It is like the way you get away with murder is to say, actually, if you think about it through, you know, through the laws of physics, this is actually Hamas's fault. And it was bad. It was Hamas. That's right. And it leaked over into the world, my favorite world, the world of comedians. So, Eliza Schlesinger put out a post and I think she deleted it shortly after, in which she explained this point. And I'm going to play a little bit of Eliza here. And the terrorists would say, we don't care if they get killed, which is what Sinwar has been saying since day one. It was in my last post. It's documented. He doesn't care about Palestinian lives in the way that the rest of the world seems to care about them. So one would think, well, perhaps we should go after the terrorist.

that are fighting this proxy war using Palestinians. But instead, you want to take out Israel, the only democracy, in the entire Middle East. So once again, free Palestine from Hamas, because that is your problem. And it soon will be the rest of the Western world's problem. What? So a lot going on. Yes, great analysis. Now, Eliza is someone who was louder at the beginning of, you know, the war, quote unquote,

and then has been quiet once the, you know, the pushback, I think, for her, got to a degree where she's like, well, it's okay, I'll just keep these views to myself. But this is not to specifically pick on Eliza, but this is to pick on this level of thinking. the idea that Hamas is therefore responsible for all everything that is happening to the Palestinians to me is like is the the most victim-blamey thing that I can possibly like it's it's I don't know how people can say it with a straight face without thinking of themselves like wait am I making an argument for domestic abuse? You know what I mean?

Like there's... Well, or at the very least, like, because you could say, well, Hamas aren't the main victims of the genocide, right? It's the... So, but it's like, it's making the argument for, like, beating your wife's kids, like, beating your wife's kids, like, beating your step kids. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a way of saying, you know, like, you know, if, uh, fucking, you know, you know, know, if you, if you don't stop asking for it, then aren't you really to blame for that black guy, a wife of a cop? You know what I mean? You know, I found myself in a very, very strange and

awkward position a few months ago in Los Angeles. I was at an evening of, um, mostly Arab and Palestinian people. And, you know, I don't, I won't name any names because I don't even remember them. But the organizers were, it was, it turned out to be kind of almost like a, an intervention. And there were, there were several Palestinians there who were trying to convince their fellow Palestinians that they should be blaming Hamas for everything. Yeah. Like, they were like strongly anti-Hamas Palestinians. And up to a point, I was willing to listen. I'm like, okay, internal critique, dissent.

let me not fall into simplistic thinking either. There's a lot of people in Palestine and outside of Palestine who have been critical of Hamas and the Islamification of the pro-Palestine struggle for a long time. And even if I want to pin that on Israel saying that they didn't want a secular moderate partner in the PLO, you know, interesting to hear Palestinians criticizing their own and all that. But at a certain point, I found myself in this odd position

of like vociferously arguing with this one particular guy who it just struck me had gone all the way over to like sympathy for the devil and utter victim blaming and it was this bizarre bizarre thing I'm like am I allowed to argue with this guy I mean he was actually born in Gaza right it it it was that that sentiment isn't limited to Jewish Zionists. Oh, sure. You know, it...

And it kind of like brings up something that I think, you know, Mark was talking about a bit, which is, you know, the idea of, you know, the idea that there are, you know, anti-Black racism within Palestinian society as well, you know, as within the Zionist Israeli society and kind of how that is something that whether or not it is inconvenient to the narrative to talk about exists and should be, you know, brought up. But to me, I look at it as like within the context of everything, it is kind of I can't help but see it as a clearly just an argument for collective punishment where you can't help. but blame Hamas for every single thing and it is a way to, you know, skirt any kind of, you know, accountability yourself. But it's also a way to say like, hey, if these people, you know, don't want to get genocided, then maybe they should have thought about that before they voted for Hamas or maybe they should, you know, should be yelling about Hamas. It's like it's this attempt to, you know, place Israel is now the people who are freeing Palestine,

which I find to be like the most disgusting thing. Because at the end of the day, even if they were to get rid of Hamas, let's say that happened. That does not actually free Palestine from anything because occupation still exists. Apartite still exists. And, you know, that is those in and of themselves are morally abhorrent things. You know what I'm saying? And once Hamas has gone, Israel's made clear what it wants to do with Gaza. It wants to, you know, dig the whole thing up, turn it over and turn it into, I don't know, a resort or something.

There's also something funny, implicit in that argument, which is like, Sinwar knew full well how Israel was going to respond, and he did it anyway, which means he doesn't care about Palestinian lives, which means it's his fault. But look at what that takes for granted. He knew, you know, you knew we were genocidal maniacs. forced us to act on our genocidal mania it's on you bro yeah yeah yeah it's on you you knew that we were going to do this shit to you uh and in fact um i have another video i want to play of uh just a just a horrifying disgusting uh liberal zionist who's out here just spreading you know oh i hate this guy yeah this is just one of just one of the worst guys here he is i'm so sick and tired of all of you out there talking about israel's doing a genocide

But, you know, all of you are just falling for Hamas' trap, okay? This was all Hamas' secret evil plan this whole time, was to do October 7th, and that would get us so mad that we would go do a genocide, okay? This was all part of the plan. Step 1, do October 7th, step 2, die from genocide. Step 3, everybody mad. And I've seen this kind of thing before, all right? This isn't new to me. My dad is a cop, and many times he has been forced to use violence on people who were clearly just asking for it, especially like my mom. This is what Hamas is making us do.

We don't want to do this. They made us kill their women. They made us kill their children. They made us starve them. They made us go into the rubble of what was once a Palestinian girl's bedroom and make a TikTok of us wearing her lingerie. This is all part of their plan to make us look like we're weird, but we're not weird because we know it's them who is making us do it. It's so true. It's so true. Yeah.

They just left those those canes and wheelchairs out in the street. Taunting. Just daring those Israeli soldiers to take movie pictures with them. You knew we were going to take a photo with it. You knew we were going to do a bit. It's like, it's like, you know,

it's with you. It's like leaving a little wordplay opportunity open for you. You can't help yourself, you know? They know that Israeli soldiers are just suckers for whimsical. Yeah, whimsical genocide photos that, you know, they look funny because people are laughing, you know. That's how you know something is lighthearted when people are laughing while they're doing it. Yeah, I mean, are there pictures of Nazis with like, I know, you know, at the Auschwitz Museum, you got the big pile of shoes. but are there pictures of like

them trying on the shoes? Wearing the shoes on their hands and doing a fashion show. Doing a fashion show. Yeah. Wow, check out this drip. Oh, I'm dripping now. No, they saved it for their cabarets, you know?

That's right. They saved it for their night. They didn't do it out on the fucking field of battle. Yeah, exactly. They took that shit inside, like gentlemen. I have some dignity. Yeah, it is just... Rise to the level of dignity and nobility of the air.

The SS. Yeah. In closing, I find the argument in and of itself to be repugnant and repugnant because it is also wielded by people who consider themselves to be like, you know, liberals. Because it is just such a, I think, transparent way of, you know, changing the accountability so that you don't ever. have to feel bad about your choice to believe and support Israel and everything it does. You can actually, you can watch a dead baby being held by their parents, and you can feel justified in the fact that, you know, it's not your fault or the fault of the state that you support. Exactly. Yeah. Pretty gross stuff.

But, you know, it's not gross. You. Well, it's not gross, man. You're not gross. You're a lovely guy. And I thank you for being the co-hosts of the most moral podcast. Because, you know. I blessed the day that you looked at me and said,

I can't do this anymore alone. Help me. I'm going insane. I need a full Jew. I need someone. both parents yeah no I need someone who's fully circumcised

not just on one side yeah I just half of my dick is and the skin flap is just fucking flapping in the wind I need someone who's got no skin flap I'm talking just dry dick all times I don't know what I'm saying anymore

help me out I want you to come thank you that was Benjamin Netanyahu oh god as we as we've as we slowly but surely transition into an a.m. Drive time talk show. Listen, that's where this is going. Come on. This is where it's going. Tough neighborhood. It's tough neighborhood. It's Bad Hasbara with the Leibtard

and Most Moro Matte in the morning. You're good. All right. Daniel Monti, thank you so much for being here. Thank you to Mark Lamont Hill for coming on and talking with us here over at Bad Hasbara. please support us Patreon.com slash bad hasbara email us. We got some good guests coming up too which we're not going to tell you about but next two weeks are going to be fucking baller. Yeah, this is a lot of fire guests

and I'm like yeah I'm like oh shit we got to we got to get more we got more song parodies done bro we got to get we got to entertain this audience am I right? Crazy Jews. Thank you.

Uh, email us, Bannisbarra at gmail.com. And all right, Daniel, take us on out of here with a, until next time, from the river to the sea. Mark Lamont Hill was great on BET and is great on, uh, this current stuff. All right. Yeah, I blanked, man. Me too. I always forget. I should really prepare one.

Maybe Adam has one Nope, he doesn't Okay You're good I'm not good All right From the river To the sea

Let's all go listen to BDP There we go Because you know It's June teens It's just go put on some Some Some black music There I said it

Yeah Yeah there's nothing wrong We're saying it It's black music We all love it folks we love it all right we're struggling yes help jumping jacks was us pushups was us godmaga us all karate us taking molly us michael jackson us yamaha keyboards us jarja mix not us andor was us keith ledger joker us endless red success happy meals was us mcdonalds was us being happy us Us, eating food, us, breathing air, us, drinking water, us. We invented all that shit.