Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - Bad Hasbara 44: Daven on the Haters, with Katie Bogen

Episode Date: August 9, 2024

We are joined by psych phd student, sex and trauma therapist, and anti-zionist jewish content creator Katie Bogen for a conversation about sexual trauma and activism, and how Josh Shapiro not being VP is somehow antisemitic.Hey, people in Chicago who want to see Matt do stand up! We ADDED A LATE SHOW to the stand up night at the Lincoln Lodge in Chicago. Please buy tickets.August 20th Live Stand Up TicketsSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

You know, someday, Matt, and that day is not today, but someday that soundboard thing is going to get a little repetitive. No, that day is definitely not today. It'll never get repetitive. Unless we diversify. That's right. Someday, we'll get new soundboards. He's just got to say new things.

New clips. All right. Mind if I dovin? Yeah, please dovin. I'm not going to do that. Davin on all the haters. Daven on the haters. title of the episode.

Bo, Bo, Bo, Bo, Bo, Bo, Bo, Bo, Brup. Welcome. Too bad Hasbara. The world's most moral podcast, and it isn't even close. I know. There's not, what's the second most moral? The second most moral podcast? Hmm, if I had to Joe Rogan experience. And then right under that, the daily.

Right under that, that one New York Times podcast where they did a series where they talked to an ISIS guy and the whole thing turned out to be a hoax. That is the fourth most moral podcast in the world. The fifth one would be a docu series on the moral majority. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then right under that. Dave Prottnoy. Who's Dave Prottnoy, Adam? Or do you want to check your typos before you pipe up there?

do you want to maybe put in the extra work there to spell check your little jokes we like reading your content at him but prognoy you spell check come on haven't you read one philip roth it's not protenois complaint prochnoy didn't fuck a liver just kidding that was a funny joke out it was great pork nor his pizza reviews sorry i don't know what i don't know what possessed me to moralize this is the world's most moralizing podcast that's right give us five stars a review on all of the apps in which you can do that. Also want to make a quick shout out, of course, to our wonderful producer, Adam 11.

And finally, he makes so few errors. No, he usually, you know, his spelling, immaculate, you know. impeccable, unimpeachable. Hey, listen, this is, we don't expect perfection from anyone. It's progress, not perfection. It's amdavanel. I don't know. Venal? Oh, that's, he's, that's, that's, he's, that's, he's, he's, that's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, that's, you know, you're, you know, you're, you know, you're one of those smart guys.

Do you have any cool, uh, any cool, uh, anagrams for your name, Matt? Uh, no, I don't, but I, uh, my, like, username when I'm playing Call of Duty is fat dweeb. Okay, that's good. Because it rhymes with Matt Leeb. It beautifully. Yes. I mean, MF Doom would be, would be hard pressed to come up with a rhyme, a double rhyme that I'd, mine anagrams as tamed denial oh i like that tame denial it's a cool yeah yeah katie backstage is our guest backstage is saying libe has got bile right in it if you if you rearrange that's true yeah it's right there yeah i'm bile uh just a quick announcement that uh you know i've talked about this uh you know chicago shows that we're doing on the 19th and 20th the 20th is going to be stand up at the lincoln lodge at 7 p.m. We have added a late show at 9 p.m.

So there will be another stand-up show right after. If you haven't been able to get tickets, you can now get tickets to the 9 p.m. show. Ticket link in bio. Bye, bye, buy. Tickets, tickets, tickets. Patreon.com slash bad has barra. There is a bonus episode on the feed right now. Patreon exclusive interview with Jacob Berger.

Great. It's a really great episode. Man, did I fuck up? Because I was so late that I missed the whole thing. And I had to profusely apologize to our guest. And, you know, it was such a good interview. I wish I had been there. He is so thoughtful.

And so, like, honest and very heartfelt. But then, of course, you did come by after the commercial break. And you and I did some dope breakdowns of some outlandish canoe your caneset. Yeah, we looked at a crazy. a crazy news report from one of the rape riots in Israel on Israeli TV. That's right. So you don't want to miss it, folks. You know, honestly, Matt, I'm feeling, like, I feel like today we became a real podcast.

For real? Because we put out something that was Patreon exclusive. That's right. I know. I know. Like, we actually withheld, you know, because normally it's like, join Patreon. You'll get it a bit early. And here it is.

Yeah, right. Right, right. No way. No more. No more Bush League stuff like that. Now there's consequences for not signing. Exactly. Now there are tears to being a bad has bar a piggy.

You know, you can be, you know, a freeloading hog or you can be a pay pig. And if you're a pay pig, we love you even more. As tears go by. That's right. Before we move on, I just want to say one thing that I saw in the chat, not just the chat, it was a Reddit post. We've talked a lot about how we interrupt. And, you know, people sometimes would be like, hey, white. No, but hold on, but hold on, but hold on because for the first time ever, somebody defended us in a way in which now I can call anybody who says that we interrupt too much anti-Semitic.

And I'll tell you why. There's apparently something that is called, let me see if I can find it here, cooperative overlap. Yes, I've heard of this. Yes. Is it interrupting or cooperative overlap from the article? It says, cooperative overlap has been described as part of a culturally Jewish style of conversation, particularly common in the New York area, a parenthetical. In fact, I first heard this conversation style labeled by a Jewish New Yorker.

But it is also common in other cultural contexts, such as Eastern Europeans, Mediterranean people, Indian people, South Americans, Africans, and Arab cultures, to name a few. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen and everyone else. You're anti-Semitic if you don't like us interrupting. I'm sorry, I don't make the rules. I find them on Reddit. That's right.

Okay. So let us. Don't interrupt our interrupting. That's right. Exactly. Exactly. We're doing cooperative overlap. We're helping by stopping literal professional journalists and experts from talking

so we can make a Ghostbusters joke. We are an overlap kibbutz. Oh, shit. No, that's, no, no. I take that back. take that not that not that not that we don't get down like that but still we're very cooperative okay i just wanted to point that out and now we're going to bring in our guest our guest and this is a bio i'm reading from uh her instagram our next guest is a novelist a jewess a psych phd student

a trauma therapist a guy sweating emoji uh and then water emoji researcher i think that's sex It's got something to do with the sex thing, yeah. Yes. A LGBTQ plus activist, cottage core rabble rouser, and is a wonder on TikTok and on Instagram, ladies and gentlemen and everyone else, please welcome to the podcast, Katie Bogan. Hey, if it isn't the American Jewish girl.

Katie, the American Jewish girl, reporting for duty. How you doing? It's so nice to see all. I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for having me. Stope to have you on. It's great to see you too. I've been watching your content for a few months now and it has been a breath of fresh air. You tackle, you know, Zionism and the consequences of Zionism on the psyche in a way that I think it's very empathetic and not, you know, I don't want to say it's not off-putting. Not that it can't, but things on the internet can be. grading and off-putting. Yeah, but I mean, in Katie's case, it's downright on pudding. Yes, yes. It's on pudding. Like, it's fucking

charming is what it is. Yes, yes it is. And yeah. And I have to say, I'll say, it's a much needed breath of sweet feminine fresh air on this on this sausage sausage factory.

I'm delighted to be the exception to the rule. Thank you very much. We're trying to to be better. We're trying to hashtag, fix yourselves. Yeah. You may feel like a token right now,

but if you just, if you go about five weeks into the future, you won't be because you're going to be part of a cohort. You're the, you're the vanguard, really. Yes, you're the vanguard. Breaking the glass ceiling.

Breaking the glass ceiling. Breaking the glass like at the wedding. Exactly. Which one of you am I marrying? Let's figure this out right now. You're marrying the podcast. Excellent. You're main in the audience.

voted even better they will be thrilled to hear that yes uh yeah no we we are delighted to have you on you are uh absolutely breaking up the ridiculous male energy that we've had you know here's the thing about booking a podcast is you just kind of you know are like yeah you reach out you DM like hey come on the podcast and then a month goes by and you're like it's been all dudes for weeks now uh but anyways that's not the point the point isn't self-criticism What is this? Communist China? No.

What is this? Jewish culture? A feminist re-education camp? What is this? A struggle session? What is this? Some Feminazi stuff? Like, come on.

Katie, you've only been on the podcast for three minutes and you're already throwing us into a masculinity crisis. And you haven't even said anything. Can we shut up and let her talk, please? Exquisite. No, this is my role, actually, to just sit here and watch you all cogitatively melt down. We can't help it. I'm here to prompt. an identity crisis for you. You've done a great job of it. Thank you. Speaking of identity

crises, segue into the type of content that you do. When did you start openly like talking about Zionism, you know, with your, with your audience? So interestingly, my very first post coming out, coming out in support of Palestine as a Jewish woman was in 2014 after I had gone on a birthright trip. And I posted on Facebook back when everybody used Facebook. And I got a phone call from my father at work. I was working in the sociology department at Clark University as an administrative assistant. And so I'm in the front office and my dad calls me and he yelled at me so loudly over the phone that I had to hold the phone away from my ear. And my boss in the next room overheard this conversation and came in and was like, who's shouting at you? And I was like, my dad just

found out that I support the liberation of Palestine. And that's when I was like 19, 20 years old. Yeah. And so I've been posting incrementally over the last decade, really, and quite a bit in 2021 during the last sort of massive bombardment of Gaza. And then October 7th happened. And I was just like, okay, this is, this is what I feel the ethical pull to talk about now. And it totally changed my social media landscape yeah i mean i can imagine that the audience that you were speaking to pre-october 7th in the audience post-october 7th was different did did you get pushback once you kind of started talking about this yes and i've gotten pushback as i've actually tried to wed or weave my content a little bit more intentionally so i i work as a sex researcher and i'm being

trained as a sex therapist for trauma survivors. So I work mostly with people who've experienced some form of sexual violence to enable them to have joyful, consensual, fully embodied intimate lives. That's what my platform really was before October 7th. So if you go to my TikTok, my name on TikTok is sexuality scholar. And I was talking about, you know, pleasure activism and all these other things. And so I think it was a shock for my then audience to have such a hard pivot. But now, as I try to weave some more of my academic work and my, you know, sex research scholarship through both of my pages, through my Instagram and my TikTok, there's a lot of responses to it that find it, I think, quite distasteful.

And that's been, that's been an interesting landmine situation to navigate. Yeah, it's, it's, it must be very challenging when your public persona. bifurcates into two things, even though it's coming from the same person. And then people, you know, cithect or connect with one or the other. I mean, when you and I met back in the fall, and I have a sort of follow-up question of you about this, but I remember you and I were both tapped to be part of an anti-Zionist Hanukkah thing, eight of us were, you know, and I was new on the scene of being a content monger or whatever we were called content pusher it's a monger we're mongers we're mongers we're

like fish mongers but our fish is you know little little jokes that's exactly right lovely and and often starts to smell um and uh yeah you you you were catching some flak at the time for talking about the role of of pleasure in keeping ourselves sane as we live through a time of unspeakable vicarious trauma, witnessing unspeakable direct trauma. And I remember just really being struck by how well you responded to all that and made a really compelling case that, look, if this part of my content isn't for you, it's not for you. But to me, it's important, and I'm going to keep saying it. Yeah, that was wild.

Matt, I'm not sure how familiar you are with this situation, but I was part of the this panel that Daniel was talking about of all we want for Hanukkah is a free Palestine. And I was, you know, we were talking about self-care and how you sort of maintain sanity and groundedness in the context of global evil and atrocity. And I talked about how in the context of the COVID-19 epidemic in 2020, we're all in our home with spending all this time alone with our bodies. And I had been, you know, going to sex therapy myself as a way to sort of prepare for this doctoral program and seeing what I could learn. And one of the things I initiated again in 2020 was a daily orgasm practice of like a way

of getting in the body because when you are disconnected from the body and so alienated from the somatic experience, you can no longer feel or label your emotions because so much of the wisdom we have about our emotions comes from our embodied state of is my heart racing am I sweating or my hands tingling? Is the hair on the back of my neck standing up? like, what do I feel? And when you're witnessing trauma over and over and over again, you learn to disconnect frequently from the body as a means of survival.

And so I started this daily orgasm practice and brought it up as an example during this panel of ways to get into the body and included, you know, praying, eating a really luscious meal, taking a bath, brushing your hair, putting on body lotion, whatever it is to you that forces you to feel something sensory because drawing that thread back to your body over and over and over again is going to help you have more emotional awareness,

literacy, and be able to move through feelings. And this clip was cut into like a 90-second soundbite and shared on the internet of this white Jewish girl is getting off to Palestinian death and genocide. Oh, my God. And it was shared by like US state senators on TikTok. Like the internet ripped me apart in a way that I was not anticipating

and I had to do the sort of intellectual quandary thing of, okay, do I apologize and self-flagellate and say this was a horrible, disgusting thing to say and you're all right, I'm a wicked, evil, insensitive person and white woman, and I will do better. Yes, yes, like I'm so sorry for everything I've ever done. Adam wrote the female orgasm is not Jewish.

no uh the the female orgasm is for everyone yeah um and i had to make the decision of you know do i try to maintain this sort of good girl good girl purity oriented reputation online or do i say like no this is this is a part of my research and what i've learned about trauma treatment like this is actually an area of expertise for me now right i'm getting my phd in this um and i think there's there's wisdom to be learned here and wisdom that didn't originate from me like adrian Marie Brown, this black feminist activist who wrote, who wrote pleasure activism and has really taught people about the role of embodied pleasure and maintaining movements for social justice. Like, I wasn't the first person to say anything like this, but that has been, again, a land of

minds. So I found that so, and do you mind if I just, please, dig into this a little bit more, man. Conversational lab. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. and may the best interruption win. I found it so instructive at the time because it was the first time it really,

I saw that one of the aspects of speaking up and putting your voice out there, I mean, for the first few months, I was just blown away by the positive feedback and the gratitude and the thanks. People were hungry for, especially and inordinately Jewish voices. We had an unfair kind of we got extra credit,

extra valor for just being Jewish. Not being genocidal, which is good for us. It's kind of an anti-Semitic handicap, but that's Israel's fault, not anyone else's false. I would respond to all those people with, you're right, I am amazing for not wanting an entire group of people to die.

I'm a good man. And not using the death of my grandparents to justify that desire. Exactly. You know, exactly. Good for us learning something after age 13. Yeah. But but but what came with it eventually is that people develop a certain version of you, a certain idea of you, you know, and it's happened to, you know, musicians and artists and anyone who, who develops a public. And I had to deal with that myself too. Like at one point I sort of came to your defense and people were mad at me about that, calling me a, a savior. and all this kind of shit.

At other points, I would say stuff that just, and the question for me is, well, yeah, is the right thing to do as an activist to try and walk some kind of line? But then I actually realized, partly through your example, there's no way of doing that. If you play that game, you lose,

because people will say, for instance, listen to Palestinians. And then the question is, which Palestinians? You go into the comments on your videos, and there were all kinds of people saying, I'm Palestinian, I completely got what Katie was saying,

you all are twisting it, I see value in it, or I'm Palestinian and you know what, and I'm Muslim and this isn't really for me, it's not my vibe, but she's speaking to a different audience and so and so forth. So the expectation that I should treat the Palestinians as some kind of monolith and use a particular subset of them who are going to be offended by this as the standard for who they all are. I was like, you know what, actually, that's not, I'm not going to play that game. serving anyone. I'm not freeing anything by doing that. How can I free, free Palestine if I'm not free, free myself to just say what I think and stand on my whatever and let people disagree. And if I make a mistake, I'll correct it. But I'm not going to grovel and I'm not going to do that.

Because I just didn't think it ends up being performative. And that's my soapbox. And I wonder what you have to say about that. Yeah, I entirely agree. I think I didn't want to, obviously, I'm not going to out anyone who's seeking help or support. And people know that I'm being trained as a trauma therapist that sexual functioning is one of my areas of expertise and that video came out in my responses to to those you know some of the backlash and i had tons of people in my dms saying you know i'm Palestinian and i'm living in the diaspora and i have not been able to have sex with my husband for months and every time i experience pleasure in the body i have this immense feeling of guilt what do i do and so i was telling people you know i i can't thereifies online i can say what i know

of the literature and encourage you to go see a therapist who is indeed your own. But we know that exposure therapy, like there's a logic to exposure therapy. And so if you're experiencing something that is literally safe, but your body is interpreting it as threatening, you have to sit in that feeling for long enough for your stress response cycle to resolve. And so if you start experiencing pleasure in the body, say you're putting lotion on your hands or brushing your hair or masturbating or whatever it is that you're doing, and something in your body is telling you you should feel guilt, you should feel shame, you should feel

fear like this is something that's going to cause you to panic. If you stay in that experience and keep an eye on your distress, you will see the distress initially spike of, oh, this is a bad thing that I'm doing, this is a dangerous thing that I'm doing, whatever, and then you stay and it comes down and you get to watch that stress response cycle resolve. And that's teaching your body that, you know, by experience and pleasure, you're not actually being chased by lion you're not doing something disgusting and awful you're not a horrible person it's going to be okay if you let yourself feel this and so i really felt like i was able to disseminate um some research and some clinical wisdom to folks who really needed support and i wasn't going to screen grab those

conversations and say to the haters like you know you're you're giving me all of this flack and yet i have Palestinian folks in my inbox who really need someone to validate that they deserve to have an intimate life right now and that in fact pleasure and joy are these forms of necessary resistance to remind you of what you're fighting for for other people like everyone should be able to access pleasure as a as a self-soothing resource as a resource to maintain their well-being when the world is on fire um so that's my soapbox and i think it's all ridiculous in terms of like really what they're mad at here is like the most bad faith reading of all time of a out-of-context clip i mean what kind of insanity would lead you to believe that what you're seeing is that is like

oh yeah this person's masturbating like to you know dead palaces like you have to be already a little bit off your rocker to be very clear there were a lot of white people in that outraged on behalf of the palestinians cohort yes yes yes that's my favorite cohort of commenter is uh outraged white person uh speaking over other people The as an allies. Yes, the as an allies, exactly. So I just want to circle back to your birthright trip because I have a similar experience in terms of like birthright for me

was the big eye-opener. Was that for you, was it the trip itself that was the eye-opener? Or was it just after you went that time you kind of started doing research? Or what was it about the trip? I think it really started before. So I grew up in very small town. Connecticut. My family was one of three Jewish families in our town, and then we had our rabbi's family. So my town was like 99% Christian, 98% white. Like just, I learned almost

nothing of the world growing up in this area of Connecticut. But my family took a lot of pride in being like sort of progressive New Englanders. And I grew up in the aftermath and sort of in the context of 9-11. I was born in 1993. Did you ever, did you have a rabbi who spoke with like a New England, like Puritan, like, accent? Not even a little. I can't do it, but I'd love to hear that. I'd love to hear the Hebrew prayers spoken, like, I don't know, Captain Ahab or something. My rabbi, Rabbi Eisenbach, it was a Hasidicabad that I grew up going to because that was

the only Jewish organizing space in my town. So, no, the Shabbad was not very waspy, you can imagine. That would be great. Yeah, that'd be wild. But I think my family took up a lot of... Matzabal Chada. Yeah. Perfect. Exactly that.

My family took a lot of pride in being, like, good, progressive New Englanders who, in the aftermath of 9-11 would sort of finger-wag at anti-Muslim sentiment and finger-wag at this sort of wave of hatred and say, like, you know, we don't treat Muslim people that way. We don't condemn an entire religious group. We don't generalize folks. And then I had loved ones coming back from birthright. And around when I was 17, 18, I started getting more involved in progressive activism, and I heard language referring to Palestine for the first time. Like I was really not familiar with what Palestine was as this space, who Palestinians were as a community. This was brand new information for me. And so as my loved one started coming back from birthright, I would ask the question, what did you learn about Palestine?

What did you learn about Palestinians when you were there? And I remember having this conversation, again, with like a good progressive Jew. And she said to me, oh, you mean the terrorists when I asked this question about Palestinians. And I had never heard her use the word terrorists to describe an entire group of people before. And I was so stricken by that use of language. And I was going to this liberal arts school in Massachusetts for college, and they had this great, really progressive political science department, a Holocaust and Genocide Studies program.

And I knew I was going to go on birthright. was so concerned seeing folks come back from birthright seemingly brainwashed that i wanted to be prepared and so i took four very intentional courses on the region and i wanted to get sort of balanced perspective so i took jewish experience suffering and evil in the jewish tradition middle east politics and arab-israeli conflict and i was also taking peripheral courses in comparative political science and holocaust and genocide studies um god you used your undergrad studies far better than I did. I was like,

I need to dig out this information that people have been hiding from me. Like somehow I have to circumnavigate this silence in my community. So I took all this course. Sorry. He wrote suffering. Suffering and evil

in the Jewish tradition is a course on child rearing. You know, I'll get back to you on that as soon as I have kids. He's right. We'll report back. Oh, he's right.

But yeah, I tried to prepare myself before I went on the birthright trip, and then by the time I left, I was already staunchly pro-Palestine. I had learned enough in my coursework to know that what I had been socialized into was just buckets and buckets of bullshit and silencing. Could they tell when you were there? Were they on to you? Could they ever? Yes, I scrapped with my tour guide the entire time. I had a tour guide named Ayal, who was a veteran of the second Lebanon war. And you mean the one where they got their asses kicked? Ha ha ha ha. Yeah. Yes.

And so talked all the time about how he was an objective reporter on what it was like to navigate this conflict, genocide, ethnic cleansing, apartheid regime, et cetera. And I just fought with him the entire time. He would refer to all Palestinians as Hamas or as terrorists. And I would say you have a group, yes, like you have a group of impressionable 18 to 26-year-old diaspora Jews who have come to you thinking that you're going to descend. some wisdom and instead you're spitting propaganda in their faces like this is inexcusable what about settlements what about the water crisis Israel has this incredible desalination technology they've been able to farm in the Negev why is there a water crisis in Gaza like explain this to me as if I am a toddler please and and he would just say terrorists terrorists terrorists you know spit

out this has all these talking points and by the end of the trip he would give us another lecture on Israeli Zionist supremacy and we would leave and the other folks on the trip would come up to me and say, okay, now we've heard what Ayal has to say. What did you learn in your classes? And we were pulling up Google Scholar and Googling sort of Palestinian history on this trip. And I feel very grateful that some of the folks that I met there are still incredibly vocal pro-Palestine anti-Zionist Jews. So we built this little community. But at the end of the trip, I thought this guy was going to say, fuck you, I never want to see you again. And instead, he, like, invited me back to Israel several times.

I was just going to ask, at what point did he give up on trying to Hezbarize you? And did he, at what point did he try to seduce you as the final, the final overture? So seduction is obviously, like, a main theme of birthright. They bring all these sexy Israeli soldiers. And they're like, look, you could have Jewish babies with these gun-toting macho people. And I'm like, oh, not my type, but thank you. It's, by the way, I just want to say, it's so, it's one of the rudest things that they do because they also are like, not only are they just like, here's us objectifying all of our, you know, hottest female soldiers, but they're also just like, and look at all these beta male slubs from the diaspora who are just like, oh, please shoot me, shoot me with your gun, please. like the expectation that that we're just so beta that we're just going to be like it's time

to uproot my life and move what i find terrible you know they say you know porn ruins men's brains and yeah yeah yeah well birthright has has ruined an entire generation yeah of of young jewish men they can't come unless the person giving them head has an m16 that's exactly right it's sad for them it's oh no it's my kink um kink's name not King's shame you know that's right let's play with power um anyway how did we get here yeah so i really do think i mean birthright is obviously sold as this like oh you can make jewish babies with the hottest iteration of jews possible and the iteration of jews with the most power who can protect you and it's all based on this like gender essentialism biological essentialism

privileging and violence come to israel put the u in eugenics yes exactly that yeah um yes use your uterus to uphold this regime we love it yeah um super normal super normal thing to ask anybody is uh is to use their DNA as a cudgel against an entire group of people yeah and don't worry men men if you die on the battlefield we will be there to extract your seed we've got you a needle needle immediately um yeah i mean i i do think well i the 18 to 26 year old age limitation is so transparent It's like your frontal lobe is not fully developed. You're reproductively viable. You've got all these years to give to military service.

You have this youth that gives you this sense of immortality, so you're willing to take these incredible physical risks and put yourself on a battle line. Just very strategic. But yes, I do think the last step was not only seduction, but an attempted change of my team, which not to make queer bisexual jokes, but she is representing of a change of my team like we could use you you're smart you're

incisive you have something to say and if you were on our team we know you could do a lot of good so here's what we're offering you we're offering you this myth that'll make you feel cozy cozy and supreme for the rest of your life you'll get to feel superior to all these other people and we can use your skills and those things will just catapult you into the echelons of this intellectualist society and also be really cool if you could make Jewish babies. And for people who have no moral backbone or no ethical backbone, I'm sure that's a sexy offer. But I found it so, I found it and continue to find it so off-putting. Did they try to sell you on Tel Aviv's, you know, bisexual-friendly culture, send you to a

dyke bar, you know? Not even a little. Yeah. That's a missed opportunity. I mean, I think that makes it less likely that I'm going to have Jewish babies for them in their mind. I think it was still very heteronormative of like we've got to find you a guy who's going to win you permanently over to the man team and also like lock you in a kitchen. That's doing too much. They're trying to get to switch too many teams. That's too many team switching. Be like adopt Jewish babies.

Right. With your hot IDF Sabra wife. Yeah. Toppy mask energy wife. Yeah. I'm, I'm jealous. that they use the seduction tactic on you at the end because my tour guide literally after I said,

hey, you know, thanks for, thanks for a great trip. It was really, this is a really, you know, great time. And he was just said, go home, Matt. Which I was like, fuck. At that point I think I had made it clear that, you know, I was, I don't know, I was just taking the piss out of it the whole time. I hear they gather all people like the two of you

at the end of birthright. I didn't do birthright. I did a Habonim program called Workshop, which was 10 months long, which gave us a fuller, it is better. It's still highly limited. But anyway, but I hear they gather people these days. And if there's any dissidents, you know, if they sense that you're not quite on board, they gather you and they tell you, you have the birthright to remain silent. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Oh, what a long way to go, Daniel. While I was trying to give a conversation, I was trying to give a segue type pun, you know? It was beautiful.

Yeah, thank you. I thought you were just going to say they'd like hand you to people that are playing Palestinians and then have those people playing Palestinians throw you off a building to contribute to this mythology that that's indeed what will happen to you. Yes, yeah, they like to throw off the roof. It's a thing. Oh, my gosh. Speaking of having the birthright to remain silent, the Democratic nominee. for the president of the United States is a cop.

So we should talk a little bit about that. We'll get more into that specific store. It's worse than that, Matt. Is that? She's a cop with a goyasha running mate. I know. I know. Not a Jew as a running mate.

That's, I think we all know, anti-Semitic. It's humiliating. Very humiliating for us as a people. We didn't suffer for thousands of years in order to, not get Josh Shapiro to be the vice presidential pick in order to not occupy

the most useless position in the entire country. Yes. And we're going to get into that first, but I just want to show a little bit of, she had a rally recently in Wisconsin and Michigan, no? Michigan, yeah.

This is the one where she smack in Detroit. Yeah, no, you're right, but there was also very recently a Wisconsin rally that happened in which there was a very special guest. Bonnie Verre showed up. Oh, this one. Yeah, great. Yeah. And he played a song. And here's the thing. Bonnie Vair is truly one of my favorite artists and he sung an old patriotic classic that I just wanted to play on the pod because I just thought it was like so good. Like he's he's great. He's out here with a nice old patriotic song that's uh that's been rolling around my head these last

months. And I love this melody. I love y'all. Appreciate you. Oh, I'm so worried. We're here for the right reasons and we all know what we're here for. So we're going to do our thing. Make this music and make way for the people that we need to hear from. Oh yeah, there we go. Daniel's got the records. Classic. Yeah. Do you want Donald Trump to win?

just fell out of the coconut tree damn do you think you just fell out of a coconut tree just a beautiful man oh Matt oh Matt just uh you know he's just one of the great artists of our time. Listen, I have time on my hands, guys. And sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm going to make

Body Bear sing some Kamala quotes. That'll be fun. That's so funny. I'm a fucking idiot. But yes, there's a bunch of outrage that happens. And the name of that song would just be like Sheboygan or something.

Yeah. Oh, Shaboy. Because he wrote it in Chaboygan. Yeah. So we're going to get into all these stories about how people, at least Zionist Twitter and, you know, Zionist Twitter adjacent people. And not only that, but a lot of mainstream media sources, a lot of op-eds written recently about how disturbing it is that, what's his name, Tim Walls? Tim Walls was picked instead of Josh Shapiro And we're going to get into all of that But first we have to take a quick commercial break All right

Tim Sugar Walls On the window to the Tim Walls Yes, till the sweat Well anyways Runs through the halls There we go of Congress Classy, classy, yeah Thank you for keeping it classed up Daniel

So yeah so please stick around and we will be right back. And we're back. Wow. Great ads that we had. We had great ads. But yes. So this story has been a lot of fun to watch

because I feel like Ever since Josh Shapiro was mentioned as a possible vice presidential candidate, there's a certain segment of people who have just completely lost their minds online who just, they feel like this is an inroads into a critique of the Democratic Party as being openly anti-Semitic or having anti-Semitic somehow baked in because of the fact that they didn't choose him. and I want to start with a clip from Van Jones. Oh, friend of the Jews. Friend of the Jews, Van Jones.

He went on, like, CNN, and he talked about how troubling it is that Josh Shapiro wasn't chosen. I think it was a little risky, though, Van, that she didn't go with Shapiro to kind of lock down Pennsylvania. I mean, yes, David Chalding, we were saying earlier, just because you pick him as you're right. running mate doesn't mean you automatically win Pennsylvania, but I got to think it would have helped just a little bit. Hey, listen, that the conservatives, the right wing, the Republicans, they were chewing their fingernails down to the knuckle because they were afraid of a Josh Shapiro. They were afraid of a Mark Kelly. They're not as afraid of this new governor because they think they can define him. So here's the challenge you've got in this party. And people don't want to talk about it. We've got to talk about it. On the one hand, you have a lot of young people who are concerned about Gaza. You have a lot of people.

of Muslims and Arabs and others, they have not felt seen by the Biden administration. You start seeing. I love that. I love that the critique that they think they're hearing is, oh, is it that you guys don't feel seen? Yeah. Is that what it is? Is it, is it the lack of representation? And it's like, can we go, can we dig a little bit deeper or not even? Actually, can we can we stop with the use of this wishy-washy liberal language for a second? And it's like, those people are saying my relatives are dead those people are saying genocide bad i wonder as someone who's training to be a therapist and who's you know in both the activist and the psychology self-help therapy space have you noted like i have also sort of the way when you mix these two

things it it fucks both of them like politics is not therapy and therapy has political content but you know what I'm saying like what do you what do you do with that the way especially the democrats love to use therapy speak the way it's used in bad faith to uphold kind of these like arguments that invariably lead you to voting for whatever Democrats say is good we see you we hear you and your point of view about us funding the incineration of your entire bloodline is valid. Yeah. I mean, I really think the whole like lesser of two evils argument, a lot of it's like

cognitive manipulation. A lot of the use of language is cognitive manipulation of, you know, we have this set of values that we ascribe to a certain kind of language and that is prompted very falsely when we hear the way that people talk about this in the news. And I like to, like, even the human shields language that we hear all the time is like something that's humanizing followed by something. something that's immediately dehumanizing. And so the associations that we make are like, oh, human shields, then they're not a person

at all. They're just this steel that is put together to defend whatever. It's true. How far apart are human shields and human animals, really? Yeah. I'm like, I think you mean beings. I think the second word you're looking for is beings. But no, I think the lefts, or not even the left, Democrats attempt to sort of court the

left or court liberals by using soft, squishy language as if. we're just a totally irrational people totally ruled by our emotional states and our immediate responses and we don't have higher order thinking is so fucking backwards because I really think what is what is happening here is the people who are advocating for chazin for Palestinian liberation are accessing their higher order thinking and superseding sort of typical binarist bias and superseding socialization and propaganda and saying okay let's actually look at history and facts and wed our wise mind are like rational mind and our emotional mind to come to a conclusion that makes sense about the fact that genocide is inexcusable people are dying on mass it's being

justified in these fru-frew ways and we disagree with that and then the people who are failing to use their higher order cognitive thinking are those that are constantly fearmongering and just saying oh like it's either us or them it's killer be killed we have to wipe out all of them otherwise Jews won't exist anywhere and I'm like oh so so you can't sit in empathy for two minutes and construct a more nuanced understanding of this and thus you're going to assume that I can't construct a nuanced understanding of this either it's embarrassing it's embarrassing it is and it's also you know the way it's used in Van Jones's context here is he he is framing this as on the one hand you have people who don't want to be seen or who feel like they're not

not being seen. And on the other hand, you have this very real feeling that it is anti-Semitic to not go with the guy that we picked, you know, in the, not even, she didn't pick them. Just, you know, different media figures who are just like, it's got to be Josh Shapiro. Like, that framing in and of itself is like being between two people's distinct groups' feelings. I'm just like, you're, you're fucking, you're knowingly making this into something that it's not. Like you are, you're, you're obfuscating what the actual, you know, demand is from people. You're fucking lying is what you're doing. Van Jones, you know, have you seen the clip of him as a student activist, rabble rousing?

We don't have that, do we, Matt? Oh, of course we do. It's really something. Yes. It's really something. I mean, maybe, do you want to? If students could do that in 1960, the students could do that in 1970, if students could do that in 1985, 86, in 1993, when we have the United States government building a death camp, a concentration camp,

for black people who has done nothing wrong but get sick and want justice. That's all they've done wrong. If we can't close that death camp, if this generation cannot prevent another Japanese-American internment, in our lifetime, we should all get haircuts and go get regular jobs and give it up. He got a haircut, and then he got a regular job and gave it up. And he gave it up. Damn. I mean, he was, you know,

my mind goes to what George Galloway said about Christopher Hitchens in that famous debate they had where he says, Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to do it in Scottish. I will, yeah. You have just witnessed of a first in natural history. The first ever metamorphosis of a butterfly back into a slug.

Because he was praising how beautiful Hitchens was, you know. Best Shrek movie. Best Shrek movie. Shrek debates Hitchens. But, yeah, no, like, like, it's incredible what happens with a CNN contract. Well, first with a job in the Obama administration. Sure, yeah. But, I mean, like, to continue Van Jones, like,

this clip was a little risky let's let's just keep this going because uh i think it's great party uh and you know people don't want to talk about we got to talk about it who doesn't on the one hand you have a lot of young people are concerned about gaza you have a lot of muslims and arabs and others they had not felt seen by the biden administration yeah you start hearing that genocide joke that was building that was building and so those folks needed to have a candidate that they could feel comfortable with this helps them in that regard But you also have anti-Semitism that's gotten marbled into this party. You can be for the Palestinians without being an anti-Jewish big.

Best part of the pastrami is the marbled anti-Semitism. Yeah, delicious. I love it. Are some anti-Jewish spigots out there, and there's some disquiet now. Like a fine Wagyu, yeah. Oh, is it Wagyu? Wagyu. How much of what just happened?

is caving into some of these darker parts in the party. So that's going to have to get worked out. It's going to have to get talked through. I feel like this is the new liberal snowflake, right? The people who are advocating for Gaza and Palestine are just really sensitive and myopic, and it's all about their feelings, and they just want to be seen as opposed to, as you said before,

like, no, my family is dead. Right, yeah. And also as opposed to who are being the real snowflakes right now? Right. All the anti-identity politics warriors, all the anti-woke warriors. Yes. The Bungar Sargons, who I think we have some tweets from. Oh, yeah, I got Bataia.

You think I'm going to? We have a Bungar Banger. Yeah, we got a Bungar Banger here. This is something... Live from Bangor, Maine. We have a Bungar Banger in Bangor. It's me, Bata. You don't want to go down that rod.

Is that Stephen King or something? Yeah, that road. It's only for Jews. We're all anti-Semitic down here. Here, we're all anti-Semitic. All right. So, yeah, this was in response to, you know, just like talking about Josh Shapiro, not getting it.

This is something she wrote. Bata, I think she used to be the editor-in-chief of the foreword. I don't know if she still is. I don't know what's going on with the forward. She's with the backward now. Yes. my fellow American Jews, it's time to have a little self-respect and walk away from a party that's telling your children

they can't be vice president because the anti-Semites in the party must not be upset. Moishehah, come here, sit on daddy's knee. Yes, Papa. I have something very... You'll never be vice president. You know, your dream of being just like Selena Meyer? Yes.

It's not going to happen. America's not ready for that. but why papa why papa no you'll have to settle you'll have to settle for marrying a mixed race south-asian Indian black woman you mean being the first husband oh no but that's emasculating I don't know why this is my little Jewish point speaking of beta it's like let's lean all the way in Matt I've asked you before don't bring your bedroom voice into the podcast this is a voice that's for your wife okay that voice is for your wife yeah thank you thank you katie unbelievable how many times you get kink shamed on this podcast um well i get i get think i get think

shamed you do get think shamed um but yeah so you've got batya who you know is like one of a handful of these like berry wise adjacent anti uh identity politics warriors who like you know have They're the progressive until Palestine of the right. You know, like these are people who are. Free speech, free speech until Palestine speech. Yeah, exactly. And so it's like, it's just so funny watching them all bend over backwards to try to make this about anti-Semitism. When these are also all the same people who were like, when the left was canvassing for Bernie Sanders,

were just like, you know, basically doing anti-Semitic canards against him just being like, but he, look at how he talks with his hands. He justiculates too much. And he's yelling. We brought in this German body language expert. Yeah, exactly.

Besides, you know, but I think it's nice about you because basically what you're saying to people is, it's true. Walk away from this party and go vote. Yeah, sure. Go vote for the only Jew on the ticket. Jill's, on the thing, Jill Stein. Jill Stein, yeah, do it.

Yeah. It's just so funny because you just know that it's coming from a place of having a, like a world view that is not set because you are stuck. This is the thing about a lot of conservative Jews in America, at least the ones who have like a platform, is they are like Ben Shapiro. They're stuck in a world in which like the right wing does explicitly talk shit about Jews to them. But they have had to reframe anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism and not just as anti- but like as the only expression of anti-Semitism that can exist. Right. The thing that makes me so fucking furious about this too is like this plays directly into evangelical Christianity and Christian Zionism. Like how convenient for them, how great for them to have the only form of anti-Semitism that counts be the one that just happens to bring this.

their Messiah back so that we all go to hell and get tortured for eternity and they get sucked up into glittery heaven. I'm like, oh, great for y'all. And there are 30 times as many of you as there are of us. Yes. Well, I mean, that's just a coincidence, Katie. That just happens to be how it works out, all right? Yes. But I just want to read a little bit from an article that came out in the Hollywood reporter. Oh, reliable source. Let's go. This is so funny. I'm in. This is hilarious. I love when the, like, the Hollywood, like, you know, industry rags randomly decide to get into, you know, Israel politics. Because, like, first of all, it's, like, it's very embarrassing for, like, the rest of American Jewry when Hollywood is just like, I'm going to dip my toe into this conversation. And just because it's just, they're just feeding into everyone's anti-Semitism.

That's just like, oh, God. All right. So here's a little bit of this article. It's called Why Liberal Jews Feel Worried about Kamala Harris bypassing John Superior. You got to read the subheader. Yes. Subheading among some Jewish American producers, agents, and executives.

Great. Great. Expertise. Scene. Seen. Interior. Warner Brothers. There's a.

There's a. Mendelstein, a high-powered agent, picks up the phone, dial, says to the edge of com, Angie, get me, get me Shlomo Finkelberg. Yeah, I know. At W. A rich person called us to complain. At William Morris, you know. Have you heard this?

They're saying we control everything. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I love a text description of a Nazi cartoon. You know what I mean? Just like, come on. Jewish producers, Jewish American producers, agents, and executives,

there's a sense that even if the VP pick was the result of electoral calculations, those calculations come with baked-in anti-Semitic assumptions about the electorate. Once again, we're back to this term baked in. We talked about the marbled-in

anti-Semitism of the Pichroni of Democratic politics. In this case, in this case, the anti-Semitism is the poppy or prune filling of the homintoshin of electrow calculation. Perfect, perfect. I was going to go with Babka, but precious.

Yeah, either way. I was going to do Ruggler. Well, look at ice. Look at us. We're all hungry. Okay, so scrolling through the coverage of the Tim Walls VP announcement Tuesday morning, I received a message from a friend, a prominent Jewish-American doctor who identifies as a moderate. This makes me very sad, she wrote. The friend had already been teetering off, teetering on the cliff's edge about Trump, believing him a better choice on anti-Semitism for her family, which includes a daughter studying on a hotbed college campus.

What a strange phrase, believing him a better choice on anti-Semitism for her family. What's of, okay, also, can we talk about the fact-that? When it comes to anti-Semitism for your family, who do you trust? The headline, liberal Jews, the very first example, Jew who identifies as a moderate. Yeah. Prominent Jewish doctor. Some inconsistency.

Yes. And then, yeah, the prominent moderate Jewish doctor who is thinking about Trump as being better on anti-Semitism. Like, once again, we're back to this like, unless your definition of anti-Semitism is only anti-Zionism, what the fuck are you talking about? What the fuck? You got to keep your friends close and your Nick Fuentes is even closer. Exactly.

And I love the daughter. are studying on a hotbed college campus, you know, so obviously, yeah, that is a hotbed. Sounds like an 80s sex comedy. Yeah, a hotbed. All right, uh, let's see. Kamala Harris, the Democratic presidential nominee opting against Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro pushed her over the edge. To this friend, it was evidence that the candidate had caved in to anti-Jewish forces. And who's to say that she wouldn't do that in office too. I didn't say it was anti-Semitic. She clarified,

I said that she could not stand up to those who are. I'm not saying she's a real Nazi, but she ain't messing with no Jewish Yotsie. Hey, there we go. It rhymed. Yeah, it didn't mean anything, though. Didn't mean anything. It doesn't need to.

I'm not saying she's a real Nazi, but a Jew on her ticket is something you will not see. Okay. I'm glad you got another shot at it. You feel good about that? The meta thing is that it's by an anti-Semite. That's right. I fought back vigorously.

Like Shapiro, Walz has been outspoken on anti-Semitism in the horrors of October 7th, I said. A folksie Midwesterner, the Minnesota governor brings electoral advantages that Shapiro and his coastal polish didn't. I think it's pronounced Polish. Yeah, his coastal Polish didn't. Not choosing a Jewish running mate is hardly disqualifying for office, I argued. And, you know, he keeps doing this thing where he's just like, and I pointed out all these different reasons why that was totally ridiculous. But then I stopped.

There was never going to be a way to definitively know why Harris chose Walls over Shapiro. And therefore, I'm going to write an entire article with the assumption that it was anti-Semitism. Like, literally, it just goes on and on. about like if it was anti-Semitism, and here's a million different reasons why it could be. Look, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but when you really think about it. I love, like, there's a part here,

he goes, to some non-Jews I talked to, today's news was just a case of a tribal rooting interest, not going our way. Quote, oh, well, you'll get the next one, went their vibe. Why is it in quotes? Why is it in quotes if it's a vibe? Their vibe said

They're vaguely anti-Semitic Vib Bad writing I know it's just awful But when a Jewish leader This popular He's not What do you talk

He's got like a 46% approval rating In his state that he governs From a state So necessary He gets passed over It becomes more than just a matter Of losing a round of identity politics poker It touches an existential nerve

Josh Shapiro wasn't picked and so that means we're going to die. Did you all know that? We're actually going to die. I love this so much. This is like Hollywood Reporter and Variety and like a few other of these like industry rags have occasionally done this thing where they have, they have to project like it's Zionist, like Zionist trying to project any kind of like power within Hollywood. Because as someone who is in Hollywood, like the, I know far more Jewish. If they're not anti-Zionists, they are like, you know, non-Zionists or people who are pro-Palestine.

And this reminds me of like after the speech that the Zone of Interest Director gave at the Oscars, it was followed up by like three weeks of all of these industry fucking, you know, rags like the reporter and variety just being like oh everybody's real mad about that and it's like literally nobody's really mad about that it's just like this attempt to paint Jewish people as being you know

a monolith of people who are mad anytime someone speaks out against Israel is just it fucking it makes me so mad dude I hate it. You're mad about that I'm mad about that um let's see uh anti-semitism well uh where will i where will i end with it because i'm not going to read this fucking yaire fucking rosenberg quote um waltz pro jewina but waltz pro jewish bona fides don't mean the decision to put him on the ticket or their reaction to his appointment can't also be

shadowed with anti-semitism both can be true because you're paranoid Don't mean they're not after you. Boom. Gotta pick a Jew, a better Jew, better Jew. Gotta pick a Jew, a better. Oh, shit, where were you when I was doing the fucking Bonnie Verre thing? I should have done that instead. Oh, well, whatever, never mind.

Wow. I just, it is, you know, I can't help but like read the. things and get incredibly mad at the just constant concerted effort by people to write on behalf of Jews, what they're considering the silent majority of Jews. You know what I mean? Like they consider anyone who speaks out for Palestine to be either, you know, you're not a real Jew or you're a capo or your whatever kind of slur they want to call you self-hating self-hating sure um but if you uh i mean talk about don't kink shame jesus christ yeah i know self-hatred alone i have a question about this i mean some the some of the some of the most frequent stuff i get online perhaps because i'm a little

disney-looking femme is the oh you're not a real jew and you should go sleep with a muslin person date a Muslim person like i get a lot of very targeted stuff about my sexuality of like you're gonna go fuck so and so do you guys get that i don't i mostly get threats on my child great uh yeah it's so funny the way that it's like i don't think other than like calling me like self-hating or uh you know fake jew or like a um capo um or like you know catari stooge or whatever um they can't do the sexual violence fanfic that they like to do with women it's such a projection though it's like oh i i have internalized all of this islamophobia and like anti-muslims sentiment i'm going to assume that you have as well and so i'm going to threaten you

with the sexuality of muslim men in particular and i'm like don't threaten me with a good time like great it's it's so funny because it is like it is so their their thoughts process is so transparent. You're just like, you know what you're saying is just, this is just more evidence for the ICC. This is on you actually. Like this is you inside your own mind. Yeah, like your brain here is very much on display where your, your, your natural assumption is that everybody knows that, you know, a Muslim man or an Arab man can't help but be a rapist or will sexually assault you. It's just like people say this all the time.

A defiler, yes. Of those poor innocent white women, particularly the white dress girls. Yes, exactly, exactly. And it just, I like it. I mean, I don't like it, but it's interesting when it comes from Israelis. It's always the funniest when it comes from Israelis because they are really like they're not quite in touch with, I guess our own education on like the way in which uh white women were used uh during like

Jim Crow and whatnot in order to like the myth of the black and brown rapist was like justification for lynch mobs yes it's like oh all you have to do is pretend that a white woman's virginity or purity is at risk and it justifies mass violence toward men of a certain type like we're so familiar with this and it's so transparent yes yes And they, I, you know, for whatever reason, they don't seem to know that that's what those tropes bring up for like Americans. And so, so when they do it, I'm just like, you, you just sound like a southerner from the fucking 30s, dude. Like, you sound like. Dear Katie, I am writing to you from state, Taman, military base.

Yeah. I want you to know everything I do, I do it for you. It is. It is like, damn. Because they need to imagine Arabs raping their women. They just need some pretext to do what they need to do. And there is something so deeply violative. You want to talk to baked in.

You know, you watch the Tantura documentary or you read the actual history. Ever since the beginning. And it must have something to do psychologically with if you're going to despoil a land, if you're going to cut a people off from its earthly connection to a place to the to the what can I say the the birthplace of a culture yeah well that that's a that's a pretty rapy yeah they're having a simultaneous fantasy about someone else's violation like projecting a fantasy of someone else's violation and a fantasy of their own saviorism like anytime someone says oh you're a queer woman and so Palestinians would throw you off a building or, oh, you're a self-hating Jew, and so you're going to

be raped by an Arab man. I'm like, you just imagined a certain kind of violence by someone else that all happened in your own brain. You constructed a fantasy for yourself of that happening to me. You enjoyed that fantasy so much that you wanted to communicate it to me to cause me some sort of psychological pain or fear so that then I would seek, or whatever, so that then I would seek you as my protector and you would be the one in control of whether or not I'm off a building and you would be the one in control of whether or not I'm raped like it's such a fantastical kind of erotic story they're telling themselves about who gets to be in charge of bodies it's really alarming yeah and that's and some of your some of my favorite content of yours has been you just

have taking the absolute piss with these you know just having a lot of fun and in responding and playing with your cute persona, you know? Yes. Yes. And turning the tables on them. Yeah. I'm like, I'm an adorable Disney femme. And I know that you're all furious that you'll never access me because I don't sleep with Zionists.

Like, it's just never going to happen. And so, oh, so sad for you. But this guy over here who's like all for the resistance, like, we're going to have a good time. Grieve about it. They're so mad about it. They're so mad about it. It's anti-semitism for you not to flirt back with them. They feel so sad and rejected.

And I'm like, I could call them a beta. And I have so many men, specifically on my TikTok, who will reach out to me via DMs and be like, I'm an Israeli and I'm a Zionist, and I would really love you to find on me or humiliate me. Can I send you money to tell me that I'm like a useless genocider? And I'm like, uh, like, first of all, what a cool way for me to be able to make money,

but no, like, I'm not interfacing with that at all. not interfacing with that at all. But they're so, they so fetishize my rejection of them. I'm like, this is bizarre. Like, please get, get thyself to a therapist. To therapy. That's a, that's a bet mail. Nice. But like, the amount of projection is so crazy, you know, because of the, you know, recent allegations that have come to light in Israel of the, you know, how much sexual violence there is among these, like, prisons filled with Palestinian prisoners. Allegations, fucking memoir.

Yeah, fucking memoirs, yeah, fucking video evidence, yes. Yeah, and it's like, it's just... Nationally broadcast video evidence. Yes, and the craziest thing, you know, about it, or one of the craziest things about it is you still see people, people when faced with actual evidence of their own peoples, Israelis, you know, Israelis faced with their own people doing sexual violence, that they end up justifying it with just all the same Hasbara talking points from the seventh, things that have been completely debunked, you know, and it's just, it's wild. So we have a story about a man, uh, name. Maire Ben Shitrit.

I'm not going to pronounce this correctly. I'm sure it's Sheetreate, but his name is spelled shit writ. And he was... Matt, Matt, let's be charitable. Shit reet. Shit, reach.

Okay. Or shit eat. Yeah. So, Maire Ben shit eater is a Israeli soldier who's one of several who were arrested as being a part

of the, you know, the raping of a Palestinian prisoner in state, Tehran. Did I do it right? You said it right this time. Yeah. Sorry, I'm just very excited when I get one right. Wai-gu. All right. So I'm gonna-

And I'm like Wagyu. I want to play a little bit from my ear because, He's someone who, when I saw the story kind of unfolding over the past week of like literally thousands of people showing up and bum rushing the detention center in order to keep the soldiers who were being trying to get arrested for who there was an attempt to arrest them for these rapes. They were trying to keep the soldiers from getting arrested, which is you got to fight for your right to. do that um and so yeah i want to play a little bit of she treat do we have the clip of him from july yeah here he is yes yeah yeah okay so i'm going to uh from 2023 yeah uh is it i i don't yeah this is i think this is from before october 7th i believe okay i believe i might be wrong so this is uh i'm gonna read the subtitles uh for for people um who are

are just listening. Hello, friends. My name is Mayer Ben Shitrit. I am currently a reserve fighter in the Ben Yamin sector. I want to say a few words from the bottom of my heart. I have been through a lot. I have been through Lebanon, Hebron, I've been through battles, I've been through killings. I've buried friends. Friends were killed next to me. And I asked myself, what happened to us? What happened to the IDF? How did the great IDF of the 1960s, 1997, 1973, the IDF that gives us, that gives a blow to the enemy with the Argoon, Stern Gang, establish the IDF reprisals. Shout out to the early terrorist organization.

I know, shout out. Exactly. Ergoon shout out. Every shot needs to be approved by the higher-ups. Everything can be used only gradually. First of all tear gas, then sun grenades and rubber bullets, then, you know, all that other stuff. In case you get hit in the face, but something happened to the spirit of our. our command, the wonderful command that works day and night. Really, the best people, people who give

their soul to the country sharp as knives. Only we have a virus inside. We have a virus inside a lack of bustle, of moving forward, of charging forward, of closing the story, of dealing with the problem. Oh, that cursed empathy. Yeah. Why can't we go into the Negev with machine guns? Why can't we go with mag machine guns? Why can't we go in with a hold the building force of a grenade launcher. Words of Gen Z, say less, literally shut the fuck up. I do want to give a shout out though to Jeremy Strong. This is his best works in success.

Oh, he is fantastic in this. Just doing a great job. I love Darth Kendall Roy here. Yeah. But yeah, so he's going on to just, you know, talk about what are we doing to ourselves? this virus of self-restraint that the Israelis famously have. And while he's talking about the bureaucracy, the pencil necks, the pen or the, the pencil

pushers, but it's kind of a Sweeney Todd moment for all the musical theater fans out there where he's like, because he's about to say in the next subtitle was like, we had them, 150 to 200 terrorists, we had them right there. And it's like that moment where Sweeney Todd is like, I had him. His throat was there beneath my hand and now he'll never come again. And that's when he decides we all deserve to die. and he goes off on a murderous rampage and that leads to the whole meat pie's thing.

Anyway, that's your song. It is like that. Thank you so much. It's just like it. No, but it's a black pill moment where he's like, 100%. Fuck this. I can't, you know,

fuck being a soldier. Fuck the code. It's Jimmy McNulty, season five. Yes, yes, 100%. Except for instead of faking murders, he just does more. Exactly. And yeah, so, you know, this guy,

there's a bunch of videos of him out there, one in which he is harassing people who are leftists who are doing a tour of for some reason Baruch Goldstein's grave. I suppose it's like a history tour of right-wing psychopaths in Israel. And so he's just there yelling at people about the truth about Arabs and that. And then he was one of the people who was right. other people up to try to get them to not have him arrested. You know, like, come on, everyone, come down. Come down and make sure that they don't arrest me.

They did end up arresting him. And, you know, I have a clip of after his detention that I think is reminiscent of the way our police treat white supremacist terrorists in this country. I want to mention that the police, the military police, treated us really nice, truly, everyone. You see the support, and they do their job because he has to tell you, come in. But you felt, you felt the girl's souls there. The officers, the soldiers, all of them, with a hand on their heart, like telling you thank you.

can't tell it to you you feel it there was a day when they clapped from the sidelines i mean what can i tell you he's like secretly they love us they have to slap us on the wrist yeah and and just like this guy is not well this guy is not well yeah and uh him being not well really uh he took not well to the next level um with an interview i mean i guess the next level was doing prisoner rape. But the other level that he did was he went on a recent news program in Israel, but he wore a disguise. So we wouldn't recognize him. So we wouldn't recognize him. And this is a clip from that. An Israeli soldier was invited to defend the IDF.

What is your feeling in front of the army, in front of the prosecutors our office? I think our army is the healthiest army. For those listening, he's wearing a full-on ski mask, like, a what is it called, Balaclava? He's wearing a baklava. So only his eyes are showing, and he's talking about how healthy the IDF is. It's so funny because he could be dressed up. in an IDF propaganda video impersonating their idea of a Hamas fighter. Yes, 100%.

Like he's dressed up as the stereotype of a terrorist. Ready to rob Kevin McAllister and get hit in the head with a paint can. Is that a Home Alone reference? Yes, it is. I never saw that movie, but I... Oh, you gotta see Home Alone, dude. It's like Ghostbusters without the ghosts. The commanders, the fighters, the fieldmen. If there's anyone in the system above who wants to spoil us, I'm here to protect our good name. I'm very happy that the right knew how to wake up in the land of Israel.

I don't want to make it a left-wing thing or right-wing thing. I know it won't help because the right-wing... The people of Israel are finally awake. They talk so fast, damn it. Yeah. So essentially, you know, what he's saying is a lot of kind of what he was repeating in that other... the first clip that we played of like this awakening of the right wing uh in israel in which like they woke up uh to you know it's it's you know the position that they've been holding since the seventh

is like now do you see you know uh now do you see that we need to go into the negev with machine guns and just you know kill them all i mean we're talking about like people defending this complete psychopath here and it just it blows my mind the amount of like projection that is done by these you know Zionists um you know mouthpieces who cannot stop you know DMing Katie to give you all of their weird rapy fanfic and defend you Katie yeah let's just say one of these guys years from now sees the light yeah and comes to you for PTSD therapy do you do you treat a former would you take on a client who would who would participate in this um with a caveat yes I think I take on clients absolutely who hold totally opposite positions to me really

if we have misaligned values. But I tell them up front, I am a feminist-oriented therapist. And this will be, you know, I'm assuming in the future I'm functioning under my own license, I have no supervisors, I've completed my PhD program, and let's say I have a private practice.

I would have the freedom to tell these people up front. Like, these are my values. I hold this political position. It is informed by my values orientation and my research is not going to change. if you come to therapy with me, if you come to sessions with me, I will be holding you accountable for these things, and this is not going to be an easy process. I think there has to be a willingness to bring folks back to their humanity who have abandoned

it for whatever reason, whether it's socialization into propaganda, being told their entire lives that everybody hates them, being told their entire lives they're at risk. There's a very intentional process that the Israeli sort of culture and propaganda machine does two children growing up in Israel to tell them everyone hates you. You're fully isolated. You have to be willing to die to defend the rest of your people. You're at risk of rape and murder all the time. And it breaks their brains. Like it really does psychological harm. And I think there's this cultural abandonment that's happening now. Like, well, all Israelis are sort of beyond, beyond help, beyond enlightenment, beyond sort of a return to this humanity that they have very intentionally

amputated in order to exist within this system that breaks them. right I don't want to be part of a system that that breaks people and so I think if someone were were to say okay I need to grapple with these atrocities and these human rights abuses that I committed and I don't want to make for example an Arab or Muslim therapist do that emotional labor to help an Israeli veteran revisit sort of light and having a soul that's not on anybody else and in fact I think some of my identity could potentially provide them some solace of being held accountable by another Jewish person, knowing that this accountability is not because of my own anti-Semitism, whatever. Yeah, I think I would. I don't think I would enjoy it.

I think this is an imaginary client I would have a very difficult time with, but I think that's when you get a PhD in psychology, you take on the responsibility of caring for anyone who walks into your door. it would make a damn good book though yeah it would that would be one of those single case study things you got to get consent for right at the start Tuesdays with with Ori

yeah there you go instead of Maury that's great but yeah I mean the amount of hatred that you get from people for the types of videos that you make do you ever find yourself just kind of like getting to the point where you don't know if this is

healthy for you like is there a point where you just go like I need to center maybe my own mental health a little bit and just take a step back or are you like me in which you go like no that means they win and you run purely on spite? Great. Something of a combination of both. So I do think one of the things that that people did not like about me at the beginning of this was I would make the bulk of my content about Palestine and anti-Zionism and unlearning Zionism, like really deconstructing it as a Jewish person. And then every once in a while, I'd also have my little thirst traps from sort of before all this started and conversations about my dating life and I'd, you know, show pictures

of my family or I'd be on vacation or I'd be at pride. Pride really made people upset. And I've tried very intentionally to say, like, I'm not going to bifurcate myself. I am a whole person, and I need to function on goodness, and I need to function on the things that bring me joy, pleasure, and fulfillment, as much as I need to function on rage and spite in this sense of fury toward injustice, whatever it is, those things are all a part of, like, holistically who I am. And so, yes, you'll see content about Palestine and unlearning Zionism on this page. and also sometimes you're going to see me dressed up in foxy little pride outfits. And if you find that disgusting, I'm probably not the influencer for you. And I do think that has allowed me to maintain a sense of authenticity through this. Like I don't feel like I hop onto social media and I'm immediately putting on like performative Katie mask.

It did feel like that at the start prior to October 7th. Like when I had my sort of sex therapy, sex research stuff online maybe two years ago, it did feel very performative. and it was not sustainable for me. So I think some of both, and I don't think anyone will bully me out of talking about Palestine. And I carve, I'd say 40% of my cognitive space and energy is dedicated to Palestine all the time.

But I do maintain the other 60% because otherwise I won't stay in this. Like I've seen what it is for me to try to operate on spite. Not sustainable. I become a very unpleasant person to be around. and I prefer to be quirky little Disney femme. Yeah, well, that's good. You know, I feel like my spite is my strength.

Love that for you. Yeah. Hey. Nom, numb, numb, numb, num, num. It works for me. I haven't seen Frozen in a long time, but kind of didn't Elsa try to run on spite for a while and kind of didn't go so well?

She froze the whole kingdom. Oh, damn. Yeah, I'm keeping myself from watching Frozen because I have a child who, I know, we'll watch it and I'm trying to wait until the day in which it is absolutely forced upon me to watch Frozen. Well I definitely I totally support you continuing to post thirst traps. Let me say why.

That's not a weird thing in terms of being able to make sure that your audience knows the entire spectrum of who you are. I feel like I try to do that on this podcast. For example, on last week's episode with Tyke Hickey, I told a story about the time I put a turkey baster in my butt to do drugs. And I felt like it was important for people to know that. That I... And I thought it was important to make as many turkey baster jokes for the rest of the episode as I could. Yes. And did I regret it? Sure. Do I regret it now? Yes. Do I like that people know that? Absolutely I do. Your vulnerable shares are safe with me. Exactly.

And yeah. Like if I do feel like one of the issues, it's not, it's a kind of a non-issue, but it is, you know, something that I think we, all three of us deal with is because of the fact that we speak out about this particular thing, you do end up kind of like gaining an audience that doesn't necessarily know you from anything else. And so I try to continually remind people that mostly my brand. And before the seventh was me doing parody songs of Sopranos episodes and jokes about eating butt.

And I feel like if you know that, then everything else kind of fits into a larger context about who I am. I contain multitudes is what I'm saying, Katie. Yes. But did you know, Matt, that really you're only allowed to advocate for one single cause? Absolutely. And if you divert from that cause, any of your energy, even a little bit, it means that you were fully a traitor to that cause and in fact you're a grifter and you shouldn't ever speak about

it again. I just wanted to make sure somebody had said that to you already. Yes. I posted a video of me playing the Moonlight Sonata First Movement this morning on Instagram and like literally two minutes after it uploaded there was a knock on my door and there was like three Palestinian children crying and asking me why? Why? Yeah. Why did you abandon us? Yeah, exactly. Personally betrayed them yeah yeah and you're playing beethoven you know fucking that's that's anti yeah and then and then my holocaust surviving or not surviving holocaust not surviving that's what they that's what they're most famous for they didn't survive it that is great grandparents showed up and they said why are you playing a german that's right that's right you might as well be playing Wagner I think I commented under that uh humming rock

and roll McDonald's to you playing this I think it would have worked you know um but But Katie, thank you so much for talking to us about all of this stuff. You know, I really appreciate the work that you've been doing and I feel like you have been instrumental for a lot of people in terms of kind of unlearning Zionism. And I just keep doing what you're doing. You're great. Yeah, your work is really meticulous. That's what I admire about it the most. It's not just well packaged and delivered in a digestible way, but it's also very detailed, very well thought through, pedagogically very sound, I think.

Oh, my God. I'm turning red now. This is too much praise, actually. Thank you so much. It's a trap for my thirst for lessons well taught. Yeah, yes. Well, Google Scholar helps. I really feel like having a background as an academic has been so instrumental.

for me in this conversation and I'm a theater kid and I'm a psychologist and I'm a researcher and I'm a writer and the storytelling piece has been really interesting to play with so thanks all so much one of the things I always try to say

every time I have some platform to talk about this I talk about this idea of sliders and Daniel you've heard this before Matt I don't know if you have and I know I've made videos about it before but this I think refers back to the conversation we were just happy having about only one version of yourself being able to exist.

And so as a, I'm putting my like therapist hat on right now, people experience dialectics. We are able to hold multiple contradicting things at the same time. And so this idea that happiness and sadness or enjoyment and pain just exist on these binary sliders and you move between, you know, being happy or being sad or experiencing joy or experiencing pain is ridiculous. Happiness has its own slider. So does sadness. So does joy.

So does pain. shame so just excitement etc and you can be suffering 70% and feel grief for Palestine 80% and your joy can still be at 40 and your pleasure at being around family can still be at 50 and all these other like we do indeed contain multitudes not only in our ideas but in our emotional experience and so I want to invite not only the two of you because I know you do this already that's part of the reason you run this pod but the folks who are listening to you who are feeling shame or guilt or whatever for also being human beings while people suffer.

Folks have suffered throughout time. Folks will continue to suffer. If you yourself take on all of their suffering and allow yourself no reprieve, you will not actually be able to be effective in helping. So move those sliders as is needed. Literally every day of your life that you've been alive, no matter how long you've been alive,

people have been suffering in unimaginable ways, not so far from you. So thank you for that. I must be hungry because when you said, Daniel, I told you about the sliders. I was like, oh, yeah, she did tell me about the little burgers. Sometimes you need little bite-sized content. Yeah, tiny burgers are good.

Oh, my God, Katie, you're right. That's all I took from what you said, too. How good sliders are. There's a thirsty joke in here somewhere, too. I'm just not going to look for it. Yeah, don't look for it, but I'm thirsty for some lemonade and hungry for the sliders of joy. Actually, Burger content is in our last episode, which is Patreon only.

Jacob Burger, folks, go to patreon.com slash Bat Hasbara, sign up. Get yourself two episodes today. That's right. This episode has been fantastic, but don't you want more? Yeah, aren't you hungry for more sliders? More Wagyu. Waygoo. Oh, it's callback time.

It's called. That's everything. We're doing it all. But no, Katie, I really do appreciate you coming on this podcast. and, you know, dealing with us fucking morons here. But, you know, morons with a heart of gold is what we do. Absolutely. I will say you mentioned the man guests, girl guests, women guests earlier on.

You do have such sweet boy energy, but while the boy energy on this spot is really present. Yeah, there's a lot of boy energy. There's some dude guy stuff, like a bro-man stuff happening here. And I just, it's cute. It's charming. It's pressing. Just, yeah, so there are people who are into that, Katie, in your research? Yes, dude bro energy.

Yeah, I think there's a subsection of the population that might find that charming. Not me. I'm bromophobic. Kinkshame, not kink same on this one. Well, thank you so much. Where can people find you in your work? So I am on Instagram at k.w.bogan. I'm on TikTok at Sexuality Scholar.

If you want to check out my actual scholarship, look up Catherine Bogan on Google Scholar. I've now been cited over a thousand times. Yes, she is a legitimate scholar. Wow. So if you want to read any of my papers on sexual functioning, that's where to go. All right. Check that out. There will be links to your socials in the bio of the show. What can I say? Thank everyone for being out there and for allowing us to give you a little bit of joy in these dark, dark times. move those sliders over you know whether they be beef or pork no pork no pork not kosher another non-coacher thing that's right uh patreon.com slash bad hasbara badhasbara at gmail.com all right everyone thank you thanks to you so much for listening

killing it killing it matt you're doing great bring home baby and I'm not I'm not slide I'm fading, I'm sliding, I'm thinking of slider shit is crazy. And until next time, from the river to the sea of... Orgasms may not free Gaza, but hey, at least they're free. Hey, I like it. Jumping Jacks was us, push-ups was us, Godmaga us, all karate us, taking Molly us, Michael Jackson, us, Yamaha keyboards, us, Sharjavings not us, Andor was us, Keith led your Joker us, endless bread success. Happy meals was us, McDonald's was us, being happy us, be quorum yoga us, eating food, us, breathing air, us, drinking water us.

We invented all that shit. Do you want Donald Trump to win? Do you think you just fell out of the coconut tree? Do you think you just fell out of a coconut tree? You exist in the context of all in which you live And what came before you You exist in the context of all in which you live And what came before you

You exist in the context you're close to the contest Thank you.