Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - Bad Hasbara 8: Uber Allies, with Dan Arrows

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

Dan Arrows (Iron Dice podcast and Three Arrows YT channel) is live from Germany talking to Matt Lieb about Germany and Israel's special relationship and the state of German liberalism and the German left with regards to zionism.Support the podcast https://www.patreon.com/frotcastSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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All of garden us White foster us Zabra Hamas Hasbaras us Hello, and welcome to Bad Hasbara, the world's most moral podcast. This is a show where I take a look at the magical world of political propaganda from all over the world or the Middle East, specifically Israel. That's what this podcast is. Once again, my name is Matt Lieb.

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patreon because if you go to the patreon.com slash fracist then you can get this show as well as other shows uh you know that like we i do you know i do a lot of show here i'm going to put a ticker on donate now patreon dot com slash fracast look at this see i'm figuring out the technology as we go okay so you can go there I do other shows with my podcast partner, Vince Mancini, where we talk about the Sopranos and talk about The Wire and talk about media and movies and shit in general. Lots of fun. Surprisingly, those are also very political podcasts because both the Sopranos and The Wire are very political shows. So, join the Patreon. Help me out if you want. I don't care. I do care, but I want to pretend like I don't care. Okay, today, our guest, really fantastic guest today. I'm very excited because this was someone who I've actually known for a while through his work on YouTube and also his awesome podcast, the Iron Dice podcast.

Ladies and gentlemen, everyone else, our guest today is Dan Arrows. Oh, let me add him to the, yeah, there. There we go. And then we're going to flip. There we are. How you doing? Nice. Hey, Matt. Hey, piggies. So glad to be here. What's up? Ready to represent the second worst country in international media here and now. Hey, listen, I, first of all, much love to, you know, Germany. Not for their past or their present. the um germans that i have met individually who i am going to assume um based on just meeting them uh that they are that most of the country is filled with like really cool good smart goodhearted people and and it's not all you know insane people who forgive genocide right yeah i guess so i mean

I haven't talked to every single one individually, but it sure tends to feel like the opposite these days. Yeah. I mean, listen, I would never paint any country with a broad brush, no matter what they did to a portion of my family. Really comfortable on this podcast so far. I'm here to confront you. as an avatar for all germans yeah you should yeah yeah i have it i had a comment but uh no i'm very

excited to uh to talk to you uh today because uh what i want to talk to uh you and our audience uh today is about um germany um which has a very interesting role i think in um the last few months uh you know since the uh retaliation for the attacks on october 7th um i think a lot of people are coming to this whole, you know, Israel-Palestine conflict, to use that reductive term. They're coming to it, I think, new. Like, a lot of people don't know anything about it. So I think people are looking at Germany and going, like, what the fuck is going on there? What?

And I think, you know, as someone who's followed this for a while, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You didn't know, Germany, like, huge, huge supporters of Israel in a way that I think is, on the one hand, understandable. And on the other hand, totally baffling to anyone who's just like, but isn't genocide bad? Right. Yeah. I think, I feel like it's shifted into like a whole different mode on October 7th. because prior to that, Germany was always kind of like juggling these two aims of really caring about international law and international institutions and what the UN says and ascribing meaning to that and having it as the sort of moral guideline for their actions. But on the other side, like being as loyal to Israel as possible. So they would always just try to find like this middle road where they wouldn't like recognize the Golan Heights. as Israeli territory, but they also wouldn't make a fuss about it or ever mention it unless

directly asked, or they would, you know, the last time around when the conflict flared up was when the Israeli government evicted people from Sheikh Jara in Jerusalem. Right. And, you know, of course, like Hamas retaliated with rockets or whatever. And then, like, Israel retaliated and there was a large civilian death toll. And the answer to whenever that happens for a German population. politicians basically just saying Israel has a right to defend itself. We urge all parties to remain calm and then they hope it just goes away quickly. Right. And for this time around it seems

like they're just like pedal to the medal, like finish the job, Israel. We don't want to deal with this anymore. Yeah, it is it is interesting because I think like it sounds incredibly similar to the way that you know the united states has kind of dealt with israel uh at least in the past which is like um the official government line for years and years uh despite what many of you are new to this you know whole thing might think it was uh hey israel um the settlements in the west bank are bad and like you shouldn't do that like this is not you know something that like um only Democratic president said, like George W. Bush said the same thing. And they all said something along the lines of there should be a two-state solution. But it is in this recent conflict

that it seems that is all out the window with both the United States, you know, foreign policy people and in Germany as well. Like now it's just like Israel has a right to defend itself. so let them do what they got to do dog just let them fucking you know and everyone seems to uh like they're allowing it to happen they don't look stoked about it but uh i will say that um i have seen some more full-throated uh like pro-israel uh support coming from germany than i think i had maybe seen or even noticed in the past um yeah yeah i mean i feel like now that like roughly 25,000 people have died they're kind of like toning it down a little bit but like the card has gone gone out from under them like Biden and our foreign

minister Annalina Baerbach both said like today or last week like yeah we're committed to like a two-state solution this is like the only way right out and just being like immediately shut down by like the Israeli government that that is not something they're considering at all Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting too because there was there was no talk of that coming from either Israel or coming, sorry, from either Germany or the United States. I think for the last few months, it's been like very much just like eyes down. It seems like they just like they're okay with the status quo and for like the Palestinian question to just like dither away to know like for the Palestinians to just end up like the Kurds way where they have like illegitial. legitimate claim to statehood, but they have no path of ever getting there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, it's been interesting watching Germany. And I think just for some background. So let's talk about Germany and its relationship to Israel. And it's kind of like

on a societal level, German people's relationship to Israel. The one thing that I have at least been told by people and have read about in, you know, limited capacity, is that the German left is also Zionist. Is that right? Is that basically correct or no? I guess it depends on where you draw the line. If like you're the, like, if you mean like the liberal left, then yes, for sure. Right. If you mean like further left than that, like not even represent by any major party on a national level, then it's kind of, it's like splintered, where you have like German leftists who are like fully Zionist and you have like weird little like splinter groups in there.

And you also, but you also have a lot of young people and people with a migration background who are firmly on the side of the Palestinians. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that is one thing that I think we've definitely seen in the past few months is seeing that kind of pro-Palestinian representation on the ground in Israel. or sorry, in Germany. And I've been, you know, heartened by it because I'm like, oh, I had, you know, I had always heard that basically the German left was, you know, in every other sense, at least, you know, for Americans' ears, very left wing, very, you know, openly socialist and whatnot. But then, you know, when it came to Israel for reasons that I think are fairly obvious, at least on the face of it, they were always like, no, of course, and we fully support Israel and it's right to exist.

And it seems like, you know, I don't want to paint the pro-Palestinian protesters in Germany. They're not out in the street screaming against Israel's quote right to exist. they're screaming for a ceasefire from from what I can see yeah I mean there's this this has been this really weird back and forth after October 7th because um there were like instances where at right on october 7th or like right after like people took to the street waving like Palestinian flags kind of like celebrating sure the attack or whatever and um it has led to this like maybe this would have happened anyway, but you could also see it as like a tiny kind of overreaction where in the aftermath and the weeks after and even in parts like to you today, like any sign of showing Palestinian

solidarity is completely banned. It doesn't really matter how you even phrase it. Like in the city of Munich, you couldn't do a protest for like the Palestinian people, even if it's just about like human rights or whatever. It was like banned like throughout the entire city and in other cities as well. It's nuts because, you know, this is stuff that, you know, in the United States, I see, you know, inklings of it where you see like, you know, your so-called right-wing free speech warriors who are, you know, they're also, they're also pushing to ban the Palestinian flag, like in Florida, or ban, you know,

phrases like from the river to the sea or you know ban any kind of support of BDS making people take BDS pledges and it seemed like Germany did kind of a turbocharged version of that after October 7th where it seemed that they were I mean this is according to an article that I was reading from the new Arab that was outlining the criminalization of Palestinian solidarity in Germany Um, news outlets were getting, uh, in, in Germany, we're getting a, um, an internal memo, or at least one did from, uh, ARD, which is, uh, the national, um, German news outlet. Um, and it was, um, you know, I think a lot of journalistic institutions get kind of like guidelines for how we are going to discuss things. Um, but kind of like, really, um, off the rail stuff. I mean, you know, talking about, you know, the slogan from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free is classified as a criminal offense. As a phrase, according to them, means that a free Palestine

in the area from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea means the annihilation of Israel. Germany has banned the vast majority of pro-Palestinian protests and dozens have been detained following marches in Berlin and other German cities. So, like, people are getting arrested for protesting. How does that jive in Germany with the idea? What's the Germans relationship to the idea of free speech and like, you know, that kind of shit? So Germany has like this self-understanding of what's sometimes called like a fortified

democracy where the idea is that if you want to have a democracy that is able to maintain itself, it has to have some tools at its disposal to kind of, like, defend itself against people who want to abolish it, you know? So, like, an instrument in that would be, like, banning a political party that is outright against, like, the, like, democratic order or, like, against, like, our constitution or basic law, as it's called. So those are kind of, like, the tools that we have. And there are kind of, like, ripple effects of this understanding. And also, like, this is kind of, all stems back to, like, the Nazis taken over and, like, the Holocaust and the horror of the Second World War, and how do you reconstruct yourself out of that? So, and in regards to Israel, like, Germany has this, like, Israel was kind of part of, it's, like, German, like, Germany restructuring, like, itself identity in the world, like, being on good terms with Israel and, like,

making sure that like an Israel exists is is part of like making amends and it's like showing that like we can be it's like our way into like the international community in a way yeah so and for and this is really just like I feel like this problem has been in the making for a while because it goes like much deeper than any like contemporary laws or like any restrictions on free speech because in Germany you often hear this this phrase that like the the secure of Israel is like the German word is like state's reason it's like

reason of state yeah yeah exactly and it's like it's not in the constitution whatever but it's kind of like that is what it means for us like this is why we are a nation in parts not only but in parts and I think that isn't

itself a problem as long as Israel is like a normal country as long as it's not engaged engage in, like, gross human rights violations and mass murder. But now it has all kind of come to blows. And I think we're now seeing, like, the effects of what Germany has understood anti-Semitism to be, because, like, each government has to decide for itself, you know,

what even is anti-Semitism? And they are, like, conflicting, they are conflicting a definition. that, you know, the one that the German government goes by or that they recommend to their people is the one from the International Holocaust Remembrance Association, which is not without its detractors. But when they passed that in 2017, they added like an addendum to it that like not only is like attack, our attacks on Jewish people are possibly anti-Semitic, but like Israel understood as like a Jewish collective attacks on are not our necessary can be anti-semitic aren't necessarily but like the

insinuation there is it's probably anti-semitic so we've had a lot of that as well the uh in you know over here um the term that they've tried to you know basically trademark is the new anti-semitism and it has been an obsession mostly among like conservatives and you know neoconservatives uh in the early aughts um this idea of the anti-Semitism as being the real threat to world Jewry. And that threat stems from anti-Israel sentiment coming out of college students who want to rename a salad. You know, like real ticky-tack bullshit, just like, you know, a student group, you know, a Zionist student group being near a Palestinian flag being looked at as like, a threat.

Yeah, so we've had a lot of that. Yeah, I mean, and that's a question where does that take you? If you see, like, okay, the security of Israel is part of Germany's special responsibility to make sure that to let Jewish life on the planet or in Germany, like, survive and thrive, which I think it has a special obligation to think about and to make actions towards. But if you connect that explicitly to Israel, you know, it kind of, leads us to where we are right now and that in itself wouldn't be like as if that wasn't horrible enough you also have like this this like it's really baffling how like Germany has kind of like made

doing a genocide part of its like resume like something that it like like if there's one thing we know about it's what is and isn't a genocide exactly by the way I'm Is it offensive in Germany for an American to do a wacky German accent? It's not to me. Okay, well, then we're good. But yeah, like, it is, I have seen this exact thing where it's on the resume as like, it's an endorsed skill on LinkedIn doing genocide. Oh, South Africa, how many genocides have you done? That's what I thought, you know.

Yeah, trust me, we know a thing. You may know about apartheid, but I think we know. something about genocide all right anyways i support the current government doing the killing yeah it has been interesting seeing that as kind of like um you know at germany's like foray into the whole iCJ um you know trial as being like a supporter of of israel and um talking down to the south africans and being like, you know, we're Germany, okay? We did genocide the best.

So, therefore, we are the ultimate authority on what does and does not constitute genocide, which is, I mean, it's a sickening argument they hear even outside of Germany and German officials, the idea of like what is and isn't a genocide as basically being, until we have reached holocaust than nothing illegal is going on essentially yeah I mean what's so frustrating about it as

specifically for the case in front of the International Kremlin court is that like Germany announced this right after South Africa wrapped up right part of the trial but they didn't even they didn't even say like why

specifically they just said this has no basis and like to excuse Israel of genocide as like you're reversing like the victim. Yes. And the perpetrator, like you're victim blaming, basically. Right. But nothing, nothing even really of substance, you know.

They could have just as well not done this and been, would have been like totally fine. No one would have even expected them to do. Right. To go to the ICC. Yeah. And, you know, it's a very funny thing to watch, you know, the online, you know, Zionist. you know, yelling at South Africa for having the nerve to bring forth their, you know, charge of, you know, genocide and, you know, charge of human rights abuses.

And they're just like, oh, oh, yeah, South Africa, you're going to talk about human rights abuses. I think, I think not, I think not, not with your past. anyways here is the vice chancellor of germany to talk about why the hague is bad and it's like okay so we're gonna yeah let's uh let's parse south africa's past and then bring in uh the german chancellor it's it's like uh you know it's interesting seeing his uh you know the the presser that he did um i actually have a video of it um that i I want to play. But yeah, it was what was his name? I had it written down.

Robert Harbeck, so Vice-Chancellor. Yes, yes. And he had a press conference defending Israel from accusations, a genocide levied by South Africa and by people with eyes. And he specifically singled out the phrase from the river to the sea in this press conference, which has been criminalized in parts of Germany as being a genocidal slogan. And I have a clip of that that I would like to play for the audience here.

Here we go. Actually, those who would commit genocide or desire to do so if given the opportunity or Hamas. Okay, so sorry, I had to, for our podcast audience, I'm doing it. translation of it and i did the accent again because you've got to know he's german in case you didn't know right right the annihilation of the state of israel is on their agenda so we can understand the slogan from the river to the sea as not meaning that jews should leave israel by boat but as an extinction fantasy everybody knows it is a genocidal phrase i sure hope that's my

My characterization of this phrase does not bite me in mine Asher in a few days. One week later, in any arrangement, whether there is an accord or not, the Israeli state must have security control over all the territory west of the Jordan River. It's a necessary condition. So, one week later or so, Benjamin Netanyahu comes out and holds the press conference. Of course, it's in, if it's in Hebrew, you know it's going to be good shit. Because the stuff that he says, whenever Netanyahu or any Israeli official comes out and speaks in English, you're getting pure Hezbar. You're getting just their appeals to the Western sentiment, you know, and they tell you what you want to hear.

When it's in Hebrew, that's when you get stuff like him saying everything West. of the Jordan River must be under the control, security control of Israel, which is, I mean, that is from the river to the sea. Because, you know, the river we're talking about west of the Jordan. Jordan is a river. Everything west of that, it stops at the sea in case you, because I've seen a few people being like, well, he didn't say from the river to the sea. He's like, no, you just outlined the exact coordinates.

that from the river to the sea implies. What really grinds my gears about our Vines Chancellor, who's part of the Greens, which are like the middle class, upper middle class, liberals, kind of like people who donate to Amnesty International interviews supposedly really care about human rights is that while he's just saying this, he just gives the most like affected and like empathetic voice.

He's like, I'm sorry there's no other way Germany for the Germans and fuck those Arabs or something like that you know like I would I would almost prefer if they were just like forethroated like

this is what we believe and not like this like weird dance between two positions that are irreconcilable I completely agree that is my that you know that is that is that is my main

target when it comes to this podcast and then also my own content that I put online is this kind of like wishy-washy liberal Zionism thing where we we want to have our I'm the good guy cake and eat it too you know trying to you know present yourself as the you know progressive you know tolerance whatever empathetic one while at the same time holding this completely contradictory viewpoint that Israel got to do what Israel got to do and it's just so

it's so sickening to me because I you know it's the one thing that I think I and a lot of people detest about liberals is that like I feel like at least right wing people in some sense know they're a piece of shit like deep down

right wingers know their pieces of shit whereas like liberals think they're good I can't have that. Yeah, and like I've really noticed that like this is really like fit in nicely into like the right wood shift that is going on in Germany where prior to October 7th even there was and there still is like a lot of push back on immigration, right, on like Germany becoming more diverse.

And like for liberals who are like kind of nervous about, I don't know, they're the class that their child is in having too many like foreigners in it. whatever, or what they imagine, like this idea of like anti-Semitism in Germany being something that's imported that's like brought in by foreigners from the Arab world is like the perfect like get out of jail free because they can just say, no, we want, we don't want any migrants because we want to protect like Jewish Germans. A hundred percent. It is, I think that's a fantastic point, the idea that is like, you know, we're importing all these. anti-Semites to Germany or to anywhere in Europe, you know, like the idea that like, you know,

the big issue with immigration is mostly, you know, that they're, they're anti-Semitic. They hate women. It's like, this is the entire like liberal argument that holds an incredibly right-wing viewpoint, you know, simultaneously where it's just like, no, no, no, I'm not right-wing. love all these progressive, I have all these progressive values, which is why I don't want the dirty foreigners from the Middle East to come here. And it's like, just be, just be a piece of shit. Just admit it. You know? Yeah. And it's not like, I don't think it's like, it's like from the get go, illegitimate to be concerned about that, that like, if you want

to be part of German society, you got to reject anti-Semitism. But the underlying belief, there is that the underlying liberal belief there is that like oppression inherently makes like people virtuous in a way and if they aren't like fully virtuous

then they're not really oppressed so so that's why they always point to like the homophobia in Gaza in like and all these like fundamentalist values that are holding there and say well you know

even if it has nothing to like even if a person is homophobic like a human rights violation can still be done to them these things really aren't connected but to them they very much are 100% and I've not heard it put that way before but I think that

is exactly right and that like perfectly encapsulates that sort of liberal worldview regarding oppression and victimhood and just the standards that a victim and I feel like the standards are it's obviously a double

standard because you wouldn't you know hold that that same standard towards, you know, a, like an Israeli who was moving there, or like a group of Ukrainians who are... Or German anti-Semite. Right, yeah. And just the idea that you're, you know, you are using that kind of framing of like, oh, well, they're anti-Semitic or they're, you know, homophobic or they are, you know, hate women or whatnot.

you're you're using that it's I mean it's clearly because you're holding this double standard you're not applying that equally you just don't trust Arabs and yeah you know that's just something that they can't admit because then that fucks with their view of themselves as the good guy yeah and just to like put a bow on this like immigration talk in regards to Germany that is also why like after like people celebrated attack on 2nd, like in a couple of cities. Like, there was, like, a big proposal from the conservatives to, if you want to get the German passport, it's, you have to, like, sign a waiver that Israel has a right

to exist. You know, not that you, like, reject anti-Semitism in all its form, but specifically in reference to Israel, which is very telling in my opinion. Yeah, yeah, incredibly telling. Yeah, the idea. I mean, and I think that is something that you see, I mean, beyond just that, you see that in the way that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism have been interlinked, that one has superseded the other at this point, where it is kind of okay to be anti-Semitic as long as you support

Israel. Because if you support Israel, that is the ultimate expression of loving Jews, which, you know, as a Jew I'm like huh because for me for example you know I as someone who goes on Twitter still

big mistake but it's still on that horrible website Elon Musk has done this thing where he has opened the floodgates to the Nazis you know and they have been they've really been like going crazy at least in my mentions for the last

like month or so And you see simultaneously his promotion of these pro-Israel has barris on the timeline where he's like, he has set the algorithm to push their posts. And, you know, he is, he went to Israel, he, you know, kissed the ground. I think the onion said, like, he cried tears. and he, you know, he was so happy to be back in an apartheid state. And, you know, like, this idea of, like, you can say all the anti-Semitic shit that you want and hold all the, like, obviously, you know, anti-Semitic coded views that exist out there,

like your great replacement theories or whatever right-wing fucking, you know, Soros shit you want to put out there, anti-George Soros shit. But you can do all that as long as you are supporting Israel, you know, which is the avatar for all Jews now. And yeah, it's interesting, you know, bringing up the immigration thing, at least for me, because, you know, in America we have a different, like, you know, anti-immigrant thing because all of our immigrants are from Latin America. or at least that's the ones we we target and of course in in Europe in the last decade or so you see a lot more of the anti-Arab immigration things at least on the right so what's what I want to ask is about like the there's to me there's a new right wing that exists that is coming out of sort of the mixture of pro-Zionist, pro-Israel politics and anti-Arab sentiment

where you've basically got people who are spouting right-wing talking points about immigrants and whatnot, but freeing themselves from the burden of being labeled anti-Semites and by supporting Israel. Have you seen a change? How much has that melded into sort of like more left-leaning or liberal like spheres, at least in Germany? Like how much is the anti-immigrant stuff like starting to, at least since the seventh, like pop up again? and are you seeing it from liberal spaces or liberal commentators? Yes, I would say generally that Germany has like soured on the idea of immigration a lot and being becoming like a more diverse society over the last two to three years.

And what you're saying about like the getting under, getting out of the accusation of anti-Semitism, like it really drives home that point when you look at like Germany's far right, which is the AFD, which is polling at like 20% nationally right now. It's highest it's ever been. Holy shit. And specifically in the East, they're like a full-on, like, neo-Nazi party. They're like the Wehrmacht really didn't do anything wrong and whatever, you know. Like, they're about as extreme as you can get.

But if you look into what they do in parliament, like the anti-BDS resolution that was passed in parliament was initially a proposal from them like from the a fd you know because because the like if you're on the far right it like the goals of israel and your own goals like really don't like diverge as much you know it actually it plays it plays into your hands this idea of that um like jews aren't really safe anywhere except for in israel because you know if you're far right you want them gone out of your country as well. But yes, right now I do remember something like that. It's not specifically in regards to immigration,

but it was really a moment where I like turned around and I felt like, am I going crazy here? Like, I'm not understanding this at all anymore. And there was a protest organized by like the government on October 10th in front of the Brunton-Borgate, huge protests. Right. And the co-head of the Green Party,

you can see I really have like a thing out for them. He held a speech. And he said, this really stuck in my mind because this was so shocking to me, he said that like for a morally upstanding person, there is no other option than to stand with Israel, the homestead of the Jewish people. And I was like,

how can like a progressive guy like to cheers and nobody like bats and i say like imply that like a jewish germans homestead is israel and it's not like it's not germany yeah that is so crazy and that like i that is something that i would see as deeply anti-semitic but it doesn't didn't even register you know we're not even talked about it no you are uh your your uh your anti-semitism gauge is correct dan that is insanely anti-Semitic and you're not crazy, nor is this an experience that you've had like, you know, just for you. A lot of people have had this exact experience of, you know, feeling like, am I insane or are people saying that Jews, either my Jewish friends or me

personally am not from here? And that is insane. It is anti-Semitic. And I think, you know, I think doing it in front of the Brandenbergate in Germany is obviously, like, even more like, oh, shit, okay. Like, that's, you know, that, that kind of sentiment there obviously carries a more powerful punch. But, like, yeah, it is, it is something that we've seen a lot over here. the kind of I mean we had our president Joe Biden

That was insane Yeah Butch her Biden We had him say Without Israel not a Jew in the world is safe As if it is not literally his job To keep all of his citizens safe Yeah

Must feel great to hear that from like your president Yeah no it was like this insane thing That like at least every Jewish person that I know who, you know, I am still talking to, obviously there are a few we are not on speaking terms since the seventh because they are losing their mind a little bit, but they, yeah, everyone was just like, what the fuck, this isn't a normal thing to say, and watching people try to explain it away or, you know, either because they are Zionists or

because they are just fucking, you know, blue team people, they just love the Dems. And they're like, no, Dems always say good thing. And if they say bad thing, it was accident or you're bad. And yeah, this is just like an insanely charged time for anti-Semitic statements that are wrapped in the gift wrapping of pro-Israel statements. And then it's really like a one-to punch where you have like, that like makes you think, am I crazy? And then you get like a huge op-ed about like how Greta Thunberg is like anti-Semitic for for having a squid standing with Palestine. Yeah.

She got she got a, she got a puffy little, you know, stuffed animal squid and they're just like, well, well, well, look at these dog whistles. And I'm like, dog whistles. You want to talk about dog whistles? You just said I'm not from here. Yeah, it is, it is interesting. And, you know, I think one of the things that. a lot of pro-Palestinian or Jewish-Palestinian solidarity groups

I have been trying to do is like show kind of like the hypocrisy in the way that in order to protect Jews, they are mass-arresting Jewish protesters who speak out against the genocide in Gaza. and um there was one uh video uh recently or semi recently um this is happening also in germany um we had uh you guys had uh iris uh hefetz how do you pronounce that heffitz yeah i see if you nailed it yeah hell yeah uh held up a poster uh on uh herman plats in Berlin that said

quote as a Jew and Israeli stop the genocide in Gaza the police asked her to take down the poster and stop protesting alone she refused and was temporarily arrested and I have a video of that as well and it's you know again it packs

more of a punch when you see it you know in Germany where yeah all right this person is a Jewish Israeli, German, as a Jewish and Israeli, stop the genocide and Gaza. Within seconds, the Berliner police arrested her, commanding her to take the sign down.

And she is speaking with the Polizai, knowing her democratic rights, she refused. Shortly afterwards, she was arrested. They're taking her into a police trailer, which seems kind of a police trailer, which seems kind of nice. If you've ever been on a movie set, it looks similar to that, except for, I think, locks from the outside. Since the beginning of the war on Gaza, Berlin are police banned voices condemning, hold on, condemning the killing of civilians, unless these civilians are Jews. Yeah, it is, that's wild to see. Yeah, it really makes you, it makes you, like, scratch your head. If you have this assumption that, like, Germany has, like, really this commitment to, like, keep Jews saying.

in give them like a voice in Germany but it really all makes sense if you if you if you understand like what we talked about in the beginning where like an anti-Semitic act can be act against like the state of Israel and if you go by that definition it makes perfect sense that like the German state would arrest a Jewish person for anti-Semitic incitement you know yeah yeah yeah and it's not just that incident has happened like multiple times that has happened and it's not always arresting like there have been numerous um like jewish intellectuals who let's say like wrote an op-ed in like the american press um one specifically compared to like the situation in gaza to like the warso ghetto uprising

and they have their their shows canceled or um like their contracts rescinded and all and stuff like that yeah germans you know yeah masha um oh i i need to get the name but uh it was Masha Gessen, Russian-American journalist and writer who was going to get

a Hannah Arendt Prize and had, I think, not the prize canceled, but the ceremony itself was... Well, what happened? They first canceled the they first canceled the whole thing and then there was

an enormous blowback from other intellectuals because the foundation that gives out the Hannah had the Aaron Price like close to the Greens. It's a lot of like, as I said, like upper-class liberals, academics.

And there was a lot of blowback internationally as well. So she actually got the prize in the end, but which a much smaller ceremony. Yeah. But initially it was all canceled. Was it a smaller prize, too? Like, they shrunk the trophy down. She broke it in half. They broke it in half.

They were like, here's your fucking prize. And yeah. So, you know, she, or they were, you know, went through all this trouble and got it, you know, this Hanna-Orent Prize for political thought, you know, taken away and then given back, all because they compared Gaza to Jewish ghettos in an article, in an essay that they wrote in The New Yorker. That was December 14th. December 31st in the Jerusalem Post is a little quote from our old pal. in the Knesset right-wing ghoul Smotrich admitted as much that they, the Palestinians, want to go. They have been forcibly held against their will in a ghetto for 75 years in poverty and told that the only resolution to the situation is to destroy Israel and return to Haifa and

Siberia. Yeah. So, like, just the idea of, you know, the Israeli right is going, you know, publicly just being like, yeah, we know what Gaza is. It is a ghetto. That is what we've done. We have ghettoized them and not ghetto in the way that like a, you know, the American inner city ghetto or whatnot. Or, you know, this is a ghetto ghetto. Like, and I believe Masha said, essentially what this amounts to, this war in Gaza, is the liquidation of the ghetto. And this is exactly what the more scary but more honest right-wing Kinesit members like Ben Gavir and Smotrich are saying out loud, like, yes, this is a ghetto, and we're about to liquidate this shit.

And even beyond that, like, even if that was like a wholly inaccurate statement, you know, just like the goal for like a German association to like especially because the Hannah Aaron Price for political thought like to say to tell like a Jewish intellectual sorry you're cancelled because you're too

problematic for us like in Germany is just very yeah it's very concerning to me actually like it's quite scary and it's like it's all so it's also it's also on the nose level ironic like it's it's it's if this were written, you know, in fiction, you would just be like, I don't know, you're kind of,

kind of beat me over the head here with the dramatic irony, you know, but it's, you know, it is real life. It's not fiction. These are completely, you know, contradictory views that to anyone with a brain and a sense of irony would be, like, laughable at the idea of, like, canceling this you know, like the Germans being like, no, don't give this Russian-American journalist the Jewish prize and, you know, let's arrest the Jews for doing anti-Semitism. It's just so on the nose. Like, what the what I think is really important there and what that specifically draws into focus is that a lot of people have this assumption that like, oh, the Germans, they can't help themselves like they're just overzealous because of their history and it's really not that it's

it's not about it's not about protecting a jewish sensibilities it's about protecting german sensibilities for germans for their self-perception to combat anti-semitism is like being a good person which it is but they extended fully to israel and all its actions so so they would rather like cancel the talk of a jewish intellectual than reckon with that discrepancy. Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing. It's like, yes, it is true that to be against anti-Semitism is good and makes you, at least in that sense, a good person.

Of course. The idea, though, is that, you know, at least with liberals, is it's using this as a way to either not honestly engage with this intellectually in any sense, or using it for the purposes of holding an incredibly right-wing view. And, you know, so you either have liberals who are, you know, useful idiots for the right, or you have liberals who are, you know, not really all that liberal, you know, and get to just, you know, look at themselves as a good person and hold these completely conflicting views. Yeah, it's just, it's one of the things that I think blows my mind when it comes to the way we talk about Zionism and the way that anti-Zionism has been turned completely into this idea of anti-Semitism, where you have allowed yourself to, you know, hold anti-Semitic views and allow anti-Semitism.

uh you know to happen uh and cheer it on but because it's pro israel you're like well that's fine you know i'm i am as long as i feel good like i'm the good guy in the end then i i can i can let this happen right and and it's not like there aren't like um discerning uh jewish voices in germany about this as well it's just that they're they're kind of like pushed out of their conversation a little bit like one of them oh yeah um is let not just a little bit One of them is like Deborah Feldman, who had like a sort of like a mini debate on a public broadcast with our vice chancellor, where she said that she feels very uncomfortable about her, like her Jewish identity being used as this sort of fig leaf to back the actions of a transparently, like far right in part's fascist government. And she has been, and she explicitly said, like, it's not. great being a Jew in Germany that doesn't like Israel.

And she has been, like, criticized for that a lot, like, especially, especially from Germans and from, like, from conservatives for even, like, suggesting that. And, but in their mind, like, and they have said this publicly, like, the idea of a Jewish person that doesn't fully agree with, like, Israel, what's been doing for 40 years in terms of the occupation or just on a regular basis, like, that is almost, like, non-existent to them. It's like here and there there are a few, but it's not really something that even registers on their radar at all. Right. And I think that it's, that is a willing denial of that the diversity of thought around Israel within Jewish communities all over the world outside of Israel and inside of Israel is like, you know that there are Jews who are. are huge critics of Israel, but the idea of giving them any air would piss people off,

especially some of the more, some of the more like well-funded institutions and the ones that, the institutions that have power and sway are going to be like, no, we need to ignore that because that totally fucks up our narrative. The idea of the, you know, Jewish antisemitism, Zionist or the Jewish critic of Israel is a real narrative killer for anyone who is trying to paint a broad solidarity within the Jewish community as being pro-Israel, like this idea of, like, you know, if you are mean to Israel, you are mean to Jews. And that only works if you are painting every Jew as being essentially Israel, as every Jew in its collective is Israel. They just don't all live there yet, which is another way of just saying that Jews are a group of people

with dual loyalty who have no ties to their host country and that they're just there to, you know, have power and all the, you know, fucking anti-Semitic tropes. Yeah. Yeah, and what you're saying about, like, this being, like, a structural issue is, like, it's so true. And this is exactly what this intellectual letter just mentioned, Deborah Feldman, maligned in German society, is that the voices you hear of, the voices you hear from German Jews are from these institutions, like the central council of Jews, or, like, the German-Israeli society, which are, like, explicitly Zionist in parts. like not just you know if you there is a difference between saying like as a german i think it's good that like israel exists as this idea of a safe haven for the jewish people you know that's one thing just like in a vacuum you know putting everything else to the side but but like but then you also have like people from like the head of the central council of jews accused like grader thunberg

of being anti-semitic right um they have they're connected to a newspaper um that's called like Yudisha Algemeine, which is Germany's largest newspaper and they published an op-ed piece last week by a German by a German member of the Liberal Party just saying like the civilians in

Gaza are not innocent and basically just like making the case that there is like there is collective punishment is justified in the instance of Gaza. I don't know why you would try to make that point as like a

German or maybe like chill out on that point but yeah at least like let someone else make that point fucking weirdo like it is it is so insane but yeah no I was I actually wanted to ask you about that very thing because I know about the systemic issue or the the institutional issue around the conflation of Jewishness and you know Zionist because in the the United States, you know, with our institutions, we, or at least within the institutional Jewish community, all of our institutions are not all, but a large, large portion of our institutions have done a complete Zionist pivot to a degree that I think is dangerous for Jews in the United States. The big example being the ADL, you know, the Anti-Defamation League was,

I think, started after the lynching of Leo Frank in like the early 1900s. And it was created logging anti-Semitic incidents in the United States and being a civil rights group, a pro-civil rights organization um and the fact is is that now and for the past i don't know how many decades maybe you know a couple um but at least in the last in my lifetime the ADL i've watched it go from being a group that for the most part you know would say come out and be like hey that thing that that guy said about Jews you know being bad that's anti-semitic to being a place that denies um you know

anti-semitism uh coming from the right or at least ignores it in favor of uh trying to get the hadid family canceled or like trying to get a college student in trouble for you know ripping down a poster or you know like these are institutions that were created in order to, you know, keep American Jews safe. And the idea that they have been co-opted completely by the Israel lobby and are a part of the Israel lobby in the United States to me is like, terrifying because of the fact that it just completely discounts the idea that an American Jew might have other things on their mind to worry about coming from the right you know uh so yeah i wanted to ask about what kind of institutions you have there um in

germany that are you know that are now just or have they always been um Zionist or have they have they been kind of like a combination where they have like you know um yeah i'm interested in them i like i don't know about the the jewish german council like i'd never heard that before So for like the political question, should like in Israel exist or does it have a right to exist or whatever, is it secure and important? That's a question that's completely settled in German politics. That is like that's like the baseline. Israel has a right to exist. You know, even if you believe, well, does it have a right to exist as apartheid state? Whatever.

You know, that's the baseline. But yeah, what you're saying is exactly right about this like far right co-opting and like this is why. this like Germany is talking so much about imported anti-Semitism well at the same time like the AFD is polling at like a 20% nationally which is like our second second most popular party right now you know and um we actually had like a ton of like anti far right protests um over the weekend like hundreds of thousands of people but including incidents where people who like had like like Palestinian scarves on or something like that were explicitly like shut out of those protests

and I you know I don't know this is just anecdotal but I've seen like people complaining about being like spat on or like assaulted yeah

by the right or by the people no no no no by this was explicitly by like climate activists basically yeah because you know this is this is like

what combating anti-Semitism has like morphed into in Germany but in terms of like Germany doesn't really have anything like A-PAC, for instance. It's pretty self-sustaining. And it's not hard to understand why because if you're a German person for whom this topic is from the get-go uncomfortable, I could totally understand

like the German government just never talk about this at all. Being like, come on, bro, like, can someone else take this one? We really want to deal with this. There's a lot of countries that can talk about this, right? We'll just lay back in the cut. please not us yeah exactly if you're a german person for whom this is already uncomfortable and you see that like the central council of jews in germany is saying greta thunberg is like borderline anti-semitic right like the cards are just like stacked against you to even like

question that because you want to you you want to be like an upsetting citizen citizen and combat anti-semitism and be an ally to jewish people in germany so yeah it's like everything is kind of like set up in a way where um it naturally goes towards the end of these institutions who like they're not like hardcore Zionists and they might even like criticize net and yahoo whatever because he's like the great sin eater of it yeah he really is Israeli society yeah um but yeah that's typically like the way it works it's like there isn't even like there's no need for like a pack making donations or whatever it's pretty self-sustaining and it's just like in germany that just sounds a thousand times

worse than, you know, like at least in America, you know, with regards to our history of anti-Semitism, like we for sure have an anti-Semitic history. But I mean, you know, it's not, you know, in America, we are a deeply racist, deeply anti-Black society. And, you know, that is kind of our, that's our anti-Semitism is just the constant othering of, you know, black Americans and anti-blackness. And so not to say that, you know, it's okay if the ADL is, you know, now watered down to the point of just being a right-wing Zionist organization, but saying that in Germany, having your Jewish institutions be completely co-opted by Zionists is a lot scarier because of the

history of German anti-Semitism where it's like I think you need these institutions they hold in a pretty important role on a societal level that needs to be separate from the idea of being this like foreign lobbying group you know this is we Germany wants to encourage the idea of safety among Jews in Germany we not not pivot to the idea that you know Jews oh don't worry about you know German Jews whatever they're they're probably they'll be fine let's concentrate on you know

activists who are talking about genocide in Gaza like that that as you know for German Jews I can imagine is like a pretty frightening prospect especially considering like they're in Germany and they don't want to move like yeah yeah especially

and like you have on the ones especially if you're like a German Jew who's critical of the Israel of the Israeli government like you have that on the one side and then you have like the far right on the other side and then yeah

you're also kind of like sometimes like collectively held responsible like it's not like an isolated incident that like a person who has like a keeper in Berlin is like assaulted or aggravated or whatever it's terrifying like it's I imagine it's terrifying for Jewish

Germans and for for Germans of Palestinian descent the same. Yeah. Yeah, it is, it's wild. And, you know, it's like, I'm fascinated by it because I know that Germany

in recent years has had a lot of, like, has had a lot more Jewish immigration. I forget where I read that the fastest growing, Jewish population in the world right now is not Israel, it's, uh, it's Germany. And I was like, oh, that's wild. And that's fucking cool. Um, and, uh, you know, scary for, um, you know, anyone who's a German Jew there who was watching this all go down and watching the far right party up 20% of the vote. That's fucking terrifying. Yeah. Another layer on this is that like what makes

this so you probably feel the same way what makes this like so painful is that this comes all like this and this enthusiastic support for um for israel's conduct in gaza or as like our vice chancel said like harsh harsh conduct um like comes out the heels of like two years of like totemizing and like fetishizing the idea of like international law in regards to like the Ukraine-Russia conflict and like if we don't like support them there then like the whole like Western like value system is on trial there and this really matters and like telling countries in the global south that no no no it's the time where we use like international laws is like cynical peace to advance our interest that's over we really mean at this time in regards to Ukraine

and Russia and now Gaza having all of that like flies out the window yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's just like oh never mind never mind on all that you know some some places uh international law doesn't apply to. And, yeah, that's, I got to say, that's always good. That's always good for any minority group in a country. And just for the state of the world is when you have international norms just being like, you know, we're all just kind of pretending to follow these norms. But they're unenforceable.

So some countries are just going to be able to do whatever the fuck they want to do. I feel like if you're like the German setting, you really care about like keeping Jewish people safe, like this sort of attitude, this like disaffected attitude in regards to this issue really puts like more, like it does more harm than it does good to like the Jews of Germany, Jews and Israel, because like there is no future for like the Palestinians. Like there there is no way out of this. We're just waiting for you to just like go away so we can stop feeling uncomfortable about this issue. and I think that's kind of like if there was like an honest attempt for like a two state solution that was like pushed on I feel like the tensions wouldn't be as heightened in that region yeah I mean you know it'd be it'd be nice for the people who don't want to engage with it in general and that's why I understand when people push the two state solution you know as their own personal shield against, like, engaging with this issue, you know, just like, uh, it is, uh, it's a way of being like, hey, you know, uh, I just want everyone, I just want, I just want, I think, um, bad things are bad and I think everyone, like, love is good and, uh, everyone should have their

own state and whatnot, you know, and it's like we are now at a time in which, uh, neither Palestinians nor Israelis are pushing for that. I mean, you know, Palestinians are pushing for broad civil rights throughout the land and the right to return and the right to vote. And Israelis are pushing for a one-state solution that ethnically cleanses the parts where there are too many Arabs and where they can get a majority. Or they're just pushing for the status quo of continued apartheid. And, you know, back when you know there was talks of the two-state solution or a roadmap to peace or whatever you know fucking uh like think tank institute in washington you know named their fake peace plan that would

never happen um you know it was a way to kind of like push and ignore the issue and make people feel more comfortable about it um because it was just another can you were going to kick down the road anyways at least you could say you tried um But anyways, I'm getting too deep. But it would be so easy to find the middle road there in regards to like October 7 where like the German government could just come out and say, this is horrible. Like we stand with you. We stand with the victims, with the families of the hostages. Right.

Go and like put everyone to justice who was involved in this. But don't kill like an indiscriminate amount of civilians. And also we might not like if you do that, we might not like give you our full support and deliver you like munitions for your attention. thanks, which German governor is doing right now. So I don't know why, like, they wouldn't lose, like, their face to anyone acting that way. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, what they would lose is they would lose the support of, you know, Europe and, you know, the United States. And, you know, anyone who's fucking, that's the thing is, like, no one wants to, no one wants to do that.

as long as the United States is supporting Israel to the fullest, no one in Europe's fucking touching that. They're following in line, you know, and if they do like... Except for Ireland. Except for Ireland because Ireland fucking rules. I love the Irish. You know, they're just, you know, good people. Sure, they're drunks.

Sure. They, you know, they don't like masturbation or whatever. Or they think if you masturbate, Jesus Christ, but they're pro-Palestinian, and that's what's important. This is it really, honestly, we could go on and on with this. But we do have to wrap up, and I know it's late. You're in Germany, right? Yes. So I know it's late there. Before we get out of here, you know, it would not be an episode of Bad Hasbara without playing a little bit of Hasbara.

This is, here's someone sent me this video of a couple of Israeli college students going around mocking the idea that Israel's an apartheid state by pointing out that in Israel, they allow Arabs to go to school. Wow. Yeah, so I have a little bit of that that I'm going to play for all of us right here. And look, it's the apartheid. We're walking into the apartheid. It's the apartheid. It's the apartheid.

It's the apartheid. Perfect example of apartheid. Freedom of speech in Israel. And look, we don't take it down. And if you don't understand, this means this is everyone's home, Jews and Arabs living together. Oh wait, wait, something's happened to the video. what is this it seems to be a group of white and black people

Africans black and white Asian and color well it seems to be from the 80s this is our South Africa oh I see it is for those you listening at home this was spliced together with a a little promotional ad from apartheid South Africa in which they were going around showing black people and white people living together, talking together, people laughing, people having fun. There's Elon. Yeah, Elon's there, you know, like thinking about one day fucking Grimes and making rockets and, you know, eventually pivoting to Jew hatred. We are a rich variety of people, indelibly joined by our past to our future and our diverse mixture of languages.

cultures, religions, make us a truly cosmopolitan society. And as Africans, we are living and working together, sharing a common goal. That of a better tomorrow. Yeah, that better tomorrow is going to be a few years away after the United States stopped supporting apartheid South Africa. Just so, like, desperate. Like, you're just going to ask, okay, cool, like, can you? you and that guy, that Arab-Muslim guy over there, can you guys get married?

Right, yeah, and it's over, you know. Yeah. Does he have any family in the West Bank? Oh, can they come over and hang out? Or how about this? Can they build? Let's say they wanted to, you know, like buy up some land and build a house there. Can they do that? No. Oh, can they collect rainwater? like the amount of like desperation that comes from these accounts is so crazy because you see you see the um the level of discourse as to or like the level of what is what is apartheid like constituting

the definition of being like oh it can't be apartheid if if some people speak Arabic it can't be apartheid if there is, you know, people in, you know, in universities in Tel Aviv who are Arabs. And completely ignoring the siege of the West Bank, completely ignoring the occupation, or say the siege of Gaza, the occupation of the West Bank, completely ignoring every single facet of it and being like, no, but I can make a nice promo video, you know? It can't be apartheid because we invented the soda stream. That's right. We invented soda stream and bad people could not have made bubbly water everyone knows that only good people drink the bubbly water um yeah and just i just love the uh the fact that in that video if you

if you watch it again you'll see that every time um they are in a public space where there's any people around they are whispering apartheid like they go there's the apartheid like they They won't even full-throats say it because, number one, they don't want to have any right-wing Israelis looking at them going, what the fuck are you doing? And number two, they don't want any Arabs going like, wait, what are you making right now? Yeah, can I say something on this? Yeah, like literally, just the idea of that you watch the video, you'll see that they are whispering. Oh, here's that apartheid. It's like, oh, yeah.

This guy wearing a hat scarf, you know. Yeah, look at that. I'm just taping them from far away. I don't want them to see. Yeah. You know that you're, you know, you believe in the, the moral rightness of your statement when you whisper the sarcastic premise.

At least, that's like a good, that's like a reason to be optimistic, right? That this, like, it's so pathetic. And, you know, we have this. We have almost Alan Dershowitz representing Israel, at the ICC like it's not it's not going great for them I think yeah yeah on the Hezbar front you know there's the one thing that keeps me going the one thing that like keeps me thinking you know if things could a Palestine could one day be free is uh that at this point they have

forgotten how to do PR and uh the the the the the worst it gets the more I go like oh shit we're gonna win this um but yeah hey you know apartheid's South Africa also made a lot of great videos and, hey, you got to love it. All right. That is our podcast. Dan, I really want to thank you so much for coming on and talking with me at Bad Hasbara. Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you.

Of course. Where can people find you? You can find me on X, although I rarely post there, except for how much I hate our government pretty much and iron dice the iron dice my podcast you can also go to patreon.com slash dan arrows we also have a discord if you're one of those people in germany that feels isolated there are a lot of like-minded people there um yeah um yeah check uh check out my stuff check out dan's patreon uh and check out uh iron dice uh dan seriously thank you so much uh and uh i'd love to have you back on soon as

you know this continues I mean hopefully I this doesn't continue and I won't have to have you back on soon nor have this podcast anymore but if it does please come back again this was a fascinating and enlightening conversation for me

yeah I would love to thank you so much hell yeah and thank you all out there for listening patreon.com slash frotcast for all of these episodes plus other episodes Email me, please. Bad Hasbara at gmail.com. I want to say, this is a call, an official call to everyone out there who listens to this podcast.

If you are someone who is a Jewish person, or even, you know, if you were raised in Christian Zionism, who is now coming to realize kind of what. what's going on and you don't have any place, you know, in which you can say these things publicly. Please, I would love to hear your stories. We had a great email recently that I'm going to read on the next episode. I'm at least going to read some of it. And people have been coming to this podcast and talking a lot about their own experiences within Zionism and how they kind of got out of it. And the family that they are either losing because of it or the family. they don't talk to that much anymore or you know when they do talk they don't talk about anything

serious um and i encourage people to please uh write or send a voice memo uh if you want to tell your story and want me to play it on the podcast bad hasbara at gmail.com um i love hearing stories of people who uh were involved in spreading hasbara when they were younger and are now uh realizing what they were what they were doing was kind of just being a propagandist uh yeah bad has bar at gmail.com all right everyone thanks again so much for listening and until next time from the river to the scene let's agree to disagree godmaga us all karate us taking molly us michael jacks and umaha keyboards us Georgia makes not us

Andor was us Heath Ledger Joker us Endless Fred success Happy Meals was us McDonald's was us Being happy us Bequelin yoga us Eating food us

Breathing air us Drinking water us We invented all that shit Thank you.