Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - Bad Hasbara 82: Not Alone, with Roger Waters

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Matt and Daniel are joined by legendary Pink Floyd bassist and lyricist Roger Waters for a discussion of Roger’s introduction to anti-zionism and being called a shameful coward by Radiohead’s Thom Yorke, and we ask our audience to be chill and normal about the barks of one Sweet Georgia Brown.Support Muslim Aid USA at mausa.orgFind everything Roger Waters at rogerwaters.comSubscribe to the Patreon https://www.patreon.com/badhasbaraSubscribe/listen to Bad Hasbara wherever you get  your podcasts.Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/5RDvo87OzNLA78UH82MI55Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bad-hasbara-the-worlds-most-moral-podcast/id1721813926Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Mawashwam hot bitch, a rib and cocoa toast We invented the terry tomato And weighs USB drives and the iron dome Israeli salad, oozy, stents and javas orange rose Micro chips is us iPhone cameras us Taco salads us Pothamos us

All the garden us White foster us Zabrahamas As far as us Hello everyone and well Welcome to Bad Hasbara. This is the world's most moral podcast. It's the world's most.

Sorry. Was that in seven? That was in seven. That was a tight seven four. I had to work on it to get the extension, you know. But you did it. You scanned it perfectly. My name is Matt Leap.

I will be your most moral co-host. I'm Daniel Mate, the other one of those most moral co-hosts. Absolutely. This is a very exciting episode. So we're not going to do the thing. where we have an intro that's so long that people start getting nervous that we don't have a guest. Instead, we're going to go as fast as possible. So, of course, first, give us five stars in a review, and then press subscribe,

and then tell your friends to do so as well. Demand it. Yes. And then second, shout out to producer Adam Levin on the ones and twos hitting us with all the beautiful drops and kairons. And today's episode is brought to you by our sponsor, who's not really a sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by Muslim Aid USA. Muslim Aid USA works to reduce the risk of flooding and contamination in the Al-Nasar and Al-Satar neighborhoods in Gaza by improving community-level water infrastructure,

installing wastewater pipelines and increasing access to hygiene and sanitation, and creating temporary employment opportunities for, locals. So please, if you have any money and you want to give it to some people who are doing some good stuff in Gaza, please go to mausa.org and give them money. But if you have any other money, if you have any extra, if you have even more extra, please go to our Patreon. Patreon.com slash Bad Hasbara. Once a week, you will be getting a bonus episode where we will either be doing a bonus live stream or just talking shit sometimes we have a great guest sometimes it's just us hanging out so please do that uh we have one that's going to be about a movie that we watched a

a biopic about gold of my ear that we're finally going to talk about with my friend vince mancini so please subscribe uh daniel what are you spinning what is the spin well you know the spin started off kind of just boring and straight ahead i mean what the fuck are you going to do when you have roger Waters on your podcast. You're not going to have dark side of the moon spinning. You're not going to have fucking, you know, animals.

You know, the wall isn't going to be featured. Come on. Then I thought, okay, let's branch out a little bit. Let's get, you know, and I thought, who's covered Pink Floyd? And the only Pink Floyd cover I could think of in my collection was this EP by Primus,

multiple miscellaneous debris where they cover have a cigar. Oh, I didn't know. Credited to Roger Waters. Wow. Great cover, actually. But then I thought, could I get any more creative than that? So, I present a few other, a few other spins, spinoffs.

Pink droid. I like it. I like it. Playing lifts. Yoshimi battles the pink robots. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pink noid, isn't paranoid. Run the jewels, three.

Four, sorry. And finally, pink Freud. Wow. Very bad. Very, very bad. But Tori Amos, under the pink. Pink. And just to finish things off, today, folks, I am Pink La Croyd with this watermelon-flavored spuggling water drink, which we're not endorsing. It's just what I happen to have. We don't know

if they're bad or not. They could be bad. We don't know what list they are or not on. But for now it's worth it for the pun. And the refreshment. And the refreshment, at least on your end. All right. That was embarrassing. That was wonderful. That was the spin. And without further ado, we are going to introduce our guest uh ladies and gentlemen uh we you know often have uh mega superstars on this podcast like mostly just friends of ours you know but uh this is really exciting uh this is i guess we've been trying to get for a while very excited that we were actually able to make this happen uh shout out to your brother daniel for helping hook this up uh with that i mean what else can you say this man needs no introduction uh you know him you love him ladies and gentlemen and everyone

else welcome roger waters is here on bad has barra wow hi hi very exciting we're all how was that how was that wait for you there roger yeah was that too long it was fucking great i love okay good okay good my dog came and said hello and she was here at moment and she'll come back and say hello Oh, we'd love to meet her. I love it. My missus came through. She's gotten a car and driven away, so I don't have to worry about. Does your dog have a Brazilian name with a bunch of vowels?

Or is it like Craig? My dog's name is, no. My dog's name is actually the name of a song. My dog's name is Sweet Georgia Brown. Oh, wow. Hang the dog. Hey, don't. Georgia.

That's the Harlem Glow Trotter's theme song. Come on. Oh, see. I didn't know that song had a name. There she does, yeah. Come on up. There we go. I love a surprise guest on this podcast.

Yeah, lift it. Oh, look at this. That's a good boy. Hey, good, what did you say? I think you just misgendered Roger Waters' dog. I'm so sorry. If you were a boy, you wouldn't be called sweet George Brown. He'd be called sweet George Brown.

Yeah, that was. Yeah, sweet George Brown. Hey, hey, look, get the middle. Wave. Hi. Hey. Take a bath. Can you say free Palestine?

All right. She's good. Roger, we're very excited to have you on. This, you know, we've had a lot of guests who have dealt with different levels of smears throughout their careers. You know, some people who are obviously earlier in their careers, comedians and such, who were scared to, come on but felt like the need to say something during a genocide and of course got in trouble

for it. People who have dealt with different levels of smear campaigns. You my friend have dealt with some of the I think most vicious attacks for so long that you're

almost like you're almost like the original fall guy for anti-Zionism you know, like for, you, you have been maligned most of my life. And unlike us, you don't have the, oh, but I'm Jewish thing to fall back on. Right. Exactly.

Yeah. No. So can you tell me? As far as we know. Yeah. Exactly. You could, you never know. You just got to check the old 23 in me.

But can you tell me like the last 15 months have, obviously. been, or 16 months now, have obviously been incredibly devastating. Is there any part of you that during this time felt a little bit of optimism and that people were finally starting to understand what Zionism is and what Israel is? Yeah, there's a small part of me, a small part of, you know, the bit of my brain that thinks, that keeps thinking, sure, they'll get it sooner or later and that's happening right up until the second you know obviously I see the pictures like we all do and I was very struck by the pictures day before yesterday of them all walking home up the coast going north all leaving

rafa and walking up through central Gaza towards northern Gaza so what except there's nothing up there guys except rubble and and there's still what is trump going to do you know these are the questions that we're all asking ourselves every day what's going to do if he remains faithful to Maria Madelson and her several million dollars that she's given him over the last couple of elections and few years or whatever he'll just declare greater he actually the last tiny video I made, which was a couple of days ago, I made in response to him saying, oh, what a mass gasser is, and it's such great property, see views, and so I did a little thing called the good, the bad and the ugly, and he is the ugly. And suggesting that his only

interest, as you would expect from Donald Trump, is in the real estate. And his ghastly son-in-law, Jared Kushner said nothing else but why don't they just do the deal and we can sell apartments and all we have to do is get rid of the Palestinians and everything will be fine or we can do a deal with them you know why don't they just accept

Thrupp and Siege to fuck off and then everything will be fine so there's that going on as you can see it doesn't take a great deal to raise the temperature of my blood and make me start dropping the F-bomb all over your programme Oh, please do. That's all we do is say fuck.

Oh, good. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Yes. And fuck them. You know, I see Daniel Fuchs, my painterly friend in London, he signs off every night by tweeting, fuck Israel. And then every morning he signs back on, fuck Israel. And I've sort of given up retweeting it because he's.

every day but thank you dan this just in fuck israel still exactly so do i have a sense yeah because you it's a bit like how long can this go on but maybe people were thinking that in 1935 and 36 and 37 and 38 39 in europe about the germans how long it'll go on until they fucking destroyed the world or we call them to heal into order. Tell them that it was all a terrible mistake. Israel is over.

Zionism was a horrible, horrible white and religious supremacist disaster. And it's happened. But you have to stop and you're all going to have to get into therapy if you're adult for the next 20 or 30 years. And if you haven't been born yet for the next 50

or 60 years, to adapt yourself to the idea that what has meaning in life is to be a human and humane human being. And that is what brings joy to our lives, not being somebody who believes that they're so special that they can take whatever they want and they're allowed to kill everyone who's not one of their religion, all over the world, if necessary. because God told them that that was the case. Well, what? Yeah. So do I hope that people will wake up to the idea that this is insane and say no? Well, the problem is that there's a thing called evangelical Christianity in the United States America,

where they believe exactly the same thing. Right. Except they believe that all the Jews are going to die as well as the communists and the atheists. But come on, Roger. they love us. Who cares why they love us? Yeah. Who cares if their end game is, you know, eternal hellfire for us. In the meantime, it's very validating.

A friend is a friend, even if that friend wants you dead. That's what I've always said, you know. Okay, well, cool. I'm glad to hear your point of view. No, it is, you have to understand after 2,000 years. It just feels so good. It feels good to have a friend, even if he wants to send me straight to hell. So, so joking aside, much as I say,

know it would be nice to get through the next 10 minutes or how long I've got joking and doing nothing else. There is a serious side to this because, well, you know, because of the children and all the grown up, it's not just the children, obviously, but because this is insane and we know it is. But how do we, how do we, well, we keep doing what we're doing and that's all you can do. People so often and I often say to people, what can I do? And they say, keep doing what you're fucking doing? Yeah. And just be glad that you have a platform and that you can use it.

Yeah. And it doesn't, sorry, go on. No, I mean, I know that I've always been grateful for you in terms of, you know, talking about someone who keep doing what you're doing. You have not ever been cowed by the smears, by the lobby. they've tried multiple times, you know, to cancel your gigs. They've tried to get you, you know, kicked out of countries, essentially. I mean, I know that they were trying to get you kicked out of Germany.

No, something worse. Something way, way worse than any of that. Jonathan Greenblatt, I hope you're watching, Jonathan, invited me to lunch one day. Ugh, God, what he was going to eat you? I can only assume. No, you know what he was going to, he was going to convince me to turn coat, to change side. And that he was going to promise me that they would stop attacking me and trying to destroy

me in my career if two things. One, if I changed all my opinions, and two, if I gave the ADL credit for having persuaded me. When was this? When did Jonathan? Grieblatt, as outlandishly, cartoonishly evil and idiotic as the guy is, when would he have plausibly thought that he had a chance in hell of swaying you or any leverage to do so? I can tell you exactly when it was, because it was the summer before, when I was finishing the new Dark Side of the Moon, Dark Side of the Moon Redux record. And when BMG, who were going

to put it out Burtlesman music group to translate for anybody who doesn't know about anybody who hasn't got daft guitars on their wall like some of us yeah anyway

so yeah and there we get owned by Roger Waters yeah so some of them turned round and so Jonathan Greenblatt wrote to Bertelsman Music Group and said you have

have to cut all your ties with Roger Waters because we see that you're his publisher and that you're about to put a record out on your label for it. You can't do that and you have to cut off all ties with him or we're going to tell the world that you used to be the publishers for the Nazis in the 30s. Wow. So they went, oh, well, we're very sorry. We'll cut him off now. And they it. Wow. Wow. And a bit later, having achieved this, having achieved this, perhaps you'd like to have lunch one day, not to me, but to somebody that I know. It's a lovely career you got there. It'd be shame if something happened to it. Yeah. They're like the mafia. Isn't it lovely? I mean, isn't it amazing? It's crazy because it's, what was your response? Sorry, Matt, but what, how did you

respond? I can't remember, but I'm sure it, I'm sure the F-bom. It definitely includes lots and lots of F-bomb. It actually was mainly loud, happy laughter. Okay, what the fuck is wrong with these people? I'm happy to see that Jonathan Greenblatt's predecessor, who I knew well back in the day. I can imagine. Abe Foxman. Abe Foxman. Exactly. You beat me to his name. Abe Voxman is now coming out and sort of condemning the genocide, which is interesting. I've read something this morning. I don't want to misquote, Abraham.

You know what I'm like, how careful I am about biblical figures. And so... We are all the children of Abraham. That's right. Abraham Watson. Yeah. So there we are. But anyway, let's not...

Well, I wonder if that is something to do with the fact he was so prominently featured in in the film israelism and i was surprised that he allowed him to he was so candid and relaxed with them you're right and he basically said he wasn't he wasn't pounding the table and being like he's like yeah this is what we do we indoctrinate them and i want i just i wonder what effect that had on him there's a film i made years ago with sean and it's i think it's called swaddled i don't think we ever released it but it's got a great beginning it's of an old bloke typing right and uh it goes i remember my mother one day saying to me me. Of course, darling, if the Germans had won the war, excuse me, they'd have killed me

because I'm a communist. They said, but you were so young at the time, they'd probably have kept you alive and bought you up as a good little Nazi. And it goes on to say, you know, if you get a child young enough, you can teach them absolutely anything you want. And they haven't, then they're not equipped to reject anything. So it's very easy to brainwash. young children but I remember I said in the thing scared the fucking shit out of me just imagine because it could happen so easily imagine if when you're grown up like me and you were brought up by an atheistic liberal human rightsy kind of woman like my mother the thought that you could have been brought up by the enemy and have

believed that Hitler was right and you are so lucky to be living in the third right that's going to last a thousand years. Yeah, and the probability is you wouldn't have woken up out of it, although, of course, that's never a certainty. We have people like Miko Pellid, who comes from Israeli military royalty. I have lots of people born Israel, Jewish in my life, who have woken up out of it. I myself went to a Zionist summer camp. I had the privilege of having an anti-Zionist father, so I had a little inoculation.

But yes, I mean, you're talking about inculcation that goes very deep. Make no mistake, because my mother was as left wing as she was, many of my mother's closest friends with me growing up with Jewish people were of the Jewish faith. Not that we ever inquired into anyone's faith, but I do always remember, I've told this story before, but I like it. My mother often, not often, but sometimes would take, sorry. I'm just wondering whether to tell her she won't stop. It doesn't matter, let her bark.

Yeah, she would take us to political meetings, my brother and I, if the lodger was away or something off, there was nobody to babysit. And we went to a meeting of the British China Friendship Association one night in the Friends Meeting House in Cambridge, which is where I lived after the war with my mother. And when we left, I was probably six, and my brother was probably eight, when we left, We're going home. And she said, yeah, I've been watching films of the 90 of the Long March or afterwards when they were beginning to win a revolutionary war.

And she says, you know where we were tonight? No, Mom. She said, it's called the Friends Meeting House. And it belongs to the Quakers who are religious. As you know, I am an atheist. They're very religious. They're a Christian sect and they're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I want you to remember this.

about the Quakers. They're very good people. And I never forgot that. She said, it doesn't matter who your God is or what you believe or what. The important thing is that you're good people and that you do, that you behave properly and that you care, the Quakers care about their brother. Whether this still pertains or not, I don't know, but I suspect that it does. Because I tell you this, Jonathan Greenblatt if I had a friend who was a Quaker I would have no idea because I don't give her a fuck

what your religion is right yeah no that you can be a Buddhist you can be you can be you can believe in Confucianism or consumerism it makes no difference to me never mind the fact that many of the

Israeli war criminals that you so vociferously and rightly decry are complete atheists as well in fact they're they're heathens I mean they have they have done they don't have a religious or spiritual bone in their body. They just cleave to religion as a sort of post facto cynical rationale for what they do. I'm curious to know, when did you first become aware of this issue as an issue of moral urgency

and as something that it was going to require looking beneath the surface of Western consensus to understand the truth about? When did you, what was, you know, different people have, we spoke to Deborah Winger, the Academy nominated actress who spoke about in the 70s. I know, it sure is. Okay, but for those who don't, I'm not, of course you do. Of course you do. You know everybody.

But you're going to start telling me about Susan Sarendon. The red hair in America. Yeah, no, and she spoke about how, you know, she went to Israel in the 70s as an idealistic youngster and wrote back to her grandmother back home in Cleveland. Grandma, this is not what they told us it was. when was your moment of cluing in that there's something very off here it was it was way way after that strangely enough i've written about this recently um it was it was 2006 i'm ashamed to say so it's asked after the second intifada i tell you what happened prior to that

can you just let us know what was your view of it before that and then how did that change prior to that i didn't have a view about it i was busy collecting guitars and hanging in the modern the wall behind my head. Now, I wasn't. I never, ever collected a guitar. I have never sunk to those steps. What was it? Yeah, get his ass. Yes. So, no, I was busy, you know, trying to figure out how to win the fucking football

pools. And the only way I could, I knew I wasn't going to do that because I was good at math or maths or mathematics. So I knew the chances of me winning the lottery were too slim to put any set any store by i'd have to figure out some other way of buying a sports car so i could pull those foreign girls you know yeah learning english at the school down the road from where i live and because that that was the path to it that's like you know you needed a few quid to be an undergraduate at cambridge where i was growing up sure so so blah blah blah blah. And at some point, I came to the conclusion. I wasn't going to win the football pool. So rock and roll seemed like the only possible route that I could think of towards

making a few quid. And obviously it was a stupid adolescent fantasy that somehow came true. Yeah, I was going to say, you know, talking about gambling. It worked out fine. Yeah, in the end. But that meant that I was, through my teen and teen well no I was political in my teens but I but not sort of somehow not because Claudette Kennedy who had her Auschwitz number on her wrist was a close family friend and blah blah and I couldn't quite work out why she wouldn't let her kids go in the canoe with me it was because she'd been in fucking Auschwitz for um yeah not umpteen years but a number of why was she in Auschwitz for a number of years because she was a doctor

so she was spared because she was helping Mengele with his experiments but after the war oh my god well she married mr kennedy who then died i think but talk about worried about something happening to her kids and it wasn't till i was older that i thought well of course she was you never get you never recover from that anyway what am i saying is so in spite of all that i never thought of I was five in 1948 so did I think oh my God

the map was up no I didn't right as I wrote recently that back in 1948 and in the 50s and all through the 50s

the story that was sold us and which I bought was oh there are these sort of new socialist experiment going on somewhere in Palestine and it's sort of

kind of people who've come in and that some of them may be related to the victims of the Holocaust in the war or whatever. But what they all live together, they're like, they're communists, really. They live in these socialist enclaves, and they all work together and look after one another in these places called gibbutzies, and it's all very left-wing and socialist. And it's a wonderful new revolutioner, you know, and hard work, but good luck to them.

I sort of bought that vision, and I never thought about it, really. Yeah, well, the name of this podcast is bad Hasbara. We call that, that's good Hasbara. That was the era when there was actually a decent cover story that succeeded in covering up a lot. Yeah, I mean, people of your generation, you know, Roger, including my parents, like, it is still, to this day, something they hold on to, this idea of Israel as like actually kind of left wing. You know, it's pro-gay, it's that, you know, there are these Kibbutzim where people are all, you know, around campfires, multicultural and playing guitars and, you know, not mentioning the, you know, armed guards, the IDF security forces that guard them. And the Palestinian villages that lie in rubble under that lie in rubble, yes. That brings me back to my story. Thank you, Daniel, for steering us.

We always bring you back, Roger. So I spent all those years not learning to play the guitar, but dreaming the dream. And eventually somehow started a rock band in like the middle 60s or whatever. But then I just worked and worked and worked and worked and worked and worked and worked. And I'd started the band with two other guys from Cambridge, Sid Barrett and a guy called Rado Close, who were both from the school that I'd been to. I called Rado yesterday, okay? He's a year younger than me, so he's 80 now.

And he answered his fucking phone. Well, actually, his wife wasn't his phone. I was sitting by the river in Black East, eat in chips. And thinking about this and that, I suppose, and talking. Matt, that means fries. Yeah, if he was eating chips, he'd be eating crisps. Oh, okay. Yeah, French fries, English fries.

English fries. Anyway, so I said to. Bob, because he was Bob in those days, I said, you came and lived in the flat that I was in Highgate when you came up to London to go to the Polly, which he did a year after I started at the Polly. And he said, yeah, that's right. I said, why? I don't remember you from school, do I? How did we mean? What the, and he said, I'm glad you asked me that. I'm not surprised he said, actually, I'm a bit surprised you. I said, well, come on. How would I know? You're a year below me. I don't speak to kids

from the year below. How did we meet? How did I know you played the fucking guitar? And he went, second 11 cricket. What? We were both in the second 11 of the school cricket teams, two teams.

He said, you were the wicket keeper and I interrupted him and said and you were the first slip. So next door to what you would call the catcher, but we called the wicket keeper, you have two slipfielders who stand next to you or three or have a man

to catch anything that hits the edge of the back and the second 11 is like the B team yeah so we were in the B team at cricket and he was that so inevitably we talk to one another on the cricket pitch all the time yeah so there was a bit more to that story and then he said and then

we had a long conversation on a long bus ride I said what long bus ride you used to go on a bus every day I remember you lived out in the country in Cottersham or somewhere and he said, no, no, not that bus. I said, well, what bus was I ever on with you? He said, well, it left Cambridge.

And when I got on, I saw you already sitting on it and I came and sat next to you. Where the hell was it going? It was going to the atomic energy research establishment in Aldermaston. Fuck me. The first, no, the second Aldermaster, and March, 1961.

So Roder Close and I both marched from Alderman to Fowler Square, three days it took them, with my first girlfriend who was on that march as well, and a bunch of other people. And anti-nuclear protest in 1961. Wow. You're early on every cause. I was actually the chairman of the youth C&D movement in Cambridge. and I was chairman of the Cambridge Young Socialists when I was 15 years old.

Wow. So my mother's left-wing politics had seen through. Don't forget, she would have been card-carrying Communist Party member until 56 when all the Communist Party members of good heart left in protest to the fact that the British CP refused to condemn the Russian invasion of Hungary in 19th. Which was the same year my dad had to flee Budapest. Oh, that's right. That's family left in the Hungarian Revolution.

He woke up to the sound of Russian tanks one morning and a few days later. They were trudging through the mud to the border in the middle of the night. There you go. I think I've heard your father speak about that, but I'd forgotten that it was in 56. Yeah. Well, anyway, there we are. That's the... So that primed you.

It primed you to be aware of causes and justice and being willing to stick your neck out. So then we fast forward to 2006, you say, when something should be out of your... Or was, yeah, the, was, and then also the two. We go past 82 and 86 and all those Marines dying in Lebanon or all that. Well, that was 2003, I believe. But anyway, so 2006, I'm plying my evil trade all over the world, trying to scrape together a lottery win.

And when, well, no, we'd already won the lottery. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Way before that. A few times. Outside of the moon and then the wall and all that. But I'm still working like crazy. And I'm in the middle of a European tour in 2006. And there's a bit of a gap between Athens and Istanbul, like three days or something like that.

So I get a call from the agent one day. And it goes, you've got a gap between Athens and Istanbul. You know, can we put in another gig? or do you want to sit on the beach and drink cheap white wine? Excuse me. So I said, yeah, let's put another gig in. Yeah, we've got one.

It's called Heikun Park, it's in Tel Aviv. And I just went, what is it? It's a stadium. Oh, cool, bye. And I never thought any more about it. Well, I did because even then I had a laptop. And I start to get emails because they put it on sale and it sold out immediately. I don't know how many people it holds.

Yeah. And let's just pause here. Just having grown up around Israelis and around North American lefty, hippie Zionists, yes. Boy, oh boy, do Israelis love Pink Floyd. Yes. Or did they, at least when I was growing up. There was something about the trippy, philosophical, political.

political, righteous, and melodic and beautiful. I mean, it's really, really, really, really vibed there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've forgotten the promoter's name. Schultz.

I'll remember his name in a minute. Anyway. And it sold out. So it hit the news papers and stuff. I started to get emails. They came from sort of Algeria. in Morocco to start with and then Bobavon and then I suddenly had a hundred emails all going what are you thinking and then I got an important email which was from

Omar Barcuti oh wow because they'd started the BDS movement the year before yeah and he'd already established that the BDS movement represented the whole of Palestinian civil Sephardi so it had a very big voice and So I called him up, you know, and we had long conversations over the telephone. And he told me that Hyken Park was built on Earth. It's five different villages are underneath that fucking thing. Yeah. Including all their graves, whatever.

Jesus, you didn't know that. I might have seen Michael Jackson there in 1993. Wow. Yeah, you probably did. So anyway, he, so I went. all right, you've persuaded this whole program. I will cancel that show and he went, thank you. But I said, I'm not totally convinced that there's only one way, which is BDS to the end of the thing.

And I did some research, and I discovered Wahat Asalam, also known as Nevis Shalom, the Oasis of Peace, about halfway between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. an ecumenical agricultural community, all the children going to the same school. So you've got Druze, Muslims, and atheists, and Christians. Our former guest, Noam Schuster Eliassi grew up there and spoke about it. And she talked about how she's an anti-Zionist, Israeli, of Persian descent as well. And she's a comedian. She says her phone often auto-corrected, Neves Shalom, to Never Shalom.

never shallone which which seems much more accurate to her right absolutely so anyway that happened and and to cut long story short i moved the gig to there and it was a huge success and it you know it was when we were on very late because there were huge traffic jams we had about 60,000 people in the open there did this gig at the end of which um they were all you know I think it was when I was doing dark side of the moon, dark side of the moon, too. Right. And then I went, I can't let this opportunity go. I said, quiet, quiet.

So they were quiet and down. Or they didn't quiet and down, really. They were still, ah. And I said words to this effect. This is the generation of young Israelis who must communicate with and make peace with your neighbors and support the idea of a Palestinian state and blah, blah, blah. And they went from ha ha ha to

wow wow absolute silence and if you could have written a balloon over their head you know to see what they were going what the fuck is he talking about what

we were just trying to have fun there's never going to be a state or there's never going to be we're not going to give them a fucking square inch of anything Yeah. Don't you understand with the chosen people? Right. They're only here to, you know, clean the ditches.

Right. And even that is a bit of a stretch. So, I mean, it was like, I remember coming up backstage. The thing from the sort of ecstasy of the standing ovation to the complete, it happened, I went back the next year and I traveled all over the West Bank. of the West Bank. That's the only time I've ever been. I didn't get to Gaza, but I went a bit south, you know, Bethlehem and Brother, and I went all the way up to Janine and all the way around the Jordan Valley and blah, and all of that. And it was a huge eye-opener. I was

looked after by a woman who worked for, I think, Unra, but it might have been Uncher, or whatever the other one is, called Allegra Pacheo, was her name. Great woman, lovely, lovely woman. I remember a seminal moment we're driving north on a beautiful new, brand new sort of black tarmac road and I go nice roads at least

you know and she goes yeah you're not allowed on them unless you're a Jew and I said well I'm not a Jew she's no if you're local I mean yeah you need an Israeli you need to be Jewish to be allowed to go the local people in the West they can't go on this road

They have to go on. Yeah, the license. Yeah, the license. And I went, I don't believe you. And she said, well, you believe what you like. I'm telling you this. Oh, look, there's another outpost. I said, well, what do you mean?

She said, well, they build illegal outposts, and then they connect them to something that's already a settlement that used to be in a legal outpost. So it's all illegal, and they know it's illegal, but they're doing it anyway, and they're encouraged by the government. So I got a pretty solid education. Yeah, you saw apartheid for yourself. And what I love about that story is the stepwise nature of your education and that it's possible to get a, you know, a reasonable call from Omar Bagruti and have him persuade you to cancel a sold-out gig in, you know, the sort of European capital. the Middle East, right? Right. Tel Aviv.

Yeah. At great expense to you and with great backlash, I'm sure. You made that concession. You found a compromise. You went to, you go to the, you know, the coexistence capital of Israel, Nevis Shalom. You do the thing. You have this. Wahatah Salam.

Wahatah Salah, right? Yeah. You, you have this sort of very sobering, moment. Jarring moment. And then a year later. it takes before the actual reality of what apartheid is and that and your incredulity at the separate roads and the license plates and incredibly relatable because i think that's most people

who you know i've talked to when it comes to the stuff is this i don't believe you type of feeling this incredulity where they can't they they just can't imagine that apartheid still exists i always say to them check this out you go through the holland tunnel you were going to Philadelphia and you arrive at the New Jersey Turnpike and you go to drive to Philadelphia and they go, can I see your whatever? And you go, well, are you a Christian? And you go, no. And they go, well, you can't go on the road then. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. You are kidding me. No, we're not. That's the law. Now give me all your wooder. Yeah.

That's how they pronounce it. So, I mean, I have to say, sorry, I need to clear this up. That was a Philadelphia. Philadelphia, they say water, water, yeah. So they'd steal your water. We're making fun of their accent. We're just trying to get little one-liners in. This podcast is very 80-d-old.

That's brotherly love, isn't it? That's right. You love your brothers in Philadelphia. Absolutely. Just as much as they loved those people in that street when they dropped all those barrel bombs on them with those helicopters in 1970. Yeah, well, they're not the cops of the move or otherly love.

Yeah, anyway. But, yeah, so that's the story. Well, it's amazing to me. I think your story there is an example of someone who can humble themselves in the face of criticism about something and then educate themselves and learn, you know, why maybe there's a BDS movement, you know, as opposed to, a lot of other artists who are out there who just the mere fact of being asked to consider joining BDS and not performing in Israel turns them more Zionist it turns them into a

Zionist and you know I'm I'm sure you're asked this all the time but both Daniel and I have talked about this for the last you know years since we've been doing this podcast, the amount of Tom York, like, refusal to engage in any meaningful way with this during a genocide has been one of, I think, one of the most disappointing and dark moments in terms of our, I don't know, I mean, I grew up listening to Radiohead, and I can't pretend that, you know, it wasn't affecting me. And I, I just watched an interview in which you talk about how he was immediately hostile to you reaching out, trying to get him to consider not doing it. Yeah. The email exchange with Tom York is now available on my substack

if anybody wants to read it. And it's two or three emails. And I'll tell you why it is, because I had these email exchanges with him where he made no sense at all. He tried to be clever. Anyway, and he wasn't, obviously. But then he went and did a long interview with Rolling Stone, where he called me a coward and said that BDS was shameful. And that Brian Eno and our attachment to BDS was shameful and cowardly. and how much he believed in the power of music

and how it should be above politics and all that fucking nonsense. This is like these American senators demanding that Tulsi Gabbard say publicly that Edward Snowden is a coward. Right. Or a traitor. Or a traitor is what she's demanding.

Yeah, but cowardice was also mentioned. It's just so funny when people throw around the word cowardice. Yeah. When they are acting cowardly? Yeah. In the face of people who have actually sacrificed something with states. Yes. I know I shouldn't be sharing kind of intimate details for this.

But guess what Tom York's email addresses? I'm not paranoid, android. Yeah. What is it? Now get ready. Pink Floyd fan 69. Very good guess, but that is not correct. Are you sitting?

We are sitting. Always sitting. That's a terrible joke. Yeah, but that's what we do here. We're allowed to laugh at it because this is bad jokes. Hasbro. It's bad Hasbara. Exactly.

We get away with a lot here. And unfortunately, he's a purveyor of it. You know, I think it's one thing to be completely silent during a genocide, which is shameful enough as it is, but to also just be so openly hostile towards anyone who is trying to get you to like, please understand that this is, that your pro-Zionist or your pro-Israel views here are completely inconsistent with literally your entire vibe. Yeah, but what you have to understand about Tom, obviously, is that he was sitting there happily on a pedestal because there are a huge number of fans of radiohead who think or thought, and I'm not saying they're wrong, but the music and the writing and that creep is cutting edge

and it's blah, blah, blah, and this and that, and that he somehow was part of the resistance against Big Brother and the man. So being faced with this, And you know what his what he said to me at one point? Not that we ever had a conversation. He said, imagine how difficult this is for Johnny. Johnny fucking Greenwood, because he's married to an Israeli woman and lives in Tel Aviv.

Well, hang on. Listen, you know, you've shouldered arms. You're committing genocide. It should be fucking hard for you. Yeah. Just as hard as all the other genociders. There's no way around it. Either you believe in love and truth

or you believe in lies and hatred. You, along with Big Brother, who in this case are the United States and Israeli governments, believe in neither truth nor love. They believe in anything at all costs. They believe in power and wealth. And that's all they believe in. so you've you've made your fucking bed lie in it yeah yeah and and i also think it's like

it's a cowardly move to be like well think about think about johnny greenwood who's married to an israeli and it's just like well okay but you also are your own person and also there are plenty of is it's like pretending that every israeli uh is you know thinks the exact same thing it's like there are Israelis who, you know, who speak out against genocide and apartheid. Gideon Levy, who's a friend of mine, to name but one. And as you named before, Mika Paled, okay, and his sister, all right? Nurit. Nurit Palet, who's a close friend of mine.

Yeah. And blah, blah, blah, and blah, and blah, and blah, and blah, and blah, yes, there are tiny minority. But there's a huge number of them. It's a grand flattening of all Jewish opinion when it comes to Israel. when every Jewish person does have their own opinion about it, this idea that every Jew is a Zionist is an inherently anti-Semitic view, which is pushed by Israel all the time. This is what they constantly do.

You attack Israel, then you claim, well, every Jew loves Israel, so you just hate every Jew. Jonathan Greenblatt is an arch anti-Semite. Yes, yes. Oh, he's one of the worst anti-Semites that there's ever been in the whole history. He just allowed Elon Musk to Sig Heil during the inauguration. He said, look, we're all going through a hard time right now. Let's keep our, let's keep ourselves from jumping to conclusions.

Oh, wait, look, a CAFIA in an American Airlines ad. Yeah. Tear it down. But, I mean, you know, in general, we're talking about an ideology that is inherently European in terms of the, you know, creation of modern Zionism of Zionism is all just just European stock And as Ilan Pape and

Rashid Khalidi have talked about a lot or I think it was maybe it was more Ilan than Rashid but but it was originally a European Christian idea even before the Jews cottoned on to it as one possible solution to our problems fitting in and it was only a tiny minority of Jews at the time in it you know

all this stuff Roger our listeners do too but yeah you're right so the point is Johnny Greenwood needs to uh you know nut up and so does uh tom but i feel like they're dug in and uh you see like people who are dug into being pro israel as like being more and more isolated in terms of like you know their art their music like everything about it is tainted for me now um are there any others who have go ahead roger well well no all i'm going to say it is that we the people

all over the world certainly all over the united states where i live most of the time are solid behind the idea that there must be a Palestinian state and that the and that the Israelis have to be brought to account to settle the enormous debt now that they owe because they are culpable in the execution of this genocide but also that the people of the United States are complicit because they've been supporting it even though they don't want to but But when you do the poll and find that over 50%, I think, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, Daniel, but that are not in favor of going on sending $2,000 bombs to Israel to drop on the defenseless Palestinians, well then why are you letting them be in power?

And why have you now elected a new president who's absolutely in favor of it, thinks they should just do it quicker and get it over with, so he can build a fucking golf course. yeah yeah it is it's it's uh it's all incredibly uh depressing well it is incredibly depressing you were asking me earlier or did i find any hope in anything anywhere yeah let me let me tell you another story because this is really important i had a friend who died i don't know 10 years of course and he was a he was Spanish origin, but he'd lived in France all his life. And he was a writer of occasionally novels, but mainly lyric writer.

His name was Etienne Roder Gilles, and he was French. And he wrote a lot of stuff, Jeanie Allende and Julian Breck, and so a lot of French artists. And he wrote a libretto about the French Revolution, which I made a score for back in the late 80s for the bicentennial of the revolution. of 1779, so it was 1979. It was don't work. Anyway, he came through New York one day. Not long before he died, and we were going to go and record Seira. My opera is called Seira.

And so we were staying in my house just off 3rd Avenue, were walking across town early in the morning. He was an alcoholic. Etienne and a great smoker of Benson and Hedges's cigarette. So he said we stopped for a cup of coffee and I went yeah I know what I know

you're not having a cup of fucking coffee but yeah let's stop. So we found a little table so it was very kind of a la Paris and we sat down I had an espresso he had a large famous grouse you know boom and then he had another and he let his

Benzman Hedges cigarette and he's we're sitting And I must have said something faintly philosophical to him, even though it was up by 9 in the morning or whatever it was. And he looked at me and he thought about it. And he went, and then he decided that he was going to speak to me. I've no idea what I asked him. And he said this.

And I know he did because I wrote it down. And I put it in my back pocket. And it's not there this morning, but it's in the safe because I kept it for it. And he said, I was here. I was here. He looked me right in the eyes. He said, I felt something.

Like they do. You know what they're like the French. They're just like that. Though I say it myself, this is a good impersonation of what the fucking French like. You know, they're like that. He said, I was here, I felt something.

And then he said, again, and he said, and perhaps I was not alone. And I nearly fell off my fucking chair on 54th Street in that little ray of sunshine. I can still feel it now. And I went, oh, my God. that he's just put his finger right on something that is so important and that gives me hope perhaps to the possibility that there was meaning and that there was a shared experience

before we continue we need to take a quick break so please stick around you we'll be right back and we're back this bad has barra the world's most moral podcast we are here with Roger Waters and Sweet Georgia Brown, who is a beautiful, what kind of dog's at? She's a half chihuahua. Her mother was a six-pound chihuahua in Wharton, Texas, who made the mistake of going out in the street one day and met the local stray pit bull. So she's half chihuahua and half staffy.

That's actually a great combination. It is. She's a beautiful, beautiful dog. No barking. understand i didn't know that a chihuahua and a pit bull could um that's wow that i'm just i'm just don't go there i'm i'm i can't you went there and now i can't get out of my head i've got it out of my head and it's going to stay out all right let's keep it out dog yeah um so we were talking about uh people you know in the music industry and just industry in general uh entertainment

industry who either refuse to heed the, I don't know, counsel of people in the BDS movement and those who actively fight against it. What has been your experience in terms of talking about this with people in the industry who maybe have changed their minds on this? Or have you, have you, I don't know, brought anyone into the industry? this at all, like, are there musicians who have reached out to you to ask you questions or anything like that? No, this is a path of inquiry that I'm not going to go down.

There are friends I've got in the music industry. He say to me, I admire you, I'm all what you've done. I can't do it. You are bigger than I am. My career will be over in a hobby. So they do listen to the voice of the lobby, which says, if you go down this road, we're going to cut your fucking balls off. So enjoy the rest of your life, lying, bleeding in the gutter with no balls. And some people just go, I, you do understand that they're not kidding.

No, I know. They mean it. They have no empathy. no heart, no, they have nothing except hatred and and a feeling of supremacy. They all feel superior to everybody who's not them. And this is what we have to fight in the future. And it's not just Jewish supremacists or Christian supremacists

or Hindu supremacists or any of those supremacists, religious supremacists. It's all of them. who attaches to an ancient writ, to an ancient script and says, oh, this means that I'm supremely powerful and omnipotent. I can kill people if I want and steal their olive trees. Or a futuristic writ. Like, you know, you could have the techno feudalists like Elon Musk's, who have a kind of supremacy, not because of any ancient tradition, but because they are the wizards of the, you know, the 23rd century. They're writing the, they're writing the Mars Code, right? Now, you know, they claim for themselves the right to dominate resource and people.

You met Elon Musk? I met him at a party in St. Bartz. I'm sorry to have to admit that I once went to St. Bartz, but I did, okay, to visit a friend who was a film producer. And he'd had a push party. He was a bit like that, mentioning no names, no names, no pectoral. And he said, I'll sort of, I'll tell you who was a film producer. American and Roger, you have to meet this guy. He's the most amazing guy. And he introduced me to Elon Musk and I talked to him, or rather I listened to him for about 10 minutes. And I thought,

this guy's a complete fucking moron. And he is. He's a complete idiot. And his narcissism, he oozes from every fucking awful pore of his disgusting body. And you realize that he's a complete lunatic. So when I read the history of him getting involved in companies and stealing the ideas of the people who act like Tesla, he had fuck all to do with Tesla or the engineering or anything to do with it. It was other blocs. He just stole it from them.

Yeah. So he's a good little creepy thief. But, and you only have to watch the inauguration, which I didn't, but I saw the, you know, and I'm not talking about the Nazi salute, frankly, that's the least. it's his bubbling insane narcissism that's the scary thing yeah and that he thinks we don't see through his his relationship with trump and i mean how they've what they've done is incredible that they've all he and bezos and is in bezos and is in basos his wife with tits and everything and and and that idiot Zuckerberg who's also a complete

dodo who got lucky let's not forget this guy got all of that by going well let's grade her and say she's a four and she's sick oh look there's one with tits and that's one where's one with skinny legs

oh she's a net that's it that's his whole fucking stick that somehow we fell for it guys and now they become very very powerful politically so speaking of the feeling of having fallen for it, do you have any sympathy for anyone who has a sense of buyer's remorse?

Like, we needed to get rid of these genocidal Democrats who signed off on and funded this genocide, not just expediently, but ideologically. They were 100% committed to it, Biden. And now we've got the administration we've got. Some people are trying to use that to guilt people and say, oh, this is what you wanted. Right. Well, that's ludicrous, obviously, because I was born in 1940. So I've been sort of watching.

It's not for nothing that I wrote an album once called The Final Cut, which was a requiem for the post-war dream. We can all remember that 1948 wasn't just the Nakhba. It was also the signing of the Declaration of Universal Human Rights, enshrined in law by the fledgling, except it never was, because there is no international law, because the United States would never sign up to it. Right. That's why it doesn't sort of exist. Because they've always been John Wayne.

They've always been living on the frontier. Once we've killed all the Indians, everything will be all right. They live in that mentality. And now, the one thing that the genocide in the Levant has shown us, that the state of Israel has shown us, is who they are. The mask is now all. They have now completely admitted. that they have no empathy, that they don't give a fig for democracy or freedom or that all men are created equal and have certain inalienable rights, or any of it, they believe in power and wealth and nothing else.

So it's like when I have the conversation about Palestine, whether it's with other musicians, When I talked to Dionne Warwick about it, which I only did by a letter because she accused me of being a terrorist. Well, that's what friends are for. I did say to Dion, hey, Dion, I've looked you up. You were born in 1940. So in 1948, when they signed the Dexterity, you were eight. So, 1948.

That's a key fact. So there you are, living in your house in Chicago. I don't know what side, whether you're north, southeast. It doesn't matter. You were living with your mom and dad and your siblings in a house. There's a knock on the door. You go to the door. There's a bloke there in the uniform.

And he says, go and tell your family, you've got to get out. You have to walk to Canada. What? Dad, Dad! And your father comes down the stairs. And the guy says, you've got to go and walk to Canada now. We're throwing you out. And your father goes, so you're not.

my wife we've had this however bang your father's lying dead on the floor in front of you and then the kids come back bang they shoot one of the kids and your mother and the rest of the kids and you you pick up whatever you can and you start walking to canada how would you feel deion that is what happened to the palestinians in 1948 and has been happening in fits and starts but mainly starts ever since how would you feel how much empathy

Do you have, Dion? Can you imagine being Palestinian? I can. I imagine it every fucking day. I imagine it with every breath that I take. When I wake up in the morning, the first thing that I do is take some deep breaths and try not to spend the rest of the day weeping and try and think if there's anything that I can do to express my empathy. for my brothers and sisters, and other places where my brothers and sisters are being murdered in the world by others. It's not just Israel, but Palestine is the most obvious and concrete and heartless and vicious, disgusting genocide going on at the moment. And directly funded by our resistance. So that's what we do. So is Etienne right? Perhaps we are not alone. Well, for them to not be alone, Dion, you have to find empathy in your heart.

And it has to be for people who need your support and your empathy. And nothing else matters. That's all them. Because it is your capacity to empathize with others that paves the path to the end of the. the rainbow for you. That's where love and truth live. And that is the only thing that matters in our lives.

So there. Of course, she took no funny notice and went off to sing for her supper in Tel Aviv anyway. But I'm right. Yeah, you are right. And so that's, so I can't get involved in a, oh, I'm not making lists. Right, right, of course. Yeah. Of musicians.

I can't do it. I mean, it does, you know, the fact that there are people who want to say something but feel, you know, intimidated out of it is always, you know, frustrating. But I do think that's what makes you so special, or at least that's what makes you someone who I think time will, you know, obviously vindicate. because I think more and more people, I mean, I have not seen such an outpouring of youth who are finally, you know, learning about all this, you know, through TikTok or through whatever and realizing how many people have been, you know, smeared as anti-Semites for standing up for Palestinian human rights. And you're one of the big targets. Matt, that's so cool what you're saying because you're bringing up all my young brothers and sisters

and the movements in the universities all over the United States but all over the world now who are faced with the new fascist regimes it's not just Trump there it's Kirstama in the UK it's you know Le Pen and Macron in France it's blah blah it's the new lot that Elon Musk is now pouring money into Germany to try and get the Nazi party reinstalled as ruling party in so it's so it's so it's so those young people who are now going up to university for the first time or they're coming under enormous pressure because these motherfuckers will try and destroy them and destroy any chance that they had of getting a career and doing and that may and they may succeed in some cases

but not in all because we are not alone yes and and and we are empathy for others is it's the most precious thing in any of our life but my I take my hat off to those kids who protested and I imagine the surprise that must have happened okay in December and January and February or whenever after October the 7th 2023 or what 2023 yeah when they suddenly discovered that they were being stamped to death with people in jackboots at the behest of the fucking government of the United States of America it's incredible if you think about it and yet

has there been a general uprising has there been a general strike has there been a revolution in the United States have they not torn this castle no they haven't and that's partly because they believed America yeah you see them at sports

events you know yeah and And it's disgusting, the nationalism is the most dangerous thing. I was really worried to see something by Gilbert Doctor of that I read this morning, where actually he was sort of kind of hailing, I think he was, I'll have to ask him, not that I've ever spoken to him, but it needs clearing up that there's some notion that maybe Trump's nationalism is a good thing. It's the only thing I disagree with Mearsheimer about, with his real politic,

is the idea that the confrontation between China and the United States is inevitable but also desirable in some way, that that's the only way that we can maintain a defense against the end of law, for instance. Well, hang on, what about reforming the fucking United Nations, getting rid of the veto power and the Security Council, allowing resolutions in the General Assembly to become universal law. Why can't we do that? Oh, because one of the bullies in the yard won't allow it,

the United States of America. And Meersheimer seems to think, I mean, don't get me wrong. I love him, love Steve Walt, love the book, the Israeli love, love blah, blah, blah. But to believe that ultimately, confrontation, not cooperation is the only way forward for the human. race sticks in my fucking gully. Yeah. I guess one could make the case that just

like Israeli apartheid is too far gone to be reasoned with. It's going to need to be confronted head on and dismantled from the inside as it were. It's going to have to implode or explode because it just can't actually be reasoned with. The American Empire is past that point and multipolar reality

is going to just impose itself on it. All I know is my home country, Canada, a very meek, nerdy little sidekick to the playground bully. They're booing the American National Anthem at goddamn hockey games these days. Yeah. All the Canadian hockey arenas, whenever the Star-Spangled Banner is sung, is now being booed because of these tariffs, you know. I don't know what the result's going to be, and I don't know who's right

in terms of what the consequences are and what's worth it. But, you know, I love the idea of cooperation and reform, but my God, this empire does not seem very reformable i listened to the left wing canadian don't know what his name is but he was wearing a turban and has a long beard and jag meet sing yeah what a good what a measured talk he gave that i watched on the television i know he's only got like 10% of the vote or something but that could grow easily and that that may be the answer that that there will the left wing may the working class might organize itself and go, no, we believe in love and truth and a decent wage.

The idea that in the United States, you know, the minimum wage is $7.75 an hour. Someone should try creating a left-wing populist party here. Well, just have a chance. Do you say you mean in the USA? Yeah. Yeah. Wouldn't that be great? If only, you know, my friend David North, the, you know, socialist website or whatever

is, if they could get themselves together and stop talking in kind of trotskyes, which is what they talk in a weird language about the fourth international. Fuck off. Yeah. Talk to people in real language. Right. Yeah. Stop being nerd.

Like your guy. Like your Turbany guy in Canada. He was just speaking very, and he was absolutely solid. He said, no, we are going to represent the needs of the working people. Well, of course, your country had, you know, Jeremy Corby. He was doing that all too effectively. Yeah, that's why lobby you're talking about was deployed with extreme prejudice. Just smear him as an anti-Semi.

Yes, it was. And it worked. And ASA wins, Stanley's written a book about it. Thank goodness that, yeah, Aza did. Yeah, and it's a very good book, too. But thank goodness, Jeremy is back in Parliament. and he's getting up on his hind legs occasionally and telling them what it's worth.

But yes, he should have been the Prime Minister of England in 2019 and he was brought down by the ruling class and the Israeli lobby, who worked together to destroy him. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. I mean... We're fighting back.

Yeah, and I do see, you know, the last 16 months as making it... I mean, obviously you've seen the... Israel lobbies still doing what it does in terms of these, you know, mass intimidation campaigns and mass smear campaigns. But more and more you see people, you know, especially young people, especially in independent media, people aren't buying into this automatic smear of someone. Oh, if, you know, if the ruling class or the, you know, institutional Jewish community says this person is an anti-Semite, I think more and more people pause and they go like, okay, but are they an anti-Semite or do they wear a kofia?

You know, now people are seeing our, you know, the ADL, you know, sidling up to Elon Musk who is trying to get the Nazis back and doing sick hiles and stuff. And they're seeing that they don't care about that stuff. They only care, you know, if someone is going to be pro-Palestine. So my hope would be that in the future, they couldn't do to, you know, Jeremy Corbyn what they, you know, did to him back in 2019. This is just me trying to be optimistic. Well, good for you, brother. I'm happy to see up.

No, I'm serious. Oh, yeah, okay. I'm so serious, you know, hope. Yeah. Hope. We need hope. That my story about Etienne Roger Schier, I first told that story. story to a meeting of about 2,000 Canadians in Vancouver in 2017, I think.

They all came into a church and they listened to me in conversation with a lovely lady from independent Jewish voices and a Muslim lady. And I can't remember, I'm so, I can't, shame to say, I don't remember either of their names. But at the end, they together asked me, do you see hope? I told them that story, we are not alone. And it's the sense of community in that church in Vancouver that night, and I felt it in other places all over the world, is so powerful. Yeah.

You know. And so... And what this podcast is not your go-to, is not anyone's go-to place for the latest, deepest insight or analysis or even seriousness, but what people get from it is a sense. of not being alone and that seems to be quite medicinal that you know that feeling of am i the only one seeing this no you're not yeah and you're not crazy and i think well good yeah well i think we're more not alone than ever and uh you know so it it's the thing that keeps me going and fills me with optimism and also uh people like you uh roger do fill me with optimism because i think

most people would lie in their gutter with their balls cut off, as you described. That is, I think, most people in the entertainment industry in general are happy to lie in a gutter with their balls cut off if it means they get to keep working. And you've been able to work despite all of the intimidation and the threats and the smearing. And, you know, I think that is, No one wants to be a political martyr, you know, for a cause because, you know, people are careerists. People, most people are just like, they only care about what they got. They only care about their own.

And you see that so much. It's rampant. It's almost the culture of entertainers or musicians or comedians and whatnot. And for you to break that mold, especially the fact that your music is good. like that is that's the best part is uh you know i don't uh i don't give a shit about you know throwing away my radio head records because i can listen to uh pink floyd and roger waters records so it all works out yeah yeah you fucked up yeah you fucked up tom you're you're out deleting you off of all the you know if i had spotify i delete you off of spotify

well do you think we persuaded tom I doubt. I kind of doubt that. Maybe that's a good petty note to end on. I think it is too. Not Tom Petty. Well done. Oh, he's a man after our own heart. Wow.

Yes. If we can get our guests to punt it up, then we feel like we've succeeded. Roger Waters, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. It's been a pleasure. I will definitely come back. Oh, good. It's amazing. Cheers.

Cheers. Thank you. Fuck a more. Yeah. Fuck them all. Fuck them all. Yeah. Cheers to everyone out there.

Cheers to you, Roger. Thanks so much for listening, everyone. Patreon.com slash bad as barra. Email us, bad as barra at gmail.com. And until next time, from the river to the sea. If you don't have your Palestine will be free, you can't have any Jewish security. How can you have any Jewish security if you won't eat your Palestine will be free? free. I should have done

in the Scottish accent. If you don't teach you on it. It was convoluted. It was great. It was convoluted. It was convoluted. Yeah. Jumping jacks was us. Push-ups was us. Godmaga us.

All karate us. Taking Molly us. Michael Jackson us. Yamaha Keyboards. Us. Charger binks on us. Andor was us. Keith Ledger Joker us.

Endless Red Sucks us. Happy meals was us McDonald's was us Being happy us Bequam yoga us Eating food us Breeding air us Drinking water us

We invented all that shit