Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - Bad Hasbara 9: Scar Tours, with Noy Katsman

Episode Date: January 24, 2024

Matt Lieb and sometimes co-host Daniel Maté welcome student and Israeli activist Noy Katsman to the show to talk about the death of their brother Hayim Katsman during the October 7th attack and the Israeli government's exploitation of Jewish pain.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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All of garden us White foster us Zabra Hamas Hasbaras us and welcome to Bad Hasbara, the world's most moral podcast. My name is Matt Lieb. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast that covers everything propaganda, specifically in Israel. Like I said, my name is Matt Lieb, and joining me today, first and foremost, my sometimes co-host and my new best friend and my new brother, ladies and gentlemen, Daniel Matte is here. There he is. What's up, buddy? What's up, Matt? That's wild to be introduced as your sometimes co-host. This is a new development. I'm very excited about. Yes, yes. You know, I, you know, I texted you. I did a thing where I, you know, it was very

asking someone to prom. I was just like, so I mean, you know, I don't know if you want to like sometimes like whenever you're available obviously like if you have another like guy friend that you want to like podcast with i get it that's fine like i understand like i don't i'm not even tripping i mean my friends say you're not in my league but you know i just figure you know i'm just trying to shoot my shot you know like hey you know you miss 100% of the shots that you don't shoot or something maybe you're into losers and underachievers yeah yeah yeah Yeah, I feel like you'll be charmed by my meekness. I feel like if I'm, if I present myself as more meek, if I present my soft belly to you,

then you will be my friend in podcasts with me sometime. I don't know who you think you're talking to. I've been doing this self-deprecating Ashkenazi, Nebish Jew a lot longer than you have. That's true. You know, like we might have to fight it out for who's the alpha. Yeah, yeah. The alpha of, yeah, who's the alpha of betas? dominate with our submissiveness that's right uh this is getting hot this is getting hot

this is a hot pod um just a reminder to everyone out there please five stars in review on all of the podcast apps you have out there um and uh please you know uh hit that super chat the payment thing you see daniel there's this thing that uh because this show can barely do ads on YouTube um because uh i keep using copyrighted material whatever i'm the badass um you haven't thought of getting the katusha rocket uh corporation to advertise oh katusha if you're out there i know you need some good press and it's time uh man i i i i you know i know that i know that they still got katushes over there and you know hesbalah's got those katushes i wonder yeah i wonder if uh

you know is there still like a company i mean that are they still around are they just old weapons these are questions that i have i feel like old old man katusha died and the katusha siblings had this there was this this this row you know they had oh sure the succession which direction to take the company like one of them wanted to invest in real estate the other one's like no um so no i want i want more rockets i want more rockets and the other one was like why don't we uh i don't know pivot to shoes you know it's a high beast needs something to wear katusha shoes anyways super chat you know say hey i love the show and then you know give a dollar that that'll be sick um and also uh there's a subreddit um run by our mod jp ben

check it out uh you or no not you are slash bad hasbara uh okay today we have a lot uh to cover and we have a great guest uh they are a student they are an activist uh they are someone who listens to the show and I was very honored to hear that. Ladies and gentlemen and everyone else, our guest today is Noi Katsman. Hello, hello. How are you doing? I guess that's a loaded question. How are you doing?

Well, it's fine. I'm in Germany in the meantime. It's pretty cold here, I would say. Yeah. Pretty frozen days. I just had a guest from Germany on the last episode who was in Germany, and I was also hearing about the coldness, which it's like 60 degrees Fahrenheit in Los Angeles right now. So I kind of get it. We're just coming out of a cold snap here in Brooklyn where it was in the minus Celsius degrees. Matt is definitely flaunting his warm privilege.

Yeah, I'm wearing a T-shirt. it's nice yeah you guys you know you guys are all bundled up i'm i could be naked and it would be it would be fine um but uh yeah the the thank you so much noi for coming on the show um when you reached out i had actually seen an interview with you already on um CNN um with jake Tapper. And so I was stoked that you actually wanted to come on to the show and that you listened to it at all. And I wanted to ask you about your story. I think it's fascinating and I think it's poignant and something that I think our listeners, a perspective, our listeners do not often get to hear from mainstream news outlets. So from what I understand,

understand your brother was one of the victims on October 7th and what I saw was you I believe breaking the silence shared the clip of you on Jake Tapper speaking out against the idea of using these deaths of you know obviously in your family and then of the other you know, civilians who were murdered as a pretext to do more murder. And I wanted to speak to you about that and about your story. Um, yes, um, sadly, sadly, like, you know, um, it was after what happened in October. Um, so I was like, first of all, I was really shocked and sad with what happened to my brother. Um, but like as an activist, so I, understood because I know, I think all of us know the equation that as many Jews that are killed,

you need to kill times 10, 20, 100. I don't know where we are now. But I know as someone who lived all my life in Israel, I know that that's what's going to happen. So I felt like, okay, I have the option now. It's like my one option to say something before like, yes. Well, it didn't seem it helped too much sadly but um yes but an important thing um to say to kind of fight against i think the current of um i don't know mainstream uh media outlets um almost ignoring the idea that um or taking for granted the idea that like people would have a range of opinions outside of taking immediate and brutal revenge on the people of Gaza. So for me, it was eye-opening and amazing to hear,

and unfortunately, voices like yourself have been silenced or just not given any space at all. And I want to ask your experience about that and whether or not that is something you, you are experiencing in both Western media and in Israel, or is there a more robust talk about that in Israel? Well, in Israel, you can't say anything that is not like, that is like even saying that there are innocent people in Gaza

is something difficult to say. After my interviews, so first of all, I didn't get of course any interview from any mainstream media in Israel. except for the most most lefty channel that no one even knows about it's just a website called a local talk but no one heard of it well that's kind of this podcast is basically the American version of local talk I'm sorry no one's heard of this either yes but some Israelis who were who got to my video somehow so I got actually very interesting messages

like a lot of, yes, like the favorite one, the classic of horror go to Gaza, you know. Yeah. Which as a trans non-binary woman, I see it as a compliment in a way, you know. Very validating. Sure. Yeah, you're like, me too. Yeah, it's nice, but yes, it wasn't the most. So there's like, so because the Israelis, I think because out of this wasn't covered in,

the Israeli media so I didn't get as many as insults as they expected I do I will because like as I get also in other occasions when I express my radical ideas that we shouldn't kill innocent people in Gaza like that's now in Israel it's something I'm wow or even that such a thing even that such a such a kind of human being exists an innocent Gaza yeah yeah Yeah, that idea in and of itself is, and I'll play some video a little bit later where that becomes very apparent, that that is a idea that people are now, I mean, they're just, they've been saying it out loud for the last three months. The idea of innocent Palestinians, innocent Ghazans specifically is just, it's now, you know, in question, as if that's not clearly, clearly genocidal language. um but yeah um in uh can i say in my university so um so the rector sent a letter to all of the students about uh rules of discourse and how you're your speak with respect to each other in uh the university and one of the lines that shocked me was uh talking like uh wait

Okay, saying that you aren't allowed to kill innocent people is allowed. Like you wrote it as something that is allowed to say in the university. Yeah, just so, yeah, in case anyone was questioning whether or not that was something. So what isn't allowed? What goes too far? I'm wondering. I mean, it's weird that a university would be issuing guidelines of acceptable speech. it strikes me as that if anywhere is supposed to be a bastion of free speech at least in the

American context although of course we're looking now that there is an Israel exception yeah but what sort of lines were they drawing um to talk about your own feelings and to talk about to be respectful or whatever but uh it's interesting they said it but they didn't say if you're allowed to like criticize Israel's policy in Gaza so I guess that you aren't allowed to so you can be you you can lament the situation you can express sort of regret but not remorse or not not not not not rebuke the government no i just just to to make things more real i i i haven't watched the jake tapper clip what was your brother's name uh my brother's name el hain we are an american family both of my parents are a zionists and i moved to israel and i needed to deal with the consequences

me and my uh all of my family my brother was actually he was uh he wrote about religious zionism to our family he was he also uh made his phd in a university in of washington in seattle where my grandfather is and he was a real serious peace activist like very radical um it's funny a lot of like especially israel uh coverage tried to make it like he was like Yeah, he loved peace or whatever. But he was like, he went to like the West Bank and he protected Palestinians from settlers in the army. Yeah. It was like very serious stuff, like very not like just.

Did that kind of activism upset your family? Well, I think it divides. Actually, it's interesting because after, I guess it's happened in many American families. but after like was it 2016 it was trump and stuff so my family started this division my mother was really anti-tramp and my father was really pro-Trump and it made a lot of tension in the family so I would say yes my mother is more like more feminist more liberal and my father is more on the right side but there is some kind of liberalism still

like this old liberalism that you believe in, you know? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Did you, when your, so did you and your brother move to Israel at the same time? Or when did you move there? Or did your whole family move there? No, my parents got to marry. My father's from Seattle.

My mother's from Cincinnati. They moved to, they got married. They met in New York. they met and then they were just done as they moved to Israel so and I all of my family except for my oldest brother was one year's old we're born and raised in Israel so I actually lived in Israel out of my life I mean this is the first time in Germany it's like I left in September for student exchange the first time I'm living outside of Israel oh wow I need to come back like on 7th of October it was it wasn't that is nuts from what I

understand Berlin is just full of Israelis. It's like an Israeli refugee camp. Well, now more so than before maybe. Yeah, so that's one of the reasons I didn't go to Berlin. It's also expensive and also many Israelis. I once, I recorded a voice message in Hebrew and suddenly someone did like talk to me in Hebrew. I was like, oh no, I don't want this experience. well but so how much of that that sort of emigration from Israel that seems to be like I don't know what

the numbers are these days of like so-called alia versus so-called erida which are the two terms from moving there and moving away literally meaning going up and going down it's like an elevator it's like a spiritual going up going down going down like droopy droopy and like Going up, sir. Zionism, sir. Alia, sir. But how much of the exiting Israel has to do with young people just feeling the creeping fascism, militarism, not wanting to have anything to do with it?

Or is it more just culturally wanting to be more worldly? Or feeling trapped in such a small space. That was, you know, that's what I've heard from. from some Israeli friends who moved. It was just feeling like there's a whole world outside of there. And Israel's basically the size of New Jersey or Vancouver Island. So yeah, what would you say about what's motivating people to leave? Well, I would say sadly, it started like before the,

also before 7th of October because of the really right wing government, even more right wings than we're used to. Right. Like we're used to really radical right. and suddenly it can be even worse we were yeah but sadly like the I feel most of it is like liberal Zionists like bourgeois liberal dionists who like feel that they're stealing from them like because okay so before so the liberal dionists were the elite in Israel and then like now the settlers are taking over and the religious Zionism is taking over so a lot of

people felt it's not their country anymore uh they just were we're uh i think they were disappointed that they aren't that they aren't uh like uh killing palestanians anymore other people are doing that you know well you know what that you know what that reminds me of it's uncanny this the minute 2016 happens yeah the entire liberal liberal class in america says not my president yeah this is no i don't recognize this is not who this is not my America. Like fuck, it's not who you are. Obama, you know, drone bombing, kicking out Latino immigrants. I mean, absolutely it's who you are. Trump's just a much less flattering face for it. That doesn't make you feel as good about yourself. Right. Yeah. Yeah, this is a more

Yeah, go ahead. No, because Benny Gantz, which is the star of the liberal Israeli thing, he made a video that he, a video for one of the last elections that he brought when he was like the chief of the army, of course. So he brought Gaza back to the Stone Age. So he made, it was, it's like a terrible video that it's like counting up the numbers of Palestinians in Gaza he killed. So this is the alternative to bin Amin Netanyahu. Right. Yeah. And so you think, you know, or your experience is that a lot of people were just moving because they were disillusioned with the they saw the right word shift and said this is going too far right and uh is like i got to get out while the getting's good or i got to get out um just so that i am not um by staying here

complicit in what this state is doing and what it's becoming yes i mean i think the liberals um it's like their right wing but they are like say oh at least we like their one thing their one flag is like we like LGBT Jews right right right right yeah right right right yeah Palestinian LGBT from the way you can't love all LGBTs you got to pick one race and or religion come on LGBT Jew plus or Jew minus yeah or Jew minus either way because they don't because they don't like anti-Zionist LGBT like I doubt they're a big fan of you no they aren't as i said it wasn't interviewed anywhere um yes i'm uh spoke did you see this photo of uh oh i think you talked about it once max that uh he has of the soldier with the big uh the big pride flag uh yeah

on the rubble of people's homes uh and then there's also the you know two idf soldiers uh male soldiers, I think, who are, uh, uh, one is asking the other to marry them. Or maybe, maybe I'm confusing, uh, my, my husbandara images. But, uh, yeah, definitely a lot of pink washing that I've seen coming from liberal Zionists. Uh, and it seems to be like the main point of, uh, like, um, point of pride, so to speak. Um, it's also, it's also a point of attack. Glenn Greenwell did a very good video about this last week about how as a gay man one of the things he gets from some of his right wing viewers is okay you go to gaza and they'll rape you and throw you off a roof or whatever right you know and this is supposed to even if that's true this is supposed to in some way uh induce him to

support a genocide right yeah it's like oh man i never thought about it that way you're right kill them all yeah yes that's what people always tell me every time I write something about against genocide or I don't I also I really try to make my messages like more easy for Israelis to gas because at least I want them to hear something but they always tell me oh if you were in Aza one one time so like you would get killed or something when when one throw to me in a private message if you would try to walk in Gaza with uh with a dress let's see how it will uh how will you do with that and i told him so i told him

does it turn you on like you're like you're imagining a lot of sexual imagery here and violent imagery so it sounds like you need therapy well speaking of which i saw the most horrible thing and and you know and this i think always happens with rapacious and you know rapacious you know the root of that word. Regimes where you have to sexualize and eroticize your desire to dominate. You have to put that energy somewhere and the tension of it and it gets kinky in your mind. I saw a video of one of these fucking rockets that Mike Pence and other reprobates are writing on, which, you know, I was thinking.

If someone wants to invest in a kind of rocket that self-destructs five seconds after someone takes a Sharpie to it, I would totally, I would invest. But a kid, but I have to. But it said, it actually said, the dildo of consequences rarely comes lubed. And someone proudly posted this on Instagram and the comments are all like, ha, ha, ha, finally we found something that could like fill Mia Khalifa or some shit. Like, just the misogyny, the porn-brained fucking hatred and the eroticization of their own supremacy was fucking wild to me. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

And I also find it interesting, too, that, like, you know, I get attacked by, like, racist, like, Nazi, white supremacists, Jew haters on the Internet and whatnot. And I always find that they, in general, talk about how they themselves are going to get me. And that's nothing new. But what I find with Zionists who are mad at my posts or whatever is that they like to, rather than they themselves wishing me harm, they like to tell me how much they're any. would harm would harm me their their whole thing is is basically outsourcing the torture and murder of me to people that they are trying to convince me to hate listen listen listen matthew matthew matthew matthew i'm not saying i'm going to do anything to you you're my brother yeah i would never i'm just saying i know a guy i murdered his whole family he's going to blame

you yeah and when he comes for you i might not be there Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do you, so will you join? So come aboard. So come aboard. Yeah, I love, I love the recruiting tactic of join or I'm going to get this guy to murder and rape you. Yeah, very nice, very nice. I wanted to add that I was yesterday, I was in the Israeli embassy in Berlin, I needed to get some documents. And I saw this amazing document. Can I show it to you a second? yes please oh okay oh wow oh a whole brochure holy shit look at that that is a chat that is all right so for those listening at home it is uh it says l gbtq plus in israel rainbow flag there uh oh it's a trans flag

as well um and it's just it's a shirtless it's a group of men but one of them is no shirt oiled up big pecks looking fly looking ready to come kick a whole family out of their home for existing just beautiful that puts the that puts the heart in hatikva am i right i really i really i love the uh there's kind of a dual purpose in the like uh sexualization is a big part of um i think uh hasbara in that you've got it you know in one sense you've got it used as a weapon as we were just talking about the idea of like you you know these people that you care so much about would rape you like they love to mention uh sexual violence but they also use it as a sales tool as like you know uh the hotter the IDF soldier um the more likely they are to be uh front and center

in a video um about you know like the horrors of october seventh or whatnot it's like they and like that brochure is a perfect example of just like what what is that other than like hey men do you like to fuck come to israel we also like to fuck which is i mean cool listen we don't like to fuck our ladies soldiers won't report it to anybody right exactly are you sick and tired of this feminist movement ruining the U.S. military? It's just like this. You should see our numbers of complaints that we didn't investigate last year. I love the idea of selling, selling Israel is like the land of a land of mommy milkers and honey.

You know what I mean? Mommy milkers and honeies. Yeah, money. Yes, mommy milkers and honeys. just oh man it is it is really um i mean you know it plays on that part of my brain that like middle school part of my brain that like um like the same thing that made me excited to one day go to is the same thing that made me one day excited to go to college which was literally just like i hear people fuck there sexual zionism yeah sexual zionism exactly exactly um but

Back to... What was it like growing up just having sex all the time? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I grew up in a religious family, so I went to only school, only boys' schools. But it doesn't mean there wasn't fucking, you know. Yeah, yeah, for hidden. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I just say something quick about Israeli hotness?

Yes. Because I grew up going to Habonim Dror summer camp. I don't know if you know that movement, Noi, you know, affiliated with Hashemer, Hatseir, kibbutz-based. And we always had female madrachim counselors. And they had just come out of the army. And there was an aura, a mystique about these women and about the men. And, you know, my girl campmates were gaga over these, you know, gwarim. if that's the right term, Bahurim.

But with the women, there was a kind of distant hotness. There was a kind of just exoticness. And I always just thought, well, that's just Israel's sexiness. Right. And then I saw this video recently where it was female soldiers reporting on their experience in the army. And there was this one woman giving a testimony and she says, I shot a boy once. And she has this faraway look in her eyes, and she's got a smile on her lips, but the eyes don't match it. There's a kind of dissociation.

And I recognize that look from something having to do with a certain kind of Israeli mystery. And it made me wonder, is it possible that all these years, what we've been lusting after is a kind of dissociative, I mean, look, Israelis are good looking. There's no doubt about that. And many of them are in shape much more than North American Jews are because of the army. But beyond that, I wonder, like, have we been attracted to a certain kind of distance from trauma or a certain kind of psychological coping mechanism? I wonder what you think about that, and if you think anything of it at all. What, like, about the hotness of...

Just the Israeli psychology of, like, what does it take? To maybe not the hotness thing, but just the dissociation that is, I mean, you see it in the eyes of porn actors, too. You know, there's a kind of dissociation from your own body that you have to take on if you're going to constantly be doing that. And maybe I'm going way far afield with this, but I just, it really struck me. Yes, I think it's a problem because like me also, I was in the army. I was in the Navy, actually. And like, you always need to convince yourself that you're doing the right thing,

even though, like, I was kind of, I guess when I entered the army, I was kind of a liberal Zionist, less liberal than is how you, whatever you call that. So you always need to kind of convince yourself that what you're doing is okay. And like, there's, there's a lot of power behind you and a lot of people that make you feel,

like make sure you feel okay with what you're doing. But I guess, like, of course it can't, like, when you do, things that aren't like yes what you are you know not moral but not like yes you think you're moral but you're doing

not moral things and they go against your kind of their kind of soul destroying like some part of you can't be with it you know can I tell you a story from the army so I was in a boat and

my boat we guarded Gaza so we went back and forth in a boat in Gaza small boat and one night we just crashed into a small boat of a and a fisherman and we just killed a fisherman oh wow and like and I remember all of the people like so they send you a psychologist but like and they tried to like convince you it's it was a difficult thing there's a lot of difficult things like this and you need to like somehow convince yourself that it's okay convince yourself that you're okay you know was it an accident or was it claimed to be an accident it was definitely an accident but i remember they like told us yes we shouldn't like uh um like publicize it because it may make them like uh get against us you know like if the palestinians will know we did it so like they will yeah that's what'll tip them over into resenting you

finally after all these years of giving you a giving you a free pass no more mr nice palestinian yes of course but of course it's not an accident in the broader sense because what the fuck were you doing in their waters in the first place well yeah i mean listen someone someone's got to make sure that uh you know supplies don't get in don't get out and also like if they love it's not it's not even

that it's yeah it's not even that it's just like you they can fish six miles away right if we feel good we let them nine miles 12 that miles if we don't feel good this day we let them last it's not it wasn't even like for security like some of it was no you're protecting the deep water fish well you don't want to radicalize them like you know the deep water fish are right now, neutral, if not a little bit pro-Zionist, but as soon as you get the Palestinians in there, then, right. You want a Gosen shark to start attacking beachgoers in Tel Aviv?

Is that you want a Hamas shark? Come on, man. They teach their fish to hate Jews. They catch them. They whisper Allah-Hu Akbar in their ears over and over again. And then they catch, indoctrinate, release. That's right. That's right. So, continuing on, Noye, what, your brother, Haim, was in a kibbutz, living in a kibbutz.

Do you know the name of the kibbutz? Kibbutz Cholit. Okay. Do you know what the status of that kibbutz is right now, is our people, are people, residents have they moved back in or anything no no i don't think so oh okay last i was updated yeah well uh that is um not uh a unique story uh i was alerted to this really fascinating wild um development that's going on um in israel right now now with regards to the Kibbutzim that were attacked on the seventh. And I don't know if you guys have read much about this, but many of them have been turned into tourist attractions

by both the state of Israel and now by private tourism companies. So the message I got is from an Israeli who sent me this message. I wanted to share with you an example of bad Hasbara from the Israeli perspective. From the beginning of the war,

the IDF uses the houses of the victims of October 7th in the Kibbutzim as a Hezbara site. The owners of these houses are now displaced or held as hostages in Gaza, but it doesn't

disturb the authorities to nationalize their trauma without even asking them. And the worst part is that a tourist company entered into the business and are taking money for these tours. The people who lived there didn't even know about it or specifically allow it. Imagine your community and your family barely being able to survive a cruel terror attack. Many of them were murdered and abducted. Your homes burned and you left without with that. nothing in the state who abandoned you once during the attack now takes your house inviting

strangers to your most private place making money from your tragedy and when I heard about this a lot of things clicked into place for me because I don't know about y'all but at least in my life I know a few people who, since the 7th, American Jews who have gone, like, full Zionist. And this ranges from, like, just, you know, private people who are just people I know, to comedians that I know. Comedians that I think a lot of us have seen, you know, Michael Rappaport and Lee Kern, for example. Alleged comedians. Alleged comedians. Actors turned comedians, some of them.

And they, and including like stand-up comics, so I'm like, they're not even famous. What are they doing? How do they have like a, like, I didn't, I would see these videos of them at the sites of terror attacks on October 7th, getting these guided tours. And I was like thinking, well, do people think that they are news media? Like what is going on here? I had no idea that this is turned into an entire business of Hasbara that is, you know, at the expense of the people who lived there who would like to return home. And just here is one example that I wanted to play for y'all of one of the Kivitzim that was hit was named Kafaraza. and there is an evangelical tour that happened recently

with the ex-governor Mike Huckabee, now Fox News contributor Mike Huckabee was there. And here's a little bit of some of the trauma porn slash revenge-inducing propaganda that they made. with the delegation of evangelical leaders led by Joe Rosenberg and Governor Mike Hakebe. Kibbutz Kvahrazah on the 6th of October had 900 civilians living here. I just want to say, again, they find the hottest one, and they're like, put her front and center. Seventh of October the day's following.

On the 6th of October, Kvahar Aza, Kvahar Aza had 9th. 900 Israeli citizens living here. They can fuck off. They are not allowed to come back. Yeah, yeah. Because now it has 60 tour guides living here, one hot dog vendor. Yeah. And seven Israeli Arab janitors.

Yes, and a small church for all the evangelicals who are coming. A chaplain. Yeah. On the 7th of October and the days following, Sixty-three were murdered in this kibbutz. Eighteen are kidnapped into Gaza. Some of them are still in Gaza, as we're speaking. Six were severely injured, and one is unaccounted for till this day.

We don't know what happened with him. If he's kidnapped or was murdered, we just don't know. 75 days in. And I want to start by mentioning one specific person, Ophir Liebstein. You can see his picture behind me. He believed in peace and worked towards it. And one of his known sentences was that this is 95% heaven and 5% hell, and that we can make it 100% heaven. If you'll ask the residents that we've talked with firsthand, they told us that on the 7th of October, it became 100% hell.

Just to stop down real quick on that, what she is saying in that moment about this person who was murdered. You know, on October 7th, who foolishly believed that it was 95% heaven and 5% hell. It's almost, it's like insulting in this way that I find mind-blowing. Mind-blowing in its disrespect for the, you know, for the dead and for the person who, you know, and knowing maybe you can speak to this, the idea of using someone, I'm not saying that the, you know, a person who started that Kibbutz was necessarily an activist or a peace activist, but I'm saying the idea of using the death of someone who believed in peace ostensibly as naive and using it as a tool to try and get people to accept the deaths of innocent civilians in Gaza.

I think it's like a really nice like a regular really regularly technique like I think the it's like the question of risk like the people in Gaza or in a round of Gaza or in Israel live with like almost no risk and they never feel any risk of them being like they feel in heaven actually most of the time while the people in Gaza they were just rated the fourth happiest country in the world that's right when that poll was taken i bet it was before october 7th but but the but the Israeli government tweeted it out being like yes yeah even with all of our trials and tribulations we're still happy now look at whose bottom of the list and iran was one of the and this is supposed to mean something yes yeah yeah so at the moment that is that the Palestinians of course always have risk because always the army can come and settlers or whatever ever can do or you can just get bombed or you can just killed get killed right and like the moment that israeli's feel a little bit of a little bit of what Palestinians feel in their daily life

so they're like shocked i think that's part of the asbarra like the of 7th october they really they're really so self-centered i mean i think they really can't understand the calisians feel in their daily life they have no idea so they think it's going to impress people that they show them, oh, we lived in this amazing life, and we had a little bit of problems and now, like, they don't, they don't get the power relations. They don't understand what's going on. That's a great point. That's a really great point. They don't like it when the unlobed dildo of consequence comes at them. Right, right, right. It shows up in their bathtub. Right. You know, it occurs to me, Kfarazza is like, what, three kilometers from the Gaza

a border, you know, so they said it used to be 95% heaven, 5% hell. Well, it's really what it is is the gates of hell. I mean, it's like the, it's just, it's like the little rest stop outside of hell. Right. Yeah, it's the bathroom break right before. And the fact, like I said this on October 8th, you know, that, that festival, that rave festival outside, it's obviously tragic that anyone died there. As sad as it is and as innocent on one level as those kids are, that event was not innocent. They were having a fucking party, a psychedelic, spiritual, pro-peace, pro-love party on the outskirts of a ghetto or a concentration camp. And the fact that Israelis are able to live there in such proximity to hell and not feel hell except 5% is just unsuscious.

sustainable. Yeah. It's a question that I've always had. I mean, I, you know, I think as Americans, we also live with a small, with a version of that where there is a, we all live with a, we all live with a hypocrisy, you know, in proximity to, you know, things of, like horrors of a systemic nature that we are the beneficiaries of, at least in white America. And I looked at that festival with a similar feeling to you, Daniel, in that I looked at that and I said, like, the, number one, I think it's framing as a peace festival seems a little bit disingenuous. I think what they meant when they said it's a peace festival is they're talking about purr?

I don't think of the, I'm not in, I know all of the peace festivals. that happened because it's a really small level of felis and like i don't think there were like palestinians or any signs in arabic so i don't think it would be a piece no no no no i just mean peace vibes man no no no that's exactly what they meant though they meant plur like if you know anything about dance music and edm in america plur it's peace love unity respect and they took that you know fucking milk toast ass phrase that you know kids on molly say when they are already fucking high and you know they go oh man i love festival because of plur taking that and then kind of like affixing it to any edm festival is automatically a peace festival therefore it's it's even more

tragic and evil um what hamas did it's like no it was a festival it was a music festival outside of an open-air prison and that's not to excuse the deaths that's not to say that anyone there deserved to die or any of that but it's like that kind of um like that kind of contradiction living in that kind of situation in which you would feel comfortable um and not think twice about the idea of doing uh having your dance party um with bass that can probably be heard in gaza um you know like uh just having that and not feeling anything like that to me i look at that and i go that that seems strange and you know yeah we've had we've had the we've had the term pep for many years progressive except for palestine right well now we

now we need plurup yeah peace love unity respect except for palestine i wanted to say that something very interesting about this video is like the that they really like to show that Israelis wanted peace but the truth is that every time before 7th of October after the 7th of October I talk about peace I get so much hate every time I talk about

about peace and everyone tells me how I'm naive and so I'm sadly oh they love peace I mean the moment they can use it for propaganda that like we really do we like yes of course I'm still a Jewish in the Zionist country I have privilege but we do we do a lot of work

I mean activist work and whatever and like we get so much hate about it. And the moment that they can use it for them, they can use it for the narrative, so they take it as much as they can. It's like amazing. That's a great point too. You're 100% right.

That is something that, yeah, you get nothing but shit for being a peace activist. And then as soon as, you know, a right winger can use it for their own political purposes of showing the folly of peace, That's the time where you go, all these, you know, these, these poor unfortunate souls who believed we could ever make peace and didn't know that, yeah, that we have to. I appreciate the musical theater reference there. Well, I got to love Little Mermaid, you know.

I noticed when I was in Israel 30 years ago for 10 months on Kibbutz Urim, which is 26 miles from Jolit, I just looked it up, that Israel. Araeli's amongst themselves and to us didn't use the word shalom. They used the word shekett, which is quiet. It's the same word that our counselors would sing at us at summer camp to get us to be quiet. Shekett, bavakasha, hey. And that was like their way of, you know, quiet, please. And that's very telling. It's very different to be a quiet activist than to be a peace activist, you know?

Yeah, that's a very good point. That's one thing that is really in Israel. So I was in a student like activist group. It's called Standing Together. It's a bigger group, but I was in my university specifically. And there was another group, which is called The Reduction of the Conflict. Like the Movement for Reduction of the Conflict. I love it.

Let's water it down, baby. That reminds me. My dad used to tell me this, his favorite book was a Hungarian political. political satire book called the Good Soldier Sphike, I think it was called. Classic. I've never read it, but in it, there's a political party called, what is it? The party for moderate social, incremental moderate social change within the bounds of the law. That is great.

Oh, my God. I love reduction of the conflict is beautiful, because that is just so. So that is, it's just so careful. It's like, it's like trying to, it's like, it's like, it's like someone with no teeth trying to eat a steak. Just gumming it. Like, don't worry, we'll get there eventually. Oh, wow. No, but those people have the reduction of the conflict.

Yeah. So it's like, it's not funny because in Israel, it's really a thing. People think that they can manage the conflict like it's a high tech company, you know? yes we think because we're so good in high tech so we can also manage the Palestinians like we don't notice that Palestinians are people yeah like and all of this thought that's exactly what brought the death of my brother and all of these people because you think you can reduct you can reduce the conflict you can make it smaller as those noisy Palestinians we can put them in the concentration

cap but like if you put so much path force so you get it back like it's like so obvious for me. Yeah. Like, it's so sad that me and my brother and people like us were saying it for years, but just get hate and, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It is really, I mean, fighting against that current in Israel,

I can't imagine how difficult it was, you know, for you. And I can imagine, you know, why you would want to get out. Do you think that, you know, when people, People talk about the left in Israel, they almost, they talk about it as like non-existent in a way. And I always kind of like, I don't know, I pulled back at that a little just because while on a percentage basis, that might be true. I feel like I happen to know every, then I know every peace activist in Israel. Is that the case? but yeah but it's important to say that also like 20% are Palestinian of citizens of Israel

right and they are by the way it's really funny in Israel because they get so much hate but they're a lot more left and a lot more pragmatic than any like any Israeli the 90% of the Israelis yeah like they're so left it I did an Instagram live this morning with two Israelis who have just started a great podcast called One State Solution. I don't know if you know these guys, Alon and Elek, and we should totally have them on this show. I love the name, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And their YouTube channel is Hebrew Canaanite or Kananite. And someone in the chat asked, you know, how big, how small a minority are you guys? And Alon said, anti-Zion is Jews like us, like not just ceasefire Jews, but anti-Zionist Israeli Jews, he said we're no more than a tenth of a percent, you know? Wow.

Yeah. I mean, it's, I do wonder the, in terms of the spectrum of people on the left in Israel, the, I mean, I can, I know already that the media in Israel obviously doesn't give any air to anyone who would consider themselves an anti-Zion. Zionist Jew, or if they did, it would be, you know, the, what do they call it, the Orthodox, you know, anti-Zionist sect that's there, and they just frame them all as like, oh, well, if you're an anti-Zionist Jew, you're just, you're some sort of religious extremist or something like that,

rather than being what every anti-Zionist Jew that I know personally is, which is just a secular humanist who is against apartheid but in your experience noi was was the community was there solidarity amongst the people in the spectrum of like you know from the reductionists to the anti-zionist secular Jews or was it stratified in this way in Israel where the anti-Zionist Jews all stuck together and the, you know, the reductionists all went too liberal or, you know, center-right think tanks or whatnot. Like, what was your experience? How do you call it after you, sorry, my English isn't the best. After you wake up, after you drink a lot of wine and then you get hung over. Hang over? Yeah. No, but you're not drunk anymore.

You want to say, like, I just, I got... Oh, sober. Yes. Yeah. So everyone, after 7th of October, everyone wrote, we are sober, I'm sober. The Palestinians don't want peace, blah, blah, blah, blah. Wow. And, like, in my opinion, it's a very big thing.

And everyone, it's like, it's a thing. It's a phenomena. The sober phenomenon, I would say. How do they say it in Hebrew? So they're saying they were they were they were sobered up. So they were saying basically I was drunk on coexistence. I was drunk on hope and possibility and humanity. And I have now sobered up and I've gotten that talk those toxins out of my system. And I can see clearly now the love is gone. I can see clearly now the hope is gone. I can see all the Palestinians in my way. So I'm sorry, but this sounds like the worst 12-step program I've ever heard.

Getting sober from love. My name is Noam, and I'm a hopeless peace activist. Hi, Noam, keep coming back. Yeah, yeah, keep coming back. It's not working. I saw one of them writing. she wrote in her she pinned it

on Facebook I'm still on Facebook that's my thing I'm still on that age so she pinned on Facebook the things I was an activist against occupation on my life and what and all of the terrible things that the occupation did

doesn't even get close to what happened to the 7th of October oh wow crazy crazy I mean it's like It's interesting to me, just as, you know, I'm sure also with you, Daniel, you know, as people who lived through America during 9-11, like, I looked at the, it looked at this is like very similar in terms of the way that people were reacting where all of a sudden all of the air was taken out of the room by anyone who even uttered the idea of coexistence of peace or the, you know, know, and in America, it was like anyone who's even talking about the idea of not seeking revenge for these attacks. And, you know, the difference was we needed targets. You know, we didn't have a giant refugee camp in our midst in America to immediately pin it on. You know,

we had to figure out. I mean, you could have chosen Saskatchewan, but... I mean, we should have, but we didn't. No, but like, we, you know, we had to, we had to, like, gin up support. We needed to manufacture consent. We needed to find a reason why it had to be Afghanistan and not say Saudi Arabia or whatnot, you know, and why it had to be Iraq and not Iran. And not the Pentagon. Right.

And not the Pentagon and not, you know, Halliburton's location in Texas. But like we had to, you know, like, yeah, all of the air was sucked out of the room for anyone who was even remotely thinking of the idea of like, let's not overreact. And so I gave a little bit of a little bit of grace to Israelis that I knew who were in that. you know, state because I was like, I remember feeling, you know, the same way. I mean, I was a kid, but I was still, you know, I was like, yeah, I think this means we got to kill everybody, which is, I think, the logic of a child and not the logic of sound adults. But in the months now that it's been and the amount of death that we've seen, do you see anyone

and, you know, that you know, changing their tune, noi, like, are people who got sober, are they maybe dipping into the peace wine again at some, you know, in some way? The toxic piece wine. Yeah, the toxic piece wine. Are they chipping a little bit? Well, so there is a little bit. I mean, most of it, I think I feel a little, like, it's really, it's very difficult for them to give empathy to Palestinians because we were indoctrinated all our lives that they aren't

worth anything. So it's a little difficult. But if you talk about maybe the hostages, so they may start listening. Like, so I try not to say like I'm against killing of Palestinians because no one who care about that. I say, you know, this war is killing the hostages. And they are like, some of them will say, you're right. Some of them will say. But like, And what's funny is that Israel is offering, like, the Hamas, like, you're saying, okay, listen, bring us back the hostages. And then in two weeks, we're going to come and crush you totally. I know.

We're going to, we're going to. The logic of it makes no sense, and it hasn't made sense from the beginning. And it's one of those things where I just, like, you know, where everyone thought they were going crazy. One of the big reasons is we all said, like, okay, so bombing all of Gaza, will for sure kill the hostages, right? And also, they kept saying, like, no, we can't stop this or else we'll never get the hostages back. And it's like, wait, do you think that they're holding the hostages?

Like, because they want, like, what does the ransom note say? Like, you better keep bombing us or we'll kill these hostages. Don Corleone. Don Corleone. What's your plan to bring back the hostages? I'm going to make them an offer they can't accept. just the idea of of like saying with a straight face these hostages will die if we do not raise their current locations to the ground is just or or pump poison gas into the tunnels which yes or recently accused the army of doing that you gassed my son like Auschwitz can I say a couple of things about 9-11 oh please than 9-11 comparison yeah so number one Israel self-consciously used that comparison very cynically in the weeks after this is our 9-11 whatever Biden said it was like he said

it was 9-11 times like 10 or something which is a line from team America world police right which means that is Israel's response which was more immediate and more proportionally destructive though it's so far hasn't lasted nearly as long is going to be Israel's 9-11 2 which is a fucking disaster and was based on lies and all of that. I also wanted to say, and no, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but this quote unquote sobering up thing, it's not new. I track it at least to the second Intifada, which was when the Israeli peace movement started to fracture and die. You know, like I remember being in Israel and I had a merits party t-shirt and I think we might have even met Shulamit Aloni and Yossi Sarid.

I think they may have given us a talk. And these were heroes. These were actual peacnicks who understood that the Kibush, the occupation was wrong. It was morally wrong and it was bad for Israel and they wanted to end it. But when the second Intifada happened, and this is one of the dark legacies of Oslo, this illusion that we offered the Palestinians something. And yet again, they proved Abba Eban's fucking horrible dictum right that the Palestinians never missed an opportunity, to miss an opportunity.

And it's kind of like, well, fuck these guys. I'm done with them. I'm over them. We're so over them. We just, we can't with these Palestinians. And that seems to me to be the moment where things started to consolidate right. And a lot of people who wanted to be leftists, you know, basically came over to the center. And once you're in the center, the playing field is tilted.

Once you're in the center of the seesaw, you're going to the right. Yeah. I think it's like the, I think the problem is that Israelis, like, think, as I said, they don't see Palestinian, the things that Jews need to control Palestinians in Israel, it's like, it's a common sense. No one, no one questioned them. It's so obvious that we Jews need to control the Arabs, the Palestinians. In Israel, also in 48th is the Palestinian citizens of Israel. We always need to be a majority. We always need to be a majority. We always need. to have uh we need to have these rules again that they will have land and also of course in the west megan in gaza we this is the only way we know and it's very difficult for jews to think of a different way of that it can be possible because they are convinced at the moment we won't control them they will kill all of us right that's that's what jews believe believe they because i guess because in the back of their mind they know what they did with the

palestinians all these years so they're like oh no they're gonna just gonna i know i know Right. If I get my knee off this guy's chest and remove the knife from his throat, he might insult me or he might punch me or he might get his friends. Yeah, he might kill me. They're lost in the sauce. And the sauce they're lost in is supremacy. And it's addictive. Once you're, it's very difficult to break it. And I've wondered what it would take. You know, it's going to have to take an internal collapse plus an external amount of pressure, plus some kind of terrible defeat, it seems to me, for them to get to the place where they just see

the futility of it. I mean, what snap the Germans out of it? A massive colossal defeat and the internal crumbling of their own ideology and just the exposing it as hollowy. It's the only thing I can imagine. I mean, the, you know, what I try to see in my more optimist brain, and I know, you know, optimist brain is never a good brain to use when it comes to Israel and Palestine. But, but, It's okay to have it in the room. Yeah, I, you know, I said this before, but without the United States full backing, I don't see Israel as pulling a rogue state. I see them as, you know, being South Africa, you know, as being, you know, as being,

you know, having a government that will push and push and push, as far as it can, as far as it's allowed to go until it's, you know, support by the biggest bully on the block, the United States, is pulled. And once that happens, they have to, you know, they can't continue on. They can't continue on. Their security is predicated on the idea of constant support. And I, you know, and maybe I'm just being an optimist here, but, you know, this idea of them like, oh, you know, if it's not United States, it'll be some other country supporting us, and we'll continue this. I see too much cultural similarity and kinship with the West for them to, for, you know,

Israeli citizens at the very least to look at, and no one wants to be South Africa. No one wants to live with that shame. And I think, and I hope that, you know, ending support will push them in the right direction, but who knows? So number one, go China. Number two, like, let God speed the day when the American Empire crumbles. But number two, my only, my worry about that, Matt, is I agree with you that they won't be able to keep up their regime. But my question is, how many, how much destruction are they going to cause on the way down? Because if you have people in power like Ben Gavir Smutridge, even Netanyahu at this point,

totally captured by those people, he doesn't really need to be captured. He was a fanatic, you know, the Settler movement. There was an Israeli politician in the 1970s. I forgot his name, but he said, and I'm only paraphrasing a little bit, that we need to make the world believe that Israel is a mad dog that will would rather bring the entire world down with it than surrender and he said and in fact that is what we are and I call it a suicidal death cult that at a certain point if it felt backed into a corner even by the US

there is a suicide vest it could it could pull they could pull the the cordon which is the nuclear arsenal. I don't know how Noi feels about that, but I just sense the potential for that kind of fanatical refusal to ever be vulnerable. Yeah, Noi, do you have any thoughts? I can just agree. I mean, I think that's the point of liberal Zionism and why they are kind of leaving because they were like, they didn't think that it will become this word. They were like, okay, we're just like, we're doing a really nice occupation. We're really nice.

We go to the army, so the Israelis soldiers are more moral, and we don't do such terrible things to the Palestinians. That's why we go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Change it from the inside. Yeah, change it from the inside. But now these people took it out of control. This is not the nice occupation, the cultural one, you know?

Yeah. I had an experience on Kibbutz one. that taught me everything I needed to know about being a liberal Zionist or a well-intentioned occupation soldier because a lot of the times people would say about these yeshqvul types the you know the yeshqvul meaning there is a limit that was the conscientious refusers organization back and I don't know if they're still around but they would say well you should go because better you go than some racist bigots serve on that patrol you know you at least can you know right up well so on kibbutz

we had different anafim, you know, work branches. And I worked in Hashgaya most of the year, which was irrigation, and I once drove over the national water line of Israel in a tractor in an act of unintentional sabotage and caused a geyser about 30 meters high that everyone from the kibbutz could see. I became an instant infamous legend there. Thank you, comrade. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was probably water being stalled from the Latani River in the West Bank. But yeah, exactly, exactly. My first act of anti-Zinist sabotage. But before I settled on irrigation, which I really enjoyed, and we were not far from Gaza either, and we would see the Gazan workers coming in for the day back when they still allowed Gazans in. I worked in the Lul for one day, which is the chicken coop.

And I came into the day with the best of intentions. And I came into the big fucking, you know, prison that the chickens lived in in these tiny cages and they're all squawking kind of squawking moderately and I said to them out loud I actually said all right chickens I'm not your enemy

I'm here to just get through the day I want to feed you I'm not going to hurt you I respect you I wouldn't want to be in your situation I'm sure you wouldn't want to be in mine you know we don't like each other we don't have to like each other

but let's respect each other and please respect yourselves respect yourselves and respect each other like have some dignity and we're going to get through this just fine and by the end of the day i was like i want to fucking annihilate every one of these because they were pecking at me pecking at each other they were absolutely miserable and insane driven insane by their misery and because i couldn't hate myself or hate the people who sent me in there my default was to hate them and to want to hurt them and i was like oh shit this is what happened at auschwitz this is what happened in vietnam and this is what happens in the territories

yeah you started off as the most moral farmer and now and now here you are yeah well to to wrap this up um talking about just the continuation of the video that I wanted to play just shows to me the purpose of all this, like the purpose of these tours. Like if you're to read about them in like the Jerusalem Post or anywhere, they talk about these tours as like remembrance. It's like they set up mini Holocaust museums essentially. and they almost call them, you know, as much. And you see in the way that they are going to continue talking about this,

that what the purpose of all of this is. Let me see if I can try to get it back, add to stage. There we go. What's the correct terminology here? I honestly don't know. Ghazan civilians, regular gossans. But we're talking about gossans that were not associated or affiliated or affiliated with Hamas that come in and they loot so most of it wasn't even the terrorists

doing it was the looters that came to loot so right now they're just you know once again there are no innocent Ghazans that's that's what she's saying there by the way there were also looters and uh Israeli looters that came to the festival the new festival and took stuff and also uh in in Gaza uh right now you are seeing um a bunch of looting going on including just talk tick talk looting yes like yes me yeah yeah it is it is nuts and as you as we will walk later through these lanes you will see pictures of the young people here that were either kidnapped or murdered in their apartments to see it I mean this looks like just a horrific It's a horror movie.

And it really makes me all that much more realize we've just got to stand with Israel and Israel has to be able to defend itself. We've got to confront Iran. We can't be given Iran money and we've got to push for a change of leadership in Tehran. Okay, so now we're talking regime change in Iran for no fucking reason. All this 25 nations who had civilian people who were kidnapped and taken into Gaza to be used. to be used as human shields and bargaining chips who should never have been involved in all of this.

And I want the world to unite and be angry, angry at Iran for providing the money, angry at these Hamas terrorists, and quite frankly, angry at the Palestinian people who voted to put Hamas in power in Gaza. Wow, Kevin Spacey has really gone down him. I know. Ever since he lost house,

of cards. He's just really leaned into, you know, the drink and foods that are butter-based. I mean, that was ex-governor. What's that? No, this intersection of American right-wing and Israelis-Bara is like an explosion. I know. I know. You get them in a room together. You get Israelis, Barra, and you get American evangelicals. And they're talking about bomb and Iran within the first three seconds, you know what I mean? Like, they're already, like, just immediate, the immediate, like, pivot to Tehran regime change is like, wait, what? What the fuck? Like, before they've stepped in a room, they've already had this conversation in their head together about what they want to do about Iran. But, yeah, like, you know, looking at that

kind of Hezbara, you just, like, you, I think it paints the most clear picture. In my opinion of what the Israeli government is willing to do to get people to continue this, you know, ethnic cleansing and genocide, like this campaign of revenge. and the fact that they are literally willing to sacrifice the lives of the hostages from that kibbutz and sacrifice the residences of the people who survived and who just want to live back in their communities again like they just saying nope that's ours now and we're using it for this purpose that to me is uh um yeah revolting and you know yeah it's very shitty it's like it's like yes they just want a green light to continue to do whatever they want and they're willing to do everything like and all of the you know i want to say the thing that in in israel in my university

you could get many scholarships for doing hasvara you go into this hasvara program all a year it's like a scholarship and you get money for it and like and these and i'm like all these people are putting so much energy in explaining the propaganda of the government and they don't even understand that they're like instead this is the best way to make citizens who never ask questions if they all of the time are convinced that americans and people hate us we always need to explain so you always think what to explain you never will criticize yourself what you're saying you know yeah Well, isn't that the root of the word Hasbara, Lesbiel? Yeah, that's right.

To explain it. You got some explaining to do. All right, that is going to do it for us here. Noi, I want to thank you so much for coming on and talking with us about your experiences and, you know, condolences with regards to your brother. And I really respect that you are someone who is trying to, um, wrestle back the narrative from these ghouls and warmongers who are going to try to use the pain of your pain and the pain of other victims of the seventh to to continue this bloodletting. So I think you're, I think you're great.

Thank you so much for having you. Thanks for your work, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's made me, it's like, for me it's a good experience because it's all of these thoughts I had of Israelis around propaganda that I don't really have who to talk to. And it's very, it made me laugh and helps me to hear this in the podcast. So that's why I love the podcast. That makes me feel great and it makes it worth doing.

It really does. That is awesome. I think if anti-Zionist Israelis or anti-Zionism curious Israelis felt less alone in the world and knew that there is life after that ideology, I wonder if it would ease the transition, you know, and that's the hope. So thank you for saying that. Yeah. Thank you, Noi.

And thank you, Daniel Matte. I love having you as my new sometimes co-host. You're insightful, you're brilliant, you're beautiful, and you just have a great smile. Well, I love being had. by you and it takes one to know that's right i should leave i feel like i'm uh i should leave no no no no no i like it's getting real hot in here oh boy uh bad has barra uh at gmail dot com please uh you know voice send voice memos uh any experiences that you've had that you'd like to share send emails questions comments concerns uh patreon dot com slash frotcast to donate uh

And all right, everyone, thank you so much for listening. And until next time, from the river to the sea, Shoefly, don't bother me. I don't know. I'm trying to think of a new one every time. Jumping jacks was us. Push-ups was us. Grab-maga, us.

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