Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - [UNLOCKED] 140: The 5% Rule, with Miko Peled

Episode Date: January 2, 2026

Matt and Daniel are joined by Founder and President of the Palestine House of Freedom in Washington, DC, author Miko Peled to hear the story of his seminal work The General’s Son and explore the crackup of the Zionist mythos, followed by some dumb, fun crud we didn’t want to do in front of a serious guest.Please donate to the Gaza City Flour Fund: http://bit.ly/gazaflourfundJoin the patreon at https://www.patreon.com/badhasbaraBad Hasbara Merch Store: https://estoymerchandise.com/collections/bad-hasbara-podcastBuy The General's Son: https://justworldbooks.com/books-by-title/the-generals-son-10th-anniv-ed/Palestine House of Freedom: https://www.daralhurriya.org/Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Mashwam hot, bitch, a rib and polka toast. We invented the terry tomato and weighs USB drives and the iron d'all. Israeli salad, oozy stents and jopas orange rose. Micro chips is us. iPhone cameras us. Taco salads us. Pothomas us. All of garden us.

White foster us. Zabrahamas. As far as us. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Bad Hasbara. Had, the podcast, Hachim Musari Be Olam. Mm, very good. My name is Matt Lieb, and I will be your most moral co-host for this podcast. Shmi Daniel.

I'm the host, co-host, Acher. Achi Musari. That's me. Yep. I got to bust out the Ulpan shit. every time we have an Israeli-born guest. Yeah, yeah. You got to do it.

I can't stop it. I can, I can, you can take the guy out of the Zionist summer camp. You can take the Zionism out of his frontal lobe, but somewhere in the back, he wants to please the Israelis by letting him know, right, fluently speaks the Ivrit. Right, but you cannot take out his deep insecurity at the thought that he's speaking to someone who knows more Hebrew than he does. That's correct. Thank you all for joining us for another episode.

please give us five stars and a review on all of the podcast apps that are available also subscribe on our YouTube if you haven't done that then I'm officially mad at you YouTube.com slash at Bethasbara you can search

for it you'll find it it's the show that you watch also and come there on Tuesday for our live stream with Nora Ericott that's right this Tuesday yes we're doing a live stream fundraiser with Nora

Aircott. It's for the Gaza City Flower Fund again. This is the same fundraiser that we did last time with Mosen. He and Harley have been doing great work and we just did another live stream for them for the Do Not Worry

podcast. Yeah, Anthony Sargon did like a 9, 10 hour. Talk about a tryhard, huh? I know. 12 hour stream. We're going to do a solid hour 45 because we're going to raise as much or more money than them. Because that's how we are we?

I hope so. Not that it's a competition. It's not a competition, but also it's a competition. If we pretend like it's a competition, then more people and Gaza get to eat. That's right, exactly. Game of five, this nightmare that we live in. Also, still tickets left for October 13th at the Bell House. Please see Daniel and I and my wife, Francesca, Fiorentini, and more.

Buy your tickets now. Today, this episode is brought to you by, of course, Gazzazzar. City Flower Fund. The Gaza City Flower Fund is raising money to feed up to 250 families in and near Gaza City with two kilogram sacks of flour, purchased at disaster premium prices and given directly to hungry families. That's the donate link. You can donate now, do it, and also donate again on Tuesday when you watch the live stream. Please. For our listeners, that's bit.l.l.I slash Gaza Flower Fund. That's right. Thank you so much. Daniel, what is the spin?

Well, our guest today has a book out called The General's Son. That's right. And inspired by that title, I picked some songs and albums that have the word sun in the title. Oh, I thought you, but General in there. No, I don't have general. It's not too many songs about generals in general, you know? Not too many songs about Generals in General, yeah.

I'd have to think about that one. But this one is the most thematic of all of them. It would be Credence Clearwater Revival, CCR. But the song, Fortunate Son, which includes the line. It ain't me. It ain't me. I ain't no military son. That's right. That's right. And then I got Nirvana's incesticide album, which has two songs with Sun in it, Bein a Son, original, and Son of a Gun, which is a cover.

Oh, look at that. I love that album. It's like all their old collected B-sides, right? Yeah, but like kind of produced in a slightly more glossy way post Nevermind. Right. I like it better than in utero, frankly. In utero doesn't quite work for me as an album. I like it, but it's just so bleak. It's a bit of a mishmash. Yeah. And, yeah.

Iron Maiden, seventh son of a seventh son. There we go. There we go. Yes. This is the third Sonheim musical that I'm putting on the spin. A little night music, which is where the song, Sending the Clowns comes from. But there is a great song called The Miller's Son, which is a song about both sex and social class. Oh, okay. I thought you were doing it just because his name is Sondheim and has

son right there. Exactly. Yeah, very good. Thank you. He got Sondheim. And he's a Jaime. Fun. From Jaime Town. Was that a real slur or was that just like this whole time I've been like, I've still never been called every single slur under the sun. I've never been called a Jaime. I think it was a slur at a certain moment in a certain context because I know that Jesse Jackson slipped up and said it at one point, which led Eddie Murphy to do a very funny kind of slow jam SNL parody song called Don't Let Me Down, High Me Town. Oh, okay.

Or won't you take me to High Me Town? That sounds like fun. No, it was an original. It was great. And then finally, Run DMC with the album Raising Hell, which has the little ditty son of Biford. I was born, son of Biford, brother of Al. Jay is my partner

and runs my pal it's McDaniels not McDonald's the rhymes are Daryls but the burgers are McDonald's Ronalds Oh okay

That's it That's the thing And Matt fucked up at the end I didn't know I didn't know where we were going with it You don't rhyme McDonald's with McDonald's I stopped listening while you were doing it You expect me to pay attention

The entire time You're remembering a rap From the top of your head Come on That's one of the first rap album I ever bought. What you just did is called a Steve Miller rhyme. Oh, where you... Lovey, Dovee, lovey, doy, duffy all the time. Uwee baby, I sure show you a good time.

Can't do that. Can't do it. Don't rhyme the same words. That's what I always say. It's not a rhyme. It's an identity. Anyway, let's move on. Right. So, that's what's spinning. You can listen to all of the music that Daniel has highlighted on our What's the Spin playlist on Spotify? And I suggest you do so. Okay. Today we have a very special guest We're both really excited about this. We've been wanting him on for a while. He's the founder and director of the Palestine House of Freedom in D.C. He's written a couple of fantastic books.

I've read one of them. He wrote The General's Journey of an Israeli Palestine. And then he also wrote Injustice, the story of the Holy Land Foundation Five. Ladies and gentlemen and everyone else, welcome to the podcast, Miko Pellett. Hey. How's it going? You know, there is one more song about Generals. Oh, yeah?

I don't know if you guys, it's a long time ago. There's a movie called White Christmas. Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. And there's a general there that they're showing all the love to and stuff like that. So there's a song about a general there. Oh, well, I'm going to have to re-listen to White Christmas. About what a great general he was. Not exactly, you know.

I mean, hey, it's the first song about a general that we've heard. We're both here racking our brains having to do songs about that have the word son in it. So speaking of generals and sons, you wrote this book, The General's Son, and it is, you know,

it is part of a memoir of your life and your father's life and your family history in Palestine. I think my first question would be, like, are you, where are you living now? I live in Washington, D.C. now.

Yes. Yeah, I've been here for a few years now, yeah. Yeah. And before that, Southern California, yeah? Before that, I was in lovely San Diego, yes, for a long time. And for a little bit, as a child, after the 67 war, you lived in West L.A. That's right. That's where I grew up.

A few years. Right, that's right. I was very interested in that part of your life because I was doing, you know, like the street math. Like, oh, how close was he to me while this was happening? 302 Sautel Boulevard. I'll never forget. Oh, look at that. You doxed your past self. Don't forget.

So when you talk about the general son, you are specifically speaking about your father, Maddie Pellett. And his history, I mean, he's a venerated figure in Israel. At the very least, he's one in every time I read a history of, you know, the state of Israel, the founding of. the state. He always is prominently featured as, you know, one of the people, one of the, almost like one of the founders. I can only imagine the kind of reception you get from Zionists and Israelis telling your story and talking about your views about Israel and Palestine. What has been the response? Have you, have you, when is the last time you were back and, and how do people respond to you in general, Israelis specifically? Well, first, thanks for

having me on your show, guys. I love it. This is really cool. Appreciate it. Yeah, and so yeah, you know, I was, you know, it is, in Israeli society, the army is everything it's above god it's like you know so to have a father who was a general especially in those days you know 40 you know he was an officer 48 then he was a general 67 those are like you know gods of the olympus and in between those two what i didn't know he was the military governor of gaza yes and he was a military governor of gaza which is also very interesting um Israel occupied gaza and sinai in 1956 for about six months right until they were forced to unoccupy it.

Until the U.S. said, get the hell out, and they got the hell out. Right. The U.S. has leverage over Israel? Never heard of it. Those were the days, yeah. It's so weird saying those were the days for some, like, even for Reagan, you're like, those were the days. Oh, today, I know, today's horrible, yeah.

Yes. But so, yeah, so then what, what happened was right after the 67 war, which it was really just a horrible assault by Israel against its neighbors. It was a war. It was a massive assault. He began talking about this idea of recognizing Palestinian rights and the Palestinian state, while still in uniform before he even retired. And there was a shift between him and the establishment because nobody in their right mind

thought that the West Bank shouldn't be settled by Jews. right away. And they did settle it by Jews right away. I mean, immediately, you know, the, you know, as soon as the territories were taken, boom, they were bulldozing Palestinian neighborhoods and towns and villages and building settlements. So there was a short period of people just kind of wondering what happened to this guy because he was known as a hawk and he was a general and he was, you know, and suddenly, so then all the way towards, you know, moving forward, he met with Yasser Arafat and he met with Palestinians with the PLO and all that kind of stuff, to the point where he became Rassana Nagrada, even in Jewish spaces in the United States,

although he used to come and speak quite a lot. Well, just to cut in for a second, I told you off air, but it's worth saying to the listeners, one of my first memories as I was being re-educated or, well, it was all, it was simultaneous is because my dad, who was functionally anti-Zionist, though you never used the term, also sent me to a labor Zionist summer camp. So I was getting both at once. And during that time, it was during the time of the first time,

I'm going to have to ask why he did that. It's odd. It was sort of a fan, it doesn't matter. Maybe it was a prank. Yeah. Getting trolled by your own dad for your entire childhood. Well, it did force me to have critical thinking skills, and it forced me to speak up against authority,

and it forced me to hold multiple things at the same time, even though one side of those things was completely untrue. But what I was going to say is that your father's name is one of the first names I remember hearing as I started learning about the quote-unquote other side because my dad was part of a group called Jews for a Just Peace in Vancouver, and they invited Mati to come and speak. And of course, the Jewish Community Center

would not allow them to hold the event there. And it was controversial that he was bringing him, But my dad was trying to say to people, look, if you have this stalwart of the Zionist movement, this military hero telling you that the PLOs should be taken seriously and negotiated with and that these territories, it's not even an interest, Israel's interest to keep them and try to annex them and settle them, then what are you doing? And of course, no one wanted to hear it. But yeah.

Yeah. So I tell the story, and I'm glad you added that because that's kind of, so I was already used to people in my family being, you know, consider traitors and hated and not accepted by the establishment. So, you know, of course, I took it much further. He was a staunch Zionist until his dying day. I reject Zionism completely. But, you know, Israelis don't want to have this conversation. So even when I am there, I rarely meet Israelis.

I mean, with my family and then, or I used to be with my family, and then I would be with my Palestinian, you know, friends and comrades, you know, doing things. right um and so that was it uh i was interviewed a couple of times by israeli news channels for all kinds of programs about you know the hateful israelis that reject israeli and is that the pitch to you they're like we're doing us is that how they pitch it to you what like do they email like hey we're doing this segment about like traders it's called the hate it's called the hateful eight yeah yeah they frame it slightly not quite but Yeah, basically that's what it is.

Wow. And then after the recording, they would go, you know, we agree with you 95%, but why do you have to be so extreme? And I'm like, that 5%, God damn it, you know, what is that 5%? You know, and that's exactly the difference between seeing Palestinians as humans that deserve rights and not. You know what I mean? So all these liberal Israelis and liberal Zionists, I mean, up to a point, it's okay. Why do you have to go?

Right. You know what's interesting about that? that if you were to start with that 5%, if that was your starting block, that 5%, you could not help go all the way to the 100. If you start from anything else, you're going to stop at the 95 mark. And I would think that that 95% estimate on their part was self-flattery. I don't quite think it's true. But still, the point is your politics are premised on an inescapable human value you have

that these people in front of me are as human. as me. And therefore, I have to listen to what happened to them. I have to reckon with my accountability. And I have to imagine a future that redresses it in some way. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's unacceptable. But you're absolutely right. If the Zionist education system is built in a way that that 5% is always missing. Yes. That's the supremacy part. And we don't give up on the supremacy part because, you know, you can't trust anybody and that sort of thing. And that's exactly the 5%. But it was me, I would have these ridiculous conversations with these guys who see themselves as lefties.

You know, the producers, the camera people, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Who see themselves as these really good lefties, these really good peace people. And it was just, you know, it was, it would be comical if it wasn't so tragic. Right. Well, there was a time, I think, you know, where this sort of like liberal Zionism, at least in my life, was something that I almost like. had a tolerance for it because I was like, oh, you know, they'll get there, was always my feeling

about it. And this moment, the last almost two years now, has really put that they'll get there to the test because I have never seen such a staunch commitment to never humanizing Palestinians, to never getting there. And, you know, it's interesting with you, a lot, at least in my life, a lot of the older generation of people of Jews specifically with the way they talk about Israel is almost in this way of like, you know, it was, it didn't used to be this bad, you know, it was such a wonderful, you know, socialist state, anti-racist, you know, built as like a bastion of liberalism. Peace seeking?

Peace seeking. speaking, and you as someone who grew up there at the time in which all of my, you know, elders venerate and like, you know, idealize about, what was your experience? Do you, was Israel, was there the good Israel at that time? Well, it's just one thing about Hasbara that I just remembered. In one of the interviews that I did with Israeli in the introduction, with Israeli TV, the introduction that said that I was the Hasbarah's worst nightmare. Yeah.

Yes. Which is quite an honor, of course. That is, yeah, this is a wonderful honor. That means your bad Hasbara's wet dream. Yes. It's very comfortable. You're very much at home right now. So, you know, growing up in this privilege, on the privileged side of the apartheid,

your privilege, you know, you don't think. Except from time to time, we would go, so like after 67, we would go to the, and we would go to the old city to, you know, take a trip or maybe eat falafel, you know, or some big, and then as a kid, you can't help notice that, like, everything is different, you know, like there's sidewalks and it's just, it seems kind of dusty, or if you go, you know, if you go drive through the West Bank, you see these villages and everything is kind of dusty and seems backward and just not as, you know, nice as what it is on our side. I didn't know why the explanation was always that, well, you know,

the Jews came and they were developed and smart. And so they did this beautiful stuff. And the Arabs are just messed up so they can't, you know, and that's why they live like this. Right. I didn't know at the time that they don't get water, for example. But, and then the same thing driving through Palestinian towns in 1948. I mean, it was the same thing.

You see the same thing. But, and I couldn't, of course, articulate it, but there's no question that you see the apartheid. There's no question. Even in Jerusalem, I grew up in Jerusalem. You know, you cross the side. you cross to East Jerusalem, and everything is completely different. Not only are the people different because they speak a different language and they wear

different clothes and they have a different culture and all that, but also just like they don't have stuff, you know, like there's no sidewalks. Everything is messy. There's no garbage collection. I mean, you know, things that you notice like that and are easy to blame them for. Right. Look how filthy they are. They don't even recycle, you know, that kind of thing.

So that's their material conditions. Yeah. I wonder what Matt is pointing to strikes me as maybe, you tell me what you think about this, talking about the sort of the manner of domination, the manner of supremacy, the etiquette. Your father seems to represent, as you described him in the book, a kind of nobility and a kind of serious, sober-minded, reflective analytical and dry military governor of a refugee population, wanting to do right by them within the very limited bounds that his command structure and his loyalty, his unquestioned loyalty to his own state permit. So you could think of him as sort of

an enlightened British admiral or something in India, you know, who's, who distinguishes himself from the brutes who want to rough up the natives. And that it seemed to me that up until, even up until like the 90s when you know merits was still a factor of some kind people like shulamitloni and yossisarid and people like that there existed a class of israeli either nobles or working uh working parties or whatever who who who imagined a kinder gentler israel even if they couldn't imagine the possibility that there's nothing kind or gentle about a supremacist state. Right. And the truth is, you know, I was raised, of course, to believe that we are the kind

and gentle and the other side are violent and that sort of thing. And then later on, when my dad became more and more involved with the Palestinian issue, we made some mistakes and there's some problems, but inherently we are the right and we are the army and we are the moral people. I didn't realize that was all a lie until later on. But sitting around, you know, family gatherings or all the who's who are, you know, are there at a wedding or whatever. You know, it was clear that we're the good guys and no question. And also growing up, you don't know that the other side doesn't live like this. Unless you take a trip through it for some reason or you walk somewhere, which you rarely do.

I think I mentioned in the book, if we ever went on a trip somewhere and we had to drive through the West Bank, my father always had his AK-47 in the car. I never thought anything of it. yeah he's a general you know i guess he just wants to have his gun there's a thing you know because it's dangerous we're driving around arabs is dangerous so we have to have a gun um so that that was but then but then um it's it's it's obvious that all of these you know sholabit alonin all these all these kind of liberal socialist israeli so to speak that was you know the the the five percent issue was still the issue i mean they

They're okay with it up to a certain point. They're okay with Palestinians having a tiny little enclave that they can call their own, but don't you dare question our right and the legitimacy of the ethnic cleansing that we committed in 1948. And when people talk about the good old days, I have to wonder this entire project, the state of Israel, this is an honest project, it began with a massive crime against humanity. It began, really, with the, when the genocide of the Palestinian people, you know, it was horrific. You know, of course, we learn about it, you know, and my dad was an officer in 1948 and all this, and a young officer, and blah, blah, blah, but they committed horrific war crimes, horrific crimes against humanity. And that was a starting point of the so-called Jewish state.

That was a starting point. So what good old days are they talking about? You know, and then, of course, the apartheid state was established, and the apartheid state was established, and the apartheid. system was was established and there were massacres all the time and there was displacement all the time and nobody cared it was like no big deal you know we're a nice socialist you know friendly and you know and other people bought this i mean joan baez would come in and and perform there and Leonard Cohen came and performed there and all these people that you wouldn't expect maybe another european you know socialist kind of you know performers that had had a consciousness would come

because everybody's Peter on his albums there's tons of Israeli folk songs yeah Harry Belafonte had a whole bunch of people's stuff

and I'm like what the hell were these people thinking how is it that the Palestinian people were completely out of sight

how is it that three years after the Holocaust they allowed this genocide to go on I mean they just defined you know

the crime of genocide and crimes against humanity and all these you know all these legal minds define these laws in order to prevent

another the Holocaust, and nothing, three years went by, and boom, nobody cared. I mean, they allowed this horror to have to take place and the refugees and just all the horrors the Palestinians had to go through. And then the apartheid state, you know, was put in place and everybody heralded as some great achievement. Now I've got Harry Belafonte singing, come Mr. Dalimentali me falafel in my head, or Pamelo or some other three-syllible thing.

What was the breaking point for you, Miko? Like, I mean, I'm sure it wasn't just one breaking point. It was a series of them. And I know that the murder of your niece was a crucial, you know, inflection point for you. Maybe you can speak a little bit about that. But there was that. But what else was it that sort of put you over the edge of having to go much further than your father ever went? And it occurs to me, you know, maybe your father and Shulomi Toloney ran the 95% so that you and Udi.

their offspring could run the next five, you know. But how did that transformation happen for you? So, you know, we, I always say, I think as humans, big changes in our perception of the world, our perspectives, our belief systems, very often, if not always, happen after something terrible that shakes us to the core. And actually yesterday was the day we could remember, the day my uh september 4th was the day she was killed and then i flew over and september 7th was

a funeral but um so that was that was the big shock that was the drive to start looking around and doing things and becoming active i just didn't know what to do yet so just for listeners who don't know the story can give us the the the synopsis of how she died when yeah so this was uh september 4th 1997 and it was a really difficult time there were explosions and bombings all over the place. And this was in Jerusalem in downtown, and three young Palestinians blew themselves up and killed her and a few others and injured, you know, many others. And because she was the granddaughter of Mr. Peace with Palestine, so to speak, I mean, and he

was a general and everything, this was like front page news. Right. And so I remember landing there and driving straight to Jerusalem, and the morning paper was there, and it was right there on the front page of the morning paper. And I got a lot of attention, a lot of press. My sister added to the press and to the interest when she said that what she pointed a finger at Israel as being the cause of her daughter's death. and when being asked about revenge and retaliation, she said no real mother would want to see this happen to any other mother. So now there was even more press and there was more attention and so forth.

I came back to the U.S. and I started looking, who do you talk to? Especially in Southern California, where all people want to do is go to the beach and make money. But eventually I was fortunate enough to find the Palestinian community there and start that journey. But the breaking point, breaking point where I actually saw, the country and realized this whole state, two-state solution is a bunch of, it's a bunch of nonsense. You may remember this. In 2005, the Palestinians began that created the, what they call the non-violent popular resistance, where every Friday in all these different villages and towns, they would have marches after Friday prayer, everybody would get together, and a lot

of foreigners would go there, and Blaine was the village that started it. And there were, like, for a decade, more than a decade, Berlin was a place that any activist had to, you know, check off to say that they were in Berlin and they participated. So it was December 2005 and another, I forget who, but somebody told me about it. So I went there to meet the leaders of this movement in Berlin. And if anybody saw five broken cameras,

these are the guys that are featured in that movie. And we just started walking. and the settlement of Modena-Elit was already mostly built on their land. And these beautiful apartments and condos and just, you know, a regular, you know, middle-class life for Jews only. And half the Jews that were there didn't even speak Hebrew. They're all, they just landed, they just came off the boat, so to speak, or off the plane. And I looked around and I thought,

and this was the time where they were talking about maybe swapping land and that kind of nonsense and I thought this is this is bullshit and the wall had just been built too right and the wall was just being built yeah it was just being built so we were able to cross from belaine from the village

to the settlement now you can't now there's another wall is there and we walked through and we looked at the we talked to the settler I didn't they did they spoke to the settlers and all kinds of stuff and I thought to myself this is this is bullshit this whole two state solution is bullshit they're never going to get I mean they just spent billions

of dollars to develop the city and this is just one out of god knows how many there's no this is nonsense you know the only way to the only resolution of this is one free Palestine with equal rights and then i came back to the u.s and i wrote an article i think it was an electronic intifada or something ali abenma was uh you know i think he published it and um and that was the point of all return from that moment on i said this is nonsense uh this whole zionism thing is is a lie the whole idea that somehow there could be a two-state solution. The Zionist would never allow it because Zionism,

Zionist ideology is a zero-sum game. The land belongs to the Jewish people. Israel is just a caretaker. Right. Land, but that's why 98% of the land, you're not allowed to lease or sell to anyone but Jews. Right. And so, you know, and then my thinking began developing.

But that was the moment that I said, that's it, this two-state solution, this whole Zionism is, and why do we have to be afraid? of these people. Why can't we just, why can't we just live? You know, I mean, fine, we came. We took their land. We exiled them. Maybe we can find a way to, you know, allow the refugees to return and, you know, compensate for some of this. But why, I mean, look at these, you know, why can't we just live, you know, who could wish for better neighbors than Palestinians? Yeah. You know, you know, what's interesting is, you know, you're talking about the 5%, you know, this like,

oh, I agree with you 95%, but then that five percent. But then that five percent there's something in there and it's uh you just got me thinking about the the fact that so many people who have that you know the 95 percent are and are missing the 5 percent after october 7 uh i noticed and i'm sure you did too the absolute collapse of the even the idea of the israeli left um all of the sudden this term so sobering up started being spread around. And I was reminded of that because of what happened to you and to your niece, you know, after she was killed, almost a concerted attempt by putting it on the front page

to say, you see, you see why we can't have peace with these people. And it's been, you know, an interesting couple of years for me as someone who was, you know, Obviously, an outsider has never lived in Israel. For you, what have you seen that can possibly explain why, it seems, Israeli society has gone from wanting to put on a good face for the West and for the international community to saying, I don't care anymore about the international community. we're going to do this genocide in broad daylight and you're going to like it. Like, was, do you recognize that when you see that, or is this, is this strange to you? Are you shocked by what you're seeing Israelis openly gloating about, even the ones, you know, who were purported, you know, leftists or, you know, peace knicks or whatever? The process you described began in the year 2000.

when you know there was this camp david uh summit with iraq and clinton and uh as to arrafat and when they came out everybody said yeah arrafat does the one peace we the palestinians and that was the bulk of those liberal israelis the you know the peace movement so to speak that was it they they chose zionism over over reconciliation in peace and that was it uh and that was the big bulk of them. And, you know, they, you know, they had a moment of awakening and they realized this whole piece of Palestinians was nonsense, exactly like you described. And then, of course, you're right. Of those who remained, October 7, just that was it. And you hear this a lot in the Hebrew news and the news programs and interviews with people who said, ah, yes, I used to be a

lefty and I used to be a sneak and I used to protest for peace but now you know I was a fool I can't believe I did that in those days blah blah blah but yeah and and and I'm not shocked because it I never believed those I mean from a certain point I stopped believing those people anyway right you know because I could recognize that they were this is this is all this it's a facade it's this facade to show like you said it could be a better kinder gentler Israel like the one that was before these religious settlers came and before da-da-da-da-da, completely ignoring the fact that my parents' generation were the same as the settlers today, except they didn't know the Amulka.

They were Zionists, you know, they had a different religion. Yes. There was also a fair amount of racism, too, on the part of the Tel Aviv liberal Zionist lap, which is to say, you know, these unwashed Mizrachim with their conservative politics or whatever, we have the cosmopolitan view. We're enlightened. Liberal Zionists are like a more extreme version of Phil Oaks's characterization of the American liberal. And he said, you know, this curious specimen, the liberal, you know, 5 degrees or 10 degrees to the left of center at the best of times, 10 degrees to the right of center when it affects them personally.

Well, in the case of Israeli, you know, or just liberal Zionists in general, they're like dead center at the best of times and about 40 degrees to the right of center. when it affects them personally, which is to say when it affects their prejudices and their Zionism and their commitment to that above all. And the strength of the Zionists has always been from going back to the early 20th century that even though they had divisions, they had revisionists and socialists and religious

and all the different, when it came to the issue of the land, the state, the Arabs, everyone was lined up beyond the same banner. It all lined up. And this is we're seeing, this now as again. And that was their strength. And that's why, you know, within 50 years, they managed to have a state, even though Jews were a minority. And I mean, made absolutely no sense. They got a, they had a state in Palestine. All these European settlers came to Palestine

and at a state. But I think that is there still their strength is that regardless of the differences on certain issues, we align with, you know, with Zionism 100%. And there's no room for negotiations. This is it. It's ours and that's that. And the Arabs just need to surrender, die, or leave. Well, speaking of negotiations and imaginations of a future, you know, we've had a variety of guests on this show who have a variety of views on what, A, should happen, and B, I mean, everyone agrees the genocide needs to stop and the Israeli regime needs to be transformed in some way. But in terms of the final vision of it, the configuration, people sometimes differ.

But what I'm curious about is your sense of what is the most likely path to that just future. Do you foresee an internal collapse of Israeli society? Do you foresee before that will ever happen a collapse of U.S. empire such that Israel can't sustain it? Like, what is your most hopeful pathway for getting to a free Palestine from the river to the sea with equal rights for all and liberation and justice for the Palestinians? I think to begin with, we have to realize that anybody who is suddenly appalled by what's happening in Gaza, you know, we're 77 years too late. There's a direct link between 1948 and what is that at 2023. There's a direct link. Israelis, the Zionists have always said that this is what they were going to do.

They did it perhaps not quite as horrible as it's taking place now in the Gaza death camp. But they were very clear that this was going to happen. I mean, there was no other path for Zionism other than what we're seeing now. And for reasons beyond understanding, they were allowed to get away with it. I mean, establishing the apartheid state in Palestine in 1948 was a colossal war crime and they did it over a much huger swath of territory i'm sorry got it did they did they they committed that crime over a much larger swath of territory gaza is tiny right they managed to ethnically cleanse yes yeah i mean they got about a million

people yeah and so and so um and so so that's where it started so now people are saying oh my god Oh, my God, oh, my God. Where were you the last 77 years? This is nothing new. And they never hid that this was their objective. Right. You know, they threw, they, they herded all these Palestinians from mostly Southern Palestine into a concentration camp in the early 50s.

And that's, and they just let it, and the whole world is just, you know, I don't know, let them get away with it. And massacres in Gaza began in the, in the 1950s, too. It didn't start in 2023. So that's the first part. I think that people need to read the second thing is that you're not going to stop the genocide you're not going to be able to bring food to people in gaza stop the starvation we will not be able to release the political prisoners who are now dying in prisons of starvation and so forth

because the reality in the prisons now is so severe um i just met this woman at the people's conference in detroit and her husband's been in jail for about six months he was just he was on his way out to go to Jordan. They picked him up, and four months, he hasn't heard from him. He lost 40 pounds. That's the reality now. So anyway, none of these issues on its own can be resolved. None of them.

We cannot feed children in Gaza. Now, obviously, this absurd idea that people in Gaza need food to be shipped from overseas and then waiting for Israel to give them permission to come in from Egypt, Israel is committing genocide, why would they allow food and medicine in? It's cheaper for people to die from infections and from starvation than using a bullet to kill them, right? So this whole absurd reality is because people are holding on to this idea that Israel has a right to exist. That's the problem. Israel is the obstacle to stability.

It's the obstacle to peace. It's the obstacle to liberation. It has caused wreaked havoc on the entire, you know, Western Asia. I mean, the wars that they started, the massacres they committed, the massive refugee issue. Those all because of that. So it's time to get rid of it. It's time to dismantle it. How we do it is, of course, the challenge because it is very strong.

But I think that the model we should follow. is to demand people around the world. People demand their governments, impose sanctions, stop trade, closed diplomatic missions, call it their ambassadors. You know, that is the model that works. You know, kick Israel out of the Olympics, of the World Cup, and on and on and on, any space, any kind of space, international space where they are, until now, being very welcome.

if you really want to drive Israelis crazy and then it will drive is crazy exactly i'm saying eurovision is the key i think eurovision they cannot count and it's being cut out of eurovision exactly exactly or uefa yeah all these things yeah it's drive that would drive them absolutely nuts and that is what it was going to bring them down how we get from here to there well world opinion is shifting even here in the u.s you know all these polls are showing that opinions are shifting um and that's the model and then the apartheid

regime, I believe, will collapse and give way to a free, to a liberated Palestine with equal rights. But I think it's important to also note that October 7, what the Palestinians were able to do on October 7, these fighters that came from one of the poorest, hungriest, most surveilled, most oppressed regions in the world, they were able, for the first time and without precedent to completely paralyze the apartheid state to shock them and paralyze them

in a way that has never been done before and they still have not recovered. Yeah, I mean, it was a humiliation that I think as soon as it was happening and I'd like to hear how you felt on October 7th, as soon as it was happening, it felt to me like this level

of penetration by the people of Gaza this humiliation would lead to a reprisal that I almost it's like I knew immediately that this was going to be

the reason that they were going to do everything they were going to use this as justification for every crime imaginable and I'm wondering if you felt the same same way just based on the humiliation alone. And if I could piggyback on that, how does that Old Testament level reprisal

cohere with what you said about the state being paralyzed? Because from a certain point of view, they've been very mobilized and they've been very able to carry, you know, they've been anything but immobile. So what do you mean by paralysis? And to Matt's question, you know, what was your feeling at the time? Well, so, so I mean, the response is obviously there response of a gangster who are a bully who's been humiliated. You find the weakest, the weakest victim, and you take it all out on them. And that's exactly what they did. Now, it took the military a while to mobilize. It took them a while to mobilize. They had no idea what was going on. They had to call reservists. They, you know, everybody was at home sleeping. I mean, it took a while. So Israelis,

you know, and I was still on speaking terms with my family, they were like scared and everybody had to have a gun. What if they come up to Jerusalem and where are they? And it's, and it's At the same time, Israelis were running away from the north because the Lebanese forces the Hezbollah was shooting rockets at them. It was complete chaos. The media didn't know what was going on. The military didn't know what was going on. The police was not functioning.

The politicians weren't, the government wasn't functioning. And it took several weeks before they were able to get out grip on what was going on. But they have the hardware, so that's not a problem. To go in there and bomb the hell out of Gaza, that's easy. Within a few hours, you could start doing that. And that's exactly what they did. So that part is, it doesn't take a lot to do that. You don't need a lot to do that.

You know, the order is there, and everybody is happy to go there and just bomb the hell out of whatever moves in and around Gaza. And that's exactly what they did. But the country is not functioning. It's not functioning. People are terrified. The settlers from the Galilee in the north and from the Kiputin, and the settlements around Gaza still have not returned.

They've not been rebuilt. They're complaining. They're in the country is completely, whatever there was of a thing called Israeli society, which is really a patchwork of different groups with Scotch tape around them. The Scotch tape came off. That's what happened. The statue came up and everybody's at everybody's throats. The ultra-Orthodox and the non-Orthodox and the these and that and the so-called liberals

who don't want to stop the genocide, they just want to pause it to allow the hostages to come back. All that kind of stuff. It is completely dysfunctional. And the rhetoric, the rhetoric is insane. People are at each other's throats in the Knesset. They're at each other's throats in the media. It's insanity. And they have not recovered.

And plus, on top of that, the Yemeni forces closing the Babelwanda straits, completely shut down the Port of Elat. The Portovalat used to bring 150, 200,000 cars a year. It's bankrupt. It's closed. Nothing is going through. That's a huge blow to the economy. So all of these things, there's no way to recover from it.

On top of that, reservists are at their wits end because they're in there all the time because I don't know, you know. And now they've mobilized another 100,000 reservists to go in. So it's complete chaos. There was a crazy headline. I forget, was it the Washington Post? It wasn't a terrible article, but the headline was something like, IDF, reservist fatigue complicates Israel's plans to empty Gaza

city. Right, right. You have a logistical problem, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. People are tired. It's like they were talking about the removal of two million Palestinians to South Sudan. Right, yeah. It's a plan. People are discussing it. There are some human rights concerns.

Right, yeah, yeah. Some people have questions. Some people have questions about the emptying of cities. They're going to circle back. Yeah. Yeah, let's put a pin in this. But I mean, so the place is dysfunctional. People are, it's just, they've really, they've really, October 7th was a shock they're never going to recover from.

And now, world opinion is shifting. And we see some countries already talking about ending diplomatic relations and this and that. I mean, Colombia announced, they announced a while ago. I guess now they're actually doing it. They're going to stop the coal shipments. They're Israel's number one coal supplier. That's huge. I don't know what Columbia is going to do with all that coal.

I mean, they can't eat it. They have to sell it to someone. They've got jobs, you know, people working in the coal mines. I mean, I don't know how they're going to negotiate all that. But it's a braised dance. Hopefully they're really going to do it. So that's the path, you know. I mean, I always tell the story in the Tokyo Olympics, the last Olympics in Tokyo,

there was an Algerian judo practitioner. And he was supposed to compete against the member of the Israeli team, and he refused. Right. His name escapes him right now. I know his name. And he was kicked out of the Olympics. He was kicked out of the World Judo Federation. His career was over, right?

You know, somebody's got to work to get to the Olympics, right? Right. I said, no, I'm not going to do this. So, of course, we all see him as a hero, and he was received as Fatih Noreen. His name was Fatah Doreen. But that's not his job. He shouldn't give up his career. the Olympic Committee should not allow the apartheid team to participate.

That's the key issue. That's what needs to happen. That's what we should all be pushing for. And, you know, if we all, you know, embrace our role as liberators, and we have to embrace the role, Palestinians in Palestine are like prisoners in a maximum security prison. There's only so much they can do. We need to be there to support them. in their fight for liberation.

We need to take up that mantle and we need to do everything we can and then some to end it as quickly as possible. This entire Zionist project is a dark chapter in the long history of Palestine. It's a regime that has implanted itself and it's got to go. The country is Palestine.

Israel is a regime. It's a dark chapter in this very long and really glorious history of Palestine. But it's got to quickly end. We have to end it because people are dying and they're going to keep dying as long as this regime exists. And you think the isolation

will quicken that, not just in terms of like, I mean obviously governments isolating them would be a huge factor, but cultural isolation, let's say. You know, things like the not allowing them in the Olympics or Eurovision

or whatnot. You know, not going to films that they release or whatnot. Do you think that would hasten the collapse or is there part of you? Because for me, I have this one nagging worry, which is that part of the Hasbara has been, or at least that I grew up with, has been everybody hates you. And so whenever there are, you know, people speaking out against BDS, I always hear them coming from this place of like, well, I expect the world to hate me. So it's like it almost like it gets them to dig their heels in deeper. But hating and excluding

are two different things, Matt. True, true. No, of course. I just, uh, my course they'll spin Hasbara in response to it. But I, I guess what I'm asking is, is, um, what do you feel that, uh, how much do you feel that Israelis, you know, individuals in Israel rely on the acceptance of the people in the West? Like what, in fact, what would hurt more the rejection by the general populace of, let's say, the United States or specifically the Jewish community of the United States? What do you think, how would an Israeli citizen react to it? Well, I think, I think all of the the above is important. You have to do all of the above. You know, the acceptance is like the lifeline for Israelis. Not to be accepted, not to be liked is like is the worst punishment.

Okay. Great. Certainly if the Jewish community steps up in a big way, and many Jewish people have, especially younger Jewish people, that would be a blow, of course, to everyone. If they can't, if they can't participate in the Olympics, if they can't have a team with the Israeli flag, that is would be devastating. That would be absolutely devastating. So all of these things have to happen at the same time. Now, looking at Israel's record over the last, you know, since it was established, I don't see how anybody could not hate it. Right. Yeah. And what's a surprise? And the fact that, you know, Israeli people say, oh, the government is different than the people. No, Israeli's vote

in very high numbers. You look at the makeup of the Israeli Knesset, and what's there to like? and who voted them in I mean millions of Israelis voted them in so they represent all these policies all these horrors that we're seeing represent the will of the people yeah how could you not hate how could you not hate it doesn't mean you're well you know

so it's it's kind of it's really funny to say oh you know hate of course you hate Israel how could you not hate Israel it's a horrible regime speaking of hating Israel I have like three questions I'm trying to prioritize them because I know we don't have much time let me start with this one of the things I was struck by in the early parts of your book, you do a great job of not telegraphing

where you end up politically. And it seems like a conscious decision. You really don't give short shrift to your early Zionism and to your love of the place. And especially you speak about your love of Hebraic culture and your pride in it and the poetic tradition and the liturgical tradition and all of this. Do you still, where do you hold those things in your heart now? Is it possible to hold on to, I don't know, Bialik or even, you know, more ancient sources of Hebrew culture, the language, the connection to that place, which long predates Zionism? How do you relate to that now? That's a very interesting question. I struggle with it.

So, you know, I don't know if you had Susan Abelhoa on your show, but, you know, she's a friend. and she was asked by my publisher to do a conversation with me in New York after the book came out. So she started to read the book, and then she called the publisher. She said, screw this. I'm not, I don't want to read this book. This is, you know, I don't want to meet this guy, and I don't want to read this book. And then, so, Helen, my publisher said, read to the end. And then, you know, and then she, we did the event in New York, and we became friends and so on.

And then she wrote a review. and she describes those feelings. And I hear this from many Palestinians. The first half of the book is just painful. And honestly, I can't read it now. I find it painful, you know, just the way it was how convincing my love for Zionism was. But, you know, Israeli culture is the culture that I was raised on. And so from time to time, you know, and I'm very angry at Israeli performers and all those who didn't speak up.

and most of them don't and didn't. But there's some things that I still like to hear from time to time. So I'll kind of, you know, in my own dark, quiet moment, listen to a song or read a poem or something. But in terms of the larger kind of Jewish identity, I'm actually working on a book now about the anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox Jews. And it's a much bigger phenomenon. It's a much larger community than I ever imagined.

And I've been in contact with a community up in New York, in London, and in Jerusalem. And they're all, you know, connected. The Williamsburg-Sept-Mars? Yes, those guys. They're my neighbors. There's a few others, yes, exactly. And I visited them, and I did Shabbas with them, and I've interviewed them, and, you know, whenever they come to protest. They come here, actually.

Last time, the big protests here in D.C., there was about 100 of them, and they don't have a place to pray. They don't have a place to put their stuff. So they were here. And I walked in Saturday morning and it was like walking into an ultra-Orthodox, you know, Shula, I was like, whoa, what is going on here? You know, but I have a lot of respect for them because they saw what I took me a very long time to see in the very beginning. Yeah. You know, the very first thing that was written by rabbis against Zionism and it was a warning to Jews was in the year 1900. They said this idea of a state, a Medina, as they say, a Medina, a Jew state, will bring violence to the Holy Land, ruin our good relations with the Arabs and the Muslims, and cast doubt as

to the loyalty of Jews who are good citizens around the world. And so to that, you know, and it was very interesting to go to services. I mean, I'm not a religious person. I've never been to an ultra-orthodox synagogue. First of all, it's hours and hours and hours and hours and never ends. It's a slog. But even though I could read the text, I have no idea what they're saying because the way they pronounce the Loshankodish, the holy language, is not modern Yrit. To them, modern Yvrit is, you know, it's part of Zionism. So, yeah, so I have, you know, I have, on the issue of the Israeli stuff, I sometimes find myself kind of longing to hear a song or a particular singer that I liked, and I will do that. And then, you know, then I'll remember why I hate them.

I'm with you. I've got my little collection, a tiny little collection. Yeah, I've got Shoshana Damari. I've got Yehidi Ravids, you know. See, okay, so that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. But then kind of the pre-Zionist or the non-Zionist, like, I don't know if you guys have ever read JJ Singer?

No. He's the brother, he's the older brother of Bacheves. Oh, Bishavas. Oh, yeah. He was his older brother and he was the better writer, but he died when he died young. Wow. And he wrote incredible, incredible. works, novels.

And it's mostly kind of between the two world wars, more or less. That's kind of the period in Eastern. In Hebrew or Yiddish? He wrote in Yiddish. Yeah, just like his brother. Yeah, he wrote in Yiddish. But there's translations. And a lot of the books are, I mean, all the books are out of print,

so you have to find, you know, used ones. Phenomenal stuff. Incredible writing, you know. Wow. And B'Shea Wingsinger himself would say, said, you know, that his brother was the greater writer of the two. And he was an the inspiration. So I mean, that sort of thing, you know, kind of the non-Zionist or anti-Zionist culture that existed among secular Jews was fascinating. I mean, it's a history to be proud of,

of course. Yeah. I kind of have a similar thing. I mean, just in terms of, I just thank God sometimes that Gershwin died in 38, you know, just because like he did, you know, before the establishment of Israel. Not that I know where. where he stood on, you know, establishing a state in Palestine, but just like there's a few Jews in entertainment and in history who didn't, you know, have a chance to become Zionists and I can enjoy it and not have this like dark thing hanging over me.

Matt's version of the baby Hitler conundrum is if you had a time machine, would you go back and kill your Jewish cultural heroes before they become Zionists? I don't know if you guys know this. You know the song Dona Donna, that was being made famous. You know, that was written by two Jewish lyrics and the music in Yiddish originally. Yes, doyna, doina. Yeah.

And so, I mean, there's a lot to, there's a lot of great stuff that happened by secular, you know, very progressive. Yeah, and then there's stuff that happened by Eastern European, like, say, partisan fighters that's been co-opted by, like, Elie Adelaide by, who's it, Hanasenish, you know. Right, right, right. anyway so so you know and that but and again here in this country because zionism came killed all of that and took over yeah that's why it doesn't exist anymore there is no more yiddish culture in this country sadly because the zionists took over evrit became the new thing and you know and then you end up going to a zionist camp well the first thing matt and i ever discussed on this show together was the how zionism kills irony and how why israeli comedy is so

god-awful because all they have is sarcasm. They have a tone of voice. They don't have a, they don't have the sight to see contradictions and hypocrisies because their entire existence depends on not seeing them. And a lot of racist, a lot of Israeli comedy is racism against Arab Jews. Yes, and it's always presented.

I think this is the main cultural separation between, you know, kind of this history of Jewish, comedy and Yiddish, you know, like, irony. And Israeli, you know, cruelty is that they, they don't understand. I've said this before, but it's like they think that gallows humor is when the hangman does a joke because they have always been the hangman. They've never been in the gallows. And they just don't understand when you are supreme, you're just doing cruelty. It's not, it's, there's no irony, it's not funny to anyone else, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are approaching the agreed

upon cutoff point. I wonder if I could ask you two kind of parallel questions of that both seem important to me. Number one, under your name, we have the Palestine House of Freedom, Washington, D.C., and you mentioned it as a place where you hosted the Satmarium. Can you tell us what, you know, PHF is and where you guys are at and what you're working on? And number two, and you can answer these in any order. I mean, this is an impossible question to answer, but if you're willing to go there, what do you think Mati Pelled would say about Israel, Zionism, and the future, if he could see what Israel has become since 2023? I'll start with the second one, because it's harder. There's no way of knowing, obviously, but

my, if we look at his trajectory and the actions that he took, even as a Zionist, in deeply, deeply analyzing and being critical of the Zionist state, I can't imagine that he would not call for a single democracy with equal rights. In his whole life, he rejected it. That's why he thought the two-state solution was so important, because he said if anything else would be just a horrible bloodbath. But seeing what is happening now and knowing, you know, he did a lot of, another thing that Susan Abelho wrote about my book

is that my father is an Israeli that the Palestinians don't know whether they should love or hate. Because he did a lot for Palestinians, like individually, like he would help, you know, somebody would approach him, you know, they took my land or they arrested my son or that kind of thing. And he became a scholar of Arabic literature. And he came a lot of Arabic literature, yes, and so on. So he did a lot, and he, unlike his, you know, the people around him and around us, he actually liked Arab culture. He liked being part of the Arab world, you know.

He didn't look down at it. He didn't hate it. And so I think he would have realized that there's only one way to go, and that's to work as hard as we can to establish a real free Palestine of legal rights. So that's the second question. The first one is, so Palestine has a freedom. So the idea is something that I've been talking to people, my comrades in Palestine mostly, and people here in the U.S.

There was no space for Palestine in Washington, D.C. There's no Palestinian flag anywhere. You know, and this is a city where every flag under the sun, all the embassies, and so on. So the idea, first of all, was to establish, you know, a nonprofit, but then to find a place that would be high-profile, profile with a name Palestine and the Palestinian flag would be right in your face. Yeah.

As opposed to all these NGOs that exist here that are like in somebody's basement or they don't highlight the name Palestine, you know, that kind of thing. And we landed this fantastic space here on Capitol Hill, which is a few blocks from the capital on Pennsylvania Avenue. So we have a Palestinian flag on the building, the name Palestine House of Freedom. You can't miss it. And we have this big space with offices and then a big courtyard, again, with another big flag where we hold events. And so the first step was to create it, then to establish it as a space which is unapologetically Palestine.

Our mission is as a nonprofit to educate education. And so we're working on curricula. We have a lot of social media stuff. And we have events, panels, movie screenings, other organizations are using the space, other Palestine-related or, you know, social justice groups use the space here because we are unapologetically for liberation, not just Palestinian liberation, you know, other liberation movements as well, but we are unapologetically anti-Zionist and pro-liberation of Palestine. We don't talk about peace, we don't talk about dialogue, we talk about the liberation of Palestine, we talk about justice, talk about the right of return, and highlighting those things. things. And so that's, you know, we have events here all the time, especially, you know, through the summer and between the summer and the end of the year. And more and more people are coming to recognize that we're here and using the space and so forth. And we're working

on a curriculum that we want to present hopefully before the end of the year to demonstrate and give people the tools to explain that the peaceful, the piece, the piece, the stability, the humanity, the human rights that we all talk about are possible in Palestine. Even the Bita-Hun. Even the Bita-Hun, yes, exactly. Security. Security for Palestinian people, that can all be a reality. The problem is everybody's invested in the obstacle.

Everybody's invested in the right of the obstacle to exist. We need to remove the apartheid state because that's the obstacle. That's the source of instability and suffering and refugees. and death and destruction in the entire region, not only in Palestine. That's it. It's that 5%, you know. Well, you've just given me, that's great, because I find, quote, unquote,

the crumbling Zionist settler colonial entity to be a bit cumbersome. I'm just going to call it the obstacle from now on. The obstacle, yeah, they're the obstacle. I love it. So to give people the tools to talk to their, you know, their Jewish neighbor or their Jewish son-in-law, or whoever it is they're afraid to talk to, and even just activists who need more, you know,

to feel secure and safe and able. to talk about Palestine freely. So we're working on a curriculum that, like I said, we'll create five or six classes from by the end of the year, I hope. So, yeah, so that's the mission, and that's where we are. And I don't know if you guys know about the people's forum that took place, the conference in Detroit. Oh, yeah, we know.

That's this kind of space that this is. That's the message that is reflected here as well. That's the message. It's 100% liberation, unapologetically, for Palestinians. liberation for Palestinian rights. And it's been going great. I mean, we moved into the space a little over a year ago.

And we're just go, go, go, go, go. It's really fantastic. That's fantastic. Well, we're going to make sure that we have links to not just the Palestine House of Freedom, but also to your books available for purchase right now.

Yeah, yeah. truly thank you for coming on the show and talking to us it's you're you know you're a fascinating person and we'd love to have you back you know sure happy to do it anytime guys it's my pleasure absolutely yeah cool very thanks so much you i'll see you in new york soon yes looking forward to it can't wait to meet you in person and everyone stick around because we'll be right back we're back as bad as barra the world's most moral podcast uh thank you to miko who uh was fantastic and man what a good interview that was great wow what a great what a great guest what a great interview guest well thank you very much it's jimmy from south park we can do that because we're both

old he sure became an anti-sionist very much yeah have you seen this have you heard about this? Timmy! So I like how we're getting this all out as soon as Miko leaves were just like, let's... I'm sorry, last night or two nights ago, I rewatched Terrence and Philip behind the blow the episode where the kids have to go to Canada to get Philip to play the Earth Day thing. Yeah. And the thing they do, like, you know, like, there's a maxim in a lot of things, including

comedy where you have to know where to quit, quit while you're ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the things South Park does incredibly well is not quitting while they're ahead. No, they make it funny again. They make it, no, they just keep going. So there's this scene where, like, Philip is doing Hamlet, Shakespeare in Canada. Yes. And they basically do almost the entire final scene of Hamlet.

Yeah, yeah. At top speed, because that's how Canadians speak in the show. Yeah, and with Buddy, isn't Venom, buddy. Yeah, Betty, and gay, and friend. And they just keep going for two straight minutes of Shakespeare. It's so funny. It's fucking hysterical. It kills me every time.

And there is, having seen a lot of Shakespeare in Canada, having done Shakespeare in Canada, we don't quite sound like that, but there's something about it that's right. Yeah, they've like unlocked some sort of truth about Canadians that we still don't understand why it's right. Good night, sweet prince. And flights of angels sing me to by that rest, guy. Yeah. good um so that was a great interview and now we need to talk about what's going on with b b he you know is a baby listen b b is scaled shit's going on in israel that uh you know for him i think for the first

time ever in like the last couple of years i do feel like he feels He's feeling the heat. The actual heat. I feel like there were, you know, everyone from, you know, the far right to these Zionist, liberal Zionist, like, lefties, quote unquote, were all walking in lockstep behind him, you know, because they had sobered up and decided, well, you know, genocide can be done in a woke way. But now with people in the streets and actually protesting, you know, for various reasons, but still protesting this government, he actually is feeling the heat. And so he's doing a bunch of, you know, Western-facing stuff, but he's also doing stuff like, you know, press conferences for Israelis as well.

And he did one. Before you go into that, I just want to just, you know, let me do the John Stewart thing. Hey, Israelis, join me at camera four, you know? Yeah, yeah. Just come a little closer. Okay, I want to say this here. It's really cool that you oppose Netanyahu. And quite frankly, I don't care why.

You're probably, you know, like as Miko said, you're probably not ready for that 5%. I'm not going to convince you if you don't see Palestinians as he'll me. But just do me a fucking favor, okay? While you oppose him and whatever, next time someone calls you for an opinion poll, just fucking don't agree with his entire fucking policy in Gaza.

Yeah, yeah. Because I can't square those two things. If you want to undermine him, then start dissenting from what he does, rather than being like, no, we love it. We just hate the guy. Yeah. Like, make up your fucking mind.

If you hate the guy, you gain nothing. I mean, I understand you do like the genocide. I get that. Yeah. Enjoy it. But if you hate the guy. This isn't high school. It's not a popularity contest.

Right. At least work towards a purpose of, you know, kicking them out and putting in your other most favorite genocidal freak, you know? But like, just do that. At the very least, tell the opinion people, no, and I'm against killing people. Show that you've lost confidence in the army. Show that you don't agree with their plans or their tactics. Yes. Otherwise, you are unhelpful at, I don't know, bringing down the very government that you claim to oppose.

Help us help you so that we can then destroy. you. Yes, exactly. Please, help us end you. God ends those who help themselves. That's right. Oh, you give a man a fish. And he'll do something called gefilted to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But teach a man to fish and he'll eat it normal. I'm sorry. But yes, so the, so yeah, here's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu talking to his people. In a democracy, protest is a legitimate thing. But what is happening at the funded, organized political protests against the government has crossed every line. They are vandalizing property, blocking roads, making millions of citizens miserable. Okay, I'm sorry, I really love the obvious.

protesting is great but you guys are are disrupting stuff you know you're like you're doing vandalism you're you're you're you're blocking roads I when I say protest what I mean is uh sit and stew inside of your house yeah could you please we don't mean you know we're not talking about radical things like civil disobedience no what part of civil don't you understand exactly be nice about it And if you refuse to be civil, we'll treat you like a Palestinian civilian. I'm talking about giving a slight sassy attitude to the next traffic cop who stops you. Right. Or just watching a different Israeli news program or something, you know?

Yeah. You have a remote control. You can easily flip from 12 to 14 or 14 to 12 as the case may be. You have options. It depends on how you feel back and forth, back and forth, in and out forever. Here we go. Chasing after public officials and their children to kindergarten in schools. They threaten daily to kill me, the prime minister and my family.

They are also involved in arson. They said they would surround my house, the prime minister's house. He's calling out arson Ostrovsky by name? Different guy. They said they would surround my house, the prime minister's house, with a ring of fire, just like fascist militias. So they set fire on Harlot Street right next to the house. This fire also burned a car.

The car belongs to a captain in the reserve's Yoav Berishi, who is the grandson of Yaakov Nehman. I'm sorry. It's the worst vice principal guilt trip I've ever seen. I know, but I also am, I have some questions about what happened here. Wait, you're saying that they're burning houses down around you in order to make a ring of fire?

Like, this is, This does not hold what. It's not past the smell test. I don't believe that they were like, all right, in order to do this one act of arson, we got to do nine acts of arson. I just don't know. You know, that seems fake but okay.

A wonderful finance minister and justice minister in the state of Israel. This year, Yoav served about 260 days. His third round, both in Gaza, and in Lebanon. He serves as an officer in the armored reconnaissance unit and he has three daughters.

And you burned his car. You burned it. Well, they burned the car and his wife cannot take the children so they volunteer to fund the purchase of a new car. Don't do us any favors. Don't make us laugh.

You talk about democracy. You speak and behave. Hold on, hold on. The protesters volunteer? No, stop doing that. Don't volunteer to buy a new car. Camera four. Yeah, Israelis, when you commit acts of arson or civil disobedience, don't then crowd fund for them to get a new sedan, okay?

Have the courage of your convictions, even if it goes farther than you thought, show no mercy, show no apology. What are you doing? Exactly. That was great. I love it. Keep... There we go. What is happening here is simple. There is no enforcement. And when there is no enforcement, there is escalation. Indeed, they started by breaking through barriers,

then attempted to breach fences, and then they shot flares that almost set my house on fire. To death, next to my house. And now they are making a ring of fire. Where is the enforcement? It does not exist. There is no selective enforcement. enforcement here. There is no enforcement at all. And this must change. This is what I demand from law enforcement agencies. This is what the people of Israel demand to maintain democracy here.

Damn, man. Can you imagine how, like, scary it must be to have your house almost get destroyed? You know what I mean? To have fires breaking out all around you? All around you. I mean, cars burning up. I can't I hope the protesters at least knocked on the roof first Yeah Send him a pamphlet Yeah send a pamphlet

Give a call You know Call them up Say hey We're going to do this And we're going to burn your family alive If you don't run You know

Tell him you give him evacuation orders To the Yes You know the West bathroom Yeah The West bathroom Oh man But yeah

That is You know It is Listen, I'm I'm like cautiously optimistic. I'm cautiously encouraged by you know, these, any acts that are happening against

this government, especially you know, Netanyahu. Well, they have to feel the pain. Yes, they have to feel the heat. He can tell he's feeling the pain. You can actually tell, first of all, shout out to the fucking AI dubbing. That was uncannily his voice.

I hate it. It's terrible how good it is. Yes, I don't. don't like how good AI can be. It's going to... It really is awful. It's going to destroy our... Yes.

He's just a ruthless... I don't... He doesn't advocate vocally for it, but he just does really good AI shit that makes me want to... I mean, listen, it's like we need to get this translated, and now they have an app for it. And to be honest, you know, if AI is going to be used for anything, it being used for that is, I think, a great use of it.

I just hate that they're going to be able to make videos of me saying all of the things that Adam keeps writing that I'm saying. Look, look, do you want to learn Mandarin Chinese or do you want to be able to, you know, just put out a video in English hailing our new rulers and then have it easily translated into the new colonial language of our land?

But what I was going to say is, I mean, you can tell them. And if I were going to learn, I would learn Gondonois, Cantonese. okay got it yeah well it doesn't have so much I hope there were some listeners who know Cantonese and are giving me a round of applause how do you say four out of ten in Cantonese I don't know I only know how to say go no what does it mean

Cantonese cantonese wow that's meta that's like lingual inception no big deal I was going to say that you know that this is getting to Netanyahu because on the heels of that rather sweaty quite sweaty desk you know video desk piece he actually put out a music video to go with it and we have a clip from it

we'll play the entire song at the end but we were only able to get at this point a clip of half of the music video that he released himself here it is War is my favorite thing It excites my ding-a-ling But now these cowards and liars They've put me in a ring of

He used the phrase twice Help me out of this burning ring of fire You traitors belong behind barbed wire And it burns my ass This ring of fire This ring of fire Come on everyone You're just playing into Amalek's hands here

Really fantastic work by Benjamin Netanyahu excellent yeah truly beautiful i mean you know his producer adam did a great job on that producer adam yeah oh man yeah that is and shout out to netting yahoo for uh including a chuck berry reference in there his dingling you know that's right yeah i want you to play with my dingling yeah um but yeah he is uh he's done a few more things he did one recently uh another like you know has barra drop uh for you know the west in which he interviewed uh brandum brandon uh he who is like a uh he's a black conservative uh radio host essentially like his his whole thing is like i'm what if a black guy was conservative which is um i mean it's a brand um and he had

him on exactly original yeah definitely not an original brand but but uh hey Listen, we've all done media in which we are traitors to our people. So, you know, game recognized game. And I guess, and I guess in fairness, I mean, the black conservatives have never really occupied a very influential position. I mean, Supreme Court, what the fuck is that? Yeah. Fucking talk radio. That's where you're going to influence people.

They've never been influencers. That's right. That's where the money is. But yeah, he went on to. In America. In America, how do you do a Cuban? accent. First, you get the podcast. Oh, I see.

Then you get the... First, you get the podcast. The podcast. Then you get the subscribers. Then you get the protein shake endorsement deal. Yeah. Then you get the power. Then you get the Hymns dick pills.

Sorry, that was Russian. And then you get the women. Her woman so fucking polluted. That's how I get into character for anything Cuban. Her woman's fucking poloaded. Anyways, he did an interview with him. And it's crazy getting an interview with Benjamin Netanyahu, you know.

Especially when you don't come from the Nelk family. Right. If you're not a Nelk boy, you know, then who are you? A proud member of the Nelk lodge. It's 2% Nelk. Yeah, but he did this interview. And this is just wild to post. And I just going to play it.

No comment. In Israel, if you actually talk to the majority of Christians, talk to them. You'll see what they say. They say, Israel is the only place where we're respected and protected. And I can attest it as a Christian who went to Israel. I spent two weeks there with the church. And we had an incredible time. we had only one incident

where a small child spit on one of the pastors and immediately after there was an adult that came by and said that's not a representation of who we are you know we love you guys

you guys are always welcome here and I have to say no adults gave us any grief we had no issues whatsoever BB is thinking the most racist shit right now BB is right now

going like are you fucking kidding me you're You're going to mention the spitting. Oh, that is so great. No, we had a really wonderful time, you know, in Berlin this past year. I only had one incident of someone calling me a kike and then spitting in my eye. It was truly beautiful.

And, you know, as opposed to my regular life, which left and right people are spitting on me, called me Hebe, saying I live in Jaime. town you know it is uh so just trying to imagine like what's going through brandon's mind as that question is coming at him because he knows he has this he's like and he starts with i can attest to that but then like he can't block the memory of that so he spins it as it only happened once and it was a small child and there was an adult present who came along and said that doesn't represent who we are yes yep yep yeah uh please don't tell the internet that i was mad like

please don't tell Benjamin Netanyahu that this happened yes please oh man it's just so funny to literally after getting spit on by a child

like have an interview with the prime minister and try to spin that as like one of the many blessings of visiting this land is the very small amount of spitting in the face you'll have

especially since the prime minister's claim was Christians will tell you, nowhere are they more respected? What do you think the average number of getting spat on by a small child happens in the following countries? Greece, South Africa, Paraguay, Canada, in fact, every country on earth, what's the country that is most likely, that's not a religious theocracy of the enemy? Right. And even then, I don't think Christians get spat on anywhere but Israel.

I don't think it gets spat on in fucking Egypt or getting spat on. in Lebanon or getting you know spat on in Syria like the idea that like there's going to be sectarian violence you know religious violence of course exists but let's be very clear about why they were being spat on in whatever the market in Jerusalem that is a thing but that happens but do you know that like actually Jewish spit is a power up for holy water oh shit that's crazy you add you add a little bit of that and it becomes so much holier it's a force multiplier as soon as you've got a little bit of the juice spit in the holy water then Jesus loves you extra yeah um it's a huge power up it's it's called a reverse micfa oh my god

but yeah that like i i love that i love including that i love not i mean and also shout out to brandon for you know not being able to help himself and uh just being like well i did get spit on by a child oh god it's just it's and i'll never wash that cheek again yeah exactly it was yeah this i'll never watch that very special spit okay yeah the fact that it was a child also you really you really have to consider that that's more than one person involved in that spit you know what i mean you know you think that kid himself is just like no no no no he's an extremist in the fucking kindergarten he's he's he's he's a real psycho you know in the sandbox on his report card yes yossi is displaying strange and completely unprecedented uh racial bigotry and jewish supremacy

yeah yeah we're very concerned about this yes is there something going on in the home uh specifically the home for all the jewish people of the world is there something going on in the homeland right what's his homeland life like exactly exactly oh man yeah the just beautiful it's beautiful it's beautiful um finally i want to end uh with another happy thing it's always nice to have these these wonderful happy moments another feel good week not in the news cycle but on this show i mean having having kind of elder statesman like tony karen and miko pellet to have like really engaging conversations and then yeah having a brand new late summer bop like bbys ring of fire drop and now what we're about to show it's

it's good times over here it's very nice it's very nice you know i mean it's is is horrifying and terrible things are it is always nice that to have the small moments that can kind of unite us and this is one of them for those of you out there who are big doughton abbey stands which i am my family i thought you were going to play the other thing we have a second one after this go what what are we Our friends on the water. Oh, yes, that's right. Okay, so first, just we should talk about our friends on the water. I think let's start with that because it is truly, like, awesome to watch.

And we're going to actually release a bonus interview next week with Greg Stoker, who is currently, you know, on one of the many flotillas that are right now sailing to Gaza. But it's been like, what? Well, just any flotilla that Greg Stoker is on is called the IDF, it's the IDF ain't shit. Yeah, yeah, exactly. He's Pablo Schreiber on the fucking carousel. And he's going, Israeli soldiers ain't shit.

That's what he does. You know, like, I love military guys. It's like, okay, guys, here's the fucking deal. This is an incompetent army. They don't know what the fuck they're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. breaks down all this military terminology i don't know but it leaves you feeling like you're dealing with a paper dagger yeah yeah and someone who someone who gets it too um but yeah

so we have two friends of the pod on these flotillas that are out there one of them is great stoker and one of them is tyke fucking hickie baby tyke is sailing right now and we are you know hoping for the best wishing him the best he's having kind of a rough time right now um and he recently we don't just mean dermatologically no yeah i i posted to him because he's every day he gets progressively like wrinklier and crispier this the irish curse yeah and i i said to him you're crisping up laddie down to the keel with you and he said i can hear your deplorable irish accent from here I can hear him saying deplorable in the way he would say it. It's nice.

What did you call your Irish accent very worthy or very? I forget. You used some great descriptor. Yeah. He loved it. But yeah, here is a video of him, Tyg, on one of the flotillas, kind of having a rough time. And I just figured, you know, I'd play it just so people, you know, could know that, you know,

reach out to him and let him know. that you know everything's going to be okay yeah it's with great great sadness to say that I don't think I'm actually going to be able to take part in the global smooth flotilla and it's been a tough couple of days to be honest with you but I was willing to accept the nausea constant sea sickness people snoring in my room feeling away from my kids ultimately probably conceivably ending up in the custody of the most psychopathic army of the world has ever seen I put up with all that but I mean everyone has their limit behind him there's a union jack that's a fucking british

stop the boats stop the boats oh i fucking love him so much man he's great it's so great it's so great and you know like it is it is super cool to uh see so many like the friends we've made in the last couple years doing this and like you know like being active not just being you know uh voices on the internet not that that is nothing but it's the closest to nothing that you can get and uh you know it is it's just very very cool um i of course i was like totally going to go um but then uh like oh i was just like oh shit i got a i got to i got to i'm i'm brave though i would i would go some people are some people are braver than i i'll say that i would too but you know the thought of like four or five or six matt only episodes i mean

producer adam can only fill in so much and then you'd probably have to find a replacement guest and it'd probably be someone really good and by the time i got back i'd be out of a gig and oh that's what you're concerned about i was thinking by the like sixth episode it's just like me you know talking to like a Hadid and just going, uh, you ever watch the Sopranos? Uh,

you, you holding your cat up in the shot? Yeah, yeah, check this out. Anyways, things are fucked up, huh?

Free pussystein, am I right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. From my butthole to my D. Am I right? Oh,

listen, I've, I've lost, the ability to do the show on my own. So I'm very grateful. But truly, though, I do think that the former guests we've had who are doing the global Samud Flutelis are like brave as shit and very cool. For sure.

And I, if they sail one out from, you know, the west coast of the United States, I'm down to do it. And, you know, I think it's, yeah, it's just, it's just awesome. And we'll talk to Greg Stoker next week to see, you know, how it's going out there for him but before we go one more piece of good news which is that for those of you out there who love downtown abbey and i'm one of those people daniel do you it's pronounced downtown matt it's it's absolutely it's about a woman who lives south of 14th street and her name is abbey yep and she every episode is a different snafu with the subways that's right that's what it's no it's not it's about a lord named

grantham and his wacky lord family uh it's a bbc drama about like you know how hard it is to live in a castle essentially uh and and also the servants right and the servants who who who live live there and work there and it's uh it's like so good it's like one of my favorite shows of all time uh And the third movie, the final in the Downton Abbey movie trilogy, is coming out next week. And while he was doing a press junket for it, Hugh Bonneville, who is the actor who plays like the head of the household, Lord Graham. Most aristocratic-ass name in the movie industry. Besides Benedict Cumberbatch. Yeah, Benedict Cumberbatch and Hugh Bonneville.

Benedict Cumberbatch, another based Palestine supporter apparently as well. Oh, really? I think he's involved with the Wembley, Brian Eno event. Oh, that's so cool. We got to get Cumberbatch on the pod, dude. I love it. Hello, it's me, Benedict Cumberbatch. That's uncanny.

Is that right? It's upper-class British accent. It's me the guy who plays Smog. Elementary, my dear Watson. We play the dragon in one of the orbit movies, yeah. Adam says, don't tell him. I call him Bendie Dick Cucon. Humber patch.

Hell yeah. I'm going to tell him. So anyways, Hugh Bonneville was being interviewed, a total fluff interview for, you know, the premiere of this movie. And he, it's just like beautiful. He took a moment to say something. And I have to give credit where credit is due. A final chapter of Dan Danube, and who better to speak to about that than Hugh Bonneville?

He's the end of the very start. Before I talk about the fluff and loveliness of our wonderful film, what's about to happen in Gaza City's indefensible? All right, just for those watching, you got to look at the face of the presenter. I feel kind of bad for her because she's, listen, she doesn't run whatever fucking shitty,

you know, entertainment show this is. Like, this will be on her record forever. Yes. She immediately is like, no, no, no, please, not me. It's the, it's the,

Ralph Wiggum in slow motion moment where you see his heart, you know, leave his body. Yes. I feel bad for her because she absolutely did not want to be a part of that moment because, I mean, listen, people get fired for the minute. The minute he called it fluff. Yeah. Yeah. She knew something was up. You see how. Like fluff, fluff, what do you mean? This is, this is what I do. It has to be, I'm a fluffer. Yeah, I'm a fluffer professionally. I fluff movies that. We're made out of BBC series. I fluff egos. Yes. All right, here. Our wonderful film,

what's about to happen in Gaza City's indefensible? The international community must do more to bring it to an end. Townsend is a lovely film. Free, free Palestine, free Palestine. From the river to sea.

Now, you really have to know the song in order to enjoy this remix. You are open for you. Downtown Pally. Downton Pally. Oh, beautiful. That's it. Downton Pally.

Seriously, though. Shout out to Hugh Bonville. I see Adam writing that one down. Just episode naming ideas. It's beautiful. I am very happy because we have, Francesca and I have tickets to see dought and abbey the final chapter when it comes out next week

as a little birthday present for her and now I can just fully enjoy it knowing that you know the cast are not scumbags you know what I mean? Or at least one person in the castes and I'm sure the rest of them aren't either because I love that show and I give them the benefit of the doubt I'd love to hear a Maggie Smith take down of Netanyahu or Smotrich

oh my god yeah a dry as a biscuit read of yes yeah oh man yes the dot the the the the dowager countess just doing a read on bb it would be so fucking great uh rip to a real one maggie smith oh she was the best best character in television by the way oh right she's dead yeah she died but yeah on that show uh yeah we should contact her agent anyway we see it was possible yeah Maybe AI can do it for us. AI or maybe, you know, computer. What's the thing? Projection. Hologram. Hologram.

That's what I'm thinking of. That'd be sick. But until then, you guys should watch Dutton Abbey. It's a good-ass show. And I think this has also been a good-ass show. You know what I'm hoping for? I'm hoping that Miko watches this episode and then waits for the commercial break to see what else we talked about.

And then it's just like, what the fuck? But Mika was great. I think he's into it. I think he's into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course he does. Of course he does. I'm just, I'm always putting on airs for my elders and my betters. Thank you to Miko who came out and, you know, spoke with us.

Thank you to all of you out there, Patreon.com slash bad hasbarra. Thank you for joining the Patreon. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. Frotcast, oops, excuse me, Matt Hasbara at gmail.com

for all your questions, comments and concern. What is frot? Why is it called frotcast? Well, frotting is, you know, protage. It's when Dick's... Right, because in French,

refreter means to rub. Yeah. So that's literally what it... Okay, good. Yeah. That was my association. It's a metaphor for podcasting. It's, I mean,

what is podcasting but doing protage? Am I wrong? no that's right uh bad as barra gmail dot com for all your questions comments and concerns all right everyone thanks again so much for listening and until next time from the river to the sea we love matty's son generally and specifically yeah yes and romantically and erotically War is my favorite thing. It excites my ding-a-ling. But now these cowards and liars, they've put me in a ring of fire.

Help me out of this burning ring of fire. You traitors belong behind barbed wire. And it burns my ass. This ring of fire, this ring of fire. Come on everyone. You're just playing into Amalek's hands here. Focus. Eyes on the prize. The taste of blood is sweet.

Genocides almost. almost complete but these peacnicks cannot abide it hey buddy don't knock by it until you've tried it why put me in a burning ring of fire I'm a white Polish Jew and I don't like to perspire and it belongs in Gaza this ring of fire this ring of fire Come on, Hebray, I'm not the enemy I'm not your enemy, the enemy is

an infant in an incubator in Gaza It's a pregnant mother It's a disabled man in a wheelchair In Chan Yunus You know who the enemy is Come on, Heverim, let's be friends We're all Jews here Thank you.