Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - [UNLOCKED] 166: Bad Kolnoa "The West Wing" with Zachary Foster & Vince Mancini

Episode Date: December 26, 2025

UNLOCKED PATREON EPISODE! HAPPY HOLIDAYS!With Daniel in the wind, Matt welcomes returning champions Zachary Foster of Palestine Nexus, and Frotcast/Pod Yourself co-host Vince Mancini to get sorking wet on a deep dive into The West Wing’s Gaza episodes (S5E21, S6E2, available on HBO Max).Please donate to Pal-Humanity: http://palhumanity.com/Palestine Nexus: https://palestinenexus.com/The #Content Report: https://vincemancini.substack.com/New Bad Hasbara Merch: https://estoymerchandise.com/collections/bad-hasbara-podcastSubscribe to the Patreon https://www.patreon.com/badhasbaraWhat’s The Spin playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/50JoIqCvlxL3QSNj2BsdURSkad Skasbarska playlist: http://bit.ly/skadskasbarskaSubscribe/listen to Bad Hasbara wherever you get your podcasts.Spotify https://spoti.fi/3HgpxDmApple Podcasts https://apple.co/4kizajtSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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Olive garden us. White foster us. Zabrahamas. As far as us. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Bad Hasbara, the world's most moral podcast. My name is Matt Lieb. I'll be your most moral host for this very special episode of Bad Hasbara. We do not have Daniel Mate, he is not here this week for this episode, which is unfortunate

because this is a very special episode. And we really, you know, honestly, I miss him. wherever you are Daniel Mate just know that I'm missing you intensely but luckily for me this is a special podcast

where we're going to be talking about movies and TV shows very specifically this time of TV show that's right it's part two of bad cold Noah that's where we do you know rewatches of Israeli propaganda movies and TV shows and I have two

of my regular bad Colnoa guests. That's right. You know, last time when we did it, we watched Golda together, which is available to everyone right now. If you haven't seen our rewatch of Golda, it's really fun.

It's a really shitty movie about Golda Meyer. Please, go ahead and watch that if you can. Patreon.com slash badasbara. Also, badasbara at gmail.com for all your questions, comments, concerns, and requests do you have a movie or a TV show you would like us to watch and make fun of let me know

I would love that also shout out to producer Adam Levin he's going to be joining us in the second half because one of our guests has to go um so you will be seeing him a little bit later but for right now I'm very excited to introduce our two guests the returning champions of bad cold Noah We have, of course, the founder of Palestine Nexus and our dear, dear friend Zachary Foster is here. Zachary, how you doing? Thanks so much for having me, Matt. Always a pleasure to be on Bad Hasbara. I love having you on, and I especially love having you on for these episodes because you, there's no better, like, Hasbara Buster out there, I think, than you.

I think you are, to me, like the number one guy. you're the go-to person you always have the facts you have an encyclopedic like brain it's truly incredible to watch you're too kind Matt oh I'm a normal amount of kind I'm just saying tell tell me about Palestine Nexus real quick let let the people know about it yeah Palestine Nexus is a educational and media brand I founded about five years ago we published a newsletter on Palestine, past and present. We publish a lot of writers in Gaza right now every week. We've got a couple articles coming out from writers and journalists in Gaza. We also have courses. You can study the history of Zionism, of Jewish anti-Zionism,

of Palestine, of the Palestinians, all at Palestine nexus.com. Yeah. Check it out. It's really cool. And again, thank you for coming on. And our other guest, he is my other podcast, Soulmate, the OG. We do a podcast together called the Frotcast. We also do TV rewatch podcast called Pod Yourself a Gun, which is, was a Sopranos rewatch. Then it became a The Wire rewatch. And now it is a Mad Men rewatch podcast. And you can get that wherever you get your podcasts. And also he has a wonderful substack called the hashtag content report. You can get that in the show notes. click on the link subscribe to his substack my dear dear friend uh a person who i am proud to call my stepson uh ladies and gentlemen and everyone else vince mancini is here you're significantly older

stepson how are you doing papa well i'm doing well son i i say that because uh you know me and his mother have a relationship oh we're having fun vince yeah yeah vince how are you doing? Are you excited? Are you occupying her Gaza Strip? That's right, baby. She'd give me that Iron Dome, you know what I mean? I'm sure you've used that one before. I have. Yeah. So Vince, tell the people more about yourself. You're a TV, a TV critic. Yeah, critic, a writer, Bon Vivant, some would say, raconteur, big fan of anything Aaron Sorkin. I feel like about, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago, I started to like notice all of his ticks and like even things that I'd liked that he'd done. I would like retroactively made me dislike them just like

how much he always does his thing. So going back to the West Wing was fun because I don't, I never watched it when it originally came out. So now it's like, it's like a memory hold Sorkin project to get to see. Yeah. It is, uh, it's, it's, it's quite a. amazing and yes that's right ladies and gentlemen we're going to be talking about two israel based episodes of the west wing on this podcast uh i'm very excited i made both of you watch the west wing um i you guys saw it's season five episode 21 called gaza and then season six episode two called the burnham wood and these are both um just like beautiful time capsules of liberal

Zionist thought pre-2005 like this is like 2004 I think it was the tail end of the second intifada it came out at a time when you know obviously the

peace process had failed and it is just like you know why it's beautiful if you've never watched the newsroom Aaron Sorkin did a show called the newsroom in which he it's a show about a

you know 24 hour news network and set like 18 months before the shows would air and so it's like so we would do this smarmy liberal thing of like being right in hindsight but he would pretend

as if it was right at the time so we would report stories that you know 18 months later you would have a little bit more perspective on and treat you and the world like an idiot for having, you know, the wrong take. It essentially was just a smarmy, liberal show about what the news should be. What you need to do if you've never seen the newsroom is to like look up the clip about when they learned of Osama bin Laden getting assassinated and they're on a plane and like everybody salutes. Everyone starts saluting the pilot.

Like there's actually a shot where he like looks at the pilot's wing. like his badge and like realizes that he needs to respect him and then they all they all press f to show respect for the killing of bin laden that's right it is truly beautiful and but watching this is kind of like the opposite of the newsroom because he instead of like going back in time and being correct his perspective is just naive and wrong and stupid and like you get to watch him be supremely confident about his beautiful middle ground position uh about about, you know, about Gaza, about Palestinian human rights. Listen, it's about technocratic solutions.

That's right. To what are really emotional problems. Yeah. Zach, is this your first time seeing the West Wing, first time seeing any Sorkin? Let's say yes. Yeah, I'm sure I've seen bits and pieces here and there, but I don't know if I've sat through two full episodes like I just did in the past 24 hours. I'm so sorry.

But do you know the answer to who ordered the code red? is the more yeah yeah but so like for you i i wanted to bring you on to talk about this and i i know you you do have to go uh in a few so i i just want to kind of get your perspective on a few things that happen in both of these episodes um but just as a quick overview did you in the the second episode that we watched uh the burnham wood uh it is essentially a sort of reimagining of like the Camp David like summit when you were watching that episode did you see them historically taking positions from things that actually happened or what did you feel about it yeah there were some fictional elements to this fictional drama series yeah so first of all

on the issue of Jerusalem I think it was ironic because Because, you know, just to back up, right, they're talking about all these different tracks, right? We got the Jerusalem track. We got the refugees track. We got the borders and security track. And we got the resources and water track or whatever it was. And so they first make Jerusalem out to be the hardest of all the tracks, which ended up being the easiest of all the tracks to resolve. Ironically in history, by 2008, right, so you have these negotiations beginning in 2000, going all the way to

2000, let's say there's even the John Kerry initiatives in 2013-14, but let's say the serious priest talks took place in Camp David in July 2000. Then you had renewed talks in Taba in 2001 a year later. And then you had the 2007-2008 Annapolis discussions between Ehud Olmert and Mahmoud Abbas. Now, of all the issues where they got closest to an agreement, actually jerusalem was the issue where they got closest to an agreement in which ehul omer agreed that the jerusalem neighborhoods of sorry the jewish neighborhoods of jerusalem would go to israeli control and the palestinian neighborhoods of jerusalem would go to wait for it palestinian control that was the breakthrough they reached after nine years of negotiation

i know mind-blowing um whereas actually the refugee issue they completely i i think misrepresented there was never any acknowledgement there was never any recognition on the part of the israelis certainly not in 2000 not even 2001 and not even in 2008 that they took any responsibility whatsoever for having created the refugee problem in the first place let alone offer compensation let alone offer right of return yeah that was just they just made all that shit up that was the craziest shit was like watching them talk uh about like get into serious discussions about the right of return with the Israelis. And I'm just watching this and I'm like, this is such like, this is like such fantasy that like Sorkin is sitting there trying to, uh, because he's a liberal Zionist, right? So he's like holding this

position that he knows he knows occupation is wrong. Uh, and he knows that like the Palestinians are oppressed people and having their human rights trampled by the Israelis. So he can't simultaneously ignore the fact that they would have refugees would have the right of return. So he has to write the Israelis as more reasonable than they are when it comes to this stuff. It's just really funny watching him fantasy cast the Israelis and also kind of while still

showing much more sympathy for them than he does for any of the Palestinians. I was watching this from the perspective obviously of someone who sees the future, knows where all of this goes and is like the idea that we are sitting watching a show in which the president of the United States, President Bartlett played by Martin Sheen. They wishcasted a president.

Yeah, I'm sorry, but he's just like sitting in the middle. Yeah, that was the best. That's amazing. They wish casted that. We didn't have that until West Wing was like you know what we need a president who plays basketball and then we got one amazing a 55 year old basketball player i'm like i'm pretty much running out of steam at age 40 i don't know all these guys yeah he's also like five six i think yeah well they're all five six um but yeah i just love casting um the president of the united states president bartlett as um this like this middleman between these two parties that just can't get along as if the

United States, especially, you know, when we're talking about, like, post-Jimmy Carter, the United States has just been the total and complete advocate for the Israeli position. The disapproving uncle, just like, ugh. Yeah. Why can't they get figured out? You know what it is? It's this religious difference. Yeah.

Well, they show the scene with the Shabbat dinner and all the Israelis are on the Shabbat dinner. and then the scene with the Palestinians, all of whom are Muslim, of course, even though like 20% of Palestinians are Christian. Even though the guy who's playing Farad, who's like the chairman of, you know, the PA, is literally a Palestinian Christian actor who lives in 48. Of course they're like, no, they got to be Muslim. They got to be.

This Hasbara episode, I think, was epic because as you probably know right now, in the past few months, there have been a number of studies undertaken by these Hasbara cutouts, and what they've determined is that it's impossible to recover from genocide. Like, there's nothing Israel can do. But, but if it shifts focus on the fact that Palestinians are Muslims, and we just hate

on Muslims, Americans and Europeans can agree on that. Yes, yes. Which you saw a little bit of that in that episode. Oh, yeah. I mean, this was woke for the time because it never used the Muslim call to prayer as like an ominous portent. and they only used al-aq al-aqabar as like uh as as something uh that you hear when you're about to die like once or twice so yeah really i mean for 2004 impressive yeah i mean that's the thing about like

you know liberalism is is that it is they're impressed they're always kind of impressed with their own wokeness and i'm not you know i don't take anything away from people who are not all the way there i think the problem i have is that uh and before getting into the the episodes is that Aaron Sorkin has not evolved since then. In fact, Aaron Sorkin left CAA in protest of a pro-Palestine agent. This happened in 2003, obviously after October 7th. On October 24th, he dropped CAA after Agent Maha-Dakil's controversial Israel-Hamas posts. In which she literally, these were the posts.

She had a post that said, you're currently learning who supports genocide. And she added her own caption, that's someone else's post. And her own caption was, that's the line for me. That's what she wrote. And then she posted a second photo caption,

what's more heartbreaking than witnessing genocide, witnessing the denial that genocide is. happening. That caused her to get publicly shamed and broken up with by Aaron Sorkin. Aaron Sorkin has continued to be a liberal Zionist. This is why people don't trust liberals. Is she the one that Tom Cruise got reinstated or was that Jenny Ortega? No, Tom Cruise essentially said, do not, if you fire her, I'm leaving. And they chose Cruz over over Sorkin, which obviously based.

But yeah, so that's why I find it particularly funny. Let's start this pod. First, Vince, in honor of you and I's time together as you know, TV rewatch guys, I first

need to play the theme song of the West Wing. West Wing. West Wing West Wing West Wing West

Wing Bad is Barr All right We're trying not to get banned here from YouTube Is that the idea? Yeah, yeah, yeah Listen, this episode will be demonetized

at the very least at the most copyright struck so this is the things we have to deal with so we're starting with episode 5 Sorry, Season 5, Episode 21, Gaza. And I'll do a brief rundown of this episode. So we start off with, we're at the Erez checkpoint in Gaza.

Now, this is at a time before, I believe, and Zach, correct me if I'm wrong, before Gaza was completely walled off. Is that correct? Or was this the beginning of the building of the wall? When was this episode shot? What year are we talking? 2004, 2003. I mean, we're sort of right before Gaza, the number of entry and exit points between the

border crossings kind of starts the fall of a cliff in 2005. So if you look, it's like 2005 is like, people can still get in and out, 2006, mostly not. And by 2007, especially after June 2007, they're basically completely close. So we're right at the cusp of that period. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, at this point, there's still people going in and out. but checkpoints closing all the time. This is mentioned in the episode.

And we have a visiting U.S. congressional delegation who are standing around arguing about the, basically they're doing the argument about Israel, Palestine. They're standing there arguing about it. And there is a hot photographer who's looking at Donna, who is a series regular on the show, takes a picture of her there's some history we don't know

she gets in the car and it explodes now this is just one of those scenes that as I was watching it I was like I was like getting mad because the conversation the congressional delegation is having

is pissing me off because it's like I know it's Aaron Sorkin going like this is what they would discuss while standing at the Erez crossing And I mean First of all The air is crossing

By the way It feels like an international airport I've been through that crossing twice Yeah They make it out to be this little You know nimble Like flying checkpoint That's something

No no no It's like an international It's like crossing international border Yeah It's very intense checkpoint So no that's not I mean the restraint that he That it took Aaron's Oregon

To write that scene Without putting in a you think Is just amazing because he he's like the king of people saying you think because like he has to acknowledge his own smugness because it's that it's that stultifying but like i think the one guy says after 50 years one option would be to get over it and like that is the most erin sorkin line do and that that line reveals i think a lot about erin sorkin's actual feelings about this because like is it all like so many of his lines feel like you can tell that the character is

just reading like a strongly worded email that Aaron Sorgan himself wants to write. And like that is case and point right there. Just to provide more context so people understand that the context within which he says that sentence, oh, after 50 years, can't they just get over it? They're talking about the right of return for refugees, right? Yeah. And so Jews have a right of return after 3,000 years, but 50 years just get over it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so clear to me that like so many of the characters that are written to be like the more more fervently Zionist like Josh he's uh Josh is Bradley Whitford I don't know the name of the actor he's so there's two there's twomented weasel guy from uh Billy Madison that guy with power Alice yeah there's there there's two

so I don't know too many of the names of character so there's the bald guy who I called like reasonable Jew and then there's him who I call annoying Jew he's the egg man who's not you Are all of these characters in the film is supposed to be Jewish? No, just those two characters, because they have a conversation later in the Burnham Wood episode where, like, one is representing a more sort of liberal Zionist, and then Josh represents, I think, Aaron Sorkin's id, which is kill them all. But watching, oh, yeah, the bald guy's name is Toby. That's the name of that character. Yeah, Richard Schiff. yeah and so

in that conversation where he's like well why don't they just get over it I was like watching it I was fuming because I know I know deep down that's where Aaron Sorkin is which is like your land is colonized it is ours get over it and it just makes me

incredibly mad and anyways here's that scene for people to watch there are displaced population displaced Palestinians with what 15, 20 miles? Do you ever move? I grew up in Dayton.

They're still refugees. You know, after 50 years, one option might be to get old. That's got banned. oh wow that was great editing there shout out to producer adam levin who edited the shit out of that video um that is who that is how i felt um so this episode the gauze episode we'll just get into the different like usually when we're doing a rewatch podcast vince and i were getting into every different

storyline i do not give a shit about the other storylines in this the only shit i give uh the only thing I care about is what's happening in Gaza and the reactions to it. I don't care about the relationships within these characters. Well, she's doing a, the maybe dead girl's doing like a Dugie Houser thing on her where she writes, she's writing emails back home about facts that she's learned about Palestinians. Yes, yes, yes. That's how the story is told. So it's like it starts out with before the explosion. We flash back. And there's a meeting with Fatah leaders, uh, And there's one point where the Palestinian leadership is talking about how Israel targets civilians, you know. And the general there who got the admiral who was blown up, the black guy who said after 50 years, his amazing counterpoint is, oh, so when you guys blow up a pizza shop, you know, you don't target civilians.

And I love casually comparing your professional army to acts of terrorism. You know, like, to me, I'm just like, you know there's a different. You know you're, you're the army, right? You can't, you can't just be like, well, you guys, you know, you can't pretend to have moral high ground while openly, you know, saying like, we're just following the rules of engagement, set by terrorism or whatever. And so we meet a hot Irish photojournalist played by, what is the name, Jeremy Isaacs?

Jason Isaacs. And he's talking to Donna. You know what I love about the character of Jason Isaacs is that he is supposed to be any Irishman that you would see? I think he's Scottish, isn't he? Well, no, in the show he's Irish. Is he? Okay. Oh, yeah, 100%.

He's in real life. He's Scottish, though, right? I don't, I don't know. I don't care. Sorry. Vince is always asking, what race is he? Yeah, I have to be able to categorize. Can we measure his skull and see which type of bread eater he is? I just do some, like, on-site phrenology. He's from Liverpool, if you guys are wondering.

I wasn't. No one was. Well, now you know. I feel bad about telling you. Okay, so he is playing this Irish photojournalist. And my guess is that because he's Irish, you're supposed to think, like, oh, he's, you know, someone who is pro-Palestine or whatnot. And I think that's the way the show is trying to represent him, at least aesthetically. But in terms of what he says and what he talks about throughout the show, like, he is mostly leading Donna throughout, like, throughout Gaza teaching her about Gaza

and just casually in an Irish accent spitting Hasbara at her. He's doing what was considered woke for 2004, which is like saying that, well, the thing about all Muslims is that they all yearn to be martyrs, but it's only because they're so oppressed. Yes.

And that's the woke part. So it's like delivering like a, you know, a very like propagandistic talking point, but it's actually, you know, it's our fault. We used mean words and so... Right, yeah. But this propaganda point is so powerful and it echoes in the words of people today. Very prominent intellectuals, people like Ezra Klein, who as recently as about a year ago was basically saying, you know, when I compare Netanyahu to Hamas, I take the side of Netanyahu because he doesn't intentionally target civilians, as Hamas does.

That's Ezra Klein a year ago. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's crazy how long this kind of propaganda has lasted. And, you know, to be honest, like I give a lot of grace for at least people I know, you know, personally who are just now coming to see. But the people who still are not. That's, that's what like drives me fucking crazy. People in the news, whose job is the news. Yes, whose job is the news who are still like, no, I'm still firmly dug in on the sometimes those kids got to die.

position um sometimes kids get accidentally shot in the head twice it happens all the time you know i mean the hamas health ministry says um but yeah so here is one piece of as has bar that happens which i think is fascinating uh donna meets a guy who can't go to work because israel closed the crossings and uh his friend tells him he should be a martyr and uh i'm going to play that clip for you right now I'm sorry, I don't know this. The Israeli's close the checkpoints after suicide bombings. The woman last week. Right.

I can't work to feed my family. Where's the carama? He says I should become one of them. What's it say? Glory and eternity for our martyrs. The Palestinian Authority pays $2,000 dollars to the families of martyrs. That's definitely a month until the last child leaves home. I wish to work, but these martyrs...

But these martyrs, these martyrs, takes food out of my children's mouths. Let's good, yeah, chahel. So this was, this is a fact that I hear all the time. And it was more of a prominent, like, Hezbara meme. It is forever World War II era in Palestine and American TV. That's right. It's one of those, like, Hezbarra memes that is maybe more of a deep cut if you're new to this. But, Zach, have you?

you know about the pay to slay propaganda certainly yeah there's so much to say about this so if you give me a minute or two yes please so first of all the first misconception about the quote unquote pay to slay program is that anyone killed by the Israeli military be it in an attack on a civilian an attack on a soldier be it a kid who was accidentally shot in the head twice doesn't matter who you are or how you're killed by Israel if you're killed by Israel the palisian authority will pay your family members some amount of money for a long period of time. Now, this quote-unquote paid the slave program was actually recently significantly cut back on in order to, as Mahmoud Abbas was doing all he possibly could to lick the boot of the

Israeli military and the American government, he actually significantly cut that program back. And so it's operating in a very diminished scale now to the, in comparison to what it was before. But I think the bigger point to make about all of this is that guess what other country also has a pay to slay program, by the way. It's called Israel. And in fact, if you go, this has been reported on for a long time, but it's never called pay to slay because we have a double standard by which

when Palestinians have raised do exactly the same thing. When the Israeli does it, we call them a soldier. When the Palestinian does it, we call them a terrorist, right? So when Israel does something, it's self-defense. when Palestinian does something is terrorism. So that exact same framing happens in the case of pay to slay. Whereas, so they call it pay to slave for the Palestinians. But if you're an Israeli soldier and you're accidentally shooting kids in the head twice every day for 780 days and you get killed doing that,

your family members, including your fiancé, who you haven't even married yet, will get received benefits to the tune of thousands of U.S. dollars per month for periods of years and years and years. after you were killed, which is literally the Peta Slai program, except in reverse for the occupier, for the Genocider, for the XARTID. Yeah, yeah. And it's so funny, too, because you're watching the way in which this type, like Pater Slay was absolutely a, you know, focus group, PR-tested piece of propaganda, you know, that a publicist created or an ad man created, right? And it's, it is only something you hear about as, with regard.

to like did you know that they they pay terrorists to do suicide bombings it's the same with the word martyr the way in which they use the word martyr throughout this episode everyone wants to be a martyr you know oh you should be a martyr this idea of martyrdom it's it's like everyone's understanding of it in 2004 is very like 9-11 pilled right like they're trying I can't believe they didn't mention 72 virgins I know I know they got close Again, like this was so restrained and this is like a perfect example of the kind of like centrist liberal position that Aaron Sorkin is always taking where it's like he's congratulating himself for showing you this like reasonable Palestinian man like see look we depicted this reasonable Palestinian man who was not at all bloodthirsty. It's just that everyone around him and all of his friends want him to become a martyr. Right. Yeah. Which it's so genocidal in nature. because it's just like they're literally saying it's here's one good one yeah we found the good one

i'm good because i'm showing you the good one of this obviously group of bad people and then on the other side when they're when that reporter is interviewing the israeli soldier oh i love this see oh my god he's i maybe we can watch it oh yeah we got to watch it right now the settler one was the the settler one is is great too but this one is so good because it shows you exactly humanity. Yeah. And the kindness and empathy that all Israeli soldiers have deep down inside. Yes. So throughout the show, you know, Donna is going around and talking to different people. She talks to settlers. She talks to that Palestinian. And she then goes to talk to an IDF soldier who was a, you know, who was, you know, stationed at this settlement in Gaza. By the way, this is at a time when settlement still existed in Gaza. And so.

she's talking to him and just look at the like care that they have for you know this like this soldier look at the humanity and it just so clearly

shows the ideological position of the writer of the show of the everyone on the show and so here it is two are women girls 19 killed in their barracks

so he's talking about like soldiers who were Excuse me, what did you just say, sir? They died inside a pastry? What did he just say? He's talking about, you know, soldiers who were killed by Palestinian like mortar rounds that hit a barracks in a settlement. And so he's explaining this to Donna. After the deaths of the girl soldiers, some in my unit,

they'd call on loudspeaker in Arabic taunting calling them names filthy names and young Palestinians would come out from hiding boys with rocks and

they shoot them with live bullets donna I serve with them they're not evil but when people who are not monsters do this it's the situation the circumstances are to blame

I'm sorry I love I love cat being like, it's very important for you to remember that the child murderers are not monsters. It's the circumstances that are to blame. This is also just well within Aaron Sorkin's wheelhouse, which is a man explaining something to a woman who is naive. I didn't think about that angle.

That's well, everything, everything. I forget how we have often described on the podcast. This was Brett, he said that for. In the first draft of every Aaron Sorkin script, the female characters are just named my ex-wife. Yeah, and this, I feel like my ex-wife is Palestine. Palestine is Aaron Sorkin's ex-wife just constantly being explained to. Everyone is doing, especially in the second episode,

where everyone keeps having to explain reality to the Palestinians as if they don't live it. but yeah that that scene is just is so fucking crazy to me because it's like he's talking about something that is like clearly an evil thing we can all agree and no one is I'm not interested in a debate about like who's pure evil and who's a real monster but when you have that kind of scene to me the way in which he's having to describe to her like you have to remember I know these guys. They're all really cool other than that one thing. They're all like normal people, just like you and me.

And I, like, we're supposed to sit there and go like, damn, any one of us could shoot children. And I'm like, stop. What one side is clearly the oppressor. The bad guy is the situation which we have had in no way created. Yeah, exactly, which we find ourselves stuck in. It's just like the weather. This memorialization and celebration of the empathy and patience of the soldier, of the Israeli soldier, is just echoes so much today.

I mean, was it a year ago when CNN published a blockbuster report interviewing the Israeli soldier who could no longer eat meat anymore after having ridden a bulldozer over the live and dead bodies of Palestinians in Gaza and from the guts that split. spewed out all over his bulldozer he's lost the ability to eat meat yeah poor thing poor guy poor guy i mean it's it must be hard out there for you know anyone who like uh used to enjoy a horror film to be like damn ever since that i kind of sympathize with the slasher you know what i mean feel like freddie kruger just honestly he's just trying to secure himself in his people by going into your dreams and killing you um yeah it is it's like and to me you know it's not that i am

against the humanization of anyone i don't i don't uh have any blanket feelings about like oh you shouldn't humanize this that or the other there you know it's just the asymmetry yeah it's a false dichotomy he's constantly creating a false dichotomy that doesn't exist and then congratulating himself for showing you the nice person within that situation even though like the base of it

is him and you know creating basically like all of the propaganda points aware yeah it's just the situation and these people they ate each other what do we do you know we need a technocratic solution we need someone to come in here

I think if anything he exaggerates the sort of both sidesism on the US side that oh there's this position and we're just trying to bring them closer together we're just caught in the middle we're doing our best to pull that israeli's and palisines together whereas the reality has has been for the past 30 years is israel has the united states has acted as Israel's lawyer i mean just look down the list of u.s negotiators who have been involved in this process from 93 to the present i mean going back to the clinton years including the camp david uh talks in july 2000 who are the who are the u.s negotiators

Dennis Ross, former A-PAC official, Aaron David Miller, long-time associate of Dennis Ross, having lived in Israel for multiple years. By the way, both those guys are Jewish. Surprise, surprise. Martin Indick, another longtime supporter of Israel who worked at the Saban Center for Middle East policy. By the way, Kham Saban, number one, Democratic donor to the Democratic Party, whose issue is, whose only issue is, wait for it, Israel. That's right. Daniel Kurtzer, Israel Firster.

I mean, it's just like you run down the list and we're still in the 90s. I mean, it just gets worse and worse and worse. Yeah, yeah. They were acting as Israel's lawyer for the past 30 years all the while pretending like these American negotiators are just doing their best to break the sides together. Yeah, and I think that's the part that like, as someone who does not have like an encyclopedic knowledge of every in and out of like this conflict, I think that's the thing that like rings the most false is the idea that like the Americans are coming in there and it's like oh well we got to do we got

mediate between these sides because nobody else is doing and it's like why like why like why would you frame it that way like there are any number of other like conflicts around the world like why like why is this one why is this one um why are you framing it as this is the only one we're like we have to go in there and be like the wise uncle like that's not at all what's happening yes right we've been in in this and like taking one side since the very beginning like yes i mean this is this is you know a u.s colony as much as it is any other a western states colony and so it's like you know we do this like feigned distance between uh where we stand and it's not to say that presidents haven't had different positions and evolving position you know there was a time when the idea of calling the

West Bank settlements illegal was normalized in Washington. It's only gotten worse. But the idea that somehow the U.S. represents this middleman, this middle power, kind of going, hey guys, we're just trying to get you to get along. Get along when it's just been, no, it's been a constant negotiation for more and more disenfranchisement of Palestinians, losing more and more land formalizing their dispossession, as this episode says at one point. I love this one scene where they're all, all of the main characters of the West Wing are together in a room talking, like in just Hasbara talking points. And they're acting like they're having a debate.

But the agreed upon point of the debate is, well, yeah, we all know that Arabs all want to kill Jews. like that that is just doesn't matter if you're you know what side you're on in this and I also love that by the way in this scene uh the women represent like the weak liberal angle and the men represent the strong masculine angle so let me let me play this one for you I just love it here we go what's going to be our response what do you think it should be regime change take out the chairman he is the impediment Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity I'll be even's line the guy in Tel Aviv's no picnic either state It's convinced nothing can happen until these two guys are gone. Israel's not the problem. Settlements, the wall. Israel needs to blow Americans up. I'm not saying there's equivalence.

Israelis don't talk about driving the Palestinians into the sea. Some do. Oh, come on. You've never heard the phrase greater Israel? Not from anyone serious. One reason people. I'm sorry, I just love that. I love this because it's like, this is so, like, the opposite of the newsroom.

Like, man, you look like a fucking idiot, sorkin. Not from anyone serious. No one would ever seriously talk about, I love, yeah. People say nothing can happen until these guys are gone is the feeling they both may be stuck in old attitudes or assumptions. And there was a time when Palestinians and all Arabs wanted to drive Jews into the sea. What? What? Just stating that so casually, so obviously true, right?

She's the liberal in this, in this position. Like, she's still like, well, there was a time, as we all know. Can I just make a point of historical. fact here, which is that a brilliant Israeli Jewish historian by the name of Shaikh Ascani, he's a professor of Jewish history at University of Maryland, published an article in Haaret's a couple of years ago in which he documents how he spent years and years and years looking for the origins of this, you know, the Arabs want to push the Jews into the sea argument. Like, there must be some documentation in a newspaper, in a book, in a pamphlet.

Where does this argument originate that the Arabs want to push the Jews into the sea? you're not going to believe it wait for it where does this where does this idea first come into into the historical record in the israeli archives the israeli government in the zionist central archives in the israeli state archives have all these documents in which are talking about how we need to convince the world that the arabs want to drive the jews into the sea The Zionist at first invented that myth. And you can read about that in Hart's article published by Shai Hascani in 2021. Wow. That is crazy. Apparently the poodle lady never read that one. Who's the poodle lady?

The lady with the bangs. She looks like the Looney Tune Sleep Dog. You're talking about this lady. Yeah, if we're going to talk about her bangs for a second, what's happening? I'm glad we have the two people with the worst hair in the show on the screen together, because both of them, like, Bradley Whitford's hair looks like a, some sort of, like, peacock's tail with, like, you know, it's just, like, fanned out, like, really insanely. And then she's got a loony-tuned sheepdog thing. I love it.

So I'm going to finish this scene because I know, Zach, you have to go, but just to finish us off, here's the rest of this. And all Arabs want to drive Jews into the sea, but some would argue that time's past. Listen to some Arab broadcasts. Ravel rousing to distract their street. I'm not sure any credible Arab leader truly expects Israel's demise anymore. I mean, not even the chairman. Don't bet on it. Oh, there's a view that...

Don't keep saying some argue and there's a view. Can we restrict it to your view? Okay. Palestinians are no longer fighting to destroy the Jewish state. They're fighting for a state of their own. A revolutionary struggle against an occupying force. And revolutionaries will outlast and out die occupiers every time. I don't know if that's more simplistic or naive.

It's tribal. It can't be solved. It's Hatfield and McCoy and there is no end. I just I just love I love it this it's a room full of people at the White House who are just going oh this situation's impossible and I just you you can only believe that if you truly believe the only reality is that Israel is fundamentally the most like the most moral actor here, the one that needs to exist, the one that is only dealing with existential threats because they are Jewish. That is the only way you can believe that. Any like rational way of like looking at this is you guys work at the White House. You guys work for the president. Y'all can solve this. Why are we pretending you can't? You know what I'm saying?

it's just great i mean i don't doubt the framing i don't doubt that this was the framing through which they were arguing about this in 2004 i mean i believe that like if they like that this was the way that they thought in you know like that that was the framing that they accepted right the the the intractable nature of it for sure but i mean i i i i do think it's a little disingenuous for them to not a little it's it is a little disingenuous for them to all be standing around having this debate that is just

it is yeah like completely ignoring the fact that like the power dynamic here is not I'm a middle man America is a middle man between these two rival faction also the whole thing is like how mean is the rhetoric coming out of each side

it's like I don't know that that is the issue yeah what mean words are they saying about each other right well but because when Arabs say mean words, then it means that they have essentially, you know, they've lost their right to human rights. When Israelis do, it's, you know, it's a different thing. They just got a little hot-headed. They were just, you know, they were in that bad situation again. Exactly. Zach, I know you have to go. Final thoughts. How do you like that show?

Yeah, final thoughts. I think if I could just make one last point here before I depart. I thought it was a particularly revealing moment, which actually reflects historical reality, where they're talking about how Israel assassinations, or at least an attempt to assassinate a resistance leader in which a dozen some people are killed, including a few children. Yes, the very end of the episode, yes. And that actually happened. In 2002, Israel assassinations Hamas. It was like 2003, 2003, Israel goes on this assassination spree and just kills every Hamas leader one after the other. First, it's like Ahmed Yassin and then Ablazzi Zrantisi.

It's just one after the other, they kill them all. And in one of those strikes, they assassinate a leader and kill a dozen some people. And George W. Bush, then U.S. president, issues a condemnation because 12 innocent people were killed in an Israeli strike. I mean, can you imagine? Just thinking back, I mean, it just kind of, it just sort of reminds you of how far we've come from 2002, three, four, five, a world where 12, people are killed every day during a ceasefire. Yeah. Yeah. And do we get a condom date? No.

No. No. So it just kind of gives you a perspective on just like how far we've come from that. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it's so funny because the ending of this episode is that scene where the old man who I, whatever his name is Leo, it's just like, Hamas just killed or the Israelis just killed four children, 12 people in general, to try to kill one Hamas leader, and we don't know if he killed that guy. And it's just this kind of dramatic ending to it. Oh, yeah. I love you, too. Thank you so much for coming on. Love you, dude. Take care. Come back soon. We'd love to. Love you. Bye. Bye. I just want to play that scene for everyone to see. please yeah it is the ending of this episode check this out thanks

thanks Israeli gunships just fired missiles into an apartment house in Gaza city they were targeting a Hamas leader 12 killed including four children no word on whether the Hamas leader is among the dead I love the sadness. Yeah. Well, especially, like, you have to play to where the credits play, and it's like that weird, like, upbeat Law and Order score of the shit.

Like, the theme song is like, do, dude, like Mr. Smith goes to Washington. Where are the president? Happy, happy, happy. Yeah. But just ending on, you know, that note of like intractable, the tragedy of all. Serious people have to deal with serious problems. and you know serious problems require technocratic solutions it is it's straight up like sad because it had to be done that's the feeling sometimes it's sad has bar yeah exactly sometimes

it is again like this is the this is the standard framing uh in the u.s where it's like well we can do empire meanly or we can do empire where we feel sad about it yes to explain express you know express our thought we can send thoughts and prayers exactly and that's no one ever mentions like hey maybe we should stop giving them lots of fucking bombs right yeah maybe we could uh not be allied with the apartheid genocidal state maybe intractable so okay so why are we here then like if it's intractable and like they are mean to each other and uh and it's a hatfield and the becoys why are we taking aside or trying to mediate any of it right and and it's it's disingenuous to say that it's that

because you are it's intractable because you are the one propping up the state that's why it's intractable it's intractable because you're doing it and you're a little sad about it and you know you can't liberal so you know to put on a bad face yeah exactly face and wear the kentie cloth and all exactly exactly you've got to you got to go through the motions of proving that you're a human being and then also explaining in the most chauvinistic way possible to women that like

human beings sometimes need to kill like this. And it's important that they do. Because at the end of the day it's that like scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds is like there is a general like imperialist mindset to liberals which is that like this

it's sad to say that my way of life is superior and needs to be exported and we need to destroy the Eastern way. Like that is their mindset. We're going to be talking more about the West Wing, but first we're going to take a quick break. Everyone follows Zach on

Paliside Nexus and on social media. Everyone stick around. We're going to be around back. And we're back. This is Bad Cold Noah. about the West Wing. It's the best wing here with Vince Mancini. How you doing Vince? Good. Good. And here with producer Adam. How you doing Adam? I'm doing great. Can't wait to live out with you guys. Dude, I'm very, I'm very excited. Adam, of all of the guests that we've had so far, Zach, Vince, you've actually seen the West Wing. Oh, I've extremely seen the West Wing. There was a time in my life, uh, when I was a just bog standard, uh, lib. Yeah. And I loved the West Wing and I loved Bill Maher. Well, yeah. Dude, you were like, you true, that is bog standard. Like,

like, I have to admit, like, like, I, like, I, like, I, like, I, like, I, like, I, like, I, like, like, I, like, I, I would have been like, oh, yeah, this all seems right. Like, I, like, I would have not taken this with any, 100%. Any jaundiced view on this. I'd be like, oh, yeah, it is like the hat filled in the McCoy's over there. A hundred percent. And I, And I absolutely watched the full run of the West Wing minimum 50 times through. Wow. It was at one point my comfort watch, like, just put it on in the background to the point that I would be speaking the dialogue along with it.

Very embarrassing. Oh, I love this. I mean, I definitely think, like, in the George W. Bush era, it was like, it was this sort of act of self-soothing that we did to watch a show where everybody's, like, very articulate it and good and a show that reinforces your view that you're very, very smart. Yeah, and the meritocracy works, and the problem with it is that, like, it's been hijacked by these, you know, the C students. Right, exactly. And it's, it's actually really funny, too, because there was no, uh, even then

at a, maybe the perfect time to have some sort of class analysis around that, liberals still couldn't fully be like you know the problem is is that we live in an oligarchy where the fucking former creator of the CIA's son is the president

because they share the same name you know there was no anti-imperialist analysis for libs it was just like this guy's an idiot yeah it was more like a nepo baby thing they should get a smart nepo baby yeah I mean it was like I think the

response was the system is not elitist enough because we don't like we don't reward we don't reward road scholars and uh and smart guys anymore it's just these these failed children we need someone to talk down to us in an erudite way yes yes yes yeah it is it is I think that is like that is classic you hit the nail on the head with the liberal mindset you know I mean and then you know Sorkin is like the peak elitist like he cannot go more than 10 minutes of screen time in anything without bringing up like Shakespeare or like a Shakespeare reference. Or Gilbert and Sullivan. Yeah. I think the title of this episode is like a Macbeth reference. The Burnham Wood. Yeah. I mean, it's just like it's so annoying. It's like it's

very it's elite and smarmy and also like incredibly middlebrow because it's like, oh, I'm a smart guy. How do I demonstrate my smartness? Oh, it's because I like Shakespeare. You know, it's like when when someone's like, oh, you're into film, what about this Kurosawa and Falini film? Like, it's just like the first, it's the first Google search results for things that a smart guy thinks, you know? Yes, yeah. And, you know, in terms of the way he writes, I mean, I think like, uh, ideology aside, he's a great screenwriter. He knows, he knows how to write a screenplay, knows how to write a teleplay. It's, uh, he, he, he, he knows how to write a teleplay. It's, uh, he, he, he, he, he, He knows pacing, that's for sure.

He knows pacing. He can make things compelling to watch. And so, you know, I- He knows pacing and he, but, but like his incredible level of SMARM, like, does not ever fail to come through. Like, you can tell watching this that this guy would be a terrible hang. Oh, 100%. This guy does not hang.

This guy lectures. This guy is like, he is, he is only spending enough time with you to, tell you you're a fucking idiot and then he walks away to you know whatever he does sleep with i mean i think that's like uh i mean this is i feel like this is the thing that separates like acclaimed middlebrow art from like actually great art is that great art like the storyteller comes in with like a question of some kind that they want answered and then like this sort of middle brow smarm that always is like the thing that wins awards it's like someone that has a really formed take and they're going to tell you about it and there's no there's no oh like there's no

there's no questioning that they're doing it's like they already know the answer and they just got tell it to you yeah there's no interpretation there's no analysis that you can do yeah yeah um the other thing we should bring up is this is season six right yeah yeah okay so this is post sork and exit so this is john wells from er running the show oh i love so it has become like a politics procedural type show. Yes. And you can really feel that in this episode. The second episode is much more just wishcasting a politics that works.

Yeah. And it is the sort of watered down like carbon copy of the Sorkan dialogue. Yes, yes. Yeah. And then like the whole storyline, the whole like heart attack sequence where I was just like, oh my god I fucking could not care less about this I mean granted like I haven't been watching the show up in this at this point I'm just dropping in Leo is the president's rock

yeah but I'm just like I don't care this this smacks of like late season sweeps week uh you know ratings boosting right here we got to kill this guy in Gaza something's gonna happen um I'm like oh we're any we're we're like seconds away from them bringing Ted McGinley in here for some reason so so uh Adam Ted McGinley plays a political, like, Sean Hannity-type guy. There you go. In early seasons.

Wow. Whenever a season, whenever a show's ratings are, like, flagging and it's been on for too long, they're like, are we got... Get Ted C on the blower. There's someone, like, pointing to his arm while Ted McGinley's warming up in the bullpen. Just so I'm clear, Ted McGinley is a guy from married with children? Yeah, yeah. He's Mr. Scream from...

Wayne's World. Right. He's the one who's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's Al Bundy's neighbor. Al Bundy's neighbor. He's the lead of the alpha Betas. How did you call Ted McGinley being in this? That's crazy. He's literally notorious for being the guy,

the actor that every show calls when it's like later seasons and they need like a guest star who like has some juice. Wow. Well. I didn't know that. I just like, I just imagine. That's crazy. I think something of a harbinger of demise, like, by the time you get to McGinley, you're, like, on the chopping block. Yeah, it's an expression of desperation.

Wow, that is crazy. So, Adam, you're saying that this season, end of season five, that's the last Sorkin. No, end of season four is the last Sorkin. Season five, John Wells starts running the show. Oh, okay. So I guess we owe Aaron Sorkin an apology. Five is the incredibly wobbly season. Six is where it starts to get its footing back.

Interesting. Wait, so you're saying that I've been making fun of Aaron Sorkin for no reason this whole time? Well, it's his blueprint. I mean, it is his style of dialogue. But, yeah, but is it his perspective? That's the interesting thing, is wondering whether or not it's his perspective on Israel, Palestine, or if it's, I mean, whoever's it is, it doesn't specifically matter that it's Sorkin, but it does put a little. little dent into this, you know, speaking of art, here's a little bit of art for everyone

that I did. We're doing my version of about a B story, a Balmer B story, a Draper D. story. Here's a Western Wing story. who hates the Palestinians There's no sugar A I know he thinks that he's a real good guy But he is one Now let's talk about the West Wing First they're season five

All right so we don't have to do the rest of it But if you like Sugar A You'll love the rest of that shitty song I did wonder if it was like When I was watching it I was like You know this isn't quite as like Zionist And bloodthirsty as I would have expected From Aaron Sorkin

And I wonder Maybe, like, if that accounts for that. Yeah. I mean, who knows? I will say that, like, the move to, you know, like, essentially publicly break up with an agent who expressed the idea that, like, people are being genocidal or, and, you know, like, that to me, I was just like, yeah, this all makes sense. And, you know, maybe it is, uh, part of it is also that I, I view him as essentially another David Mamet, where they, like, they both have this like, everyone's a fucking idiot, but me. And so. Absolutely. And this is very much of a piece with the political ideology of the show. Yeah. This was the sort of Michael Moore, uh, you know, like, we're the good guys and sort of the height of the Democrat rules, lawyering and morality policing of like, I think when the final

calculations are done, you'll see that we actually followed the rules better than anyone else. So everything should go our way because we're such good little hall monitors. Yes, yes. So let's talk about the Burnham Wood. It opens with President Martin Sheen. Sorry, I have a question. Do we know where this is supposed to be set?

because I thought that they said Aspen at one point, but then... Camp David, I think. So it is at Camp David. I know he's wearing the Camp David jacket. I assume Aspen is the name of one of their conference rooms at Camp David. That is the case, yeah. I was going to say, this does not look like Colorado, but yeah. Yeah.

So President Martin Sheen is telling both parties Israel and Palestine that there can be no peace without strong, secure Israel and a sovereign, viable state for the Palestinians. That's right, baby. We out here two states solutioning it. But, but, but. Also, the thing America never actually really advocated for and was only ever for like a canton for the, for the Palestinians. It's sort of, again, wishcasting America as the one true kind of moral and logical

fair dealer which is I mean you can actually tell from the line there can be no peace without a strong secure Israel so what do we get strong and secure or right to exist

or or a sovereign viable state for the Palestinians just barely able to exist viable is such a strange word to use because it's just like sovereign you know sovereign is like okay yeah sovereign viable immediately undercut sovereign like the idea of dead but still able to continue viable yeah exactly yeah it counts as sovereign at least to a minimal degree yeah just just

viable enough to count as sovereignty but it has to be a strong secure israel so already you know just in the language there two state solution looks a lot like our current situation so then general Locke from Lost tells the press that they bombed Syria the people who bombed Gaza the last

episode I guess were in Syria I don't know I didn't see the episodes in the intervening ones cool good nothing more comes of that was that Hamas you tell me Adam when the people they bombed in Syria. Who did the bombing in Gaza? We never find out. Do we find out? No, I think my memory is that, no, here's what happens. Spoiler for a 25-year-old TV show.

In the aftermath of this conference, Prime Minister Ben Yosef, I think, is Israeli prime minister, his plane is blown up by the PA. What? And that scuttles the peace process. If I'm thinking of the correct Israel-Palestine section of the show. Also, do we ever figure out why they were targeting an American SUV? Yeah. No, no, no, no, I'm asking.

So that seems like this is a new terrorism that I didn't even know about. What about the old terrorism? Who bombed Donna? I think the bombing of Donna is the PA makes a deal to hand over the people who did it. And there's some like rules lawyering over to whom they will hand the people over. and the head of the PA is like walled off in his compound under Israeli bombardment. I'm sort of going off hazy memory here. But it was the PA.

That's basically what I'm asking. So it was the PA who did the Donna bombing or the PA knew. I think it was supposed to be like a fringe of the PA that they said like, hey, we're sort of in league with these guys, but we'll hand. them over to you. It was a rogue element of them, which is why they can't be trusted to have control over there. You can't, yeah, yeah, you can't, you guys can't even control your own terrorists. Turns out we're going to have to keep doing what we're doing. Okay, so we're at Burnhamwood camp. The team is figuring out the Middle East. They're so smart. The question's on

the table. Who gets Jerusalem? The right of return. Tangible action against Hamas by the chairman of the PA Farad. And the president says they want to punt Jerusalem. So this whole episode is them not talking about who's going to take control of Jerusalem, but as Zach mentioned, that was the easiest part

of all the other peace processes. So, weird choice. We have CJ does a press conference, whatever. So we're back at the camp. There is I just want to show this scene

of the way in which the U.S. is kind of represented by this TV show as being the like hopeful middleman and just because I just I love this perspective because it is so dated

and so clearly wrong. Here it is. Why are any of us here? Once, Mr. Fart, you're right. My apologies, Mr. President. There's no progress to be made here. I should have never accepted your invitation. I just want to point out, why is he a German accent?

Isn't he just German? I was wondering what he was, what they were doing with? Yeah, okay. What do we do it? But here's President Martin Sheen telling him, guys, relax. Back down. No, no, we will not negotiate sovereignty in over the temple. The Dome of the Rock stands on the site where the Prophet Muhammad led it.

Both of you. Gentlemen, I have staked my personal credibility and the credibility of the United States on suggesting perhaps foolishly that the Israelis and the Palestinians are reasonable people who would like to at least try to resolve their differences peacefully. No one is going home after one hour of talks. I just like, guys, fellas, please, please, be reasonable. Like me. And you.

And also, would you look at these two screwball maroons? Yeah, yeah. Well, he's doing the things that they keep doing, which is like pretending that we couldn't use the insane amount of leverage that we have to stop any of this, like any, like, all we had to say, all we would have to say is like, okay, we're going to not give you, like, bombs anymore. And it would be like in a whole different conversation. Yeah.

I also, sorry, just one other thing that I love about the sork and. verse is the way that everybody is just like a gruff son of a bitch that likes dirty fucking jokes but they got a good heart and like the way that this plays out. Or a dumb female assistant who needs to have everything explained.

I think Alice and Janney gets like to be treated like a man because at every press conference it's like a hundred screaming journalists and her being like all right settle down dipshit. Here's what's going to happen. Believe it or not,

they ate some steak at the party and uh you you guys you dickheads are just going to have to live with that all right see you fucks later you know like it's so i don't know like the idea that the the white house press room is like this group of clamoring journalists who are all screaming over each other and uh and and the what do they call the press secretary the person who like calms them down with like a dirty joke it's like what i mean obvious wish wish casting but it's oh yeah 100% um so yeah i mean just in general the way that the uh the way the position of the show is you know what you were speaking earlier about like uh we could just stop funding them we could stop selling them weapons we we could do all we could just not be

involved they could like they could have like a normal discussion between two sides who one of a who we weren't just dumping tons of resources into one side right and and it like comes through in the show like how much it has accepted uh and and you know it's hard to say whether or not it's earnest uh like an earnest misunderstanding because they're not actually in the west way these guys are tv writers they're they're liberals um but uh you know it could be that they don't know But I just love writing characters and writing a narrative that essentially takes the viewer and goes like, you and I are the smartest people on Earth. Like that's why people I think like the show. It's as you're watching it.

It's the most audience privilege show out there. It's you are watching it and it's telling you like, look at these fucking idiots out there. They're stupid, not like you and me who could solve the Middle East. And it's such a bomb because like they're doing this at a time when like the U.S. government is in the middle of just like indiscriminately bombing like half of the Middle East. And it's sort of being like, yeah, but what if we were good and smart? Yeah. What if we did it and cried a little bit sometimes? Yeah. And and also, you know, the way in which this entire episode goes as like a negotiation between these two parties is so enraging because it keeps framing the Palestinians. and the Palestinian position as this immovable, irrational. And it's like, it frames both sides as this immovable, irrational, like, stubborn, like, wanting to hold on to either, you know, what they had or what they currently had. And there was something of an orthodoxy in the U.S. at the time.

And I remember specifically Bill Maher constantly saying that, you know, the Arabs, they're a back. people and they just don't understand how the world works because they only believe the Quran right they're they're living a 1300s lifestyle and and that was sort of the the feeling like these are savages right I mean he got fired from his I say it's always 19 you know 46 in in Palestine right American media because it's always got to be this sort of like dusty Casablanca yes like past time yes yes I mean, the fact that the leads of the last show were like the photo, like the romantic photo journal, I mean, it's the, it's Hemingway Gilhorn all over again where it's, you know, it's a romantic, romantic photojournalists in a, in like a cruel backwater and they find love. But like, I mean, the funny thing about Marr is that, like, he said all that about the Arab world. And then he got fired because he was like, and yet you still have to hand it to him. You can say what you want about a backward. they are but you got to hand it to him about 9-11 yeah you do have to hand it to the 9-11 hijack

it is really funny that like his origin story includes saying one cool thing yeah and getting in trouble for it and then spending the rest of his career saying the worst shit and getting rewarded for it um anyways uh so the real victim i think was phil donahue because i think he lost his show at the same time for yeah and phil donahue was based and remains based i believe but I don't know in terms of like the you know Palestinians or Palestine always

remaining 1946 you know forever in American media it's so funny the like continued even the like the liberal position on the show because like this show is essentially a series of like

fantasy shower arguments between two sides of your own personality and it's You can tell that by the kind of like things that are like arbitrary that they take for granted that serve as a baseline of their ideology. And one of those things is we all know that Arabs are stone throwing backwards people. So there's a scene between reasonable Jew and annoying Jew. And what is it?

What is it? That's Josh and Toby. Josh and Toby is I think like senior communications. director and Josh is deputy chief of staff yeah yeah yeah so whatever yeah I tuned out while you were explaining their job

but like there's a scene between the two of them in which they are they're arguing you know they're both being like the two different perspectives that American Jews have and it fucking it drives me fucking crazy.

Oh, is this the... My dad forgot to get his wallet when they let him out of Birkenau line? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, is it? It's the one where they are arguing over who's more Jewish. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Here we go.

Here's that scene. You're not starting to buy what he's selling, too. He's a terrorist with some legitimate grievances. Please. 1938, millions of men, women, and children running for their lives from gas chambers. tried to seek refuge in any country that would take them nobody would including america so they settle in the middle of a region that still believes in public stonings and harams Palestinians are the jews of the arab world it is so funny to have those two lines back to back

like so they settle in the middle of a region it's just like it's like just just super just going straight racist and then just every line of male dialogue in this series is a guy wiping coke off his nose, grinding his teeth, explaining his point of view to a sex worker. That's exactly. 100% true. And it's funny because it's... And another thing about my ex-wife.

Yeah. But just like, I also love the line, you know, you know, saying that Palestinians are the Jews of the Middle East is explaining, you know, they're getting in an argument about the fact that like the surrounding neighbor Arab states wouldn't take in the Palestinians after 48 when they were ethnically cleansed to be, you know, citizens of, you know, Jordan or Egypt or Lebanon or Syria. And the point he's making about like Arabs are the Jews of the Middle, or sorry, excuse me, Palestinians are the Jews of the Middle East.

it's a it's a funny thing to have like just that much perspective on it without ever being able to zoom out and be like oh also Arabs and Palestinians are the Jews of the West like you can't apply the same logic but take away the whole refugee status thing the fact that you are immediately dehumanizing them immediately racist to them the fact that you have tons of fucking space for people who do like rampant wanton murder of them but no tolerance for the fact that they might fight against their oppressor like I'm sorry but like how do you have just enough perspective to still blame the Middle East as the racist admit you know what I'm saying it's like you're saying the Jews of the Middle East as if Arabs in general are not treated

exactly the way that the Western world has treated Jews, you know, for centuries. Like, fuck off. Palestinians are really the Palestinians of Palestine. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I think that's a better way of putting it. Here's the rest of this conversation. Even with the bombs, Israel is the one place. It's okay to be Jewish.

And here. German Jews in the 20s were mighty comfortable. I love this. This isn't Germany. This is America. I'm like, KKK. We're you and I work in the White House to make sure. the Justice Department rips their

Jew-hating hoods off. I just absolutely love this like it's like the the attitude of the post-October 7th sobered up Jewish leftist you know like Israeli leftists

where it's just like you know before these attacks I thought that we were safe but now also the biggest lie is I think we got it worse than blacks throwing tight spots

rules. Oh yeah, I know. Being good at throwing football is a big lie. But there's, yeah, there's just something about the way that a lot of Jewish Americans do appropriation of like anti-blackness, of like any type of bigotry that exists where they're just like, hey, you know at any moment, they could kill us all, right? And it's you're always, you're always, you're only ever telling that to a black college student who's yeah and also the stealing valor of like you know who the real heroes of the black civil rights yeah right I'm Israel high yeah exactly um yeah so like this this whole episode is uh is dog shit um but but it has it has you know these moments that are are just i don't know they're like

Like, do I like this show on an ironic level or an unironic level? My favorite is, you know, this show loves walk and talks. Aaron Sorkin invented this like type of porn. And talk and throws, clearly. Yeah, talking throws. Top and shoot, talk and throw. Anything where someone can be playing a sport or walking around. They have to constantly be working, but in a very specific set.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Did you see, by the way, I'm sorry for the digression, but did you see the Barry Weiss attempt at a walk-and-talk the other day why did she need her hands in the frame and she's just like moving her hands like this and she's like we've got

Charlie Kirk's widow who's never been on TV before never done any press this is the first time they're trying to make it like Aaron Sorkin and she like can't do the walk and talk and she doesn't know what to do with her hands the whole time because she's a fucking alien dude like she's a weird little

meatball nerd And so, like, yeah, so there's walk and talk throughout this show, like, it's something Aaron's working is famous for. They tried to do the same thing with a game of half-court basketball in this episode, where they're playing basketball and solving the Middle East at the same time, and it is one of the most insane choices. I just, I had to, I had to, like, add NBA, NBA on NBC music for it. Here we go.

The Israelis will return the territories, but they want a military presence. House of the Palestinians don't get how it's going to be their house. If it comes furnace with Israeli tanks. Hey, you mentioned Germany? What about settlement? Israelis are hinting they'll abandon everything in God. I would love to see the real footage of all of these shots clanging on the rim. Martin Shee doing a completely undefended skyhook like in the middle of the half court.

Nobody literally no one's trying to block the president. that shit out of here. Oh, that's so great. You have to imagine there's no actual hoop while they're shooting and they're just PA's

catching all of these balls. There's a line of them. They keep going wild. Plan and exchange. Sounds promising. Dismaneling terror. Israelis want Farad to renounce terrorism but in Arabic on Al Jazeera

and they want more than just a promise to disarm a mosque. They wanted to happen before they leave. Right of return. Farad wants the right of return to apply to all Palestinians. The Israelis are understandably concerned about 3 million Palestinians moving back in Oh, look at the Bride side

Nobody shot anybody else the first day Sitting on the... I love this shot so much They got No shot of him shooting it But just of him taking credit for the shot Yeah We start small

For one small move is all we need to get things rolling Thanks, guys That's why he's the fucking president, man That's why he's the fucking president I love just the brain, the brain of the people who make this show. Because it is like, what would be the coolest shit a president could do ever? It's like, I don't know, play a game of pickup ball while solving the Palestinian crisis. He's swishing three pointers.

He's swishing three pointers. He's figuring out. The wettest jumper on President Bartlett. It just covered in fucking a sheen. That is why they call it, Martin. Yeah. So throughout the episode, there's this totally wishcasted fantasy give and take between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

There is one point, which is like, this is another point of like seeing where exactly the ideology of the show is the prime minister or sorry the chairman of the PA Farad who's played by a Palestinian 48er who is a Christian he is talking with like

some minister or whatever from Israel and they're having this conversation trying to like negotiate back and forth and at one point he made are really like a good point and they use it as like a dramatic like almost like a negative dramatic commercial break point here let me just let me just show this to you by we were being terrorized by zionist troops who were threatening to torch every arab village in the galilee accepted the partition plan in 47 not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee

The Palestinians were being massacred. Okay, so that's Ambassador Golit, the Israeli ambassador to the U.S., the severe woman with the dark bob. Yes, yes, yes, okay. Historians admit this. It was war, only three years after the Holocaust. If we had lost, there would have been another wholesale slaughter of Jews. If there is room for a million Russian Jews in Israel, why isn't there a room for Palestinians who simply wish to go home? dark dramatic music plays and they use this totally good and reasonable point for that forod makes to do a commercial break and to make you think oh fuck that's a good point though that sucks

it really is complicated dang that sucks like the show is Loki mad that he made a good point oh dog I don't have to watch some ads to fucking just mole that sometimes it do be like that

that's fucked up and this is what I what I love about liberal Zionism is that it's like so much of it is like being like you know what fine i acknowledge that this isn't fair and then acting like it is a totally moral and okay position to continue being unfair like like but we did kind of get here and take over so

right right it's kind of how it is but it's like but i will acknowledge all of these things the problem is is that uh these things are now like what it is the problem is the problem is finders keepers losers weepers so you're kind of that's you're supposed to weep but i'm sorry i'll weep too how about that yeah we can both weep together we can both weep together um and yeah you know there's scenes where between ferrad and that that lady with a bob where she basically admits that ethnic cleansing is okay and it's kind of like the same thing where it's just like she says that without um you know the ethnic cleansing, for lack of a better word, of the removal of the Arabs and there would have been no room for the Jewish state. And he takes that moment to be like, so it's okay that we were

ethnically cleansed to make room for the creation of Israel. And, you know, they use it as like sort of a, you know, a reason for him to stomp away and leave in anger. And I don't know, there's just the way that it's written, the way that it happens, it's just like. like once again the show continues to show what I think is a reasonable perspective of like the constant dispossession of these people but it just can't move itself but we can't do anything about it it can't do anything about it it can't move past the point where this is like yeah I'm sorry you make a very good point sometimes I think about this point when I'm sitting in my barracks yeah it's just

Honestly, it is just adding unfortunate to, like, a genocidal statement. It's like, it is unfortunate fact that the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in 48, but it needed to happen to establish a Jewish state, which unfortunately is necessary due to the Holocaust, centuries of anti-Semitism, and compensation for crimes against Jews. Sorry. That's it. I'm sorry. And, yeah, it just, the whole show presents Palestinians, a sore loser.

essentially throughout the entire thing. Yeah, and at one point, you know, they're saying that all the boys don't want to be doctors anymore. They just want to be martyrs. Everybody wants to be martyrs. All the kids want to be martyrs, you know? That's what you've got to find and talk to the reasonable ones. You've got to split them off from the unreasonable ones, have them shoot some skeet, and everything

will be technocratic in the end. The skeet shooting in this episode is so funny because it is just doing the Sabreman versus diaspora boy things i gotta play that scene it's just like you know what happens when a a weak liberal jew meets a strong i was watching that being like uh don't have them don't have them fall down with the gun i know don't do a full-on loony tunes wily coyote take where he where he arcs backward yeah oh no my duck bill is now on the back of my neck Alright, here's that sweet. How long were you in the army?

I still have. Every Israeli citizen is in. Oh, it hurts. I don't like it. The reserves. Your turn. You sure you know how to do this? I know back in Israel you play this game with cobra gunships, but I'm fine.

What? You may not want to rest like this. You have to stand, you know, more. Fair. Yeah, well, this is the way we do it. You have to leave the... of my god oh i fell backwards like oh you know me always going like lambs to the slaughter the gunpowder was irritating my throat oh yeah does did you cut a little bit out does he also

say like this is how we do it in queens no he said that he got that in there was just kind of quiet we stepped on it oh oh he's just shooting it's not shooting like a huge gun either it's like a regular skeet shotguns they're acting like this is a sniper rifle that killed Charlie Kirk it's like this is a fucking skit shooting

I love the casual diaspora boy nature of that you know I mean this is definitely coming from the liberal Hollywood writers who were like oh it would faint if I saw a gun yeah yeah exactly even shooting a

a skit makes me schmidt and just thinking about all the gunpowder I need my inhaler I need my inhaler okay I will go into the chamber this is how this is how

this is how they look at us I swear to God and it's like you know it's a running gag it's a self-effacing thing that a lot of American Jews do The problem I have with it is not the self-effacing nature of it. The problem is presenting the Israeli as competent.

That's a problem I have. I'm just like, what do we do it here? Oh, yeah, I'll show you, you know, you have to stand firm to shoot the skeet. You have to imagine there's a teenage girl that. Yeah, I was just like, let me shoot. Oh, no, the skeet, that baby somehow flew up there. I shouldn't have said pull and put the baby in there. that's my fault

that's mine that's my bad I keep putting a baby where the skits are all the clay pigeons have been replaced with babies all right we shouldn't have ordered the clay babies

oh anyways so that scene is fantastic and great and the way that this all fucking ends beyond the actual like storylines within fucking West Wing. This old

man is like Leo, his president, Charlie Sheen's dad's rock has a heart attack and stuff. I don't care about all that. Yeah, I was like, please die quickly. Yeah, just get it all over. You're getting in the way

of the technocratic solution. The sound that Leo makes when he has the heart attack is in my memory is and it is burned in my mind and I will see if I can put it in afterwards because I believe I did it perfectly yeah no so that that happens

but no I want to talk about where this ends up my favorite scene because it ends up with them almost having a deal like they agree on you know how to partition Jerusalem doesn't really matter my favorite scene that kind of like shows the entire ethos of the show the perspective of the show is when you know chairman ferrod is speaking with lady soldier with the shitty bangs um and lady sheep dog lady sheep dog yes lady sheep dog yes deputy national security advisor yeah yeah yeah i didn't i didn't listen and uh i refuse to learn and he is talking about how his family was, you know, ethnically cleansed from Gaza. And I just love

the libness of this scene in which they're trying to come to an agreement on the right of return. And she's trying to explain to him that, you know, it can't be the full, you know, unrestricted right of return. Here is that scene. I still remember the view of the valley from the roof of our house, the smell of the palm grenades, the sound of children playing in our orchard, the home of my father, of my aunts, my aunts, my uncles, they are now art galleries and bed and breakfasts. Will I get to go home, Miss Harper? No, sir, probably not. does that worth not having any home at all? I love that because she's just like, no, take it or leave it. Yeah, I thought, I really thought she was going to say, can we ever truly go home? Can any of us ever truly go home again?

I mean, what is home other than where the heart is? My home has gone too. They turned my neighborhood, uh, diner. It's a Starbucks now. I can't go home either. So, you know, I'm kind of in the same boat here. We all got problems, sir. But I love the recognition of what he's saying there, you know, which is essentially talking about the dispossession of Palestinians and, you know, in his specific family and whatnot. And they're kind of like, oh, geez, I know it sucks to say, but no. You probably won't be able to go home.

No. But look, dude. But look, but at least we're not going to kill you. But yeah, but it's either that or fuck you forever. You've got to die. Kind of the choice. I know that sucks. I know that hurts.

I know that deep inside it's just like, I know it's wrong. It makes me sad. But what the fuck you're going to do about it? It makes me sad to say so, but. But fuck you. It's either this or I've got to kill you. I don't know. Hey, if it were up to me.

and then she doesn't finish the sentence. Also, doesn't she tell her fellow American political cohort, like, let me talk to Farad, I think he's into me, or something like that? Oh, no, I, oh, yeah, she does. She does say something along the same thing. Like, yeah, I think he likes me or something like that. You know how, you know how Arabs be. But that attitude of, you know, it is what it is.

is like throughout this whole fucking thing you've got like president uh charlie sheen's dad um is like he's talking to ferrod as well and he is doing this entire fucking thing where he's just like hey listen do you people want to keep being oppressed no then you got to accept this fucking deal which further dispossesses you and further and further solidifies your dispossession and you know yeah it it really is like listen the last guy wanted to give you nothing I'm willing to give you nothing plus that much yeah yeah take it or leave it yeah and then he goes give you nothing plus a little massage you want a little miss a little neckie you know I'm not going to do fucky-sucky no one is ever going to do fucky suck I'll run my fingers through the back

of your your scalp hair um but yeah like This is that scene between Charlie. Anyone led you to believe that we could agree to anything less. Do you really want to see your people oppressed for another generation? Shared custody of the city in its holy sites. Why do you continue to support Israel? Hatred of America grows because of this. I'm not just in the Muslim countries.

I've done more to support you in the Palestinian cause than anyone who's ever said in my chair. There isn't a single member of your delegation who doesn't think turning down the UN offer of a Palestinian home land in 1947 was lunacy, a colossal mistake. Please do not make the same mistake today. It's on you, dog. It's on you. I know I just totally punted on the completely reasonable question of why do I continue to support Israel? Yeah.

This is not about me. Look, we're not asking questions about me. This is about you. I'm not on trial here, sir. No, listen. bro you know how many people in your own cohort if you ask them about 47 they'll all say the same thing uh if only we had uh if only we had agreed to the u.n resolution you know 181 or whatever the partition plan then certainly the Israelis would be living peacefully side by side with us

I'm sure they all to a man think that Just the rewriting of history of You know to present at any point A point in which Israel was like You know, Dainu When it came to fucking like how much land they had You know, it would be enough You know

But they're like straight up They're straight up lying It's like this constant like victim blamey shit that the show, you know, goes through pains to portray as, like, tragic but true. And it's just like, it kills me to watch this, especially from a 2025 perspective, where I'm just like, at what point is anyone, you cannot look at this fucking, like, narrative as being in any way realistic. Yeah, the Israelis really, man, they're trying their best out here, but these goddamn, you know, these motherfuckers, their necks are really putting a show. strain on my boots

I can't I can't live in this house that I stole with them without hearing this constant wailing it's like quiet down so I can enjoy this nice Airbnb that's right he's like saying to that woman you know

my my ancestral home is now a fucking is an Airbnb and fucking my neighborhood's got like an art gallery instead of the house where I grew up and she's just like sucks to me you're up

oh god and then it ends with the old man river they can't give it back to you now it's it's appreciated in value too much exactly you're gonna pay me for it so yeah that whole you know you know episode storyline whatever ends with the heart attack thing

we don't know what happens and it looks like they're about to have a peace deal which Adam you just informed me they fuck up somehow. Oh, that's right because the damn terror. Because they assassinated the Israeli Prime Minister. Yes, yeah. Dang it. A thing that has happened.

Yeah. It's like It was the Arabs. No, the twist this time is that it was the Arabs they killed the Israel. Right, yeah, exactly. Not like in real life. Not in real life when Rabin was killed by fucking right wing Israeli fucking psychopath. Yeah, I mean, what are we

doing? I love this. You have to do it that way you have to create a world in which the Arabs did it to themselves Palestinians are their own worst enemy since 2004 you can never hand it to them unless you want to end up like Bill Maher you know that's right that's right exactly and so that's the episode and that's both of those episodes of West Wing uh let's see final thoughts uh Vince what do you think of the West Wing final thoughts um I really like it I'm a big fan of of technocratic solutions and you know after 50 years i just have to say one option would be to get over it such a good point such a good point producer adam uh final thoughts west wing best wing

uh just a deeply embarrassing thing that i used to absolutely love uh and it really aged like milk yeah it really did it really did hey look we all used to love things that are embarrassing to love That's just how it happens. And at the very least, we got to know more about the West Wing and use you as a resource. And I thank you for that. And I think our guest as well, Zach, Zachry Foster, who is incredible. Please follow his work. Vince, where can people find you and find your work and your podcasts?

Patreon.com slash frotcast for me and Matt's podcasts. You probably have heard them. you can find me on a substack Vincemancini.substack.com writing about movies and whatnot. He's a fucking hilarious film critic. You're going to love him. And also our podcast together about TV is great.

I mean, if you like this episode, maybe I shouldn't use that as an example. Even if you didn't like this episode, the ones that we do are better. They're better. Thank you for coming on. All of the links will be in the description for Vince's stuff. as well as Zach's Patreon.com slash badassbara.

Baddazbara at gmail.com for your questions, comments, and concerns. All right, everyone. Thanks again so much for listening. And until next time, from the river to the sea. Sorry, I was trying to come up with one in the moment. I got it. From the river to the sea. I never learned his name, so I'm going to continue calling him.

president, Charlie Sheen. That wasn't good. I'll do a better one. And until next time, or unless you have one, Adam. I need one second. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Please. All right, everyone. Thanks again. So much for listening. And until next time, I'll do it this time.

From the river to the sea. Fuck a movie. I like TV. Yay. I don't know, guys. Aaron Sorkin is a TV writer Zionist who hates the Palestinians. he's a real good guy but he is swine now let's talk about the west wing talking season five episode 21 so hummus injures Donna while she's back finding in Gaza with her roadside

we flashed back to a meeting with a soldier who's feeling that his union kill kids But instead of On indictment The show's more Syphathetic towards him What the fuck bitch That's a bullshit

Give it Oh Perrin's sorkin He's a shrieken You're a fucking nerd He always writes The wrong He always rights

He always rights He always rights Just the fuck up bitch Just the fuck up bitch Aaron Sorkin is a TV writer Zionist who hates the Palestinians. I know he thinks that he's a real good guy, but he is why. Now let's talk about the West Wing. Now it's the next season, the president calls the meeting.

He's supposed to meet and pretends he's a middleman. As if the U.S. has no power, liberals love to faint impotence. You're the fucking president. Why are you pretending like you had no stake in this? You control whether or not the Israelis got weapons and you're like, oh, come on, guys, can't read the jury? Can we agree? You're the fucking, you can stop it.

Just admit you don't want it to stop. He always writes like he's on cocaine gaming. He always writes like his, man's playing. Every morning there's a TV show I'm watching and then I am singing some song now. I'm making up these lyrics off the top of my head and now I gotta do the horridis later Yo, bitch, it's me, L.A. Matt.

Flap, clap in that ass with that, yeah. And watching TV shows with the homies talk about West Wing and shit. Pugin' dick, seven, yeah. Fuck Aaron Sorkin, man. This shit sucks. Uh, and, uh, I'm not gonna... I'm not going to watch anything else he does.

Until he admits that he's wrong and he's been wrong and he says free Palestine. And you know what? Offer support to Hamas and the Al-Qasan brigades. He does that, then I'll watch his next bullshit.